#clojure – 2014-12-22

2014-12-22

00:00	andyf	arrdem: pong
00:02	kenrestivo	it isn't my opinion that the people are intending.
00:02	arrdem	andyf: refactoring the cheatsheet structure to play with a flowing box layout. interested?
00:03	andyf	I don't know what a flowing box layout means, but if you think it will enhance usability without making it take way more vertical space, I'm curious.
00:03	andyf	by flowing box, you mean something where it will take more horizontal space if the window has it available?
00:03	arrdem	yep.
00:04	andyf	definitely interested.
00:04	arrdem	kk. I'm starting to work on Grimoire's small screen rendering, and the cheatsheet could use some work so I'm starting there.
00:21	tenchi	Can anyone help explain what's happening here?
00:21	tenchi	https://www.refheap.com/95287
00:26	fairuz	tenchi: nothing?
00:27	fairuz	(/ 2_000 2) somehow returns 2
00:28	tenchi	fairuz: Ah, and I guess it's not flushed until I hit enter (with or without another command).
00:29	tenchi	It's the second 2, in particular.
01:15	tolstoy	Trying out sente, and right away: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.IllegalAccessError: have? does not exist, compiling:(taoensso/sente.clj:1:1)
01:15	tolstoy	Eek! ;)
01:19	arrdem	andyf: was the cheat sheet pdf first and then html?
01:20	tolstoy	Wow. Can't even get the lib itself to compile.
01:20	andyf	Steve Tayon created it, which I wasn't involved in at first. When I came to it, I believe the more up-to-date version was LaTeX (used to generate PDF), and an HTML version was created from that by hand.
01:21	andyf	My first step being involved in it was to create the Clojure program that generates both LaTeX and HTML from a common data structure, and I tried fairly hard to keep the initial LaTeX version nearly identical to what I started with.
01:21	arrdem	gotcha.
01:21	andyf	If there is some baggage in the code left over from that, I don't mind ejecting it now.
01:22	arrdem	what I'm working on now basically demands a single column layout rather than the baked in two column assuption so... it's an adventure
01:22	arrdem	more funny to see what I consider 2014 clojure style vs 2011 clojure style
01:22	andyf	I wouldn't necessarily say my style in writing that Clojure code was typical of everyone's.
01:22	arrdem	:P
01:23	arrdem	if you want me to not go crazy with style changes I won't
01:23	arrdem	but right now I'm going a little nuts
01:23	andyf	I don't mind if it changes in significant ways, if I can still understand it and figure out how to make further changes to it when needed.
01:24	arrdem	ok. I'll let you know when I finish something useful or get really stuck :P
01:24	arrdem	thanks andy
01:24	andyf	np
01:27	sdegutis	For example I'm really liking Swift's syntax right now.
01:28	sdegutis	It admittedly doesn't allow macros, but so far that hasn't bothered me.
01:43	kenrestivo	mein gott. i think i finally have this core.async thing wrestled to the ground.
01:44	kenrestivo	now all we need is someone to whack that pioneering modernist painter from the pm's.
01:45	kenrestivo	but... 5 separate restartable "daemon" components, all communicating via an async message bus, topics and pub/sub, massive crazy state management all done inside an atom in one of the components, all other components getting their state updates from that and feeding input into it.
01:48	arrdem	sounds like one hella complex state machine...
01:58	kenrestivo	it's more update functions than state machine. the network stuff is a proper statemachine, using multimethods
01:59	kenrestivo	anyways, finally can see the horizon and sharing a happy moment.
01:59	kenrestivo	interested to see what your mobile grimoire ends up lookign like. are you using bootstrap?
02:06	arrdem	not yet. a rework atop bootstrap is more or less imminent
02:06	arrdem	redoing the cheatsheet atop bootstrap first :P
02:07	arrdem	https://github.com/poole/lanyon is what it's built atop now which leads to some... issues.
02:09	kenrestivo	ah, css. i'll be back in browser-and-css-land by end of week i expect.
02:10	arrdem	yeah. I need to really get my hands dirty in that land :c
02:11	arrdem	programmer art will only take you so far
02:11	kenrestivo	if you want to sell stuff, yeah, ui is a must.
02:12	kenrestivo	i'm just a bootstrap jockey at this point when it comes to ui. but it works.
02:15	kenrestivo	actually looking at grimoire, a bootstrap grid would probably work perfectly. 2 col on wide screens, automatically responsive's to 1 col on phones
02:16	arrdem	yeah I just need to bludgeon the cheatsheet into supporting that :P
02:16	kenrestivo	and that menu/sliding-drawer thing, i think it supports that too.
02:16	arrdem	since it looks like I'd need to totally rewrite the cheatsheet's internals to support this I may just hand edit it..
02:17	kenrestivo	where's the source of it?
02:18	arrdem	https://github.com/arrdem/clojure-cheatsheets
02:19	andyf	you can't just make the existing 2-column stuff in there a no-op?
02:19	kenrestivo	oh wow, that goes back a ways
02:19	kenrestivo	fogus, that was a while ago.
02:19	arrdem	andyf: I mean yeah I could hack it to get the build I want, but that doesn't count :P
02:20	arrdem	why would I pass up on a perfectly good yack
02:20	arrdem	/s
02:20	kenrestivo	i'd be inclined to start over, and just take the database of content forward.
02:20	andyf	not when those shears are right there
02:21	arrdem	the spirit is willing but the body is tired and low on caffeene
02:22	kenrestivo	yeah i gotta burn an image with this finally-working thing before i pass out.
02:22	arrdem	I'm just gonna hack it. I'd wind up with two (structurally shared) templates anyway if I really shaved this right.
02:22	arrdem	another day.
02:22	arrdem	dang it's late. forget this.
02:22	arrdem	'night
02:23	andyf	g'night
02:33	rritoch	Can someone explain to me how to send an IRC mail via one of the bots? I am having a problem accessing the development wiki and need to advise an official developer of some issues.
02:35	andyf	rritoch: The Clojure dev wiki? I may be able to help
02:35	andyf	What are you trying to do, and what result are you getting?
02:35	TEttinger	$mail rritoch this is a message.
02:35	lazybot	Message saved.
02:36	rritoch	andyf: I have tried to login but it isn't accepting my password. When I attempt to retrieve my password it says I have no account, and when I attempt to create an account I get a validation error and stack trace saying the account already exists.
02:36	TEttinger	check it by privmsging lazybot with $mail
02:37	rritoch	TEttinger: Thanks
02:37	TEttinger	np
02:37	TEttinger	it's a very useful feature in geographically diverse IRC
02:37	andyf	I see an account called rritoch, last logged on in Dec 5
02:38	andyf	It looks like I have permission to set the password. You want me to set it to something random-ish and email it to rritoch@gmail.com ?
02:39	rritoch	andyf: Thanks, that would work. I'm unable to reset it.
02:39	wildnux	hi, https://www.refheap.com/95290
02:40	wildnux	that function is supposed to do concat on (take-last 2 theseq) and (drop-last 2 theseq)
02:40	rritoch	andyf: I suppose the problem is with the password recovery system then. When I enter either my username or email address it says I don't have an account.
02:40	wildnux	and return (4 5 1 2 3)
02:40	andyf	On what page are you trying to log in?
02:40	rritoch	andyf: http://dev.clojure.org/dologin.action
02:40	wildnux	but, it is returning (3 4 5 1 2), what am i doing wrong?
02:41	TEttinger	mod is never negative on the jvm, wildnux
02:41	rritoch	andyf: At http://dev.clojure.org/forgotuserpassword.action if you enter my username or email it says the account doesn't exist.
02:42	andyf	out of curiosity, try going here and look for a Log in link near upper right: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ
02:42	TEttinger	,(mod -2 5)
02:42	clojurebot	3
02:42	rritoch	andyf: I am already logged in there
02:42	wildnux	TEttinger: yes, but f should be bound to take-last, and s should be bound to drop-last and thus result should be (concat (take-last 2 [1 2 3 4 5]) (drop-last 2 [1 2 3 4 5])), which but is not ding it
02:42	TEttinger	,(rem -2 5)
02:42	clojurebot	-2
02:42	rritoch	andyf: I'm trying to access the developer wiki
02:43	TEttinger	no, you're take-last ing by n, which is 3
02:43	wildnux	TEttinger: aaah.. ok
02:44	TEttinger	what is the correct behavior for the args: -2 [1 2 3 4 5 6 7]
02:44	TEttinger	loop two from the end back to the front, right?
