#clojure – 2015-04-02

2015-04-02

00:54	irctc_	Hi, I am new to clojure, wanna to implement 'interleave' but get stuck....anyone helps me: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/29404906/clojure-practice-interleave-outofmemoryerror
00:54	irctc_	?
01:02	justin_smith	irctc_: a small thing - (conj (conj a b) c) is the same as (conj a b c)
01:03	justin_smith	irctc_: on every recursion, your col1 and col2 are the same value
01:03	justin_smith	perhaps you meant to do first in a let inside the loop
01:03	justin_smith	or use destructuring
01:13	justin_smith	answered on SO
01:28	irctc_	I am trying not to use reference &
04:12	borkdude	ordnungswidrig I want to serve up an s3 url with a redirect from my api at GET /picture, so anyone having an <img src="/picture"/> gets the picture from s3. is there a normal way to accomplish this with liberator or should I use ring-response
04:37	borkdude	justin_smith do you know how to put an object with amazonica to set it public? I don't want to do this by default, but in some cases
04:41	ordnungswidrig	borkdude: I guess using plain ring-redirect would be easier. But liberator can do that, you need to return true from :moved-permanently? or :moved-temporarily? and set the :location in the context.
04:42	ordnungswidrig	borkdude: i.e. you can return {:location "http://whatever-s3-url/buck/pig.jpg"} from those decisions
04:42	borkdude	ordnungswidrig ah I tried returning {:location ...} in :moved-temporarily? but that didn't work somehow
04:42	borkdude	ordnungswidrig with a get request
04:42	borkdude	ordnungswidrig anyway I used this now (fn [ctx]
04:42	borkdude	(ring-response
04:42	borkdude	(redirect (str (::s3-url ctx)))))
04:42	borkdude	in handle-ok
04:43	ordnungswidrig	I guess you would need to return false from :exists? and true from :existed?
04:44	ordnungswidrig	borkdude: that's not very intuitive, I must admit :-)
04:44	borkdude	ordnungswidrig in exists? I return {::s3-url ...}
04:44	borkdude	if the file indeed exists
04:45	ordnungswidrig	borkdude: if you want to redirect on get, then exists must return false.
04:45	borkdude	ordnungswidrig you mean by spec or by liberator?
04:46	borkdude	ordnungswidrig it works now I must say
04:46	ordnungswidrig	borkdude: in liberator. Here's an example: https://gist.github.com/ordnungswidrig/d9013659e1f7a80ea584
04:46	borkdude	ordnungswidrig ah ok
04:47	borkdude	ordnungswidrig I'm not sure if that is correct to say if something moved permanently when you're just saying: yes, it exists, but the file is on s3?
04:48	ordnungswidrig	The :exists? callback called from the view of the liberator resource. If the client should look somewhere else it makes sense to do that only if the resource does not exist.
04:50	borkdude	ordnungswidrig I look at it this way: the resource does exist, because the client uploaded a file (which I delegate to s3). When the user requests the resource, I return the s3 url. I only use the redirect to make it easier for the client. But maybe this is not the correct way to look at it then.
04:51	ordnungswidrig	borkdude: interesting case. that means the resource exists at your host, say, a DELETE request would go there, but you want to server GETs from a different location
04:51	ordnungswidrig	borkdude: right?
04:52	borkdude	ordnungswidrig right
04:53	ordnungswidrig	borkdude: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7231#section-6.4.4
04:54	borkdude	ordnungswidrig it seems the only way to get to 303 is via post in liberator?
04:55	ordnungswidrig	borkdude: yes, only for posit right now. the spec it talks about 303 for GET requests. I think that's something that's missing in liberator, maybe ":other-location?" that comes before :multiple-representation?
04:56	borkdude	sounds good to me
05:00	ordnungswidrig	borkdude: dare to file an issue?
05:00	borkdude	ordnungswidrig yes, I'll do
05:05	borkdude	ordnungswidrig https://github.com/clojure-liberator/liberator/issues/205
05:06	ordnungswidrig	borkdude: hurray!
05:06	mrchance	hi! I have a dependency problem that is driving me crazy. I want to use lein gorilla, but still use the latest cider nrepl. For some reason though, it always pulls tools.nrepl 0.2.6 and cider-nrepl 0.8.1 even though I excluded them where possible
05:06	mrchance	Any ideas?
05:09	mrchance	also, lein deps :tree lists nrepl 0.2.6 as a top level dependency for whatever reason, it's definitely not in my project.clj
05:13	ordnungswidrig	mrchance: is it in your ~/.lein/profiles.clj?
05:15	mrchance	ordnungswidrig: no, profiles only has a single plugin in it, the cider-nrepl 0.9.0 snapshot
05:17	mrchance	aha, this might be related: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/1569
05:40	TEttinger	cfleming: I'm taking the leap. I'm installing Cursive for the first time. I'll let you know my first impressions when it gets up and running
05:41	cfleming	TEttinger: I'm trying to figure out whether Cursive is the red pill or the blue pill
05:42	mrchance	ok, for anyone interested... :dependencies ^:replace {foo...} fixed it for me
05:42	TEttinger	I do take a lot of pills
05:42	cfleming	TEttinger: But either way, great, very interested to know how you find it!
05:44	cfleming	TEttinger: Are you used to vim or Emacs? Or something else?
05:44	TEttinger	light table and nightcode
05:44	TEttinger	and a lot of jEdit
05:45	cfleming	Ah ok - hopefully won't be too much of a shock then
05:45	TEttinger	the last straw with nightcode was looking in the task manager and seeing that using the IDE to stop processes wasn't actually ending the process
05:45	TEttinger	so I had something like 13 clojure apps open in various broken states
05:45	cfleming	What's your opinion on the light table inline eval?
05:46	TEttinger	it never worked for me
05:46	TEttinger	I was doing stuff that needed weird thread things
05:46	cfleming	Ok
05:46	cfleming	Just curious
05:46	TEttinger	either stuff needed the opengl render context stuff that I don't claim to understand, or had to be on the swing render thread
05:46	TEttinger	and that apparently didn't work with inline eval
05:47	cfleming	No, it wouldn't, since the evaluation is asychronous
05:47	cfleming	You'd get back the results of putting something into an executor or whatever - probably nil
05:52	egli	mrchance: what exactly did you add to your project.clj?
05:55	mrchance	egli: just a ^:replace metadata tag to my dependencies
05:57	mrchance	egli: according to the issues, this might work too {:profiles {:base {:dependencies ^:replace []}}}
05:58	mrchance	I am curious how other people deal with this... If you use the latest standard elpa package, you are bound to have this problem with older cider versions all the time
05:59	mrchance	I couldn't ignore it either because it broke things like cider completion...
06:00	mrchance	and this problem doesn't seem limited to projects involving gorilla-repl
06:03	oluap	Is clojure a good first programming language? I only know html/css and did some basic tutorials about python, ruby and javascript .
06:04	dstockton	oluap: probably, it has simple syntax
06:04	dstockton	might ruin other languages for you
06:04	mrchance	oluap: I'd say yes, easy to set up and try, and simple syntax
06:04	mrchance	also what dstockton said ^^
06:05	mrchance	certainly made programming python a lot less fun for me :)
06:10	oluap	I was searching the interwebs for some beginner stuff on clojure but I had no luck do far. It seems that every tutorial/books are geared to programmers and not for beginners
06:11	mrchance	oluap: true, that is a bit rare. You can try the basics here: http://www.tryclj.com/
06:13	mrchance	There are also some good books, "Clojure programming" or "Clojure in Action" that should be suitable to beginners
06:13	dstockton	oluap: you made it to #clojure, i don't believe you're such a beginner
06:14	mavbozo	mrchance, no problem with me doing lein new gorilla-test and adding :plugins [[lein-gorilla "0.3.4" :exclusions [[cider/cider-nrepl]]] ] in my project repl
06:15	mavbozo	mrchance, lein deps :tree list [cider/cider-nrepl "0.8.2"] (my current cider-nrepl plugin) at the top level
06:15	mavbozo	s/project repl/project.clj/
06:16	mavbozo	mrchance, also it list [org.clojure/tools.nrepl "0.2.7"] which is what I currently use
06:17	mrchance	mavbozo: hm, for me emacs still says "WARNING: CIDER requires nREPL 0.2.7 to work properly"
06:18	mrchance	mavbozo: my last line of deps :tree output says: [org.clojure/tools.nrepl "0.2.6" ... ]
06:19	mavbozo	mrchance, no warning from when connecting from emacs's cider
06:20	mrchance	mavbozo: weird, what could it be? my leiningen is 2.5.1
06:20	mavbozo	mrchance: ah, maybe because I had :dependencies [[org.clojure/tools.nrepl "0.2.7"]] in my :user key in ~/.lein/profiles.clj
06:20	mrchance	mavbozo: possible :)
06:20	mavbozo	s/had/have/
06:21	oluap	dstockton: What do you mean by that?
06:21	mrchance	but I would be happy if that was sufficient
06:21	mrchance	lemme try
06:23	mrchance	mavbozo: ok, that combination works too. Nice! Maybe I messed up somewhere else earlier
06:24	mrchance	mavbozo: although I do find it a bit silly that you need to put in an explicit nrepl dependency when cider requires it to work correctly
06:25	mavbozo	oluap, these days, it's rare seeing a beginner programmer who knows IRC
06:26	mrchance	requires a later version, I mean
06:27	oluap	mavbozo: I am no computer illiterate and i am not that young :)
06:33	elvis4526	How can I see what a macro will generate ?
06:33	elvis4526	i'll try (macroexpand-1)
06:34	ordnungswidrig	elvis4526: ,(macroexpand-1 '(defn foo []))
06:34	ordnungswidrig	,(macroexpand-1 '(defn foo []))
06:34	clojurebot	(def foo (clojure.core/fn ([])))
06:37	elvis4526	Okay. Then I don't get why this http://pastie.org/10069423 only return map.
06:38	elvis4526	where is the rest of the body ?
06:38	ordnungswidrig	elvis4526: what do you want to achieve?
06:38	elvis4526	I'm trying to understand macros
06:38	elvis4526	I had a map that had function as value
06:39	elvis4526	and I wanted to "inject" something redundant to each function as the first arg.
07:44	egli	mrchance: I used to have my work environment change from under me when doing cider upgradesI just stick to stable cider
07:44	egli	now I just stick to stable cider
07:45	egli	i.e. set package-archives to melpa-stable
07:45	egli	mrchance: and thanks for the ^:replace stuff. I'll try it out
07:55	gfredericks	elvis4526: you passed the symbol map to postwalk
07:55	gfredericks	because of the quote on line 9
07:56	gfredericks	,(clojure.walk/postwalk #(if (list? %) "" %) 'map)
07:57	clojurebot	#error{:cause "clojure.walk", :via [{:type java.lang.ClassNotFoundException, :message "clojure.walk", :at [java.net.URLClassLoader$1 run "URLClassLoader.java" 366]}], :trace [[java.net.URLClassLoader$1 run "URLClassLoader.java" 366] [java.net.URLClassLoader$1 run "URLClassLoader.java" 355] [java.security.AccessController doPrivileged "AccessController.java" -2] [java.net.URLClassLoader findClass "...
