#clojure – 2015-06-06

2015-06-06

00:29	amalloy	luxbock: (defmacro on-error-goto-next ...)
00:42	luxbock	(into {} x) is always eager right?
00:42	luxbock	i.e. I don't have to wrap the for in (into {} (for [...])) into a doall
00:43	justin_smith	luxbock: iirc into is as strict as the data structure, since it is just apply conj
00:43	luxbock	ah ok
00:43	justin_smith	$source inot
00:43	lazybot	Source not found.
00:43	justin_smith	$source into
00:43	lazybot	into is http://is.gd/caQYZB
00:44	justin_smith	well not just reduce conj, but essentially :)
00:44	luxbock	right, I should've known that
03:00	spacepluk	hi, is there any way to get a repl running on ios with lein-fruit?
03:15	Viesti	hum, which is more idiomatic, (clojure.string/join "" xs) or (apply str xs)?
03:29	alexyakushev	If you need it once per namespace, apply str is fine. Otherwise it's better to import join
03:30	alexyakushev	That's my rule of a thumb
03:31	alexyakushev	Besides, separator argument to join is optional
03:31	alexyakushev	,(clojure.string/join [1 2 3])
03:31	clojurebot	"123"
03:45	amalloy	use whichever one you want. nobody is very religious about this, except apparently alexyakushev
03:48	alexyakushev	Psst, wanna join this new cool cult?
03:49	alexyakushev	amalloy: Jokes aside, I expect apply anything version to be slower on large sequences
03:49	amalloy	no
03:49	amalloy	join is just implemented as a call to apply str. how else could it work?
03:49	alexyakushev	Sure about that? :D
03:50	amalloy	~def clojure.string/join
03:50	alexyakushev	Ah, OK, I see now
03:50	alexyakushev	No-separator version is just apply str
03:50	alexyakushev	I accept my defeat
03:51	amalloy	and of course the body of str looks like the with-separator version of join
03:54	alexyakushev	Still, if join was implemented with explicit loop, it could be faster than apply, right?
03:55	amalloy	no
03:55	amalloy	apply str is implemented with the explicit loop you are talking about
03:57	alexyakushev	I'm kinda confused with this `spread` thing
03:58	amalloy	spread is just apply list
03:58	amalloy	but it's implemented before apply exists, in order to implement apply
04:07	alexyakushev	The world I've been living in crumbles, what you gonna do
04:07	alexyakushev	Thanks for the revelations
04:08	alexyakushev	I also found out that `reduce str` is much slower than `apply str`. Now I understand why is that, but before I would never think apply is sometimes faster than reduce
04:12	amalloy	alexyakushev: generally if apply and reduce do the same thing for a particular function, apply will always be at least as fast
04:13	amalloy	because apply can just delegate to reduce, but the opposite is not true
04:14	amalloy	and it's often faster, because as you can see in the case of str, it can perform "global" optimizations that aren't available from the keyhole perspective of reduce
04:18	mmeix	so (apply + ...) would be preferable to (reduce + ...) in all cases?
04:19	mmeix	(for this one function '+', of course)
04:19	mmeix	?
04:21	alexyakushev	Multiarity + is implemented via reduce
04:23	amalloy	well. it turns out the question is more complicatd, with transducers and reducers, because reduce can actually act on things which aren't really sequences anymore
04:24	amalloy	my advice is to not actually worry about which one you use
04:24	mmeix	so if in doubt decide for readability/understandability
04:25	mmeix	ad hoc question - re naming: what would be preferable: :stemup :stemUp :stem-up?
04:26	mmeix	stylewise
04:26	mmeix	(with the other one being :stemdown ...)
04:26	amalloy	the -
04:27	mmeix	thanks
04:27	mmeix	(thought so)
05:10	kaffeeboehnchen	Hi. So i have core.clj (with the namespace test.core) and something.clj (namespace test.something). Now I want to use a function of that namespace (something/run-this). As far as I understood I have to require (ns … (:require something)) and it will load my file. How can I access the function then?
05:15	scottj	kaffeeboehnchen: you require test.something not something.
05:15	scottj	kaffeeboehnchen: test.something/run-this if you just have that basic require
05:16	TEttinger	:as can be used to make the name shorter
05:16	TEttinger	,(require '[clojure.string :as cs])
05:16	clojurebot	nil
05:16	scottj	kaffeeboehnchen: and :refer [run-this] so you can just refer to run-this
05:16	TEttinger	,(cs/replace "hey guys" #" " ", all you ladies and ")
05:16	kaffeeboehnchen	ah, yeah, sorry, I have [test.something :as something] already.
05:16	clojurebot	"hey, all you ladies and guys"
05:17	kaffeeboehnchen	(it says "no such var run-this" by the way)
05:18	kaffeeboehnchen	*something/run-this
05:18	kaffeeboehnchen	hm
05:20	kaffeeboehnchen	this is my code: https://paste.xinu.at/m-Vpp/
05:21	scottj	kaffeeboehnchen: in run-test, are you sure you want ((create-db).. not (create-db)...?
05:22	scottj	(not re your problem)
05:22	kaffeeboehnchen	scottj: Well, that fixed my problem. I thougt I was importing it wrong :D
05:22	kaffeeboehnchen	Thanks!
05:23	scottj	kaffeeboehnchen: maybe there was a compile error you didn't see
05:37	mmeix	I have a function, which works, but my beginner's gut tells me, this could be made simpler/conciser: https://www.refheap.com/102147
05:38	mmeix	(ah, didn't try reduce ... never mind)
05:39	TEttinger	hmmm
05:51	TEttinger	mmeix:
05:51	TEttinger	,(apply merge-with vector (map hash-map (map :pos c) (map :step c)))
05:51	clojurebot	{:s1 [1 5], :s2 2}
05:52	TEttinger	that was fun, is it accurate?
05:52	TEttinger	(I defined c in a privmsg to clojurebot)
05:53	mmeix	yes, this is quite similar with what I've found in the meantime:
05:53	mmeix	,(let [c [{:step 1, :pos :s1}
05:53	mmeix	{:step 2, :pos :s2}
05:53	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
05:53	mmeix	{:step 5, :pos :s1}]]
05:53	mmeix	(->> (map #(hash-map (:pos %) (:step %)) c)
05:53	mmeix	(apply merge-with vector)))
05:54	mmeix	umpf
05:54	TEttinger	heh
05:54	mmeix	,(->> (map #(hash-map (:pos %) (:step %)) c) (apply merge-with vector))
05:54	clojurebot	{:s1 [1 5], :s2 2}
05:55	mmeix	ah!
05:55	TEttinger	nice!
05:55	mmeix	now if I wanted every val to be a vector?
05:59	mmeix	{:s1 [1 5], :s2 [2] }
05:59	TEttinger	,(apply merge-with #(into [] %&) (map hash-map (map :pos c) (map :step c)))
05:59	clojurebot	{:s1 [1 5], :s2 2}
05:59	TEttinger	hm
06:01	mmeix	ah!
06:01	mmeix	,(->> (map #(hash-map (:pos %) [(:step %)]) c)
06:01	mmeix	(apply merge-with into))
06:01	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
06:01	mmeix	urx
06:01	mmeix	, (->> (map #(hash-map (:pos %) [(:step %)]) c) (apply merge-with into)))
06:01	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Unable to resolve symbol: c in this context"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException\n :message "java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: c in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)"\n :at [clojure.lang.Compiler analyze "Compiler.java" 6543]}\n {:type java.lang.RuntimeException\n :message "Unable to resolve symbol: c in this context"\n ...
06:02	mmeix	,(let [c [{:step 1, :pos :s1} {:step 2, :pos :s2} {:step 5, :pos :s1}]] (->> (map #(hash-map (:pos %) [(:step %)]) c) (apply merge-with into)))
06:02	clojurebot	{:s1 [1 5], :s2 [2]}
06:02	mmeix	bingo
06:03	mmeix	just learned a lesson: make every element the same shape
06:03	mmeix	before into'ing
06:04	mmeix	(does clojurebot garbage collect defs?)
