#clojure – 2015-01-09

2015-01-09

04:54	Biofobico	.
04:55	clgv	;
04:55	clgv	,;
04:56	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
05:03	TEttinger	,#_;
05:03	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
05:04	rhg135	Is ; not a form?
05:05	rhg135	Anyway I'm out of here, 4am comes too soon
05:08	TEttinger	rhg135, it is not a form, it's ignored, like #_()
05:11	CookedGryphon	does anyone have any hints for debugging core.async? Something is putting a bad value into a channel, but even though I can make the channel explode when the bad value is inserted, the stacktrace is no use because it's all core.async run_state_machine etc.
05:12	CookedGryphon	is there any way I can determine what code is doing the bad put?
05:21	H4ns	what is an efficient way to construct a large map? when i just assoc it together in, say, a reduce, would this create a copy of the map for every item that i insert? is there a way to avoid that and still yield a persistent map in the end?
05:22	slipset	yes, there is, and it's used in transducers (I think)
05:23	slipset	https://clojuredocs.org/clojure.core/transient
05:24	H4ns	ah, nice! thanks!
05:25	CookedGryphon	Are there any clojure core guys about? What's the status of the next release of core.memoize. There's a few things that have been patched in master for months but there hasn't been a release in over a year. Does anyone know if there's something holding back a release?
05:35	TEttinger	H4ns, yeah transients are awesome for performance, but be aware that they do not support the full group of seq/collection fns
05:36	TEttinger	(really just the bare minimum)
05:36	H4ns	TEttinger: i have actual performance issues that i need to deal ith, so they should be fine.
05:37	Biofobico	I just start learning clojure as my 1st language, but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head about how programs are written. I have the felling that clojure code is written inside out. I have no problem starting every line of code with a "(", but i find that many times I have to add parenthesis outside the first one. As example: ((fn [who] (str "Hello, " who "!")) "Neo")
05:37	TEttinger	Biofobico, that's correct. more typically you'd define that fn outside though
05:37	H4ns	i have some 10 million records to read into memory, and that seems to be beyond the comfort zone where straight maps and persistent collections work well.
05:37	Biofobico	Is the any tips for a noob to try to understand better this inside out type of writing?
05:38	TEttinger	,(defn hello [who] (str "Hello, " who "!"))
05:38	clojurebot	#'sandbox/hello
05:38	TEttinger	,(hello "Neo")
05:38	clojurebot	"Hello, Neo!"
05:38	Biofobico	Makes sense now :)
05:39	TEttinger	typically it's better for things you use more than once to have names, but if you don't want to def something, you can use let
05:40	Biofobico	I am following a tutorial and probably that type of syntax will be later on on the tutorial
05:42	TEttinger	,(let [hello (fn [who] (str "Hello, " who "!"))] (hello "Neo"))
05:42	clojurebot	"Hello, Neo!"
05:43	TEttinger	let is very very common in clojure code, and thankfully it's pretty simple (unless it involves destructuring, but that's so cool it's worth it :D )
05:47	Biofobico	so that code is saying that hello = "Hello, " and [who] = "Neo" ?
05:51	TEttinger	Biofobico, yeah, although [who] isn't quite right, who is "Neo" and the [] just shows that the arguments vector is what's inside it
05:52	TEttinger	actually not quite right
05:52	TEttinger	hello is not right away "Hello, !"
05:53	TEttinger	hello is a fn that takes an argument called who, and sticks who in a string with "Hello, " on one side and "!" on the other, and returns the new string
05:53	TEttinger	the tutorial will get to defining fns soon I hope
05:54	TEttinger	but it's the most important early concept in almost any programming language, being able to make abstractions
05:56	Biofobico	thank you for the clarification :)
05:56	TEttinger	another popular textbook (one that's probably harder for beginners), Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs (SICP) refers to programming as the art of giving names to things (paraphrasing here, I haven't read much of SICP)
05:57	TEttinger	clojure has a lot of really well-named functions in its standard library :)
05:57	TEttinger	stuff like frequencies
05:57	TEttinger	,(frequencies [:a :a :a :b])
05:57	clojurebot	{:a 3, :b 1}
05:58	Biofobico	on my online search for clojure tutorials, that book was mentioned a few times but only when one as some clojure experience. Another one was the joy of clojure
05:58	the_frey	tbh SICP is a beginner textbook for CS, not practical programming, one of the 'Hard Way' series of books is maybe a quicker and more hands on intro to how things like assignment and evaluation actually work
05:58	TEttinger	brave clojure I have heard good stuff about, not sure about first language stuff
05:58	the_frey	the O'Reilly Clojure textbook assumes you already know like Ruby or something, a lot of the examples refer to ruby/java
05:59	the_frey	TEttinger: brave clojure I found pretty useful coming across to clj from ruby/python
05:59	TEttinger	don't be afraid to ask questions over IRC though, there's almost always someone online who is able to help
05:59	the_frey	particularly the stuff on bootstrapping an emacs cfg
05:59	the_frey	+1
05:59	the_frey	clojure irc is one of the best behaved and helpful channels I know of
06:00	Biofobico	I only know html and css. i tried ruby, php and python. found ruby and python somewhat similar and php plain alien stuff
06:01	TEttinger	I've been in #java . I recall answering a question, then getting someone soliciting to pay me to do his homework. I may have convinced him to switch majors to law or finance, one of those things that does better the less ethics you have
06:01	Biofobico	then i stumbled on clojure by chance
06:02	Biofobico	and while the syntax is very dif from those languages, it made more sense to me
06:03	the_frey	Biofobico I think the simplicity of how a lot of clojure reduces down to fundamentals probs makes it a good first lang
06:03	the_frey	but it's not 'C-like' as a lot of langs are (e.g. python/ruby)
06:05	Biofobico	my goal is web dev. Since I already know html and css, i decided to learn a prog. language and also javascript
06:06	the_frey	Biofobico for web dev I'd learn ruby or python tbh
06:06	the_frey	there are more jobs
06:06	TEttinger	Biofobico, yeah, the immutable data thing in clojure really helps certain kinds of thinkers reason about programs. if clojure made more sense to you than traditional imperative languages (stuff like java, C, and C++), then it's a good bet the rest of the language will catch on easily
06:06	Biofobico	after i decided to learn clojure, i read that there is clojurescript
06:06	the_frey	also javascript is a programming language :P you can use js for the server side stuff with node.js
06:07	TEttinger	it's really worth it to learn lots of languages, especially at the mid-point of your learning experience
06:08	Biofobico	i know js is a programming language :)
06:09	the_frey	TEttinger I dunno, think it depends on your level of experience, pays to focus aggressively on one first no?
06:09	TEttinger	I kinda think early on you want to learn the fundamentals in one language, not shifting too much, then once you grasp how things are put together you can start again and learn a second language, this time much faster, until you have learned enough different kinds of language that you can just say, "oh, a delegate in C# is just the same thing as a function signature in haskell"
06:09	the_frey	but yeah learning clojure is useful as it's so different, it'll make you a way better programmer
06:09	TEttinger	exactly
06:09	Biofobico	but if i understand it correctly, clojurescript is clojure with some modifications
06:10	the_frey	yep couldn't agree more with what you said there TEttinger
06:10	TEttinger	yeah, clojurescript also uses clojure (the kind you are learning now) during certain kinds of code
06:11	TEttinger	so it helps to know clojure first if you want to write macros in clojurescript, but the two are other than that almost identical
06:11	TEttinger	the standard lib is almost the same
06:13	TEttinger	I'd say for a second language, javascript is your best bet. it's obviously a useful job skill for web stuff, heh, and it's very different from clojure in a lot of ways. it will certainly make you appreciate clojure more :P
06:14	the_frey	+1 JS is a batshit language, but it does teach you how to use functions as data in very practical ways
06:16	TEttinger	but there's a good piece of news if you do learn clojure then javascript; I've been looking at something called Ki that makes clojurescript data structures available to JS (using a lib called Mori written by someone in here I think) and lets you intermingle (map inc [1 2 3]) style stuff with javascript code
06:16	dysfun	can you get the edn reader to annotate line numbers?
06:17	TEttinger	so you could pretty easily bring in code you wrote for clojure into your pure JS programs
06:19	Biofobico	my plan is to get the basics of clojure, then build a website with it and also clojurescript to force me to push myself and also as a motivation factor
06:20	TEttinger	ah cool
06:21	Biofobico	then try to write in js what i wrote in clojurescript
06:21	zot	i'm having strange problems using cider to connect to remote repl (riemann) — this is cider 0.9.0-SNAPSHOT, although it was failing the same with an earlier version. I get a tramp error like this, every time when I specify just the hostname: ControlPath too long
06:21	Biofobico	if that makes any sense as a learning experience
06:21	TEttinger	Biofobico, yeah it does
06:22	zot	if i type in hostname:5557 (port) for the hostname, it then at least prompts me for the port, where I type 5557 again; then it fails during authentication every time, even though my ssh-keys, etc. all appear to be in place. (and they work in another window.)
