#clojure – 2015-08-17

2015-08-17

00:00	TEttinger	,(map inc [1 2 3])
00:00	clojurebot	(2 3 4)
00:00	TEttinger	,(map first {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3})
00:00	clojurebot	(:a :b :c)
00:00	TEttinger	,(map inc #{1 2 3})
00:00	clojurebot	(2 4 3)
00:01	TEttinger	important stuff real fast! the set is not in the order it came in for a reason!
00:01	slaterr	set is a binary tree with just a key I guess
00:02	palinkas	justin_smith: the only problem I can see with the sandboxing is that it won't even allow to create namespaces
00:02	justin_smith	palinkas: ahh, you should check out which sanbox clojurebot uses
00:02	TEttinger	sets and hash-maps are unordered by default. the order you get stuff out when you convert them to seqs, as map does and as most fns in clojure that work with collections do, is determined by a lot of factors but can't be relied on
00:02	TEttinger	that's why there are sorted-map and sorted-set
00:03	TEttinger	,(map inc (sorted-set 1 2 3))
00:03	clojurebot	(2 3 4)
00:03	TEttinger	1 2 3 is already sorted, this actually sorts it again
00:03	TEttinger	,(map inc (sorted-set 1 2 3 0 -1))
00:03	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4)
00:03	slaterr	sorted-set = binary tree, set = hash table?
00:05	TEttinger	fairly close. sorted data structures use a (not sure if binary) tree for the sorting. I'll be perfectly honest, I have never used a hashtable.
00:05	TEttinger	sets ensure uniqueness, not ordering
00:05	TEttinger	that's their most important attribute
00:06	slaterr	yeah
00:06	TEttinger	sorted-sets ensure uniqueness and ordering by sorting (you can specify how to sort them too, so not limited to ascending order)
00:06	justin_smith	hash-sets use a fancy kind of tree optimized for immutable sets that do structural sharing
00:06	TEttinger	radix 32 hash-array-mapped trie?
00:07	TEttinger	"now you know why we don't talk about the internals"
00:07	justin_smith	TEttinger: the gotcha is that you can use an arbitrary sorting key, but if two things sort as equal by your function, then one of them will disappear
00:08	TEttinger	occasionally when you see stuff that draws from clojure, but isn't written in clojure, you may find people implementing HAMTs. I think we're all thankful that it's been done for us in clojure.
00:11	TEttinger	good thing to point out early on: you also have access to mutable, fixed-length, single-typed arrays and java's mutable data types in clojure. typically you only reach for those tools in the toolbox if you need to call java code that expects them, or if you have found a particular spot in your code that drastically needs performance and is a good fit for a mutable algorithm.
00:11	TEttinger	otherwise, those are not commonly used, because you lose the advantages of immutable code for reasoning about what something will have as its value
00:13	TEttinger	(also, even in the latter case, there are tools clojure has that let you create a temporarily mutable copy of a clojure data structure, mutate away, and return the mutated copy. don't worry about that stuff yet, but just know that clojure probably has the tools you need)
00:15	TEttinger	macros can be super useful but also can be hard to write. I think I have written between 2 and 3 macros total, you can go really far without needing them, and when you do need them, justin_smith loves writing small ones :)
00:15	justin_smith	haha
00:16	justin_smith	small macros as a service h-something
00:17	TEttinger	probably the most important thing you can do to learn clojure is to keep experimenting. it helps to learn more and more of the standard lib, which has a huge amount of useful functions for many, many common needs.
00:17	TEttinger	hey Olajyd!
00:21	palinkas	,(ns test)
00:21	clojurebot	nil
00:22	palinkas	,(def a "something")
00:22	clojurebot	#'sandbox/a
00:22	justin_smith	palinkas: any two commands are not in the same eval context
00:22	justin_smith	palinkas: maybe try using do
00:22	justin_smith	,(do (ns 'test) (def a "OK"))
00:22	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Symbol"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.ClassCastException\n :message "clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Symbol"\n :at [clojure.lang.RT$1 invoke "RT.java" 239]}]\n :trace\n [[clojure.lang.RT$1 invoke "RT.java" 239]\n [sandbox$eval79 invokeStatic "NO_SOURCE_FILE" 0]\n [sandbox$eval79 invoke "NO_S...
00:22	justin_smith	hmm
00:22	justin_smith	,(do (ns test) (def a "OK"))
00:22	clojurebot	#'test/a
00:23	palinkas	and also I guess once the request finished, the sandbox is destroyed
00:24	justin_smith	,test/a
00:24	clojurebot	"OK"
00:24	justin_smith	palinkas: it has a set lifetime, but it isn't immediately destroyed
00:25	palinkas	the question is: can I run two sandbox side-by-side, without conflicting with each other?
00:26	justin_smith	as far as I know, yes
00:26	justin_smith	I have not personally tried it though
00:27	palinkas	any way to try it out?
00:27	palinkas	I assume that clojurebot here has only a single sandbox
00:28	justin_smith	palinkas: I thought that it was using a sandbox lib, but maybe it has one in its source...
00:28	palinkas	https://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot
00:28	justin_smith	palinkas: here's the subproject https://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/tree/master/clojurebot-eval
00:29	Bronsa	lazybot uses clojail, clojurebot uses an internal one AFAIK
00:29	justin_smith	Bronsa: yeah, he was looking at clojail but found it too restrictive
00:30	slaterr	TEttinger appreciate all the pointers
00:32	TEttinger	no prob
01:16	weebz	I'm trying to do the following typecast in Clojure, but I can't get it to actually cast
01:16	weebz	((JavascriptExecutor)driver).executeScript("return $('.cheese')[0]")
01:16	weebz	(cast JavascriptExecutor driver) returns a FirefoxDriver and not a JavascriptExecutor
01:28	hiredman	that is not how casting works
01:29	hiredman	casting (for java, and pretty much everywhere) isn't an operation that changes the value being cast, it just tells the compiler to treat the object differently
01:30	hiredman	so for dynamic langues (like clojure) casting doesn't really do anything
01:31	hiredman	and, even if does do something, it can't / won't change the dynamic type of an object
02:37	luxbock	how do I define a test.check generator that chooses elements from a collection I provide while shrinking so that it chooses the earlier elements more often?
02:37	luxbock	the doc of gen/one-of says "Shrinks toward choosing an earlier generator...", but I'm not seeing it
02:37	clojurebot	Huh?
02:38	luxbock	(frequencies (gen/sample (gen/one-of [(gen/return 1) (gen/return 2) (gen/return 3)]) 10000)) returns {3 3362, 2 3296, 1 3342}
02:43	Olajyd	Hi TEttinger :)
02:45	Olajyd	TEttinger, I’m a junior cloure dev, I hope u’ll be available for more problem solving :)
02:45	Olajyd	Hey justin_smith
02:46	TEttinger	all right, good stuff
02:55	nakiya	guys, any of you accessing Facebook graph api with clojure? What is your setup?
03:11	nakiya	,(doc get)
03:12	clojurebot	"([map key] [map key not-found]); Returns the value mapped to key, not-found or nil if key not present."
04:01	clj123	jdbc hive parameterized queries like ["create table as select col1, col2 from table1 where col1=?" "blah"] don't work. Is there any issue with jdbc.clj or hive ?
04:39	luxbock	I wonder if there's a reason for why assoc-in shouldn't take arbitrary amount of key-vectors and values instead of just one pair
04:43	gilliard	luxbock: I don't think there is http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1771
05:02	crocket	How do I create a simple standalone command line application in clojure without leiningen?
05:02	crocket	I want to use clojure as a replacement of bash.
05:04	schmir	crocket: better take a look at boot: https://github.com/boot-clj/boot/wiki/Scripts
05:05	crocket	schmir, Is that it?
05:06	luxbock	crocket: http://clojure.org/repl_and_main
05:14	crocket	"java -cp clojure.jar clojure.main /path/to/myscript.clj"
05:14	crocket	Does "java -cp clojure.jar clojure.main /path/to/myscript.clj" execute -main in myscript.clj?
05:15	luxbock	I think so but I have never tried it
05:15	crocket	It executes nothing.
05:17	crocket	I saved http://dpaste.com/00MPG39 as doit.clj, and "java -cp ~/Apps/clojure-1.7.0.jar clojure.main doit.clj" executes nothing.
05:20	TEttinger	crocket: -main is only used by lein I think. you would need a toplevel call to (-main) most likely? not sure how it handles additional command line args
05:27	d0ky	hello i would know how to make https communication i found less-awful-ssl and by readme i have done the first test-ssl done but next part is to create ssl-context and i dont know how to generate to ca.crt ... third certificate of ssl-context ... as you can see here https://github.com/aphyr/less-awful-ssl
05:33	crocket	TEttinger, I don't know a way
05:33	crocket	how do I call -main?
05:33	crocket	Ah shit
05:34	crocket	I guess I have to -main directly in the source code.
05:34	crocket	I was right.
05:35	TEttinger	(-main)
05:35	TEttinger	it's a fn you defined
05:36	crocket	How do I get access to the list of arguments?
05:37	crocket	Oh, there is command-line-args
05:37	crocket	Not cool
05:37	TEttinger	good find
05:37	TEttinger	-main is a lein thing I think, it sets up the java-like main method
05:38	crocket	Anyway, it is relatively fast to load a .clj file via clojure.jar
05:38	TEttinger	the plain clojure.main method is uh different
05:41	crocket	Is clojure.java.shell/sh synchronous or asynchronous?
05:45	kwladyka	ah... how it was called... functions which one the same input give always the same output?
05:45	kwladyka	oh pure functions
05:49	crocket	boot-clj seems reasonable
05:51	crocket	TEttinger, (apply -main command-line-args)
05:51	TEttinger	ah there you go!
05:52	Olajyd	HI, TEttinger
05:52	crocket	How do I iterate over two seqs of the same length?
05:52	crocket	or multiple seqs
05:52	Olajyd	TEttinger, how do I serach for a particular character in a string?
05:52	crocket	Oh, seqs sounds like "sex".
05:52	TEttinger	Olajyd: do you want first match?
05:53	Olajyd	Yup
05:53	oddcully	.indexOf
05:53	Olajyd	oh more of a global search in a string
05:53	TEttinger	the regex functions like re-find will tell you if the character has been found, but not where it is.
05:53	Olajyd	oh hi odcully :)
05:53	TEttinger	(inc oddcully)
05:53	lazybot	⇒ 15
05:54	TEttinger	,(.indexOf "alphabet" \p)
05:54	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "No matching method found: indexOf for class java.lang.String"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.IllegalArgumentException\n :message "No matching method found: indexOf for class java.lang.String"\n :at [clojure.lang.Reflector invokeMatchingMethod "Reflector.java" 80]}]\n :trace\n [[clojure.lang.Reflector invokeMatchingMethod "Reflector.java" 80]\n [clojure.lang.Reflector invokeInst...
