#clojure – 2015-01-25

2015-01-25

14:48	gfredericks	chouser update: chouser appreciates being watched out for
14:48	chouser	That's ... comforting?
14:49	gfredericks	clojurebot: chouser is C. House R.
14:49	clojurebot	Alles klar
14:49	sdegutis	justin_smith watches over chouser as he sleeps, ostensibly to protect him etc
14:53	uptown	to catch a predicator
14:56	imanc	holy carp - an hour staring at that code example and the penny has just dropped
14:56	SagiCZ1	imanc: was it loud?
14:57	imanc	oh yes
14:58	augustl	is there a function to create an infinite sequence of the same item?
14:59	augustl	I'm trying to (zipmap that-infinite-collection (map :get-some-val other-coll))
14:59	justin_smith	augustl: repeatedly?
14:59	SagiCZ1	,(take 10 (repeat 4))
14:59	justin_smith	or even repeat
14:59	clojurebot	(4 4 4 4 4 ...)
14:59	justin_smith	yeah
14:59	augustl	on second thought.. will zipmap handle an infinite sequence as its first argument? :)
14:59	justin_smith	augustl: wait, it would need to be the second arg...
15:00	justin_smith	augustl: it will handle it, by having each one replace the previous
15:00	justin_smith	so you end up with only one key
15:00	augustl	doh, what was I thinking, brainfart
15:00	justin_smith	&(zipmap (repeat 10) [:a :b :c :d])
15:00	lazybot	⇒ {10 :d}
15:01	chouser	that amuses me
15:01	justin_smith	&(zipmap [:a :b :c :d] (repeat 10))
15:01	lazybot	⇒ {:d 10, :c 10, :b 10, :a 10}
15:02	kaiyin	clojurebot is Dutch?
15:02	justin_smith	chouser: we can add it to our obfuscated clojure toolkit, along with ##((get get get get) {:a 0} :a)
15:02	lazybot	⇒ 0
15:03	chouser	nice
15:03	SagiCZ1	,(get get get get)
15:03	clojurebot	#<core$get clojure.core$get@72a421fc>
15:03	SagiCZ1	,get
15:03	clojurebot	#<core$get clojure.core$get@72a421fc>
15:04	SagiCZ1	,(get {:a 0} :a)
15:04	clojurebot	0
15:04	SagiCZ1	,(= get (get get get get))
15:04	clojurebot	true
15:04	SagiCZ1	,(= + (+ + + +))
15:04	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.core$_PLUS_ cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
15:04	dpathakj	haaa, that’s nice
15:04	SagiCZ1	is it...
15:04	justin_smith	SagiCZ1: the trick with the four gets is that get is very forgiving about its first arg
15:04	dpathakj	SagiCZ1: sorry, timing issue.
15:05	dpathakj	referring to the (get get get get) thing
15:05	SagiCZ1	dpathakj: yeah i just think its not very nice..
15:05	dpathakj	,(doc get)
15:05	clojurebot	"([map key] [map key not-found]); Returns the value mapped to key, not-found or nil if key not present."
15:05	SagiCZ1	yeah so the first args should be a map
15:05	justin_smith	I aint gonna lie, I am proud of (get get get get), and sad that it is likely my most notable contribution to the world of clojur programming
15:05	SagiCZ1	heh
15:05	justin_smith	SagiCZ1: associative
15:06	justin_smith	a set or vector or whatever would work there too
15:06	SagiCZ1	justin_smith: so why get works too?
15:06	mavbozo	i try to login to datomic.com but it says "Username or Password incorrect". I try to reset my password, it says "Email address not found.". Maybe its database currently time travels to the past.
15:07	justin_smith	SagiCZ1: get takes up to three args - if the second is not "in" the first (including situations where the first isn't even an associative structure that supports lookup) it returns the third
15:07	chouser	,(:foo :foo :foo)
15:07	clojurebot	:foo
15:07	SagiCZ1	,(get :foo 42)
15:07	clojurebot	nil
15:08	justin_smith	SagiCZ1: now add one more arg
15:08	SagiCZ1	,(get :foo 42 99)
15:08	clojurebot	99
15:08	SagiCZ1	mmmkaaay
15:09	justin_smith	in conclusion, get is like "The Dude" and will let really weird shit go down because he's like "whatever, just use nil or the default", and is the source of many errors that pop up in other weird places
15:09	SagiCZ1	justin_smith: so is it considered flawed in a sense?
15:10	justin_smith	SagiCZ1: considered by whom? it has good reasons to be so forgiving, but also leads to confusing errors popping up elsewhere
15:10	SagiCZ1	i see
15:11	justin_smith	and of course get is what implements hash-maps or keywords used in the function position
15:11	justin_smith	(or symbols even)
15:11	justin_smith	,('a 'b 'c 'd)
15:11	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (3) passed to: Symbol>
15:11	justin_smith	oops!