02:44	andyf	If you go to this page, do you see a Log in link near top right? http://dev.clojure.org
02:45	andyf	Sorry I'm asking so many questions -- login problems aren't exactly frequent.
02:46	wildnux	TEttinger: it is supposed to rotate the sequence in negative order
02:46	rritoch	andyf: No matter what I enter it's now saying you are required to validate your login by entering the word below
02:46	wildnux	so, 6 7 1 2 3 4 i
02:46	rritoch	andyf: I'll retry with chrome.
02:46	wildnux	TEttinger: [6 7 1 2 3 4]
02:47	TEttinger	no 5?
02:47	wildnux	TEttinger: 5 as well ;)
02:47	wildnux	TEttinger: typo
02:47	rritoch	andyf: I'm having the same problem in chrome
02:48	rritoch	andyf: If I change my password on JIRA will that change my password on the wiki? Maybe that will solve this issue.
02:49	TEttinger	,(#(take (count %2) (drop (mod %1 (count %2)) (cycle %2))) -2 [1 2 3 4 5 6 7])
02:49	clojurebot	(6 7 1 2 3 ...)
02:49	wildnux	TEttinger: so changing the binding of n to: n (mod (Math/abs %) (count %2) fixed it
02:49	TEttinger	it's a one-liner though!
02:49	rritoch	andyf: Changing my password on JIRA had no effect, it is just the wiki that I can't access.
02:50	TEttinger	,(#(take (count %2) (drop (mod %1 (count %2)) (cycle %2))) -10 [1 2 3 4 5 6 7])
02:50	clojurebot	(5 6 7 1 2 ...)
02:50	andyf	I just changed the password on your JIRA account, and sent it to you in email.
02:50	andyf	Yeah, that may not help at all in getting wiki access.
02:51	TEttinger	wildnux, b-b-but one-liners are awesome
02:51	andyf	Sending email to alex.miller@cognitect.com might be a good idea. I have dealt with Clojure JIRA accounts, and I know there is something kinda parallel but not exactly identical on the wiki side that I'm not as familiar with.
02:53	wildnux	TEttinger: I know, i wanted one-liner as well,
02:53	rritoch	andyf: Ok thanks, alex is who I'm trying to reach anyhow but I didn't know his email address.
02:54	wildnux	TEttinger: but totally forgot about cycle, this is the best i could get :P now looking back the solutions is very helpful
03:28	rritoch	I'm not sure how relevant this is, but I've made additional changes to the namespace isolation feature (in the andylisp fork) to more easily manage isolation switches, and reparenting for use with thread pools. The feature is now fully functional as intended so I hope to post it to the design wiki since the problems with this feature, at least those using my implementation method, have solutions.
03:40	kenrestivo	now that's one of the most interesting core.async deaths i've yet seen: https://www.refheap.com/95293
03:40	kenrestivo	what. in. the.
03:47	rhg135	This is a bit dafuq, kenrestivo
04:27	borkdude	if I'm using lib-noir, what's the way to add a resource directory to the app handler? In ring I would do a wrap-resource
04:27	borkdude	with :ring-defaults maybe
04:30	borkdude	it worked
05:05	triss	math expressions can be pretty illegible in clojure.....
05:05	triss	is there a way to write them in BODMAS style?
05:05	SagiCZ1	triss: i have found that out too
05:06	SagiCZ1	on the other hand, you can have any number of operands which makes some expressions nicer
05:06	SagiCZ1	if you want, you can write a macro that manipulates your code in such a way, taht you can write something like (5 + (2 * 3)), but you would limit yourself to two operands
05:07	triss	true indeed... it's just I'm often converting formula's off of papers or from ohers code.
05:07	SagiCZ1	just wrap them in a function, make sure they are correct, and dont worry about it anymore.. its not something you need to be able to read quickly i think
05:07	triss	cheers SqgiCZ1. I tink i spotted that somewhere. Nobodies been as far as to do the whole bodmas thing yet then?
05:08	SagiCZ1	not that i know of
05:08	triss	with operator precedence and all that shiz
05:08	SagiCZ1	i think ive seen a simple example in a book about clojure but it was just a toy
05:09	SagiCZ1	triss: actually, check this out https://github.com/tristan/clojure-infix
05:09	SagiCZ1	seems like someone bothered to write an infix notation reader
05:10	SagiCZ1	also appereantly Incanter has it as a module http://data-sorcery.org/2010/05/14/infix-math/
05:10	triss	thanks man I'll take peek.
05:10	SagiCZ1	note that incanter is a pretty huge dependency though
05:12	triss	not heard of that incanter.... might come in handy at some
05:12	triss	point
05:13	SagiCZ1	it wraps some nice stuff from jfreechart for plotting
05:17	triss	write then next Q. what's the diffreence between doto and -> ?
05:18	SagiCZ1	doto is for interop
05:20	SagiCZ1	doto basically "mutates" the object that comes first using the functions provided... -> threads the expressions and uses output of one function as input for the next
05:20	SagiCZ1	see this:
05:20	SagiCZ1	,(doto (new java.util.HashMap) (.put "a" 1) (.put "b" 2))
05:20	clojurebot	{"a" 1, "b" 2}
05:20	SagiCZ1	works fine right?
05:20	SagiCZ1	,(-> (new java.util.HashMap) (.put "a" 1) (.put "b" 2))
05:20	clojurebot	#<NullPointerException java.lang.NullPointerException>
05:20	SagiCZ1	but this failes, because (.put "a" 1) returns nil
05:20	SagiCZ1	which is used as a first parametr for the next .put
05:21	Bronsa	SagiCZ1: doto is not only for interop
05:21	SagiCZ1	in doto, the parameter is always the first form, not the outputs of previous functions
05:21	SagiCZ1	Bronsa: well.. it is for objects that are mutable.. thats not a common object in pure clojure
05:22	triss	ah of course. cheers guys
05:22	Bronsa	SagiCZ1: I've used it a bunch of times on ref types e.g. (doto (intern ..) (reset-meta! {..}))
05:23	SagiCZ1	Bronsa: i see, well my ignorance stems from the fact that i havent used ref types yet :)
05:23	Bronsa	SagiCZ1: sure you have :) you most definitely use Vars all the time
05:23	Bronsa	SagiCZ1: I was not talking about clojure.core/ref, I was talking about clojure reference types, vars/refs/atoms/agents etc
05:23	SagiCZ1	i use atoms sometimes.. dont know what intern does
05:24	SagiCZ1	and dont know what var is.. do i use it?
05:24	Bronsa	SagiCZ1: definitely :)
05:24	Bronsa	SagiCZ1: everything you def is a var
05:24	SagiCZ1	oh....... so it seems i already understand half of clojures reference types.. hooray
05:46	borkdude	Hmm, adding :ring-defaults {:static {:resources "/META-INF/resources"}} to my lib-noir app-handler results in form posts with empty parameters in compojure :-S
05:52	borkdude	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/27601178/how-do-i-add-webjars-resources-to-lib-noirs-app-handler
06:09	kenrestivo	the awesome thing about schema is that if you have invalid input you get informative error messages like https://www.refheap.com/95297
06:35	hellofunk	can update-in work on vectors? (update-in {:a [[1 2] [3 4]]} [:a 1] 5) I would expect the [3 4] to replaced by the value of 5
06:35	hellofunk	nevermind, i forgot to wrap the value in a fn
06:35	hellofunk	(update-in {:a [[1 2] [3 4]]} [:a 1] 5) works as expected
06:36	hellofunk	sorry, (update-in {:a [[1 2] [3 4]]} [:a 1] (fn [_] 5))
06:36	hyPiRion	probably better to use assoc-in then
06:37	hyPiRion	,(assoc-in {:a [[1 2] [3 4]]} [:a 1] 5)
06:37	clojurebot	{:a [[1 2] 5]}
06:38	hellofunk	true dat, thanks
06:56	mnngfltg	I always mix up update-in and assoc-in as well
06:57	mnngfltg	and then I get confused as to why somebody is trying to call my values as a functio
06:57	mnngfltg	n
07:18	expez	I'm trying to determine if a macro is in use. If I search for the #"<name>(\b\|\B)" am I missing any occurrences of <name>?