05:54	TEttinger	,(.indexOf "alphabet" "p")
05:54	clojurebot	2
05:54	TEttinger	so that can take a single-letter string or a multiple-letter one
05:54	TEttinger	,(.indexOf "alphabet" "bet")
05:54	clojurebot	5
05:57	Olajyd	aite Tettinger, thanks
05:58	TEttinger	thanks to oddcully too!
05:58	crocket	Is (map list list-2 list-2) an ok way to zip several sequences?
05:59	crocket	(map list list-1 list-2 ...)
05:59	TEttinger	yeah, or mapcat, crocket
05:59	crocket	,(doc mapcat)
05:59	TEttinger	depending on what you want for output
05:59	clojurebot	"([f] [f & colls]); Returns the result of applying concat to the result of applying map to f and colls. Thus function f should return a collection. Returns a transducer when no collections are provided"
05:59	TEttinger	,(mapcat list (range 10) (range 20))
05:59	clojurebot	(0 0 1 1 2 ...)
06:00	TEttinger	,(mapcat list (range 10) (range 10 20))
06:00	crocket	This is not ideal
06:00	clojurebot	(0 10 1 11 2 ...)
06:00	TEttinger	,(map list (range 10) (range 10 20))
06:00	clojurebot	((0 10) (1 11) (2 12) (3 13) (4 14) ...)
06:00	crocket	,(doc zipmap)
06:00	clojurebot	"([keys vals]); Returns a map with the keys mapped to the corresponding vals."
06:02	TEttinger	,(zipmap (range 5) (range 10 15))
06:02	clojurebot	{0 10, 1 11, 2 12, 3 13, 4 14}
06:03	crocket	zipmap doesn't scale beyond 2
06:03	crocket	,(map list [1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9])
06:03	clojurebot	((1 4 7) (2 5 8) (3 6 9))
06:03	TEttinger	yeah
06:03	crocket	,(doc vector)
06:03	clojurebot	"([] [a] [a b] [a b c] [a b c d] ...); Creates a new vector containing the args."
06:03	crocket	,(map vector [1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9])
06:03	clojurebot	([1 4 7] [2 5 8] [3 6 9])
06:03	TEttinger	,(mapv vector [1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9])
06:03	crocket	,(map seq [1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9])
06:03	clojurebot	[[1 4 7] [2 5 8] [3 6 9]]
06:03	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (3) passed to: core/seq--4116>
06:04	TEttinger	list is the fn used to create seqs, oddly -- seq converts a collection to a seq if non-empty, returns nil otherwise
06:10	crocket	http://dpaste.com/1R82TJ9 hangs
06:10	crocket	http://dpaste.com/1R82TJ9 hangs on line 15.
06:10	crocket	why?
06:10	clojurebot	because that's not how macros work
06:15	Olajyd	TEttinger, say after getting the index of the character in the string, we want to replace that character with another character?
06:15	TEttinger	crocket: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure.java.shell/sh#example-542692d6c026201cdc3270e7
06:15	TEttinger	Olajyd: off the top of my head, I don't have an answer, but there is likely something in the Java String API.
06:16	Olajyd	I’m not sure it this is the right approach but this is what I have in mind (assoc "alphabet" (.indexOf "alphabet" “p”) "s")
06:17	TEttinger	that sounds like a better fit for regexes.
06:17	TEttinger	,(clojure.string/replace "alphabet" #"p" "s")
06:17	clojurebot	"alshabet"
06:18	TEttinger	that does all of the occurences though.
06:18	TEttinger	,(clojure.string/replace "alphabet" #"a" "o")
06:18	clojurebot	"olphobet"
06:18	TEttinger	,(.replaceFirst "alphabet" "a" "o")
06:18	clojurebot	"olphabet"
06:19	TEttinger	here's that documentation https://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/lang/String.html#replaceFirst(java.lang.String,%20java.lang.String)
06:19	crocket	TEttinger, My code hangs and does nothing.
06:19	TEttinger	crocket: for 1 minute after when it may have exited?
06:20	TEttinger	if that's the case, it's related to using futures without calling a specific function to shutdown agents
06:21	TEttinger	(I also don't know if ffmpeg is getting the args it wants)
06:21	TEttinger	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure.core/future#example-542692c9c026201cdc326a7b
06:22	crocket	TEttinger, If I execute shell/sh in REPL, it works fine.
06:23	TEttinger	I wonder if it's getting bad args somehow, like just "-" which some programs interpret as "read from stdin until you get an EOF"
06:25	crocket	what
06:25	TEttinger	wondering if ffmpeg is, in the program version, receiving the wrong args
06:26	crocket	As you can see on https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/java/shell.clj#L128 , futures are resolved.
06:26	TEttinger	try printing command-line-args
06:26	crocket	command-line-args is not used yet.
06:27	TEttinger	you saw the line above that, right?
06:27	TEttinger	exit-code (.waitFor proc)
06:28	crocket	Somehow shell/sh just hangs.
06:28	TEttinger	if ffmpeg isn't returning, it will hang
06:29	TEttinger	3:30 AM. g'night
06:29	crocket	ok
06:32	crocket	You're right
06:32	crocket	shell/sh hangs for some reason.
06:32	crocket	ffmpeg returns
06:43	drwin	I have defined a defrecord, and I want to implement my own IPrintWithWriter, how to override defrecord's default one?
06:44	crocket	TEttinger2, shutdown-agents solves the waiting problem.
06:56	crocket	oh
06:56	crocket	^"[Ljava.lang.String;" (into-array cmd)
06:56	crocket	What is this?
06:56	crocket	A type hinting?
07:10	opqdonut	crocket: yes
07:11	opqdonut	[Ljava.lang.String; is to the jvm what java.lang.String[] is to java, i.e. an array of Strings
07:11	crocket	How confusing
07:12	opqdonut	yeah the syntax could be better
07:28	varnie	good day.
07:29	varnie	newbie here. can you help me to figure out why ":require some.lib" doesn't work in case I use it directly in myProgram.clj file and run it through lein repl using (load-file ...)? But it works if I put the whole library name into that file and remove that ":require"? I can provide a sample of code I am talking about.
07:31	varnie	it gives me "CompilerException java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate ..." error
07:36	snowell	Are you running the lein repl from the directory that contains the project.clj? That's the way to ensure that dependencies are loaded on the classpath
07:40	varnie	hmm, no, but if I remove that :require it works fine. I provide the full path to the project.clj in (load-file ...)
07:43	varnie	well, here're two samples, the first one works, the second one does not:
07:43	varnie	1) http://pastebin.com/xQZtxFnG
07:43	varnie	2) http://pastebin.com/aJdYku9n
07:44	snowell	Honestly I've never used (load-file)
07:44	varnie	huh, okay. ;)
07:46	snowell	What if you try this: http://pastebin.com/daE0VCDv
07:46	varnie	then I have the same error
07:46	snowell	Taking :require out of the ns and having it as its own statement
07:46	varnie	wait, I'll rerun lein repl and try again...
07:47	varnie	same problem.
07:48	schmir	varnie: why don't you use require instead of load-file?
07:48	snowell	I find it hard to believe that specifying the full namespace of the function works but having a (require) doesn't
07:49	snowell	Not saying I don't believe you :)
07:49	varnie	schmir, what do you mean?
07:49	varnie	say, I want to test out my little function, which is written in foo.clj, it (that function) requires some libraries. where should I 'require' them?
07:50	varnie	I suppose it would be sane to require them in that file.
07:50	varnie	why not?
07:50	schmir	varnie: using load-file is unusual. normally you define your functions inside a .clj file for a single namespace and load that file with (require my-namespace.foo) instead of load-file
07:50	varnie	schmir, ah, I didn't know. Thank you.
07:52	varnie	schmir, can you please show how should my code snippet look then?
07:54	schmir	http://pastebin.com/aJdYku9n looks fine (besides the namespace should have at least 2 components...i.e. it should be something like foo.core)
07:55	schmir	in your REPL, you can then (require 'foo) and either call foo/print-extension or switch to the namespace with (in-ns 'foo)
07:55	schmir	varnie: are you using an IDE?
07:56	varnie	no, I do not.
07:56	varnie	FileNotFoundException Could not locate foo__init.class or foo.clj on classpath: clojure.lang.RT.load (RT.java:443)
07:56	varnie	I should run lein repl in the directory where my clj file is?
07:56	schmir	where your project.clj is
07:56	schmir	varnie: did you create a project?
07:56	varnie	I have only one file, get-extension.clj.
07:56	varnie	no
07:57	schmir	ok. that explains a lot!
07:57	varnie	that's exactly what I am trying to understand ;)
07:57	varnie	is it possible to have a single clj file without project?
07:58	schmir	yes, you can then use load-file to load the file from the REPL :)
07:58	schmir	but you shouldn't do that
07:58	varnie	okay, then why the second example does not work: http://pastebin.com/aJdYku9n ?
07:58	schmir	(at least not now, since you said your a beginner)
07:59	schmir	I think load-file doesn't like the namespace declaration
07:59	gjrig	varnie: for sure. The main reason people use fancy projects & build toold (if you ask me) is because the line to run a single .clj file looks ugly. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7656523/how-can-i-run-a-clj-clojure-file-i-created has good answers
07:59	schmir	varnie: you really should set up a project
07:59	varnie	is there any way I can use "short cut/alias" for that long library name in my second example?
08:00	varnie	I understand what you guys say, but I find it a bit awkward that I have to create project only for testing some simple function...
08:01	schmir	varnie: without the namespace declaration the require looks like (require '[org.apache.commons.io.FilenameUtils :as FileNameUtils])
08:01	gjrig	Hi! I'm writing a program where users will be able to add plugins, which are also written in Clojure. I would like to have some sort of security, so that users can't do bad things like write to disk, run a shell or call arbitrary Java code. Is there some way to ONLY expose functions that have no side effects? Then their plugins can be pure functions, and I can be sure no malicious code is run
08:02	varnie	schmir, then I have another error: "'Found lib name 'org.apache.commons.io.FilenameUtils' containing period with prefix 'quote'. lib names inside prefix lists must not contain periods"
08:03	varnie	oh, wait...
08:03	oddcully	wouln't an import here more appropriate?
08:03	oddcully	s/here/& be/
08:04	varnie	no matter what I try, I end up with "CompilerException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException ..."
08:05	schmir	varnie: you really want a dedicated project, since you use apache commons
08:05	varnie	okay, thank you all.