07:57	gfredericks	,(require 'clojure.walk)
07:57	clojurebot	nil
07:57	gfredericks	,(clojure.walk/postwalk #(if (list? %) "" %) 'map)
07:57	clojurebot	map
08:27	borkdude	I am adding type hints to this call: (PutObjectRequest. ^String bucket key ^String file)
08:27	borkdude	but I'm still getting "call to constructor cannot be resolved"
08:28	borkdude	argh, File
08:28	borkdude	hmm, still not working when changed to file
08:29	borkdude	whoops
08:29	borkdude	I forgot one I see. fixed
09:09	timvisher	lein is consistently attempting to retrieve `-SNAPSHOT` deps from all repos (including `releases`) and non `-SNAPSHOT` deps from all repos (including `snapshots`).
09:09	timvisher	specifically for our private repo
09:10	timvisher	i thought that the only special thing that needed to be done to not get that behavior was to name the repos as `snapshots` and `releases`.
09:10	timvisher	is that not the case?
09:10	timvisher	specifically, i want to avoid trying to retrieve released deps from `snapshots` and snapshot deps from `releases` (because obviously they're not there)
09:11	noncom	people who have used Neo4j with clojure, tell me please, what should i use, neocons or borneo for the db driver lib?
09:17	timvisher	!rng neocons\|borneo
09:17	timvisher	heh. this isn't #nethack...
09:17	timvisher	,(doc rand-nth)
09:17	clojurebot	"([coll]); Return a random element of the (sequential) collection. Will have the same performance characteristics as nth for the given collection."
09:17	timvisher	,(rand-nth ["neocons" "borneo"])
09:17	clojurebot	"borneo"
09:18	timvisher	borneo it is :)
09:23	timvisher	bah
09:23	timvisher	i do not understand classpaths
09:23	timvisher	this much is clear
09:24	timvisher	where can i go to read about this?
09:25	mrchance	timvisher: what exactly is the problem? Naming the repos doesn't make a difference, as far as I know it's decided by the artifact version string
09:26	John-kkk	3b FREE STEAM GAMES http://tinyurl.com/ptv3gfv
09:27	mrchance	timvisher: look at https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj , specifically the repositories section, it has some keys like :snapshots false, don't know if that helps
09:27	TEttinger	doesn't sound like spam at all!
09:27	mrchance	TEttinger: I know, right? Let's totally click that!
09:27	kaiyin	https://gist.github.com/kindlychung/d8fe3270366dbda4703c why do i keep getting this error?
09:28	timvisher	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj#L94-L95
09:29	timvisher	mrchance: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj#L94-L95
09:29	timvisher	setting those keys manually as well doesn't seem to change anything
09:30	timvisher	but that's where i'm getting my info from
09:33	noncom	kaiyin: coz your filter predicate on line 85 accepts 0 args
09:33	noncom	kaiyin: but filter tries to pass 1 arg to it
09:34	kaiyin	oh. i see.
09:35	noncom	also, you can name the fns like (fn my-pred-fn [_] (your-predicate-goes-here)) so that the stack trace will show the actual fn name that caused the error
09:35	kaiyin	noncom: cool, thanks
09:38	mrchance	timvisher: hm, ok, in that case I don't know ^^
09:40	noncom	timvisher: uh, and i went with neocons as of now.. based on same random choice :)
09:40	noncom	kaiyin: hey, what's the wumpus game btw?
09:41	justin_smith	borkdude: I haven't used amizonica, but there should be some operation that sets the access perms for a file, in clj-aws-s3 the function is called "grant"
09:41	noncom	will it be playable anytime?
09:42	borkdude	justin_smith I figured it out via native Java for now
09:42	justin_smith	OK
09:42	borkdude	justin_smith is it true that you have to set the content-type manually when uploading files to s3?
09:42	kaiyin	noncom: it's a dummy game from the land of lisp book. :)
09:43	justin_smith	borkdude: I always have
09:43	borkdude	ok
09:44	noncom	kaiyin: eh, i was hoping to see one more clojure game! :D google images show loads of appetizing images on "wumpus" query.. :) awakens something nethacky inside, from looking at the pics..
09:45	justin_smith	noncom: hunt the wumpus is an old school unix classic text UI game
09:47	noncom	oh.. i totally missed all that stuff..
10:51	jaspp	Can you break down this simple problem? (def v [[:col1 :up] [:col2 :dn] [:col3]]) convert to "col1 up, col2 dn, col3" Going in circles with nested map calls, reduce, join.
10:52	jaspp	What's the functional thought process when looking at this..?
10:54	mgaare	jaspp: try to think about the end result and define it in terms of the input, first
10:54	hyPiRion	jaspp: Try to find an implementation where as many parts are independent of each other – for instance, converting [:col1 :up] to "col1 up" is independent of the other two pieces
10:54	hyPiRion	And converting :col1 to "col1" is independent of converting :up to "up"
10:55	hyPiRion	also, a good tip
10:55	hyPiRion	,(require '[clojure.string :as s])
10:55	clojurebot	nil
10:55	hyPiRion	,(s/join ", " ["foo" "bar" "baz"])
10:55	clojurebot	"foo, bar, baz"
10:56	timvisher	hyPiRion: can you describe how i would go about removing side-effecty tests from my classpath in lein?
10:56	timvisher	if you've got a moment?
10:56	timvisher	my problem is that when they're loaded they do some registry stuff that they probably shouldn't but they do it anyway, and i thought i could solve it by using `:test-paths`
10:57	timvisher	but when i do that, the whole classpath seems to go bananas and the tests can't find anything
10:57	hyPiRion	timvisher: that sounds like a bug
10:57	jaspp	mgaare: not quite sure what you mean.
10:58	hyPiRion	timvisher: so if you have {:profiles {:foo {:test-paths ["another-test-path"]}}} and you do `lein with-profile +foo test` it just borks up?
10:59	mgaare	jaspp: for me, anyway, it helps with breaking something down into its steps. in this case something like, "take a vector of vector of keywords, and return a string where each subvector's contents are converted into space-separated strings, and subvectors are separated by a comma and space"
10:59	timvisher	hyPiRion: ok. i'm understanding things correctly though right? each entry in `:test-paths ["some/deep/structure"]` and source is in `src`. so now i have `src/ns/foo/bar.clj` and `some/deep/sructure/ns/foo/bar_test.clj` and in `bar_test.clj` i `(:require [ns.foo.bar]` it should resolve just fine
11:00	timvisher	i.e. path-roots assoc their contents at the classpath root? (← is my mental model of classpaths...)
11:00	mgaare	jaspp: it starts to naturally bring out the breakdown of operations involved, describing it like that
11:01	hyPiRion	timvisher: yes
11:01	Licenser	Good afternoon folks! I was wondering if someone can give me a pointer I'm working on a CLJS/Om app and part of it is filtering a table. This filter is for some reason horribly slow. (as in >1s) even on tables with 20 elements. Which is unbelievable slow and I'm totally out of ideas where to look.
11:01	timvisher	hyPiRion: _excellent_. i will see if i can produce a minimal example project then that exhibits this behavior.
11:01	timvisher	and submit it as an issue if i can :)
11:01	mgaare	Licenser: perhaps a gist?
11:02	jaspp	mgaare: thanks.
11:02	hyPiRion	timvisher: thanks!
11:02	Licenser	mgaare good point :) I can actually do one better it's all OSS so https://github.com/project-fifo/jingles2/blob/c4db40629a22fbea97eb10ce7c5267c4ee46ebc0/src/cljs/jingles/list.cljs#L261 is the actual code doing it
11:02	jaspp	hyPiRion: thanks
11:03	Licenser	the sort-and-paginate (which handles sorting, filtering and pagiation) seems to take ~10ms
11:03	hyPiRion	np
11:04	sobel	Licenser: for what data size?
11:06	Licenser	the list is 15 elements bytes long but the underlying data are ~20kb of json
11:07	Licenser	but the whole 20kb ar't rndered
11:07	Glenjamin	Licenser: it's tricky to tell, as i'm more used to react than om
11:08	Glenjamin	but i think you need a key prop on the list of elements
11:08	Glenjamin	so react knows to re-order, instead of rebuild
11:08	Licenser	Glenjamin that's an itneresting pointer let me try that
11:08	sobel	20k is how many elements?
11:08	Licenser	15
11:08	Glenjamin	i don't know how you do that in om, but that's likely to be the problem, if the sort is fast but the redraw is slow
11:10	Licenser	there seems to be a :react-key call
11:10	Licenser	s/call/keyword/
11:14	Glenjamin	sounds like the one
11:14	Licenser	thanks mate I'll investigate that!
11:15	jaspp	mgaare: hyPiRion: (s/join ", " (map #(->> % (map name) (s/join " ")) [[:a :b] [:c :d] [:e]]))
11:15	jaspp	mgaare: hyPiRion: => "a b, c d, e"
11:16	justin_smith	jaspp: I think I would replace your nested map with a mapcat before doing the string/join
11:17	justin_smith	err, (mapcat #(map name ...) ...)
11:19	jaspp	justin_smith: thanks for the tip, will try that.
11:34	noncom	did anyone use neocons for neo4j? i have a simple question on querying relations
12:07	geirby	hello
12:07	mavbozo	hello
12:08	justin_smith	~hello
12:08	clojurebot	BUENOS DING DONG DIDDLY DIOS, fRaUline justin_smith
12:09	justin_smith	http://thebarking.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/lionel-poster.jpg
12:10	geirby	is there a way to fix a staircased code? I ended up having "(reduce ...(assoc ..(reduce ... (assoc (reduce ..." when transforming a map
12:10	justin_smith	geirby: -> / ->> help a lot
12:10	justin_smith	as do let blocks
12:10	justin_smith	let in clojure is like let* in other lisps, you can refer back to prior definitions
12:11	geirby	cheers, I'll give it a try
12:12	sobel	so, recommendations on logging approaches/tools?
12:12	justin_smith	sobel: timbre is good
12:13	sobel	what's idiomatic for logging? when i wrote OO i just littered my member fcns with log stmts
12:13	sobel	is there some clever trick that's clojury i might not think of as a noob?
