#clojure – 2014-10-01

2014-10-01

00:37	joshuafcole	Are there any good tools for hunting down memory leaks in clojure? I'm interfacing with libgdx via play-clj
00:38	joshuafcole	I'm ~80% certain that the problem is I'm spinning up a shape renderer each frame (part of an experimental mess). A refactor is planned, but I want to learn how to find the problem when it's less obvious
00:39	joshuafcole	interestingly, trying to call dispose on the shape renderer when I'm done with it throws an exception, hence the other 20%
00:42	amalloy	joshuafcole: i've gotta go, but see: jmap for heap dumps (comes with the jdk), or yourkit for profiling
00:42	joshuafcole	Sure, I'll take a look. Thanks!
00:49	vIkSiT	hello all
00:50	danielcompton	joshuafcole: jvisualvm (also with jdk) might be helpful for profiling
00:50	vIkSiT	if I have a collection c [1 2 3 4 5] - and I want to transform it such that only every alternate element is transformed
00:50	vIkSiT	how would I do it?
00:50	joshuafcole	first way that comes to my (novice) mind is
00:50	danielcompton	vIkSiT: partition by 2, then operate on the first element only?
00:51	vIkSiT	eg, I want to add 1 to every alternate number
00:51	vIkSiT	danielcompton, hmm - thats a good option. would it work for a stream?
00:51	danielcompton	vIkSiT: it works on sequences, is that what you mean?
00:52	vIkSiT	danielcompton, ah. true
01:01	vIkSiT	hmm
01:01	vIkSiT	I guess that doesn't work
01:01	vIkSiT	what I really want is the following:
01:02	vIkSiT	(def a [1 2 3 4 5])
01:02	vIkSiT	(transform a)
01:02	vIkSiT	=> [1 "2" 3 "4" 5]
01:02	vIkSiT	assuming the function I'm applying is str
01:02	vIkSiT	(transform a str)
01:09	sm0ke	,(map-indexed (fn [x y] (if (odd? x) (str y) y)) [1 2 3 4])
01:09	clojurebot	(1 "2" 3 "4")
01:09	sm0ke	,(map-indexed (fn [x y] (if (odd? x) (str y) y)) [1 2 3 4 5])
01:09	clojurebot	(1 "2" 3 "4" 5)
01:10	sm0ke	,(defn transform [f c] #(map-indexed (fn [x y] (if (odd? x) (f y) y)) c))
01:10	clojurebot	#'sandbox/transform
01:11	sm0ke	,(transform str [1 2 3 4 5])
01:11	clojurebot	#<sandbox$transform$fn__77 sandbox$transform$fn__77@1fb8a15>
01:11	sm0ke	lolwut
01:11	sm0ke	ugh
01:11	TEttinger	you have transform defined as returning a fn
01:11	sm0ke	,(defn transform [f c] (map-indexed (fn [x y] (if (odd? x) (f y) y)) c))
01:11	clojurebot	#'sandbox/transform
01:11	sm0ke	,(transform str [1 2 3 4 5])
01:11	clojurebot	(1 "2" 3 "4" 5)
01:12	TEttinger	map-indexed is a weird one.
01:12	sm0ke	yep
01:12	bbloom	no
01:12	bbloom	(doc map-indexed)
01:12	clojurebot	"([f coll]); Returns a lazy sequence consisting of the result of applying f to 0 and the first item of coll, followed by applying f to 1 and the second item in coll, etc, until coll is exhausted. Thus function f should accept 2 arguments, index and item."
01:13	TEttinger	,(defn transform' [f &colls] (map (fn [idx &args] (if (odd? idx) (f args) args)) (range) colls))
01:13	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: args in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
01:13	TEttinger	,(defn transform' [f &colls] (map (fn [idx & args] (if (odd? idx) (f args) args)) (range) colls))
01:13	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: colls in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
01:13	TEttinger	,(defn transform' [f & colls] (map (fn [idx & args] (if (odd? idx) (f args) args)) (range) colls))
01:13	clojurebot	#'sandbox/transform'
01:14	TEttinger	,(transform' + [1 2 3] [10 20 30])
01:14	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: Cannot cast clojure.lang.ArraySeq to java.lang.Number>
01:14	TEttinger	oh
01:14	TEttinger	,(defn transform' [f & colls] (map (fn [idx & args] (if (odd? idx) (apply f args) args)) (range) colls))
01:14	clojurebot	#'sandbox/transform'
01:14	TEttinger	,(transform' + [1 2 3] [10 20 30])
01:14	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: Cannot cast clojure.lang.PersistentVector to java.lang.Number>
01:14	TEttinger	gah
01:15	sm0ke	humm you may want to zip them
01:15	TEttinger	,(defn transform' [f & colls] (apply map (fn [idx & args] (if (odd? idx) (apply f args) args)) (range) colls))
01:15	clojurebot	#'sandbox/transform'
01:15	TEttinger	,(transform' + [1 2 3] [10 20 30])
01:15	clojurebot	((1 10) 22 (3 30))
01:15	TEttinger	wat
01:15	sm0ke	lol
01:15	TEttinger	oh good
01:16	TEttinger	that is actually correct
01:17	TEttinger	,(transform' str ["a" "b" "c" "d" "e"] [1 2 3 4 5])
01:17	clojurebot	(("a" 1) "b2" ("c" 3) "d4" ("e" 5))
01:17	sm0ke	wth is up with the list
01:17	TEttinger	it checks that the index is odd
01:17	TEttinger	if not, it returns the items from the colls at that index
01:18	sm0ke	yes but it doesnt apply the function
01:18	TEttinger	if yes, it applies f to both, and returns that
01:18	sm0ke	,(defn transformz [f & colls] (apply map (fn [idx & args] (if (odd? idx) (apply f args) args)) (range) colls))
01:18	clojurebot	#'sandbox/transformz
01:18	sm0ke	,(transformz + [1 2 3] [4 5 6])
01:18	clojurebot	((1 4) 7 (3 6))
01:18	TEttinger	yup
01:18	sm0ke	why isnt it (5 7 9)!
01:19	TEttinger	remember, it's treating (if (odd? idx)) differently
01:19	sm0ke	oh you had a apply before map
01:19	sm0ke	hurm
01:19	TEttinger	,(defn transform-all [f & colls] (apply map (fn [idx & args] (apply f args)) (range) colls))
01:19	clojurebot	#'sandbox/transform-all
01:20	TEttinger	,(transform-all str ["a" "b" "c" "d" "e"] [1 2 3 4 5])
01:20	clojurebot	("a1" "b2" "c3" "d4" "e5")
01:20	TEttinger	same as
01:20	TEttinger	,(map str ["a" "b" "c" "d" "e"] [1 2 3 4 5])
01:20	clojurebot	("a1" "b2" "c3" "d4" "e5")
01:21	sm0ke	yes i know that
01:21	sm0ke	but i am not able to spot why the function is not being applied
01:21	sm0ke	,(transformz + [1 2 3] [4 5 6])
01:21	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: transformz in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
01:21	sm0ke	(apply f args) why is it giving a list
01:22	sm0ke	oh i get it
01:23	TEttinger	yep, it gives a list in the else case
01:23	sm0ke	its those who are not being applied
01:23	sm0ke	TEttinger: who told you to write such a weird function
01:24	sm0ke	that was a weird one
01:25	sm0ke	,(range)
01:25	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4 ...)
02:15	blur3d	I’ve been struggling with some fairly simple clojurescipt/javascript interop. Bascially, I call a native javascript function, which returns a javascript array - however, I am having trouble using that array in the clojurescript code. The error I am getting is [object Object], [object Object], [object Object] is not iSeqable. The problem is that is it an array, and I think there might be a nodejs bug.
02:16	blur3d	I’ve tried casting it to an array also, but that didn’t seem to help
02:17	blur3d	(println (first #js [1 2 3])) works as expected - it returns 1
02:17	blur3d	however, (println (first ports)) - where ports is an array (confirmed in webkit console), it gives the iSeqable error
02:18	blur3d	**correction it prints ‘1’… returns nil.
02:20	blur3d	http://imgur.com/Ctf5K45 is an image of the webkit console. It dumps the ports value (using (.dir js/console ports), which shows it is an array
02:29	dbasch	javascript arrays are not seqable, you need to convert it to clojurescript
02:32	blur3d	I’m thinking it is related to http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-842
02:33	blur3d	dbasch: if javascript arrays are not seqable, why does (first #js [1 2 3]) work? I’m fairly sure clojurescript has a protocol that handles the conversion now
02:42	dbasch	try (implements? ISeqable #js [1 2 3])
02:43	dbasch	and
02:43	dbasch	(implements? ISeqable (js->clj #js [1 2 3]))
02:45	blur3d	false, and true respectively. So you’re right
03:15	wei	is there a shortcut for (let [x …] (do-something-with! x) x)
03:21	amalloy	(doto x (do-something-with!))
03:21	amalloy	&(doc doto)
03:21	lazybot	⇒ "Macro ([x & forms]); Evaluates x then calls all of the methods and functions with the value of x supplied at the front of the given arguments. The forms are evaluated in order. Returns x. (doto (new java.util.HashMap) (.put \"a\" 1) (.put \"b\" 2))"
03:22	magopian	&(doto 1 inc)
03:22	lazybot	⇒ 1
03:22	magopian	obviously ;)
03:22	magopian	&(doto 1 str)
03:22	lazybot	⇒ 1
03:23	amalloy	&(doto 1 println)
03:23	lazybot	⇒ 1 1
03:23	magopian	thanks ;)
03:23	magopian	i was thinking about something with side effect, was thinking a bit too much :)
03:23	magopian	(it's still "early" here in the morning... and yes, that's my only lame excuse :)
03:29	wei	sweet, thanks amalloy
03:42	iamcyberbird	hmm any way i can get rid of the curly f function symbol and use a lambda symbol instead?
03:42	iamcyberbird	more of an emacs question but i'm sure someone knows here
03:44	pellis	hi all. i'm trying to figure out how https://clojurecup.com was made - what javascript framework was used in addition to React (hoping authors sit in this chan)
03:44	pellis	anyone have an idea?
03:45	Rhainur	pellis: probably Om?
03:46	pellis	given that React covers the UI concerns, does Om also cover the architecture concerns? i.e. a general structure of an app?
03:46	pellis	for example, routing and event propagation?
