#clojure – 2015-02-07

2015-02-07

00:00	sdegutis	Super portable.
00:00	Blake1	But if I get the core right I could move it to different Clojure VMs and see ... stuff.
00:00	sdegutis	I'm currently investigating PureScript.
00:02	Blake1	Int'resting. I thought I would see what untyping this code could do for it.
00:02	sdegutis	Sure go for it.
00:04	Blake1	For example, one of my utility classes was an integer array, where you didn't have to know the size of the integer in advance. Heh.
00:04	Blake1	Which strikes me as sort of funny now.
00:06	sdegutis	Huh. I found where clrnd gone to (from #clojure): http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/2mr7ks/im_debating_between_haskell_and_clojure_xpost/
00:12	Blake1	Reddit?
00:12	Blake1	That's...huh.
00:13	Blake1	Oh, that's interesting...wasn't someone here saying Haskell was rife with bad decisions that made it dangerous to use? Or was that Scheme?
00:13	justin_smith	sdegutis: almost forgot, there is also F#
00:14	sdegutis	Blake1: I imagine that was Scheme.
00:14	sdegutis	justin_smith: lol, someone in #ocaml said the exact same thing almost at the exact same time
00:15	Blake1	So, if I do this thing in Clojure, am I going to get in trouble when it comes to the bit/byte twiddling stuff? Will I have to go into Java?
00:15	justin_smith	Blake1: you can bit-twiddle in pure clojure
00:16	justin_smith	,(bit-or 7 (bit-shift-left 42 1))
00:16	clojurebot	87
00:17	Blake1	justin_smith: My system uses a lot of byte-arrays, and treats them as lists of bits. Another thing is I load a byte array and treat it as a 1, 2, 4 or 8 byte integer array, depending on certain meta-data.
00:18	justin_smith	Blake1: you can use ByteBuffer for that
00:20	Blake1	justin_smith: Cool...well, except for being Java. =P (Which isn't really a problem but pure would be nice. OTOH, if I'm going down to the byte level, impure is...likely.)
00:21	tomjack	have you seen ztellman's gloss?
00:22	justin_smith	,,(.getDouble (java.nio.ByteBuffer/wrap (byte-array [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8]) 0 8))
00:22	clojurebot	8.20788039913184E-304
00:22	Blake1	Is that a personal question?
00:22	justin_smith	Blake1: the above treats 8 8 bit bytes as one 64 bit double
00:24	justin_smith	as you might imagine, there are also .getShort, .getInt, .getLong etc. etc. etc.
00:24	justin_smith	also the above is 100% free of mutation
00:24	Blake1	justin_smith: Cool. I feel like this should end up being a lot less code in Clojure than Pascal.
00:25	justin_smith	well .getDouble does advance a read pointer but hey that doesn't escape scope at all :)
00:25	Blake1	tomjack: Thanks for the gloss tip. I'm not doing anything with structures. Everything is the same simple physical shape.
00:25	tomjack	is e.g. the metadata for the integer size encoded in the bytes?
00:26	Blake1	tomjack: Actually, no...it's in the filename. =)
00:26	justin_smith	Blake1: from everything you described so far, you can probably do it all with the bitwise ops plus some very local ByteBuffers that stay local enough for the mutation not to leak (that's why I demonstrated the offset / length args to the constructor)
00:27	tomjack	ah, then your usage of gloss would be even more minimal than I thought. but I think you could avoid touching byte-centric java APIs?
00:27	Blake1	tomjack: Ah...okay, yeah, I'll keep that in mind. It'd be cool to try this out on various VMs.
00:27	justin_smith	tomjack: when your domain is bytes, how is byte-centric API a disadvantage?
00:28	tomjack	might not be
00:28	Blake1	justin_smith: Not the byte-centric API, the Java API.
00:28	tomjack	if I just want to parse an array of integers which is represented weirdly and move on, I'd rather not touch a byte-centric API, though
00:28	Blake1	justin_smith: Well, this code was very functional to begin with, now that I look at it. Which is kind of cool. Everything was as non-mutating as I could make it in Object Pascal.
00:30	justin_smith	Blake1: and as I mentioned, other than the read-pointer state (avoided by using the offset / size args) ByteBuffer is not mutating
00:31	Blake1	justin_smith: Cool. I'll give it a try.
00:32	tomjack	ah, I wasn't reading your messages justin_smith, only Blake1's. that looks better than I assumed ByteBuffer would be
00:32	justin_smith	tomjack: it's quite direct, you hand it the bytes, and ask for a given type, and there it is
00:32	tomjack	(still not as 'nice' as gloss to me, but probably nice enough to make me pause before killing my jvm and adding a dep :))
00:32	justin_smith	heh
00:33	justin_smith	of course you still might end up doing some bitwise ops if you encoding had non-power-of-two sizes or something
00:33	Blake1	justin_smith: I could do that for larfs. Compactness and speed was the point of this library, though, so there'd have to be a damn good tradeoff.
00:34	tomjack	huh http://ideolalia.com/gloss/gloss.core-api.html#gloss.core/bit-seq
00:34	justin_smith	Blake1: non-pow-of-2 sizes?
00:35	tomjack	I expected to find that gloss couldn't handle that
00:35	Blake1	tomjack: Oh, lol, no! This is for database stuff.
00:35	Blake1	justin_smith: Yeah.
00:35	Blake1	This is a DBMS system I developed a few years back. It's sort of like Amazon Redshift.
00:36	Blake1	This is interesting http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/2mr7ks/im_debating_between_haskell_and_clojure_xpost/
00:36	Blake1	sdegutis: Pointed to it.
00:36	sdegutis	Oh.
00:36	sdegutis	Uh.
00:38	Blake1	sdegutis: lol...sorry? It's interesting, no?
00:38	Blake1	Or am I being naive?
00:39	sdegutis	sure
00:39	justin_smith	he's just lucky he posted it during permitted haskell evangelism hours
00:39	Blake1	hahahah
00:42	Blake1	I'm intrigued by the backlash against dynamic typing I'm seeing these days. I would've figured it was destiny--well, ten years ago or more, I figured it would take over.
00:54	sdegutis	Blake1: static typing with type inference and reasonable polymorphism has all the same benefits of dynamic typing with none of the drawbacks
00:55	sdegutis	Blake1: you can usually write just as little code, worrying just as little about types, and also have assurance that it won't compile if there's a type error, instead of failing at runtime
00:55	sdegutis	Blake1: oh the other hand, Clojure often fails at runtime for me (while I'm doing TDD) which means I have to wait like 20 seconds while my whole test suite runs just to find out I made a simple typo.
00:56	Blake1	sdegutis: Static typing that you, the programmer, don't actually do, then?
00:57	sdegutis	Blake1: static typing simply means your types can be definitely known by looking at your source files, without actually running them
00:57	sdegutis	Blake1: it doesn't mean you actually write the types down in those source files
00:57	sdegutis	Blake1: hence type inference
00:57	sdegutis	Blake1: and yes, writing type names down in source files is annoying; fortunately we don't have to, thanks to type inference
00:59	vas	justin_smith: hey man, thanks for helping me figure out the csrforgery protection stuff. turned out i just needed to change def app to use "wrap-session" and ring does the rest :]]] (def app (wrap-session app-routes site-defaults))
00:59	Blake1	sdegutis: I haven't had any problems with dynamic typing in Clojure, apart from my original feeling of working without a net (when I learned Smalltalk in '92).
00:59	sdegutis	Blake1: welp.
00:59	Blake1	sdegutis: But if you're not stating the type, isn't there still the issue of the compiler inferring a type different from what you meant?
00:59	tomjack	I don't think it has _all_ the same benefits
01:00	sdegutis	tomjack: oh?
01:00	sdegutis	Blake1: that usually doesn't happen
01:00	Blake1	sdegutis: (I ask from ignorance, not having used any tools that did =good= type inference.)
01:01	sdegutis	Blake1: meh, I often end up documenting the argument/return types in my Clojure apps anyway
01:01	sdegutis	Blake1: so it doesn't hurt me any to add it in function signatures
01:02	tomjack	right, if you want to not worry about types, I don't think you go for Haskell :)
01:03	Blake1	sdegutis: Well, I need to play with it, 'cause I'm not getting it. Does core.typed do inference?
01:03	Blake1	tomjack: But it's so much better, apparently. =P
01:04	sdegutis	Blake1: I never said it's better
01:05	Blake1	sdegutis: Oh! No, I didn't mean you! I was talking about that reddit page.
01:05	sdegutis	Oh.
01:05	sdegutis	Anyway.
01:05	tomjack	sdegutis: basically it's missing the (possible) advantage of "not having to understand how to work with a static type system", I think?
01:06	sdegutis	tomjack: I'd argue that's not a thing in the first place
01:07	sdegutis	tomjack: working with a static type system, in comparison to working with a dynamic type system, just means knowing to look for errors in the console instead of in backtraces
01:07	sdegutis	tomjack: either way, you're still working with a type system, and type errors will surface somewhere
01:07	tomjack	yes, understanding the meanings of those errors, and making the requisite changes, is what I meant by "working with a static type system"
01:08	sdegutis	tomjack: sure, but using that definition, there's a huge variance in static type systems
01:08	sdegutis	tomjack: some give horrible errors, some give extremely good ones
01:08	tomjack	but regardless, I need to understand a type system, no?
01:09	sdegutis	tomjack: Not any more than you do with a dynamic type system.
01:09	sdegutis	dynamic system: "error: tried to call method "append" on a string object"
01:10	sdegutis	static system: "error: no method "append" on a string object"
01:10	tomjack	anyway, it's moot to me, because I _do_ want to worry about types, and want something better than Haskell. just confabulating about why I seem to prefer Clojure to Haskell, I guess
01:10	sdegutis	tomjack: In what way do you want something better than Haskell? Also, in what way aren't you satisfied with Clojure?
01:11	tomjack	I want total dependently typed, and Clojure isn't
01:11	tomjack	though given the choice between Haskell and Clojure (which I am), I seem to choose Clojure for some reason.. hmm
01:11	Blake1	dependently typed?
01:12	sdegutis	tomjack: I do too, to be honest.