12:14	justin_smith	why would it requier a trick? logging is by definition imperative
12:15	justin_smith	I mean there are things like doto that act on a thing and then return the thing, I guess
12:15	justin_smith	,(doto 42 println)
12:15	clojurebot	42\n42
12:16	sobel	hafta ask
12:16	gfredericks	sobel: I sometimes use aspect-oriented tactics to logging
12:16	gfredericks	like you can do a lot via alter-var-root
12:16	gfredericks	or the robert.hooke lib
12:17	sobel	gfredericks: i understand AOP more-or-less mechanically and did some with artifacts like Spring and annotations in Java but I don't know what it looks like in Clojure
12:17	justin_smith	(doc alter-var-root)
12:17	clojurebot	"([v f & args]); Atomically alters the root binding of var v by applying f to its current value plus any args"
12:18	justin_smith	sobel: so you repleace foo with a function that logs, then calls foo with the args, then logs again. maybe
12:18	sobel	ah ok
12:18	gfredericks	sobel: I think it's probably worth jumping straight to robert.hooke though
12:18	sobel	i'm starting to agree with that
12:18	gfredericks	alter-var-root has too many pitfalls to bother with
12:18	gfredericks	mainly figuring out how to not accidentally wrap your function twice
12:19	sobel	i don't need more language risk at this point
12:19	sobel	:)
12:19	justin_smith	gfredericks: does it provide a way to undo the wrapping? that's another gotcha with alter-var-root
12:19	gfredericks	justin_smith: totes
12:19	gfredericks	permanently or temporarily
12:20	justin_smith	gfredericks: here's a fun one, I was playing around and decided to use alter-var-root to wrap some, turns out that apply calls some and I had apply inside the wrapping code
12:21	justin_smith	I mean naturally you would use apply if you are using alter-var-root
12:21	gfredericks	so natural
12:22	sobel	alrighty, i remember reading about robert.hooke and thinking it was a lot more than i needed but it's very attractive now
12:23	gfredericks	I wish there was a good structured logging library that also had a set of helpers hooks or something for that kind of use
12:23	justin_smith	sobel: it's actually a pretty small lib, LOC wise
12:23	gfredericks	I've thought about it some though and am not sure what a good API for that would be
12:23	justin_smith	gfredericks: doesn't timbre have some of that?
12:24	arohner	I'm having trouble getting cider and clojure-mode (re) installed. When I (require 'cider), I get "no such file or directory" "dash". According to package-list-packages, dash is installed
12:24	justin_smith	gfredericks: no, there's something else I was thinking of...
12:24	gfredericks	justin_smith: is timbre even structured?
12:25	justin_smith	I don't think so
12:25	gfredericks	then I don't even
12:25	justin_smith	gfredericks: so you're thinking of maybe timbre + structured + tools.trace ?
12:25	gfredericks	well you'd want a lot of options around how you attach logging to a function
12:26	gfredericks	in terms of before/after, how you decide which args+return to log, what about exceptions
12:26	sobel	the naming puns in clojure-land are pretty much consant amusement for me.
12:27	wes_	Hello
12:27	justin_smith	~hello wes_
12:27	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
12:29	wes__	So, when I do lein run, my -main function fails to find my other functions (in the same file). Why is this?
12:29	gfredericks	justin_smith: and I feel like any decent such lib would have to like copypaste its serializer too, whether json or edn
12:29	gfredericks	wes__: what's the error message?
12:29	justin_smith	wes__: something else is wrong
12:30	wes__	Attempting to call unbound fn: #'myapp.core/make-new-frame
12:30	justin_smith	wes__: how and where do you define make-new-frame?
12:31	wes__	just below (defn -main ...)
12:31	justin_smith	wes__: that doesn't work
12:31	wes__	oh, it compiles from the top down?
12:31	justin_smith	yes
12:32	justin_smith	wes__: so that the repl and files will work the same way
12:32	justin_smith	it actually simplifies things in that way
12:35	sobel	justin_smith: do you know/see any reason why i couldn't use timbre and robert.hooke together?
12:35	wes__	ok. What do you do if you have two mutually recursive functions? They call each other. Won't you get errors?
12:36	justin_smith	wes__: for mutual recursion we have letfn or declare
12:36	justin_smith	sobel: seems like you could combine them, sure
12:36	sobel	imperative logging, integrated as aspects
12:36	justin_smith	sobel: and throw in cheshire to make the nifty thing gfredericks wants maybe :)
12:37	sobel	great. thanks for support, too. it's been a luxury to have basic guidance while i code in a new-to-me language. i haven't wasted an hour on newb stuff yet, other than basic learning of the language.
12:37	justin_smith	gfredericks: actually, yeah, I bet we could combine timbre, cheshire, and robert.hooke to make a really easy aspect oriented structured logger
12:37	justin_smith	it would be straightforward I think
12:38	justin_smith	sobel: glad we could help
12:38	sobel	ah, i have no need for JSON output right now. this needs to be human readable.
12:38	wes__	Thanks for the help, Justin
12:38	justin_smith	then surely you'll want XML then
12:38	justin_smith	wes__: np
12:38	sobel	now that's just inhumane
12:38	justin_smith	you're the one who brought up "human readable"
12:38	justin_smith	haha
12:39	sobel	=)
12:40	gfredericks	log in json, get human readability w/ jq
12:40	justin_smith	gfredericks: fuck it, I'm gonna try making that logging lib.
12:40	gfredericks	justin_smith: yeah, fuck it.
12:41	gfredericks	justin_smith: make sure to paste in the cheshire code so you can provide default seralizations
12:41	justin_smith	huh?
12:41	justin_smith	why would that require pasting?
12:42	gfredericks	so you don't stomp on the user's ability to use cheshire for something else
12:42	justin_smith	is this some terrible thing about cheshire I am about to learn?
12:42	justin_smith	ahh
12:42	gfredericks	nothing you didn't already know
12:42	gfredericks	just that its extension points are global modifications yay
12:42	gfredericks	same as clj's printer
12:42	justin_smith	gfredericks: I wonder if I can use locally derived heirarchies for this
12:42	justin_smith	since they are multimethods, right?
12:42	gfredericks	uhms
12:42	justin_smith	and you can make local heirarchies
12:43	gfredericks	I mean regardless you have to paste
12:43	gfredericks	even ifcheshire does work that way which I doubt
12:43	gfredericks	because the hierarchy is fixed with the multimethod
12:44	justin_smith	I'd have to make derived multimethods...
12:44	gfredericks	if you wanna go down the rabbit hole, write a json lib that lets you pass in opts for how to convert various objects
12:44	justin_smith	hrphm
12:44	justin_smith	yeah
12:44	justin_smith	good point, thanks
12:44	gfredericks	while you're at it do an edn lib
12:44	gfredericks	or go down another rabbit whole and try to write one lib that does both
12:44	gfredericks	hole*
12:45	justin_smith	gfredericks: I just had coffee, not crack
12:45	justin_smith	thanks for the ideas though :)
12:45	justin_smith	haha
12:45	gfredericks	aaand this is why I haven't written a logging lib yet :P
12:45	justin_smith	gets ugly doesn't it
12:45	justin_smith	yeah
12:45	sobel	logging is on my short list for, "you'll shoot your eye out, kid"
12:45	sobel	it is...more than meets the eye
12:45	gfredericks	but pasting cheshire is a quicker way to getting the logging lib
12:46	justin_smith	gfredericks: what about clojure.data.json?
12:46	gfredericks	...or paste that
12:46	gfredericks	c.d.j extends the same way
12:46	gfredericks	it is The Clojure Way
12:47	gfredericks	you make a global thing and tell people to punch it
12:47	justin_smith	gfredericks: what about a tree walk between the input data and the logging, that replaces types with types proprietary to one's own lib, and letting users add to that mapping?
12:47	gfredericks	yeah if you want to walk every dang thing that gets logged, that is a feasible approach
12:48	justin_smith	you could provide walked and unwalked, with the proper caveats
12:48	justin_smith	I mean, creating json out of clojure data is already a tree walk
12:49	justin_smith	gfredericks: now I am thinking this thing needs to be named after a cross of paul bunyon and a monkey
12:50	sobel	i thought all clojure libraries started with theme and inspiration as foundation
12:50	sobel	it's a lot harder to snark about clojure tools. this is harder than i thought.
12:51	justin_smith	heh
12:51	sobel	python+friends were fish in a barrel, i tell ya
12:51	justin_smith	is obscure-reference already taken?
12:51	justin_smith	(may as well go meta)
12:51	sobel	hehe
12:53	justin_smith	lein new abstruse
12:53	justin_smith	$dict abstruce
12:53	lazybot	justin_smith: Word not found.
12:53	sobel	so i've been thinking about a monsterous app that would basically be built around a DAO that can grab SQL as well as Clojure from a database, and build the app infrastructure around that, using that
12:53	justin_smith	:P
12:53	justin_smith	$dict abstruse
12:53	lazybot	justin_smith: adjective: Difficult to understand; recondite. See Synonyms at ambiguous.
12:53	sobel	oh, i like recondite
12:53	sobel	that should be a library
12:54	justin_smith	$dict recondite
12:54	lazybot	justin_smith: adjective: Not easily understood; abstruse. See Synonyms at ambiguous.
12:54	justin_smith	haha, they point to each other
12:54	justin_smith	(inc sobel)
12:54	lazybot	⇒ 1
12:54	justin_smith	recondite is a good name for it
12:54	sobel	there is already a C++ library called Recondite
12:55	justin_smith	sobel: technomancy worked on serializable functions if that's what you mean about clojure from a database
12:55	justin_smith	https://github.com/technomancy/serializable-fn
12:57	Frozenlock	https://github.com/Frozenlock/force-serialize
12:57	Frozenlock	:-p
12:57	sobel	justin_smith: that is really nice. i figured, even without that, it would be viable to eval from db resultsets
12:57	justin_smith	Frozenlock: wow, the readmes are like the same...
12:57	sobel	hehe
12:58	justin_smith	ahh, now that I look closer, I get it
12:58	Frozenlock	"An almost exact copy of serializable-fn."
13:00	wes__	I've gotten my application to compile with uberjar, but when I move it to another computer it fails to find the main class
13:00	justin_smith	wes__: when you uberjar, two jars get made
13:00	justin_smith	only one of them is the actual uberjar
13:01	sobel	imho: it should not build the dep-free jar unless you explicitly flag it
13:02	justin_smith	sobel: it builds the dep free one as an intermediate step. The choice is whether to delete it or not.
13:02	sobel	ah ok
13:02	wes__	I've tried the one in uberjar and uberjar+uberjar, but neighter work
13:02	wes__	neither
13:03	justin_smith	did you turn on :gen-class or :aot for your main ns? because if not you need to do java -cp your-uber.jar clojure.main -m your.ns
13:04	justin_smith	if you turned on gen-class or aot it should be set up to just run with java -jar your-uber.jar
13:04	sobel	my project was generated with :gen-class
13:05	sobel	what is the meaning of (:gen-class) ? is it calling a key?
13:05	justin_smith	sobel: ns turns things like (:require ...) and (:gen-class) into function calls
13:05	sobel	ah right, because those are lists until the called context evals them
13:06	sobel	mental compile still in static mode
13:06	sobel	compiler
13:15	Licenser	So quick feedback to my problem, here is what happens. I had a filter that updated the state and then dew the table however the 'new' state was not put into the function but the old one (pre entering the filter) so it took a render loop (I guess?) that could be triggered seconds later to actually cause the update to appear in the browser
13:22	timvisher	is it possible to combine test.check with midje?
