#clojure – 2015-08-03

2015-08-03

02:07	ebzzry	what is the equivalent of printing to /dev/stdout in windows, if there is any?
02:59	MasseR	Isn't System.out akin to /dev/stdout?
03:00	MasseR	So just println would do the trick
03:00	MasseR	(and print)
03:26	tmtwd	if I wanted a random number in cljs would I use the clojure random number gen or the javascript random number generator?
03:30	oddcully	tmtwd: if there is nothing the interop one has over the "clojure" one, then i'd use the clojure one
03:30	tmtwd	like (rand-int 30)?
03:31	tmtwd	So I can use clojure libraries in cljs?
03:31	oddcully	well rand(-int) is implemented using JS interop
03:31	oddcully	,(source rand)
03:31	clojurebot	Source not found\n
03:32	oddcully	compare this with the one in your js repl
04:31	pydave6367	Hey all. Beginner at Clojure and after any pointers I can get at making the following one-liner more idiomatic: https://gist.github.com/davekcd/f6f12bee7de11e5acad5 Any help greatly appreciated!
04:48	vijaykiran	pydave6367: (map hash-map (flatten %) [4 3 8 9 5 1 2 7 6]))) << '%' works in anon-functions, typo ?
04:53	pydave6367	vijaykiran: Ah: that was me using it as an anonymous function for the 4clojure solution. Here is what it looked like in the repl before I made it an anonymous function:
04:53	pydave6367	(get (clojure.set/map-invert (apply merge-with + (map hash-map (flatten [[:x :e :o] [:x :e :e] [:x :e :o]]) [4 3 8 9 5 1 2 7 6]))) 15)
04:53	pydave6367	vijaykiran: (also, thanks so much for looking!)
06:49	sheldonh	is count O(1) for a vector?
06:49	hyPiRion	sheldonh: yes
06:50	sheldonh	hyPiRion: ta. is there a document for this? i get a lot of stack overflow when i google, and the documentation of the functions clearly isn't the right place to look
06:57	EuS8yeiF	sheldonh: actually it's exactly the docstrings where complexity of functions is usually written
06:58	sheldonh	EuS8yeiF: often, yes
07:02	sheldonh	Aha! http://clojure.org/data_structures
07:03	oddcully	sheldonh: should be this one: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/838302612551ef6a50a8adbdb9708cb1362b0898/src/jvm/clojure/lang/PersistentVector.java#L204
07:04	sheldonh	oddcully: thanks. hard to argue with that ;)
07:57	gfredericks	TEttinger: so that's an idea for implementing a splittable RNG?
07:58	gfredericks	I think the problem will be how you split the already-split generators
08:28	crocket	I think LEIN_FAST_TRAMPOLINE environment variable doesn't enable trampoline in leiningen.
08:30	crocket	Probably, I should look for grenchmen.
08:30	crocket	Oh, grenchman is dead.
08:34	Leonidas	crocket: is it officially?
08:35	Leonidas	I could actually work on it, come to think of it.
08:35	crocket	I think grenchman is dead because it is written in OCaml and intends to serve clojureists.
08:35	crocket	clojurists
08:36	Leonidas	crocket: it cannot be written in clojure, that would defeat it's purpose.
08:36	Leonidas	in ClojureScript, maybe.
08:36	Leonidas	And OCaml is actually a pretty awesome language
08:37	crocket	But, you can't assume that many clojurists know how to write in OCaml
08:37	Leonidas	crocket: not all clojurists contribute to Leiningen, that doesn't mean it's dead either.
08:38	crocket	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/commits/master tells me there are enough clojurists who contribute to leiningen.
08:38	crocket	For grenchman, there is none.
08:39	crocket	For a given open source project to obtain contributors, it needs to have an enough number of users who know the language of the project.
08:40	crocket	I think grenchman failed because of the language barrier.
08:40	crocket	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/graphs/contributors tells me there have been 267 contributrs to leiningen.
08:41	crocket	For two years, there has been no activity in grenchman.
08:41	crocket	So, it's safe to assume that it's probably dead.
08:41	Leonidas	sure, but being successful is something different from being dead
08:41	Leonidas	*being not successful
08:42	crocket	Ok, my perception was a little bit off.
08:42	crocket	It's almost dead.
08:42	crocket	6 commits over 2 years
08:43	crocket	And, technomancy has ignored 3 pull requests for 2 years.
08:43	Leonidas	ok, that is a good point
08:47	crocket	I hope clojure could be used to write kernels.
08:50	wasamasa	trololol
08:52	wasamasa	some day people will value old code more than new code
09:15	ambrosebs	Bronsa: do you think it's possible to convert jvm.tools.analyzer output to conform to tools.analyzer.jvm?
09:16	ambrosebs	doing some performance testing, it seems worth investigating.