01:12	sdegutis	tomjack: re: choosing Clojure
01:12	tomjack	Blake1: my personal confabulation is that haskell's type system is not expressive enough (too restrictive), and Clojure stays out of my way. dependent types are more expressive
01:13	sdegutis	tomjack: that said, I really want to find a new favorite language that isn't tied to the JVM, also a language that's statically typed, which is why I'm not satisfied with Clojure
01:13	tomjack	a Clojuresque LISP, maybe?
01:13	pdk	c++ meets both criteria!
01:14	justin_smith	sdegutis: I don't get why you'd come here looking for it
01:14	sdegutis	justin_smith: I don't think I was?
01:14	sdegutis	justin_smith: oh yeah I totally was, now I remember
01:15	sdegutis	justin_smith: I came here for that cuz when people like you and technomancy are here, I get good answers ;)
01:15	justin_smith	hehe
01:15	sdegutis	(his answer is "OCaml")
01:15	Jaood	tomjack: what language with the dependent types have you use? idris?
01:16	Jaood	why did techomancy left #clojure?
01:16	Jaood	he seems to be in the network
01:16	tomjack	Jaood: not yet. I want a LISP so it's mostly Clojure for me for now
01:27	tomjack	also I want good set/map/vector builtin data structures with literal syntax... :(
01:33	tomjack	the set and map API should only optionally assume = is decidable for the key type. if it's not, count should be impossible, but one should at least be able to get an upper bound on the number of elements. that bound should be 1 for the set of functions #{(fn [x] x) (fn [y] y) identity}, and probably 2 for #{#(+ %1 %2) #(+ %2 %1)} (though the count of that is actually 1). seq shouldn't work unless you prove that your reduction over the
01:33	tomjack	seq is idempotent... etc
01:33	tomjack	this is maybe why I don't use Haskell, I think :)
01:38	Blake1	tomjack: What's the advantage of built-ins here? I thought the point (again, I'm a naif) here, at least in part, is that you can add that stuff in yourself.
01:56	tomjack	well, e.g. {:foo 1 :bar 2} should be in the syntax, and you shouldn't be able to magically define new syntax like {k v ...}
01:57	tomjack	you could maybe do like Agda and allow the user to bind a datatype with certain operations to that syntax, but that's a mess
01:58	tomjack	if you have two Agda libraries which bind the same builtin syntax to different data structures, you're, uh, gonna have a bad time
01:58	tomjack	it's the "batteries-included" principle seen in Clojure and EDN I guess
01:59	Blake1	Sorta the same issue in any language where "you can always roll your own!"
02:03	dagda1_	I've been trying to solve this project euler problem https://www.hackerrank.com/contests/projecteuler/challenges/euler007 to display the nth prime number, I've tried multiple versions and they all work but they time out
02:04	dagda1_	here is my latest which is still too slow https://gist.github.com/dagda1/98caf10b195adda97f27
02:18	Blake1	Jaood: I believe he's doing charity work.
04:24	dysfun	Jaood, Blake1: yes, he's off doing charity work in africa. he wrote a blog post about it recently
04:55	kir	Question about (doc ) : Is there some way to replace the docs with my own notes, without modifying src - explanations provided seem arcane to me?
04:56	dysfun	no, but you can fake it with an atom of alternative docs and a new function that maps one to the other
04:57	dysfun	but it's probably not the most useful thing
04:57	dysfun	better to keep a snippets file somewhere to demonstrate how to do things you currently find confusing
04:57	dysfun	and to ask questions of course
04:58	dysfun	the docs are a little...behind where they should be right now
04:58	dysfun	there are some great alternative resources on the internet
04:58	kir	dysfun : I have extensive notes, but those functions (doc ), (find-doc ) are very convenient in the REPL
04:59	dysfun	well you could start with a map inside an atom
04:59	dysfun	if you want the same calling convention as doc, it'll have to be a macro
05:00	kir	could you provide a brief example please?
05:01	dysfun	,(def my-docs (atom {}))
05:01	clojurebot	#'sandbox/my-docs
05:02	kir	I get the idea, and I'll need to load that map on reloading of the REPL
05:02	kir	thx
05:03	dysfun	ah well i was going to continue but since you get the idea :)
05:03	dysfun	the doc things come from an nrepl middleware fyi
05:03	dysfun	so you can use the same thing to load yours
05:04	kir	great
05:04	dysfun	just remember to map fully qualified symbols as the key
05:04	dysfun	because otherwise you won't be able to use it without loading all the namespaces
05:05	kir	makes sence, thx.
05:06	dysfun	and hence why it should be a macro rather than a fn, otherwise you'll have to call it like (my-doc 'my-fn)
05:07	dysfun	you'll need to do some magic to map symbols to the fully qualified form
05:08	kir	I enjoy challenges/magic :)
05:09	dysfun	likewise, although i seem to have bitten off a bit too much magic to chew recently
05:10	dysfun	the clojure cheatsheet contains most of the functions you'll need though so it should be pretty straightforward
05:22	dysfun	yw
07:52	justin_smith	,({+ "adds all the args"} +) ; dysfun: without a macro
07:52	clojurebot	"adds all the args"
07:57	justin_smith	,(do (alter-meta! #'+ assoc-in [:doc] "adds all the args") (doc +))
07:57	clojurebot	"([] [x] [x y] [x y & more]); adds all the args"
07:57	justin_smith	^^ you can totally replace the doc strings
07:58	justin_smith	dysfun: also, technomancy isn't in Africa, he's in Thailand
08:02	luxbock	does technomancy still use IRC? I think he might be living in the same city as I do
08:09	hyPiRion	luxbock: yeah, but he recently moved, so he's probably a bit busy right now
09:10	LauJensen	/msg LauJensen test from LT
09:10	LauJensen	...
09:12	Thingamagik	From Clojure I insert like SET dt = "2015-04-01". Then I get the line "select .... where dt="2015-04-01" and get the same line back with all values intact, except dt which is now "2015-03-31". In SQL its type DATE. Any idea why?
09:14	gfredericks	Thingamagik: smells like time zones
09:14	justin_smith	gfredericks: yeah, that was my first thought too
09:16	expez	repl fails to start, lein deps :tree suggests over 100 exclusions, what's the best way to proceed?
09:16	justin_smith	expez: don't use so many deps?
09:17	justin_smith	(just being glib - I have no idea)
09:18	expez	between the project and the tooling the transitive dependencies a significant fraction of all code ever written for the jvm
09:20	LauJensen	gfredericks, Timezones?
09:21	justin_smith	LauJensen: typically a date is stored as a timestamp for midnight that day
09:21	LauJensen	Ah, so its getting pushed one hour?
09:21	LauJensen	Best way to remedy?
09:22	justin_smith	LauJensen: bad timezone code can erroneously push the timestamp onto the wrong date
09:22	justin_smith	LauJensen: is the db local to your machine?
09:22	LauJensen	Yes
09:24	justin_smith	I was going to suggest making sure the server and host time zones and clocks were set up properly, but everything being on the same machine rules that out
09:55	imanc_	is it possible to use destructuring in a recur func, or is it limited to let/fn etc.
09:56	justin_smith	imanc_: you mean loop? you can destructure loop bindings
09:56	csd_	How can I make CIDER automatically load my test namespaces when I load a project?
09:56	imanc_	I actually want to destructure in the recur bit - but perhaps i'm thinking about it wrong and need an inner (let) block or something
09:57	justin_smith	imanc_: wat
09:57	justin_smith	it makes no sense to destructure the recur call - there is no way that would be helpful
09:57	justin_smith	destructuring is for the binding vector
09:58	justin_smith	you don't need a let block, you need the destructuring to happen where the bindings are
09:58	justin_smith	,(loop [[a & r] (range)] (if (= a 4) (first r) (recur (rest r))))
09:58	clojurebot	5
09:58	imanc_	yeh, OK makes sense. Basically I have a func that returns a list of two lists. and I need to input each list back into recur, but I realise I can use (let) inside the loop to destructure the the results into two var to pass back into ercur
09:59	imanc_	hmm
09:59	justin_smith	imanc_: put the destructuring where the bindings happen (in the arg list of the function in this case)
10:00	justin_smith	,((fn [[a & r]] (if (= a 4) (first r) (recur (rest r))) (range))
10:00	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
10:00	justin_smith	oops
10:01	justin_smith	,((fn [[a & r]] (if (= a 4) (first r) (recur (rest r)))) (range))
10:01	clojurebot	5
10:02	csd_	justin_smith-- do you know if it's possible to have cider load a project's tests when doing cider-jack-in? right now i have to manually load each test clj
10:03	justin_smith	csd_: cider should have a command for that - have you tried emacs' apropos command?
10:04	csd_	i'm looking through the commands listed in the github docs-- they all assume the tests are already loaded into the repl
10:04	csd_	figured there might just be something i need to put in my project.clj
10:06	justin_smith	csd_: this is close, but not quite https://github.com/clojure-emacs/cider/blob/master/cider-test.el#L438
10:07	justin_smith	it just runs tests for the current context
10:08	csd_	do you use cider yourself?
10:08	justin_smith	csd_: I did for a while, I gave up on it and just use inferior-lisp now
10:08	csd_	why did you give up on it?
10:08	justin_smith	too frequent breakage
10:09	justin_smith	I'd rather have fewer features
10:09	csd_	i would be a lot less effective using inferior lisp
10:09	justin_smith	rather than updates making things not work
10:09	justin_smith	OK
10:09	justin_smith	I manage alright
10:10	pandeiro	there's no existing feature expression support in master currently right?
10:10	justin_smith	pandeiro: no, it's in the 1.7 alphas
10:10	justin_smith	pandeiro: though cljx is a lein lib
10:11	pandeiro	justin_smith: sorry - that means what? i still need to use cljx?
10:11	justin_smith	pandeiro: or use the alphas
10:11	pandeiro	justin_smith: alphas are fine! trying to find a link to how to enable it
10:12	julianleviston	ooh does that mean stuart might be reworking component for cljs support?
10:12	justin_smith	pandeiro: http://mvnrepository.com/artifact/org.clojure versions are listed here
10:13	pandeiro	justin_smith: thanks, i already am working off alpha5 in my project
10:13	justin_smith	oh, I misunderstood
10:13	pandeiro	julianleviston: no idea but there's a cljs port
10:13	pandeiro	justin_smith: i found this https://github.com/levand/fx-hello-world -- looks like it might be what i need
10:13	pandeiro	i just don't get what i have to do, exactly :)
10:14	justin_smith	got it
10:14	julianleviston	pandeiro: yeah, I did one.