06:22	zot	any suggestions on how to debug this?
06:22	TEttinger	I'm rewriting a similar program now in F# after writing it in C#, then Scala
06:22	TEttinger	actually then Java, most recently
06:22	dysfun	f# is a horrible language
06:22	dysfun	as is java
06:22	dysfun	as is scala
06:22	dysfun	c# is just java with slightly better designed libraries and a different runtime
06:23	TEttinger	I definitely agree about java and scala, I only use java because it was faster to prototype something with a particular lib
06:23	dysfun	and a few more 'kitchen sink' language features
06:23	dysfun	but scala has the kitchen sink element down
06:24	dysfun	faster than repl driven development?
06:26	mearnsh	TEttinger: there's also fogus' lemonad https://github.com/fogus/lemonad
06:27	wink	dysfun: why do you think repl-driven is always fastest?
06:33	dysfun	compared to the recompile cycle?
06:33	dysfun	unless you've got something like jrebel, no chance.
06:34	wink	compared to other languages where you just write code, tests, and rerun a module/class whatever like 2-3x and it's done
06:34	wink	I mean, I do a lot of python and I don't see myself rerunning stuff so often that I'd prefer a repl
06:34	wink	on clojure I'm just too bad to write it correctly the first few times, then a repl is awesome
06:35	SagiCZ1	wink: well compared to the traditional java cycle.. its a big difference
06:35	SagiCZ1	and AFAIK, python does have REPL so the comparision is moot
06:35	wink	it's not moot if I don't use it
06:37	dysfun	i will say that testing in perl is a joy because perl doesn't rely on the jvm so bootup times are tiny
06:37	SagiCZ1	but python is interpreted.. not compiled.. so there is smaller delay
06:37	dysfun	but autotest is pretty good these days, so i get pretty quick tests
06:37	SagiCZ1	and its not just about speed.. its about experimenting with something you would rather not change in your source code
06:38	dysfun	yeah, the repl is all about playing with things so you can understand how they work
06:39	SagiCZ1	i use it for interactive GUI development.. for example Swing frame does take its sweet time to appear.. if i never close it and just maniuplate the contents in REPL, i can position the frame where i want on my screen and it stays there
06:39	dysfun	i'll often learn more that way than writing tests
06:39	dysfun	or reading the docs. some docs are terrible
06:39	dysfun	i find myself reading other peoples' clojure code a lot
07:41	daniel_	[
07:41	daniel_	]
07:41	atankanow	destructuring in clojure is awesome ... that is all
07:42	daniel_	clojure is awesome
07:42	SagiCZ1	+1
07:42	CmdrDats	(inc atankanow)
07:42	lazybot	⇒ 1
07:43	atankanow	thanks!
07:49	daniel_	(inc atankanow)
07:49	lazybot	⇒ 2
08:07	virmunid	Hello. I was wondering if a function can be referenced in edn? I'm trying to get dependency injection in my ring app.
08:13	magnars	virmunid: you can use require and find-var to look up a function by symbol. See https://github.com/weavejester/ring-server/blob/master/src/ring/server/leiningen.clj#L5-L8
08:15	virmunid	magnars: so I would have the edn configured with strings of the functions like "some.ns/an-impl" then use require and find-vars on that string?
08:15	magnars	aye
08:16	magnars	or a quoted symbol, 'some.ns/an-impl
08:18	virmunid	Cool. thanks.
08:18	virmunid	I'll play around with it. It
08:18	virmunid	It's been this very issue that's prevented me from moving forward on my project for 6 months.
08:19	magnars	virmunid: another way to do DI is by defining a protocol
08:20	slipset	virmunid: have you looked at stuart sierras components?
08:20	virmunid	magnars: I was going to do that. But I'm looking for a Spring-esque approach to configuring the server. I planned on using Environ to get the values, but needed get a component framework around it.
08:20	slipset	https://github.com/stuartsierra/component
08:20	daniel_	dnolen_: your post on javascript modularity made me think we need similar dead code eliminiation on the frontend
08:21	daniel_	s/frontend/css/
08:21	virmunid	slipset: I have. Stuart seems to have wandered away from it. I'm just learning Clojure. The few project I've made available are incredibly simple. Like https://github.com/deusdat/arango-session or https://github.com/deusdat/travesedo
08:21	daniel_	rather than selecting bootstrap modules for example, it would be great to have similar dead code elimination there
08:22	tbaldridge	virmunid: I can tell you that stuart has not abandoned component. I work with him on a daily basis, and we maintain a very large codebase that uses component extensively.
08:23	tbaldridge	for libraries of a certain level of simplicity, updates aren't needed on a regular basis.
08:23	virmunid	tbaldridge: is there a ring example for it? The idea of the lifecycle was appealing. Since I'm new, writing the ring adapter was scary.
08:23	slipset	virmunid: puredanger has this http://tech.puredanger.com/2014/01/03/clojure-dependency-injection/
08:24	slipset	more with what magnars says wrt using protocols
08:25	slipset	I've been thinking about using some ideas that tbaldridge shows in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3PZMIwXN_g
08:25	sveri	Hi, I am building an uberjar with lein uberjar, but at one step the compilation process seems to hang forever without an error message or something similar. Is there a way I can debug this issue? running the same thing in "dev" mode everything is working as expected
08:25	daniel_	i started working on a responsive css framework in clojure/garden
08:26	slipset	where he instead of using functions that require a ctx param, he retuns functions which need a ctx param
08:26	daniel_	perhaps you have a suggestion for extracting selectors from om components, i use standard om dom functions rather than fancy templating
08:26	slipset	so instead of (defn foo [ctx bar] ..)
08:26	slipset	you do (defn foo [bar] (fn [ctx] ...))
08:27	slipset	but I'm not sure how this plays out in the real world outside my head.
08:28	magnars	slipset: sounds a bit like manual partial application :)
08:28	slipset	magnars: yes I guess
08:29	slipset	but since tbaldridge does it that way, I guess it has some merrit :)
08:29	tbaldridge	it's pretty much the state monad
08:29	tbaldridge	I'd say it's "one" way to do it, perhaps not the best, or worst
08:30	slipset	magnars: I guess that in a more involved example the returning function will close over some values from the called functions.
08:31	magnars	yeah, it's an interesting thought
08:36	dnolen_	daniel_: ah right, perhaps Webpack will eventually get there
08:40	clgv	Whoever suggested "Javadoc Search Frame" for Firefox (via Greasemonkey), thank you very much! It has been really useful so far.
08:46	slipset	magnars: I think that was how we built a lisp-parser in lisp in http://folk.uio.no/in211/Gamle/H95/www_docs/
08:47	slipset	imagine, I was using a state monad in the 90's without even knowing about it
08:51	hellofunk	i can't believe you guys are talking about gonads
08:51	hellofunk	i mean really?
08:51	hellofunk	oh sorry i misread
08:52	slipset	that's right, we're talking about burritos
08:52	daniel_	dnolen_: is there a way to get an html string from an om component definition?
08:52	dnolen_	daniel_: pretty sure it does CSS minification
08:52	dnolen_	daniel_: use a React ref + get innerHTML property
08:54	daniel_	ok, thanks
08:56	espinho	.
09:56	sdegutis	Would it be inappropriate to post an announcement in the Clojure mailing list about my new OOP library (https://github.com/sdegutis/oops) ?
09:57	hellofunk	sdegutis: i don't see why not.
09:57	hellofunk	sdegutis: i realize you've gotten some resistance to your ideas but personally i think there is nothing wrong with experimentation. i prefer FP over OOP for a wide range of reasons but that doesn't mean it's not fun to play around with ideas.
09:59	sdegutis	Plus I don't think they're mutually exclusive.
10:00	hellofunk	sdegutis: maybe not for some cases. in general though the benefits of FP to me win out significantly over OOP and i have not yet found a reason to need OOP instead of FP for a given problem (interop with OOP libraries excluded)
10:01	sdegutis	hellofunk: I get the feeling different people mean very different things by OOP
10:02	sdegutis	Personally by OOP I mean "a way to make some arguments implicit on a set of related functions."
10:02	hellofunk	sdegutis: perhaps. i don't even like using custom records via defrecord, that's my bias. organizing logic only around raw, generic data structures is a real time saver in my opinion.