06:05	TEttinger	yes
06:05	mmeix	so c vanished after a short time - nice!
06:05	TEttinger	,(def c [{:step 1, :pos :s1} {:step 2, :pos :s2} {:step 5, :pos :s1}])
06:05	clojurebot	#'sandbox/c
06:05	TEttinger	,(->> (map #(hash-map (:pos %) [(:step %)]) c) (apply merge-with into)))
06:05	clojurebot	{:s1 [1 5], :s2 [2]}
06:05	mmeix	great
06:06	mmeix	thanks for brain storming!
06:09	TEttinger	yeah, glad to help!
06:10	mmeix	the Clojure mindset is growing :)
06:10	TEttinger	it's a fun break from the macro madness I've been dealing with trying to "reinvent" the fn special form for my clojuresque language that compiles to lua
06:10	mmeix	wow!
06:10	TEttinger	(hilariously, the hardest bug would never have happened in clojure, since I was missing a return statement)
06:11	mmeix	is Lua something to be interested in?
06:11	TEttinger	so it was going past the part where it evaluated the macro (correctly), and into a different section where it tries to use it as a normal function call :)
06:11	mmeix	brain twisting ...
06:12	TEttinger	I'm not sure. LuaJIT is absolutely amazing as far as dynamic language compilers go
06:12	TEttinger	I've been taking a functional programming lib for Lua and making it... more clojurey.
06:12	TEttinger	https://github.com/rtsisyk/luafun
06:12	TEttinger	I added reductions and made a correct partition
06:13	TEttinger	(before there was a function called partition that I think has a different name in clojure, and it isn't a very useful one. it's (fn [f coll] [(filter f coll) (remove f coll)]) )
06:14	mmeix	quite a undertaking! (to much for a beginner's mind :-)
06:14	justin_smith	TEttinger: that's like an anemic group-by
06:14	TEttinger	all of this has been great fun
06:14	mmeix	I can imagine that
06:16	mmeix	could that become: (fn [f coll] ((juxt filter remove) f coll)) ?
06:17	mmeix	(I do have a love affair with juxt since yesterday)
06:17	mmeix	:D
06:17	TEttinger	yep!
06:18	justin_smith	mmeix: ##((juxt #(% true) #(% false)) (group-by even? (range 10)))
06:18	lazybot	⇒ [[0 2 4 6 8] [1 3 5 7 9]]
06:18	justin_smith	it's better because it only walks once (but worse because not lazy)
06:18	oddcully	,(map (just :pos :step) c)
06:18	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Unable to resolve symbol: just in this context"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException\n :message "java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: just in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)"\n :at [clojure.lang.Compiler analyze "Compiler.java" 6543]}\n {:type java.lang.RuntimeException\n :message "Unable to resolve symbol: just in this co...
06:19	oddcully	just that is... brain was typing and reading stuff from ju[sx]tin
06:19	TEttinger	oddcully with the long distance pass!
06:35	oddcully	mmeix: if you want to just get rid of the (:x %) calls there you could also use destructuring (fn [{:keys [step pos]}] {step pos})
06:35	mmeix	after trying, I see the elegance of (juxt :pos :step), but I'm not sure, what this buys me ...
06:35	mmeix	but I have to refill to maps and then merge-with ...
06:37	mmeix	right now it is a two-liner:
06:37	mmeix	(fn [c] (->> (map #(hash-map (:pos %) [(:step %)]) c) (apply merge-with into)))
06:37	mmeix	but destructuring - yes!
06:37	mmeix	trying more variations ...
06:39	oddcully	destructing won't help the golfing. i just find it easier to read
06:40	mmeix	(no aspiring for golfing, just a concise form)
06:40	mmeix	(and learning, of course)
06:44	oddcully	and there is select-keys
06:45	justin_smith	,(select-keys (group-by even? (range 10)) [true false])
06:45	clojurebot	{true [0 2 4 6 8], false [1 3 5 7 9]}
06:54	mmeix	two new versions:
06:54	mmeix	https://www.refheap.com/102152
06:54	mmeix	pondering, which one I like more ...
06:56	jtmarmon_	can anyone give me a hand writing this macro? i'm trying to get this sucker to work: https://gist.github.com/jtmarmon/5980c80ea98cc8cc2b59 . the problem with the one on top is that it won't work if the 3rd item in the let clause is nil.
06:59	mmeix	(scratch that, of course: https://www.refheap.com/102153)
07:14	justin_smith	,(apply zipmap ((juxt (comp list :pos) (comp list vector :step)) {:step 1, :pos :s1}))
07:14	clojurebot	{:s1 [1]}
07:15	mmeix	ah ...
07:15	justin_smith	point-free, heh
07:18	mmeix	elegant! just trying ... has to work on a coll like [{:step 1, :pos :s1} {:step 2, :pos :s2}]
07:18	justin_smith	right, you would map it
07:19	justin_smith	,(map (partial apply zipmap ((juxt (comp list :pos) (comp list vector :step))) [{:step 1, :pos :s1} {:step 2 :pos :s2}]))
07:19	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Wrong number of args passed to keyword: :pos"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.IllegalArgumentException\n :message "Wrong number of args passed to keyword: :pos"\n :at [clojure.lang.Keyword throwArity "Keyword.java" 97]}]\n :trace\n [[clojure.lang.Keyword throwArity "Keyword.java" 97]\n [clojure.lang.Keyword invoke "Keyword.java" 110]\n [clojure.core$comp$fn__4493 invoke "core.c...
07:19	justin_smith	err
07:19	justin_smith	,(map (partial apply zipmap (partial (juxt (comp list :pos) (comp list vector :step))) [{:step 1, :pos :s1} {:step 2 :pos :s2}]))
07:19	clojurebot	#object[clojure.core$map$fn__4547 0x33a58260 "clojure.core$map$fn__4547@33a58260"]
07:20	justin_smith	err...
07:20	justin_smith	something like this, I probably should go back to sleep
07:31	mmeix	lots of options!
07:34	justin_smith	,(map (comp (partial apply zipmap) (partial (juxt (comp vector :pos) (comp vector vector :step)))) [{:step 1, :pos :s1} {:step 2 :pos :s2}])
07:34	clojurebot	({:s1 [1]} {:s2 [2]})
07:34	justin_smith	point free starts to get kind of silly
07:36	justin_smith	,(map (comp (partial apply zipmap) (juxt (comp list :pos) (comp list vector :step))) [{:step 1, :pos :s1} {:step 2 :pos :s2}])
07:36	clojurebot	({:s1 [1]} {:s2 [2]})
07:42	TEttinger	nice try, justin_smith
07:43	justin_smith	,(map (comp (partial apply hash-map) (juxt :pos (comp vector :step))) [{:step 1, :pos :s1} {:step 2 :pos :s2}])
07:43	clojurebot	({:s1 [1]} {:s2 [2]})
07:44	TEttinger	,(def c [{:step 1, :pos :s1} {:step 2, :pos :s2} {:step 5, :pos :s1}])
07:44	clojurebot	#'sandbox/c
07:46	justin_smith	,(apply merge-with into (map (comp (partial apply hahs-map) (juxt :pos (comp vector :step))) c))
07:46	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Unable to resolve symbol: hahs-map in this context"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException\n :message "java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: hahs-map in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)"\n :at [clojure.lang.Compiler analyze "Compiler.java" 6543]}\n {:type java.lang.RuntimeException\n :message "Unable to resolve symbol: hahs-ma...
07:46	TEttinger	hah
07:46	justin_smith	,(apply merge-with into (map (comp (partial apply hash-map) (juxt :pos (comp vector :step))) c))
07:46	clojurebot	{:s1 [1 5], :s2 [2]}
07:46	TEttinger	hahsmap
07:46	TEttinger	there we go!
07:46	justin_smith	point-free is crazy
07:46	TEttinger	what is point-free?
07:47	TEttinger	no definitions?
07:47	justin_smith	TEttinger: no named bindings
07:47	TEttinger	ah
07:47	justin_smith	where % also counts as a name
07:47	TEttinger	is %& a named binding?
