#clojure – 2014-11-26

2014-11-26

01:48	zRecursive	(doc ->)
01:48	clojurebot	"([x & forms]); Threads the expr through the forms. Inserts x as the second item in the first form, making a list of it if it is not a list already. If there are more forms, inserts the first form as the second item in second form, etc."
04:12	scizo	Is there anyone here that might have some pointers on why the readers from data_readers.clj are not being used?
04:12	scizo	They are being loaded into data-readers.
04:13	scizo	But I am still getting the error clojure.lang.ExceptionInfo: No reader function for tag
04:47	dan_b	sorry if this has been asked a zillion times - does anyone know what happened to the aleph wiki? apparently there used to be such a thing at https://github.com/ztellman/aleph/wiki/
04:48	dan_b	or failing that, anyone point me at some code for doing http streaming with aleph?
05:53	sqd	my core.async code involving lots of subscriptions and go loops seems to continue running even if i stop the original data source channel. is there a simple pattern for looping over a channel that stops nicely when the channel is closed?
05:54	sqd	i currently have a lot of (go (while (do-something (<! ch)))) loops
05:57	sqd	i guess i could do something with the nil value returned by <! on closed channels
05:58	ordnungswidrig	sdq: yes, that's the common pattern, sth. like (go (loop (if-let [x (<! ch)] (do something) (recur)))
06:09	sqd	ordnungswidrig: thanks
06:22	justin_smith	sqd: yeah, you should be basing your recursion on what comes from the channel, because closed channels return nil and you can end up in an infinite loop if "do-something" doesn't return nil from a nil input with the while version
06:25	daniel_	can anyone explain why #'app is always used to get the server to pickup changes to the app definition?
06:26	daniel_	i unserstand that #'app is the var and app is a symbol pointing to the var
06:26	justin_smith	daniel_: when a var is passed to the server process, then resolution of that var is done at each invocation of the var
06:26	justin_smith	daniel_: if you pass the function, that function cannot ever change
06:26	justin_smith	the same function is used every time
06:27	daniel_	and a symbol is a function which calls itself and looks up the var
06:27	justin_smith	daniel_: at the time that the server is invoked
06:28	justin_smith	not inside the functions making up the server
06:28	justin_smith	so it's a one time lookup
06:28	daniel_	i see, and then the result is 'cached'?
06:28	justin_smith	the args are fully resolved before the function is even called
06:28	justin_smith	one sec, it's a bit noisy to do with the bots, I will make a refheap
06:33	justin_smith	https://www.refheap.com/94025 daniel_: demonstrated here
06:34	justin_smith	an http server is like bar in that example, it takes a callable thing and calls it later
06:34	justin_smith	notice that when passed a var, what bar does changes when the var changes
06:34	justin_smith	but when passed a function, it does not change
06:36	mavbozo	(inc justin_smith)
06:36	lazybot	⇒ 148
06:39	justin_smith	this is useful at dev time, but there is an overhead for the repeated var lookup. In fact there is a performance trick to bind frequently accessed functions as function args or let bindings over a loop to reduce var lookups and boost speed.
06:39	justin_smith	usually this won't be your bottleneck though, but it's useful to know for when it might be
06:44	daniel_	overhead was going to be my next question
06:45	daniel_	ok makes sense
06:46	daniel_	symbols are immutable, vars aren't
06:46	justin_smith	functions are immutable
06:47	justin_smith	symbols are resolved to functions before other functions see them
06:47	justin_smith	(or other (usually non-var) values)
06:50	daniel_	somehow i thought that a symbol pointed to a var which pointed to a function
06:50	daniel_	and that if you changed the function that a var pointed to, the symbol pointed to that same var so would also change
06:50	thearthur	just to put it anohter way, when you create an instance of the server, that specific instance has a pointer to the function to call on reach request. If you make another instnce of the server it could use a different function.
06:51	daniel_	but you can't change a function, you create a new one
06:51	thearthur	if you pass it a var as it's function then it will still call the same "function" (the var) every time, and the var will forward this to the current function
06:52	daniel_	so the symbol has already resolved to the first function, it only resolves the var once
06:53	thearthur	yes, if you pass a symbol that resolves to a function, by way of a var, then the var is only resolved once
06:56	daniel_	maketh perfect sense
07:25	katox	oops, a deep trap to fall in http://cemerick.com/2010/08/19/case-insensitive-filesystems-vs-aot-compiled-clojure/
07:25	aka	I'm a long time vim user and am looking to use emacs as my clojure IDE... any suggested reading or links?
07:26	katox	in which one can get by using this lib https://github.com/qerub/camel-snake-kebab in lein deps
07:26	pandeiro	aka: C-h i
07:26	weavejes_	aka: Are you planning on using evil mode?
07:27	aka	I just decided to give emacs a go. Not sure if I should or not.
07:27	aka	It would probably get me going faster but I wonder if it would be better in the long run to just go full throttle emacs
07:27	justin_smith	aka: cider is notoriously problematic to update, if you ever decide to change versions after installing, clojure-mode and all related compiled elisp (elc) files should be deleted or else things will break in really weird ways
07:27	pandeiro	justin_smith: don't scare the guy!
07:28	justin_smith	aka: I switched to evil mode, because the chord keys were killing my fingers
07:28	justin_smith	pandeiro: one should be afraid of cider. It's easy to break.
07:28	weavejester	justin_smith: I haven't had that many problems with cider. The main issue is that cider defaults to the snapshot version.
07:28	justin_smith	pandeiro: not hyperbole or dissing. I use it. It's just not easy to change versions.
07:28	justin_smith	weavejester: I have had all sorts of problems with cider.
07:28	aka	I do love my vim navigation
07:29	justin_smith	weavejester: and not from snapshots.
07:29	weavejester	Now that 0.8 is released, I've been considering using melpa-stable instead
07:29	aka	is there an alternative to cider that I should consider?
07:29	aka	ahh the joys of jumping into something new
07:29	justin_smith	weavejester: I had to back off from 0.7.0 to 0.6.0 to get things working.
07:29	weavejester	aka: Not really. I think it's still the best tool for the job.
07:29	aka	okay cool
07:29	pandeiro	aka: cider's growing pains are mostly behind it i think; i'd jump in
07:29	weavejester	justin_smith: Have you tried 0.8.0?
07:30	aka	okay cool
07:30	justin_smith	not since it hit stable.
07:30	weavejester	aka: evil-mode is a pretty good Vi emulation layer.
07:30	pandeiro	aka: and seriously, C-h i -- the most amazing thing about emacs is the self-documenting part imo
07:30	justin_smith	weavejester: I briefly tried it in the development state, things were broken, I switched to an earlier version
07:30	aka	pandeiro: thank you :)
07:31	aka	weavejester: does evil-mode interfere with any of emacs key bindings?
07:31	weavejester	aka: Not that I've noticed.
07:32	aka	okay cool
07:32	justin_smith	aka: only some, and you can go into emacs mode for those. (ie. Ctrl-e in insert mode)
07:32	aka	good to know
07:32	justin_smith	and of course you can hit Esc $ instead of Ctrl-e
07:33	weavejester	aka: My emacs.d directory is here if you happen to want to use it for ideas, or as a starting point: https://github.com/weavejester/dotfiles/tree/master/emacs.d
07:33	aka	If I'm not careful I will enter paralysis by analysis mode. I better just jump in.
07:33	aka	ahh perfect thank you
07:33	weavejester	aka: Which OS are you using?
07:34	aka	for the most part Ubuntu
07:34	aka	some OS X
07:34	aka	but most my dev is in the terminal of an ubuntu server
07:35	weavejester	aka: I use the emacs GUI, so I haven't tried it at the terminal
07:35	aka	I might go the emacs gui route first
07:35	aka	dev locally on my mbp
07:36	justin_smith	aka: you can edit remote files via the emacs GUI version with tramp. It works nicely.
07:36	justin_smith	aka: under the hood it connects via ssh, and makes the changes remotely when you save. IIRC it does this using ed.
07:36	weavejester	aka: Though having just tried it, the terminal version of my emacs setup works pretty well. The only think I'd disable is the menu-bar.
07:36	aka	weavejester: noted
07:37	weavejester	Since I use OSX, there's no reason not to have the menu bar on for the GUI mode, since it's ubiquitous anyway.
