#clojure – 2014-11-14

2014-11-14

02:35	cosmicexplorer	test
02:35	TEttinger	mic check, 1, 2
02:36	cosmicexplorer	we're good to go
02:36	TEttinger	welcome to clojure, here's some bots. ##["lazybot"]
02:36	lazybot	⇒ ["lazybot"]
02:36	TEttinger	,"clojurebot"
02:36	clojurebot	"clojurebot"
02:56	godd2	"redbot, standing by"
03:06	amalloy	neat, i didn't know that M-q takes a prefix argument to justify the text
04:04	engblom	Where should I look if I want to make simple clickable 2D graphics with Clojure for Android mobile devices?
04:04	engblom	A nice sample project to look at would be nice and of course some reference material to check up things.
04:14	sm0ke	well said justin_smith
04:23	m00nlight	When I use some clojure code in an java project using storm, it seems conflict of clojure.core/some? with backtype.storm/some?, does anyone have sollutions?
04:24	Glenjamin	m00nlight: see the example on https://clojuredocs.org/clojure.core/refer-clojure
04:27	m00nlight	Glenjamin: Thanks, I will have a try right now
04:27	sm0ke	m00nlight: you will still get that warning
04:27	sm0ke	unless you are willing to compile and edit storm code
04:29	TEttinger	engblom: I know libgdx works on android, and play-clj is a wonderful clojure binding to that library, but I don't know how well clojure in general runs on android
04:34	TEttinger	$google play-clj
04:34	lazybot	[oakes/play-clj · GitHub] https://github.com/oakes/play-clj
04:34	TEttinger	^ engblom
04:35	m00nlight	sm0ke : but in fact it cause a exception
04:35	TEttinger	"The mobile support is currently experimental, and may have poor performance or even fail to run on some devices." That mainly refers to iOS, which has been trouble to perform well on even for the main lib in java
04:35	m00nlight	sm0ke:
04:35	m00nlight	java.lang.IllegalStateException: Attempting to call unbound fn: #'backtype.storm.util/some?
04:35	m00nlight	at clojure.lang.Var$Unbound.throwArity(Var.java:43) ~[clojure-1.6.0.jar:na]
04:36	sm0ke	,(doc some?)
04:36	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns true if x is not nil, false otherwise."
04:37	m00nlight	sm0ke: I already exclude the some? in core
04:37	m00nlight	(doc some?)
04:37	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns true if x is not nil, false otherwise."
04:37	m00nlight	nil
04:38	TEttinger	did you then include backtype.storm ?
04:38	TEttinger	I guess the word is require or use
04:38	sm0ke	ah nice catch TEttinger
04:38	sm0ke	m00nlight: what are you trying to do?
04:39	m00nlight	Very simple code implement in clojure for some other Java program to use in storm
04:39	TEttinger	m00nlight, do you want to call storm's some? or your own some?
04:39	sm0ke	run storm of clojure 1.6 is not possible unless storm updates it
04:39	TEttinger	or clojure's some? i mean
04:39	m00nlight	TEttinger: So I need to use an old version of clojure?
04:40	TEttinger	1.5 isn't that old, actually...
04:40	TEttinger	sm0ke, do you think 1.5 will work?
04:40	sm0ke	yes
04:41	sm0ke	storm has updated to 1.5
04:41	m00nlight	sm0ke: OK. Thanks, I will try to use clojure 1.5 instead
04:49	m00nlight	sm0ke: TEttinger: Glenjamin: Thanks very much, problem solved :)
04:49	TEttinger	woo
04:49	TEttinger	(inc sm0ke)
04:49	lazybot	⇒ 7
04:51	sm0ke	storm is notorius with respect to clojure compatibility
04:52	mnngfltg	Vim users rejoice! I've created an "alternate star": https://www.refheap.com/93358
04:53	mnngfltg	So you can move your cursor over a namespace and hit `_` to cycle through all uses of that namespace in your code.
04:53	sm0ke	and i am not sure where if that code style does any good
04:54	TEttinger	is that vimscript, mnngfltg?
04:54	mnngfltg	tettinger yes I think :)
04:55	TEttinger	that's _ in non-insert mode, right? :)
05:09	whodidthis_	how does one eval just a single line or symbol in fireplace
05:11	mnngfltg	Tettinger, right
05:12	mnngfltg	whodidthis_, a single form (the one under the cursor): `cpp`
05:13	whodidthis_	what if i just want to see what is up in a symbol without writing (println mythingie)
05:15	engblom	TEttinger: Thanks!
05:15	whodidthis_	return contents of mythingie without writing println around it i mean
05:16	engblom	I thought (or ...) was always taking the arguments in order.
05:26	engblom	(first vector) will give the first element rather than using (nth 0 vector). Is there a similar thing for changing the first element rather than using (assoc vector 0 value) ?
05:28	sm0ke	,(cons 0 (rest [1 2 3]))
05:28	clojurebot	(0 2 3)
05:29	engblom	sm0ke: the same long as (assoc [1 2 3] 0 0)
05:29	engblom	,(assoc [1 2 3] 0 0)
05:29	clojurebot	[0 2 3]
05:30	sm0ke	engblom: thats pretty short imo
05:30	engblom	Maybe there is not a ready function for changing the first element and this is how it is done normally
05:31	engblom	,(nth [1 2 3] 0)
05:31	clojurebot	1
05:31	engblom	,(first [1 2 3])
05:31	clojurebot	1
05:32	engblom	What I meant is that in the same way as (first ...) is more elegant than (nth ...) for getting the first element, I was wondering if there is more elegant ways for changing the first rather than refering with an index.
05:34	hyPiRion	engblom: no, but if you use the list/vector as a stack, you can use pop, conj and peek
05:35	hyPiRion	,(conj 0 (pop (list 1 2 3)))
05:35	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection>
05:35	hyPiRion	,(conj (pop (list 1 2 3)) 0)
05:35	clojurebot	(0 2 3)
06:25	dysfun	hrm, is there something in ring.middleware.session i've missed for setting how long the cookie will be valid? i see the cookie options but those don't appear to take functions, in which case how can i provide a DateTime (which it requires for Expires:) when it's a middleware?
06:26	dysfun	i'm using the cookie store
07:21	dysfun	is there an idiomatic way to rethrow an exception, adding extra information?
07:22	dysfun	preferably one that might reasonably be understood by timbre so there's helpful information in the logs
07:24	clgv	dysfun: only the java way. you can wrap the exception in a new one and throw that one or just throw the current exception
07:24	hyPiRion	you can bounce with ex-info tricks. Lemme make a macro/function for that
07:25	dysfun	:)
07:32	hyPiRion	dysfun: https://www.refheap.com/93366
07:32	hyPiRion	Not sure how that works with timbre, but you can add data to the exception like this
07:34	hyPiRion	actually, this is a bit better: https://www.refheap.com/93367
07:34	dysfun	hrm, i'm not guaranteed to be getting an ExceptionInfo though. I'd like to catch Exception more generally and then turn that into an ExceptionInfo
07:34	hyPiRion	multiple clauses.
07:34	hyPiRion	Oh.
07:35	hyPiRion	Well, you can add another catch for Exception afterwards, and let the map be an empty one
07:36	hyPiRion	There, I updated it to do just that. Same link as latest
07:36	dysfun	I suppose in those cases, I can just create a new one, putting the original exception in the map of info. It's not ideal, but i can postprocess it
07:37	dysfun	hrm, the colour scheme on refheap is quite nice on the eyes
07:38	dysfun	hyPiRion: thanks for the help
07:38	hyPiRion	dysfun: no problem, hope it's useful for you
07:39	dysfun	:)
07:48	dysfun	hyPiRion: also why is it that so often the problem that makes people understand why macros are special involves exceptions? Are they really more tedious in most languages? I've never thought so.
07:48	dysfun	well, no more than other things
07:52	hyPiRion	dysfun: Well, most things macros are used for is control flow related. Either through looping (dotimes, doseq) or exceptions. Most other things can just be solved by functions
07:53	dysfun	yeah. i find the lack of first class anonymous functions and closures to be much more annoying
07:56	hyPiRion	I feel that persistent data structures and functional programming matters more, but I suppose that's because most of the useful macros are already included in Clojure
07:58	dysfun	yes, i'm liking them both a lot. i found it very hard to program an imperative language recently after about 6 months of almost full time clojure
07:58	dysfun	a lot of my imperative code has smelled functional for years though
07:58	dysfun	(damn you, elisp!)
07:59	hyPiRion	hah – for me it was a lot harder to transition. Took a lot of time to unlearn mutable data structures.
08:02	dysfun	yes, i admit i struggled with that at first
08:02	dysfun	but i've come to prefer it
08:03	dysfun	but i used to program a lot of perl, which has map and grep built in
08:03	hyPiRion	me too – much easier to work with after the struggle was over
08:53	sveri	Hi, anyone here using clara (rule system) and knows how to generate rules on the fly?
09:07	sveri	Or can I somehow create namespaces on the fly in clj / cljs and add rules and whatever to it to evaluate it in memory then?
09:12	hyPiRion	sveri: yeah, you can create namespaces on the fly in clj. Not sure how clara works, but I wouldn't be surprised if you could make "anonymous" rules on the fly.
09:15	sveri	hyPiRion: thanks, something more to read about :-)
09:54	zand`	Anyone using the debugger in cursive clojure? I can't seem to get it to stop at a breakpoint in a very simple test.. :-/
10:04	gfredericks	,'ping
10:04	clojurebot	ping
10:17	justin_smith	$ping
10:17	lazybot	justin_smith: Ping completed in 0 seconds.
10:25	gfredericks	~ping
10:25	clojurebot	PONG!
10:41	puredanger	idle Friday question - one change as a side effect of proposed changes in http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1546 is that vec would no longer guarantee a new vector instance. If passed a vector, it would simply return it. I imagine that 99.9???% of users would benefit from this change in meaning (by saving 100+ ns every time this is done).
10:42	puredanger	Does anyone know of a case where a library actually relies on this "new vector instance" behavior? it would have to be something where identity is important (not just equality)
10:42	justin_smith	puredanger: going on intuition alone, I would have naively assumed vec already did that
10:42	puredanger	http://crossclj.info/fun/clojure.core/vec.html might jog your memory
10:42	justin_smith	(inc crossclj)
10:42	lazybot	⇒ 3
10:42	puredanger	justin_smith: agreed. I'm looking for the odd duck here.
10:42	puredanger	(inc crossclj)
10:42	lazybot	⇒ 4
10:42	puredanger	for sure
10:42	puredanger	I have been regularly using it to answer questions like this
10:44	verma	is this also the place for clojure-clr? or is there a dedicate channel for it?