10:06	hellofunk	sdegutis: i spent years doing Objective C and C++, both languages i actually quite enjoyed. but i can tackle problems so much faster and get to the heart of a challenge when all that OOP infrastructure is thrown away
10:06	daniel_	sdegutis: isn't that what higher level functions are for?
10:06	daniel_	higher order*
10:06	sdegutis	daniel_: yeah it's basically a convenience layer around HOF
10:06	sdegutis	daniel_: it wraps them for you with partial, while making the partial'd values easy to access, and all the while being very efficient
10:10	hellofunk	sdegutis: i'd enjoy looking at your code. i applaud all creative ideas that lisping offers. that's kinda the beauty of this language, you can really try all sorts of things
10:10	sdegutis	hellofunk: fwiw the implementation is 15 lines long, and basically a thin wrapper around clojure.core/def{interface,type} ... https://github.com/sdegutis/oops/blob/master/src/oops/core.clj
10:12	sdegutis	I am strongly considering renaming it to not have OOP in the name since that's a very loaded term with a lot of negative connotations in people's minds.
10:20	sdegutis	I've (set! warn-on-reflection true) at the top of my test file, and `lein test` does not output any warnings when it almost definitely should.
10:20	sdegutis	Is that not supposed to work when running tests?
10:21	Bronsa	sdegutis: can you nopaste the namespace file?
10:21	sdegutis	https://gist.github.com/sdegutis/12fac289e5cfd682ce09
10:22	sdegutis	Those are macros which compile down to definterface/deftype things.
10:22	Bronsa	sdegutis: where should it output a warning in your opinion?
10:22	sdegutis	"defmethod kind" is not type-annotated.
10:22	Bronsa	sdegutis: so?
10:23	sdegutis	It returns a string but I never told the compiler that -- is it inferring it?
10:23	Bronsa	sdegutis: no it's returning an Object
10:23	Bronsa	sdegutis: you never use an interop form on the return type of kind that assumes a String
10:23	Bronsa	if you did, you'd get a reflection warning
10:24	Bronsa	sdegutis: e.g. try replacing (.kind spot) with (.substring (.kind spot) 0)
10:24	sdegutis	Oh.
10:25	sdegutis	Thanks :)
10:36	clgv	short maven question: what is the maven equivalent of "lein uberjar"?
10:37	gfredericks	might need a plugin for that
10:37	clgv	oh. :/
10:39	stuartsierra	clgv: http://maven.apache.org/plugins/maven-assembly-plugin/
10:39	dnolen_	Thinking about cutting Om 0.8.0, anything anyone absolutely needs before I do? Speak now or forever hold your peace
10:39	clgv	stuartsierra: thank you.
10:40	stuartsierra	Specifically, the `jar-with-dependencies` descriptor. I'm sure the web has copy-and-paste examples.
10:40	clgv	stuartsierra: it's on a page linked from yours http://maven.apache.org/plugins/maven-assembly-plugin/usage.html
10:43	sdegutis	How do you add a type hint where your deftype is expected?
10:43	sdegutis	First it says no class java/lang/MyType expected. Then I try saying ^foo.foo-test/MyType and it gives a similar error.
10:44	atankanow	clgv: you could also use the maven shade plugin: https://maven.apache.org/plugins/maven-shade-plugin/examples/executable-jar.html ... i've used that in some cases in place of the assembly plugin
10:45	Bronsa	sdegutis: a deftype Foo in ns foo.foo-test has type foo.foo_test.Foo
10:45	sdegutis	Thanks.
10:47	virmunid	stuartsierra: would you make a tutorial showing how to use component with ring for noobs like me?
10:47	weavejes_	virmunid: There are a few different ways people have come up with for integrating the two.
10:48	stuartsierra	virmunid: Others have already made examples.
10:49	virmunid	stuartsierra: can you name the project something else then, 'cause I'm having the hardest time googling for those. "clojure component ring example" brings up a bunch of nonsense.
10:49	clgv	On "mvn package" I get the error that "-source 1.3" is set. does maven set that somewhere?
10:51	csd_	have any of you attempted the problems at cryptopals.com with clojure?
10:53	weavejes_	virmunid: Two approaches I know of are modular and duct.
10:54	weavejester	virmunid: I prefer Duct, because I wrote it ;)
10:54	virmunid	weavejester: that makes me more confident, :)
10:54	stuartsierra	First Google result I get has many examples https://groups.google.com/d/topic/clojure/12-j2DeSLEI/discussion
10:56	virmunid	staurtsierra: for my own edification, what was your query?
10:57	stuartsierra	virmunid: https://www.google.com/search?q=clojure%20component%20ring%20example
10:58	virmunid	well don't I feel sheepist
10:59	stuartsierra	Also examples at http://www.uswitch.com/tech/more-open-source-clojure-systems-please/
11:00	stuartsierra	(not found on google, but it should be)
11:01	EvanR-work	is there a way to
11:01	EvanR-work	get an exception backtrace as a string
11:01	gfredericks	what do you want it to look like?
11:02	gfredericks	,(->> (Exception.) .getStackTrace seq pr-str)
11:02	clojurebot	"(#<StackTraceElement sandbox$eval49.invoke(NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)> #<StackTraceElement clojure.lang.Compiler.eval(Compiler.java:6768)> #<StackTraceElement clojure.lang.Compiler.eval(Compiler.java:6731)> #<StackTraceElement clojure.core$eval.invoke(core.clj:3076)> #<StackTraceElement clojure.core$eval27$fn__28$fn__38.invoke(NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)> ...)"
11:02	hellofunk	i'm doing a 4clojure problem and am curious how you can test if somethign is a set without using set? predicate
11:02	gfredericks	,(supers (class #{}))
11:02	stuartsierra	(with-out-str (.printStackTrace e out*))
11:02	clojurebot	#{java.util.Collection clojure.lang.Counted clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection clojure.lang.IMeta clojure.lang.Seqable ...}
11:02	hellofunk	gfredericks: set? and class are not allowed in the problem
11:03	gfredericks	what about instance?
11:03	virmunid	stuartsierra: thanks
11:03	gfredericks	sounds like a weird problem
11:03	hellofunk	instance? and Class are not allowed either
11:03	hellofunk	nor is getClass
11:03	gfredericks	okay then this sounds like a weird puzzle
11:03	hellofunk	gfredericks: agreed, but i'm curious.
11:03	gfredericks	that doesn't have very much to do with normal clojure usage
11:04	gfredericks	perhaps (= #{} (empty the-set))
11:04	EvanR-work	is there a way to dump all the exceptions information as a string
11:04	hellofunk	gfredericks: i like that
11:04	gfredericks	EvanR-work: well an arbitrary exception could have information stored in arbitrarily strange ways
11:05	EvanR-work	hmm.
11:05	clgv	stuartsierra: got it building. thank you again!
11:05	EvanR-work	im definitely throwing an ex-info in case something doesnt validate
11:05	EvanR-work	but results of bugs or I/O errors would be nice to see
11:05	EvanR-work	in my debug log
11:11	EvanR-work	in (with-out-str (.printStackTrace e out)) what is e
11:12	pyrtsa	,(doc *e)
11:12	clojurebot	"; bound in a repl thread to the most recent exception caught by the repl"
11:12	hellofunk	why does (reverse '(1 2 3)) work, but (reversible? '(1 2 3)) report false ?
11:12	EvanR-work	nice
11:12	arohner	hellofunk: you could look at the behavior of conj?
11:12	arohner	(-> x (conj :a) (get :a) (= :a)
11:12	EvanR-work	,(doc reversible?)
11:13	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns true if coll implements Reversible"
11:13	hellofunk	EvanR-work: i see, so you can reverse something even if it is not from Reversible.
11:13	EvanR-work	it begs the question what Reversible is
11:13	pyrtsa	Reversible means (almost-)constant-time reversible.
11:13	EvanR-work	i usually have to look at the source for this
11:14	EvanR-work	so FastReversible
11:15	arohner	EvanR-work: http://begthequestion.info/
11:15	arohner	:-p
11:16	andyf_	arohner: Nice web page.
11:16	arohner	andyf_: I didn't write it, but I use it far too often
11:16	arohner	maybe I should write a BegsTheQuestion twitter bot
11:17	andyf_	I will pass it on. Fight the good fight, man.
11:17	csd_	Why does this code return the error message "Illegal base64 character a"? https://www.refheap.com/95918
11:17	arohner	andyf_: there's also this, if you're into that sort of thing: http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=693
11:17	hellofunk	arohner: the abuse of the phrase "begs the question" has proliferated in the last 8 years or so. i once argued to a screenwriter that he was using it incorrectly, and that it doesn't mean what people think it means. he said, "it does now"
11:21	gfredericks	question-begging: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2290
11:27	EvanR-work	arohner: haha... seems fine to me!