07:19	expez	s/the/the regexp/
08:06	hyPiRion	expez: what is the goal of (\b\|\B)? Wouldn't that just ensure there's a character after the name itself?
08:06	expez	it's to eliminate matching 'foo' with 'foobar'
08:07	expez	\b is word-boundary and \B is non-word-boundary
08:07	hyPiRion	exactly
08:07	hyPiRion	,(re-find #"foo(\b\|\B)" "foobar")
08:07	clojurebot	["foo" ""]
08:08	hyPiRion	,(re-find #"foo\b" "foobar")
08:08	clojurebot	nil
08:08	expez	hmm I misread the docs, then
08:08	expez	I thought a non-word-boundary would be if 'foo' was followed by say ')' or ']' which are non-word characters
08:09	hyPiRion	expez: oh, I see. I just think \B is the complement of \b
08:09	hyPiRion	,(re-find #"foo\b" "(foo)")
08:09	clojurebot	"foo"
08:10	hyPiRion	expez: I think #"<name>\b" shouldn't missing any occurrences, but you'd obviously end up with false positives
08:10	hyPiRion	shouldn't miss*
08:10	expez	I'm OK with false positives, false negatives would be terrible
08:12	expez	thanks hyPiRion :)
08:14	hyPiRion	no problem
08:22	grumpybat	hi guys, how do I emit tagged literals?
08:24	joegallo	,(pr (java.util.Date.))
08:24	clojurebot	#inst "2014-12-22T13:21:13.221-00:00"
08:24	grumpybat	joegallo: yep, and what about custom ones?
08:24	grumpybat	one has to define a writer function or something?
08:24	joegallo	i was just gonna say something like "i dunno, it just magically works for date and stuff..."
08:25	joegallo	but yeah, it's possible there's something you need to do, and that it's already been done for you in the case of dates
08:26	machty	,(class `(1 2 3))
08:26	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Cons
08:26	grumpybat	well, I didn't find anything about emitting tagged literals, there are only some docs and tutorials on how to parse them
08:26	machty	,(class '(1 2 3))
08:26	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentList
08:27	machty	^ why is one Cons and one persistent list? Also, i thought the job of backtick was to fully qualify symbols, but apparently it also does some implicit `cons` ?
08:36	TEttinger	,(str `(1 2 3))
08:36	clojurebot	"(1 2 3)"
08:37	TEttinger	,(str '(1 2 3))
08:37	clojurebot	"(1 2 3)"
08:37	TEttinger	hm
08:38	TEttinger	joegallo, there's a way to overwrite the normal print behavior, that I can't remember
08:39	TEttinger	I made 1d arrays printable with: (defmethod print-dup (Class/forName "[D") [a out] (.write ^java.io.FileWriter out (str "#=" `(double-array ~(vec a)))))
08:40	TEttinger	,(defmethod print-dup (Class/forName "[D") [a out] (.write ^java.io.FileWriter out (str "#=" `(double-array ~(vec a)))))
08:40	clojurebot	#<MultiFn clojure.lang.MultiFn@56a2ed9e>
08:40	TEttinger	,(pr (double-array [1.2 3.4]))
08:40	clojurebot	#<double[] [D@293eaf69>
08:40	TEttinger	hm
08:41	joegallo	TEttinger: grumpybat: doesn't look like there's anything magical. it's just print-method https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/instant.clj#L169-L184
08:42	grumpybat	joegallo: rats... looks like kludge
08:44	TEttinger	you could wrap it of course
08:53	expez	Bronsa: why does (analyzer.jvm/analyze '(+ 1 unbound)) error? What can I use instead to build an AST that lets me know that 'unbound is in fact an unbound var in this env?
08:54	Bronsa	expez: https://github.com/clojure/tools.analyzer.jvm/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/tools/analyzer/passes/jvm/validate.clj#L255-L262
08:55	Bronsa	expez: you can provide custom pass opts to analyze, https://github.com/clojure/tools.analyzer.jvm/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/tools/analyzer/jvm.clj#L435-L437
08:55	Bronsa	expez: by default t.a.jvm is a clojure analyzer, in clojure an unbound symbol throws an exception
08:56	Bronsa	expez: if you want to change that behaviour, you'll have to hook in via pass opts, like :validate/unresolvable-symbol-handler
08:57	expez	Bronsa: Aha. Thanks. So if I want to build an 'extract function' I should use validate with an unresolvable-symbol-handler?
09:00	Bronsa	expez: yeah. just FYI it might be a bit unpleasant to succesfully use t.a.jvm to analyze expressions that clojure would not be able to evaluate, simply because it wasn't designed with that use-case in mind
09:00	expez	But is there an alternative?
09:01	Bronsa	expez: but I know the guys that work on cider have succesfully used t.a.jvm for exactly this use case so it can definitely be done
09:01	Bronsa	expez: not that I'm aware of
09:01	expez	cider doesn't use t.a.jvm
09:02	Bronsa	expez: sorry, refactor-nrepl does
09:03	expez	mm, which is the project I want to extend with 'extract function' :)
09:04	expez	https://gist.github.com/74bd3b42968df75f9f24 will I have your attention, what would be the correct way to do this?
09:05	expez	I ended up just giving up after a while, but it seems to work
09:05	Bronsa	expez: what should (:type :class) do?
09:05	expez	I'm trying to find the names of classes that are in use so usage of constructors, methods and static variables
09:07	expez	(:type :class) is a typo no-op heh
09:08	Bronsa	expez: I am terribly sorry I have to run away now, if you send me an email with exactly what you're trying to do I'll make sure to reply as soon as I can
09:08	expez	aight, thanks
10:12	picasso	sdegutis, arrdem, it is not picasso doing the spamming. there is a spambot named picassoo (two o's). different host. and you'll see that picasso is registered with freenode
10:13	sdegutis	ha
10:13	sdegutis	clever bots
10:13	picasso	anyway, i'll leave to make things easier for ya ;)
10:16	SagiCZ1	does anyone feel like this channel is growing quieter last couple weeks?
10:16	agarman	holidays
10:16	agarman	it happens
10:17	SagiCZ1	i hope that's the reason
10:19	agarman	Where I am, there are 3 developers in the office, 8 on vacation. This month is so close to zero productivity in the US South that some companies just tell everyone to take the last two weeks off.
10:21	SagiCZ1	agarman: where do you live in the south? Texas?
10:24	justin_smith	SagiCZ1: agarman: similar situation even in the comparatively heathen Pacific Northwest - offices shutting down for two or three weeks around now is not unusual
10:24	SagiCZ1	some people were at work today.. but just for 3 hours.. otherwise until last week we worked normally here
10:25	justin_smith	partially I think it is because it's normal to move so far away from family and still expect to see them regularly
10:25	SagiCZ1	justin_smith: is it? why people move so far away? just because they can or because job opportunities?
10:25	justin_smith	SagiCZ1: it's easy to move between states in the US, and the US is very large
10:26	SagiCZ1	it is huge
10:26	justin_smith	probably work / money related stuff is part of it, yeah. Also the regions are very different, and people find they "fit" better in a different part of the country
10:27	SagiCZ1	it's so cool how much diversity you can try out without issues
10:27	llasram	I think part of it is vacation policies where people lose accumulated unused time off at the end of the year
10:27	SagiCZ1	California, Alaska, Texas, New York.. so different
10:28	justin_smith	SagiCZ1: well "without issues" may be a bit much... the diversity isn't without conflicts
10:28	SagiCZ1	no legal issues though.. for us it's very hard to move outside of EU
10:29	justin_smith	for example, a majority of people are liberal, but because of how pop. density works, a majority of states are conservative, and part of national lawmaking is per-state not per-capita representation
10:29	SagiCZ1	that is very interesting.. how come majority of people are liberal and in the elections it is still very equal
10:30	justin_smith	because electoral votes are not per capita
10:30	SagiCZ1	don't you get state representatives according to population count?
10:31	justin_smith	it is influenced by population, but not strictly representative of population
10:31	_2_winter	hi
10:31	justin_smith	otherwise california and new york would control every national election
10:32	justin_smith	but this is way off topic...