15:11	justin_smith	,('a 'b 'c)
15:11	clojurebot	c
15:11	SagiCZ1	very odd
15:23	chouser	,[(gensym) :a, (gensym) :b]
15:24	clojurebot	[G__27 :a G__28 :b]
15:24	chouser	,{(gensym) :a, (gensym) :a}
15:24	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Duplicate key: (gensym)>
15:25	justin_smith	,`{~@[:a 0] ~@[:b 1]}
15:25	clojurebot	{:b 1, :a 0}
15:25	justin_smith	,`{~@[:a 0] ~@[:b 1] ~@[:c 2]}
15:25	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Map literal must contain an even number of forms>
15:29	justin_smith	but, of course this works ##(do `{~@[:a 0 :b] ~@[1 :c 2]})
15:29	lazybot	⇒ {:c 2, :b 1, :a 0}
15:34	dpathakj	,(source get)
15:35	clojurebot	Source not found\n
15:36	AeroNotix	I'm sure I've asked this before, but why isn't there a def- ?
15:36	hellofunk	i'm curious about your gensym map keys there. not behaving the same as your vector, chouser
15:37	Bronsa	hellofunk: at read-time (gensym) is the same as (gensym), the map can't have two equal keys
15:37	hellofunk	Bronsa: so key duplication in maps is a reader task, not a compiler?
15:38	justin_smith	{} is a read time construct, so it kind of needs to be as I understand it
15:38	hellofunk	ah, i see.
15:40	hellofunk	justin_smith: wait, how is {} read time, yet [] is not?
15:41	justin_smith	[] doesn't care how many items are in it
15:41	justin_smith	{} cares about duplicates, and needs an even count
15:41	hellofunk	justin_smith: actually i guess they'd both be, but vectors don't have these constraints on content, so reader lets it through
15:41	justin_smith	right
15:42	hellofunk	i don't think of those as reader constructs. is the compiler seeing them as hash-map and vector fns?
15:42	Bronsa	,(read-string "{1 1}")
15:42	clojurebot	{1 1}
15:42	Bronsa	,(class (read-string "{1 1}"))
15:42	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
15:42	Bronsa	hellofunk: that's what the compiler sees them as
15:43	hellofunk	Bronsa: i tried that read-string earlier and was suprised to see the reader output be the same as the input
15:43	Bronsa	it's not the same
15:43	Bronsa	you input a string, you get back a map
15:44	Bronsa	hellofunk: this is how lisps work. eval takes a lisp form, so does the compiler
15:45	andyf	I was wondering about the ?expanded from the outside in? nature of macros recently. Would anything ?go wrong? if one tried to implement macros that ?expanded from the inside out? ?
15:45	andyf	and of course all of those ? or whatever you saw them as should be quotes
15:50	hiredman	I think ideally macros would be expanded as you walk down the tree and then expanded again walk back up, until you reach a steady state
15:50	gfredericks	macros should expand in alphabetical order
15:51	hiredman	so if you have a macro that wants all its args macroexpanded, it can jsut decline to do anything for the down the tree pass, and do all its work on the up the tree pass
15:53	gfredericks	it always seemed like macroexpanding the args was a feature that deserved to be builtin
15:53	andyf	Do Common Lisp macros have the same 'outside in' behavior?
15:54	andyf	Can't say I've ever noticed, as I haven't written any macros fancy enough that I've noticed a difference.
15:58	AeroNotix	andyf: what would be the benefit?
15:58	gfredericks	I wrote a macro for curried/partially-evaluated functions that I think had to macroexpand its arguments first
15:59	andyf	AeroNotix: I haven't thought through it deeply enough to see why, but there was a recent proposal on the Clojure development email list suggesting an alternative to feature expressions, but it had some flaws due to the way that it used macros, because macros expand from the outside in.
16:00	AeroNotix	I don't see the value in feature expressions, either :)
16:00	AeroNotix	They're the same things
16:01	andyf	Do you see a value in source files that can be used for multiple flavors of Clojure?
16:01	AeroNotix	Of course, but you can already do that.
16:01	andyf	You mean cljx?
16:01	AeroNotix	sure
16:01	alandipert	https://gist.github.com/alandipert/47f0badda7bcdb28af87 is another way /cc gfredericks
16:02	AeroNotix	alandipert: madness
16:02	gfredericks	huh what?
16:02	andyf	How could that be madness if cljx is sufficient?
16:03	justin_smith	andyf: I think that would require fexpr support - there was extensive debate about fexprs in lisp in the early '80s, they lost and macros won (partially for compiler optimization reasons - fexprs make a whole lot of optimizations impossible)
16:03	andyf	It's a stone's throw away :)
16:03	AeroNotix	andyf: not necessarily a bad thing
16:03	gfredericks	alandipert: does that relate to me in some way I'm missing?
16:03	AeroNotix	Using a tested preprocessor is better than writing yet another preprocessor.