08:05	schmir	varnie: boot scripts may be another option: https://github.com/boot-clj/boot/wiki/Scripts
09:34	justin_smith	varnie: that's not a namespace, that's a class
09:35	varnie	yup
09:35	justin_smith	so you've sorted it out then
09:37	justin_smith	varnie: the main reason to use lein or boot (or even maven) is to set up your class path, once your dependencies grow beyond a few items
09:38	varnie	justin_smith, do you agree that for my purpose I should create a new project?
09:39	justin_smith	varnie: it depends, if you only have the one dependency, you might be able to get by without a tool like lein, but the more deps you have, the easier it is to just use lein
09:40	varnie	I see.
09:40	justin_smith	just don't assume that "not having a project" is in any way simpler - it really isn't. It just means you have to do all the classpath and configuration stuff it could do for you, by hand.
09:42	varnie	yes, that was my initial misunderstanding.
09:50	d0ky	hello has anybody experience with https ? i try to setup it using less-awful-ssl but do not know to generate ca.crt used in this readme at ssl-context https://github.com/aphyr/less-awful-ssl any help please ?
09:51	xemdetia	d0ky, the idea of the ca.crt is you getting it signed from someone else
09:51	xemdetia	if you don't care about it being valid to your browser just use a self signed cert
09:51	xemdetia	(in that list of instructions)
09:52	tdammers	or, the middle ground, create your own CA and install its cert on all the devices you care about, via a trusted out-of-band channel
09:52	tdammers	then you can use that CA to sign your own certs
09:52	xemdetia	either way that instruction list is needlessly confusing for a one-off test
09:52	d0ky	but i did all what was in instructions and worked only test-ssl but ca.cert was not generated
09:53	xemdetia	I assume it is from that CA.pl file
09:55	d0ky	i so should i generate one more certificate as it is in that instructions ? because when i looked here http://immutant.org/documentation/current/apidoc/guide-web.html#h5315 there is also ca.crt but i have no experience with ssl and that library needs 3 files
09:56	d0ky	especially function ssl-context not that library
09:59	xemdetia	d0ky, do you need your certificates to be things you can validate
09:59	xemdetia	it's easier to just self-sign a cert from the keystore
10:00	xemdetia	keytool -genkey -keyalg RSA -alias selfsigned -keystore keystore.jks -storepass password -validity 360 -keysize 2048
10:00	xemdetia	and just use the first option
10:00	d0ky	many thanks :) i will try it
10:00	xemdetia	(from the immutant docs)
10:12	Guest58141	\quit
10:58	troydm	hey guys, can u guys sugest best book to start Clojure with?
10:59	timvisher	troydm: have you worked through Clojure for the Brave and True?
10:59	timvisher	so slf4j doesn't implement fatal. this faq implies that they don't think you need it because of the Marker interface. can i use that from clojure.tools.logging? http://www.slf4j.org/faq.html#fatal
11:00	troydm	timvisher: no, is this book game oriented?
11:00	timvisher	troydm: nope. http://www.braveclojure.com/
11:00	timvisher	troydm: if you want a book on lisp and games, try The Land of Lisp
11:01	timvisher	you'll glean much from it despite it not being about clojure directly
11:01	troydm	timvisher: I mean is it something like Land of Lisp book
11:01	timvisher	troydm: oh, then no :)
11:01	timvisher	not at all
11:01	troydm	timvisher: ic, I was somehow confused
11:01	troydm	timvisher: I thought I've seen a book that describes Clojure from perspective of programming a game
11:02	troydm	timvisher: I guess I was confused because I though that Clojure for the brave and true was that book
11:03	troydm	timvisher: ahh, I know why I was confused because "Clojure for the Brave and True" on amazon has a title like a book describing games
11:03	troydm	I mean title cover
11:05	timvisher	troydm: so if you make it through CftBaT, i'd probably recommend Programming Clojure and then The Joy of Clojure after that.
11:07	troydm	timvisher: I though that if u'll read Joy of Clojure there is no need to read Programming Clojure
11:08	timvisher	troydm: imo, they're somewhat, but not entirely, orthogonal
11:08	timvisher	others may disagree
11:09	timvisher	certainly i found programming clojure to more approachable, but i think joy of clojure is the best book on the philosophy of clojure there is.
11:09	timvisher	programming clojure is more practical in that sense
11:10	troydm	timvisher: from what I see in Clojure for The brave, it's not too detailed, rather it's like beginners book, I was thinking of something more advanced that would describe how to use namespaces, lein and nrepl
11:10	tdammers	frankly, I found Clojure For The Brave annoyingly silly with all the hobbit examples and such
11:10	justin_smith	troydm: lein and nrepl are just tooling, a book shouldn't even be covering them
11:11	justin_smith	any more than a C book should have chapters on make and pkgconfig
11:12	troydm	justin_smith: yeah I know, but atleast a book about how to structure Clojure project and how to correctly use namespaces and concurrency or atleast something that is close to that
11:12	troydm	justin_smith: also tooling is also important aspect of using programming language, and I think it needs some more spotlight
11:12	justin_smith	troydm: I think Clojure Programming is the book you want
11:13	troydm	justin_smith: ic, okey thanks
11:13	justin_smith	troydm: the problem is that tooling moves too fast for books to be a good source - I doubt there's any books on boot yet, and if there are any about lein, I assure you they are out of date already
11:14	justin_smith	I guess this also reflects where clojure is in its lifecycle
11:16	troydm	justin_smith: ic, that's a good point
11:25	timvisher	troydm: no book will do a good job of covering the tooling
11:25	timvisher	the tooling's documentation barely does an adequate job of covering the tooling. :)
11:25	timvisher	best place to come for tooling questions is usually here, in all honesty
11:26	justin_smith	timvisher: the slack channel is becoming a better and better option I think, more's the pity because I like IRC a lot better and have been too lazy to set up slack via IRC
11:26	timvisher	justin_smith: wait, there's an official slack channel now?
11:27	justin_smith	#clojurians
11:27	justin_smith	quite active!
11:27	timvisher	suck :(
11:27	timvisher	slack is eating all that is beautiful. :)
11:27	timvisher	how does one sign up for said channel?
11:27	tdammers	question here: why is the default license for a new lein project the Eclipse Public License? Wouldn't "All Rights Reserved" make more sense?
11:27	justin_smith	timvisher: trying to recall how I did it, one moment...
11:28	justin_smith	timvisher: get your invite here http://clojurians.net/
11:28	justin_smith	tdammers: because technomancy is a free-software-hippy
11:29	justin_smith	tdammers: in all seriousness, I think it's a subtle nudge to consider open sourcing your code (see also how well clojars works out of the box...)
11:29	tdammers	don't get me wrong, I'm pretty set on software freedom myself, but I still think this is wrong
11:30	tdammers	if you default to "All Rights Reserved", the worst that can happen is that you accidentally don't grant people a license
11:30	wamaral	and more people would complain about that
11:30	tdammers	no problem, just change the text, push, there you go, open source
11:30	tdammers	"All Rights Reserved" is the default anyway (legally speaking)
11:31	tdammers	but when you default to some other license, then it can (and probably does) happen that you accidentally grant licenses that you don't intend to grant
11:31	tdammers	and you can't really fix it either once someone has accepted such a license
11:34	amalloy	tdammers: feel free to release a build tool that expresses this opinion, or even just for lein. or add a new lein template
11:34	amalloy	*fork
11:46	tdammers	amalloy: "patches welcome"?
11:46	cored	justin_smith: thanks for the hint on clojurians
11:46	justin_smith	cored: np
11:47	cored	justin_smith: it wasn't that hard to st it with weechat and now I have everything in the same place
11:47	cored	the only downside of using Slack through irc is that you won't get all the magic as with their client
11:47	amalloy	well, that particular patch is probably not welcome. but technomancy has the right to do whatever he wants with leiningen, and you have the right to wish he would do something else
11:47	tdammers	amalloy: sure
11:48	justin_smith	cored: yeah, I use the client, I'm happy to live without the magic (except for eg. at work where I need the magic to get work done)
11:48	cored	I'm using the irc client for everyting
11:48	troydm	me too
11:48	cored	still can't think of a use case that I really need the magic soo bad
11:48	cored	I mean, I see annuncements in weechat too
11:49	justin_smith	cored: my team uses documents uploaded to slack for things like "help me debug this stack trace"
11:49	justin_smith	or is that something you can use via irc
11:49	cored	well
11:49	cored	you will see a link and when you follows that link you will get the file
11:50	cored	it works for me
11:50	justin_smith	what about creating documents?
11:50	tdammers	my team mainly communicates using reactiongifs served by a bot
11:50	tdammers	that doesn't quite work over IRC
11:50	justin_smith	tdammers: haha, yeah, good luck making that work on IRC yeah
11:51	tdammers	it "works", but it's extremely clumsy, because you're basically opening a browser tab for every message
11:51	cored	justin_smith: well, I don't do that normally I just sent a private gist
11:51	tdammers	might as well use it in the browser in the first place
11:51	cored	tdammers: what I see is stuffs like ::emoticon::
11:51	justin_smith	cored: yeah, it's easier to just use the same flow, instead of being the one guy who does something the weird way
11:51	cored	and then again, I don't care about that too much, but I agree is not the same experience
11:52	justin_smith	my team uses the emoji-reactions for things like voting too (like how many people clicked smiley reaction vs. blow-everything-up reaction)
11:52	cored	justin_smith: sure, maybe I'll switch if everybody is doing stuffs through Slack entirely. The downside for me is having too many tabs opens for each Slack channel
11:52	justin_smith	right
11:53	justin_smith	cored: I'm sure I could make it all work, but in terms of playing nicely with the team, I don't want to be the one guy that forces you to do everything differently
11:53	justin_smith	humans have API conventions too :)
11:54	cored	yes
11:54	cored	I guess I'm waiting for that moment in which everything is getting done through Slack
11:55	cored	even coding itself ;-P which probably will happen at some point
11:55	cored	people love Slack's ui
11:55	justin_smith	"hey guys, good news! we're using slack instead of git now"
11:55	cored	hehe
11:56	cored	yes
11:56	cored	probably along those lines
11:56	tdammers	cored: yeah, no, those are doable, but people trigger the bot's plugins to have it serve reaction gifs
11:57	cored	oh yes
11:57	cored	that's one of the things that I can't do with irc
11:57	cored	like sending /commands
11:57	oddcully	dystopia...
