#clojure – 2014-12-04

2014-12-04

01:03	rritoch	Is it possible to copy a var from one namespace to another in such a way that any bindings on that var will automatically appear on both namespaces?
01:05	rritoch	For example, creating a dynamic var in a library, and also linking that var to the clojure.core namespace to make it available globally.
02:29	dysfun	rritoch: have you tried interning the var?
02:30	dysfun	,(def :^dynamic t1 "foo")
02:30	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: :>
02:30	dysfun	,(def ^:dynamic t1 "foo")
02:30	clojurebot	#'sandbox/t1
02:31	akkad	irc support for eval is nice :P
02:32	dysfun	yeah, but i'm going to make a few mistakes figuring out how it's going to work, so i've moved to another terminal tab :)
02:32	rritoch	dysfun: No I haven't tried, but it does seem like a good way of doing it. Is there an upgrade-safe way of interning vars?
02:33	dysfun	'upgrade-safe'?
02:33	rritoch	dysfun: Upgrade safe means that it doesn't rely on undocumented features of clojure that are subject to change in future versions.
02:33	rritoch	dysfun: In other words it "should" work in all future versions of clojure
02:34	dysfun	well i don't think the semantics of intern are going to change any time soon, having read the clojure source code
02:34	rritoch	dysfun: If not, I'm OK with that, but keeping code upgrade safe when possible is ideal.
02:34	dysfun	well if you want to be sure, i'd recommend not doing that
02:35	dysfun	if you want values to be visible elsewhere, either put them there to start with (intern is fine for that) and then bind those instead
02:35	dysfun	or use an atom or something
02:35	dysfun	but e.g. noir doesn't try to solve this, you just import the dynamic var from their namespace and use it in all the modules you need to
02:36	dysfun	http://www.webnoir.org/autodoc/1.2.1/noir.request-api.html
02:36	cfleming	Hi everyone. A colleague of mine has a very strange problem with records.
02:36	cfleming	Refheap: https://www.refheap.com/94392
02:37	cfleming	What is happening is that a different class is returned depending on whether he uses the class constructor (TestRecord.) or the constructor function (->TestRecord)
02:38	cfleming	The classloader is also different - the constructor function version uses a dynamic classloader and the class constructor version uses the system classloader.
02:39	dysfun	that's some odd but easily explained behaviour. what i'm not seeing is why this matters
02:39	cfleming	dysfun: The record problem, you mean?
02:39	dysfun	clojure does a lot of clever things involving rather a lot of classloaders
02:40	dysfun	yes, what is the actual problem?
02:40	dysfun	is it you are having difficulty testing the identity?
02:40	cfleming	If you look at the refheap, only one of the records correctly dispatches the multimethod
02:40	dysfun	ooh i get it now
02:41	cfleming	Plus equality will fail, polymorphism won't work...
02:41	cfleming	I don't understand where the dynamic classloader is coming from.
02:41	dysfun	okay, perhaps i can explain that to you
02:41	dysfun	one really useful thing in clojure is being able to redefine things
02:42	dysfun	unfortunately owing to jvm limitations, you just can't
02:42	cfleming	Yup
02:42	dysfun	but you can take a classloader from before something was defined and use that, whereupon it doesn't exist
02:42	dysfun	clojure allocates a new classloader to every top level expression
02:43	cfleming	But all those classloaders should delegate to the system classloader, right?
02:44	dysfun	should they? then you wouldn't be able to load something twice
02:44	dysfun	i mean the loading mechanism is certainly the same, but the need to be able to redefine stuff is great
02:44	cfleming	They have to, otherwise you would end up loading all the clojure classes in every classloader.
02:44	cfleming	Symbol, Keyword, PersistentHashMap...
02:45	dysfun	classloaders work as a tree
02:45	cfleming	Right.
02:45	dysfun	so a classloader is almost like a new interpreter. as far as namespacing goes, it pretty much is
02:45	dysfun	and obviously you could limit it to loading from a specific jar etc.
02:46	cfleming	Only if everything is loaded into that classloader
02:46	dysfun	ah, that's where clojure does magic
02:46	cfleming	Which it can't be - those base level classes aren't reloaded on every expression.
02:46	dysfun	don't ask how it works, i'm not 100% on it but current understanding says it mostly works because clojure does value semantics on everything
02:47	cfleming	In this case I think I need to actually know how it works to figure out what's going on.
02:47	dysfun	in that case, you'll need to find someone with more understanding of the guts of clojure than me, or to read the source
02:47	dysfun	if you do figure it out, i'd love to know the answer
02:48	cfleming	Ok, I'll research around a bit.
02:48	dysfun	but hopefully you understand a bit more now
02:49	cfleming	Here's hoping - I can't find any information about this
02:50	rritoch	dysfun: What if he binds the app classloader to Compiler/LOADER ? It seems like ->Method is using RT, so if it does than binding Compiler/LOADER should prevent clojure from creating a new classloader, right?
02:50	cfleming	Joy of Clojure doesn't even contain the word classloader. Programming Clojure only mentions it once.
02:51	cfleming	Here's what I don't understand:
02:51	cfleming	I'm assuming that there must be a parent classloader that all these per-expression classloaders delegate to.
02:52	dysfun	rritoch: that seems like a reasonable workaround, i haven't tried it
02:52	dysfun	cfleming: do you understand how the classloader system works?
02:52	cfleming	In this case, it looks like the system classloader, because that's where the TestRecord class ends up being defined.
02:52	cfleming	dysfun: Yes I do.
02:52	cfleming	At least, I do in Java - I'm not sure how Clojure uses classloaders.
02:52	dysfun	well, i'm talking about the java bit
02:52	cfleming	Yes.
02:53	dysfun	about how delegation works, in particular
02:53	cfleming	Yep.
02:54	cfleming	So, in this case the TestRecord class ends up being defined in the system classloader, I'm assuming because that way it will be available to all future expressions in this file, even if they're using fresh classloaders.
02:54	dysfun	okay, try running that at the repl
02:54	cfleming	What I don't know is why the class later gets redefined in a different classloader, presumably a per-expression one.
02:55	dysfun	i get both as DynamicClassLoader
02:55	dysfun	and both as TestRecord
02:55	dysfun	are you AOTing, perchance?
02:56	cfleming	Yes, this is with lein compile
02:56	dysfun	right, turn off AOT on that namespace and try again
02:56	cfleming	I'm sure that will work.
02:56	cfleming	What I'd like to understand is why the other doesn't.
02:57	dysfun	well, see if it works first :)
03:01	cfleming	Yup, definitely works :-)
03:01	dysfun	well that's a start. now let's figure out why :)
03:01	cfleming	Interestingly, I see the same dynamic loader both times.
03:01	dysfun	"top level expression"
03:02	dysfun	oh, i read those as being nested, they are separate
03:03	dysfun	i don't know. it's not really my area (although i have some horrible classloader/securitymanager stuff on the horizon which will require me to learn more...)
03:04	cfleming	Right, they're separate.
03:06	cfleming	So, I can get the dynamic classloader of that class. I then navigated through its parent hierarchy - I have to go up 6 levels (!!!) of dynamic loaders before I get to the AppClassLoader
03:06	dysfun	classloaders are cheap
03:09	cfleming	Ok, so DCL uses the standard delegation model.
03:10	cfleming	If that's the case, then in the AOT example, if the class is defined in the system classloader, how does it ever get loaded into a DCL?
03:15	dysfun	is it defined in the system classloader though?
03:15	dysfun	i suspect it's defined further down the chain
03:15	dysfun	because i know you can in fact even load multiple clojure versions on the same jvm in parallel
03:15	dysfun	(see classlojure)
03:17	rritoch	dysfun: I tried the binding trick, it doesn't work, if I require from repl both use the application class loader, it is only during lein compile that this dynamic classloader gets generated.
03:18	cfleming	Yes, it is - see this line: ; .. #classloader.core.TestRecord{:foo nil} sun.misc.Launcher$AppClassLoader@288d539f 1971347490
03:19	dysfun	no, that just means it's being run on an AppClassLoader instance
03:19	dysfun	which isn't the same thing as the root classloader
03:20	cfleming	Right, I shouldn't have said the system class loader - what I mean is a standard classloader outside the DCL chain.
03:21	dysfun	is the whole thing done through subclassing? isn't it possible there's something that drives a classloader?
03:21	cfleming	I suspect it's being loaded there due to AOT, which is fine. What I don't know is why there's ever another instance of the record class defined
03:22	dysfun	oh, i may be able to explain that
03:22	cfleming	In fact, there's a bug which suggests that it's not - http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-371
03:22	dysfun	AOT generates a stub class, not the full thing
03:22	cfleming	Well, it is, but the AOT'ed one will always be found because it's always in a parent CL
03:22	cfleming	You're talking about gen-class though, right? Not classes generated from records?
03:24	dysfun	i'm not sure any more. i tend to always use the map->record form
03:25	dysfun	that and ->record are certainly workarounds
03:27	cfleming	Except it's not, really - the multimethod dispatch doesn't work.
03:27	cfleming	instance? won't either.
03:27	dysfun	your example shows it working?
03:28	dysfun	sorry if i'm being thick, it's still early here and i haven't finished my coffee, but it looks like it's working in the ->record case
03:29	dysfun	anyway, in general, AOT makes bad things happen which is why you should avoid it where possible
03:31	cfleming	Sadly that's not always an option.
03:31	dysfun	yeah, i know :(
03:31	cfleming	Here's what seems to be happening
03:32	cfleming	I think that the AOT compiles the class, and then it presumably gets loaded into the AppClassLoader when the ns is loaded.
03:33	cfleming	However the Compiler, whenever it sees a "new" expression uses LOADER.deref(), which is always a DynamicClassLoader
03:34	cfleming	Actually, wait - I think this is the stub you were talking about, my apologies, it looks like it does this in more cases than just gen-class
03:38	echo-area	I see that the version number of core.async contains "alpha". Is it now suitable to use it for production?
03:50	dysfun	cfleming: heh
03:50	dysfun	echo-area: that depends entirely upon your attitude to risk. in the sense of APIs may change, bugs may be fixed later
03:53	echo-area	dysfun: I have no experience using it yet, and so cannot be sure what kind of issues I would have. And my application is very serious. I think I might not put it into production at the moment.
03:53	echo-area	dysfun: Thanks
03:54	dysfun	echo-area: multithreaded programming in clojure is practically a joy, i'm reluctant to leave behind those niceties to write core.async
03:54	szymanowski	Hi, i'm struggling a bit here, i've got A: a lazy-seq of indexes, and B: a coll (possibly lazy-seq), i'm trying to write a fn that select all the indexes present in A from B, could anyone give me an hint for doing that properly?
03:55	echo-area	dysfun: Sure, and I am using agents by now.
03:55	dysfun	agents rock :)
03:56	rritoch	I'm not sure if this helps or not, but I found the source of the dynamic class loader. It seems TestRecord is interned into the namespace as the symbol TestRecord, but when using dot notation (TestRecord.) it doesn't use the interned class which seems to be a bug
03:57	rritoch	When I added (println (pr-str (.getClassLoader TestRecord))) to the source file, it outputs the same dynamic class loader that is produced by ->TestRecord
03:58	cfleming	rritoch: Right, I'm debugging this now. NewExpr always uses maybeClass, which is basically Class.forName()
03:59	cfleming	rritoch: However when compiling a deftype form, it always calls LOADER.deref() which gives a DCL.
04:02	cfleming	rritoch: What I don't understand now is how (TestRecord.) works in a normal non-AOT REPL.
04:03	dysfun	that clojure bug pretty much explains it
04:05	cfleming	Not really, it just says "because classloaders"
04:05	cfleming	It gets weirder.
04:07	cfleming	If I start a non-AOT'ed REPL, and instead of using nREPL's load-file I do a (require 'classloader.core) from the REPL, both records have their class in the AppClassLoader
04:09	rritoch	Anyhow, I need to give up for now... I tried (.importClass ns 'TestRecord (class (TestRecord. nil))) which I really thought would lead to ->TestRecord using the app class loader, but it didn't
04:10	cfleming	Hmm
04:10	cfleming	rritoch: Anyway, thanks for looking at it
04:10	cfleming	I need to give up for the moment now too.
04:10	rritoch	It seems that when it comes to classloaders, clojure will do the exact opposite of what you want it to do, every time.
04:10	cfleming	rritoch: Certainly it's not very predictable.
04:11	rritoch	cfleming: If your using gen-classes, I've been able to deal with some of this classloader issues by extending classes with static initializers
04:12	cfleming	rritoch: Yeah, this is actually for a colleague but I'm going to have similar problems myself soon, so I'd like to understand it.
04:12	rritoch	I took on this issue because I'm trying to learn all of in's and outs of clojure classloading because it frequently causes issues, but I still have a ways to go
04:12	cfleming	rritoch: It seems to be a bit of a mess.
04:14	dysfun	it's largely java's fault tbh
04:15	cfleming	dysfun: Mmmmh, I thought so, but this idiosyncratic choice of which loader to use is all Clojure
04:15	dysfun	nod
04:15	dysfun	i can understand why it's the way it is, but it's not helpful
04:40	rritoch	dysfun: I believe I found the bug
04:40	rritoch	dysfun: (println (clojure.lang.Namespace/areDifferentInstancesOfSameClassName (class (->TestRecord nil)) (class (TestRecord. nil)))) is returning false
04:40	rritoch	Or I should say "a bug"
04:41	rritoch	the areDifferentInstancesOfSameClassName should be validating that both classes are using the same classloader instead of just checking =
04:45	dysfun	rritoch: heh, nice find
04:46	rritoch	dysfun: I am not sure though, this is acting wierd still
04:46	dysfun	welcome to the jvm :)
04:47	rritoch	Wow, crazyland
04:48	rritoch	Let me see if I can paste this someplace...
04:48	dysfun	i've heard it called worse :)
04:48	dysfun	http://refheap.com/
04:48	clgv	that predicate seems about right
04:50	clgv	did you reevaluate the definition of TestRecord?
04:51	rritoch	https://www.refheap.com/94397
04:52	rritoch	Now that is crazyness if I ever saw it
04:53	rritoch	Inside the let it reports they are different, outside let context they're reported as the same.
04:54	rritoch	I'm supposed to be working right now, but I don't deal well with not knowing the solution to a problem
04:55	clgv	rritoch: better restart your repl. they are the same for both evaluation in a fresh repl overhere
04:56	clgv	rritoch: is it possible that there are stale class files in your project?