11:28	arohner	:-)
11:28	EvanR-work	not even wrong
11:30	EvanR-work	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: printStackTrace for class clojure.lang.Var$Unbound
11:30	EvanR-work	this is when i tried to use (.printStackTrace e out*)
11:30	EvanR-work	inside an exception handler
11:30	justin_smith	gfredericks: excellent post, I love those guys
11:30	justin_smith	(inc gfredericks)
11:31	justin_smith	$ping lazybot
11:31	justin_smith	:(
11:31	gfredericks	justin_smith: yeah me too
11:31	llasram	(doc *e)
11:31	clojurebot	"; bound in a repl thread to the most recent exception caught by the repl"
11:31	EvanR-work	oh
11:32	EvanR-work	back to the drawing board
11:32	EvanR-work	</incorrect-usage>
11:33	hellofunk	whoever made this site has a nice sense of humor: http://clojurescriptkoans.com/#conditionals/8
11:39	llasram	EvanR-work: What are you trying to do?
11:39	EvanR-work	justin_smith: i cant help but expect the conclusion of that blog to be the conclusion for a great many "misused" phrases...
11:39	EvanR-work	llasram: well, just debug log an exception, without crashing
11:39	llasram	In an exception handler you should have the exception itself, bound to the identifier provided as an argument to the (catch) form
11:41	llasram	EvanR-work: And tools.logging functions all have forms which take an exception and will log the associated stack trace
11:41	EvanR-work	yeah i have (catch Exception e (log/debug (str e "\n" (pr-str (seq (.getStackTrace e))))))
11:42	EvanR-work	which is ok
11:42	justin_smith	EvanR-work: but the level of detail it uses in letting us know how it got to be so misused is awesome
11:42	clgv	EvanR-work: how about clojure.stacktrace/print-stack-trace?
11:44	EvanR-work	clgv: well, you mean with-out-str ?
11:47	clgv	EvanR-work: (log/error (with-out-str (print-stack-trace e)))
11:47	clgv	,(doc with-out-str)
11:47	clojurebot	"([& body]); Evaluates exprs in a context in which out is bound to a fresh StringWriter. Returns the string created by any nested printing calls."
11:47	clgv	,(with-out-str (println "abc"))
11:47	clojurebot	"abc\n"
11:47	clgv	,(count (with-out-str (println "abc")))
11:47	clojurebot	4
11:48	EvanR-work	i know about this, but i want the text of the exception too
11:48	clgv	EvanR-work: that is what `clojure.stacktrace/print-stack-trace` does
11:49	clgv	try the full logging example above ;)
11:49	EvanR-work	alright
11:50	sdegutis	Aw, type hints of a class can't be used in the definition (deftype) of that selfsame class?
11:50	sdegutis	Blast!
11:50	clgv	usually I use print-cause-trace to have more information
11:51	clgv	sdegutis: this would only help with reflection warnings in inline protocol/interface implementations. nothing more
11:51	EvanR-work	very nice
11:51	clgv	sdegutis: you can't "type" deftype fields other than the supported primitive types
11:51	EvanR-work	hijacking the standard output stream seems like a very php way to do it but it works
11:52	Bronsa	sdegutis: they can be used
11:52	Bronsa	,(defprotocol p (f [_ _]))
11:52	clojurebot	p
11:52	clgv	EvanR-work: it is thread-local hijacking afaik, so it is ok for that task
11:53	Bronsa	,(deftype x [a] p (f [_ ^x o] (.a o)))
11:53	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Can't find matching method: f, leave off hints for auto match., compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
11:53	Bronsa	,(deftype x [a] p (f [_ _ ^x o] (.a o)))
11:53	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Can't define method not in interfaces: f, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
11:53	Bronsa	uh.
11:53	clgv	EvanR-work: but an outputstream or writer to pass to clojure.stacktrace functions would be a better way, sure
11:54	Bronsa	well sdegutis, apparently not in the argvec but you can use them elsewhere
11:54	EvanR-work	yeah i didnt think it was unsafe
11:54	Bronsa	,(deftype x [a] p (f [_ o] (.a ^x o)))
11:54	clojurebot	sandbox.x
11:54	Bronsa	^ there you go
11:54	clgv	Bronsa: he meant the field declarations.
11:55	Bronsa	clgv: uhm, that's not how I read it but you might be right
11:56	clgv	Bronsa: I used the info that it works in all implementation parts except in the field definition vector, so that is what remains, though he didnt say so clearly
11:56	timvisher	so who wants to straighten me out RE macros? :) https://gist.github.com/timvisher/f580f8ee19bdfcf7232a
11:56	timvisher	am i going down a rabbit hole? is this not possible?
11:57	timvisher	i could do this fairly well with a function if i was willing to wrap everything in a [] and "" each line, but i thought i should be able to do it with macros and it would make maintaining the levels _slightly_ nicer.
11:57	clgv	timvisher: the dots are problematic
11:58	clgv	timvisher: and ^ probably as well
11:58	Bronsa	TimMc: and as the exception tells you, 1a is not a valid clojure literal
11:59	Bronsa	timvisher*
11:59	timvisher	Bronsa: why does it need to be? i was expecting to able to process it into a string but instead it fails before i can get to it, it seems
11:59	clgv	timvisher: you can try via (defmacro deflevel [& args]), if that fails you have characters that er not accepted by the clojure reader
11:59	Bronsa	timvisher: what you pass to a macro must still be a valid clojure form
11:59	timvisher	ok
11:59	timvisher	that makes more sense
12:00	clgv	,(defmacro deflevel [& args])
12:00	clojurebot	#'sandbox/deflevel
12:00	Bronsa	timvisher: macros consume clojure forms, it's not a string preprocessor like in C
12:00	timvisher	so in other words, i'm buying almost nothing by using a macro here, as usual. :\
12:00	clgv	,(deflevel .)
12:00	clojurebot	nil
12:00	clgv	,(deflevel \|....\|)
12:00	clojurebot	nil
12:00	clgv	damn. that'll work ;)
12:00	timvisher	lol. i'm still committed to one day find a use for these things :)
12:00	Bronsa	,(deflevel ^)
12:00	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: )>
12:01	clgv	ok so not the dots but ^
12:01	Bronsa	timvisher: well if you have written more than a hello world in clojure you have definitely used macros before
12:01	clgv	I remember it failing for relative filenames "../bla.txt" probably because thats not a valid symbol
12:02	Bronsa	,'../bla.txt
12:02	clojurebot	../bla.txt
12:02	clgv	,(deflevel ../bla.txt)
12:02	clojurebot	nil
12:02	timvisher	Bronsa: i mean a macro that i've written.
12:02	timvisher	:)
12:02	Bronsa	clgv: the gotcha with symbols starting with . is that they get macroexpanded into the . special form when used in "invoke" position
12:02	Bronsa	clgv: except if they're macros, like `..` :/
12:04	arohner	is there a good way to stop an a/pipeline, other than stopping the JVM?
12:04	llasram	timvisher: Clojure strings can contain newlines -- any reason you don't want to just make them strings?
12:04	arohner	oh, I guess I can a/close! the input
12:04	tbaldridge	close the input channel
12:05	arohner	tbaldridge: yeah. it'd be nice if there was a blocking version so C-c from the repl worked
12:06	timvisher	llasram: if you make them strings you loose their rectangular nature
12:07	timvisher	either by forcing you to avoid auto-indent and place the contents of the string all the way on the left of the file, or by embedding \n, unless i'm missing something
12:09	hiredman	/win 15
12:10	andyf__	timvisher: you might like clojure.string/join "\n" [ "line1" "line2" ...] except with each line string on separate line
12:12	timvisher	andyf__: yep. turns out i don't even need to go that far. these things used to be txt files on disk, so would need to read them, split them for \n, and parse them out that way. there's a very natural representation (which allows use of regular fns) which just wraps all the lines in "" which then avoids the split and disk read steps
12:14	[blake\|	There's a more concise way to put this, and I keep forgetting what it is:
12:14	[blake\|	,(if (empty? a-str) "default" a-str)
12:14	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: a-str in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
12:14	[blake\|	&(if (empty? a-str) "default" a-str)
12:14	kryft	I see that Prismatic's schema is still in alpha; how mature is it in practice? I need to validate some data, and I'm trying to decide on a library
12:14	[blake\|	&(let [str ""] (if (empty? a-str) "default" a-str))
12:16	[blake\|	&(+ 1 1)
12:16	[blake\|	Uh oh...did I break clojurebot?