10:14	pandeiro	julianleviston: ah is that yours? sorry
10:14	julianleviston	pandeiro: prolly not the one you’re thinking of...
10:14	julianleviston	i just forked it
10:14	justin_smith	pandeiro: ahh there's a modified leiningen to work with the feature expressions
10:14	pandeiro	julianleviston: there are several yeah, i noticed
10:14	pandeiro	justin_smith: !!!
10:14	pandeiro	that is the info i was after -- so it doesn't work w/ regular lein?
10:15	justin_smith	pandeiro: it's listed on the page you linked
10:15	julianleviston	are feature expressions even stable yet?
10:15	julianleviston	I guess so coz there’s a diff… http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1424
10:15	justin_smith	they are in the alphas :P - you need a forked lein for lein test or aot to work with feature expressions
10:16	julianleviston	seems to still be heavily under dev.
10:16	julianleviston	seems a bit broken to me.
10:17	julianleviston	I don’t think #+cljs is a feature, is it? lol.
10:17	justin_smith	julianleviston: that's the feature expression syntax
10:17	julianleviston	justin_smith: yeah, but cljs is not a feature, it’s a language.
10:18	pandeiro	julianleviston: guessing the terminology came from common lisp
10:18	julianleviston	pandeiro: yep.
10:18	pandeiro	like interns
10:18	justin_smith	julianleviston: feel free to put in a pr to change them to "semantics expressions"
10:18	julianleviston	justin_smith: that’s a bit broken too
10:18	pandeiro	justin_smith: 'awesome tags'
10:18	julianleviston	justin_smith: language markers would make more sense
10:18	julianleviston	haha :)
10:19	justin_smith	"super pedantic about semantics expressions"
10:21	julianleviston	kind of thought the difference mattered, actually.
10:21	julianleviston	all good, tho. :)
10:21	justin_smith	julianleviston: I suggested "semantics expressions" as a joke, and you set me up to escalate the joke, sorry :)
10:22	julianleviston	justin_smith: oh it was a joke? i didn’t realise sorry :)
10:22	pandeiro	do you guys have a 'feature expressions' branch in your clojure repo?
10:22	justin_smith	the idea being that the expressions describe sementics, and then you are questioning the semantics themeselves etc.
10:22	justin_smith	I found that funny in an odd way
10:23	julianleviston	justin_smith: but the expressions don’t describe the semantics… they name the target (or selected) language. I guess that’s why I missed the joke.
10:24	justin_smith	julianleviston: they aren't just for language switching
10:24	julianleviston	justin_smith: oh?
10:24	justin_smith	julianleviston: the examples also switch code for prod / dev
10:24	justin_smith	for example
10:24	julianleviston	justin_smith: ew.
10:25	julianleviston	justin_smith: really? environment switching? guh that seems like a terrible thing to do
10:25	justin_smith	julianleviston: you list an arbitrary set of "features" as a system property, and that guides the tags turning forms on / off
10:25	julianleviston	justin_smith: ah ok… that might end up being sane.
10:25	julianleviston	justin_smith: I’d be pretty suprised if it wasn’t given who was working on it...
10:26	justin_smith	so anyway, one special case is turning off lines of code that don't work in clj-java/ cljs/ clj-clr, but that is not their only usage
10:26	julianleviston	justin_smith: seems a little open to abuse tho… but time will tell I guess.
10:26	justin_smith	julianleviston: we have so many features that are open to abuse, but we also have good community standards
10:27	julianleviston	justin_smith: the standards protect it from abuse. This seems still open to me. Just my opinion tho, really.
10:27	justin_smith	I mean anything in clojure.core (beyond the reader macros) can be pretty freely mutated and replaced at runtime. But we don't do that, because we aren't idiots.
10:27	justin_smith	the standards are informal
10:28	julianleviston	justin_smith: sure. However here it would seem that people are going to use this by putting runtim selection info in it, which doesn’t seem like it has a very long view of the fture in mind.
10:28	justin_smith	it's trivial to access the underlying array of a persistent vector and mutate it, but once again, we are smart enough to know not to do it.
10:28	julianleviston	runtime selection as in #+cljs / #+clj
10:29	julianleviston	justin_smith: having overloadable symbols/forms for each language would make more sense to me.
10:30	julianleviston	justin_smith: where you can overload on the language.
10:30	julianleviston	justin_smith: but I haven’t been in the hammock… :)
10:30	justin_smith	julianleviston: some things just make sense in cljs but not clj, and to some degree visa-versa
10:30	julianleviston	justin_smith: yeah, I agree…
10:31	julianleviston	justin_smith: that’s in accord with what I reckon would be better.
10:31	justin_smith	julianleviston: I mean, do we replace our current straightforward jvm interop with an abstraction that is guaranteed to work on any backend? that seems foolish
10:31	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
10:32	justin_smith	julianleviston: though if that's the sort of urge for abstraction one wants, Haskell and friends do aim for that
10:32	julianleviston	justin_smith: mmm
10:33	julianleviston	oh well, it’s night from me. :)
10:33	julianleviston	thanks for the chat
10:33	julianleviston	as always.
10:33	justin_smith	np
10:43	gfredericks	anybody know an easy way to create a bmp/png file from scratch? like specifying each pixel?
10:44	TEttinger	gfredericks: I don't know of any particularly easy ways on their own. AWT has setpixel and you can save a Graphics to a png or bmp
10:45	TEttinger	setPixel is extremely slow compared to drawing other textures, plus it's software rendered
10:45	justin_smith	gfredericks: setting pixels in png is tricky because it's a compressed format
10:45	gfredericks	justin_smith: sure if I wrote something by hand I'd do bmp
10:46	justin_smith	gfredericks: but you can use the java awt image classes to get the png into an array, and set the pixels followed by exporting again
10:46	justin_smith	but nothing that isn't datamosh is going to edit a png in place without an extraction/ recompression
10:46	gfredericks	sounds likely easier than figuring out the dang bmp header
10:46	TEttinger	I used to use a method in C# that drew a 4x4 pixel texture about 8000 times per sprite I was making. it was very slow. now I write to a byte buffer, and then slap that directly into memory using the Marshal class in C#. which only works because .NET has direct memory
10:46	justin_smith	gfredericks: heh, yeah
10:48	ffwacom	Sup fuckers
11:10	hyPiRion	,(let [a (atom 0) inc! #(swap! a inc)] `#{~(inc!) ~(inc!)})
11:10	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Duplicate key: (clojure.core/unquote (inc!))>
11:10	hyPiRion	my life is shattered
11:11	hyPiRion	Well, I guess I didn't even need to syntax-quote that to show the problem.
11:23	gfredericks	hyPiRion: man your life must've been super fragile
11:28	hyPiRion	gfredericks: I realised it's possible to bypass the problem, so I am fine now
11:29	hyPiRion	,`#{~(+ 2 3) ~(+ 3 2)}
11:29	clojurebot	#{5}
11:29	hyPiRion	eventually wrap some identities.
11:29	justin_smith	,(let [n 0] #{n (do n)})
11:29	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Duplicate key: 0>
11:30	justin_smith	err, OK
11:30	justin_smith	,(let [n 0] `#{~n ~(do n)})
11:30	clojurebot	#{0}
11:30	hyPiRion	justin_smith: you must syntax-quote it
11:30	justin_smith	right
11:30	hyPiRion	,'`#{}
11:30	clojurebot	(clojure.core/apply clojure.core/hash-set (clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat)))
11:30	justin_smith	the opposite weirdness ;)
11:31	justin_smith	,`#{~@[1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1]}
11:31	clojurebot	#{1}
11:32	hyPiRion	hm
11:32	hyPiRion	,`#{~@(repeat 1)}
11:32	justin_smith	haha
11:32	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
11:33	hyPiRion	oh right, that's not at read time
11:35	hyPiRion	,'#(%1e10)
11:35	clojurebot	#<OutOfMemoryError java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space>
11:35	justin_smith	oh, that's a fun one
11:36	hyPiRion	Hm. I hope I didn't crash the whole thing by doing that :x
11:36	hyPiRion	,1
11:36	clojurebot	1
11:37	justin_smith	I wonder if that is one of those things, where if you made the mistake of catching throwable you'd be worse off than if you just let the exception go to the top
11:43	hyPiRion	hm, maybe
11:43	hyPiRion	depends on how OOM is handled, I guess
11:46	hyPiRion	I am confused
11:46	hyPiRion	,(meta ^nil {})
11:46	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Metadata must be Symbol,Keyword,String or Map>
11:46	hyPiRion	,(meta ^+ {})
11:46	clojurebot	{:tag #<core$_PLUS_ clojure.core$_PLUS_@41996713>}
11:47	hyPiRion	+ is not a symbol, kw, string or map
11:48	justin_smith	hyPiRion: clearly the error message should say IObj
11:48	hyPiRion	I guess it makes sense if you consider it at read time.
11:48	hyPiRion	,(let [x nil] (meta ^x {}))
11:48	clojurebot	{:tag nil}
11:48	hyPiRion	not sure if it's sensible though
11:50	hyPiRion	I guess it should say Class instead of Symbol to make sense.
12:13	gfredericks	,(defn uniformize-random-bits [bits] (->> bits (partition 2) (keep {[0 1] 0 [1 0] 1})))
12:13	clojurebot	#'sandbox/uniformize-random-bits
12:13	gfredericks	^ love how elegant that is
12:23	justin_smith	,({[0 1] [1 0]} '(0 1))
12:23	clojurebot	[1 0]
12:56	creese	In cider, output from println goes to server log but not to the repl. Is this expected behavior?
12:58	justin_smith	creese: this is because you lost the binding of out
12:59	justin_smith	creese: if you had created a future instead of using Thread directly (of if the thing you used did so...) that would be automatic
12:59	justin_smith	but you can make or pass in some binding of out, and use that binding explicitly, to make things print to the repl in cider
13:01	justin_smith	creese: the issue is that when a process is created in emacs, its stdio is attached to a buffer (the one cider uses as the nrepl-output buffer), but cider overrides out with a dynamic binding to make things print into the repl buffer
13:02	justin_smith	creese: but because of how dynamic bindings work, sometimes if you create a new thread, they get the root value of the binding (that stream to print to the hidden by default buffer) instead of the newer thread-local repl binding
13:02	sharms	If I have a file, a.clj which runs fine, and I require it in b.clj, when I run my function it tells me it can't find a variable the function is looking for when called from b.clj
13:03	sharms	I can fix it by adding an additional require statement, but could someone explain to me while having the require statement in a.clj isnt sufficient?