03:47	Rhainur	oh no I meant Om is ClojureScript's interface to React
03:47	Rhainur	https://github.com/swannodette/om
03:49	pellis	Rhainur: ah, i see!
03:50	pellis	Rhainur: well, I think i bumped into Om somewhere - just this site brought up question such as what about routing, servers, events and such
03:51	ddellacosta_	pellis: Om is really only the "view" in MVC...sort of. More to the point, many architectures are possible with Om.
03:52	ddellacosta_	pellis: event propagation is handled by React, but routing is not. Many folks using Om use Secretary to handle client-side routing: https://github.com/gf3/secretary
03:58	wei	design question. I’m using redis/carmine to put some computation jobs on a queue. after a computation is finished, the owner of the job needs to be notified of the answer. what’s a good way to do this? (another queue?)
04:01	ucb_	hi all, where am I going wrong: https://gist.github.com/3e7814d9a56a2c5139ed ?
04:05	ucb_	oh, I know, heh
04:11	ucb_	oh, am I stuck with signed bytes in clojure by any chance?
04:14	ucb_	bah, ignore me again
04:16	TEttinger	ucb_: there's at the very least ztellman's byte handling lib
04:17	rritoch	ucb_: It is a java limitation, you can upgrade to byte if you need to hold 8 bits without dealing with the sign, but you'll need alot of (bit-and 255 x) if your doing cryptography
04:17	ucb_	TEttinger: yeah, I'm using bytebuffer (the lib), but I was being silly with all my questions. I don't need to do any interpretation of the bytes as it were. Thanks though!
04:17	ucb_	rritoch: yeah, and fortunately I am not doing crypto because I clearly don't understand all this stuff very well ^_^
04:17	rritoch	err, upgrade to int
04:18	mmeixner	Newbie question: is there an idiomatic difference between "apply + " and "reduce + " ?
04:20	pyrtsa	mmeixner: For variadic functions like +, it's probably best to use apply because it lets the function short-circuit (and not evaluate all the arguments) when it matters. Not that + would short-circuit but still.
04:20	mmeixner	I see, so this is an implementation detail somehow
04:20	mmeixner	thanx
04:21	TEttinger	it is important to understand the difference between apply and reduce though
04:21	mmeixner	ah ...
04:21	ucb_	mmeixner: not just, consider the gymnastics you'd have to do if you wanted to apply conj for instance
04:21	pyrtsa	mmeixner: The difference is: with apply, the function + immediately sees that it's called with a sequence of arguments. With reduce, the function always gets called with 2 arguments.
04:21	ucb_	the trouble with apply and conj is that not all parameters to conj are of the same type
04:22	pyrtsa	ucb_: Neither necessarily with reduce when you pass the init argument: (reduce f init xs)
04:23	mmeixner	I see - some REPLing necessary to work this out ...
04:23	ucb_	pyrtsa: indeed, but with apply you'd have to conj/cons the initial collection (or nil) to the collection of items you want to cons, right?
04:23	pyrtsa	ucb_: You can say (apply conj coll xs)
04:24	ucb_	oh, you can do that indeed!
04:24	ucb_	IVE BEEN WRONG ALL MY LIFE
04:24	pyrtsa	And again, the difference is that conj immediately sees that there are many things (i.e. xs), not just one (x).
04:24	ucb_	sure
04:25	pyrtsa	Indeed, (conj (conj (conj coll a) b) c) has a very different performance from (apply conj coll xs).
04:25	pyrtsa	(...As far as I remember.)
04:25	ucb_	it should, right?
04:26	pyrtsa	I think it should use transients behind the scenes. At least it could.
04:26	mange	pyrtsa: A great example of the performance difference is with (apply str ...) vs (reduce str ...), I think.
04:27	pyrtsa	mange: Great. That's a good one.
04:27	mmeixner	I just found this: "+ is itself implemented in terms of reduce for the variable-arity case (more than 2 arguments). "
04:27	mmeixner	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3153396/clojure-reduce-vs-apply
04:29	mmeixner	thanks for all input! time to think ...
04:42	rritoch	ucb_: if you need something simple, here's an ugly hack to do your byte conversion which handles the sign bit for you (-> 0x98 str javax.xml.bind.DatatypeConverter/parseByte)
04:52	TEttinger	,(-> 0x98 str javax.xml.bind.DatatypeConverter/parseByte)
04:52	clojurebot	-104
04:52	TEttinger	,0x98
04:52	clojurebot	152
04:54	TEttinger	,(bit-and 0x98 -2r1111111)
04:54	clojurebot	128
04:54	TEttinger	hm
04:54	TEttinger	,(bit-and 0x98 2r1111111)
04:54	clojurebot	24
04:57	CookedGryphon	Does anyone know if transit needs all its dependencies in all situations? I'd like to use it, but I'm on android and it adds ~14k method references with its dependencies when my total limit is 64k
04:57	CookedGryphon	Ideally I'd proguard things out, but I want to be able to use it from the repl
04:59	TEttinger	,(+ (bit-and 0x98 127) (* -1 (bit-and 0x98 128)))
04:59	clojurebot	-104
04:59	TEttinger	rritoch, should be... a bit faster
05:00	TEttinger	,[(+ (bit-and 0xf8 127) (* -1 (bit-and 0xf8 128))) (-> 0xf8 str javax.xml.bind.DatatypeConverter/parseByte)]
05:00	clojurebot	[-8 -8]
05:00	clgv	TEttinger: proof by criterium? ;)
05:00	TEttinger	,[(+ (bit-and 0x18 127) (* -1 (bit-and 0x18 128))) (-> 0x18 str javax.xml.bind.DatatypeConverter/parseByte)]
05:00	clojurebot	[24 24]
05:01	TEttinger	it's simple bit twiddling. it isolates the least significant 7 bits, and subtracts 128 if there's a value in the sign bit place (eighth bit, 128)
05:04	TEttinger	,[(- (bit-and 0x18 127) (bit-and 0x18 128)) (-> 0x18 str javax.xml.bind.DatatypeConverter/parseByte)]
05:04	clojurebot	[24 24]
05:04	clgv	no, I mean the supposed performance improvement ;)
05:04	TEttinger	oh haha
05:04	TEttinger	ya think?
05:05	clgv	on the jvm I only believe in performance improvements backed up by benchmark numbers ,)
05:05	rritoch	TEttinger: The version I provided was simply for readability, there are much faster ways, the fastest being to just use (byte -104), it will really depend on the implementation as to what method is best.
05:06	TEttinger	,(time (map #(- (bit-and % 127) (bit-and % 128)) (range 255)))
05:06	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 0.136753 msecs"\n(0 1 2 3 4 ...)
05:06	TEttinger	,(time (map # (-> % str javax.xml.bind.DatatypeConverter/parseByte) (range 255)))
05:06	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Reader tag must be a symbol>
05:06	TEttinger	,(time (map #(-> % str javax.xml.bind.DatatypeConverter/parseByte) (range 255)))
05:06	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 0.121739 msecs"\n(0 1 2 3 4 ...)
05:06	TEttinger	waaaaat
05:06	TEttinger	jit.
05:07	rritoch	TEttinger: His problem though is to create a byte, neither of your codes create a byte
05:07	TEttinger	,(time (map #(byte (- (bit-and % 127) (bit-and % 128))) (range 255)))
05:07	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 0.143679 msecs"\n(0 1 2 3 4 ...)
05:08	TEttinger	I don't get you, hotspot jit
05:09	rritoch	TEttinger: I get it, duped by clojure's slowness, the DatatypeConverter library may be coded in binary (assembled) so it gets an unfair speed advantage.
05:09	TEttinger	ah
05:09	TEttinger	so if mine was AOTed it would be better
05:09	TEttinger	(than it is now)
05:10	clgv	TEttinger: you definitely need to use cirterium (or similar) for these measurements
05:11	clgv	and using lazy functions wont help either ;)
05:11	TEttinger	well they're both using map
05:12	clgv	yeah but (map ..) gets evaluated when printing so not within (time ...)
05:13	clgv	you measured the construction of the lazy-seq not its realization which you wanted to
05:13	clgv	(quick-bench (mapv #(- (bit-and % 127) (bit-and % 128)) (range 255))) => Execution time mean : 11.765617 µs
05:13	clgv	(quick-bench (mapv #(-> % str javax.xml.bind.DatatypeConverter/parseByte) (range 255))) => Execution time mean : 18.155778 µs
05:13	TEttinger	gah
05:14	TEttinger	well that's promising
05:14	clgv	you could rerun the above with `bench` to be more accurate
05:16	clgv	I have used criterium a lot lately
05:27	vanila	hi!
05:27	vanila	How does the clojure compiler work?
05:29	noidi	pretty well, thanks for asking
05:29	vanila	haha
05:29	noidi	but seriously, that's too broad a question to be answered in any meaningful way
05:30	rritoch	TEttinger: Ok, well speed wise I think this should be the fastest (.byteValue 0x98)
05:31	danielcompton	I benchmarked the bit functions with criterium, what happened next will surprise you...
05:31	rritoch	Honestly, I didn't even know Long had a byteValue method...
05:32	TEttinger	haha good point
05:33	TEttinger	vanila, I think it's a little atypical of lisp implementations, since it compiles to jvm .class files on-the-fly or ahead-of-time as requested.
05:34	vanila	interesting!
05:34	TEttinger	almost everything gets its own .class file, like each fn
05:35	TEttinger	I don't know how it assembles the .class files other than "it's complicated and don't touch it"
05:36	TEttinger	you can go through clojure's source on github, but it's pretty big
05:36	cfleming	And pretty ugly the first time you see it.
05:36	cfleming	The compiler, that is.
05:37	TEttinger	a lot of it is in https://github.com/clojure/clojure/tree/master/src/jvm/clojure/asm
05:37	CookedGryphon	cfleming: I don't know about that. I couldn't imagine being able to go and confidently make changes to the compiler of any other language I've used, but with Clojure I can look at the source and understand most of what's going on
05:37	TEttinger	then there's this 8563-line file, https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Compiler.java
05:38	danielcompton	https://www.refheap.com/91008
05:38	danielcompton	TEttinger: not a lot in it between them
05:38	danielcompton	though I do realise they're not all doing the same thing
05:39	cfleming	CookedGryphon: I've read a few compilers but I find the Clojure one pretty difficult to read. You're right that it's pretty concise for a production language though.
