#clojure – 2014-12-02

2014-12-02

02:02	schrotti	greetings
02:04	schrotti	i'd like to perform thread-safe memcached operations with spyglass, thus want to ask if the following approach leads to this: get the data to be worked on from memcached and reference it with a ref, perform all the work synchronous on the ref and write the final ref value back to memcached
02:05	schrotti	want to write it as idomatic as possible, thur avoiding explicit locking, that would allow me to perform i/o operations in the locked section
02:08	andyf	schrotti: By thread-safe you mean you want to read one or more values from memcached, calculate modified values, and write back the modified values, and be guaranteed that no other thread in the same JVM process can read any of those same values while you have them ?checked out'?
02:08	andyf	And you plan on there being at most one JVM process, but perhaps many threads in that JVM process?
02:10	lain1	Hello. I'm trying to use quil fun-mode to write a simple game. key-pressed is [old-state event] -> new-state and I can get the key that was pressed out of the event. However key-released is just old-state -> new-state so I'm confused how I'm supposed to know which key was released. Anyone have experience with quil?
02:12	schrotti	andyf: correct
02:15	andyf	schrotti: I don?t know if there is a way to do that. memcached seems to have little or nothing in the way of multi-key atomic operations
02:16	lain1	Hmm, looks like there's a (raw-key) function which gets the most recently pressed or released key. Bit clunkier than getting it as a parameter but I'll use that. O well
02:18	schrotti	andyf: yea i know, in a python implementation of the api i set a lock-key in memcached to tell other jvm process (different hosts) this one is being worked on, which actually also should be sufficient for thread within on process on the same jvm
02:18	schrotti	but within python i locked that critical sections within the code too
02:21	schrotti	now it seems there's still the time between setting the lock-key in memcache, getting the data i want to fiddle with and ref it.
02:23	andyf	schrotti: If there is only one JVM process, why do you need the data in memcached?
02:23	andyf	So the data is still there if the JVM process dies?
02:24	schrotti	andyf: there will be multiple jvm processes at some point in time
02:24	schrotti	want to use memcache for session data
02:25	andyf	So you need a way to prevent multiple JVM processes from accessing overlapping sets of key/value pairs in memcached in parallel? I don't think refs in one JVM process can help you there.
02:26	schrotti	andyf: thats why i write a key to memcache, that tells the other processes that a certain key is currently being worked on
02:28	andyf	schrotti: Using a memcached cas operation? I don't think normal get/set operations on single keys will prevent races there.
02:29	dysfun	sound like you need a distributed lock mechanism (like redcache, but for memcached) or redis (which supports limited transactionality)
02:29	dysfun	s/redcache/redlock/
02:31	schrotti	andyf, dysfun thanks for the input i take a look at them
02:32	andyf	schrotti: Example of race for a simple try at using a special key value as a makeshift lock: Every process tries to write to key "global_lock" with a value equal to the name of the keys they want to work on atomically. Process 1 reads "global_lock" and sees it is empty. Then process 2 does. Process 1 writes "global_lock" the set of keys "a, b, c" that it wants access to. Then process 2 does.
02:33	andyf	Neither has any way to look at the memcached contents and tell that it isn't the only one.
02:33	andyf	You could run something like Baker's mutual exclusions algorithm on top of memcached, but there must be a better way.
02:34	dysfun	i suspect redlock relies on redis transactions
02:34	dysfun	but it's been a while since i poked at redis
02:35	dysfun	i'm sure it's findable with enough googling
02:35	andyf	If you want transactions, it seems best to use a database that provides them.
02:36	dysfun	i think some projects don't have the option of choosing postgres
02:37	schrotti	i could use postgres for it
02:38	dysfun	but it's session data, right?
02:38	schrotti	but trying to get away from due to future demands and also just using it to store session data later is kind of overkill
02:39	andyf	dysfun: Why do you say that about postgres? You mentioned transactions being available in redis, so that statement confuses me.
02:39	dysfun	okay, start again. stop talking about building your implementation and start talking about what you want to achieve :)
02:40	dysfun	andyf: redis transactions are fun. we use redlock for many operations. if you want real transactions, you use something with real transactions
02:40	schrotti	dysfun: session handling for a distributed service
02:41	schrotti	andyf: and about your example i could use the memcache add function, that only adds a key if it doesn't already exists
02:41	schrotti	but theres still network delay
02:41	dysfun	but it returns a value to indicate whether it added the key?
02:42	schrotti	yes it'll return true or false respectively
02:42	dysfun	well, that's your mutex then
02:43	dysfun	(if (set-lock-key!) ... (show-error))
02:44	andyf	as long as memcached doesn't age out that mutex
02:45	andyf	dysfun: I've not used redis for transactions. When you say they are fun, do you mean they don't really work as transactions in some way? Or that they are inconvenient to use for some kinds of transactions?
02:46	dysfun	andyf: you know how clojure STM works? redis does a similar thing. except without automatic retry. you'll be wanting carmine to help with that
02:55	schrotti	(dotimes [i 10] (future (while (false? @(mc/add mc-client "lock" 5 i))) (let [r (mc/get mc-client "test") new (inc r)] (mc/set mc-client "test" (* 60 60 24) new) (mc/delete mc-client "lock"))))
02:56	schrotti	that works
02:57	andyf	schrotti: Unless "lock" is ever aged out of the cache, but perhaps you can prevent that from happening.
02:58	schrotti	andyf: the lock needs to age out, what if the thread fails at some point and doesn't release the global lock?
02:58	schrotti	all the other processes, threads would deadlock in this case
02:58	andyf	What if it ages out when the process still thinks it has the lock?
02:58	schrotti	andyf: true
02:59	andyf	Again, there may be ways to prevent that, but they probably rely on limiting how long a process can hold the lock, in real-time
02:59	schrotti	that's why it only performs as less operations as possible
02:59	andyf	Just please don't make someone lose property or other valuables if it doesn't work :)
03:00	schrotti	hehe
03:00	andyf	I'm assuming we aren't talking about human lives or health.
03:01	andyf	If it's just "ah, someone may have to reload their browser window when this fails", all kinds of hacks have been done.
03:02	schrotti	andyf: it certainly is for health related sensor data
03:02	andyf	then I'm scared you are asking these questions.
03:04	schrotti	andyf: everyone starts somewhere, been only 1 year in the coporate world, and because it's about health data, i want to do the best
03:04	schrotti	that's why i reimplenting the api, that i wrote previously in python, which is a mess because it was the first rest-api i ever wrote in python. trying to learn from mistakes
03:04	andyf	I don't mean you should not ask questions. I mean, I hope all of this design goes through review of people who know the failure modes of transactional systems before it becomes part of a product, and they suggest something else.
03:05	andyf	failure modes of someone trying to implement transactions, but incorrectly, I mean.
03:05	schrotti	andyf: unfortunately that won't happen :/. that's why i have to do my best.
03:06	schrotti	and in this case it is the session handling for a mobile client
03:06	andyf	so what happens if some of this health related sensor data is reported incorrectly?
03:06	schrotti	thus it does not interfere with the critical point of sending or receiving data
03:07	andyf	I mean, if this code doesn't implement locking correctly, are we saying they have to hit reload on a mobile client and delay getting the correct data, or does it mean they get incorrect data?
03:08	schrotti	it means they would have to reload/relogin on the mobile client, thus possibly receiving data delayed
03:08	andyf	It wouldn't ever happen that someone accidentally gets data from a different session, for example?
03:09	schrotti	andyf: nope
03:10	andyf	I do hope that is true, but if you do not see the failure modes of your example code above, how did you reach the conclusion that only delay of correct data is possible?
03:10	dreamPilot	hey any CLJS people here ?
03:12	schrotti	andyf: if the client didn't receive a session token i due time, that it can use to get the data, it can retry this operation. there's is no specific/critical health data related to any session.
03:13	schrotti	the session is just a means of validating a given user and password for a mobile client, that uses the token to ask for data
03:14	schrotti	and because the lock expires after a couple of seconds, the client will be able to aquire a session at some point
03:15	schrotti	but it does not interfere with receiving any critical data
03:16	andyf	Sorry if I'm not being more helpful -- I would if I had more experience with what you are working on. Perhaps someone else will read this and join in or contact you.
03:17	schrotti	andyf: that's totally fine, you already provided me with valuable thoughts for the brain
03:17	schrotti	+enough
03:23	Empperi	is there any kind of less css support for clojure as a library, not a leiningen plugin?
03:23	Empperi	I'd love to use garden but our web designer guys don't really want or have time to learn clojure so it's not an option
03:24	Empperi	we can live with precompiled less css which is then saved as .css file and pushed to git, but really would like not to do it
03:25	Empperi	so an optimal solution for us would be a garden like library but which preprocesses less files
03:26	schrotti	andyf: if you're interested -> http://neopythonic.blogspot.tw/2011/08/compare-and-set-in-memcache.html this one provides an example on how to avoid deadlocks and race conditions. and also by limiting the amount of retries, a thread/process performs to acquire the lock.
03:26	kenrestivo	Empperi: there's a lein-less but i haven't used it
03:26	kenrestivo	http://crossclj.info/ns/lein-less/latest/project.clj.html
03:27	Empperi	yeah, but that's just a npm wrapper which compiles less files to css
03:27	Empperi	so not really what I asked for
03:27	Empperi	I don't want to generate that css into disc
03:27	Empperi	I just want to serve it
03:28	Empperi	so in development mode the css is generated everytime from scratch when it is requested and in production mode the generated css would be cached
03:28	Empperi	I've done less compiler wrappers in java and I could do that in Clojure too but don't feel like it right now if there is an existing solution out there
03:32	SagiCZ1	why cant case have default value?
03:33	SagiCZ1	,(case 1 0 "yes" :default "no")
03:33	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching clause: 1>
03:34	andyf	SagiCZ1: It can have a default: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure.core/case Leave out :default
03:34	SagiCZ1	,(case 1 0 "yes" "no")
03:34	clojurebot	"no"
03:34	Empperi	,(case 0 "yes" :default "no")
03:34	clojurebot	"no"
03:34	SagiCZ1	andyf: thank you
03:35	SagiCZ1	Empperi: i think that is wrong
03:35	Empperi	yes I realized that myself too :)
03:35	Empperi	been sleeping way too little lately
03:35	SagiCZ1	np
03:35	Empperi	8 week old baby at home, need I say more...
03:36	SagiCZ1	congratulations
03:36	Empperi	thanks
03:36	schrotti	Empperi: congrats
03:36	Empperi	thanks
03:36	schrotti	mine could come anytime now ^^
03:36	Empperi	,(repeatedly "thanks")
03:36	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
03:36	TEttinger	Empperi, baby bjorne, have a baby be a fashion statement
03:36	SagiCZ1	not that making babies is particularly hard
03:36	Empperi	crap, too little sleep :D
03:36	Empperi	,(constantly "thanks")
03:36	clojurebot	#<core$constantly$fn__4346 clojure.core$constantly$fn__4346@1e7d0fe>
03:36	TEttinger	,(repeat 10 "you're welcome")
03:36	clojurebot	("you're welcome" "you're welcome" "you're welcome" "you're welcome" "you're welcome" ...)
03:37	andyf	SagiCZ1: For males it isn't -- I would recommend not making such a statement to a female :)
03:37	SagiCZ1	haha true that
03:38	ddellacosta	anyone know how to do an "update ... returning" using clojure.java.jdbc?
03:38	ddellacosta	seancorfield: ping
03:47	ddellacosta	folks, what does fn* do?
03:50	andyf	ddellacosta: It is the guts of the implementation underlying clojure.core/fn
03:50	andyf	Like the macro clojure.core/fn, but without many of the options
03:51	ddellacosta	andyf: thanks. I'm struggling to understand what it is doing all over c.j.j, for example here: https://github.com/clojure/java.jdbc/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/java/jdbc.clj#L695
03:51	ddellacosta	looks like it's consistently getting called w/metadata {:once true} but not sure what that means
03:52	ddellacosta	I find this codebase quite confusing, I feel like it uses a very specific style which I haven't seen elsewhere
03:53	andyf	In that particular case, it is defining a function that is bound to symbol exec-and-return-keys, which is later called inside of with-db-transaction.
03:53	ddellacosta	andyf: that much I get--I just don't understand why it is used at all. What does {:once true} do?
03:53	andyf	{:once true} has something to do with allowing the function to clear local variables after use, I think. In any case it is a time and/or memory optimization that shouldn't affect correct operation unless you are holding on to the head of a large sequence.
03:54	ddellacosta	andyf: I see, thanks for the explanation
03:54	ddellacosta	yeah, it would make sense if most of the arcana in this lib is optimization stuff
04:02	SagiCZ1	how do i make a list from map keys and vals? {:a 0 :b 2} --> (:a 0 :b 2)
04:04	SagiCZ1	,(zipmap {:a 0 :b 2})
04:04	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core/zipmap>
04:05	SagiCZ1	,(flatten {:a 0 :b 2})
04:05	clojurebot	()
04:10	andyf	ddellacosta: Relevant Google group thread: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/clojure/malloy$20once/clojure/Ys3kEz5c_eE/3St2AbIc3zMJ
04:10	SagiCZ1	andyf, sorry to bother you but do you have any idea how to achieve what i asked for?
04:10	ddellacosta	andyf: thanks so much!
04:11	ddellacosta	very helpful
04:11	andyf	SagiCZ1: I think (interleave (keys m) (vals m)) may be correct
04:12	SagiCZ1	andyf: perfect, thank you!
04:12	SagiCZ1	(inc andyf)
04:20	andyf	maybe more cryptic: (mapcat identity m)
04:23	hellofun`	andyf did you say core/fn was a macro??