07:37	weavejester	Oh, and I use cask
07:38	weavejester	So you need to run "brew install cask" or whatever it is under Ubuntu, and then "cd ~/.emacs.d && cask install"
07:38	pandeiro	weavejester: aka: i use cask too but wouldnt recommend it at this point
07:38	pandeiro	it's just one more moving part
07:38	weavejester	pandeiro: Wouldn't it be hard to know what packages you've installed without it?
07:38	pandeiro	once you're fluent in emacs and managing your packages more carefully, there's more to gain by having something like that
07:39	weavejester	True...
07:39	pandeiro	weavejester: not when they're right there in init.el
07:39	aka	so ignore cask for now?
07:39	justin_smith	aka C-x C-f ssh://user@host:/path/to/file
07:39	weavejester	Maybe I should make a simplified version of my config.
07:39	pandeiro	weavejester: aka: for instance - https://github.com/pandeiro/dotemacs/blob/master/init.el#L6
07:39	weavejester	aka: I just mention it because I use cask in my config.
07:39	aka	any suggested way of installing emacs on OSX? just brwe install ?
07:40	pandeiro	the important part there is the package.el boilerplate for including the third-party repos and the simple way of iterating over packages and installing
07:40	weavejester	brew install emacs will work. There's also a mac-emacs version I prefer
07:40	weavejester	brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport && brew install emacs-mac
07:40	aka	k thx
07:41	pandeiro	aka: btw that emacs config is ancient and the packages are not what i use, just pointing to the boilerplate part and the iteration mechanism in elisp
07:41	mavbozo	is aquamacs good for clojure? cos i saw rich hickey use it in last clojure conj
07:41	aka	thanks for all the info and help guys
07:41	aka	I'll soon be flaming vim users!
07:42	aka	jk I still love me some vim
07:42	weavejester	Emacs is my OS, Vi is still my editor ;)
07:43	justin_smith	aka: after a little while using vi, followed by a long time with emacs (and a bit of the signs of rsi coming on) I like the emacs features, and the vi keybindings
07:43	justin_smith	so evil seems like it will be good...
07:44	weavejester	Does anyone happen to use paxedit, out of interest?
07:44	justin_smith	no, this is the first I have heard of it
07:44	weavejester	It's a more context-aware paredit
07:44	weavejester	Apparently :)
07:45	aka	I love vim's text object motions... glad I will still get them in emacs
07:45	aka	that will make the transition much faster
07:46	aka	do you guys use paredit?
07:46	aka	or similar?
07:46	mavbozo	smartparens
07:46	pandeiro	weavejester: i still use paredit and probably only 25% of its functions but just C-k alone is gold
07:46	justin_smith	yes, paredit and evil don't interact as nicely as I would like, but paredit does some cool stuff if you stay in regular emacs, or insert mode
07:47	weavejester	justin_smith: I've gotten quite far with evil-paredit and some of my own movement functions.
07:47	kungi	Does anyone use ediff for git merging?
07:47	justin_smith	oh, I had not heard of evil-paredit
07:47	weavejester	justin_smith: It's not as useful as it sounds :)
07:48	kungi	weavejester: evil-paredit is great :-)
07:48	weavejester	justin_smith: It just ensures that vim commands don't break paredit.
07:48	justin_smith	makes sense
07:49	weavejester	I'm still working on my evil/paredit setup, but I do have: https://github.com/weavejester/dotfiles/blob/master/emacs.d/init.el#L113
07:49	weavejester	I might try out paxedit on the weekend.
07:51	aka	you guys likely saved me a shit load of time
07:53	kungi	weavejester: Thanks for the config example
08:20	clgv	(inc #clojure)
08:20	lazybot	⇒ 8
08:41	rurumate	,n
08:41	rurumate	[2:33:12 PM] Samuel Geiger: origin:release/1.1.0
08:41	rurumate	[2:33:33 PM] Samuel Geiger: bitte da nur noch sachen rein mergen wenn die Tickets dazu fix Version 1.1.0 haben
08:41	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: n in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
08:41	rurumate	oops
08:42	clgv	rurumate: you are german as well?
08:42	rurumate	thank you gnu/linux for completely sucking at copy paste
08:42	rurumate	clgv: of course not, why do you ask
08:42	clgv	:P
08:42	rurumate	so here's a question,
08:42	rurumate	,(an-jvm/analyze '(fn [n] (when (pos? n) (recur (dec n)))))
08:42	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such namespace: an-jvm, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
08:42	rurumate	one moment
08:44	rurumate	,(clojure.tools.analyzer.jvm/analyze '(fn [n] (when (pos? n) (recur (dec n)))))
08:44	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.tools.analyzer.jvm>
08:44	rurumate	ok so that doesn't even work
08:44	justin_smith	neither of the bots have that lib
08:44	rurumate	can we add clojore.tools.analyzer.jvm to clojurebot, please?
08:45	rurumate	anyway that wasn't the question
08:45	rurumate	I'll make a paste of the output
08:47	rurumate	dang, how do I pprint to a file?
08:47	rurumate	I know I can bind out, any faster way?
08:48	mavbozo	(spit f (with-out-str (pprint ))
08:50	rurumate	mavbozo: brilliant, thank
08:51	rurumate	so this is the output of (clojure.tools.analyzer.jvm/analyze '(fn [n] (when (pos? n) (recur (dec n))))): https://www.refheap.com/94028
08:52	rurumate	why are there more than one blocks with the same loop-id?
08:53	justin_smith	it looks like all of the blocks have the same loop id?
08:53	Bronsa	rurumate: only the method node has :loop-id, the other instances of :loop-id are in the :env of the method body nodes, to propagate it until
08:54	Bronsa	until it reaches a recur or another loop/fn
08:54	rurumate	oh, of course
08:54	rurumate	I forgot about the env
08:54	rurumate	these trees are huge, how do you navigate / search them?
08:55	rurumate	for instance how do I find all :loop-id nodes, along with their paths (get-in style)
08:55	Bronsa	rurumate: I usually just use -> and explore the nodes via `keys`
08:55	rurumate	if I had that I'd quicky see that all but one have :env in their path
08:56	rurumate	Bronsa: you can't really do exhaustive search that way, unless you already know where you want to look
08:56	rurumate	it's just too much work
08:56	arav93	Is anyone familiar with core.typeD?
08:57	Bronsa	rurumate: well you have the AST quickref that you can use to see what info is in what nodes + what children a node has
08:57	Bronsa	rurumate: if you want to query the AST there's also a datomic datalog interface
08:58	rurumate	Bronsa: I was hoping for some tricks with nested maps in general
08:58	rurumate	oh datalog
08:58	rurumate	datomic, is that open source?
08:58	Bronsa	no
08:58	rurumate	there must be something. it's just some trees, and we have lisp
09:11	rurumate	Bronsa: here it is with all the :env removed https://www.refheap.com/94029
09:12	sqd	is there a function similar to core.async/reduce that yields everytime the source channel yields? e.g. to create a counter
09:13	rurumate	Bronsa: the's a node with :loop-id loop_14182 appears only once, but nothing refers to it
09:13	rurumate	shouldn't something point to that?
09:14	martinklepsch	I'm trying to get a clostache template working that contains a fair chunk of JSON that's generated via chesire. now one field in that json contains a <script> tag and I can't figure out how to properly escape double quotes - or maybe it's something completely differnt
09:15	Bronsa	rurumate: .. the env points to that ...
09:15	avrakotos	Hi all. Clojure noob here. Downloaded Counterclockwise and trying to simply create a clojure project. But I get an Exception when creating it. "unable to find valid certification path to requested target - Reason: Exception while creating new project. "
09:15	rurumate	heh
09:16	Bronsa	rurumate: were you expecting a :loop-id field on the :recur node?
09:16	clgv	avrakotos: what did you download?
09:16	rurumate	Bronsa: yes
09:16	martinklepsch	does anyone have experience with chesire/clostache and encoutered similar problems?
09:16	Bronsa	rurumate: I mean, I can add that but it's not going to add any info that's not already there
09:16	rurumate	Bronsa: so it's in the :env of the :recur node?