07:47	justin_smith	yes
07:47	justin_smith	it's a name, you can position it arbitrarily in a form
07:47	TEttinger	how would you do varargs in point-free
07:47	TEttinger	err
07:47	TEttinger	can you?
07:48	justin_smith	TEttinger: sure, apply
07:48	TEttinger	oh nvm
07:48	justin_smith	well, apply explits existing varargs
07:48	TEttinger	,(defn [& args other] (apply str other args))
07:48	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "First argument to defn must be a symbol"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException\n :message "java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: First argument to defn must be a symbol, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_FILE:0:0)"\n :at [clojure.lang.Compiler macroexpand1 "Compiler.java" 6644]}\n {:type java.lang.IllegalArgumentException\n :message "First argument to defn must be a s...
07:48	TEttinger	,(defn guh [& args other] (apply str other args))
07:48	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Unexpected parameter"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException\n :message "java.lang.RuntimeException: Unexpected parameter, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)"\n :at [clojure.lang.Compiler analyzeSeq "Compiler.java" 6740]}\n {:type java.lang.RuntimeException\n :message "Unexpected parameter"\n :at [clojure.lang.Util runtimeException "Util.java" 221]}]\n :tr...
07:49	justin_smith	TEttinger: do you mean [other & args] ?
07:49	TEttinger	<justin_smith> it's a name, you can position it arbitrarily in a form
07:49	TEttinger	that was what I was testing
07:49	justin_smith	TEttinger: not the binding vector
07:49	justin_smith	the binding you create
07:49	TEttinger	it's still a form, the binding vector!
07:50	justin_smith	TEttinger: yes, in [& args] args is a binding, because you can use args anywhere in the following form
07:50	TEttinger	good ol' sleeping pills making me trollishly pedantic
07:50	justin_smith	I was not meaning to imply you can rearrange the binding vector itself, that's just silly
07:50	justin_smith	haha
07:51	mmeix	madstructuring, so to say :D
07:51	mmeix	(mmeix returns to listening & learning)
07:52	justin_smith	TEttinger: anyway, if you have a binding form of any sort, you definitely aren't point-free
07:52	TEttinger	ah!
07:53	justin_smith	let me see if I can recall all the ingredients needed for point-free in clojure...
07:53	TEttinger	,(partial + (map inc (range 5)))
07:53	clojurebot	#object[clojure.core$partial$fn__4525 0xad60240 "clojure.core$partial$fn__4525@ad60240"]
07:53	justin_smith	juxt, comp, partial, apply
07:53	TEttinger	((partial + (map inc (range 5))) (range 10 20))
07:53	justin_smith	sadly we don't have flip
07:53	TEttinger	,((partial + (map inc (range 5))) (range 10 20))
07:53	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "clojure.lang.LazySeq cannot be cast to java.lang.Number"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.ClassCastException\n :message "clojure.lang.LazySeq cannot be cast to java.lang.Number"\n :at [clojure.lang.Numbers add "Numbers.java" 128]}]\n :trace\n [[clojure.lang.Numbers add "Numbers.java" 128]\n [clojure.core$_PLUS_ invoke "core.clj" 955]\n [clojure.core$partial$fn__4525 invoke "core...
07:53	justin_smith	I think you need apply there
07:54	TEttinger	how would you get the partial to take 1 of 2 seq arguments?
07:54	TEttinger	map can take any number of seqs
07:54	TEttinger	what if you want a partial that only has one of them supplied
07:55	justin_smith	,((partial map + (map inc (range 5))) (range 10 20))
07:55	clojurebot	(11 13 15 17 19)
07:55	TEttinger	oh herp
07:55	TEttinger	(inc justin_smith) ; a thousand times again
07:55	lazybot	⇒ 260
07:56	mmeix	is point-free-ness something to strive for, besides elegance?
07:56	justin_smith	,((partial map + (map inc (range 5))) (range 10 20) (range 420 42))
07:56	clojurebot	()
07:56	TEttinger	mmeix, oh ni
07:56	TEttinger	no
07:56	justin_smith	,((partial map + (map inc (range 5))) (range 10 20) (range 42 420))
07:56	clojurebot	(53 56 59 62 65)
07:56	TEttinger	it impairs readability IMO
07:56	justin_smith	mmeix: it's considered a style to strive for in haskell
07:56	TEttinger	programming is about assigning good names to complex things
07:56	justin_smith	but without currying it makes much less sense
07:57	justin_smith	and even with currying people find it baffling
07:57	mmeix	but it is good training :-)
07:57	mmeix	something I wanted to ask yesterday: do let-bindings bring a performance penalty with them?
07:57	justin_smith	it's a good thought exercise, I find
07:58	justin_smith	mmeix: not noticible ones, no
07:58	mmeix	or a memory
07:58	mmeix	penalty
07:58	justin_smith	clojure does locals clearing
07:58	justin_smith	so not usually an issue
07:58	mmeix	so they get garbage collected early
07:58	justin_smith	mmeix: if the compiler can know they can't escape scope, yes
07:59	mmeix	ah, sounds logical
07:59	justin_smith	but the compiler is intentionally a bit daft
07:59	justin_smith	we don't try to make the compiler super clever, unlike most mainstream languages
08:00	mmeix	how does this look in clojurescript? would I strive for memory/speed in this way? (thinking tablets etc.)
08:03	mmeix	I always thougt, "partial" is currying ...
08:11	stain	more (partial)?
08:12	mmeix	?
08:12	stain	ah, it's a different discussion. it was discussed earlier in the week, lambda vs partial
08:13	mmeix	no, the context here was point-free functions, and their usefulness/...
08:14	mmeix	if I got that right :)
08:18	stain	ah
08:18	mmeix	Justin wrote a solution for a function I tried
08:18	stain	lazy sequences are kind of also in the same field.. but that's more with performance than with doing a pipeline style
08:19	stain	in my never-available time I try to write a workflow language for composing clojure functions, where you just state the connections
08:19	TEttinger	nice, stain
08:20	mmeix	that sounds interesting
08:20	stain	it's not very different from working with futures
08:20	stain	except that I want it to be push rather than pull
08:24	mmeix	would this resemble a glorified threading macro?
08:25	mmeix	(sorry, glorified is not a proper word maybe, bear with non native speakers ...)
08:25	stain	(defstep dostuff [a b] (str a b)) (defstep otherstuff [c] (str "x" c)) (link dostuff otherstuff :c) (link "fred" dostuff :a) (link "soup" dostuff :b) (println (deref otherstuff))
08:25	stain	something like that.. just independent connections from outputs to parameters
08:25	stain	obviously you can link the same output to multiple destinations
08:26	mmeix	reminds me of old school Moog Synthesizers :D
08:26	stain	but not so easily the other way around
08:26	mmeix	in studio language the use fan-in and fan-out for that
08:27	stain	yeah, I've worked on a workflow system called Apache Taverna, and there we have lots of magic like if there's multiple links to an input port/parameter, they are merged into a wrapping list
08:27	mmeix	multiple inputs would need a standard "summing" function, I guess
08:27	stain	and if you give a list to somethign that expects a value, autoamtic (map)
08:27	mmeix	ah!
08:27	stain	but that's a bit trickier in Clojure where generally parameters don't have a defined list depth
08:27	stain	but perhaps my defstep could allow that
08:28	stain	it would mean a more complex workflow compilation which can't be done before the whole workflow is defined
08:28	mmeix	exciting!
08:29	mmeix	needs a HyperREPL
08:29	stain	really I am just looking at a way to throw out our existing Taverna workflow engine and translate to Clojure code
08:29	stain	as then it could basically be compiled down to run directly on the JVM.. currently it runs in kind of "interpreted" mode
08:30	stain	e.g. the code for running a step will push out the values downstream, which then sees if the other values have arrived, which then execute and push furthe retc
08:30	mmeix	I could use something like that for my music project
08:30	stain	mmeix: so then you would have basically an endless stream of signals, right?
