#clojure – 2014-11-24

2014-11-24

01:18	daniel_	can anyone recommend any talks from the conj?
01:25	amalloy	yes, i recommend any talks from the conj
01:25	daniel_	none stand out?
01:30	amalloy	i haven't actually watched any of them this year. but as a general rule, there aren't many you'll be sad to have watched
02:03	andyf	daniel_: I have only watched a couple. Brian Goetz?s talk was a nice perspective on how to evolve a language while maintaining compatibility (Java), and some new cool things in Java 8 already, and value types coming in Java 9.
02:04	daniel_	thanks andyf
02:04	andyf	daniel_: I liked Colin Fleming?s talk on Cursive just because what Cursive looks like it can do is impressive.
02:04	daniel_	started watching the realtime data pipeline (kafka) one as its sounded relavent to my work
02:05	andyf	value types are in particular something I wished for a few days ago, realizing that something like them should be able to help implement many data structures in Java more efficiently in time and/or memory use.
02:24	littleli	I wonder how will they make them play nice with current implementation of generics
02:59	tephra	justin_smith: theses: iirc javafx is oracles swing replacement http://fxexperience.com/2013/01/modena-new-theme-for-javafx-8/
03:01	tephra	oh and that link is to the default look of javafx applications
04:25	pellis	hi all.. anyone using scala with lein?
04:49	gumghouls	anyone familiar with using lein repl :headless in a VM while having a nrepl session in the host ?
04:56	clgv	~anybody
04:56	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
05:00	gumghouls	Using lein repl :headless in a VM running a nrepl session on port 50505. I can't connect from the host (using emacs and cider [nrepl client]). So I'm looking for docs or references
05:01	gumghouls	(ports are forwarded properly, I tested an http server inside the VM and could `curl`, so I expect the port 50505 redirection to be OK)
05:06	clgv	gumghouls: did you try connecting via lein from the host already?
05:06	clgv	gumghouls: just to make sure it is a connection problem and not a cider problem
05:10	gumghouls	clgv: I ran emacs/cider in the VM and connected to the running lein repl session
05:15	clgv	gumghouls: run "lein :connect ..." on the host, since you said you have problems conencting from the host with cider
05:15	clgv	ah no "lein repl :connect ..."
05:16	clgv	;)
05:16	gumghouls	working on it
05:17	bars0	Hi all! I am a beginner in clojure and try to setup CIDER. I think I partially
05:17	bars0	succeed. But after conneccting with (C-C M-j) I've got message: "; CIDER 0.8.1
05:17	bars0	(package: 20141123.1045) (Java nil, Clojure 1.6.0, nREPL 0.2.3). WARNING: The
05:17	bars0	following required nREPL ops are not supported: ns-list ns-vars undef. Please,
05:17	bars0	install (or update) cider-nrepl 0.8.1 and restart CIDER". But the problem is I
05:17	bars0	don't see in melpa or marmelade any newer cider packages. In my project.clj I've
05:17	gumghouls	takes a while to connect but lein repl :connect 50505 works
05:17	bars0	defined [cider/cider-nrepl "0.8.1"] as well as in leiningen profiles.clj. Could
05:17	bars0	anybody can point me to any docs how to properly configure cider. BTW I am on
05:17	bars0	Win32, Emacs 24.4.
05:17	clgv	bars0: please do use e.g. refheap.com for multiline pastes
05:18	bars0	clgv: OK, sorry for that
05:18	clgv	gumghouls: now you know it is a cider problem
05:20	gumghouls	clgv: I'm still betting on a gumghouls problem, everything works locally inside the VM. I did (or forgot to do) something between the guest VM, the host and networking
05:21	clgv	gumghouls: well, one nrepl client, the one of leiningen, is working
05:22	clgv	gumghouls: but yeah, could still be missing configuration for cider instead of a cider bug ;)
05:22	szymanowski	hello, how can I see all class that implement a given interface or protocol?
05:22	clgv	szymanowski: afaik you can't.
05:23	szymanowski	ok :(
05:23	clgv	szymanowski: you could enumerate through the classpath and find out about all class names and then derive that data from these classes
05:23	szymanowski	yes it seems reasonable
05:24	clgv	javadoc can also only do that because it collects the whole information about all classes
05:24	gumghouls	yeah, blame it on the monkey, not the tools
05:24	szymanowski	How can I enumerate the classpath? :)
05:25	clgv	szymanowski: it is not trivial - so I ask the question: do you really need that?
05:25	szymanowski	I suppose no
05:25	szymanowski	:)
05:25	szymanowski	I will try to find do without
05:26	szymanowski	thank you
05:26	szymanowski	I will try to do without *
05:39	honza	java interop question: how can i use a class that mutates? create an instance, call a method that mutates the instance and returns void; and then i'm required to use a getter method to obtain the result
05:40	ddellacosta	honza: you mean, like, how you do you do standard Java interop with a regular Java object?
05:40	ddellacosta	honza: are your questions not answered here? http://clojure.org/java_interop
05:42	honza	ddellacosta: it doesn't seem to work the way i understand it; i create a binding for the instance in a let, call the void method but then when i call the getter, the instance appears unchanged
05:43	ddellacosta	honza: paste the code into a refheap/gist etc. and let us take a look
05:44	honza	ddellacosta: here https://gist.github.com/honza/df6b08e8987608c5c898
05:44	honza	ddellacosta: processDocument returns void
05:45	ddellacosta	honza: I mean, that looks right to me. I suspect this is unrelated to Clojure--can you get the same code to work in Java?
05:46	honza	ddellacosta: k, cool, thanks for the sanity check, i'll investigate in java land
05:46	ddellacosta	honza: got the javadocs for this API available publicly?
05:46	ddellacosta	honza: sure thing
05:46	honza	ddellacosta: it's straight from the example - http://cssbox.sourceforge.net/pdf2dom/documentation.php
05:46	honza	ddellacosta: javadoc here http://cssbox.sourceforge.net/pdf2dom/api/index.html
05:48	ddellacosta	honza: yeah, that looks like a one-to-one translation from the Java example to me, should work. Maybe check dumb things, like file location and whatnot? Otherwise definitely doesn't seem Clojure-specific. Sorry I can't help more, don't know this lib. :-/
05:48	honza	ddellacosta: np, no need to waste more time :)
05:49	ddellacosta	honza: good luck. ;-)
06:10	clgv	honza: `doto` is helpful for those interop scenarios
07:03	justin_smith	honza: btw, every let has an implicit do block in it, you don't need do there
07:03	honza	justin_smith: welp, thanks
07:04	justin_smith	not a bug, of course, just a bit of verbocity / extra parens you don't need
07:45	honza	does anyone have any ideas why lein repl and the like use very different amounts of memory for different people? (independent of middleware and plugins)
07:46	honza	some details here https://github.com/plexus/chestnut/issues/49
07:46	jaaqo	Yay, by trying to form my problem into a question to be asked here I solved my problem. Thank you!
07:47	justin_smith	jaaqo: rubber duck effect strikes again
07:49	honza	jaaqo: my favorite programmer phenomenon
08:08	honza	i guess i should open an issue with lein
08:10	andyf_	honza: There is a leiningen email list, too
08:14	clgv	and a #leiningen irc channel
08:25	grandy	hello, i was reading the clojars web source and have a question about this file: https://github.com/ato/clojars-web/blob/master/src/clojars/auth.clj
08:25	grandy	why is try-account a macro?
08:25	grandy	justin_smith: do you happen to be around?
08:26	grandy	wondering if it's a macro b/c it's more concise or if there is something more fancy going on
08:35	grandy	anyone feel like answering that question -- just switched to a different connection -- still here
08:37	dnolen_	grandy: could be a function but would be uglier would have to take the series of statements to execute as a thunk. this macro is typical boilerplate removal.
08:39	grandy	dnolen_: ahh ok... it would be a thunk just to be lazy or does it have to be a thunk? not sure i understand that aspect fully
08:40	dnolen_	grandy: probably better to think through why it won't work since authentication must come first before anything else.
08:43	grandy	dnolen_: ahh ok, i'll do that :) appreciate the help
08:55	squeedee	conj was ace!
08:55	squeedee	just putting that out there
09:02	grandy	wish i could have made it -- planning to watch the videos soon.
09:02	sooheon	squeedee: going through some of the talks now; so much goes over my head but the energy seems great
09:03	squeedee	sooheon the ones that go over my head just get filed in the back of my mind for when they make sense :D
09:03	squeedee	I was lucky, I live in VA, just outside of DC
09:06	clgv	squeedee: did you see the "Clo" talk?
09:06	clgv	squeedee: is there a corresponding release?
09:06	squeedee	I saw the talk
09:07	squeedee	clgv: it's still in its infancy, I think he's holding it to his chest, probably because it's a personal education piece for him
09:07	clgv	:(
09:07	squeedee	holy-moly sized project
09:13	grandy	whose project is that?
09:28	mavbozo	e
09:35	KnightsWhoSayHi	keeds: you don't work in leeds by any chance, do you? :-)
09:43	keeds	KnightsWhoSayHi: Wot! keeds from leeds? Nah.