13:22	timvisher	i.e. can test.check generate facts?
13:23	reiddraper	timvisher: think there are some examples here http://zotskolf.nl/2014/11/10/testcheckbasics.html
13:24	timvisher	reiddraper: neat! i wonder if i ever would have thought to assert against the results of quick-check :)
13:24	timvisher	(inc reiddraper)
13:24	lazybot	⇒ 6
13:25	gfredericks	clojurebot: reiddraper is underrated
13:25	clojurebot	Ok.
13:25	mavbozo	(inc reiddraper)
13:25	lazybot	⇒ 7
13:59	wes__	So, turns out: If you build an uberjar with JRD8, it MAY not run on a system with JRE6
14:00	justin_smith	wes__: using java code, or pure clojure?
14:00	wes__	pure clojure
14:00	wes__	well... maybe not
14:00	justin_smith	that's a bug then
14:00	justin_smith	maybe not pure clojure?
14:00	gfredericks	we've had a guy doing an 8->7 build and it only broke when we added java code
14:00	wes__	I used PDFBoxing which is a wrapper of PDFBox and Seesaw
14:01	justin_smith	Seesaw is just using built in classes
14:01	justin_smith	is PDFBox jre6 compatible?
14:01	wes__	yep, it works when I compiled with jre6
14:01	justin_smith	OK, you found a bug in clojure then
14:03	wes__	So, by pure clojure you mean not using PDFBox right?
14:03	justin_smith	no
14:03	justin_smith	I mean not using any java source
14:03	justin_smith	only java that's been compiled in a way that is 1.6 compatible
14:03	wes__	Ok, thanks again
14:04	justin_smith	wes__: there are javac options to make sure java 8 outputs something 1.6 compatible, but if your project isn't compiling any java code, than any incompatibility in your uberjar is a clojure bug
14:04	timvisher	reiddraper: man. thank you for test.check and for how you return a map instead of printing something when it succeeds. _good job_ :)
14:05	wes__	oh, ok. I understand now
14:05	timvisher	(inc data)
14:05	lazybot	⇒ 1
14:05	wes__	I'll submit a ticket
14:05	timvisher	(inc-lots data)
14:06	Bronsa	wes__: what's the issue?
14:07	wes__	I had JDK8 set in my PATH, and compiled an uberjar. It ran fine on my computer but would not run on other computers here at work. I checked all the :gen-class etc, but nothing would work. Until I changed my PATH variable for java to point to JRE6. Then the uberjar ran on the other computers (we use JRE6 at work)
14:10	Bronsa	wes__: yes I got that, but what do you mean by "it would not work"? :)
14:10	Bronsa	what error did you get?
14:11	wes__	My main class could not be found.
14:11	wes__	Could not find or load main class: pdf-merger.core
14:11	Bronsa	have you tried "pdf_merger.core" instead?
14:12	justin_smith	wes__: what happens if you try my previous suggestion of "java -cp your-uber.jar clojure.main -m pdf-merger.core"
14:12	wes__	I'm sorry, that's what it said. "Could not find or load main class: pdf_merger.core"
14:14	wes__	<justinc_smith> "Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: java.awt.Component.revalidate()U"
14:15	wes__	Something to do with Seesaw?
14:15	justin_smith	wes__: is the 1.6 jre a headless jre?
14:15	justin_smith	no, because you made it work, never mind
14:16	wes__	I'm sorry, I'm kinda new. What do you mean by headless jre?
14:16	justin_smith	a jre that ships without any of the desktop related stuff (meant for servers), a common default on linux systems
14:17	wes__	I would say no. This is jre6 is installed on all our desktops and laptops
14:17	justin_smith	probably the mac default jre yeah?
14:18	wes__	Besides, it worked once I compiled with JRE6 vs JDK1.8.0_25
14:18	wes__	No, Windoze
14:19	justin_smith	right, OK
14:20	wes__	So, it's a clojure bug? or an inconsistancy between JDK1.8 and JRE6
14:20	justin_smith	wes__: the jre isn't outputting the bytecode, clojure is
14:20	justin_smith	clojure is explicitly compatible with jre6
14:21	justin_smith	so it's a clojure bug if it outputs things that are not compatible
14:21	wes__	So, you are saying that it shouldn't matter if I was using JRE6 or JDK1.8
14:21	justin_smith	right, because clojure isn't using the java compiler, it has its own embedded bytecode emitter
14:21	wes__	got it. Thanks
14:22	justin_smith	and if that is doing different things with different jres, that's a problem
14:22	Bronsa	justin_smith: wes__ unless some of the deps are explicitely checking for jre version at compile time and using a method not available in 1.6 when available
14:22	justin_smith	Bronsa: ahh, a poorly behaved lib might do that huh
14:23	Bronsa	justin_smith: wes__ this is probably what's going on actually
14:23	Bronsa	java.awt.Component.revalidate was added in 1.7
14:23	justin_smith	Bronsa: so would this happen in seesaw, or in one of its java deps?
14:24	justin_smith	open question, I don't really expect you to know off the top of your head :)
14:24	Bronsa	https://github.com/daveray/seesaw/blob/31f7e8f6af46c1c9856d3f9d8bb427a0868fbc07/src/seesaw/layout.clj#L29-L34
14:24	Bronsa	this should not work with 1.6 at all
14:25	justin_smith	maybe the type hint ends up working differently in 1.6? weird
14:25	Bronsa	ok I think I know what's happening
14:25	cespare	what is the actual definition of what a test ns is in clojure? Is it anything under test/ ? We're switching some tests from midje to clojure.test and it's running helper namespaces as tests that wasn't happening with midje
14:25	Bronsa	when compiling to 1.6 the method cannot be resolved
14:25	Bronsa	and the call ends up using reflection
14:25	wes__	I didn't use layout. Just seesaw.chooser, seesaw.dnd and seesaw.core
14:25	Bronsa	it would fail at runtime
14:25	justin_smith	cespare: in clojure.test a test is a var with the :test metadata set
14:26	justin_smith	cespare: "test ns" is a convention that clojure.test is agnostic to
14:26	cespare	justin_smith: ok maybe this is a question about lein test then
14:26	justin_smith	Bronsa: that would do it
14:26	Bronsa	when compiling under 1.8 that method is resolved and the call compiles to an invokevirtual, when the class is loaded under 1.6 that fails
14:27	justin_smith	cespare: what does "running a helper namespace" mean - you have namespaces with top level side effects that are loaded in order to invoke those side effects?
14:27	cespare	it's running a helper ns and finding no tests, but this is causing problems; it seems like midje was excluding them (maybe because they weren't _test.clj files, or else because they weren't *-test namespaces?)
14:27	Bronsa	wes__: doesn't matter, maybe one of those ns requires seesaw.layout
14:27	cespare	justin_smith: yeah there's some kind of problem with records being redefined
14:27	justin_smith	cespare: I still don't know what "running and ns" means
14:28	justin_smith	*running an ns, sorry
14:28	Bronsa	wes__: the bottom line is that seesaw requires jdk 1.7 to run
14:28	cespare	justin_smith: as in, i run lein test, it prints out the namespaces that it's testing; this includes a helper ns that contains no tests
14:28	cespare	only test helper functions
14:29	justin_smith	cespare: something in that ns created a var with the :test metadata
14:29	cespare	justin_smith: nope.
14:30	justin_smith	cespare: that's the only way that clojure.test would run tests for that ns
14:30	cespare	justin_smith: at least, it does not have "deftest" nor ":test" in it.
14:30	Bronsa	doesn't lein test run all namespaces under :test-paths?
14:30	cespare	justin_smith: it's not about running tests; there are none; it's about evaluating that file twice
14:31	justin_smith	ahh, so a defrecord is being redefined?
14:31	cespare	yes
14:31	cespare	the error is "foo.bar cannot be cast to foo.bar"
14:31	justin_smith	right, redefined record
14:32	justin_smith	lein should be using require, is something in one of your namespaces using load?
14:33	cespare	justin_smith: no, but it does :import a class definition of the record in question
14:34	justin_smith	cespare: is the class required in the same ns?
14:34	justin_smith	sorry, the ns that creates that class
14:34	cespare	yes
14:34	justin_smith	that shouldn't be an issue at all then
14:38	cespare	well, the fix for now seems to be moving all of our test helper stuff out of test/ into src/
14:38	justin_smith	interesting
14:39	justin_smith	I would create a separate path before putting it in src/ myself, but that's just style
14:39	justin_smith	cespare: oh, now I get it
14:39	justin_smith	cespare: here's the deal: lein will load all .clj files under test/ in order to make sure all :test vars are defined
14:40	justin_smith	cespare: somehow I guess the namespace didn't get properly registered, so that require reloaded the file (this is the weird part)?
14:40	justin_smith	I know that lein will run tests where the namespace defined in the ns form does not match the file path, without complaint
14:40	justin_smith	(I know this from a history of being dum)
15:06	cespare	justin_smith: a trivial project with a helper namespace in test/ and a single test that requires that ns double-evals the test ns
15:07	justin_smith	cespare: that seems like it would be fixable...
15:10	gfredericks	justin_smith: what's all this "without transposition" nonsense
15:10	justin_smith	gfredericks: a just intoned scale is made of pitches that have base frequencies that are all in the same harmonic series
15:10	justin_smith	but they are transposed to all be in one octave
15:11	justin_smith	but the notes in taps are just all in one series
15:11	justin_smith	unless I am mistaken...
15:11	gfredericks	okay so you're not talking about the order of the notes at least
15:11	gfredericks	just the notes as a set
15:11	justin_smith	right, just presence or absence in the set of notes
15:11	justin_smith	right
15:11	gfredericks	okay yeah that makes sense
15:11	justin_smith	taps is made to be playable on a valveless brass instrument
15:12	gfredericks	exactly I was just typing that out
15:12	justin_smith	which means it has to only have fundamentals that are in a single harmonic series (that of the tube played)
15:13	justin_smith	fascinating stuff. My biggest sadness about all this is that people mistake the fact that we understand linear vibrations (strings, tubes) so well for the idea that their behavior is "normal"
15:13	justin_smith	most sound making things don't follow any of these rules
15:13	gfredericks	when an instrument is named for a particular key does that imply it's not tuned with equal temperment?
15:14	justin_smith	there's a name for this in math - eg. we know so much about rationals, that people mistakenly expect that most numbers are rationals, etc.
15:14	justin_smith	gfredericks: equal temperment is about ratios
15:14	TimMc	clojurebot: the internet is a series of misunderstood tubes
15:14	clojurebot	Roger.