04:23	hellofunk	maybe i misread
04:23	andyf	yes, it is.
04:24	cfleming	hellofunk: Yes, it is
04:24	hellofunk	andyf officially isn't it a special form?
04:24	cfleming	Along with defn, let, and many others.
04:24	andyf	clojure.core/fn is a macro implemented with defmacro. It expands to a special form fn*
04:25	andyf	Not all, but many things that you often think of as special forms actually are implemented as macros
04:25	hellofunk	interesting. the (doc fn) just says it is a special form. usually the doc shows if something is a macro
04:25	andyf	let -> let*
04:25	cfleming	reify -> reify, deftype -> deftype
04:25	andyf	Try (source fn)
04:25	cfleming	The * forms are actually interpreted by the compiler.
04:25	cfleming	Well, compiled is perhaps a better word.
04:26	hellofunk	well that is quite interesting.
04:26	hellofunk	listen, andyf, i would like to thank you. thank you most earnestly for brining this matter to my imminent attention
04:26	cfleming	,(macroexpand '(fn [x] x))
04:26	clojurebot	(fn* ([x] x))
04:27	cfleming	,(macroexpand '(let [a :a] a))
04:27	clojurebot	(let* [a :a] a)
04:27	andyf	If you'd like a complete list of things that are 'really special':
04:28	andyf	,(keys clojure.lang.Compiler/specials)
04:28	clojurebot	(& monitor-exit case* try reify* ...)
04:28	hellofunk	andyf i already know that list
04:28	hellofunk	Wall-E, blueberries, Belgian beer. those are the things that are "really special"
04:45	kral	namaste
04:47	TEttinger	,(rand-nth ["Hey" "Yo" "Hi!" "Hola"])
04:47	clojurebot	"Hola"
04:47	clgv	:P
05:04	schmir	I'd like to automatically coerce a joda localdate object to an sqldate in clojure.java.jdbc. is that possible?
05:09	klokbaske	Hey! Any ring users here?
05:09	andyf	~anyone
05:09	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
05:10	klokbaske	I'm trying to find my stacktrace when ring returns an error 500
05:10	klokbaske	But it's seemingly nowhere to be found
05:11	weavejester	Do you have anything to catch the exception, e.g. Cider, or to display the stacktrace, e.g. wrap-stacktrace?
05:12	klokbaske	I have cider running, and I've added wrap-stacktrace
05:13	klokbaske	I've checked various buffers in emacs but nothing there either
05:14	roderyk	Could someone explain what I'm doing wrong with this snippet of core.async [cljs]? The browser is giving me a most unhelpful message: http://pastebin.com/H6G1dNs5
05:19	weavejester	klokbaske: Which version of Ring are you running?
05:19	klokbaske	1.3.1
05:21	klokbaske	weavejester: 1.3.1
05:23	weavejester	klokbaske: Okay, so wrap-stacktrace will catch any Throwable... What does the webpage/command line look like when the error occurs?
05:23	weavejester	Are you running it locally?
05:24	klokbaske	weavejester: yes I'm running locally. Nothing in the commandline. I'm just doing a curl, and I only get a header with a code 500
05:24	weavejester	klokbaske: Is wrap-stacktrace the last middleware you use?
05:25	klokbaske	weavejester: yes, last one.
05:26	weavejester	klokbaske: That should catch any throwable then, and even if it didn't, you should see at least the exception printed.
05:26	weavejester	klokbaske: Which adapter are you using?
05:26	Kneiva	schmir: I think you can get java.util.Date from LocalDate. Can that be used to create clojure.java.jdbc.sqldate?
05:26	klokbaske	weavejester: I'm using jetty
05:27	weavejester	roderyk: I can't see anything wrong with that, unless you're missing a require somewhere?
05:27	weavejester	klokbaske: Okay... that's odd. Jetty's usually pretty good about reporting errors.
05:28	weavejester	klokbaske: I think I'd need to see your project. I can't think of any reason why you wouldn't be seeing an error.
05:28	weavejester	klokbaske: Unless your code is returning an empty 500 response explicitly.
05:29	klokbaske	Nope, it's not. I have a homemade handler that cannot seem to handle a list, but does handle a map. I wonder if my handler swallows the error
05:29	klokbaske	I think I'll try disabling it.
05:30	schmir	Kneiva: sure. but I was hoping for an automatic conversion.
05:40	triss	hey all. I'm following this heroku/clojure tutorial. everything goes well until i set up the postgresql server on this page: https://devcenter.heroku.com/articles/getting-started-with-clojure#provision-a-database
05:41	triss	i get this error upon running the code:
05:41	triss	org.postgresql.util.PSQLException: Can't infer the SQL type to use for an instance of clojure.lang.Keyword. Use setObject() with an explicit Types
05:41	triss	value to specify the type to use.
05:41	hellofunk	if i want a recursive fn in a let binding, does it recur on the let var name, or on a name defined in the fn itself? i.e. (let [a (fn b [] .. (b ..))]) -- is that (b ..) correct or would (a ..) suffice?
05:42	roderyk	weavejester: thanks; was accidentally using an old version of core.async
05:42	triss	does anyone know how to set the type of data? I presume I need to tell postgresql to expect a string or specify to clojure what typ the thing is its recording.
05:45	clgv	hellofunk: you can just use `recur`
05:46	clgv	hellofunk: or did you mean non-tail recursive?
05:47	clgv	hellofunk: non-tail recursive #(let [a (fn b [x, s] (if (pos? n) (b (dec n)) (recur (dec n) (* n s)))] (a 5 1))
05:47	hellofunk	clgv recur would work in my case. but suppose it is not tail recursive? i always get confused which name a fn in a let refers to -- the name given to fn or the name assigned in let
05:47	clgv	,(let [a (fn b [x, s] (if (pos? n) (b (dec n)) (recur (dec n) (* n s)))] (a 5 1))
05:47	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: ]>
05:48	vijaykiran	triss: Can't you use type hints ? ^String etc. ?
05:48	clgv	,(let [a (fn b [x, s] (if (pos? n) (b (dec n), (* n s)) s)] (a 5 1))
05:48	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: ]>
05:48	clgv	,(let [a (fn b [x, s] (if (pos? n) (b (dec n), (* n s)) s))] (a 5 1))
05:48	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: n in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
05:48	vijaykiran	triss: http://clojure.org/java_interop#Java%20Interop-Type%20Hints
05:48	clgv	,(let [a (fn b [x, s] (if (pos? x) (b (dec x), (* x s)) s))] (a 5 1))
05:48	clojurebot	120
05:49	clgv	hellofunk: `a` is not bound to the function while the function is defined
05:49	hellofunk	clgv ok so inside the fn, the name of "a" is not used
05:49	hellofunk	got it
05:49	clgv	hellofunk: yeah, it either is not bound at all or bound to a previous value in the lexical scope
05:53	hyPiRion	Assume I have the syntax-quoted form `(let [f# foo g# baz] (bar f# (expr-with g#))), but bar is a macro I want to expand at syntax-quote time. What's the best way to handle this?
05:55	daniel__	trying emacs again with evil-mode, cider, clojure-mode
05:55	daniel__	.clj keep opening in fundamental mode, so no syntax highlighting
05:57	vijaykiran	daniel__: did you get it to work ? or is that a question ?
05:57	daniel__	https://github.com/danielstockton/dotfiles/blob/master/emacs
05:57	daniel__	its a question
05:57	vijaykiran	okay - you might need a hook
05:58	vijaykiran	daniel__: similar to line 35
05:58	daniel__	can't find anything like that mentioned in any of the package docs
05:59	triss	vijaykiran... unfortunately that didn't work
05:59	triss	I specified a type hint for the record function
06:00	vijaykiran	daniel__: the automode is in clojure-mode
06:01	vijaykiran	daniel__: try adding a require ? perhaps the clojure-mode isn't auto-loaded in your setting
06:01	daniel__	vijaykiran: that worked
06:01	daniel__	cheers
06:03	hellofunk	hyPiRion interesting, you are saying you want it to expand, and then a additional expansion after it expands, due to the macro. is that not what happens?
06:09	hyPiRion	hellofunk: it happens, but I need to print the form out, then read it back in in a different environment
06:09	hyPiRion	which doesn't have the same namespaces available
06:11	hyPiRion	I found out that it wasn't sufficient to solve my problem anyway, so I'll have to handle this differently.
06:21	martinklepsch	how can I create a string like "\/some\/uri.html"?
06:21	martinklepsch	,(str "\/some\/uri.html")
06:21	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unsupported escape character: \/>
06:21	martinklepsch	,(str "\\/some\\/uri.html")
06:21	clojurebot	"\\/some\\/uri.html"
06:22	martinklepsch	I render this through chesire's generate string and it turns up in the result with two backslashes per slash
06:30	clgv	hyPiRion: at syntax quote time? can you give an example what that would do?
06:31	clgv	martinklepsch: print it and you see the actual characters
06:32	martinklepsch	clgv: that's what I thought too but when I pass it to chesire I still end up with two backslashes even though println shows only one
06:32	clgv	martinklepsch: backslashes are used to escape special characters like newline "\n" but hence backslash itself needs to be escaped
06:32	martinklepsch	clgv: data.json has an option for this, I'll try this now
06:33	clgv	martinklepsch: maybe it is using `pr` instead of `print` ?
06:33	TEttinger	,(pr "\\/some\\/uri.html")
06:33	clojurebot	"\\/some\\/uri.html"
06:34	TEttinger	,(print "\\/some\\/uri.html")
06:34	clojurebot	\/some\/uri.html
06:34	TEttinger	pr is so it can be consumed by clojure, as if in source
06:34	martinklepsch	clgv: could be
06:35	hellofunk	how do you check if something is an atom, such as + :a varname, etc? I was looking for atom? but it's not there. I could check if something is not a collection like (not (coll? ..)) but that seems verbose
06:35	clgv	,atom?
06:35	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: atom? in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
06:35	clgv	,(instance? clojure.lang.Atom (atom 0))
06:35	clojurebot	true
06:36	hellofunk	clgv that is equally verbose. shouldn't have to query the implementation's class name
06:36	hellofunk	by the way, by atom I am not referring to a reference type, rather a classic lisp atom. symbol? seemed close, but it doesn't cover everything of course
06:37	hellofunk	is this the only way? (defn my-atom? [a] (not (coll? a)))
06:37	clgv	hellofunk: oh you can just ask whether it is not one of the collection types
06:39	clgv	hellofunk: since there might be arbitrary many collection and atom classes - this predicate is impossible to write. would be different if all the collections share a common interface.
06:39	hellofunk	makes sense
06:39	clgv	hellofunk: so for clojure data you might be able to write that predicate for given clojure version
06:40	clgv	hellofunk: you could also first detect the non-atoms you are interested and everything else is classified as atom - depends on your use cases whether this is appropriate
06:40	hellofunk	sure
06:41	hellofunk	i think common lisp has something like atom? which is what i was looking for. no bid deal.
06:43	clgv	hellofunk: it is probably easier over there since all collections are based on lists
06:43	clgv	so non-list is atom
06:46	hyPiRion	clgv: I want something that can transform `(let [f# 1] (.. f# toString hashCode)) into '(clojure.core/let [f__1 1] (. (. f__1 toString) hashCode))
06:46	hyPiRion	That only expands "..", in this case
06:48	CookedGryphon	Does anybody have any suggestions for how to test core.async with timeouts?
06:49	CookedGryphon	I want to set the test up to say behave as if these events came in and then this timeout fired etc
06:49	CookedGryphon	obviously without actually waiting for the timeout to fire
06:49	clgv	hyPiRion: just tried that syntax quote. is the problem that `toString` and `hashCode` get a namespace prefix?
06:50	clgv	hyPiRion: or do you need the "expanded name" of the gensym?
06:55	clgv	ah. selective expansion
06:55	clgv	hyPiRion: you could do that with zach tellmans walking lib?
06:55	clgv	hyPiRion: riddley
06:57	clgv	hyPiRion: if I remember correctly you can also manipulate tools.macro's macroexpand-all to not expand given forms.
06:58	clgv	hyPiRion: it has an internal machanism therefore but does not provide an option to initialize its data from the macroexpand functions
07:03	hyPiRion	clgv: I know about it, just wondered if there was an easy way out
07:03	hyPiRion	figured out a better solution in the end either way
07:03	clgv	ok. what did you do?
07:06	hyPiRion	I avoided the problem altogether :)
07:10	clgv	:)
07:37	noncom	have anyone tried clojure monger lib? i want to update an existing document, adding fields to it.. the only way i have found is to 1) download the document, 2) merge it on my side, upload the merged doc
07:37	noncom	is there any way to perform the merge on the db side ?
07:38	noncom	the (update) functions seems like it should be able to do that, but i am not sure how to make it work.. currently it simply replaces the document
07:47	vijaykiran	noncom: is monger.collection/update what you are using ?
07:47	noncom	vijaykiran: yes, this is it
07:47	vijaykiran	noncom: can you gist the code that isn't working?
07:48	noncom	here: https://www.refheap.com/94284
07:49	noncom	see, if i do not first fetch an existing document, then merge it with data manually, then it will simply replace the doc in the db
07:49	noncom	so i have to manuall y merge the maps
07:49	vijaykiran	1 min
07:49	noncom	i have tried playing with the :upsert param but it does not change much..
07:49	noncom	ok
07:49	vijaykiran	why are you using :upsert ?