10:15	mikos	you in the UK, KnightsWhoSayHi?
10:15	KnightsWhoSayHi	mikos: Yes.
10:15	mikos	cool, where?
10:16	KnightsWhoSayHi	Near Leeds - I was just curious if there were any companies using Clojure in and around Yorkshire.
10:16	mikos	i am a couple of hours north of Leeds
10:16	mikos	slowly trying to work it into my projects :)
10:17	KnightsWhoSayHi	I'm a sysadmin so there's not much hope for me to weasel it in... I have been using Amazonica though with great success :D
10:17	mikos	ah, cool
10:17	mikos	i'd not heard of that
10:18	mikos	back soon - gotta walk the dog!
11:26	mikerod	I often run into trouble with leiningen of the form "Could not transfer artifact <artitfact-name-here>from/to <repo-name> <etc> Return code is: 409 , ReasonPhrase:Conflict." then something like "If you are behind a proxy, try setting the 'http_proxy' environment variable."
11:26	mikerod	However, these projects are also Maven configured and they have no problems with the same dependencies
11:28	mikerod	I've seen this sort of issue pop up often. I'm not sure where lein differs from Maven in how it searches for dependencies
11:29	mikerod	I also do not think there is any sort of proxy in place here
11:30	mikerod	I'm thinking there is something more restrictive in leiningen or than in Maven when it comes to fetching dependencies. Perhaps Maven has some defaults that lein has chosen not to include.
11:31	sveri	mikerod: sounds like a network issue to me, I never saw this error before, you have some sort of a firewall in place?
11:31	jmontleon	justin_smith, so I hit one more issue, which I commented on on that page. Apparently if you have clj files with the same or later date as class files they don't run AOT. Unfortunately maven-shade-plugin sets all the timestamps the same, so you have to fix it with maven-exec-plugin, but after that it works.
11:31	mikerod	sveri: I've used different networks both with and without firewalls
11:32	jmontleon	i can actually run it now, which is a bonus
11:32	mikerod	I know this is a vague question, so I'm probably shooting in the dark to get any useful feedback. I guess I need to understand some more details on how lein fetches dependencies
11:33	mikerod	I haven't seen these issues as frequently in Maven and often I can build the project in Maven, but not with lein
11:33	mikerod	With the same dependency names+versions and the same repositories defined
11:33	sveri	mikerod: any specific dependency that this occurs with regularly?
11:34	xemdetia	It almost reads to me that you might be accidentally including the same thing twice because of the 'Conflict' message, not sure how you would check that though
11:44	mikerod	sveri: It seems to always be from globally accessible repos
11:44	mikerod	The current one I'm seeing is a dependency from cloudera
11:45	mikerod	xemdetia: that is interesting. so maybe I'm brining in some conflicting versions here I think you're saying?
11:46	sdegutis	This kind of thing looks like it could be useful in Clojure too, but as a macro: http://robots.thoughtbot.com/efficient-json-in-swift-with-functional-concepts-and-generics
11:46	mikerod	when I do `lein deps :tree` it fails before showing me a tree
11:46	mikerod	:(
11:46	xemdetia	mikerod, it's only a guess. It is saying "ReasonPhrase:Conflict," not "ReasonPhrase:Can'tDownload"
11:47	xemdetia	I'm almost thinking the http_proxy bit is just sort of a catchall failure message that is triggering
12:09	mikerod	When I have dependency problems in lein, I never know how to look for them easily since the :tree command also is out-of-service hah. I'll do some digging though. Thanks for the advice and responses to my vague questions though.
12:15	no7hing	hey, shouldn’t this work? https://www.refheap.com/93886
12:18	bocaj_	Have you implemented Access Control Lists (ACL) with cemerick.friend ?
12:20	mavbozo	&(clojure.string/replace "sheet.name" #"\." "\\")
12:20	lazybot	java.lang.StringIndexOutOfBoundsException: String index out of range: 1
12:20	clgv	no7hing: typical escape pitfall ;)
12:20	clgv	,(clojure.string/replace "sheet.name" #"\." "\\\\")
12:20	clojurebot	"sheet\\name"
12:20	clgv	,(print (clojure.string/replace "sheet.name" #"\." "\\\\"))
12:20	clojurebot	sheet\name
12:20	no7hing	oh my. thanks @clgv
12:21	clgv	no7hing: you need an insane amount of backslashes as shown above ;)
12:21	clgv	,(print (clojure.string/replace "sheet.name" #"\." \\))
12:21	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Character cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
12:21	no7hing	i ran out of backslashes after the first two ;)
12:21	clgv	,(print (clojure.string/replace "sheet.name" #"\." (constantly \\)))
12:21	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Character cannot be cast to java.lang.String>
12:21	Empperi	you have to escape both for strings and regexps and whatnot
12:21	clgv	,(print (clojure.string/replace "sheet.name" #"\." (str \\)))
12:21	Empperi	horrible world
12:21	clojurebot	#<StringIndexOutOfBoundsException java.lang.StringIndexOutOfBoundsException: String index out of range: 1>
12:21	no7hing	looks like my repl session
12:22	clgv	,(str \\)
12:22	clojurebot	"\\"
12:22	clgv	ah right. no shortcut in that direction
12:23	clgv	no7hing: Clojure's regexps are optimized in that regard
12:23	mavbozo	,(re-pattern "\")
12:23	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading string>
12:23	mavbozo	,(re-pattern "\\")
12:23	clojurebot	#<ExceptionInInitializerError java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError>
12:23	clgv	,(str #"\.")
12:23	clojurebot	"\\."
12:24	mavbozo	,(re-pattern "\\\\")
12:24	clojurebot	#"\\"
12:24	mearnsh	looking for workflow advice: using a library in my project but i've made a fork of the library now. how can i deal with this using lein efficiently
12:24	technomancy	mearnsh: there's a FAQ about that
12:24	mearnsh	ah, i'll take a look thanks
12:28	clgv	mearnsh: short answer - usually you just change the group of the artifact, e.g. to "org.clojars.mearnsh"
12:28	clgv	mearnsh: if the changes don't get merged into the original library and you diverge farther, you should probably rename the library
12:40	mearnsh	sounds like a plan, will try that
13:00	riley526	Why are multimethods not considered functions by `fn?`?
13:00	technomancy	riley526: you're looking for ifn? probably
13:02	riley526	technomancy: so fn? only returns true for functions defined with (fn [] ...), etc, not just any callable?
13:02	clgv	,(defmulti bla type)
13:02	clojurebot	#'sandbox/bla
13:02	clgv	,(ancestors (type bla))
13:02	technomancy	correcto
13:02	clojurebot	#{java.lang.Runnable clojure.lang.AFn java.lang.Object clojure.lang.IFn java.util.concurrent.Callable}
13:02	technomancy	prefer abstractions to concretions
13:03	riley526	polaris (a routing lib) doesn't let you provide a multimethod as a request handler
13:03	riley526	because it uses fn? to check its type https://github.com/caribou/polaris/blob/master/src/polaris/core.clj#L28
13:04	technomancy	that's a bug
13:04	riley526	yeah I figured
13:04	justin_smith	riley526: I can get that fixed
13:04	justin_smith	riley526: did you make a ticket for it?
13:04	riley526	justin_smith: oh cool
13:04	riley526	justin_smith: no I just discovered it last night
13:04	riley526	justin_smith: I can though
13:04	riley526	justin_smith: what's the solution, ifn? perhaps?
13:05	riley526	I can pull-request it if it's that simple
13:05	justin_smith	yeah, I see it now ##(ifn? :f)
13:05	lazybot	⇒ true
13:05	justin_smith	yeah, ifn? is the simple fix
13:05	riley526	cool
13:05	clgv	though a lot of stuff satisfies `ifn?`
13:06	sdegutis	git diff -w --color-words HEAD^ # this is amazing for Clojure code
13:06	riley526	true
13:06	riley526	does it make sense to accept a keyword as a handler, for instance?
13:06	justin_smith	clgv: our options in that context are: callable, var, or symbol (which gets resolved), so I will move var up in the cond (since vars implement ifn) and all should be good
13:07	justin_smith	actually, I can eliminate the var clause!
13:07	justin_smith	turn the cond into an if, nice
13:07	justin_smith	wait - symbols also implement ifn - so I just check for symbool, and error if not callable
13:07	sdegutis	justin_smith: what do you have against cond?