15:14	justin_smith	the name of the key is the name of the note on the piano that it aligns with
15:14	gfredericks	sure I know what it is
15:15	gfredericks	I'm talking about e.g. a B-flat trumpet
15:15	gfredericks	and why it's useful to even categorize instruments that way
15:15	justin_smith	gfredericks: you can't have a tube or a string that is not equally tempered, it is only when you have valves, keys, frets, or multiple strings or tubes, that any temperement other than just intonation is possible
15:15	justin_smith	err, first part of that was misstated, sorry
15:15	justin_smith	s/not equally tempered/not just intonation/
15:16	gfredericks	the fretted instruments are inherently equal aren't they
15:16	justin_smith	no, they are not tempered at all
15:16	justin_smith	they are terrible hacks
15:16	justin_smith	most notes on them are out of tune, unless you do bends
15:16	gfredericks	what about a 1-string guitar
15:17	justin_smith	good luck with chords...
15:17	gfredericks	must be equal temperment
15:17	gfredericks	look at all those perfectly spaced frets
15:17	justin_smith	sure, 1 string guitar, with good fret placement and very good neck design could maybe pull it off
15:17	justin_smith	in practice they are hacks
15:17	gfredericks	what aspect of it is not equal?
15:18	justin_smith	the difference between a guitar as actually played (when doing chords at least) and either equal or just temperment, is bigger than the difference between equal and just
15:18	gfredericks	I'm still asking about a 1-string guitar
15:18	gfredericks	why is it not naturally equal temperment
15:19	justin_smith	OK, it's sensitive to finger pressure on the string, to placement of the finger between frets, to pressure in either direction on the necks, the rigidity of the string
15:19	gfredericks	sure there are variables, but assuming equal ratio'd frets, isn't equal temperment the default behavior?
15:20	justin_smith	gfredericks: what I am saying is in practice with mortal players, those noise sources are bigger than the difference between equal / just tunings
15:20	gfredericks	that's fine I'm thinking of platonic guitars
15:20	gfredericks	assume a spherical mass rolling on a frictionless plane
15:20	justin_smith	gfredericks: with a perfectly skilled virtuoso, and different fret placement on each string (wiggly frets), you could pull it off
15:21	gfredericks	there's only one string
15:21	justin_smith	I actually know people with wiggly frets on their guitars
15:21	justin_smith	sorry, yeah, it could be fine with one set of frets
15:21	gfredericks	okay so there's nothing inherently not-equal temperment about a 1-string guitar with normal frets
15:21	justin_smith	sure
15:21	gfredericks	phew
15:22	justin_smith	but your fret spacing would need to be customized for string stiffness
15:22	justin_smith	a different brand / size of string would require new fret spacing
15:22	justin_smith	for example
15:22	gfredericks	varying ratios? or a different constant ratio?
15:22	justin_smith	because the resistence to displacement is different, and the amount of tension added by displacement is different on different frets
15:23	justin_smith	gfredericks: it would be about the degree to which the string is willing to stretch, and how linear its stretching behavior is - in practice metals tend not to be very linear about such things
15:24	justin_smith	in practice, beyond a certain degree of accuracy in intonation, a guitarist needs as much skill as eg. a violinist
15:24	justin_smith	anyway, none of this is clojure, sorry :)
15:24	gfredericks	anyhow my original question was about why you name an instrument after a particular key
15:25	gfredericks	is that only done if the instrument is not equally tempered?
15:25	justin_smith	because if you play not x as trained on that instrument, you play note y in real life
15:25	gfredericks	ignoring the convention of naming the notes differently
15:26	justin_smith	it's more complicated than that - for "simplicity" sake they teach you "this fingering goes with that note", and instead of retraining for a new base frequency, they just reify the transposition from the canonical
15:26	justin_smith	so only the composer / arranger needs to get a headache
15:26	justin_smith	and not the player
15:26	gfredericks	assuming no player ever tries to play something intended for a different instrument :)
15:26	gfredericks	why would that ever happen
15:27	justin_smith	gfredericks: you use sheet music written for that instrument's transposition
15:27	gfredericks	I know
15:27	gfredericks	man I'm having a hard time getting at the root of my question
15:27	gfredericks	but fingerings is an interesting aspect
15:28	gfredericks	so if you had a magically-equally-tempermented trumpet for which the lowest open note happened to be B-flat, would you therefore call it a B-flat trumpet just because of fingerings?
15:28	justin_smith	yeah
15:29	gfredericks	just to mantain brass-instrument-coherency
15:29	justin_smith	right, it's enough to require musical virtuosity, no need to require they become mathematicians too
15:29	gfredericks	that makes sense
15:30	gfredericks	this makes me wonder why people think about temperments at all; it sounds too complicated to pull off anything specific once you have more than one instrument
15:31	gfredericks	I guess if your ear is sensitive enough you can't ignore it
15:31	justin_smith	given enough specialists, amazing things can be achieved
15:31	gfredericks	those poor tortured souls
15:34	justin_smith	There's cultural elements there too. Before the introduction of western music theory in the late 19th century, Chinese composers knew about the issues of temperment and intonation, but instead of maximizing for large numbers of notes but a small collection of available ratios, they maximized for a smaller number of notes, and a larger set of available ratios. I think you can make a direct comparison to food - european food looking for a few "best" fl
15:40	oddcully	justin_smith: got cut around ... few "best" fl
15:40	justin_smith	ahh I think you can make a direct
15:40	justin_smith	comparison to food - european food looking for a few "best" flavors and combining
15:40	justin_smith	like with like, and eastern food looking for maximal variety, and combining for
15:40	justin_smith	contrast.
15:41	justin_smith	oops, sorry
15:57	donkey_boy	hi everyone
15:57	donkey_boy	burn all jews in oven
15:57	donkey_boy	death to infidels
15:57	donkey_boy	allahu akhbar
15:57	justin_smith	hey amalloy you around?
15:58	donkey_boy	allahu akhbar
15:58	donkey_boy	death to infidels
15:59	timvisher	is it possible to affect the error message that midje delivers?
15:59	timvisher	preferably with a function that gets passed the failing value?
15:59	donkey_boy	timvisher you foul infidel jew
15:59	donkey_boy	you should be stoned to death
15:59	donkey_boy	allahu akhbar
16:00	amalloy	justin_smith: pong
16:00	justin_smith	amalloy: I think donkey_boy wants to be kicked off the channel
16:00	uris77	yeah, I ignored him already
16:00	oddcully	there are some kickbans to share
16:01	donkey_boy	justin you foul infidel you daughter should be beaten to death with a baseball bat
16:01	donkey_boy	because you are an infidel
16:01	donkey_boy	allahu akhbar
16:01	oddcully	donkey_boy: it is `your`
16:01	oddcully	oh
16:01	ntaylor	hah
16:01	oddcully	(inc amalloy)
16:01	lazybot	⇒ 250
16:01	ntaylor	I expected better from the Finnish educational system :(
16:02	timvisher	i'm asking because i'd like to midje to spit out the the `:smallest` value in the error message.
16:02	oddcully	there are bad apples everywhere
16:02	justin_smith	thanks
16:03	timvisher	looks like it might involve implementing a plugin: https://github.com/marick/Midje/wiki/Customizing-reporting
16:16	donkey_boy	burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn
16:16	donkey_boy	all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven vvvv
16:16	donkey_boy	burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven
16:16	donkey_boy	allahu akhbar
16:16	donkey_boy	death to infidels
16:16	donkey_boy	burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven burn all jews in oven
16:17	Seylerius	Ban time, I figure.
16:17	hyPiRion	amalloy: I think you need to do more than just kick them
16:17	Seylerius	(inc amalloy)
16:17	lazybot	⇒ 251
16:17	@amalloy	yeah. i was hoping i wouldn't need to remember how to do bans properly
16:19	@amalloy	hopefully that holds up
16:19	hyPiRion	I think I've seen that exact nick doing this previously, so I guess it will
16:20	oddcully	who cares... some drunk kiddo
16:20	oddcully	he wont come back anyway or else his client would have reconnected him already
16:38	TimMc	amalloy: I've never been able to find documentation on how to ban properly.
16:38	amalloy	TimMc: i found some a while ago, i just don't have to do it often and forget
16:38	amalloy	plus it's like, you have to choose. i don't want to do IP bans if i can help it
16:39	ghadishayban	bbloom: your CSP tweet really resonated.
16:40	bbloom_	ghadishayban: yeah, i'm writing some go right now ... it feels true :-P
16:40	ghadishayban	concurrency assembly
16:41	TimMc	What was the twert?
16:41	bbloom_	alt/alts/select multiplexing on queues is really all i want out of CSP
16:44	justin_smith	ghadishayban: bbloom_: TimMc: this tweet? https://twitter.com/BrandonBloom/status/583068350034485249
16:44	bbloom_	yeah
16:45	justin_smith	good discussion there
16:48	sritchie	I’d be stoked if cljx could figure out how to delete generated files for which there’s no cljx source
16:48	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
16:49	sritchie	when switching branches, for example
16:51	bbloom_	sritchie: good news. feature expressions are coming.
16:51	sritchie	ah, yeah, no gen
16:51	sritchie	so good!
17:01	nicksellen	I'm embedding clojure in a jvm which can run things like (go-loop [] (<! (timeout 1000)) (println "called") (recur)) which I need to programmatically shutdown from java. it seems perhaps not possible (https://github.com/boot-clj/boot/wiki/Pods points out threads will keep the pod alive)
17:06	justin_smith	nicksellen: you would need to shut down the core.async thread pool, because a go loop doesn't belong to a single thread
17:06	nicksellen	justin_smith: can I access that thread pool?
17:06	justin_smith	nicksellen: if you need to shut it down from the outside, better to use some object that can act as a signal (a channel or queue a message could go on, or a delay or promise, etc.)
17:07	justin_smith	nicksellen: sure, the thread pool is defined in core.async, but shutting it down would mean shutting down all core.async
17:07	sobel	so, [robert.hooke :as bob]
17:07	sobel	awesome or awesomest?
17:07	gfredericks	it's the best
17:07	nicksellen	justin_smith: thats exactly what I want to do :) the requirement is to completely remove a clojure environment (and then close the classloader).
17:08	justin_smith	nicksellen: https://github.com/clojure/core.async/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/async/impl/exec/threadpool.clj#L16 you can access it via the var
17:08	justin_smith	if you are accessing clojure via java, you probably know how to do that already
17:09	justin_smith	nicksellen: see also clojure.core/shutdown-agents if you used agents/futures at all
17:09	nicksellen	yes, I was calling shutdown-agents already.
17:09	nicksellen	just trying out the new thing, excited!
17:10	nicksellen	although I wonder if there is other things that need shutting down too... or libraries/code could arbitary create executors etc
17:11	justin_smith	nicksellen: that should be it for vanilla clojure - we'd know because those pools would prevent our jvm shutdown
17:11	justin_smith	of course any lib that wants to can create executers or threads to do whatever
17:18	nicksellen	justin_smith: success :)
17:18	justin_smith	awesome
17:20	oddcully	(inc justin_smith)
17:20	lazybot	⇒ 230
17:21	nicksellen	although it feels quite dirty accessing clojure.core.async.impl.exec.threadpool/the-executor directly
17:21	nicksellen	(clojure.core/shutdown-everything) would be nice :)
17:21	justin_smith	nicksellen: it didn't provide an abstraction for that though, so...