07:50	vijaykiran	ah, okay :)
07:50	noncom	:)
07:51	edw	,(+)
07:51	clojurebot	0
07:51	clgv	,(*)
07:51	clojurebot	1
07:51	noncom	,(-)
07:51	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core/->
07:51	noncom	:(
07:52	clgv	haha
07:52	noncom	booom! )
07:52	hyPiRion	- is not a monoid
07:52	hyPiRion	,(->)
07:52	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core/->>
07:52	hyPiRion	,(->>)
07:52	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core/->>>
07:52	noncom	heeh
07:53	noncom	,(<)
07:53	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core/<>
07:53	clgv	hyPiRion: operators are no monids ;)
07:53	noncom	,(bit-and)
07:53	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core/bit-and>
07:53	clgv	+o
07:53	hyPiRion	clgv: this is true
07:53	noncom	is (bit-and) a monoid ?
07:53	noncom	looks like np
07:53	noncom	no
07:54	noncom	,(bit-or)
07:54	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core/bit-or>
07:54	noncom	oh well..
07:54	noncom	ok ok
07:54	clgv	not every function needs a zero arity. ;)
07:55	Deraen	noncom: http://clojuremongodb.info/articles/updating.html#using_set_operator
07:55	hyPiRion	,(apply distinct? []) ; :-(
07:55	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core/distinct?>
07:56	vijaykiran	noncom: I think you need to use $set
07:56	vijaykiran	noncom: just like you do on mongo shell
07:56	vijaykiran	noncom: https://github.com/michaelklishin/monger/blob/master/src/clojure/monger/operators.clj#L116
07:57	clgv	,(distinct [])
07:57	clojurebot	()
07:57	clgv	;)
07:57	hyPiRion	I am still confused about that one.
07:57	clgv	yeah, update-in was pretty bad for empty paths as well
07:58	noncom	Deraen, vijaykiran: oh wow, right! $set does the right thing!
07:58	noncom	(distinct (list))
07:58	noncom	,(distinct (list))
07:58	clojurebot	()
07:58	noncom	,(distinct (vector))
07:58	clojurebot	()
07:59	clgv	distinct is lazy, hence the list like return
07:59	clgv	distinct is a good candidate for a transducer
08:00	noncom	(apply distinct? (list)) cannot operate on that argument because (distinct?) has no meaning over an empty collecion i think
08:01	hyPiRion	Boils down to: Are all elements in an empty collection different?
08:01	hyPiRion	I can verify that no element in an empty collection is equal to another element, but I don't know if that equates to the above.
08:02	noncom	i am sure there is a pocket of math that has already considered this case..
08:03	hyPiRion	From wikipedia: "Two or more things are distinct if no two of them are the same thing."
08:03	clgv	hyPiRion: from a math point of view that shoud evaluate to true
08:03	hyPiRion	which makes (distinct? x) sort-of weird
08:05	noncom	http://www.thefreedictionary.com/distinct
08:05	noncom	meanings 2, 3 and 5 from the first group for the adj are applicable :)
08:06	noncom	meaning 1 is not :D
08:06	clgv	noncom: meaning (1) - every item of the empty list is distinguishable from all the others
08:07	noncom	clgv: how do you know that if you've never ever seen them? :D
08:08	clgv	noncom: that's the point, there is no element in the list, hence that predicate is true
08:08	noncom	well, i can't say more except for that it gives creeps to me :D
08:08	noncom	an empty set is the ultimate true..
08:09	clgv	noncom: not really if your are interested in existence of elements with properties it is false ;)
08:11	noncom	so, anyhow, it turns out that emptiness is the truth..
08:12	noncom	isn't that from buddhism or somewhere.. ?
08:12	clgv	sounds like "zen" ;)
08:13	noncom	so now i am sure all that whole zen or buddhism thing is just a way to experience the groups theory in person
08:17	l3dx	I tried to mash together some of these snippets -> https://github.com/james-henderson/chord but I'm not able to fetch the message from the server. is this because the samples are simplified, or should it be possible without go-loops?
08:24	clgv	l3dx: there is an example project. does that work?
08:25	l3dx	haven't tried it, but it uses go-loop
08:28	l3dx	that's probably what I want though, but as this is my first go at core.async I wanted to take baby steps
08:29	l3dx	combining the client send / server send snippets might not even make sense :)
08:34	clgv	l3dx: well you can consider starting from a working small project as baby steps as well. you can start to alter that project to what you want bit by bit
08:35	l3dx	yeah, sure :)
08:59	puredanger	Bronsa: you around?
09:07	crispin	hi everyone!
09:08	crispin	I have a question: What is the difference between binding and let
09:08	crispin	other then the binding binds the args in parallel, while let does them one at a time
09:08	crispin	other than that... is there any difference?
09:08	crispin	when would I use binding instead of let?
09:10	clgv	crispin: binding is for thread local variables
09:11	clgv	crispin: those named similar to "foo" declared with metada ^:dynamic
09:11	llasram	`binding` binds a new value to an existing Var (usually a top-level persistent thing) for the dynamic, thread-local scope of the `binding` form
09:11	llasram	`let` creates a new local lexical identifier for a value
09:15	stuartsierra	More fundamentally, with `let` only code within the text body of the `let` can see the symbols. With `binding`, the values are visible to any code inside the body of the `binding` AND any functions called from there.
09:16	Bronsa	puredanger: hi
09:17	clgv	crispin: you can use `binding` only with names that can be resolved to existing variables
09:18	noncom\|2	who can explain that:
09:19	noncom\|2	,(def bs (.toBytes "heeeey" "utf-8"))
09:19	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: toBytes for class java.lang.String, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_FILE:0:0)>
09:19	noncom\|2	oops
09:19	noncom\|2	,(def bs (.getBytes "heeeey" "utf-8"))
09:19	clojurebot	#'sandbox/bs
09:19	noncom\|2	(.-length bs)
09:19	noncom\|2	,(.-length bs)
09:19	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: length for class [B>
09:19	noncom\|2	why no matching field ?
09:19	noncom\|2	how to access length ?
09:20	opqdonut	,(alength (.getBytes "heeeeey" "utf-8"))
09:20	clojurebot	7
09:20	opqdonut	,(doc alength)
09:20	clojurebot	"([array]); Returns the length of the Java array. Works on arrays of all types."
09:20	opqdonut	I think count works also
09:20	opqdonut	,(count (.getBytes "heeeeey" "utf-8"))
09:20	clojurebot	7
09:20	opqdonut	but is less efficient
09:24	nonuby	if my clojure 1.6 simple web apps depends on compojure (https://github.com/weavejester/compojure/blob/master/project.clj) and I dont use an :exclusions in project.clj does this mean that both clojure 1.6 and clojure 1.5.1 are loaded and thus nearly double startup time (given jvm alone startup really is neglible nowdays)
09:25	weavejester	nonuby: No, only one version of the package is loaded.
09:25	nonuby	which is the top level one in my web app project.clj?
09:26	weavejester	nonuby: The one that's chosen is the one "closest" to your project file. So anything in your project file will be preferred, then first-level dependencies, then second-level dependencies and so forth.
09:26	nonuby	so you only specify exclusions if you suspect two sibling dependencies at same closest level might be battling over a specific downstream dependencies
09:27	weavejester	nonuby: Right, or if a closer dependency is overriding a newer but further away dependency.
09:32	triss	so lets say i want to write a library for myself and have no intention of putting it on clojars]
09:32	triss	how do i add the library to my dependancies in project.clj if its just a bundle of local files?
09:33	kungi	triss: you can use toolk like apache archiva and create your own maven repository
09:33	kungi	triss: or you can use lein install to install it into your local maven repository and just use it in your project.clj
09:34	triss	ah so lein install means i can then just stick the libs name in my project.clj and get on with things?
09:35	kungi	triss: yes
09:35	triss	splendid...
09:35	kungi	triss: oh yes
09:35	triss	I'll be serving my app up on heroku
09:35	triss	any one know how would i make sure the library makes it up there when i do a git commit?
09:49	hellofunk	amalloy are you around?
09:49	hellofunk	guess not.
09:49	crispin	clgv llasram stuartsierra: thanks. will experiment
09:50	justin_smith	it's very early west coast time right now - he'll likely be awake in a couple of hours
09:51	hellofunk	justin_smith i just realized that. thanks, i forgot what time it is there in u.s.
09:53	puredanger	(inc Bronsa)
09:54	puredanger	lazybot sleeping?
09:55	hyPiRion	~lazybot
09:55	justin_smith	must be knocked offline
09:55	clojurebot	lazybot is a lazybut
09:55	justin_smith	I have a login on that box, but I don't think I have perms to restart it
09:55	FriedBob	You don't get a name like lazybot by doing work.
09:55	puredanger	well anyhow, thanks to Bronsa for knowing too much about how AOT works and explaining it to me
09:57	noncom\|2	i need to publish an existing jar to clojars
09:57	noncom\|2	i have no pom for it
09:57	noncom\|2	can anyone tell me what to do ?
10:02	llasram	noncom\|2: for your .-length q from earlier: the Java `array.length` syntax is Java syntactic sugar for a JVM array-length operation. There's no actual .-length property, which is why that Clojure syntax doesn't work
10:04	llasram	noncom\|2: For deploying an arbitrary jar to Clojars, you can use maven: http://maven.apache.org/guides/mini/guide-3rd-party-jars-remote.html
10:04	llasram	With e.g. https://github.com/ato/clojars-web/wiki/pushing as your destination repo
10:07	noncom\|2	llasram: so the only way to get a correct pom is to use mvn ?
10:08	hyPiRion	noncom\|2: you can make one from lein too, using lein pom. But you'd probably have to use mvn to deploy
10:09	hyPiRion	noncom\|2: A better solution is to ask the original author to publish it.
10:09	noncom\|2	it is actually the dropbox official java drivers
10:10	noncom\|2	they just don't have them on clojars..
10:10	noncom\|2	i fear they won't be quick enough to react also..
10:11	hyPiRion	noncom\|2: https://www.dropbox.com/developers/core/sdks/java ? That one's already deployed
10:11	stuartsierra	http://search.maven.org/#search%7Cga%7C1%7Cdropbox
10:11	stuartsierra	The Maven world is much bigger than Clojars :)
10:11	hyPiRion	[com.dropbox.core/dropbox-core-sdk "1.7"]
10:12	hyPiRion	1.7.7, rather.
10:13	noncom\|2	oh!
10:15	noncom\|2	btw, as a question for the future, can i fetch jars from maven repos other than clojars ?
10:16	noncom\|2	there must be a lein project param for that ?
10:16	kungi	noncom\|2: there is
10:16	noncom\|2	oh ok, then in case of the situation, i will try that too
10:16	kungi	noncom\|2: the :repositories key
10:17	hyPiRion	noncom\|2: maven central is bundled by default, btw
10:17	hyPiRion	Clojure is put there, for example.
10:20	deadghost	I feel dumb typing (in-ns 'project.core) and (in-ns 'project.other-other-ns) all the time
10:21	deadghost	and switching back and forth via typing
10:21	deadghost	is there something more alt-tabish
10:22	llasram	deadghost: your editor integration should provide something
10:22	llasram	deadghost: what are you using?
10:22	deadghost	emacs
10:22	llasram	With CIDER?
10:22	deadghost	yes
10:22	llasram	cider-repl-set-ns, by default bound to C-c M-n
10:27	deadghost	http://i.imgur.com/9fW0xw9.png
10:27	deadghost	whyyyy
10:28	llasram	Because ztellman is hilarious
10:29	Glenjamin	haha
10:36	hyPiRion	obligatory http://aphyr.com/media/context.html
10:37	llasram	Oh is that the ztellmen presentation slide generator?
10:37	hyPiRion	yes
10:38	clgv	hyPiRion: seems not business ready, there are no charts ;)
10:38	tim___	I got "despite our best efforts, optimization is mutable", true dat.
10:39	llasram	"abstraction supercedes essence"
10:39	llasram	I can see how one could argue that
10:40	hyPiRion	"macro is a function monster"
10:44	EvanR	parenthetically, ALEPH => DERRIDA -?> DECOMPLECTION
10:45	EvanR	referential transparency assumes infinite resources, this guy is off putting even without audio
10:47	Glenjamin	you know those are random, right?
10:47	EvanR	the last one is not
10:47	Glenjamin	oh right
10:47	EvanR	this attitude, i think i am beginning to grok, and be able to reproduce in isolation
10:48	Glenjamin	i was fairly sure he said lazy evaluation assumes infinite resources
10:48	EvanR	"dont try to do anything right because startup 1 out of 5234 ended up with way too much workload"
10:48	EvanR	"and failed"
10:49	llasram	EvanR: I think you're missing a lot of context
10:49	EvanR	dont worry about the other startups which just failed for other reasons, and start ups that succeed and do not ever encounter the google-sized problems
10:49	EvanR	llasram: XYZ is contextual, oh no, i forgot to right that one down
10:50	EvanR	its not a presentation without being melodramatic, i think this gets in the way of real world problems (for most problem solvers)
10:51	justin_smith	EvanR: he is explicitly talking about what you do when you hit performance limits. If you don't hit those limits, you obviously don't need that advice.
10:51	EvanR	obviously!
10:51	EvanR	if only any job i ever had thought that was obvious
10:52	EvanR	granted i didnt invent google or youtube
10:53	eraserhd	Is it possible to use a clojar from a maven project? How would one set the groupId and artifactId for something that advertises itself as '[ring-mock "0.1.5"]?
10:54	justin_smith	EvanR: I'm actually a big fan of the pragmatism in ztellman's stuff (and the same pragmatism in Clojure core). Purity is nice, but you should make a note of performance issues when your code is in every user's bottleneck (and with the lang, or a good lib, it will be)
10:54	llasram	eraserhd: The group-id is the same as the artifact-id
10:55	llasram	eraserhd: It should work fine, just adding clojars as a repository
10:55	EvanR	justin_smith: if this is about clojures implementation or design specifically, then nevermind
10:56	eraserhd	llasram: Ah, thanks.