10:32	SagiCZ1	yeah sorry, i started the off topic since it was quiet here anyways, thanks for the info though
10:32	justin_smith	_2_winter: hello
10:38	justin_smith	SagiCZ1: "For instance, each individual vote in Wyoming counts nearly four times as much in the Electoral College as each individual vote in Texas." http://www.fairvote.org/reforms/national-popular-vote/the-electoral-college/problems-with-the-electoral-college/
10:38	SagiCZ1	how is that fair then?
10:39	justin_smith	SagiCZ1: arguably it isn't - it was a compromise made for smaller population states when they were convinced to form a national government
10:39	agarman	it's not fair. it's not supposed to be fair. it's a compromise made to make a federation of states acceptable to states with less population.
10:41	SagiCZ1	then again.. does it matter? i feel like americans consider two-party system normal.. but in the democracies in the rest of the world it is common to choose from 4, 5 or even 10 parties.. seems to me that two parties can be very close in their goals, so its not much to choose from.. for example they would be both considered right-wing in traditional EU politics
10:41	agarman	There are more than two parties in US. It's just that the many smaller parties caucus together under the two party system.
10:44	SagiCZ1	i see.. i have never heard of a third party in the US
10:46	agarman	It's because the two primary parties do what they can to absorb 3rd parties. For a 3rd party to get traction, its goals would have to be so antithetical to the existing two parties that neither could absorb it while still being relevant to a substantial percentage of the electorate.
10:46	justin_smith	SagiCZ1: bringing this full circle, the project I am working on today is a datomic db of campaign contributions, based on raw data from the Oregon Secretary of State
10:47	agarman	nice
10:47	SagiCZ1	justin_smith: great! so you must undestand the system perfectly
10:47	justin_smith	currently struggling with normalizing the data and merging duplicate entities
10:47	justin_smith	SagiCZ1: "understand perfectly" would be a huge overstatement
10:47	SagiCZ1	good ol' distinct will solve that i am sure
10:48	agarman	@SagiCZ1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factions_in_the_Republican_Party_(United_States) is a nice article on the factions that make the Republican party.
10:48	justin_smith	SagiCZ1: campaign a is funded by "Joe Bloggs" campaign b is by "Joe R. Bloggs" - distinct won't help there sadly, sometimes people use variant names...
10:48	agarman	@SagiCZ1 I don't think anyone has a perfect understanding of US politics because it's truly chaotic.
10:49	agarman	@justin_smith is this for fun or a work project?
10:49	justin_smith	work
10:50	SagiCZ1	agarman: well i guess that's typical for systems that are brand new.. like java has some things we dont like about it and C# could learn from those mistakes.. people forget that us democracy worked in the same time europe was still in the dark ages almost :)
11:24	justin_smith	http://i.imgur.com/TChcAwn.jpg
11:49	hellofunk	SagiCZ1 actually one of America’s most revered presidents also had the largest third-party majority of any election in U.S. history
11:49	hellofunk	actually, “majority” isn’t the right word, but third party presence
12:24	EvanR	,(clojure.string/replace "a \\ b" #"\\" "3")
12:24	clojurebot	"a 3 b"
12:24	EvanR	,(clojure.string/replace "a \\w b" #"\\w" "3")
12:24	clojurebot	"a 3 b"
12:27	EvanR	,(clojure.string/replace "a \\w b" #"\\w" "\\")
12:27	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: character to be escaped is missing>
12:27	EvanR	^
12:28	EvanR	,(clojure.string/replace "a \\w b" #"\\w" "\\\\")
12:28	clojurebot	"a \\ b"
12:28	EvanR	ffs
12:29	alejandrozf	Hi!, I want to start making mobile apps but don't like java, do you think clojure would be an option to replace it and could you pointed some links? thanks.
12:35	xemdetia	alejandrozf, I don't think so. Android is kind of a weird platform to develop for and while eventually you may be able to bring clojure in I would not recommend starting there.
12:38	justin_smith	EvanR: what are you trying to do?
12:38	alejandrozf	xemdetia: well, thanks for your reply but how I can avoid Java then?
12:38	xemdetia	alejandrozf, are you trying to develop for android?
12:38	justin_smith	alejandrozf: I have heard of good results targetting clojurescript to rhino on android though
12:39	justin_smith	but cljs is a bit more complex to get set up
12:39	alejandrozf	xemdetia: yes, but TOTAL newbie in mobile...
12:39	EvanR	justin_smith: replace backslash K with backslash, for some letter K
12:40	alejandrozf	thanks justin_smith
12:41	xemdetia	alejandrozf, I would definitely just suck it up and start with java. The core of the system is built on java and you need to know how that works to be successful. It's not like developing on a normal PC by any stretch as many of the rules are different. Get your sea legs first because you may end up having to write a lot of interface code even if you do use another language
12:42	xemdetia	There's also the cljs route, or you can try xamarin or phonegap or one of the other things that attempt to target mobile as a universal platform
12:42	justin_smith	EvanR: backslash prints as \\ in strings
12:42	EvanR	yes
12:42	justin_smith	,(println "hello\\")
12:42	clojurebot	hello\\n
12:42	justin_smith	,"hello\\"
12:42	clojurebot	"hello\\"
12:42	EvanR	thats fine, though im not printing anything
12:42	EvanR	im trying to replace
12:43	justin_smith	EvanR: point is, the string will look like \ is doubled - that's just the escaping
12:43	justin_smith	sorry, the println obscured what I meant
12:43	justin_smith	,(println "hello \\ backslash")
12:43	clojurebot	hello \ backslash\n
12:43	EvanR	correct, my problem was not interpreting the rendering of the result
12:43	justin_smith	so you got the right result with "a \\ b" that is a single backslash
12:43	justin_smith	gotcha, so we both understand now :)
12:44	EvanR	,(clojure.string/replace "a \\w b" #"\\w" "\\\\") ; this is the final version
12:44	clojurebot	"a \\ b"
12:44	EvanR	the set of four backslashes was what was throwing me off
12:45	alejandrozf	thanks xemdetia, l like a lot Lisp dialects so I imagined clojure, abcl, kawa or something else would be an option :(
12:45	justin_smith	yeah, because the replacement string is interpreted specially (so you can use \1 etc. for match interpolation)
12:45	EvanR	one more gotcha like this and backslash will have to be specified by typing eight backslashes
12:45	justin_smith	haha
12:45	TimMc	leaning toothpicks
12:45	EvanR	when all i want is to replace one string with another
12:45	zB0hs	is there any different between (-> q -.target -.previousSibling -.value) and (.-value (.-previousSibling (.-target q)))
12:45	TimMc	I've had to do eight before.
12:46	EvanR	for a generic code that replaces one string with another, you have to run the replacement through an escape?
12:47	justin_smith	EvanR: then why not ##(.replace "a \\w b" "\\w" "\\") no regexes
12:47	lazybot	⇒ "a \\ b"
12:47	justin_smith	if all you want is exact matches, I suggest just using .replace
12:47	EvanR	good
12:49	xemdetia	alejandrozf, eventually maybe but Java is basically the C of what you are normally allowed to touch on Android. If you are just getting started I would work with that because even in my idle experimentation you can and will run into a lot of silly edge cases. Once you know? sure do it in a different language, but there is a lot of tribal knowledge you kind of need for Android.
12:49	EvanR	im surprised #"\\w" isnt the regex for any word character
12:51	justin_smith	also, android is not quite complient java implementation - or is at least a weird one
12:51	TimMc	&(re-seq #"\w" "a1_- ^")
12:51	lazybot	⇒ ("a" "1" "_")
12:51	TimMc	EvanR: Depends how you define "word character".
12:51	EvanR	oh
12:51	TimMc	and it's \\w
12:51	TimMc	ugh
12:51	EvanR	inside # one \
12:52	TimMc	Yeah, #"" takes care of one level of backslashes for you.
12:52	justin_smith	scsh style sexp regex syntax anyone?
12:52	TimMc	justin_smith: Yes please.
12:52	EvanR	confucius
12:53	TimMc	justin_smith: At least as an option to turn to for uglier ones.
12:53	alejandrozf	xemdetia, justin_smith and Java is "almost The C" for other mobile platforms too?