12:18	timvisher	meh. not terrible… https://gist.github.com/timvisher/f580f8ee19bdfcf7232a
12:18	timvisher	thanks all :)
12:18	andyf__	And now you have to pay for it :)
12:18	[blake\|	I broke it, I bought it.
12:26	gfredericks	kryft: I think prismatic is a good choice
12:26	seangrove	dnolen_: Let me know if you'd like some help. I don't know much about the Closure module system, but if you want to create some issues and assign them to me, I'd be happy to do a deep dive on them
12:27	kryft	gfredericks: I'm just wondering how mature it is in practice
12:27	dnolen_	seangrove: there's already a module ticket open, I might take a look at it shortly
12:28	kryft	gfredericks: (Given that they state that it's alpha)
12:28	gfredericks	kryft: probably as mature as anything else
12:28	kryft	Ok, thanks
12:28	justin_smith	kryft: prismatic makes solid stuff
12:29	gfredericks	I love how par-compile with prismatic graph can give you exceptions that are buried in a stack of j.u.c.ExecutionException
12:30	gfredericks	I just got this: #<java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.net.NoRouteToHostException: No route to host>
12:31	gfredericks	(iterate #(.getCause %) e)
12:31	hiredman	(doc clojure.stacktrace/root-cause)
12:31	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
12:31	hiredman	clojurebot: idiot
12:31	clojurebot	No entiendo
12:32	gfredericks	well I might not want the root cause, just the one underneath the j.u.c.EEs :)
12:43	justin_smith	gfredericks: the drawback of having a custom dispatch / coordination of executing tasks, core.async sees the same problem, and I would be surprised if manifold didn't have these issues too
12:45	gfredericks	wouldn't be hard for graph to mitigate though
12:45	justin_smith	oh?
12:45	gfredericks	I could submit a PR myself but instead I am chaflortling on IRC about it
12:46	gfredericks	justin_smith: yeah depending on exactly what behavior you want; naively you could just unwrap every exception you get on dereffing
12:46	gfredericks	I'm saying the library can fix it for the user
12:46	dnolen_	seangrove: I've marked the issues that I think are important
12:46	dnolen_	seangrove: reflecting through the compiler to emit the underlying arities would be a good noe
12:46	dnolen_	s/noe/one
12:54	zB0hs	how can i evaluate part of a form but have the rest of the form not evaluate
12:54	zB0hs	'[fun1 fun2 fun3] but only evaluate fun3
12:55	mgaare	zB0hs: with a macro
12:56	justin_smith	zB0hs: evaluate or invoke? ##((nth [+ - * /] 2) 3 4)
12:57	[blake\|	I have some code inside a let statement inside a function that's being executed when I load the file into the REPL.
12:57	[blake\|	That =has= to mean that function's being called somewhere immediately, doesn't it?
12:57	justin_smith	[blake\|: yeah, add a stack trace print to see what called it
12:58	justin_smith	,((nth [+ - * /] 2) 3 4)
12:58	clojurebot	12
12:58	[blake\|	justin_smith: I thought so but can I do a stack trace without an exception? Just "what's the stack right now"?
12:59	espinho	can anyone point me a good tutorial/resource for website development please? Im new to programming and im having a hard time finding it. thanks
13:00	[blake\|	justin_smith: I guess I just throw the exception right there?
13:00	justin_smith	[blake\|: you could do an (assert false), sure
13:01	justin_smith	but you can also get the current stack trace, one moment, looking up how to do it again
13:02	justin_smith	(map str (.getStackTrace (Thread/currentThread)))
13:02	justin_smith	that will just give you the trace as a lazy-seq of strings
13:02	[blake\|	Thanks.
13:02	[blake\|	(inc justin_smith)
13:03	justin_smith	no bots!
13:03	[blake\|	No peace!
13:03	justin_smith	oh wait clojurebot is actually working
13:03	hellofunk	(inc clojurebot)
13:03	justin_smith	haha
13:04	[blake\|	So, my routes are being called somewhere via Compojure when loading it into the file. I guess...I shouldn't worry?
13:07	[blake\|	Er, loading it into the REPL.
13:09	[blake\|	espinho: There are a lot of them. I haven't found any of them very useful.
13:09	[blake\|	espinho: https://github.com/weavejester/compojure/wiki can get you started.
13:13	justin_smith	espinho: for learning programming with clojure, aphyr's "clojure from the ground up" is pretty well thought out
13:14	justin_smith	https://aphyr.com/tags/Clojure-from-the-ground-up
13:14	espinho	blake: Thank you. I have a lot of trouble learning from just writing pieces of code. I need to build something while learning to see results (if that makes any sense), like when i was learning html/css
13:14	abaranosky	if I wanted to get humanized timestamps in CLJS what's a good way to do that? Like "3 days ago" for example)
13:15	espinho	justin_smith> thank you
13:16	[blake\|	espinho: I'm the same way, but I haven't found any such instruction. I'm hoping to write something along those lines this year.
13:16	hellofunk	espinho: the 4clojure site is also a great, though challenging and patience-requiring method for becoming sophisticated at clojure, especially if you opt-in to the "code golf" and looks at others' solutions
13:16	abaranosky	in other words, is the best way to do this to use externs and MomentJS? https://github.com/moment/moment
13:17	[blake\|	Yeah...although with 4Clojure and most of the books and sites, I've found I need to use them a little, go do stuff, come back and review... Dabble in them all.
13:17	hellofunk	4clojure is like practicing scales for a musician
13:18	nullptr	imo 4clojure is better for brain conditioning than learning clojure in a practical way
13:18	hellofunk	4clojure is particularly good for learning all the tricks you can use to mangle collections
13:18	nullptr	you could complete 4clojure and still have no idea how to add a lib in lein for example
13:19	hellofunk	nullptr: correct. 4clojure is stricly about learning the language philosophy and syntax
13:19	espinho	Tried 4clojure, but it was a pain to me since I really dont know clojure and this is my first programming language
13:19	hellofunk	*strictly
13:19	hellofunk	espinho: yes some basics are required before you jump into its exercises, though the "elementary" questions should go well with an introductory book on the subject
13:19	nullptr	i'm hesitant to send new people to 4clojure, it's too easy to get stuck
13:20	nullptr	requires pre-commitment to clojure
13:20	espinho	and since my background is building sites, I was hoping to find a web development resource that could teach me the language while building something
13:21	hellofunk	espinho: there is also that free online book Clojure for the Brave and True or something like that. it's a decent introduction to most of the language
13:22	hellofunk	espinho: cemerick has a youtube video that shows a basic web app built from scratch that is worth of a beginner
13:22	espinho	hellofunk:thank you.
13:22	hellofunk	*worthy
13:23	espinho	hellofunk: cemerick? Excuse my ignorance but i don't know what it is.
13:23	hellofunk	espinho: it's a dude. a cool dude. a smart dude.
13:24	hellofunk	espinho: a dude who has done a bunch for all of us.
13:24	espinho	hellofunk: oh ok :)
13:24	hellofunk	espinho: among other things, also one of the authors of the best clojure book out there right now by O'Reilly. but many of us are using his libs in our production web apps
13:26	espinho	hellofunk: I see. found the tube video, but is from 2012.
13:27	hellofunk	espinho: that's ok.
13:28	espinho	hellofunk: will check it later on then. thank you :)
13:28	hellofunk	espinho: also, while less on specifics and more on general language concepts, the ClojureTV youtube channel is a great way to be exposed to the people and tools that make this community great. and you will get the "big picture" on how it all works
13:33	espinho	hellofunk: Never thought that the clojure irc peeps would be so helpful. It's a great contrast to some other language channels.
13:34	hellofunk	espinho: i totally agree
13:34	hellofunk	espinho: if i were to get all philosophical, i would say that it is because the deeper inner beauty of the language has brought out the best in all of us
13:35	espinho	hellofunk: :)
13:36	justin_smith	I once thought it had to do with Clojure's relative underdog status, but people on some other niche language channels are jerks, so it isn't that
13:37	hellofunk	justin_smith: i might be making this up, but in most communities, a lot "trickles down" from some source somewhere. and i feel that the attitude of the core language's engineers, and their perspective and tone, has shaped the phenomenon for everyone
13:38	justin_smith	hellofunk: that's a very good guess
13:39	exaptic	yeah definitely part of why i switched from a different FP language community. their irc channel was pretty toxic
13:40	espinho	I've "tried" other languages before i discover clojure and it's weird syntax, but in every channels of those languages there always more than one person bashing me dow for being a noob by asking my noob questions.