05:39	TEttinger	danielcompton, why does the last one not show criterium bench stuff?
05:39	cfleming	CookedGryphon: I like the Clojurescript compiler source a lot.
05:42	vanila	What compiler might I be better to read?
05:42	TEttinger	vanila, it might be good to start with some small ones in the compile-to-JS area
05:42	TEttinger	what are you familiar with now, vanila? https://github.com/jashkenas/coffeescript/wiki/List-of-languages-that-compile-to-JS
05:43	vanila	thanks! I'll look at some of these
05:46	TEttinger	wat is a nice tiny core of a language that may be a good starting point. not compiled though. https://github.com/manuel/wat-js
05:47	TEttinger	the cola stuff is apparently fascinating to compiler buffs http://www.piumarta.com/software/cola/
05:48	vanila	these links are great cheers!
05:48	rritoch	vanilla why are you digging into the clojure compiler? If your not familiar with compiler design it may take you years. I've watched some of the MIT course on the subject (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-bpyDgBxAo&list=PL0300FE43396456C1&index=1) but it put me to sleep after a few classes since most of it I'm already famliar with.
05:49	TEttinger	http://www.piumarta.com/software/maru/ is another tiny compiler in C, this one looks quite interesting but I have no idea how cross-platform it is
05:55	TEttinger	vanila, I would strongly consider the translator rather than compiler route, like clojurescript does (translates to js, then use a compiler like google closure to make it optimized)
05:56	TEttinger	ki is another apparently very small model that uses clojurescript
05:57	TEttinger	http://ki-lang.org/
05:58	amano-	木
05:58	TEttinger	this is basically the whole thing https://github.com/lantiga/ki/blob/master/src/ki.sjs
05:58	TEttinger	it macroexpands to javascript, which is extremely clever
05:59	vanila	wow!
05:59	vanila	That is really nifty
06:06	rritoch	TEttinger, are you aware of a clojure form -> C "translator"? One of my clients requested I compile clojure forms to C for use with OpenCL but the project is far beyond the complexity I'm willing to swallow.
06:06	TEttinger	yes, there's a clojurec out there.
06:06	rritoch	Cool, I'll have to check it out
06:06	TEttinger	https://github.com/schani/clojurec
06:08	TEttinger	bertfrees' fork seems slightly further along, rritoch https://github.com/bertfrees/clojurec
06:09	TEttinger	oh, and there is opencl support in java, shouldn't be too hard to use if you have a JVM handy
06:09	TEttinger	https://github.com/ztellman/calx
06:09	TEttinger	oh mr. tellman, is there anything your libs don't do?
06:09	TEttinger	(be slow, I guess)
06:11	rritoch	TEttinger, this is the project so far, it's been sleeping for awhile https://github.com/rritoch/WarpCTL, I used JOCL for the OpenCL support..
06:13	rritoch	I lost interest in the project after trying to grab Cuda GPU temperatures using swig, most Cuda libraries are very platform dependent, I had some luck with NVML, but that's as far as I got on the project.
06:14	TEttinger	cuda itself won't even run on AMD or intel graphics, so there's a limit right off the bat..
06:15	rritoch	The library itself uses OpenCL, but for temperatures you need to directly access the device drivers. For AMD it was the ADL-SDK which was fairly easy
06:17	rritoch	But for Cuda I tried multiple libraries, most won't compile on linux, but the NVML library seems to work, at least on windows, I don't have a Linux+NVidia system to test on.
06:17	TEttinger	yeah sounds nasty
06:18	rritoch	Well, my linux box has 2X280X R9's crossfired, without accurate temperature controls they'll burn themselves to death in a short time.
06:19	rritoch	I'm just assuming similar thermal problems with NVidia high-end GPU's
06:20	rritoch	Either way, if I can find the way to translate forms to C and inject them into OpenCL that would be awesome. Right now I just make task-specific, hard-coded, kernels.
06:21	rritoch	That clojurec project looks promising though, if I can find my way through to the parts that can convert forms to C
06:24	aztak	any suggestions for how to make this more dry and clojuresque? :) https://gist.github.com/metamorph/754c59eba4186c6c4981 (I'm adding a :winner entry to a map depending on existing entries in the map)
06:27	noncom	how do i select the s-expression where the cursor is currently, in emacs/prelude ?
06:27	clgv	did ClojureC progress lately? is it usable at all for non-trivial clojure functions?
06:28	TEttinger	clgv, it has not progressed lately
06:28	noncom	same as alt + shift + up in ccw
06:28	clgv	TEttinger: so probably pretty dead...
06:29	TEttinger	I'd think calx would be the way to go, but I think the client requirements may be different than what it provides
06:31	clgv	TEttinger: but calx is like embedded assembler in c/c++ ;)
06:41	pellis	ddellacosta_: thanks for the secretary tip. is there a listing of typical clojurescript frontend stack?
06:42	ddellacosta_	pellis: I don't know if there is a typical front-end stack, actually! plenty of folks using reagent along with Om, not to mention server-side rendered stuff w/enlive, etc...
06:43	ddellacosta_	pellis: take a look at the Om readme for Om-related stack stuff, at least...
06:43	pellis	ah, thanks
06:49	borkdude	I am the only one who wants to turn a C-x-f action into a dired buffer half way through cd-ing a path?
06:50	borkdude	if not, how do the others do it?
06:54	borkdude	just C-d does it - yes!
07:11	clgv	borkdude: I did only hear spanish ;)
07:12	vijaykiran	hey - that's emacsish
07:14	clgv	so that's emacs lisp? ;) :P
07:15	borkdude	clgv key chords
07:16	vijaykiran	borkdude: I thought (from your tweet) you are using that cursive thingie
07:16	borkdude	vijaykiran I try to be tool agnostic :)
07:17	borkdude	vijaykiran normally I use emacs, but for a workshop I will recommend cursive, so I have to have some knowledge about it myself
07:17	cfleming	vijaykiran: except he loves Cursive, he can't help himself :-)
07:17	borkdude	cfleming true!
07:18	borkdude	vijaykiran yesterday I tried emacs with lein ring: didn't work. cursive did. (inc cursive)
07:18	cfleming	vijaykiran: (disclaimer: I develop Cursive, so take anything I say about how much people love it with a grain of salt)
07:18	vijaykiran	man all these new-age-ide people ...
07:19	vijaykiran	cfleming: great work, btw. I'm not a Cursive user ... yet.
07:19	cfleming	vijaykiran: Thanks! There's always time, we'll be waiting.
07:20	borkdude	vijaykiran you have emacs and cursive open on the same project and have benefits from both sides
07:20	cfleming	borkdude: Out of curiosity, what's nicer in Emacs than Cursive at the moment?
07:21	LauJensen	Has anyone here been able to connect LightTable to an nrepl started from Immutant yet?
07:21	vijaykiran	Emacs is nicer :) well for me it's not just for clojure dev
07:22	vijaykiran	Not that I don't have IntelliJ open all the time (for lesser lang-dev)
07:22	borkdude	cfleming I'd have to think about that while developing. I'm just more used to emacs keybindings
07:22	clgv	LauJensen: what's the problem? unknown port? middleware problems? http transport?
07:23	borkdude	cfleming I tried C-k in Intellij. It removed the whole line instead of structurally
07:23	cfleming	borkdude: Sure, just wondering - familarity is huge.
07:23	LauJensen	clgv: Unsure - Its simply hanging in the "Connecting" phase
07:23	clgv	LauJensen: can you connect with another client? e.g. leiningen?
07:24	cfleming	borkdude: Ah, you can fix that. Bind the Kill action to C-k, it'll override the built-in action in Clojure contexts and leave it in others.
07:24	LauJensen	clgv: Connecting to the same port via cider/emacs works fine
07:24	borkdude	cfleming I'll try
07:24	clgv	LauJensen: lein repl :connect host.port
07:24	kyrre	How can I use clojure.data.zip.xml/xml-> (or any other function) to find the first occurrence of a tag in an XML file (without specifying all the parents) ?
07:24	cfleming	borkdude: The next drop actually has a keybinding panel that lets you configure all the keybindings at once to the Emacs defaults if you like.
07:24	clgv	LauJensen: ah ok. so probably a lighttable issue
07:25	borkdude	cfleming that's very nice
07:25	cfleming	borkdude: Except for the cider ones unfortunately, since I can't take over C-c by default.
07:25	LauJensen	clgv: Thats what Im thinking
07:25	cfleming	borkdude: But paredit etc should all be there.
07:26	clgv	LauJensen: they have their issues managed on github
07:27	borkdude	ah nice, C-k works now
07:27	cfleming	borkdude: Great
07:29	dysfun	is there a builtin that's equivalent to (partial filter id) ?
07:30	gfredericks	no; keep is the composition of that with map I think
07:30	gfredericks	(= (partial filter identity) (partial keep identity)) ;; probably
07:30	dysfun	that sounds quite handy
07:31	gfredericks	,(keep first [[3 4] [] [5 6] [] [] [] [7]])
07:31	clojurebot	(3 5 7)
07:32	dysfun	yeah, i can use that for some of this
07:32	dysfun	thanks
07:32	gfredericks	I use (remove nil? ...) a lot, which is slightly different
07:33	dysfun	,(remove nil? (map first [[3 4] [] [5 6] [] [] [] [7]]))
07:33	clojurebot	(3 5 7)
07:34	borkdude	I wondered, does the clojure compiler optimize when you use collection literals in functions, like (fn [x (#{:a :b} x)), or does it construct the collection in every call?
07:35	borkdude	(fn [x] ... I mean
07:35	gfredericks	borkdude: I think if the collection contains only literals, the whole thing can be stored once
07:35	gfredericks	I haven't double checked that it actually does that though
07:35	gfredericks	hey hey easy to find out
07:35	gfredericks	,(defn make-a-set [] #{2 3 7})
07:35	clojurebot	#'sandbox/make-a-set
07:35	gfredericks	,(identical? (make-a-set) (make-a-set))
07:35	clojurebot	true
07:36	gfredericks	whereas of course:
07:36	gfredericks	,(defn make-a-set [x] #{2 3 7 x})
07:36	clojurebot	#'sandbox/make-a-set
07:36	gfredericks	,(identical? (make-a-set 42) (make-a-set 42))
07:36	clojurebot	false
07:36	borkdude	clojure is fantastic :)
07:40	gfredericks	iterate-while would be a nice function to have sometimes
07:42	gfredericks	I hesitate to use iterate + take-while if overshooting the underlying lazy seq would throw an exception
07:47	m1dnight	My very basic actor implementation is taking shape. It gets ugly real quick though, due to not having pattern matching like Erlang.
