#clojure – 2015-07-18

2015-07-18

01:58	crocket	Is there a way to write https://www.refheap.com/106683 better?
02:00	crocket	I mean https://www.refheap.com/106684
02:03	fungle	i don't know if its ok to ask a leiningen question here but i changed the dependence of a project to use clojure 1.7 but when i start the repl it throws compilation erors
02:04	fungle	Retrieving org/clojure/clojure/1.7.0/clojure-1.7.0.pom from central
02:04	fungle	Retrieving org/clojure/clojure/1.7.0/clojure-1.7.0.jar from central
02:04	fungle	Exception in thread "main" java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: create in this context, compiling:(/tmp/form-init3567741596872273906.clj:4199:33)
02:51	crocket	How do I check whether a channel is closed without using <! or <!!?
02:51	crocket	<! is already used in a go-loop
02:53	crocket	It seems only one thread can take a value from a channel at a time.
02:55	crocket	Does clojure.core.async have 'closed?' function?
03:36	crocket	hi
03:36	crocket	I have a sequence of async channels.
03:36	crocket	How do I detect if any of them emits a value?
05:35	crocket	How do I disable ANSI colors in rotor-appender in timbre?
05:37	crocket	Tell me
06:22	maeGh4Ch	So... Is there a tutorial\introduction to om next? I've watched the David Nolen's talk, and he says they have gotten rid of cursors, but the documentation in the om's wiki still describes om with cursors.
06:23	maeGh4Ch	So it makes me think the wiki describes the old version of om. I've tried googling stuff related to "om next", but got nothing.
06:53	wasamasa	if there's nothing like a blog post explaining changes and the upstream docs weren't updated, the sources are going to be your next-best bet
08:28	zophy	can i express on the command line an argument to java that references the clojure.jar as a classpath and also express a class that will compile a provided filename of a clojure source file and then instantiate a jvm with the compiled code being executed ?
08:29	zophy	simply illustrated: "java -cp clojure.jar clojure-compile-and-run code.clj"
09:24	puredanger	Clojure 1.8.0-alpha2 is out https://groups.google.com/d/msg/clojure/LT7vDT6fWxA/OGkR5j3Y3yAJ
09:32	justin_smith	crocket: about the async channels - you can make a mult on one and tap it, the mult will get the same input the channel did
09:48	crocket	justin_smith, a mult?
09:52	crocket	justin_smith, Do I have to close a mult separately from tapped channels?
09:52	crocket	What happens to a mult when tapped channels close?
10:01	puredanger	many libs have already been rewritten to use cljc files and reader conditionals
10:01	puredanger	so: many
10:01	dysfun	i've been holding on on using them in a few of mine
10:01	puredanger	it requires clojure 1.7 as a min bar so it's happened faster than I expected
10:02	dysfun	i bet midje isn't one though
10:04	puredanger	prob not
10:04	dysfun	and it's not :/
10:09	crocket	What is feature expression?
10:09	dysfun	er, we're calling them reader conditionals i think. feature expressions is the lisp name
10:09	crocket	What is it?
10:09	dysfun	but they're reader macros to allow you to provide different code to different compilers (e.g. clojure and clojurescript)
10:10	puredanger	http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Reader+Conditionals
10:10	puredanger	http://danielcompton.net/2015/06/10/clojure-reader-conditionals-by-example
10:13	crocket	Woohoo!!!
10:13	dysfun	i'm looking forward to having a lot more clojurescript libraries available
10:15	crocket	Can I just plug clojure 1.7 in cider and existing projects?
10:19	justin_smith	crocket: yes, you can make cider use whichever clojure version you like
10:19	justin_smith	except maybe not some of the really old ones...
10:21	crocket	good
10:21	crocket	justin_smith, I just want to be notified of closed channels.
10:21	crocket	The channels are used somewhere else.
10:22	justin_smith	crocket: then make a mult, make a go loop that repeats (reading and throwing away) while the channel is not closed, then sends a message when the channel is closed
10:22	justin_smith	I guess
10:23	justin_smith	but why does someone who isn't reading from the channel need to know if it is closed?
10:23	justin_smith	maybe the one sending to the channel should do something special when it is done, instead?
10:27	crocket	The channels signal DDNS updates.
10:28	crocket	If any channel is closed, it means there is a problem, so I need to close the program.
10:28	crocket	When any DDNS updater throws an exception, I should close the associated channel.
10:28	justin_smith	crocket: whoever is reading from the channel is in a loop, right?
10:29	justin_smith	crocket: if so, when the channel closes, it should exit the loop, then send the message that triggers the apropriate notification or recovery
10:29	justin_smith	who better than the one using the channel to trigger some action if the channel closes
10:29	crocket	justin_smith, https://github.com/crocket/clj-ddns-client/blob/master/src/clj_ddns_client/core.clj#L48
10:30	crocket	I currently use another channel to be notified.
10:30	crocket	justin_smith, https://github.com/crocket/clj-ddns-client/blob/master/src/clj_ddns_client/core.clj#L136 is where the program exits.