09:20	Bronsa	ambrosebs: not sure I'll have to look at it, might be possile
09:21	ambrosebs	Bronsa: what exactly does :env need to look like?
09:21	ambrosebs	and how important is :form?
09:21	ambrosebs	it seems possible to recreate :form.
09:22	Bronsa	ambrosebs: I seem to recall that Compiler.java does save the form somewhere, might be wrong
09:22	Bronsa	ambrosebs: t.a.jvm uses it to retrieve tag info
09:23	Bronsa	but if it's already annotated by Compiler.java it's not really needed AFAICT
09:23	ambrosebs	ah ok.
09:25	Bronsa	ambrosebs: wrt :env, it should just have :context, :locals, :ns and the source info
09:25	ambrosebs	ok that sounds reasonable.
09:25	Bronsa	ambrosebs: hardest stuff might be converting the locals represetntation of Compiler.java to the locals map used by t.a.jvm in :env
09:26	ambrosebs	what's the rep?
09:26	ambrosebs	oh
09:26	ambrosebs	I was thinking to just make a new one.
09:26	Bronsa	I don't think Compiler.java saves the locals info anywhere, it's just an internal Var that doesn't contain anything when Compiler.analyze returns
09:27	ambrosebs	we could probably recreate :locals with an extra t.a-style pass
09:28	Bronsa	yeah
09:28	ambrosebs	would this have a place in tools.analyzer.jvm if it works out?
09:28	Bronsa	sure
09:29	ambrosebs	ok great. I'll create an issue and chug away.
10:35	justin_smith	sheldonh: regarding complexity of running count, there is the predicate, counted?
10:35	justin_smith	,(counted {})
10:35	justin_smith	err
10:35	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Unable to resolve symbol: counted in this context"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException\n :message "java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: counted in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)"\n :at [clojure.lang.Compiler analyze "Compiler.java" 6611]}\n {:type java.lang.RuntimeException\n :message "Unable to resolve symbol: counted i...
10:35	justin_smith	,(counted? {})
10:35	clojurebot	true
10:35	justin_smith	,(counted? (lazy-seq nil))
10:35	clojurebot	false
10:36	justin_smith	,(counted? (list 1 2 3))
10:36	clojurebot	true
10:36	justin_smith	,(counted? (range))
10:36	clojurebot	false
10:36	justin_smith	if counted? returns true, then the count is stored, and has O(1) lookup for that data
10:37	sheldonh	justin_smith: awesome, thanks
10:37	justin_smith	,(mapv (juxt #(do %) counted?) [nil () [] {}
10:37	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
10:38	justin_smith	,(mapv (juxt #(do %) counted?) [nil () [] {} "" (range) (lazy-seq nil) (list 1)])
10:38	clojurebot	[[nil false] [() true] [[] true] [{} true] ["" false] ...]
10:38	justin_smith	woah, I am surprised that "" is not counted
10:40	justin_smith	I wonder if that's just because nobody extended clojure.lang.Counted to string - because if jvm strings are immutable it would be really silly not to store their size...
10:40	hyPiRion	justin_smith: Counted is an interface, so can't do any magic there.
10:41	hyPiRion	They are constant time however, https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/d534894c3006474068e46b67e4b838bf3727722d/src/jvm/clojure/lang/RT.java#L614
10:41	justin_smith	hyPiRion: ah, got it - if it was a protocol it would be another story I guess
10:41	justin_smith	hyPiRion: right, I was assuming that :)
10:41	hyPiRion	Yeah. We should protocol everything
10:42	sheldonh	seems like it deserves a special case in (counted?)
10:43	justin_smith	yeah, it seems like when you call counted? what you really want to know is if I can call count and get a fast result - or I wish that was what counted? was useful for at least
10:43	justin_smith	similar to seqable
10:43	justin_smith	which isn't actually a function either but should be
10:44	hyPiRion	yeah
10:45	justin_smith	I've just written sequable? based on the source for seq - but that feels a bit off, and potentially needs updating with newer clojure versions
11:01	puredanger	there is one in incubator if you want to compare
11:01	justin_smith	puredanger: oh, cool
11:01	puredanger	https://github.com/clojure/core.incubator/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/incubator.clj#L83
11:01	puredanger	I think there is a ticket to add this to core. if not, there should be.