10:44	justin_smith	hmm - I'll add a crossclj lookup plugin to my "lazybot nice to have" list - seems it would be straightforward to do
10:44	puredanger	verma: questions welcome here, not sure if there is a separate channel
10:44	EvanR	puredanger: if anyone is relying on something like that, they deserve to get broke by this ;)
10:45	verma	puredanger, sure thanks :)
10:45	justin_smith	EvanR: well the docs did explicitly say it would always make a new vec
10:45	puredanger	EvanR: I somewhat sympathize with this. I think Rich is on board with that too.
10:45	EvanR	the ideal of referential transparency and all
10:45	puredanger	justin_smith: the docs will change
10:45	EvanR	justin_smith: yurg
10:46	justin_smith	puredanger: right, just my 2¢ regarding "anyone who expected it deserves breakage"
10:46	puredanger	this is definitely a semantic (potentially breaking) change in behavior, but one that I think is extremely subtle
10:47	stuartsierra	I would be surprised if it broke anything.
10:48	puredanger	agreed, just trying to uncover that surprise early :)
10:49	puredanger	I've looked through many usages found in crossclj and I have a hard time finding anything that relies on this "new" behavior
10:50	Bronsa	(inc crossclj)
10:50	lazybot	⇒ 5
10:51	kungi	(inc crossclj)
10:51	lazybot	⇒ 6
10:55	EvanR	whoever decided that and then decided it needed to be documented as such also deserves breakage
10:55	EvanR	creative destruction
10:57	puredanger	one possible use case for old behavior would be to ensure the removal of meta
10:57	puredanger	,(meta (vec (with-meta [1 2] {:foo "foo"})))
10:57	clojurebot	nil
10:57	EvanR	what is meta :(
10:58	TimMc	yuck
10:58	puredanger	metadata
10:58	EvanR	very powerful
10:58	EvanR	is metadata mutable?
10:58	TimMc	EvanR: with-meta attaches metadata to certain Clojure objects (gives you back a new object); meta retrieves it.
10:59	puredanger	collections generally retain meta through collection functions
10:59	puredanger	sequence functions generally do not retain meta
10:59	puredanger	(since they convert the coll to a seq)
11:00	TimMc	EvanR: When you see something like ^{:foo :bar}, that's attaching metadata to the next form for the benefit of the compiler.
11:00	edw	Speaking of crossclj, it's sketchy how it makes it so difficult to click out to wherever code originates from. It's like it doesn't want you to leave the site.
11:00	edw	A more prominent link would be an important act of good faith.
11:01	TimMc	You think it's intentional?
11:01	puredanger	I don't think it's sketchy. just a lot of stuff on those pages :)
11:01	bbloom	,123
11:01	clojurebot	123
11:01	justin_smith	edw: no matter what you are trying to do, crossclj is a little confusing
11:01	puredanger	exactly :)
11:01	justin_smith	edw: they just need a UX overhaul
11:02	edw	TimMc: I have no idea whether it's intentional. But pretty every other similar resource makes it relativly easy. justin_smith, you're right; I should not ascribe to malice what's more easily explained by UX breakage.
11:03	justin_smith	edw: if they were serving any ads I may feel differently - but what do they gain from your page view?
11:04	edw	justin_smith: I hear you; some people (not saying the CrossClj folk(s), see above) are just greedy for people's attention.
11:05	edw	The (old) Google ethos--get em in and out as quickly as possible--is not shored by most people.
11:05	edw	s/shored/shared/
11:06	puredanger	so, vec could return essentially the same vector sans meta and it would at least be constant time
11:06	justin_smith	edw: also, gmail is like the opposite of that
11:07	bbloom	puredanger: that would also produce a new identity
11:07	puredanger	yes
11:07	justin_smith	puredanger: that likely solves everything except folks who were exploiting array aliasing - and THEY deserve breakage I think
11:07	puredanger	justin_smith: I don't care about that
11:08	justin_smith	good
11:08	puredanger	I would happily break that :)
11:08	puredanger	new patches hitting master right now, btw
11:08	puredanger	including CLJ-1529 which has the Class.forName() improvement in it
11:08	stuartsierra	Brace yourselves, people.
11:09	puredanger	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/commits/master
11:12	clj-learner	hi, i'm learning neo4j with neocons, how do i vizualize a path in my application?
11:15	TimMc	puredanger: You think vec should strip metadata?
11:15	puredanger	it does now and someone might rely on that
11:16	TimMc	You think that's a more likely case than relying on identity changing?
11:16	puredanger	yes
11:16	bbloom	TimMc: definitely
11:16	puredanger	but it would also address that case
11:16	owengalenjones	in cljs, if Im using an external library do I need to both declare it in :cljsbuild :compiler :externs AND include it in a <script src = > tag?
11:17	TimMc	huh
11:17	dc_	in multimethod dispatch based on class, how do i specify that
11:17	edw	justin_smith: The Marissa-Mayer, Google-as-search-engine part of the company's history was dominated by the sort of thinking I described. It's well suited to things like the Grimoire, CrossClj, MELPA.
11:17	justin_smith	dc_: specify class as the dispatch function
11:18	dc_	i want a different method dispatched for a collection of chars vs a collection of integers
11:18	justin_smith	dc_: or use a protocol - they do that, and have better performance
11:18	dc_	justin_smith: sry hit send early
11:18	dc_	k, i'm aware of protocols and their power, but haven't used them yet, except in clojure koans
11:19	stuartsierra	dc_: That's not a class, you would need a dispatch function like (fn [coll] (type (first coll)))
11:19	justin_smith	,(map (comp class first) [[] [1] "a"]) ; dc_
11:19	clojurebot	(nil java.lang.Long java.lang.Character)
11:19	Bronsa	wow, t.a.jvm loads noticeably faster with clj master than with clj 1.7.0-alpha3
11:21	justin_smith	dc_: yeah, for dispatch based on item type a protocol wouldn't help really, but you could use a dispatch function that checks the type of the first item
11:22	puredanger	Bronsa: yes, expect more of that :) doesn't help every project, but it does help in many cases, macro-heavy projects in particular.
11:31	EvanR	can i dynamiclly instantiate a java class that i have in a variable
11:31	EvanR	can i even have java classes in a variable
11:31	EvanR	,(let [x java.lang.Long] x)
11:31	clojurebot	java.lang.Long
11:32	EvanR	,(let [x java.lang.Long] (new x))
11:32	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Unable to resolve classname: x, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
11:32	Bronsa	EvanR: no, you need reflection to do that
11:33	Bronsa	EvanR: core.incubator has a function for that
11:33	Bronsa	new-from-string or something similar
11:33	EvanR	hmm
11:33	hyPiRion	you can wrap them in functions as well
11:33	Bronsa	https://github.com/clojure/core.incubator/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/incubator.clj#L76
11:33	Bronsa	new by name
11:33	EvanR	ok
11:43	donbonifacio	I have autotest running, after some full test runs (about 30), I start to get out of memory exception. Isn't it weirf?
11:43	donbonifacio	- /s/weirf/weird
11:43	sdegutis	Seems normal to me.
11:44	donbonifacio	what about the GC? isn't it working? should I expect this kind of behaviour in prd?
11:44	sdegutis	Clojure is still young, and most libraries are ad-hoc and written just to get the job done for the author.
11:44	sdegutis	So expect to see lots of room for improvement all around.
11:45	justin_smith	donbonifacio: running out of heap, or permgen?
11:46	justin_smith	if heap, something in your test is holding onto data it does not need, if permgen, use a newer jvm that doesn't segregate permgen, or turn on permgen gc (it is often off by default)
11:46	donbonifacio	java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: unable to create new native thread
11:46	Bronsa	sdegutis: that's not true at all
11:46	technomancy	s/Clojure/the field of computing/
11:46	TimMc	*tools
11:46	justin_smith	donbonifacio: are you creating threads in your tests?
11:46	sdegutis	Bronsa: Well maybe you and I are using different libraries.
11:47	sdegutis	But the ones I'm using seem to break all the time.
11:47	donbonifacio	justin_smith: I'm testing pedestal, and making several requests to test the public rest api
11:47	justin_smith	donbonifacio: in the test teardown, are you properly shutting down the pedastal instance?
11:47	donbonifacio	noooo
11:48	donbonifacio	I'm not doing anything like that
11:48	donbonifacio	didn't know I had to, I confess
11:48	justin_smith	donbonifacio: so, to be clear: your test starts up pedastal, runs a few requests against it, and leaves it running?
11:49	ohpauleez	Or are you using Pedestal's testing `response-for`?
11:49	donbonifacio	yes, I have autotest running, and it reloads every thime. I don't know if it reloads pedestal
11:49	Bronsa	sdegutis: I don't see how you can go from "the libraries I use have bugs" to "most clojure libraries are ad-hoc and wrotten just to ghet the job done for the author"
11:49	sdegutis	Bronsa: Well sure, if that was all there was to it.
11:49	stuartsierra	Bronsa: I'll go there.
11:50	donbonifacio	ohpauleez: response-for
11:50	justin_smith	donbonifacio: does the test code start up pedastal, or does it assume pedastal is already up and running?
11:50	sdegutis	Bronsa: But experience fills in the missing context.
11:50	ohpauleez	donbonifacio: Ahh, so there's no running Pedestal. Are you doing a POST in any of the endpoints?
11:50	donbonifacio	I don't start pedestal, I use response-for
11:50	donbonifacio	some POSTs and PUTs
11:50	donbonifacio	a lot actually
11:50	justin_smith	oh, OK, I misunderstood that part
11:51	ohpauleez	donbonifacio: Do you store or hold onto the results to compare them across multiple tests?
11:51	justin_smith	donbonifacio: I would try profiling, to see what is being leaked each time the tests run. the jdk comes with jvisualvm which should suffice for this
11:51	ohpauleez	I've personally never heard of this happening, just seems like you're creating some data somewhere and never letting it go (you're always keeping a reference to it)
11:52	donbonifacio	ohpauleez: nop, each test is independent. But sometimes tests perform several requests
11:52	ohpauleez	it could also be the autotest runner
11:52	justin_smith	donbonifacio: ohpauleez: either way a profiler should likely catch it
11:52	ohpauleez	donbonifacio: Yeah, the multiple requests thing should be ok. I do that across a lot of Pedestal projects (and within pedestal itself)
11:53	ohpauleez	donbonifacio: Yeah, if you just use jvisualvm, or whatever you have on hand, you'll see what's holding on to data
11:53	donbonifacio	ok, i'll try to use it, and if I find something and get back to you ohpauleez
11:53	ohpauleez	Also, feel free to bounce into #pedestal if you have any specific questions. Always more than happy to help!