09:16	Bronsa	rurumate: yes
09:16	avrakotos	clgv: I first tried using the counterclockwise plugin for eclipse. Got the same error there. Then I downloaded the counterclockwise standalone exe and also got that error
09:17	rurumate	ok cool thanks Bronsa
09:17	clgv	avrakotos: which os? I tried the latest standalone on linux 64 bit last week
09:17	avrakotos	clgv: win 7 64 bit
09:18	clgv	avrakotos: can you post a complete stacktrace on refheap.com?
09:18	avrakotos	clgv: does the counterclockwise or leiningen need to connect to some online server?
09:19	ordnungswidrig	avrakotos: leiningen will self-install on the first invocation
09:19	clgv	avrakotos: oh right it might be the leiningen integration that wants to download the default clojure dependency
09:19	avrakotos	clgv: I am currently at work?
09:19	avrakotos	clgv: whops
09:20	avrakotos	clgv: i am at work, and we have a proxy, so that is probably it then
09:20	clgv	avrakotos: check the docs, I believe there are proxy settings. maybe the same you'd use for eclipse in general
09:21	avrakotos	clgv: Its probably the proxy then. Thanks for the help =)
09:23	ordnungswidrig	avrakotos: looks like an ssl issue to me.
09:30	atankanow	this may be a bigger modeling question but ... let's say i have a set of steps nicely set up with the thread last operation, e.g. (->> data (step-1 arg1) (step-2 arg1) (step-3)); now i realize steps 1 and 2 need to be run for a set of configurations, e.g. (for [k (configs)] (step-1 arg1 k)) ... ; is there an idiomatic way to handle this? I've considered (1) wrapping for loop around step-1 and step-2 and then flattening the r
09:30	atankanow	(2) passing step-1 and step-2 to a reducing function
09:35	weavejester	atankanow: Are your functions side effectful?
09:36	atankanow	hmmm ....
09:37	atankanow	they do rely on IO (state of the filesystem)
09:37	weavejester	You're relying on the return value, though?
09:38	weavejester	If so it sounds like you want a reduce
09:39	atankanow	yes ... i want the return values, so i can use reduce to get a single list as output
09:40	atankanow	so "for" is idiomatically for side-effecting fns
09:41	Frozenlock	I think it's 'doseq' if you just want the side effects.
09:45	atankanow	completely unrelated discussion, what is your IRC client of choice?
09:46	clrnd	irssi
09:46	mavbozo	emacs's erc
09:46	schmir	emacs rcirc
09:46	avrakotos	ordnungswidrig: It was indeed an SSL issue. We have a server that terminates all HTTPS traffic into the company. I had to use a proxy. Works now :) Thanks for the help
09:53	Frozenlock	atankanow: emacs's erc
09:57	weavejester	I've been trying out Textual 5
10:01	atankanow	clojure was the only thing that could make me switch from vim -> emacs, but now that i'm in this universe I'm not sure how to get out ... i'm trying emacs circe now
10:08	rurumate	Bronsa: :fn-method and :recur both have :loop-id
10:08	rurumate	see https://www.refheap.com/94036
10:09	rurumate	neither of these are part of an :env
10:10	Bronsa	rurumate: right so you dissoc'ed it wrongly before :P I don't recall all the node fields by heart myself
10:11	rurumate	but why you want to leave atankanow? emacs is love, emacs is life
10:12	rurumate	Bronsa: I'm confuse. There are now 2 nodes with the same node id. Just how does tools.emitter figure out where the jump is supposed to go?
10:12	rurumate	*with the same loop id
10:13	Bronsa	rurumate: the only loop targets are :fn-method, :method and :loop
10:13	Bronsa	rurumate: the loop-id in those is a label, the loop-id in :recur signals the loop target
10:14	Bronsa	rurumate: no loop target will have the same loop-id ever. multiple recurs inside the same loop target will have the same loop-id however
10:18	rurumate	Bronsa: thanks for these important info
10:18	rurumate	is there a wiki or something about these rules?
10:21	Bronsa	rurumate: it's documented in the quickspec for t.a.jvm
10:22	rurumate	I see. Thanks for taking the time to answer Bronsa
10:23	rurumate	Bronsa: so there is no need to go search for loop-id inside the :env, right?
10:24	Bronsa	right. it's just internal info that the analyzer uses for some passes
10:24	rurumate	cool. I feel I'm making some progress. This sure is fun
10:25	clgv	rurumate: what are you trying to do?
10:25	Bronsa	rurumate: sorry if I said otherwise before -- I was hacking t.a and didn't check before replying
10:25	rurumate	nothing particular, just interested in tools.analyzer
10:27	clgv	learning exercises
10:28	clgv	what is usually used to escape arbitrary text before displaying it in an html? some function from hiccup?
10:28	clgv	ah there is hiccup.util/escape
10:29	rurumate	clgv: if you're on emacs, try string-edit
10:30	rurumate	not sure if that suits your use case though
10:30	clgv	rurumate: it's data loaded on runtime
10:34	mikerod	is there anything wrong with using `reduce-kv` to build data structures other than maps?
10:34	mikerod	e.g. reduce-kv (fn [c k v] (conj c [k (inc v)])) [] {:a 10 :b 20}) ;= [[:b 21] [:a 11]]
10:35	mikerod	I believe it is an optimized way to reduce over a map
10:35	mikerod	However, does it need to produce a map for any particular reason?
10:35	mikerod	I typically only see examples of the form: (reduce-kv (fn [m k v] (assoc m k (inc v))) {} {:a 10 :b 20})
10:36	mikerod	Which ;= {:a 11, :b 21}
10:36	mikerod	I'm guessing the answer to my question is "no, it doesn't matter"
10:36	clgv	mikerod: you can build anything you like with it
10:36	clgv	mikerod: you are right, it saves overhead when reducing over a map
10:37	mikerod	clgv: thanks, I was just clarifying on that due to lack of examples suggesting otherwise. It'd make sense that you may want to reduce over a map into some non-coll at all sometimes even, so that makes sense.
10:37	clgv	mikerod: building vectors or calculating aggregated values should be pretty common as well
10:39	clgv	mikerod: in the above example you can get more speed with a transient result map
10:40	mikerod	clgv: ah yes, (persistent! (reduce-kv (fn [m k v] (assoc! m k (inc v))) (transient {}) {:a 10 :b 20}))
10:41	clgv	mikerod: exactly
10:41	clgv	mikerod: btw. if you need that pattern more often, the helper function `update-vals` wants to be written ;)
10:47	Glenjamin	i tend to call it fmap, based on the function from algo generic
10:47	gfredericks	plumbing.core/map-vals
10:47	Glenjamin	https://github.com/clojure/algo.generic/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/algo/generic/functor.clj#L33
10:51	mikerod	clgv: hah that is true. I guess I have often done something liek this: (zipmap (keys m) (map my-fn (vals m)))
10:52	mikerod	but for some reason `zipmap` does not use transients I suppose
10:52	SparkySparkyBoom	https://www.refheap.com/0a02d2f005f8c1fce9d3fc45e
10:52	SparkySparkyBoom	how would i make it so that i can pass a list as arguments of a function
10:54	SparkySparkyBoom	ah i figured it out
10:54	SparkySparkyBoom	the apply function works
10:55	Bronsa	mikerod: there's a ticket in JIRA for making zipmap use transients
10:56	Bronsa	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1005
10:56	Bronsa	mikerod: vote if you're interested
10:57	mikerod	Bronsa: thanks, yes I'd like this
11:00	fairuz	hey guys, using liberator, how to set the Access-Control-Allow-Origin in the response header? I'm now getting the cors problem
11:00	CookedGryphon	Has anyone else come across the problem that midje's test runner is giving an exit code of 0 when errors are thrown in core.test tests?
11:00	CookedGryphon	I just deployed a buggy release thanks to this :(
11:01	clgv	mikerod: but in your case a zipmap with transients would be less efficent than the transient reduce-kv anyway
11:01	mikerod	clgv: I figured that'd be the case
11:02	clgv	woah, you cant get a java 6 jdk without an oracle account?
11:02	mikerod	due to the kv-reduce protocol impl on maps
11:02	clgv	I just wanted to check if my java 6 compatibility claim is actually true
11:03	clgv	humm for java 8 you need no account...