13:07	sdegutis	justin_smith: you know, there wouldnt even /be/ an if, if it werent for cond
13:08	justin_smith	sdegutis: if you only have two clauses, it's more complex than what is needed
13:08	justin_smith	I like to use the simplest and least powerful construct available
13:08	clgv	justin_smith: sure, depends what is done with that value. I once caused an error in one of my libs by switching from `fn?` to `ifn?`
13:08	justin_smith	and it always feels nice to bump down a notch of power
13:08	clgv	so I wanted to mention it ;)
13:08	justin_smith	clgv: I can see that
13:08	sdegutis	justin_smith: +1
13:08	justin_smith	clgv: and if you handn't mentioned that, I might have missed the symbols implementing ifn case
13:09	clgv	sdegutis: `cond` sucks for unboxed longs and doubles because of its last case that returns nil
13:09	justin_smith	riley526: so it isn't as simple as just checking for ifn?, I will work on a fix
13:09	riley526	alright cool
13:09	clgv	,(set! warn-on-reflection true)
13:09	clojurebot	#<IllegalStateException java.lang.IllegalStateException: Can't change/establish root binding of: warn-on-reflection with set>
13:09	riley526	justin_smith: love polaris, fwiw
13:09	llasram	justin_smith: Not knowing the context of this library, but what's the use-case for resolving symbols to vars?
13:09	clgv	awww :(
13:09	sdegutis	clgv: I never think about that kind of optimization. Should I be?
13:10	clgv	sdegutis: seems like you had nothing performance critical wrt this - so no you shouldnt
13:10	clgv	sdegutis: I just fixed a reflection warning corresponding to that this morning
13:11	sdegutis	ok :)
13:11	clgv	on first sight I couldn't explain were the autoboxing came from
13:11	sdegutis	clgv: Well, we run our Clojure web (ring/jetty) server on the smallest/cheapest usable EC2 server possible -- does that count as needing critical performance?
13:11	clgv	sdegutis: depends on the operations ;)
13:12	sdegutis	clgv: Uhh, it's a website.
13:12	clgv	and whether you do a lot of numeric calculations
13:12	clgv	for the above case, I mean
13:12	sdegutis	Git is so cool. I was able to see how I used a function just before my last commit by doing: git grep -C2 with-eula-sig HEAD^
13:19	justin_smith	llasram: specifying a routing table as a vanilla data structure - symbols, maps, strings, keywords, vectors
13:19	justin_smith	llasram: ie. something that is edn-clean
13:19	justin_smith	in that case, a symbol for the handler's action is resolved to a namespaced var
13:20	justin_smith	llasram: hopefully the advantages of specifying things as pure edn are clear
13:22	EvanR	,(chr 31)
13:22	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: chr in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
13:22	EvanR	,(str \x1f)
13:22	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unsupported character: \x1f>
13:22	justin_smith	,(char 31)
13:22	clojurebot	\
13:22	justin_smith	,(str 0x1f)
13:22	clojurebot	"31"
13:22	justin_smith	,(char 0x1f)
13:22	clojurebot	\
13:23	justin_smith	EvanR: ^^^
13:23	EvanR	ok
13:23	justin_smith	,(str (char 31))
13:23	clojurebot	""
14:05	amalloy	gfredericks: how many libs have you named (format "lib-%04d" (rand-int 10000))? i thought it was like a one-time joke, but i see there are a fair number of such things
14:07	danielcompton	dnolen_: ping
14:09	clgv	amalloy: 5 according to github ;)
14:10	gfredericks	amalloy: yeah 5 sounds right; only like one or two of them would I use today
14:10	kenrestivo	wait, the last case of cond always returns nil? really? i could swear i've used it and if you catch all the possible input it doesn't return nil
14:10	gfredericks	I tend to wuss out on the joke because I like to fantasize that a lib might get populare and that in real life this only happens if it has a traditionally clever name
14:11	amalloy	kenrestivo: uhhhh, it's not totally clear what you mean but you are probably mistaken
14:11	amalloy	eg, ##(cond true 1) ;; returns 1, not nil
14:11	lazybot	⇒ 1
14:11	kenrestivo	< clgv> [13:08:05] sdegutis: `cond` sucks for unboxed longs and doubles because of its last case that returns nil <-- this confused me
14:12	kenrestivo	i thought that sounded wrong
14:12	dnolen_	danielcompton: pong
14:12	amalloy	kenrestivo: the compiler can't prove that you actually make it through all the cases
14:12	amalloy	so it is probably worried that you might return nil, and thus can't unbox the primitives
14:12	danielcompton	dnolen_: is there anything I can do to help with http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/LOGIC-118 ?
14:12	kenrestivo	ooh
14:13	reflections	hey
14:13	sdegutis	dnolen_: how do you find all this time for all this apparently non-stop open source work?
14:14	hiredman	,(macroexpand '(cond a b c d))
14:14	clojurebot	(if a b (clojure.core/cond c d))
14:14	hiredman	,(macroexpand '(cond c d))
14:14	clojurebot	(if c d (clojure.core/cond))
14:14	hiredman	,(macroexpand '(cond))
14:14	clojurebot	nil
14:15	reflections	I have some edn which was read out of an H2 DB which I am now trying to use as a basis to populate a DB. I notice that timestamps have been represented as byte arrays (#<byte[]...) but I am not sure how to read these in. Any ideas much appreciated
14:15	hiredman	why do you say it is edn data?
14:16	weavejester	reflections: It sounds like your data has some unreadable forms in it. Byte arrays don't serialise by default.
14:16	reflections	well i assumed i could provide some sort of handler function to the reader to intepret these
14:17	hiredman	so you are serializing via pr-str or simliar, writing to the database, and getting form you can't read out the otherside?
14:18	justin_smith	reflections: you can get a byte-array as a string with the string constructor (String.) or via slurp. But yeah, something seems wrong that you are getting that back, and I don't know if either of those would really give you the original back.
14:18	amalloy	reflections: if it has actually been written as the string "#<byte[] ...>" then you are out of luck, those are totally unusable. you need to write things in a way that doesn't lose the information
14:18	weavejester	reflections: It's the writer that's wrong. You don't have enough information to reconstruct the array.
14:18	reflections	ive read from one db, written to a file, and hoping to read back into a db
14:18	justin_smith	I have had the issue with jdbc sometimes that for certain text data types I get a byte array I need to slurp or construct a string from
14:18	reflections	oh, I see. Sounds like I have serialised incorrectly then
14:19	Bronsa	cond could actually be smarter and short-circuit on truthy literal tests
14:19	weavejester	reflections: You might want to try a serialisation library that can handle arrays, like Nippy, or add a custom serialiser for arrays.
14:19	weavejester	Nippy is probably the easiest solution.
14:19	sdegutis	,(defn call-macro [m & args] (eval (apply (resolve m) nil nil args)))
14:19	clojurebot	#'sandbox/call-macro
14:19	sdegutis	,(call-macro 'when true 123)
14:19	clojurebot	123
14:20	dnolen_	danielcompton: does that second patch work for you?
14:20	reflections	these are fields of type 'timestamp' in the db
14:20	amalloy	Bronsa: that seems like a reasonable enhancement to me
14:20	danielcompton	Yes, it works for me in kibit
14:20	Bronsa	something like http://sprunge.us/DfUO?clj
14:20	danielcompton	dnolen_: but kibit doesn't use all of core.logic
14:20	justin_smith	reflections: what does the resulting string look like if you slurp one?
14:20	sdegutis	,(let [macro 'if] (call-macro macro false 123 456))
14:20	clojurebot	#<NullPointerException java.lang.NullPointerException>
14:20	sdegutis	Aww.
14:20	Bronsa	sdegutis: if is not a macro
14:21	sdegutis	Oh.
14:21	sdegutis	,(let [macro 'cond] (call-macro macro false 123 :else 456))
14:21	clojurebot	456
14:21	sdegutis	Yay.
14:22	Bronsa	or a little better, http://sprunge.us/edii?clj
14:23	Bronsa	amalloy: meh, this wouldn't be necessary if the compiler did this automatically for if forms
14:24	dnolen_	danielcompton: applied, tested, pushed
14:25	danielcompton	dnolen_: awesome, thanks!
14:25	dnolen_	danielcompton: will have to await another bug before I cut a release
14:25	danielcompton	dnolen_: np
14:27	morfeen	anyone read this article: http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/bipolar.htm
14:30	augustl	hyPiRion: (off topic) are you aware of any Rust bindings for c-rrb?
14:32	hyPiRion	augustl: I noticed you asking the question in #rust :)
14:33	hyPiRion	not afaik
14:33	augustl	:)
14:33	augustl	stepping away from the JVM is scary, so few communities other than the Clojure community has embraced persistent data structures
14:35	danielcompton	is it idiomatic to replace all :use's with :require :refer :all, on the way to requiring specific vars?
14:35	danielcompton	I mean referring specific vars
14:35	technomancy	danielcompton: :require/:as is better
14:35	technomancy	but getting rid of :use is a step in the right direction
14:35	llasram	(inc technomancy)
14:35	lazybot	⇒ 161
14:35	danielcompton	technomancy: yeah, that's the long term goal, but as an interim step
14:36	augustl	you can't type confuse without :use
14:37	hyPiRion	augustl: yeah, it's a bit sad. Only OCaml and Haskell is out there non-JVM, Rust only provides immutable but not persistent variants
14:38	llasram	augustl: you can't type "confusion" without "nfusi"
14:39	afhammad	whats the most efficient way to convert a lazy seq into a vector? vec, into [] ?