07:48	dysfun	core.match?
07:48	clojurebot	core.match is a pattern-matching library available for use by anybody but technomancy
07:48	dysfun	:)
07:48	dysfun	although i've found in a lot of cases it works out cleaner to not use it than to use it. really depends what your functions look like
07:49	m1dnight	dysfun: In parameters that is. Like pong(<something>, 1) <body> and pong(<something>, othe_than_1): <body>
07:49	dysfun	i had a particularly bad example earlier though where the smallest reasonable core.match was 9 lines and the regular clojure 3 lines
07:52	gfredericks	core.matrix is the first place I've seen the PFoo naming convention for protocols
07:57	dysfun	(commonly along with (defrecord foo [] foo-proo ... )
07:58	dysfun	m1dnight: you can use guards for some of that
07:59	dysfun	(a :guard my-type?)
07:59	m1dnight	oh, like haskell
07:59	m1dnight	ill check it out dysfun
07:59	m1dnight	thnx
07:59	dysfun	np
07:59	dysfun	you may also like core.logic
07:59	daniel___	any frameworks built on garden? a bootstrap/foundation type framework would be cool
08:00	dysfun	or core.unify
08:00	daniel___	at least with a grid and some basic components
08:00	dysfun	it wouldn't take you long to adapt blueprint, for example
08:01	dysfun	much of it could be done automatically
08:01	daniel___	dysfun: how would you do it automatically?
08:01	daniel___	but i might start one as a little side project
08:01	dysfun	find a css parser and process it
08:02	daniel___	problem is, im not a css expert
08:02	dysfun	why do you have to be an expert?
08:02	dysfun	the syntax is intentionally very simple
08:02	daniel___	theres a lot of things to learn when it comes to responsive design
08:02	daniel___	media queries etc
08:03	dysfun	what are you trying to do?
08:03	daniel___	have a framework to make sites quickly that look half decent
08:03	daniel___	bootstrap and foundation are fine, i'd just like to use clojure
08:03	daniel___	since i use clj/cljs all over
08:04	dysfun	i'm not seeing the problem with using bootstrap and just writing new css in garden
08:04	daniel___	if everything was written in garden from the ground up, it would be easier to extend
08:04	daniel___	extending bootstrap with plain css doesnt really give you power over all the variables and functions less/sass provide
08:05	dysfun	ah. well for that, you have compass (which has blueprint mixins), but it's not garden syntax obviously
08:05	dysfun	you could automatically translate bootstrap to provide garden primitives i think
08:06	daniel___	i probably could, i'll give it a go if i have time
08:06	dysfun	it seems like the element translation function would be <5 lines
08:14	daniel___	dysfun: element translation function?
08:15	daniel___	to translate less into garden?
08:16	dysfun	well, slightly more to translate something like less perhaps. but the pure css, yeah
08:17	daniel___	yeah, i could try and work backwards
08:17	daniel___	and then just refactor
08:47	silasdavis	is there any way to produce an (AOT'd) record with typed (non-Object) member fields
08:47	silasdavis	I was sort of hoping annotations might do it
08:48	stuartsierra	silasdavis: no
08:48	silasdavis	just write a Java class then I suppose.. ?
08:54	stuartsierra	ya
09:07	clgv	silasdavis: primitive member fields?
09:08	clgv	silasdavis: otherwise you won't win much except you can omit type hints
09:12	craigglennie	Stupid question… why doesn’t this return two lists, with even numbers in one and odd in the other? (split-with even? (range -5 5))
09:13	craigglennie	This works to split into negative and non-negative: (split-with neg? (range -5 5))
09:13	stuartsierra	craigglennie: That's not what `split-with` does.
09:14	stuartsierra	oh, nevermind
09:14	stuartsierra	ignore me
09:14	stuartsierra	no, I'm right
09:14	clgv	,(split-with neg? (range -5 5))
09:14	clojurebot	[(-5 -4 -3 -2 -1) (0 1 2 3 4)]
09:14	stuartsierra	`split-with` divides a collection into two lists, one before the predicate was true, and one after
09:15	Bronsa	craigglennie: use (comp vals group-by) to get what you want
09:15	stuartsierra	,(split-with #(= :split %) [1 2 3 :split 4 5 6 :split 7 8 9])
09:15	clojurebot	[() (1 2 3 :split 4 ...)]
09:15	stuartsierra	bah, whatever
09:15	clgv	or `group-by` with destructuring ^^
09:15	stuartsierra	that's what it does
09:16	stuartsierra	,(split-with keyword? [:a :b :c 1 2 3 :d :e :f])
09:16	clojurebot	[(:a :b :c) (1 2 3 :d :e ...)]
09:16	clgv	,(let [{negative true, others false} (group-by neg? (range -5 5))] [negative others])
09:16	clojurebot	[[-5 -4 -3 -2 -1] [0 1 2 3 4]]
09:16	craigglennie	stuartsierra: ahh, I see… I guess that makes sense, given it’s called “split-with” and not “group-by”
09:17	clgv	,(let [{even true, others false} (group-by even? (range -5 5))] [even others])
09:17	clojurebot	[[-4 -2 0 2 4] [-5 -3 -1 1 3]]
09:17	clgv	craigglennie: ^^
09:17	stuartsierra	The docstring says exactly what it does. "Returns a vector of [(take-while pred coll) (drop-while pred coll)]"
09:18	clgv	so actually the better name would include a "first" ;)
09:18	the-kenny	Anyone using weasel with the latest clojurescript/cider/cider-nrepl releases? It seems to "forget" the current namespace when evaluating stuff. Always drops me back into the user namespace in the repl.
09:20	craigglennie	clgv: thanks, your solution makes sense
09:35	the-kenny	hm, cider just sets nrepl-buffer-ns when evaluating cider-repl-set-ns. I wonder if either weasel or austin cache the current ns somewhere else. I wonder if cider should emit a call to `in-ns' in such situations.
09:36	martinklepsch	how big is the memory overhead of having a few million maps vs. a vector just containing the values?
09:36	martinklepsch	(stored in one big set)
09:36	clojurebot	Excuse me?
09:39	dumptruckman	hmm, can someone tell me why nothing prints on this? http://pastie.org/9610294
09:40	dumptruckman	shouldn't seq? return false if the collection is empty?
09:41	joegallo	http://clojure.github.io/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/seq
09:41	dumptruckman	oh, i just want seq
09:41	dumptruckman	switching to that and it still doesn't print
09:43	clgv	martinklepsch: you might be force to drop down to java arrays (or specific tuple classes) depending on the scenario - I had problems with millions of maps that needed to fit into 8GB at the same time
09:44	martinklepsch	clgv: I'm fine with 16GB but it's tight
09:45	clgv	martinklepsch: that's why I hated the incater approach to use persistent maps for rows
09:46	dumptruckman	ok so
09:46	dumptruckman	http://pastie.org/9610317
09:46	dumptruckman	it still doesn't print
09:46	dumptruckman	and if it's not printing, how is it not stuck in an infinite loop?
09:48	clgv	dumptruckman: it fails with an exception since you call `pop` on a lazy-seq
09:49	dumptruckman	oh?
09:49	clgv	dumptruckman: https://www.refheap.com/91019
09:49	sg2002	Hello. Does anyone here uses that breakpoint macro from the Joy Of Clojure book? In the version they provided there's no way to exit the debugger. Maybe someone has an updated one?
09:50	sg2002	Decided to check here before doing this myself.
09:50	dumptruckman	clgv: noooo i wanted to solve it myself D:
09:51	clgv	dumptruckman: I only fixed your strange usage of range there
09:51	clgv	dumptruckman: you can still try the version without loop-recur that's based on range
09:52	clgv	sg2002: afaik that wont work in an nrepl setup anyway
09:52	clgv	sg2002: since handling in and out is different there
09:53	dumptruckman	clgv: yes, i thought of a way to do it without recurring but this exercise is specifically for recursion
09:55	dumptruckman	something like (defn factorial [n] (reduce 1 (range 1 (inc n)))
09:55	clgv	dumptruckman: but you should have seen the exception in your previous version
09:55	clgv	dumptruckman: almost ;)
09:55	dumptruckman	koan is not printing any exceptions
09:56	clgv	that's bad. so you should probably try out in your own repl to see those
09:56	dumptruckman	oh right
09:57	dumptruckman	(defn factorial [n] (reduce * 1 (range 1 (inc n)))
09:57	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
09:58	dumptruckman	+)
09:59	dumptruckman	how come you can't pop a lazy seq?
09:59	clgv	dumptruckman: because it is not a stack
10:00	clgv	dumptruckman: lists and lazy seqs can only be read from front to back
10:00	clgv	dumptruckman: you can use `first` and `rest` or `next`
10:00	clgv	but the lazy seq was not appropriate in that implementation anyway
10:03	atyz	clgv: you should be able to use peek too
10:05	clgv	,(peek (range 10))
10:05	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.LazySeq cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentStack>
10:05	clgv	atyz: nope, both are specifically for stacks
10:05	clgv	atyz: e.g. vector
10:09	justin_smith	,(peek (list 0 1 2 3 4)) ; or list
10:09	clojurebot	0
10:10	clgv	,(pop (list 0 1 2 3 4))
10:10	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4)
10:11	dumptruckman	clgv: i see
10:11	clgv	yeah well stacks with different ends ^^
10:11	dumptruckman	so just not lazy seq
10:12	atyz	Ah yeah, I know I had used it with lists before, I must have just assumed it was lazy ;)
10:12	clgv	dumptruckman: you could also restrict to first, rest in the beginning. when preserving types is important you might need those other functions
10:13	clgv	atyz: though there is actually no good reason why peek/pop don't work on lazy sequences when they do in lists.