12:14	pflanze	Hello. How do you turn a list holding 2*n items into a list holding n sublists of 2 items each? (a 1 b 2) -> ((a 1) (b 2)) or ([a 1] [b 2])
12:14	justin_smith	pflanze: partition, or partition-all
12:15	justin_smith	depending on what you want to do with any potential remainder
12:15	justin_smith	,(partition 2 '(a 1 b 2))
12:15	clojurebot	((a 1) (b 2))
12:15	justin_smith	,(partition-all 2 '(a 1 b 2 c))
12:15	clojurebot	((a 1) (b 2) (c))
12:15	justin_smith	,(partition 2 '(a 1 b 2 c))
12:15	clojurebot	((a 1) (b 2))
12:16	pflanze	Thanks! What about the second case (which it seems is commonly needed for macros)?
12:16	justin_smith	if you need vectors? you'll likely have to map vec over the result
12:17	justin_smith	,(map vec (partition 2 '(a 1 b 2 c)))
12:17	clojurebot	([a 1] [b 2])
12:17	pflanze	Alright.
12:17	justin_smith	you could also use transducers for this I think
12:17	justin_smith	,(into [] (comp (partition 2) (map vec)) '(a 1 b 2 c))
12:17	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core/partition"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.ArityException\n :message "Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core/partition"\n :at [clojure.lang.AFn throwArity "AFn.java" 429]}]\n :trace\n [[clojure.lang.AFn throwArity "AFn.java" 429]\n [clojure.lang.AFn invoke "AFn.java" 32]\n [sandbox$eval121 invokeStatic "NO_SOURCE_FILE" 0]\n [sandbo...
12:17	justin_smith	I guess not
12:18	justin_smith	,(into [] (comp (partition-all 2) (map vec)) '(a 1 b 2 c))
12:18	clojurebot	[[a 1] [b 2] [c]]
12:18	justin_smith	interesting, partition-all has a transduce but partition does not. Makes sense, I guess.
12:19	pflanze	Why do you think it makes sense?
12:20	justin_smith	because handling the straggling items is the general case, and you can derive the dropping behavior from that. It's still a bit weird I guess.
12:22	justin_smith	also somewhat interesting, you can't access the step arg as a transducer
12:22	justin_smith	,(partition 2 1 [:a 0 :b 1])
12:22	clojurebot	((:a 0) (0 :b) (:b 1))
12:23	pflanze	BTW SRFI-1 from Scheme has "partition" for a different purpose: partition pred list -> [list list]
12:23	pflanze	People can never agree on such fundamentals.
12:24	justin_smith	pflanze: yeah, we call that split-with
12:24	justin_smith	(doc split-with)
12:24	clojurebot	"([pred coll]); Returns a vector of [(take-while pred coll) (drop-while pred coll)]"
12:24	amalloy	justin_smith: sure? i'd guess it's more like (juxt filter remove)
12:25	pflanze	http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-1/srfi-1.html#FilteringPartitioning
12:25	pflanze	I think amalloy is right.
12:25	justin_smith	yeah
12:26	justin_smith	((map (group-by pred l)) [true false])
12:26	justin_smith	not quite
12:26	pflanze	Anyway, I'm finding myself needing the (partition 2) case so often, that I'm probably just going to write and name my own :o.
12:26	justin_smith	,(map (group-by even? (range 20)) [true false])
12:26	pflanze	Also, one that errors out when there is a superfluous item.
12:26	clojurebot	([0 2 4 6 8 ...] [1 3 5 7 9 ...])
12:27	pflanze	Now I just need a name that nobody agrees on.
12:28	pflanze	Perhaps just list->alist
12:29	justin_smith	oh man, alists
12:30	pflanze	Well, Clojure removes the ambiguity of whether the pairs are dotted ones or not!
12:31	pflanze	But I guess Clojurians just use maps instead?
12:31	pflanze	Are maps ordered?
12:32	{blake}	pflanze: Maps are not ordered, but that is a less meaningful statement than it might be in another language.
12:33	pflanze	Why?
12:33	clojurebot	Why is the ram gone is <reply>I blame UTF-16. http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/but-why-is-the-ram-gone
12:41	clojer	What's the best way to include in a Clojure project java files downloaded directly from github, ie. not from Maven?
12:42	{blake}	pflanze: Because the data is the thing, not the container. I mean, maps aren't sorted but you can sort maps.
12:42	{blake}	This is sort of the perversity of OO: It teaches you to value the container more than the data.
12:43	{blake}	(With all due respect to Alan Kay, who had nothing of the sort in mind when he coined the term "object oriented".)
12:43	pflanze	What does this have to do with containers or OO?
12:44	pflanze	Sometimes, e.g. argument parsing, it's important whether the same key appears again, and in which order. I want to maintain that.
12:45	{blake}	pflanze: You asked if a map was ordered. It's not. And it will have no duplicate keys.
12:46	pflanze	Yes, the duplicate keys really is a step beyond.
12:47	pflanze	Still not sure what you meant with the valuing of the container.
12:47	{blake}	Arguments come in as a vector, I believe, which is ordered.
12:47	{blake}	pflanze: Sorry, I'm in a "teaching beginners" headspace which also includes a "re-evaluating my own notions" headspace.
12:47	{blake}	When I started with Clojure, I was positively offended that I could pass in a vector and get back a list.
12:48	{blake}	Now I blithely flip between list, vector, set and map.
12:48	{blake}	I basically don't care, until I do.
12:50	pflanze	Okay. Well, as a Schemer, I'd agree that Clojure looks like having too many data types, which is more OO philosophy than lisps had. (But then I don't really care either.)
12:50	{blake}	So, e.g., I start with a list of words in a book. Then I maybe put it into a set to find the number of unique words, or roll back to a map of frequencies of words use. And if I sort my map, I get a list again.
12:52	pflanze	Ok. Sorting a map into a list is not the same as having a sorted map in the case where you need to add or remove items incrementally, complexity wise.
12:52	{blake}	Elucidate.
12:52	pflanze	(Unless Clojure goes crazy OO here and has SortedMap underneath really.)
12:53	pflanze	What I mean is that as long as a map is a map, you can add and remove items efficiently. Once you've sorted it, you lose that property.
12:54	pflanze	Unlike a sorted map implementation which stores the items sorted but efficiently addable/removable.
12:55	justin_smith	pflanze: we also have sorted-map
12:56	pflanze	Okay, fine.
12:56	justin_smith	pflanze: though I think what you are describing is just a sequence of two element vectors (since you want to preserve ordering and duplicates)
12:56	{blake}	justin_smith: It's not a data structure, though, right?
12:56	justin_smith	{blake}: it is a data structure
12:56	justin_smith	,(type (sorted-map :a 0 :b 1))
12:56	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentTreeMap
12:58	{blake}	justin_smith: Oh! Interesting.
13:00	{blake}	,(type (array-map [0 1 2] [3 4 5]))
13:00	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
13:00	justin_smith	pflanze: I'd argue that even if clojure's proliferation of data structures is "oo nonsense", it's "oo nonsense" that effectively implements functional ends, since we have structures that can effectively share internal structure rather than doing deep copies on every operation
13:01	bcacc	clojer: try looking up lein-localrepo
13:02	clojer	bcacc: Thanks
13:02	{blake}	These are Java classes specifically created for Clojure.
13:04	pflanze	justin_smith, hey, I'm not claiming it's nonsense :). The unusual part for a Lisper/Schemer is really just that they are also used in the language syntax.
13:05	pflanze	Well, vec is. Not sure about the others.
13:05	justin_smith	ahh, right
13:05	pflanze	Also, missing dotted lists.
13:05	justin_smith	pflanze: yeah we have {} for maps, [] for vectors, #{} for sets
13:06	justin_smith	and in terms of syntax {} is used for metadata
13:06	pflanze	Ok.
13:06	justin_smith	trying to think of a language feature that uses #{} though...
13:06	justin_smith	oh, {} is also used for function preconditions and postconditions
13:07	amalloy	i don't really understand the idea of "missing" dotted lists. what do they give you semantically that just using a vector or a list doesn't?
13:07	justin_smith	amalloy: throwing an error if you try to conj onto it I guess?
13:08	justin_smith	maybe not even that
13:08	justin_smith	memory is fuzzy - errors for some list operations certainly
13:11	pflanze	amalloy, e.g. Scheme uses them for argument parsing: the dotted element slurps up the remaining arguments.
13:11	amalloy	sure, but that's just a syntactic thing, not data structures. (foo [x & xs]) serves just as well there
13:12	pflanze	amalloy, this is nicer than having special syntax for it; your code will work with them pretty much transparently.
13:12	pflanze	Well, data structures are syntax are data structures.
13:14	amalloy	that's true, but there are very different priorities for things that happen at runtime vs at compile time
13:14	amalloy	data structures that perform well matter at runtime, and convenient syntax matters at compile time
13:15	pflanze	It's not about speed, but about convenience/beauty.
13:15	pflanze	Since Lisp is about having compile time at run time, this arguably matters.
13:18	pflanze	Not even Schemers fully understand it though: the SRFI-1 library has comments about a discussion on this topic, and the decision was taken to ignore dotted lists for this library.
13:18	pflanze	Which is fair in some situations (better error reporting if dotted lists can't happen), but a hindrance in others (processing such syntax).
13:19	pflanze	So I guess over time, the use of dotted lists has been diluted increasingly, not only in Clojure, but already before.
13:19	pflanze	I think it's a pity. But whatever.
13:20	pflanze	The only thing I'm thinking is that if you're increasingly moving away from linked lists for syntax, you'll end up with ML/Haskell in the end.
13:21	pflanze	Which is fine, too, of course, but, again, "whatever".
13:21	sg2002	Hi all. I've been playing around with cider debugger. It seems to be progressing well. And now I have the most obvoius idea ever - to make debug-on-exception work. Since it's so obvious there's probably someone here who already did this. So what would be the easiest way?
13:21	wasamasa	sg2002: you should prod its author, you know
13:22	wasamasa	sg2002: and no, that line of reasoning is faulty
13:23	justin_smith	sg2002: iirc the debugger only works if you have a separate debugging vm that connects and controls the process. The extra step I guess would be a global exception handler in the debugged vm that invokes some procedure in the debugging one?
13:25	expez	how does core.test change the metadata of a namespace?
13:26	expez	alter-meta! ?
13:29	justin_smith	expez: do you mean clojure.test? and how does it alter namespaces? I know it uses metadata on functions to find tests...
13:29	{blake}	So, if sorted-map gets you speed when dealing with ordered data, what does array-map get you?
13:29	justin_smith	faster lookup and insertion
13:29	expez	justin_smith: I was just wondering what function to use to mutate metadata in place. alter-meta! seems to do the trick to simulate what core.test does
13:30	justin_smith	expez: again, do you mean clojure.test?