16:03	AeroNotix	What value do feature expressions have over other methods?
16:16	AeroNotix	anyone^?
16:17	justin_smith	AeroNotix: what other methods?
16:17	justin_smith	~anyone
16:17	clojurebot	anyone is anybody
16:17	AeroNotix	justin_smith: well, cljx, gcc defines :)
16:22	justin_smith	AeroNotix: building is much simpler if all libs are parameterised for clj / cljs in the same way
16:23	justin_smith	unless the expansion happens before constructing the jar I guess
16:23	SagiCZ1	what is cljx?
16:23	justin_smith	SagiCZ1: cljx is a lein plugin for generating clojurescript and clojure from one file
16:24	SagiCZ1	justin_smith: thank you
16:24	SagiCZ1	wait, generating?
16:24	justin_smith	SagiCZ1: it has expressions that expand differently for clj / cljs
16:25	SagiCZ1	oh.. well thats interesting
16:32	zmiller	does anybody know how to setup a clojurescript project.clj with a dev and prod build? I thought I had done it correctly, but I have to delete the target folder before building prod or it fails.
16:33	Glenjamin	zmiller: could you post your project.clj?
16:34	zmiller	can i paste it here?
16:34	justin_smith	zmiller: use refheap.com, or a github gist, sometihng like that
16:34	justin_smith	don't paste it directly here
16:35	zmiller	https://www.refheap.com/96472
16:35	zmiller	sorry, i am new to IRC.
16:39	zmiller	i don't know if it has to do with the fact that i didn't specify source-map or output-dir, but it looked like those were optional
16:41	dnolen	zmiller: dev & prod can't really share the same output folder due to different code emission
16:41	dnolen	zmiller: also there is a #clojurescript channel, probably get answers quicker there
16:41	zmiller	okay, thank you. i will try specifying an output-dir and see whether that works.
16:42	barelyfunctional	Hi, had question around type hints, is it possible to type hint Object array?
16:42	justin_smith	barelyfunctional: what would that accomplish?
16:42	SagiCZ1	barelyfunctional: you cant get any more vague than Object
16:43	justin_smith	yeah, unless I am mistaken, hinting Object would effectively be the same as no hint
16:44	barelyfunctional	I dont want object, I want an array of Objects
16:44	justin_smith	barelyfunctional: ,(into-array Object [1 2 :a :b "whatever"])
16:44	justin_smith	,(into-array Object [1 2 :a :b "whatever"])
16:44	clojurebot	#<Object[] [Ljava.lang.Object;@529088ed>
16:45	justin_smith	barelyfunctional: that's not a type hint though, that's creating an array of Object
16:45	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
16:45	barelyfunctional	sure, but whats the type hint to apply? for a array of ints, it would be ^ints
16:45	justin_smith	barelyfunctional: the hint is pointless
16:45	barelyfunctional	for an array of doubles: ^doubles
16:46	gfredericks	,[(get #{3} 3) (get (transient #{3}) 3)]
16:46	clojurebot	[3 nil]
16:46	gfredericks	^ that's great
16:46	justin_smith	barelyfunctional: but it would be "[Object;" iirc
16:46	justin_smith	needs to be a string
16:46	justin_smith	(since it has a "[" in it)
16:47	barelyfunctional	so its ^"LObject;"
16:47	justin_smith	I don't think the L belongs there
16:47	justin_smith	and you need the [
16:47	justin_smith	[ is part of the name
16:47	justin_smith	arrays are weird
16:48	barelyfunctional	its nasty, i know, vectors are much nicer etc, but i'm working with some performance sensitive code
16:48	justin_smith	but the point of hinting is that it lets Clojure compile better code, and the "[Object;" hint cannot help the compiler generate better code
16:48	justin_smith	if it's performance sensetive you should use something other than Object, because it will need to reflect on every method
16:49	SagiCZ1	barelyfunctional: you have no idea what will be in the array?
16:49	justin_smith	unless the only thing you do is lookup?
16:49	barelyfunctional	the only thing i need to do is lookup by index
16:50	justin_smith	barelyfunctional: than use aget which is totally unambiguous and does not need hinting
16:50	justin_smith	(doc aget)
16:50	clojurebot	"([array idx] [array idx & idxs]); Returns the value at the index/indices. Works on Java arrays of all types."
16:52	gfredericks	is there a correct way to lookup a key in a transient set?
16:54	justin_smith	gfredericks: get will just return nil (as you showed us), and contains? fails... are there other options?