10:31	justin_smith	crocket: this is where you should be detecting the closed channel https://github.com/crocket/clj-ddns-client/blob/master/src/clj_ddns_client/core.clj#L30
10:31	justin_smith	crocket: turn the when-let into an if-let
10:31	justin_smith	the other arm of the if can send to one of the alarms
10:32	crocket	and?
10:33	crocket	justin_smith, The else clause is executed when chimes is closed.
10:33	justin_smith	crocket: and that means that start-updating! needs to pass a channel into launch-provider-updater!, and launch-provider-updater! can send an alarm on that channel
10:33	justin_smith	crocket: line 30 - that's the only good place to detect the channel close isn't it?
10:33	justin_smith	there's no else clause there
10:34	crocket	justin_smith, If chimes channel is closed, the go-loop exits.
10:34	crocket	go-loop itself returns a channel that signal its exit.
10:34	justin_smith	crocket: what I am saying is if you care about that channel closing, do something about it right there
10:35	crocket	like?
10:35	crocket	https://github.com/crocket/clj-ddns-client/blob/master/src/clj_ddns_client/core.clj#L136 needs to be changed, too.
10:35	justin_smith	OK, so when the go loop exits you get a nil on :updater-ch which is read in -main
10:35	justin_smith	so that means you are detecting closed channels
10:36	justin_smith	what else do you need then?
10:36	crocket	I want to use only :chimes channels to detect close.
10:36	crocket	I want to use only :chimes channels to detect close in -main
10:36	crocket	However, the go-loops read from chimes channels already.
10:37	crocket	If I read chimes from -main, -main will compete with go-loops for :chimes.
10:37	justin_smith	crocket: that's when you need a mult, if you need to read the same channel more than one place
10:37	crocket	This means -main and go-loops read :chimes alternately.
10:37	justin_smith	if the original is closed, all the mults from it are too
10:37	crocket	I am not familiar with mult yet.
10:38	justin_smith	then familiarize yourself - wasn't mult the first thing I suggested?
10:38	crocket	Can I read directly from a mult?
10:38	justin_smith	it returns a new channel that gets all the messages the original does
10:38	crocket	What the hell is tap, then?
10:38	justin_smith	crocket: you create a mult, you make things send to the mult
10:38	crocket	I just need to read from a mult.
10:38	justin_smith	then you use tap, and read from the channels returned from tap
10:38	justin_smith	no, you tap a mult
10:39	justin_smith	the thing returned from mult is what should be written to
10:39	justin_smith	then you use tap to get channels you can read from
10:39	justin_smith	off of the mult
10:39	justin_smith	I was being a bit sloppy talking about it before, sorry, I had assumed you would look it up and figure it out
10:39	crocket	Does it means that chime-ch should use a mult channel in the first place?
10:39	justin_smith	right
10:39	crocket	I read about it.
10:40	crocket	But, I am too sleepy.
10:40	justin_smith	bbl, reading a book
10:41	crocket	It's weird.
10:41	crocket	I create a channel, create a mult from it, and tap the mult to create a new channel.
10:42	justin_smith	crocket: you don't need the initial channel
10:42	justin_smith	make a mult from the channel, send to the mult, use tap to create the channels you will be reading
10:42	dysfun	justin_smith: an ebook though, right? we wouldn't want you walking away from a screen ;)
10:43	justin_smith	dysfun: actual book!
10:43	dysfun	like made of dead tree and everything?
10:43	justin_smith	yeah, I know, it's barbaric
10:43	dysfun	it is, but you won't notice until you decide to move house/apartment
10:47	crocket	justin_smith, Why do you waste the original channel?
10:47	crocket	doesn't make sense
10:54	crocket	justin_smith, Do you usually read directly from a mult?
11:00	crocket	It seems I better not use a mult now.
11:01	kungi	justin_smith: actual book is the best kind of book! :-)
11:03	kungi	Can someone help me in making this code sinppet a bit more readable: https://gist.github.com/Kungi/19ffc88c4f1acf40f1c5
11:06	dysfun	why do you want them as keywords?
11:06	kungi	dysfun: why not?
11:06	dysfun	well keywords are usually used where you're going to provide what is essentially a known string key
11:07	dysfun	i'd just leave them as integers for the keys
11:07	dysfun	,(reduce (fn [acc {:keys [role infocenter_id]}] (assoc acc infocenter_id (keyword role))) {} [{:role "SITE-ADMIN" :infocenter_id 2} {:role "SITE-ADMIN" :infocenter_id 3}])
11:07	clojurebot	{2 :SITE-ADMIN, 3 :SITE-ADMIN}
11:08	dysfun	otherwise you're going to have to turn all your id numbers into keywords before you look them up
11:09	kungi	dysfun: I actually do this. But the result is only used in one location.
11:09	dysfun	seems like you're adding an unnecessary step, but you should be able to adjust the above if you want to keep it that way
11:10	kungi	dysfun: using integers makes more sense. I will refactor this. Thank you! :-)
11:10	dysfun	yw :)
11:11	crocket	Ok, I got the hang of mult.