11:05	ghadishayban	Bronsa: zipmap with iterators & transients now... but needs 1.7
11:06	Bronsa	nice
11:07	Bronsa	ghadishayban: how much of a speedup do iterators have over seqs?
11:07	ghadishayban	that will depend on iterators being more pervasive, which was bumped to 1.8 i think
11:08	ghadishayban	a few iterators right now are built upon the seqs, rather than the other way around
11:12	ghadishayban	less alloc is good
11:12	ghadishayban	the whole reason I made a transducible context for Iterables (while totally gross) is so that zipmap can consume it
11:13	ghadishayban	something like (zipmap cols (iterable some-transducer values)) could realize no seqs
11:16	ghadishayban	the whole Seq/Iterator/Reduce trinity is increasingly hard to implement
11:17	ghadishayban	referring to the CLJ-1603 ticket for IReduceInit-able cycle & iterate. the lazy seq version is so elegant:
11:17	ghadishayban	,(source cycle)
11:17	clojurebot	Source not found\n
11:17	ghadishayban	(lazy-seq
11:17	ghadishayban	(when-let [s (seq coll)]
11:17	ghadishayban	(concat s (cycle s)))
11:18	ghadishayban	A shorter transducer version: (sequence cat (repeat coll))
11:18	Glenjamin	watch out, cat isn't lazy - which may or may not be a problem
11:19	ghadishayban	that's probably tolerable in the cycle case, but you're right it's not 100% equiv
11:20	ghadishayban	But a version that is IReduceInit & preserves compatibility with core/cycle is going to have to be a giant implementation
11:20	ghadishayban	And with a giant implementation you lose the favorite property of "obviously correct"
11:21	ghadishayban	,(conj (supers clojure.lang.LazySeq) clojure.lang.IReduceInit)
11:21	clojurebot	#{clojure.lang.ISeq clojure.lang.IReduceInit clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection java.io.Serializable java.util.List ...}
11:29	sqd	is there a straightforward way to request all yields from a core.async channel during the last n milliseconds?
11:44	thearthur	sqd: I don't think that exists
11:46	razum2um	what is more efficient if I don't care about type https://www.refheap.com/b85d84209383136ce1506c895
11:47	stuartsierra	razum2um: probably subvec but I wouldn't expect there to be all that much difference
11:49	razum2um	stuartsierra: btw, is count on vector O(1)? (-> [1 2 3 4] (subvec 1 (dec (count [1 2 3 4])))) would be faster?
11:49	Glenjamin	,(counted? [])
11:49	clojurebot	true
11:49	Glenjamin	i think that means yes
11:50	Glenjamin	(doc counted?)
11:50	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns true if coll implements count in constant time"
11:50	stuartsierra	razum2um: Yes, count on vector is constant-time.
11:50	razum2um	stuartsierra: Glenjamin: thx!
11:51	stuartsierra	As always: profile first, find the hotspots, then try to optimize.
11:55	razum2um	stuartsierra: btw, what do you think about profiling lazyseqed-code with timbre https://github.com/ptaoussanis/timbre/issues/87 ?
11:56	technomancy	~paredit guide is making it easier to grok with purty pictures http://danmidwood.com/content/2014/11/21/animated-paredit.html
11:56	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
12:08	mikos	hello
12:08	mikos	anyone got any recommendations on where to start learning about Clojure + sockets?
12:08	mikos	i am trying to write an rtsp client
12:12	clgv	is there a way to set a backlink to the main project (from a nested folder) in a REAME.md in agithub repository
12:12	clgv	?
12:12	clgv	since the relative path ends up in "blob/master" and returns a 404
12:13	arrdem	clgv: I think you can say "/README.md" and github will figure it out.
12:13	andyf_	clgv: absolute path?
12:13	clgv	arrdem: I want to link to the project root, not only the readme
12:14	clgv	andyf_: that's problematic for forking right?
12:16	andyf_	clgv: perhaps. I don?t know if there is a way to do it that meets all of your desires, just ?a way"
12:16	clgv	andyf_: hm ok. guessed so
12:17	andyf_	clgv: have you read this? https://github.com/blog/1395-relative-links-in-markup-files
12:17	clgv	they seem to have forgotten that special case
12:17	clgv	yeah
12:18	clgv	hmm well I'll link to the README then
12:19	jro_	I've [incanter "1.5.5"] in ~/.lein/profiles.clj. After starting the repl and user=> (use 'incanter.core) I will get an exception: CompilerException java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: x (wrong name: X),
12:21	jro_	any pointers where to start to resolve the problem?
12:22	arohner	mikos: clojure sockets are just java sockets
12:23	arohner	mikos: there might be sockets lib for clojure, but I haven't used any
12:24	fatwu	Hello!
12:27	aravindh	what is the defafcto webframework used in clojure that has good community support? I am looking to build an order processing system for an ecommerce client. also what is the database access library used? yesql seems simple to me. any suggestions?
12:40	dbasch	jro_: can you post your profiles.clj on refheap? How are you running the repl?
12:43	jro_	https://www.refheap.com/94042 I can run incanter by setting up a project, and running the repl from its root
12:44	jro_	I'm using lein repl and leiningen 2.4.1 on java8
12:55	technomancy	why not upgrade lein? =)
12:57	andyf_	jro_: Incanter is not a Leiningen plugin, so if you put it in your ~/.lein/profiles.clj by going to the :user key of the top level map, then the :plugins key, then adding it to that vector, that will not work.
12:58	andyf_	jro_: It should work if you add it to a :dependencies vector in a profile that is active when you start 'lein repl'
13:01	jro_	andyf_: it is in the :dependencies -vector, and other deps works fine.
13:02	AlwaysBCoding	anyone know if you can have multi-arity protocol functions? i.e. SomeProtocol (someFunction [this options]) but I want to be able to call someFunction without a second arg and have the options default to {}
13:02	jro_	(use 'incarter.core) seems to launch separate JVM, maybe this causes some problems. However, I'm bit happier now, when it works in a separate project.
13:22	Raynes	Ya know
13:22	Raynes	Coffeescript isn't the worst thing ever.
13:22	Raynes	I tried to h8 but it reminds me enough of Python that I'm comfortable.
13:24	arrdem	Raynes: this is clojure ontopic :P
13:24	Raynes	I'm aware.
13:25	arrdem	k
13:25	Raynes	I figure we're allowed to discuss other languages.
13:25	Raynes	Especially when one of them is regarding a Clojure compilation target ;)
13:26	arrdem	fair enough
13:27	justin_smith	$mail aravindh the Clojure community tends to prefer a selection of libs over frameworks. That said, friend is highly recommended for authentication if you can figure out how to use it, and you can use crossclj.info to get some sense of what libs are widely used. IMHO something as simple as yesql, while recent is likely to be less hassle than a widely used DSL like korma.
13:27	lazybot	Message saved.
13:28	dnolen_	AlwaysBCoding: such things can be done around the protocol w/ a regular function
13:29	atankanow	if you're just talking about multi-arity, you can overload protocol functions, calling a fn of greater arity with default values
13:58	edw	ping
13:59	arrdem	pong
14:00	mikos	thanks, arohner, i'll read into java sockets
14:13	gfredericks	woah
14:13	gfredericks	I just used ;; to comment out a line of #_#_#_
14:14	shem	you rascal!
14:18	l1x	justin_smith: thanks for the help yesterday
14:18	l1x	justin_smith: https://github.com/l1x/hasta-la-vista/blob/master/src/hasta_la_vista/core.clj#L159
14:18	l1x	if you have time and you think i could improve on the code please let me know
14:18	l1x	it runs 1000 times faster than the previous python code
14:18	l1x	so i am happy
14:18	justin_smith	wow, nice
14:20	danielcompton	l1x: idiomatic Clojure would be to import the Java classes so you don't need to reference their fully qualified name
14:20	danielcompton	l1x: also, java.lang is automatically imported so java.lang.Long can be shortened to Long
14:20	justin_smith	and java.lang.* are always already imported, so you can use ^Long instead of ^java.lang.Long
14:21	l1x	danielcompton: which line are you referring to with the first sentence?
14:21	l1x	thanks!