11:53	ohpauleez	Thanks! I appreciate it
11:54	justin_smith	donbonifacio: one thing to look for is in the threads panel, if it is creating new threads each time the tests run that maybe don't get disposed of
11:55	donbonifacio	kay thanks, never used it before, will play with it
11:55	donbonifacio	btw, anyone using VIM? still can't find a nice workflow
11:56	engblom	donbonifacio: I am using vim, but I have a bit of the same problem.
11:56	ohpauleez	donbonifacio: I'm also using vim
11:56	ohpauleez	I love my workflow
11:56	ohpauleez	:)
11:56	donbonifacio	how's your workflow?
11:57	engblom	ohpauleez: Would you mind making a tar.gz of your setup? Or putting it on github?
11:59	ohpauleez	I use Pathogen. And then these: Paredit, fireplace, Ack, gundo, classpath, clojure-highlight, clojure-static, dispatch, leiningen, projectionist, surround
11:59	ohpauleez	In my tmux, I split horizontally, and my lower pane is tiny. It runs a repl
12:00	ohpauleez	From there I mostly only `cpp` and `cpr`
12:00	donbonifacio	how do you reload the code on the repl?
12:00	ohpauleez	I always have a `(comment )` block in the file I work in, to try things out
12:01	ohpauleez	cpr
12:01	donbonifacio	reloads all or just the current file?
12:01	ohpauleez	requires-reloads current file (to my knowledge) and runs any tests present.
12:02	donbonifacio	one thing I like on my ruby workflow, is that I can run a test, and then go to other files make changes and run that test again.
12:02	ohpauleez	Why do you need to reload all? You just `cpr` when you make a change
12:02	donbonifacio	hum
12:02	donbonifacio	yes, you're right ohpauleez
12:07	andyf_	Bronsa: So, I?m finally changing Eastwood?s suspicious-expression linter to use asts rather than source forms, so it is no longer giving incorrect warnings for things like (-> 1 (= 1))
12:07	andyf_	Except for keyword typos, I think it is the last one that doesn?t use asts
12:09	andyf_	I?m now hitting what should have been predictable: nested macro calls inside things like defrecord expansions that contain things that issue warnings, and/or with > 1 arg contain in their expansion a 1-arg and/or that warns if I don?t prevent it somehow, same for cond, etc.
12:10	andyf_	My current plan is to add in checks for these cases by looking in the ancestor nodes of the ast for context that says "oh, that one is normal and shouldn't warn because it was expanded from foo". If you happen to think of a cleaner way, I'd be interested to know.
12:10	andyf_	but I'm content going down this path if we don't think of anything better
12:14	justin_smith	andyf_: it seems like there would be a lot of constructs that would be a likely error at the top level of code, but be present expansion of a well-made macro
12:16	andyf_	Sure, but I can't think of a precise definition of "the top level of code" that doesn't eliminate checking inside macros you write yourself.
12:16	mdrogalis	tbaldrid_: re mailing-list: I'm not saying I agree/disagree with you about feature expressions being in core, but I find it funny that we sometimes argue that larger things should be in core 'because it would be convenient', and we use the exact opposite argument about adding very small things to clojure.core.
12:16	tbaldrid_	how is this a large change/
12:16	tbaldrid_	?
12:16	justin_smith	andyf_: yeah, that's tricky
12:17	mdrogalis	tbaldridge: Feature expressions?
12:17	andyf_	justin_smith: Hmm. Perhaps "if the last macro expanded to get here was in clojure.core, then don't warn for it"
12:17	tbaldridge	if file.endswith(".clj") or file.endswith(".cljp") { load(file)}
12:17	mdrogalis	tbaldridge: That's really all there is to it?
12:17	tbaldridge	The approach I advocated isn't really feature expressions at all, it's just a new "portable" file extension.
12:18	mdrogalis	Yeah, I got'cha. I guess I'm mis-remembering some things from the last time I read the feature-expressions design doc.
12:18	tbaldridge	you put cross-platform code in the new file type, everything platform specific goes in .clj, cljc, or .cljs
12:18	tbaldridge	yeah, it's changed alot recently
12:18	tbaldridge	And some people like cfleming chimed in saying that anything that modifies the guts of the reader is going to be super hard for tools to figure out without evaling the namespace or something.
12:19	mdrogalis	tbaldridge: Ah, ignore my comment then.
12:19	tbaldridge	Now I have no say in the final approach Clojure takes here, it's just worth pointing out that not every variant of "feature expressions" is complex
12:20	mdrogalis	That's a good point.
12:20	Bronsa	wow. the reduce impl is even more confusing than I though. there are now 3 interfaces + 2 protocols implementing it
12:21	Bronsa	and some implementations are unreachable, e.g. it looks like reduce will never use the ArraySeq_prim IReduce impl
12:22	Bronsa	puredanger: ^ that's maybe something that should be addressed before 1.7, it seems that some IReduce/IChunk reduce impls still don't handle reduced
12:22	puredanger	which?
12:23	puredanger	tbaldridge was supposed to find and fix all of those, so I'll blame him :)
12:23	Bronsa	puredanger: ArrayChunk/ArraySeq_[prim]/gvec
12:24	tbaldridge	Yeah, except, adding "reduced?" support to ArrayChunk breaks a bunch of thigns
12:25	Bronsa	also reduce on primitive arrays seems slower than it could be
12:25	tbaldridge	Bronsa: well it does do boxing, or are you thinking of something else?
12:25	puredanger	oh right, we talked about that didn't we
12:25	Bronsa	it gets routed from collreduce to internalreduce's Obejct impl rather than to the IReduce impl for their ArraySeq_*
12:26	puredanger	reduce will have a special case to prefer IReduce over CollReduce
12:26	Bronsa	puredanger: the thing is that (long-array [1 2 3]) is not IReduce, (seq (long-array [1 2 3])) is
12:26	puredanger	that's in CLJ-1572 which almost made it in today
12:27	Bronsa	ah wait, I see I'm wrong
12:27	Bronsa	or not. uhm.
12:28	Bronsa	yup, reduce doesn't seem to use the arrayseq path for arrays
12:30	puredanger	hmm, yeah CollReduce could potentially be extended to arrays
12:30	Bronsa	ah! there's an impl for arrayseq_* of internalreduce that's not broken
12:31	puredanger	if there's a gap here, please file a ticket
12:31	Bronsa	so arrayseq_* IReduce impl is broken, but internalreduce's impl is not broken
12:31	Bronsa	puredanger: I'll try to figure out what is a bug and what is just dead code and open a ticket
12:32	Bronsa	,(.reduce (seq (long-array [1 2 3 4 5])) (fn [_ a] (println a) (reduced 6)))
12:32	clojurebot	2\n3\n4\n5\n#<Reduced@d85409: 6>
12:32	puredanger	certainly, ArraySeq* should check reduced
12:32	Bronsa	like, this is obviously wrong but this path will never be used by reduce
12:33	Bronsa	,(reduce (fn [_ a] (println a) (reduced 9)) (seq (long-array [1 2 3 4 5])))
12:33	clojurebot	2\n9
12:33	puredanger	those sound like 2 separate jiras to me
12:35	Bronsa	puredanger: do you have any idea why IChunk defines a reduce method but doesn't extend IReduce?
12:35	bodie_	has anyone tried anything around pair programming in lighttable besides the firepad demo?
12:35	bodie_	I'm thinking something like a floobits plugin or something over xmpp
12:37	puredanger	Bronsa: timbaldridge just looked into some of that stuff recently, but don't know. IChunk.reduce() has slightly different semantics than IReduce.reduce() iirc.
12:37	puredanger	in particular, around reduced
12:38	Bronsa	puredanger: ok I'll dig into that code and try to figure it out.
12:38	puredanger	he was (I think) trying to reconcile them in the patch for http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1515
12:39	Bronsa	ah, there's also IKVreduce lol. 3interfaces+3protocols then
12:39	Bronsa	I feel like this could be cleaned out quite a bit
12:40	puredanger	Bronsa: if designed fresh, surely
12:41	puredanger	but harder if considering how not to break existing users of CollReduce or IReduce
12:42	Bronsa	puredanger: meh, IReduce just got a breaking change
12:42	puredanger	?
12:42	Bronsa	IReduce -> IReduce,IReduceInit
12:43	Bronsa	nevermind, I missed that IReduce extends IReduceInit
12:44	andyf_	you are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike. :)
12:44	puredanger	I was just eaten by reduced
12:45	Bronsa	reduced added a ton of complexity in the impl
12:46	Bronsa	but I have to say, it's really handy
12:49	puredanger	Bronsa: I'm stepping away to work on some conj stuff but would really like those tickets. if you don't have time, drop me an email and I'll take care of it.
12:50	Bronsa	puredanger: I'll look into the code a bit more to understand what's a bug and what's just my misunderstanding but will definitely open those tickets later
12:51	Bronsa	as it stands now I'm pretty sure c.c/reduce is fine, OTOH using IReduce's reduce directly can be broken
13:01	brucehauman	hey all, Is anyone looking for a Conj ticket?
13:09	bbloom	if i suspect a `lein repl` instance, and come back, it says "Welcome back!"
13:09	bbloom	but it doesn't seem toa ctually work
13:11	justin_smith	bbloom: also, odd behavior if you try to tell it to keep running in the background
13:12	bbloom	s/suspect/suspend
13:13	stuartsierra	bbloom: I always suspect lein.
13:13	bbloom	stuartsierra: my subconscious agrees
13:14	justin_smith	bbloom: you could compare the behavior of "rlwrap java -cp $(lein cp) clojure.main"
13:16	cfleming	tbaldridge: I think your proposed solution probably leads to more code duplication, but still gets a big (inc) from me.
13:22	kanobe	So I have a Go project that uses other Go projects (i.e. has their repos cloned)
13:22	kanobe	oops wrong chan :P
13:22	kanobe	Sorry
13:22	technomancy	~guards
13:22	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
13:22	technomancy	=)
13:22	hfaafb	D:
13:23	martinklepsch	In James Reeves' `template` what are endpoints useful for? https://github.com/weavejester/duct
13:23	martinklepsch	Is that for when parts of the application use different components/systems?
13:27	justin_smith	martinklepsch: I think that's the REST endpoint concept - you can have multiple endpoints that act as entities, each one accepts some subset of request methods (get/post/put/delete etc.)
13:28	stuartsierra	Isn't there a way to do (map first (partition 2 …)) with a single function?