10:59	tbaldridge	justin_smith: EvanR: once, over drinks, I Rich said something that stuck with me: "don't assume that some optimization that works well for a megacorp will work well for you"
10:59	hellofunk	i have a compojure route like this: (route/resources "/") in my resources/public i have /images/image.png. when i run this locally, the image routes and appears fine. when i deploy to heroku, it is a broken link. any ideas?
11:00	tbaldridge	I think the example was SPDY, it may save hundreds of thousands for Google, but it's an utter waste of time for a site with just a few servers.
11:00	weavejester	hellofunk: Which version of Ring/Compojure are you using?
11:00	hellofunk	weavejester compojure 1.1.8
11:01	hellofunk	weavejester but why would it be a versioning issue if it works fine on my local hosted with the same version as it is when deployed to heroku?
11:02	weavejester	hellofunk: Well, if you're up to date then it's easier to debug. I don't need to think about whether you might be hitting a known bug.
11:03	EvanR	tbaldridge: i wish, when faced with suggestions for web-scale killer hacks, i had some sort of simulation or model that i could run and see if it could make a damn of a difference, rather than relying on my reputation or badass demeanor to prove a point to someone who shouldnt believe me at all
11:03	hellofunk	weavejester well its a production app so we don't update too quickly without our own testing. i suspect there is something else going on here.
11:04	weavejester	hellofunk: Maybe. Sometimes production setups are different enough to development setups to make a difference. What happens when you access the image hosted on Heroku? A 404? A 500?
11:04	EvanR	,(some #{'a 'b 'c} ['e 'f 'g])
11:04	clojurebot	nil
11:04	weavejester	hellofunk: Are you starting from an uberjar or Leiningen? Are you using lein ring or lein run?
11:04	EvanR	,(some #{'a 'b 'c} ['e 'f 'b])
11:04	clojurebot	b
11:05	tbaldridge	EvanR: not sure I understand
11:05	hellofunk	weavejester it's a 404
11:06	hellofunk	weavejester i am running on heroku which i think uses uberjar
11:06	hellofunk	weavejester locally i am just starting the server with jetty from repl
11:06	weavejester	hellofunk: Try building the uberjar and seeing if that works or contains the file?
11:07	EvanR	,(some #{'a 'b 'c} 'b)
11:07	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Symbol>
11:07	hellofunk	weavejester i must admit i have never built an uberjar before, have not had the need. i will lookup how to do this (I have no Java background)
11:07	weavejester	hellofunk: It's just "lein uberjar"
11:07	hellofunk	weavejester then how do i inspect its contents?
11:08	weavejester	hellofunk: If Heroku is using an uberjar, it'll just use that command.
11:08	weavejester	hellofunk: jar -tf foo.jar
11:08	weavejester	hellofunk: Or just unzip it. Jars are zips.
11:08	hellofunk	weavejester thanks it is building now.
11:08	justin_smith	weavejester: hellofunk: emacs or vi will open the insides of jars as if they were directories and let you open the files inside
11:09	justin_smith	s/vi/vim
11:09	hellofunk	weavejester it creates both a standalone as well as snapshot, which is the one i am interested in?
11:09	weavejester	hellofunk: The standalone just contains all of the dependencies. You want the normal jar.
11:10	weavejester	hellofunk: Come to think of it, "lein jar" would have worked as well if all you wanted to do was look at the jar's content.
11:11	hellofunk	weavejester the file is in the jar under public/images as expected.
11:12	weavejester	hellofunk: If you execute the uberjar (the standalone one) with "java -jar", does it work as expected?
11:13	weavejester	hellofunk: And does the image have the right headers? Content type, etc.?
11:13	hellofunk	weavejester actually i think i found the issue. one moment i shall update.
11:15	fairuz	Hi guys. I require a library called clojurewerkz.ogre.core. I did check their source code and this ns do exist. But in my repl, it says java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojurewerkz/ogre/core__init.class or clojurewerkz/ogre/core.clj on classpath:
11:15	fairuz	Any suggestions? thanks
11:16	justin_smith	fairuz: on github it doesn't exist in the current version https://github.com/clojurewerkz/ogre/tree/master/test/clojurewerkz/ogre maybe you are looking at the wrong version of the source
11:16	hellofunk	weavejester so the image name is quite long and one character was the wrong case. apparently this is forgiven when launching to localhost for some reason, while it is not forgiven when launching from heroku. not sure why that would be, but glad I found it.
11:17	weavejester	hellofunk: Are you developing on a mac?
11:17	hellofunk	weavejester: yes
11:17	justin_smith	hellofunk: osx? case insensitive file systems suck
11:17	weavejester	hellofunk: The default mac file system is case insensitive, while Heroku likely uses Linux, and is case sensitive
11:17	EvanR	its not case insensitive
11:18	hellofunk	so guys, i'm curious. you are saying the case sensitivity of the OS trumps the web server software? weavejester, justin_smith
11:18	justin_smith	EvanR: what isn't?
11:18	justin_smith	hellofunk: not the OS. The filesystem.
11:18	fairuz	justin_smith: hm I'm confuse. But in src/clojure/clojurewerkz/core there's core.clj. Is this not it?
11:18	EvanR	ffs i dont have my mac
11:18	weavejester	hellofunk: The web server is built on the filesystem.
11:18	justin_smith	if the filesystem is case insensitive, it gives you the same file regardless of case changes
11:19	justin_smith	fairuz: that would be clojurewerks.core.core
11:19	eraserhd	Hrmm, is there a built-in way to convert a bean to a map?
11:19	justin_smith	fairuz: but I don't see that file in the repo anywhere
11:19	justin_smith	eraserhd: bean
11:20	justin_smith	,(bean (java.util.Date.))
11:20	clojurebot	{:day 2, :date 2, :time 1417537095208, :month 11, :seconds 15, ...}
11:20	fairuz	I'm using this release (2.5.0.0) https://github.com/clojurewerkz/ogre/tree/c00351d0e08e9b34d0e62f4654c74f13b9608313
11:20	EvanR	how did i survive in an office full of OSX for two years without running into a problem with this case insensitive filesystem oO
11:20	hellofunk	very interesting, fellas. Now OSX does offer the ability to set the drive to a case sensitive system, so maybe I should have done that when I partitioned it. weavejester justin_smith
11:20	fairuz	***src/clojure/clojurewerkz/ogre
11:21	justin_smith	fairuz: are you sure lein is giving you that exact version of the lib?
11:21	justin_smith	fairuz: we have at least established that some versions of ogre don't have the core ns
11:21	hellofunk	these are the popular options: Mac OS Extended, Mac OS Extended (Journaled), Mac OS (Case-sensitive), and Mac OS (Case-sensitive, Journaled) any other Mac devs, what do you use on your system?
11:22	fairuz	justin_smith: I can just check in .m2?
11:22	justin_smith	fairuz: lein deps :tree
11:22	Glenjamin	i tend to create a case sensitive partition for shared dev stuff
11:22	weavejester	I use the default case-insensitive filesystem, but run tests on a Linux box.
11:22	justin_smith	fairuz: or, while lein is running, look at the output of ps x to see the classpath, which will include the path to the specific jar it is using in the running process
11:22	Glenjamin	having two files with names that differ only by case sucks
11:23	weavejester	There are some who develop against vagrant to be as close as possible the production environment.
11:23	justin_smith	Glenjamin: I think his issue was that the file was referred to in another file with mixed case
11:23	weavejester	But I've never found it to be that huge an issue.
11:23	Glenjamin	ah right, deploying to case sensitive
11:24	eraserhd	justin_smith: Thanks! I thought there was, but brain fart.
11:24	justin_smith	Glenjamin: so things work locally because fs is insensitive, break remotely where case sensitive
11:25	Glenjamin	yeah
11:26	fairuz	justin_smith: I have [clojurewerkz/ogre "2.5.0.0"] in lein deps :tree
11:27	justin_smith	fairuz: well, that's weird
11:27	fairuz	justin_smith: I'm using instarepl of LightTable if it makes any difference
11:28	justin_smith	yeah, if you are getting the right version of the dep but the namespace isn't found, I have no explanation for that.
11:32	fairuz	hmm this is weird
11:34	justin_smith	fairuz: did you verify via the process listing that that is the version in the classpath of the running instance?
11:37	fairuz	justin_smith: It's not in the classpath from the ps x
11:37	fairuz	There's another one that is not in the classpath too, but I can use it just fine.
11:38	fairuz	This further confuses me :D
11:41	ordnungswidrig	fairuz: what does clojure.java.classpath/classpath return?
11:41	hellofunk	amalloy i got a question for you about 4clojure
11:42	hellofunk	well, i guess you're not around, my bad.
11:42	justin_smith	hellofunk: stull not 9 am yet west coast time
11:42	hellofunk	justin_smith lol yep.
11:44	brucehauman	seangrove: when javascript is reloaded ala figwheel the source maps and corresponding source doesn't seem to be reloaded.
11:44	fairuz	justin_smith: there's this entry -> #<File /home/vagrant/.m2/repository/clojurewerkz/ogre/2.5.0.0/ogre-2.5.0.0.jar>
12:31	Glenjamin	brucehauman: thanks for following that up btw
12:31	Glenjamin	been liking figwheel so far
12:31	Glenjamin	used it for a clojurescript intro workshop, mostly "just worked"
12:33	brucehauman	thanks man! trying to put a bunch more effort into it this week
12:34	Glenjamin	how feasible do you think it'd be to work as lib rather than a lein plugin?
12:34	Glenjamin	i had a few headaches trying to get something similar to chestnut, where the repl/server/figwheel are all in the same process
12:35	Glenjamin	https://github.com/defshef/defshef12 what i ended up with, adding the repl listener into the ring handler namespace
13:05	l1x	justin_smith: do you remember the last week convo about using (do all (pmap ...))
13:05	l1x	actually it is 10x faster than doseq
13:05	l1x	so yes it is worth to do (doall (pmap (.... even if you are in a thread
13:06	SagiCZ1	hi.. when i do (last (take 10 (iterate foo init))) the foo never gets executed, whats wrong?
13:06	justin_smith	l1x: cool
13:06	justin_smith	,(last (take 10 (iterate + 1)))
13:06	SagiCZ1	,(last (take 10 (iterate inc 0)))
13:07	clojurebot	1
13:07	clojurebot	9
13:07	SagiCZ1	it works here.. i dont understand
13:07	justin_smith	is foo lazy internally?
13:07	SagiCZ1	it has conj....
13:09	SagiCZ1	but it doesnt even get called.. i have debug print right at the beginning
13:10	justin_smith	do you know that the thing invoking it gets called?
13:11	justin_smith	and if it is in a thread, are you directly using its terminal, or is it an environment like cider or fireplace where the default root binding of out may not be immediately visible?
13:12	justin_smith	eg. cider creates nrepl server foo which gets some misplaced print output
13:15	justin_smith	SagiCZ1: oh, actually it's the nrepl-server foo buffer that gets it - you can see it with (.start (Thread. #(println "hi")))
13:16	SagiCZ1	i need to investigate this more.. seems really weird, i will come back later if i still cant figure it out
13:47	SagiCZ1	,(println "100")
13:47	SagiCZ1	,(println 100)
13:47	clojurebot	100\n
13:47	clojurebot	100\n
13:47	SagiCZ1	ok this was the problem.. i thought i had the same parameters
13:47	SagiCZ1	,(take "10" (range 12))
13:47	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
13:48	SagiCZ1	the exception got swallowed somewhere
14:07	hellofunk	is anyone here using the cursive plugin for intellij?
14:09	nullptr	hellofunk: going out on a limb here, but i think cfleming is probably using it...
14:10	SagiCZ1	hellofunk: i am using it extensively
14:11	SagiCZ1	cfleming is the author and frequents this channel too
14:11	hellofunk	i was curious if cursive provides function arg and arity hints for clojurescript code?
14:11	SagiCZ1	hellofunk: not sure.. works for clojure though
14:12	hellofunk	emacs does this for clojure too, but for cljs it seems to be hard to find this feature
14:16	seancorfield	ddellacosta: you pinged me last night - did you figure out the answer?
14:17	SagiCZ1	if i want to build executable jar with leiningen, do i have to specify all namespaces to be :aot in project.cls?
14:18	llasram	SagiCZ1: Just the :main namespace, which also needs to :gen-class
14:18	SagiCZ1	llasram: cool
14:18	SagiCZ1	thanks
14:21	SagiCZ1	when trying to run the executable jar i get NoClassDefFoundError clojure/lang/IFn
14:27	SagiCZ1	nevermind, it creates two jars, works like a charm
14:32	hellofunk	what happened to the 2014 State of Clojure survey results? they were apparently taken offline https://cognitect.wufoo.com/forms/state-of-clojure-2014/
14:32	nullptr	http://blog.cognitect.com/blog/2014/10/20/results-of-2014-state-of-clojure-and-clojurescript-survey
14:33	hellofunk	nullptr thanks i guess they have a broken link on their other blog post
15:09	justin_smith	so I have a problem that is likely solved by checking if the arg is an instance of AFn, but before I decide on that, what is implementing AFn supposed to convey?
15:10	justin_smith	my main criteria is I want to match protocol methods, multimethods, and functions, but not symbols and keywords
15:10	justin_smith	and AFn lets me differentiate between those
15:11	ordnungswidrig	justin_smith: can you give more context? Why do you need to differentiate?
15:11	justin_smith	since all of them implement IFn, but only the former list are AFn
15:12	ordnungswidrig	I would not rely on that fact and check if it's a symbol or keyword if it's what you want.