11:02	puredanger	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-401
11:02	justin_smith	puredanger: yeah, that's really close to what I had
11:02	justin_smith	(inc puredanger)
11:02	lazybot	⇒ 61
11:09	puredanger	Bronsa: oops, looks like I stomped your changes on 401 :)
11:09	puredanger	jira fail
11:10	Bronsa	puredanger: did you mean to remove the example? if so my change doesn't matter :)
11:10	Bronsa	I just wrapped the last example in a {code} block since jira rendered it badly without it
11:10	puredanger	yeah, I didn't think most of the existing description was relevant
11:11	puredanger	I just rescued the example into a comment
11:12	Bronsa	puredanger: while you're here, could you give me your opinion on CLJ-1093? Stuart declined it but I don't think it should be closed
11:12	Bronsa	I know it's an edge case but I can't understand how the fact that (defrecord X []) #user.X[] returns {} shouldn't be considered a bug
11:12	puredanger	Rich considers that the expected behavior
11:13	puredanger	per the same reason as that other ticket
11:13	Bronsa	it's different to the other ticket though
11:13	Bronsa	this one behaviour is not in agreement with what's in the docs
11:15	Bronsa	either that or all record reader-literals should return maps rather than records, not just empty ones
11:17	puredanger	rich's explanation was that records are maps, then see the evaluation page
11:17	Bronsa	puredanger: right, but (defrecord Y [a]) #user.Y[a] returns a record, not a map
11:17	Bronsa	http://sprunge.us/Cjhd?clj
11:18	puredanger	I can bring it up again; I was on a consulting gig last week so wasn't in the conversation
11:19	Bronsa	thanks, that would be appreciated
11:20	puredanger	added it to my notes for next touch point
12:08	kwladyka	which function should i use to update meta? with-meta?
12:09	kwladyka	to update meta based on meta value, so something like for example inc
12:10	depro	Hi, I am trying to make ring.jetty/http-kit non-blocking on long-running requests, but seems like only one request is served at any one time
12:11	depro	https://gist.github.com/anonymous/2277a027cfe27a89a5df
12:11	depro	In jetty, the code above only serves one request at a time
12:12	depro	Similarly I’ve tried looking at http-kit, with-message but it doesn’t work either
12:14	kwladyka	hmm or vary-meta...
12:19	depro	Any ideas how to make ring jetty / http-kit non-blocking?
12:21	depro	It doesn’t need to be non-blocking, as long as it can serve concurrent requests
12:22	justin_smith	depro: jetty should be giving a thread to each request
12:26	kwladyka	,(meta (vary-meta {:safe-squares '([0 0] [1 1] [1 2])} #({:safe-squares (remove #{[0 0]} (:safe-squares %))})))
12:26	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Wrong number of args (0) passed to: PersistentArrayMap"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.ArityException\n :message "Wrong number of args (0) passed to: PersistentArrayMap"\n :at [clojure.lang.AFn throwArity "AFn.java" 429]}]\n :trace\n [[clojure.lang.AFn throwArity "AFn.java" 429]\n [clojure.lang.AFn invoke "AFn.java" 28]\n [sandbox$eval26$fn__27 invoke "NO_SOURCE_FILE" 0]\n ...
12:26	kwladyka	how it should be write correct?
12:26	kwladyka	i want remove from meta :safe-squares [0 0]
12:26	kwladyka	or maybe i just just use with-meta?
12:27	justin_smith	kwladyka: #({}) will always give that error
12:28	justin_smith	kwladyka: because that's a call to {} with zero args
12:28	justin_smith	,'#({})
12:28	clojurebot	(fn* [] ({}))
12:28	kwladyka	so it doesn't see % inside {} ?
12:28	justin_smith	kwladyka: whether % is inside has nothing to do with it
12:28	kwladyka	thx
12:28	justin_smith	look at the expansion above
12:29	justin_smith	({}) is not valid
12:29	justin_smith	use fn instead of the #() shorthand to construct a hash-map
12:30	kwladyka	justin_smith, if you will be whenever in Poland or near tell me, i have to buy a bear for you :)
12:30	justin_smith	(meta (vary-meta {:safe-squares '([0 0] [1 1] [1 2])} (fn [e] {:safe-squares (remove #{[0 0]} (:safe-squares %))})
12:30	justin_smith	,(meta (vary-meta {:safe-squares '([0 0] [1 1] [1 2])} (fn [e] {:safe-squares (remove #{[0 0]} (:safe-squares %))})
12:30	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
12:30	justin_smith	something like that anyway
12:37	devn	Let me describe to you a problem: I create a topic using adminutils, and then immediately create a consumer group to read from that topic at "largest".
12:37	devn	I then produce to it, awaiting the message
12:37	devn	but it never comes.
12:37	devn	It hangs
12:38	devn	If I run it again, and the topic is there, then huzzah, it works
12:38	devn	otherwise, hang hang hang
12:39	kwladyka	justin_smith, i did this as (meta (vary-meta (with-meta {[1 1] :queen} {:safe-squares '([0 0] [1 1] [1 2])}) #(update % :safe-squares (partial remove #{[0 0]}))))
12:42	kwladyka	is any difference in time execution in REPL vs jar file?