08:31	mmeix	right
08:31	stain	it sounds like you would need a clock-based workflow
08:31	mmeix	not necessarily
08:31	mmeix	it could produce several related versions of something
08:32	mmeix	reminds me a bit of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_(software)
08:32	stain	let's say left-hand side of your workflow takes much longer time than right-hand side, and the last step is say to mix them, will you wait for the whole thing to finish a clock cycle before merging their signals, or just merge them at best effort and just hope the delays are not too bad?
08:33	stain	depends if you want digital or analog synth in a way :)
08:33	mmeix	yes
08:33	stain	in analog you would appreciate those kind of aritfacts
08:33	mmeix	some signals could be Audio related
08:33	mmeix	some would carry semantic data
08:34	mmeix	or notation
08:34	mmeix	example: https://cycling74.com/2013/01/24/bach-beta-0-7-release/
08:36	mmeix	Web Audio has a similar concept
08:36	stain	cool stuff
08:36	mmeix	yes ... the MAX people are around for a long time now
08:37	mmeix	this is coming from developments in Paris IRCAM initally
08:37	mmeix	and Clojure lends itself to those concepts
08:37	mmeix	this is, why I'm learning it now
08:38	mmeix	there is a very long tradition of using LISPs in music generation
08:38	mmeix	decades, in fact
08:38	mmeix	it makes sense: musical data is a stream of values, and lists
08:39	mmeix	:D
08:39	stain	someone used Taverna workflows to compose music as well: http://www.taverna.org.uk/introduction/taverna-in-use/arts/composition-of-music/
08:39	mmeix	ah, thanks for the link!
08:39	stain	so what I am hoping with my workflow thing is to make it possible to define such workflows in Clojure, open them in Taverna to see them graphically and do some rewiring, and then run them again in Clojure
08:40	stain	but that's a bit of a long shot
08:40	mmeix	let me know of the project! or can I follow you somewhere?
08:40	stain	as I don't have time to replicate the more powerful workflow engine features (e.g. automatic retries on failures)
08:40	stain	uhm.. it's.. mainly in my head!
08:40	stain	I'm on the twitter @soilandreyes
08:40	mmeix	np
08:40	stain	you've inspired me to have a go :)
08:41	mmeix	we live in excitig times, I find
08:41	stain	too many ideas, too little time
08:41	mmeix	yes, same here
08:41	mmeix	just now coming to grips with Clojure while programming a web based music notation lib
08:42	mmeix	with thinking about implementing musical semantics on a deeper level
08:43	mmeix	so lot of ideas too :-)
08:43	sobel	seems like this discussion might be incomplete without mentioning Overtone
08:43	mmeix	Yes, O know Overtone
08:43	mmeix	I
08:43	mmeix	the synthesis side of it is great, the underlying musical semantics a bit to naive, I find
08:43	sobel	agreed
08:44	sobel	i looked straight at building instruments and puked at the amount of work left to the music developer
08:44	mmeix	musical semantics go through many levels
08:44	mmeix	the MIDI-centered view is not expressive enough
08:45	sobel	i wasn't looking for a combined music+tooling learning curve at the time and it went fully technical on music, of course
08:45	mmeix	Clojure can do better, I think
08:45	mmeix	yes
08:45	kaffeeboehnchen	Anyone has an idea how I can create a foreign key with java.jdbc?
08:45	sobel	agreed again on MIDI-centric being a poor model
08:45	mmeix	MIDI was invented for making another synth play
08:45	mmeix	so it has really very little meaning
08:45	sobel	right. in a pretty generic sense.
08:46	sobel	worse, it assumes stateful controllers and a bunch of other crud
08:46	mmeix	musical structure is a very deep thing
08:46	sobel	:)
08:46	sobel	talk to me
08:46	mmeix	as I can confirm
08:47	mmeix	(I'm teaching music theory in Vienna University for music)
08:47	sobel	excellent
08:47	mmeix	yeah, and very happy to have found Clojure as a medium to work in
08:47	mmeix	now leraning frantically
08:47	mmeix	as the people here can attest ;-)
08:48	mmeix	lots of beginner's questions from my side
08:48	sobel	i'm still learning my way around some new tools. i used to be a regular sax player but now i am mostly an avid electronica and classical listener.
08:48	mmeix	great!
08:49	sobel	Clojure being the more familiar part. I have Ableton/MAX but I'm sortakinda not a GUI person anymore. It's horrible but I'm more productive at the CLI.
08:49	mmeix	why not?
08:49	sobel	downside is i still suck at it and the tooling isn't polished like Ableton so, lotsa pitfalls
08:50	mmeix	yes ...
08:50	sobel	why am i not a GUI person anymore? probably broken by years of software eng
08:50	mmeix	LOL
08:50	mmeix	but thinking in functions is very similar to thinking music
08:50	sobel	that is, exposure to crummy GUIs starting in the early 90s continually pushed me toward traditional unix tools which were mature, if utterly lacking in GUI
08:51	mmeix	ja, they are ugly often
08:51	mmeix	we will change that :-)
08:51	mmeix	when I have my music notetion engine running, I'll dive deep into semantics
08:51	mmeix	hopefully this summer
08:52	mmeix	*notation
08:52	sobel	oh yeah, well, brief history of my programming life: i've always been a bit of a functional thinker, but i barely studied CS academically, and got distracted by OO through the early 2000s. i quit that when i figured out Lisps are the functional language for me.
08:52	mmeix	you are a professional programmer?
08:52	sobel	yes
08:52	mmeix	oh, great
08:53	mmeix	I envy the pros a bit right now
08:53	mmeix	but everything can be learned
08:53	sobel	yeahwell, we all envy each other for opportunities not taken ;) i try to turn that envy into collaboration because man, i did not live enough lifetimes to master all the topics and skills i can orchestrate in practice
08:54	sobel	hell, i envied pros when i was right around 10 years experienced, and thinking, geeze, does this ever get easy? where's the top of this mountoin, such that i'll be able to see a lot farther once i get to it?
08:55	sobel	and i'm sure someone at 5 years was thinking, i wish i could sql and java like sobel. not a hobby for the impatient. :)
08:55	mmeix	computer technology seems to evolve very fast - but on the other side the return of LISPs from decades ago gives some hope
08:55	mmeix	for me
08:56	mmeix	so it's learning and learning
08:56	mmeix	I like this, OTOH
08:56	sobel	when the discipline was identified as a new science it got a lot of core research. imo, it's not surprising that so much amazing stuff was discovered and forgotten quickly.
08:57	mmeix	back to the fathers!
08:57	mmeix	(same as back to JSBach :-)
08:58	mmeix	and Rich is a musician too, I learned ...
08:58	sobel	disappointing, though, that we don't have better theoretical analysis tools for evaluating syntax and other language properties. oh wait, we do, and that analysis is pretty damn hard. and people went against it on purpose to create things like Java, with full knowledge they were breaking things experts relied on.
08:58	sobel	when i was a band student, most the programmers i knew were marching on the field with me every morning
08:59	mmeix	:-)
08:59	sobel	the rest dropped out of band in 9th grade. music/CS seem to be a really common combo, probably for the synergy.
08:59	sobel	or maybe it's due to the whole deal with musicians growing denser dendrite networks
09:00	mmeix	I heard a talk lately, which showed that the whole brain is exercised in musical activity
09:00	sobel	i think what i'd ideally like, is to be able to cram patterns into Ableton from a clojure repl
09:00	mmeix	I guess, we wouldnt need Ableton for that, but it should be possible ...
09:01	sobel	mmeix: oh, i think i may have seen that one cross my screen but didn't watch it. consciousness being an emergence of harmonies and other patterns in brain waves
09:01	sobel	mmeix: i'd like to express patterns with dynamics in closed form at the REPL
09:02	mmeix	one could try OSC as a intermedita medium, I guess
09:02	sobel	instead of clicking them out or playing them in, then changing over to the controller view to draw the dynamic, etc
09:02	mmeix	I'm not sure, if Ableton supports OSC
09:02	mmeix	OSC is much richer than MIDI
09:02	sobel	there's a MIDIOsc server
09:02	mmeix	will think about that
09:02	mmeix	ah, ok
09:02	mmeix	OSC is simple text
09:03	sobel	dunno if it would meet the need but i used it to integrate a silly ipad app to ableton once
09:03	mmeix	so should totally be doable with Clojure as generator
09:03	mmeix	I used LEMUR for that
09:03	mmeix	great stuff
09:03	mmeix	more ideas for the summer :D
09:04	sobel	does LEMUR come with an app that makes midi from the LEMUR messages?