04:56	rritoch	clgv: I'm not running from repl, I'm running via lein compile (:aot :all)
04:56	rritoch	From repl all of this crazyness goes away
04:57	rritoch	cflemming's code if loaded via require :reload-all produces the same classloaders, it is only during lein compile that they deviate, at least in my tests.
04:58	dysfun	this has gotten quite interesting all of a sudden
04:58	rritoch	It could be a version issue though, I'm using version 1.5.1 for this test
04:58	rritoch	I didn't try a newer version of clojure
04:59	rritoch	I get the same offending results with version 1.6.0
05:00	rritoch	I really have to stash this issue away for later and get to work, but cflemming has uncovered something very odd about the classloading within lein compile
05:01	clgv	rritoch: but run the compiled code via "lein run" by adding a -main and :gen-class to the namespace - then you get "same" both times.
05:01	clgv	so is this really relevant for any practical purpose?
05:02	clgv	rritoch: I just added an additional -main function and kept the other code as is
05:04	rritoch	clgv: I'm not exactly sure when this would be relevant, I rarely use top-level "let" statements in code
05:05	clgv	rritoch: it seems to be compile time only. when the compiled code is run and the side effects from loading the class are triggered both report "same"
05:06	rritoch	clgv: Yes, and I noticed the dynamicclassloader dissappears at runtime, both use the classloader
05:06	rritoch	err, the app classloader
05:08	llasram	AOT really doesn't seem to be a feature the clojure/core people use much
05:13	rritoch	Well, I found one more thing, when running lein compile, the non-let version is reporting same for both, and they're both using the same dynamic classloader that is reported in let for ->TestRecord
05:14	rritoch	So the only time the app class loader is being used at compile time is when (TestRecord. nil) syntax is used within a let statement.
05:16	cfleming	clgv: it's relevant because the multimethod dispatch doesn't work properly, see the refheap
05:17	cfleming	print-method is called or not depending on how the record class is instantiated
05:17	cfleming	llasram: They AOT compile datomic
05:17	rritoch	cflemming: Do you really need to be using a top-level let statement in your code?
05:18	rritoch	cflemming: The crazyness seems to evaporate if you aren't in a let statement.
05:18	cfleming	rritoch: This is just a repro case, it's not the real code
05:19	cfleming	rritoch: This was giving problems at the REPL, and seems to be related to http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-371
05:19	rritoch	cfleming: I'm aware of that, but this bug seems to only presents itself within a let statement
05:19	cfleming	rritoch: Mostly I'd just like to understand how the classloading actually works.
05:20	rritoch	cfleming: Same here, I honestly have no idea how the let form changes things, but it narrows the problem down a bit
05:22	rritoch	cfleming: Did you see the pastebin I posted?
05:22	cfleming	rritoch: Yes, I'm looking at it now
05:22	rritoch	err, refheap
05:23	rritoch	It is simply another perspective on the same issue, but the let binding seems to be the basis for the bug
05:24	cfleming	So that different instances check looks legit to me
05:24	cfleming	I think the difference in the output is because you're getting the classes looked up in different classloaders
05:25	clgv	cfleming: multimethod dispatch in AOTed namespace does not work?
05:25	rritoch	cfleming: Yeah, I was wrong about that function having a bug
05:25	SagiCZ1	clgv: not that i am an expert or anything but it seemed to work in my case
05:26	cfleming	clgv: Take a look at https://www.refheap.com/94392
05:26	cfleming	You can see there that the print-method method is invoked, or not, depending on how the record class is instantiated.
05:27	cfleming	Presumably because the classes are different due to different classloaders being used, and the multimethod is dispatched on the Class
05:28	cfleming	instance? would also fail
05:28	clgv	cfleming: yes I had that running
05:29	llasram	cfleming: Oh yeah. Good point :-)
05:29	llasram	(re: datomic; catching up)
05:31	clgv	cfleming: but the multimethod dispatch works in a -main function with the compiled class files in a uberjar
05:31	cfleming	clgv: So multimethod dispatch works fine, it's the class lookup that's a little unpredictable
05:32	cfleming	clgv: interesting.
05:33	cfleming	clgv: My colleague was having problems in a REPL because of this. I assume (but I'm not sure) that he'd loaded the AOT code and was then trying to redefine a class.
05:33	cfleming	Which looks sort of like CLJ-371 but not quite.
05:38	simao	hey any reason why `lein run` would never stop? I am just outputting some strings but lein run gets stuck doing nothing
05:38	llasram	simao: "Never stop" meaning "not exit once the entry-point function returns"?
05:39	simao	yeah, when -main returns
05:39	llasram	simao: Probably the agent thread pool, which uses non-daemon threads. Try adding a call to `shutdown-agents` right before returning from your `-main`
05:41	simao	llasram: nothing changes, still hung
05:42	llasram	simao: Well, are you perhaps starting threads some other way?
05:42	simao	llasram: no, it's very simple what I am doing.. maybe some import is starting some thread but that would be weird
05:42	llasram	simao: code?
05:43	simao	llasram: I just found it. some call to a library was opening a tcp connection and probably would use some threads
05:43	simao	thanks!
05:43	llasram	well, cool
05:44	llasram	Hope that actually helps then :-)
05:47	llasram	cfleming: I think it's the same problem, just in a more complicated way, combined with how Clojure evaluates code form-by-form
05:48	llasram	cfleming: I'm failing to find why, but there's especially tricky interactions which lead to why the `deftype` and `defrecord` macros produce forms which wrap their contents in a top-level `let` instead of `do`
05:48	llasram	Since the compiler special-cases a top-level `do` to evaluate each sub-form as independently at the top level
05:53	dysfun	ohh, that's how it does it
06:01	Empperi	ok, this is wierd
06:01	Empperi	I set :test-paths ["test/clj"] in my project.clj but leiningen doesn't seem to be compiling those into classpath so that those tests could be executed
06:01	Empperi	what am I missing?
06:03	mavbozo	any good explanation about AOT in the web?
06:10	llasram	mavbozo: Sure. github.com/clojure/clojure/.../Compiler.java ;-)
06:10	llasram	mavbozo: (by which I mean: "unfortunately not")
06:10	clgv	mavbozo: depends on your question
06:11	llasram	Empperi: Not sure what you mean by "compiling those into classpath"...
06:12	llasram	Empperi: Does the directory hierarchy underneath your test path(s) still reflect the Clojure namespace hierarchy and match the `ns` forms in your test files?
06:13	mavbozo	clgv: like why we should AOT compile some namespace and not the other, or why there are some libraries that come AOT compiled
06:14	llasram	mavbozo: Clojure AOT is for applications. Libraries should never be AOT-compiled
06:15	llasram	mavbozo: You can get a startup-time speed up with AOT, but most people to use AOT because they think they need executable uberjars, which requires an AOT class
06:15	llasram	But you really don't :-)
06:15	Empperi	llasram: yes
06:15	llasram	s,people to,people seem to,
06:16	Empperi	but strangely enough, if I just removed :test-paths declaration it works o_O
06:16	dysfun	"but you really don't" ?
06:16	Empperi	oh well
06:16	Empperi	it works -> carry on
06:16	llasram	Empperi: noooo
06:16	mavbozo	llasram: but, there is this kind of suggestion https://github.com/yogthos/Selmer/pull/67
06:17	mavbozo	to AOT compile selmer.node
06:17	llasram	That actually doesn't make sense. Could you refheap your project file, the result of the shell command `find test/`, and the path+`head` of one of your test files?
06:17	clgv	dysfun: yes, you can use the pattern of lein-otf to have a fake main class that is AOTed and loads your real main dynamically. so you actual code does not need to be AOT compiled
06:18	TEttinger	is lein-otf even compatible with recent lein?
06:18	mavbozo	llasram: and actually namespace selmer.node in selmer is aot compiled https://github.com/yogthos/Selmer/blob/master/project.clj
06:18	llasram	mavbozo: They are wrong and about to break their users when they release this :-)
06:19	mavbozo	llasram: it's already released yesterday i think in version 0.7
06:19	llasram	(I think -- yogthos should know better)
06:19	llasram	Yeah -- just one sec while I verify something
06:19	dysfun	clgv: ah i see. i tend to just do a very quick wrapper around another namespace
06:19	dysfun	this will save some typing
06:21	llasram	mavbozo: Ok, nm. Last time I checked doing an AOT meant transitively compiling clojure.core, but that seems not to be happening here
06:22	llasram	mavbozo: BUT
06:22	llasram	mavbozo: IMHO they did the wrong fix
06:23	llasram	Actually, I'm going to pause blathering as I don't actually understand what the problem was
06:24	llasram	They require selmer.node in selmer.parse, which should define the relevant types. AOT should be completely irrelevant
06:26	mavbozo	llasram: i'll ask yogthos when he's here. including why there is gen-class in that selmer.node
06:26	clgv	dysfun: well, I dont mean to say you should use lein-otf - it broke with recent leiningen. but you can use the same pattern
06:27	mavbozo	why aot'ed libraries might break user's applications?
06:28	llasram	mavbozo: Because of the transitive compilation issue. In the past there have been AOT libraries which unintentionally transitively compiled -> included other libraries
06:29	llasram	The Clojure class loading strategy prefers available AOT versions of things. This caused incomprehensible behavior like getting a version of library nothing seemed to include
06:29	llasram	mavbozo: They're avoiding that here, although I still think it shouldn't be necessary
06:29	llasram	It might be linked to how they're reaching into the protocol implementation to use the protocol backing JVM interface.
06:31	mavbozo	llasram: oh, a library jar which includes other libraries jar
06:31	llasram	Exactly
06:34	mavbozo	thx llasram
06:34	mavbozo	(inc llasram)
06:34	lazybot	⇒ 41
06:36	mavbozo	the pain of making and using libraries reminds me of old thread https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure/WuS31RSiz_A
06:59	justin_smith	szymanowski: ##(filter (set '(a b c)) '(a b d c e b a)) something like this?
06:59	lazybot	⇒ (a b c b a)
07:06	Fender	today a performance question: I have a vector and a function and I count how often this function is truthy on each element in the vec
07:07	Fender	I actually traverse the (range (count values)) via reduce where values is the vector
07:07	Fender	and inc an Integer if (function (get values i)) is truthy
07:08	Fender	however, now I want to do this for two integers because I got two functions
07:08	Fender	meaning I could (reduce some-counting-function [0 0] (range values))
07:08	Fender	(range (count values)) that is
07:09	Fender	of course, I wouldnt use a persistent vector because that's expensive, instead I tried an int-array
07:09	Fender	but thats twice as expensive as counting just one function
07:10	Fender	the functions btw are just keywords on a record, so I suppose they're cheap
07:10	Fender	is there a faster way to count if <n> functions hold over the same vector?
07:11	Fender	that is: is there a fast way to count how often <n> functions hold in one single vector?
07:12	Fender	like transient vectors (didnt try), AtomicInteger, int-array (same perf as AtomicIntegers), ...=
07:12	clgv	Fender: as long as you use (range) the other performance optimizations do not make that much sense
07:12	Fender	I read a lot that seq on the vector wouldnt be faster
07:12	Fender	you mean I should loop
07:12	Fender	of course
07:13	Fender	thanks already, sometimes you optimize the wrong thing
07:13	clgv	Fender: if you want fast arithmetic (e.g. for counting) use loop-recur and make sure there is no boxing
07:13	Fender	you're completely right, I now see how stupid that was^^
07:14	noncom\|2	how do i get http://mvnrepository.com/artifact/org.apache.commons/commons-io/1.3.2 with deps in project.clj ?
07:15	noncom\|2	i tried [org.apache.commons/commons.io "1.3.2"] but it does not work
07:15	ucb	shouldn't it be commons-io though?
07:16	hyPiRion	yeah, it's moved
07:16	clgv	noncom\|2: thats probably because mvnrepository is not mavencentral and thus not in the list of your repositories
07:16	hyPiRion	use [commons-io/commons-io "2.4"]
07:16	noncom\|2	oh..
07:16	noncom\|2	it is even 2.4 now...
07:17	noncom\|2	yeah, this one works
07:17	noncom\|2	thanks
07:22	Fender	is there a neat way to make sure there is no autoboxing? cantor is not supported anymore and set-warning on reflection doesnt tell me anything...
07:25	justin_smith	Fender: 1.7.x (still in alpha) has warning on boxing if you turn on unchecked-math
07:26	justin_smith	Fender: there is also the primitive-math lib https://github.com/ztellman/primitive-math
07:27	Fender	ok, thanks, I will use the latter
07:27	clgv	Fender: warn on reflection should tell you at least for the loop parameters
07:27	justin_smith	clgv: it will tell you if it reflects on their class, but not if they get boxed
07:28	justin_smith	it will happily let an object be java.lang.Long
07:28	Fender	hmm, sometimes during compilation I remember I read some autoboxing warning
07:29	Fender	but it was from leiningen
07:29	justin_smith	Fender: leiningen is just running the compile command, I am sure it's the compiler giving the actual warnings
07:30	clgv	justin_smith: it'll tell you the loop params initialized with primitive get boxed before passed to recur
07:30	justin_smith	clgv: oh, cool
07:31	clgv	1.7 has a new option for unchecked-math where you can enable warnings
07:33	Fender	so the absence of a compiler warning for the loop params in 1.6 implies the absence of autoboxing
07:33	justin_smith	Fender: as long as you hinted the arg as a primitive
07:34	justin_smith	if you didn't hint it as a primitive, you'll get no warning
07:34	clgv	Fender: if the arg is initialized with a primitive, yes
07:35	clgv	hints will lead to a compile error if I remember correctly
07:35	clgv	Fender: e.g. (loop [i 0 ...] ...) or (loop [i (long x) ...] ...)
07:35	Fender	ok, I coerce them as in http://clojure.org/java_interop#Java Interop-Type Hints
07:36	Fender	and there is no warning
07:36	Fender	but I only inc them, so maybe it sticks to the type in this case
07:38	Fender	ok, inc doesnt seem to be type-true
07:38	Fender	but inc' is
07:38	Fender	so I get a compiler warning if I use inc' but not if I use inc
07:38	jmglov	Hi all! Is anyone awake who knows a bit about Ring?
07:40	kungi	jmglov: what is your question?
07:41	jmglov	I would like to deploy a Ring app (made with lein uberwar) to Tomcat, but using the WebSocketServlet API, not the HttpServlet one.
07:41	jmglov	As far as I can tell, Ring can't currently do that.
07:41	jmglov	Am I correct in this?
07:42	kungi	jmglov: my ring expertice is not good enough to answer that question.
07:42	justin_smith	jmglov: I suspect it will be easier to make a standalone uberwar, using httpkit or aleph
07:43	justin_smith	jmglov: how badly do you really need to be using tomcat?