11:16	kungi	dysfun: This is so much more pleasant to read.
11:17	dysfun	kungi: well it only does the necessary work :)
11:17	dysfun	clojure's collection functions are your friend, and there are lots of them to help shorten your code
11:17	dysfun	http://conj.io/ is a good reference
11:20	crocket	hell
11:20	crocket	clojure 1.7 rocks.
11:21	puredanger	How so?
11:40	crocket	It just does.
11:40	crocket	justin_smith, In clojure 1.7.0, the original channel should be written to, and the tapped channels should be read from.
11:40	crocket	The mult is not needed after creating taps.
11:41	puredanger	Oh, well no argument from me :)
11:43	crocket	Can clojure be used as an embedded language?
11:45	crocket	I want to just add clojure scripts to any JVM program on the run.
11:45	dysfun	there's even a library that injects a clojure repl into your process :)
11:47	crocket	no
11:47	dysfun	clojure is just a library, you can do whatever you'd do with a library
11:47	crocket	xchat has python script modules.
11:48	crocket	I wonder if I can add clojure script modules to a JVM program.
11:48	justin_smith	crocket: the clojure language is a java library, and cannot be used in the jvm without the full clojure compiler
11:49	justin_smith	crocket: you can include clojure in a java project, but that requires the full language
11:49	crocket	ok
11:49	crocket	If I include the full compiler, can I add clojuer script modules to JVM programs?
11:51	dysfun	why wouldn't you be able to?
11:52	crocket	Is there a pre-existing library for that?
11:52	justin_smith	crocket: sure, but they aren't really "scripts" per se - clojure is a compiler, it generates jvm bytecode which can then be invoked via the clojure api
11:53	dysfun	crocket: yes, i wrote one https://github.com/irresponsible/oolong
11:53	justin_smith	crocket: clojure.java.api http://clojure.github.io/clojure/javadoc/clojure/java/api/package-summary.html
11:54	dysfun	loading bits of code at runtime is not as straightforward as you might think, there are all sorts of gotchas
11:54	justin_smith	dysfun: wait, how is oolong related to using clojure from java?
11:55	amalloy	justin_smith: you don't think crocket meant cljs on the jvm?
11:55	dysfun	justin_smith: it's not, it's related to the other thing he said, having scripts
11:55	justin_smith	OK, maybe I don't understand what you guys mean by scripts
11:55	justin_smith	amalloy: oh, maybe...
11:57	dysfun	justin_smith: plugins need some sort of way of obtaining resources in a dependency-driven fashion. oolong solves that part
11:58	dysfun	and i might one day get around to finishing it's big sister library which supports loading plugins packaged as jars
13:18	bitpimp_	brew is installing leiningen 2.5.0… good version?
13:20	justin_smith	bitpimp_: it's OK, but it's a bit silly to use brew for lein
13:20	justin_smith	bitpimp_: lein is a single shell script, and is better at managing deps than brew is
13:20	bitpimp_	ah ok… felt a little guilty, to be honest.
13:20	bitpimp_	I'll install it the proper way then.
13:20	scriptor	yeah, it's more straightforward to just put the lein script in some place you control
13:20	justin_smith	bitpimp_: lein knows how to upgrade itself, yeah
13:20	justin_smith	exactly
13:21	bitpimp_	attempting to abort the angular nightmare I'm getting into on a work job and wondering if I can somehow get the somewhat simple app working in clojure. ;-)
13:22	bitpimp_	tall order, given my lack of knowledge, by hey, it's still just Saturday.
13:22	justin_smith	bitpimp_: cool - if you are replacing angualr I assume you'll be using cljs?
13:22	bitpimp_	that was the plan.
13:22	justin_smith	bitpimp_: if so, definitely check out figwheel and reagent
13:22	justin_smith	it's a pretty slick setup once it's working
13:22	bitpimp_	cool… was thinking of reagent. don't tell Alan.
13:22	justin_smith	heh
13:38	bitpimp_	I just think I can possibly sell my company on React instead of Angular to start, but not a non-React approach.
13:38	justin_smith	bitpimp_: react is so much better than the other options...
13:39	bitpimp_	oh totally… looking forward to it. just that the next step in this set of stairs is 10' tall. ;-)
13:45	kavkaz	Hey guys, the project that I'm doing for an independent research position under my professor involves machine learning. I don't really know much about AI or machine learning, but my professor recommended me to look into Lisp-derived languages
13:47	kavkaz	So I chose clojure because it is a Lisp language (if I'm correct in saying that) and it seems powerful. Anyways, I wanted to get into machine learning, what is a simple challenge I could do to start? Is clojure a good language for this?
13:56	arrubin	kavkaz: There are always the Kaggle challenges.
13:56	arrubin	This book is available: http://www.amazon.com/Clojure-Machine-Learning-Akhil-Wali/dp/1783284358
13:56	arrubin	I do not believe that Clojure is a popular option for this though.
13:57	kavkaz	arrubin: Hmm... interesting. What would you say is a popular option for this?
13:57	arrubin	Should be able to use things like Spark though.