13:29	TimMc	stuartsierra: take-nth I think
13:29	TimMc	,(take-nth 2 (range 20))
13:29	clojurebot	(0 2 4 6 8 ...)
13:30	stuartsierra	TimMc: That's it, thanks
13:31	TimMc	$findfn 2 [0 1 2 3 4] [0 2 4]
13:31	lazybot	[clojure.core/take-nth]
13:31	TimMc	\o/
13:31	TimMc	You're a bot!
13:41	EvanR	can extend (the protocol thing) be used to implement java interfaces?
13:41	EvanR	like ILookup
13:42	stuartsierra	EvanR: no
13:42	EvanR	alrighty then
13:44	_2_perez	hi(L)
13:45	Bronsa	tbaldridge: ok so ArrayChunk's reduce impl is right as it is now
13:46	csd_	What are some good books on unit testing, TDD, and debugging? They don't have to necessarily be Clojure specific
13:47	Bronsa	tbaldridge: basically reduce on a chunked-seq reduces over each chunk via ArrayChunk/reduce, that needs to return a reduced so that the chunked-seq reduce can know it has to unwrap it & return rather then reduce the other chunks
13:47	tbaldridge	which breaks the .reduce contract
13:47	Bronsa	tbaldridge: so changing that in your patch for range is wrong
13:47	Bronsa	tbaldridge: not really, that/s IChunk/reduce not IReduce/reduce
13:47	Bronsa	that's*
13:48	tbaldridge	oh, they're different, didn't know that
13:48	Bronsa	I guess that's why IChunk defines a reduce that's not IReduce's one
13:48	Bronsa	tbaldridge: it's similar to how kvreduce is implemented for maps -- kvreduce on PHM unwraps, kvreduce on the internal nodes doesn't
13:49	Bronsa	tbaldridge: yeah all that impl is kinda confusing bcause same signature but different contracts
13:51	eric_normand	I'm having trouble with tagged literals
13:51	eric_normand	This is the error message: RuntimeException No reader function for tag subspace/core-async-channe
13:51	eric_normand	(sorry, has \l at the end)
13:52	eric_normand	and this is my data-readers: {subspace/core-async-channel #'portal.subspace/read-channel}
13:52	eric_normand	portal.subspace/read-channel exists
13:52	eric_normand	any clues?
13:52	stuartsierra	eric_normand: Have you loaded 'portal.subspace'?
13:52	eric_normand	yes
13:53	stuartsierra	Then I got nothing.
13:53	stuartsierra	Except that data readers are rarely necessary.
13:53	eric_normand	hmm
13:53	eric_normand	I might try doing without
13:53	eric_normand	thanks
13:55	sdegutis	,zero?
13:55	clojurebot	#<core$zero_QMARK_ clojure.core$zero_QMARK_@113722b>
13:55	sdegutis	,one?
13:55	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: one? in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
13:55	sdegutis	Why isn't there a (one?) function?
13:57	sdegutis	,(let [[foo1 & fooN] [1 2 3]] (if (empty? fooN) foo1 (first fooN)))
13:57	clojurebot	2
13:57	sdegutis	I wanted to test whether a collection had 1 or more elements. Ultimately I ended up with something like that.
13:58	dmitrygusev	why returning 2nd element then?
13:59	eric_normand	(seq coll) tests if there are one or more elements in coll
13:59	eric_normand	,(seq [])
13:59	clojurebot	nil
13:59	eric_normand	,(seq [1 2 3])
13:59	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
14:00	technomancy	sdegutis: sounds like you need a pattern match
14:01	dmitrygusev	btw, quoting https://twitter.com/hlship/status/530395233410764800 : I'm experimenting with a convention that varargs arguments are prefixed with '&' (i.e. (defn foo [x & &xs]) … helps with the calling side
14:01	eric_normand	sdegutis: what technomancy said
14:01	sdegutis	See, I'm trying to return either the only one, or one that matches a pattern.
14:01	sdegutis	technomancy: I don't know what that means in Clojure.
14:02	eric_normand	sdegutis: I see.
14:02	eric_normand	what kind of pattern?
14:03	sdegutis	(str/contains ":" (:title %))
14:03	eric_normand	nice
14:03	eric_normand	what about:
14:03	sdegutis	I could just look for the pattern first, and (or) it with (first).
14:04	sdegutis	But that's less, umm, accurate.
14:04	sdegutis	(or (filter pattern thingies) (first thingies))
14:04	eric_normand	,(let [coll [1 2 3] f (fn [pred coll] (or (first (filter pred coll)) (first coll)))] (f coll))
14:04	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: sandbox/eval142/f--143>
14:04	sdegutis	eric_normand: mainly because that fails
14:04	eric_normand	,(let [coll [1 2 3] f (fn [pred coll] (or (first (filter pred coll)) (first coll)))] (f even? coll))
14:04	clojurebot	2
14:04	sdegutis	Oh.
14:08	sdegutis	eric_normand: So yeah, we had the same idea. Seems more idiomatic Clojure, but seems much less semantically correct.
14:09	sdegutis	I admit that I sound like a heretic, but I've fallen out of love with Clojure, and I'm more annoyed with it these days than anything else.
14:11	nkoza	sdegutis: what are you using instead of clojure?
14:11	sdegutis	Nothing.
14:11	sdegutis	I just use Clojure.
14:12	xeqi	i thought pixie was the new hotness
14:13	godd2	I just started learning Clojure, so I haven't had the opportunity to be annoyed with it yet
14:13	sdegutis	I've had my eye on Swift, but it's Apple only so pretty much useless for my job (web app).
14:13	technomancy	writing code without pattern matching is super annoying to me too, but at least for application-level stuff you can bring in core.match, right?
14:13	technomancy	I have a hard time understanding why you wouldn't, anyway
14:13	sdegutis	I've also had my eye on Rust, but I'm waiting until it's done changing before I seriously look at it.
14:13	sdegutis	technomancy: I don't know what that's for.
14:14	sdegutis	technomancy: does Clojure have pattern matching?
14:14	technomancy	sdegutis: there is a clojure lib that implements it as a macro, yeah
14:14	eric_normand	sdegutis: it's really nice
14:14	sdegutis	technomancy: core.match?
14:14	sdegutis	eric_normand: it looks nice
14:14	technomancy	yup
14:14	sdegutis	eric_normand: did you write it?
14:14	eric_normand	no
14:14	eric_normand	david nolen
14:14	sdegutis	Oh.
14:15	sdegutis	I guess that makes sense.
14:15	eric_normand	sdegutis: but I've used it
14:15	sdegutis	It looks just like a fancy (cond), is that all it does?
14:16	eric_normand	cond with unification
14:16	technomancy	that's like saying vars are just fancy variables
14:16	eric_normand	binds locals, pattern matches, and optimizes the matching
14:16	sdegutis	eric_normand: sold.
14:17	technomancy	it's like ... when you try to destructure against something that's not a collection, you get an error or nils or whatever, but pattern matching lets you offer a bunch of patterns and pick the branch that matches
14:19	sdegutis	Oh so it's also an enhanced destructuring? Nice.
14:20	sdegutis	What's a decent testing framework?
14:20	technomancy	lol
14:20	Bronsa	sdegutis: didn't you set yourself up to writing a better one for clojure last year? or am I confusing you with someone else?
14:21	sdegutis	Bronsa: That was me, I've since given up on trying to contribute to things.
14:21	sdegutis	Bronsa: So I'm just looking for a decent, stable one. Has the landscape changed since last year?
14:22	Bronsa	I've always only used clojure.test and have been happy with it.
14:23	sdegutis	I imagine clojure.test hasn't changed since last year.
14:23	Bronsa	right
14:23	sdegutis	Never mind. Perhaps I'll just fix this bug in the one I'm using.
14:23	sdegutis	(If only I knew how.)
14:32	arrdem	is there a core.logic idiom like run-1?
14:33	arrdem	run-db has an [n]. okay.
14:51	rads	is there a difference between a reference and an identity when we're talking about state management?
14:51	rads	I understand that both represent a sequence of values changing over time
14:51	gfredericks	I think I use those words interchangeable in that context
14:51	gfredericks	-bly*
14:51	TimMc	wordsbly
14:52	gfredericks	Ibly thinkbly Ibly usebly thosebly wordsbly interchangeablebly inbly thatbly contextbly
14:52	gfredericks	^FTFM
14:52	rads	I feel like identity is a more abstract concept, and a reference type is an implementation of an identity in a program
14:53	rads	does that make sense?
14:53	gfredericks	that sounds fair
14:53	rads	that helps with my understanding a bit
14:53	rads	thanks
15:03	stuartsierra	rads: Sometimes we use "identity" to mean object identity, as in a Java Object.
15:05	justin_smith	amalloy_: I figured the eval privmsg thing out: the clojure plugin duplicates all the message dispatch logic that was in registry/try-handle, and I had only updated the latter. So I am going to abstract it out so it can continue to be correct in both places.
15:14	xyproto	Could someone please test "quine-relay-git" on Arch Linux (from AUR) and see if clojure errs out for you as well?
15:14	xyproto	Unsure if it is a problem with quine-relay or clojure.
15:15	justin_smith	I don't use arch, but may be able to help if nobody more qualified is around: what's the error message?
15:16	justin_smith	xyproto: if the error is the fact that there is no clojure package, you likely want leiningen in its stead (which is a builder / packager / runner tool for clojure, clojure is just a jar file)
15:18	kenrestivo	"ibly" sounds like something i should register and domain-squat until some startup wants to use it as their company nam
15:19	justin_smith	kenrestivo: butter jump!
15:19	justin_smith	*better, lol
15:19	kenrestivo	butterjump.com is taken
15:20	justin_smith	http://ibly.com/ also
15:20	kenrestivo	sorry, ibly is taken, butterjump.com is not
15:20	justin_smith	butterjump.com is already halfway to being viral just by the name - next you need some unwarranted enthusiasm and absurd juxtapositions of in-jokes
15:21	justin_smith	maybe some loud noises
15:21	justin_smith	and BANG you have a hit
15:21	kenrestivo	~butterjump is a hit
15:21	clojurebot	Ok.
15:21	kenrestivo	i wonder if there's a browsable database somewhere of all the clojurebot factoids. must be some high entertainment in there
15:24	sdegutis	~guards
15:24	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
15:24	puredanger	(inc guards)
15:24	lazybot	⇒ 1
15:24	justin_smith	~gourds
15:24	clojurebot	SQUEEZE HIM!