07:43	jmglov	Pretty badly, I think.
07:43	jmglov	Otherwise, I'd just use http-kit and be done with it. :)
07:44	justin_smith	google immediately finds you asking questions about this on stackoverflow
07:44	justin_smith	lol
07:44	jmglov	I need to deploy to AWS Elastic Beanstalk.
07:44	jmglov	justin_smith: Yup.
07:45	clgv	,(binding [warn-on-reflection true] (eval '(fn [n, x] (loop [i 0, s 0] (if (< i n) (recur (inc i) (+ s x)) s)))))
07:45	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.SecurityException: denied, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
07:45	jmglov	I figured #clojure might be able to bring more expertise to bear quickly.
07:45	clgv	Fender: try that one on your repl ^^
07:45	jmglov	I see now that Elastic Beanstalk can do Docker, so perhaps http-kit + Docker would be an option.
07:47	justin_smith	jmglov: that's a nice new option. I have had success with just using plain ec2 instances as well for what it's worth.
07:47	justin_smith	just scp an uberjar and fire it up.
07:48	jmglov	justin_smith: I have done the same with other Clojure services on EC2, but Elastic Beanstalk gives me ELB and Auto Scaling as well, which saves quite a bit of work.
07:49	jmglov	Otherwise, I'd need some tool to deploy new versions to all running instances, update my AMI, etc.
07:49	jmglov	So it's quite a lot of tooling that I'd potentially have to write.
07:49	justin_smith	right, clearly you are hitting scale issues I have not seen
07:50	justin_smith	I never had scaling issues that couldn't be fixed with nginx reverse proxy and a varnish layer on a single instance
07:50	jmglov	Yeah, I have to be available and scalable, so I have some constraints that are best left to Amazon to sort out. :)
08:06	TimMc	jmglov: Embedded Jetty doesn't allow you to use websockets? I've never used them myself.)
08:06	justin_smith	TimMc: embedded Jetty doesn't work on elastic beanstalk
08:06	justin_smith	unless maybe with that docker option he mentions
08:07	TimMc	Another thing I know nothing about. :-)
08:07	jmglov	TimMc: I believe that embedded Jetty does handle websockets, though almost no-one seems to be doing that.
08:07	jmglov	But as Justin says, that doesn't really scratch my itch.
08:08	jmglov	http-kit on Docker looks like the best way forward, honestly.
08:08	justin_smith	TimMc: the idea with elasticbeanstalk is that the instances are totally generic, with nearly no setup, which allows fast and easy allocation / deallocation of instances as needed
08:08	TimMc	Ah, OK.
08:08	jmglov	But I think I'll take a crack at writing a Ring adapter for WebSocketServlet.
08:09	justin_smith	godspeed, that sounds very useful
08:09	jmglov	The Docker stuff is a lot more complicated than a simple "lein beanstalk deploy production". :)
08:09	jmglov	I don't think the adapter would really be that complicated. ring.util.servlet is not much code at all.
08:10	jmglov	Anyway, I'll report back once I've done it or died trying. ;)
08:10	TimMc	There's also that async ring thingum...
08:10	justin_smith	jmglov: I'll take your word for it. The lower I get in the stack, the more likely a small miscalculation totally ruins things, so I am often reluctant to make something like that.
08:11	atankanow	whomai
08:11	TimMc	https://github.com/dgrnbrg/spiral
08:11	justin_smith	haha, you almost got an easteregg
08:11	justin_smith	whoami
08:11	lazybot	justin_smith
08:11	atankanow	haha
08:11	atankanow	just making sure circe set my nick correctly
08:11	justin_smith	pwd
08:11	lazybot	#clojure
08:11	justin_smith	ls
08:11	lazybot	bin home lib64 lost+found media opt proc root sbin tmp usr var
08:11	TimMc	mutt
08:11	lazybot	Woof!
08:11	atankanow	rm -rf /
08:12	hellofunk	In Om I am trying to udpate parent local state from child. Code snippet is last message in this thread, if anyone spots the problem: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojurescript/22Oh2BkGlyQ%5B1-25-false%5D
08:12	atankanow	no wait, sudo !!
08:13	clgv	atankanow: make sure you got the correct window ;)
08:16	atankanow	clgv: never! i type indiscriminately into any application with text input
08:17	jmglov	justin_smith: You're certainly right, but I can't let fear stop me. :)
08:18	jmglov	Bugs happen and get fixed, no matter where in the stack I am.
09:00	charliekilo	stupid question: am I missing anything about vars pointing to record? Using Prismatic Schema this works (schema/check MySchema {:foo "bar"}), while (schema/check #'MySchema {:foo "bar"}) does not.
09:00	Bronsa	,(defrecord Foo [])
09:00	clojurebot	sandbox.Foo
09:00	Bronsa	,Foo
09:00	clojurebot	sandbox.Foo
09:00	Bronsa	,#'Foo
09:00	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Expecting var, but Foo is mapped to class sandbox.Foo, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
09:00	Bronsa	,(class Foo)
09:00	clojurebot	java.lang.Class
09:00	Bronsa	charliekilo: records are classes, not vars
09:01	justin_smith	and even if you are talking about a var ##(= #'+ +)
09:01	lazybot	⇒ false
09:02	justin_smith	Guest35729 is spamming
09:02	charliekilo	Bronsa: but wouldn't (def MySchema (schema/either ...)) create a var?
09:02	justin_smith	charliekilo: see my point
09:03	justin_smith	on the other hand ##(= + @#'+) does work
09:03	lazybot	⇒ true
09:03	justin_smith	but it's also silly :)
09:05	charliekilo	so I need to basically resolve the class then and not the var
09:05	justin_smith	well, schemas are by convention in CamelCase but are not classes, they are vars holding clojure data structures
09:06	justin_smith	unless you are talking about something actually made with defrecord or such
09:06	jonathanj	hrm, is anyone familiar with Liberator?
09:07	ordnungswidrig	jonasen: I am
09:07	jonathanj	how do i dynamically return the Content-Type for :handle-ok ?
09:07	charliekilo	justin_smith you sure, because then I call (class MySchema) it returns schema.core.Either (in my case)
09:07	jonathanj	(like, i've pulled some stuff out of a database and now i know the content type is X)
09:07	charliekilo	which is a class
09:08	ordnungswidrig	liberator figures this out for you based on what the client accepts ("Accept" header) and what the resource provides (:available-media-types)
09:08	justin_smith	charliekilo: how do you define the schema?
09:08	ordnungswidrig	if you want to do that dynamicaly, then specify a function for :available-media-types which returns the type in a vector.
09:09	charliekilo	justin_smith (def MySchema (schema/either ...))
09:09	justin_smith	aha, yeah. in that case MySchema is a var, but the value it points at is an instance of schema.core.Either
09:09	justin_smith	but MySchema is not a class
09:10	justin_smith	so what I was saying still holds. It's in CamelCase but is not in fact a class.
09:14	jonathanj	ordnungswidrig: hrm, is there some handler that is called as a kind of "setup" handler?
09:14	jonathanj	ordnungswidrig: the problem i have now is that my exists? handler places the necessary information into the context but available-media-types runs before exists?
09:15	justin_smith	charliekilo: schema/either returns an instance of a record (schema.core.Either), and records are just specialized maps
09:15	ordnungswidrig	jonasen: well, look it up in :available-media-types and put it into the context there. you can then use that value in :exists?
09:16	jonathanj	ordnungswidrig: i can't mutate context, can i?
09:16	jonathanj	usually i return the map to merge with context from a handler, but in this case i have to also return the vec of media types
09:17	ordnungswidrig	jonasen: let me check
09:17	justin_smith	charliekilo: one thing that can lead to confusion is that #(= (#'+ 1 1) (+ 1 1)) vars are callable, and implicitly deref when called. But they are not generally substitutable with the thing they resolve to.
09:17	justin_smith	oops ##(= (+ 1 1) (#'+ 1 1))
09:17	lazybot	⇒ true
09:18	justin_smith	also, the CamelCase convention for schema vars is misleading, because usually something in CamelCase in clojure should be a class, not a var
09:19	ordnungswidrig	jonasen: you're right. In this case you would need to specify :media-type-available? and call to `(negotiate-media-type ctx)` yourself. But I guess it's simpler to lookup the resource in `service-available?` which has the nice side effect to produce a good status code in case your db fails :-)
09:19	hellofunk	if you have a destructred arg in a fn and you call that function with nil as the arg rather than something that can be destructured, it this acceptable and you just get nil for your destructured args?
09:20	justin_smith	hellofunk: that is the only behavior you can expect
09:20	hellofunk	justin_smith as opposed to say errors, this would be considered fine?
09:20	justin_smith	,((fn [{a :a}] a) nil)
09:20	ordnungswidrig	jonasen: would you mind to file an issue to liberator on that? I find it would be a good extension to be able to "update the context" from :available-media-types.
09:20	clojurebot	nil
09:21	justin_smith	hellofunk: destructuring will always nil rather than error unless the syntax is invalid
09:21	charliekilo	justin_smith I followed Prismatic's naming convention (see their README) ... think Prismatic uses CamelCase to highlight its a schema
09:22	justin_smith	charliekilo: right. that's why I explicitly blame the naming convention and not you.
09:22	justin_smith	but it's bound to lead to confusion in forums like IRC where we see CamelCase and assume a class :)
09:23	charliekilo	justin_smith right, I should have been more explicit by highlighting the usage of the Prismatic naming convention
09:23	justin_smith	well, the usage of the word "record" in your question may have led things astray as well
09:24	justin_smith	you asked about a var pointing to a record, when I think you really meant a var pointing to an instance of a record
09:24	jonathanj	ordnungswidrig: thank you for your help, i'll file a bug when i get the chance
09:25	justin_smith	but I think we have it all cleared up at this point what was really going on :)
09:25	ordnungswidrig	jonasen: you're welcome
09:37	charliekilo	justin_smith got it ... thanks
09:43	atankanow	seq is a nice idiomatic way to process possibly empty element collections a la #(if-let [xs (seq %)] (process-collection xs) (process nil))
09:43	borkdude	what's wrong with this Datalog query? https://www.refheap.com/94400
09:43	atankanow	is there a nice way to also handle non-Iterables here ... that is send non-Iterables to the else
09:43	borkdude	the one on line 5
09:43	justin_smith	atankanow: in 1.6 you can also use not-empty, basically the same thing but I think it conveys the intention very nicely, and it keeps the collection type
09:44	justin_smith	,(map (juxt seq not-empty) [[] [1 2] () '(1 2)])
09:44	clojurebot	([nil nil] [(1 2) [1 2]] [nil nil] [(1 2) (1 2)])
09:44	atankanow	thanks justin_smith
09:44	jonathanj	is there a function such that (f "abc") returns ["abc"]?
09:45	atankanow	but what if one of the elements is say a boolean
09:45	borkdude	jonathanj vector
09:45	justin_smith	,(vector "abc")
09:45	clojurebot	["abc"]
09:45	jonathanj	borkdude: oh, i was trying "vec"
09:45	jonathanj	thanks
09:45	justin_smith	,(not-empty false)
09:45	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Boolean>
09:45	justin_smith	,(seq false)
09:45	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Boolean>
09:45	atankanow	basically i want non-collections to be treated as such without explicitly checking =)
09:46	justin_smith	atankanow: you need (and (coll? x) ...)
09:46	justin_smith	or something using a check for coll?
09:46	atankanow	that's what i thought justin_smith ... i just wasn't sure if i was missing a nice clever single fn solution
09:46	borkdude	gotcha: datomic inputs must start with a ?
09:47	justin_smith	but any place where you are maybe getting a single item or maybe a collection indicates to me you are interacting with a poorly designed api
09:47	atankanow	agreed
09:47	justin_smith	or at least a crippled one - what if you wanted a collection as your single item?
10:40	EvanR	,(quote <)
10:40	clojurebot	<
10:40	EvanR	,(quote :)
10:40	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: :>
10:40	EvanR	:(
10:40	EvanR	,(quote ::)
10:40	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: ::>
10:41	EvanR	,(symbol ":")
10:41	clojurebot	:
10:42	mikerod	EvanR: the symbol constructor allows a lot of symbols to be created that aren't readable
10:43	EvanR	is this bad
10:43	mikerod	,(symbol " h ")
10:43	clojurebot	h
10:43	mikerod	I think in order to make the symbol construction performant, it just allows anything in a string
10:43	mikerod	(this is mostly a guess of mine)
10:43	EvanR	are unreadable symbols bad, like (symbol "<:")
10:44	mikerod	,<:
10:44	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: <:>
10:44	mikerod	EvanR: I don't know. I guess it depends on what you intend to do with them.
10:44	mikerod	They are bad if you intend for them to be read. :)
10:44	EvanR	hmm, i was using them abstractly. i keep forgetting symbols are really about the runtime environment
10:45	mikerod	EvanR: Yeah, I find it awkward to use them for anything other then their intended runtime semantics.
10:45	mikerod	Since they have meaning already tied to them there. I'd suppose it should be considered bad practice to use them for other
10:45	mikerod	things.
10:47	mikerod	Keywords are much better suited for representing something as itself with no other meanings tied to runtime behavior.
10:48	EvanR	right keywords are good.. for words
10:48	EvanR	but prefixing other symbols with : is awkward
10:49	EvanR	:<:
10:49	EvanR	:?e
10:49	justin_smith	you can always use get, and a string
10:50	EvanR	get and a string?
10:50	justin_smith	(get {"a string" 1} "a string")
10:50	ajmccluskey	Is it possible to extend a protocol in the same sense as extending a Java interface? From what I can see it isn't, but it seems like it makes sense to express hierarchies of behaviours.
10:51	ajmccluskey	e.g. A "Graph" protocol expects implementers to be able to add-node, add-edge, etc.
10:51	justin_smith	EvanR: many people are over eager to take incoming data (for example in an http request, or sql results, or json) into symbols or keywords, where really things are simpler if they remain strings
10:52	ajmccluskey	A "WeightedGraph" protocol might add the ability to add-weighted-edge, but a WeightedGraph should be able to do all the things a "Graph" can do as well
10:52	EvanR	well this isnt incoming data its symbols in a dsl
10:52	EvanR	like datomic usage of '?e
10:52	justin_smith	ajmccluskey: you can implement a Weighted protocol, and then document that a client should implement both Graph and Weighted. This is the general approach in clojure.core
10:53	justin_smith	EvanR: in that case, use symbols or keywords that aren't insane :)
10:53	justin_smith	if it isn't client provided, that's in your power
10:53	EvanR	thats what im ascertaining, colon is an insane symbol in clojure
10:53	EvanR	<: is standard notation for subtype
10:54	justin_smith	EvanR: tailing colon is OK
10:54	justin_smith	,'<:
10:54	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: <:>
10:54	EvanR	nope
10:54	justin_smith	err, not
10:54	justin_smith	sorry
10:54	justin_smith	my bad
10:54	ajmccluskey	justin_smith: Right. That's what I was seeing, hence I assumed it wasn't possible. Feels like it would be better to capture this in code rather than comments.