10:13	atyz	,(peek (range 0 3))
10:13	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.LazySeq cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentStack>
10:13	justin_smith	,(peek (into () (range 0 3)))
10:13	clojurebot	2
10:13	atyz	clgv: Thats what I thought, I was wrong I guess
10:14	justin_smith	I have never done into () before
10:14	clgv	,(peek (cons 1 (cons 2 nil)))
10:14	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Cons cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentStack>
10:14	pyrtsa	,(peek '(0 1 2 3))
10:14	clojurebot	0
10:14	pyrtsa	,(into () (range 3))
10:14	clojurebot	(2 1 0)
10:14	clgv	nice :D
10:14	clgv	,(list* (range 3))
10:14	clojurebot	(0 1 2)
10:14	justin_smith	,(peek (reverse (range 3)))
10:14	clojurebot	2
10:15	clgv	,(peek (list* (range 3)))
10:15	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.ChunkedCons cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentStack>
10:15	justin_smith	(def reverse (partial into ()))
10:15	clgv	muhaha
10:15	justin_smith	,(peek (apply list* (range 3)))
10:15	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long>
10:15	clgv	a rule of thumb to be safe: use peek and pop only with vectors...
10:16	pyrtsa	clgv: Well, and with clojure.lang.PersistentQueue.
10:16	clgv	just made up. but seems reasonable when you consider the above examples
10:16	pyrtsa	,(peek (conj clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY 1 2 3))
10:16	clojurebot	1
10:16	clgv	pyrtsa: a queue implements ipersistentstack? TypeMismatchException!
10:17	justin_smith	pyrtsa: I was going to mention that one :)
10:17	pyrtsa	justin_smith: _o/
10:17	justin_smith	clgv: and it works on list, list* does not return a list
10:17	clgv	,(pop (conj clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY 1 2 3))
10:17	clojurebot	#<PersistentQueue clojure.lang.PersistentQueue@402>
10:17	justin_smith	(inc pyrtsa)
10:17	lazybot	⇒ 8
10:17	pyrtsa	,(seq (pop (conj clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY 1 2 3)))
10:17	clojurebot	(2 3)
10:17	clgv	woah that's awful naming. Stack != Queue from an algorithmic point of view
10:18	justin_smith	,(peek (pop (conj clojure.lang.PersistentQueue/EMPTY 1 2 3)))
10:18	clojurebot	2
10:18	clgv	~guards
10:18	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
10:18	pyrtsa	peek, pop and conj are all quite overloaded names in Clojure. That's their nature
10:18	pyrtsa	Well, into as well.
10:18	clgv	pyrtsa: I comlain about the interface that powers peek and pop ;)
10:18	clgv	*complain
10:19	pyrtsa	Nod.
10:26	verma	when I do a defrecord, how do I make sure that the created record has certain fields in it with some defaults, e.g. I am creating this ModelCache record and I want to have a :state property in it that's an atom?
10:26	verma	so far it seems to me like I need to accept it as one of the parameters to (ModelCache. (atom {}))
10:26	verma	s/to/like
10:27	verma	I want to create a ModelCache instance, but make sure that all of them have an internal key named :state or :__state or whatever
10:28	clgv	verma: write a constructor function for it
10:28	verma	clgv can't find any examples
10:29	clgv	verma: just a plain clojure function that creates the defrecord and initializes it
10:29	verma	oh ok ok
10:29	verma	clgv like (defn make-cache [] (assoc (ModelCache.) :state (atom {})))
10:29	verma	?
10:29	verma	nice
10:31	clgv	verma: yeah. you could also use (map->ModelCache {:state (atom {})}) - but thats probably a matter of taste
10:31	clgv	,(defrecord ModelCache [state])
10:31	clojurebot	sandbox.ModelCache
10:32	clgv	,(defn make-cache [] (map->ModelCache {:state (atom {})})
10:32	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
10:32	clgv	,(defn make-cache [] (map->ModelCache {:state (atom {})}))
10:32	clojurebot	#'sandbox/make-cache
10:32	clgv	,(make-cache)
10:32	clojurebot	#sandbox.ModelCache{:state #<Atom@1921250: {}>}
10:32	verma	nice
10:35	verma	(inc clgv)
10:35	lazybot	⇒ 28
10:43	dysfun	(into {} (when (map? a) (filter ... seems like a nice idiom for default-to-{} when writing map filters
10:45	notofi	Hi, does someone know why with enlive the h2 tag is not inside the a tag with this example? (html/html-snippet "<a> <h2> Foo </h2> </a>") ->> ({:tag :a, :attrs nil, :content (" ")} {:tag :h2, :attrs nil, :content (" Foo ")} " ")
10:54	xeqi	notofi: enlive uses tagsoup with closes the <a> when it hits <h2>. https://github.com/cgrand/enlive/issues/110
10:54	clgv	dysfun: you want to filter map entries? I'd do that with reduce-kv and transient
10:56	dysfun	reduce-kv is handy too, transient, not so much given the data sizes we're talking about
10:57	mikepence	hi clojurians :)
10:57	clgv	dysfun: into uses transients if possible so that point is through ;)
10:57	tbaldridge	hi mikepence :-)
10:57	TEttinger	clourers and clojurists too
10:57	mikepence	yesterday was my first day actually producing a bit of code in clojure for the day job (Living Social)
10:57	TEttinger	*clojurers
10:57	mikepence	I am wondering where the community hangs out, and is tolerant of newb questions. :)
10:57	justin_smith	clojurmancers
10:58	clgv	haha awakening the dead with lisp
10:58	mikepence	ah, that is better
10:58	TEttinger	*I've been up for 17 of the last 24 hours, give me a break
10:58	justin_smith	this place is definitely tolerant of newb questions
10:58	dysfun	clgv: clojure does a lot of smart things so i don't have to
10:58	mikepence	I knew technomancy back in the early rails days
10:58	mikepence	awesome
10:58	xeqi	here and the clojure mailing list are both good places for newb questions
10:58	mikepence	is the clojure mailing list a google group?
10:58	justin_smith	yes
10:58	mikepence	thx
10:59	mikepence	I am coming from ruby, and super-excited by everything about clojure
10:59	clgv	dysfun: that's a trouble some attitude in general since there are usually several choices in clojure where you should choose the appropriate one...
11:00	dysfun	clgv: practicalities depend on a few things though. i know the size of the data will never be very large so i'm not concerned about performance implications
11:00	TEttinger	mikepence, clojure is a wonderful language and I imagine it would come easily to a ruby pro
11:01	mikepence	I have also had the awesome tutelage of ghadi shaban
11:04	TEttinger	so here's a nice artificial example of some of the strengths of clojure.
11:04	TEttinger	,(take-while #(> (second %) 1) (sort-by (comp - val) (frequencies "the king james bible")))
11:04	clojurebot	([\space 3] [\e 3] [\b 2] [\i 2])
11:04	knosys	hi !
11:04	TEttinger	that finds all characters in the string "the king james bible" that show up more than 1 time. there are other ways to do it that are better, but i wanted to show comp and sort-by
11:05	grandy___	quick question: lein doesn't appear to be loading the files in src, so i have to load them manually and specifiy the paths (in the repl)... is there a way to have it load them automatically when i start the repl?
11:06	TEttinger	grandy___, have you set a :main namespace in project.clj ?
11:06	TEttinger	not sure quite what causes that
11:06	grandy___	TEttinger: i have not
11:07	alejandro1	grandy___: src should be on your loadpath, so all you should need to do is require them. the issue could be the naming of the files not matching what the namespaces are expected to be
11:07	alejandro1	I know that's bitten me a few times
11:07	grandy___	alejandro1: hmm how can i tell what it's expecting?
11:08	justin_smith	grandy___: do any namespaces have - in the name?
11:08	alejandro1	so like src/example/cool_thing.clj => example.cool-thing
11:08	TEttinger	ah, that one.
11:08	grandy___	alejandro1: i don't believe so
11:08	justin_smith	grandy___: what does your require invocation in the repl look like?
11:09	grandy___	justin_smith: well, i tried to use (in-ns 'myproject.namespace)
11:09	grandy___	justin_smith: and then it couldn't find it until I typed (load "myproject/filename")
11:09	alejandro1	grandy___: also, does `lein classpath` have your src directory in the first few entries?
11:10	justin_smith	grandy___: that's not how it owrks
11:10	justin_smith	grandy___: (require 'myproject.namespace)
11:10	grandy___	alejandro1: it does
11:10	justin_smith	that will load it up
11:11	grandy___	justin_smith: indeed it does
11:11	grandy___	thanks everyone!
11:11	justin_smith	grandy___: none of your source files are (or should be) automatically loaded in a repl. They must be required first.
11:12	grandy___	justin_smith: ok i guess that makes sense...
11:13	justin_smith	grandy___: there may be a project.clj trick for making the repl auto-require your core namespace (which then requires the rest)
11:13	grandy___	always nice when the problem was my logical reasoning :)
11:14	grandy___	can anyone advise me on the best practice for using a repl with cljs?
11:14	justin_smith	grandy___: well, it's more about the conventions and expectations of the language - Clojure is often logical, but not so much so that you can figure things out by first principles :)
11:14	grandy___	:)
11:17	mikepence	so structured editing is interesting
11:17	mikepence	I am using cursive
11:22	dumptruckman	what's that function that puts a string inbetween elements of a collection
11:23	schmir	dumptruckman: clojure.string/join
11:24	justin_smith	or interpose, if you want the result to be a collection too
11:24	justin_smith	(interpose "," (range 10))
11:24	justin_smith	,(interpose "," (range 10))
11:24	clojurebot	(0 "," 1 "," 2 ...)
11:25	dumptruckman	oh
11:25	dumptruckman	so join does the same thing but turns it into a single string?
11:26	alejandro1	dumptruckman: yup
11:26	alejandro1	,(clojure.string/join "," (range 10))
11:26	clojurebot	"0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9"
11:26	dumptruckman	cool, thanks
11:34	verma	can't get :notify-command to work for lein-cljsbuild, anyone tried it/
11:35	verma	just saying :notify-command ["pwd"] .. should at least print the current working directory after every build
11:36	verma	ok worked this time :P
11:46	mikepence	I am not sure if I love structural editing yet, but obviously worth getting to know
11:50	jcsims	mikepence: you will
11:51	TimMc	mikepence: You'll become addicted to it soon enough.
11:54	mikepence	there has been some discusson on the cursive list about what non-emacs-inspired keyboard bindings to use on os x for structural editing commands
11:54	alejandro1	mikepence: is structural editing the same thing as paredit in emacs?