15:35	gfredericks	kenrestivo: hiredman gave out a db dump once
15:35	gfredericks	I think I had it at one point but probably misplaced it
16:33	LIHOY	#bitcoin: Beware of scams! Scammers are sending users private messages with bitcoin-stealing malware and offers to trade. We are unable to stop them, so you must protect yourself. NEVER download or run programs from strangers! When in doubt, ask the ops.
16:33	LIHOY	îé
16:33	LIHOY	I'm from Russia . I thought that Russian server) fuck karoch )
16:34	arrdem	technomancy: fingerguns required
16:34	bbloom	technomancy: ^^
16:35	arrdem	(inc technomancy)
16:35	lazybot	⇒ 157
16:35	technomancy	pew pew pew
16:43	TimMc	What an odd little spammer.
16:46	hfaafb	good advice tho
16:46	akkad	teknemancy?
16:46	technomancy	hfaafb: except for the last two words, yeah
16:57	augustl	anyone got some tips for using clojure data structures from another JVM language? I'm gonna use Groovy, with Gradle as the build system.
16:57	augustl	just depend on clojure, and call something.Something.init()?
17:01	gfredericks	augustl: you might need to require RT?
17:02	gfredericks	probably not though
17:02	gfredericks	so I don't think you have to explicitly init anything
17:02	arrdem	augustl: as of 1.6 or 1.5 you no longer need to explicitly init core
17:03	augustl	afaik there's something protocol related in maps that fails without RT
17:03	augustl	I'll just try 1.6 and see what happens :)
17:06	scape_	with string replace, how would I supply a var instead of a raw regex string? ie: #"abc" with (str "ab" "c")
17:07	scape_	oh wait
17:07	scape_	I can
17:07	scape_	hah
17:07	scape_	:-\
17:07	scape_	wait no i can't
17:07	arrdem	vars are an implementation detail and should always be transparent
17:08	scape_	https://clojuredocs.org/clojure.string/replace
17:08	arrdem	which example, scape_?
17:09	dbasch	scape_: use re-pattern
17:09	scape_	(clojure.string/replace "The color is red" #"red" "blue") where #"red" is instead (str "red") or something evaluated
17:09	scape_	oh
17:09	scape_	I'll see
17:09	dbasch	&(clojure.string/replace "abcabc" (re-pattern (str "ab" "c")) "def")
17:09	lazybot	⇒ "defdef"
17:10	bbloom	(doc clojure.string/replace)
17:10	clojurebot	"([s match replacement]); Replaces all instance of match with replacement in s. match/replacement can be: string / string char / char pattern / (string or function of match). See also replace-first. The replacement is literal (i.e. none of its characters are treated specially) for all cases above except pattern / string. For pattern / string, $1, $2, etc. in the replacement string are substituted with the string that
17:10	scape_	thanks
17:10	scape_	repattern looks like it will work
17:10	bbloom	,(clojure.string/replace "abc" "b" "x")
17:10	clojurebot	"axc"
17:10	bbloom	scape_: seems to work for me...
17:10	bbloom	if you use re-pattern, you'll need to escape any metacharacters
17:10	bbloom	,(clojure.string/replace "abc" (str "b" "c") "x")
17:10	clojurebot	"ax"
17:11	dbasch	of course a string works too for that case
17:11	scape_	yea it looks like it is
17:11	scape_	hmm
17:11	scape_	I get clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Invalid match arg: ,
17:12	scape_	gotta look closer I think, thanks
17:14	bbloom	scape_: i bet you're not passing it what you think you're passing it
17:14	scape_	yea I was willy nilly searching a map without checking if key existed
17:15	scape_	thx
17:18	hfaafb	how come rich hickey never says hi to anyone here
17:18	hfaafb	i just wanna autocomplete rhickey once in my life
17:18	hfaafb	or rich
17:18	hfaafb	or whatever
17:21	bbloom	hfaafb: i think you answered your own question... people want to talk to him just to talk to him, and he wants to accomplish things :-P
17:28	rads	"rads: Sometimes we use "identity" to mean object identity, as in a Java Object."
17:28	rads	does that mean the identity of a java object is actually a value?
17:29	rads	oh darn, stuartsierra is no longer here
17:30	gfredericks	we should have a ceremonial annual event where rich comes into #clojure and everybody gets to A) suggest using github PRs instead of jira and B) request exactly one function to add to clojure.core
17:30	puredanger	yeah, that would go over great :)
17:31	dbasch	rads: no, in java different objects can have the same value
17:32	dbasch	i.e. two objects can be equal but not identical
17:32	seancorfield	gfredericks: would that be a bit like the annual event on the mailing list where the CA process is discussed? :)
17:32	gfredericks	seancorfield: oh right that should be a part of it somehow
17:33	dbasch	well, there’s always the old cardboard cutouts of rich hickey from the last conj, maybe someone can send one to hfaafb
17:35	rads	dbasch: do you know how the jvm determines if two objects are identical? does it simply compare the pointers to where the state is stored in memory?
17:35	gfredericks	maybe also everything gets to paste one stack trace they've encountered and gesture wildy while saying "just look at this thing!"
17:35	gfredericks	rads: depends on what you ask it to do
17:35	gfredericks	rads: the jvm can do pointer equality, or it can do custom equality based on Object#equals
17:36	gfredericks	clojure.core/= does something more complicated
17:36	dbasch	rads: == means are they the same reference
17:36	gfredericks	where == is java syntax
17:36	rads	I'm trying to get a fundamental understanding of these three terms: reference, value, and identity
17:36	dbasch	.equals means “do they have the same value” (for whatever definition of equals the class has)
17:37	rads	the "reference" is a location in virtual memory, correct?
17:38	rads	it's just a pointer?
17:40	arohner	rads: 'value' typically means an immutable object: "foo", 42, {:a :b}
17:40	arohner	rads: 'reference' typically means a box that can point to a value. refs, atoms and vars are all reference types
17:41	arohner	rads: identity typically means a thing that is unique, that can be found by its unique attribute. it can be an immutable value that has e.g. an :id column, or a ref where there's only one of them in the system, etc
17:42	amalloy	hmmmm. can anyone think of a case where ~''x would produce something different from '~'x? i've seen the latter numerous times, and it just occurred to me that it should be identical to the former but i've never actually seen it
17:42	rads	arohner: thanks for that succinct explanation
17:43	rads	here's something I've been wondering: is it fair to say that physical memory slots and CPU registers are the lowest level "references" available to programmers?
17:43	rads	at the operating system level at least
17:43	arohner	probably
17:44	EvanR	registers in memory on devices
17:44	gfredericks	rads: people are being wishy-washy about this because these words don't have official definitions. you just gotta figure out what are useful meanings for your context and be explicit about that when you need to
17:46	rads	so technically there's no limit to how far you can "move the reference up" in a functional program, since you could represent your program as a function on the current state of the CPU registers and physical memory
17:46	rads	does that make sense?
17:46	EvanR	rads: its useful to consider yourself working on a virtual machine with abstract notions of whatever the programming language is manipulating
17:46	dbasch	rads: memory and cpu registers are not “references”, any more than a mailbox or the trunk of your car is a reference
17:46	dbasch	they are storage units
17:46	dbasch	you can refer to them, of course
17:46	EvanR	thinking that you are direct accessing anything at any level is either misguided or inappropriate for the current abstraction
17:47	EvanR	virtual memory, microcode, its all a lie
17:48	EvanR	the internet protocol is a rich source of abstractions over things no one has ever heard of, or cares about for the purposes of application programming
17:49	rads	okay, so you make references that point to locations in storage units
17:49	EvanR	for example
17:49	rads	the storage unit is abstract
17:49	rads	could be a CPU register, could be redis
17:49	rads	the reference is a symbol within the program that provides access to that location within the storage unit?
17:50	rads	is `int c` a reference in the C programming language since it changes mutable state?
17:50	justin_smith	rads: no, it is a storage location
17:51	justin_smith	rads: vars or local bindings provide access via symbols to those locations
17:51	justin_smith	that is no it is not a symbol
17:51	EvanR	int c is a declaration for storage
17:52	dbasch	in C, int c means “make a space for an int in the stack, and when you see c in this scope I’m talking about that space”
17:52	rads	I'm using C as an example for now because it's simpler than clojure's model
17:52	EvanR	dbasch: depending on where it appears
17:52	EvanR	rads: you think?
17:52	dbasch	EvanR: yeah, I’m assuming a function
17:52	justin_smith	"int c" tells the c compiler you want to refer to some location in the stack or memory heap by the symbol c
17:53	justin_smith	"(def c)" tells clojure you want to refer to something, within this namespace, by the symbol c
17:53	rads	EvanR: not for writing programs on top of, but it's easier for me to understand if I can see the connection of the system itself
17:53	EvanR	do does (declare c)
17:53	EvanR	so*
17:53	oskarkv	amalloy apparently ``'~'x is not the same as ``~''x. I don't know how to think about these cases, ie how to predict what they will produce
17:53	justin_smith	rads: (let [c 1]) tells clojure that you want to refer to 1 locally as c
17:53	rads	I see
17:54	rads	what if you're mutating a struct? is the struct a reference?
17:54	justin_smith	rads: everything in the jvm that is not a primitive is a reference type
17:54	EvanR	rads: "the system" is another abstraction, you just more familiar with it, but its not even that simple of an abstraction
17:54	amalloy	oskarkv: well, ``~''x is identical to `''x
17:54	amalloy	because `~ is a no-op
17:55	rads	I'm trying to understand how `c = 1` in C is different than `(reset! c 1)` in clojure
17:56	rads	the end result is the same for the programmer
17:56	justin_smith	rads: so, if you are mutating a "struct" that struct will be represented in the jvm as an "Object" - an instance of some "Class", and you can refer to it the same way you would any other value - via local binding, or a namespaced global var
17:56	rads	in clojure, c is a reference type
17:56	technomancy	I had a waaaay easier time understanding C pointers after learning clojure's reference model.
17:56	justin_smith	rads: or of course a value in a slot of some other Object
17:56	technomancy	not that they're the same thing, but the fact that clojure's model was so explicit helped me keep the concepts straight in C where they can be fuzzier
17:57	dbasch	rads: for one, c = 1 is not an atomic operation
17:57	EvanR	the storage units in question have different lifetimes
17:58	rads	is reset! atomic?
17:58	EvanR	rads: its not exactly right to call anything in C a reference
17:58	rads	I thought you only get atomicity with swap!
17:58	dbasch	rads: what does reset! operate on?
17:59	rads	you would get the same semantics if you replaced c variables with atoms and only used resets instead of assignment, wouldn't you?
17:59	rads	C, the language, variables I mean
17:59	EvanR	C the language doesnt guarantee any atomic operations
18:00	rads	but I'm saying if you have a bunch of writers using reset! on an atom, those operations are also not atomic
18:00	rads	even though the reference type is called an atom
18:00	EvanR	:doc reset!