12:51	BorePlusPlus	Hello good folks. Probably a very noobish question, but how does one multiple tasks with a single command?
12:51	BorePlusPlus	I can't seem to find documentation on that...
12:51	BorePlusPlus	I am speaking about leiningen ^^^
12:51	BorePlusPlus	noticed I forgot to mention this "little detail"
12:52	kwladyka	BorePlusPlus, i am not sure i understand your question
12:53	kwladyka	BorePlusPlus, i can only guess maybe you are asking about "do" command
12:53	BorePlusPlus	kwladyka: I would like to run somehing like "lein clean uberjar"
12:54	BorePlusPlus	kwladyka: let me lookup do
12:54	kwladyka	oh in lein
12:55	BorePlusPlus	kwladyka: hehe there is a lein do as well - so thanks even if you might have been answering a different question
12:55	kwladyka	BorePlusPlus, you can use :aliases
12:55	BorePlusPlus	kwladyka: :)
12:56	kwladyka	BorePlusPlus, https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj#l204
12:57	BorePlusPlus	kwladyka: yep, but you still need to use "do" https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj#L216
12:57	BorePlusPlus	kwladyka: which you "pointed out" to me - thanks
13:02	kwladyka	np
13:04	kwladyka	Is it possible to see what is inside #object[clojure.core$partial$fn__4529 0x1b7e8fc9 clojure.core$partial$fn__4529@1b7e8fc9] ? i created function and i am not sure what monster i created :)
13:04	kwladyka	is it possible to see this function as code?
13:10	justin_smith	depro: kafka issue?
13:10	justin_smith	err
13:10	justin_smith	devn: kafka issue?
13:11	justin_smith	kwladyka: it is a function generated by partial
13:12	justin_smith	kwladyka: sadly, it doesn't really have a human readable form, but it shouldn't be hard to find where the data came from
13:31	georgeg	has anyone done cider jack-in, have everything load just fine, but then have the repl refuse to evaluate anything? When I hit enter I get a newline.
13:32	georgeg	I've tried updating cider, but besides that nothing has changed since it worked on Friday.
13:39	kwladyka	Do you see how this function can be write more readable? https://www.refheap.com/f19c227dc0b9669eb935a2ebd
13:47	rigji	Hi! I'm making a CRUD webapp, with user accounts. I use postgres, jdbc & friend (for auth). Friend expects a db column :roles, which is a #{set} or :keywords. How can I in a SQL database schema represent a clojure set? Should it be a 'text' column and I serialize every time?
13:48	futuro	isn't there a list type in pgsql?
13:48	justin_smith	rigji: you could form an enum from the valid keywords, then use a collection of that enum
13:49	justin_smith	rigji: unless arbitrary keywords are allowed (which seems odd with a :roles system)
13:50	rigji	justin_smith: I honestly don't know what enum is, but will read up on it. Maybe that is the best solution.
13:50	rigji	futuro: hmm yeah maybe... I didn't know that
13:50	rigji	Having a list seems simple, even it it doesnt map 1:1 with Clojure sets
13:51	futuro	rigji: I'd look into the various types in pg; my first thought is to use a list, but there are a lot of types and I don't know them all
13:53	rigji	futuro: I'm not sure I can find 'list' in pg docs http://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.4/static/datatype.html
13:53	rigji	Maybe I make another table for roles, and then reference that from the Users table
13:57	futuro	what about an array of strings?
13:58	rigji	futuro: that is nice, yeah... Sounds like the most simple solution. I'm trying it out now. Thank you nice people for helping a fella out!
13:59	pepijndevos	Can clojure.java.jdbc do named or indexed parameters?
13:59	futuro	np
13:59	pepijndevos	Or do I have to repeat all inputs in the correct order every time I use them?
14:05	futuro	pepijndevos: have you looked into honeysql or yesql?
14:05	pepijndevos	no
14:06	futuro	it's not quite your question, but I think that's what you want
14:30	justin_smith	gfredericks: so we've discussed structured logging before. I've been setting up a kafka messaging system for our app at work to do some distributed tasks, and I realized that given the fact that I am using transit to encode all my messages, this whole system is simply a very efficient shared logging system, with the bonus features of being fast and allowing flexible client consumption of the data in order.
14:32	justin_smith	gfredericks: after watching some vids from the folks who made kafka, I realized it was a logging system with a few upgrades.