11:58	mikepence	yes, same thing
12:41	magopian	are people using the (. foo -bar) notation to stay in line with the (.. foo -bar -baz) notation?
12:42	magopian	because at first, i found the (foo.-bar) notation much shorter and readable, but maybe it's just me?
12:43	xeqi	I thought (.-bar foo) was the prefered
12:43	magopian	ah, there's also this notation, i forgot
12:43	magopian	(foo.-bar works, right?)
12:44	magopian	i'm looking at some code from https://github.com/Prismatic/om-tools#mixin-tools
12:45	magopian	there's (. owner -intervals), then (.. owner -intervals (map js/clearInterval))
12:45	magopian	btw, would (map .clearInterval) just work the same?
12:47	hiredman	.clearInterval is not a symbol that is bound to a function object in the environment
12:48	hiredman	(.clearInterval foo) is syntactic sugar for (. foo (clearInterval)), where . is the interop special form
12:49	hiredman	it is not calling .clearInterval as a function
12:49	magopian	I see
12:49	magopian	so (foo.clearInterval) wouldn't work either?
12:50	Bronsa	magopian: it will probably work in cljs for reasons, but don't use it
12:50	Bronsa	it's not clojure syntax
12:50	magopian	understood ;)
12:50	magopian	so the canonical way of writing is it (. foo clearInterval) or (. foo -className) (or whatever the property name is)
12:51	Bronsa	magopian: (.-bar foo) if it's a field, (.bar foo) if it's a method call
12:51	Bronsa	or (. foo -bar) if you prefer
12:51	magopian	ok ;)
12:51	magopian	thanks a lot Bronsa and hiredman
12:51	Bronsa	but it's rare to use . directly
13:05	andyf	For anyone out there who has dealt with type tags in Clojure a bit, I've written a few paragraphs about them, and ones that the next version of Eastwood will warn about. Interested in corrections, comments, etc. if you do read it: https://github.com/jonase/eastwood/blob/master/README.next.md#wrong-tag---an-incorrect-type-tag
13:06	andyf	Note: Eastwood 0.1.5 has not been released yet. Any comments you have can be filed as an issue on Github
13:07	ambrosebs	andyf: looks reasonable to me
13:07	Bronsa	andyf: I just read it and it looks fine to me -- an aside note, is this https://github.com/jonase/eastwood/blob/master/README.next.md#known-libraries-eastwood-has-difficulty-with still true? the bit about data.fressian/test.generative
13:07	andyf	Bronsa: not sure. Let me check the output from my latest test runs...
13:08	Bronsa	andyf: I believe they should now get :wrong-tag warnings rather than fail
13:10	andyf	I'm getting exception with latest Eastwood and latest of data.fressian/test.generative
13:11	andyf	because of weird tags
13:12	andyf	Eastwood still has tools.reader 0.8.4, in case that might have any bearing on it.
13:13	m1dnight	Is there a way to recur an enclosing loop/function? I found recur-to but it's a proof of concept atm
13:14	Bronsa	andyf: shouldn't be relevant, I'll look into it later, I'm pretty sure eastwood should be able to handle them now (my guess is that the wrong-tag handler needs some tweaking :)
13:15	dbasch	m1dnight: I hope there isn't a way :)
13:15	m1dnight	Well, it's be nice tbh
13:16	m1dnight	I need it to something like recur loop until condition is met, then recur function
13:16	andyf	Bronsa: Thanks for all the quick bug-turnarounds lately. Feels like December & January over again, albeit with fewer bugs :) Note: TGEN-5 patch you suggested has not been committed, but I guess you plan to make t.a(.j) changes that avoid throwing exception even without that test.generative change.
13:16	m1dnight	ill just have to rethink my code i guess
13:29	zenoli	So, I need to consume a continuous stream of HTTP data and do something with each chunk. Recommendations for the best library?
13:29	zenoli	I've been trying with http-kit's client, but it looks like it might be trying to read in the entire (infinite) stream before returning anything.
13:30	Bronsa	andyf: yeah it looks like I forgot to handle a tag validation path with :validate/wrong-tag-handler, I'll fix that later & data.fressian/test.generative et all should work & just print a warning
13:31	andyf	Bronsa: Sounds good. Let me know and I'll give it a whirl.
13:32	Bronsa	andyf: later might mean tomorrow, depending on whether or not I can stay awake long enough to fix it :P
13:33	andyf	Bronsa: No rush on my part. I'm hoping to release 0.1.5 of Eastwood within a week or two, just to get the new linters out there.
13:34	bbyler_t_	hello! i'm running into the error "goog is not defined" when trying to boot up .. what's a good way to get around that?
13:35	bbyler_t_	(optimizations: whitespace)...
13:36	nullptr	bbyler_t_: make sure you're including the goog base.js in your html file
13:38	bbyler_t_	hmm...is there by any chance a cdn for base.js nullptr ?
13:39	bbyler_t_	i could do a quick download of closure, but just curious
13:39	nullptr	no, because you wouldn't (well, _shouldn't_) use base.js in production
13:39	nullptr	base.js should get generated somewhere in your project space by cljsbuild
13:39	nullptr	cd project-root; find . -name base.js
13:41	bbyler_t_	ah of course! thanks nullptr,
14:11	edbond	async question: if I have a (chan 10000), put! some values and close! chan. Values that are not consumed yet will be destroyed?
14:11	tbaldridge	edbond: no, data is not destroyed by close!. close! events happen "after" any other puts
14:12	edbond	tbaldridge, thanks, will have a better sleep now. This question bothered me for some time.
14:13	edbond	so it's safe to close after all put!s, no need to define :end-of-stream or something
14:13	tbaldridge	edbond: right, you should never need a signal value like that
14:15	mi6x3m	Is there a function like map which ignores the result?
14:15	mi6x3m	useful for side effects
14:16	ToBeReplaced	justin_smith: do you know if this ever got resolved: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/21706497/why-is-my-clojure-project-slow-on-raspberry-pi
14:16	tbaldridge	,(doc doseq)
14:16	clojurebot	"([seq-exprs & body]); Repeatedly executes body (presumably for side-effects) with bindings and filtering as provided by \"for\". Does not retain the head of the sequence. Returns nil."
14:16	mi6x3m	(f tbaldridge: I don't need bindings
14:16	ToBeReplaced	then dorun
14:17	mi6x3m	ToBeReplaced: I need to invoke a function with every element of the seq
14:18	mi6x3m	(something f seq)
14:18	ToBeReplaced	(->> coll (map f) dorun)
14:19	mi6x3m	ToBeReplaced: the problem is that my sequence is large
14:19	mi6x3m	and map constructs a new sequence
14:19	dbasch	mi6x3m: why do you need to realize your sequence for side effects?
14:19	ToBeReplaced	people often use (doseq [x coll] (f x)) because it better matches the execution paradigm -> you want to side effect, in order, so it's actually imperative
14:20	mi6x3m	dbasch: it's a bit hard to explain but there's also another way
14:20	mi6x3m	ToBeReplaced: yes, a good compromise
14:20	mi6x3m	it's nicely explicit
14:21	justin_smith	ToBeReplaced: hmm - are you trying to do audio with clojure on a pi?
14:22	ToBeReplaced	justin_smith: yes; i'm actually trying to do much more and getting a little frustrated since i lack the systems knowledge to debug the performance issue
14:22	ToBeReplaced	i reduced down to just playback a file as in the stackoverflow question and am seeing skipping as well
14:22	justin_smith	ToBeReplaced: the behavior described in the question indicates that either there is too much work being done in the processing thread for the tiny CPU, or, more likely, lack of CPU-cache line coherency in the processing task
14:23	tbaldridge	ToBeReplaced: the rpi is a very, very slow machine. I'm surprised people get a JVM running on it at all.
14:23	justin_smith	ToBeReplaced: so if you just play back a file, and nothing else, you see skipping? What if you make a minimal java program that plays the file?
14:24	hiredman	pffft
14:25	justin_smith	ToBeReplaced: reconsidering my response to the question before, it could be the context switch from the audio data to the clojure data between buffer writes that is killing perf
14:25	ToBeReplaced	thanks guys... i don't have a size or power restriction, i just need some hardware IO, so i think i might just run a more powerful computer and a usb gpio chip, like the FTDI FT245R
14:27	ToBeReplaced	justing_smith: yeah i was using AudioSystem/getClip and AudioSystem/getInputStream... i didn't override any of the defaults
14:28	m1dnight	Ugh, I'm stuck with my actors :p
14:28	justin_smith	ToBeReplaced: hmm, come to think of it, that might mean that none of clojure was competing for the cache line, so it's just the device / the quality of the jvm on that device to blame
14:28	m1dnight	I guess it could write a part in Java.. :p
14:28	ToBeReplaced	i need to ship somewhat soon... and i'm undecided between a) run down the pi rabbit hole and see what i can do... b) upgrade to something like beaglebone black... c) run a more powerful and learn the shenanigans for serial gpio over usb
14:31	justin_smith	ToBeReplaced: I've had excellent luck with using a csound process for audio processing controlled by a clojure process (either using the OSC protocol over UDP on localhost, or using stdio). csound runs very smoothly on tiny devices. I've done spectral manipulation and resynthesis without glitches on arm devices weaker than an rpi using csound.
14:33	justin_smith	of course supercollider (the audio backend for overtone) has a nicer api, but it will not run nicely on an rpi
14:33	ToBeReplaced	justin_smith: good to know... yeah, it's odd... i was able to run sphinx (voice recognition) without hassle... option d) rewrite in python
14:33	hiredman	ToBeReplaced: which jvm are you using?
14:33	ToBeReplaced	yeah i tried reading in keyboard notes via overtone and it creeped along
14:33	ToBeReplaced	openjdk8
14:34	ToBeReplaced	pidora, openjdk8, uberjar aot compiled
14:34	hiredman	ToBeReplaced: sure, but is it using shark or whatever?
14:35	hiredman	shark is the jvms portable non-optimizing compiler, basically, until somewhat recently it was the only thing available on the pi
14:35	ToBeReplaced	ah i didn't know that... is there a command line check?
