#clojure – 2015-02-15

2015-02-15

00:23	yogthos	robindunbarr: Luminus is meant to be a light weight batteries included micro-framework like Flask
00:29	robindunbarr	yogthos: I see, thanks.
00:41	devll	Hi,Is there a way to get string value of the stacktrace of a Exception?
00:41	devll	Obviously,I can write one .
00:42	devll	I guess I just should do it.
01:08	justin_smith	,(apply str (.getStackTrace (Exception. "oops")))
01:08	clojurebot	"sandbox$eval25.invoke(NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)clojure.lang.Compiler.eval(Compiler.java:6768)clojure.lang.Compiler.eval(Compiler.java:6731)clojure.core$eval.invoke(core.clj:3076)clojure.core$eval3$fn__4$fn__14.invoke(NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)clojure.core$eval3$fn__4.invoke(NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)clojure.core$eval3.invoke(NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)clojure.lang.Compiler.eval(Compiler.java:6768)clojure.lang.Compiler.eval(Compiler...
01:09	devll	justin_smith: thanks
01:37	vas	anybody do passwordless logins for their app?
01:49	vas	ping
01:52	justin_smith	vas: no, how would that work?
01:59	vas	justin_smith: been contemplating various approaches, but i think the one i want to use is essentially asking the user just for their email, then sending them a link that they click
01:59	vas	so the only password they need is their email password, not truly "passwordless" but no passwords kept on my end
02:00	vas	( and the link is their authentication for the session )
02:00	justin_smith	ahh, right - instead you have a mapping of an account (and account data) to a token validated via email?
02:01	vas	precisely so
02:01	vas	or text message, i might use phone numbers eventually
04:34	kaplan	Hi, can anyone tell me what's wrong with this code? https://www.refheap.com/97252
04:36	AimHere	,(reverse "acca")
04:36	clojurebot	(\a \c \c \a)
04:36	wminor	kaplan: I think you're using the wrong reverse, you need clojure.string/reverse
04:36	kaplan	ah
04:37	AimHere	The 'if' is redundant too
04:37	AimHere	(if X true false) can be easily reduced to (X)
04:38	kaplan	ah, thanks
04:38	kaplan	wminor, that worked
04:38	AimHere	(if (if X true false) true false)
04:41	kaplan	wminor, is there any way to shorten the clojure.string part?
04:41	TEttinger	,(require [clojure.string :as s])
04:42	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.string, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
04:42	AimHere	You can give it an alias in the require'
04:42	TEttinger	,(require '[clojure.string :as s])
04:42	clojurebot	nil
04:42	TEttinger	,(s/reverse "blah")
04:42	clojurebot	"halb"
04:43	TEttinger	kaplan: typically require goes in the ns form, where it looks like (ns mynamespace (:require [clojure.string :as s]))
04:43	TEttinger	note the colon and the no need for a quote
04:44	TEttinger	in the repl, or in the middle of a clojure source file, you can use (require '[whatever]) and need the quote but can't have the colon before require
04:45	wminor	I'm writing an HTTP client for something, and I have a bunch of functions that work in the success case, returning maps representing the json data in the body of the responses. However, I'm having a tough time deciding how to handle errors. What's the idiomatic way to handle failure of the HTTP request in the way that a caller can be informed of the reason for failure?
04:46	TEttinger	there's also (use) but it is frowned upon, especially for clojure.string. use overwrites any functions or vars that are currently defined with the ones in the ns it uses, so you don't need the s/reverse and can just do reverse. BUT you just overwrote clojure.core/reverse
04:46	kaplan	TEttinger, ah, thanks
04:47	TEttinger	wminor, that's a really good question, and I am not qualified at all to answer
04:48	wminor	Sadly, searches for error handling in clojure bring up a really mixed bag, and I've not seen an approach that sticks out as being either particularly nice, or "the clojure way"
04:51	ggherdov	Hello. I'm trying to understand commute vs alter. My book (progr. cloj., oreilly) says about commute that "the commute-d function will be applied again at commit time with the latest value for the commute-d ref".
04:51	ggherdov	I don't understand. Wouldn't this second application of the function need to be in a transaction as well? I mean: the second application of the function may take some time; at the point you have the result, the original ref value might have changed -again-...
04:53	ddellacosta	wminor: if you are just talking about HTTP error responses, seems like that could/should be handled simply by passing the error response back to the client, and handling it as is appropriate there, no? If you are talking about general error handling in the Clojure ecosystem, I'd have to agree with you there
04:54	wminor	ddellacosta: sure, I could just bubble up errors to the caller, but it feels like there should be a better way
04:54	ddellacosta	wminor: you may also want to take a look at liberator, may or may not answer some of your questions: http://clojure-liberator.github.io/liberator/
04:55	wminor	will take a peek, thanks
04:56	ddellacosta	wminor: again, I'm a bit confused about what you are talking about--if you are talking about HTTP responses then I think that should be app-specific. If you are talking about errors/exceptions on the app level that have to be handled in some app-specific way, then that is definitely not something I've seen codified in any way in the Clojure world
04:57	ddellacosta	wminor: for example, are you talking about, say, the user passing invalid data to an HTTP route, or the database blowing up because it's out of connections (for example)?
05:06	faveteli_	what am i missing in this simple infix macro? http://lpaste.net/120533
05:08	kaplan	TEttinger, https://www.refheap.com/97253 LightTable instarepl gives me EOF on line 7
05:08	faveteli_	i found the problem need to unquote :)
05:08	TEttinger	need another paren just before line 7, kaplan
05:09	TEttinger	need to end palindrome? fn
05:09	kaplan	TEttinger, ah, damn parens
05:10	TEttinger	heh
05:10	TEttinger	it will get easier!
05:10	TEttinger	also lighttable supports rainbow parens
05:10	TEttinger	which are so nice, in my view, not everyone likes em
05:11	kaplan	TEttinger, I thought I should make my brain used to parens without any aid first
05:11	TEttinger	yeah, I think you will get used to them though, it doesn't take that long
05:13	wminor	ddellacosta: the former I suppose. I think for now I'm happy for the client to explode in exceptional circumstances
05:14	ddellacosta	wminor: in that case, another thing you could take a look at is Prismatic's fnhouse (https://github.com/Prismatic/fnhouse)--we use something different ourselves, but it's worth seeing how much this solves your problem or misses the mark
05:15	ddellacosta	wminor: but in general I like the direction the Prismatic folks are going in with most of their libraries
05:16	wminor	ddellacosta: thanks. At this point I'm still very new to clojure, so just happy to find find decent code to read so that I can soak up ideas. I don't yet know enough to evaluate third party code easily
05:17	ddellacosta	wminor: gotcha. Yeah, in general I'd recommend checking out their stuff, I think their libraries represent some of the higher quality and more thoughtfully practical stuff available now in Clojure
05:50	Integralist	Hello, I'm having an issue with a namespace when the app is compiled and/or at runtime: http://goo.gl/At2Jbp -> I've just to use ns-resolve to work around the issue but am still having no luck.
05:54	nicferrier	so I've got two webservers in a single process... they use a lot of core.async... how should I wait on the core.async operations? with a while loop with a thread/sleep?
05:59	muhuk	nicferrier: you mean wait and block everything else?
05:59	nicferrier	muhuk: I mean the go blocks are all async... so if I set them up and do nothing else the program will just quit, no? so I have to wait for them somehow.
05:59	nicferrier	or do I? maybe the main will just hang?
06:00	muhuk	nicferrier: I see what you mean.
06:00	nicferrier	I want to get this right. this is a piece of infrastructure.
06:00	muhuk	I usually set up something like a promise and wait on that
06:00	muhuk	then you can deliver that promise anywhere else and you should be able to exit that way.
06:00	nicferrier	ah. not a bad idea.
06:00	nicferrier	I could have a signal to the go block to fulfil the promise.
06:18	ggherdov	Can anybody clarify this statement: "The function you give to `commute` will be run at least twice: once to compute the in-transaction value, and again to compute the commit value". It's from "the joy of clojure".
06:18	ggherdov	My question is: why do you bother computing the in-transaction value, if then you're going to do it all over again at commit time?
06:43	muhuk	ggherdov: have you seen the example here https://clojuredocs.org/clojure.core/commute
06:48	ggherdov	@muhuk no I haven't, thanks. Reading.
07:54	nicferrier	doesn't waiting on a promise block the thread? it does right? I'm getting some wierd error about many2many-channels and futures being confused.
07:55	nicferrier	aha. it's not that. I'm confusing a thread and a promise.
07:55	nicferrier	how do I exchange a promise between two threads?
07:56	nicferrier	I want the promise to be delivered in another thread.
07:56	nicferrier	can I return the promise from a thread?
08:34	nicferrier	gah. now I am stuck trying to end my threads.
08:34	nicferrier	:-(
08:34	nicferrier	clojure is great but concurrency is hard.
08:34	muhuk	concurrency is hard, period.
08:34	muhuk	why do you need to exchange the promise between threads
08:35	nicferrier	I solved that.
08:35	nicferrier	:-)
08:35	muhuk	ok, cool
08:37	nicferrier	I've got a few threads which are sockets and clients... and now they don't end.
08:37	nicferrier	sort of trying to make this usable.
08:38	AeroNotix	nicferrier: stop trying to use 12 different concurrency primitives in the same program.
08:38	nicferrier	but I need them.
08:38	AeroNotix	You think you need them :)
08:38	nicferrier	you think I don't know but you don't know what I'm doing.
08:39	AeroNotix	I know you think you know what you're doing. You always seem to try to mention your many-years experience whenever you're learning something on IRC.
08:39	nicferrier	because I'm not seeking a mentor.