14:39	justin_smith	afhammad: use an algo that outputs a vector in the first place! (being a bit glib there, but really, if it exists it is likely the better option)
14:40	amalloy	afhammad: you'd have to be in a pretty unusual scenario for the conversion from seq to vector to be your bottleneck
14:40	joegallo	iirc (into [] ...) is the fastest, because it takes advantage of transients... but that's just something i think i heard once -- and yeah, amalloy is right, i think this is a somewhat silly exercise
14:40	amalloy	i certainly never worry about whether vec or into[] is faster
14:40	afhammad	amalloy: its not, just wondering
14:40	amalloy	as it happens, into is faster because vec is so old
14:41	danielcompton	is :use deprecated anywhere official or is it just convention?
14:41	afhammad	justin_smith: the lib i'm using returns a lazy-seq, and I'd like to repond to client with a vector. Transit defaults to a list if its a seq
14:42	technomancy	danielcompton: rich told me he didn't like it; not sure how to make it any more official than that =D
14:43	danielcompton	technomancy: haha
14:43	danielcompton	technomancy: putting it in the docstring could be a good place to mark it
14:43	technomancy	eh the docs for ns are a lost cause
14:45	EvanR	,(re-pattern (str (char 31)))
14:45	clojurebot	#""
14:45	Bronsa	amalloy: well this was easier than expected http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1598
14:46	EvanR	,(re-pattern (str (char 31) "+"))
14:46	clojurebot	#"+"
14:48	llasram	EvanR: Looks like clojurebot is printing strings with control characters rather oddly
14:48	amalloy	llasram: you think it's clojurebot, not your irc client?
14:48	EvanR	might be "raw"
14:49	llasram	amalloy: Oh. You are almost certainly correct.
14:49	EvanR	if theres no way to escape control chars, then there no choice
14:49	llasram	Well, maybe. I see very different things in my emacs ERC client output vs my emacs CIDR REPL output
14:50	EvanR	but you cant type non printable chars into a literal so it doesnt make much sense to show non printables as nothing
14:50	llasram	But IRC/client does seem the more likely culprit
14:50	EvanR	or "raw"
14:50	llasram	EvanR: In my local REPL I see the non-printables as still being part of the resulting string and Pattern
14:51	EvanR	in a terminal?
14:51	llasram	,(-> 31 char re-pattern str first int)
14:51	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Character cannot be cast to java.lang.String>
14:51	llasram	,(-> 31 char str re-pattern str first int)
14:51	clojurebot	31
14:51	llasram	It's definitely there
14:52	llasram	EvanR: In CIDER, in an Emacs buffer
14:52	EvanR	yes they are there
14:55	gfredericks	llasram: oh hey
14:55	justin_smith	&(char 31)
14:55	lazybot	⇒ \
14:55	danielcompton	technomancy: the docs for Clojure are fine once you no longer need them
14:55	justin_smith	just checking if lazybot handled it differently
14:55	amalloy	Bronsa: interestingly, it looks like regular expressions don't implement LiteralExpr
14:56	Bronsa	amalloy: uh? don't they get routerd through ConstantExpr?
14:56	technomancy	danielcompton: pretty much
14:56	amalloy	Bronsa: maybe? it was hard for me to find out for sure, but it doesn't look like it
14:58	Bronsa	amalloy: yeah they do in the analyze method no clause matches for regexes so they get to line 6514 and wrapped in a ConstantExpr
14:58	amalloy	i see
14:58	amalloy	i was looking for references to Pattern specifically, not for lack of references to Pattern
15:00	Bronsa	IIRC all literals + quoted forms are ConstantExprs, except from non-constant map/set/vectors
15:04	sdegutis	ouch, the clean coder took a shot at FP here http://blog.cleancoder.com/uncle-bob/2014/11/24/FPvsOO.html
15:04	llasram	gfredericks: is for horses?
15:07	justin_smith	sdegutis: I don't see any shots there at all
15:07	justin_smith	sdegutis: just a criticism of facile descriptions of the advantages
15:07	sdegutis	it's near the top
15:08	justin_smith	sdegutis: yes, like I said, those are facile descriptions of the advantages
15:08	sdegutis	great
15:08	justin_smith	sdegutis: he doesn't say fp is bad, he says those descriptions are bullshit
15:08	justin_smith	which is true
15:08	sdegutis	i dont understand your words
15:08	justin_smith	sdegutis: superficial
15:09	justin_smith	$dict facile
15:09	lazybot	justin_smith: adjective: Done or achieved with little effort or difficulty; easy. See Synonyms at easy.
15:09	dbasch	I stopped reading at “Objects are bags of functions, not bags of data.”
15:09	sdegutis	ok
15:09	sdegutis	my tests fail even though they should be passing
15:10	justin_smith	dbasch: he's playing no true scotsman about objects, but I actually like the version of OO he advocates for, at least
15:10	sdegutis	so im gonna go spend some time on reddit
15:10	danielcompton	polymorphism isn't inherent to OO
15:11	sdegutis	danielcompton: its harder to do in FP without some OO-style constructs
15:11	justin_smith	I'm actually disappointed to lazybot's definition response from dict - it didn't choose the meaning I had in mind, and did not indicate that other meanings exist :(
15:11	sdegutis	danielcompton: hence we have defmulti and defmethod, which have their own limitations/flaws
15:11	danielcompton	sdegutis: fair point
15:12	sdegutis	justin_smith: perhaps theres a reason im just finding out about $dict for the first time
15:12	justin_smith	heh
15:12	sdegutis	(hint: its because it sucks)
15:12	justin_smith	sdegutis: I gained a good overview of the available plugins when I updated lazybot and had to ensure I didn't break them
15:12	sdegutis	(no offense to whoever wrote it; im sure the limitations are because of the third party api it uses, not the clojure coder's job)
15:12	justin_smith	$phrases facile
15:12	lazybot	justin_smith: No phrases found for facile.
15:13	sdegutis	justin_smith: oh wait ur in charge of lazybot?
15:13	sdegutis	(inc justin_smith)
15:13	lazybot	⇒ 147
15:13	sdegutis	$karma sdegutis
15:13	lazybot	sdegutis has karma 6.
15:13	sdegutis	aww
15:13	justin_smith	sdegutis: not in charge, I just did a big upgrade of the irc client version and clojure version
15:13	sdegutis	(dec justin_smith)
15:13	lazybot	⇒ 146
15:13	justin_smith	sdegutis: because I whined at Raynes that lazybot went off line too much, and he was like "well, you can fix that"
15:14	dbasch	lazybot is in charge of lazybot obviously
15:15	justin_smith	$wotd
15:15	lazybot	justin_smith: dingle: A small wooded valley; a dell.
15:15	justin_smith	oh, what an excellent word for today
15:15	justin_smith	haha, off to tell the world that a synonym for Dell is Dingle
15:19	sdegutis	ok
15:19	sdegutis	Dude, you're getting a Dell!!
15:21	sdegutis	ok closing reddit; looks like my tests are still failing :(
15:26	cfleming	My award for coolest project I discovered at the conj: Graal & Truffle: http://www.chrisseaton.com/rubytruffle/cext/
15:26	cfleming	mind blown
15:29	sooheon	How does it relate to clojure?
15:29	sooheon	the java/jvm part?
15:30	sdegutis	cfleming: im also curious
15:31	cfleming	You could implement Clojure using Truffle and run it on Graal. Your Clojure implementation is a simple AST interpreter, you don't have to write bytecode or anything.
15:31	sdegutis	!
15:31	sdegutis	This could revolutionize Clojure as we know it!
15:32	cfleming	Graal is like a standalone hotspot, so Truffle talks to it about the parts of the AST that are running hot, and Graal compiles them.
15:32	hellofunk	does anyone know what "lvar" refers to on this line in a dnolen's sudoku solver: https://gist.github.com/swannodette/3217582#file-gistfile1-clj-L23
15:32	cfleming	The awesome thing is that it can perform all sorts of AST optimisations - inlining var derefs, HOF use, etc etc
15:33	cfleming	Also the Truffle AST is cross language, so you can inline Java into Clojure, or Clojure into Java
15:33	cfleming	Or Scala or JRuby into Clojure etc
15:33	cfleming	That blog post I pasted above is inlining C into Ruby :o
15:33	alejandro2	hellofunk: https://github.com/clojure/core.logic/wiki/A-Core.logic-Primer#Logic_Variables
15:34	dnolen_	hellofunk: that's programmatically constructing logic vars - the soduku example is fun but not a beginner core.logic thing
15:35	hellofunk	alejandro2 i read that but lvar is not in the core.logic api nor is it seen in actual code syntax in the primer. what does it actually point to in this code?
15:36	alejandro2	hellofunk: it's not https://github.com/clojure/core.logic/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/logic.clj#L706
15:36	alejandro2	?
15:37	xelxebar	ithub.com/swannodette/3217582#file-gistfile1-clj-L23 │ amano-
15:37	xelxebar	05:31 cfleming : The awesome thing is that it can perform all sorts of AST optimisations - inlining var derefs, HOF use, etc etc │ ambrosebs
15:38	hellofunk	alejandro2 awesome, thanks. it is not in the API spec, hence i did not know it existed. there is lvaro however: http://clojure.github.io/core.logic/#clojure.core.logic/lvaro
15:39	hellofunk	and LVar is listed as a type but if "lvar" is something worth calling, I'd have expected it in the API docs
15:49	sdegutis	Why is there no cond-let?