13:41	EvanR-work	can you get keyword args that are required like in ruby
13:41	exaptic	maybe they're mad because their language is too hard to explain =)
13:42	EvanR-work	which doesnt explain why no body is noob bashing in here
13:43	hellofunk	EvanR-work: you mean fn args that must be a keyword only?
13:43	justin_smith	EvanR-work: you can do it manually via a :pre condition, and one could make a macro for it fairly easily
13:43	EvanR-work	hellofunk: i mean getting the effect of "WRONG NUMBER OF ARGS!!!!" but for keyword args "KEYWORD ARG FOO NOT PROVIDED!!!"
13:43	EvanR-work	ok
13:43	j201	espinho: well, the irritation with noobs is often because they don't rtfm or ask bad questions (unclear, posting hundreds of line of irrelevant code, etc.)
13:44	gfredericks	we are nice because matz is nice
13:44	sdegutis	Is it standard procedure to upload your Leiningen web app's entire source code to production and just run it via `lein` on the production server?
13:44	EvanR-work	im on a tight schedule so ill just let nils slip through
13:44	justin_smith	something like: (fn [& {:keys [a b c]}] {:pre [a b c]} ...)
13:44	tbaldridge	sdegutis: no, infact there are some problems doing it that way
13:44	tbaldridge	I normally recommend lein uberjar and upload the jar
13:45	sdegutis	Okay, that's what I do, but I got the impression it's not the typical way.
13:45	sdegutis	(i.e. I upload uberjars)
13:45	justin_smith	,((fn [& {:keys [a b c]}] {:pre [a b c]} (+ a b c)) :a 0 :b 1 :c 2)
13:45	clojurebot	3
13:45	justin_smith	,((fn [& {:keys [a b c]}] {:pre [a b c]} (+ a b c)) :a 0 :b 1)
13:45	clojurebot	#<AssertionError java.lang.AssertionError: Assert failed: c>
13:46	ssideris	EvanR-work: :pre conditions are the quickest way to achieve this, but they throw AssertionErrors when they fail, not Exceptions, so you don't get a stacktrace in some cases, which can make things hard to track down
13:46	justin_smith	it works, but the message could use work
13:46	justin_smith	ssideris: yeah, that too
13:46	gfredericks	there's no good way to add functionality to [de]fn & friends without a proliferation of one-off wrapper macros
13:47	gfredericks	like other kinds of preconditions
13:47	gfredericks	I'm not sure how it could be any better though
13:47	ssideris	EvanR-work: I generally use prismatic's schema, but it may be overkill for you
13:47	gfredericks	other than some weird kind of macro middleware
13:47	EvanR-work	yes that would work
13:47	justin_smith	EvanR-work: also, required keys are straightforward to express using prismatic/schema
13:47	EvanR-work	but its a lot more typing than this just being the default
13:47	EvanR-work	but i think keyword args are just syntax for passing in a map of options
13:48	justin_smith	EvanR-work: indeed they are
13:48	gfredericks	what do those prismatic fnks do if a key is missing
13:48	[blake\|	espinho: No exaggeration: Best language channel I've been in.
13:48	ssideris	EvanR-work: don't forget about the :or part of the destructuring in case you have/want defaults
13:48	EvanR-work	yes im using that for one arg
13:48	[blake\|	espinho: Which is good because Clojure is...demanding.
13:48	gfredericks	ooh they throw an exception
13:48	EvanR-work	the others, which dont have defaults, nil isnt the default
13:49	gfredericks	okay I recommend plumbing & fnk for this :)
13:49	EvanR-work	in ruby theres a difference between arg provided nil and not provided
13:49	gfredericks	EvanR-work ^
13:49	EvanR-work	good to know
13:49	gfredericks	probably not a good fit for everything but pretty nice when it fits
13:49	gfredericks	especially when using graph
13:50	justin_smith	EvanR-work: (fn [& {:keys [a b c] :as provided}] (contains? provided a))
13:52	espinho	blake: demanding is the right word. Writing code from inside out, makes my little brain hurt.
13:52	EvanR-work	is the & necessary
13:53	justin_smith	EvanR-work: without the & you just get a map as an arg
13:53	ssideris	EvanR-work: & is for varargs
13:53	justin_smith	which is actually something I prefer
13:53	gfredericks	espinho: you'll like -> & friends then
13:53	justin_smith	but if you want ruby/python style keyword args you want &
13:53	ssideris	justin_smith: yeah, varargs make apply messy
13:53	EvanR-work	what syntax is that
13:53	justin_smith	ssideris: indeed, and I never used & {:keys ...} myself
13:54	justin_smith	EvanR-work: destructuring
13:54	[blake\|	espinho: Yep. And it never goes away. You learn one way of thinking, and there's always new challenge around the corner. A new simplification, if you will.
13:54	EvanR-work	justin_smith: ... what is the no-& call syntax?
13:54	ssideris	EvanR-work: with varargs: (my-fun 6 :flag true :x 4) without (my-fun 6 {:flag true :x 4})
13:55	EvanR-work	weird
13:55	EvanR-work	using no &
13:55	ssideris	without & you just pass a map
13:55	ssideris	that's all
14:03	justin_smith	EvanR-work: the point is that it is just a destructuring of the arg, same as you could use in a let block or a loop binding
14:03	EvanR-work	yes i see that now
14:04	EvanR-work	and i used a precondition that just repeated all my keys
14:04	EvanR-work	better than listing a bunch of assertions
14:26	justin_smith	another option would be {:pre [(every? some? [a b c])]} if you might want a false value for some keys
14:29	Torkable	do you guys have a "start here" for noobs
14:30	pbalduino	hi there. happy new year everybody.
14:30	seangrove	Torkable: This might be interesting https://github.com/swannodette/lt-cljs-tutorial
14:30	seangrove	It's ClojureScript, but same general concepts
14:31	justin_smith	Torkable: noob to clojure, or clojure+programming?
14:31	Torkable	noob to clojure
14:31	justin_smith	there is the free book online, clojure for the brave and true
14:32	mearnsh	Torkable: what's your background?
14:32	mearnsh	hi pbalduino
14:32	justin_smith	Torkable: and you should probably be using lein to manage libs and build code and run repls
14:32	Torkable	I've been looking at ports of transducers and channels to javascript lately and its got me interested in learning clojure itself
14:32	justin_smith	Torkable: oh, in that case a cljs-centric approach would actually be helpful then
14:32	Torkable	mearnsh, javascript programmer day job, tinker with haskell and other FP langs for fun
14:33	Torkable	justin_smith, ay, I ran into the brave and true book earlier today and bookmarked it
14:34	mearnsh	i guess seangrove's suggestion is pretty good then
14:35	Torkable	is light table recommended?
14:35	Torkable	its hard for me to break away from vim
14:35	lodin	Torkable: If you already know FP then perhaps you can just learn the very basics and then scan the cheatsheet several times every day. By the very basics I mean def, defn, and function application.
14:35	mearnsh	joy of clojure is good if you want a book that goes deep fast
14:35	Torkable	also I believe I saw that light table has been abandoned
14:36	the_frey	I found lighttable buggy
14:36	the_frey	emacs has worked well
14:36	sdegutis	LT was an enthusiastically embraced experiment. I think he moved on to a new experiment.
14:36	Torkable	I asked because the tut linked is specifically for LT
14:36	stuartsierra	Use the editor you're most comfortable with.
14:36	Torkable	k
14:36	sdegutis	ibdknox: is LT still active?
14:37	hellofunk	Torkable: very basic intro exercises you can do right online to learn clojurescript basics: http://clojurescriptkoans.com/
14:37	sdegutis	http://www.chris-granger.com/2014/10/01/beyond-light-table/
14:38	Torkable	cool, thanks for the tips guys :)
14:38	sdegutis	"Eve" is the next step in the evolution of Light Table.
14:38	mearnsh	Torkable: check out fireplace.vim
14:39	sdegutis	They're both projects to make programming simple and accessible for the computer illiterate.
14:39	mearnsh	Torkable: also https://github.com/magomimmo/modern-cljs
14:39	sdegutis	I personally want something like Eve but for fire-fighting.
14:39	sdegutis	I'd love to do a little fire-fighting without having to go through training and have a commitment and sch.
14:39	sdegutis	*such
14:39	lodin	What happened to Aurora?
14:40	stuartsierra	I think Aurora was renamed to Eve.
14:41	Torkable	mearnsh, fireplace looks great :)
14:41	abaranosky2	has anyone seen Safari hanging using CLJS? I commented out all the code that executes in the initial "main" function yet when I go to our page in Safari it hangs.