13:57	arrubin	kavkaz: Python, at least for initial implementation.
13:57	kavkaz	arrubin: I see.
13:58	arrubin	I am not trying to dissuade you from using Clojure for this.
13:58	arrubin	http://www.mikeivanov.com/post/116884531461/machine-learning-with-clojure-and-spark-using
13:58	arrubin	Clearly people are doing it.
13:58	arrubin	But it is nowhere near as popular as things like Python.
14:00	kavkaz	arrubin: I've watched Rich Hickey's talk about Clojure at JavaOne. He said that some things can be done much more easily in Clojure than Java. Interesting thing is that I've made a code parser in Java for my project (it analyzes Java code, extracts methods, etc) and it's quite long. Is one of those scenaries that Clojure would make things easier in? Say if I tokenized everything, then used Clojure to
14:00	kavkaz	recognize the syntax of the tokens?
14:00	justin_smith	machine learning, AKA statistics
14:01	justin_smith	(OK, that might be a bit unfair)
14:01	bitpimp	what is the site Jon Pither was part of building, again? the real estate site?
14:02	arrubin	kavkaz: Parsing lisps is far easier. I am not sure about parsing other languages in lisps. If you ask people who like a language they are probably going to tell you that it is easier.
14:03	justin_smith	kavkaz: we have tools in clojure that parse and analyze clojure syntax
14:03	justin_smith	kavkaz: also, the reading and compilation steps are separate, so it is straightforward to read some forms, perform some data transform on them, then compile the result
14:04	justin_smith	kavkaz: so objectively this is much easier than the java equivalent would be
14:05	justin_smith	kavkaz: unless you mean you have to accept java input? not sure what your task is here
14:06	kavkaz	I input a Java class. The code is tokenized, and I identify the methods within the class, their arguments, their return value
14:08	justin_smith	you want a java paraser then, there's probably a good java one that you could use from clojure
14:08	arrubin	There are standard libraries for accessing the Java compiler and walking the AST and such.
14:08	arrubin	In Java that is.
14:08	justin_smith	kavkaz: what about using the compiled code? we have good tools for working with the bytecode
14:08	justin_smith	and getting things like method calls, arguments, return types
14:09	kavkaz	justin_smith: I want to use the same application for both Java and C# code. The syntax is almost the same but some keywords may be different. But this is why I want to use the code rather than the compile java code
14:20	kavkaz	justin_smith, arrubin, thank you both! I will look more into what I can do with clojure.
14:21	arrubin	bitpimp: OnTheMarket.com?
14:21	justin_smith	kavkaz: I could easily see trying to parse both java and c# with the same code turning into a much harder problem than anticipated
14:22	bitpimp	or rightmove.co.uk?
14:22	bitpimp	just wanted to show someone a successful clojure project, and just watched his talk.
14:23	arrubin	bitpimp: https://uk.linkedin.com/pub/jon-pither/1/649/393
14:24	arrubin	He claims to have completed a few projects in Clojure.
14:24	arrubin	I believe that Room Key uses Clojure.
14:24	arrubin	I know there are others.
14:24	arrubin	People are not very loud about it.
14:25	arrubin	http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Clojure+Success+Stories
14:25	arrubin	http://cognitect.com/clojure#successstories
14:28	kavkaz	justin_smith: Yep. Could you see yourself doing this in Clojure though?
14:29	arrubin	kavkaz: If it makes a difference, Clojure runs on both the JVM and the CLR.
14:33	bitpimp	@arrubin onthemarket.com… you were right.
14:33	bitpimp	@arrubin that site will help me convince colleagues and various people clojure is viable for real projects ( a foregone conclusion, here, I'm sure )
14:34	arrubin	bitpimp: Take a look at the two success stories links, especially the Cognitect one.
14:34	arrubin	I actually know of an even better example. One moment.
14:34	bitpimp	@arrubin cool
14:37	bitpimp	@arrubin roomkey is pretty tight, too.
14:38	arrubin	http://gotocon.com/chicago-2013/presentation/Lisp%20and%20Cancer
14:38	arrubin	He gave the talk at another conference before, but I cannot find a good video.
14:40	bitpimp	@arrubin that's a fantastic link for me, bc I work at a company that does so-called big data stuff (in spark/hadoop/storm/etc) and so this is more similar
14:42	arrubin	You could also look over the talks from the last few years at Clojure/conj and Clojure West and find other examples.
14:42	arrubin	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xlyWjqFDWs&index=18&list=PLZdCLR02grLoc322bYirANEso3mmzvCiI
14:43	arrubin	I have not watched that, but it seems relevant.
14:44	bitpimp	@arrubin this weekend's clojurescript foray is the result of having to get deeper into angular for a front-end, for an Spark prediction engine for infections in hospitals
14:44	arrubin	Interesting.
14:44	bitpimp	I'm not particularly enjoying Angular, partly bc I'm not a front-end dev
14:44	arrubin	Yeah, I do not like to get involved in front-end work.