14:32	lambda-smith	Hmmm... slightly off topic here, but what's wrong with Lisp subreddit lately; all these people downvoting any discussion on anything that's not Common Lisp
14:33	justin_smith	lambda-smith: the common lisp community has claimed lisp as their own since at least some time in the '80s
14:33	wasamasa	silly CL mossbacks
14:34	justin_smith	lambda-smith: it kind of makes sense if you look at the history - there were a multitude of lisps, people were constantly porting their favorite parts, and eventually a whole lot of people settled on common lisp and gave up the weird predecessors
14:34	hiredman	there is a certain view, somewhat common to some that use common lisp, that lisp, as a noun, means common lisp
14:34	wasamasa	they've even succeeded on freenode, so there's ##lisp for general discussion
14:34	justin_smith	so to them we are just doing the same re-fragmenting that they already "solved" by making common-lisp
14:34	lambda-smith	but building on older language is how progress are made!
14:35	hiredman	so scheme is not lisp, it is scheme, and clojure is not lisp, it is clojure, but common lisp is lisp
14:35	lambda-smith	there are nothing wrong with experimenting & creating new lisps!
14:35	hiredman	from that view point, content in r/lisp that is not common lisp could be considered off topic
14:35	wasamasa	they also don't believe clojure to be modern or scheme to be elegant
14:35	lambda-smith	In fact, can't they see that having "newer" dialects around also indirectly help common lisp too?
14:35	wasamasa	tsk tsk
14:35	lambda-smith	Maybe I'm just naive.
14:35	hiredman	that sort of misses the point of view
14:36	hiredman	the view point is not that new things are silly and bad (that view may exist too)
14:37	lambda-smith	hiredman: I don't even
14:37	hiredman	the view point is, lisp is an exact label for the language common lisp
14:37	lambda-smith	now that's just narrow mind
14:38	wasamasa	impossibru
14:38	lambda-smith	wasamasa: I guess I will be stoned if I discussed other "lisp" on #lisp too, huh?
14:38	wasamasa	lambda-smith: correct
14:38	wasamasa	lambda-smith: that's one of the reasons I'm not there anymore
14:38	wasamasa	lambda-smith: but I'm still on ##lisp, #scheme, #chicken and #clojure of course, so it's fine
14:38	lambda-smith	damn, what a shame. CL is a nice language, but with these kind of mindsets
14:39	lambda-smith	a damn shame
14:39	hiredman	people carry all kinds of divergent ontologies in their heads
14:40	lambda-smith	well, thanks guys. at least now I know I'm not crazy.
14:40	kwladyka	i will be very glad if you can see https://www.refheap.com/1e743aa3e59c1f1882e5b5333 and https://www.refheap.com/c40523ad6d7839f91afe1349c <- do you see what can i improve to increase performance? I found the same algorithm in scala and i am sure is the same, but works on different structure and use different, because it is another language :) for the same input my clojure algorithm works 43 sec., and scala algorithm 1 sec.
14:40	wasamasa	of course you are, you don't see how they could dare naming CL lisp
14:40	ushabti	<http://x0.no/mcjt> (at www.refheap.com)
14:41	arrdem	Yeah I can also confirm that /r/lisp takes the official stance that "Lisp :: Common Lisp", Schemes and Clojure not welcome
14:41	kwladyka	What can i improve in my functions?
14:41	wasamasa	ushabti: ping
14:41	ushabti	pong
14:41	wasamasa	that one's new
14:41	kwladyka	and did big step for a last time, but still i need to improve something more
14:41	lambda-smith	arrdem: got any suggestion for a better discussion forum where lisp of all dialects are welcome?
14:42	wasamasa	lambda-smith: ##lisp
14:42	wasamasa	lambda-smith: not much going on there though
14:42	lambda-smith	wasamasa: oh, thanks, I didn't notice the double ##
14:42	lambda-smith	joining right now
14:42	arrdem	lambda-smith: here, lobste.rs, /r/clojure is quiet but welcoming
14:42	wasamasa	lambda-smith: I'd love screwing these guys and doing a ban-redirect to put them on #common-lisp
14:42	wasamasa	lambda-smith: but that won't happen, at least not for now
14:43	lambda-smith	wasamasa: :D
14:43	wasamasa	freenode got better things to do than sorting out groups
14:43	lambda-smith	thanks arrdem
14:44	wasamasa	## is for inofficial channels, # is reserved for official projects
14:44	wasamasa	and since lisp is a concept...
14:44	justin_smith	lisp is a state of mind, maaaan
14:44	lambda-smith	wasamasa: oh man, common lisp people are so going to stone you for saying that :D
14:44	justin_smith	ever look at your hand, on lisp?
14:45	wasamasa	only falling tetris blocks, IRC and debugging emacs
14:45	devn	stop playing tetris and write some code!
14:45	wasamasa	actually, I'm writing code for another tetris...