17:22	nicksellen	justin_smith: what didn't?
17:23	justin_smith	core.async didn't
17:23	nicksellen	ah yeah, well, or just in core generally. could have (clojure.core/register-shutdown-hook)
17:23	justin_smith	just saying, if the lib didn't abstract over something, but you can still do what you want via lower level means, I'd say it's fair enough to use those means.
17:24	justin_smith	nicksellen: clojure is quite absent of hooks in general (unless watches count I guess)
17:24	justin_smith	clojure.core at least
17:24	nicksellen	hmm I wonder if Runtime.addShutdownHook can be triggered on classloader closing
17:25	nicksellen	I'm very happy I've got this bit working though, just to make sure there are no loose references lying around, then my clojure env can be completely removed
17:39	dxlr8r	is there some problem using "future" inside a for? because it won't execute it's body. but it works with doseq. like... (for [x (range 3)] body) vs (dotimes [x 3] body)
17:39	justin_smith	dxlr8r: for is lazy
17:39	justin_smith	you need to consume its output or else it won't do anything
17:40	justin_smith	doall is available if you need to force early consumption, or doseq if you don't actually need the output
17:40	dxlr8r	hmmm, the problem is that the body returns nil...
17:40	justin_smith	dxlr8r: then you get a list of nils
17:40	justin_smith	,(for [x (range 3)] nil)
17:41	clojurebot	(nil nil nil)
17:41	dxlr8r	it is very weird.... it works from the repl, but not from inside a function
17:41	dxlr8r	with for
17:41	justin_smith	but use doseq if you know it's nil, clearly you don't need that result. doseq is identical syntax wise to for for your purposes
17:41	ystael	dxlr8r: in the repl the result is forced to print it
17:41	justin_smith	dxlr8r: the repl forces evaluation because printing consumes the value
17:42	justin_smith	the only difference of for and doseq is doseq allows multiple body forms
17:42	justin_smith	(and returns nothing and is not lazy, of course)
17:42	dxlr8r	ahhh, ok. understood the lazy thing. was just confused when it worked from repl
17:57	dxlr8r	unrelated... sometimes I find myself wanting to use names such as range, list, etc. for my let bindings etc. is there some kinda defacto pre og suffix for this? know of a guy that foo'ed everything
17:57	justin_smith	dxlr8r: you can use those things as let bindings, as long as it is unambiguous
17:57	justin_smith	but it is an easy way to introduce future errors if you forgot you did it
17:58	dxlr8r	yeah, I know
17:58	justin_smith	eg. I used to do that with count, but got too many bugs, so I started using other names like size
17:58	dxlr8r	I tried finding new names, but all where taking :P
17:59	justin_smith	hehe
17:59	justin_smith	there's always putting a _ or ' on the end
17:59	dxlr8r	it where a range... so I though, yeah, call it array... taken too :/
17:59	dxlr8r	seq?
17:59	dxlr8r	etc :P
17:59	dxlr8r	never got a good name for it
17:59	justin_smith	lst is a classic
17:59	dxlr8r	ahhh
18:00	noncom\|2	dxlr8r: if i must use such a name, i usually either just use it and then go with fully-qualified ones, or just prepend "a" to them
18:00	justin_smith	as is coll
18:00	noncom\|2	for list, yeah, i often use lst and coll too
18:00	dxlr8r	yeah, used coll for other stuff
18:00	justin_smith	depending on your coworkers accents, you may get way with cnt for count, but probably best to avoid that one
18:00	dxlr8r	but there is no defacto? better to find a new name than suffix's etc?
18:01	dxlr8r	haha :P
18:01	justin_smith	l is also good for collections
18:01	dxlr8r	don't like single char bindings
18:01	dxlr8r	seldom use them
18:01	justin_smith	rst if it came off the end of something
18:01	dxlr8r	but as I said. any defacto standards?
18:01	justin_smith	x if it really doesn't matter what kind of thing it is you are just passing it along
18:02	dxlr8r	will remember rst, coll I already use, and lst :)
18:02	justin_smith	l and rst and x and coll are all standards
18:02	justin_smith	f
18:02	dxlr8r	use x for testing of code, but not in prod
18:02	justin_smith	(if callable)
18:02	Bronsa	f g and h for callables
18:02	justin_smith	right
18:02	Bronsa	even though i sometimes use f for first in destructuring
18:02	dxlr8r	I use this guide: https://github.com/bbatsov/clojure-style-guide#naming
18:03	Bronsa	(loop [[f & rs] coll] ..)
18:03	dxlr8r	put says nothing about pre or suffixing
18:03	dxlr8r	but
18:03	justin_smith	patchwork gets all creative sometimes, like using "skein" as a name for something gathered up from multiple sources
18:03	justin_smith	or jopotonio where the name really doesn't matter
18:03	patchwork	That is a perfectly reasonable variable name
18:03	justin_smith	:)
18:04	oddcully	i thought skein was beaten with a baseball bat?
18:05	dxlr8r	english is not my native tongue, but try to have english names. so I am not as good as you to find cool names :P
18:05	justin_smith	patchwork: oh wow, one of the synonyms for skein is "winning streak"
18:06	patchwork	Right, all of my variable names are synonyms for "winning streak"
18:06	justin_smith	also, skein relations are a concept in knot polynomials
18:07	justin_smith	haha
18:07	justin_smith	TIL there are knot polynomials
18:07	dxlr8r	cool, you people actuallt work with clojure. have NEVER ever seen a job ad with that in norway
18:07	patchwork	Yeah I knew that one. Math has already claimed all the great general collective nouns
18:07	dxlr8r	all .NET, Java and some PHP here
18:08	justin_smith	dxlr8r: we only got clojure jobs at first because patchwork snuck it into his workspace, then it flourished and I got hired
18:08	dxlr8r	nice :)
18:08	dxlr8r	from the US?
18:08	justin_smith	yeah
18:08	dxlr8r	nice
18:08	dxlr8r	I learned clojure because I wanted to something hard :P
18:09	dxlr8r	learn something new
18:10	oddcully	dxlr8r: haha, i always ridiculed lisp for the ((((((()))))))))... that is why i _try_ to learn clojure
18:10	dxlr8r	now everything sucks in comparison
18:10	justin_smith	dxlr8r: oh, another name (from the common lisp world) is e or el for an element in a collection
18:10	justin_smith	and acc for the argument that gets built up in a reduce
18:10	dxlr8r	hehe :P better with (((((())))))) that ({({})})
18:11	dxlr8r	I am actually noting this down justin_smith :P
18:13	dxlr8r	all other languages has so much boiler code. I think I'm more productive in say regular Java for a lot of stuff, but want to master clojure :)
18:14	justin_smith	it's a laudible goal
18:14	oddcully	dxlr8r: i think with a functional mindset and and some languages on your buckle you for sure would have no problems find a job in a "cool" it environment
18:15	dxlr8r	in norway? I beg to differ :P
18:15	dxlr8r	MS is still king here
18:16	oddcully	NS means somethin' else here ;P
18:16	justin_smith	F# is cool
18:16	oddcully	.*# never attracted me
18:17	dxlr8r	NS was the fascist party that couped the goverment. so yeah oddcully ... NS means stuff here to :P
18:17	dxlr8r	during WW2 :P
18:17	oddcully	hate me now: i come from a python/groovy landscape
18:17	justin_smith	oddcully: my fondness for .*ml overrides that for me :)
18:18	dxlr8r	easy to get clojure job i the US? :P
18:18	dxlr8r	could move
18:18	dxlr8r	not very good :P
18:18	oddcully	dxlr8r: we all saw dod sno
18:18	dxlr8r	ahhh :P
18:18	justin_smith	dunno about easy, but it's definitely been expanding
18:18	dxlr8r	actually haven't seen the oddcully
18:18	dxlr8r	that
18:20	oddcully	well then just me
18:20	oddcully	great cinema nontheless
18:20	dxlr8r	will probably watch it sometime :)
18:21	dxlr8r	norwegian films aren't so bad. used to be all crap
18:21	oddcully	but i hope in norway there is some culture around hiring "versatile" devs
18:21	oddcully	yesterday there was some talk about "how to get hired in a startup"
18:22	oddcully	i think i only know dod sno
18:22	dxlr8r	well, there might be some places I don't know of. but hard to get into. not even living in the capitol
18:22	oddcully	is festen from norway?
18:22	dxlr8r	festen?
18:22	oddcully	(pleASE don't hate my now!)
18:22	dxlr8r	festen who/what?
18:22	oddcully	ok, maybe not then
18:23	dxlr8r	festen means "the party"
18:23	ntaylor	some sort of demoscene thing?
18:25	oddcully	denmark/sweden... sorry
18:25	oddcully	since you translated it well, you norsemen seem to share quite some language
18:29	dxlr8r	yeah, we norwegians understand both swedish and danish
18:29	bensu	yeah festen means "the party" in swedish as well
18:29	dxlr8r	but danes and swedes aren't so good in understanding. atleast not danes... they speak english :P
18:29	dxlr8r	I can understand them, but they don't want to understand us :P
18:30	bensu	there is actually a small clojure community in Stockholm, I've been to a couple of meetups and they've been interesting
18:30	dxlr8r	most norwegians can fake swedish speech to
18:31	justin_smith	dxlr8r: so can muppets
18:31	dxlr8r	haha :P
18:31	ntaylor	yeah, Stockholm seems pretty good for JVM stuff in general (maybe owing to BEA being there,I donno)
18:31	oddcully	haha
18:31	oddcully	SMØREBRED!
18:31	oddcully	(spl!)
18:31	amalloy	reminds me of http://www.reddit.com/r/sweden/comments/301sqr/dodetot_%C3%A4ror_fof%C3%B6ror_lolitote/ - pig latin, for swedish
18:31	oddcully	that all my composekey could do
18:32	justin_smith	I'm sure swedish people get really tired of the swedish chef jokes
18:32	oddcully	i'm so sorry!
18:32	dxlr8r	norwegians doesn't get tired. but we dig all swede bashing :P
18:32	oddcully	it's the liquor speaking (like with mr. lahey)
18:32	dxlr8r	old bad blod :P
18:33	bensu	you never hear those here :) I've actually met a BEA programmer at an Erlang meetup
18:33	dxlr8r	we have swede jokes
18:33	dxlr8r	do you know why swedes always have an empty bottle in their fridge?
18:33	bensu	poor guy, everybody gave him tons of shit because, you know... java
18:34	dxlr8r	in case someone who isn't thirsty comes by
18:34	oddcully	:*)
18:35	dxlr8r	we have like hundres of them :P
18:35	oddcully	here it is: austria vs bavaria
18:36	bensu	oddcully: are you austrian?
18:36	oddcully	bensu: NO!
18:37	gfredericks	wait hold on this is not the time of day for europeans to be about
18:37	dxlr8r	easter :P
18:37	oddcully	gfredericks: your last name suggests otherwise
18:37	gfredericks	europe talk is first thing when I get up in the morning
18:37	justin_smith	And here we have the haskeller / rubyist jokes. There will always be jokes about the folks on the other side of the river.