15:12	justin_smith	ordnungswidrig: callable (all of them) vs. a thing that is meant to be called with args
15:12	justin_smith	other things are callable but not in the list of things I want either
15:12	ordnungswidrig	what about (fn [] "boo!")
15:12	ordnungswidrig	it's callable but without args.
15:12	justin_smith	that is fine
15:13	justin_smith	my "with args" thing was sloppy, sorry
15:13	ordnungswidrig	give me more context
15:13	stuartsierra	`AFn` is mostly an implementation detail; not intended to convey anything.
15:13	ordnungswidrig	why not (not (or (symbol? x) (keyword? x)))
15:14	justin_smith	ordnungswidrig: it is a router for handling requests, and so far we had a whitelist of "if it's a function, use that, otherwise resolve the symbol or use the var" etc. but I would like something a bit more resilient (so that for example a user can supply a multimethod or protocol function and expect it to work)
15:14	ordnungswidrig	well, checking for a symbol or var might not be your job as a router.
15:15	justin_smith	ordnungswidrig: the api explicitly says if you supply a symbol, it resolves that symbol at runtime
15:15	ordnungswidrig	which api?
15:15	justin_smith	this is so that a routing table can be expressed as edn
15:15	justin_smith	the api of the lib I am currently fixing
15:15	ordnungswidrig	I see.
15:16	ordnungswidrig	:-)
15:16	ordnungswidrig	I would then define a multimethod for the types that does the right thing for a) a symbol b) a var c) anything else (e.g. a function)
15:17	justin_smith	yeah, right now its a cond statement deciding what to store when building the routing table. I was hoping for something more general and elegant than adding more special cases, but that seems to be the path forward.
15:17	ordnungswidrig	or check with `fn?` which evaluates to true for functions, protocol functions and multimethods
15:18	justin_smith	,(fn? print-method)
15:18	clojurebot	false
15:18	justin_smith	nope
15:18	ordnungswidrig	hm
15:18	ordnungswidrig	mabye just protocols
15:18	justin_smith	that's exactly what I was using for the test before ?
15:18	ordnungswidrig	ok, I still don
15:19	ordnungswidrig	't get the usecase. If it's defined in EDN you cannot have a function there, just symbols, right?
15:19	justin_smith	which is why I came up with this whole "test for AFn" thing, but if as stuartsierra says AFn is not meant to convey anything useful, than I'll just add some clauses to the cond statement or maybe make it a multimethod
15:19	justin_smith	ordnungswidrig: you can supply edn
15:19	ordnungswidrig	I see.
15:19	djames	For run, I'm building up a REPL-based Clojure game
15:19	justin_smith	you can also supply a data structure containing things like functions or vars as handler
15:19	djames	err. for fun! (and to run) haha
15:20	ordnungswidrig	justin_smith: I'd go with a multimethod
15:20	justin_smith	yeah, then the user can extend the multimethod for their magic thing that should also route
15:20	justin_smith	good advice, thanks
15:20	djames	I'm thinking about quick ways to make it multiplayer
15:20	justin_smith	(inc ordnungswidrig)
15:20	djames	if each player has a REPL, they could use nrepl to connect
15:20	ordnungswidrig	djames: what kind of game?
15:21	justin_smith	amalloy: can you restart lazybot? I don't think I have the privs
15:21	stuartsierra	justin_smith: It will probably be easiest to test for the specific types you're looking for rather than search for some predicate which perfectly separates them.
15:21	justin_smith	stuartsierra: you're right, thanks. I think I'll use a multimethod, which means user's can extend it.
15:21	justin_smith	*users
15:22	djames	ordnungswidrig: well, it happens to be about voting and elections, but that doesn't matter too much
15:22	djames	having a REPL could allow people to cheat by looking too much into the game state atom, but I'm ok with that to start
15:22	ordnungswidrig	I was more asking is it round based or "live"
15:23	ordnungswidrig	or realtime
15:23	djames	it would be a fun way to introduce friends to clojure as well
15:23	justin_smith	djames: you could use an IPC queue for game events
15:23	djames	round-based but some actions could be concurrent -- no need to wait for others, for example, to "run polls" or "create an ad"
15:23	justin_smith	s/ipc/message
15:24	justin_smith	ie. rabbitmq or hornetq
15:25	djames	justin_smith: possibly. i'm starting simpler... here's what I'm wondering about. if each player connects to a shared REPL, they could hack it
15:25	ordnungswidrig	djames: mabye this will help http://blog.xebia.com/2014/08/25/vert-x-with-core-async-handling-asynchronous-workflows/
15:25	djames	which is ok to start I suppose
15:26	djames	I think what I want is a way for each player to have their own REPL
15:26	djames	then I could write some simple nrepl code to pull the game state from a shared REPL
15:27	djames	of course a browser interface would be better once the gameplay is figured out. the game isn't really designed yet
15:32	justin_smith	djames: yeah, you could use a web server or a raw socket to send the messages between the repls, but beyond a fairly a small scale, a proper inter-process message queue is actually the simpler solution, compared to hacking your own whatever state-sharing solution
15:33	EvanR	state sharing across the network?
15:33	justin_smith	EvanR: beats having everyone use the same repl I guess
15:34	djames	justin_smith: interesting poitn
15:34	justin_smith	EvanR: multi-player games do require shared state
15:34	EvanR	i object to such a concept
15:34	djames	I wonder what setup the bot competitions use... probably a central server with shared state and some private information
15:34	djames	bots only get the information that they would need
15:34	justin_smith	EvanR: I look forward to your new, revolutionary, stateless game concept
15:35	EvanR	in realtime action multiplayer games, you dont synchronize your separate states because it would be too slow
15:35	EvanR	if you did synchronize, its still not sharing
15:35	djames	justin_smith: exactly. I don't play chess a move at a time, I create an immutable value that holds the entire game
15:35	justin_smith	but they aren't playing the game if there isn't shared state
15:35	EvanR	thats not true
15:35	EvanR	unless this is specifically chess
15:36	djames	i was joking
15:36	djames	(Some people view time as an illusion)
15:36	djames	anyhow, this seems like a silly misunderstanding standing in for a proper debate
15:36	EvanR	because of internet latency, there is a necessary idea of approximately equal distinct states, players usually do not care if things are slightly off
15:37	djames	if we all explained what we were actually saying, I don't think there would be much disagreement
15:37	djames	thanks for the ideas
15:37	EvanR	in any case, i was wonder how you were sharing states across the network in the sense of clojure sharing data structures among distinct values
15:38	djames	my purpose is to start very simple because I haven't designed, much less play-tested a turn-based strategy game
15:38	djames	the simplest is one REPL
15:38	justin_smith	EvanR: I think you are using a much more specific and concrete definition of "shared state" than I was. I didn't mean that it was synchronized and identical to all clients, just that there is some method of agreeing eventually on the events that have occured in a shared domain.
15:39	djames	if/when the single-REPL approach does not cut it, I'm thinking about going to one master REPL with various client REPLs connected via nrepl
15:40	justin_smith	djames: I guess if you trust all the players with full access to the server
15:40	djames	at this point, yes. prototyping. e.g. what rules make for fun games, reasonable length, etc.
15:41	EvanR	whats the benefit of the repl, a ready-made command line?
15:41	justin_smith	in that case, you could have all the clients use the same nrepl server, and call that good - only one nrepl server process need exist
15:41	djames	yep!
15:42	Glenjamin	you might be able to implement any future protections as nrepl middleware anyway
15:43	EvanR	seems like real protection would be kind of hard to accomplish
15:43	EvanR	halting problem?
15:43	justin_smith	EvanR: Glenjamin: it could use clojail like lazybot does
15:43	Glenjamin	well, you can just whitelist, rather than blacklist
15:44	xemdetia	EvanR, maybe you should look at this article for ideas http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131503/1500_archers_on_a_288_network_.php
15:44	EvanR	how do you blacklist an infinite loop
15:44	Glenjamin	thread + timeout
15:44	justin_smith	EvanR: ##(loop [] (recur))
15:44	arrdem	Proof of nontermination? anyone?
15:44	Glenjamin	,(reduce + (range))
15:44	clojurebot	eval service is offline
15:44	Glenjamin	dno't need proof for a game, just an execution cap :)
15:45	justin_smith	oops, the above was supposed to call lazybot, who is out
15:45	Glenjamin	,(reduce + (range))
15:45	EvanR	xemdetia: yeah i read that a long time ago, its awesome
15:45	arrdem	justin_smith: lazybot is down? I thought you fixed him!
15:45	clojurebot	eval service is offline
15:45	EvanR	way before quake3
15:45	arrdem	,1
15:45	clojurebot	eval service is offline
15:45	Glenjamin	hrm, i'm sure that should timeout rather than eval service offline
15:45	justin_smith	arrdem: hey, the uptime was great
15:45	EvanR	justin_smith: surely thats not literally enough
15:45	justin_smith	arrdem: but clearly not 100% fixed yet
15:46	arrdem	hum maybe clojurebot is actually having heartburn too
15:46	djames	xemdetia thanks for sharing that: this part is interesting "The PCs would basically synchronize their game watches in best war-movie tradition, allow players to issue commands, and then execute in exactly the same way at the same time and have identical games."
15:46	Glenjamin	EvanR: the main issue is protecting from sideeffects, computation can be limited relatively easily with threads
15:46	xemdetia	djames, I thought so too. I thought it would be helpful in EvanR's case because it sounds like he is trying to do the same thing with having synchronized distributed state.
15:47	justin_smith	xemdetia: djames is the one trying to do that actually, EvanR just has opinions about how to do it
15:47	xemdetia	sorry I didn't parse far enough back :(
15:47	djames	xemdetia: that was written in 2001 before "big data" and "distributed systems" were invented smirk
15:48	justin_smith	xemdetia: happens to the best of us
15:48	djames	EvanR: good luck with your game! haha
15:48	xemdetia	djames, 'distributed systems' was definitely a term for a long time if you are from mainframeland
15:49	EvanR	starcrafts infamous "synchronization failed"
15:49	EvanR	because one player had a slow internet
15:49	EvanR	none of this matters because djames is doing a turn-based game
15:51	djames	EvanR: not too mention that I am not stuck with a 28.8 modem either
15:51	xemdetia	depending on the type of turn based game you could still have a lot of the same problems
15:51	EvanR	28.8 could have great latency!
15:51	xemdetia	unless it is completely isolated turn-taking
15:51	djames	some turn-based games allow for interesting game play by resolving async orders in lockstep
15:51	EvanR	duke3d played great, until someone picked up your phone
15:51	justin_smith	xemdetia: hell, I have the same problem with board games when we are playing in person and one person just takes way too long making a move and doesn't even realize it was their turn
15:52	aaelony	I think the docstring for pmap should contain a note to use shutdown-agents when done. I always forget that.. There is a note in the examples section, but the doc string I think would be preferable.
15:52	djames	Diplomacy has a set of rules for combining (and deconflicting if needed) "asynchronous" player actions.
15:52	justin_smith	git merge: the game
15:52	xemdetia	justin_smith, true enough. I haven't played a board game in quite a while so I forget
15:53	EvanR	in civilization (some number less than latest) you could not do shit if it wasnt your turn, nice and simple!
15:53	djames	this has been fun, thanks for the articles and ideas
15:53	xemdetia	a turned based game just has a poorly specified tick timer :)
15:54	djames	justin_smith: git branch: the game where you never lose
15:54	djames	not sure what turn to make? just branch the game and see what happens
15:54	Glenjamin	having a defined tick means it doesn't have to be a typing contest
15:55	Glenjamin	see also: emulator snapshotting
15:55	justin_smith	Glenjamin: even muds had defined ticks (but you still get typing contests / trigger contests because the ticks were short)
15:58	EvanR	minecrafts "ticks" are so annoying
15:58	EvanR	every tick, do like 100 probabilistic effects to every block in view
15:58	EvanR	like 100 times a second
15:58	arrdem	what kind of game are we chatting about? real turn based or pseudo-real time?
15:59	xemdetia	I think it is more the concept of synchronization of player moves
15:59	arrdem	isn't this the minimum diff problem which is NP hard?
16:00	pepijndevos	Is there something like into-with?
16:00	ordnungswidrig	pepijndevos: into-with?
16:01	pepijndevos	I want to turn a seq with duplicated into a map, merging the duplicates.
16:01	pepijndevos	Like merge-with but for a seq of pairs.
16:01	EvanR	thats a reduce right
16:02	pepijndevos	uuuhm... it could be a reduce, yes.
16:02	justin_smith	yeah, probably easiest to do in a reduce
16:02	justin_smith	(inc reduce)
16:02	justin_smith	:(
16:02	arrdem	into is just reduce with some magic to use transients
16:03	justin_smith	arrdem: plus a pretty specific and limited reduction function
16:03	arrdem	yarp
16:08	EvanR	is there a form that lets me locally use a different namespace
16:09	amalloy	(inc reduce)
16:09	lazybot	⇒ 1
16:09	justin_smith	amalloy: thanks
16:09	justin_smith	(inc reduce)
16:09	lazybot	⇒ 2
16:09	justin_smith	(inc ordnungswidrig)
16:09	lazybot	⇒ 2
16:10	amalloy	pepijndevos: it sounds like merge-with
16:10	Glenjamin	,(merge-with merge [[:a 1] [:b 2]])
16:10	amalloy	(apply merge-with into {} (for ...)) is a useful pattern
16:10	clojurebot	[[:a 1] [:b 2]]
16:10	Glenjamin	,(merge-with merge (hash-map [:a 1] [:b 2]))
16:10	clojurebot	{[:a 1] [:b 2]}
16:11	pepijndevos	amalloy, it does, but that really only works on maps
16:11	Glenjamin	meh, for is better
16:11	amalloy	pepijndevos: that's what the (for ...) is about. convert your inputs into the map shape you want
16:11	Glenjamin	$source merge-with
16:11	lazybot	merge-with is http://is.gd/eoJ3Mo
16:11	justin_smith	pepijndevos: well, if you want things merged the way maps would be, doesn't making maps out ofthem make sense?