13:03	justin_smith	sharms: because we have namespaces, and that's how namespaces are intended to work
13:03	sharms	justin_smith: I am having trouble googling my way to understanding this - but I dont want to duplicate all of my require statements in b.clj, or is that pragmatic clojure?
13:04	justin_smith	sharms: if you are replicating all the required libs, whey are they even separate namespaces?
13:04	justin_smith	why not put everything in a?
13:04	justin_smith	the idea with a namespace is that you can see explicitly in your clj file where the things you are calling come from
13:04	justin_smith	no magic
13:04	justin_smith	no transitive bindings
13:04	brucehauman	guys I’ve struggled a bit with finding good cljfmt settings for Emacs, link anyone?
13:05	justin_smith	brucehauman: cljfmt is super new, right?
13:05	sharms	justin_smith: a.clj is a model file, and b.clj is my swagger file - so I may have like 20 a.clj's and I would hate to take all of that and put them in a single file
13:05	arrdem	justin_smith: yep.
13:05	sharms	I just want to reference each model type without importing all of the things they already import
13:06	creese	brucehauman: doesn't clojure-mode take care of this?
13:06	brucehauman	justin_smith: I’m really not that sure. But I’m definitely not liking how its indenting
13:06	arrdem	brucehauman: cljfmt is new in the last month or so, I'd be amazed if you can find non-default indentation settings floating around.
13:06	justin_smith	creese: I don't think there has been a clojure-mode release since cljfmt was written
13:06	brucehauman	arrdem: thanks !
13:06	arrdem	brucehauman: clojure-mode has a perfectly good indentation engine as well
13:06	brucehauman	I’m using clojure-mode
13:06	justin_smith	arrdem: well, indentation, but not formatting
13:07	arrdem	justin_smith: betweent the style guide, whitespace-cleanup (for which I'm happy to share my config)
13:07	arrdem	and clojure-mode I don't see what else you need.
13:07	justin_smith	sharms: typically I have between 3 and 10 requires in each namespace. Many of them are the same between namespaces in the same project.
13:07	brucehauman	arrdem: would love to see you config
13:07	t0	What do you think about learning Clojure as a first programming language?
13:08	arrdem	t0: it can be done to be sure but Clojure seems to be a 2nd or 3rd language after some Java.
13:08	justin_smith	arrdem: cljfmt can take a piece of code with any given whitespace weirdness and bad line breaks and reformat, nothing in clojure-mode does that (it just indents) so that's less automatic
13:08	brucehauman	t0: I might suggest Scheme or Racket
13:08	arrdem	justin_smith: sure
13:08	arrdem	t0: racket definitely
13:08	arrdem	<3 raket
13:08	sharms	Let me try a different way: a.clj: (defn testfunc [x] (somelib/somefunc x) works fine. b.clj: (:require [core.a :as shortcut]) (shortcut/testfunc x) -- In this scenario calling it from b.clj wont work without importing somelib in the require statement of b.clj - this is as intended and there isnt a better way?
13:09	justin_smith	what?
13:09	clojurebot	what is your favorite number
13:09	arrdem	brucehauman: on windows right now but lets see if I can get this to you...
13:09	martinklepsch	What's the right way to prevent Leiningen plugin deps from leaking into library consumers? using :scope "test"?
13:09	brucehauman	arrdem: thanks
13:09	justin_smith	sharms: after requiring a from b, you can call testfunc without requiring what a does
13:10	justin_smith	b does not need to reference a's deps at all, unless it explicitly uses them
13:10	sharms	ok thats what I thought, but it appears to be my error - it says 'Unable to resolve symbol:'
13:11	sharms	I must be just overlooking something
13:11	justin_smith	OK
13:11	noonian	I think Clojure is a fine first language to learn, but not as simple as scheme to be sure.
13:11	brucehauman	t0: The reason Clojure isn’t a good first language is because it is hosted in another language. Racket and or JavaScript are better ways to start.
13:11	justin_smith	sharms: do you literally have (:require ...) at the top level of b.clj?
13:11	justin_smith	because that will silently do nothing at all
13:12	justin_smith	,(:require ["whatever" "this" "does" "nothing"])
13:12	sharms	justin_smith: its inside of a (ns some.namepsace (:require ...
13:12	clojurebot	nil
13:12	justin_smith	sharms: oh, OK, just double checking :)
13:12	sharms	No I appreciate the help, clearly I am missing something simple and fundamental
13:13	t0	brucehauman: Thank you. I'm interested in learning programming with a functional language first
13:13	justin_smith	sharms: feel free to share a paste on refheap
13:13	t0	racket seems like a good choice
13:13	gfredericks	justin_smith: wouldn't it crash?
13:13	justin_smith	gfredericks: what would crash?
13:13	justin_smith	ahh, unbound symbols in the vector
13:13	justin_smith	yeah
13:13	gfredericks	justin_smith :require at top level
13:14	arrdem	brucehauman: https://www.refheap.com/97032
13:14	brucehauman	t0: Thats a very enlightened perspective.
13:14	gfredericks	,(:require clojure.string) ;; justin_smith
13:14	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.string, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
13:15	brucehauman	arrdem: thanks :)
13:15	justin_smith	gfredericks: yeah, good point
13:15	arrdem	brucehauman: I also think you need to setq tabs-<something> nil so that indentation is spaces
13:15	sharms	justin_smith: https://www.refheap.com/97033
13:16	sharms	justin_smith: I started learning clojure last week, so I am guessing I am just missing something super simple / core concept
13:16	brucehauman	arrdem: thanks, giving it a try
13:17	sharms	justin_smith: The error itself ends up on the line of (swaggered "businesses" ... which I think I dont need to explicitly import since a.clj already contains it, and I dont reference it directly from b.clj
13:18	arrdem	brucehauman: just to clarify, that's a pasted .dir-locals.el file
13:18	arrdem	brucehauman: you can't just slap that in your .emacs and have it work.
13:18	justin_smith	sharms: either add (:import service-catalog-api.business Business) to the b.clj ns form, or explicitly qualify the package of the Business class
13:18	arrdem	brucehauman: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Directory-Variables.html
13:18	brucehauman	arrdem: thanks for the clarification
13:18	justin_smith	err, I missed some parens, sorry
13:19	justin_smith	sharms: (:import (service-catalog-api.business Business))
13:19	arrdem	brucehauman: just thought I'd save you some confusion before I buzzed off :P
13:19	brucehauman	I really appreciate it
13:19	sharms	justin_smith: ok so even though b.clj has no reference to Business, because I require a.clj and am calling a function from a.clj that references it, I need to require it in b.clj?
13:19	justin_smith	oh, wait...
13:21	justin_smith	I missed that you weren't even referencing Business
13:22	justin_smith	maybe there is something weird going on with how the defroutes* is being expanded in b.clj
13:23	justin_smith	well no, because it should be fully expanded in the first one
13:23	justin_smith	hmm
13:23	sharms	justin_smith: I havent run into this before so my suspicion is swagger magic
13:23	justin_smith	yeah, could be a bug in their macro
13:24	sharms	I just wanted to make sure I understood the core concepts, being new to clojure, that maybe I didnt understand name spaces
13:24	justin_smith	but you can likely at least prevent the bug from triggering by importing Business in that ns
13:24	sharms	thank you so much for the help
13:24	justin_smith	np
13:24	justin_smith	that's really good for someone so new to clojure, btw
13:24	justin_smith	not your first lisp I assume?
13:25	bacon1989	I was wondering, is there any support for clojureclr within leiningen?
13:25	sharms	justin_smith: I know a bunch of non-lisp languages and I did watch a few videos with SICP before taking a swing at making a test api
13:25	bacon1989	From what I can tell, there isn't as far as I know
13:26	sharms	justin_smith: Also I notice on github that when they do it in the examples, they use :refer :all so swagger must be expecting that
13:26	bacon1989	So I was wondering how difficult it would be to get clojureCLR working in leiningen
13:26	bacon1989	would it be a huge untertaking for me?
13:26	justin_smith	bacon1989: I recall seeing lein plugins that do clr stuff
13:27	justin_smith	sharms: the name "Business" led me to believe that it was a class being generated, and not a var
13:27	justin_smith	sharms: if it's a class it would need to be imported, if it's a var it would need to be referred / used
13:28	justin_smith	sharms: which reminds me, the convention is that capitalization is for things that generate classes, usually (though I am aware prismatic/schema also has its conventions etc.)
13:28	bacon1989	There's this https://github.com/kumarshantanu/lein-clr
13:28	martinklepsch	:profiles {:dev {:plugins [[com.cemerick/austin "0.1.6"]]}} — having this in a library, how can I ensure this does not end up being loaded as transitive dependency?
13:29	sharms	justin_smith: Ok that makes sense thanks
13:29	justin_smith	sharms: yeah, never mind, schema expects caps, but that's weird in the clojure world, so just expect people might misread things
13:29	justin_smith	so it is a var, just capitalized
13:30	gfredericks	,(def LOWER-CASE? false)
13:30	clojurebot	#'sandbox/LOWER-CASE?
13:30	justin_smith	haha
13:30	gfredericks	,(def unbound)
13:30	clojurebot	#'sandbox/unbound
13:31	gfredericks	,(def reflexive #'reflexive)
13:31	clojurebot	#'sandbox/reflexive
13:32	justin_smith	,(def def def)
13:32	clojurebot	#'sandbox/def
13:33	gfredericks	,def
13:33	clojurebot	#<Unbound Unbound: #'sandbox/def>
13:33	justin_smith	oh wow, that is better than expected
13:33	gfredericks	is there anything else it could do?
13:34	gfredericks	or did you expect an error?