14:36	hiredman	dunno, on systems that use apt it tends to be part of the package name when you install a jvm
14:37	ToBeReplaced	ohhhhhh i think that's what i'm on... the package name doesn't say that... but java -version gives me: OpenJDK Zero VM... gotta mean non-optimizing? (build 25.5-b02, interpreted mode)
14:37	hiredman	I've used clojure on my beaglebone for various things (home automation, simple robots) using oracles jdk and it has worked just fine
14:37	hiredman	yeah zero
14:38	hiredman	http://openjdk.java.net/projects/zero/
14:39	ToBeReplaced	hiredman: thanks that's really interesting... i'll see if oracle gives me anything better... that would be the triple fistpump success story
14:39	hiredman	http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/articles/java/raspberrypi-1704896.html has some instructions that may be adaptable
15:04	mikerod	There was a cool webapp that I found one day where you could search for clojure function usages across many of the known popular libraries.
15:04	mikerod	Now I can find this with a search, my bookmarks, history, etc
15:04	mikerod	:(
15:04	mikerod	Does anyone know the link to what I'm describing
15:06	mikerod	?*
15:07	dbasch	mikerod: you mean http://crossclj.info/ ?
15:08	mikerod	dbasch: yes!
15:08	mikerod	(inc dbasch)
15:08	lazybot	⇒ 12
15:08	mikerod	Thanks, I couldn't figure out how to refind that....
15:09	mikerod	Turns out if I would have though "search clojure ecosystem"
15:09	mikerod	I would have found a reddit
15:09	mikerod	that would hvae linked to this :P
15:45	michaelr524	hmm
15:45	michaelr524	so, multiple cider sessions - is it supposed to just work - I don't get it from the documentation..
15:45	michaelr524	?
15:46	michaelr524	do i have to be an alien for this emacs voodoo to ever make sense to me? :)
15:47	michaelr524	_everything_ works exactly the way you wouldn't expect it work
15:56	m1dnight	Ugh, I need some help guys. I've been breaking my head over this the entire day, I have something that shows what I want but now how I want it.
15:56	m1dnight	Does nyone have a minute?
15:56	clojurebot	I don't understand.
15:57	michaelr524	m1dnight: shoot
15:57	cbp	Does anyone who knows cider.el know with what the 'cider-find-or-create-repl-buffer' function was replaced?
15:58	m1dnight	I have a thread Y, and that thread has to look over a queue. I can say in that thread "get element X" and then that thread has to look at a ref/atom/.. and see if it has an element in it. If not, it has to block until that ref/atom has one. If it never gets one, the function never returns.
15:58	m1dnight	I have this, and it works. The point is, that function that blocks util an element is available spins and thus uses A LOT of cpu power, which I don't want.
15:59	m1dnight	In java, i'd go about using .wait() and .notify(), but that's not really possible in clj, afaik. So i'm not sure how to go about it..
15:59	michaelr524	m1dnight: sounds like a task for core.async - have you looked at it?
15:59	m1dnight	http://pastebin.com/0Z3e6eW1 <- This is what I have at the moment but not really good
16:00	m1dnight	Hmm, I was reading that a few hours ago and that looked promising indeed. It's CSP, right?
16:00	m1dnight	I'll have a look at it :)
16:00	m1dnight	Thnx
16:01	michaelr524	m1dnight: also, I see there that you are importing LinkedBlockingQueue
16:01	michaelr524	Why don't you use it?
16:02	michaelr524	m1dnight: check this also: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure.core/seque
16:05	dbasch	m1dnight: btw, (if (not (nil? match)) ...) is almost the same as (if match ...)
16:05	dbasch	the only difference is that the first will return true when match is boolean false
16:08	m1dnight	michaelr524: Yeah, that was for an implementation I already had. I constructed a minimal example to figure out how to go about implementing it in the code I already have. That one involves macros and stuff so not comfy to start experimenting in it.
16:09	m1dnight	Perhaps I'll use a Java object to do it and use .wait and .notify. I'm not really sure yet
16:10	michaelr524	m1dnight: usually the most intimidating clojure code is the most gratifying when you finally understand it :)
16:12	m1dnight	Well, that's very much true though! :)
16:13	m1dnight	I was happy to accept to challenge to implement almost all concurrency models in clojure for my thesis
16:13	m1dnight	"Actors are going to be the easiest so i'll start with that"
16:13	m1dnight	the challenge*
16:14	justin_smith	m1dnight: maybe you mistook the simplicity of a description of actors for simplicity of implementation?
16:16	ToxicFrog	Yeah, speaking as someone who has implemented actor-like APIs on two different platforms, they're a lot easier to describe than they are to implement robustly.
16:16	m1dnight	justin_smith: I did, as well as my promotors :p
16:17	m1dnight	it's not a lack of a feature, it's a feature something something
16:29	michaelr524	who is using cider with emacs-live here?
16:30	m1dnight	i'm using cider and emacs, no clue what emacs-live is though
16:30	michaelr524	m1dnight: C-c C-p does it popup a window or somtehing for you?
16:30	tbaldridge	michaelr524: I've used it on and off, sadly I've found it too heavy for my day-to-day use.
16:30	m1dnight	michaelr524: Undefined
16:31	tbaldridge	...so I now use Cursive. Sad when a Java IDE is more responsive than emacs.
16:31	michaelr524	cursive is great - once the new machine arrives by mail I might switch to it :)
16:31	michaelr524	I'm currently on a T60
16:32	ro_st	tbaldridge: admittedly very tempted to try cursive, really enjoy seeing it in your vids. but i'm just so used to my keybinds in emacs now
16:32	michaelr524	C-c C-p is described as "Evaluate the form preceding point and pretty-print the result in a popup buffer."
16:33	michaelr524	but instead of poping up something it just displays a one line buffer at the bottom of the screen - a bit similar to the "echo area" of C-c C-e
16:33	ro_st	when i use C-c C-p i get the popup buffer
16:34	michaelr524	I suspect it's the combination of cider with emacs-live..
16:34	tuft	hello clojureverse
16:34	michaelr524	I really like the fact that cursive has a clojure debugger
16:34	noonian	i found the emacs setup from brave clojure to be pretty nice, and i'd heard previously from people who tried emacs-live that it felt a little bloated
16:34	michaelr524	it saves me lot's of time once in a while
16:34	noonian	hello tuft
16:35	ro_st	i use rkneufeld's gist with some addons. very light and simple
16:35	michaelr524	ro_st: url
16:35	ro_st	https://gist.github.com/rkneufeld/5126926
16:36	michaelr524	thanks
16:36	ro_st	its out of date because nrepl.el -> cider
16:39	erdos	hello everyone. i need some help with defrecords, please. i would like to type annotate an argument of my function, but when the function is called, i get the following exception: "erdos.ps.PSto" cannot be cast to "erdos.ps.PSto". the type names do match here, howerver the `instanceof?` call on the value of argument also fails. it is like there are two versions of the type with the same name, despite being defined only once. thank you
16:39	tbaldrid_	erdos: are you doing this at the REPL?
16:39	hiredman	oh, well it isn't defined only once
16:40	hiredman	everytime clojure runs a defrecord it defines the type again, so if you are loading the namespace code more than once then there you go
16:40	ro_st	yup. restart jvm and see if the problem persists
16:41	michaelr524	tbaldridge: oh, btw - could you share your key bindings for cursive?
16:41	tbaldridge	you don't really have to do that, just re-eval the functions that use the record
16:42	erdos	tbaldrid_: yes, on the repl, even after completely restarting it.
16:42	tbaldridge	well hiredman is right, something is re-evaling your defrecord
16:46	erdos	tbaldridge: so you mean that requiring an ns twice from two differenc places creates the type twice?
16:46	tbaldridge	erdos: no, that's fine, I mean either two defrecords, or evaling a defrecord twice
16:46	mi6x3m	does anyone know how to easily get the post parameters out of the body with httpkit?
16:46	hiredman	or requiring with :reload and :reload-all
16:48	hiredman	or if you are aot compiling and have a generate class file sitting on disk
16:48	hiredman	that can cause these issues
16:48	hiredman	a generated
16:48	erdos	hiredman: "lein clean" does remove these classes, right?
16:49	hiredman	erdos: I forget, it seems like it should
16:49	hiredman	if are aot compiling, stop
16:49	hiredman	if you are
16:52	justin_smith	mi6x3m: are you using ring?
16:52	mi6x3m	justin_smith: no
16:52	justin_smith	any particular reason not to use ring? because it's easy to get the post parameters with a ring middleware
16:53	justin_smith	and there is a ring adaptor for http-kit
16:53	amalloy	it's probably pretty easy with http-kit too, justin_smith, we just don't happen to know it
16:53	mi6x3m	justin_smith: because this is a demo application with nothing related to a web module :)
16:53	mi6x3m	I just use httpkit to demonstrate something
16:54	justin_smith	so http, but not at all web?
16:54	mi6x3m	justin_smith: yes :)
16:54	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
16:54	amalloy	(inc clojurebot)
16:54	lazybot	⇒ 46
16:54	mi6x3m	justin_smith: meh, I'll just parse them myself
16:54	justin_smith	there is an apache library for that sort of thing
16:55	amalloy	mi6x3m: it sounds like you are making things harder for yourself because the goal is "simple", as if you believe the default choices are hard to use but parsing http requests by hand is easy
16:55	justin_smith	amalloy: I think more likely http-kit gives you a stream for the body, and lets you leverage the various libs available for parsing or utilizing it
16:56	mi6x3m	yes it's just (slurp :encoding "UTF-8") in my case
16:57	justin_smith	well, that gets the text, but doesn't do the parsing - probably easier to hand the stream to the apache.data.codec or whatever it was called rather than construct a string then parse it by hand
16:59	mi6x3m	justin_smith: I can't seem to find that library :/
17:07	justin_smith	https://github.com/clojure/data.codec I misremembered, it's clojure/data.codec and it uses apache commons codec
17:07	justin_smith	erm, never mind, that's not it
17:12	borkdude	is http kit now seen as the future replacement for jetty also for local development?
17:12	amalloy	i can't imagine why. i'd just use jetty
17:13	amalloy	or aleph/netty if asynchrony is important to me
17:13	noonian	well, i always use http-kit now just because of its support for websockets and stuff
17:13	noonian	but i had already stopped using the ring leiningen plugins in development so lack of tooling support didn't affect me
17:15	dbasch	when I see questions like this one, I just want to answer "use clojure" http://stackoverflow.com/questions/26149732/how-to-sort-an-arraylist-using-two-sorts#26149840
17:16	mi6x3m	justin_smith: indeed i'll just use form-decode in ring.util
17:16	amalloy	dbasch: it was tempting to answer http://stackoverflow.com/q/26129172/625403 with "use haskell"
17:17	dbasch	I'm tempted to upvote that answer just because it's long!