16:12	pepijndevos	,(merge-with + {} [[1 2] [1 2]])
16:12	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry>
16:12	amalloy	,(apply merge-with into {} (for [x '(a b c) y '(1 2 3)] {x [y]}))
16:12	clojurebot	{c [1 2 3], b [1 2 3], a [1 2 3]}
16:12	amalloy	,(apply merge-with + {} (for [x '(a b c) y '(1 2 3)] {x y}))
16:12	clojurebot	{c 6, b 6, a 6}
16:12	pepijndevos	the expected result would be {1 4) for my example.
16:13	pepijndevos	ah... interesting
16:15	EvanR	with-ns seems deprecated
16:16	Bronsa	,with-ns
16:16	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: with-ns in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
16:16	arrdem	not even in 1.4...
16:16	arrdem	where even are you seeing that?
16:16	justin_smith	&(apply merge-with + {} (for [[k v] [[1 2] [1 2]]] {k v}))
16:16	lazybot	⇒ {1 4}
16:16	EvanR	google clojure with-ns
16:17	Bronsa	ah clojure-contrib
16:17	justin_smith	^^ pepijndevos I think that's what you are looking for?
16:17	arrdem	lol @ contrib
16:17	pepijndevos	yea
16:19	ordnungswidrig	&(reduce (fn [m [k v]] (update-in m [k] (fnil + 0) v)) [[1 2] [1 2]]))
16:19	lazybot	⇒ [1 4]
16:20	ordnungswidrig	Is there a reducing function which uses multiple cores for a associative reducer function?
16:20	ordnungswidrig	maybe using divide and conquer?
16:20	EvanR	fold
16:20	justin_smith	ordnungswidrig: checkout out core.reducers
16:21	justin_smith	http://clojure.org/reducers
16:21	ordnungswidrig	doh
16:21	EvanR	you should definitely profile to make sure doing this actually helps
16:22	thearthur	Does The reduce function does this on vectors out of the box
16:22	justin_smith	EvanR: good point. The fact that the default partitioning is 512 elements is illustrative I think
16:22	justin_smith	thearthur: no
16:22	justin_smith	thearthur: regular reduce does not create any new threads or use a thread pool, it does everything in the same thread where it is called
16:23	justin_smith	unless you pass in a reducing function that uses threads of course...
16:25	ordnungswidrig	&(r/fold (partial merge-with +) (r/map (partial apply hash-map) [[1 2] [1 2]]))
16:25	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: No such namespace: r
16:25	ordnungswidrig	(clojure.core.reducers/fold (partial merge-with +) (clojure.core.reducers/map (partial apply hash-map) [[1 2] [1 2]]))
16:25	justin_smith	ordnungswidrig: the bots don't let you make / use threads anyway
16:25	ordnungswidrig	&(clojure.core.reducers/fold (partial merge-with +) (clojure.core.reducers/map (partial apply hash-map) [[1 2] [1 2]]))
16:25	lazybot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.core.reducers
16:26	justin_smith	you would need to require the ns
16:26	Bronsa	,(require 'clojure.core.reducers)
16:26	clojurebot	#<FileNotFoundException java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/core/reducers__init.class or clojure/core/reducers.clj on classpath.>
16:26	EvanR	,(boolean true)
16:26	clojurebot	true
16:26	EvanR	,(boolean false)
16:26	clojurebot	false
16:26	EvanR	is there a boolean? function
16:27	Bronsa	EvanR: no
16:27	justin_smith	(defn boolean? [x] (contains? #{true false} x))
16:27	Bronsa	,(def boolean? (some-fn true? false?))
16:27	clojurebot	#'sandbox/boolean?
16:27	justin_smith	or that
16:28	arrdem	would be entertained to see a benchmark shootout between those and the obvious (or) implementation
16:28	ordnungswidrig	a macro please!
16:28	Bronsa	arrdem: some-fn is equivalent to the or impl
16:28	arrdem	Bronsa: initially? I totally buy that it'll be equivalent once the JIT has a good look at it.
16:29	Bronsa	arrdem: it's unrolled
16:29	justin_smith	$source some-fn
16:29	lazybot	some-fn is http://is.gd/iPgf2J
16:29	Bronsa	arrdem: for the 1-arity, the impl is (or (f x) (g x))
16:29	justin_smith	yeah, very aggressively unrolled
16:29	arrdem	Bronsa: gotcha.
16:30	arrdem	Bronsa: so remember that logic database thing I was playing with for ASTs?
16:30	Bronsa	yeah
16:30	arrdem	Bronsa: turns out that core.logic has a better one built in
16:30	Bronsa	go figure :P
16:30	arrdem	gonna try and rebuild Oxcart atop that over Christmas. Should be fun :D
16:30	arrdem	should also make stuff like partial application and inlining trivial.
16:31	Bronsa	arrdem: nice. I've always been a bit worried about core.logic's performance for it to be useful for usage with t.a
16:32	arrdem	Bronsa: yeah not gonna lie I'm concerned that this is gonna blow up in my face, but it'll be a fun experiment and it's easy to backport to my fully transient equivalent (the cutaway crap) if core.logic proves too slow.
17:25	puredanger	why not (defn boolean? [b] (instance? Boolean b))
17:27	amalloy	puredanger: that is probably a better definition
17:27	arrdem	oh good java.lang.Boolean is final I was worried for a minute there.
17:27	justin_smith	,((some-fn false? true?) (Boolean. nil)) ;; puredanger amalloy
17:27	clojurebot	false
17:28	hiredman	well, (def boolean? (some-fn true? false?)) is cross platform
17:28	justin_smith	,(Boolean. nil)
17:28	clojurebot	false
17:28	hiredman	(maybe?)
17:28	EvanR	yurg?
17:28	arrdem	hiredman: ideally
17:28	EvanR	is "boolean" even a standard type?
17:28	amalloy	justin_smith: well, if you use the Boolean constructor you deserve what you get
17:29	puredanger	exactly
17:29	EvanR	,(type true)
17:29	clojurebot	java.lang.Boolean
17:29	puredanger	it's only purpose is to create Clojure wat examples :)
17:29	justin_smith	amalloy: just showing that some things that are Boolean are not one of the booleans we care about
17:29	amalloy	puredanger: it messes up plenty of other stuff
17:30	amalloy	like i remember discovering that when you write Boolean/FALSE to an ObjectOutputStream and read it back in, what you get out is (Boolean. false)
17:30	puredanger	yeah, deserialization is one place where you can run into this
17:31	puredanger	although in actual Java serialization I assume Boolean objects do the proper readResolve to give you the canonical version
17:31	EvanR	oO
17:31	EvanR	all i need is a dynamic check for "booleanness" ;_;
17:32	puredanger	I think (defn boolean? [b] (instance? Boolean b)) is the best impl
17:32	EvanR	thats predicated on the java backend right
17:33	EvanR	just making sure
17:33	puredanger	yes
17:33	puredanger	there's a ticket out there in jira to create more of these type predicates (which could be made portable by the platform)
17:34	amalloy	puredanger: no, in actual java serialization they don't; that's what i was complaining about
17:34	puredanger	that surprises me
17:34	EvanR	,(contains? #{true false} nil)
17:34	clojurebot	false
17:34	puredanger	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1298 is the predicate ticket I referred to
17:34	puredanger	although it doesn't actually have boolean?
17:36	EvanR	,(str (type nil) " is not a valid option, buster")
17:36	clojurebot	" is not a valid option, buster"
17:36	EvanR	uhg
17:36	justin_smith	,(pr-str nil)
17:36	clojurebot	"nil"
17:36	arrdem	I have Bronsa's some-fn and puredanger's instance getting to the ns times in a trivial attempt to benchmark
17:36	amalloy	,(let [a (java.io.ByteArrayOutputStream.) _ (.writeObject (java.io.ObjectOutputStream. a) false) x (.readObject (java.io.ObjectInputStream. (java.io.ByteArrayInputStream. (.toByteArray a))))] (map #(System/identityHashCode %) [x false]))
17:36	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
17:37	dbasch	a groups of Booleans are restoring the home of George Boole
17:37	amalloy	puredanger: well, in a real repl that prints two different numbers
17:37	puredanger	I believe you :)
17:37	EvanR	justin_smith: that is awesome
17:37	puredanger	everything about serialization is wrong
17:37	amalloy	i was double-checking for myself; last time i tried it was like four years ago
17:37	Bronsa	,clojure.lang.IAtom
17:37	clojurebot	clojure.lang.IAtom
17:38	Bronsa	nice, didn't realize that one got commited already
17:38	hiredman	:/
17:38	puredanger	early alpha
17:38	justin_smith	didn't Goetz mention something about a bunch of things about serialization being messed up for backward compatibility reasons because they released a half-backed impl too soon?
17:38	puredanger	yes
17:39	puredanger	there are some internal java paths that let you do object construction without calling the constructor buried in the serialization guts
17:39	hiredman	get ready for the land slide of things without atomic semantics that implement IAtom
17:39	puredanger	you can use those for great evil
17:40	EvanR	can i do "list interpolation" '(x y $z w) :3
17:40	KnightsWhoSayNi	`(x y ,z w) ?
17:41	stuartsierra	,(let [stuff [3 4 5]] `(1 2 ~@stuff 6 7))
17:41	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5 ...)
17:41	TEttinger	oh yeah, that thing
17:45	EvanR	so with ` i get a lot of my symbols (when i print them out of the repl) now qualified fully
17:45	puredanger	syntax quote will do that
17:46	EvanR	why does it do that, is there a way to disable that
17:47	justin_smith	EvanR: for making macros less buggy
17:48	puredanger	some of the things in tools.macro might be better suited for template-like use cases https://github.com/clojure/tools.macro
17:48	justin_smith	and you can use `(~'x) but that's kind of ugly
17:48	EvanR	so a symbol has some understood namespace, is there such a thing as a "free" symbol
17:48	justin_smith	EvanR: ` is generating namespaces symbols out of unnamespaced ones
17:49	justin_smith	a normal symbol doesn't usually have a namespace
17:49	noonian	,'foo
17:49	clojurebot	foo
17:49	justin_smith	,(.getNs 'foo)
17:49	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: getNs for class clojure.lang.Symbol>
17:49	justin_smith	err
17:49	amalloy	EvanR: free symbols cause a lot of problems when used in macros, and ` is mostly used in macros, so its default behavior is to not emit any such symbols
17:49	justin_smith	,(map namespace 'foo 'bar/foo 'baz/foo)
17:49	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Symbol>
17:50	justin_smith	,(map namespace ['foo 'bar/foo 'baz/foo])
17:50	clojurebot	(nil "bar" "baz")
17:51	justin_smith	,(.getNamespace 'foo) ; that's what I was trying initially
17:51	clojurebot	nil
17:51	EvanR	well, ill use (list ... 'symbol ....)
17:52	amalloy	EvanR: what is an example of an actual list you are building here?
17:53	EvanR	there is some code (list {field t} '=> t) which becomes ({:shit t1} => t1)
17:54	amalloy	well, that seems like a reasonable way to write it. i'm curious what you need that => for at all, though?
17:55	EvanR	well something else is going to look for that in the second position to differentiate it from something else, hypothetically
17:56	EvanR	also when they get nested, its going to be easier to read and write than if they were just omitted
17:57	amalloy	EvanR: that sounds like a terrible data structure though, right? like, instead of lists where the second symbol means something different, why not a map like {:differentiator '=> :condition {{field t} t}}
17:57	noonian	looks like its a macro for writing midje tests possibly
17:59	EvanR	amalloy: right, well my way of doing what youre doing is [discrimcode a b c ...] and then core.match
17:59	EvanR	but right now im not doing that
17:59	EvanR	what i said earlier is hypothetical at best
18:04	EvanR	whats an idiomatic way to have a counter, incremented in place. an atom with a number in it?
18:05	mdrogalis	EvanR: Yeah.
18:06	benzap	so I have a basic situation that I know should work, but doesn't
18:07	benzap	,(defn foo [x & {:keys [bar] :or {bar "ha"}}] (println x bar))
18:07	clojurebot	#'sandbox/foo
18:08	benzap	,(foo 1 :bar "test")
18:08	clojurebot	1 test\n
18:08	benzap	,(defn bar [x & args] (apply foo x args))
18:08	clojurebot	#'sandbox/bar
18:09	benzap	(bar x :bar "test")
18:09	benzap	,(bar x :bar "test")
18:09	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: x in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
18:09	benzap	,(bar 1 :bar "test")
18:09	clojurebot	1 test\n
18:09	benzap	...
18:09	amalloy	yeah, that works fine. you have some other problem
18:11	benzap	,(defn bar [x & {:keys [bar] :or {bar "haha"} :as args}] (apply foo x args))
18:11	clojurebot	#'sandbox/bar
18:11	benzap	,(bar 1 :bar "test")
18:11	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No value supplied for key: [:bar "test"]>
18:11	amalloy	benzap: mhm. because args is a map there, not a seq
18:11	benzap	ah
18:11	benzap	do I need to convert it to a seq?