15:51	mi6x3m-alt	sdegutis: not needed very often :) time for macros!
15:51	turbofail	there should be a zombo-let
15:51	amalloy	sdegutis: because it's not obvious what it would do
15:51	justin_smith	turbofail: you can do anything, at zombo-let
15:51	amalloy	there was a cond-let in old-contrib, and ninjudd put one in useful, but they did different things
15:51	turbofail	with zombo-let the only limit is you!
15:51	amalloy	(neither of which was particularly useful)
15:52	dnolen_	hellofunk: core.logic docstrings need a lot of work
15:52	sdegutis	amalloy: It would let me combine my (let...(cond...))
15:54	dbasch	sdegutis: maybe you want a cond-reduce-frequencies-println-let
15:54	dbasch	what with the price of parentheses being sky high these days
15:56	danielcompton	dbasch: they're stockpiled in these warehouses http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/29/us-lme-warehousing-idUSTRE76R3YZ20110729
15:56	dbasch	danielcompton: (Reuters)… I see
15:58	danielcompton	cfleming: the rubytruffle thing is bananas
15:58	cfleming	danielcompton: Yeah, no doubt. Since Graal is basically hotspot, I came away thinking that's the future of JVM language design.
15:58	danielcompton	You may think of C as being a language that is natively compiled ahead of time to machine code, but that isn't an essential property of the language. As long as a C interpreter does the same thing with your C program as a C compiler would, it shouldn't make a difference to you.
15:59	cfleming	danielcompton: One problem is that for performance you end up paying the warmup twice - once for Graal and once for Truffle.
16:00	hellofunk	dnolen_ agreed. I guess there are a number of functions lurking in the library that can only be learned about by actually looking at the source.
16:00	cfleming	danielcompton: But Truffle could automatically turn your HOF uses into tight loops.
16:00	dnolen_	hellofunk: yep, docstring patches welcome
16:01	cfleming	danielcompton: Or could inline your JS code running on Nashorn into your Clojure code or your Java code.
16:01	danielcompton	cfleming: it looks like Jruby+Truffle+C extension is faster than MRI with the C extension?
16:02	danielcompton	cfleming: yo dawg
16:02	hyPiRion	cfleming: how problematic is technomancy/leiningen#1768 for cursive? Just wondering how to prioritise issues the upcoming months
16:02	lazybot	memoize makes reuse tricky -- https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/1768 is open
16:02	cfleming	danielcompton: In that case they tested, yeah
16:02	hellofunk	dnolen_ gotta learn how it all works before i can summarize anything for a docstring
16:03	cfleming	hyPiRion: It's a real problem. Users get extremely confused when trying to figure out why their profiles don't update when they change them on disk.
16:03	dnolen_	hellofunk: core.logic is by the far the most experimental of the libraries I maintain, sudokufd is really not any kind of entrypoint at all
16:04	dnolen_	hellofunk: part of the reason lvar is not doc'ed is because normal code doesn't use it
16:04	cfleming	hyPiRion: #1378 is less of an issue since I can (and do) work around it with a gory hack.
16:04	hellofunk	dnolen_ i understand the sudoku decently now that i know what lvar actually points to.
16:04	hellofunk	dnolen_ but at first i thought it was a typo
16:04	hyPiRion	cfleming: alright, so the faster, the better then. I'll see if I can poke into it during December
16:05	dnolen_	hellofunk: yes but my point remains, sudokufd mixes FP/LP in way I would consider relatively advanced
16:05	cfleming	hyPiRion: I have some other related issues with CWD, since the CWD is always "wrong" when calling into lein.
16:05	cfleming	hyPiRion: Thanks, I appreciate it. Happy to help with it if required too.
16:06	hellofunk	dnolen_ well advanced is subject, i've been following all of byrd's youtube videos and it seems pretty straightforward to minikanren-style logic
16:06	hellofunk	*subjective
16:06	cfleming	hyPiRion: I'll have some questions about the cwd var which might allow some workarounds for the problematic projects, but I haven't investigated much yet.
16:06	gfredericks	llasram: I was your parser thing
16:06	sdegutis	dbasch: good idea
16:06	cfleming	hyPiRion: I actually meant to talk to you at the conj about profiles too but forgot to when I had you
16:07	cfleming	hyPiRion: I'll send a mail when I'm no longer in an airport.
16:07	hyPiRion	cfleming: sure – feel free to jump into #leiningen as well if you have some specific ones
16:08	hyPiRion	and re: profiles, urgh. They are really nasty now, we're going to clean them up for 3.0
16:08	llasram	gfredericks: I'm afraid I'm failing to connect that sentence to semantic referents :-)
16:08	cfleming	hyPiRion: Great, I will do, thanks - I'm going to work on this code soon.
16:08	cfleming	hyPiRion: My lips are sealed!
16:08	cfleming	hyPiRion: Is there a rough timeframe for 3.0?
16:08	hellofunk	dnolen_ it's a shame about your posterious page, was all that content ported to your github blog?
16:09	hyPiRion	cfleming: hahah, even I have problems understanding profiles and merging at times
16:10	dnolen_	hellofunk: nope, posterous erased it w/o ever giving me the backup I requested - never again.
16:11	cfleming	dnolen_: That sucks. Did wayback machine or something have a copy?
16:11	dnolen_	cfleming: maybe?
16:11	hyPiRion	cfleming: I think technomancy could give the 3.0 timeframe better, but from what I gather, we just need to figure out what's we need to break from 2.x and 3.x, and how we're going to solve it
16:11	hellofunk	dnolen_ damn that's sucky ducky
16:11	hyPiRion	profiles will get freshed up as mentioned, but we still need to sort out how it's going to be done
16:13	cfleming	hyPiRion: Ok, so it's still a ways off then. I'll definitely need some kind of fix for the memoize issue before then. Everything else I have to do is somewhere on a scale of slightly ugly to really foul, but that I can't fix without fixing lein.
16:16	llasram	cfleming: You can't just load Leiningen all over again in another classloader?
16:16	llasram	I mean, that solution is obviously gross, but...
16:18	cfleming	llasram: Yeah, the problem is that I'm embedding lein in a long-running process. I could tear the namespaces down and re-load them every time I call in to lein, but that happens pretty frequently.
16:18	cfleming	llasram: That would be near the top of my lein-integration-grossness scale, but probably not right at the top.
16:19	hyPiRion	cfleming: alright. Feel free to submit (more) issues you think could benefit both Cursive and Lein. Should be no surprise that we'd love contributions as well, but there are only so many hours in a day :)
16:19	llasram	cfleming: I was suggesting something slightly different. If you look at how hugod does alembic, he uses classlojure to pull Leiningen and all deps (including Clojure) into their own isolated classloader stack
16:20	llasram	You could monitor project.clj and profile.clj for changes, and comparatively-easily teardown+reload the whole assemblage when they change
16:20	cfleming	hyPiRion: Yeah, I was planning to do some analysis to try to figure out how many of the memoize calls are totally spurious these days - I suspect some to most probably are. Certainly the profile stuff is. I'll take a look and comment on the issue.
16:21	cfleming	llasram: Interesting idea, I'll take a look, thanks.
16:21	hyPiRion	that'd be wonderful
16:21	cfleming	llasram: I'm not sure about loading another entire copy of Clojure in the same process, but I'll see if that's required or not.
16:21	cfleming	llasram: Thanks for the pointer!
16:21	llasram	np!
16:31	gfredericks	llasram: oh wait it was a printer
16:31	gfredericks	sorry I keep dropping out
16:31	gfredericks	anyhow I've thought about this printing problem a lot because of certain pains I've had
16:31	gfredericks	and I was wondering about the case where you want to supply a printing for a custom collection
16:32	gfredericks	which means you want to be able to "recur" for each of the elements
16:32	llasram	Right
16:32	gfredericks	does your library allow for that?
16:32	gfredericks	I didn't think the print-method signature was very compatible with that structure
16:33	llasram	gfredericks: Yep. That's the magic+danger. It swaps the value of the `print-method` var for a MultiFn subclass which injects the dynamic behavior
16:34	dmitrig01	hey! one of my java dependencies requires a JAR on my classpath; how do I add something to the classpath? using leiningen
16:34	llasram	gfredericks: So you can recursively invoke it, and get the same new behavior for each level of recurrence
16:34	gfredericks	llasram: aah gotcha -- so the idea is I call clojure.core/print-method and it magically works
16:34	llasram	Exactly
16:34	gfredericks	llasram: okay; what do you think of the idea of changing the signature so that the custom printer gets an extra arg for recuring?
16:35	gfredericks	(fn [x pw recur-fn] ...)