14:21	l1x	i am modifying those
14:21	danielcompton	l1x: https://github.com/l1x/hasta-la-vista/blob/master/src/hasta_la_vista/core.clj#L147-L155
14:21	justin_smith	l1x: that refers to all x.y.z class references
14:21	l1x	so i can skip java.lang
14:21	danielcompton	l1x: but theres other places there as well
14:21	l1x	from the type hints
14:22	danielcompton	l1x: yep
14:22	justin_smith	l1x: right, and you can use import to avoid x.y other places
14:22	l1x	like this? java.lang.System
14:23	justin_smith	(:import (clojure.lang PersistentHashMap PersistentArrayMap ...)) then later you only need to use PersistentHashMap etc. and you can leave out the clojure.lang
14:23	justin_smith	l1x: yeah, that can always just be System
14:23	justin_smith	since it is in java.lang
14:23	l1x	alright i am changing those
14:24	justin_smith	in general nothing in your namespace other than a require / import should have to have a . in the middle
14:25	danielcompton	l1x: https://www.refheap.com/94046
14:25	danielcompton	l1x: Cursive Clojure has great support for those kinds of imports
14:26	l1x	justin_smith: thanks!
14:26	l1x	danielcompton: thanks too!
14:26	l1x	thank you guys I am cleaning it up
14:29	Mendax	lol
14:29	Mendax	morgan freenode
14:29	Mendax	That is hilarious
14:29	justin_smith	l1x: another small thing - you may want to consider moving the definition of work-chan into the inner let block in -main, it helps readability (and often correctness as well) to put a binding into the narrowest scope in which it is used (reduces the amount of context needed as a reader, reduces the number of places something weird can happen)
14:30	l1x	yes sir!
14:31	Mendax	Is this an off topic room?
14:32	dnolen_	Mendax: no
14:33	Mendax	what do you all talk about in this channel yhen?
14:34	clrnd	Mendax, we talk about parentheses
14:34	Mendax	o I c'
14:37	l1x	Mendax: mostly about parentheses and immutability
14:37	l1x	why
14:39	l1x	justin_smith & danielcompton
14:40	l1x	https://github.com/l1x/hasta-la-vista/blob/master/src/hasta_la_vista/core.clj
14:40	l1x	thanks guys!
14:47	justin_smith	also - those "better names for the core.async functions" aren't better names for other people reading the code - we use and often see <! >! <!! >!!, and we aren't familiar with your names at all
14:48	justin_smith	it makes it a bit more complex to actually figure out what that code is doing
14:49	l1x	well yes, but i have non clojure co-workers
14:49	l1x	and their #1 complaint was <!
14:49	justin_smith	and the choice to use pmap inside the threads is something I don't quite get (not that I know it's wrong, just sets off my spider-sense)
14:49	justin_smith	l1x: OK
14:49	l1x	hmm
14:50	l1x	how does pmap work?
14:50	justin_smith	it puts each job on a future, and gives you the results of all the futures
14:50	justin_smith	so it's another layer of dispatching to threads
14:50	l1x	hmmm
14:51	l1x	so i might just use map and see how it impacts the performance
14:51	justin_smith	which may not be helping perf. Compare just using a doseq instead of doall pmap, since this is already being spread across N threads.
14:51	justin_smith	not map, doseq
14:51	l1x	sorry i meant doseq :)
14:51	justin_smith	map is for results, and clearly that is for side effects
14:51	l1x	cool!
14:51	l1x	yes
14:52	justin_smith	definitely test the difference, but you may lose more from the pmap overhead than you gain from yet another layer of threading.
14:52	l1x	absolutely
14:52	l1x	do you know how could i bring all the imported Java code to the same log4j format?
14:53	justin_smith	you may need a properties file for that? not sure.
14:53	l1x	https://www.refheap.com/94048
14:53	l1x	this is how it behaves
14:53	l1x	it seems to be ignoring the properties file
14:55	justin_smith	l1x: where does the properties file end up relative to the classpath?
14:58	l1x	this is the 1 million dollar question
14:58	l1x	i tried everything
15:01	justin_smith	l1x: I think the secret could be that other logging.properties files are in artifacts you are using, there may be some trick to sorting that out and/or you could submit bug reports to the libs that are providing a logging.properties file that shadows yours
15:01	l1x	hmm
15:01	justin_smith	l1x: you could try specifying -Djava.util.loggin.config.file=...
15:01	l1x	i was thinking about an override
15:01	justin_smith	as an arg to the jvm
15:01	justin_smith	^^ see above for overriding the file
15:01	l1x	i see
15:02	l1x	cool!
15:02	l1x	thank you
15:02	justin_smith	you can add -D args to :jvm_opts in lein, but would need to provide them manually for an uberjar
15:03	justin_smith	above, it is logging.config not loggin.config, obviously
15:27	l1x	i am running the jvm with this but it ignores it, thanks anyways
15:27	justin_smith	weird - yeah, I am not sure exactly how that stuff works. You may want to check out clj-logging-config
15:28	l1x	yep
15:28	l1x	thanks anyways!
16:31	sdegutis	I'm tempted to make a cascading if-let macro.
16:32	sdegutis	It would allow multiple forms, and would just if-let all of them recursively.
16:32	sdegutis	Why doesn't if-let already do that?
16:34	crash_ep	The documentation for pipeline/pipeline-async/pipeline-blocking gives insight into how clojure.core (the team) envisions core.async being used in practice for side-effecting work. That is to say, both input and output channels should generally be parameters to the function.
16:34	crash_ep	(I'm still trying to build an intuition for design guidelines in core.async)
16:36	sdegutis	Oh right, everyone's taken the day off for Thanksgiving.
16:38	cfleming	sdegutis: Someone posted to the mailing list with one of those earlier today, I think.
16:39	cfleming	sdegutis: I'm pretty sure one of Christophe Grand's util libs has one, too.
16:39	sdegutis	cfleming: well now I feel a little validated :)
16:39	andyf	sdegutis: cascading if-let comes up once or twice a year on Google group. People disagree on what is "natural behavior" iirc. That and straightforward to write your own
16:40	cfleming	andyf: Right, some of the semantics are a little non-obvious I think, or at least there are design choices to be made there
16:40	sdegutis	andyf: I can see the argument that it might not be intuitive to a first-time user of if-let to transform it into a recursively cascading if-let
16:41	sdegutis	That said, I see the use for a transformative-cascading version, and it seems like it belongs in clojure.core even if under a new name.
16:41	technomancy	there's contention whether multiple clauses should be anded or ored together
16:41	sdegutis	Maybe (if-lets ...)
16:41	sdegutis	technomancy: I don't see where and or or come into play here.
16:41	andyf	sdegutis: Not just that, but disagreements on and/or behavior or something like that
16:41	cfleming	sdegutis: https://github.com/cgrand/utils#if-let-and-when-let
16:41	sdegutis	(if-lets [a 1, b 2] ...) -> (if-let [a 1] (if-let [b 2] ...))
16:42	andyf	sdegutis: What belongs in core is not our call to make
16:42	sdegutis	andyf: that's preposterous, clojure is open source
16:43	sdegutis	andyf: if it were C# or Swift, then sure
16:43	technomancy	lol
16:43	sdegutis	if this isn't a democracy i dont know what is
16:44	cfleming	Clojure is more your benevolent dictatorship
16:45	danneu	back when i thought clojure was open source, i tried fixing a typo
16:45	sdegutis	github.com/clojure/clojure is, sure
16:45	sdegutis	thats 1 of 683 forks
16:46	cfleming	I'd call that more anarchy than democracy :-)
16:46	sdegutis	fair enough
16:48	technomancy	I'm pretty sure we have landed gentry
16:50	andyf	Every open source project is open to arbitrary changes via forking and every one has decision makers who decided what goes in or not
16:50	danneu	'open source' generally refers to the interpretation that's just strict enough to disqualify the modified noun from being, indeed, 'open source'.
16:50	sdegutis	andyf: good point
16:50	sdegutis	danneu: wat
16:54	sdegutis	btw jfyi my test has been failing all mourning because it was an incorrect test
16:54	andyf	I don't know danneu's experience, but many who attempt to contribute to Clojure find the process slower than their liking
16:56	justin_smith	crash_ep: have you looked at the theory underlying core.async, CSP?