13:34	justin_smith	I naively expected sandbox/def would be assigned the value of clojure.core/def which is of course wrong, because def creates the var before the form is evaluated so by that time def refers to itself
13:35	Bronsa	justin_smith: also there is no such thing as clojure.core/def
13:35	justin_smith	oh, that's helpful to know
13:35	bacon1989	I remember reading an article on a bunch of security holes taht were patched
13:35	clojurebot	No entiendo
13:35	bacon1989	* on clojurebot
13:38	bacon1989	but anyways, i'm interested in writing some clojureCLR libraries. I'm wondering if publishing .NET clojure code is possible
13:38	bacon1989	there doesn't appear to be anything on it
13:40	justin_smith	bacon1989: does .net have the kind of automatic dep resoltuion with a community repo that we use?
13:40	bacon1989	.NET has nuget
13:40	justin_smith	sounds like there should be a lein-nuget plugin (or maybe that's a candy bar)
13:40	bacon1989	so if need be, I wonder if writing something on top of nuget would make sense, sortof like how leiningen builds on top of Maven?
13:41	justin_smith	bacon1989: also, if you are using lein anyway, there's no reason you couldn't distribute clr code on maven
13:41	justin_smith	/clojars
13:41	bacon1989	justin_smith: hmmm
13:41	bacon1989	yeah, i'd prefer to take the 'less coding' path
13:42	bacon1989	and re-use what's already there
13:42	bacon1989	maybe i'll look through the lein-clr tool, and see if I can use that
13:42	justin_smith	and since much of what lein does is the maven stuff, maybe you'd just want nulein
13:42	bacon1989	there doesn't appear to be much interest in clojureCLR, I wish it could be just as easy to get started as in Java
13:43	justin_smith	bacon1989: the basics are there for sure, I think it's a question of tooling / community (of course that's chicken - egg)
13:43	bacon1989	yeah
13:43	justin_smith	bacon1989: I think the taint of MS keeps some of the sorts of folks that tend to develop free tooling for the community away from clr stuff
13:44	bacon1989	but there's Mono, and the latest Microsoft moves have been grand
13:44	justin_smith	bacon1989: not that clr isn't awesome and now very open, but the culture that leads to things like lein comes from a historical place that has a grudge against ms tech stacks
13:44	bacon1989	yeah true
13:44	justin_smith	not a technical problem at all, but a social one
13:44	bacon1989	but I can see a better adoption of a language that works on the CLR with .NET
13:44	arrdem	is't that how all of the language tooling stuff shake sout?
13:45	bacon1989	when it comes to enterprise
13:45	justin_smith	it's true
13:45	bacon1989	microsoft is still a pretty strong contender when it comes to businesses. The business i'm at right now is only microsoft
13:46	bacon1989	but yeah, no one likes the microsofts taint
13:46	justin_smith	arrdem: yeah. it's just that in my experience, the kind of person who makes a free open source tool that makes building stuff in X easier, either really really really loves X, or is a bit of a GNU / freedom for the sake of freedom / community oriented person (usually it's actually both I think)
13:47	bacon1989	that's the thing though, if microsoft all of a sudden makes stuff open-source, shouldn't we reward them?
13:48	justin_smith	oh sure, but just try using rationality to influence human motivations, see how far that gets you :)
13:48	bacon1989	Sortof push the demographics on what people want, and other companies will follow suit and make their stuff open after they see the benefits
13:48	bacon1989	haha
13:48	gfredericks	is .NET realistically useful outside of windows?
13:50	justin_smith	gfredericks: yeah, big parts of Gnome are built in mono
13:50	justin_smith	well - maybe not big parts, but it is in there
13:51	gfredericks	interesting
13:51	justin_smith	http://www.mono-project.com/docs/faq/general/#mono-and-gnome
13:52	martinklepsch	Somehow only Austin seems to be leaking from :profiles {:dev {:plugins [[lein-pprint "1.1.1"][com.cemerick/austin "0.1.7-SNAPSHOT"]]}}
13:52	justin_smith	I mean, for that matter the ancient windowmaker wm for linux was a port of a big part of next before it became OSX
13:53	bacon1989	gfredericks: idk about .NET, but the CLR runtime is use quite a bit outside of windows
13:53	gfredericks	I don't think I know the difference
13:54	justin_smith	.NET is oracle-jvm, CLR is the java spec
13:54	justin_smith	or something like that
13:54	bacon1989	.NET is a set of core libraries
13:54	justin_smith	ahh
13:54	bacon1989	.NET core was recently open-sourced though
13:54	bacon1989	mono tries it's best to mimmick .NET core and everything else
13:55	bacon1989	that's why the recent .NET core dump was huge
13:55	bacon1989	(to opensource)
13:55	justin_smith	very cool, thanks for the extra context
13:55	bacon1989	yeah, so .NET is a set of useful libraries, it's like Microsoft's Standard Libraries
13:56	bacon1989	sortof like Java's Standard Libraries get updated, C++11 std::, etc
13:56	jwm	opensource = more important than anything
13:57	jwm	really monumental that so much is going oss these days
13:58	justin_smith	jwm: at this point, I think it's hard to justify a non-opensource lang for new projects
13:59	justin_smith	hyPiRion: so this is a really funny error https://www.refheap.com/97034
14:00	justin_smith	hyPiRion: regarding the whole "what would happen if you caught throwable" question
14:00	justin_smith	hyPiRion: I still get my usable repl back afterward though
14:01	justin_smith	oh I get it - the exception happens while the form is still being compiled, and somehow when it is caught and things are removed we are no longer in the context of the "try" ? that's weird though, I still don't quite get it
14:07	martinklepsch	wow so my issue with Austin leaking into deps was that "lein install" runs with the :dev profile when I did lein with-profile -dev install, it wasn't there anymore
14:14	gfredericks	martinklepsch: are you installing an uberjar?
14:14	martinklepsch	gfredericks: no
14:14	gfredericks	er...AOT?
14:14	gfredericks	or you mean declared deps in the pom?
14:16	martinklepsch	gfredericks: specifically talking about this project.clj https://github.com/verma/pani/blob/master/project.clj
14:16	gfredericks	oh something to do with cljs?
14:17	martinklepsch	I dont think it has anything to do with cljs
14:17	martinklepsch	gfredericks: the issue I had was that whenever I depend on "pani" as described in the link I get a dependency on com.cemerick/austin as well
14:18	justin_smith	martinklepsch: I would say that's a problem with pani's pom file
14:19	martinklepsch	justin_smith: right. but I expected depencies in :profiles {:dev {:plugins []}} not to end up in said pom file
14:19	martinklepsch	justin_smith: is that a wrong assumption to make?
14:19	justin_smith	hmm - does clojars have a way to look at the pom file for an artifact? I guess I can just depend on pani to download it.
14:20	justin_smith	martinklepsch: yeah, so a bug in lein or some lein plugin? clearly a problem with their pom is a problem with the tool that generated it (or how it is being used...)
14:21	martinklepsch	justin_smith: I couldn't replicate the behaviour with other plugins than austin (e.g. lein-ancient) so I thought it might be an issue in austin but then again that shouldn't be possible right?
14:21	justin_smith	the pom file, for reference https://www.refheap.com/97036
14:22	martinklepsch	justin_smith: https://gist.github.com/martinklepsch/44f4d86ba3acead145c6
14:22	martinklepsch	heh, guess I was too slow :P
14:23	justin_smith	martinklepsch: this is terrible, but what if you tried removing the erroneous deps from the pom? better would be to clone the repo and see what change would prevent bad stuff from ending up in the pom, of course
14:24	martinklepsch	justin_smith: https://gist.github.com/martinklepsch/44f4d86ba3acead145c6#file-wo-austin-diff
14:24	tomjack	are there good alternatives to the common emoticons which are valid clojure forms?
14:24	justin_smith	tomjack: ;)
14:24	tomjack	oh, :/ is good. :) is all I need I guess
14:24	justin_smith	(comment to end of line)
14:24	tomjack	hah
14:24	martinklepsch	justin_smith: I cloned the repo and that "install" alias was the only way I could come up with that prevents austin from ending up in the pom
14:25	tomjack	of course I would like to be able to write more after the emoticon
14:25	tomjack	e.g. it should be able to go in the last spot of a one-line list
14:25	tomjack	using comments is an interesting idea for actual clojure code, though
14:25	justin_smith	tomjack: there are unicode things that look like ) but will be accepted as symbol-constituent by the reader
14:26	tomjack	ah, thanks, good idea
14:26	justin_smith	but at that point you may as well use emojis
14:26	arrdem	what's wrong with using emojis?
14:26	tomjack	yeah, that would satisfy me
14:27	tomjack	unicode just didn't occur to me
14:27	justin_smith	arrdem: they are an upgrade, but you need to accept the whole "unicode you can't easily type in the codebase as var symbols" thing
14:27	martinklepsch	arrdem: do those get rendered on github?
14:27	justin_smith	,:doge:
14:27	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: :doge:>
14:27	tomjack	I somewhat frequently turn on agda-input-mode in clojure-mode :O
14:28	arrdem	I pretty routinely use the TeX input mode in clojure-mode
14:28	arrdem	\gets
14:28	arrdem	\to
14:28	arrdem	\lambda
14:28	justin_smith	haha
14:28	arrdem	I'm perfectly serious
14:28	tomjack	I want to someday patch paredit so that it deals better
14:29	imanc_	(let [collided (filter (fn [x] (> (:x x) (:x obj))) active-list)] Why would this generate a null pointer exception? Strangely if i just delete the > func in the filter pred, the error no longer happens grrr
14:29	tomjack	imanc_: clojure is not sql :P
14:30	imanc_	changing the pred to (fn [x] true) or (fn [x] false) also solves it
14:30	tomjack	presumably either (:x x) for some x or (:x obj) is nil
14:30	tomjack	,(> nil 42)
14:30	clojurebot	#<NullPointerException java.lang.NullPointerException>
14:30	imanc_	aha!
14:30	imanc_	that must be it... thanks tomjack
14:31	tomjack	I'm trying to decide how I'd deal with that in the case that the numbers can be negative
14:32	justin_smith	(and (:x x) (:x obj) (> (:x x) (:x obj)))
14:32	justin_smith	you probably want a let block for that :)
14:32	justin_smith	well no - you don't want and
14:32	justin_smith	never mind
14:33	imanc_	and looks like it'd be a solution?