08:39	AeroNotix	But really, there is probably an easier way than using threads, promises and core.async all at the same time.
08:40	AeroNotix	I say "probably" because there might be a genuine need.
08:40	nicferrier	yeah.
08:40	AeroNotix	haha!
08:40	AeroNotix	go for it dude, knock yourself out.
08:40	nicferrier	you want to know what I'm doing?
08:40	AeroNotix	Nope.
08:40	nicferrier	you're friendly.
08:41	AeroNotix	I am, really.
08:41	nicferrier	not really.
08:41	AeroNotix	but it's clear you don't want help.
08:41	nicferrier	that's right. I'm just chatting.
08:41	nicferrier	chatting helps.
08:41	vas_	hehehe a gem of a back-n-forth
08:41	nicferrier	I use irc for rubber ducking.
08:46	nicferrier	just so you know - that's not friendly and it pisses me off.
08:46	nicferrier	makes me feel unwelcome.
08:46	nicferrier	hope you don't do it a lot.
08:46	AeroNotix	nicferrier: thing is, you are exactly like that yourself.
08:46	AeroNotix	#emacs is tyranny when you're active.
08:47	nicferrier	that's not true.
08:47	AeroNotix	Ah! So I'm mistaken.
08:47	AeroNotix	oh wait.
08:50	muhuk	Just because someone is rude (or whatever) in another channel doesn't mean we should make belittling comments about them in #clojure.
08:51	AeroNotix	It wasn't belittling. nicferrier made it clear they're just here to complain, not ask for help. Even when nudged in the direction that they might be doing something wrong, the first assertion is that they need to do it like that.
08:51	AeroNotix	Which is funny, because the previous conversation makes it clear that nicferrier is confused about several primitives.
08:51	nicferrier	AeroNotix: no, but you can't throw bricks at someone without hearing what they're trying to do.
08:51	nicferrier	and I don't think I'm confused.
08:52	AeroNotix	Gotcha.
08:52	muhuk	Implying that he doesn't know what he's doing is belittling.
08:52	nicferrier	and so is passive aggresive behaviour.
08:52	AeroNotix	I implied there might be a better way to do it.
08:52	Bronsa	please, take this somewhere else and don't pollute #clojure with personal issues.
08:52	AeroNotix	Bronsa: agreed. It's gone too far now.
08:57	vas_	hi :) i want to timestamp stuff
08:57	AeroNotix	vas_: what do you mean?
08:57	AeroNotix	like generate timestamps?
08:57	vas_	just like unix standard count for tokens i put in a db
08:57	vas_	to check that they're <33min fresh
08:58	AeroNotix	vas_: you can get the unix timestamp by doing (quot (System/currentTimeMillis) 1000)
08:58	AeroNotix	and then it's simple maths to do the comparison
08:58	vas_	Wow that's awesome. Thanks for the swift answer AeroNotix
08:58	AeroNotix	np
09:00	AeroNotix	what's the best guide to getting started with ClojureScript? I know there were a lot of tooling changes recently and I haven't kept up.
09:14	vas_	AeroNotix: works like a charm, thank you kindly ^_^
09:14	AeroNotix	no worries
09:37	cityspirit	in the enqueue macro here http://www.braveclojure.com/concurrency/#4_5__Simple_Queueing, why doesn't (deref ~q) block the main thread, prohibiting further calls to enqueue itself?
09:38	cityspirit	actually, i guess I would rather think the call to ~serialized would be blocking the main thread
09:42	vas_	because "Dereferencing a future will block if the future hasn't finished running" ?
09:47	cityspirit	how does the call to enqueue return a promise to the next call to enqueue without first being block by ~serialized, which is dereferencing a promise
10:05	nonrecursive	cityspirit: this might help https://gist.github.com/flyingmachine/ba9ae6e500896b1d2c78
10:06	nonrecursive	that’s not 100% exactly what happens but it should show that all the futures get created before any of the futures get dereferences
10:06	nonrecursive	dereferenced*
10:10	mavbozo	nonrecursive: so, if the future is not yet finished, (deref ~q) will block the main thread
10:11	nonrecursive	cityspirit: sometimes it does get blocked but that’s actually ok
10:15	nonrecursive	mavbozo: cityspirit: yeah, but that’s ok. Maybe a dumb metaphor will help? Let’s say some unpleasant person has lined up three balls on a table. he wants each ball to get thrown into the air, caught, and then handed to him in the order that they’re lined up. You could go down, one by one, tossing each ball and handing it to this person. Or you could get two of your friends to toss the balls at the same time as you, and you
10:15	nonrecursive	hand in each ball, in order, as soon as it’s done being tossed
10:16	nonrecursive	in the first case, let’s say the balls take 1 second, 3 seconds, and 2 seconds. It’ll take you a total of 6 seconds
10:16	nonrecursive	in the second case, you can hand in ball one after 1 second, then you have to wait 2 more seconds to hand in ball 2. but you can hand in ball 3 immediately
10:17	justin_smith	$mail nicferrier what you want is shutdown-agents when your app is ready to shut down, clojure's main thread will not end until the agent-pools are nicely put to bed
10:17	lazybot	Message saved.
10:17	nonrecursive	enqueue is acting like the second case - the thread does sometimes have to wait, but the task as a whole will only take as long as the longest sub-task
10:18	nonrecursive	mavbozy: cityspirit: does that help at all?
10:19	cityspirit	nonrecursive: thanks, for the example and description. the description makes sense, I'm still looking at example. I guess my problem comes with understanding how the macro behaves differently than , e.g. https://www.refheap.com/97267 By the way, I really enjoy your writing style
10:19	mavbozo	nonrecursive: that helps. thx.
10:23	nonrecursive	cityspirit: in that example you deref the first promise before creating the second promise and future. with enqueue, you create all promises and futures before any of the promises actually get dereferenced
10:25	favetelinguis	is the clojure cheat sheet a complete discription of the Clojure language?
10:25	justin_smith	not at all
10:26	gfredericks	~the clojure cheat sheet is not a complete description of the Clojure language
10:26	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
10:26	nonrecursive	cityspirit: line 3 and 5 of the gist I linked show a let expression getting deref’d, but those don’t actually have to block until the promise at line 8 is encountered. in the mean time, the futures at lines 2, 4, and 6 have already been created, so that work is done concurrently
10:27	favetelinguis	is there something with the same layout that shows the omplete set of functionallity?
10:27	nonrecursive	cityspirit: also, thanks! :D
10:29	justin_smith	favetelinguis: you could look at the ns-publics of clojure.core and the other core libs, and read doc strings or look them up
10:29	justin_smith	,(ns-publics 'clojure.core)
10:29	clojurebot	{primitives-classnames #'clojure.core/primitives-classnames, +' #'clojure.core/+', decimal? #'clojure.core/decimal?, restart-agent #'clojure.core/restart-agent, sort-by #'clojure.core/sort-by, ...}
10:30	gfredericks	,primitives-classnames
10:30	clojurebot	{float "Float/TYPE", int "Integer/TYPE", long "Long/TYPE", boolean "Boolean/TYPE", char "Character/TYPE", ...}
10:30	justin_smith	how handy
10:30	gfredericks	that's my thing-in-clojure-core-I-never-knew-existed-of-the-day
10:31	justin_smith	,(rand-nth (keys (ns-publics 'clojure.core))) ; random clojure def of the day
10:31	clojurebot	proxy
10:32	gfredericks	clj-http defines a custom map type for headers and it doesn't take metadata o_o
10:32	cityspirit	nonrecursive: ahh ok it makes sense - thanks a lot for the responses!
10:32	nonrecursive	cityspirit: no problem :)
10:34	tcrayford____	gfredericks: I'm sure it saves a bunch of pointers in practice
10:34	tcrayford____	(seems like an awful idea too me)
10:35	adgtl	I am tyring to paste following json string in clojure repl
10:35	adgtl	(json/read-str "{"recenttracks":{"track":[{"name":"Loading...","artist":{"#text":""}}]}}")
10:35	adgtl	but it fails
10:36	adgtl	this also fails (json/read-str '{"recenttracks":{"track":[{"name":"Loading...","artist":{"#text":""}}]}}')
10:36	justin_smith	adgtl: neither of those is string syntax
10:36	adgtl	Anyone know how to parse json string
10:36	gfredericks	tcrayford____: which idea is awful?
10:36	tcrayford____	gfredericks: though some of yeller's benchmarks rn spend a significant amount of time in clojure.core/meta (and the calling path from that just leads to `conj`)
10:36	justin_smith	adgtl: you mean how to provide a literal? "{\"recenttracks\":{\"track\"...
10:36	tcrayford____	defining a custom map without meta
10:37	adgtl	justin_smith: I have that string.. I don't want to add \
10:37	adgtl	basically is there any string sanitizer?
10:37	justin_smith	adgtl: sorry, that's the only way to make the valid clojure string literal
10:37	gfredericks	tcrayford____: I think the point of the custom map was to make it case-insensitive; probably the lacking-of-metadata was just an oversight
10:37	justin_smith	adgtl: unless you use emacs, or another editor that can quote it for your
10:37	adgtl	isn't there any helper to do that?
10:37	justin_smith	*you
10:37	justin_smith	no
10:37	tcrayford____	oh case insensitive maps gosh darnit
10:37	adgtl	justin_smith: I use emacs.. how to make it quote?
10:37	justin_smith	the helper would need to get the string to work on it
10:37	tcrayford____	next thing clojure will get HashWithIndifferentAccess
10:37	justin_smith	what you have is not a string
10:38	adgtl	justin_smith: it's string containing json
10:38	clojurebot	No entiendo
10:38	gfredericks	tcrayford____: hey at least it's not in the language
10:38	tcrayford____	haha
10:38	tcrayford____	HashWithIndifferentAccess is in rails
10:38	tcrayford____	so it's in the language ;)
10:38	justin_smith	adgtl: there is a tool called string-edit that has a function string-edit-at-point
10:39	justin_smith	you can insert a string into the string-edit buffer and it gets escaped properly
10:39	adgtl	justin_smith: in emacs?