14:44	bitpimp	@arrubin but the cancer project link is helpful being in healthcare as well
14:45	bitpimp	@arrubin if I can use clojure for the front-end though it might be more tolerable
14:45	arrubin	Perhaps. I have not tried it.
14:47	arrubin	bitpimp: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8P3GQI1iQA&list=PLZdCLR02grLp__wRg5OTavVj4wefg69hM&index=7
14:47	bitpimp	@arrubin oh man, that is sweet
14:48	bitpimp	@arrubin perfect
15:00	kungi	/query #clojure-emacs
15:01	kungi	m(
15:10	whomp	is there any good documentation on working with 2 or more dimensional sequences in clojure? problems like http://www.4clojure.com/problem/138 have me wanting to go imperative
15:13	justin_smith	whomp: you can use arrays in clojure, and if the arrays don't leave the body of your function (eg. they are only used internally, and all inside one thread) your code is still functional.
15:14	justin_smith	whomp: that said, you can usually figure out something good using recursion and / or update-in for nested sequences
15:15	justin_smith	also, that's a hard problem
15:15	justin_smith	(in clojure especially)
15:19	egogiraffe	as a little side to talking about multi-dimensional sequences like that, i was recently spending time thinking about how to best/most idiomatically implement a game board for a game i'm writing in clojure. obviously my mind first went to well, 2d array, but ended up getting passed that to thinking about it as a map keyed by row col position, with the value being the relevant information about the piece
15:19	kwladyka	i have special file console_draw.clj which i use to debug app, this file "translate" data into graphical form to be more human readable. It is not part of "src" and not part of "test". What i know i should put this file into something like "dev" folder and add this folder into dev profile in project.clj? Yes?
15:19	egogiraffe	occupying it. is this a reasonable approach, in people's opinions?
15:20	kwladyka	If yes i added in project.clj :profiles {:dev {:source-path "dev"}} but when i have open this file in intellij it has marked as error everything
15:20	kwladyka	in this file
15:20	justin_smith	egogiraffe: with nested vectors you can easily do indexed lookup with get-in
15:20	kwladyka	what am i doing wrong?
15:21	whomp	hey my computer crapped out right after i asked my question, did anyone post anything about resources for multi-dimensional stuff?
15:21	justin_smith	kwladyka: the proper key is :source-paths
15:22	justin_smith	whomp: we have core.matrix for matrix stuff, or you can use get-in / update-in with nested vectors, or you can use mutable arrays, your code is still functional if they don't leave the thread or function scope
15:23	whomp	justin_smith, cool thx :)
15:23	egogiraffe	justin_smith: hm, yeah, i had also thought about nested vectors, was just reading the chapter on collections in JoC. i might end up going either way, or both ways, in writing it, since it's largely exploring writing something larger in clojure, have only put together a few tiny toys thus far.
15:24	kungi	Does anyone of you know emacs and helm and cider a bit and would like to help me write "helm-cider-history"? I am currently very much stuck.
15:24	justin_smith	,(get-in [[1 2 3][4 5 6][7 8 9]] [1 1])
15:24	clojurebot	5
15:24	justin_smith	,(update-in [[1 2 3][4 5 6][7 8 9]] [1 1] + 42)
15:25	clojurebot	[[1 2 3] [4 47 6] [7 8 9]]
15:25	kwladyka	justin_smith, with :source-paths it doesn't work too
15:25	kwladyka	to be more precise, i am using this file only in repl for now if it changes something
15:25	justin_smith	kwladyka: also the arg needs to be in a vector
15:25	justin_smith	:source-paths ["dev"]
15:36	kwladyka	intellij say "file console_draw.clj is not under a source root
15:36	kwladyka	and "add source root" "add test root"
15:41	kwladyka	and another question namespace of this file should be dev.console-draw or dev.app-name.console-draw or app-name.console-draw?
15:52	arrubin	https://twitter.com/ieure/status/614130731770617856
15:52	arkh	repost ; ) It's good though
15:52	kwladyka	ok it works :)
15:52	kwladyka	thx
17:26	rhg135	can I use datamoic in a public domain work as long as I don't include any datmoic code, or do I need to hack around sql?
17:54	arkh	rhg135: yes https://my.datomic.com/downloads/free
17:54	rhg135	cool, thanks arkh
17:56	alchemis7	Is there any clojure version of gRPC yet? (http://www.grpc.io/)
18:04	mainframer	/msg NickServ identify
18:17	rs0	what are the go-to Clojure libraries these days for creating web services?
18:24	wasamasa	ring, compojure, hiccup, ...
18:25	ed-g	rs0, I'm happy with liberator
18:33	rhg135	is there any function similar to clojure.core/load, but returns the last form as load-file?
18:36	arkh	rhg135: read-string, if you slurp from a file ahead of time
18:37	rhg135	this is on the classpath though
18:37	rhg135	not an absolute path
18:39	arkh	does 'resource' fit your needs?