10:54	justin_smith	ajmccluskey: clojure is opinionated against inheritence, this is reflected many places in the design
10:56	ajmccluskey	justin_smith: I knew it was opinionated against inheritance of implementations, but I guess I see legitimate reasons for inheritance of interface.
10:57	EvanR	prerequisite interfaces for an interface would be good
10:57	EvanR	protocols on a protocol
10:58	justin_smith	ajmccluskey: there is no manner of enforcing that an interface is fully implemented. Putting it all in one interface vs. mixing multiple interfaces gains you very little, because nothing prevents incomplete implementation.
10:59	justin_smith	EvanR: same goes for that argument. Since I can't even enforce that you implement all the methods in one interface, how does mixing multiple interfaces into one give me any net benefit?
10:59	ajmccluskey	justin_smith: I assumed it would be a compilation error to only partially implement a protocol/interface
10:59	EvanR	i wasnt mixing, but also, you can "just not implement" part of an interface?
11:00	justin_smith	not at all
11:00	justin_smith	EvanR: nothing makes you implement a full interface.
11:00	EvanR	in any case, why make an assumption that someone might do that
11:00	justin_smith	EvanR: it's common.
11:00	EvanR	even if they implement all the methods, you also have no guarantee they did it right
11:00	EvanR	doesnt seem to be "our" problem as the protocol user
11:01	justin_smith	sure, but what I am saying is that interface inheritence gains you complexity, but doesn't actually help you simplify anything. It doesn't do anything useful.
11:02	justin_smith	whether you are implementing one interface, or many, you actually have to go and look at the interface(s) and figure out what you need to implement.
11:02	justin_smith	the compiler isn't enforcing any of it
11:02	ajmccluskey	In the context where full implementation of protocols/interfaces isn't required it doesn't do anything useful. I'd be interested to find out why the decision was made to not enforce full implementations.
11:03	ajmccluskey	I guess the one gain I can think of in this context is that it's expressed semantically as code rather than in a comment, which maybe makes it stand out more. There's also the possibility for adding tooling/checking around it.
11:03	EvanR	what i was thinking of was, you want to implement an independent protocol B for class X, class Y, and for anything implementing protocol A (ignoring for the moment what happens if X or Y implements A)
11:04	justin_smith	ajmccluskey: because needing full implementations creates a lazy path leading to inheritance. And lazy partial implementation is much easier to fix than lazy / poorly thought out inheritence trees.
11:04	justin_smith	laziness as in "what does a programmer in a hurry / with other priorities end up implementing"
11:05	EvanR	its common in a dynamic system to treat it as if people are following some sanity rules, if they dont, its their problem
11:05	EvanR	two different subjects it seems
11:06	EvanR	mushing several independent interfaces into one seems bad
11:07	justin_smith	implementing a protocol based on another protocol leads to the ruby problem "where the hell is the code that generates this behavior exactly?"
11:08	EvanR	shouldnt the system tell you which implementation is being used for a given class and protocol pair
11:08	ajmccluskey	justin_smith: good points
11:08	EvanR	in file foo on line bar
11:08	EvanR	also ruby does not have anything close to anything we are talking about
11:08	ajmccluskey	EvanR: interesting point about dynamic systems giving people more freedom. Agree.
11:09	EvanR	ajmccluskey: the only way i can do anything in super dynamic language x is to do tons of static checks in my head, i think its common for library designers to treat users as following some unseen protocol
11:10	EvanR	which they can use to write their code correct against some standard
11:10	justin_smith	EvanR: I am talking about the more general design problem of implementation being spread in unintuitive ways. Which ruby code in my experience often has in spades, and meta-protocols would lead to similar problems.
11:11	justin_smith	EvanR: this is why I like prismatic/schema now that I have started using it
11:11	justin_smith	EvanR: even if I never run the schema checks, just having the annotations on my functions is great
11:12	EvanR	yes so maybe the gripe is about using implementation somewhere for something without some visible code to tell you whats going on
11:12	EvanR	or how / why its even happening in this context
11:13	Bronsa	justin_smith: not being able to extend a protocol to a protocol leads to this https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/src/cljs/cljs/core.cljs#L8164-L8260
11:13	justin_smith	Right. And inheritence, and nesting of protocols on protocols (effectively inheritence) are big causes of that. One of my favorite things about clojure is how easy it usually is to intuit where the behavior I am observing is likely implemented.
11:14	EvanR	but the using a protocol to implement a protocol is in my mind equivalent to using a function to implement another function
11:14	Bronsa	and juuio is the daily spammer.
11:14	EvanR	"function inheritance" is usually not considered bad
11:15	justin_smith	EvanR: than do what you would do with a function, and wrap one in calls to the other. Protocols are allowed to call methods on other protocols.
11:15	EvanR	you follow the (visible) code to find out why something is working
11:15	EvanR	justin_smith: thats what im talking about
11:16	justin_smith	EvanR: I thought you were talking about extending Protocols onto other Protocols
11:16	EvanR	protocol P implementation X using the method from P2 implemented on X
11:16	EvanR	P implementation Y wouldnt
11:17	EvanR	and from there you could make it polymorphic, instead of just X, any x that has P2
11:17	EvanR	or copy the code, which is what ive been doing in this case
11:17	EvanR	since the code is identical
11:19	justin_smith	Bronsa: yeah, that is the downside, I admit
11:19	justin_smith	Bronsa: what do you think the right way to do it would be?
11:20	EvanR	just looked at that link
11:22	EvanR	for whatever common protocol (most of) those interfaces use to implement IPrintWithWriter, call it P, implement IPrintWithWriter for P
11:23	Bronsa	justin_smith: I don't know of a good way to avoid that that doesn't include some use of inheritance
11:23	EvanR	but without enforcement, you will have a confusing rule to disambiguate the case of overlapping implementations
11:23	EvanR	what im saying isnt inheritance
11:25	Bronsa	justin_smith: note that since in clojure those protocols are actually interfaces, we can extend a protocol to them -- with the caveat that in the case of overlapping implementations one at random will be selected
11:25	EvanR	:(
11:26	EvanR	so dont overlap
11:27	justin_smith	EvanR: given that this is the jvm, how would you extend an interface onto another interface without inheritance?
11:27	Bronsa	justin_smith: but since most of the clojure interfaces form a hierarchy, there's rarely this issue. extending IPersistentMap will win over IPersistentCollection and Seqable etc
11:28	justin_smith	Bronsa: is there a trick for that? because we were talking about this recently and I tried extending a protocol onto another protocol and it just didn't work, maybe I was doing it wrong
11:28	EvanR	justin_smith: well not being able to implement it for some technical reason is a different story from its a bad idea
11:28	justin_smith	Bronsa: a trick for extending protocols to protocols that is
11:29	Bronsa	justin_smith: in clojure?
11:29	justin_smith	EvanR: yeah, I think I had a "clojure stays close to the impl" premise that we weren't sharing
11:29	justin_smith	Bronsa: yeah
11:29	Bronsa	justin_smith: in clojure you can use the underlying interface of a protocol
11:29	Bronsa	justin_smith: but this will only work for types that implement that protocol inline
11:29	justin_smith	ahh, so not via extend-protocol
11:29	justin_smith	no wonder it didn't work
11:30	justin_smith	thanks
11:31	puredanger	cfleming: I saw your questions in the backchat - you are probably running into this gem: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-979 which would be great to fix
11:34	Bronsa	there's an even weirder one
11:35	Bronsa	but I can't find the ticket
11:36	puredanger	Bronsa: justin_smith: fwiw, I find the non-ability to layer protocol abstractions to be very frustrating as well. I've asked Rich about it in the past and he didn't seem to have strong feelings either way iirc.
11:36	puredanger	Bronsa: maybe this AOT one: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1544 ?
11:37	Bronsa	puredanger: no it had to do with redef'd deftypes & #ctor[] syntax
11:37	puredanger	doesn't ring a bell
11:38	gfredericks	puredanger: do you know if there's any general guidance around the use of custom data literals/readers in [contrib] libraries?
11:38	gfredericks	I was thinking of making a clojure-dev email about this but that's a lot of effort :)
11:38	puredanger	as far as whether they're ok?
11:38	gfredericks	in particular including a data_readers.clj file
11:38	gfredericks	and the implications of that happening in a library
11:39	puredanger	they were designed for use by libraries, so I would think that is ok
11:39	puredanger	make sure to namespace your tags of course
11:39	gfredericks	yeah; how verbose should a namespace be? e.g. for test.check
11:40	reiddraper	com.gfredericks.is.a.swell.programmer.random.aes
11:40	justin_smith	are multiple data_readers.clj files reliably loaded, even though they all have the same classpath-relative location?
11:41	Bronsa	puredanger: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1495
11:41	gfredericks	justin_smith: looks like core.clj intends to load all of them
11:41	gfredericks	via (.getResources class-loader "data_readers.clj")
11:41	puredanger	Bronsa: right. I don't think that's AOT-related though
11:41	justin_smith	cool
11:41	gfredericks	justin_smith: and leiningen intentionally merges them when doing uberjars
11:41	puredanger	gfredericks: it's 'sposed to work!
11:41	Bronsa	puredanger: the incredibly weird thing is that in the last example, if you don't evaluate "#user.Foo[1]" the (Foo. 1) call will use the updated type
11:42	hiredman	fyi, I am already squatting bytes/*
11:42	Bronsa	puredanger: no definitely a classloader issue. but I honestly think CLJ-979
11:42	Bronsa	and a lot of other "AOT bugs" have to do with the classloader rather than with AOT
11:42	puredanger	hiredman: ideally, should be something a little more tied to the library
11:42	puredanger	Bronsa: no doubt
11:43	gfredericks	puredanger: alrighty I'll go ahead with that using the "clojure.test.check" namespace
11:43	gfredericks	puredanger: thanks!
11:43	hiredman	pfffft
11:43	puredanger	gfredericks: I hate to use anything that long, but I'm not sure how else you end up with a manageable ecosystem? probably just test.check would be fine
11:44	puredanger	hiredman: which lib is bytes/* for ?
11:44	mavbozo`	puredanger: is stuartsierra 's suggestion in this old mailing list thread still relevant? https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure/B4_uGy1VhnA
11:44	mavbozo`	"data_readers.clj is intended for application developers. Libraries may define data reader functions and suggest tags for consumers of that library" - stuartsierra
11:45	stuartsierra	Ignore me
11:45	KnightsWhoSayNi	/ignore stuartsierra
11:45	stuartsierra	Don't use data readers in code.
11:45	stuartsierra	If you have an EDN data file with custom tags, that's fine.
11:45	hiredman	puredanger: https://github.com/hiredman/bytes
11:46	sm0ke	HEY GUYS
11:46	puredanger	well at least it matches the project name :)
11:46	sm0ke	oops sorry for the caps
11:46	gfredericks	stuartsierra: do you still object to a library providing data_readers.clj for something specific to that library (using namespaced tags)?
11:46	stuartsierra	gfredericks: yse
11:46	sm0ke	is there a way to print bytes as readable edn?
11:47	stuartsierra	There's almost never any good reason to make data-literal tags globally visible to all code. A function or macro can do the same job and the semantics are clearer.
11:47	stuartsierra	Again, if you're using it for custom data types in EDN files, that's fine, just pass your custom readers in a map to clojure.edn/read
11:47	gfredericks	stuartsierra: this is for a functional PRNG
11:48	gfredericks	which would be nice to be able to print/read transparently
11:49	gfredericks	especially for repl stuffs
11:49	stuartsierra	I don't think "transparent" (de)serialization is achievable with print/read.
11:49	gfredericks	what's the downside here?
11:49	stuartsierra	There are too many edge cases, it's easier just to extend EDN in the specific places you want to use it.
11:49	mavbozo`	gfredericks: for applications such as datomic, maybe there is a very good reason to include it's own data_readers.clj
11:50	stuartsierra	Even in Datomic, we've had to educate users not to use data literals like #db/ident in code, because they're evaluated only once at read time, which is almost never what you want.
11:50	gfredericks	a prng could be print-dup-able without much trouble
11:52	justin_smith	gfredericks: idea being that a literal would specify a seed, so at read time it would be reset to that seed?
11:52	stuartsierra	Maybe. I hope someone can prove me wrong. So far my experience with tagged literals has been almost as bad as AOT-compilation.
11:52	stuartsierra	So now I'm scarred and just tell people "don't go there."
11:52	gfredericks	justin_smith: it's a pure value, so seed & state sure
11:53	justin_smith	gfredericks: what differentiates a seed and a state in a prng?
11:54	gfredericks	it's just terminology; "entire pertinent internal state" is what I was getting at
11:54	gfredericks	where state is the functional immutable sense of the word
12:02	sm0ke	juuio: is a spam bot
12:02	arrdem	we seem to be missing technomancy's fingerguns
12:03	arrdem	$seen technomancy
12:03	lazybot	technomancy was last seen talking on #leiningen 17 hours and 15 minutes ago.
12:03	justin_smith	arrdem: yeah, I think we need someone with the right privs to deputize some more sherrifs via chanserv
12:03	justin_smith	rhickey, maybe chouser, can do that
12:04	puredanger_	we had this discussion this week. the next time I can talk to rhickey or chouser, I will.
12:04	arrdem	ohai puredanger_
12:04	puredanger_	why I am both puredanger and puredanger_ right now, I don't know :)
12:05	sm0ke	somehow since morning today i am getting jinxed a lot with other people!!
12:05	sm0ke	a lot!! which is kind of creepy
12:05	gfredericks	stuartsierra: I should probably take it to clojure-dev then?
12:06	justin_smith	puredanger_: /msg nickserv ghost puredanger <password>
12:06	sm0ke	right now i was asking for printable edn bytes representation
12:06	sm0ke	and some just posted https://github.com/hiredman/bytes before i could ask!
12:06	arrdem	/kick puredanger_
12:06	EvanR	is postwalk lazy?