14:46	devn	oh, :)
14:46	arrdem	Yet Another Tetris
14:46	wasamasa	t3tr0s is pretty nice if you want to look at how it could be done properly
14:46	wasamasa	though, it's clojurescript
15:07	kwladyka	Do you recommend any good article about how decrease memory usage in Clojure? I problem of my code is, it consume too much memory https://www.refheap.com/c40523ad6d7839f91afe1349c https://www.refheap.com/1e743aa3e59c1f1882e5b5333
15:08	ushabti	<http://x0.no/mck9> (at www.refheap.com)
15:13	amalloy	whose bot is ushabti? we don't need a url-shortening bot in here for any reason i can see
15:20	amalloy	if nobody wants to claim ushabti and explain why it's useful here i will just ban it
15:20	kwladyka	how check in Clojure how many memory consume data?
15:20	futuro	If I don't have the ability to copy paste or click a link, having a smaller link makes it easier to type by hand
15:21	futuro	Or, alternatively, if the url is incredibly long, a shortener makes it easier to follow
15:21	kwladyka	futuro, but anybody use that in situation when can't use the Internet normally? :)
15:21	futuro	maybe, honestly
15:22	futuro	you might have a very small window for your irc client
15:22	kwladyka	futuro, still i can click this link using mouse ;)
15:22	futuro	perhaps selecting text is cumbersome or slow
15:22	futuro	you can, but that doesn't mean everyone can
15:22	futuro	or even, perhaps, that you will always be able to do so
15:22	kwladyka	futuro, and then is the questin if you can't even click on click do you really want follow this link?
15:23	kwladyka	i don't know, i am using desktop :)
15:23	futuro	I might, to be honest. The link could go to something that sounds pertinent to my interests, or everyone in the channel is talking about it
15:23	futuro	but because of it's length, or my inability to have clicking it follow the link in my browser, or because I can't copy-paste
15:24	futuro	I'd have to type out a long, semi-random/random string to know what everyone is talking about
15:26	futuro	or maybe there's no good option for a web browser on the machine I'm using to connect to irc
15:26	oddcully	well there is also to say, that it does not work properly. the line before had two links. but only one got converted (the first one)
15:26	futuro	oddcully: that's true, though a different issue from banning/removing the bot
15:27	futuro	finding it's owner isn't a bad idea, I just wanted to point out the potential benefits of having a url shortener
15:27	oddcully	next x0 could be Evil™ and try to do vile things to clickers
15:27	futuro	maybe, but the same could be said of the original link
15:28	shaym	Deraen which channel is a good place for compojure-api questions?
15:28	oddcully	refheap is our dear old good friend
15:28	oddcully	no harm could ever come from there
15:29	futuro	what better place to betray someone from than a position of "friendship"
15:29	futuro	</paranoia>
15:31	Deraen	shaym: There is #ring-swagger slack channel and on Irc you can ask questions here
15:32	gfredericks	justin_smith: what do you do if the logging system is unavailable?
15:32	kwladyka	ech... i can't find that... is something like how-many-memory-it-consume([1 1])?
15:32	shaym	Deraen, i see your also on cljs freenode channel , ill ask there
15:32	gfredericks	kwladyka: there's no simple answer
15:33	gfredericks	partly because of structure sharing
15:33	kwladyka	gfredericks, mmm my app consume too much memory, i want check different structures in REPL and check difference
15:34	kwladyka	gfredericks, it can be complex answer, it is better then nothing! :)
15:36	kwladyka	there is nothing like in C++ to check memory? ;)
15:36	opqdonut	you can use jvisualvm's heap profiling
15:39	kwladyka	opqdonut, will i be able to simple compare for example [[0 1 2 3] [0 1 2 3]] with [[0 0] [1 1] [2 2] [3 3]] etc.?
15:41	justin_smith	gfredericks: log a message about it, of course :P
15:42	justin_smith	gfredericks: in all seriousness, one of the features of kafka is its high availability, though of course not as available as local disk
15:42	futuro	One thing I've missed from common lisp programming is that slime/swank allows me to see the state/local vars at every stack in a stack trace; is this possible with the current tooling in clojure?
15:43	futuro	I've looked around a bit, but cider doesn't seem to have this ability, and I haven't seen anything else that has it either
15:43	justin_smith	futuro: to some degree - lazy-seqs make this more complicated than might be immediately obvious (in terms of holding onto very large items, or excessively realizing items)
15:44	justin_smith	futuro: cursive probably has the best tooling for introspective debugging, but newer cider versions have pretty good integration too
15:45	futuro	justin_smith: I'll check out cursive
15:45	gfredericks	justin_smith: yeah I'd think maybe some kind of local disk mediator would be necessary
15:45	justin_smith	gfredericks: right, basically "tee"
15:45	clojurebot	Pardon?
15:45	opqdonut	kwladyka: o, you're not looking for a profiler but a diff tool. how about https://clojuredocs.org/clojure.data/diff ?