13:30	expez	justin_smith: yes, sorry
13:31	{blake}	justin_smith: OK. At what cost?
13:31	justin_smith	expez: I think this is it https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/test.clj#L649
13:32	justin_smith	{blake}: I am not sure, I guess you could benchmark them? my naive assumption is that since both ordered and unordered maps / sets work, that the unordered ones must be fastest for insertion / removal and perhaps also lookup, but the ordered versions might be faster than repeatedly sorting the contents by hand
13:33	{blake}	justin_smith: Yeah. They must have some tradeoff or we'd just always use array-map. I notice that Mongo returns array-maps.
13:33	justin_smith	{blake}: also array-maps are an impl detail - they auto-promote to hash-maps when they have enough items in them
13:33	pflanze	{blake}, also, trees are O(log n), whereas hash tables are O(1). Although Clojure's hashtables will also have a O(log n) subcomponent due to them using trees to implement arrays.
13:34	justin_smith	pflanze: yeah, that was my question mark about lookup - though I bet in practice that's the smallest perf difference of the ones present
13:35	{blake}	Yeah, I thought all was trees, and that's how immutability works. =P
13:37	sg2002	justin_smith: Since we need the stack frame, just a global exception handler won't work, I was thinking more towards wrapping every function call be it with changes to the reader, or maybe iterating over visible functions and replacing them with a debuggable versions.
13:37	pflanze	{blake}, there's a paper about the vectors that Clojure uses, it should give the reasoning. Something like "better amortized" than in normal trees I suppose.
13:37	justin_smith	sg2002: on yeah that's messy
13:38	pflanze	{blake}, probably trading memory for speed
13:41	{blake}	pflanze: That'd be my guess, too.
13:46	pflanze	{blake}, it might also be feasible to use generation counters and mutation and only allocate new tree elements once the existing ones have run out of space, which should be more practical to implement with hashtables than normal trees.
13:46	pflanze	I'm sure that paper could be found again, I'm just a bit too lazy.
13:46	justin_smith	pflanze: hyPiRion 's series of blog posts on clojure's vector impl is great
13:48	firevolt	does anyone have any good resources for learning clojurescript/om?
13:48	justin_smith	firevolt: have you checked out "modern cljs" on github?
14:01	{blake}	firevolt: I don't, but I'd be interested in same.
14:06	sdegutis	Good news everyone, I upgraded to Clojure 1.7 successfully. Only had to rename our function `update` to `update-attrs`.
14:07	sg2002	Debug-on-exception got me thinking how awesome it would be if clojure had a reachable generic exception handler hook. For example we have an obscure state-related bug somewhere in our app that happens when calling (fn val-a val-b). In our handler we expand variables to their states, pack the expanded form into exception info and then pass it up.
14:07	{blake}	sdegutis: I just ignore those messages.
14:08	sdegutis	{blake}: that's one optino
14:08	sdegutis	*OPTION
14:08	sdegutis	Okay reading Datomic changelog now.
14:15	sdegutis	Only 565 lines to read.
14:17	amalloy	sg2002: more than ex-info/ex-data?
14:19	sg2002	amalloy: That's what I meant when I said "exception info".
14:22	seangrove	Hey all, getting this warning re: nrepl stuff, and not understanding why https://www.refheap.com/108381
14:23	seangrove	I have cider-nrepl 0.9.1 in my project.clj, as well as refactor-nrepl 1.0.5
14:40	expez	seangrove: usually these deps are added in profiles.clj and you have to add them as plugins, not dependencies.
14:41	expez	seangrove: so a minimal profiles.clj for cider would be {:user {:plugins [[cider/cider-nrepl "0.9.1"]]}}
14:42	expez	There are instructions for boot in the readme too, if that's how you roll
15:08	sdegutis	Cognitect is pretty brave in putting their Datomic changelog out there so plainly like that.
15:08	sdegutis	Lot of bug fixes in there that horrify me.
15:09	Bronsa	I take you never read any other changelog then
15:10	sdegutis	Only on common third party Clojure libraries like Compojure etc.
15:11	sdegutis	... none of which are maintained by highly profitable corporations like Cognitect/Relevance
15:12	Bronsa	http://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.4/static/release-9-4-4.html https://dev.mysql.com/doc/relnotes/mysql/5.6/en/news-5-6-26.html https://raw.githubusercontent.com/antirez/redis/3.0/00-RELEASENOTES https://docs.mongodb.org/v3.0/release-notes/2.6-changelog/
15:13	Bronsa	breaking news: software requires bug fixes
15:13	sdegutis	Bronsa: Those are all free (gratis) open source projects. Huge difference.
15:13	sdegutis	Bronsa: Datomic is financially supported
15:13	sdegutis	and closed-source
15:13	preyalone	How do I install specific Clojure versions with Leiningen, so that clj is added to $PATH?
15:14	Bronsa	right, and mysql is developed by volunteers
15:14	preyalone	I want to use leiningen like rvm
15:14	sdegutis	preyalone: Just put the Clojure version as a dependency
15:14	Bronsa	wtf are you talking about sdegutis
15:14	sdegutis	preyalone: it won't put anything in your $PATH though, you'd still use Clojure via `lein`
15:14	preyalone	there's no project, just leiningen and random scripts
15:14	sdegutis	Bronsa: never mind, you can't understand
15:14	Bronsa	what has being open source or not have anything to do with bug fixes?
15:14	sdegutis	preyalone: maybe you're looking for lein-exec?
15:14	Bronsa	sdegutis: fuck off.
15:14	sdegutis	Bronsa: ok
15:15	justin_smith	preyalone: that's not what leiningen is intended for - it's a build tool and dependency manager
15:15	preyalone	thanks all
15:15	sdegutis	Bronsa: I don't mean to insult you. You just aren't understanding what I'm saying, and I suck at explaining what I'm thinking.
15:15	hiredman	Bronsa: I'd suggest using /ignore
15:15	sdegutis	Bronsa: So there's no use trying to communicate it further.
15:15	justin_smith	preyalone: if you know the exact jar you want to use, java -cp clojure-version.jar clojure.main
15:16	justin_smith	preyalone: bonus, that will start faster than lein
15:17	sdegutis	Bronsa: sure or you can go hiredman's route and ignore me I guess
15:17	sdegutis	I've been /ignore'd by hundreds of people on IRC over the past 15 years, who dismiss me as a troll. What's one more?
15:19	preyalone	i don't always organize my code into well-defined projects. sometimes i just have random shell scripts, and it would be nice to have an equivalent to rvm for quickly switching between clj versions in the current shell / process
15:19	justin_smith	preyalone: there's nothing to switch
15:19	justin_smith	preyalone: just tell the java command which clojure jar to use
15:19	sdegutis	That's the nice thing about Clojure compared to Ruby: it's not a global command, it's just a Java library.
15:20	sdegutis	That said, you may run into problems if you need different versions of Java JDK.
15:20	sdegutis	(I think?)
15:20	justin_smith	sdegutis: I have like 6 different jvms installed
15:20	sdegutis	Haha I didn't know you could do that.
15:21	justin_smith	of course only one is mapped in my default shell to "java"
15:21	justin_smith	but they are all there and ready to use
15:22	sdegutis	Maybe I have more than one also then.
15:23	sdegutis	I really don't understand the JVM ecosystem at all.
15:24	justin_smith	sdegutis: ls -l $(which java) may be informative
15:24	sdegutis	Heh, "/System/Library/Frameworks/JavaVM.framework/Versions/Current/Commands/java"
15:25	justin_smith	sdegutis: and I assume you can guess what may or may not be found under that Versions/ directory in the middle there
15:25	sdegutis	Yeah it's only 1.6 but a bunch of symlinks to 1.6 for things like 1.4, 1.3, 1.5, etc
15:25	sdegutis	weird
15:26	justin_smith	if you went and installed 1.7 and 1.8 they would likely end up neighbors
15:27	sdegutis	Well `lein repl` says I have 1.8 installed right now and it's using it.
15:27	preyalone	cool, just pushed a simple docker container with leiningen installed. https://github.com/mcandre/docker-leiningen
15:27	sdegutis	preyalone: Docker scares me.
15:27	sdegutis	We just use shell scripts to update stuff.
15:28	justin_smith	preyalone: making build machines? ideally your app servers would not have leiningen installed - it's a build tool
15:29	preyalone	justin_smith: aye, only jvm and the specific clojure / jar deps would be on the app servers
15:29	sdegutis	Right use `lein uberjar` instead it's super useful.
15:29	justin_smith	preyalone: you don't even need the deps, if you use an uberjar
15:29	justin_smith	preyalone: the app is a single jar containing clojure and all needed libs along with the app
15:29	sdegutis	Anyone know if Clojure 1.8 is going to have those big performance improvements based on optimizing pre-loading of clojure.core vars or whatever that was?
15:30	preyalone	neat
15:30	sdegutis	Because I'd really enjoy always having a faster start-up Clojure time.
15:33	puredanger	The downside of delayed var loading is that every var invocation for the rest of your runtime is 50% slower
15:34	sdegutis	puredanger: can't it memoize it after the first run, so that it's only the first access?
15:34	sdegutis	But obviously if that was a good idea, you guys alread y thought of it.
15:35	puredanger	How do you know it's the first time? That implies a condition and conditions have a cost and hurt inlining
15:36	puredanger	Invokedynamic actually does have a guard condition that does this
15:36	sdegutis	Ah.
15:36	sdegutis	cool
15:37	puredanger	I do not know if Rich has any plans to work on this for 1.8
15:37	sdegutis	ok
15:37	sdegutis	Well if Clojure's dynamic nature inherently requires this slowness and no optimizations can be done, then so be it.
15:38	sdegutis	IT WORKS! Just upgraded Clojure 1.5.1 -> 1.7, and Datomic 0.8.4218 -> 0.9.5206 ... and it seems to work!!
15:38	puredanger	Why wouldn't it? :)
15:39	sdegutis	Haha good point.
15:48	donbonif_	in what way is (map inc) different from (partial map inc) ?
15:49	sdegutis	donbonif_: I wondered the same thing yesterday. The answer I was given was to read the entire Transducers page on the official website.
15:49	sdegutis	donbonif_: I could be misremembering though -- there might be nothing relevant on that page.
15:50	hiredman	(map inc) returns a function that transforms a reducing function, (partial map inc) returns a function that takes a collection and returns a seq
15:54	donbonif_	so a transducer never operates on a function directly? only trough transduce/into/etc ?
15:55	hiredman	,(reduce ((map inc) conj) [] (range 10))
15:55	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4 5 ...]
15:56	justin_smith	,(into [] (map inc) (range 10))
15:56	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4 5 ...]