16:35	gfredericks	I've tried to solve this problem before and failed and I didn't think of that idea until I saw your lib
16:36	llasram	That would definitely be a nice general functional solution, but I don't know how to do it without being a different mechanism than `print-method`
16:37	llasram	Or maybe I'm not quite understanding your idea?
16:37	gfredericks	are you trying to piggy-back on the existing print-method functionality and that's the part you're saying wouldn't work?
16:37	llasram	Yes, exactly
16:38	llasram	I want all the code out there which already extends print-method to keep working
16:38	llasram	And not need to re-implement those printings to get the new behavior I want
16:38	gfredericks	yeah, probably in particular printing collections with the existing print-method wouldn't work anymore
16:38	gfredericks	yeah I think you're right.
16:39	llasram	Alas, the compromises of evolution
16:39	gfredericks	this issue pops up for me when I want to do serialization in a library without imposing on the user's extensions
16:39	gfredericks	I've needed both json & edn in different contexts
16:40	gfredericks	and they both use the same global-only extension points :(
16:40	aav	is there a way to extend built in protocol (IDeref) in my case, with some other protocol?
16:40	llasram	Whelp, if you don't mind the conceptual kludge of monkey-patching `print-method`, I believe letterpress should have you covered for EDN
16:41	llasram	I'll be using it in the next release of Parkour for exactly the same reason
16:41	sdegutis	Wht's parkour?
16:41	sdegutis	Petour Parkour?
16:41	llasram	sdegutis: https://github.com/damballa/parkour/
16:42	sdegutis	llasram: you wrote it?
16:42	llasram	yah
16:42	dbasch	aav: see https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure/1PYQIItNxg8
16:42	sdegutis	impressive
16:42	amalloy	aav: no, because it's an interface, not a protocol
16:43	aav	dbasch, amally: thanx
16:44	jkj	what are protocols to java actually?
16:44	jkj	are they anything?
16:44	aav	amalloy: sorry for misspelling your nick :)
16:44	dnolen_	jkj: they are not
16:44	llasram	jkj: In the JVM Clojure implementation they have a backing JVM interface
16:44	aav	i'm in ClojureScript, btw...
16:44	llasram	Oh, nm
16:45	jkj	dnolen_, llasram: ok
16:45	dnolen_	aav: not possible
16:45	amalloy	aav: your client will tab-complete nicks
16:51	gfredericks	llasram: the monkey patching sets up a dynamic var to use for local extension?
16:52	llasram	gfredericks: Pretty much
16:53	gfredericks	yeah I think for putting in a library I'd rather hand-roll something more independent; actually just basing it on a class<->tag sort of thing could be better for that lib
16:54	llasram	gfredericks: Philosophically I agree with you, but in practice I already have `print-method` implementations spread across a number of small libraries, and don't want to revisit them all
16:54	gfredericks	[{:class Foo :tag "bar" :encode #(...) :decode #(...)} ...]
16:54	gfredericks	llasram: yeah I can't argue with pragmatism
16:55	llasram	The monkey-patching is as safe as possible. It stores and stacks with the original value, so should compose with any other monkey-patchers. The replacing value is a MultiFn, and proxies all MultiFn-specific methods to the original value
16:56	llasram	It'd certainly be better if the facility were done in core, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it
16:56	justin_smith	dmitrig01: did someone address your question yet?
16:56	dmitrig01	justin_smith: no, but i was able to sort it out – thanks
16:56	gfredericks	llasram: thanks for the back&forth
16:57	justin_smith	dmitrig01: if the java lib is on maven it's easy, otherwise local install is an option
16:57	llasram	np. Best of luck with your approach :-)
16:57	justin_smith	dmitrig01: glad to hear you worked it out
16:57	dmitrig01	justin_smith: yeah, first i figred out how to do a local install, and then i realizezd it’s on maven anyway
16:57	justin_smith	dmitrig01: so you covered the basic options, awesome!
16:57	technomancy	http://timb.net/popular-languages.html
16:58	llasram	technomancy: huh
16:58	llasram	What does that mean?
16:59	llasram	The more people like solving toy problems in a language, the more popular it is in Rosetta Code?
16:59	technomancy	llasram: it means any page with numbers on it is a game you can play to win =)
16:59	llasram	heh
16:59	llasram	(not implying Racket is only good for toy problems)
17:00	technomancy	llasram: being right next to tcl is not that flattering; I get it =)
17:22	{blake}	REXX at #12!
17:22	engblom	If anyone has a suggestion for how I get rid of needing to write trice (if eaten...) in this I would appreciate. I also take any other suggestion for how to make it better: http://pastebin.com/GqTaWJSN
17:24	amalloy	engblom: (let [[new-snake eaten-food ...] (if eaten [...] [...])] ...) would be one way
17:40	Frozenlock	Is there a plugin to update all project dependencies and run the tests?
17:40	technomancy	why would you do that?
17:40	gfredericks	to get the freshest gems
17:41	gfredericks	er, eggs
17:41	gfredericks	er, ... hacks?
17:42	dbasch	gfredericks: while you’re at it, you might get all deps between t1 and t2, and test all combinations until one passes :P
17:43	Frozenlock	technomancy: Why I would want to get the newest dependencies? To get the all new and shiny things :-p
17:43	gfredericks	yeah search that exponential space for the largest passing sum of dependency versions
17:43	technomancy	in my experience newer things are less likely to work correctly
17:43	gfredericks	also a plugin that detects dependency conflicts and auto-generates PRs to offending libs to update their deps
17:44	Frozenlock	technomancy: that was the 'tests' part.
17:44	technomancy	Frozenlock: that's the other thing; writing a plugin that updates dependencies and runs tests is silly; each plugin should do only one thing =)
17:45	justin_smith	Frozenlock: lein-ancient will tell you what has newer versions. But obviously there are philosophical differences with the idea of automatically upping versions
17:45	justin_smith
17:45	technomancy	but yeah, in my experience the breakage caused by library upgrades are usually edge cases that generally have poor test coverage
17:46	Frozenlock	justin_smith: thanks, at least I can quickly see which one is important.
17:46	amalloy	gfredericks: largest passing sum? i'ma make sure my libraries increase version numbers by 10,000 each release
17:46	gfredericks	amalloy: #lifehack #protip
17:46	Frozenlock	Like when compojure/ring updated after the #_ drama.
17:46	amalloy	there was #_ drama?
17:46	amalloy	are you thinking of #=?
17:46	Frozenlock	Ah, yes
17:47	Frozenlock	The thing I use everyday, obviously
17:47	gfredericks	clojurebot: #_ is the safer version of #=
17:47	clojurebot	In Ordnung
17:47	weavejester	It wasn't even #=, I don't think. The problem was that even read-eval false is unsafe.
17:47	weavejester	Though maybe I'm not remembering right.
17:47	Frozenlock	Wasn't that discovered when talking about #=?
17:48	amalloy	weavejester: no, you were right. because of the record syntax
17:48	technomancy	it was both
17:48	amalloy	#java.net.Socket["google.com" 80] or something like that
17:49	weavejester	It was limited to cookie sessions, I remember that.
17:57	teslanick	Are there any patterns out there for "calling back" when some core.async thing has been done? Like: "I hand you a message and let me know when you're done munching on it."
17:58	justin_smith	teslanick: that's why go returns a channel
17:58	justin_smith	the channel will get the return value of the go block
17:59	andyf	amalloy: This link may have the details you were remembering http://clojuredocs.org/clojure.core/read
18:00	amalloy	hey, i guessed the socket one exactly right
18:01	teslanick	justin_smith: I'm thinking more like, "I've put a message on a channel to parts unknown and I'm expecting a 'call back' at some point" - obviously this could be just a callback, but I don't know if there are any worn-in patterns here.
18:01	andyf	Clojure 1.5 may have closed the hole of calling Java constructors when read-eval is false but I would think long and hard before relying on that.
18:01	csd_	I'm trying to do a nested loop/recur, and the inner loop's binding isn't resetting after the first iteration. Is this something I have to do on my own?
18:02	hiredman	csd_: what do you mean?
18:02	justin_smith	teslanick: one way I have seen is to pass a channel with the message, such that a result or a "do something" trigger is expected on that channel
18:03	hiredman	the binding doesn't "reset" (I mean technically it does) but the mental model is a recursive function call, a recursive function call doesn't "reset" a binding, it is a new call
18:03	andyf	The FileWriter example is a bit more eye-opening for those who are accustomed to thinking of constructors that only alloc mem
18:03	csd_	I have in the inner loop, begin at [x 0] and then stop recurring when x = 5. So then control transfers back to the outer loop, which then executes another iteration. But then when control comes back to the inner loop again, the binding is still at 5, and so the loop doesn't execute.
18:04	hiredman	csd_: yeah, so if you replaced the loop with a call to a function, would you expect the value of x to change?
18:04	csd_	I would think so
18:04	hiredman	x is an immutable binding, the value doesn't change, recur doesn't change the binding it is like a recursive function call
18:04	teslanick	justin_smith: I can see value in that; I had considered going that road, but thought it might be insane somehow.