12:06	puredanger	test
12:07	justin_smith	arrdem: that works? for some reason I thought nickserv was needed for that
12:07	Empperi	,(type (clojure.walk/postwalk inc [1 2]))
12:07	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.walk, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
12:07	Empperi	darn
12:07	clgv	EvanR: no. how could it walk maps & co if it were? ;)
12:07	justin_smith	EvanR: I don't think it can be, since it can return a hash-map
12:08	EvanR	well that sort of makes sense.
12:08	EvanR	but the IO error does not occur until i pprint the hash map
12:08	EvanR	i can show the keys but not the values
12:08	gfredericks	sm0ke: hiredman: I've been using whidbey for repl pprinting and it includes its own bytes printer :/
12:08	puredanger	EvanR: lazy value?
12:08	justin_smith	EvanR: well, you can have lazy functions inside the postwalk, that don't get forced neccessarily
12:09	EvanR	bingo
12:09	justin_smith	but that's not postwalk being lazy, per-se
12:09	puredanger	if only you had transduced :)
12:09	EvanR	there is a single "map" in the code, im guessing that is it
12:10	mdrogalis	Aside from IFn and Clojure, is there anything in particular that needs to be done before invoking a Clojure fn from Java?
12:10	mdrogalis	Running up against: java.lang.IllegalStateException: Attempting to call unbound fn
12:10	mdrogalis	Both the Clojure and Java code are in the same uberjar.
12:11	clgv	mdrogalis: using the public API e.g. the `var` method should be safe
12:11	mdrogalis	clgv: What do you mean by safe?
12:12	puredanger	mdrogalis: you should initiate the runtime by ensuring that clojure.java.api.Clojure is loaded
12:13	puredanger	(which really loads RT importantly)
12:13	mdrogalis	puredanger: Yep, I imported that, as well as clojure.lang.IFn.
12:13	puredanger	import does not load
12:13	puredanger	calling Clojure.var() or something else will
12:13	mdrogalis	D'oh!
12:14	clgv	IFn f = Clojure.var("my.lib/my-fn"); is the path to go
12:14	puredanger	right
12:14	llasram	+ `require` the namespace for non-clojure.core
12:14	mdrogalis	Actually, looks like I have that covered as well: IFn commission = Clojure.var("my-ns", "my-fn");
12:15	puredanger	http://clojure.github.io/clojure/javadoc/clojure/java/api/package-summary.html
12:15	hiredman	gfredericks: I am so beyond base64 these days
12:15	mdrogalis	llasram: There we go, that'll do it I think.
12:15	puredanger	hiredman: base65
12:15	hiredman	https://github.com/hiredman/base85
12:15	mdrogalis	puredanger: I didn't read down far enough :) Got excited and coded after I saw "invoke"
12:15	gfredericks	hiredman: yeah I was trying to check if the first and second halves of my array were the same and base64 was no help
12:16	mdrogalis	Thanks guys.
12:16	puredanger	mdrogalis: http://tech.puredanger.com/2007/07/11/miller-principle/
12:16	cfleming	puredanger: Thanks, that does look like it.
12:16	puredanger	cfleming: we spent a fearful amount of time fighting that issue at Revelytix
12:17	mdrogalis	puredanger: I got half Miller Time'd. :P
12:17	puredanger	mdrogalis: oof
12:17	llasram	cfleming, puredanger, Bronsa: I vaguely recall an IRC conversation where Bronsa figured out the cause of that issue, but maybe I was hallucinating
12:17	puredanger	cfleming: the workaround we found at the time was to compare classes by name, not Class
12:18	puredanger	llasram: if anyone has figured it out, it would be Bronsa :)
12:18	cfleming	puredanger: So you'd dispatch your multimethod on the class name?
12:18	justin_smith	there is also base-_SEMI_lkjfdsa https://www.refheap.com/90612
12:19	puredanger	cfleming: I'm not saying it's pretty :)
12:19	cfleming	puredanger llasram: No doubt, my money is on Bronsa :)
12:20	cfleming	Which classloader is used when seems like black magic, after looking at the code a little.
12:20	llasram	Rich's commit comment when using the `(let [] ...)` instead of `(do ...)` is "prevent dynamic classes from being flushed before use"
12:25	hiredman	because toplevel do's get hoisted
12:27	puredanger	I don't have time to look at this right now but if there was a solution to it I would be happy to lobby for getting it into 1.7.
12:33	TimMc	hiredman: I'm partial to base256 myself
12:34	hiredman	you've gone too far!
12:34	TimMc	base257
12:36	TimMc	Hmm, I don't see technomancy. I guess I'll just get spammed.
12:37	llasram	base128, for encoding in signed bytes
12:41	cfleming	puredanger: Ok, I'll take a look with my colleague and see what we can see. I suspect time will be short for both of us too.
12:45	kenrestivo	aviso pretty print would be great... if only i could figure out how to turn off the dang colors
12:49	kenrestivo	cause, you know, https://www.refheap.com/94410
12:51	kenrestivo	hah, i found a hack: use timbre error log, since i already have timbre configured :fmt-output-opts {:nofonts? true}
13:07	kenrestivo	are there any examples of what buf-fn needs to be in core.async/pub ? i naively gave (async/pub c :topic (async/buffer 1000)) and it was expecting a fn, so i tried (async/pub c :topic async/buffer), no dice either.
13:10	Bronsa	puredanger: I think I have fixed both clj-979 and clj-1495
13:11	Bronsa	here's a preview of the patch http://sprunge.us/YddP?diff
13:11	llasram	Bronsa: !!!
13:12	llasram	So obvious once you point it out
13:12	Bronsa	the tl;dr is that Class.forName was ignoring the classcache of dynclassloader
13:13	puredanger	hmmm.. sounds promising
13:13	Bronsa	tests are passing, as well as the testcases from the 2 tickets
13:15	puredanger	I've got other focus today but whatever you can do to clean that up for more evaluation would be great
13:15	Bronsa	yeah sure, I'll clean it up and attach it on the ticket
13:15	puredanger	if I'm going to try to get it into 1.7, I will need to mount a compelling case :)
13:15	llasram	(inc Bronsa)
13:15	lazybot	⇒ 74
13:16	puredanger	things that would help: super clean ticket+patch. votes. test runs on external libs. knowledge of cases where people have had to maintain a fork of Clojure to get around it. etc
13:17	kenrestivo	there were two people here last night banging their heads against this IIRC
13:18	puredanger	yes, that was the start of this thread
13:19	kenrestivo	that's amazing how fast it got diagnosed and, apparently, fixed
13:19	kenrestivo	(inc bronsa)
13:19	lazybot	⇒ 75
13:19	puredanger	(inc bronsa) ;indeed
13:19	lazybot	⇒ 76
13:21	puredanger	there may be other jiras out there that this affects as well
13:22	Bronsa	I remember having a long mail convo with ambrosebs about this issue months ago, IIRC he hit this bug aswell with core.typed
13:23	puredanger	CLJ-1544 perhaps ?
13:24	Bronsa	puredanger: just tested that seems unrelated as it's still throwing
13:24	Bronsa	puredanger: I believe CLJ-1544 might be related to the ticket hiredman opened about the classloader being popped
13:25	puredanger	yeah
13:25	puredanger	CLJ-1457
13:25	sdegutis	look, I don't know about you, but metadata is probably my favorite way to use Clojure
13:25	Bronsa	I hate metadata.
13:25	sdegutis	why?
13:25	clojurebot	why is the ram gone
13:25	Bronsa	weird evaluation rules
13:26	Bronsa	weird corner cases
13:26	puredanger	+1 on that :)
13:26	Bronsa	mostly around :tag specifically
13:26	sdegutis	Bronsa: i mean purely on vars
13:26	Bronsa	,(def ^{:foo (println "foo")} a)
13:26	clojurebot	foo\nfoo\n#'sandbox/a
13:26	Bronsa	then there's that.
13:26	sdegutis	I love to do (defn ^:foo ^:bar some-fn [] ...)
13:26	puredanger	don't do that :)
13:27	Bronsa	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1137
13:28	sdegutis	oh wow
13:28	sdegutis	so anyway, metadata is my favorite API
13:28	sdegutis	macros are very limited compared to metadata
13:28	sdegutis	metadata is declarative, macros are transformative
13:28	sdegutis	you cant easily wrap macros, whereas you can easily re-calculate and add metadata
13:28	sdegutis	so far, it is clear to all that we should be using metadata
13:29	Bronsa	,(meta '^:foo {})
13:29	clojurebot	nil
13:29	Bronsa	there's also this
13:29	sdegutis	naturally, i only mean on vars
13:33	Bronsa	puredanger: I guess I'll sneakily link a couple of jira tickets a day when you're on IRC if that helps getting them triaged :P
13:33	puredanger	heh …
13:34	puredanger	well not sure that means much :)
13:34	sdegutis	TIL clojure and crosier rhyme
13:35	puredanger	sounds like the start of a song to me
13:36	sdegutis	i learned the word crosier because i was reading about the pope's new lightsaber crosier and the controversy around it
13:36	sdegutis	didnt know how to pronounce it -- looked it up in the dictionary, it has "ZH" in the "s" part
13:36	sdegutis	took a guess, and looked up "closure" -- sure enough, same ZH!
13:36	sdegutis	and we all know Clojure is pronounced the same as "closure"
13:39	puredanger	Bronsa: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1132 ?
13:39	kenrestivo	looks like the game now is to see how many jira tickets can be closed with one bugfix :-)
13:39	kenrestivo	maybe a new record could be set
13:40	puredanger	no pun intended
13:40	kenrestivo	haha record
13:41	Bronsa	puredanger: yeah that's likely the same issue
13:41	puredanger	I just marked it as a dupe, almost certainly the same thing
13:41	crash_ep	If I have a byte array that represents a series of Unicode characters, and I know the character encoding of this series, what's the best way to convert the byte array into a seq of code points?
13:41	kenrestivo	really, i've heard people complaining about "broken reload semantics" of records/protocols for a while. i'm using tools.namespace.refresh to get around it, as i'm sure many people are. seems like this would be an epic fix.
13:41	Bronsa	puredanger: I'll test it later, having dinner now
13:41	puredanger	Bronsa: np, greatly appreciate your help
13:49	pbomb	Would someone mind taking a peek at this http://bit.ly/1CJthES and letting me know if I'm barking up the wrong tree?
13:49	pbomb	The actual question is in the bottom paragraph.
13:49	Frozenlock	Any good libraries to sanitize form inputs? I tried https://github.com/alxlit/autoclave, but it messes up email addresses :-(
13:50	justin_smith	pbomb: the idea of a "temporary namespace" doesn't make much sense. Maybe you want a let block to bind things in?
13:50	justin_smith	(doc let)
13:50	clojurebot	"([bindings & body]); binding => binding-form init-expr Evaluates the exprs in a lexical context in which the symbols in the binding-forms are bound to their respective init-exprs or parts therein."
13:51	justin_smith	$grim let
13:51	justin_smith	err
13:51	justin_smith	$grim clojure.core/let
13:51	lazybot	http://grimoire.arrdem.com/1.6.0/clojure.core/let
13:51	justin_smith	see examples in the above link
13:51	pbomb	justin_smith: Doh, that simple - thanks.
13:53	justin_smith	pbomb: actually - so does the file have defn in it? if so it may need its own namespace
13:53	pbomb	justin_smith: Yes, it will have.
13:54	justin_smith	but in that case the right thing to use is the ns macro, creating an ns does not map clojure.core, but ns does that
13:54	justin_smith	or you could require that a migration define a namespace, unless it makes sense to put all the migration in one ns
13:55	puredanger	btw, I've been trying to track AOT issues at http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/AOT+Problem+Overview with an eye toward making a push to get them all fixed by 1.8. I may be missing some. please add it so.
13:58	Bronsa	puredanger: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1495 is also a dupe of 979
13:59	puredanger	thx
14:00	Bronsa	puredanger: also CLJ-1544 is missing from that wiki page
14:00	Bronsa	err I mean 1457
14:00	puredanger	it's there?
14:00	puredanger	oh, thx
14:01	Bronsa	sorry, I have a bunch of jira tickets open and I opened the wrong one
14:02	puredanger	CLJ-1457 does not seem overtly like AOT?
14:02	Bronsa	ah uhm you're right.
14:04	pbomb	justin_smith: Thanks.
14:04	pbomb	justin_smith: Will explore all of the above.
14:05	Bronsa	puredanger: btw I'm scoping the patch for fixing the classloader issue rather than targetting only the AOT bugs. this just means that I'm replacing a bunch of class.forName calls with the patched RT.classForName
14:05	puredanger	sure
14:06	puredanger	we will need to make the ticket align with the real problem/fix. I can help with that.
14:08	justin_smith	pbomb: also, you could manually call refer to get clojure.core into scope, you may want to consider clearing the ns when done as well (especially if there is more than one migration to run)
14:09	justin_smith	$grim clojure.core/refer
14:09	lazybot	http://grimoire.arrdem.com/1.6.0/clojure.core/refer
14:10	pbomb	justin_smith: I've just tried that and it seems to be working.
14:10	justin_smith	cool!
14:11	justin_smith	pbomb: the function for clearing the ns would be clojure.core/remove-ns
14:16	pbomb	justin_smith: Thanks, here's what I did in the end: https://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/264601/i-would-like-to-run-load-file-in-a-sandboxed-namespace-in-clojure
14:17	justin_smith	pbomb: so you only need the keys from the loaded ns?
14:17	pbomb	justin_smith: No, eventually I'll need to execute a function from that ns.
14:18	justin_smith	aha, so then you probably want to export the whole ns-publics datastructure
14:18	justin_smith	since the remove-ns will unbind all of that
14:18	pbomb	justin_smith: I'll probably just pass in a body to be executed before remove-ns
14:18	justin_smith	but you can just use the map from ns-publics to find all the functions by name
14:18	justin_smith	aha
14:18	justin_smith	that works too
14:19	pbomb	Thanks again.
14:19	justin_smith	np
14:43	dimovich	Hello... I'm running Emacs on Windows with Cider 0.8.1 and cider-nrepl 0.8.1 (it's present in the maven cache)...
14:43	dimovich	Nevertheless, I get "WARNING: CIDER's version (0.8.1) does not match cider-nrepl's version (not installed)"
14:44	dimovich	maybe someone can point me to the right direction...
14:46	justin_smith	dimovich: how are you specifying to lein that the cider-nrepl lib should be used?