09:04	mmeix	ja
09:04	mmeix	there's a the usual desktop server app
09:04	mmeix	and LEMUR in itself has a rich scripting language
09:05	mmeix	https://liine.net/en/products/lemur/
09:05	sobel	oh, this is random, but.. i need to debounce midi messages from a WX-11 (wind controller) that produces a lot of spurious intermediate notes at note transitions.
09:05	mmeix	should be easily doable in MAX
09:06	mmeix	there is a throttling module
09:06	sobel	it yields them at an insane rate when the switches transition, so a change involving 5 buttons can yield quite a range of shit
09:06	mmeix	I forgot
09:06	sobel	oh cool
09:06	sobel	i usually don't end up on the max side (bad at GUIs!)
09:08	mmeix	https://docs.cycling74.com/max5/refpages/max-ref/speedlim.html
09:09	mmeix	I guess this could do what you want
09:09	mmeix	GUI-wise: three or four nodes to click together
09:10	mmeix	shouldn't be that bad
09:10	sobel	hmm. i don't want a rate limiter, i want to throw away the ones that are too fast.
09:10	mmeix	"Sets an initial minimum time between outputs. Time can be specified in any of the time formats used in Max. If there is no argument, the minimum time is 0 milliseconds."
09:10	sobel	so necessarily a slight delay
09:11	mmeix	if it's less than 20 ms or so, one woldn't perceive it, I guess
09:11	mmeix	and MIDI isn't that fast anyway :-)
09:11	sobel	not real MIDI
09:12	mmeix	there is an example on the bottom of the page, where they limit pitchbends
09:13	sobel	IIRC oh dear, the original spec was 3.125Kbps. i got on board when it was routinely run over 100k, ISTR.
09:14	mmeix	I have to leave, but hopefully we meet again here ... I'll be online a lot with pestering the pros with beginner's questions (ask justin_smith :-)
09:15	sobel	i bother justin_smith occasionally as well :) i'm around on and off throughout the year. be well!
09:15	mmeix	you too!
10:14	mmeix	what is common wisdom re default values for defrecord?
10:14	mmeix	I'm reading here: http://cemerick.com/2010/08/02/defrecord-slot-defaults/
10:14	mmeix	he does a macro for this
10:15	mmeix	the article is from 2010 though, so maybe there is some common practice now?
10:16	crocket	Do clojurists use try/catch often?
10:16	crocket	In java, I did.
10:16	crocket	Checked exceptions were evil.
10:20	kaffeeboehnchen	Is there any way to use google groups without google id? I wanted to ask something on the java.jdbc group :(
10:20	oddcully	mmeix: the way i do it is with a new-something method, that calls map->Something where i merge defaults
10:21	mmeix	I just found this article: http://stuartsierra.com/2015/05/17/clojure-record-constructors
10:22	mmeix	thanks! this makes sense ...
10:41	mmeix	so this would be a simple form of a constructor:
10:41	mmeix	(defn pitch [step & accidental] (map->Pitch {:step step :accidental :none}))
10:41	mmeix	clojury?
10:49	TimMc	kaffeeboehnchen: I think you have to create a Google account, but you can have it go to your real email.
11:05	oddcully	mmeix: where is your accidental used?
11:08	mmeix	some note have accidentals, other not
11:08	mmeix	pitch would be part of a chord [pitch1 pitch2 pitch3]
11:09	mmeix	chord would be part of a graphical unit
11:09	mmeix	[chord stem flag dots]
11:10	mmeix	this unit has to do a lot of calculations to place symbols where they belong
11:10	mmeix	for example a function which cares for accidental placement
11:10	mmeix	and so on
11:11	mmeix	Would it be better to omit :accidental :none ?
11:13	mmeix	so the accidental machinery would collect all pitches and build a stem with noteheads out of it, and a stack of accidentals, which go left of the notehead/stem/flag-combo
11:14	mmeix	this is the use case
11:15	mmeix	but if I do (defrecord Pitch [step accidental]) I'm obliged to supply a value for both, right?
11:16	mmeix	,(defrecord Pitch [:step :accidental])
11:16	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "defrecord and deftype fields must be symbols, sandbox.Pitch had: :step, :accidental"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException\n :message "java.lang.AssertionError: defrecord and deftype fields must be symbols, sandbox.Pitch had: :step, :accidental, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)"\n :at [clojure.core$validate_fields invoke "core_deftype.clj" 292]}\n {:type ja...
11:17	mmeix	err
11:17	mmeix	,(defrecord Pitch [step accidental])
11:17	clojurebot	sandbox.Pitch
11:19	mmeix	,(def n1 (->Pitch 7)
11:19	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
11:19	mmeix	,(def n1 (->Pitch 7))
11:19	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "Wrong number of args (1) passed to: sandbox/eval48/->Pitch--63"\n :via\n [{:type clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException\n :message "clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: sandbox/eval48/->Pitch--63, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_FILE:0:0)"\n :at [clojure.lang.Compiler$InvokeExpr eval "Compiler.java" 3628]}\n {:type clojure.lang.ArityException\n :message ...
11:20	mmeix	,(defn pitch [step & acc] (map->Pitch {:step step :acc :none}))
11:20	clojurebot	#'sandbox/pitch
11:21	mmeix	,(def n1 (pitch 7))
11:21	clojurebot	#'sandbox/n1
11:21	mmeix	,(def n2 (pitch 4 :sharp))
11:21	clojurebot	#'sandbox/n2
11:22	mmeix	(sorry for generating unnecessary error stacks)
11:23	mmeix	,(def chord [n1 n2])
11:23	clojurebot	#'sandbox/chord
11:23	borkdude	for anyone interested in migration a project from leiningen to boot, first steps: http://blog.michielborkent.nl/blog/2015/06/06/from-leiningen-to-boot/
11:23	mmeix	,(map :step chord)
11:23	clojurebot	(7 4)
11:23	oddcully	i ask because of step & acc and then acc never beeing used
11:23	mmeix	,(map :acc chord)
11:23	clojurebot	(:none :none)
11:24	mmeix	ah - silly me
11:24	mmeix	ok
11:28	mr_rm	does anyone know if it's possible to make vsclojure NOT separate the '.' from a property or method name when it reformats the document with ctrl-E,D?
11:28	mr_rm	sorry for kind of off topic but nobody talking in #vsclojure
11:29	mr_rm	e.g. reformatting changes (-> obj .Foo) to (-> obj . Foo) and this frequently causes errors
11:43	mr_rm	ok different question... does anyone think Clojure on .Net will ever be anything other than a novelty? I love Clojure/JVM and use it all the, and Clojurescript seems to get a lot of mindshare, but the .Net world is... different. I'm just really wondering if looking there is even worth the time. Could be learning F# instead
12:14	hadronzoo	With reader conditionals, is it now possible to define and use macros within the same cljc file when targetting clojurescript?
12:21	hadronzoo	Ah, just figured it out using #?(:cljs (:require-macros [current-ns]))
12:46	dhardison	i'm working on an app and i'm trying to understand the scope of a variable i've defined using (def active-piece -1). I want to update the value inside a block of code -- should i be using def or let?
12:47	wasamasa	let establishes local bindings shadowing outer bindings
12:48	dhardison	so i should just use def -- correct?
12:48	gfredericks	dhardison: def isn't designed for mutation
12:48	dhardison	for this case at least
12:48	wasamasa	def would work, but isn't ideal
12:48	dhardison	ah - hmmm well is there a way i can have a global mutable value
12:48	gfredericks	ideally you would figure out a way to not have one
12:48	dhardison	i'm trying to keep it simple for now
12:48	gfredericks	but if you really want one
12:48	dhardison	while i figure all this out.