12:53	justin_smith	http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-115/srfi-115.html
12:53	justin_smith	alejandrozf: not really - each has its own favored native layer, with very little compatibility
12:54	justin_smith	TimMc: yeah, I also think regex sexps would be worth implementing
12:54	justin_smith	maybe when I free up some time in my "cool project" roster...
12:56	justin_smith	google says "sre scheme regex +clojure"
12:56	justin_smith	err, no results for that is
13:05	justin_smith	gfredericks: do you think any of your work with regexes would be helpful in implementing this regex construction syntax in clojure? http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-115/srfi-115.html
13:07	andyf	EvanR: Regarding your difficulties with replacements involving backslashes, I?ve tried to make the doc string for clojure.string/replace as explicit as I can for these cases, but it does require careful reading.
13:07	andyf	The simplest thing for constant strings to replace is not to use regex?s.
13:08	EvanR	i knew that, but im not at the point where i think to use anything in java for anything
13:08	EvanR	some basic operations seem to be provided by the "host" system
13:09	EvanR	and youre expected to use them directly rather than through a standard interface
13:09	justin_smith	EvanR: yeah, seeing interop as "idiomatic" was a big jump for me, but it can really help with getting things done cleanly, funny enough
13:10	justin_smith	actually, it was amalloy that finally convinced me of that
13:10	andyf	EvanR: I don't understand why you say that. How does having clojure.string/replace available mean that Clojure is expecting you to use Java APIs?
13:10	justin_smith	(inc amalloy)
13:10	lazybot	⇒ 208
13:11	EvanR	andyf: as you said, i shouldnt be trying to use regex at all so its moot that its available
13:12	justin_smith	actually yeah, if you don't feed it regex, things do just work ##(clojure.string/replace "a \\w b" "\\w" "\\")
13:12	lazybot	⇒ "a \\ b"
13:12	EvanR	a doc that said "use .replace, not replace and not clojure.string/replace for what you want" somehow...
13:12	justin_smith	EvanR: see above - just not using a regex is also an option (I had forgotten)
13:12	EvanR	ok, more magic
13:12	EvanR	well .replace is shorter
13:13	justin_smith	EvanR: not magic, type dispatch. Regex and String are not the same type
13:13	andyf	The doc for clojure.string/replace pretty clearly says that a pattern of a string and replacement of a string is supported, and in that case both are treated literally
13:13	EvanR	its never magic, im just lashing out at the overloading
13:13	EvanR	its a huge doc string with poor formating i didnt even really read it
13:14	andyf	Funny. That is the opposite complaint of most people about Clojure doc strings (i.e. "too long")
13:14	EvanR	the name of the the function, clojure.string/replace (which i used a total of 6 times in a row, then required me to fidding with the namespacing which i failed to do, because of "replace" already existing, so .replace is a great way out of this
13:16	EvanR	actually its not that long, thought it was at least a page
13:17	andyf	20 lines is a page?
13:17	EvanR	the thing before or after this i was looking at was the height of my monitor
13:19	andyf	Anyway, carry on. The overloading of replace and replace-first behaviors depending upon argument types can be confusing. Just avoid regex if you don't need them. And if you do, consider using re-quote-replacement on the replacement string to avoid the first issue you brought up.
13:20	EvanR	yes, avoiding regex
13:25	alejandrozf	xemdetia: xamarin is opensource?
13:29	xemdetia	alejandrozf, I do not think so. I just mention it because it is the top of my mind and it uses C# instead
13:30	alejandrozf	xemdetia: ok, thanks again :)
13:34	EvanR	is there an nth which gives nil instead of an exception
13:34	justin_smith	in order to target all those platforms, I assume it must be using the open source mono stack though (who knows how this turns out now that the clr is open sourcing though)
13:34	EvanR	,(nth [1 2 3] 3 nil)
13:34	clojurebot	nil
13:34	EvanR	nvm
13:37	xemdetia	justin_smith, yes I know they are using mono but I don't know how open source it is as an overall whole. I haven't used it- I just have the t-shirt and it was in my laundry this morning
13:39	Glenjamin	is there a good way to "bail out" of a threading macro?
13:40	Glenjamin	eg, I want to put an error check halfway down, and not perform the other operations if that's the case
13:42	Glenjamin	hrm, actually in this case it makes more sense to throw an exception anyway
13:42	TimMc	Just use goto.
13:44	Glenjamin	the proper fix is really to separate the "did this work?" part from the "grab an ID out of the response" part
13:45	Glenjamin	haven't touched this code for a year, so will probably do that after i've warmed up a bit
13:45	TimMc	Glenjamin: If you don't need extra info, you can yield nil and use some->
13:45	EvanR	there can be many levels of correctness the data can be at
13:45	Glenjamin	i wanted to capture the error message
13:50	gfredericks	justin_smith: so that's an sexp-based regex thing? is that the main point?
14:04	justin_smith	gfredericks: yeah, so that you can use macros and standard collection functions etc. to construct and compose regexes
14:04	justin_smith	gfredericks: may be totally unrelated to what you were doing though
14:05	daniel_	im sending a delete request to a liberator resource, :delete! is never called only :handle-ok
14:05	justin_smith	gfredericks: or maybe after going so deep into regex stuff you would either say "that would be some much better" or "that would be a pointless waste of time"
14:06	justin_smith	gfredericks simulator: ##(rand-nth ["greate idea" "pointless waste of time"])
14:06	lazybot	⇒ "greate idea"
14:06	justin_smith	haha, the typo makes it better
14:07	xemdetia	This should be the standard of all new feature libs
14:07	joobus	using xamarin requires a license to be able to compile builds, fyi
14:08	joobus	i currently use xamarin, if there are questions about it
14:09	xemdetia	sdegutis, somebody asked about starting android development with clojure as a complete novice to avoid using Java
14:09	sdegutis	ok
14:10	sdegutis	We really are fortunate. So many people are being killed and abused and starving, and we're faced with the task of choosing which language we prefer to use to write a mobile app.
14:10	EvanR	so what interface does empty? require, ISeq? how do i test if something can be empty?ed
14:11	EvanR	sequential and seq both seem to give false negatives
14:13	justin_smith	(source empty?)
14:13	sdegutis	(doc empty?)
14:13	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns true if coll has no items - same as (not (seq coll)). Please use the idiom (seq x) rather than (not (empty? x))"
14:13	alejandrozf	yes, was me :), I was reading a lot about xamarin, think I don't like it, looking now for Phonegap
14:14	justin_smith	anyway, it comes out to "(fn [coll] (not (seq coll)))"
14:14	EvanR	what can be seqed
14:14	justin_smith	that's tricky actually - all the collections, plus string and maybe something else I am forgetting
14:15	EvanR	,(seq? {})
14:15	clojurebot	false
14:15	joobus	if you are not intending to compile code to multiple platforms, don't use xamarin.
14:15	EvanR	,(instance? ISeq {})
14:15	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: ISeq in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
14:15	justin_smith	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4019249/clojure-finding-out-if-a-collection-is-seq-able
14:15	justin_smith	EvanR: it's not a question of being seq, but being seqable
14:15	justin_smith	,(seq "hello")
14:15	EvanR	,(seqable? {})
14:15	clojurebot	(\h \e \l \l \o)
14:15	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: seqable? in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
14:16	justin_smith	EvanR: see my SO link above regarding seqable
14:16	EvanR	clojure.contrib.core
14:16	justin_smith	right, don't use contrib, but the info there should let you know what can be seqed
14:16	justin_smith	or you can just steal that one function
14:17	EvanR	for my case i know a subset of these is all ill encounter, so i can or it
14:26	alejandrozf	joobus: HTML5 solutions aren't enougth for "multiplatform" mobile devices?
14:30	justin_smith	alejandrozf: well, that's what phonegap is about, right?
14:30	daniel_	im sending a delete request to a liberator resource, :delete! is never called only :handle-ok
14:31	alejandrozf	justin_smith, yes I'm walking this way :) , what do you think?
14:38	justin_smith	alejandrozf: I have not tried it, but have strongly considered it (and have worked with frontend people who did similar stuff with things in the site / app uncanny valley)
14:38	justin_smith	it seems like cljs/om would be an awesome way to make an html5 app (depending on what kind of UI / UE you need of course)
14:40	alejandrozf	justin_smith: thanks! cljs == clojurescript, but om == ?