16:57	justin_smith	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communicating_sequential_processes
17:01	dbasch	justin_smith: better yet http://www.usingcsp.com/cspbook.pdf
17:02	justin_smith	cool - that was hidden at the bottom of the wiki page
17:02	justin_smith
17:02	justin_smith	(dec evil)
17:02	lazybot	⇒ -1
17:04	dbasch	I had to read that in school (and pay for the book) in the 90s
17:05	justin_smith	I've been looking at Kahn Process Networks lately (which are an incompatible async formalism)
17:05	justin_smith	s/are/is
17:07	dbasch	interesting, apparently amazon is looking for clojure people http://lispjobs.wordpress.com/2014/11/25/clojure-software-development-engineers-amazon-com/
17:07	crash_ep	justin_smith: I'm starting to learn more about it (CSP)
17:08	crash_ep	Clojure's implementation of the ideas seems more flexible/powerful than some of its predecessors, so I'm not sure how much of my time I should dedicate to looking at the more historical coverage of CSP vs reading modern actual core.async-using source code/examples.
17:09	justin_smith	I find that looking at the initial assumed constraints is useful, it lets me look out for "oh, that's why that isn't possible" or "oh, it's a big deal that this is possible, let's look at why it was done that way"
17:10	justin_smith	also, core.async was made by people who think it is a good idea to read the old papers before implementing things :)
17:12	justin_smith	so, whether they are right or wrong on that account, things they make likely reflect that opinion
17:17	crash_ep	dbasch: justin_smith: I'll take a look at Hoare's book, thanks for the link
17:21	kenrestivo	dbasch: i have to wonder how many of these corporations are actually looking for engineers to write clojure, versus looking for engineers who know and like clojure, to be deployed writing/maintaining java or ruby or python?
17:23	justin_smith	kenrestivo: I would hope that would be too dysfunctional even for the tech world
17:23	dbasch	in the case of Amazon I would assume there’s a particular project championed by someone who likes Clojure
17:23	dbasch	Amazon doesn’t have trouble attracting good people in general
17:24	wink	I love how the ad doesn't even say that the position is in the us. which it probably is
17:25	technomancy	justin_smith: I've definitely heard of it happening
17:25	technomancy	someone putting "smalltalk" on the list of requirements for a job completely unrelated to smalltalk just to filter out the noise
17:25	teslanick	There's a fifth column where I work who want to get Clojure as an accepted tech. I'm the lone frontend guy in the back like, "and clojurescript!"
17:26	justin_smith	technomancy: I hope they got a guy who knows like - smalltalk, fortran, cobol and nothing else and had to pay him to learn javascript
17:27	technomancy	I hope it didn't take too long for whomever they found to realize they'd been hoodwinked =\
17:27	cfleming	kenrestivo: From that ad: "Our stateless event-driven compute engine for dynamic data transforms is built entirely in Clojure"
17:27	justin_smith	that actually sounds fun to work on!
17:28	technomancy	"dynamic data transforms" could describe nearly anything
17:28	technomancy	"we have a dynamic data transform that turns HTTP requests into HTTP responses, wooo"
17:28	cfleming	That said, pretty much everything I hear about Amazon makes it sound like a pretty awful place to work.
17:28	technomancy	I've heard it varies wildly by team
17:29	hfaafb	i hear the same as technomancy
17:29	mavbozo	dynamic-data transforms or dynamic data-transforms ?
17:29	cfleming	That makes sense - Google is similar. That's probably true of most large companies, although the Amazon horror stories at the bottom end are pretty bad.
17:30	technomancy	mavbozo: I just assume it means "throws type exceptions at runtime" =)
17:30	sdegutis	Is it possible to load a given (io/resource clojure-file) and get back all the top-level forms within it without evaluating them?
17:30	dbasch	any sufficiently large company will have asshole managers who will make some people’s lives miserable
17:30	justin_smith	sdegutis: that is what read / read-string are for
17:31	sdegutis	For example, if clojure-file contains "[:foo bar] (baz quux)" -- I'd like to get [[:foo 'bar] '(baz quux)] or something equivalent.
17:31	hyPiRion	sdegutis: (read-string (str "[" (slurp (io/resource clojure-file)) "]")) is the hacky way I do it
17:31	technomancy	(take-while (partial not= ::eof) (repeatedly #(read rdr false ::eof))) or something like that
17:31	sdegutis	hyPiRion: ahhh
17:31	justin_smith	or you can make a buffered-reader and collect the results of read until it is empty
17:31	sdegutis	technomancy: that's terrifying
17:31	danneu	sdegutis: i found a lazy edn-seq reader on stackoverflow once that i used for that purpose
17:32	sdegutis	technomancy: somehow less terrifying than hyPiRion's
17:32	sdegutis	*more
17:32	technomancy	sdegutis: reciting from my memory of a certain section of leiningen code that has been replaced
17:33	danneu	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15234880/how-to-use-clojure-edn-read-to-get-a-sequence-of-objects-in-a-file
17:33	sdegutis	Terrifying. Okay I'll use it.
17:33	technomancy	live on the edge
17:33	technomancy	extreme programming
17:34	kenrestivo	i once wrote something similar to hyPiRion's hack above, for datomic schema updates
17:34	mavbozo	reactive programming
17:34	andyf	A loop of reads is terrifying?
17:34	kenrestivo	in fact, i vaguely remember seeing something like that in the day-of-datomic example code, but my memory is fuzzy
17:34	hyPiRion	I'm pretty sure I've used that piece of code more than once.
17:35	sdegutis	Reactive programming is for those who live in a reactor.
17:35	kenrestivo	radioactive programming is for people who are fans of imagine dragons
17:35	sdegutis	Anyway, now I'm in Java land -- lots of "bla cannot be cast to java.io.some.obnoxious.class.hierarchy.hey.i.wonder.whats.on.reddit"
17:36	technomancy	CatGifException
17:38	hyPiRion	We were afraid of a NotEnoughPoniesException at the end of the conj
17:39	sdegutis	sounds like you all had fun at your social gathering
17:39	teslanick	public static void someNonsenseOnReddit() throws ExceptionalCatGifException ?
17:40	justin_smith	UnrecoverableClickedOnSpaceDicksKillItWithFierError
17:40	teslanick	[sic]
17:41	sdegutis	I am DETERMINED to probably figure this out maybe!
17:41	sdegutis	Or at least to try to not give up right away.
18:12	sdegutis	Is (load) just (read) + (eval) ?
18:15	Bronsa	sdegutis: conceptually, yes, the clojure impl of load is a bit more than that though
18:15	andyf	It tries to avoid reloading a namespace that is already loaded, but essentially yes
18:16	gfredericks	does it?
18:16	gfredericks	I thought that was the difference between load and require
18:16	andyf	Bronsa's answers here take precedence over mine :-)
18:16	Bronsa	gfredericks: yeah you're right
18:16	gfredericks	$karma andyf
18:16	lazybot	andyf has karma 9.
18:16	gfredericks	$karma Bronsa
18:16	lazybot	Bronsa has karma 73.
18:17	gfredericks	huh yep, Bronsa takes precedence.
18:17	andyf	Karma shmarma :-). He knows more of this than I do
18:19	andyf	I was reading RT.load source and got confused by meaning of local ' loaded'
18:19	gfredericks	(inc shmarma)
18:19	lazybot	⇒ 1
18:19	gfredericks	$karma schmarma
18:19	lazybot	schmarma has karma 0.
18:19	gfredericks	$karma shmarma
18:19	lazybot	shmarma has karma 1.
18:20	andyf	Not to be confused with shawarma
18:21	andyf	Now someone is writing a bot ' karma cage match' to arbitrate disputes, I bet
18:22	gfredericks	it's no coincidence that amalloy has the most karma and is also right all the time
18:25	andyf	Wow. Cage match on Wikipedia leads to "professional wrestling match types", of which there are more than I would have imagined. Don't go there
18:25	justin_smith	we could totally make a $cagematch command for lazybot (fn cagematch [a b] (if (> (rand-int (karma a) (karma b))) "a wins" "b wins"))
18:26	justin_smith	err, wait, I messed that up
18:26	justin_smith	(if (> (rand-int (karma a)) (rand-int (karma b))) ...)
18:26	andyf	Too late. It has already been shipped
18:26	justin_smith	haha
18:36	mgaare	if I have a set of records, any way to get this to work: (record-set "somestring") => record where (.toString record) = "somestring"?