18:12	amalloy	benzap: i mean, there are things you can do to make this work
18:12	amalloy	but by far the easiest is to use {:keys ...} instead of & {:keys ...}
18:12	amalloy	look at all this trouble the varargs are causing you, and the only advantage is that you save the two {} characters when calling the function
18:12	benzap	yeah true, but it looks pretty
18:13	EvanR	make love not varargs
18:13	justin_smith	benzap: use of vararg keys is also harder to compose - it's nice to be able to just pass the map along
18:14	alexyakushev	benzap: vararg key-value arguments are usually used in user-facing functions
18:15	amalloy	alexyakushev: even in user-facing functions they're not great
18:16	alexyakushev	amalloy: Maybe. But my argument was that they are definitely not great deeper in the callstack
18:16	benzap	yeah, I converted it away from varargs, and I don't have any troubles now
18:17	alexyakushev	Hm, good to see this point is now updated here http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Library+Coding+Standards
18:17	alexyakushev	I remember it used to promote unrolling kw arguments
18:17	amalloy	benzap: it's way easier to deal with stuff when there's an actual object, with a name, representing it; varargs are like "a bunch of disconnected things" all with no name. that's fine sometimes, eg for the args to +, but for option maps, where you might want to do anything at all other than destructure them once, having a value representing it makes stuff easier
18:18	arrdem	alexyakushev: someone is gonna figure out that I fixed it eventually :P shhhhh
18:18	amalloy	oh, that's nice, alexyakushev
18:19	alexyakushev	arrdem: you better hurry spreading the word before I steal all the credit
18:20	arrdem	alexyakushev: as long as the change doesn't get rolled back I could care less.
18:22	alexyakushev	arrdem: you mean you couldn't care less :p
18:23	arrdem	that
18:48	cfleming	hellofunk: Yes, that all works equivalently for clj and cljs
18:59	EvanR	what does it mean when i get this error, and the backtrace has nothing within any of my source code
18:59	EvanR	ArityException Wrong number of args (1) passed to: type-checker$what-is-type-in$fn--14540$fn clojure.lang.AFn.throwArity (AFn.java:437)
19:00	EvanR	im using the right number of arguments everywhere
19:00	EvanR	maybe i need to reload the repl
19:01	EvanR	did not help
19:01	EvanR	backtrace just says stuff like lazy seq, clojure core
19:01	amalloy	EvanR: print the whole stacktrace, paste it to refheap or something
19:02	EvanR	im trying to do a into {} map on a map
19:02	amalloy	if it says nothing meaningful to you, that doesn't mean there's nothing meaningful in it
19:03	EvanR	https://www.refheap.com/dd171e33c648f6a446818dfe8
19:05	EvanR	it does have three lines from my source code in there
19:05	amalloy	okay, so the sequence you are trying to dump into a map is lazy, and realizing it causes an exception
19:05	EvanR	cripes
19:05	amalloy	ie, you have written (into {} (map f xs)), and takes too many args
19:05	amalloy	er
19:05	amalloy	f takes more than one arg
19:06	EvanR	ok, its (fn [k v] ...) but i think it needs to be (fn [[k v]] ...)
19:06	amalloy	according to the exception message you pasted earlier, that f is what-is-type-in
19:06	EvanR	well thats not right, may thats just what function the function is in
19:06	justin_smith	yeah [[k v]] is what you want for mapping over a hash-map
19:07	EvanR	lovely
19:07	amalloy	justin_smith: yes, although (for [[k v] m] ...) is almost always clearer than (map (fn [[k v]] ...) m)
19:07	amalloy	it also has the advantage that this sort of mistake is immediately apparent
19:07	amalloy	because (for [k v m] ...) will immediately fail to compile
19:08	EvanR	i used for [[k v] m] [k ...] instead
19:08	EvanR	and it worked
19:08	EvanR	and thats more clear?
19:08	hyPiRion	,(fn [m] (for [k v m] [k v]))
19:08	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval25$fn__26 sandbox$eval25$fn__26@e28d65>
19:09	amalloy	hyPiRion: har har, where is the u+FEFF?
19:10	EvanR	well i wrote a map values function, and i cant be arsed to import the dang module its in ...
19:10	EvanR	i wish it was just built in
19:10	hyPiRion	between the k and the v – I'm a bit surprised I haven't removed this "handy" keyboard shortcut already. I accidentally use it pretty often
19:11	EvanR	F11F FE1F F00F FEff
19:11	EvanR	i smell the blood of an englishmen
19:22	dbasch	the link to alpha4 remains broken, in case someone cares http://clojure.org/downloads
19:22	amalloy	hah, that url
19:23	amalloy	.../1.7.0-alpha3/clojure-1.7.0-alpha4.zip
19:23	dbasch	the script to generate that page is also alpha
19:23	amalloy	dbasch: it's a challenge: if you can't figure out how to fix the url, you don't deserve to download the latest alpha
19:24	dbasch	but if you know how to fix the url you’re probably using leiningen anyway
19:46	devn	off topic: pretty cool visualization of an ongoing DDoS http://map.ipviking.com/
19:53	profil	Hey guys, which is faster, running rest on a set or running disj? How can I find this information?
19:54	noonian	devn: that is mesmerizing to watch
19:55	hiredman	profil: disj will return a set, rest will not
19:56	profil	hiredman: alright, and I guess disj is faster than running (set (rest set))?
19:58	hiredman	well rest returns a seq, which has O(n) membership testing, and sets have something like O(log_32n) for membership, given a structure with O(n) membership testing, how effeciently could you turn it in to something with O(log_32 n) membership testing?
20:00	profil	O(n log_32 n)?
20:02	justin_smith	devn: hah, lots of people targeting st. louis right now
20:04	dbasch	profil: why would you want to call rest on a set anyway? do you want to remove a random element?
20:04	noonian	i'm trying to figure out what is the island between africa, south america, and antarctica thats labeled Mil/Gov
20:05	profil	dbasch: no, the first element?
20:05	dbasch	profil: sets have no order
20:05	justin_smith	profil: the "first element" of a set is not defined
20:05	profil	dbasch: yeah I understood that now..
20:06	justin_smith	it's an implementation detail
20:06	profil	its too late.. I'm tired :D
20:06	hyPiRion	It is in an ordered set
20:06	profil	but its okay to use first on a set right?
20:07	justin_smith	hyPiRion: oh?
20:07	hyPiRion	justin_smith: ##(first (sorted-set 3 4 1)) always returns 1
20:07	lazybot	⇒ 1
20:08	justin_smith	hyPiRion: wait, I misparsed the "it" to refer to profil's set, I know ordered sets exist :)
20:08	ssk	how complete is apache spark clojure binding
20:08	justin_smith	profil: sure, but who knows which item you'll get ##(first #{:a :b :c :d :e :f :g :h})
20:08	lazybot	⇒ :e
20:08	dbasch	profil: “okay” depends on what you want
20:09	profil	justin_smith, dbasch: I dont really care, I just want any item
20:09	hyPiRion	then first is okay
20:09	profil	I am porting a flood fill algorithm from javascript to clojure :)
20:09	profil	using sets for cells which has been visited, and which should be visited
20:09	justin_smith	there is also ##(rand-nth #{:a :b :c :d :e :f :g :h}) if you care in that you want it to be random and not just implementation defined
20:09	lazybot	java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: PersistentHashSet
20:10	justin_smith	:(
20:10	dbasch	&(first (set [5 6 7 8]))
20:10	lazybot	⇒ 7
20:14	dbasch	noonian: Bouvet Island
20:14	noonian	thats what i thought
20:14	profil	I have a vector which contains vectors, is there a nicer way to get a value from that than using "(nth (nth vec x) y)"?
20:14	noonian	all info says its uninhabited
20:14	dbasch	noonian: it has a tld, .bv
20:15	justin_smith	,(([[:a :b :c] [:d :e :f]] 1) 2) ; profil
20:15	clojurebot	:f
20:15	justin_smith	,(get-in [[:a :b :c] [:d :e :f]] [1 2]) ; profil
20:15	clojurebot	:f
20:16	profil	justin_smith: ah nice, get-in would be best, thanks :)
20:16	justin_smith	strictly requires vecs, will break with lazy-seq or list
20:17	profil	yeah, I am using vectors. Parsing json arrays turns into vectors :)
20:18	justin_smith	get-in has the bonus that it also works with hash-maps enclosing / nested with vectors
20:19	profil	a
20:19	profil	oh nice, thanks for your help :)
20:19	justin_smith	,(get-in {:a [1 2 3]} [:a 1])
20:19	clojurebot	2
20:20	profil	,(get-in {"layout" [[1 2] [3 4]]} ["layout" 1 1])
20:20	clojurebot	4
20:20	profil	yey :)
20:31	ssk	(eval '(+ 2 3 5))
20:40	josiah14	what's the advantage of using defn over declare if declare ensures that my function will be available no matter when/where in the program I call it?
20:40	justin_smith	josiah14: all declare does is create a var, it doesn't give it any value
20:41	josiah14	ah, understood
20:41	justin_smith	you eventually need to use def, or defn, or intern, or ... something to assign that value
20:41	josiah14	so I would have to use defn and declare together for functions
20:41	josiah14	that makes sense.
20:42	justin_smith	,(declare f)
20:42	clojurebot	#'sandbox/f
20:42	justin_smith	,f
20:42	clojurebot	#<Unbound Unbound: #'sandbox/f>
20:42	josiah14	I'm feeling that Clojure is going to be fairly easy to pick up for me given I already know Haskell
20:43	josiah14	I wasn't sure how much my knowledge would xfer, but knowing Java already, and knowing Haskell, it feels sort of like, oh, I get it
20:43	nullptr`	josiah14: very likely true
20:44	justin_smith	yeah, between Java for the underlying libs / apis, Haskell for the fp concepts, and scheme for the trivial syntax, you're most of the way there
20:44	justin_smith	we also get a few idioms and naming conventions from scheme
20:46	josiah14	ah, gotcha
20:46	josiah14	yah, I don't know Scheme
20:46	justin_smith	out of the three, scheme is the simpler one by far
20:47	josiah14	but my hope is that learning Clojure will get me close enough that i could just pick it up and a week if I wanted to use it for some scripting or something
20:47	josiah14	yah, I hear people praise Scheme all the time for its simplicity
20:48	justin_smith	well, depending on your definition of "scripting", Clojure might not be a great choice. Clojure is best at long-running processes that can use as much RAM as they need to execute tasks efficiently, once minimal resource usage and fast startup time become desirable, Clojure becomes less desirable.
20:49	josiah14	I still have some learning on Haskell to do, but it's for things like, how the 'F' do I use a hashmap, or efficiently parse strings/text, without the use of state, and learning the crazy monadic implementations they have for solving those problems
20:49	justin_smith	but I love using Clojure for long running tasks on dedicated servers, it is awesome for that
20:51	josiah14	justin_smith: for Scripting I was talking about Scheme. I figured, if I learned enough Clojure to build the sample Twitter app from the Rails tutorial by starting with Ring and building up from there, Scheme should be simple enough to pick up when I want something for a short running process
20:51	justin_smith	hh
20:51	justin_smith	yeah, that makes sense
21:36	schrotti	hm can't i use into with swap!?
21:37	schrotti	always get an arity exception
21:37	kenrestivo	example?
21:37	schrotti	(swap tasks into @tasks [(future (inc 1))])
21:37	schrotti	(def tasks (atom []))
21:37	schrotti	+!
21:38	puredanger	the @tasks there is implicit and not needed
21:38	TEttinger	,(let [tasks (atom [])] (swap! tasks into [(future (inc 1))]))
21:38	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: no threads please>
21:38	TEttinger	future ban
21:38	TEttinger	,(let [tasks (atom [])] (swap! tasks into [(inc 1)]))
21:38	clojurebot	[2]
21:38	schrotti	puredanger: thanks
21:39	puredanger	keep in mind that swap functions may be retried in the case of collision so they typically should not have side effects
21:39	TEttinger	the atom syntax is a little tricky at first but quickly gets familiar
21:39	schrotti	thanks for the hints, appreciate it
21:40	nikki93	is the book "clojure programming" from o'reilly still relevant/up-to-date for the latest version of clojure?
21:41	TEttinger	mostly, yeah, I think that's the one I have. I didn't read the whole thing but it explained atom, var, agent, ref very well
21:42	nikki93	cool
21:42	nikki93	and would you guys recommend that vs. "clojure for the brave and true"?
21:42	puredanger	they're both good; different styles
21:42	nikki93	I'm planning to use emacs with cider etc. and have a little bit of lisp experience from land of lisp, and lots of general coding experience
21:43	puredanger	Stu mentioned to me recently that he checks the code examples for every new version of Clojure and he has made 0 code changes from 1.2 through 1.6 for his Clojure book
21:44	puredanger	in general, we try to make things relatively stable across releases
21:45	puredanger	which means that the Clojure books mostly age by not including new stuff rather than actively being wrong
21:45	puredanger	if I get off of irc and work on it instead, we will hopefully get our book into beta in a month or so https://pragprog.com/book/vmclojeco/clojure-applied
21:46	nullptr`	puredanger: looking forward to it!
21:46	puredanger	I'm looking forward to being done with it!
21:47	nullptr`	speaking of "new stuff", is there any plan to cover transducers or core.async?
21:47	puredanger	in our book? definitely.
21:48	nullptr	that's great, both i think could benefit from extended coverage
21:48	puredanger	unfortunately I spend my days making the stuff I wrote the night before out of date
21:48	kenrestivo	+1 for async. it seems most of the knowledge of it is folklore still.
21:48	puredanger	we will not be a canonical or exhaustive resource, but I think it will have more coverage than anything else out there
21:49	kenrestivo	there's an art form to using it right, i think
21:49	puredanger	I think a ~100 pg short book only on core.async would be killer
21:49	puredanger	I'm not going to write it :)
21:49	kenrestivo	one can quickly get into a kind of async hell with channels everywhere and trying to keep track of all the different kinds of messages that can be sent/received
21:50	nullptr	agreed. you probably know the people who are qualified, talk them into it!