10:39	justin_smith	yes
10:39	justin_smith	you need to require the string-edit package first
10:39	gfredericks	tcrayford____: ruby is the microkernal of the general purpose programming language "rails"
10:39	AeroNotix	paredit quotes literal strings with quotes as well.
10:39	justin_smith	adgtl: the other option is to put the json in a file, and slurp it
10:39	adgtl	justin_smith: can't do that
10:40	justin_smith	adgtl: optionally, you could also call (pr-str (slurp "file.json"))
10:40	justin_smith	and that also gives you the escaped string
10:41	justin_smith	adgtl: you can'
10:41	justin_smith	t install string-edit?
10:42	zapho53	Is there a way of doing something like this (which doesn't work): (apply Integer/parseInt [day month year hour min]) ?
10:42	justin_smith	zapho53: methods are not first class
10:42	justin_smith	#(Integer/parseInt %) will work
10:42	adgtl	hmm
10:42	adgtl	user=> (def c (json/read-str (pr-str (slurp "seed.json"))))
10:42	adgtl	#'user/c
10:43	adgtl	user=> c
10:43	adgtl	"{\"recenttracks\":{\"track\":[{\"name\":\"Loading...\",\"artist\":{\"#text\":\"\"}}]}}\n"
10:43	adgtl	that's totally wrong
10:43	justin_smith	no, that's correct
10:43	justin_smith	that's exactly what it should look like as a valid clojure string
10:43	adgtl	I want to convert it to clojure map
10:43	justin_smith	it's properly escaped
10:43	justin_smith	OK, then parse it!
10:43	justin_smith	but now you have the string you can parse
10:43	adgtl	Seee what I am doing json/read-str
10:43	adgtl	it should parse it too
10:43	justin_smith	no you aren't
10:43	justin_smith	oh...
10:43	justin_smith	that's weird
10:44	justin_smith	clojure.data.json?
10:44	rufoa	you don't need pr-str
10:44	rufoa	just slurp right into read-str
10:44	zapho53	justin_smith: OK, thanks.
10:44	rufoa	cos its a string
10:44	justin_smith	rufoa: I was suggesting pr-str if he wanted to print the valid escaping
10:44	rufoa	yeah. but now he wants to parse it
10:44	rufoa	so get rid
10:44	AeroNotix	he?
10:44	rufoa	*she?
10:44	justin_smith	adgtl: rufoa is right, just take out the pr-str if you want to parse straight away, and that will work
10:45	justin_smith	adgtl: I only suggested pr-str if you wanted to get the escaped version (it would print it)
10:46	adgtl	justin_smith: this did the trick (def n (json/read-str (json/read-str (pr-str (slurp "seed.json")))))
10:47	rufoa	that relies on a dodgy assumption about the similarity of clojure map and json map representations
10:47	rufoa	don't do it
10:47	rufoa	(def n (json/read-str (slurp "seed.json")))
10:47	justin_smith	adgtl: well, that would do it too, it's also a bit silly
10:48	AeroNotix	A link to clojure.data.json would've solved this ten minutes ago
10:48	rufoa	^
10:48	AeroNotix	adgtl: https://github.com/clojure/data.json
10:48	justin_smith	AeroNotix: he is using data.json
10:48	AeroNotix	read that, come back if you have problems.
10:48	justin_smith	AeroNotix: the issue is the json literal properly quoted
10:48	justin_smith	AeroNotix: which was solved with putting it in a file, and slurp
10:49	AeroNotix	reading the docs always helps
10:49	adgtl	rufoa: thanks
10:49	adgtl	corrrected
10:51	adgtl	doing this now
10:51	adgtl	(get (get (json/read-str (slurp "seed.json")) "recenttracks") "track")
10:51	adgtl	two get to just get array back
10:51	rufoa	check out get-in
10:51	rufoa	in core
10:51	justin_smith	adgtl: (get-in (json/read-str (slurp "seed.json")) ["recenttracks" "track"])
10:52	adgtl	justin_smith: smooth
10:52	AeroNotix	I'm really surprised more APIs don't expose a `get-in`-like function by default
10:52	AeroNotix	because it's so useful
10:53	tcrayford____	AeroNotix: got some other examples you want a thing like get-in for?
10:53	tcrayford____	apart from update-in/assoc-in
10:53	AeroNotix	tcrayford____: other languages
10:53	justin_smith	AeroNotix: inorite - when I first came to clojure, I had been working on a guile lib to work with json, and I was like "wait, get-in is what I wanted all along"
10:53	AeroNotix	justin_smith: exactly :)
10:53	tcrayford____	oh haha
10:54	AeroNotix	but for clojure-specific stuff, I think I'm missing dissoc-in
10:54	AeroNotix	or dissoc-if
11:19	gfredericks	dissoc-if-not-contains?-meta
11:19	gfredericks	dissoc-if-not-contains?-meta-in
11:19	rufoa	haha
11:19	rufoa	is there a macro version of that
11:22	AeroNotix	Do people use meta a lot? I don't seem to use it all that much
11:22	gfredericks	probably not; it's a weird feature but sometimes useful
11:23	gfredericks	confession: I used it this morning: https://github.com/gfredericks/test.chuck/issues/5
11:25	michaelr`	hi
11:30	michaelr`	I'm writing an application with ClojureScript and Om. I'd like to allow users to deep link into the application screens and then share urls. Such as the following app.com/#/factory/workers/1. The thing here is that when a users gets to this specific page, the application must load not only the data for this specific page, but also all of it's other state - such as to load the "factory" and then to load the "worker".
11:31	michaelr`	Now I'm asking how to architecture for such feature, so as not to make a sphaghetti off of it. :)
11:31	justin_smith	michaelr`: perhaps make a tree that describes the feature dependencies, and a function that can load the code needed for the features?
11:31	justin_smith	michaelr`: almost sounds like component when I put it that way...
11:32	michaelr`	justin_smith: it's less about code, more about state.
11:33	michaelr`	justin_smith: that is the application needs to be brought to a certain state such as if the user has been using it and navigating to this specific screen from the main screen.
11:34	michaelr`	justin_smith: here, he navigates directly to the sub screen...
11:34	justin_smith	michaelr`: component is about state
11:35	justin_smith	I did say "feature" rather than "state" - because big picture what matters is the functionality, and state or not is an implementation detail of that
11:37	justin_smith	regardless, what you need is a way to describe the set of features you need, and then something that can take that discription and build up the state / bindings needed to make those features
11:38	piranha	what could be wrong if compojure doesn't return Content-Type when I serve resources (with `(route/resources "/")`)?
11:39	justin_smith	piranha: so the response to the client has no Content-Type in the headers?
11:39	piranha	justin_smith: yep
11:39	justin_smith	what kind of file is it?
11:39	mavbozo	piranha: have you put content-type middleware?
11:39	michaelr`	justin_smith: ok thanks
11:39	piranha	mavbozo: hm, no, should I?
11:40	piranha	I've been looking at compojure sources and it looks like it should still work: https://github.com/weavejester/compojure/blob/master/src/compojure/route.clj#L38
11:40	piranha	justin_smith: css file, for example
11:40	justin_smith	michaelr`: something that often happens is that the logic for creating the proper state and bindings is interleaved with the UI workflow
11:40	justin_smith	michaelr`: which can totally work until you want parts of the UI to be directly accessible
11:41	justin_smith	michaelr`: at which point the building of state and bindings needs to be decoupled from UI - so your UI code will likely need to be changed to call the generic "build state and bindings if needed" code
11:42	justin_smith	piranha: there is a wrap-content-type handler that could help you
11:42	justin_smith	piranha: but I thought that was in by default
11:42	piranha	yeah, found it, thanks
11:42	piranha	but looking at compojure's code it should've been done already for me :\
11:43	piranha	anyway, this one should work
11:43	piranha	yep, it helped
11:44	piranha	damn
11:44	piranha	%)
11:44	piranha	justin_smith: except curl -I http://localhost:3000/ now returns application/octet-stream :-)
11:45	justin_smith	piranha: well, you will need to manually add a content-type header if the file-type can't be inferred I think
11:45	piranha	(GET "/" [] (resp/resource-response "index.html")) - how do I add content type here?
11:46	justin_smith	piranha: {:headers {:content-type "text/html"} :body (resp/resource-response "index.html") :status 200}
11:46	piranha	thanks!
11:46	justin_smith	that's if resource-response returns the text of the page
11:46	justin_smith	and not a map
11:47	michaelr`	justin_smith: can you maybe point at a source code anywhere which works like you described?
11:50	justin_smith	michaelr`: a very common, simple example would be the typical "login required" workflow. Instead of having a landing page that you always hit after login, you have a login that intercepts unauthorized access, and after login it sends you back to the resource you initially asked for
11:52	justin_smith	other usages of that pattern will add a more complex map of required features, but have a similar logic - you have a "desired destination" and you have the code that figures out what needs to be built up (load profile from the db? authenticate? load some resource representing your saved session?)
11:54	michaelr`	justin_smith: ok, thanks :)
12:03	michaelr`	justin_smith: i need to make some more thinking.. actually, I might be overthinking it as the current requirements only define one resource that needs to be deep linked within the application, and even then no constraints are set on how the URL should look like. So I'd have to weight seriously on whether there would be a real plus to architecting the whole application for deep linking. Of course that would be really neat, but I'm not
12:03	michaelr`	sure it's a real feature the client needs and wants to pay for :)
12:03	justin_smith	michaelr`: maybe a part of the URL could encode the source of the resource you need?