16:54	barelyfunctional	justin_smith: so aget has an inline to clojure.lang.RT/aget
16:55	gfredericks	justin_smith: .get and .contains
16:55	gfredericks	seems weird to have to resort to interop
16:55	barelyfunctional	justin_smith: if the compiler can deduce the context it should able able to inline the access with no casting or instance checking
16:56	justin_smith	barelyfunctional: I think the way array lookup works, it doesn't need reflection anyway
16:56	justin_smith	arrays are not Objects
16:56	gfredericks	arrays are weird
16:57	barelyfunctional	different bytecodes for different array type lookups
16:57	justin_smith	oh really? I didn't realize
16:58	barelyfunctional	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_bytecode_instruction_listings
16:59	barelyfunctional	for instance: daload - load a double from an array
17:00	barelyfunctional	iaload - load an int from an array
17:01	justin_smith	barelyfunctional: as I understand it those are optimizations for primitives, the other version would just auto-box
17:01	gfredericks	uapfload - load a UserAuthenticationProviderFactory from an array
17:01	justin_smith	part of the general "make N versions of this so we support primitives, plus one more for all Objects" pattern
17:02	gfredericks	guys...I made an OOP naming joke...that's supposed to be funny.
17:03	gfredericks	they told me it would be funny.
17:03	barelyfunctional	justin_smith - yeah i agree its ugly, I'll compile two versions, with and without the type hints and look at the bytecode, would probably make a good blog post, thanks for the type hint advice
17:03	justin_smith	gfredericks: HumorNotRecognizedError
17:05	gfredericks	justin_smith: don't you mean RecognitionErrorProviderRegistry.getInstance().findProvider("Humor").errorFor("Recognition")?
17:06	SagiCZ1	,(rand)
17:06	clojurebot	0.011752048560500605
17:07	gfredericks	that's not random look how many 5s and 0s and 6s it ends with
17:07	SagiCZ1	gfredericks: yeah its broken on my machine as well
17:07	gfredericks	it doesn't even have a 3 on it
17:07	SagiCZ1	not random enough
17:08	SagiCZ1	i used it for boolean and it outputed six true's in a row..
17:08	gfredericks	impossible!
17:08	gfredericks	file a ticket
17:08	SagiCZ1	exactly!
17:08	gfredericks	btw the past tense of output is "outpat"
17:09	SagiCZ1	is it? now when i think about it shouldnt it be put/put/put?
17:09	gfredericks	put/pat/pout
17:09	SagiCZ1	you know it's not nice to josh with non-native speakers?
17:11	gfredericks	I actually didn't know you were, but I definitely should have hedged that way on IRC
17:12	gfredericks	I was counting on it being obviously nonsense but that wasn't a good idea
17:12	SagiCZ1	hah.. ok.. i am sorry i pat you in a bad position, no need to apologize
17:14	gfredericks	hah
17:16	hadronzoo	Any ideas as to why this multiple-arity protocol doesn't type check? https://gist.github.com/hadronzoo/7e8d2984707cff23bf60
17:22	samiswellcool	is there an idiomatic way to use clojure as a server and clojurescript as clientside code in the same project? the best way to transpile the clojurescript into the right place etc
17:22	gfredericks	Bronsa: okay fine but Var#{swap,unbind,commute}Root are surely dead code
17:23	samiswellcool	I'm used to javascript/node so I'm not sure the best way to do it with the clojure ecosystem
17:24	hellofunk	samiswellcool: certainly. the chestnut template (among others) does this
17:24	Bronsa	gfredericks: likely, there is a lot of dead code in the clojure java sources
17:25	samiswellcool	I'll have a look at that then. I'm enjoying clojure so far so I'm excited to be able to do the stuff I currently do with javascript
17:25	gfredericks	Bronsa: do you think vars were intended to participate in STM?
17:25	hellofunk	chestnut is heavy on clojurescript tools and includles weasel and figwheel. but it's an easy intro to clojure/clojurescript combo
17:26	hellofunk	samiswellcool: ^ , and also, chestnut uses Om
17:26	Bronsa	gfredericks: no idea, I wasn't here back then :P
17:26	samiswellcool	I've been looking forward to giving Om a try, I use React a lot
17:26	nic77	what can clojure be used for? how long has this been around?
17:27	samiswellcool	I imagine just about anything, it's a general purpose, practical language
17:27	nic77	how did you guys start out learning computer languages?
17:27	havenwood	writing batch scripts to launch games
17:28	gfredericks	nic77: TI-83+ manual
17:28	samiswellcool	found an old Amstrad CPC 464 in my mums cellar and learned amstrad basic usingit
17:28	nic77	i think ive tinkered with batches and some mirc stuff,
17:28	nic77	thanks guys that sounds like the ticket
17:29	nic77	couple good sources :D
17:30	samiswellcool	I don't recommend learning the way I did though haha, it was filled with frustration and limited in scope
17:30	samiswellcool	took me until 6 years or so after that to really get into coding
17:30	gfredericks	I don't think I knew a single person who knew how to program for several years
17:30	nic77	theres a cap on the market with education and often times you can get the book they are going to teach from
17:31	justin_smith	I first did a very simple program when someone in the advanced class showed me in middle school. But I was a D student so I didn't get into any classes that used computers. My dad refused to allow a computer in our house. I didn't learn to use a mouse properly until I was 22.