18:38	justin_smith	mgaare: so you want to redefine that record type to have a new to-string method?
18:39	mgaare	justin_smith: I want to override the lookup mechanism used in sets to use toString for that record type, rather than hashing and whatever else it does now
18:41	justin_smith	mgaare: to change how sets use it, you have to change .equals and .hashCode
18:41	justin_smith	this may be easier with a deftype than a defrecord? may not be
18:41	mgaare	right on. thanks!
18:43	mgaare	I think you can do (defrecord Thingy Object (equals [this that] ...) (hashCode [this] ...))
18:43	justin_smith	yeah, that will likely work
18:46	andyf	gfredericks: Thx for comments on Eastwood issue. I should have some time this long weekend to try out some things
18:47	hyPiRion	Oh, it's Thanksgiving for you Americans tomorrow
18:48	andyf	Tis the season to eat well and start Christmas shopping
18:51	gfredericks	overeating & shopping: it's what George Washington commanded us to do
19:02	ffwacom	'(+ 1 1)
19:02	ffwacom	,(+ 1 1)
19:02	clojurebot	2
19:02	ffwacom	,((partial - 1) 0)
19:02	clojurebot	1
19:02	ffwacom	wait
19:02	ffwacom	nevermind
19:04	andyf	Anyone have favorite sorted collection variants besides github.com/amalloy/ordered data.priority-map and flatland.useful.map/ordering-map ?
19:04	andyf	I'm looking for most useful variants to link from cheatsheet
19:28	subtone100	clojure jobs dealio front paging on hacker news… http://lispjobs.wordpress.com/2014/11/25/clojure-software-development-engineers-amazon-com/
19:50	{blake}	Idiomatic way of converting string to Boolean, Number or Date (or leaving as string)? Should I just do a defmulti or does something already exist.
19:51	andyf	If only arg is string, defmulti will not help, will it?
19:51	gfredericks	well the dispatch can be anything
19:51	gfredericks	but sounds clunky regardless
19:52	andyf	Date formats are legion. Which do you want to support?
19:52	andyf	Which kind of numbers: ints only? Negative allowed? Ratios? Floating point?
19:53	gfredericks	(inc andyf) ;; closing in on Bronsa
19:53	lazybot	⇒ 10
19:53	{blake}	andyf: Well, maybe that's the answer. I'm getting this stuff from a web form, and it's all being formatted so maybe I put it in the right format at that end.
19:53	dbasch	andyf: I haven’t dated in a long time, but I heard friends talk about speed dating
19:53	gfredericks	(dec dbasch)
19:53	lazybot	⇒ 20
19:54	dbasch	gfredericks: oh, date formats as in YYMMDD. Never mind.
19:54	andyf	I get inc for badgering someone with questions? Hmmm
19:55	{blake}	Do you? Do you? Do you? Do you? (This isn't working...)
19:55	dbasch	{blake}: hold it, or you’ll get a dec for bad jokes :P
19:55	gfredericks	andyf: I was considering saying something about the requirements being ambiguous but you dove right in
19:55	{blake}	dbasch: That's the price we pay for comedy.
19:55	dbasch	{blake}: freedom costs a dec o five
19:56	gfredericks	all the incs are like saving up for making puns
19:56	{blake}	dbasch: lol... (there are three types of people...)
19:57	zRecursive	(doc inc)
19:57	andyf	I heard a fun variant on the Cognicast podcast recently: there are only 2 hard problems in computer science: cache invalidation, naming, and off-by-one bugs
19:57	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns a number one greater than num. Does not auto-promote longs, will throw on overflow. See also: inc'"
19:57	{blake}	Well, I was thinking the REPL...it does something like what I'm talking about. The R&P parts.
19:58	gfredericks	"there's two hard problems in computer science: we only have one joke and it's not funny."
19:59	dbasch	andyf: that joke is at least a decade old, probably older
20:00	{blake}	Wait..it's a joke?
20:00	andyf	{blake}: You could use clojure.edn/read-string and check class of return value, but it may not work for dates, and may allow many more number formats than you wish
20:00	technomancy	oh dear https://www.atlassian.com/jirajr
20:00	andyf	dbasch: Even the last phrase?
20:01	dbasch	andyf: https://www.google.com/search?q=naming+things+and+off+by+one+errors&safe=off&espv=2&biw=1536&bih=1235&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A%2Ccd_max%3A12%2F31%2F2002&tbm=#safe=off&tbs=cdr:1%2Ccd_max:12%2F31%2F2002&q=%22naming+things+and+off+by+one+errors%22
20:02	gfredericks	technomancy: Pivotal Tracker Tikes
20:02	andyf	I'm glad I don't know all of the jokes yet
20:03	dbasch	technomancy: we need clojunior
20:03	gfredericks	don't like that it's called "contains?" -- then just call it "stuff".
20:03	{blake}	andyf: Date-wise...this is coming in off a web-page which I control. Seems like that should help somehow.
20:04	dbasch	(poop Exception. “I want a pony!”)
20:05	dbasch	I can’t even get jokes to be syntactically correct
20:06	andyf	Looks like the merch is really for sale, but I assume jirajr is an atlassian-approved bit of humor?
20:06	dbasch	andyf: look at the date of the youtube video
20:22	kenrestivo	i'm partial to "there are only 10 kinds of people: those who understand binary and those who do not"
20:23	andyf	There is a clojure.core/partial joke in there somewhere
20:23	dbasch	kenrestivo: don’t forget the ones who understand ternary, or any other bases
20:24	andyf	Wait, date formats as in YYMMDD. Are you from 1990?
20:25	dbasch	andyf: I wish, that would make me 24 years old
20:25	dbasch	but yes, I grew up in the days of YY
20:26	kenrestivo	i've seen a y2k bug in the wild only once. it was on a kid's computer math game, made in 1994. when used in 2007 it showed dates as 1907
20:26	andyf	I was actually semi-worried around New Year's Eve 2000. Not for planes falling out of the sky, but for the economy going wonky
20:26	kenrestivo	that happened in 2001 :-/
20:26	kenrestivo	which was actually the millenium :-P
20:27	justin_smith	kenrestivo: my tandy 102 works great, modern batteries can make it last over a week on a set of aa cells, it's indestructable, but it thinks this is 1914
20:28	justin_smith	also, it has the last significant piece of software written by bill gates on it (a text editor)
20:30	{blake}	Nothing wrong with YY. We're well into the 2000s now. And nothing of import happened in the 19xxes.
20:31	andyf	Dude, do you even history?
20:31	{blake}	Stop living in the past.
20:31	dbasch	the past is for log files. in #clojure we live in the present
20:31	kenrestivo	no dude
20:31	kenrestivo	we live IN THE FUTURE
20:32	hfaafb	logs are stateful
20:32	dbasch	(dec logs)
20:32	lazybot	⇒ -1
20:32	andyf	Shudders to think what would happen if nothing older than 10 years ago was known
20:33	hfaafb	NodeJS is what happened
20:33	hfaafb	#rekt
20:33	dbasch	we wouldn’t know that the Concorde existed, and flew for the last time 11 years ago today
20:33	dbasch	we didn’t have Clojure but we had commercial supersonic flights
20:33	hfaafb	God bless America
20:35	{blake}	Er, Concorde was British.
20:35	dbasch	it was Anglo-French
20:40	verma	does clojuredocs have an API?
20:40	verma	stuff to query examples etc?
20:40	justin_smith	grimoire has that
20:40	andyf	Yes, but I think it accesses data from about SEp 2014
20:40	justin_smith	$grim clojure.core/+
20:40	lazybot	http://grimoire.arrdem.com/1.6.0/clojure.core/+
20:41	andyf	Search github for cd-client lib
20:41	verma	nice
20:41	verma	thanks guys
20:41	andyf	There is an issue for ClojureDocs to update it, but not done yet
20:42	verma	so when you say data from sep 2014, what does that mean? like a snapshot was taken?
20:42	verma	the docs and examples are continously growing aren't they?