14:33	justin_smith	imanc_: false means either obj had a larger x, or one of the x's or things was nil
14:34	justin_smith	that's a lot of things to encode in one false :)
14:34	imanc_	ah i see
14:34	justin_smith	but if that is correct in your logic, run with it
14:35	justin_smith	(if (and (:x obj) (:x x)) (> (:x x) (:x obj))) :something-was-nil)
14:36	justin_smith	well, those parens are wrong
14:36	kryft	Does anyone happen to know if jdbc/update! can fail without throwing an exception (which would cause the transaction to roll back)?
14:37	martinklepsch	justin_smith: do you have any more input on that deps issue?
14:38	justin_smith	martinklepsch: I would make my own version of the lib that didn't have erroneous deps in the pom
14:38	justin_smith	martinklepsch: and it would be nice to make a pr for that, of course
14:39	justin_smith	"Clojure - Vatican City: Beautiful architecture and power well beyond its size, built over the bones of an ancient empire."
14:39	martinklepsch	justin_smith: sure, sure. I'm less concerned about solving it for me right now than solving it correctly
14:39	martinklepsch	justin_smith: that "install" task is a hack so I wonder what would be "the right way" to do it
14:39	justin_smith	hmm.
14:40	justin_smith	figure out which plugin / which part of lein is screwing up there I guess?
14:40	justin_smith	I'm not really sure
15:07	martinklepsch	justin_smith: ok, I'll see what I can do
15:29	expez	I'm trying to spin up datomic with an h2 db and I get a NPE in find-log when it's trying to create a UUID. Do I have to do anything other than create-db before running connect?
15:32	expez	in the docs they just do create-db followed by connect, but that's in the groovysh shrug
15:37	expez	damn this works just fine in the groovysh but not at the repl
15:47	justin_smith	expez: it's calling the same bytrcode, so I'd imagine your groovy to clj adaption needs work?
15:49	expez	Peer.createDatabase(ur) => (datomic.api/create-database) and Peer.connect(uri) => (datomic.api/connect uri)
15:50	expez	the problem was modular-datomic depends on datomic-extras which depends on old version of datomic free which wasn't loaded in the groovy console
15:51	justin_smith	expez: yoi passed the uri to create-database, right?
15:52	expez	justin_smith: yes, but the log formats weren't compatible between the old version of datomic which was pulled in by the transitive deps and the one running in the transactor
15:52	expez	it's working now but that was an annoying problem
15:52	justin_smith	ahh
15:53	expez	was trying to save a few minutes by using the juxt/modular components but between all the transitive deps and the complete lack of documentation I'm starting to regret that decision
15:57	AeroNotix	anyone got an up-to-date guide on using protobufs with clojure/
15:57	AeroNotix	?
16:21	AeroNotix	eugh, protobufs in clojure.
16:21	AeroNotix	fraught
16:22	tcrayford____	AeroNotix: can you copy whatever riemann does?
16:22	tcrayford____	AeroNotix: I know you're already familiar with riemann haha
16:23	AeroNotix	tcrayford____: oh I forgot riemann uses protobufs. good idea.
16:26	AeroNotix	It's... not clear what it does.
16:26	tcrayford____	hahaha :(
16:26	AeroNotix	it just pulls in a package from com.riemann.protobufs
16:26	AeroNotix	com.aphyr.riemann sorry
16:27	tcrayford____	ah, welp then :/
16:27	tcrayford____	that prolly uses generated java classes
16:27	AeroNotix	indeed
16:27	tcrayford____	as far as I understand things, https://github.com/ninjudd/lein-protobuf is basically the state of the art
16:28	arohner	is there a thing similar to clojure.core/bean for cljs?
16:28	arohner	i.e. get a hashmap from the fields of an arbitrary js obj?
16:28	AeroNotix	tcrayford____: Using that now and it's... less than perfect. It generates code that doesn't compile.
16:28	AeroNotix	working myself through the forks of it now
16:28	tcrayford____	arohner: doesn't like, `into` work or something (I don't use cljs though)
16:29	tcrayford____	seeing as js objs are just maps anyway
16:29	tcrayford____	arohner: if not it seems trivial to write with `Object.keys` in js land
16:29	arohner	Error: [object Window] is not ISeqable
16:29	tcrayford____	AeroNotix: ah, sorry then, don't think I can help more
16:29	arohner	tcrayford____: yeah, I'm about to do that, was just asking if it existed first :-)
16:31	AeroNotix	tcrayford____: I think the riemann-clojure-client uses the java stuff which uses whatever the java compile machinery uses to compile protobufs
16:31	AeroNotix	and not lein-protobufs
16:32	AeroNotix	:/
16:32	tcrayford____	AeroNotix: that seems like an reasonable idea to me. It definitely wraps them in records futher inside riemann
16:32	tcrayford____	like, you can call `assoc` on an Event, but I guess aphyr just does that wrapping inside riemann itself
16:32	AeroNotix	yeah
16:32	arohner	js->clj exists, and the source looks like it does the right thing, but it is returning nil on me
16:32	AeroNotix	I'll persevere
16:33	arohner	hrm, looks like js->clj doesn't have a case for things that are native code
16:57	dagda1_	I have been trying to solve this nth-prime problem on hackerrank https://www.hackerrank.com/contests/projecteuler/challenges/euler007 but I just cannot get it fast enough, I found lazy seqs the slowest and this
16:57	dagda1_	is the fastest I can get it and it still fails 2 tests https://gist.github.com/dagda1/9f182549988709c80610
16:58	dagda1_	I'm aghast, can anyone suggest an refinements, using lazy seqs was at least twice as slow
16:58	justin_smith	arohner: I woyld use .keys as a sequence to reduce over
16:58	tcrayford____	dagda1_: type hint function args so they take primitive, use a transient vector given that you're just banging on it
16:59	tcrayford____	currently you're boxing/unboxing on every call to is-prime? (I think)
16:59	dagda1_	tcrayford____: what do you mean banging on it?
16:59	justin_smith	arohner: due to inheritance stuff hasOwnProperty is udeful here
16:59	tcrayford____	like, it's single threaded and you're mostly mutating it rather than passing it around etc
17:00	dagda1_	tcrayford____: I've never heard ot type hints
17:00	tcrayford____	http://clojure.org/java_interop#Java%20Interop-Type%20Hints
17:00	dagda1_	tcrayford____: use a transient in n-primes?
17:00	tcrayford____	yea
17:00	tcrayford____	that might not even be a big win though
17:00	tcrayford____	what jvm options are you running it with?
17:00	tcrayford____	(hi: I do cleaxjure performance a lot)
17:01	arohner	dagda1_: there are also significantly faster algos
17:01	arohner	dagda1_: focus on algo first, clojure overhead is not your problem
17:01	tcrayford____	also that's prolly the real deal haha
17:01	dagda1_	tcrayford____: that is outside of my control, you paste the code into the site
17:02	arohner	dagda1_: in general, the euler problems are very math heavy, so solving problems typically requires more math knowledge than clojure knowledge
17:02	tcrayford____	arohner: I've seen 5000x perf differences from bad jvm/clojure usage in the past haha. It's not always just the algorithm
17:02	tcrayford____	(though it prolly is here)
17:03	dagda1_	this was almost twice as slow than my loop recur but I was twice as pleased with this code :) https://gist.github.com/dagda1/c0165842dce687c6ab16
17:04	dagda1_	sorry, that is from the clojure lazy-seq docs and that got a stack overflow
17:05	justin_smith	arohner: acually (Object/keys j) and that slready filters inherited stuff
17:05	arohner	justin_smith: thanks
17:05	arohner	I'll look into that
17:05	dagda1_	this is my lazy version that was twice as slow as using loop reucr https://gist.github.com/dagda1/41141f53b50b06c98094
17:08	dagda1_	this got me a big boost by only checking up to the square root (range 3 (inc (Math/sqrt n)) 2) and also only checking for odd number primes other than 2, I don't know what is left
17:09	dagda1_	I've seen the sieve of erathonese mentioned here http://clj-me.cgrand.net/index.php?s=eratosthenes but I'm not convinced it is faster
17:09	dagda1_	I'll have to try it
17:09	michaelr525	hey
17:09	tcrayford____	dagda1_: learn you some 2 millenia old mathematical optimization
17:10	michaelr525	i wonder why lein cljsbuild clean has been deprecated?
17:10	dagda1_	tcrayford____: I think I need to time travel
17:10	amalloy	dagda1_: the real sieve is a lot faster than the trial division in your poaste
17:10	dagda1_	amalloy: I think I need a sieve, it is all I have left
17:10	amalloy	simply because it involves only addition and array lookups, rathre than division
17:11	dagda1_	pretty depressed about how slow lazy seqs are
17:13	amalloy	dagda1_: they're really not. if you use a bad algorithm, work on that before you complain about the performance of underlying tools
17:13	amalloy	like, you're doing a ton of work recomputing primes, treating each test case as totally independent, instead of reusing a list of primes between the T test cases
17:14	dagda1_	amalloy: I think it is fair to say that there is a price on a lazy sequence, I don't see how i am dissing the language by saying that
17:14	amalloy	the sieve is a bit harder to use when you don't have the same goal in mine (it's designed for finding all primes less than N, rather than the first N primes)
17:14	amalloy	of course. there is a price for addition too
17:14	amalloy	are you depressed about how slow addition is?
17:15	dagda1_	amalloy: I'm just depressed I cannot pass the tests :)
17:15	dagda1_	amalloy: at least not quick enough
17:16	dagda1_	amalloy: I'm coming from the ruby world, I understand slow
17:17	dagda1_	I tried memoising also, I need to try the sieve for myself
17:17	AeroNotix	Does anyone think that when-let could be improved somewhat?
17:17	AeroNotix	e.g. it doesn't really work with destructuring
17:17	AeroNotix	multiple bindings would be nice too
17:18	amalloy	AeroNotix: when-let works fine with destructuring. (when-let [[x & xs] (seq coll)] ...)
17:19	tcrayford____	AeroNotix: also it should really be called whence-let
17:19	AeroNotix	amalloy: try a map destructure
17:19	amalloy	it only appears not to work because you imagine it doing other stuff like somehow knowing which bindings you want to be testing, rather than what it actually does, which is test the truthiness of the value you bind to
17:19	AeroNotix	amalloy: indeed
17:20	AeroNotix	I looked at the macroexpansion, there's no misunderstanding when the code is right there.