12:03	justin_smith	well anything beyond what would be specific to a user profile of course
12:04	cddr	I'm trying to add some debugging operations to cider-nrepl but am having a hard time making the tools.jar available to the middlware I'm adding
12:04	justin_smith	cddr: the jvm tools.jar?
12:04	cddr	yes
12:04	justin_smith	with some vms it needs to be explicitly added to your classpath
12:05	justin_smith	it's a 1.7 change iirc?
12:05	cddr	oh
12:05	justin_smith	cddr: and you need the jdk for tools.jar - jre works for most clojure stuff, but you need jdk for that one jar
12:06	cddr	ok, yeah I do have the jdk
12:07	cddr	Can a leiningen plugin be dependent on another plugin?
12:08	justin_smith	yeah, but it should specify it as a normal dep
12:08	justin_smith	since the other plugin should be available at its runtime
12:08	cddr	ah, right maybe that's what I was missing
12:08	cddr	I was using lein-jdk-tools but it wasn't working
12:08	kaplan	can anyone explain macros in a simple way to me?
12:08	cddr	But didn't have it in the deps
12:08	justin_smith	kaplan: they return the list representing the code that will eventually run
12:09	justin_smith	,(defmacro two [] (list '+ 1 2))
12:09	clojurebot	#'sandbox/two
12:09	justin_smith	,(two)
12:09	clojurebot	3
12:09	justin_smith	haha
12:09	justin_smith	I made a mistake, but I hope it's still clear what that did
12:09	justin_smith	kaplan: the place where it gets interesting, is you can use the full power of the clojure language to construct that list
12:10	kaplan	hmmn, not clear
12:10	justin_smith	and we have tools like ` (aka syntax-quote) and ~ / ~@ (unquote / unquote splicing) that make writing macros much easier
12:10	justin_smith	,(list '+ 1 1)
12:10	clojurebot	(+ 1 1)
12:10	justin_smith	that returns a list
12:10	justin_smith	which also happens to be valid clojuer code
12:10	justin_smith	*clojure
12:11	justin_smith	,(defn two-f [] (list '+ 1 1))
12:11	clojurebot	#'sandbox/two-f
12:11	justin_smith	that's a function
12:11	justin_smith	,(defmacro two-m [] (list '+ 1 1))
12:11	clojurebot	#'sandbox/two-m
12:11	justin_smith	that's a macro
12:11	justin_smith	,(two-f)
12:11	clojurebot	(+ 1 1)
12:11	justin_smith	,(two-m)
12:11	clojurebot	2
12:11	justin_smith	note that they contain the same thing
12:11	justin_smith	but because one is a macro, its result gets evaluated, as if I had typed that in
12:12	kaplan	ahh
12:12	smt-	justin_smith: that was very good
12:12	justin_smith	smt-: thanks :)
12:12	kaplan	What do ` ~ and ~@ do
12:12	justin_smith	kaplan: so you can write code that constructs the code that needs to be run. This is often for developer convenience, making prettier syntaxes.
12:12	justin_smith	,`(+ 1 1)
12:12	clojurebot	(clojure.core/+ 1 1)
12:13	justin_smith	so first off, ` resolves things to their bindings
12:13	justin_smith	+ becomes clojure.core/+
12:13	justin_smith	(def num 42)
12:13	justin_smith	,(def num 42)
12:13	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.SecurityException: denied, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
12:13	justin_smith	hrmph
12:13	justin_smith	,(defn num [] 42)
12:13	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.SecurityException: denied, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
12:13	justin_smith	oh, it's the name
12:13	justin_smith	,(def num- 42)
12:13	clojurebot	#'sandbox/num-
12:14	justin_smith	,`(+ num- 1)
12:14	clojurebot	(clojure.core/+ sandbox/num- 1)
12:14	justin_smith	so that resolved the var
12:14	justin_smith	,`(+ ~num- 1)
12:14	clojurebot	(clojure.core/+ 42 1)
12:14	justin_smith	that "unquoted" the var
12:15	justin_smith	,`(+ ~@[num- 100 10001] 1)
12:15	clojurebot	(clojure.core/+ 42 100 10001 1)
12:15	justin_smith	and that unquoted, splicing
12:15	justin_smith	so these are all tools for deciding when things should be "unquoted" (evaluated sooner rather than later) and splicing rather than inserting
12:16	justin_smith	,`(+ ~[num- 100 10001] 1) ; without splicing
12:16	clojurebot	(clojure.core/+ [42 100 10001] 1)
12:17	justin_smith	kaplan: basic idea is that ` / ~ / ~@ can make macro definition much easier
12:19	mavbozo	piranha: i just tried using compojure-app leiningen template and (compojure.route/resource "/") just works and sending the Content-Type
12:19	piranha	:(
12:19	mavbozo	piranha: do you also use `lein new compojure-app ...`?
12:19	piranha	mavbozo: I was doing exactly the same... anyway, wrote a bit of custom code, and it works
12:19	piranha	nope, not even close :)
12:19	piranha	I had to put compojure inside of an existing system
12:20	mavbozo	piranha: so, you use (with `(route/resources "/")`) . that's new to me
12:21	piranha	the "(with" part was just my words, not clojure's code :)
12:28	gfredericks	none of these routing libs seem to think it might be useful to know what route is going to match while you're running your middleware
12:28	justin_smith	gfredericks: it's tricky - my middleware might want to act differently based on the route that gets matched, but I also might want to use a middleware to change which route gets hit (see friend for example)
12:32	gfredericks	justin_smith: yeah -- I think it should just be easier to do things where you want to do them
12:32	gfredericks	I switched from compojure to polaris to make that easier, but it was still clunky
12:32	justin_smith	gfredericks: let me know if you have ideas for improving polaris btw.
12:33	justin_smith	I still vividly remember the heated discussion as we designed polaris at an indian buffet
12:38	AeroNotix	polaris' image makes me feel nauseous
12:38	AeroNotix	especially when scrolling
12:38	justin_smith	haha
12:49	gfredericks	justin_smith: iirc I ended up using polaris to make a middleware that's ordered pretty early, does route matching, adds a key to the req saying what route matched, and a function for doing that route's thing
12:49	gfredericks	then there's a dummy handler at the bottom that just calls the function
12:49	justin_smith	gfredericks: interesting. If that's generally useful we could maybe include that middleware
12:50	gfredericks	it felt pretty weird :/
12:50	justin_smith	gfredericks: why not write the middleware to do things on the request coming out the other side rather than coming in?
12:50	gfredericks	thewhatnow?
12:51	justin_smith	ie. instead of (fn [handler] (fn [request] (handler (foo request)))) you can do (fn [handler] (fn [request] (foo (handler request))))
12:51	justin_smith	the latter lets the handler run first before doing its thing
12:51	gfredericks	the driving use case was wanting all logging associated w/ the request to be able to include which route it was applying to
12:51	justin_smith	ahh
12:52	justin_smith	so the logging could use the latter pattern, right?
12:52	gfredericks	well there's two middlewares involved
12:52	gfredericks	one that does the route matching and one that does logging
12:53	justin_smith	yeah, I'm just saying if you added an assoc of the route at the handler dispatch, the first one isn't even a middleware any more
12:53	justin_smith	and if the logging uses type b (acting after the handler instead of before) it gets all the info it needs
12:54	gfredericks	the logging goes on both sides
12:54	gfredericks	so the route has to be matched beforehand
12:55	justin_smith	what if the first part of the logger attached a lambda to the request
12:55	justin_smith	and the second part ran it
12:55	justin_smith	(with matching route as an arg, if course)
12:55	gfredericks	right, something like that is an option; it feels a little risky/loose to defer logging to after the request
12:56	justin_smith	it's still during the request - just on the tail end after the handler got hit
12:56	gfredericks	and that also presupposes that there aren't any other pre-middlewares interested in logging
12:56	gfredericks	or else you'd have to rewrite all of those too
12:56	justin_smith	right
12:57	justin_smith	gfredericks: it feels like something where there would be an elegant solution
12:57	justin_smith	perhaps it would require route matching vs. route execution to be broken up (which is what you did, in an ad-hoc way)
12:57	gfredericks	yeah
12:57	gfredericks	route matching could return a keyword w/ a params map or something
12:58	justin_smith	polaris should have a function that looks up the handler but not yet calling it
12:58	justin_smith	hmm, yeah
12:58	adgtl	Anyone know easiest way to parse json in clojurescript?
12:58	gfredericks	make the pattern: (def my-routes [...]) (def base-handler (compile-base-handler my-routes)) (def wrap-route-matching (compile-route-matching my-routes)) or so
12:59	adgtl	seems this one is not available clojure.data.json?
13:00	justin_smith	adgtl: I think the easiest way in cljs is to let js do the parsing, and then convert it to clojure data afterward if needed with -js->clj
13:00	adgtl	js->clj?
13:00	justin_smith	yeah
13:00	justin_smith	-js->clj is the underlying protocol method
13:00	justin_smith	but better to use the function, yeah
13:01	justin_smith	https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/src/cljs/cljs/core.cljs#L8676
13:01	adgtl	why can't I do (require '[clojure.data.json :as json])
13:01	justin_smith	clojure.data.json uses java
13:01	justin_smith	which isn't there in the clojurescript runtime
13:01	justin_smith	well, it uses the jvm
13:02	justin_smith	and a javascript runtime's native json reading is very likely better than clojure.data.json could do anyway
13:03	adgtl	justin_smith: but now I have problem.. how can I know that some libraries are there in clojurescript and some are not
13:03	adgtl	I was assuming all the clojure libs are available for clojurescript too
13:03	justin_smith	adgtl: hopefully the libs will mention if they are cljs compatible
13:03	justin_smith	no, not all work
13:03	adgtl	Any documentation for -js->clj ?