14:46	justin_smith	dimovich: usually you would add it as a dependency in ~/.lein/profiles.clj
14:47	dimovich	I have in my profiles.clj files the ":plugins [[cider/cider-nrepl "0.8.1"]"
14:47	justin_smith	it's not a plugin
14:47	justin_smith	it is used at runtime, so it has to be a dependency
14:47	justin_smith	so put it in :dependencies
14:47	gfredericks	unless it's a plugin that adds itself as a dependency
14:47	justin_smith	gfredericks: that's weird and bad and I hate that idea :P
14:47	gfredericks	which could make sense here since presumably you need to add middleware too
14:47	justin_smith	gfredericks: hmm
14:47	gfredericks	so only a plugin could do that in one step
14:48	gfredericks	I haven't checked if it actually does this or not :)
14:48	Bronsa	puredanger: would you rather a patch with 3 commit:, -fix RT.classForName, -replace Class.forName with RT.classForName -tests or a squashed patch?
14:49	justin_smith	gfredericks: anyway, I have never succeeded in using cider as a plugin, only as a dependency. I got it to work by switching it to dependencies rather than plugins
14:49	puredanger	Bronsa: squashed
14:52	dimovich	justin_smith: putting it in :dependecies breaks everything...
14:53	justin_smith	dimovich: that's really weird - what do you mean by breaks everything?
14:54	mavbozo	dimovich: i'm still using cider 0.7.0 and :plugins [[cider/cider-nrepl "0.7.0"]] in my windows maching
14:55	dimovich	mavbozo: thx
14:55	dimovich	justin_smith: when I switch to :dependencies I get the "Please, install (or update) cider-nrepl 0.8.1 and restart CIDER"
14:57	Bronsa	puredanger: woop, race condition. I accidentaly removed your triaged
15:01	dimovich	Seems the warning appears whenever I start cider from a buffer in clojure-mode... If I start cider from a text buffer, everything runs ok...
15:01	Bronsa	llasram: cfleming http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-979 vote up if interested
15:02	TylerE	What's the current recommendation for an intro book/tutorial that is up to date?
15:03	dbasch	TylerE: what’s your background?
15:03	TylerE	mostly python
15:03	TylerE	some (common) lisp but that was like 10 years ago
15:03	dbasch	you can check this out and see if you like it http://www.braveclojure.com/
15:03	TylerE	so e.g. I don't need something that spends 100 pages talking about s-exprs and how cool macros are (but not how to write them)
15:04	mavbozo	dimovich: by starting, you mean cider-jack-in ?
15:04	dbasch	the joy of clojure is a great book if you’re already somewhat familiar with clojure/lisp
15:05	dimovich	mavbozo: yes
15:06	mavbozo	dimovich: maybe there's a conflict in your project.clj file? (assuming you are in a project dir)
15:08	mavbozo	TylerE: Clojure Programming contains some python codes as comparison
15:09	mavbozo	TylerE: even comparison of call syntax between Clojure, Java, Python, Ruby
15:09	mavbozo	in page 8
15:10	dimovich	mavbozo: yeah, the warning appears whenever I start cider from a project dir...
15:10	dimovich	but project.clj doesn't define any :plugins
15:11	mavbozo	dimovich: try put cider-nrepl in :plugins
15:11	mavbozo	dimovich: in your project
15:13	dimovich	mavbozo: nope... same warning
15:13	dimovich	I'll try making a new project with lein new, and see how that goes
15:16	dimovich	mavbozo: the new project works fine... no warning...
15:18	puredanger	arrdem justin_smith andyf amalloy : fyi, chouser helped me out and I now have ops here
15:19	justin_smith	cool
15:19	amalloy	neato, thanks puredanger and chouser
15:19	Bronsa	nice
15:19	puredanger	the next time I chat with Rich, I'll ask him whether I can deputize a couple others
15:20	arrdem	sweet
15:20	sg2002	TylerE: Clojure programming is more or less current. Only some korma-related(clojure sql dsl) stuff changed.
15:23	sg2002	TylerE: JOC is ok, but as someone who started with it, I won't really recommend it as your first clojure book. It's nice to read it later as kind of an exam of your clojure knowledge. Though maybe second edition changed... Haven't read that one.
15:24	chouser	We've heard reports that the 2nd ed is a bit easier to read, but JoC was never meant as an introductory book.
15:25	Bronsa	puredanger: so I have a version of the current patch that also fixes CLJ-1457
15:26	Bronsa	puredanger: I'll attach that version along the current one as this might need some discussion
15:26	puredanger	is it inter-related?
15:27	Bronsa	puredanger: kinda sorta. CLJ-1457 is fixed by making classForName _always_ look in the DynamicClassLoader cache first even if the baseLoader is not a DynamicClassLoader
15:28	Bronsa	puredanger: but this might just be a workaround, not sure.
15:28	sg2002	chouser: Well, you had some introductury stuff in it, so to me it looked like "you can use this as an introductury book, if you really wish". Still, thanks for the book, gonna also buy second edition when I'll have time to read it.
15:28	puredanger	Bronsa: does the 1457 change require the 979 change?
15:28	puredanger	might be better to attach it to 1457
15:29	Bronsa	puredanger: yes it does
15:29	chouser	sg2002: yes, that's true. Maybe we would have been better out all suggestion of introductory material.
15:29	puredanger	Bronsa: well, attach it somewhere. :) I will take a look.
15:30	chouser	sg2002: Anyway, I hope you got some use out of the book.
15:32	sg2002	chouser: Was worth every penny. To bad that debug macro does not work well in cider. But I've read that there's gonna be a debugger in cider someday.
15:33	Bronsa	puredanger: attached & cross referenced
15:33	chouser	That's good to hear. You /can/ use a real debugger in emacs via ritz, but I'm uncertain if the value is worth the setup cost.
15:39	@puredanger	amalloy: I gave you op, same as technomancy
15:42	xaxes`	hello, I've just started learning clojure and I have a little problem with stack overflow in this snippet: http://wklej.org/id/1548127/
15:42	xaxes`	what am I doing wrong?
15:42	EvanR	head explode once again, as it turns out java.util.Date is NOT zoned
15:43	puredanger	java.util.Date is the worstest
15:43	puredanger	except for Calendar, that's worse
15:43	arohner	EvanR: use joda or jdk8 instants, if you can
15:43	EvanR	in the process i discovered the "next final form" of Calendar
15:43	pbomb	justin_smith: FYI, http://www.clodoc.org/doc/clojure.contrib.with-ns/with-temp-ns
15:43	pbomb	justin_smith: Used to exist in contrib.
15:43	EvanR	arohner: yes, but i have to process java.util.Dates at least to get away from them
15:44	arohner	yup
15:44	justin_smith	pbomb: yeah, remarkably close to whate you ended up with
15:44	sdegutis	hello what is a good local backup strategy that doesnt use dropbox but has redundancy thank you
15:44	llasram	xaxes`: you seem to be swapping argument order in your recursive call
15:44	xaxes`	oh...
15:44	xaxes`	O
15:45	xaxes`	llasram: thank you
15:45	xemdetia	sdegutis, what are you even trying to back up
15:46	justin_smith	sdegutis: rsync
15:46	sdegutis	xemdetia: everything
15:46	sdegutis	justin_smith: thanks what kind of hardware thanks in advance
15:46	xemdetia	sdegutis, rsync is software and I would recommend just doing that
15:46	xemdetia	you need another server somewhere you are replicating to
15:46	justin_smith	sdegutis: rsync is a software, point it at a hard drive, and it does smart incremental backups, only sending things that have updated
15:47	xaxes`	llasram: now it throws null pointer exception ._.
15:47	sdegutis	i have a fireproof/waterproof backup drive i hope that will be enough
15:47	justin_smith	sdegutis: or you can even point it at a remote host, if the server is set up nicely
15:47	justin_smith	sdegutis: if you have the bandwidth for it, run rsync and point it to a machine in another location
15:47	sdegutis	justin_smith: thanks in advance, appreciated.
15:48	justin_smith	maybe populate the drive locally first, and then do the incrementals to a remote
15:49	justin_smith	sdegutis: I just found a bunch of crap I was working on in 2004 thanks to having used rsync. I thought it was lost but I had merely forgot where I put the external drive.
15:49	sdegutis	haha
15:50	justin_smith	like, I forgot how much ocaml code I wrote
15:50	sdegutis	i wonder does rsync handle nicely if you just move a directory to a subdirectory of another directory like does it know just to move things and not re-send everything thanks?
15:50	sdegutis	justin_smith: wow you must love ocaml
15:51	justin_smith	sdegutis: http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/102620/rsync-that-handles-moves-sensibly
15:52	sdegutis	sick
15:52	justin_smith	http://rdiff-backup.nongnu.org/ looks nice actually
15:53	sdegutis	ill be the judge of that
15:55	sdegutis	crap i screwed up my dropbox sync somehow by moving two directories too quickly in a row and now its resyncing the whole thing
15:55	EvanR	put directory in directory
15:56	EvanR	put bag in bag
15:57	epichero	put lime in coconut
15:57	mikerod	I'm fairly sure I read something about leiningen one time where you could work with 2 (or more perhaps) projects at the same time from the REPL in parallel
15:57	mikerod	without any clean-install stuff
15:58	mikerod	is this a plugin or a command? I am not seeing it come up in any searches, except one that had a dead link
15:58	justin_smith	mikerod: maybe lein checkouts?
15:58	justin_smith	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/doc/TUTORIAL.md#checkout-dependencies
15:59	mikerod	ok, I was searching for the wrong combinations of words I think
15:59	mikerod	justin_smith: yes, that does ring a bell now. I think that's what I'm looking for. Thanks!
16:02	justin_smith	weird off topic question: what IRC channel would I ask about sending/receiving data via a serial port connected to a tandy102? Bonus points if I can get it hooked up as an actually tty I could log in to.
16:08	EvanR	,#inst "2011-01-01"
16:08	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>
16:13	justin_smith	&#inst "2011-01-01"
16:13	lazybot	⇒ #inst "2011-01-01T00:00:00.000-00:00"
16:15	EvanR	&(.getYear #inst "2011-01-01")
16:15	lazybot	⇒ 111
16:15	EvanR	&(.getFullYear #inst "2011-01-01")
16:15	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: getFullYear for class java.util.Date
16:17	dbasch	justin_smith: do you have a a computer with an rs232 serial port to connect to the tandy?
16:17	justin_smith	dbasch: rs232->usb adaptor
16:17	justin_smith	connected, but getting nothing but junk characters
16:17	dbasch	justin_smith: this thread from 1996 may be useful if you haven’t seen it https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.sys.tandy/Ki7wu1shKwQ
16:18	justin_smith	I really like the idea of a simple laptop that runs on AA batteries, with a week of battery life, that can also be a terminal
16:18	justin_smith	dbasch: cool, thanks!
16:27	MartinHynar	hi, I am playing with an idea that component library could help me on controlling starting/stooping few things in my project, but I feel I am missing some clue on how to correctly use it when my functions need things controlled by component and I can't pass a component instance as parameter. So far, it is 1 day experience with component, so I might be perhaps not using it in the intended way, Hints welcome. I made an example here: https://gist.
16:30	geekygator	@MartinHynar I think your link got cut off
16:31	MartinHynar	https://gist.github.com/martinhynar/25abd9fb3e1ac88a9030
16:31	justin_smith	&(-> (doto (.build (java.util.Calendar$Builder.)) (.setTime #inst "2011-01-01")) (.get java.util.Calendar/YEAR)) ;; EvanR
16:31	lazybot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: java.util.Calendar$Builder
16:31	justin_smith	blerg
16:32	justin_smith	oh, Calendar$Builder is new in java 8
16:32	EvanR	the Date does not represent a date, but a timestamp. the Calendar does not represent dates either, but ZONED timestamps. WTF
16:32	MartinHynar	Are the links filtered out, or is it broken?
16:32	puredanger	MartinHynar: you might find this talk useful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13cmHf_kt-Q
16:32	EvanR	youll have to excuse me i am new to java
16:33	justin_smith	EvanR: I think the preferred option is just to use joda time, which clj-time is a frontend for
16:34	EvanR	im using clj-time
16:34	puredanger	EvanR: unless you are on Java 8, where you should consider the new library (led by the joda author)
16:34	EvanR	and datomic gives you a Date
16:34	weavejes_	The Java date/time system is notoriously bad
16:34	EvanR	and my library accepts Dates and Calendars
16:34	weavejes_	puredanger: Oh, they're finally fixing it?
16:34	MartinHynar	puredanger: thanks, I'll see it first
16:34	puredanger	Java 8 has an entirely new library based on the ideas in Joda
16:35	puredanger	JSR 310 was the project
16:35	TimMc	The weird thing is that it's not like they didn't put any thought into the old one.
16:35	TimMc	I mean, just check out the javadoc for Date.
16:36	puredanger	http://www.threeten.org/
16:38	mikerod	I have a project that has both a Maven pom and a Leiningen project. It seems everytime I run `lein install` it overwrites my maven pom as well?
16:38	justin_smith	mikerod: lein install will replace anything you have locally with the same coordinates, yes
16:39	justin_smith	both the pom and the jar
16:41	kenrestivo	~j.u.c.
16:41	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
16:41	kenrestivo	~date
16:41	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
16:41	kenrestivo	~j.u.d.
16:41	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
16:41	mikerod	justin_smith: can I stop this behavior?
16:42	mikerod	justin_smith: why does it need to alter the pom? why not just package the project and install
16:42	mikerod	I always just revert it :)
16:42	justin_smith	it generates and installs a pom
16:42	mikerod	hmm for some maven interop?
16:42	ordnungswidrig	mikerod: why shouldn't it update the pom?
16:43	justin_smith	there needs to be a pom file for the dep resolution stuff to work properly I think?
16:43	mikerod	ordnungswidrig: it is complicated, but I'm using leiningen only for development
16:43	kenrestivo	lein-pom?
16:43	justin_smith	mikerod: that's good, because lein is a development only tool
16:43	mikerod	we haven't been able to generate a sufficient pom via lein yet
16:43	mikerod	so we have a manually made pom
16:43	mikerod	that we use for deployment
16:43	ordnungswidrig	hmm
16:44	kenrestivo	could go the opposite way https://github.com/thickey/lein-nevam
16:45	mikerod	hah I did not notice why it was named taht until now
16:45	kenrestivo	i vaguely rememebr there being a lein plugin or set of project options that'd let you customize the generated pom
16:45	mikerod	I've seen some extensively complex poms generated via lein
16:45	mikerod	I think it is possible now
16:45	justin_smith	mikerod: do you need to run lein install? what about lein jar, followed by using your known good pom and the resulting jar?