14:41	justin_smith	alejandrozf: om is dnolen_ 's cljs lib wrapping react (which offers cool things leveraging react that react can't do on its own)
14:41	justin_smith	and react is a facebook UI lib for js
14:42	alejandrozf	justin_smith: ahh! seems nice!
14:44	quizdr	yeah
14:44	atyz	Does anyone have an opinion on this library? https://github.com/ptaoussanis/timbre
14:46	arrdem	timbre is ok
14:46	tcrayford____	atyz: I've used it in the past. These days I just lean for println (with a wrapper to prevent the race conditions in clojure's println)
14:46	justin_smith	atyz: it works, sometimes I wish it did not have a global config
14:46	atyz	arrdem: have you used it in production?
14:47	atyz	justin_smith: they way it does configs is weird. Are you expected to initialize your config on app startup?
14:47	justin_smith	atyz: you can modify the config at any time, it's just that there is only one global config
14:48	arrdem	atyz: yeah it's running on http://conj.io right now.
14:49	atyz	justin_smith: Im confused as to how you set your global config? It doesn't seem like it reads from a file. Which means I'll be setting it in a function on app startup
14:50	atyz	The profiling part of this library also seems rather foreign? It seems like something that could be a separate library
14:50	dnolen_	hrm how do you get lein to print the jvm command it will run with the classpath, options etc.?
14:50	arrdem	atyz: it has a single var.. I forget whether it's an atom or a dynamic var, that's used to store a single logging configuration for your entire application.
14:50	justin_smith	dnolen_: :eval-in pprint
14:50	arrdem	atyz: this means you can't have "logging contexts" that behave differently nicely.
14:51	atyz	arrdem: in teh docs it just looks like a regular var
14:51	atyz	But I'm unsure of how I'm supposed to globally set this
14:52	atyz	I would have probably had it read from a file and allowed the overwrites of the config when needed
14:52	atyz	But maybe I'm thinking about this wrong
14:53	justin_smith	dnolen_: that is, just adding :eval-in pprint at the top level, outputs all that stuff instead of running your app with lein run
15:02	beppu	Is http://tryclj.com/ working for everyone else? I'm trying to defn a function, but I can't seem to call it.
15:05	justin_smith	beppu: http://i.imgur.com/hlXIv8T.png
15:07	justin_smith	beppu: "The interpreter deletes the data that you enter if you define too many things, or after 15 minutes"
15:08	beppu	justin_smith: Yeah, it was working for me earlier today and then it stopped. Do I have to clear my session cookies?
15:09	beppu	justin_smith: clearing my cookies for tryclj.com made it work again.
15:10	dnolen_	justin_smith: thanks
15:16	daniel_	im sending a delete request to a liberator resource, :delete! is never called only :handle-ok, anyone have any idea why that would be?
15:25	mgaare	daniel_: if you turn debugging on, you can see the decision tree in the headers of the response
15:25	daniel_	magnars: interesting, thanks
15:25	daniel_	forgot about that
15:29	daniel_	weird, no headers for the delete request
15:29	borkdude	I need to save a hashmap with one of the values being a byte array into a file for export and importing, any best practices here?
15:29	daniel_	but for get i see them
15:29	mgaare	borkdude: could look at Fressian
15:29	borkdude	I could maybe base64 encode the bytes and save it just as a string
15:31	justin_smith	borkdude: yeah, round tripping via base64 is how I would do it
15:31	mgaare	daniel_: none at all? perhaps it's not hitting liberator?
15:32	daniel_	mgaare: i think its with my route definitions
15:32	daniel_	i have /api/files defined but not /api/files/:id for delete
15:32	mgaare	ah
15:33	daniel_	im used to having a resource define all the different http methods and know what the singular routes should be
15:34	daniel_	i guess this isnt the liberator way, most example i see define separate list and detail resources
15:35	daniel_	indeed mgaare, it was missing the route
15:35	daniel_	it kind of pains me to have to write all the routes explicitely for CRUD endpoints
15:37	justin_smith	daniel_: can you sub in a data driven function instead of defresource? I guess at worst you could write a macro that ingests a big data structure describing endpoints and calls defresource on them
15:48	daniel_	justin_smith: indeed i could, i will try and do something along those lines
15:51	bacon198`	so what's this talk about clojure 1.7 having seamless files between clojure, clojurescript, and clojureclr?
15:51	justin_smith	daniel_: this was a big motivator in our design of caribou - we ended up replacing compojure so that it would be easier to define routes programmatically based on data in the CMS
15:53	badyl	hi, can someone tell me how I could integrate an app written with Stuart Sierra's component and compojure to be run as a war/servlet app?
15:53	bacon198`	feature expressions
15:53	badyl	I was searching the internet but couldn't find any examples. The name of the framework/library don't help with googling :)
15:59	borkdude	nice, fressian works well
16:04	mgaare	daniel_: with liberator, I think it's idiomatic to define routes with ALL and let liberator handle the logic for the different verbs
16:06	mgaare	badyl: do you have a hook to run a main function in your container?
16:06	mgaare	I only know how to do this in immutant
16:08	badyl	mgaare: I think it would try to start another web server in the war container
16:09	badyl	I was thinking about having compojure routes a reference to a "business" or "logic" component from the system object and calling fuctions with that component
16:09	badyl	so basically the "web" part wouldn't be part of my "componentized" system
16:14	phood	∞
16:14	mgaare	badyl: I think the idiomatic way to this is define a 'web app' component that has the web handler, and has dependencies on whatever other components you need. on startup, it wraps the handler in some middlewares that add the other components to the request map, and the resulting handler is what you'd pass to the container as the web handler
16:16	mgaare	stuart talked about this in one of the presentations he did on it
16:18	badyl	mgaare: thanks for the pointers
16:18	badyl	I will take a look
16:20	danielszmulewicz	badyl: Have a look at the example directory in https://github.com/danielsz/system
16:24	badyl	danielszmulewicz: thanks, I will check it out
16:25	badyl	danielszmulewicz: can the example project produce a war that can be deployed in servlet container?
16:28	badyl	danielszmulewicz: I would like to build with lein-ring and its uberwar task
16:28	danielszmulewicz	badyl: Yes, no reason it wouldn't. It's a standard ring handler. So standard leiningen practices apply.
16:30	badyl	danielszmulewicz: thanks again, I will try it
18:05	EvanR	can i get a [a & b] binding to set b to () when binding a singleton list
18:05	amalloy	EvanR: no, you get nil
18:05	EvanR	i see that
18:05	amalloy	that is what you are stuck with. why do you need an empty list instead?
18:06	EvanR	if i change my check from empty? to nil? i will silently accept bugs that produce nils
18:06	EvanR	im less likely (maybe?) to get accidental ()
18:07	amalloy	EvanR: so don't destructure it before testing it
18:07	EvanR	yeah i was just wondering if there was a less verbose way
18:08	EvanR	seems natural to me, but obviously nil is more natural to some people
18:09	EvanR	i.e. "in & a, a contains the list of remaining elements", well its not so simple
18:10	amalloy	EvanR: personally, i would rather that &a were set to () instead of nil, for different reasons
18:10	amalloy	but it doesn't, and it's way too late to change
18:11	m1dnight_	is there a particular reason there is no set! in clojure?
18:11	m1dnight_	I was just wondering :)
18:11	m1dnight_	like in scheme you can set let bindings and stuff
18:11	EvanR	there is set!
18:11	EvanR	but not for let bindings
18:11	amalloy	m1dnight_: because immutability is a big deal
18:11	m1dnight_	i understand yes
18:12	m1dnight_	so its more of a way to force functional style?
18:12	EvanR	not being able to mutate lexical bindings makes me feel better
18:12	EvanR	you can still do it by using a mutable variable explicitly, like a ref or atom
18:13	EvanR	or the java array trick
18:14	amalloy	or also ztellman/proteus, for the real bad boys of clojure
18:17	m1dnight_	yeah or you could do a deftype of a node for a list and stuff
18:17	m1dnight_	i tried it once but it's just nasty
18:19	gfredericks	justin_smith: yeah, probably unrelated; most of what I've been doing has been parsing string representations, and learning jvm quirks and unicode stuff
18:34	justin_smith	gfredericks: if I can pull myself away from my awesome new microphones, I may just try implementing something like resexps
18:35	m1dnight_	guys, what happens if an expression throws an error in a binding (threadlocal var), does the binding remain in the handling of the catch?