13:04	justin_smith	adgtl: I just linked to it's source, including doc-string
13:04	justin_smith	you would create the js object from the json in the normal way it is done in js
13:04	justin_smith	and then call js->clj on it
13:04	tomjack	cfleming: downgrading to 0.1.44 appears to have fixed my resolution issue
13:05	adgtl	(-js->clj "{}") fails on repl
13:05	justin_smith	that's not a js object
13:05	justin_smith	that's a json string
13:05	adgtl	how to pass js object then?
13:05	justin_smith	something like (js->clj (JSON/parse "{}")) I think
13:05	tomjack	cfleming: oh, no, it didn't, nevermind :(
13:06	adgtl	throws error too (-js->clj {a: "b"})
13:06	justin_smith	adgtl: yes, because you can't just put js literals in cljs
13:06	justin_smith	that's why I suggested using JSON/parse
13:07	adgtl	(js->clj (JSON/parse "{'a': 'awesome'}")) fails too
13:07	justin_smith	it shouldn't
13:07	justin_smith	don't use '
13:07	justin_smith	' isn't json
13:08	justin_smith	(js->clj (JSON/parse "{}")) will work
13:08	adgtl	okay
13:09	justin_smith	(js->clj (JSON/parse "{\"a\": \"awesome\"}")) also works
13:13	gfredericks	clojurebot: ' \|isn't\| json
13:13	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
13:14	adgtl	cljs throwing
13:14	adgtl	No such namespace: JSON at line 13
13:15	adgtl	I could do that from repl
13:15	adgtl	but not from my cljs code
13:15	l3dx	I have a map where each value again is a map. I want to dissoc one of the keys from the inner maps. how would you do that?
13:15	michaniskin	js/JSON
13:15	gfredericks	l3dx: update
13:16	justin_smith	michaniskin: so then would it be (.parse js/JSON "{}") ?
13:16	michaniskin	justin_smith: should be yes
13:16	l3dx	gfredericks: thanks!
13:23	adgtl	Just realized that I can't read files from clojurescript
13:23	adgtl	so slurp won't work
13:23	justin_smith	but you can serve json files to cljs
13:23	l3dx	hah, nice 404 at clojuredocs :)
13:24	justin_smith	and there is also a #js literal for inline js in clojurescript
13:25	justin_smith	#js {"foo" "bar"} will create a js object directly
13:25	justin_smith	without even needing the json parsing step
13:27	michaniskin	(js-obj "foo" "bar")
13:29	justin_smith	michaniskin: #js reader is just a shorcut for js-obj
13:29	Lewix	https://gist.github.com/6ewis/eb653a3985c5f7feeb30 - what does bottom and size refer to in this example
13:30	justin_smith	Lewix: the arguments to the function
13:30	michaniskin	justin_smith: indeed
13:30	Lewix	justin_smith: no. I mean what do those specific argument represent
13:31	justin_smith	from reading the code, the y of the bottom edge, the x of the left edge, and the width/height
13:31	justin_smith	it generates x/y pairs for a square that is aligned with the cartesian grid
13:32	Lewix	justin_smith: width/height?
13:32	whodidthis	how do i get lein midje to use project.clj's :test profile
13:32	justin_smith	Lewix: yes, the size, in x/y units
13:33	Lewix	justin_smith: it's not intuitive to me
13:34	Lewix	justin_smith: thanks. I'll think about it
13:34	justin_smith	well, since it is a square, the width and height are the same, right?
13:35	justin_smith	so they are provided as one argument
13:36	Lewix	justin_smith: thanks. i got it now
13:42	Lewix	How do you think about the parenthesis in clojure?
13:43	Lewix	like curly braces?
13:52	sveri	Hi, having a list of arbitrary depth and length, how can I check if it contains a certain element?
13:52	smt-	Lewix: in C: foobar(1, 2, "foo"); in Clojure: (foobar 1 2 "foo"). that's how I think about them. they are not the same as curly braces
13:53	rufoa	sveri: do you mean nested vectors? if so flatten them first
13:53	sveri	rufoa: actually I mean seqs :-)
13:53	sveri	but flattening sounds good :-)
13:54	Lewix	smt-: you think about them in terms of functions
13:54	sveri	rufoa: thank you, I guess flatten will do the trick
13:54	rufoa	,(some #{4} (flatten '(1 2 (3 4) 5)))
13:54	clojurebot	4
13:54	smt-	Lewix: the trick is that everything in clojure is an expression, which means everything returns a value. even an 'if' returns a value. 'if' in C does not, it just branches the execution. once you grok the implications of that, parenthesis suddenly make sense
13:56	Lewix	smt-: I see. so you think about them in terms of expressions
13:56	adgtl	What's the simplest way to do ajax from clojurescript?
13:58	smt-	Lewix: yes. in C you have nested blocks of code, and you control the execution flow. in clojure you have nested expressions but no blocks, hence no need for curly braces
13:58	rufoa	Lewix you might find this illuminating https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-expression#Use_in_Lisp
13:59	Lewix	smt-: thanks
13:59	Lewix	rufoa: thanks I'll give it a read later
14:02	smt-	adgtl: https://github.com/JulianBirch/cljs-ajax
14:02	adgtl	sveri: thanks :)
14:03	adgtl	smt-: how about cljs-http?
14:05	smt-	adgtl: I've never used cljs-http so I don't know about that
14:12	adgtl	smt-: ok
14:19	Lewix	(require '[clojure.string :as str])
14:20	Lewix	why do we need `
14:20	Lewix	;`[1 2]
14:20	jjmojojjmojo	Lewix: because clojure.string isn't in the namespace
14:20	Lewix	;;`[1 2]
14:20	Lewix	>>`[1 2]
14:21	jjmojojjmojo	Lewix: https://clojuredocs.org/clojure.core/quote
14:21	jjmojojjmojo	that's what ' is expaned to in the compiler
14:22	Lewix	How do you guys run clojure code
14:22	Lewix	here
14:22	mearnsh	,`[1 2]
14:22	clojurebot	[1 2]
14:22	Lewix	thanks
14:23	Lewix	,(type `[1 2])
14:23	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentVector
14:23	Lewix	,(type [1 2])
14:23	mearnsh	,`(+)
14:23	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentVector
14:23	clojurebot	(clojure.core/+)
14:23	mearnsh	,'(+)
14:23	clojurebot	(+)
14:23	Lewix	so jjmojojjmojo it's pretty much the same thing it seems (whenever we use vector)
14:23	mearnsh	syntax quote ` gives you fully qualified symbols
14:23	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
14:24	sundbry	Clojurebot, stop being a dick!
14:24	Lewix	mearnsh: can you be more explicit please
14:24	mearnsh	`str
14:24	mearnsh	,`str
14:24	clojurebot	clojure.core/str
14:24	mearnsh	,'str
14:24	clojurebot	str
14:25	Lewix	mearnsh: i understand why it's needed for lists but not so sure about vectors
14:25	jjmojojjmojo	Lewix: it's not though - when you use it in a case like require, you're passing an un-evaluated vector that contains references to things you want to be loaded - if you try (require [clojure.string :as str]) it will break (unless you somehow have clojure.string already loaded)
14:25	mearnsh	is there a context to this question?
14:25	justin_smith	Lewix: in general it namespace qualifies things, and allows selective unquoting
14:25	justin_smith	` is most useful in macros
14:25	jjmojojjmojo	mearnsh: the initial query was about require
14:26	jjmojojjmojo	disclaimer: I am not an expert :)
14:26	Lewix	jjmojojjmojo: ah i see, we are using a function in the vector we're passing
14:26	srruby	How do clojure servers compare with node.js for serving restful apis ? I'm reviewing current web stacks. Some are recommending node,express,mongo,and angular. I'd probably go for clojure and react...
14:27	jjmojojjmojo	srruby: what sort of comparison do you want?
14:27	justin_smith	Lewix: wait, you showed an example using ' and then asked why we need ` right?
14:27	jjmojojjmojo	express != node :)
14:28	Lewix	srruby: my guess is not callback hell and promises craziness anymore
14:28	Lewix	justin_smith: i meant `
14:28	jjmojojjmojo	srruby: I'm not like the other kids, but I prefer to build my restful stuff without help from frameworks and other distractions - so all I need is something like ring
14:28	justin_smith	ok, because you should not use ` with require
14:29	Lewix	justin_smith: oh apparently it's ' ( i confuse both all the time)
14:29	jjmojojjmojo	Lewix: me too :)
14:29	justin_smith	OK - because it made it look like you were asking a much more complex question than you actually were
14:29	Lewix	jjmojojjmojo: so what's ` for and what's ' for
14:30	Lewix	justin_smith: most of my questions are probably basic at this point. I don't know clojure
14:30	justin_smith	' prevents evaluation, ` prevents evaluation, fully resolves symbols in the current context, and allows selective unquoting and splicing
14:30	jjmojojjmojo	Lewix: ^^^ what justin_smith said
14:30	srruby	Thanks everyone. I'll think about how to formulate a better question.