18:01	rads	"Sets the value of atom to newval without regard for the
18:01	rads	current value. Returns newval."
18:01	rads	if there is no coordination of the previous value, how can there be atomicity?
18:01	dbasch	rads: there is a subtle difference
18:02	dbasch	you could execute a clojure program in discrete steps and a c program in discrete steps too
18:02	dbasch	right after a reset!, the value would be what you put in
18:02	tuft	atomicity just means it either happens completely or not at all. if two threads try to assign the same variable in C a third may see an inconsistent state / partial update
18:02	dbasch	in c, the step after an assignment makes no guarantees if there are concurrent assignments
18:02	technomancy	dbasch: reset! is the same though
18:04	rads	so when you do `c = 1` in a C program, it is not immediately visible to other threads with access to the same memory location?
18:04	EvanR	youre not guaranteed to see the value you put it right after putting it in
18:04	dbasch	technomancy: you’re right, just looked at the code
18:04	rads	and the different with clojure is that the other threads will see the new value immediately?
18:04	rads	difference*
18:04	technomancy	atomicity only matters if the new value is based on the old
18:05	technomancy	(so, swap! but not reset!)
18:05	rads	yes, that's what I was confused about
18:05	EvanR	rads: when you were asking about atomicity issues, i was thinking you were talking about word tearing
18:05	EvanR	like your variable gets half way committed
18:06	tuft	yeah that's what i'm talking about
18:06	tuft	that to me is atomicity too
18:06	oskarkv	amalloy yeah but I have trouble understanding what happends with ``'~'x
18:06	oskarkv	happens*
18:06	rads	my main motivation for this is figuring out what a useful AtomicReference implementation might look like in JavaScript
18:06	tuft	the other thing is more about serialization
18:06	amalloy	oskarkv: nothing very good. it's hard to imagine wanting to use taht
18:07	EvanR	rads: in browser javascript you are in luck, because the threads do not interleave, everything you do is atomic in this sense
18:07	oskarkv	hehe but i'm curious. amalloy do you understand it? :P
18:07	amalloy	take a look at even like ##``'x
18:07	lazybot	⇒ (clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat (clojure.core/list (quote quote)) (clojure.core/list (quote clojure.core/x))))
18:07	tuft	rads: doesn't ClojureScript already have an atom?
18:07	amalloy	`'~'x produces the code necessary to output (quote x)
18:07	dbasch	rads: javascript is single-threaded (at least in the browser) so atomicity means nothing
18:07	rads	tuft: yeah I'm talking JS only
18:08	rads	it becomes important when you're synchronzing data with the server
18:08	EvanR	javascript over the years has silently saved countless programmers from even knowing that concurrent programming challenges exist
18:08	amalloy	``'~'x produces the code necessary to produce the code necessary to output (quote x), which is not very useful
18:08	tuft	yeah no volatiles in js land
18:08	tuft	except web workers?
18:08	dbasch	rads: no, it means nothing
18:08	EvanR	tuft: new fangled contraptions ;)
18:08	rads	what if I want to perform an operation on the client concurrently with other clients?
18:08	oskarkv	amalloy yeah ok gonna think about it some more. Just as an exercise ;)
18:09	rads	that needs to be an atomic operation
18:09	oskarkv	thanks
18:09	dbasch	rads: in that case you care about atomicity on the server side
18:09	EvanR	rads: are you sure you are using the word correctly yet?
18:10	rads	maybe this is a better phrasing: I want to make an abstraction in JavaScript that makes performing atomic operations between the client and server easier
18:10	technomancy	hooo boy
18:10	dbasch	I give up
18:10	technomancy	so yeah, a distributed system is completely different
18:11	tuft	rads: could we have a concrete example please?
18:11	technomancy	welcome to CAP theorem =)
18:11	dbasch	the point is that if you run an operation in js, nobody will come and change your state while it’s pending
18:11	rads	I can't go into a ton of detail
18:12	rads	basically I want to perform simple synchronization between the client and server in a web app where the writes are not very common, but better than just last write wins
18:12	tuft	rads: maybe you can obfuscate your $1e6 idea sufficiently? =)
18:12	dbasch	rads: if you’re competing with other clients, it’s up to the server to synchronize access to whatever
18:13	rads	I just don't want to risk violating any contracts with my employer, sorry
18:13	dbasch	e.g. you and someone else are trying to buy the last ticket to a concert
18:13	tuft	rads: what dbasch said
18:13	dbasch	either you buy it or the other person does, but there’s nothing the browser can do about it
18:14	rads	dbasch: no, but the browser can perform the operation optimistically. at that point you have two states to reconcile when you get the next response from the server
18:15	dbasch	rads: why would you want to do that?
18:15	rads	why would I want to perform operations optimistically before I get a response from the server?
18:15	dbasch	not for that example. Are you writing a text editor that claims to save but really hasn’t saved anything?
18:16	rads	it's more about not making the UI block when the user performs an action
18:17	rads	otherwise you have to wait for the server response to have a consistent state if you have no plan to reconcile any optimistic opereations
18:18	rads	technomancy: any recommendations for learning about distributed systems?
18:19	rads	dbasch, tuft: I appreciate your help so far. this is a tough problem
18:19	dbasch	rads: look into Om if you want to do this in Clojure
18:20	dbasch	or any other react-based framework
18:20	rads	that's what this is for, a react application
18:21	rads	trying to understand how the different pieces fit together and centralize the state synchronization with the server in one place
18:21	rads	I followed Om closely when it came out last year, but I'm trying to understand the fundamentals behind Om itself
18:22	rads	so that maybe I could contribute back to Om one day with a better understanding of these principles
18:41	myguidingstar	hi all, what is the best way to write a Leiningen template?
18:42	myguidingstar	is there anyway to make one from a working project?
18:43	justin_smith	myguidingstar: not that I know of. But there is "lein new template [name]"
18:43	myguidingstar	well, I know that
18:44	justin_smith	oh, you knew about the template template?
18:44	justin_smith	have you checked out the files it makes?
18:46	myguidingstar	I know how to write lein template from scratch
18:47	myguidingstar	I'm thinking of a conventional way to convert a 'working temple' into a template with {{placeholders}}
18:47	myguidingstar	s/working temple/working template/
18:48	myguidingstar	oh, I meant 'working project'
18:48	justin_smith	if that exists, I have not heard of it
18:49	technomancy	you should write one =)
18:49	myguidingstar	technomancy, yeah, I'm thinking of it
18:51	myguidingstar	should be a set of rules: hello-project (real, runnable symbols!!!) to {{placeholders}}
18:53	myguidingstar	and finally: "lein templatize input-dir output-dir"
18:54	myguidingstar	technomancy, any suggestions about such rules?
18:54	technomancy	part of the reason it doesn't exist yet is it's difficult to come up with sufficiently generalizable rules =)
19:04	andyf	technomancy: "Subprocess failed." Is printed by lein if a plugin does (System/exit 1) and that is by design, yes? Just confirming
19:08	technomancy	andyf: ideally the plugin could replace that generic message with something more descriptive, but if they don't, then yeah that's what you'd see if a project JVM exited nonzero.
19:09	andyf	Understood. I'm just documenting it for now since it wasn't already and someone thought it was a bug in Eastwood
19:14	gfredericks	andyf: is issue #21 still unworked-on, and is it work-onable?
19:16	andyf	gfredericks: I think I have both time and interest to get a start on it this weekend, but it depends how much time it takes me to finish #93 first
19:17	andyf	But if you want to go for it, I don't mind
19:17	gfredericks	okay I will give you a heads up if I do
19:19	andyf	I keep getting reminded when creating linters (1) how much easier tools.analyzer makes it, and (2) how much I don't know about corner cases that exist when I start
19:20	technomancy	andyf: I'd recommend doing eval-in-project in a try/catch and watching for :exit-code on an ExceptionInfo
19:21	technomancy	also... why ExceptionInfo and not InfoException?
19:21	gfredericks	well it's not an exception due to Info
19:22	andyf	On the exception name, Bronsa named it
19:23	technomancy	it's less verbose at least than DataConevyingException
19:23	Bronsa	andyf: I believe technomancy is talking about c.l.ExceptionInfo, not about t.a.j.ExceptionThrown
19:23	andyf	Or is there an existing InfoException you are asking why we are not using it instead?
19:23	gfredericks	clojure.lang.ClojureProblem
19:23	Bronsa	but I haven't read the scrollback so I might not have all the context
19:25	technomancy	total bikeshed, forget I said anything
19:25	andyf	Bronsa: You did not choose name of ExceptionInfo in tools.reader?
19:26	Bronsa	ah
19:26	andyf	Wait, what were we talking about again? :-)
19:26	Bronsa	andyf: not really, that's just to implement c.l.ExceptionInfo in clj 1.3 or whatever the version
19:27	Bronsa	puredanger: ah by the way, importing by default ExceptionInfo would be super for writing cross language code.
19:27	andyf	Bronsa: I currently aot that class only in Eastwood and I recall adding that because things broke without doing so
19:27	eric_normand	clojure.edn/read does not use data-readers
19:28	eric_normand	is that a bug?
19:28	Bronsa	eric_normand: no, a design choice
19:28	eric_normand	Bronsa: why?
19:28	Bronsa	eric_normand: c.edn/read has a different signature than c.c/read
19:28	Bronsa	eric_normand: it uses a map arg rather than dynamic vars
19:28	andyf	eric_normand: it lets you specify them in arg I think?
19:28	eric_normand	I see
19:29	andyf	More explicit that way
19:29	eric_normand	yes
19:29	Bronsa	andyf: dunno, I don't recall how compilation works there. but tools.reader's ExceptionInfo is only used by clj <=1.3
19:33	andyf	Bronsa: Namespace c.t.reader.impl.utils requires it unconditionally, doesn't it ?
19:34	Bronsa	andyf: ah yeah. right so it has to be AOT compiled or the type hint will fail
19:35	Bronsa	andyf: now I remember, loading the namespace conditionally would mess with maven or something like that
19:35	andyf	No big deal for me. Just making sure I wasn't missing something
19:37	andyf	Bronsa: Some years down the road I hope that (= 3 (:minor clojure-version)) requires updating :-)
19:37	Bronsa	heh
19:38	Bronsa	andyf: I'm just counting on the fact that when (if) the time comesclojure 2.x will break so much existing code that changing that will be the last of my problems
19:38	andyf	Probably so
19:38	technomancy	MAH EYEZ https://github.com/ztellman/cambrian-collections/blob/master/project.clj#L10-L15
19:39	technomancy	why, github, why?