15:57	hiredman	the terminology around transducers (like reducers before them) is not super clear, because there isn't a clojure.lang.Transducer, just a bunch of stuff delivered as "transudcers"
15:57	donbonif_	ok, I understand that. I guess I have yet to find somewhere to properly apply transducers
15:58	donbonif_	to fully use understand and use them
15:58	sdegutis	Yeah I don't fully understand the use-case of them either.
15:58	hiredman	so which things in the collection of code that is called "transducers" get the name Transducers isn't obvious, so people refer to different parts of the machine as transducers
15:59	hiredman	which makes it hard to have an exact conversation about
16:16	sdegutis	Is there a way to show your dependency graph via Leiningen?
16:17	sdegutis	Ah, lein deps :tree
16:57	BinaryResult	Hi Guys, just in case anyone missed it we are currently hiring remote full-stack clojure developers. See the full description here http://discomelee.com/jobs/ Hope to hear from you!
17:10	ed-g	It looks like when I call (ring.util.response.redirect "/") it redirects to the absolute location of the server on localhost:5000, rather than the Location that the client is accessing it by. Is there a way to change that setting?
17:30	rhg135	is there a constant time way to get a random key from a map, usually I'd use (comp rand-nth keys), but that's O(n).
17:32	gfredericks	rhg135: I doubt it
17:32	rhg135	I thought so. sadness
17:33	gfredericks	rhg135: I'm sure the impl could support such a thing if it wanted to
17:33	rhg135	I think so too
17:34	rhg135	I'll keep a pair of vector of keys and a map
17:35	rhg135	persistent structures mean little wasted memory
17:35	rhg135	just all the nodes
17:38	amalloy	rhg135: and how would you efficiently maintain that vector of keys?
17:39	gfredericks	I'm guessing it's static
17:39	amalloy	what, all maps are static? rhg135 is asking for a random key from a map
17:39	rhg135	amalloy: generally I couldn't. but in this domain the map is not changed
17:40	gfredericks	I'm guessing based on the fact that that solution was suggested at all :)
17:40	amalloy	oh, you said "i'll"
17:40	amalloy	i thought we were talking about how the impl could support such a thing still, and read "i'd"
17:40	gfredericks	now all of our reactions make sense
17:41	rhg135	On a vector rand-nth is O(1), right?
17:43	gfredericks	,(let [v (vec (range 1000000))] (time (rand-nth v)))
17:44	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Java heap space"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.OutOfMemoryError\n :message "Java heap space"\n :at [java.lang.Long valueOf "Long.java" 577]}]\n :trace\n [[java.lang.Long valueOf "Long.java" 577]\n [clojure.lang.LongRange reduce "LongRange.java" 233]\n [clojure.lang.PersistentVector create "PersistentVector.java" 65]\n [clojure.lang.LazilyPersistentVector create "LazilyPersis...
17:44	gfredericks	&(let [v (vec (range 1000000))] (time (rand-nth v)))
17:44	lazybot	⇒ "Elapsed time: 4.866386 msecs" 828650
17:44	gfredericks	seems like a lot of milliseconds
17:44	gfredericks	I'm guess you'll want to write your own rand-nth
17:44	gfredericks	rand-nthv
17:45	rhg135	,(source rand-nth)
17:45	clojurebot	Source not found\n
17:45	rhg135	meh!
17:45	justin_smith	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/clojure-1.7.0/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L6938
17:46	feijja	What is the opposite of map? I have a value (in this case a char), and I want to run it thru every function in a list.
17:46	rhg135	seems legit
17:46	gfredericks	feijja: (map #(% v) fns)
17:47	rhg135	that's still map
17:47	amalloy	feijja: alternatively, you have a list of functions, and you want to run each of them over a value (in this case a char-
17:47	sdegutis	How do you work around cyclical dependencies in your own namespaces?
17:47	rhg135	(map #(% v) ..)
17:47	feijja	gfredericks: that was simple! Thank you >.>
17:47	rhg135	require
17:47	amalloy	as O(1) as anything else on a vector, rhg135
17:48	gfredericks	amalloy: why did your lazybot take four whooole milliseconds to retrieve an item
17:48	sdegutis	Is the convention to just require the namespace inside the function call that requires it?
17:48	amalloy	cosmic rays
17:48	gfredericks	sdegutis: I think most people restructure namespaces
17:48	gfredericks	&(let [v (vec (range 1000000))] (time (rand-nth v)))
17:48	lazybot	⇒ "Elapsed time: 4.655652 msecs" 699246
17:49	rhg135	yes
17:49	gfredericks	amalloy: two cosmic rays!
17:49	sdegutis	gfredericks: I'll keep trying that. Been at it for 10 minutes though and not seeing a clear solution.
17:49	amalloy	gfredericks: seriously though rand-nth is as fast as it can be, afaik
17:49	rhg135	cyclycal deps are usually a warning
17:49	amalloy	~def rand-nth
17:49	gfredericks	amalloy: I looked at the impl so I believe you, but 4msecs is pretty weird
17:49	gfredericks	my repl did it in 0.05 msecs
17:50	gfredericks	maybe lazybot uses Really Slow Vectors
17:50	amalloy	sandboxing? i dunno
17:50	gfredericks	~mystery
17:50	clojurebot	mystery is http://p.hagelb.org/mystery.gif
17:50	Bronsa	&(time 1)
17:50	lazybot	⇒ "Elapsed time: 4.441412 msecs" 1
17:50	gfredericks	haha
17:51	gfredericks	,(let [t1 (System/nanoTime) t2 (System/nanoTime)] [t1 t2])
17:51	rhg135	what
17:51	clojurebot	[20961776023440845 20961776023441278]
17:51	gfredericks	,(let [t1 (System/nanoTime) t2 (System/nanoTime)] (- t2 t1))
17:51	clojurebot	473
17:52	gfredericks	weerd
17:52	amalloy	gfredericks: my guess is, lazybot is doing i/o during that time, because it is saving out to put it in a stringwriter
17:52	rhg135	clojail isn't time sensitive is it?
17:52	rhg135	or that
17:52	sdegutis	db.connect requires db.schema for setup-schema, db.schema requires db.helpers for create-attribute, so db.helpers can't require db.connect for the live-connection
17:52	rhg135	either way timing things in a sandbox is a bad idea
17:53	rhg135	db.state ?
17:53	justin_smith	,(reductions - (repeatedly #(System/nanoTime)))
17:53	clojurebot	(20961916921858597 -489693 -20961916922987536 -41923833845509226 -62885750768060913 ...)
17:53	sdegutis	Maybe the schema shouldn't be a gigantic def inside a single file?
17:53	sdegutis	Maybe each file should add to the schema itself instead.
17:54	gfredericks	sdegutis: what does create-attribute do?
17:54	sdegutis	Mutability!
17:54	rhg135	oh dear
17:54	sdegutis	gfredericks: forget that, a better reason is that db.schema requires tons of files that export database attributes, which use db.helpers to set up those attributes
17:54	sdegutis	db attributes are basically like table definitions if this were sql
17:55	sdegutis	and who wants to hand-write sql?
17:55	rhg135	me
17:55	sdegutis	Maybe mutability is the answer?
17:55	rhg135	no
17:55	rhg135	it hardly ever is
17:56	amalloy	&(map (partial apply -) (partition 2 1 (repeatedly 10 #(System/nanoTime))))
17:56	lazybot	⇒ (-2627774 -2575106 -2567565 -2959637 -2595812 -2377417 -2389713 -2383616 -2446741)
17:56	amalloy	,(map (partial apply -) (partition 2 1 (repeatedly 10 #(System/nanoTime))))
17:56	clojurebot	(-98835 -155731 -130121 -60025 -57765 ...)
17:56	sdegutis	It seems strange to have the schema namespace require every namespace it needs for building the schema itself.
17:56	sdegutis	Doesn't it?
17:56	amalloy	oh i bet i remember
17:56	amalloy	lazybot does really slow sandboxing around interop calls
17:56	amalloy	and time macroexpands to such a call
17:57	rhg135	,(map (fn [_] (Thread/currentThread))) (repeat 10 nil))
17:57	clojurebot	#object[clojure.core$map$fn__4537 0x676641fb "clojure.core$map$fn__4537@676641fb"]
17:57	rhg135	eh
17:58	hiredman	someone should write an interpreter over tools.analyzer's ast
17:58	sdegutis	##(map (partial apply -) (partition 2 1 (repeatedly 10 #(System/nanoTime))))
17:58	lazybot	⇒ (-2151029 -2107115 -6504619 -2099165 -2079598 -2091383 -2063970 -2106716 -2094827)
17:58	sdegutis	&(map (partial apply -) (partition 2 1 (repeatedly 10 #(System/nanoTime))))
17:58	lazybot	⇒ (-2183474 -2074782 -2074559 -2051653 -2126746 -2092625 -2066550 -2101132 -2103594)
17:58	sdegutis	wha
17:59	rhg135	tej?
18:00	gfredericks	now that CLJS is self-hosted does that mean it'd be easy to write a browser repl that can format values as arbitrary html?
18:00	sdegutis	Schema setup probably shouldn't be responsible for building the schema by searching the entire application.
18:00	sdegutis	gfredericks: it is??
18:00	lazybot	sdegutis: Definitely not.
18:00	hiredman	(because interpreters are generally more reusable and easier to retarget to do other things, like analysis or sandboxing than compilers)
18:00	gfredericks	sdegutis: sorta
18:00	amalloy	hiredman: but then we'd have to edit all those blog posts that say "clojures is NOT an interpreted language"
18:01	rhg135	compiling should be a optimization iirc
18:01	sdegutis	sure it is
18:01	hiredman	amalloy: an interpreter can be turned in to a compiler :)
18:02	rhg135	otoh clojure the language is very much wed to the jvm imo
18:02	rhg135	thats why clj /= cljs, ever
18:07	{blake}	Oh, that's interesting. I'd say Clojure uses the JVM for convenience and acceptance, and it'd be just as home...anywhere.
18:11	rhg135	you're right. it's only slightly.
18:15	{blake}	We have a large library we're looking to port to CLJS, and it doesn't seem like there's much reliance on the JVM.
18:20	sdegutis	Is ClojureScript on Node.js a reasonable option for web apps now?
18:23	rhg135	somewhat
18:24	feijja	sdegutis: Yes, I'd say so. But why would you do that, rather than JVM Clojure?
18:24	rhg135	^
18:25	sdegutis	The tooling around Node/Io.js feel a little more refined and loved.
18:25	rhg135	you COULD, but why
18:25	sdegutis	For all that sucks about JavaScript, those guys sure do like having good tools.