12:49	gfredericks	,(def active-piece (atom -1))
12:49	clojurebot	#'sandbox/active-piece
12:49	gfredericks	,(swap! active-piece + 10)
12:49	clojurebot	9
12:49	gfredericks	,(swap! active-piece + 10)
12:49	clojurebot	19
12:49	gfredericks	,(swap! active-piece inc)
12:49	clojurebot	20
12:49	gfredericks	,(reset! active-piece 9000)
12:49	clojurebot	9000
12:49	gfredericks	,(deref active-piece)
12:49	clojurebot	9000
12:50	gfredericks	also http://clojure.org/state
12:50	dhardison	gotcha, thank you very much
12:51	Jickelsen	,(go (let [foo (<!
12:51	Jickelsen	(#(let [c (chan)] (>! c "bar") c))
12:51	Jickelsen	)]
12:51	Jickelsen	foo))
12:51	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
12:53	Jickelsen	Returns #<[Object Object]>
12:53	Jickelsen	nil
12:53	Jickelsen	for me
12:54	gfredericks	is it a channel?
12:54	gfredericks	go always returns a channel
12:54	justin_smith	Jickelsen: has to be on one line, clojurebot does not do multi line input
12:54	justin_smith	Jickelsen: and clojure bot does not do core.async :P
12:54	gfredericks	and clojure bot only evaluates haskell
12:54	Jickelsen	I suspect it could lead to a whole lot of shenanigans!
12:55	gfredericks	and clojure bot does not exist
12:55	gfredericks	and we are all different slices of a very finely sliced pumpkin pie
13:02	Jickelsen	I tried switching out foo for a global atom
13:02	Jickelsen	(go (reset! foo (<!
13:02	Jickelsen	(#(let [c (chan)] (>! c "bar") c))
13:02	Jickelsen	)) but the value of foo has not been changed
13:02	Jickelsen	Also I forgot to paste in a closing parenthesis, sorry
13:02	justin_smith	Jickelsen: go returns a channel
13:03	gfredericks	justin_smith: which is the point of switching to an atom
13:03	justin_smith	and your block inside also puts a channel into c
13:04	justin_smith	gfredericks: ahh, OK
13:04	justin_smith	and what's the point of (#(...)) instead of (...)
13:06	gfredericks	probably nothing
13:06	Jickelsen	(>! (chan) "bar") only returns true though, won't it?
13:07	justin_smith	Jickelsen: sure, but you are not using the return value of that anyway
13:07	justin_smith	,(let [] 42 :a)
13:07	clojurebot	:a
13:17	Jickelsen	True! I switched to an atom since the return value of the block wasn't very helpful. Could have used a print statement though. So it seems the MVP (eeh) should have been
13:17	Jickelsen	(go (reset! foo (<!
13:17	Jickelsen	(let [c (chan)] (>! c "bar") c))))
13:17	Jickelsen	The atom, however, remains unfazed
13:18	justin_smith	Jickelsen: I'm trying to remember, there may be rules about reading and writing the same channel in one block?
13:19	dhardison	what's the proper syntax to return true/false at the end of a function call?
13:19	justin_smith	dhardison: true
13:19	justin_smith	or maybe false
13:19	justin_smith	,((fn [] (print "did something") true))
13:19	clojurebot	did somethingtrue
13:20	dhardison	justin_smith: must it happen at the end or can i do it within an if statement
13:20	Jickelsen	justin_smith: I think you're right!
13:20	justin_smith	dhardison: you can only return from the end of a function (but an if statement can change where the "end" is)
13:20	dhardison	k thanks
13:26	justin_smith	Jickelsen: https://www.refheap.com/102178
13:27	justin_smith	Jickelsen: I can reproduce, doing it inside one go block fails
13:29	justin_smith	Jickelsen: in case you loaded already, refresh, I added extra lines demonstrating that the value "foo" was still in c after, and that by putting another value in c I could make that eventually end up in result
13:30	justin_smith	so yeah, it's definitely the "don't read and write the same chan in one go block" rule in action
13:38	Jickelsen1	Thank you, now at least I know why my async-jousting in the repl wasn't working :)
13:39	justin_smith	I hope the stuff I was trying to demonstrate in that refheap paste is clear
13:41	justin_smith	like, it did read and write the same channel in one go block, but just not to / from itself at all...
13:46	mmeix	ok, there must be a better way (bare with me, as always):
13:46	mmeix	,(defrecord Simpson [name hair])
13:47	clojurebot	sandbox.Simpson
13:47	mmeix	,(defn new-simpson [name & [hair]]
13:47	mmeix	(map->Simpson {:name name :hair (or hair "blond")}))
13:47	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
13:47	dhardison	what does syntax similar to :refer or :black etc mean in clojure
13:47	mmeix	,(defn new-simpson [name & [hair]](map->Simpson {:name name :hair (or hair "blond")}))
13:47	clojurebot	#'sandbox/new-simpson
13:48	mmeix	,(def lisa (new-simpson "Lisa"))
13:48	clojurebot	#'sandbox/lisa
13:48	mmeix	,(def marge (new-simpson "Marge" "blue!"))
13:48	clojurebot	#'sandbox/marge
13:48	mmeix	,lisa
13:48	clojurebot	#sandbox.Simpson{:name "Lisa", :hair "blond"}
13:48	mmeix	,marge
13:48	clojurebot	#sandbox.Simpson{:name "Marge", :hair "blue!"}
13:49	mmeix	this doesn't feel right for me: "[name & [hair]"
13:49	mmeix	"[name & [hair]]"
13:49	mmeix	just to avoid parens in the val
13:49	gfredericks	,(defn new-simpson ([name] (new-simpson name "blond")) ([name hair] (->Simpson name hair)))
13:49	clojurebot	#'sandbox/new-simpson
13:50	mmeix	ok
13:50	mmeix	thanks
13:51	gfredericks	I'd like a better syntax for default args
13:51	Jickelsen1	justin_smith: I get the gist of it, I need to read up a bit on when to use put! though
13:51	gfredericks	I don't like [name & [hair]] because you get a squishier function that accepts any 1+ args
13:52	mmeix	I tried {:keys ...}
13:52	mmeix	but that feels a bit convoluted too
13:54	mmeix	in a simple case of 1-3 args a variadic func is easy enough
13:54	mmeix	thanks again
14:02	mmeix	follow-up:
14:02	mmeix	,(defrecord Pitch [step acc])
14:02	clojurebot	sandbox.Pitch
14:02	mmeix	,(defn pitch ([step] (pitch step nil)) ([step acc] (->Pitch step acc)))
14:02	clojurebot	#'sandbox/pitch
14:02	oddcully	mmeix: if you have many different optional params you can allow passing a map as last param, merge with your defaults and send it to map->Record
14:03	justin_smith	Jickelsen1: (put! c val) is usually the better equivalent of (go (>! c val)) - it is for async offering of a value to a channel
14:03	justin_smith	gfredericks: stuartsierra's latest blog post was on that topic http://stuartsierra.com/2015/06/01/clojure-donts-optional-arguments-with-varargs
14:04	mmeix	(ja, just read that article)
14:04	justin_smith	dhardison: ##(type :foo)
14:04	lazybot	⇒ clojure.lang.Keyword
14:05	mmeix	my question was:
14:05	justin_smith	dhardison: keywords are symbols that only stand for themselves, they never get resolved directly to a binding (though they are commonly used as keys in maps by which bindings are looked up)
14:05	mmeix	would it be better to do "(defn pitch ([step] (pitch step nil)) ..."
14:05	mmeix	or "(defn pitch ([step] (pitch step :none))..." ?