20:42	verma	andyf: ^
20:43	andyf	It appears to me that a snapshot was taken and that is what API accesses. Updates are occurring to HTML version
20:44	verma	oh
20:44	andyf	Probably snapshot is from when they updated HTML version to clojure 1. 6.0 around sep 2014
20:44	verma	nice, I can always iframe stuff
20:45	verma	just trying to make a nodewebkit app for quick documentation and samples, kind of like dash but very clojure specific and sources data live from the interwebs.
20:45	andyf	I pull my own snapshot via their API every month or so, and it has stopped updating for a while , even though HTML keeps updating since then
20:45	verma	and playing with freactive along the way
20:46	verma	andyf: what do you do with the snapshot?
20:46	andyf	Generate stats for clojure cheatsheet tooltips
20:47	verma	which clojure cheatsheet?
20:47	andyf	Also put up a text file of snap on github in case someone wants offline accessible version for cd-client
20:47	verma	nice
20:48	andyf	The ones here: jafingerhut.github.io
20:48	justin_smith	~cheatsheet
20:48	clojurebot	Cheatsheets with tooltips can be found at http://jafingerhut.github.com/ .
20:48	enn	Given a java.lang.class like clojure.core$map, is there a straightforward way to get the clojure.lang.Var clojure.core/map?
20:48	gfredericks	just heuristics I Think
20:48	gfredericks	so...no.
20:49	enn	ok
20:50	justin_smith	gfredericks: well, you could filter all-ns / ns-publics
20:50	justin_smith	but that's way ugly
20:50	verma	andyf: nice!
20:50	gfredericks	justin_smith: clever though
20:52	gfredericks	,(for [ns (all-ns) [_ v] (ns-publics ns) :when (= clojure.core$map @v)] v)
20:52	clojurebot	()
20:52	gfredericks	,(for [ns (all-ns) [_ v] (ns-publics ns) :when (= clojure.core$map (class @v))] v)
20:52	clojurebot	(#'clojure.core/map)
20:53	gfredericks	enn: ^ marginally better than string wrangling
20:53	gfredericks	(inc justin_smith)
20:53	lazybot	⇒ 149
20:53	enn	oh, nice. That might not be too ugly for this application. Thank you!
20:54	justin_smith	the problem is you are walking every var in every namespace
20:54	justin_smith	terrible algorithm
20:54	andyf	Caching!
20:55	justin_smith	haha
20:55	andyf	(No invalidation required, thus avoiding hard problem)
20:55	justin_smith	andyf: if you never redefine vars, sure
20:55	andyf	Hard problem avoided by putting fingers in ears and singing
20:56	gfredericks	redefining is a problem even if you don't cache
20:56	gfredericks	depending on your requirements at least
20:56	justin_smith	gfredericks: it's no longer the value of any var, so isn't found - what's the problem?
20:56	justin_smith	yeah, depending on requirements that could still be an issue
20:56	gfredericks	maybe you wanted to find it anyways
20:57	justin_smith	then you want a reverse registry for all namespaces
20:57	gfredericks	I have clojure.core$map and I want #'clojure.core/map whether or not anybody's redefined it
20:57	gfredericks	I was about to claim I couldn't think of a use case for this but maybe handling stack traces?
20:59	enn	Yes, exactly
21:00	andyf	I recall reading something recently about project that modifies stack traces but forgetting its name
21:00	justin_smith	yeah, for something like stacktraces you don't need a super efficient algorithm anyway - something broke, do a linear seach and grab pieces of what happened, that's reasonable
21:06	andyf	AvisoNovate /pretty lib on github is not what I am remembering, but has code relevant to enn's question
21:08	enn	oh, that looks really nice
21:09	verma	emacs users: what's your general flow for adding a new dep to your project?
21:10	andyf	Edit project.clj in emacs. Save. :-)
21:10	kenrestivo	um, add it to project.clj and rstart the vm?
21:10	justin_smith	verma: I have pallet/alembic in my profiles.clj user deps, so I add it to the running repl at the same time I add it to project.clj
21:10	justin_smith	pallet can add a dep based on a changed project.clj at runtime
21:10	verma	oh what!
21:10	verma	nice
21:10	kenrestivo	what is this sorcery?
21:10	justin_smith	pallet/alembic. It is awesome.
21:11	justin_smith	alembic/load-project
21:11	verma	also the part of actually looking up the exact package you need, like I need core.async, but there's this whole lein string that you need, do you just copy paste it after googling it?
21:11	justin_smith	it doesn't drop deps, only adds them though
21:11	andyf	It is sorcery, kenrestivo! Save yourself while there is still time!
21:11	justin_smith	verma: clojars / crossclj.info
21:11	andyf	Seriously, some sorcery is good
21:12	justin_smith	also lein search
21:12	kenrestivo	i'm already locked in a battle to the death with clojure.tools.namespace/refresh, not sure i want ot add another magickal thing
21:12	justin_smith	haha
21:12	kenrestivo	that does Things to my classpath and jvm
21:12	kenrestivo	but it sounds very cool
21:13	justin_smith	compared to the state-wrangling that refresh does, downloading a jar and adding to classpath is pretty trivial
21:13	justin_smith	unlike refresh it can't drop things, only add to what you have
21:14	verma	lein search excepted :(
21:14	verma	crossclj.info is pretty nice!
21:14	justin_smith	yeah, it is pretty amazing, I wish it would get a UX overhaul though
21:15	kenrestivo	i wish crossclj was integrated into emacs and/or lein
21:15	verma	hehe agree, I still cannot find that lein package string
21:15	kenrestivo	actually, something like alembic + crossclj + emacs.... mmmm
21:15	verma	I mean click this button to copy it
21:15	verma	or something, like lein plz is trying to do this
21:24	kenrestivo	starting to get to the bottom of this. it seems that if the component dependency order is not exactly the same as the namespace dependency order, Trouble can arise
21:33	kenrestivo	huh, well that fixed it. super scary that i have no idea why, but it did :-/
21:34	kenrestivo	i removed one dependency in one of the ns's. wasn't even a circular dependency or anything, just a slightly different order than i really needed.
22:28	cfleming	I hate the ns form in all its, er, forms.
22:28	cfleming	Especially use. I have a special hatred in my heart for use.
22:30	gfredericks	~ns
22:30	clojurebot	ns is unfortunately more complicated than it needs to be, but http://blog.8thlight.com/articles/2010/12/6/clojure-libs-and-namespaces-require-use-import-and-ns may be helpful.
22:31	gfredericks	~ns
22:31	clojurebot	ns is unfortunately more complicated than it needs to be, but http://blog.8thlight.com/articles/2010/12/6/clojure-libs-and-namespaces-require-use-import-and-ns may be helpful.
22:31	gfredericks	hmm
22:33	cfleming	Unfortunately that blog post is silent on such matters as what (:use [my.ns :refer [a b c] :only [d e f] :exclude [a d] :as blarg]) actually means.
22:34	cfleming	Or actually does, rather.
22:34	cfleming	And such matters as whether (:use (clojure.java io javadoc)) is valid or if I have to split the prefix.
22:34	gfredericks	well clearly it
22:37	thearthur	cfleming: It would be nice if use was more clearly discouraged in the official documentations for ns
22:38	cfleming	thearthur: No doubt. I'm an unusual case, admittedly, since I have to write code that parses ns and rewrites it, so I have to care about the edge cases that most people don't.
22:38	cfleming	Turns out there's a lot of them.
22:39	gfredericks	"arble-garble is a clojure library for parsing and rewriting ns forms."
22:40	cfleming	That would be an excellent name for such a library.
22:40	cfleming	Or gobbledygook, perhaps. Or gibberish.
22:40	cfleming	I like gibberish, actually.
22:41	cfleming	Anyway, rant over. Thank you all for listening.
22:45	gfredericks	name it gobble-gobble in honor of tomorrow
22:50	justin_smith	gfredericks: global-gobble?
22:56	thearthur	global-globble
22:57	kenrestivo	i despise :use, and i don't much care for :refer :all either. i like it when people call out specifically what functions come from where
22:58	llasram	explicit > implicit
22:58	llasram	Python got a few things right, at least philosophically
22:58	kenrestivo	yeah. java's "import foo.bar.*;" makes me see red too. especially in readmes and sample code.
23:02	cfleming	My main beef are things like the prefixed use/require form, which make it massively more complex to avoid typing a few chars. The CLJS ns form is much more sane.