18:25	feijja	Very true. Go ahead :). If you wrap JS libs in CLJS, make sure to share your libs!
18:26	slaterr	,((1 2 3)(4 5 6))
18:26	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.ClassCastException\n :message "java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn"\n :at [sandbox$eval25 invokeStatic "NO_SOURCE_FILE" 0]}]\n :trace\n [[sandbox$eval25 invokeStatic "NO_SOURCE_FILE" 0]\n [sandbox$eval25 invoke "NO_SOURCE_FILE" -1]\n [clojure.lang.Compiler eval "Compiler.java" 6943]...
18:26	slaterr	why doesn't that work?
18:27	rhg135	,(1)
18:27	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.ClassCastException\n :message "java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn"\n :at [sandbox$eval145 invokeStatic "NO_SOURCE_FILE" 0]}]\n :trace\n [[sandbox$eval145 invokeStatic "NO_SOURCE_FILE" 0]\n [sandbox$eval145 invoke "NO_SOURCE_FILE" -1]\n [clojure.lang.Compiler eval "Compiler.java" 69...
18:27	sdegutis	feijja: will do :)
18:27	hiredman	a literal list is function application in lisps
18:28	feijja	sdegutis: just remember that JS is single-threaded, and Clojure is pretty neat when doing concurrent stuff.
18:28	hiredman	if (+ 1 2) is appling the + function 1 and 2, and (- 1 2) is appling the - function to 1 and 2, what function is (1 2 3) applying?
18:28	rappaport	feijja: like what?
18:29	feijja	I'm writing a function that will return a vector of functions. Every call to (fn [] ()) returns a new function, with a new 'id'. How can I use `=` in my unit tests, to compare my list-of-functions-returning function against a predefined list?
18:29	feijja	The function returns [(fn [x] (x)) (fn [y] (y))], and each fn gets a new 'id'
18:29	slaterr	yeah I got confused by the error message. I thought it was related to nested lists, and not missing ' by mistake
18:30	slaterr	which i didn't even notice
18:30	feijja	rappaport: Clojures core.async has very nice ways to do concurrency - it's available in CLJS too. But in Clojure things will run at the same time in different threads. In CLJS things will never be able to run at the same point in time
18:30	rappaport	I'm not Rappaport.
18:31	amalloy	feijja: you can't really compare functions for anything but pointer equality. if you want to test that you get back a function that behaves a certain way, all you can do is call it with some inputs and verify you get the output you wanted
18:31	rhg135	on node, you could get threads
18:31	rappaport	feijja: Ahhh i see
18:31	feijja	amalloy: I see... Was afraid of that.
18:31	rappaport	On io.js too I bet
18:31	rhg135	but thats hacky
18:32	rappaport	I've been caring less and less whether something's hacky lately as long as it gets the job done long-term
18:32	rappaport	granted, most "hacky" things won't, but I think that's just a coincidence
18:32	rhg135	s/hack/not pre done/
18:32	rhg135	laziness
18:33	rappaport	It's thundering and it smells wonderful outside.
18:34	rhg135	core.async does have a pluggable executor
18:49	rhg135	KeySeq is unfortunately linear it seems
19:34	domokato	What is the clojuresque way of implementing a function that, given an integer, returns an infinite list of integers sorted by distance from that integer. For example, given 5, returns (5 6 4 7 3 8 2 9 1 10 0 11 -1 12 -2 13 ...)?
19:37	domokato	i noticed the pattern of +1, -2, +3, -4, +5, etc., in the output, leading me to consider loop/recur, but that's not lazy
19:37	amalloy	,((fn [x] (map #(+ % x) (rest (mapcat (juxt + -) (range))))) 5)
19:37	clojurebot	(5 6 4 7 3 ...)
19:37	amalloy	would be my first effort
19:40	domokato	juxt, i was not aware of that function, thx!
19:40	domokato	i gtg for the moment, but will read the logs when i get back
19:41	domokato	another wrinkle in my problem is that i want to omit values that are above a specific number or below another specific number
19:41	domokato	brb
20:01	slaterr	how to do this? "one two three" => "one - two - three"
20:02	slaterr	what do I do after (str/split "one two three" #" ")?
20:02	slaterr	to insert " - " in between each element and then concat them all together
20:03	amalloy	&(doc clojure.string/join)
20:03	lazybot	⇒ "([coll] [separator coll]); Returns a string of all elements in coll, as returned by (seq coll), separated by an optional separator."
20:05	rfmind	slaterr: I think you should use replace to replace " " with " - "
20:05	slaterr	there could be more than one space
20:11	rfmind	slaterr: (clojure.string/replace "one two three" #" +" "-")
20:15	slaterr	what does putting # in front of string literal do btw? it makes a regex literal?
20:15	rfmind	yes
20:16	rfmind	#" +" basically says => one or more space(s)
20:16	rhg135	\s+
20:17	rfmind	rhg135: thanks :D
20:18	rhg135	np
21:03	domokato	amalloy: ah, I should be able to just surround your code with filter to get the job done
21:04	amalloy	domokato: wellllll, kinda. eventually all values will be either above the first number or below the second, and your filter will be discarding all elements
21:04	justin_smith	yeah, a take-while might be helpful there?
21:05	amalloy	justin_smith: it's a little complicated though, if you want to take-while at least one condition is true but filter items where either condition is false
21:07	domokato	oh, filter causes infinite loop when you try to access later elements, huh
21:08	justin_smith	domokato: well it's looking for the next item meeting your predicate
21:08	justin_smith	domokato: which is why I suggested take-while
21:08	justin_smith	but as amalloy mentions that's still not simple
21:08	domokato	ah yes
21:10	domokato	couldn't i filter between top and bottom and then take top minus bottom?
21:11	justin_smith	well, I think you want something that avoids looking for the next element meeting your condition once you know no element can...
21:11	justin_smith	because the filter is too stupid
21:19	domokato	justin_smith: doesn't that do it, though? For example, if my bottom is 0, my top is 5, and my x is 3, then it would take 5, resulting in (3 4 2 1 0), and no other elements meet the conditions
21:19	justin_smith	domokato: why does filter know that "no other elements meet the conditions
21:19	justin_smith	"
21:20	domokato	it doesn't, but i know, which is why i take only that many
21:20	justin_smith	ahh, which means you can use take or take-while
21:20	domokato	hm, what would my condition be for take-while, though?
21:22	amalloy	domokato: you provably can't solve this with a pure predicate to take-while, because it only gets to look at one element at a time and you need to know about two different items at once in order to make the decision to stop
21:23	domokato	yeah, that's my understanding
21:39	gfredericks	luxbock: your test.check question is just gen/elements I think
21:43	amalloy	gfredericks: the difference being that gen/elements grows towards selecting later elements and shrinks towards earlier ones, where gen/one-of doesn't grow with size but does shrink?
21:43	gfredericks	uhms
21:43	amalloy	also gen/one-of requires a generator instead of a value, but he had already made that
21:44	gfredericks	yeah looks like one-of does not grow through the list
21:44	gfredericks	but....
21:44	gfredericks	neither does elements
21:44	gfredericks	maybe I didn't examine the question closely enough, was growth a requirement?
21:45	gfredericks	reading the question closer it isn't clear if luxbock is intentionally distinguishing growth from shrinking or not
21:45	amalloy	gfredericks: well no, the question was about shrinking, but he wasn't testing shrinking at all
21:45	gfredericks	right
21:46	gfredericks	it's never occurred to me to use the word "growth" w.r.t. generators but it makes sense
21:46	amalloy	gfredericks: i just made it up now. do you want a license?
21:46	gfredericks	yes thanks
21:51	gfredericks	I think the most surprising misconception I encountered when talking to people at clojure/west about test.check was they assumed growth and shrinking were related
21:51	gfredericks	only surprising to me because I had been living in the impl for a while
21:51	gfredericks	otherwise is a totally reasonable thing to guess
21:56	amalloy	if you caught me unaware and asked me i would probably say that they are
21:56	seangrove	Can't seem to figure out how to get clj-time to work with a #inst literal
21:56	gfredericks	it takes effort
21:57	gfredericks	let me think
21:57	seangrove	I suppose I need to coerce it with from-date
21:57	gfredericks	to print it?
21:57	gfredericks	if you want everything to be awesome you have to do both printing and reading
21:57	seangrove	Yeah, just want to print it. Probably should have just looked up the Java methods
21:58	gfredericks	I'll find how I do it
21:59	gfredericks	seangrove: https://www.refheap.com/108392
21:59	gfredericks	now that I look at it there's probably a less wasteful way to do it
21:59	gfredericks	but that at least works
22:00	gfredericks	the i prefix there clojure.instant
22:00	gfredericks	is*
22:36	sdegutis	What's a good way to run swap! only once for a given atom with the given args?
22:36	sdegutis	I assume something to do with memoize right?
22:39	crocket	Why is it faster to load a script via clojure.jar than to load it as part of a leiningen uberjar?
22:39	gfredericks	sdegutis: I'm pretty sure if you want to do that it means you shouldn't be using an atom; what about agents?
22:40	sdegutis	crocket: Leiningen loads the JVM a few times usually.
22:40	crocket	leiningen uberjar takes 4 seconds to load.
22:40	sdegutis	crocket: there are some hacks to avoid it, like trampoline, but they come at their own costs and caveats
22:40	sdegutis	gfredericks: Both are probably the wrong way actually.
22:40	gfredericks	sdegutis: it doesn't sound like leiningen is part of the startup here, the question is about running jars
22:40	sdegutis	gfredericks: I'm trying to load my schema in reverse-dependency order.
22:40	crocket	sdegutis : Do you know what an uberjar is?
22:40	justin_smith	crocket: the time spent by lein uberjar is mostly spent putting all the stuff in a file on disk, or do you mean the time running the resulting jar?
22:41	gfredericks	sdegutis: why is your schema spread around your project?
22:41	crocket	loading a simple script
22:41	sdegutis	gfredericks: Before, I'd have the schema namespace require a declarative var out of every single namespace that declares one, manually, and build the schema that way. It's stupid though.
22:41	sdegutis	gfredericks: Why? Hmm. Because I want the user attributes in the user.clj file, etc.
22:42	sdegutis	gfredericks: It allows me to keep things organized a little nicer.
22:42	crocket	I mean the startup time of a simple script is faster as a standalone than in an uberjar.
22:42	justin_smith	sdegutis: I use an agent instead of an atom for the top level component in my system, because I don't want retries between start / stop, I want a linear sequence
22:42	sdegutis	justin_smith, gfredericks: hmm I'll refresh my memory on what agents are again thanks
22:42	gfredericks	justin_smith: I think he's just trying to organize his code in cyclic sorts of ways
22:43	justin_smith	well that's just silly
22:43	sdegutis	But I think what I probably want is to declare partial schemas like this: (def ^:schema users-attributes [...])