14:41	llasram	sdegutis: The problem is that the programming equivalent of what you are describing already does exist, is widely deployed, and is named "Excel"
14:41	pbalduino	when I use :gen-class without parameters inside ns nothing happens. Is it the expected behaviour? (ns foo.bar (:gen-class))
14:42	llasram	sdegutis: Providing better tools would be a huge improvement
14:42	abaranosky2	pbalduino: that looks fine to me
14:42	timvisher	abaranosky2: have you inspected what's happening?
14:44	abaranosky2	timvisher: in the console nothing is printed!
14:44	pbalduino	abaranosky2: I was expecting some AOT and a .class file generated, but really nothing happened.
14:44	timvisher	i'd put some (.log js/console "got here") in the source code then
14:44	timvisher	i'm assuming the network requests are succeeding?
14:44	abaranosky2	timvisher: let me see for sure
14:45	sdegutis	llasram: meh
14:45	lodin	llasram: There seems to be some kind of dataflow trend.
14:46	swedishfish	I am trying clojure.test and have setup test-selectors in my project.clj. :all, :integration, :default. And :default complement :integration. Trouble is that when I run lein test, fixtures from integration namespace is actually executed during the :default test suite. Is there a way around this?
14:46	sdegutis	llasram: I'm hesitant to believe world-changing ideas are both executable and world-changing.
14:46	pbalduino	cemerick: \o/
14:47	abaranosky2	timvisher: I load up "http://localhost:8001/" and the whole dang developer console becomes unresponsive!
14:47	abaranosky2	lol
14:47	timvisher	abaranosky2: are you guys using core.async?
14:48	justin_smith	swedishfish: fixtures should be defined per-namespace, I don't think selector-specific fixtures will work without some mucky stuff
14:48	timvisher	you might have to do a quick binary search of the offending bit
14:48	cemerick	pbalduino: \m/
14:48	abaranosky2	timvisher: yes, but the code where we use it is commented out :)
14:49	timvisher	abaranosky2: something is probably still firing a go-loop waiting for input from a channel or something
14:49	abaranosky2	I have one main fn that fires off everything. In that fn I commented everything out.
14:49	abaranosky2	timvisher: ^^^
14:49	timvisher	abaranosky2: so all your required nses are entirely pure?
14:51	timvisher	i would imagine that some of them are side-effecting somewhere and thus causing the hangup
14:51	mikerod	I wish Clojure's use-fixtures did not overwrite existing fixtures in the same namespace
14:51	mikerod	(use-fixtures :once blah) -- then -- (use-fixtures :once foo) -- then only foo fixture works
14:52	mikerod	it just uses an assoc with the :clojure.test/once key on the namespace metadata
14:52	mikerod	an update with conj or something would be a bit nicer to me
14:52	mikerod	I had a case where we have a macro that adds a :once fixture
14:52	mikerod	that macro needs to be written after any usages of the clojure.test/use-fixtures, so that it doesn't clobber or :once fixture
14:56	abaranosky2	timvisher: I will comment out my requires and see what happens, but I don't as a rule execute code in the loading of a file
14:56	abaranosky2	meaning I hide things behind defns whenever possible
14:58	abaranosky2	timvisher: hmmm, commenting out requires is now NOT crashing :)
14:58	abaranosky2	timvisher: I'll try commenting that back in one by one
14:59	timvisher	abaranosky2: i'm with you. sometimes something slips in.
15:02	abaranosky2	timvisher: this require is causing the crash: (:require-macros [cljs.core.async.macros :as am])
15:02	abaranosky2	which ironically was not being used in man.cljs :)
15:03	timvisher	lol. that's interesting.
15:09	swedishfish	justin_smith: okay, I think I'll take the approach of partitioning test types into directories, build out a small test runner namespace with functions for running integration, unit, etc. which will just load the namespaces based on a files in respective directories.
15:18	justin_smith	swedishfish: remember that is called inside functions works
15:18	justin_smith	so you could define tests that call the same functions, but with different fixtures
15:19	justin_smith	swedishfish: that is, if you call a function inside deftest that has clojure.test/is calls inside it, that does the right thing
15:20	andyf	puredanger: after seeing your latest blog posts on changes to Clojure, I am simultaneously mightily impressed with your diligence, and scared of ever again submitting a perf related patch :)
15:23	andyf	For anyone else who wants to read it, http://insideclojure.org/2015/01/07/vec-perf/
15:23	jackhill	andyf: thanks! I was just getting ready to ask
15:32	justin_smith	puredanger: excellent article, small typo "After a lot of experimentation, I would up with the following cases"
15:32	justin_smith	think you wanted "wound" there?
15:33	puredanger	thx, fixed
15:33	justin_smith	and big wow on those performance improvements! good work
15:33	tcrayford____	(inc puredanger)
15:33	puredanger	and Rich just ok'ed that one a few minutes ago for the next alpha (which should be coming soon)....
15:33	tcrayford____	puredanger: excellent work :)
15:34	tcrayford____	now too s/into []/vec/g all over github
15:36	puredanger	well, check those perf #s closely - use case matters
15:36	puredanger	I think any place where you are normalizing input and may sometimes receive a vector, then vec is definitely the right choice
15:36	puredanger	if you know you are calling it with either small inputs or non-frequently, then shouldn't really matter
15:37	puredanger	if frequent or big inputs of known particular type (like seq, etc) then … depends
15:38	puredanger	into has the big benefit of taking a transducer which you should leverage if it makes sense
15:39	tcrayford____	(if you can use 1.7 ;) )
15:39	puredanger	well if you're relying on these perf changes then 1.6 won't help you either :)
15:41	sdegutis	What are some solutions for providing "mixin-like" functionality with Clojure deftypes?
15:42	hyPiRion	puredanger: Speaking of performance patches, is there some way you recommend people to document performance patches/submissions?
15:43	llasram	sdegutis: protocol partial implementation maps?
15:43	sdegutis	What?
15:43	clojurebot	What is meta
15:43	amalloy	clojurebot: meta is meta
15:43	clojurebot	A nod, you know, is as good as a wink to a blind horse.
15:44	llasram	sdegutis: You can use `extend` to provide a protocol implementation as a map of keyword protocol-function-names to functions
15:44	llasram	These maps are just maps, so you can build them elsewhere, merge them, etc
15:44	sdegutis	Ah.
15:44	puredanger	hyPiRion: they generally need to demonstrate an improvement across a meaningful set of examples (which often is wider than just the thing you start with). and the tests need to be done with something like criterium usually, although sometimes cruder tests with time can be sufficient
15:45	sdegutis	llasram: This is the solution I have now, for better or worse: https://github.com/sdegutis/oops/blob/master/src/oops/core.clj#L4
15:45	puredanger	hyPiRion: not sure if that answered your question
15:48	hyPiRion	puredanger: Yeah, thanks
15:48	mikerod	,(inc puredanger)
15:48	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: puredanger in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
15:48	mikerod	(inc puredanger)
15:49	mikerod	for these good blog post
15:49	mikerod	posts*
15:51	arrdem	so what "Intro to Clojure" tutorial do people like to point beginners towards? A friend is getting started and I'm realizing that while I can offer a lot of criticism & help I don't have good intro material to point too.
15:52	tcrayford____	https://aphyr.com/media/context.html
15:52	tcrayford____	oops, wrong link
15:52	tcrayford____	I like a fear's: https://aphyr.com/tags/Clojure-from-the-ground-up
15:54	arrdem	tcrayford____: thanks I forgot about aphyr's intro posts
15:54	tcrayford____	iirc it's gonna be a book eventually
15:55	arrdem	gigasquid also has a book on the way I think...
15:55	arrdem	maybe same book
15:55	gigasquid	yes "Living Clojure" should be out for early release in the next couple of weeks
15:56	arrdem	yaaaas
15:56	amalloy	you think gigasquid and aphyr are the same person, arrdem? has anyone ever seen them together?
15:56	gigasquid	ha ha
15:56	arrdem	haha
15:58	gigasquid	Clojure of the Brave and True is really good too
15:58	gigasquid	http://www.braveclojure.com/
16:01	tcrayford____	clojurebot: aphyr is gigasquid
16:01	clojurebot	Ok.
16:01	gfredericks	~gigasquid
16:01	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
16:02	tcrayford____	clojurebot: gigasquid is aphyr
16:02	clojurebot	In Ordnung
16:03	hipsterslapfight	gigasquid: any place to see "living clojure" now or do we have to wait for early release?
16:03	hipsterslapfight	(already made my way through aphyrs posts and most of CftBaT and loved them both)
16:03	gigasquid	not yet ....