14:30	justin_smith	the features of ` are mostly useful when writing macros
14:31	Lewix	justin_smith: it' sso confusing
14:31	smt-	Lewix: does this help:
14:31	smt-	,(let [x 10 y 20] [x y])
14:32	clojurebot	[10 20]
14:32	smt-	,(let [x 10 y 20] '[x y])
14:32	clojurebot	[x y]
14:32	justin_smith	srruby: the big difference between clojure and node imho is that clojure takes longer to start up, but it can scale more in a single process. Both can do async within one thread, but clojure has the option of also having mutiple threads
14:32	smt-	,(let [x 10 y 20] `[x y])
14:32	clojurebot	[sandbox/x sandbox/y]
14:32	Lewix	holycow
14:33	Lewix	justin_smith: , smt- : I'm not sure i understand `
14:33	Lewix	it does the same thing as ' + extra stuff
14:34	justin_smith	Lewix: it's useful when writing macros, don't worry about it (and don't use it) until you need it for macro writing
14:34	Lewix	yet we cannot use it as a replacement for '
14:34	justin_smith	no, because it does extra stuff :)
14:34	Lewix	ok I'll leave it at that for now
14:34	justin_smith	A tank does what a truck does, + extra stuff
14:34	justin_smith	but you probably don't want to use it instead of a truck usually
14:35	Lewix	ok fair enough
14:35	Lewix	am I gonna survive with clojure?
14:35	srruby	justin_smith: Thanks. I think I'll use Clojure when I can in order to preserve my sanity.
14:35	Lewix	I'm losing my motivation to learn it everyday
14:35	justin_smith	Lewix: I think so. Don't be afraid to try things in the repl. Try things that you think should work, and also try things that you think should fail.
14:35	Lewix	srruby: aha tell me about it
14:36	drojas	anyone knows some graph data structure library?
14:36	Lewix	justin_smith: what p languages do you work with?
14:36	justin_smith	Lewix: remember that it doesn't go as deep as other langauges do. You learn some rules and special cases, and relatively quickly you are done. After that it's figuring out the nuances, and how to design things for the most part.
14:37	justin_smith	Lewix: in the past I have used C, C++, OCaml, Scheme
14:37	justin_smith	played around a little bit with java / javascript and a bunch of other stuff
14:37	justin_smith	lot's of shell scripting with vanilla bourne shell/ bash if you count that
14:37	Lewix	justin_smith: I see. thanks for the encouragement
14:38	justin_smith	Lewix: I'd say it's pretty similar to C in terms of the number of special cases you need to learn. Much simpler than eg. C++, Java. A bit more complex than OCaml and Scheme are but not massively so.
14:39	smt-	Lewix: have you written any simple programs in .clj files, or played only in repl?
14:40	Lewix	justin_smith: yea I learned C++ Java back in college (Haven't touch those for an eternity so I barely remember). I also played with C but these days I'm mostly into ruby and javascript in my day to day work
14:40	smt-	justin_smith: btw, does OCaml have persistent data structures?
14:40	justin_smith	smt-: indeed it does
14:41	justin_smith	smt-: it doesn't have a concurrent garbage collector though, so it can't do multi process things as easily as clojure
14:41	Lewix	smt-: I'm playing while learning. It;s just that pesky feeling that you're starting something from scratch and you're not even sure it's worth your time
14:41	justin_smith	usually it is similar to eg. ruby / python / node where you start multiple processes and have them communicate, not as nice as multi threading in clojure
14:41	smt-	justin_smith: how do you like OCaml? I almost began learning it some years ago, but didn't. should I? :)
14:42	justin_smith	smt-: I think it is great. Many of the advantages of Haskell while being much easier to pick up and learn.
14:42	justin_smith	and if you like clojure, most of the ideas cross over (higher order functions, immutable data, etc.)
14:43	smt-	justin_smith: thanks, sounds promising
14:43	justin_smith	but you also get pattern matching, and static typing (for better and every so often worse)
14:44	Lewix	justin_smith: which one do you prefer
14:44	justin_smith	Lewix: I like clojure - because I am doing stuff that works better with real threads
14:44	justin_smith	also, it's easier to deploy in a corporate environment if you are using the jvm
14:45	Lewix	justin_smith: I heard we can use clojure on top of node?
14:45	justin_smith	Lewix: clojurescript, yeah. Though I think node support might still be in progress?
14:45	smt-	Lewix: what kind of applications would you like to do? that way you can figure out if learning clojure is worth it
14:45	smt-	Lewix: games? web apps?
14:46	Lewix	smt-: mostly backend for mobile apps
14:46	justin_smith	Lewix: server backend, with multiple clients, is a place where Clojure does very well.
14:46	smt-	Lewix: for that kind of work I find clojure excellent
14:47	Lewix	great. lets see how it goes
15:21	Lewix	justin_smith: what book do you advise
15:23	whodidthis	how do i insert a vector of longs to a bigint[] column in yesql, i tried "...VALUES (:user_id, :my_vector)" and "VALUES (:user_id, (:my_vector))" but the first one says "insert has more expressions than target columns" and the other "expression is of type record"
15:23	justin_smith	Lewix: Clojure Programming is good
15:25	devll	(inc justin_smith )
15:25	lazybot	⇒ 4
15:25	justin_smith	devll: it's space-sensitive
15:25	justin_smith	(identity karma karma karma karma chameleon)
15:25	lazybot	karma karma karma karma chameleon has karma 1.
15:26	AeroNotix	(identity AeroNotix)
15:26	lazybot	AeroNotix has karma 5.
15:26	AeroNotix	yay
15:26	AeroNotix	TIL
15:26	justin_smith	(identity justin_smith)
15:26	lazybot	justin_smith has karma 186.
15:26	justin_smith	(identity justin_smith )
15:26	lazybot	justin_smith has karma 4.
15:26	AeroNotix	(inc justin_smith)
15:26	lazybot	⇒ 187
15:26	AeroNotix	187 skills
15:26	AeroNotix	Ckihy
15:27	devll	wow
15:28	AeroNotix	Protected by clojurists with big ideas, Parens, and 187 skills
15:28	AeroNotix	justin_smith: ^
15:28	justin_smith	haha
15:29	ncthom91	hi all. Any overtone users in here?
15:32	amalloy	~anyone
15:32	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
15:32	AeroNotix	or my favourite variation:
15:32	AeroNotix	don't ask to ask, ask.
15:32	amalloy	~ask
15:32	clojurebot	The Ask To Ask protocol wastes more bandwidth than any version of the Ask protocol, so just ask your question.
15:33	AeroNotix	:\|
15:33	AeroNotix	(inc clojurebot)
15:33	lazybot	⇒ 47
15:33	amalloy	that factoid is technomancy's i think
15:33	AeroNotix	(inc technomancy)
15:33	lazybot	⇒ 162
15:33	AeroNotix	,scoreboard
15:33	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: scoreboard in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
15:35	gfredericks	I think there's another element to it, which is that some people might be able to answer your question but aren't willing to admit to arbitrary familiarity with X since who knows what the followup question might be
15:35	amalloy	right, that's my perspective
15:35	AeroNotix	also, the X/Y problem
15:36	amalloy	(not on overtone specifically, since i know i won't be able to answer)
15:45	justin_smith	amalloy: the question asker may think it's an overtone problem, but it turns out to be like their profiles.clj is messed up
15:45	justin_smith	amalloy: things like that happen all the time :)
15:52	justin_smith	ncthom91: anyway, what's your overtone question?
15:54	ncthom91	justin_smith it's about how to route audio buses in overtone. i.e. if I define an instrument with definst, I'm not sure how I would then route the output of that instrument through various fx (i.e. if I want to write a custom waveshaper), and then how I would do things like split the audio bus and route the same channel simultaneously through two parallel effects
15:55	justin_smith	ncthom91: with overtone's model, splitting a bus is just a question of using the same bus in two places
15:55	ncthom91	cool. that parts easy enough then, eh? :)
15:55	justin_smith	ncthom91: regarding routing, it's been a while since I have used this, but it all happens in the supercollider vm - there are commands in the vm to route different "synth groups" to one another
15:56	justin_smith	every instrument is in a synth group, and you can tell the sc vm that the output of one synth group is the input of another etc.
15:56	ncthom91	justin_smith do you know how to do that?
15:56	ncthom91	is it part of hte overtone clojure api? Or do I have to get down in the SC trenches?
15:57	justin_smith	ncthom91: almost everything in overtone is just network commands sent to the sc vm
15:57	justin_smith	all those routing commands are exposed to the network interface, even if overtone doesn't map them they can likely still be accessed in some way
15:59	ncthom91	justin_smith this actually looks close to what I need I think: https://github.com/overtone/overtone/blob/e200075da27375727db1f5ce342e2e1c22ea1dbd/src/overtone/examples/synthesis/fx.clj#L25-L36
16:00	justin_smith	that looks exactly right, yeah
16:00	justin_smith	though I thought it would be a bit more flexible. I guess you could define everything to take a bus in
16:01	justin_smith	and a bus out...
16:01	justin_smith	but yeah, it will at least do what you want
16:01	justin_smith	(right now I am working on a little pixie lang dsl to create a csound score for a musical project)
16:01	ncthom91	justin_smith woah awesome! Is it open source?
16:02	justin_smith	not uploaded yet, I might at the very least upload some of the util libs
16:02	ncthom91	I'm working on a synthesis exploration blog post using overtone
16:02	justin_smith	may or may not upload the composition (it uses a huge audio file...)
16:02	justin_smith	cool
16:03	justin_smith	I tend to like csound as a target lang because it is super trivial to generate code for (it is basically a modified assember syntax)
16:03	justin_smith	or a lisp with no parens, no first class functions, and only one expression per line
16:05	ncthom91	justin_smith hm, I'm rather unfamiliar with csound but I know I've heard of it
16:05	justin_smith	(the syntax supports more than that, but it can be used in that stripped down assmbler style)
16:05	justin_smith	it's a direct descendent of the language max matthews used to program a computer to sing "bicycle built for two"
16:06	justin_smith	not as fancy as supercollider, but it's familiar to me so I use it
16:06	justin_smith	and it's very low overhead for the most part
16:08	ncthom91	to be fair, I never got into SC either. I've always worked in higher level languages like Max/MSP, but in the past few years I've really gotten interested in the math behind hte sound, hence my diving into overtone
16:08	ncthom91	hm that's probably where I've heard of CSound... does Max/MSP have a relation to csound?