17:20	AeroNotix	Please don't imply I'm just brain-dead.
17:20	amalloy	you said it "doesn't work with destructuring", which is obviously false
17:20	AeroNotix	There's no destructuring going on with (seq coll)
17:22	justin_smith	,(when-let [{a :a} nil] true)
17:22	clojurebot	nil
17:23	AeroNotix	The truthiness check is done before the bindings
17:23	amalloy	or indeed if you want to assert that the key :a is present and still destructure, you can write (when-let [{:keys [a]} (not-empty (select-keys m [:a]))] ...). lots of avenues are open to you
17:23	AeroNotix	amalloy: and that's a bit gross. Imho
17:23	amalloy	so write your own macro
17:23	AeroNotix	I'm thinking it could be nice to improve on it a bit
17:23	amalloy	that does whatever you want
17:23	AeroNotix	amalloy: I am thinking about it
17:24	AeroNotix	I was hoping either this already exists somewhere :)
17:24	justin_smith	quorum: like when-let but multiple bindings snd all must be non-nil
17:24	amalloy	it probably does
17:25	AeroNotix	justin_smith: that's.. pretty much what I want
17:25	amalloy	$google clojure and-let
17:25	lazybot	[Jay Fields' Thoughts: Clojure: Combining Calls To Doseq And Let] http://blog.jayfields.com/2013/05/clojure-combining-calls-to-doseq-and-let.html
17:25	amalloy	i dunno, that looks like a bad search result
17:25	AeroNotix	hmm
17:26	amalloy	you can also try github.com/egamble/let-else
17:26	AeroNotix	amalloy: did you mean? http://edtsech.github.io/2012/12/and-let.html
17:26	amalloy	well, i haven't read that article
17:26	amalloy	but i know that the thing you are looking for is called and-let in other languages
17:26	AeroNotix	this only focuses on simple bindings
17:27	turbofail	yeah most of those still won't check for truthiness on all of the destructuring variables
17:27	turbofail	probably because doing so requires basically parsing the destructuring syntax
17:27	turbofail	for which cfleming's approach would be nice again
17:28	amalloy	turbofail: well, you don't have to parse it yourself; that's whta clojure.core/destructure is for
17:28	AeroNotix	seems we could steal https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/clojure-1.6.0/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L4045
17:28	AeroNotix	yeah
17:28	turbofail	amalloy: oh, didn't know that existed
17:28	AeroNotix	it.. needs to exis
17:28	AeroNotix	t
17:28	AeroNotix	let is just a macro implemented in clojure
17:28	amalloy	eg i use it in https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/flatland/useful/utils.clj#L224
17:29	AeroNotix	that's sweet^
17:29	turbofail	AeroNotix: i could totally have imagined it being an internal thing, not actually usable from elsewhere
17:29	amalloy	so that you can write like (let-later [x [1 2 3] [^:delay y] x] ...)
17:29	turbofail	like the `for' parsing
17:30	AeroNotix	amalloy: doesn't Sir Tellman have a similar thing?
17:31	amalloy	are you thinking of riddley?
17:31	amalloy	no, probably you're not. i dunno
17:32	AeroNotix	hmm, no ztellman had a lib with something like this
17:32	AeroNotix	where the binding form would be executed in parallel
17:32	AeroNotix	wrapping them in delays and automatically forcing them seems neat though
19:42	sdegutis	Is there a way to specify easily when using assoc-in that one of the keys must simply be the last element of that vector?
19:43	sdegutis	I think I'm using assoc-in all wrong. I have the value of the node I want to update, but not the indexes of how to get to it.
19:43	gfredericks	don't use assoc-in for that
19:43	sdegutis	Is there a better way to solve this?
19:43	gfredericks	use update-in with conj
19:43	sdegutis	Plese help. Thanks in regards.
19:44	sdegutis	gfredericks: well the node already exists, it's a map deep in a nested structure, and I want to update a key in that map
19:44	alandipert	sdegutis: i have a thing for you maybe 1 sc
19:44	gfredericks	ooh I see
19:44	sdegutis	I keep thinking tree-seq may help?
19:45	gfredericks	no you probably just want a special update function for vectors
19:45	gfredericks	,(defn update-last [v f & args] (apply update v (dec (count v)) f args))
19:45	clojurebot	#'sandbox/update-last
19:45	sdegutis	Or am I supposed to give this function a "path" to the node it represents?
19:46	sdegutis	I'd usually do it by just making sure this function has the path given to it in its entirety.
19:46	gfredericks	,(def the-data {:tacos [{:flavor 7} {:flavor "juice"}]})
19:46	clojurebot	#'sandbox/the-data
19:46	sdegutis	But that means adjusting a lot of intermediate function parameters.
19:46	sdegutis	But it seems cleanest.
19:46	gfredericks	,(update the-data :tacos update-last assoc :size "jumbo")
19:46	clojurebot	{:tacos [{:flavor 7} {:flavor "juice", :size "jumbo"}]}
19:47	alandipert	sdegutis: https://gist.github.com/alandipert/ac8e8b77e8660b9f947a
19:48	sdegutis	That is some code.
19:48	alandipert	the idea with the paths thing is it gives you all the paths into a nested map, which you can then filter
19:48	sdegutis	I dunno, I feel like this shouldn't be so special cased.
19:48	alandipert	i’ve been using it together with https://github.com/cgrand/seqexp to do unsound things with mongo records
19:48	sdegutis	Haha
19:49	sdegutis	alandipert: well played sir or madam
19:49	alandipert	it’s sort of xslt-ish
19:49	alandipert	tyty
19:49	sdegutis	Oh! Maybe clojure.walk can help here?
19:49	gfredericks	don't you just want to update a single thing?
19:49	sdegutis	Yes, but that thing is very deep.
19:49	gfredericks	clojure.walk tramps all over your data
19:50	sdegutis	I'm okay with walking all over the data, I just want to find the deep thing.
19:50	sdegutis	I hope ClojureScript has clojure.walk
19:50	sdegutis	Otherwise I can just change my functions to take more parameters so that it can build up a path.
19:50	sdegutis	The context is that I'm writing a budgeting app for myself using Reagent in ClojureScript.
19:51	gfredericks	sdegutis: so if you had a variant of assoc-in that took negative numbers as vector indices, would that solve your problem?
19:51	sdegutis	I'm updating an "actual" field (number) in an "expense" map which is the last key in the "months" vector.
19:52	sdegutis	gfredericks: technically yes, but it would be special casing it such that I can't easily change the thingy.
19:52	sdegutis	I think changing the parameters is the cleanest way to do htis.
19:52	sdegutis	Thanks everyone for your charity.
19:52	gfredericks	good luck
19:52	sdegutis	gfredericks++
20:41	vas	Hello. I am playing with the ring.middleware.anti-forgery/anti-forgery-token and am not sure how to embedd it into my form as a hidden field that isn't evaluated until needed. Trying to run my server with lein ring server yields something like "attempting to call unbound fn" ..
20:44	vas	nevermind, i think i just biffed on the enlive html. thanks anyway, shall ping again!
21:32	julianleviston	Hey correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t this broken because of lazy eval? (defn add-recipes [datas] (map add-recipe datas))
21:32	julianleviston	(from http://www.clojuregeek.com/2015/02/07/getting-the-hang-of-map/)
21:34	montyxcantsin	I think someone addresses that in the comments
21:34	julianleviston	Oh yeah, nevermind, a commenter pointed it out. all good.
21:35	julianleviston	she’s obviously doing all this at the REPL.
22:08	vas	In using enlive to generate html for a form, i'm trying to incorporate the anti-forgery-token field but it is unbound on page access. how do I make sure it gets set? or would it simply be easier to incorporate the anti forgery token into page headers instead?
22:09	justin_smith	vas: how did you go about adding the anti-forgery field to the form?
22:10	justin_smith	vas: you should be able to insert the right vector into the data representing the form from your request handler
22:14	vas	justin_smith: so on the (GET "/pagewithform" [] (renderpage)) you're saying i could pass the token along to renderpage?
22:14	justin_smith	right, and let renderpage insert the token into the form before rendering
22:15	justin_smith	you may want to include more too - eg. if they are coming back from an error after having partially filled the form you could prefill the relevant parts etc.
22:15	justin_smith	(eventually that is)
22:15	sdegutis	What makes Clojure particularly good at writing parsers?
22:15	vas	justin_smith: ah. that makes sense. that is a great direction! thanks a lot (=
22:15	sdegutis	hi justin_smith
22:16	justin_smith	hello sdegutis
22:16	sdegutis	justin_smith: you're so often helpful to me so I thought I'd be friendly to pay my respects
22:16	justin_smith	well thank you kind sir, and a good day to you
22:17	sdegutis	justin_smith: that was slightly humourous
22:17	sdegutis	justin_smith: well done
22:17	sdegutis	What makes Clojure particularly good at writing parsers?
22:17	julianleviston	hey this reminds me of the time a few seconds ago
22:17	julianleviston	… when you asked that.
22:18	justin_smith	maybe because we have first class continuations and that makes parsing so much easier
22:18	justin_smith	oh wait, we don't!
22:18	julianleviston	sdegutis: this? https://github.com/Engelberg/instaparse
22:19	aaelony	what does "good" mean? what does "particularly good" mean?
22:20	sdegutis	julianleviston: right
22:20	sdegutis	justin_smith: right, you don't
22:20	sdegutis	julianleviston: ah okay
22:20	sdegutis	aaelony: I don't know
22:21	julianleviston	sdegutis: and yet, you’re asking the question. What are you trying to ask here, really?
22:21	aaelony	comparatively easier to write? more performant? something else?
22:21	julianleviston	sdegutis: did you just read something someone said, and you’re asking us why s/he said it?
22:21	justin_smith	in all seriousness, I think functional programming is elegant for parsing, but I wouldn't say clojure, among the functional languages, was particularly good at it
22:22	sdegutis	sure
22:22	julianleviston	I think PEGs are particularly good for writing parsers.
22:22	justin_smith	for example parsing can lead to huge stack and heap usage, which are both things clojure has a problem with already
22:22	sdegutis	justin_smith: why not?
22:22	sdegutis	okay
22:22	sdegutis	thanks
22:23	justin_smith	now for a web server back end, or a REST service? I think clojure really excells for that sort of thing.
22:23	julianleviston	He’s gone.