16:45	mikerod	but I have just not had a full-team onboard with that idea yet though
16:45	mikerod	but lein is still great for development because there is a lot of support out there for it now
16:46	mikerod	justin_smith: I'd imagine that would work
16:46	justin_smith	see also the pom options as demonstrated in the example project.clj https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj#L429
16:47	mikerod	one weird "issue" we currently have is we have "release scripts" that automatically go regex hunting maven poms to bump the version on internally developed snapshot dependencies
16:47	mikerod	so if we were 100% based in the leiningen project world, it'd have ot find the dep versions to bump there instead
16:48	mikerod	not impossible, just haven't went there yet
16:48	mikerod	Beyond that, I think there is enough support now to generate some complex maven poms. I haven't seen how far it can be pushed though.
16:49	justin_smith	mikerod: in that example, it shows how to generate arbitrary xml output
16:49	mikerod	justin_smith: this example does have some good stuff init though, thanks for the link
16:50	mikerod	justin_smith: I believe you are referring to :pom-additions
16:50	justin_smith	yeah
16:50	mikerod	I was not aware of that feature. That's pretty cool.
16:51	justin_smith	it's singular, though, no s
16:51	mikerod	woops, yes good catch hah
16:51	mikerod	I'll have to play around with this and see how it works out
16:51	mikerod	looks like lein is all-powerful now
16:53	sdegutis	I'm not sure we're creating the right macros. I think we'd do better to create lower-level macros e.g. language features or control-flow features, than to use them in APIs.
16:56	moquist	mikerod: I'm coming in late, but your comment about your "release scripts" tells me you might be interested in lein voom ( https://github.com/LonoCloud/lein-voom ) at some point.
17:02	andyf	sdegutis: whatever you use for local backups, I'd recommend keeping 2 physical backups, with one kept in different location (e.g. friend's home, safe deposit box, locked drawer at office) and rotate them every month or so. Protects against theft fire and some other things
17:02	mikerod	moquist: thanks for the link. this does look interesting. I'll have to look at it a bit more.
17:02	sdegutis	andyf: theft im not worried about (we live nowhere), fire what about just getting fireproof drive?
17:03	andyf	Yay, amalloy has ops. Kicks to spammers all around
17:03	kenrestivo	solo hoy :-)
17:04	andyf	sdegutis: Your call. Think how sad you might be if fire destroyed fireproof drive, and decide.
17:04	amalloy	goodness, do i? i guess i'll have to look up how to use this stuff
17:04	sdegutis	amalloy: do u also kickban trolls? just ciruous
17:04	amalloy	i will rule with an iron fist. anyone who doesn't say nice things about me at least once a day? gone
17:04	xemdetia	amalloy, u so pretty
17:05	andyf	(inc amalloy)
17:05	lazybot	⇒ 201
17:05	EvanR	(dec amalloy)
17:05	lazybot	⇒ 200
17:06	sdegutis	amalloy: my what large karma you have
17:07	puredanger	amalloy: use your powers only for good :)
17:07	hiredman	~amalloy
17:07	clojurebot	amalloy is the spotlight illuminating my dumb mistakes
17:08	xemdetia	amalloy's karma can only be matched by his charity towards ducks
17:08	puredanger	amalloy: or for humorous mischief
17:08	amalloy	hah
17:09	sdegutis	$karma amalloy
17:09	lazybot	amalloy has karma 200.
17:10	xemdetia	is there a good place to read about the current state of binary logging in general? google is blown out for me by mysqlness
17:26	TimMc	andyf: I'd go further and recommend using a different backup strategy with each drive. Protects against certain systemic failures.
17:27	justin_smith	xemdetia: I think the "binary log" is a specific mysql thing, and not really a term for a general logging technique. Some systems store logs in a manner that is not human readable, but I don't think any of them distinguish that as their primary motive or feature.
17:27	andyf	Wow. I've been out-safeties
17:28	xemdetia	justin_smith, I was more talking just the general motions of the industry as a whole, e.g. systemd's binary logs and other fun stuff.
17:28	andyf	*safetied
17:28	TimMc	One of my backups is rsync with --link-dest to another drive (so a series of de-duped snapshots), another is tarsnap (remote, encrypted, de-duping), and a third is a drive image (done twice a year from a live USB.)
17:30	justin_smith	xemdetia: yeah, I don't think you can generalize about them though. Osx has binary logs, systemd has binary logs, mysql has binary logs. But other than the fact that humans can read them without some program that interprets the data, what else can we say about them as a group?
17:30	justin_smith	s/can/can't
17:31	ordnungswidrig	systemd binary logs are a clear deviation from the unix way of doing things.
17:32	fowlslegs	I'm trying to use flipBit for BigIntegers, but I can't figure out the java_interop syntax.
17:32	TimMc	ordnungswidrig: Would The Unix Way™ approve of structured (e.g. JSON) logs?
17:33	ordnungswidrig	TimMc: of course not :-) That kind of logs must be human readable
17:33	TimMc	JSON is pretty readable.
17:34	cfleming	Bronsa: I owe you beer, thanks :-)
17:34	gfredericks	it's a lot easier to go from JSON->readable than readable->JSON
17:35	TimMc	It has become increasingly clear to me that logs as a giant stream of random unstructured multiline crap is wrongheaded and only leads to pain.
17:35	EvanR	havent you heard of elastic search
17:35	TimMc	The fact that there are tons of log analyzers out there means we should be using structured formats in the first place.
17:36	TimMc	Any time you have alerts based on graphs based on regex analysis of human-readable debugging output you've done something terribly wrong.
17:36	ordnungswidrig	TimMc: I'm all with you, as long as we're sure what will replace good old plain text. Every application inventing a binary log format is not helpful
17:36	ordnungswidrig	I'd prefer edn :)
17:36	tuft	EDN works nice
17:37	TimMc	I'm not wild about binary formats in general.
17:37	tuft	want to analyze some logs? open a repl
17:37	EvanR	make sure you dont log a :
17:38	edw	I'm looking for a no b.s. peer-to-peer messaging package for Clojure. Anyone really like anything in particular?
17:41	sg2002	ordnungswidrig: How about we replace good old plain text with clojure? ;-)
17:43	TimMc	We have metrics (which are great for primitive data) and audit logs (which are fine if you have a small number of schemas) and then we dump everything else to logs. I think that indicates we need something that's like a middle ground between all of those -- loose or no schema, amenable to graphing, data-bearing, non-lossy.
17:43	uris77	what does ${::some-symbol} do?
17:43	uris77	kind of hard to google for #{::}
17:43	Bronsa	,::foo
17:43	uris77	sorry, s/$/#
17:43	clojurebot	:sandbox/foo
17:44	chouser	uris77: #{} is a set, and as Bronsa has shown double-colon reads as a keyword with a prefix equal to the current namespace
17:44	sg2002	uris77: It's a set with keyword ::foo
17:45	uris77	oh, so it just prepends the ns to the keyword inside the set
17:45	Bronsa	uris77: correct, and it also can resolve aliased namespaces
17:46	Bronsa	,(alias 'foo 'clojure.core)
17:46	clojurebot	nil
17:46	Bronsa	,::foo/bar
17:46	clojurebot	:clojure.core/bar
17:46	uris77	oh, nice
17:46	fowlslegs	,(.flipBit (biginteger 8) 1)
17:46	uris77	thank you
17:46	clojurebot	10
17:46	Bronsa	uris77: so if you have say (:require [some.ns :as s]), ::s/foo will resolve to :some.ns/foo
17:47	uris77	hmmm, can't I also just do s/foo without the :: prefix?
17:47	Bronsa	yes
17:47	Bronsa	,:foo/bar
17:47	clojurebot	:foo/bar
17:47	Bronsa	,::foo/bar
17:47	clojurebot	:clojure.core/bar
17:47	Bronsa	uris77: : will not resolve aliases in the keyword, :: will
17:47	TimMc	,foo/bar
17:47	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such var: foo/bar, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
17:49	TMA	,'foo/bar
17:49	clojurebot	foo/bar
17:49	uris77	hmmm, I'm confused. I'm doing (:require [some.ns as s]) and s/foo works
17:49	uris77	s/as/:as
17:49	chouser	uris77: yes, but :s/foo is just :s/foo
17:49	TMA	,foo/conj
17:49	clojurebot	#<core$conj__4079 clojure.core$conj__4079@32d521>
17:49	chouser	::s/foo is :some.ns/foo
17:50	uris77	ah, ok
17:50	justin_smith	uris77: I think you are maybe unclear on the keyword vs. symbol distinction?
17:51	chouser	wow, what a lot of little details
17:51	chouser	s/foo only resolves to some.ns if some.ns has a var named foo
17:51	chouser	...or if s/foo is in a syntax-quote
17:52	chouser	:s/foo never does
17:52	uris77	so, I understand that #{::foo} will give me #{:ns/foo} . I was just confused by (:require [some.ns :as s]), ::s/foo
17:52	chouser	rather, :s/foo is always :s/foo
17:52	chouser	and ::s/foo is :some.ns/foo regardless of the existence of any var in some.ns
17:52	Bronsa	chouser well yeah I mean, symbols always resolve to vars or error out, keywords have nothing to do with vars
17:52	uris77	my confusion was that I can also do s/foo and couldn't understand why I would need ::s/foo
17:54	uris77	but I think I understand now. if I need to add a function from that ns into a set, I can do so using :: . Sorry for being confused. Newbie here.
17:54	Bronsa	chouser keywords don't really have much to do with namespaces either it only happens that they resolve alias using a shared mapping with the namespace system
17:55	chouser	Bronsa: you're right. Add something about syntax-quote and we'll have said much the same thing. :-)
17:55	Bronsa	uris77: no, you are confusing keywords with symbols. symbols have no ':' and map to a value, keywords have a : and _are_ values
17:55	TMA	,(namespace ::foo/bar)
17:55	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: ::foo/bar>
17:55	Bronsa	TMA the alias expired
17:55	Bronsa	,(alias 'foo 'clojure.core)
17:55	clojurebot	nil
17:55	TMA	oh
17:55	Bronsa	,(namespace ::foo/bar)
17:55	clojurebot	"clojure.core"
17:56	TMA	,(namespace :clojure.core/bar)
17:56	clojurebot	"clojure.core"
17:56	TMA	,(namespace :foo/bar)
17:56	clojurebot	"foo"
17:57	TimMc	Bronsa: Well... symbols also are values, but it is not their primary function.
17:57	Bronsa	TimMc: in the context of evaluated clojure only quoted symbols are values
17:58	justin_smith	uris77: and the point of namespaced keywords is when you have a map that could contain vailues from multiple places, it prevents the keys different libs use from colliding
17:58	TimMc	Mmm, fair.
17:58	justin_smith	*values
17:59	TimMc	Bronsa: Clojure has so much support for self-evaluating literals that lists and symbols are kind of an exception -- and I forget about them when talking about code-as-data. :-)
17:59	TimMc	whereas in some other lisps self-evaluating forms are more of a novelty :-P
17:59	chouser	Is that a condescention of programmers? No, it's a pedant of Clojurites! ;-)
17:59	Bronsa	TimMc: it doesn't help much that the difference between the different stages are not that clear cut. Makes it hard to talk precisely about this stuff
18:00	TMA	TimMc: I do not concur. symbols and list are the only non-self evaluating objects in Common Lisp
18:01	TimMc	TMA: How many self-evaluating forms does Common Lisp have? I'm not familiar with it.
18:01	TMA	TimMc: take the numerical constants for example. 1 => 1
18:02	TimMc	Numbers are probably universally in that category, yes. :-)
18:02	TimMc	(def 3 (+ 2 1))
18:03	justin_smith	TimMc: yeah, likely the only languages without numeric literals are the super-minimal esolangs
18:03	TMA	TimMc: or the strings "a" => "a" ; vectors #(a b c) => #(a b c) ; structures (as defined by defstruct)
18:03	Bronsa	andyf: ping
18:03	andyf	Pong
18:03	TimMc	Strings!
18:03	TimMc	But not everyone has vectors and sets and maps as literals.
18:03	Bronsa	andyf: next t.a.jvm snapshot is going to break a lot of your pattern matchings against ASTs
18:04	TimMc	Booleans and nil vary as well.
18:04	TimMc	I think in Racket, true, false, and nil are symbols that eval to those values.
18:04	TimMc	I really appreciate that regularity.
18:04	justin_smith	keywords, characters, regexes
18:04	TMA	alas CL has no standard notation for sets/maps
18:04	justin_smith	dates
18:05	justin_smith	record types
18:05	Bronsa	andyf: just warning you in case you wanted to try it. I'm thinking about adding a function to safely pattern match (:do/:with-meta aware)
18:05	andyf	Thanks for advanced notice. I'll be sure not to update to latest t.a.j. until I'm ready to go through that.
18:07	andyf	I can always destress myself by remembering: "Eastwood is only a lint tool, with no computational results that are affected if output is undesirable." :-)
18:07	TMA	TimMc: but, all-told, when writing an evaluator for CL you have (defun eval (v ...) (cond ((symbolp v) (eval-symbol v ...)) ((consp v) (eval-list v ...)) (t v)))
18:10	Bronsa	andyf: ah I cut a release with the column patch a few hours ago. Many thanks for the help on that
18:10	Bronsa	andyf: a tools.reader release, that is
18:11	andyf	Grazie. Latest code I've been checking in doesn't rely on that, but I probably will some day
18:39	turbofail	g
18:39	turbofail	whoops
18:47	m3talsmith	bbyler_tho: hi
18:48	bbyler_tho	m3talsmith hey buddy!
19:04	arohner	I don't suppose anyone has a library that works like deliver, but throws exceptions when deref'd?
19:05	arohner	I'd like to be able to (let [p (promise)] (deliver p (/ 1 0)), and have deliver store the exception, and make @p throw it
19:10	hiredman	arohner: manifold maybe
19:11	hiredman	I haven't used it, but if I recall it has a thing like a promise with the concept of failure and success
19:11	arohner	hiredman: that looks interesting, thanks
20:20	david234567	Hello! I have a question about core.async channels. If I have a channel with a buffer size of 10 and I put 10 things into it, then read 10 things into it, can I then put more things into it?
20:22	thearthur	david234567: yes
20:22	thearthur	if you ment read 10 thuings out of it
20:22	thearthur	rather than "then read 10 │ Cr8 things into it
20:23	thearthur	(cut pase failZ)
20:25	david234567	I did mean that, read 10 things out of (<!)
20:25	david234567	*of it
20:25	david234567	ook, awesome. Thank you!
20:26	david234567	(I was worried for a bit there)
20:28	doritostains	I have a function that returns a multi-artiy function, how do I call one of the arities from the other?
20:32	hyPiRion	,((fn foo ([a] (foo a 1)) ([a b] (+ a b))) 2)
20:32	clojurebot	3
20:36	david234567	Another question about async, when does >!! stop blocking?