17:32	nic77	i went to a trade school and mostly found out i didnt need to go the school
17:32	samiswellcool	I was told growing up that I should stop messing about with computers so much and do something that would help me get a job instead
17:32	justin_smith	haha, nice
17:32	samiswellcool	I hope that my parents remember that haha
17:33	nic77	sounds tough samis
17:33	hellofunk	i learned programming on a 1980s calculator by Tandy that was programmable in BASIC. It had 2k of total storage.
17:34	nic77	its strange how the times go
17:34	justin_smith	hellofunk: oh, the miniature version of the tandy 100?
17:34	gfredericks	my favorite thing about the TI-83+ was that variables could only have one letter
17:34	gfredericks	I needed lots of auxiliary documentation on notebook paper
17:34	hellofunk	justin_smith: let me see if i can dig up a photo/model number
17:35	justin_smith	gfredericks: in tandy 100 basic, the variable can have as many letters as you like, but only the first two letters in the variable matter - so pie and poke are two different variables, but pie and pig are the same variable
17:35	justin_smith	well poke can't be a variable because it is a basic keyword, but you get the idea
17:35	gfredericks	justin_smith: that still woulda been nicer
17:36	gfredericks	you name things PFDESCRIPTIVENAME
17:36	nic77	hey samiswellcool maybe your parents werent thinking big enough :D they were exposed and experienced in a small thinking age.
17:36	nic77	context
17:37	samiswellcool	nic77: probably, they've grown with the times since and are very supportive now hah
17:37	nic77	yeah
17:37	nic77	my grandpa invested heavy into solar panels in the 70's
17:37	nic77	about 40 years early
17:37	hellofunk	justin_smith: this is the one http://www.rskey.org/CMS/index.php/7?manufacturer=Radio+Shack&model=PC-7
17:38	nic77	no battle plan survives the first shot
17:38	justin_smith	my dad still thinks programming is silly and I should be acquiring basic hands-on survival skills because civilization is going to collapse into a post-technological dystopia (and I think he actually likes the idea of that happening)
17:38	nic77	justin thats fantastic
17:38	justin_smith	hellofunk: ahh, not the one I was thinking of
17:38	nic77	im like your dad justin, the main difference is i want to know about programming!!!!!!!
17:38	justin_smith	nic77: literally fantastic in the sense of "product of fantasy, having no ties to actual reality"
17:39	nic77	its amazing
17:39	nic77	why have it one way or the other
17:39	hellofunk	justin_smith: in this thing, each new line number was 2 bytes, i learned from experimentation. so my programs were full of combined statements on a single line to save from multi-line memory bloat
17:39	hellofunk	good times
17:39	justin_smith	nic77: because our technological civilization is evil incarnate and you are rooting for nature to have its revenge of course!
17:40	nic77	diversification is what ive seen we need as a people im about 26 and thats been the big ask so far as ive been looking
17:41	nic77	i can make a profit with anything and so far my education has been with my hands all of the guy stuff
17:41	nic77	its not enough
17:41	nic77	i can handle the idea of trying to learn everything i guess
17:41	nic77	just fit it all in
17:42	samiswellcool	I'm liking chestnut, a lot
17:42	samiswellcool	very quick to get started
17:42	mavbozo	justin_smith: according to james mickens, your are already know what to do when society breaks down -> "A systems programmer will know what to do when society breaks down, because the systems programmer already lives in a world without law." https://research.microsoft.com/en-us/people/mickens/thenightwatch.pdf
17:43	justin_smith	mavbozo: lol, nice
17:43	mavbozo	another quote: "The most important person in my gang will be a systems programmer. A person who can debug a device driver or a distributed system is a person who can be trusted in a Hobbesian nightmare of breathtaking scope; a systems programmer has seen the terrors of the world and understood the intrinsic horror of existence."
17:45	nic77	well survival stuff isnt as elaborate and extensive a subject as anything computer
17:45	nic77	it should be observed and noted and perfected mentally
17:46	nic77	then your good
17:46	nic77	no rules to survival, just dont die
17:47	nic77	i grew up on a farm camped alot, i can see the need to know everthing if that was a more permanent situation
17:48	nic77	the more data the better in my opinion statistics paint a nice picture almost a treasure map
18:16	SupermanChest	Hello, everybody
18:19	samiswellcool	SupermanChest: hey
18:20	SupermanChest	I stumbled on this channel whilst searching for a general technology channel.
18:21	pdurbin	is there a general technology channel?
18:21	justin_smith	there's like #programming iirc
18:23	pdurbin	I think there's an algorithms channel too.
20:58	tomvolek	HI all a beginner , what does this produce and why ? (set {:one 1 :two 2 :three 3})
20:58	gfredericks	,(set {:one 1 :two 2 :three 3})
20:59	clojurebot	#{[:three 3] [:two 2] [:one 1]}
20:59	gfredericks	tomvolek: it's a set containing three key-value pairs
20:59	tomvolek	ok that I understand . I dont understadn the result when i type into a repel
20:59	gfredericks	because a the `set` function will dump a collection into a set, and the map you give it can be viewed as a collection of key-value pairs
21:00	gfredericks	you get something different in your repl?