18:35	m1dnight_	I can't think of a quick and easy test scenario :p so perhaps somebody could tell me
18:36	m1dnight_	otherwise ill mock something up
18:36	m1dnight_	wait, nvm
18:36	EvanR	x=crash, catch print x ?
18:36	gfredericks	justin_smith: it'd be fun I'm sure, and you could even generalize it to sequences of arbitrary things
18:36	EvanR	twilight zone
18:37	gfredericks	justin_smith: and if you do that, make sure to compile to test.check generators too
18:37	justin_smith	ohhh yeahhh....
18:38	EvanR	in prismatic schema, is it possible to specify a non-empty list
18:38	gfredericks	with pred at least
18:38	gfredericks	EvanR: ^
18:38	EvanR	ok
18:39	m1dnight_	damnit, the binding is lost
18:39	m1dnight_	to the thinkmobile then :(
18:40	amalloy	m1dnight_: it sounds like the things you are trying to figure out how to do might be evil and misguided
18:40	amalloy	instead of focusing on this one particular approach to solving your problem, perhaps think more about what your problem actually is, so you can find an approach that's less awful
18:41	m1dnight_	amalloy: well, it's for my thesis and im guessing that if somebody read my code a few people would be turning in their graves, i admit that :p
18:41	m1dnight_	I'm trying to implement something like transactors in clojure
18:41	{blake}	Satanic doctorates.
18:42	m1dnight_	the gist of it is that I have macro receive and I can nest them (like erlang) like (receive [:message] (something) (receive [:inner] (code)))
18:43	m1dnight_	and when the sending actor fails it propagates to all receiving actors
18:43	SagiCZ1	how could i use clojure to create simple webpages for my own blogging purposes? i am new to this
18:43	m1dnight_	but when :message is received from actor A, and :inner from B, suppose that A fails. then I have to throw the "ParentFail" exception. However, this happens in the inner receive. so I have to propagate the error through to the outer receive
18:44	hellofunk	SagiCZ1: you could play with Ring and host some static pages somewhere, or you could write a postgres app on heroku which would get you in deeper to backend clojure work
18:44	m1dnight_	so if I could handle the error inside the (binding [sending-context]..) then I would be out of the woods
18:44	SagiCZ1	hellofunk: and what about clojurescript? can i throw that in too?
18:44	{blake}	SagiCZ1: There are some tutorials online that show blogging as an example.
18:45	hellofunk	SagiCZ1: blogging usually refers to a server-side setup that is separate from the front end, but of course cljs is great for front end work too
18:45	{blake}	SagiCZ1: I wouldn't throw in ClojureScript at first. It's a fair-sized chunk just for the server-sde stuff.
18:45	hellofunk	or you could broaden you pool of web hosts and forget about a clojure server end and just use cljs to host the entire blog in the browser.
18:45	SagiCZ1	what database would i use for storing the stuff?
18:46	hellofunk	SagiCZ1: depends on the server you use. Heroku uses postgres
18:46	arrdem	With Ring, is there a good hack for updating a parameter in a request and then retrying the request?
18:47	arrdem	it seems like (handler (update-in req ..)) should work.
18:47	{blake}	arrdem: That would've been my guess =P
18:48	arrdem	:c well that's what I've got going on right now in my REPL and it's not behaving as expected so..
18:49	{blake}	arrdem: Huh. How is it different from, say, logging in? Like, I use "(assoc (resp/redirect "/") :session {:user username})" to do that.
18:49	m1dnight_	I just found a tutorial on a blog in clojure on a website on christianity and clojure. That's a combo you don't see every day.
18:49	{blake}	Rich Hickey died for your stateful sins.
18:50	arrdem	{blake}: I suspect there are some headers I'm not reseting or something.
18:51	TimMc	{blake}: Heart attack before I finished reading your msg, man.
18:52	{blake}	arrdem: Well, I'm just getting the hang of it myself. :-/
18:52	{blake}	TimMc: lol...sorry...it was in poor taste.
18:52	EvanR	the best kind of taste
18:53	{blake}	If it wasn't for bad taste, I'd have no taste at all.
18:53	TimMc	{blake}: I think it was fine in context, I was just reading scrollback backwards. :-P
18:53	{blake}	heheh the hazards of time travel
18:53	TimMc	Rich Hickey fell out of a hammock several times for your sins.
18:54	{blake}	Doesn't sound like much but it's a lot of bruising when you consider how many of us there are.
18:57	arrdem	Hah gotit!
18:57	{blake}	And?
18:58	arrdem	there was some routing stuff you had to dissoc out of the map
18:59	arrdem	but we were basically there
18:59	{blake}	Cool. Interesting.
19:15	arrdem	Grimoire 0.4.5 up, now with an official API driver: https://github.com/clojure-grimoire/lib-grimoire
19:27	dbasch	{blake}: Rich Hickey is immortal. Dying would require changing state.
19:28	{blake}	dbasch: I assume he's declared as an atom.
19:29	EvanR	hes in a singleton java array
19:29	amalloy	maybe that's why he's always telling us not to use too many atoms? highlander-style, there can be only one
19:33	gfredericks	,(nth (iterate atom 42) 7)
19:33	clojurebot	#<Atom@51158898: #<Atom@4c76ae6e: #<Atom@6923e1ad: #<Atom@5def363a: #<Atom@20c33457: #<Atom@59bffbff: #<Atom@2fe747ec: 42>>>>>>>
19:34	amalloy	oh interesting, that's not impacted by print-level
19:34	EvanR	nooo youll run out
19:34	amalloy	er, print-depth?
19:34	amalloy	whatever it is
19:34	gfredericks	clojurebot: swap-in! is like update-in but for nested atoms
19:34	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
19:36	arrdem	gfredericks: \|is\|
19:39	gfredericks	~swap-in!
19:39	clojurebot	swap-in! is like update-in but for nested atoms
19:39	gfredericks	arrdem: what would that accomplish?
19:40	amalloy	gfredericks: it's voodoo for wimps who don't know how clojurebot works as well as you do
19:50	gfredericks	clojurebot: foo? is an experiment
19:50	clojurebot	A nod, you know, is as good as a wink to a blind horse.
19:51	gfredericks	~foo??
19:51	lazybot	gfredericks: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
19:51	clojurebot	foo? is an experiment
19:51	gfredericks	this is the weirdest AOL chat room I've ever been in
19:58	amalloy	gfredericks: i'd be surprised if there weren't
20:00	amalloy	gfredericks: i'm trying to find this interesting article i read a few months ago about how AOL didn't want AIM to succeed
20:00	gfredericks	do they still have a web browser that I can download from my physical mailbox?
20:02	amalloy	gfredericks: found it! http://mashable.com/2014/04/15/aim-history/
20:04	gfredericks	amalloy: cool, thanks
20:13	gfredericks	I'm having a hard time not seeing this regex-feature-nobody-uses as super buggy
20:14	gfredericks	,(re-matches #"[x&&[x]]" "x")
20:14	clojurebot	"x"
20:14	gfredericks	,(re-matches #"[x&&[x]y]" "x")
20:14	clojurebot	nil
20:14	gfredericks	^ there's just no excuse for that
20:14	gfredericks	and nothing in the spec that suggests you can't do it
20:15	amalloy	gfredericks: is there anything in the spec at all?
20:15	gfredericks	the Pattern.java docs I mean
20:16	gfredericks	their only example for using intersection is: [a-z&&[aeiou]]
20:16	amalloy	well maybe that's the only way you're supposed to use it
20:16	amalloy	ruby is the only other engine that supports this feature, right? is theirs documented?
20:17	gfredericks	they talk about them as "operators" with "precedence"
20:17	amalloy	...
20:17	gfredericks	looks like it
20:17	amalloy	gfredericks: i know you've read http://www.regular-expressions.info/charclassintersect.html, but have you read it recently?