18:37	justin_smith	haha
18:37	justin_smith	(inc gfredericks)
18:37	lazybot	⇒ 131
18:38	bensu	gfredericks: I move to Sweden so my mum wouldn't bother me with bed time!
18:38	dxlr8r	in scandinavia we have the easter of
18:38	dxlr8r	no work :P
18:38	dxlr8r	off
18:38	oddcully	bavaria^Wgermany too
18:38	gfredericks	oddcully: my ancestors came to staten island on the mayflower while fighting the british
18:39	oddcully	gfredericks: your lastname suggested that to me even by obfuscating it
18:39	bensu	justin_smith: ruby jokes are pretty hilarious now matter in which side of the river you are
18:39	gfredericks	I think fredericks is wswedish
18:39	dxlr8r	what better way to spend easter than programming clojure?
18:39	bensu	(even when you like ruby)
18:39	dxlr8r	hehe :P
18:39	justin_smith	bensu: and mongodb jokes
18:40	bensu	justin_smith: god yes. those webscale mongo db videos are hilarious
18:40	justin_smith	but those are there because laughing is better than tears of rage and pain.
18:40	oddcully	gfredericks: i worked with a swede (fredrikson - son of fredrik -- but could as well we friedrich (german))
18:40	gfredericks	there's a 1/8 probability it's danish
18:41	bensu	justin_smith: the guy that makes them is in the Erlang community, we better not upset him...
18:42	bensu	justin_smith: the one thing I envy from the Mongo/Meteor community is that server real time sync
18:43	justin_smith	bensu: can't you duplicate that by any db with (future (sync-eventually db)) because mongo isn't actually verifying any sync happened
18:43	Que	Is clojure a good choice for a first programming language? I plan to do some web development later on since I only know html and css
18:43	justin_smith	bensu: I could be missing a nuance here
18:44	justin_smith	Que: if you find it difficult, racket is somewhat more streamlined, but similar enough so that you could come back to clojure later
18:44	justin_smith	(with little difficulty)
18:44	justin_smith	Que: of course since this is a clojure lovers channel, I will tell you it's the best :)
18:44	turbofail	racket also comes with a relatively friendly IDE to get started with
18:44	Que	:))
18:45	oddcully	you can configure mongo by request now you want your data realized
18:45	justin_smith	yeah, racket is optimized for first time programmers when you use the IDE
18:45	bensu	it's not about the database being fast to respond, but about making it feel in the client that you are working directly with the db and pushing fresh data to the client constantly
18:45	dxlr8r	Que: clojure will be harder to learn if you first learn php, Java etc. so if your goal is the master clojure, don't make your brain think in objects
18:46	dxlr8r	can be hard to unlearn
18:46	justin_smith	bensu: ahh, so the low latency of getting updates?
18:46	dxlr8r	or not unlearn, but adapt :)
18:46	bensu	justin_smith: and the pub/sub mechanism across all clients
18:47	justin_smith	bensu: aha, so it's like a db and a distributed messaging system in one
18:47	Que	I only followed some python/ruby/ js tutorials so since I have no programming background I was unsure to pick a language so "esoteric" as clojure
18:47	bensu	yeah! mongo offers the db and meteor builds the sync layer on top using websockets
18:47	justin_smith	bensu: have you looked at zookeeper? I've had good experiences and have heard nothing but good things about it. It does coordination of data with low latency and good throughput.
18:47	bensu	it works great out of the box but it's extremely complected!
18:48	justin_smith	bensu: but zookeeper explicitly is not a db
18:48	herrwolfe	Que: python is nice as well. But scheme is great to learn multi paradigm
18:49	dxlr8r	Que: depends on waht you want. if you have programming as a hobby I would recommend clojure. but it you plan on getting a job fast I would instead learn a more used language... JavaScript IS the most important language atm
18:49	bensu	justin_smith: yeah, I've looked about it and it could be a component. I'm actually trying to figure out the abstractions/protocols to offer the client and server
18:49	Que	And I can only find learning resources geared to experienced programmers so that's why I am here :-D
18:49	justin_smith	bensu: avout is cool as long as you don't use the watch feature - it provides a view of zookeeper that is much like atoms or refs
18:50	oddcully	dxlr8r: moving up norse was an option... until you mentioned JS... ;P
18:50	bensu	but it's very late here in Sweden to have good ideas, so I'll be going
18:50	bensu	justin_smith: I'll look at avout, thanks!
18:50	bensu	hejdå!
18:51	justin_smith	Que: clojure from the ground up and clojure for the brave and true are both pretty accessible to newcomers http://www.braveclojure.com/ https://aphyr.com/tags/Clojure-from-the-ground-up
18:51	dxlr8r	heidå
18:51	dxlr8r	:P
18:51	Que	dxlr8r: but javascript is so ugly and very things I don't understand and don't make sense to me
18:51	oddcully	bensu: slàinte
18:51	dxlr8r	Que: agree :) but still the most important language atm
18:51	justin_smith	Que: yeah, clojure is simpler in many ways (until you get to the dusty corners - every language has those)
18:52	oddcully	guess, i got that tick on the a wrong
18:52	Que	justin_smith: Thanks for the links
18:53	turbofail	justin_smith: are they really accessible to programming newcomers? most of us haven't been one of those for a long time...
18:54	justin_smith	Que: also, this channel and #clojure-beginners are open to even the most introductory of clojure questions - as long as there is at least some evidence you are putting some effort in
18:54	turbofail	so i don't know how good a judge of that we are
18:54	Que	But if I learn clojure would it be to learn other languages like javascript or python?
18:54	justin_smith	turbofail: clojure from the ground up is explicitly for an audience that has never programmed before
18:54	oddcully	braveclojure is basically the first site i read about clojure... it is really funny
18:54	dxlr8r	Que: clojure is not a good start if you want to learn JavaScript or Python
18:55	justin_smith	turbofail: the main complaints I have heard about it is that it goes to slow, and it's too basic
18:55	dxlr8r	Python is a good start for that
18:55	turbofail	justin_smith: i dunno. i tried teaching a friend basic programming stuff in a similar fashion to how clojure from the ground up approaches things, and it was a total disaster
18:55	turbofail	that said that may have just been my friend being super impatient
18:56	justin_smith	statistically most people that try to learn to program, just don't find a way to make it work, no matter the approach you take
18:56	justin_smith	even if they want to
18:56	justin_smith	turbofail: the real difference I think is stubbornness / obsessiveness - this is beyond "patience" territory I think :)
18:57	dxlr8r	I found the immutable nature hardest. and thinking about loops in a different way was hard to. like use reduce, etc. instead of complex loops
18:57	Que	dxlr8r: thank you for the sincere advice
18:57	justin_smith	if your first language is a functional one, immutable just makes sense, it's like math
18:58	dxlr8r	yeah... agree
18:58	oddcully	also in pure practicality terms you will have an easier time as an sh*tty JS developer
18:58	oddcully	no one will notice
18:58	justin_smith	haha
18:58	dxlr8r	that's why I said it's harder to learn clojure if you are into the Java/Python/JS world
18:58	dxlr8r	oddcully: haha
18:59	dxlr8r	I still use loops for stuff that reduce etc. could do. and I make A LOT of let's :P
18:59	oddcully	everything will be attacked with a `for` loop then
18:59	turbofail	also, "just like math" and "just makes sense" don't always go that well together
18:59	justin_smith	haha
19:00	justin_smith	turbofail: I think the most confusing and problematic thing in the entire programming world is "i = i+1;"
19:00	dxlr8r	let, a noobs best weapon against (((()))) :)
19:00	Que	but if you have a virgin brain like me it would be a good choice? Am I understanding it right?
19:00	justin_smith	Que: I think so. But clearly there is some diversity of opinion.
19:00	dxlr8r	Que: yeah. but don't expect to get anywhere soon if you plan on getting a job
19:00	dxlr8r	or get a head start for university
19:01	turbofail	justin_smith: i dunno. that never confused me as a kid, it only started seeming odd to me after i started thinking about things in more depth
19:01	Que	It's more like a hobby to be honest
19:01	oddcully	Que: quite honest, from my perspective -- as a clojure learner meself -- i can't tell. the basics are sound and safe and the things you take away are really for life. if you want to find a job in the biz... depends
19:02	justin_smith	Que: yeah, for hobby, I'd say definitely choose one of clojure, racket, haskell, ocaml
19:02	dxlr8r	Que: I still consider myself a noob, and I am better with other languages. but I have fallen in love with the language. it's more powerful, more consistent etc.
19:03	dxlr8r	I have also learned clojure as a hobby/use for my own projects
19:03	ntaylor	my two cents: any language you choose is, language-feature wise, the right language to learn from if it makes you motivated to keep going forward with programming
19:03	justin_smith	'strooth
19:03	justin_smith	(inc ntaylor)
19:03	lazybot	⇒ 1
19:04	ntaylor	I think a lot of people (myself included) got hung up on Is This Language The Best One rather than experimenting and learning ;)
19:04	dxlr8r	:)
19:04	justin_smith	probably the most important language to me in my learning was csound -- because I could use it for cool stuff that I wanted to do
19:04	justin_smith	btw. it is a terrible language, syntax and feature wise
19:04	justin_smith	but it makes it super easy to make synthesizers :)
19:05	ntaylor	hah
19:05	dxlr8r	clojure can be more a hassle to setup than say a LAMP. my command line skills and long hours with Linux did come in handy
19:05	Que	Immediate satisfaction is a very strong argument.....
19:05	dxlr8r	and ofcourse finding an editor for humans is hard
19:05	dxlr8r	most clojurans use emacs
19:05	oddcully	my entry point was graphics
19:05	ntaylor	I think someone already mentioned Racket above, but that's a huge benefit of the PLT-Scheme stuff
19:06	justin_smith	yup
19:06	oddcully	so getting results for your eye or ear seems crucial
19:06	ntaylor	you just install the thing and It Works
19:06	turbofail	yeah the racket IDE is pretty awesome
19:06	ntaylor	yeah same
19:06	ntaylor	I TAed the How To Design Programs curriculum in grad school and it was (surprisingly nobody) so much better than the former OO curriculum
19:06	Que	gotta search for racket then
19:07	dxlr8r	if you are not gonna mess to much with lein etc. Counterclockwise is a good clojure IDE Que. would start there unless you already know emacs
19:07	ntaylor	if only because you had the REPL right-away and got immediate feedback
19:08	n8dawg	Question on core.async, I have a producer and consumer talking over a channel, no buffer, lets say producer looks something like this: (go (>! chan (foo)))
19:09	n8dawg	question is, is (foo) called when consumer reads from chan or when go block is called?
19:10	justin_smith	n8dawg: I would expect when the go block is called. But honestly I don't know.