21:00	tomvolek	#{[:two 2] [:three 3] [:one 1]}
21:00	justin_smith	tomvolek: so you mean the ordering?
21:00	tomvolek	yes
21:00	justin_smith	sets and maps are not ordered types
21:00	justin_smith	there are no guarantees about the order of the contents, at all
21:01	tomvolek	oh
21:01	tomvolek	so the order is random ?
21:01	gfredericks	not actually
21:01	tomvolek	why doenst it keep the same order that I inputed ... ?
21:01	justin_smith	not random - it has to do with hash collisions and space efficiency and such
21:01	gfredericks	but there's no reason for you to care what it is
21:01	tomvolek	ok
21:01	justin_smith	tomvolek: because that would be slower, and use more space
21:02	tomvolek	ok if I want order , then I have to create an ordered set then ... no ?
21:02	justin_smith	if you want a set that respects insertion order, I think there is one out there
21:02	justin_smith	but you can use sorted-set-by if you want them to be sorted by some ordering function
21:02	tomvolek	just curious , what do you use Closure for ?
21:03	justin_smith	tomvolek: ordered sets / maps https://clojars.org/org.flatland/ordered
21:03	tomvolek	tx
21:03	justin_smith	tomvolek: I use Clojure for web server backends
21:04	tomvolek	event processing ?
21:04	brainacid	Yes Hi. I want to install Coljure and my sys asks if I want jdk7 or jdk8? how do I choose correctly?
21:04	justin_smith	brainacid: clojure is just a jar file, but it is better to use lein or boot to manage it
21:05	brainacid	There is a difference of 36MB over jdk7
21:05	tomvolek	our company decided to rewrite our platform to be able to scale better using Clojure, I have to learn it fast
21:05	justin_smith	brainacid: install as many jdks as you like, newer is likely better, but you don't need the jdk, a jvm suffices
21:05	justin_smith	tomvolek: oh, that sounds fun and/or intimidating
21:06	tomvolek	@justin_smith our company's product is a VOIP product ..
21:06	brainacid	justin_smith: Thanks for the speedy response.
21:06	justin_smith	brainacid: unlike some programming environments, jdks don't break each other, you can have all the jdks / jvms you like installed without stability problems
21:07	justin_smith	also, jvms are much better about backward compatibility than most platforms, old stuff breaking with a newer vm is very rare, and is considered a bug to be fixed in almost all cases
21:08	brainacid	justin_smith: Thanks for that information. I am very new to Unix and Clojure.
21:08	justin_smith	brainacid: similarly, you can have as many versions of any lib installed as you like - each process will only use one version of a given lib, but you won't greak anything by having them all installed
21:09	justin_smith	but use lein for library deps, it makes everything much easier (unless you have a compelling need to use something else to manage deps)
21:09	brainacid	justin_smith: Very interesting. I wish I had started when I was younger. Oh well I hope I can stick this out... I tend to get frustrated and quit.
21:09	tomvolek	@brainacid , you can have a small script in yoru .bashrc or .profile to set which JDK or Java you want to use .. ie you can have multiple version of jdk installed but use the one u like
21:09	justin_smith	best of luck! there are lots of reasons to love clojure
21:10	justin_smith	tomvolek: brainacid: yeah, that's what I was trying to get at - they don't conflict with one another, you can pick one as you like
21:10	justin_smith	you can even explicitly type in the full path, and for that you don't even need to have the file installed to anywhere in particular
21:10	tomvolek	@brainacid look at a sample => http://paste.scsys.co.uk/459057
21:11	tomvolek	I run mac , and have jdk 1.6, 1.7, 1.8 installed and use the one i want
21:11	tomvolek	they get installed in different directory , u just invoke the one u like
21:12	brainacid	I have success: lein repl user=>
21:12	justin_smith	yeah, lein tends to just work :)
21:12	justin_smith	and then when it doesn't, there are people here or on #leiningen happy to help
21:13	brainacid	Now to sort through the documentation to find the correct introduction.
21:13	justin_smith	introduction to which?
21:13	brainacid	Yes. justin_smith Thank you and tomvolek as well Thanks
21:14	tomvolek	I am using 4clojue.com to learn :) , any other site you guys recommend ?
21:14	justin_smith	the clojure koans are good
21:15	tomvolek	cool
21:15	justin_smith	also there is "clojure from the ground up" and "clojure for the brave and true" for intros
21:15	justin_smith	(web tutorials)
21:15	justin_smith	also, the books, of course
21:15	tomvolek	roger
21:15	justin_smith	~books
21:15	clojurebot	books is book
21:15	justin_smith	err...