22:23	justin_smith	'tis his pattern
22:23	julianleviston	haha is it? :)
22:23	julianleviston	Ask a question, don’t hang around for the full answer?
22:24	justin_smith	he shows up, asks a bizarre (or at least oddly worded) question, and leaves. Sometimes it's trolling, other times I can't prove it is :)
22:24	julianleviston	It did feel like he didn’t actually care about the question. Hence the lack of response, I guess.
22:25	julianleviston	Reminds me of one of my friends who asks impossible questions like “What hat do you think I should get?”
22:25	hueyp	with core async, is there a method to not evaluate a put until a take happens? kind of like (lazy-seq ...) ?
22:26	aaelony	I have a question like that... how much of a performance boost should one expect by converting pmaps over collections to core.async channels?
22:26	justin_smith	hueyp: you could put a delay, and deref it on the other end I guess
22:26	julianleviston	hueyp: sure… wrap a go block around a blocking take and a put after it.
22:27	justin_smith	aaelony: core.async isn't actually a perf bonus usually (not that pmap tends to have great perf for most tasks either...)
22:27	justin_smith	~pmap
22:27	clojurebot	pmap is not what you want
22:27	justin_smith	julianleviston: I was imagining he meant the take and put were in separate go blocks
22:27	julianleviston	justin_smith: oh… ok. It was a very general question.
22:27	hueyp	e.g. I have a lazy-seq of blocking http requests ... no request happens if you don't take from it
22:27	aaelony	I have had good success by simply using pmap, but I'm considering adopting channels for future endeavors, any thoughts?
22:28	vas	there's gotta be a simpler way to play with this csrf token... anybody have any good resources on schoolin' a neophyte on how to ring.middleware?
22:28	hueyp	not sure how to translate that into non-blocking without evaluating at least 1 http request
22:28	julianleviston	aaelony: future endeavours?
22:28	justin_smith	hueyp: I think you would use pipeline, and evaluate each request as they are put on the channel
22:28	julianleviston	vas: oh god… it’s so simple that it’s complex.
22:28	aaelony	the next time I need to write something that will generate a lot of heat
22:28	justin_smith	either that, or send delays or functions that get evaluated or forced on the other end
22:29	julianleviston	aaelony: it entirely depends on what you’re trying to do. Ask when you have the problem, I reckon.
22:29	vas	julianleviston: hahah i feel like i am finding icebergs every time i'm trying to pick up an ice cube, but it's good practice i s'pose
22:29	aaelony	is there any general guidance?
22:29	justin_smith	aaelony: core.async is great for organizing otherwise complex interactions between different logical flows of code
22:30	justin_smith	aaelony: it won't always make things blazing fast, but it does tend to help with clarity and correctness
22:30	julianleviston	aaelony: generally, … no.
22:30	aaelony	justin_smith: I have used pmap for that in the past.
22:30	julianleviston	aaelony: it always depends… always.
22:30	julianleviston	Speaking of parsers, I really liked OMeta….
22:30	aaelony	julianleviston: that isn't a strong case to shift from the premise of avoiding pmap then
22:31	justin_smith	aaelony: yeah, if you only have one producing logic pmap can make sense (as long as there is a relatively large work load per item in the mapping) but once you have more complex flow between parallel processes core.async really starts to shine
22:32	vas	i got the token to print to the browser!! jello shots for everyone!
22:32	julianleviston	aaelony: but if you have something that generates a lot of heat, it might be for various reasons… inefficiency (due to needing to rework your program into a more understandable state), or it might just be because it needs more or less parallelizing.
22:32	justin_smith	WOO
22:32	julianleviston	vas: woo!
22:32	aaelony	justin_smith: I'm currently using it with two nested pmaps, it seems to work pretty well. For example, one pmap over choices of files to process and another pmap over the lines of a particular file
22:32	julianleviston	haha jynx
22:32	justin_smith	julianleviston: well, of course shots mean WOO what else would they mean?
22:33	julianleviston	justin_smith: oh I was wooing coz he did the thing. I don’t drink.
22:33	amalloy	lazybot: what do you say to free shots?
22:33	lazybot	It's AWWWW RIGHT!
22:33	vas	hhaha
22:33	justin_smith	haha
22:33	julianleviston	aaelony: does pmap allow you to specify the concurrency?
22:33	julianleviston	I should know this
22:33	aaelony	julianleviston: the size of the box, right?
22:33	justin_smith	julianleviston: it's automatic based on physical cores and magic numbers
22:34	aaelony	julianleviston: in effect, yes, because I spin up a box size I need to run it on :P
22:34	julianleviston	LOL
22:34	julianleviston	aaelony: but it depends on the task, right? sometimes you don’t want that particular part of the program to get all that bandwidth...
22:35	julianleviston	aaelony: (of processors)
22:35	aaelony	so the idea is that a channel approach with core.async would provide better control?
22:35	julianleviston	aaelony: I feel like CSP gives you more control over your “concurrency”.
22:35	aaelony	I see
22:35	julianleviston	aaelony: exactly.
22:35	justin_smith	my favorite is always the calculation of the core.async pool size https://github.com/clojure/core.async/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/async/impl/exec/threadpool.clj#L21
22:36	justin_smith	I mean if I just dropped that factoid, you'd likely think I was joking if you hadn't read the source already
22:36	julianleviston	aaelony: As the programmer, you actually know how much concurrency you’d like, often… at least, in proportion to the other parts of your program. Some things are more important than others…
22:36	aaelony	I thought it had to do with the threads in async being more lightweight due to better scheduling or something like that
22:36	aaelony	justin_smith: thanks for that link.
22:36	julianleviston	aaelony: well it can use sharing, whereas I don’t think pmap can, right?
22:36	justin_smith	aaelony: the core.async threads are real OS threads (or they don't exist, in cljs) but in each one there is a state machine
22:36	julianleviston	42!!!!!
22:36	justin_smith	aaelony: hilarious, isn't it?
22:37	aaelony	funny stuff.
22:37	justin_smith	and the state machine picks up go blocks when they have been parking but are now ready to do work
22:37	aaelony	douglas adams would be proud
22:37	justin_smith	indeed
22:37	aaelony	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/42_%28number%29
22:38	justin_smith	blame says we have tbaldridge to thank for that calculation
22:38	justin_smith	we have other reasons adams can be proud
22:38	julianleviston	hehe
22:38	justin_smith	(+ 41 1)
22:38	clojurebot	suffusion of yellow
22:38	aaelony	I didn't realize there was a term "pronic"
22:38	justin_smith	^ like that
22:38	aaelony	funny
22:39	justin_smith	the number of rooted ordered binary trees with six leaves
22:39	aaelony	well, at some point I'll try to invoke the same functions I use with pmap in a core.async setting and compare notes.
22:40	justin_smith	the number of ways in which five pairs of nested parentheses can be arranged
22:41	aaelony	sounds like a knuth xmas lecture on trees with imaginary numbers being called imagin-ary trees...
22:41	justin_smith	haha
22:48	vas	my 404 page says "it is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness" .. just thought i would share, as it has stopped me from pulling hair out :)
22:49	julianleviston	vas: it’s also substantially harder.
22:53	julianleviston	wow… I’d never connected DSLs to protocol composition, but of course.
22:57	justin_smith	julianleviston: care to elaborate?
23:01	julianleviston	justin_smith: I guess Ruby burnt me out about DSLs for quite a while… (coz we’re mad about them in Ruby, but they’re not really DSLs, they’re more subsets of Ruby), and so I’d consequently not given this talk the time of day it probably deserved: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/DSL-Clojure (Jim Duey))… but really, they should be more like the VPRI POL (problem-oriented languages), where they’re actually
23:01	julianleviston	potentially completely different languages, which necessitates protocols and their composition…
23:01	astar	join haskell
23:02	julianleviston	astar: huh?
23:02	julianleviston	astar: do you mean I should learn Haskell because of the types system? I’ve learned some Haskell… not fully in depth enough to be able to code in it...
23:03	julianleviston	oh… he was trying to join #haskell lol
23:03	justin_smith	julianleviston: I think he meant to do /join haskell but made a typo
23:12	justin_smith	julianleviston: funny, so far he is showing DSLs that I have intentionally stopped using because they don't compose as well in higher order code than regular clojure would
23:12	justin_smith	*as
23:12	julianleviston	justin_smith: yeah it’s pretty ironic… in a way, clojure (being a lisp) is the ultimate DSL..
23:16	julianleviston	I’m still super keen on POLs, but I couldn’t easily understand OMeta because I didn’t understand PEGs enough… I think now I should probably revisit it… I wonder if someone’s done a port to clojure… so far all I can find it something by someone “inspired” by OMeta. There’s Ometa/js so that might be cljs portable I guess. It’s very interesting!
23:16	julianleviston	so much to learn.
23:31	montyxcantsin	hahaha sorry just read that "join haskell" incident
23:33	justin_smith	oh wow, another monty cantsin
23:33	justin_smith	is karen eliot around too?
23:34	justin_smith	also, of the places I hang out this is the last one where I would expect to see a monty cantsin
23:35	montyxcantsin	me are legion
23:40	julianleviston	montyxcantsin: it’s oddly appropriate… “join haskell” ;-)
23:40	jwm	heh subethasmtp has left 300k tmp files in my temp folder
23:41	justin_smith	woah
23:43	julianleviston	I really wish commutativity was a first class programming construct rather than an afterthought, like core.async or somesuch.
23:44	justin_smith	julianleviston: like a metadata that tells you if primitives commute, and then you could derive whether a function commutes based on what it calls?
23:46	julianleviston	justin_smith: no, more like… as it stands, everything is assumed to NOT be commutative… it’s assumed that each “line” of code is non-commutative… assumed to be sequential and that prior lines have already been executed. I’d like that not to be necessarily the case. The standard should be that lines execute commutatively (ie order doesn’t matter) unless you mark them as non-commutative…
23:47	montyxcantsin	you should dig occam
23:48	julianleviston	justin_smith: because non-commutivity is really only a requirement sometimes… bindings indicate most of the non-commutivity, and for the side-effecting cases, it should be pretty trivial to mark them.
23:49	julianleviston	montyxcantsin: thanks I’ll take a loo
23:49	julianleviston	look even ;-)
23:50	julianleviston	I do very much like CSP.