19:11	postpunkjustin	if there's no buffer then I would definitely expect it to be when the go block is called
19:11	justin_smith	justin tag-team action
19:11	postpunkjustin	two out of n Justins agree
19:12	oddjustin	i don't
19:12	oddcully	or maybe i am
19:15	Que	so should I go with the racket's official tutorial or pick something else?
19:16	dxlr8r	hardly heard of it. sorry :/
19:16	justin_smith	the official tutorial should be good
19:16	ntaylor	Que: remind me, is your background a new programmer?
19:17	Que	ntaylor: Only did a couple of tutorials on ruby/python js
19:17	ntaylor	if so, I might recommend the intro textbook How To Design Programs, which is intended for new CS uni students but should be good for self-study too http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/HtDP2e/
19:18	ntaylor	imho it is a fantastic intro to both programming and thinking in the functiona programming style
19:18	ntaylor	the official racket docs are written by at least a few of the same authors, though, so you may get a good experience going through those as well
19:19	Que	ntaylor: thank you I will explore both and see what fits me.
19:19	oddcully	(inc ntaylor)
19:19	lazybot	⇒ 2
19:20	ntaylor	yw!
19:20	Que	ntaylor: So am I right to assume that the link is for learning to program using racket language? or is it clojure/something else?
19:20	ntaylor	Que: sorry, no, the link is for a textbook that uses Racket
19:21	ntaylor	but, being both Lisp-likes, they're philosophically similar to one another
19:21	dxlr8r	skimming the textbook, and I agree. a lot like clojure
19:23	Que	Thank you very much. You guys were most helpful. Really appreciated :)
19:23	Que	(inc ntaylor)
19:23	dxlr8r	good luck :)
19:23	lazybot	⇒ 3
19:23	Que	dxlr8r: thanks :)
19:24	ntaylor	yw!
19:24	dxlr8r	btw guys. you know of some clojure/java library that handles processes? I use a library named "clj-pid" for getting the pid of the running process, but would like to list all it's "children"... like "pgrep -P"
19:25	dxlr8r	atm I use sh with pgrep etc. and it works great, but wondered if there where a lib
19:25	dxlr8r	my program will be reliant of pgrep, which I don't like
19:27	oddcully	mine on instaparse, which i totally like
19:28	oddcully	and yet you are better off than the ps aux \| grep folks!
19:30	dxlr8r	https://github.com/lewang/instaparse ? how is that gonna help med oddcully ?
19:31	dxlr8r	me
19:35	ntaylor	dxlr8r: I bet you wouldn't have too much trouble rolling your own that does a `Runtime.getRuntime().exec("ps aux")` and then have you filter
19:35	ntaylor	the difficulty with the JVM being cross platform is that exposing system level stuff like this is rare :(
19:36	ntaylor	I thought there might be a built-in mxbean for this, but not as far as I can see http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/lang/management/OperatingSystemMXBean.html
19:36	dxlr8r	I use "clojure.java.shell"... and pgrep is much better than ps
19:36	dxlr8r	for that task
19:37	ntaylor	right, I meant to say pgrep rather than ps
19:37	ntaylor	whatever thing you want executed on the shell :)
19:37	ntaylor	if you were feeling really ambitious, you could write your own linux/OSX specific MXBean and write clojure bindings for it :)
19:38	dxlr8r	:) I have a nice way now, it's very clean. but not portable. works on pgrep for bsd, gnu and busybox
19:38	dxlr8r	but would not work in say, windows
19:38	ntaylor	yeah, a truly portable way is gonna require some effort
19:38	ntaylor	yeah exactly
19:38	dxlr8r	(sh "pgrep" "-P" (pid/current))
19:38	dxlr8r	really easy
19:39	dxlr8r	then just do a split of the output and have nice list
19:39	ntaylor	i've never had cause to shell out in clojure, that is nice
19:39	dxlr8r	trying to master clojure, so use it for shell scripting
19:39	dxlr8r	could do it in perl/bash whatever
19:39	dxlr8r	but I already know those :P
19:40	ntaylor	nothing beats perl
19:40	dxlr8r	or... who really knows bash? I never get that right. I have to lookup everything... messy "language"
19:40	netroby	Morning (From GMT+8)
19:40	pmonks	For invoking other apps I've found conch (https://github.com/Raynes/conch) pretty nice. Doesn't solve the portability problem, mind you...
19:41	dxlr8r	hehe, perl is nice. I am not experienced enough to say that perl is the best :) it works
19:41	ntaylor	perl was actually my first FP language
19:41	dxlr8r	yeah, tried to use conch. but it didn't give me anything I needed
19:41	ntaylor	(and one of my favourite things to do is to make the Haskell crowd mad at me by saying the best book I've ever read about functional programming is Higher Order Perl)
19:41	dxlr8r	so went back to regular sh
19:42	dxlr8r	my first language was TI-83 Basic
19:42	dxlr8r	then PHP
19:43	postpunkjustin	that's quite a step down
19:44	Seylerius	Hah.
19:44	dxlr8r	would be cool to write my own clojure vbinding and post it github. would look nice on my resume
19:44	dxlr8r	hehe
19:44	justin_smith	dxlr8r: under linux, I'd use the /proc files to get what you might want
19:46	dxlr8r	justin_smith: yeah, I use OS X, and the script is gonna be deployed on linux/os x/bsd machines, so pgrep looks better in that case
19:47	dxlr8r	https://github.com/facebook/osquery could work to :P
19:47	dxlr8r	but wanted something easy
19:47	dxlr8r	but that project is so nice :)
19:48	Seylerius	dxlr8r: What in the world is a vbinding?
19:49	dxlr8r	Seylerius: meant binding
19:49	dxlr8r	typing to fast for my own good
19:49	Seylerius	Ah.
19:50	Seylerius	So a clojure binding for... the abomin—cough I mean PHP? Or for something else?
19:50	dxlr8r	I thought about OperatingSystemMXBean
19:50	dxlr8r	I don't need it, but could be a cool project
19:51	dxlr8r	haha :P PHP is like 12 years ago
19:51	dxlr8r	hardly touched it since
19:51	Seylerius	Good.
19:51	ntaylor	yeah, if you know how to get the process lists from the Win32 API, you can do platform-specific stuff in the bean and expose a uniform interface into managed code
19:52	dxlr8r	yeah, thinking about it ntaylor . as I said, would look good on a resume, and also give some cred
19:52	ntaylor	I guess the good news there is that you would need to maintain Windows and "everything else", so only two distinct code paths
19:52	ntaylor	yeah
19:53	dxlr8r	I have heard that having a github account with good projects is a good move. I am 30 and without a "real" job
19:53	dxlr8r	so time is running out :P
19:53	ntaylor	ha ha ha
19:53	dxlr8r	is 30 old? :P
19:53	pmonks	oh sweet babby child
19:54	pmonks	you got no idea what's coming
19:54	pmonks	;-)
19:54	ntaylor	EVERYTHING BREAKS
19:54	pmonks	(inc ntaylor)
19:54	ntaylor	that is my "getting old" experience so far
19:54	lazybot	⇒ 4
19:54	pmonks	Then you forget you break easily (cause your memory is broke too) and really get into trouble. :-(
19:54	dxlr8r	I have some idea :P I have to exercise more than I used to or else every bone hurts :P
19:55	ntaylor	self-preservation is for the young peopel anyway
19:56	pmonks	That's why I drink - to try to preserve myself.
19:56	pmonks	That and it's cheaper per ounce than anti-inflammatories.
19:56	dxlr8r	don't drink or smoke. workout about 3 times each week
19:57	dxlr8r	sometimes more
19:58	pmonks	Wait until you stop healing from injuries - that sucks. :-(
19:58	pmonks	I used to be able to take a week break, R.I.C.E. and I'd be fine. Now I have injuries that just won't heal properly.
19:59	pmonks	And old ones randomly resurfacing.
19:59	pmonks	suxx
19:59	dxlr8r	I go regulary to acupunctur for my arms
19:59	dxlr8r	or else I can't use a mouse or keyboard :/
19:59	dxlr8r	had it for over 10 years
20:00	pmonks	What's your sport of choice, if you don't mind me asking?
20:00	dxlr8r	but actually recovering
20:00	dxlr8r	I used to be really good in triple jump
20:00	dxlr8r	now it's just hobby
20:00	pmonks	wow
20:00	pmonks	That looks way hard on the legs!
20:00	dxlr8r	not that hard actually
20:01	dxlr8r	never had any mayor injuries because if it
20:01	dxlr8r	you get more injures doing nothing than doing something... atleast in the long run :)
20:01	pmonks	+1
20:02	Seylerius	(inc dxlr8r)
20:02	lazybot	⇒ 1
20:02	Seylerius	(inc pmonks)
20:02	lazybot	⇒ 3
20:03	Seylerius	(inc ntaylor)
20:03	lazybot	⇒ 5
20:05	dxlr8r	thx :)
20:20	justin_smith	dxlr8r: I got my first real programming job at 35
20:21	justin_smith	after over a decade of hobby programming
20:24	dxlr8r	nice to hear. I have been really close getting a real job. I am kinda like a poteto, I do all kinds of stuff. really good with OS X and Server.app etc. also good with Linux and network in general
20:25	dxlr8r	then I also do some programming, but never profesionally. only small projects
20:34	justin_smith	poteto?
20:35	patchwork	How large is the thread pool for futures? And where do I set it?
20:37	justin_smith	patchwork: I'm on mobile, but it is thee agent thrad pool
20:38	justin_smith	same one shutdown-agents shuts down
20:39	justin_smith	maybe see you in 20 minites?
20:40	patchwork	justin_smith: Ah yes, you heading to the clojure meetup?
20:40	patchwork	at puppet?
20:40	patchwork	I will be there
20:41	justin_smith	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11316737/managing-agent-thread-pools-in-clojure
20:41	justin_smith	built in pool, unlimited size
20:42	patchwork	Really weird, I am making 1000's of concurrent requests to http-kit, but it only ever accepts 400 at a time
20:42	patchwork	Exactly 400
20:42	patchwork	every time
20:43	patchwork	It seems too convenient
20:43	amalloy	patchwork: perhaps you're running out of OS file handles, for example
20:43	amalloy	though 400 seems a bit low for that
20:45	justin_smith	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Agent.java
20:45	patchwork	Yeah I hope my OS can handle more than 400 files at a time : P
20:45	amalloy	well the default on most unix machines is 1024 files per process
20:46	patchwork	It could be something like that then...
20:46	justin_smith	also, thread limits per process
20:46	dxlr8r	justin_smith: potato :)
20:47	justin_smith	so what does it mean to say you are a potato?
20:48	patchwork	justin_smith: Any idea what the thread limits per process are?
20:48	johnmendonca	versatility of a potato
20:49	dxlr8r	justin_smith: thought that was an english term to. in norwegian it means you can be used for everything
20:49	dxlr8r	versatile :)
20:52	justin_smith	in english potato means mentally challengef (like downs syndrome) or very weak tech (like a cheap camera). i assumed you meant something different
20:53	dxlr8r	hehe :P won't use that term again in english :P