16:09	justin_smith	ncthom91: MSP is Miller S Puckett, a student of Max Matthews
16:10	justin_smith	MSP is the author of PD, which you may have heard of
16:10	justin_smith	they all (including supercollider which is the engine for overtone) use the same basic internal model
16:10	justin_smith	but they have various syntax and UI differences
16:11	justin_smith	eg. Max and PD are both point and click visual programming
16:11	justin_smith	but the semantics are identical to the textual ones still
16:12	cfleming	tomjack: Ok, thank - I haven't had a chance to look at your repro case yet, I'll take a look today
16:12	cfleming	tomjack: *thanks
16:21	ncthom91	justin_smith cool, yea i've used PD a bit
16:23	justin_smith	I've found core.async maps nicely to the part of my brain that knows pd
16:24	ncthom91	justin_smith how do you suppose I could take an audio bus in, duplicate the sound and pitch offset one of the duplicates in the output bus?
16:24	justin_smith	my bigger pd patches were all sends and receives
16:26	justin_smith	so mix audio on an input bus with a pitch shifted verdion of itself?
16:27	ncthom91	justin_smith yea
16:27	justin_smith	the audio sig itself won't be destroyed by pitch shifting, so you can just use the same input twice
16:30	justin_smith	and then sum the regular signal with the shifted one. usually this turns out better if you also adjust the level of the clean and shifted sigs
16:32	ncthom91	justin_smith sweet yea that makes sense. How would you shift the signal? Supposing I'm going to have to calc the FFT here yea?
16:32	justin_smith	it is just like taking two connections from the same in in pd, processing one, and adding that to the other
16:32	ncthom91	right
16:32	sveri	Hi, I have trouble understanding first and rest in a loop recur. In this paste: http://pastebin.com/2d53etiJ I have a vec, doing first on it gives me back a list. Doing rest on it gives me back a list in a list whereas I expect just a simple list too. Why is that?
16:33	justin_smith	ncthom91: there should br a good pitch shift built in
16:33	ncthom91	justin_smith ah, that'd be sweet :)
16:34	ncthom91	hm looks like there's a UGen for it. Suppose I gotta learn how to use UGens then lol
16:36	justin_smith	sveri: do you want second instead of rest?
16:37	sveri	justin_smith: second would work, but I might have more than two seqs in the vec and wanted to use loop / recur with first / rest
16:40	ncthom91	justin_smith any chance you've worked with ugens in overtone? can't seem to find good docs on it
16:41	sveri	jeez, I am so stupid, of course rest returns the rest in a list -.-
16:45	justin_smith	ncthom91: doesn't using a name in a synthdef translate to using that ugen?
16:50	justin_smith	the overtone cheatsheet indicates you can call shift in a synthdef
16:55	ncthom91	justin_smith what do you mean using a name in synthdef translates to using a ugen?
16:57	justin_smith	synthdefs are not normal code
16:57	justin_smith	hey are dsl
16:58	justin_smith	(shift sig) in a synthdef translates to inserting the shift ugen in the def
17:00	emaczen	does anybody here use the luminus web framework/libraries?
17:01	emaczen	I want to know about the HTML templates that are loading by default
17:01	emaczen	I would prefer to solely use clojure/clojurescript
17:03	justin_smith	emaczen: you should just be able to add a dep to your preferred templating lib and csll that in your handlers
17:06	emaczen	justin_smith: Do you use the luminus stackk?
17:06	emaczen	Or the libraries since it is mostly a set of libraries rather than a framework
17:10	emaczen	justin_smith: I ask because I don't see where to do this -- I see a selmer dependency in handler.clj but it is only called in one place that doesn't seem all that related to what you mention.
17:10	avshalom	emaczen: yes, and i also use "web development with clojure" as a reference
17:11	justin_smith	I don't use it, but chsnging page rendering will just be a question of changing what the handler function returns
17:11	emaczen	justin_smith: Ok, I know where that is then.
17:11	emaczen	avshalom: Do you use Selmer? Or do you use clojurescript for templating?
17:12	emaczen	I think the cljs templating is the hiccup library? Is that correct?
17:12	avshalom	not yet, now i am using hiccup
17:12	avshalom	once i start working with web developers i will probably switch over
17:12	emaczen	avshalom: Do you plan on using Selmer? If so why?
17:13	avshalom	emaczen: i think it would be better for implementing existing stylesheets that were created by webdevs using other technology
17:14	emaczen	avshalom: Yeah, I'm trying to work by myself so it wil be a matter of personal preference for me then :)
17:14	avshalom	emaczen: now, i am just writing boring webpages by synthesizing with hiccup
17:14	emaczen	synthesizing?
17:14	avshalom	programmatically generating
17:14	emaczen	avshalom: I'm new to web-development with a little experience with some JS technologies but I do mostly backend work.
17:15	emaczen	I also have some Common Lisp experience
17:15	avshalom	emaczen: i'm not a web maven -- i usually do the brains and back end. so, this is new territory, don't know the web lingo
17:15	emaczen	avshalom: Haha, I guess we are in similar boats then...
17:15	emaczen	But you look like you have the head start :)
17:15	avshalom	emaczen: i would definitely get the "web development with clojure" book/pdf
17:16	emaczen	Sounds like a good idea.
17:16	avshalom	there is also a video series by packt? i think
17:16	emaczen	One quick question for you though.
17:17	avshalom	it's audio is a little crummy, but if you want to get up and going FAST, then it's pretty good
17:17	avshalom	yes?
17:17	emaczen	Inside the home-page function in home.clj -- how do you render the page with hiccup? By default with luminus there is a line of code: (layout/render "app.html" ...
17:18	emaczen	This renders the HTML/Selmer template.
17:18	avshalom	dunno, i don't use selmer (yet)
17:18	emaczen	avshalom: I wish to use hiccup
17:19	avshalom	just something like (defroutes "/" [] (home)) i think, with content in home function
17:20	emaczen	Can you link me to those videos by pakt?
17:20	emaczen	I didn't find anything on goolge
17:20	emaczen	ahh, I think I found it
17:20	emaczen	I'm getting antzy I guess...
17:20	avshalom	https://www.packtpub.com/web-development/building-web-applications-clojure-video
17:20	emaczen	Thanks!
17:20	avshalom	yeah, its $35 well spent.
17:21	avshalom	(defn home [] (layout/common [:h1 "Doo Dah"]))
17:23	emaczen	does web-dev with clojure use hiccup for their layouts?
17:23	emaczen	I have played with hiccup inside selmer actually
17:23	emaczen	Wait
17:23	avshalom	iirc, it does both
17:23	emaczen	I mean, I have loaded some selmer templates, and then on top of that used some hiccup
17:26	avshalom	i really want that book on reactive functional programming. i guess i have to wait another month....
17:27	avshalom	i came from a Fortran / Scientific programming background, and all this stuff is radically different, but i think that i know that i want to do it
17:27	avshalom	some book on idioms for concurrent programming
17:28	avshalom	(but in clojure, because i'm not good at clojure or concurrent programming)
17:28	emaczen	avshalom: How much do you know about Lisp dialects?
17:28	avshalom	emaczen: i can do small stuff in elisp
17:29	emaczen	avshalom: Do you know how to use lisp macros?
17:29	avshalom	emaczen: but elisp is not practical enough for "day job" stuff. clojure is practical, though unfortunately, so much maths code is in C and Fortran
17:29	emaczen	avshalom: Maxima is written in Common Lisp
17:29	emaczen	Clojure is influenced by Common Lisp
17:29	avshalom	emaczen: i know the rudiments of Lisp Macros, but i haven't found a case where i would say "oh, i gotta have a macro instead of a function"
17:30	emaczen	avshalom: I'm new to this as well but I found a pretty cool use case the other day.
17:30	AeroNotix	emaczen: one of the things I really like about Clojure is how un-Common Lisp it is.
17:30	AeroNotix	originally Clojure was implemented in CL but Clojure is decidedly not anything at all much like Common Lisp
17:30	AeroNotix	aside from being, you know, a Lisp.
17:31	avshalom	emaczen: in fact i came to Lisp through Mathematica (don't shoot, i know mma is not a lisp)
17:31	emaczen	AeroNotix: I don't really know details, but from the languages I have played with, it is most similar to common lisp.
17:31	AeroNotix	emaczen: in what way?
17:31	avshalom	completeness?
17:32	AeroNotix	Oh right we're just making things up. Gotcha.
17:32	emaczen	AeroNotix: multimethods
17:32	emaczen	generic funciton model instead of message passing mod
17:32	emaczen	model*
17:32	emaczen	and it is a lisp dialect, where every other language I know is not.
17:32	AeroNotix	emaczen: multimethods aren't at all like CLOS.\
17:32	emaczen	CLOS has multimethods
17:33	emaczen	I have not used another PL that uses the generic function model
17:33	AeroNotix	Sure, but it's much richer and actually is a core language feature, rather than being altogether "meh" in Clojure.
17:33	emaczen	If you know a little CL, I think it is a good place to start drawing connections
17:34	emaczen	Avshalom: Anyway, the use case for macros that I found interesting/fun was a tiny SQL like manipulation for an inefficient list of lists data-table implementation
17:34	AeroNotix	and you only have single dispatch in Clojure.