18:04	csd_	Shouldn't it be calling a new instance of loop effectively
18:04	csd_	which would rebind
18:05	hiredman	(defn f [x] (if (zero? x) x (do (f x) (g x))))
18:05	hiredman	can f change the value of x that g sees?
18:06	csd_	i don't believe so
18:06	hiredman	(defn f [x] (if (zero? x) x (do (let [x 1] (f x)) (g x))))
18:06	hiredman	what value of x does g see? does it see 1?
18:06	csd_	yes
18:07	csd_	no wait
18:07	csd_	no
18:07	hiredman	(defn f [x] (if (zero? x) x (do (loop [x 1] (f x)) (g x))))
18:07	hiredman	same thing
18:07	hiredman	the x in the loop is a binding in a different scope form the x that is a function parameter
18:08	hiredman	even if x was a mutable binding, the new scope means it is different
18:08	amalloy	csd_: do you have a more specific code sample that's not working? your vague description has elicited an answer from hiredman which may be relevant but may be addressing a misunderstanding you don't actually have
18:08	csd_	I do although it's sort of complicated, one moment
18:08	justin_smith	&(loop [a 0] (loop [b 0] (print [a b]) (when (< b 3) (recur (inc b)))) (when (< a 3) (recur (inc a))))
18:08	lazybot	⇒ [0 0][0 1][0 2][0 3][1 0][1 1][1 2][1 3][2 0][2 1][2 2][2 3][3 0][3 1][3 2][3 3]nil
18:09	justin_smith	nested loops work just fine
18:09	csd_	https://www.refheap.com/93899
18:09	hiredman	(let [x 1] (let [x 2]) x) ; what is the value of x
18:09	hiredman	(loop [x 1] (loop [x 2]) x) ; what is the value of x
18:10	amalloy	csd_: more usefully trimmed: https://www.refheap.com/96c1de661ede454cd720ec531
18:11	amalloy	and in that code, of course x starts at 0 there, not at 5 or whatever
18:11	csd_	ama
18:11	csd_	I realize that, but when I execute it, when y >= 1, x is always 5
18:11	csd_	or 4 i guess
18:11	hiredman	what makes you think that?
18:12	csd_	hiredman: my results after running it
18:12	amalloy	well like, that is just obviously false. so we have to figure out why you think that
18:12	dbasch	csd_: did you try the old (println x) in each iteration?
18:12	hiredman	csd_: put a (println x) at the top of the loop
18:13	hiredman	you will either see 0, or some succession of numbers, either way you will be able to find the bug in your code
18:14	hiredman	if you only see 0 it means the when around the recur is never happening, if you see a succession of values, something else is happening which ends up with oyu only seeing 5 on the way out
18:15	sdegutis	Is it possible to create an anonymous var, i.e. without def?
18:15	amalloy	&(doc with-local-vars)
18:15	lazybot	⇒ "Macro ([name-vals-vec & body]); varbinding=> symbol init-expr Executes the exprs in a context in which the symbols are bound to vars with per-thread bindings to the init-exprs. The symbols refer to the var objects themselves, and must be accessed with var-get and var-set"
18:15	csd_	amalloy: I'm telling you it's what I'm getting after putting those printlns in
18:15	justin_smith	sdegutis: with-local-vars, but in practice it's mostly useless
18:15	csd_	just did it again
18:16	sdegutis	amalloy: Ha, I was just looking at that function out of curious too, assuming it was gonna be completely unrelated.
18:16	danielcompton	Frozenlock: lein ancient can also run tests while upgrading and roll back breaking changes
18:16	sdegutis	justin_smith: I want to run some tests on a function that takes a function var, but I don't want to do a ton of defn.
18:16	hiredman	where did you put the println, and what exactly did it print?
18:16	gfredericks	(inc eastwood)
18:16	lazybot	⇒ 2
18:16	dbasch	sdegutis: also you can create regular variables without def
18:16	csd_	https://www.refheap.com/93903 and right above the inner if statement
18:17	sdegutis	dbasch: how?
18:17	dbasch	e.g. with intern
18:17	sdegutis	Oh right!
18:17	sdegutis	Thanks :)
18:17	justin_smith	dbasch: that still creates namespace scope
18:18	Frozenlock	danielcompton: Interesting! As a side note, lein-ancien dependencies are 'out-of-date' :-p
18:18	dbasch	justin_smith: yes, that’s what I meant by regular :)
18:18	amalloy	csd_: right, and x is 0 every time. never 5
18:18	danielcompton	teslanick: I think you want https://clojure.github.io/core.async/#clojure.core.async/put!
18:18	hiredman	because the when is getting false and the recur is never happening
18:19	teslanick	danielcompton: That would indeed be my preferred way of putting thing to the "lemme get back to you" channel
18:20	csd_	amalloy: I don't see why the loop wouldn't be resetting though
18:20	Bronsa	,(with-local-vars [x nil] x)
18:20	clojurebot	#<Var: --unnamed-->
18:20	hiredman	csd_: put in a println for (and (< x board-size) (< (inc pos) board-size)) right before the when
18:20	amalloy	csd_: i don't have enough ?s on my keyboard for "huh???????????". the loop is obviously "resetting" to 0 every time. x is 0 every time you enter that loop
18:21	csd_	oh crap i see what's wrong now
18:21	hiredman	,(count (for [x (range 5) y (range 5)] nil))
18:21	clojurebot	25
18:21	csd_	:-/
18:22	hiredman	so you are not seeing 25 lines there
18:25	sdegutis	Thanks everyone for your time.
18:31	teslanick	justin_smith, danielcompton: Thanks for you help -- it appears to be working well!
18:31	danielcompton	teslanick: no problem, I take my payments in bitcoin
18:32	teslanick	I'm bitcoin-poor. I put all my real monies into dogecoin and gold.
18:33	dbasch	(tip teslanick 0.1 :verify)
18:41	TimMc	amalloy: Life hack: You can actually press a key multiple times, you don't need a separate key for each time you want to use a character in a sentence!
18:42	TimMc	I only have two "?" keys myself.
18:42	amalloy	TimMc: i am trying to support the hard-working americans in the keyboard-manufacturing sector
18:42	amalloy	i throw out my keyboard and switch to a new one every time a key is used five times
18:42	amalloy	except E. i'm not made of money
18:43	TimMc	amalloy: http://www.likecool.com/Home/Seating/Wolfgang%20Keyboard%20Bench%20Made%20from%202000%20Keys/Wolfgang-Keyboard-Bench-Made-from-2000-Keys.jpg
18:44	technomancy	amalloy: we should talk
18:45	amalloy	technomancy: i can't buy an atreus. "Nothing quite matches the satisfaction of typing on a keyboard you've constructed with your own hands" just sounds too pretentious to me
18:46	{blake}	,(map #(assoc {} (first %) (:c (second %))) {:one {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} :two {:a 10 :b 20 :c 30}})
18:46	clojurebot	({:one 3} {:two 30})
18:47	{blake}	Does what I want but I still =dont= =like= =it=.
18:48	llasram	{blake}: what are you trying to do?
18:48	amalloy	{blake}: that is a weird way to write it, even if that is what you want
18:49	amalloy	,(let [m {:one {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} :two {:a 10 :b 20 :c 30}}] (for [[k v] m] {k (:c v)}))
18:49	clojurebot	({:one 3} {:two 30})
18:49	{blake}	amalloy: Thanks.
18:49	{blake}	llasram: That's what I was trying to do. =P
18:50	amalloy	,(map (comp (partial apply hash-map) (juxt key (comp :c val))) {:one {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} :two {:a 10 :b 20 :c 30}})
18:50	clojurebot	({:one 3} {:two 30})
18:50	amalloy	in case readability is not a concern
18:50	{blake}	lol
18:51	{blake}	(inc amalloy)
18:51	lazybot	⇒ 199
18:51	{blake}	holy cow...that's close
18:51	turbofail	point-free, as free as the wind blows
18:52	{blake}	Freedom's just another word for no points left to lose.
19:06	dbasch	(inc amalloy) because round numbers
19:07	amalloy	dbasch: and then an automatic dec for a bad inc parser?
19:07	dbasch	(inc amalloy
19:08	dbasch	at least that didn’t work as expected
19:08	amalloy	)
19:08	dbasch	that reminds me of some episode of a tv show I saw on a plane
19:10	marcuscreo	howdy all
19:10	dbasch	Big Bang Theory, episode named “Closure”
20:12	gfredericks	just ran eastwood on a codebase I hadn't before; it found 1.5 legitimate problems, and dozens of illegitimate ones
20:12	gfredericks	the latter coming from about 4 different classes of warnings
20:13	gfredericks	arguably one of those classes is a decent thing to warn about, but it's caused by a macro from a library
20:16	justin_smith	gfredericks: yeah, I don't think eastwood knows how to tell what came from a perfectly acceptable macroexpansion vs. sketchy code
20:18	justin_smith	gfredericks: andyf mentioned this when I suggested that fully namespace qualified symbols should get a warning (espeically if the namespace is not present anywhere in the require block)
20:18	justin_smith	turns out macros made with syntax quote do that all over, and eastwood can't tell the difference
20:21	gfredericks	yeah
20:21	gfredericks	in this case it's testing a constant
20:21	gfredericks	which could be avoided in the library's macro at the expense of extra complexity
20:27	verma	does clj-refactor require a running repl?