21:15	justin_smith	~book
21:15	clojurebot	book is http://www.pragprog.com/titles/shcloj/programming-clojure
21:15	tomvolek	reading the book as of yesterdasy :)
21:16	justin_smith	~books
21:16	clojurebot	books is http://www.pragprog.com/titles/shcloj/programming-clojure
21:16	justin_smith	there are actually multiple factoids, and you don't always get the one you want
21:16	justin_smith	cool
21:24	brainacid	please define factoid justin_smith
21:24	brainacid	i didnt understand
21:24	justin_smith	~factoids
21:24	clojurebot	I don't understand.
21:24	brainacid	~factoid
21:24	clojurebot	Pardon?
21:24	justin_smith	OK, nobody understands!
21:24	brainacid	~fact
21:25	clojurebot	excusez-moi
21:25	brainacid	excused
21:25	justin_smith	sorry, in all seriousness, the bits of info clojurebot has are called factoids
21:25	justin_smith	and when you use on like ~book it will get any of the various definitions clojurebot has for book
21:25	justin_smith	~book
21:25	clojurebot	book is http://clojurebook.com/ http://joyofclojure.com/
21:25	justin_smith	there's more than one
21:25	justin_smith	~book
21:25	clojurebot	book is http://www.pragprog.com/titles/shcloj/programming-clojure
21:27	brainacid	I understand now. Thanks
21:27	brainacid	May you tell me what OS you use?
21:27	brainacid	Linux I use
21:27	justin_smith	I use Ubuntu Linux
21:27	justin_smith	because that's the version I could get pre-installed
21:27	justin_smith	usually I would use debian
21:28	brainacid	Ok. How lon have you used? I started at 15 y/o, 30 now
21:28	brainacid	*long
21:28	brainacid	But I am still very clumsy with it and learn everyday how to be a better user/root on my current hardware.
21:29	brainacid	I hope chit chat is allowed here not only support-focused?
21:29	justin_smith	about 14, 15 years also
21:29	justin_smith	brainacid: the clojure topic takes precedence, but not strictly enforced
21:30	justin_smith	we also have #clojure-offtopic for people who like clojure / this channel but want to ramble about other things freely
21:30	brainacid	Well does the culture of programmer, Unix and general enthusiast sentiment welcomed?
21:30	brainacid	Some may even use the incorrect term 'fanboy'
21:30	justin_smith	of course, but we do have the primary topic of clojure - it does run on every major OS after all
21:31	brainacid	Incorrect at least in my opinion
21:31	brainacid	oh no doubt
21:31	TimMc	justin_smith: Android, Debian, and OS/2!
21:31	brainacid	I plan to ask 'bout clojure ;)
21:31	justin_smith	especially considering that it clojurescript compiles to js, which is just about everywhere
21:32	brainacid	indeed
21:32	brainacid	I was wondering trying that side of clojure
21:32	brainacid	I have never explored web-dev, only html at the very beginning of my learning but nothing with js
21:33	justin_smith	I think it's easier to start with jvm clojure - the tooling around clojurescript is a bit more complex
21:33	justin_smith	and there are more places to make things work, which means more things to go wrong of course
21:33	brainacid	justin_smith: I can figure almost anything out with enough trial and error...so I will agree and start with jvm and learn then maybe move to the complex tooling you say of
21:34	brainacid	I really have no real programming experience but I am seeking for a home for my thinking.
21:36	justin_smith	well, clojure is a great place to start, I think
21:36	nic77	sounds good
21:36	nic77	same here
21:45	brainacid	Well I am reading Eric S. Raymond Art of Unix Programming at the moment, I plant to apply the principles in his book using clojure, at least that is my superficial estimate at the moment.
21:47	brainacid	I have a very bad record of quitting. And I dont believe its a lack of something, it might be simply an excess of some bad habit. I want to "fit in" some community that welcomes eager personaloty
21:47	justin_smith	Clojure and Unix have different ideas and goals in many ways
21:49	brainacid	Well Im sure that I may have the opportunity to have some fun coding, learning to improve my self as a thinker and enhance my toolbox as a technician, lol, with no real formal certifications nor employment...pathetic really since I live under the illusion that I may be able to work as a professional.
21:50	brainacid	But I know that there are so many younger and smarter people out there that can do the job faster and probably cheaper. haha... :\|
21:50	justin_smith	brainacid: I am self taught, after many years of weekend experiments and such I became a professional
21:51	brainacid	justin_smith: Alas! I have hope. I must be truly fortunate to be able to speak here with you.
21:51	brainacid	It is truly possible then
21:51	justin_smith	computers have a nice way of cutting through the bs, and if you can make something work, that shows through regardless of anything else
21:51	brainacid	Exactly
21:51	brainacid	Oh boy someone at last who truly understands my logic
21:52	brainacid	See my dad, a 30 yr IT Tech, continues to say that if I dont have Microsoft certs I wont be able to become an admin
21:53	justin_smith	that's maybe true, if you want to be a Microsoft admin? I don't know. But that's not the case with many programming jobs.