20:17	gfredericks	ruby's example in fact is /[a-w&&[^c-g]z]/ # ([a-w] AND ([^c-g] OR z))
20:18	amalloy	specifically, "Intersection of Multiple Classes"
20:18	gfredericks	which they claim is equivalent to /[abh-w]/
20:18	gfredericks	"Java has bugs" is what that link says :)
20:19	gfredericks	so...right then.
20:20	amalloy	is your goal with this still to produce a test.check generator from an arbitrary regex?
20:21	gfredericks	yes
20:21	gfredericks	well
20:21	gfredericks	or to tell you if I can't/won't
20:21	gfredericks	which applies here
20:22	gfredericks	but I gotta determine the scope of the bug so I can recognize it
20:22	amalloy	(regex-gen #"[x&&[x]y]") ;=> "c'mon man, y u do dis"
20:23	gfredericks	e.g. (regex-gen #"[a&&b]") throws an exception since it's unmatcheable
20:25	TEttinger	I would just not implement that particular regex feature
20:25	TEttinger	if it has && or \|\|, it fails the test
20:25	TEttinger	because it will in practice
20:26	gfredericks	but it's so easy to implement the non buggy cases :P
20:26	amalloy	i don't think \|\| exists, TEttinger
20:26	gfredericks	\|\| is implicit
20:26	TEttinger	good
20:26	gfredericks	oh man http://stackoverflow.com/questions/21934168/bug-in-double-negation-of-regex-character-classes
20:26	gfredericks	TEttinger: I'd consider that but there's actually a few things that are difficult to express without &&
20:27	gfredericks	I think.
20:27	gfredericks	don't ask me for an example.
20:29	amalloy	gfredericks: i dunno, isn't #"[a&&b]" equivalent to like #"(?=[a])(?=[b])." for any a/b?
20:30	gfredericks	huhwhat?
20:30	gfredericks	I'm saying it's an empty character class, I can't tell if you're contradicting that or not
20:31	gfredericks	or you're arguing that it's expressable with lookahead
20:31	amalloy	gfredericks: i'm using a and b as variables here, not literal characters a and b
20:31	gfredericks	ok
20:31	gfredericks	well I don't support lookahead anyhow so :P
20:31	amalloy	!!!!!!
20:31	gfredericks	patches welcome
20:31	amalloy	that feature is way more important than this intersection bullshit
20:31	TEttinger	lookahead sounds much more important than intersection agreed
20:31	TEttinger	(inc amalloy)
20:31	lazybot	⇒ 209
20:32	TEttinger	it's probably used at least two orders of magnitude more frequently
20:32	amalloy	like, i can get behind skipping lookahead because it's hard
20:32	gfredericks	I don't doubt that
20:32	amalloy	it doesn't need to be perfect to be useful
20:32	gfredericks	but implementing it is harder
20:32	gfredericks	at least in a solid way
20:32	amalloy	but supporting intersected character classes is something i would drop way before that
20:32	amalloy	because nobody in the world will ever use that feature, and if they do you should shoot them
20:33	gfredericks	but I've spent so much time on them so far, so the sunk cost falacy says I have to press on
20:33	amalloy	well, no arguing with that
20:33	amalloy	if only you could lookahead in your own life, and see the further sunk costs coming
20:33	gfredericks	alright fine you've convinced me
20:33	TEttinger	clojurebot: character class intersection \|is\| <amalloy> because nobody in the world will ever use that feature, and if they do you should shoot them
20:33	clojurebot	Alles klar
20:33	gfredericks	now how do I do lookahead
20:34	TEttinger	check java's impl first?
20:34	gfredericks	for what?
20:34	TEttinger	lookahead
20:34	gfredericks	and do what with that?
20:34	amalloy	TEttinger: remember he's doing it in reverse
20:34	TEttinger	eh? amalloy?
20:34	amalloy	gfredericks: man, i dunno. i'd support it by not supporting it, but i don't know anything about your implementation
20:35	amalloy	i'm just saying if you are willing to drop features at all (and like i said, dropping support for lookaround seems fine), you might as well drop intersection
20:36	amalloy	TEttinger: he is not writing a regex matcher, but a regex generator: given a regex, produce strings that it matches
20:36	TEttinger	ok
20:36	gfredericks	it's actually probably easy
20:37	gfredericks	to do rudimentary lookahead
20:37	gfredericks	well no wait positive is hard
20:37	gfredericks	negative is easy, just filter
20:37	gfredericks	which has its own thorns but is good enough to start with
20:37	gfredericks	but positive lookahead sounds sooper hard
20:37	amalloy	gfredericks: well, both sorts of lookahead have the problem that the most obvious way to solve them involves a lot of luck
20:38	amalloy	like, #"(?=a)(?=b)."
20:38	gfredericks	amalloy: yeah I guess they are the same, negative just seemed like it required less luck in common cases
20:38	amalloy	it's pretty hard to see that this will never match
20:38	gfredericks	but I don't actually know much about common cases
20:38	gfredericks	heck I'd have to implement a generic matcher :P or just compile a subset of the regex via the jvm
20:39	gfredericks	yep I give up
20:44	numberten	is there a 'preduce'-esque function?
20:44	numberten	for when your function is associative?
20:45	TEttinger	numberten, pmap is rarely the answer
20:46	TEttinger	not sure how preduce would be any better
20:46	numberten	i've used pmap for a lot of things :/
20:46	numberten	rough and dirty parallelism at the drop of a keystroke is really nice sometimes :)
20:46	TEttinger	clojure's other concurrency primitives are generally a lot better though
20:47	numberten	is there a primitive for parallel reductions?
20:48	amalloy	guys i finally reached my limit: found a scenario where i can't bear to use -> and doto instead of just naming a local. https://www.refheap.com/592e994b1727f4c72de79ddc7
20:48	gfredericks	wtf amalloy
20:49	TEttinger	one line difference, amalloy
20:49	amalloy	TEttinger: well, the one line is just because emacs indents doto inside of a -> a little weirdly
20:50	amalloy	really the problem is that the soup of ->/doto is completely illegible
20:50	TEttinger	yes
20:50	amalloy	even though i love ->/doto soups usually
20:51	amalloy	,(-> (java.util.ArrayList.) (doto (doto (doto (doto (.add 1))))))
20:51	clojurebot	[1]
20:51	amalloy	<3
20:51	adu	it sounds like you love doto almost as much as haskellers love monads
20:52	gfredericks	a doto is like a burrito
20:52	amalloy	i have feelings about -> and doto that are inappropriate to discuss in public
20:57	gfredericks	pop quiz: what does #"\v" match
20:57	kenrestivo	i'm a linux shell guy so i love -> (and not so much doto). if i were a haskell guy i suppose i'd have monadic religion
20:57	amalloy	gfredericks: same as #"v" i'd guess
20:58	gfredericks	nopes
20:58	amalloy	oh
20:58	amalloy	vertical line feed?
20:58	amalloy	vertical tab or something
20:58	amalloy	yeah
20:58	gfredericks	yeah
20:59	kenrestivo	those java interop boluses with all the dotos, lets, and ->'s are ugly, but consider the alternative: writing actual java
21:02	otti	hm did someone experience that, when creating a uberjar, that leiningen just hangs at some point
21:03	otti	without any errors or anything it just sits there and does nothing, thus it never finishes compiling the uberjar
21:03	amalloy	otti: your namespace does side effects at the top level instead of inside -main, eg starting up a webserver
21:04	amalloy	those are happening at compile time, so the jar can't be made until the webserver is done
21:04	otti	amalloy: thanks
21:06	amalloy	that's not the only possible issue, but it is by far the most common
21:06	adu	kenrestivo: in Haskell the monads that appear in do-notation usually only have one argument, so it's equivalent to doto and -> at the same time
21:12	tomjack	one argument?
21:23	adu	tomjack: well, the functions must have one remaining argument by the time the Monad sees it, it could be a 10-argument function that has 9 arguments given
21:25	adu	but that's just because Haskell functions are always in curried form
22:00	amalloy	yeah, i'm not sure what this one-argument thing is about either. do x <- f a b; g x c d desugars to: f a b >>= (\x -> g x c d); obviously that lambda has one arg, but it's not clear how that means "the monads have one argument"
23:44	tomjack	instead of "doto and ->" I think I'd say "generalized let"