16:03	gigasquid	shouldn't be too long
16:04	hipsterslapfight	okay i shall follow you on twitter and expect you to announce it there :v
16:04	gigasquid	:)
16:04	arrdem	:+1:
16:25	stuartsierra	modularity.org is down http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/modularity.org
16:25	bridgethillyer	gigasquid: YAY
16:25	gfredericks	does this have something to do with some javascript community twitterfight that I hear echos of on twitter?
16:33	hipsterslapfight	haha, module shaming
16:34	TimMc	~twitterfight
16:34	clojurebot	Pardon?
16:35	amalloy	what is modularity.org when it's not down?
16:36	gfredericks	twitter is a place where I see lots of echos of what seem like big dramatic fights/crises
16:36	tcrayford____	modularitee
16:36	gfredericks	but almost never the events themselves
16:36	gfredericks	it takes digging
16:37	SagiCZ1	has anyone experienced unlearning both java and OOP by using clojure for too long? i am freaking out, i cant design anything anymore :X
16:38	justin_smith	SagiCZ1: sounds similar to the "code switching" problem that new learners of natural languages run into
16:39	SagiCZ1	yeah.. i need to switch my brain
16:40	justin_smith	SagiCZ1: there i a stage before full fluency where the categories "leak" and you have a hard time speaking in either language properly
16:40	justin_smith	or that is my recollection of it at least
16:40	SagiCZ1	that would be my case since i dont know either java nor clojure at an expert level
16:43	tomjack	if I try to write some java and to be happy about the result, I inevitably wind up at clojure.java.api
16:43	SagiCZ1	haha.. tomjack but i need to write real java.. sadly
16:44	tomjack	me too :(
17:19	[blake\|	So what's the routine for pointing one project toward a JAR that you're building in another project? Just point the dependent project.clj toward that other directory?
17:20	[blake\|	(I did this, like, six months ago and I've totally forgotten. Dude.)
17:37	[blake\|	lein install!
17:37	[blake\|	Can't believe I forgot that.
17:57	hellofunk	how can i check if a def'd symbol was given a value? like (def a), learning that it wasn't (def a whateve)
18:03	thheller	(instance? clojure.lang.Var$Unbound a)
18:03	hellofunk	thanks
18:17	ambrosebs	IIRC .hasRoot on a Var is more reliable
18:38	cperkins	,(clojure.string/split "/foo" #"/")
18:38	clojurebot	["" "foo"]
18:38	cperkins	,(clojure.string/split "/" #"/")
18:38	clojurebot	[]
18:39	cperkins	Why is (clojure.string/split "/" #"/") not [""]?
18:40	amalloy	cperkins: read the docs for java.lang.String/split, which clojure just delegates to
18:40	amalloy	basically, the default behavior is to strip trailing empty matches
18:41	cperkins	amalloy: thanks, that makes sense, I guess
18:44	andyf	cperkins: Give split a last arg of -1 and the results might start to look more consistent across your examples
18:46	cperkins	andyf: cool, that helps, thanks
19:07	[blake\|	Is "decorate" used any more?
19:07	[blake\|	I guess that should go to weavejester...
19:08	cperkins	blake: I think it's sleepytime where weavejester lives
19:09	[blake\|	cperkins: Code never sleeps...
19:09	weavejester	Almost :)
19:09	[blake\|	Heh
19:10	weavejester	I wrote a decorate library way back when, when I didn't really understand Clojure.
19:11	amalloy	weavejester: i think i've tried to dissuade [blake\| from using decorate before
19:11	weavejester	I wouldn't recommend using it.
19:11	[blake\|	amalloy: Noooo. You've dissuaded me from using flatten.
19:12	[blake\|	But I look at decorate and think "Is that really necessary?" There's a Hooke thing like that, too.
19:13	[blake\|	I'm actually just trying to figure out my responsibilities vis a vis compojure's session handling. And the doc I found is real old. And it uses decorate.
19:14	weavejester	[blake\|: Are the official docs insufficient? https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring/wiki/Sessions
19:15	[blake\|	weavejester: Well, I'm having problems. =)
19:16	[blake\|	weavejester: What I guess I'm not getting is this: When I call wrap-session, is it true, that from that point forward, the session data should be preserved?
19:17	weavejester	I'm not really sure what you mean by that.
19:17	[blake\|	weavejester: Disallowing things like storing to cookies. Just "OK, here's some session info."
19:17	weavejester	When you return a :session key in the response, that triggers a write in the session store.
19:18	[blake\|	weavejester: Right. So I have "(assoc (resp/redirect "/") :session (get-privileges user pass))", for example.
19:19	[blake\|	weavejester: But most of the time, I'm not doing anything with the response. Not directly.
19:19	weavejester	Yes, that should overwrite the session, if you return the response.
19:19	[blake\|	weavejester: And that seems to work. But every now and again, the session info seems to empty out.
19:20	weavejester	Which session store are you using?
19:20	weavejester	If it's an in-memory store, reloading a namespace will clear it.
19:21	weavejester	Another possible issue is if you have two session middleware overlapping.
19:21	[blake\|	weavejester: Oh! OK, yeah. Although I don't think I'm doing that, that's the kind of thing I'm looking for.
19:21	[blake\|	weavejester: For a while I had wrap-session and handler/site.
19:22	[blake\|	weavejester: Now it's just handler/site.
19:22	hellofunk	is it possible to reload a namespace from the REPL for that namespace? essentially recompiling it, without interacting directly with the source file
19:22	weavejester	hellofunk: You can use (:require 'blah.core :reload)
19:22	amalloy	hellofunk: require :reload
19:22	[blake\|	hellofunk: ooh...well, I do THAT a lot, but I'd think they'd be running in different spaces. I don't believe I'm running an nREPL into my running app.
19:22	hellofunk	ah, cool, i shall try
19:23	[blake\|	oh, you weren't talking about my problems...what a blow =P
19:24	[blake\|	weavejester: OK, so it really is "just wrap-session and the data persists" (barring a few situations)?
19:24	[blake\|	(Sometimes things are just too simple.)
19:25	weavejester	[blake\|: Yep.
19:26	[blake\|	weavejester: OK, then.
19:26	weavejester	If you're using a memory-store and reload the namespace, that might clear it. Or if you accidentally overwrite the session from another route.
19:26	weavejester	But the underlying mechanism is pretty simple.
19:26	weavejester	Whatever's in the :session key on the response becomes the new session.
19:26	[blake\|	weavejester: I am doing nothing deliberate with the store. So it's whatever the default is.
19:27	[blake\|	Makes sense. Could an ajax call be a problem?
19:27	weavejester	The default is an in-memory session. If you reload your app namespace, that'll likely cause it to be wiped.
19:27	weavejester	An ajax call is no different from a normal HTTP call.
19:27	[blake\|	(= in-memory memory-store)?
19:28	amalloy	weavejester: isn't ring's default session a temporary per-request session, rather than one for the ilfetime of the server?
19:28	[blake\|	weavejester: OK, so if I have a link to "/input/whatever" and someone with a session clicks on that link...
19:28	weavejester	amalloy: No, it stores the data in an atom that's created when the middleware is applied.
19:29	[blake\|	What's weird also is that the session info comes and goes.
19:30	[blake\|	After a login, I have a drop down that pulls up one of several data entry forms. The user's name is there. The user selects the form, and it looks like he's logged out. He pulls up a list of saved reports, he's logged in again.
19:31	weavejester	[blake\|: That sounds like the session path might be mis-set
19:31	[blake\|	weavejester: Session path?
19:31	weavejester	The path the session cookie applies to
19:32	weavejester	Though by default it's "/", so that shouldn't be the issue.
19:32	weavejester	Without seeing your code, I can't really tell you where you might have gone wrong
19:33	[blake\|	weavejester: Right, which is why I was trying to do the most basic example.
19:33	[blake\|	I'll see if I can work it up from the docs using the count.
19:34	[blake\|	It's a responsibility issue, though. If I had to pass the session around everywhere explicitly, I could understand.
19:37	[blake\|	shhheee...what if I'm just destructuring session data wrong...
19:38	[blake\|	Nah, that's write. The session is actually coming IN as {} when it fails.
19:39	[blake\|	er, that's right...
20:26	justin_smith	$ping lazybot
20:26	justin_smith	:(
20:29	amalloy	&'hello
20:29	lazybot	⇒ hello
20:31	justin_smith	cool
22:25	gfredericks	I'm about to write a function called semisort does it exist already?
22:51	justin_smith	what would semisort do?
23:30	rhg135	for any X in 'is ther a function which does X' it's almost always yes