18:40	rhg135	oh right
18:40	rhg135	you can slurp an url
18:41	rhg135	thx arkh
18:46	rhg135	read-string returns the first form arkh
18:49	rhg135	also this is actual code
19:30	Fare	hi
19:30	Fare	I updated clojure to 1.7.0, and I get weird messages when I try to lein repl
19:31	Fare	CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such var: user/help, compiling:(/tmp/form-init4536175725656162830.clj:1:11084)
19:31	Fare	also, lein test works great but lein repl fails to find tools.trace
19:36	Fare	also, I have a Exception in thread "main" java.io.IOException: File name too long, compiling:(pyjure/desugar.clj:371:25)
19:37	Fare	line 371 column 25 is a match statement :-(
19:40	vas	Fare: like a regex?
19:40	amalloy	Fare: are you using an encrypted filesystem? if you have very deeply nested lambdas, the classname generated can be too long for your fs to accept; in practice i have only seen this happen to someone on an encrypted filesystem (which does some weirdness that leads to longer filenames)
19:41	Fare	like core.match
19:41	amalloy	yes, i expect the macros in core.match would expand to quite a lot of lambdas
19:41	Fare	the block device is encrypted, but the filesystem doesn't know that.
19:42	amalloy	you would think so, but then again a stranger on the internet just guessed that your disk is encrypted
19:55	gfredericks	~amalloy is a stranger on the internet
19:55	clojurebot	Roger.
19:56	amalloy	gfredericks: i have some candy if you want
19:57	gfredericks	amalloy: I'm not worried all I have to do is never tell you my last name or what state I live in
19:57	amalloy	also stay out of chat rooms
19:58	gfredericks	a/s/l
19:59	amalloy	those were the days
20:00	gfredericks	now it's s/l/a/c/k
20:01	gfredericks	which looks similar if you squint
20:02	Fare	it's not that hard to guess that a disk is encrypted. A lot of developers encrypt their disk. Beware the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.
20:03	Fare	I'll just suppose that clojure 1.7 + core.match makes AOT unhappy because of long function names, without any interference with block device encryption, which seems preposterous.
20:04	YeffGoldblum	What does everyone develop on besides emacs? (If anything...haha)
20:05	Fare	ouch, AOT seems to hate UTF-8 characters in function names :-(
20:05	Seylerius	YeffGoldblum: Emacs is the only thing worth developing on.
20:05	Fare	is that new with clojure 1.7 ? I hadn't noticed before, but then again, lein repl was not using AOT
20:06	rs0	meanwhile, in the 21st century, lots of people like Cursive
20:06	amalloy	rs0: dogma is more exciting than pragmatism, alas
20:06	amalloy	Fare: no
20:06	Fare	real hackers don't use emacs — they use unxz to reduce the amount of typing needed.
20:06	Seylerius	Except it's proprietary, and you can duplicate most if not all of its features in Emacs.
20:09	rs0	let's not pretend that setting up vim or emacs to have a subset of IDE features is anything other than an ordeal
20:10	rs0	to rich hickey's point, when you tell someone "oh just use emacs," you're handing them a soldering iron
20:11	Seylerius	I like my soldering iron, thank you very much.
20:12	amalloy	Seylerius: you're entitled to like your soldering iron. i do too. but it's also not very helpful to tell people that using anything else makes you not a real programmer
20:12	Seylerius	Fair enough.
20:13	Seylerius	They're still real programmers. They're just in proprietary-ville.
20:13	rs0	it's not even a very good text editor. it gives you RSI
20:14	rs0	fervent emacs fandom correlates like nothing i've ever seen with carpal tunnel syndrome
20:17	uptown	hashtag assumes facts not in evidence
20:17	rs0	http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/RepeatedStrainInjury
20:17	rs0	http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/emacs_hand_pain_celebrity.html
20:19	uptown	so, you know, _2_, circa 20 years ago.
20:19	vas	I have a datomic key that I copied to my box but it is not working with gpg. Is it not the correct way to scp a credentials.clj.gpg over? does it need to be generated on the box?
20:28	whomp	how can i mutate a transient list? i tried (set! i new-val list) but no dice
20:28	rs0	whomp: that's not what set! is for
20:28	Seylerius	whomp: Try assoc!
20:28	whomp	thx guys :)
20:28	rs0	whomp: you basically write code using persistent collections and then change assoc to assoc! and so on
20:28	rs0	conj becomes conj!
20:28	whomp	ok cool
20:29	rs0	remember that you have to use the return value
20:29	rs0	just like with persistent collections
20:29	rs0	it's not like an ArrayList or something where update operations just return 'void'
20:30	Seylerius	rs0: Do you /have/ to use the return value, or is it simply that it /does/ return the collection?
20:31	rs0	Seylerius: you /have/ to
20:31	Seylerius	Because if you have to, how is it mutating anything
20:31	rs0	Seylerius: a conj! on a transient vector may allocate a new array, and only the returned transient will reference it
20:32	rs0	Seylerius: try it for yourself. conj! stuff in-place to a transient. it'll grow to about 8 or 16 elements and then silently drop everything after that
20:32	Seylerius	Wow.
20:32	Seylerius	What's the point of being able to mutate it, then?