17:35	m1dnight_	guys, currently I have a printer function (def print [sender & msgs] ..) that I call like (print "me" "foo" "bar")
17:35	emaczen	Avshalom: So I defined 'select' and 'where' as "library" functions and then used them in a macro that would let me type something like: (select (column1 column2) from table where [expressions are true]
17:35	m1dnight_	but now I want to add a second function that takes multiple lists that represent a single line (multithreaded and all that)
17:36	m1dnight_	I'm guessing it's not possible since [sender & msgs] will match anything, right?
17:36	avshalom	emaczen: that's cool
17:36	avshalom	emaczen: that's another book i want, the one on clojure macros
17:37	avshalom	emaczen: maybe one day when i am a clojure stud, i will write my own dsl
17:37	emaczen	avshalom: if you are interested in macros, I would recommend On Lisp by Paul Graham
17:37	avshalom	or not, because i'm having a blast making money with functions ;-)
17:37	emaczen	avshalom: Yeah, I should spend more time trying to make some money than doing random lispy things :)
17:38	AeroNotix	On Lisp is one of the only very detailed texts on macros. It gets another +1 from me.
17:38	avshalom	emaczen: i will say that i haven't had this much "fun" in years. clojure has been fun!!!!
17:39	emaczen	avshalom: Oh yeah! All Lisp programming is usually fun!
17:39	avshalom	emaczen: and remarkably Mathematica-like. i feel that i can transfer a lot of experience into clojure, and bosses will be satistfied by JVM language
17:39	avshalom	emaczen: i love using clojure, and watching my 40-core machine shoot to 100% usage.
17:39	AeroNotix	you develop on a 40-core machine?
17:40	avshalom	yeah
17:40	emaczen	I'm jealous!
17:40	avshalom	it's a fucking beast
17:40	avshalom	250 gig of ram, 200 terabytes of storage
17:40	emaczen	avshalom: I guess you are doing some machine learning / statistics?
17:40	avshalom	(and i have three of them)
17:40	emaczen	With Big Data?
17:40	avshalom	emaczen: yeah
17:40	AeroNotix	Which processor is that?
17:40	avshalom	oh, i dunno. xeon or something
17:41	avshalom	i also use an ibm p595
17:41	AeroNotix	haha
17:41	AeroNotix	ok
17:41	AeroNotix	o7
17:41	avshalom	we're getting a new one soon, just that it takes a bit of time to buy a $10 million dollar machine.
17:41	AeroNotix	Roger.
17:41	AeroNotix	I'm writing this all down.
17:43	avshalom	emaczen: i'm in the post-big data / machine learning world
17:43	AeroNotix	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnD_51Vvi1I
17:43	avshalom	emaczen: i've gone back to smarter/better models that actually fit the problem
17:43	emaczen	avshalom: What is the post-big data / machine learning world?
17:43	avshalom	more bayesian statistics and markov chain monte carlo
17:43	emaczen	Ahhh cool! I'm just getting into this world really.
17:44	avshalom	emaczen: i.e. there is no universal algorithm (machine learning) that will solve all problems
17:44	emaczen	I wrote a naive bayes classifier with gaussian and bernoulli implementations
17:44	emaczen	Mostly as a Common Lisp exercise
17:44	avshalom	naive bayes is actually pretty good imo. and a good framework to develop sophisticated models.
17:45	avshalom	yeah, recur :-)
17:45	m1dnight_	is there a thing like "unlist"?
17:45	m1dnight_	I want to pass a list of elements as multiple arguments to a function but i'm not sure how
17:45	m1dnight_	I know I've done it before but i can't remember
17:45	avshalom	emaczen: talk to you later, maybe here or on #emacs. i need to go yell at the kids
17:46	avshalom	take care AeroNotix, i will make you an account once the power 8 arrives
17:46	AeroNotix	m1dnight_: apply
17:46	AeroNotix	avshalom: An elephant you say?
17:46	avshalom	:-)
17:46	AeroNotix	m1dnight_: ,(apply + [1 2 3 4])
17:46	AeroNotix	,(apply + [1 2 3 4])
17:46	m1dnight_	yea, but what if + takes more than 1 argument?
17:46	clojurebot	10
17:46	emaczen	avshalom: haha sounds good, cya later
17:46	m1dnight_	the signature is (def printer [sender & msgs] ..)
17:47	AeroNotix	m1dnight_: TIAS
17:47	AeroNotix	,(doc apply)
17:47	clojurebot	"([f args] [f x args] [f x y args] [f x y z args] [f a b c d ...]); Applies fn f to the argument list formed by prepending intervening arguments to args."
17:48	m1dnight_	ohhhh
17:48	m1dnight_	(I had to google TIAS, btw)
17:48	AeroNotix	m1dnight_: :)
17:50	mr_rm	did (fn) always allow you to give it a name, like: (fn foo [_] 42) ?
17:51	Bronsa	mr_rm: yes
17:52	AeroNotix	the alternative is maddening
17:52	mr_rm	Bronsa: ok thanks. it took me quite a while to realize that! i always thought it was purely anonymous and was doing stuff like (let [foo (fn [_] ...)] ...)
17:52	AeroNotix	mr_rm: there's let-fn
17:53	AeroNotix	sorry letfn
17:53	mr_rm	AeroNotix: yes, i knew about that. just a stupid example
17:53	AeroNotix	stoopid example
17:53	mr_rm	heh
17:56	m1dnight_	okay I have one more question, if you guys dont mind. (I have googled zip, merge, merge with, zip with, concat with..) but I would like to merge sequences with a value
17:57	m1dnight_	like (merge-with [1 2 3] [4 5 6] [-1]) --> [1 2 3 -1 4 5 6]) ?
17:58	AeroNotix	m1dnight_: flatten
17:58	AeroNotix	but
17:58	AeroNotix	,flatten
17:58	AeroNotix	dammit
17:58	clojurebot	#<core$flatten clojure.core$flatten@99a9fc5>
17:58	AeroNotix	mr_rm: concat
17:58	AeroNotix	~flatten
17:58	clojurebot	flatten is rarely the right answer. Suppose you need to use a list as your "base type", for example. Usually you only want to flatten a single level, and in that case you're better off with concat. Or, better still, use mapcat to produce a sequence that's shaped right to begin with.
17:58	AeroNotix	m1dnight_: ^^
17:59	AeroNotix	m1dnight_: that has had some sorting applied, what's the sort there?
17:59	m1dnight_	well, the actual use case is the following: I want to call (debug-msg sendername ["line" " one"] ["line " "two"])
18:00	AeroNotix	and?
18:00	m1dnight_	Since this debugging function is needed for the sake of printing multiline without other threads interleaving
18:00	m1dnight_	I need to put it in a single print statement
18:00	m1dnight_	so no particular sort, the elements arent even numbers
18:00	AeroNotix	You're talking about printing to the terminal?
18:00	m1dnight_	yes
18:00	AeroNotix	Do you care about logging?
18:01	m1dnight_	it's more debug logging :p
18:01	AeroNotix	ah
18:01	m1dnight_	but I have some "state" I need to print that takes up multiple lines
18:01	AeroNotix	I get you
18:01	AeroNotix	use concat
18:01	m1dnight_	and I have multiple threads spitting their state and it gets messy real quick :>
18:02	AeroNotix	this is why when you care about stuff, use a proper logging joint.
18:03	AeroNotix	e.g. we use logstash using tools.logging
18:03	AeroNotix	and it exports the thread it was running on, so you can drill down into your logs with the thread ID
18:03	m1dnight_	ah, ill have to check that out then )
18:03	m1dnight_	thanks for the info, AeroNotix
18:05	AeroNotix	m1dnight_: e.g. http://i.imgur.com/q6lFGDN.png
18:12	AeroNotix	What're some cool Clojure open-source projects people are interested in?
19:04	seangrove	$seen bhauman
19:04	lazybot	bhauman was last seen quittingQuit: bhauman 2 hours and 54 minutes ago.
20:27	gfredericks	,'welp
20:27	clojurebot	welp
20:50	pcn	Is this the right forum to ask cider questions?
20:51	pcn	Ah, never mind, I see it now
20:53	justin_smith	,'narp
20:53	clojurebot	narp
20:58	gfredericks	,'blelk
20:58	clojurebot	blelk
21:22	brainproxy	happy day for clj devs who are fans of devdocs
21:22	brainproxy	http://devdocs.io/clojure/
21:23	arrdem	cool!
21:40	gfredericks	pop quiz: what's the difference between (def x) and (declare x)?
21:41	justin_smith	oh, wow, that's tricky. def adds metadata that declare doesn't?
21:42	gfredericks	that's basically the exact opposite of the right answer
21:42	justin_smith	oh, haha
21:42	justin_smith	-1 point for me then
21:43	gfredericks	declare is actually just a macro that adds ^:declared
21:43	gfredericks	oh also it can take multiple symbols
22:03	cyy	Hello everybody! I have a question about the multitask on the same JVM. When I type the following three commands in different terminals: "lein ring server" "lein cljsbuild auto" "lein tramponline cljsbuild repl-listen" dose Clojure will setup three different JVMs to execute these commands? If Clojure will do this, could I have a way to force them share the same JVM to execute these task? I found that after executeing these commands my
22:04	cyy	--- I found that after executeing these commands my computer memory has been nearly used up, so I want to know whether there is any way to decrease the memory consumption. Thanks!
22:04	justin_smith	cyy: this is lein specific. Check out the "lein pdo" plugin
22:05	justin_smith	pdo will make it do parallel lein tasks in one instance
22:06	arrdem	(inc justin_smith)
22:06	lazybot	⇒ 188
22:06	arrdem	christ you've been busy
22:07	justin_smith	heh
23:59	ddellacosta	what are folks doing for sharing namespaces for testing utilities between different projects?
23:59	ddellacosta	we've got some duplicated code now, but it's also a major pain in the butt to have a separate namespace for testing utility libs