14:05	justin_smith	mmeix: ahh
14:06	justin_smith	yeah, nil is idiomatic for "none" I think
14:06	mmeix	ok
14:06	mmeix	oddcully will try the merge
14:06	dhardison	justin_smith: thanks
14:06	justin_smith	it's a decent "none of the above" value, since things like or or if handle it nicely
14:07	justin_smith	mmeix: a good addition, if using nil for none and merging, is a function that removes keys if they have a nil value
14:07	mmeix	AHA!
14:08	mmeix	(sorry for shouting.. )
14:08	justin_smith	(defn without-nil-keys [m] (into (empty m) (remove (comp nil? second) m))
14:08	gfredericks	I hate computers
14:09	justin_smith	or (merge-with #(or %2 %) m1 m2)
14:09	justin_smith	gfredericks: haha
14:10	gfredericks	I just made this refactor that changes things to use strictly fewer function calls and it made everything like 5% slower: https://github.com/clojure/test.check/commit/71fb1bd185025d55e10ed1cdaf1b1c64d240fc10
14:10	mmeix	(thanks for abundance of patience)
14:11	gfredericks	life is a lot easier when you don't measure how fast things go
14:11	justin_smith	gfredericks: mo' criteria mo' problems
14:12	justin_smith	gfredericks: which is why I only use one simple test to make all decisions
14:12	gfredericks	"is it dope?"
14:12	justin_smith	haha
14:12	justin_smith	dope has a complex dependency tree
14:12	justin_smith	coin flips are isolated :)
14:13	gfredericks	this is the OOP version of "simple"
14:13	gfredericks	all I have to do is call it.isDope() how could anything be simpler
14:14	gfredericks	anyhow so while you're all here I'm been thinking about activerecord-envy and wondering if there are things that could be done
14:15	gfredericks	I'm thinking specifically about solving problems of CRUD, type conversion, key spelling style conversion, and maybe other things, with minimal boilerplate and ideally no magic
14:16	justin_smith	gfredericks: this is a bunch of what Caribou was / is about, though it is not as advanced as nuanced as what you have in mind I bet
14:19	gfredericks	oh hey I haven't seen that
14:20	gfredericks	which lib?
14:20	gfredericks	carbiou-core?
14:20	justin_smith	caribou-core is the db and modeling layer
14:20	justin_smith	caribou-admin is the web UI for CRUD
14:20	justin_smith	allows point and click / drag and drop modeling
14:21	gfredericks	definitely haven't been thinking about webby stuff
14:21	justin_smith	my intro to clojure was getting hired to work on Caribou
14:22	gfredericks	how does this interact with java.jdbc
14:22	justin_smith	gfredericks: it wraps variou jdbc drivers (right now mysql, postgres, and h2 have full support)
14:23	justin_smith	*various
14:23	justin_smith	it uses an edn data structure to describe a data model, and that gets stored / retrieved as data in the db itself
14:23	gfredericks	so doesn't use java.jdbc at all? uses JDBC directly?
14:23	justin_smith	and schema changes are also reflected in the model table
14:23	justin_smith	the implementation uses jdbc for everything
14:24	justin_smith	though at one point we considered implementing datomic and mongo support, those are still vapor
14:25	borkdude	I thought if there exists a very light weight ORM library written in Java or so, that can be used from Clojure easily
14:25	gfredericks	oh man I definitely don't want an ORM
14:25	justin_smith	probably - we didn't like any of the ones we knew
14:25	justin_smith	we didn't want ORM - we wanted MRM (map relational modeling)
14:25	borkdude	without getting stuck with annotation, but just being able to use edn
14:26	justin_smith	borkdude: yeah, that's what we aimed for - the RM part without stateful object behavior stuff at all
14:27	borkdude	the more I thought about it, the more clojure.java.jdbc fit my needs :)
14:28	gfredericks	I'm working in a few projects that have a lot of CRUD boilerplace
14:28	gfredericks	with java.jdbc
14:29	gfredericks	and java.jdbc's protocols aren't sufficient for all the type conversion we have to do
14:31	justin_smith	gfredericks: oh, caribou wouldn't help you then - it just uses a small edn subset
14:32	gfredericks	I almost thought about making a library just for specifying conversions
14:32	gfredericks	types and keys
14:32	gfredericks	maybe prismatic/schema would be sufficient for that
14:32	gfredericks	or at least could be an implementation
14:33	gfredericks	I think using camel-snake-kebab and just blindly converting everything is pretty gross
14:34	dhardison	what's the best way to debug a clojurescript application
14:35	dhardison	right now i'm compiling and running and fumbling in the dark
14:35	justin_smith	dhardison: I find figwheel helps a lot, also cljs.test works
14:35	justin_smith	dhardison: and definitely use the chrome inspector / console if you are not yet
14:36	justin_smith	it has breakpoints, stack inspection, local inspection, etc.
14:42	dhardison	justin_smith: hmm i'd love to use devtools but does it support looking into variables?
14:42	justin_smith	dhardison: in my experience yes, it shows local variables, and namespace level defs
14:42	justin_smith	though you do have to figure out the "munging" to get the js version of the thing you want
14:43	justin_smith	but that's where the figwheel repl also helps - it's a cljs repl
14:43	justin_smith	as opposed to the console js repl
16:00	lalops	Direct download links/forum attatchments SEO ANALYZER SCRIPT: /AMSG FREE SEO ANALYZER SCRIPT DOWNLOAD ATTATCHMENT FOUND: http://www.websiteadverts.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=17 WEBSITE WORTH CALCULATOR SCRIPT: http://www.websiteadverts.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=16
16:38	noncom	if i pass, say, a clojure {} into a java method that accepts a HashMap and the java code modifies the {}, that breaks the immutability, right?
16:38	noncom	i mean, it is no longer done through STM ?
16:39	justin_smith	noncom: how would it modify the {}
16:39	justin_smith	STM cannot modify {}
16:39	noncom	justin_smith: isn't {} a HashMap ?
16:39	justin_smith	,(type {})
16:39	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
16:39	noncom	omg
16:39	noncom	how can i be so lame..
16:39	justin_smith	,(type (java.util.HashMap.))
16:39	clojurebot	java.util.HashMap
16:40	noncom	right, right, my daily dose of stupidity :D
16:40	uptown	i'm still on an hourly dose personally
16:40	justin_smith	noncom: on the other hand (instance? java.util.Map {})
16:40	justin_smith	,(instance? java.util.Map {})
16:40	clojurebot	true
16:40	justin_smith	,(instance? java.util.Map (java.util.HashMap.))
16:40	clojurebot	true
16:41	noncom	(.add {} 1 1)
16:41	noncom	,(.add {} 1 1)
16:41	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "No matching method found: add for class clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.IllegalArgumentException\n :message "No matching method found: add for class clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap"\n :at [clojure.lang.Reflector invokeMatchingMethod "Reflector.java" 53]}]\n :trace\n [[clojure.lang.Reflector invokeMatchingMethod "Reflector.java" 53]\n [clojure.lan...
16:41	justin_smith	,(.add (java.util.HashMap.) 1 1)
16:41	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause "No matching method found: add for class java.util.HashMap"\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.IllegalArgumentException\n :message "No matching method found: add for class java.util.HashMap"\n :at [clojure.lang.Reflector invokeMatchingMethod "Reflector.java" 53]}]\n :trace\n [[clojure.lang.Reflector invokeMatchingMethod "Reflector.java" 53]\n [clojure.lang.Reflector invokeInstanceMe...
16:41	justin_smith	,(.put (java.util.HashMap.) 1 1)
16:41	clojurebot	nil
16:41	noncom	,(.put {} 1 1)
16:41	clojurebot	#error {\n :cause nil\n :via\n [{:type java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException\n :message nil\n :at [clojure.lang.APersistentMap put "APersistentMap.java" 374]}]\n :trace\n [[clojure.lang.APersistentMap put "APersistentMap.java" 374]\n [sun.reflect.NativeMethodAccessorImpl invoke0 "NativeMethodAccessorImpl.java" -2]\n [sun.reflect.NativeMethodAccessorImpl invoke "NativeMethodAccessorImpl.jav...
16:41	justin_smith	unsupported operation :)
16:41	noncom	ah, unsupported op
16:42	noncom	cool! :)
16:42	noncom	so it gives the guarantee...