19:39	technomancy	is this revenge for something untoward rich said about pull requests?
19:39	Bronsa	lol
19:39	Bronsa	technomancy: syntax highlighting for clojure has been broken for over 20 days :(
19:39	andyf	Github has seen the rising tide of Clojure popularity and is trying to quell it
19:40	justin_smith	technomancy: what really got me was the bright red highlighting of some square brackets in racket code
19:40	justin_smith	but yeah, that is pretty wtf too
19:40	technomancy	http://p.hagelb.org/chair.gif
19:42	andyf	But how do you feel, really?
19:42	technomancy	actually it's a shame the gif cuts off where it does
19:42	technomancy	because the next few frames reflect it perfectly
19:43	justin_smith	that movie was surprisingly good
19:43	andyf	Youtube source?
19:43	technomancy	(inc lego-movie)
19:43	lazybot	⇒ 1
19:44	technomancy	andyf: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkCeUjvgXRk
19:45	Jaood	to bad that patch didn't made it to 1.7
19:46	amalloy	justin_smith: currently in https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/flatland/useful/seq.clj, some of the commas are highlighted bright red and some are not
19:46	Bronsa	Jaood: which patch?
19:46	amalloy	i think it's the case that commas preceded by punctuation are bright red; if there's a letter before it, it's not
19:46	Jaood	Bronsa: ztellman's
19:47	justin_smith	amalloy: woah, that sucks
19:51	andyf	Time to make an overlay site for github with better highlighting choices?
19:51	technomancy	andyf: yeah, a userstyles.org thing would be great
19:51	justin_smith	maybe a petition of payed members (I pay for membership there, and I would sign)
19:52	martinklepsch	whats a good project to look at to understand the component system? I looked at duct but it seems to be different to most (https://github.com/weavejester/duct)
19:52	justin_smith	s/membership/account I guess
19:52	technomancy	maybe it's a sign that github's pseudomonopoly needs to come to an end
19:53	technomancy	I really wish I could recommend gitlab. so close, but still frustrating.
19:54	hyPiRion	Let's make something ourselves, how hard could it be
19:54	andyf	Pushes, pulls, issues, free hosting of public files and static web pages. All still good
19:57	technomancy	a fork of gitlab that actually uses the project readme as the splash page. boom.
19:58	justin_smith	maybe the new highlighting is a passive-agressive way to encourage us to do less code-browsing on site
19:58	justin_smith	(original definition of passive-agressive, not the new one)
19:59	hyPiRion	the new one?
19:59	justin_smith	hyPiRion: where people call being friendly while making a criticism, or leaving a note, or being indirect "passive agressive"
19:59	justin_smith	the old definition was pretty specific: undermining a project without overt hostility
20:00	Jaood	technomancy: but gitlab is for self-hosting so you can really compare them?
20:00	Jaood	s/can/can't/
20:00	technomancy	Jaood: gitlab is both
20:01	technomancy	but they make some decisions that only make sense in the context of private repos
20:01	technomancy	like refusing to use readmes as splash pages
20:01	technomancy	they have hosted gitlab both for OSS and private stuff
20:04	Jaood	technomancy: oh true, was not obvious from their landing page
20:06	Jaood	technomancy: you don't like bitbucket?
20:07	technomancy	Jaood: I remember being very unimpressed with the issues system
20:07	technomancy	but GH's isn't great either
20:08	technomancy	maybe it just reminded me too much of jira
20:10	michaniskin_	what's the best way to read in a clojure file that contains forms like ::foo/bar?
20:10	michaniskin_	i don't want to evaluate it, i just want to read the forms
20:11	Bronsa	michaniskin_: it's not possible without at least evaluating the namespace form
20:11	michaniskin_	wonderful
20:11	michaniskin_	thanks Bronsa
20:12	Bronsa	michaniskin_: well that's not entirely true I guess, you can read it without evaluating it, all you need is the alias setup
20:12	michaniskin_	yeah i have that already
20:12	michaniskin_	i was just checking that i wasn't insane
20:13	michaniskin_	i was hesitant to assume that reading and evaluation were complected
20:14	Bronsa	michaniskin_: also you can use tools.reader to do that without messing with the namespace system if you already know the aliases
20:14	Bronsa	michaniskin_: https://github.com/clojure/tools.reader/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/tools/reader.clj#L303-L313
20:14	michaniskin_	i don't want an AST, i want to read forms
20:14	Bronsa	michaniskin_: tools.reader is not tools.analyzer :)
20:14	michaniskin_	ah ok
20:15	michaniskin_	yes i have some filthy code that sniffs ns decls
20:15	michaniskin_	but i don't feel good about myself when i think of it
20:16	michaniskin_	it makes me sad how clojure seems to get more complicated every release
20:16	michaniskin_	instead of more elegant
20:16	Bronsa	really? why do you say that?
20:16	andyf	You are in good company, if it is anything like tools.namespace ns form detection
20:17	michaniskin_	well i make a lot of build tooling, and it just requires more and more filthy hacks every release
20:17	michaniskin_	i have a ghetto compiler basically to emulate the evaluation that's mixed up in the reader
20:18	Bronsa	michaniskin_: I'm just curious, examples of features added in recent releases that complicate it?
20:18	michaniskin_	::foo/bar is a big one
20:18	Bronsa	that's been there since 1.0
20:18	michaniskin_	also the stuff that supports that kind of thing in the destructuring forms
20:18	michaniskin_	tagged literals in source files
20:19	andyf	michaniskin_: How do those features affect a build tool?
20:19	michaniskin_	because you can't manipulate source files without evaluating them in some way
20:19	andyf	Maybe you do want tools.analyzer :-)
20:19	michaniskin_	instead of being able to read lists like normal, you need a context in which to evaluate a minilanguage
20:19	Bronsa	michaniskin_: the only valid complaint I'll give you is the one about tagged literals, but that's been there for 2 years now
20:20	michaniskin_	if you do a lot of metaprogramming stuff these affordances really weigh on you
20:21	michaniskin_	anyway i know it's a minority opinion
20:21	Bronsa	michaniskin_: don't get me wrong, I can agree with you if you said that some things in clojure could be easier, I just don't agree on you when you say that it's getting more complex with every new release
20:22	michaniskin_	i don't want it to be easier, i want it to be simpler :)
20:22	andyf	I don't know exactly the goals your tool have, but I wonder whether there is a different approach that works better with Clojure, rather than at odds with it
20:22	Bronsa	forgive my loose usage of language, that was not my point though
20:22	michaniskin_	haha i know, i'm just pulling your chain :)
20:23	michaniskin_	but seriously this is how it seems to me, things getting easier but less simple
20:23	Bronsa	andyf: I guess the biggest source of "complexity" for tool writers for clojure is that clojure's evaluation model is form-at-a-time and that the namespace system is mutable
20:24	michaniskin_	Bronsa: yes, that, too. that's exactly right
20:24	Bronsa	andyf: it's much better for cljs `ns` is a special form and there's no way to intern something at runtime
20:25	michaniskin_	we're currently experimenting with that with boot
20:25	michaniskin_	using fresh clojure runtimes for each expression and so forth
20:26	michaniskin_	maybe what i need is a language that compiles to clojure
20:33	andyf	Bronsa: I tried timing whole Eastwood crucible run with 1.7 alpha3 vs alpha4 and it went from 36.3 mins to 33.3 mins. Nice, but not huge.
20:34	andyf	I think of code speedups as opportunity to add more projects in :-)
20:41	justin_smith	amalloy: pr that fixes the privmsg triggers on lazybot submitted
20:41	justin_smith	also, it is a clean history
20:42	amalloy	chuckle
20:42	amalloy	justin_smith: you tested it?
20:42	justin_smith	yes indeed
20:42	justin_smith	but feel free to double check my work, of course
20:43	Bronsa	andyf: yeah alpha4 has only load time enhancements, alpha3 had a big impact on runtime for t.a.jvm because of better caching in multimethods
20:46	arrdem	justin_smith: r u havin a giggle there with lossy karma m8
20:46	justin_smith	heh
20:47	justin_smith	arrdem: note that that hasn't been submitted officially as a pr (yet?)
20:47	amalloy	justin_smith: i think he is now not responding to PMs which are commands or inline hook things
20:47	justin_smith	err...
20:49	amalloy	itym Raynes/lazybot#104
20:49	lazybot	correct privmsg handling -- https://github.com/Raynes/lazybot/pull/104 is closed
20:49	arrdem	huh. didn't know about that command.
20:50	amalloy	arrdem: well, of course it's not actually a command but a hook: if he sees user/repo#issuenum in any message he says that
20:50	arrdem	justin_smith: yo was this supposed to get comitted? https://github.com/noisesmith/lazybot/commit/a79782382763cef9cc00f08b8b03c621443742f0#diff-f3ec7c8cbebc04166e5e467a96fe641aR30
20:51	justin_smith	arrdem: damn, gotta fix that too, thanks
20:51	arrdem	np
20:52	justin_smith	this pr was not as ready as I thought it was...
20:53	justin_smith	amalloy: odd, I am sending anybot clojure commands and he is evaluating them
20:54	justin_smith	amalloy: he is evaluating regular commands but only when prefix is supplied...
20:55	justin_smith	and the only diff I see from upstream/master is the removal of that pprint
21:54	Bronsa	andyf: not sure if this will help you w/ eastwood, but t.a now supports early termination of walking at any point via reduced: http://sprunge.us/UNdd?clj
21:55	andyf	Nice. Can't think of where I'd use that, but will try to keep it in mind. Tend to just scan all the nodes.
21:55	Bronsa	the impl suffered a bit in readability but this is a great feature to have when needed
21:56	Bronsa	andyf: e.g. in the mexpansion-steps function I wrote a while ago for cfleming I used a dyn var to short-circuit walking after the first macroexpansion, this makes it possible to do that without it
21:57	Bronsa	then: https://gist.github.com/Bronsa/28720fbc280d661f91d7/007717a14f48488bc5e795b5ea45ea5af3322166#file-gistfile1-clj-L46-L47 vs now: https://gist.github.com/Bronsa/28720fbc280d661f91d7#file-gistfile1-clj-L44
22:00	andyf	Today I learned that using :raw-forms, your assumptions of what is there can be made wrong if someone uses their own custom macro expander, as tools.macro's with-symbol-macros does
22:01	gfredericks	dang symbol-macros
22:01	gfredericks	andyf: do you know if riddley does that too?
22:01	Bronsa	andyf: your assumption of my assumption? :P
22:02	andyf	I don't know about riddley.