21:50	gfredericks	call it One Weird Macro
21:50	puredanger	I don't think Tim B has any interest. Someone tell Stuart to do it. :)
21:51	kenrestivo	are there oddities of transducers which need documenting? i watched rich's presentation, and after hearing his analogy to peeling apples, it all made sense
21:51	puredanger	plenty :)
21:51	nullptr	gfredericks: ha!
21:51	puredanger	making new ones all the time :)
21:52	kenrestivo	i haven't used them in production yet. waiting for 1.7
21:52	nullptr	yeah, i think weird eager/lazy implications could consume quite a few pages
21:52	puredanger	some of the benchmarking I've done is really promising - I think when used pervasively, they are going to be really important for some applications
21:53	puredanger	for example, you can see a bit of it at http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1546 where I've been reworking vec
21:55	puredanger	there's a chart attached with a lot of timings. vec on PersistentList (which goes via IReduce paths instead of seq paths) is ~7 secs for 1024 element list vs 28 sec for into.
21:55	puredanger	that's not even transducers but what can sit at the bottom
21:55	puredanger	when the vec stuff there is combined with the Iterable improvements on http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1499, I see similarly big improvements on maps and sets
21:56	puredanger	and I have a few scratch times for a few new transducers in http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1601 (adding distinct, interpose, and map-indexed transducers)
21:57	puredanger	ex: distinct with seq - 821 micro sec vs 43 micro sec for transducer version
21:57	nullptr	wow, juicy stuff
21:57	puredanger	all of those are effectively done and waiting for inclusion still
21:58	puredanger	when you start to combine these so you can get a single very fast pass instead of many layers of sequence functions, it adds up
22:00	puredanger	still in work are new reducible versions of range, cycle, iterate, keys, vals
22:00	nullptr	yes, and given the typical data oriented nature of clojure code this isn't theoretical -- good stuff indeed
22:01	puredanger	I'm finding it pretty easy to put into practice - it does really require you to separate how you think about the algorithm part vs the output part
22:01	puredanger	the two functions to transduce that is
22:06	TEttinger	this is great stuff, puredanger
22:06	TEttinger	speeding up sequential data operations should be a massive boost to idiomatic clojure performance
22:08	puredanger	well, unfortunately you don't get it all for free. you do have to explicitly use transducers but I think that's an easy thing to do in many cases.
22:08	puredanger	when we can integrate Zach's unrolled small collections, I think we will see a lot of programs become automatically faster
22:08	TEttinger	Zach being ztellman?
22:09	puredanger	yeah. while we had the opportunity, I did some code review with him at the conj and I think it should be no problem to get that into 1.8.
22:09	TEttinger	that dude is the clojure performance wizard
22:09	puredanger	this is http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1517 I'm talking about
22:11	puredanger	in service of the vec enhancements, I did some histograms of programs to see typical sizes of collections being passed around. unsurprisingly, tons of collections < 10 elements.
22:13	TEttinger	oh yeah, that's what I'd expect too
22:25	cfleming	puredanger: I want that change.
22:25	puredanger	which?
22:25	cfleming	small collections
22:25	puredanger	me too. but it's not going to make it in 1.7.
22:25	cfleming	I think that's going to be a great addition to Clojure
22:26	cfleming	Yeah, I understand. That's one of those changes I'd consider running a patched version for.
22:26	puredanger	it has some pretty wide impacts - Zach's done the dev work but not the integration part of it. I know of a few problem areas that will need some attention.
22:27	cfleming	Interesting, what are the problems there? I talked to him at the conj, I know that he didn't do the integration to instantiate the unrolled collections.
22:27	cfleming	But that doesn't seem too problematic.
22:27	puredanger	80% of it is easy and then there's the other 80%
22:28	cfleming	Hah.
22:28	puredanger	there's an existing issue with how constant collections are represented in bytecode that Nicola and I have both spent a fair amount of time on and Rich has looked at a couple of patches even.
22:29	puredanger	it mostly comes up right now on PAM/PHM confusion but now we will have not 2 but 8 or 9 or whatever implementations which I think will make it far more obvious
22:29	puredanger	and extend to vectors
22:30	cfleming	Ok, interesting. Is there a jira issue for that?
22:30	puredanger	presumably PAM goes away - that will impact some stuff but I'm not really sure what
22:30	puredanger	yeah….
22:30	cfleming	Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how much code inadvertently relies on PAM being sorted.
22:31	puredanger	a couple actually
22:31	puredanger	well that aspect is retained by Zach's collections
22:31	cfleming	Ah ok.
22:31	puredanger	not sorted - ordered
22:31	cfleming	Yeah, maintained in insertion order is a better way to put it.
22:31	Wild_Cat	what changes are being considered for small collections?
22:31	emaczen	Does anyone have experience configuring MongoDB with a Luminus webapp?
22:31	puredanger	some tickets - http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1093
22:32	puredanger	Wild_Cat: see http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1517
22:32	Wild_Cat	also, Guest1882 is spamming in queries. Any ops there?
22:32	cfleming	Wild_Cat: Also see http://blog.factual.com/using-clojure-to-generate-java-to-reimplement-clojure, it's a good read.
22:32	puredanger	oh yeah, much better pointer :)
22:34	puredanger	someone has suggested adding more ops here and I'd be happy to do that but I'm not sure how to make that happen or who exactly current ops are
22:35	Wild_Cat	puredanger, cfleming: excellent, reading that now. Thanks.
22:35	justin_smith	puredanger: I know technomancy has ops
22:35	cfleming	puredanger: I'm also dying to use transducers in Cursive, I use sequences all over the place, and I have a ton of use cases for reduce-like things that are a pain to implement using actual reduce (mostly 1-N transforms, or M-N transforms).
22:36	cfleming	I'm hoping I'll be able to provide a quickfix to auto-convert threaded forms to transducer use.
22:36	puredanger	cfleming: I hope that you can use them soon :)
22:36	hiredman	technomancy is/was the newest op, but he isn't in?
22:36	puredanger	cfleming: in some cases that's obvious but in others I think it really requires rethinking parts of your program
22:37	puredanger	like merely replacing sequence transformations with transducers wrapped in a sequence call is probably not what you really want
22:37	cfleming	puredanger: Yeah, no doubt. I need to try some manual translations to get an idea of how to do it first - any suggestions for tricky cases welcome.
22:37	puredanger	but I haven't really done this kind of refactoring on any scale so maybe there are
22:38	cfleming	Right, but as long as it produces equivalent working code, it's probably a good start to a refactoring, and should be faster.
22:38	cfleming	I'd probably mostly want to convert to transduce, which is not exactly equivalent but mostly.
22:38	puredanger	probably. it also has different laziness semantics though. in many cases, you won't notice but in some you will
22:39	puredanger	cfleming: transduce is importantly different in separating the transformation from the final reducing function
22:39	cfleming	Yeah, no doubt. Still, since it's a manual change I can assume the user knows what they're doing.
22:40	cfleming	puredanger: Yeah, like I say I haven't done any of this manually yet so I'm still not sure what I want. But I'm hopeful that I can provide some automatic translations that will be pretty helpful.
22:40	puredanger	which will automatically use transients if possible
22:41	cfleming	I'm planning to implement a new duplicated code inspection in v14, so hopefully it'll also be able to automatically suggest extracting common transformations.
22:41	puredanger	cool
22:42	cfleming	Yeah - I'm imagining a series of options for the transfomation - switch to sequence, switch to transduce with into etc.
22:42	puredanger	there are definitely some common patterns
22:42	cfleming	When I get a moment I'll try it out and send it to you guys to try out - you've done this a lot more than me.
22:43	cfleming	Thanks for that JIRA pointer BTW, interesting.
22:44	puredanger	being able to switch something like (->> s (filter odd?) (map inc) (reduce +)) into (transduce (comp (filter odd?) (map inc)) + s) would be cool
22:45	andyf	Is an email to clojure-Dev nominating other ops a way to proceed ?
22:45	puredanger	I don't even think that's necessary?
22:45	puredanger	just whoever can do the thing needs to do the thing
22:46	puredanger	(I am a pretty dumb irc user so I don't even know how to do whatever I would need to do but I'm sure that's google-able :)
22:46	cfleming	puredanger: Right, that should be relatively straightforward, as long as the thread form only contains core seq functions.
22:47	cfleming	Since the user has to explicitly request the transformation, as long as it doesn't totally break code I think it'll be useful.
22:47	justin_smith	puredanger: whoever has ops now has the power to add other users to the list of people who can get ops. The right way to do it is to register them as people who can get ops via chanserv, and then they can ask chanserv for ops priveleges whenever needed.
22:47	puredanger	the second half of that says things I don't understand but I am on board :)
22:48	justin_smith	puredanger: chanserv is an automated thing - you say "I want my privs" and if you are on the right list it turns those privs on
22:48	puredanger	the next time I see technomancy on here I'll ask him about it
22:48	puredanger	where "you" == some registered nick?
22:49	kenrestivo	for some reason, the discussion of unrolling loops me reminds me of f_unroll_loops and gentoo
22:49	justin_smith	puredanger: yeah, "/msg chanserv help" for the basics
22:53	puredanger	thx
22:53	justin_smith	I think amalloy would make a good op
22:54	puredanger	for sure
22:55	amalloy	last time this came up, technomancy found out he had some kind of limited ops and couldn't promote anyone else
22:55	justin_smith	who does chanserv think is in control?
22:55	puredanger	ah
22:55	justin_smith	chanserv says rhickey
22:56	puredanger	he's on here all the time :)
22:56	justin_smith	well, rhickey can just do a quick login and give full ops to technomancy, and then technomancy can do the rest
22:57	puredanger	does that mean that no one has rights? probably chouser too I'd guess.
22:57	justin_smith	maybe someone else has those privs - but rhickey definitely does
22:58	kenrestivo	last @'s i've seen in recent years have been chouser and technomancy
23:04	puredanger	good times…. http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2008-02-01.html
23:05	justin_smith	nice
23:08	puredanger	in putting together the data for the conj timeline shirt I went back and read a ton of old #clojure logs and commit logs - so weird to be able to travel back to that time with such high fidelity
23:08	puredanger	it repeatedly freaked me out to see things get developed in java and c# in parallel too
23:10	hiredman	nostalgia as a service
23:10	schrotti	hehe
23:27	hiredman	my first interactions with a number of past and present coworkers are preserved in the logs of #clojure
23:35	kenrestivo	~seen rhickey
23:35	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
23:35	lasericus	Would anyone be so kind as to tell me why this expression ((partial assoc {:text "flarp"} :id) (-> {:foo 45} vals first)) evaluates to {:id 45, :text "flarp"} while this expression (-> {:foo 45} vals first (partial assoc {:text "flarp"} :id)) reduces to a partially-applied function?
23:35	justin_smith	$seen rhickey
23:35	lazybot	rhickey was last seen quitting 76 weeks and 1 day ago.
23:35	kenrestivo	$seen chouser
23:35	lazybot	chouser was last seen joining on clojure 4 weeks and 4 days ago.
23:35	kenrestivo	$seen technomanc
23:35	lazybot	I have never seen technomanc.
23:35	kenrestivo	$seen technomancy
23:35	lazybot	technomancy was last seen talking on #leiningen 4 hours and 47 minutes ago.
23:36	kenrestivo	alright, there's the relevant metrics
23:38	TEttinger	lasericus: -> inserts the data that was returned by the previous threaded form as the first argument to the next form. (partial assoc {:text "flarp"} :id)) becomes (partial :foo assoc {:text "flarp"} :id)) there
23:39	TEttinger	I'm guessing that's the problem
23:39	TEttinger	you can defn the fn earlier or use let
23:39	lasericus	TEttinger: Interesting. Let me riddle what you just typed for a moment.
23:39	kenrestivo	you could try the hack of (#(assoc ....))
23:41	kenrestivo	yeah, the -> is sticking the output of "first" after partial. you could try hacking it to use ->> instead ....
23:41	kenrestivo	or, when i find myself having to do nasty hacks to make a perfectly OCD -> thread, i give up and just use nested parens instead
23:41	justin_smith	also, you can stick ->> inside ->
23:41	kenrestivo	sometimes aspberger's isn't really an advantage.
23:42	lasericus	I would imagine - now that I'm re-reading the ->> docs - that simply replacing -> with ->> in my above example would have resulted in the desired behavior (given that the result of the form immediately before partial would be used as the last argument to partial).
23:42	justin_smith	,(-> {:foo 45} vals first (->> (assoc {:text "flarp"} :id)))
23:42	clojurebot	{:id 45, :text "flarp"}
23:43	justin_smith	,(->> {:foo 45} vals first (assoc {:text "flarp"} :id)) ; actually
23:43	clojurebot	{:id 45, :text "flarp"}
23:43	justin_smith	but sometimes there is reason to use the prior version
23:43	justin_smith	you don't even want partial there
23:44	lasericus	justin_smith: Bizarre. It appears to me that the expression (assoc {:text "flarp"} :id) would result in an ArityException.
23:44	justin_smith	lasericus: macros
23:45	justin_smith	->> doesn't do anything at runtime, it transforms the input before it is compiled
23:45	lasericus	justin_smith: Ah, yes. Thanks for the help.
23:53	TEttinger	lasericus: aspberger's is awesome for maintaining focus, so are adderall and its family of stimulants. with their powers combined, they form THE ATTENTION SQUAD!
23:54	TEttinger	err, ^ kenrestivo
23:59	kenrestivo	lazybot: no, assoc needs to know what key to assoc to , and what data to stuff in there. if you just do (assoc feh :meh) there's someting missing