22:43	sdegutis	And then just search my codebase for vars with :schema in the metadata, and use those.
22:43	sdegutis	justin_smith, gfredericks: Actually I don't think that's what I'm trying to do.
22:44	sdegutis	justin_smith: I'm trying to make it so that my schema is declarative while still being push-onto rather than pull-onto, if that makes sense.
22:44	justin_smith	sdegutis: can a schema specify that elements need to implement some protocol? if so the schema and protocol definition can be at the very bottom of your dependency stack
22:44	sdegutis	justin_smith, gfredericks: In other words, I don't want some centralized location having to require the entire codebase just to build a schema. I'd rather have each part build up anonymously, in a decentralized manner.
22:45	sdegutis	justin_smith: Sorry which way is bottom/top again?
22:45	justin_smith	sdegutis: the bottom is required by others but requires nothing
22:45	justin_smith	the top requires others, required by nothing
22:45	sdegutis	Ah.
22:45	sdegutis	Hmm let me think.
22:46	justin_smith	sdegutis: the idea would be, the schema specifies "things that implement such and such protocol go here", and then users of the schema could go ahead and implement protocol as they like
22:46	sdegutis	justin_smith: I'd like my partial-schemas to live in the middle of the stack, i.e. within the context of the code which makes use of it, like users.clj and account.clj etc
22:46	tmtwd	(defn divisble [x n] (if (= (mod x n) 0) true false)) : how come this function doesn't work?
22:46	justin_smith	or write code that calls methods of that protocol, using the instances some other code filled in
22:47	tmtwd	user> (divisible 40 10) => nil
22:47	justin_smith	sdegutis: middle is a weird place to put your fundamental definitions
22:47	amalloy	tmtwd: as written that function looks fine. are you sure you're not calling some other function?
22:47	amalloy	like, re-paste the definition and eval it again
22:47	sdegutis	justin_smith: they're not quite fundamental... they're a level undernearth the web interface, but a step up above the helper functions which they use
22:48	tmtwd	oops
22:49	sdegutis	justin_smith: the circle I was encountering earlier is that the db.helpers namespace (where db helper functions live) were building the schema and requiring the mid-level namespaces containing schema-attributes, but these mid-level namespaces were requiring the db.helpers namespace for the functions that help build up a schema
22:50	justin_smith	I think it's weird for schema definitions to use db helpers
22:50	sdegutis	I suppose they could be mere data that I could translate later.
22:50	justin_smith	I think a schema should be a shape with no implementation details
22:50	sdegutis	That's not a terrible idea.
22:50	sdegutis	Right now I have like (make-one-attr :foo/bar :db.type/string) turn into a full-fledged Datomic install-attribute line suitable for putting into a transaction.
22:51	sdegutis	I guess I could turn that into [:make-one-attr :foo/bar :string] and transform that at consume-time.
22:51	sdegutis	But that still doesn't quite solve the bigger issue, which is where this is stored, and how to get it into the schma.
22:52	sdegutis	What I want to move away from, is where db.schema requires [features.user :refer [user-attributes]] and so on, x20, since that's backwards.
22:53	sdegutis	What I'm trying to figure out how to move towards, is where features.user tells db.schema that he has some user-attributes to add to what's already there (but only once of course).
22:53	sdegutis	The stupid solution I have, and justin_smith you will probably hate this, is (swap! db.schema/schema concat user-attributes)
22:54	sdegutis	But it's usable for the most part. Just need to turn it into assoc :user-attributes user-attributes and it fixes the reloading problem.
22:55	sdegutis	It's just... mutable. That feels gross.
22:55	justin_smith	slightly more sane would be a promise - at least that can only be realized once
22:55	justin_smith	but I've already voted for what I think the real solution is
22:56	sdegutis	Thanks justin_smith for your feedback.
22:56	sdegutis	I guess in order to maintain my (crazy?) stack order, I have to do it this way.
22:56	sdegutis	Otherwise I like your idea best.
23:43	sdegutis	,(->> [] (conj 2) (atom) (def foo))
23:43	sdegutis	,foo
23:43	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException\n :message "java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_FILE:0:0)"\n :at [clojure.lang.Compiler$InvokeExpr eval "Compiler.java" 3661]}\n {:type java.lang.ClassCastException\n...
23:43	clojurebot	#object[clojure.lang.Var$Unbound 0x33ffc978 "Unbound: #'sandbox/foo"]
23:43	sdegutis	That should have worked right?
23:43	sdegutis	What am I doing wrong?
23:43	justin_smith	nope
23:43	sdegutis	Is def super-special and won't allow that or something?
23:43	Bronsa	,(macroexpand '(->> [] (conj 2)))
23:43	clojurebot	(conj 2 [])
23:43	rhg135	the answer to a lot of things seems to be "data it"
23:43	sdegutis	Oops.
23:43	justin_smith	,(-> [] (conj 2) atom (->> (def foo)))
23:43	clojurebot	#'sandbox/foo
23:43	sdegutis	,(->> [] (cons 2) (atom) (def foo))
23:43	clojurebot	#'sandbox/foo
23:43	sdegutis	foo
23:44	sdegutis	,foo
23:44	clojurebot	#object[clojure.lang.Atom 0x21cdeae0 {:status :ready, :val (2)}]
23:44	justin_smith	cheater, that makes it a list
23:44	sdegutis	hahahaha
23:44	sdegutis	:D
23:44	justin_smith	my version made it still a vector
23:44	sdegutis	The main thing was (def foo) at the end of a ->>
23:44	sdegutis	I think I'll do all my defs that way from now on.
23:45	rhg135	it certainly helps in a repl
23:45	sdegutis	Never considered that! Good idea rhg135
23:46	rhg135	neither had I till a month ago
23:46	rhg135	it was a joyous day
23:46	sdegutis	:D
23:46	sdegutis	You should have put it in /r/lifeprotips for me
23:46	sdegutis	*us
23:47	rhg135	I should use reddit first of all lol
23:48	sdegutis	Yeah I just found it the other day.
23:48	sdegutis	It's absolutely terrible.
23:48	justin_smith	(->> reddit (.com) :r/clojure (map upvote))
23:48	sdegutis	justin_smith: nice touch with the .com metho
23:48	sdegutis	d
23:48	rhg135	so java interop
23:48	sdegutis	and the :r/ namespace!
23:49	sdegutis	I bet all the people who have me on ignore are really confused why justin_smith wrote that lol
23:49	sdegutis	What's better for in a test, with-redefs or binding?
23:49	rhg135	if this chan was a namespace what would it be?
23:49	justin_smith	sdegutis: I like to spew really random stupid stuff on here, and assume most people will just think I am responding to someone they ignore
23:49	sdegutis	justin_smith: haha
23:49	rhg135	binding or neither
23:50	Bronsa	they don't do the same thing
23:50	sdegutis	rhg135: why not with-redefs?
23:50	justin_smith	rhg135: :freenode/#clojure obviously
23:50	sdegutis	Bronsa: oh?
23:50	rhg135	race conditions
23:50	sdegutis	justin_smith: is that legal!?
23:50	sdegutis	justin_smith: I think it's not cuz #
23:50	sdegutis	reader-hinter thing
23:50	justin_smith	,:foo/#bar
23:50	clojurebot	:foo/#bar
23:50	sdegutis	!
23:50	rhg135	justin_smith: I would think ::stuff is :freenode.clojure/stuff
23:50	justin_smith	sdegutis: so many stupid keywords that should not be legal, are anyway
23:51	Bronsa	,:a/1
23:51	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: :a/1>
23:51	Bronsa	,:1/a
23:51	clojurebot	:1/a
23:51	justin_smith	,:f''ooo/#b'#'ar
23:51	clojurebot	:f''ooo/#b'#'ar
23:51	rhg135	,:freenode.#clojure/a
23:51	clojurebot	:freenode.#clojure/a
23:51	rhg135	huh
23:51	sdegutis	justin_smith: like this? ##(keyword "")
23:51	lazybot	⇒ :
23:51	sdegutis	##:
23:51	rhg135	live and learn they say
23:51	sdegutis	##(do :)
23:52	sdegutis	haha I broke lazybot
23:52	justin_smith	,((juxt namespace name) (keyword "well that's cheating, but this keyword / is worse"))
23:52	clojurebot	["well that's cheating, but this keyword " " is worse"]
23:52	rhg135	oh dear
23:52	Bronsa	&clojure-version
23:52	lazybot	⇒ {:major 1, :minor 7, :incremental 0, :qualifier "alpha1"}
23:52	rhg135	imagine it as a literal
23:52	Bronsa	uff
23:53	Bronsa	,:foo/bar/baz
23:53	clojurebot	:foo/bar/baz
23:53	Bronsa	IIRC (name :foo/bar/baz) returned something in 1.5 and something different in 1.6
23:54	rhg135	:this.is.a.very.very.very.very.very.very.very.very.long/keyword
23:54	sdegutis	Would it be bad on performance to swap a ref's value every 1 second?
23:54	rhg135	probably
23:54	sdegutis	Hmm.
23:54	sdegutis	I was planning on doing that with my database value.
23:54	rhg135	if you're doing so odds are it's not an efficient alogrithm
23:55	sdegutis	Was gonna put (swap! database constantly new-database) inside my insert and update functions.
23:55	sdegutis	Er, (reset! database new-database)
23:55	justin_smith	sdegutis in real life: http://gfycat.com/SecondAdmiredKilldeer
23:56	sdegutis	Wow. so accurate
23:56	rhg135	you program on a surface??
23:56	lazybot	rhg135: Uh, no. Why would you even ask?
23:56	justin_smith	it's the flapping paddle-hands that really captures his essence
23:56	Bronsa	surprisingly accurate indeed.
23:57	rhg135	that reminds me of me when I'm tired
23:57	rhg135	"no thinking, just type faster!"
23:57	sdegutis	Bronsa: it was funny when justin_smith said it because he was being friendly and fun; you're just insulting and that kind of ruins the humor
23:58	sdegutis	justin_smith: do you seriously recommend against doing that tho?
23:58	justin_smith	so you actually meant an atom not a ref I guess
23:59	sdegutis	I haven't determined which one yet.
23:59	sdegutis	The main point is a thing that I can swap out within the context of Compojure handlers (but deeper in the call stack, since it's inside my update/insert functions).
23:59	justin_smith	if you had something wrapping a connection, and each interaction with the db returned a new one, I would consider something like that I guess