21:54	brainacid	If I could somehow show someone my skill set and maybe be interviewed on a per-task-accoplimshed basis, I might have some chance although I lack much knowledge for large-scale admin
21:55	brainacid	Well then, I must start teaching myself in a better way since I feel so behind the curb.
21:55	nic77	your ahead of me brain
21:55	brainacid	nic77: Hey mate. How so, you say ahead?
21:56	nic77	just starting out no experience with even html
21:56	brainacid	I see. Well my friend if you wish to ask me anything I will try to answer to my best experience.
21:56	nic77	sweet, thanks
21:57	brainacid	Although I know nothing of clojure
21:57	brainacid	I do have ok skill in google research
21:57	nic77	same here, i saw some good resources mentioned earlier though
21:58	brainacid	Im looking with torrentz-eu some books
21:58	brainacid	Also on the Web tutorials
21:58	nic77	im gonna investigate them books at some point in the near future
21:58	nic77	im opposed to the certs aspect of things though
21:58	brainacid	Mostly focused on re-arranging my intentions within so I can attack and flow in my learning process.
21:59	brainacid	Well nic77 I have no money for certs anyways so I will continue this open-source way of life and try to exert myself in an area so I could maybe one day be useful and be part of a support team.
22:00	nic77	theres a cap on the market of education so your expected to play ball and pay up at the moment
22:00	nic77	thats changing though
22:00	nic77	its a paradigm shift coming
22:00	justin_smith	brainacid: nic77: what I suggest is start a project. Take the time to figure out git and use git to manage your version history / branches. Have concrete goals of what you want to develop, and put deadlines on those goals.
22:01	justin_smith	the nice thing is that creates a history of your project's progress, and over a few projects, a history of your learning. And the better projects are the start of a portfolio to show what you can do.
22:06	brainacid	nic77: You want to form a team and we can get together whenver convinient for you since I am pretty much available 24hr. I can start learning git real quick and we can brainstorm and learn together. Whats your ideas about my proposal?
22:07	brainacid	Then we can come here and blame justin_smith for giving us the idea in the first place...:P
22:16	brainacid	quit
22:20	nic77	whered he go
22:22	gfredericks	well he did say he has a very bad record of quitting
22:31	tomjack	suppose I have a function f that maps forms to core.match pattern forms
22:32	tomjack	it seems I can't write (match x (f y) z)
22:32	tomjack	is there another way besides creating a reader literal and doing (match x #f y z)?
22:32	justin_smith	you can make a macro that expands (f y) before the match form is evaluated
22:33	tomjack	macros don't seem to work either
22:33	tomjack	"AssertionError: Invalid list syntax in (foo)"
22:33	justin_smith	they should, if you get the quoting etc. right
22:34	justin_smith	use macroexpand-1 to see how the output of the macro is different from the form that should have been created
22:35	tomjack	https://www.refheap.com/dfd64fab4a031df718e458398
22:36	tomjack	doesn't even macroexpand
22:36	justin_smith	tomjack: in order for a macro to help you, the match call has to be inside the macro
22:36	tomjack	wat
22:36	justin_smith	tomjack: you need to quote the argument to macroexpand
22:36	justin_smith	tomjack: match is a macro
22:37	tomjack	I did quote the argument
22:37	justin_smith	oh, sorry, I did not finish reading the paste
22:37	justin_smith	yeah, the match macro invokes an error before foo can expand
22:37	tomjack	I don't really want to walk a '(match ...) form and replace patterns myself
22:37	tomjack	I want to use match's extensibility
22:37	justin_smith	that's not what I am talking about
22:38	justin_smith	match is a macro, in order to craft args to match, you sometimes need to write a macro that builds the match call you want
22:38	justin_smith	that doesn't have to mean walking a form and replacing things
22:38	justin_smith	but it does mean a bit of massaging of things with your macro so match gets input it can accept
22:38	tomjack	you mean write a macro that expands to a match form?
22:39	justin_smith	right
22:39	tomjack	that could work, but it's not my question :)
22:39	justin_smith	that's the most straightforward option I think
22:39	tomjack	match's extension points don't accomodate a case like this?
22:40	justin_smith	tomjack: they may. I don't know though. I am certain that you can construct what you want with a macro, on the other hand.
22:42	tomjack	a further problem: matching noms
22:43	tomjack	currently I write e.g. (match t [:fn {:binding-nom x :body r}] ...)
22:43	tomjack	ah. so of course my macro can just expand to that. nevermind :)
22:44	tomjack	would be more convenient to just have noms inside the pattern, but that will work
22:44	tomjack	s/noms/ties/g
22:45	justin_smith	you may be thinking of core.lolcat
22:53	tomjack	took me a while to get that :)
22:54	justin_smith	it was a subtle yet very bad joke