20:32	rs0	Seylerius: take it from someone who's done it https://github.com/rschmitt/dynamic-object/commit/60cfe0d289d71fa7e9acedf0cab98828b18be3d5
20:33	rs0	Seylerius: because it's about an order of magnitude faster to build up a new collection from elements
20:33	Seylerius	Ah, speed. Okay, that's a valid reason.
20:33	Seylerius	And then mess with it like normal once you've speed-built it
20:33	Seylerius	?
20:34	rs0	Seylerius: yeah. ArrayList works the same way internally when its buffer fills up, it just encapsulates the reallocate-and-copy
20:34	amalloy	Seylerius: transients don't promise to mutate; rather, they don't promise not to mutate
20:34	rs0	Seylerius: i've written a handy dandy Java wrapper for clojure's persistent and transient collections https://github.com/rschmitt/collider
20:35	rs0	in case you like java... or your employer does
20:36	rs0	but if you look at the Transient wrappers, they encapsulate this stuff and just return void
20:36	rs0	amalloy: transients also used to enforce thread-local usage
20:36	rs0	amalloy: they put a stop to that in clojure 1.7 for performance reasons
20:37	rs0	and also because there are legitimate and safe reasons to use a transient from more than one thread
20:38	irctc1901	Why is there an arity-1 equality? Has anyone here ever used it?
20:38	rs0	irctc1901: does it return a transducer?
20:39	irctc1901	no
20:39	Seylerius	Interesting. So spool memory-intensive colls up through transients, then use normal functions and let them accidentally get turned into persistents?
20:40	rs0	Seylerius: accidentally?
20:41	Seylerius	Heh. Just as a matter of using coll-producing functions.
20:41	Seylerius	Like map it or something.
20:42	irctc1901	rs0: is Seylerius comment related to mine
20:42	rs0	,(doc =)
20:42	Seylerius	irctc1901: Unlikely.
20:42	clojurebot	"([x] [x y] [x y & more]); Equality. Returns true if x equals y, false if not. Same as Java x.equals(y) except it also works for nil, and compares numbers and collections in a type-independent manner. Clojure's immutable data structures define equals() (and thus =) as a value, not an identity, comparison."
20:42	rs0	,(source =)
20:42	clojurebot	Source not found\n
20:43	rs0	irctc1901: weird. it just returns 'true' for all values of x
20:43	rs0	irctc1901: oh, i know why
20:43	rs0	irctc1901: it's for reduction
20:43	irctc1901	give me a 5 word description?
20:44	rs0	hm, maybe not. i don't know!
20:44	irctc1901	ok, interesting, thanks!
20:44	amalloy	irctc1901: honestly it should have a 0-arity version too, which should also be true
20:45	rs0	amalloy: that's what i was thinking, vis-a-vis reducing functions
20:45	amalloy	so you can write stuff like (apply = coll) to see if all items in the coll are the same
20:45	rs0	irctc1901: it was specifically added by rich himself in commit c4d6cb54b923f71bf80755ccb7fbbc62d0891a0e
20:45	irctc1901	bam fantastic example, I understand now
20:46	irctc1901	can/should I submit a pull req for that (now that you've mentioned it)
20:46	irctc1901	(and perhaps a mention of this usage in the doc string....applying to colls)
20:47	amalloy	no, it will never happen unless rich himself decides to do it on his own. it's not a new suggestion
20:47	rs0	irctc1901: i dunno, you can define a monoid over the booleans in at least two useful different ways
20:48	rs0	irctc1901: (true, and) and (false, or)
20:48	amalloy	rs0: right, but...so what? true is still the identity for =
20:48	amalloy	just like ##(every? even? []) is true
20:48	lazybot	⇒ true
20:49	rs0	hm, and the identity for not= would be false?
20:51	amalloy	right
20:51	amalloy	"are any of the elements in this empty collection different from one another? no"
20:54	tomjack	what does "identity for =" mean?
20:55	rs0	tomjack: for all values of xs, (apply = xs) is equals to (= true (apply = xs))
20:55	rs0	i think that's basically the gist of it
20:56	rs0	it's like how 1 is the identity for multiplication
20:56	rs0	and 0 is the identity for addition
20:57	bitpimp	flappy bird, running: check!
20:57	tomjack	interesting
20:57	bitpimp	very cool.
20:58	bitpimp	figwheel rocks.
20:58	amalloy	well, "identity for =" is certainly the wrong wording
21:02	mcint__	wrong? Unfamiliar or unusual, but isn't = just another function (in the context of clojure)
21:02	mcint__	it holds no priviledged place in syntax
21:02	gfredericks	he's probably saying "identity" as used in algebra doesn't really fit here
21:02	gfredericks	like when talking about a monoid
21:03	mcint__	ok, I see the language mismatch
21:04	amalloy	identity for = would mean that (= true x) is the same as x
21:04	amalloy	thish is only true for the two values true and false
21:11	mcint__	so, since ='s input and output domain don't match, you could only call it an identity for inputs restricted to {true, false}
21:11	mcint__	...actually, not even that
21:11	mcint__	(= false) => true ? no?