20:28	verma	iow, can I use it with clojurescript etc. as well?
20:28	weavejester	verma: Not for a lot of it
20:29	verma	weavejester, nice, and works for cljs?
20:29	weavejester	verma: I haven't tried, but I don't see why not.
20:29	verma	weavejester, awesome, will give it a shot
20:29	verma	(inc weavejester)
20:29	lazybot	⇒ 9
20:30	verma	ze what?
20:30	verma	(inc weavejester)
20:30	lazybot	⇒ 10
20:30	verma	since you answered two questions :P
20:30	weavejester	Okay :)
20:33	kenrestivo	i think sitting in that wolfgang bench would make too much noise
20:37	danielcompton	does build.clojure.org publish snapshots anywhere?
20:38	danielcompton	I can see they were built at http://build.clojure.org/job/core.logic/lastSuccessfulBuild/org.clojure$core.logic/
20:38	danielcompton	but I'm not sure how to specify them
20:40	danielcompton	gfredericks: you should try kibit as well while you're linting
20:55	andyf	gfredericks: What Eastwood version? And is it suspicious-expression warning ?
20:56	andyf	If yes, and version 0.2.0, this is the (hopefully short lived) cost of no longer being fooled about things like (-> 1 (= 1)) by doing macro expansion
20:58	andyf	Short term improvement might be implementing something like "disable warning type x in macro expansions of my.name.space/bar"
20:59	andyf	Over weekend I was experimenting with adding tools.reader support to remember all comments and what forms they precede, in hopes of using specially formatted comments to annotate ASTs
21:24	sdegutis	Just found a new variation on "simple yet powerful", namely, "concise, powerful"! https://github.com/clojure/test.check
21:25	turbofail	simperful, powcise!
21:28	sdegutis	(inc turbofail)
21:28	lazybot	⇒ 5
21:39	gfredericks	andyf: 0.2.0, yes
21:40	gfredericks	andyf: yeah I have a lot of suspicious-expressions from -> chains ending in (or x)
21:41	andyf	And they were originally created from something besides a 2-arg or, hopefully, since I should have silenced that case
21:43	andyf	Wait, they were inside -> expressions, and thus should have had at least 2 args after macro expand?
21:44	abaker	what's the library du jour for logging -- timbre? tools.logging?
21:44	danielcompton	abaker: clojure.tools.logging
21:46	abaker	thanks
21:50	andyf	gfredericks: If it is open source code base, would be interested in testing it myself. If not, and it uses core.match, I have plenty of similar examples already. In any case, some better form of warning suppression that can be limited to some macro expansions but not others is in order.
21:52	andyf	I may be worrying over something easy to solve, but syntax quote may be tricky to annotate at expression granularity, inside of the syntax quote expression.
21:53	andyf	Because of how the reader transforms those. Makes me curious to know how cfleming does things in Cursive.
22:08	gfredericks	andyf: neither oss nor core.match
22:36	sdegutis	I should look into core.match more furtherly.
22:48	sdegutis	What does this do?
22:48	sdegutis	https://github.com/weavejester/clofor/blob/master/src/clofor/core.clj
22:49	justin_smith	sdegutis: looks like it could be the beginnings of a source code reformatter
22:50	sdegutis	Earlier on, I had guessed it was some kind of ad-hoc language parser.
22:50	sdegutis	Your idea sounds legit.
22:55	legittalon1	,(= '' 'butts')
22:55	clojurebot	true
22:55	legittalon1	why
22:55	amalloy	legittalon1: ' doesn't delimit strings
22:56	legittalon1	oh, dammit I keep getting bit by that
22:56	amalloy	that's the same as (= (quote (quote (quote butts')))), ie comparing one thing to nothing
22:59	sdegutis	legittalon1: haha
22:59	sdegutis	,~(= '' 'butts')
22:59	clojurebot	#<IllegalStateException java.lang.IllegalStateException: Attempting to call unbound fn: #'clojure.core/unquote>
22:59	sdegutis	,'(= '' 'butts')
22:59	clojurebot	(= (quote (quote (quote butts'))))
22:59	sdegutis	Well there you go.
23:00	sdegutis	(dec amalloy)
23:00	lazybot	⇒ 198
23:00	legittalon1	usually the syntax highlighting warns me but I was on codewars and the highlighting is deifferent
23:00	sdegutis	legittalon1: same thing happened with me in Swift earlier today
23:00	sdegutis	tried to use '', saw the syntax was weird, switched to ""
23:00	sdegutis	*saw the syntax highlighting was
23:01	amalloy	thanks, sdegutis. i appreciate the extra entropy of your random inc/dec drivebys
23:01	legittalon1	(inc amalloy)
23:01	lazybot	⇒ 199
23:01	legittalon1	:)
23:01	sdegutis	amalloy: it was gonna be inc but you were getting too close to 200
23:02	sdegutis	(dec legittalon1)
23:02	lazybot	⇒ -1
23:02	legittalon1	,(inc legittalon)
23:02	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: legittalon in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
23:02	legittalon1	,(def legittalon 1000)
23:02	clojurebot	#'sandbox/legittalon
23:02	legittalon1	(inc legittalon)
23:02	lazybot	⇒ 1
23:03	sdegutis	LOL
23:03	sdegutis	,legittalon1
23:03	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: legittalon1 in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
23:03	legittalon1	well, I'm still pretty new to this lol
23:03	sdegutis	Well I've had some wine.
23:03	legittalon1	aha! I should have some wine
23:04	amalloy	we had a scotch tasting at work today
23:04	insamniac	are you hiring?
23:04	sdegutis	lol
23:05	amalloy	i think so. factual is hiring like always
23:05	insamniac	maybe i can sweep parentheses or something
23:05	sdegutis	I'm using compojure+clout and eschewing its GET-style macros.
23:05	legittalon1	sign me up for factual
23:05	legittalon1	I'll learn real quick
23:06	legittalon1	0 to 100 real quick
23:06	sdegutis	It's nice, I can define routes as functions like (defn ^:login show-products-page [params] ...)
23:06	sdegutis	legittalon1: What's factual?
23:06	justin_smith	sdegutis: what does compojure actually give you without those macros that you wouldn't get from ring/clout by themselves?
23:06	legittalon1	idk I'm guessing this http://www.factual.com/jobs/clojure
23:06	insamniac	sdegutis: http://factual.com/jobs
23:06	insamniac	(dec insamniac)
23:06	lazybot	You can't adjust your own karma.
23:06	insamniac	:(
23:07	legittalon1	(inc insamniac)
23:07	lazybot	⇒ 3
23:07	sdegutis	justin_smith: a function that takes handlers and turns them into a single handler that cascades requests among them until it finds one.
23:07	legittalon1	:)
23:07	legittalon1	I'm trying to get a remote gig tbh not ready for a clojure job though. JS is my homeland
23:08	sdegutis	justin_smith: I'm using compojure.core/make-route and /routes
23:08	justin_smith	OK
23:08	sdegutis	justin_smith: And I'm eschewing let-request for something more like this: https://gist.github.com/sdegutis/b376cf100e337941d826
23:10	sdegutis	The exact protocol is a bit in flux right now, but I think I'm settling on: if the first element of :argslist is 'req, pass the request there and precede to the next step omitting the first parameter; then use fancy-call on this with (:params req).
23:10	sdegutis	This allows you to just specify the params, or if need be, to add the request as the first param too.
23:11	justin_smith	sdegutis: have you seen how similar your fancy-call is to prismatic's fnk by the way?Ehttps://github.com/Prismatic/plumbing/tree/master/src/plumbing/fnk#fnk-syntax
23:11	sdegutis	you broke my autolink :)
23:11	justin_smith	https://github.com/Prismatic/plumbing/tree/master/src/plumbing/fnk#fnk-syntax
23:12	sdegutis	justin_smith: Oh nice!
23:12	sdegutis	I feel validated :)
23:13	justin_smith	difference is, instead of making a new kind of call, they make a new kind of defn
23:13	sdegutis	Granted, I'm not a fan of using other people's APIs, only their implementations, so that I have freedom to change my APIs as my own domain evolves.
23:14	sdegutis	Also, I prefer to push it on the caller side, not the callee side, so that I can just use Plain Old Clojure Things™ like defn.
23:14	sdegutis	Using metadata allows me to be creative while still maintaining flexibility and simplicity.
23:14	sdegutis	Like, I can do (defn ^:route ^:eula download-product [] ...) to specify that (1) this is definitely a route and not a typo, and (2) it requires the user to sign a EULA before continuing.
23:15	sdegutis	That doesn't require any special requires or APIs.
23:36	kenrestivo	any ideas what those weird blue and green circles mean in crossclj? i.e. http://crossclj.info/ns/rewrite-clj/0.3.11/project.clj.html
23:37	hiredman	Uses 6 artifacts; transitively uses 110 artifacts