15:45	ushabti	Title: diff - clojure.data \| ClojureDocs - Community-Powered Clojure Documentation and Examples (at clojuredocs.org)
15:45	justin_smith	gfredericks: but sine kafka just transmits bytes, and lets you attach whatever converters you like, the combo of that with transit has been realy sweet
15:46	justin_smith	*since
15:46	futuro	I think I'd appreciate a state inspector with stacks, even if it elides some information, like the content of lazy seqs
15:47	justin_smith	gfredericks: basically, I was using it as a queue, but since it outlives an app instance, and it captures all the traffic, it ends up being a log of the last N days of intra-app communication as well
15:49	justin_smith	futuro: yeah - the feature is there (mostly) - though you might have to rely on explicitly turning off locals clearing while debugging iirc
15:49	kwladyka	opqdonut, no, i want compare memory used by this structures :)
15:50	kwladyka	opqdonut, i am using them in i guess millions
15:50	kwladyka	opqdonut, and i am sure i can do that better
15:52	gfredericks	justin_smith: yeah I'd like to be able to play with those tools more
17:00	{blake}	Pulling out the keys from a large list of documents, I'm thinking "(reduce #(into %1 (keys %2)) #{} all)" is better than "(distinct (mapcat keys all))", especially if "all" is a lazy sequence, because in the latter example, the list is fully realized, then iterated over at least twice.
17:03	amalloy	i think everything after your "because" is false, {blake}
17:03	{blake}	What about before? =P
17:03	{blake}	So, the list isn't fully realized and iterated over twice?
17:04	futuro	{blake}: "better" depends on what you're looking for. The second version is shorter and more easily reasoned about, which is one version of "better".
17:06	{blake}	futuro: I'm thinking strictly performance: "all" is a database cursor.
17:06	justin_smith	{blake}: have you tried criterium yet?
17:06	{blake}	So, being wrong could matter.
17:06	{blake}	justin_smith: I have not. Is it a breakfast cereal?
17:07	justin_smith	$google clojure criterium
17:07	lazybot	[hugoduncan/criterium · GitHub] https://github.com/hugoduncan/criterium
17:07	{blake}	Oh, benchmarking. No, I haven't done that yet. I'm on the verge of doing a bunch of it but haven't started quite yet.
17:07	ushabti	Title: hugoduncan/criterium · GitHub (at github.com)
17:07	justin_smith	(dec ushabti)
17:07	lazybot	⇒ -1
17:11	{blake}	But...am I wrong? It seems like "keys" has to realize the sequence. KeySeq is not lazy, right?
17:11	amalloy	{blake}: sure it is. why not?
17:11	justin_smith	{blake}: hash-maps are never lazy, and they are the underlying data for keys
17:11	amalloy	the map underneath is fully realized anyway, as justin_smith says, so it's not terribly important whether keys itself is lazy
17:14	{blake}	OK, I see what I've got wrong. It's a lazy sequence of maps, so it's not the "keys" but the "mapcat" which isn't really different if you're using reduce. Hmmph.
17:21	gratimax	does ring have any spec for websockets?
17:22	{blake}	But...with "(distinct (mapcat keys all))", you get the full sequence of keys, including all the repeated keys, whereas with the reduce, you build your set one record at a time.
17:26	justin_smith	{blake}: you'll get an answer quicker with criterium, if I had your input data I could have run it by now and given you the answer myself
17:27	{blake}	justin_smith: Well, knowing the answer would be fine, and I'll get to that. But I want to be thinking about it correctly (which I wasn't).
17:32	{blake}	One of the interesting things about Clojure to me is that it's both very high level and somewhat low level, too.
17:32	{blake}	Or low-level in places, I guess.
17:37	TEttinger	{blake}, it can be, but that's not common. stuff like amap is there, stuff like transients are there, but they aren't preferred when first developing usually, they're primarily what you refactor code that needs to perform better into using
17:38	TEttinger	lazy seqs aren't super-high-performance, but they're a sensible default most of the time
17:39	{blake}	TEttinger: It's not common, I agree, but I think it's important. And I think that's right.
18:00	sdegutis	What's a good way to transform a tree to be flat but keep references to things inside it?
18:01	sdegutis	Like, if you have {:foo {:bar :quux}}, you would have {1 {:bar :quux}, 2 {:foo 1}]}
18:04	justin_smith	sdegutis: sounds like you want something like an adjacency list?
18:05	sdegutis	Maybe. Is that already in clojure.core or maybe clojure.zip?
18:05	justin_smith	I don't know / don't think so. It would be in one of the graph libs.
18:05	justin_smith	because adj-lists are great for generalized (ie. potentially circular) graphs
18:06	{blake}	sdegutis: That's exactly what I'm doing!
18:10	sdegutis	{blake}: why for?