22:02	Bronsa	gfredericks: IIRC riddley's macroexpander matches clojure's
22:03	andyf	My assumption. My approach to writing linters is to look at ast contents of one or a few cases, write some pattern matching conditions, and see what happens. Usually works well
22:03	Bronsa	ah, gotcha
22:03	Bronsa	andyf: have you thought about using core.match for eastwood linters btw? could save you some trouble
22:04	andyf	Fortunately this is "only" a linter, so if I don't catch everything possible, it is par for the course
22:04	ztellman	riddley matches it, but also does inline expansion
22:05	Bronsa	ztellman: I believe clojure's does too
22:05	ztellman	Bronsa: it doesn't
22:05	Bronsa	,(macroexpand-1 '(inc 1))
22:05	clojurebot	(inc 1)
22:05	lazybot	⇒ 9
22:05	andyf	Thought about it, but haven't learned core.match yet.
22:05	Bronsa	ouch.
22:05	Bronsa	ztellman: weird, I assumed it did
22:05	ztellman	so did I, until it bit me
22:05	Bronsa	I guess it does inlining later during analysis
22:06	ztellman	likewise, (clojure.walk/postwalk macroexpand ...) doesn't do what it should in quoted forms
22:06	ztellman	and a bunch of other things
22:06	ztellman	basically clojure.walk/macroexpand-all is badly named
22:07	Bronsa	macroexpan-all-and-maybe-more?
22:07	andyf	Sorry, what is it in "riddley matched it "?
22:07	ztellman	macroexapnd-some-and-maybe-more
22:07	andyf	A subset of a superset of the right thing?
22:07	Bronsa	ztellman: I know about the "maybe-more" what about the "some"? :)
22:07	ztellman	Bronsa: the inlined forms
22:07	Bronsa	ah ok
22:08	gfredericks	"A subset of a superset of X" can be basically anything I think
22:08	gfredericks	that must be the joke
22:08	ztellman	andyf: I'm not following
22:08	andyf	That's what I was going for
22:08	Bronsa	well the subset of the superset of x kinda approximates x
22:08	gfredericks	joke explanations brought to you by gfredericks
22:08	Bronsa	kinda sorta until it stops working
22:09	andyf	ztellman: Earlier you said "riddley matches it ..." and I didn't understand the meaning
22:09	ztellman	ah! I mean riddly matches the compiler's macroexpansion behavior
22:09	ztellman	+e
22:10	ztellman	the clojure.walk version is both less and more than the compiler's macroexpansion
22:11	Bronsa	riddley could be implemented in a couple of lines using t.a.jvm btw :P
22:12	ztellman	Bronsa: well, I'm actually using the LOCAL_ENV exposed by the compiler, so I'm more guaranteed to be accurate, but sure
22:12	Bronsa	ztellman: that's true, yeah
22:13	ztellman	I don't recall t.a.jvm being available at the time, though
22:13	ztellman	maybe I wasn't paying attention
22:14	Bronsa	ztellman: it was still really alpha at the time
22:15	Bronsa	it's unfortunate that the vals of &env leak compiler classes rather than an info map. luckly because of that almost nobody uses it (except probably ztellman and amalloy)
22:16	ztellman	Bronsa: the compiler was clearly never designed with extensibility in mind, I'd be overjoyed if that were changed
22:16	ztellman	but I'm only brave enough to poke at the compiler a bit
22:18	arrdem	more or less convinced that the existing compiler is ossified by simple virtue of core not being interested in changes to it forget anything else
22:20	andyf	Other fish for them to fry, most likely
22:21	andyf	C-in-C seems to be taking shape nicely, though
22:21	andyf	Thanks to someone whose nick rhymes with kadonsa
22:29	cfleming	While we're talking macroexpansion, is it true that if I want to accurately expand a subform inside some larger form, I would have to macroexpand all its ancestors from the top-level form down to the form I want, but should not have to macroexpand any of the siblings of those ancestors?
22:29	arrdem	unless your users are evil people who have non-toplevel defmacros
22:30	cfleming	Unfortunately I have to assume that all my users are potentially evil
22:30	cfleming	Or at least misguided
22:30	andyf	Other possible evilness that is rare: macros with side effects during expansion
22:31	andyf	E.g. gen-class if I recall correctly
22:31	Bronsa	midje does interning at macroexpansion for example
22:32	cfleming	I see - I actually did that myself while trying to write my macroexpand stepper, I used an atom to count when to stop.
22:32	andyf	gen-class writes to file system
22:32	cfleming	Bronsa: I'll have to go back and look at your example again. The feedback I got was that naive stepping took too long and was tedious for large forms.
22:33	cfleming	But it turns out to be quite hard to support accurate expansion of arbitrary subforms.
22:33	justin_smith	andyf: during macro expansion?
22:34	Bronsa	cfleming: if you want to try https://gist.github.com/Bronsa/28720fbc280d661f91d7 out, behare that you'll need t.a and t.a.j from master
22:35	cfleming	Thanks, I'll take a look. I'm a little worried about needing t.a. and t.a.j as a dependency since I'd have to load them into the user's REPL, but I might have to.
22:35	andyf	justin_smith: Yes.
22:35	justin_smith	wow
22:35	cfleming	I wanted to use Riddley, but that was also slightly complicated by the need to load a Java class over a REPL connection.
22:37	andyf	cfleming: Eastwood uses a copy and rename hack to avoid namespace version conflicts with user projects. Not fun, but effective
22:37	cfleming	andyf: gen-class just writes the class files, right? Or does it write more than that?
22:37	cfleming	andyf: Yes, I'd have to do that, for sure.
22:37	andyf	cfleming: I think only 1 class file
22:37	TEttinger	I'm wondering if anyone with experience in uberjar internals would be able to make sense of this issue I'm having bundling JREs with Clojure Uberjars, but not Java Runnable Jars. https://github.com/libgdx/packr/issues/33#issuecomment-62863164
22:38	TEttinger	that's a jump to the comment that gets to what I think the issue may be
22:41	cfleming	andyf: I assume proxy probably does as well - deftype/reify have built in forms so they don't have to.
22:42	andyf	I don't recall the others I found right now - keeping a list for future reference would have been a good idea
22:46	cfleming	I guess definterface etc as well - pretty much anything pre-protocols which generates a class
22:47	Bronsa	cfleming: btw if you're interested in that, I think I can think of a way to do out-of-order macroexpansion with t.a.jvm
22:47	Bronsa	cfleming: you're correct, yes
22:47	cfleming	Bronsa: I am definitely interested in that.
22:48	Bronsa	deftype/defprotocol/reify do that at analysis time otoh
22:48	cfleming	I'm still not sure how the UI should work, but basically the desire is to be able to select a form for expansion, and have that expansion be as accurate as possible.
22:49	justin_smith	regarding proxy, I just did ##(proxy [Object] [] (toString [] "boo")) and did not see anything show up on disk
22:49	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Var$Unbound cannot be cast to clojure.lang.DynamicClassLoader
22:49	cfleming	justin_smith: Actually, proxy might just define the class from memory directly.
22:50	cfleming	justin_smith: gen-class and definterface have to.
22:50	Bronsa	justin_smith: proxy aots only with compile-files true
22:50	justin_smith	cool
22:50	cfleming	to write to disk, that is.
22:51	justin_smith	cfleming: now that I think about it, it makes sense on an intuitive level that the constructs that directly deal with java stuff like classes / interfaces would construct things on disk
22:51	Bronsa	cfleming: yes I think I understand what you need. I'm going to sleep now but I'll think about it & let you know if it can be done in a reasonable way
22:51	cfleming	Bronsa: BTW Cursive can now mark vars that are not used anywhere in the project
22:51	justin_smith	while more abstracted stuff may not
22:51	cfleming	Bronsa: Ok, thanks. I'm pretty busy right now, this will all be post-conj, so no rush.
22:53	cfleming	justin_smith: Right, it's just a little odd that it happens in macroexpansion. It makes sense though since there's really no other time to do it without language changes.
22:54	justin_smith	yeah, a side-effect-free expansion stage would allow interesting tooling though
22:54	justin_smith	and simpler
22:54	cfleming	justin_smith: Yeah, this is why I don't want to automatically macroexpand for Cursive's analysis
22:55	cfleming	Scheme macros would be easier since that's a pattern matching system IIRC, it doesn't allow arbitrary code execution.
23:00	Bronsa	cfleming: would you be able to add a metadata flag to the sub-form that needs to be macroexpanded? e.g. (foo (bar ^:mexpand-this (baz ..) ..) ..)
23:01	cfleming	Bronsa: I was planning to, I can't see any other way to keep track of where you need to macroexpand.
23:02	cfleming	Bronsa: I'm not doing anything with metadata yet, I'd actually like to be able to expand with full metadata, then I can hide it in the UI and selectively show what the user wants to see (full metadata, only type hints, etc).
23:03	cfleming	Bronsa: But I think to do that I'd have to read from the top of the file for the metadata to be accurate.
23:08	Bronsa	cfleming: you mean, for source-info metadata?
23:08	cfleming	Bronsa: Right.
23:09	cfleming	Bronsa: Plus whatever metadata previous macroexpansions have added, but I don't need to parse from the top of the file for that, just from the top-level form.
23:09	Bronsa	cfleming: well, you could use tools.reader's IndexingPushbackReader :P you can specify the line/col offset in the ctor
23:10	cfleming	Bronsa: Oh nice :)
23:11	cfleming	Bronsa: It might be possible to get away without custom metadata, and just saying "expand the form at line 100, col 23"
23:11	cfleming	Bronsa: That metadata should be preserved through expansions I think.
23:11	Bronsa	cfleming: there might be ways to do that with the clojure reader aswell but I'm obviously going to promote my libs :P
23:12	cfleming	Bronsa: Of course, I expect nothing else :)
23:12	Bronsa	cfleming: yeah that should be possible aswell
23:12	cfleming	Bronsa: Anyway, you should go to bed, this isn't urgent for me.
23:12	Bronsa	right.
23:22	sm0ke	play-clj is great, but it still feels very low level, i wish there was a higher level of abstraction for making games
23:22	sm0ke	something like elm in clojure
23:28	bbloom	sm0ke: https://twitter.com/ClojureNYC/status/533435896939700224
23:29	sm0ke	$google github clojure reagi
23:29	lazybot	[weavejester/reagi · GitHub] https://github.com/weavejester/reagi
23:29	sm0ke	btw reagi is awesome, but the main problem lies in tying frp with game entities
23:31	sm0ke	anyhow the paper on elm could be an intersting read
23:31	sm0ke	thanks bbloom