16:42	justin_smith	I mean you could use reflection and get at the internals and mutate - but that's tricky, and you can break most anything in the jvm that way if determined to :)
16:43	justin_smith	,(java.util.HashMap. {:a 0})
16:43	clojurebot	{:a 0}
16:44	justin_smith	,(.get (java.util.HashMap. {:a 0}) :a)
16:44	clojurebot	0
16:44	justin_smith	if you really need the mutable thing, that is very easy to arrange
16:45	justin_smith	,(.get (doto (java.util.HashMap. {:a 0}) (.put :b 1)) :b)
16:45	clojurebot	1
16:47	noncom	i see!
16:47	noncom	actually in this current place i am concerned with making the user unable to mutate
16:47	justin_smith	,(into {} (doto (java.util.HashMap.) (.put :a 0) (.put :b 1)))
16:47	clojurebot	{:b 1, :a 0}
16:47	justin_smith	cool
16:48	noncom	but your last example is good to remember also when i need it
16:59	borkdude	Clojure related blog post is now in top 10 on Hacker News
17:00	justin_smith	borkdude: your post about boot?
17:00	borkdude	yeah :)
17:00	justin_smith	congrats
17:00	borkdude	tnx
17:14	dhardison	i'm running (def x (atom {:d 2})) -- and then (get x :d) and it's returning nil -- any ideas
17:14	Bronsa	,(def x (atom {:d 42}))
17:14	dhardison	i also tried (get (deref x) :d)
17:14	Bronsa	,x
17:14	clojurebot	#'sandbox/x
17:14	clojurebot	#object[clojure.lang.Atom 0x66862bb9 {:status :ready, :val {:d 42}}]
17:14	Bronsa	,(class x)
17:14	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Atom
17:14	Bronsa	,(class @x)
17:14	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
17:15	Bronsa	,(get @x :d)
17:15	clojurebot	42
17:15	dhardison	ah
17:15	dhardison	what does @ symbol do
17:15	justin_smith	,'@x
17:15	clojurebot	(clojure.core/deref x)
17:15	Bronsa	,`@x
17:15	clojurebot	(clojure.core/deref sandbox/x)
17:15	Bronsa	damn you justin_smith !
17:15	justin_smith	haha
17:19	noncom	dhardison: @x is a shortcut for (deref x) and it gets what is "inside" the atom. in your case, that's {:d 2}
17:20	justin_smith	and also, get works with like - anything
17:20	justin_smith	,(get nil :a)
17:20	clojurebot	nil
17:20	justin_smith	,(get Double/NaN :a)
17:20	Bronsa	,(get 42 23 37)
17:20	clojurebot	nil
17:20	clojurebot	37
17:20	amalloy	dhardison: more than a specific answer to your question about @, note the general technique justin_smith just showed you: if you're not sure what some shorthand means, just put a quote in front of it and see how it expands
17:20	dhardison	i see - i was trying it out on tryclj.com but it was giving me an error
17:21	dhardison	thanks amalloy
17:21	noncom	yes, get is sorta fail-safe, so you just get nil instead of a NullPointerException or something. that's often the case with clojure
17:29	thedoodPL	What is the easiest way to interact with a rest service (get and post stuff) in clojure?
17:31	thedoodPL	is there any lib that combines clj-http and a json lib?
17:43	dhardison	so, if i dereference something from an atom, i cannot update the data directly, can i? e.g. (def x (atom {:d 1})) -- and then (assoc @x :d 2)
17:45	dhardison	i'll have to do a reset!
17:51	oddcully	danlarkin: swap!
17:51	oddcully	erm
17:51	oddcully	dhardison: ^^
17:53	dhardison	oddcully: i'm passing in the atom into a function -- will that still work
17:53	dhardison	looks like that it might be setting it to null
17:55	oddcully	,(def a (atom {}))
17:55	clojurebot	#'sandbox/a
17:55	oddcully	,((fn [x] (swap! x assoc :x 42)) a)
17:55	clojurebot	{:x 42}
17:55	oddcully	,(deref a)
17:55	clojurebot	{:x 42}
17:58	dhardison	oh, i tried assoc @x :x 42 --- that's my mistake thanks
17:59	amalloy	dhardison: remember, all an atom is, is a mutable pointer to a value that, like most things in clojure, is immutable. once you derefence it, you're left with an immutable value that knows nothing about the atom it "came from"
19:09	Atlas_darkly	hello
19:24	TEttinger	,"\u0000hey!\u0000\is this nul terminated?"
19:24	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unsupported escape character: \i>
19:24	TEttinger	,"\u0000hey!\u0000is this nul terminated?"
19:24	clojurebot	"
19:24	TEttinger	woah
19:28	Atlas_darkly	wut
19:36	TEttinger	,(count "\u0000hey!\u0000is this nul terminated?")
19:36	clojurebot	29
19:36	TEttinger	weird
19:36	TimMc	Maybe an IRC thing.
19:40	Atlas_darkly	yo
19:43	TimMc	&"\u0000"
19:43	lazybot	⇒ "
19:43	TimMc	foobar
19:44	TimMc	hmm, can't type a NUL in irssi
20:17	creese	Does the core lib have anything that format a string using values from a map?
21:05	gfredericks	creese: no but I wrote such a thing
21:06	gfredericks	creese: https://github.com/gfredericks/like-format-but-with-named-args
21:43	ToBeReplaced	creese: gfredericks: org.clojure/core.incubator gives clojure.core.strint
21:44	gfredericks	yep
21:45	Atlas_darkly	Madmao was better
22:06	StarBreaker	Atlas_darkly: :)
22:07	Atlas_darkly	How do you tag someone in a comment like that? (New to IRC
22:07	Atlas_darkly	)
22:09	StarBreaker	Depends on the client you use, but generally it works when you type the beginning of the nick and hit tab
22:10	Atlas_darkly	thanks
22:11	StarBreaker	np
22:16	gniquil	clojure noob here, but which text editor should I use. I am most familiar with Sublime but it seems there's nothing good for Sublime3. And I also use Vim a lot. Any suggestions? Oh and Vundle or Pathogen?
22:21	amalloy	gniquil: use the one you're familiar with. i'm fairly sure there are people who use sublime text, although it is sorta last on my list of "clojure editors to recommend"
22:21	amalloy	if you're also comfortable with vim i'd recommend that over ST
22:22	gniquil	I am mostly... been using it for 5 years prior, but haven't been my main editor for last 1
22:22	gniquil	but then I found these pathogen and vundle debate
22:22	gniquil	the quote complete thing really bugs me in Sublime text
22:23	gniquil	and no repl integration (at least haven't found anything yet)
22:43	kristof	People don't use emacs anymore?
22:44	tbaldridge	sure we do. About 50% of Clojure devs use Emacs
22:44	tbaldridge	The rest of us use vi, or Cursive, or something else
22:44	blkcat	i'm not even an emacs fan and i still use emacs when working with clojure
22:44	kristof	curious why amalloy didn't mention it then :(
22:44	gfredericks	he's overcompensating
22:44	kristof	oh good
22:45	amalloy	kristof: of course people use emacs. but i was being asked by a vim user
22:45	amalloy	and recommending that he use emacs was wrong
22:45	kristof	amalloy: I didn't read that part of his question, I'm sorry
22:45	tbaldridge	That being said, I used to use emacs, but don't care for it anymore.
22:45	kristof	tbaldridge: Oh that's interesting. All the videos I've ever seen you in use emacs.
22:46	tbaldridge	Yep, I switched about a year ago, almost all my vids on pivotshare use Cursive
22:47	tbaldridge	it's really hard to beat a custom tuned IDE. General use, customizable editors are great, but if all I do is program clojure, something that targets that directly is often much better.
22:47	tbaldridge	At least that's been my experience with Cursive, PyCharm, and Visual Studio (for C#)
22:48	kristof	tbaldridge: I used Intellij a lot back when I was using java and liked it a fair bit, so I'm glad to see that Cursive builds on that