18:10	{blake}	Mongo->MSSQL
18:10	sdegutis	justin_smith: I'm trying to make a nicer interface to Datomic is why
18:10	sdegutis	{blake}: haha similar reason!
18:12	{blake}	sdegutis: This'll be my second go around. What happens is they drive me nuts talking about trying to make Pentaho do it, and I'm all, "Just give it to me and I'll write the code and nobody has to care what's in the MongoDB".
18:27	nberger	gfredericks: I just opened a PR in test.chuck with a port to cljs: https://github.com/gfredericks/test.chuck/pull/14. I hope it makes sense to you, in that case let me know of anything that needs to me improved
18:32	sdegutis	{blake}: haha
18:36	sdegutis	Transforming trees is terrible.
18:52	justin_smith	maybe this is a good use for zippers?
18:54	{blake}	sdegutis: It puts the "curse" in "recursive".
18:59	sdegutis	What's the best way to parse an INI-like file? Right now I'm using regexp's.
18:59	sdegutis	It's got to be pretty forgiving and flexible about whitespace, and there's very little syntax, most of the file is just arbitrary user-text separated by various types of whitespace and sometimes special characters.
19:00	sdegutis	(like [, ], {, }, etc)
19:00	sdegutis	I tried Instaparse but that seems better suited for more formal grammars right?
19:01	justin_smith	sdegutis: did you check this out? https://github.com/jonase/clojure-ini
19:02	sdegutis	Oh cool, it uses hand-rolled regex-style searching.
19:02	sdegutis	Hmm that sounds like a smarter method than regexp's.
19:02	justin_smith	sdegutis: I don't even see any regexs in the code
19:02	justin_smith	oh, now I get what you mean
19:02	sdegutis	That's what I mean. It searches for the characters manually.
19:02	justin_smith	right
19:02	sdegutis	But really that's all regexp's are.
19:03	justin_smith	regexes are weird hairy little little state machines
19:03	sdegutis	Yep.
19:08	schmir	sdegutis: there's also https://github.com/brainbot-com/clj-iniconfig
19:09	sdegutis	schmir: Very good, thank you.
19:09	sdegutis	schmir: That one uses regexp's :D
19:27	sdegutis	I'm back.
19:47	splunk	anybody using internode messaging like ZMQ rather than HTTP? Found a preferred lib?
19:47	splunk	Trying to build a masterless cluster, Erlang-style.
19:48	justin_smith	splunk: I've started using sente for communication to the browser, and kafka for communicating with the compute backend, and both are working nicely (though kafka was a bit of work to set up and integrate)
19:48	splunk	justin_smith: yeah we are looking at using AWS Kinesis
19:49	justin_smith	I've been liking kafka's design now that I get it - it's like an executable log
19:50	splunk	totally. It seems pretty decomplected from producing and consuming, which is nice
19:51	splunk	seems like it could fit well with some kind of seq or core.async abstraction
19:51	justin_smith	splunk: during dev I can default to picking up only new messages since init, but I can optionally open up and use old messages (to narrow down the cause of an error, for example) which is really sweet
19:51	justin_smith	and yeah, when I read from the app, I immediately put it in a core.async channel
20:47	sdegutis	I ended up with a monster chunk of code, that uses [for, select-keys, assoc, sort-by] in a nested way to "normalize" a tree of maps for testing quality via =
21:13	kavkaz	If i have a binding that I made with the special form "let", is there a way to update it?
21:13	amalloy	no. values are immutable, bindings are immutable
21:14	sdegutis	High-ya!
21:15	kavkaz	amalloy: I see, I guess I haven't gotten the hang of it yet.
21:15	kavkaz	amalloy: I'll keep trying another way.
21:16	amalloy	kavkaz: the answer is generally recursion, whether explicitly written by you, or implicit via a use of some built-in like reduce
21:17	kavkaz	amalloy: I'll try that. I think it just involves more thinking, and checking out the docs a little more too
21:17	kavkaz	thanks
21:25	domokato	is there a way to send some text output to an nrepl client from the nrepl server?
21:26	domokato	like a log
23:04	rola	yo
23:05	rola	does clojure have ad-hoc polymorphism and/or higher-kinder polymorphism
23:06	justin_smith	rola: we don't have higher kinds because clojure isn't strickly typed so those are less useful for us. It does have ad-hoc polymorphism with the help of multimethods and protocols.
23:06	rola	cool, cool
23:07	justin_smith	rola: multimethods for example are capable of dispatching on any arg (usually the first / only arg, but technically you can make it dispatch based on an arbitrary function that takes all the arguments)
23:08	justin_smith	protocols are faster though, because they directly use the ad-hoc method polymorphism of the jvm (so it follows java rules, dispatching on the first arg (the "object"))
23:12	puredanger	protocols are ~5x faster to invoke than a multimethod dispatching on class