20:37	doritostains	hyPiRion: thanks! didn’t know fn could take a name!
20:42	thearthur	david234567: when a message is recieved or the channel is closed
20:43	thearthur	iff the channel is closed will it return nil
20:44	thearthur	david234567: sorrh read that the other way, when a message is read from the channel or someone else closes the channel
20:44	david234567	ook, Thank you thearthur!
20:54	kenrestivo	unless you have a buffer...
20:55	kenrestivo	if it's a sliding buffer it'll never block at all.
20:55	kenrestivo	or dropping buffer
20:59	david234567	When I open a clojure file in emacs/cider that depends on other files in the same directory, why do I get a compiler error (classpath) error when I try to load it into the repl?
21:00	david234567	I guess it's expecting the other files to be opened first
21:00	david234567	but it should be able to find them right?
21:00	gfredericks	are those files actually on your jvm's classpath?
21:01	gfredericks	it's funny you ask this because I just got done manually evaling like six files because they were in a different project
21:01	david234567	I actually don't know how to do that
21:02	itruslove	david234567: something else that springs to mind is if that you have dashes in your namespace names, they should be underscores in the file path
21:02	gfredericks	david234567: typically you will organize your code as a leiningen project; when you have that, doing M-x cider-jack-in from one of that project's files should do the right thing
21:02	gfredericks	`lein new foo` to generate a project
21:03	david234567	ook, here's a picture of my problem
21:03	david234567	http://i.imgur.com/3zQBfkC.png
21:04	david234567	I used cider-jack-in on serverlist.clj and C-c C-k'd it
21:04	david234567	I then opened profiles.clj
21:04	gfredericks	david234567: there's just one project involved here?
21:04	david234567	yeah
21:05	david234567	erm
21:05	david234567	I guess so, I had to wrangle async_sockets to work right by downloading the file and placing it with the rest
21:06	david234567	Here's the part of code that it doesn't like
21:06	david234567	http://i.imgur.com/1kzaYrc.png
21:09	david234567	not sure if this helps but this is the dir structure
21:09	david234567	http://i.imgur.com/vVa1HuB.png
21:09	itruslove	david234567: have you restarted the repl since adding the dependency on com.gearswithingears/async-sockets in your project.clj?
21:10	david234567	yes, but I could probably remove that as it doesn't work (i'm not sure why)
21:14	david234567	now it can't find core.async hmm
21:14	itruslove	david234567: I think the problem is what you're requiring
21:15	itruslove	you need to (:require [com.gearswithingears.async-sockets :as s])
21:15	itruslove	I was looking at https://github.com/bguthrie/async-sockets/tree/master - I think the README is wrong
21:16	itruslove	you should only need the source files you are writing in your src directory - the rest should be deleted.
21:17	itruslove	Check out the tests - https://github.com/bguthrie/async-sockets/blob/master/test/com/gearswithingears/async_sockets_test.clj#L6
21:19	david234567	Ok! I'll try that
21:20	david234567	:O IT WORKS!
21:20	david234567	:D
21:21	itruslove	great!
21:21	david234567	Thank you so much!
21:21	itruslove	you're very welcome. Good luck with the rest!
21:27	david234567	Thank you to everyone here! I'mma go now, thanks again!
21:52	craigglennie	I’m using Cursive Clojure, and wondering if there’s a way to do partial history completion / partial history search (I don’t know the correct term) when using the REPL. For example, in iPython, if I type “def get” and press up it only shows history where the text started with “def get”
21:52	craigglennie	I think Cursive is using nREPL, and I tried to find a setting for that option, but I think maybe it doesn’t exist
21:53	cfleming	craigglennie: You're looking for the Tools->REPL->Search REPL history action
21:53	cfleming	craigglennie: Which you can bind to a key, of course
21:53	cfleming	craigglennie: You can invoke that from anywhere, too - you don't have to be in the REPL editor
21:54	craigglennie	cfleming: It doesn’t seem like I can type part of what I want to find, but this is still much better
21:54	cfleming	craigglennie: Yes, you can type in that popup and it will narrow down
21:56	craigglennie	clfeming: I see… it’s a little counter-intuitive; I thought I could type in the lower window that shows the text of the selected command, but I can’t. When I tried to select the top window to see I could type in there I found that any click selects the command under the mouse, closes the window, and puts the command in the REPL
21:56	craigglennie	cfleming: So the typing only works if it’s the first thing you do after the search window is opened, I think
21:56	craigglennie	cfleming: But that’ll work
21:57	cfleming	craigglennie: What else might you have done after the window is opened?
21:57	cfleming	craigglennie: Click on an element or something?
21:57	craigglennie	Well the bottom half of the window looks like a text input field
21:57	craigglennie	So I clicked on it
21:58	craigglennie	cfleming: And then I can no longer search by typing - key strokes do nothing
21:58	cfleming	craigglennie: I see, you're right - that does seem to be broken.
21:58	craigglennie	cfleming: So I need to close that search and re-open it
21:58	cfleming	craigglennie: Thanks, I'll fix that.
21:58	craigglennie	cfleming: Awesome, thanks for the help
21:59	craigglennie	cfleming: Also, I really like Cursive
22:00	cfleming	craigglennie: No worries - I filed this so I don't forget about it: https://github.com/cursiveclojure/cursive/issues/664
22:00	cfleming	craigglennie: Thanks, glad you're enjoying it!
22:02	nullptr	(inc cfleming)
22:02	lazybot	⇒ 5
22:05	akkad	joy of clojure has arrived :P
22:12	jay449	clojure noob here. i am wring my first web app in it using compojure, etc. lotsa fun. however, one big problem: my upload bandwidth is not too good. and "lein ring uberjar" makes a roughly 40mb jar. is there a way to produce a smaller bundle when i make a small change? uploading 40mb jars to a real test server gets too much. current best solution: build from code on test server. haven't implemented that yet... was wo
22:12	jay449	ndering if there is a better solution.
22:25	fairuz	When developing I think you don't need each time to generate a jar
22:25	fairuz	I use liberator + compojure + ring, and just doing (go) in the repl will start my web server. Any modification after that, I just need to do (reset)
22:34	jay449	fairuz: thanks
22:34	jay449	i use the repl too for local testing
22:34	jay449	however, i still deploy 4-5 times a day to the real server to do some manual testing
22:35	jay449	each deploy takes me like 3+ minutes on my connection
22:37	jswanson_	jay449: i would just install lein on the server
22:37	felixflores	hi all :)
22:37	jay449	haha, ok, that seems like what i was thinking
22:47	sm0ke	,(with-out-str (print "123"))
22:47	clojurebot	"123"
22:47	sm0ke	,(with-out-str (.print System/out "123"))
22:47	clojurebot	""
22:48	sm0ke	any way to capture a System.out.println to a string?
22:53	sm0ke	i thought print just wraps System.out.print
22:54	sm0ke	but it does not seems to be true
22:54	gfredericks	sm0ke: I think technically you can redefine System/out
22:55	sm0ke	gfredericks: yes but i want to call a external api fucntion which prints uing System.out
22:56	gfredericks	so if you redefine it...you might be able to capture it?
22:56	gfredericks	not sure what I'm missing
22:56	sm0ke	,(macroexpand-1 (with-out-str (.print System/out "123")))
22:56	clojurebot	""
22:57	gfredericks	with-out-str uses out
22:57	sm0ke	,(macroexpand-1 '(with-out-str (.print System/out "123")))
22:57	clojurebot	(clojure.core/let [s__4979__auto__ (new java.io.StringWriter)] (clojure.core/binding [clojure.core/out s__4979__auto__] (.print System/out "123") (clojure.core/str s__4979__auto__)))
22:57	sm0ke	is ##clojure.core/out ; not System/out
22:58	gfredericks	I know
22:58	gfredericks	I'm suggesting changing System/out itself
22:59	gfredericks	(.setOut System ...)
22:59	sm0ke	gfredericks: wouldnt that be a global setting?
22:59	gfredericks	yes; this is the best you can do
22:59	gfredericks	afaik
22:59	sm0ke	weird
22:59	gfredericks	~java
22:59	clojurebot	☕
23:00	sm0ke	too hot to handle
23:00	gfredericks	~java
23:00	clojurebot	java is a mutable basket case
23:01	gfredericks	~java
23:01	clojurebot	java is a mutable basket case
23:01	echo-area	Why is it responding differently
23:01	echo-area	~java
23:01	clojurebot	☕
23:01	echo-area	~java
23:01	clojurebot	java is a mutable basket case
23:01	sm0ke	clojurebot: java is nuts
23:01	clojurebot	excusez-moi
23:01	sm0ke	clojurebot: java \|is\| nuts
23:01	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
23:01	sm0ke	~java
23:01	echo-area	Everyone only gets one chance, and I have used it up :'(
23:01	clojurebot	java is a mutable basket case
23:02	sm0ke	~java
23:02	clojurebot	java is nuts
23:02	echo-area	~java
23:02	clojurebot	☕
23:02	echo-area	Hah, it's back
23:02	Jaood	~scala
23:02	clojurebot	scala is a good way to make people hate functional programming
23:02	Jaood	~haskell
23:02	clojurebot	"you have to see features like that in the context of Haskell's community, which is something like Perl's community in the garden of Eden: detached from all shame or need to do any work." -- ayrnieu
23:03	echo-area	~common lisp
23:03	clojurebot	common lisp is howl's moving castle
23:03	Jaood	~javascript
23:03	clojurebot	javascript is beautiful, you're just too conformist to appreciate its quirks: http://tinyurl.com/7j3k86p
23:03	michel_slm	~haskell
23:03	clojurebot	haskell is Yo dawg, I heard you like Haskell, so I put a lazy thunk inside a lazy thunk so you don't have to compute while you don't compute.
23:04	michel_slm	~elixir
23:04	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
23:04	michel_slm	~elixir
23:04	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
23:04	michel_slm	~erlang
23:04	clojurebot	http://www.unlimitednovelty.com/2011/07/trouble-with-erlang-or-erlang-is-ghetto.html
23:04	michel_slm	someone needs to teach clojurebot some new languages ;)
23:04	michel_slm	~lua
23:04	clojurebot	Huh?
23:05	michel_slm	~swift
23:05	clojurebot	excusez-moi
23:05	sm0ke	clojurebot: scala \|is\| object oriented, imperative, functional, and twenty other thing you can think of
23:05	clojurebot	c'est bon!
23:05	michel_slm	~scheme
23:05	clojurebot	scheme is Scheme is like a ball of snow. You can add any amount of snow to it and it still looks like snow. Moreover, snow is cleaner than mud.
23:05	michel_slm	~ocaml
23:05	clojurebot	Pardon?
23:05	Jaood	~emacs
23:05	clojurebot	emacs is a nice operating system if it only had a decent editor
23:05	michel_slm	~ml
23:05	clojurebot	Excuse me?
23:05	michel_slm	~vi
23:06	Jaood	~clojure
23:06	clojurebot	clojure is for robots
23:06	michel_slm	~clojurescript
23:07	michel_slm	hmm, seems like I'm rate-limited
23:07	Jaood	~taco bell
23:07	clojurebot	Pardon?
23:12	dkoontz	is anyone here familar with how to use Clojure interop to run a static Java method and then launch that using lein run, I keep getting errors like "Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoSuchFieldException: main" when I try to do something like (MyJavaClass/main) from my clojure -main function
23:14	sm0ke	(MyJavaClass/main (into-array String []))
23:14	sm0ke	^^ dkoontz
23:15	dkoontz	interesting, does Clojure fail to find main because it's looking for a main that takes 0 args?
23:15	sm0ke	yep
23:16	arrdem	well... Java would fail if you made that same method invocation so why should we work?
23:16	arrdem	adding implicit empty sequences would be... weird
23:16	sm0ke	totally
23:16	arrdem	adding implicit nils would be friggin evil
23:16	sm0ke	but its weird to write (MyJavaClass/main (into-array String [])) this as well
23:17	dkoontz	hrm, I was thinking args was a params in Java
23:17	dkoontz	I guess it's not
23:17	dkoontz	been too long in C# haha
23:17	sm0ke	i would ideally love a cleaner syntax for Java's ... args calling from clojure
23:17	arrdem	(->> [] (into-array String) MyJavaClass/main)
23:17	dkoontz	yeah it makes sense to not resolve without the array
23:17	arrdem	&(class (into-array String []))
23:17	lazybot	⇒ [Ljava.lang.String;
23:18	dkoontz	lazybot: I did try type hinting with that exact type and passing a vector, that didn't work
23:18	arrdem	&(instance? (class (into-array String [])) nil)
23:18	lazybot	⇒ false
23:18	arrdem	damnit
23:18	sm0ke	arrdem: do you know if there is an additional copilation artifact to Java's func(Object... objs) ?
23:19	arrdem	sm0ke: not offhand
23:19	sm0ke	if yes clojure could turn them into varargs?
23:19	sm0ke	like [& objs]
23:20	arrdem	I would need to look at some JVM bytecode and think about that for a while
23:20	arrdem	IIRC Object... objs is passed as Ljava.lang.Object
23:20	arrdem	as are Clojure Varargs
23:20	arrdem	so... maybe?
23:20	arrdem	but not "trivially" that I can imagine.
23:21	arrdem	thoughts on adding hosted articles to Grimoire 0.4 or should I just be linking out to clojure-docs as an article store?
23:30	sm0ke	i think i should use grimoire more. looks great
23:31	arrdem	eh it's actually kinda broken ATM because I'm changing the way I store data
23:32	arrdem	all the edit links are fucked
23:32	arrdem	hopefully over Christmas I'll be able to get it up to the ClojureDocs living document standard
23:32	sm0ke	arrdem: whats with the 3000 port?
23:33	gfredericks	(* 2 2 2 3 5 5 5)
23:33	clojurebot	suffusion of yellow
23:33	gfredericks	,(* 2 2 2 3 5 5 5)
23:33	clojurebot	3000
23:33	arrdem	sm0ke: hum? oh why is the real server on 3000? because I originally ran Grim on the same server as my blog, so both ran on not 80 and nginx dealt with it
23:34	arrdem	sm0ke: when Grim moved to its own server I just kept 3000 because I'm a lazy bugger
23:47	dkoontz	ok, another probably dumb question, I have an app I can run with lein run that uses local jars that I include using :resource-paths in my project.clj. When I lein uberjar, the manifest doesn't include those jar files. Is there a config option to cause that to happen?
23:51	sm0ke	dkoontz: you can install them locally into your maven repo and add them as normal deps
23:52	sm0ke	http://maven.apache.org/guides/mini/guide-3rd-party-jars-local.html