21:12	tomjack	I guess the rule is "push negation under quantifiers", and then whether true or false is 'the identity' depends on whether the resulting quantifier is ∀ or ∃ ?
21:14	gfredericks	for monoids the identity is returned by the 0-arg arity, but ##(=)
21:14	lazybot	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core/=
21:15	tomjack	so (not<=) is false, (>) is true, but otherwise not<= and > agree? :)
21:18	mcint__	gfredericks: as amalloy has said, true is not an/the identity for =
21:19	gfredericks	yeah I was just saying another thing
21:20	mcint__	ok, and by extension, saying that the language Is doing the correct thing now for 0-arity
21:21	amalloy	gfredericks: too late. you're now stuck in this conversation. everything you say for the rest of your life will be interpreted in the context of the identity element for =
21:21	gfredericks	is this an identity crisis?
21:22	gfredericks	(= this identity-crisis)?
21:23	tomjack	I don't think I had ever heard of clojure/boot.clj
21:23	rs0	tomjack: yeah, they changed the name to core.clj
21:24	tomjack	I guess (=) disappeared in the same commit as boot.clj?
21:24	rs0	was there ever a 0-arity variant?
21:25	tomjack	uhh, doesn't the c4d6cb54b923f71bf80755ccb7fbbc62d0891a0e you pointed out contain them?
21:25	mcint__	(and how are you performing your search? git log -S ??)
21:26	tomjack	yeah, I tried `git log -p -S '([x] true)'` but failed to find when it disappeared
21:27	tomjack	oh, d'oh. I knew I was confused :)
21:27	rs0	git blame **/core.clj
21:27	rs0	the commit i referenced just adds 1-arity variants. i didn't say anything about 0-arity variants
21:27	tomjack	([x] true) is 1-ary, not 0-ary...
21:41	gfredericks	just to make the conversation more confusing I should point out that ##(- 42)
21:41	lazybot	⇒ -42
21:46	bitpimp	can anyone direct me to an example of actual clojure code from a large scale project? not clojure libraries, but rather, the kind of code used on something along the lines of roomkey or soundcloud or the like. I'm curious to see how it ends up looking once you move beyond tutorial code.
21:47	bitpimp	obviously, those are closed projects, which why I'm asking for something equivalent and representative.
21:48	bitpimp	languages like java look messy partly because of the inherent messiness of the domains, and I want to see how much clojure mitigates that.
21:49	bitpimp	also, how intelligible it is… huge java names can be helpful in messy domains, horrible as they are.
21:53	rs0	bitpimp: i don't think they're directly comparable. for starters, a Clojure code base will typically be quarter or a fifth the size of the functionally equivalent Java code base, in terms of lines of code
21:54	rs0	bitpimp: furthermore, Clojure places a heavy cultural and technical emphasis on reuse and composition
21:56	rs0	bitpimp: here's an example that comes to mind of weirdly readable Clojure code that solves a very, very hard problem https://github.com/krajj7/BotHack/tree/master/src/bothack
21:57	rs0	bitpimp: in a highly complicated domain
21:57	rs0	i think this was written over the course of a year as part of a master's thesis
21:58	rs0	it's the most Clojure code i've ever seen in one place (non-library)
22:02	rs0	17k lines, according to a quick line count. you could credibly claim that the Java equivalent of this code would be at least 70,000 lines, which puts it roughly in the same order of magnitude as Tomcat's servlet container implementation. large-scale enough?
22:05	amalloy	cool, i didn't realize there was a video of the ascension
22:07	uptown	what's the toughest problem that core.logic has been applied to? anyone got an interesting link?
22:12	gfredericks	uptown: I used it for the 2d layouts of http://gfredericks.com/gfrlog/98
22:13	gfredericks	I don't think I've ever heard of it being used for something serious in a really compelling way
22:14	uptown	gfredericks: thanks, interesting
23:06	virmundi	hello. is Midje still in vogue?
23:11	amalloy	it's as vague as it's always been
23:11	justin_smith	it remains controversial
23:32	justin_smith	,(defn h [] (->> 'clojure.core ns-publics keys shuffle (take 2) (#(str (first %) '-in- (second %))) symbol))
23:32	clojurebot	#'sandbox/h
23:32	justin_smith	,(repeatedly h)
23:32	clojurebot	(fn-in-pmap frequencies-in-constantly push-thread-bindings-in-reductions my-doc-in-re-matcher unchecked-dec-in-butlast ...)
23:33	justin_smith	that last one sounds saucy
23:33	justin_smith	unchecked? you rogue you
23:33	justin_smith	,(repeatedly h)
23:33	clojurebot	(error-mode-in-keyword? complement-in-print-dup ns-in-aset-short set-error-mode!-in-reset-meta! reader-conditional?-in-dorun ...)
23:34	bitpimp	@rs0 thanks! I'll take a look at that code. I understand clojure is definitely smaller in size. I'm just curious how it looks when it gets used on real life junk like a lot of Java does (transactional processing of employee records or so on)… roomkey would probably involve a lot of that. but I'm super interested in the link you sent… thanks!
23:45	crocket	yahoo