17:17	amalloy	and you'd upvote "use haskell" because it's short! everybody wins!
17:18	m1dnight	https://github.com/puniverse/pulsar/blob/master/src/main/clojure/co/paralleluniverse/pulsar/actors.clj#L479 This is the receive code for Pulsar. Why on earth would I be able to do it with less :p
17:19	tbaldridge	m1dnight: you don't need all that crap for actors, you only need it if you're trying to duplicate erlang processes
17:20	tbaldridge	m1dnight: the stuff here is way simpler http://www.dalnefre.com/wp/
17:20	m1dnight	tbaldridge: Yeah, I kinda have to duplicate the actor model in clojure.
17:20	justin_smith	tbaldridge: it's like the difference between having a digital movie as accurate as film, vs perceptibly identical to film (the latter being orders of magnitude larger a task)
17:20	m1dnight	I might be better off doing it in Java though. I havent thought it through yet.
17:21	tbaldridge	that's kindof what I'm saying, Erlang isn't "the actor model" it's "the actor model plus a ton of stuff that complicates everything"
17:21	m1dnight	Oh, okay that's what you meant
17:21	m1dnight	Sorry I can't really brain properly anymore :p
17:22	noonian	the actor model is really very simple
17:22	tbaldridge	http://www.dalnefre.com/wp/2010/06/actors-in-clojure-why-not/ <- the Blog's author vs comments Rich made about actors
17:22	tbaldridge	for the record, I agree with Rich when it comes to actors, but that post points out some really important misconceptions people have about actors
17:27	m1dnight	That was a very very very good read tbaldridge
17:28	m1dnight	However, I senses a bit of passive agression in Rich's statements, or is it just me?
17:28	muraiki	I'm trying to choose between erlang and clojure for concurrency currently, so that article should be a big help. thanks
17:29	m1dnight	I had a LOT of fun writing Erlang! :) But clojure has a more modern feel to it. I can't put it into words :p
17:30	devn	how do people just run a .clj file as a script (basically relying on whatever clojure version that's bundled with lein)?
17:30	technomancy	devn: lein run -m clojure.main/main myfile.clj
17:30	technomancy	(is one way)
17:30	gfredericks	does anybody know if core.matrix is extensible wrt scalars? or does a new scalar type require a new matrix impl?
17:31	gfredericks	what I want in particular are complex scalars
17:31	technomancy	gfredericks: have you tried using SBT?
17:31	devn	technomancy: thanks -- didn't want to have to grab lein-oneoff or something
17:32	muraiki	m1dnight: that's good to know, and also the sense that I got. I've also considered elixir, but I'm not sure if it's ready yet, and it seems like I'd also have to learn erlang anyways to really take advantage of the ecosystem
17:32	technomancy	devn: the downside is that will work differently if invoked from a project directory
17:33	gfredericks	technomancy: haven't heard of that
17:33	gfredericks	nor is google helpful
17:34	hiredman	gfredericks: scala joke
17:34	hiredman	(scala build tool)
17:34	gfredericks	it all makes sense now
17:34	gfredericks	I should expect technomancy to make jokes about build tools.
17:34	technomancy	lots of complicated scalars there!
17:35	technomancy	complex
17:35	technomancy	whatever
17:35	technomancy	complected
17:35	gfredericks	hey technomancy so three build tools walk into a bar
17:36	gfredericks	no they don't.
17:37	amalloy	hiredman: is the s in sbt scala? i thought it was supposed to be simple
17:37	hiredman	whichever
17:37	gfredericks	or smalltalk
17:37	gfredericks	or sea++
17:37	dbasch	amalloy: scala was supposed to be simple
17:38	dbasch	or maybe it wasn't
17:38	justin_smith	if it was, that reflects badly on their design skills
17:39	gfredericks	what does it take to get `lein repl` to use a forked version of nrepl?
17:39	dbasch	I would have called it Javaskell
17:39	technomancy	that joke works better with a non-rhotic accent, so sorry all non-commonwealth persons
17:39	justin_smith	haskpresso
17:41	m1dnight	:D
17:41	cfleming	michaelr524: The next drop of Cursive (in a day or two) has a panel to configure your keybindings in one go.
17:41	m1dnight	If Hitler ever made a programming language, I think it would Haskell
17:41	m1dnight	I just tried Cursive, but the formatting is WAY off :p
17:42	m1dnight	(formatting of source)
17:42	dbasch	Ha ࿕kell
17:42	cfleming	michaelr524: It has two sets, basically what I use (see https://cursiveclojure.com/userguide/paredit.html) and Emacs
17:42	cfleming	m1dnight: What are you seeing with formatting?
17:42	cfleming	m1dnight: There are various options.
17:43	m1dnight	Parts that hav too much tabbing. A manual indentation, with a tab too much, followed by a format did fix it though
17:43	m1dnight	might be because I edited in emacs
17:43	cfleming	m1dnight: Can you show me an example?
17:43	michaelr524	cfleming: Great! Thanks :)
17:45	m1dnight	let me look it upt cfleming it's a few commits back
17:45	cfleming	m1dnight: Thanks - a few people have mentioned this when starting with Cursive but I've never seen an example.
17:52	gfredericks	so I see tools.nrepl is included with leiningen's :base profile; does that mean the only way to exclude tools.nrepl is to somehow exclude the :base profile?
17:53	gfredericks	or is there some special merge feature I'm unaware of?
17:53	technomancy	gfredericks: it should defer to nrepl in :dependencies if one is present
17:54	technomancy	oh, unless you're changing the group-id?
17:54	technomancy	in that case you can shadow :base by putting :base {} in project.clj
18:01	gfredericks	hmm
18:01	gfredericks	okay
18:01	gfredericks	I guess a local install with the same group ID is probably easiest
18:01	gfredericks	although none of these options in :base look too crucial
18:02	technomancy	gfredericks: hm; oh right you would lose some other :base things
18:04	user9865	anyone around?
18:04	technomancy	nope
18:05	justin_smith	user9865: if you have a question you can go ahead and ask
18:06	user9865	Persistent data structures - can they be shared safely between threads outside STM?
18:06	justin_smith	if used as intended, yes
18:06	hiredman	of course
18:06	hiredman	by definition
18:07	hiredman	they are immutable
18:07	user9865	so what is the point of refs? Safe update of a single reference ?
18:07	jeremyheiler	yes
18:07	hiredman	user9865: I recommend rich's "our we there yet talk"
18:08	justin_smith	refs are a reference to an immutible datatype - the ref changes, the data it points to does not
18:08	user9865	OK i see - threads can share PDS's but single ref updates have to be co-ordinated
18:08	hiredman	I would also pretty much recommend ignoring the stm
18:08	m1dnight	Simply put: if you "change" a data structure in clojure, it tries to share as much with the original as possible
18:09	hiredman	user9865: they are by definition coordinated
18:09	m1dnight	if you cons 1 to '(2 3 4) you have a pointer to a list that starts with 1, but '(2 3 4) are shared.
18:09	m1dnight	Correct me if im wrong
18:09	user9865	yep that is as I understand it
18:09	noonian	yep, and all the core datastructures work that way
18:10	user9865	@midnight - why ignore STM ?
18:10	hiredman	I am pretty sure I said that
18:10	user9865	yeah sorry you did
18:10	hiredman	in practice the stm doesn't really get used
18:11	hiredman	it of course depends a lot on what you are doing, maybe if you are writing a big simulation or something you may use refs
18:11	technomancy	user9865: most state change is either trivial (no need for coordination) or cross-server, where STM doesn't help
18:11	noonian	user9865: the 'ref' reference type uses the stm but you usually don't need that level of coardination between multiple mutable refs, most clojure programs have 1 or maybe 2 mutable things in them if any
18:11	gfredericks	I used refs once and it was almost as a joke
18:11	hiredman	but generally you might use an atom here or there
18:13	user9865	ok i can see why refs wouldn't be used much if you have PDS's anyway - the book i am reading made a big deal of them though
18:13	technomancy	they are conceptually very cool
18:14	gfredericks	just like erlang
18:14	technomancy	these days almost all server-side software is distributed systems, where thety don't help at all
18:14	hiredman	I dunno, most large clojure shops use it for large data processing jobs, the stm just isn't useful there
18:16	hiredman	rich's example of the stm is the ants simulation, and in my limited circle I don't know people who write things like that
18:17	technomancy	if clojure got used for non-server things, STM would get used more I bet
18:18	hiredman	well, thinking about, I think the ants simulation is really a demo, if I was charged with writing such a thing, I don't think I would write it like that
18:19	gfredericks	my use was qubit simulation....so that goes with the simulation theme
18:20	hiredman	it seems like the best way to run a large scale simulation is to figure out how to formulate it as matrix algebra and turn some fortran library loose on it
18:20	hiredman	so I dunno
18:20	vIkSiT	hello all
18:21	vIkSiT	in a clojurescript om app, I'm getting an issue using transact! and update!
18:21	vIkSiT	https://gist.github.com/viksit/ffe8a79a50e84f623128
18:21	hiredman	an important thing to realize though is the STM is just refs, the other reference types are not part of the stm (agents are slightly coupled, but entirely useable without it)
18:21	vIkSiT	Uncaught Error: No protocol method ITransact.-transact! defined for type cljs.core/Atom: [object Object]
18:21	noonian	vIkSiT: you need to use transact! and update! on a cursor that Om passes your component, not on the atom itself
18:21	vIkSiT	Do you guys know what I'm doing wrong?
18:21	hiredman	(not that I really use agents for anything either)
18:22	vIkSiT	noonian, ah - how do I simulate what om passes?
18:24	noonian	vIkSiT: are you trying to use Om? or just update your atom?
18:25	vIkSiT	noonian, well, I'm using Om.
18:25	vIkSiT	I'm just trying to also figure out what's different in doing (om/root timeline-view timeline-state {:target (. js/document (getElementById "main"))})
18:25	vIkSiT	vs updating it myself
18:26	vIkSiT	how does that cursor get formed, exactly and how do I simulate to test whether it works?
18:26	noonian	vIkSiT: thats my one gripe about Om, if you want to have toplevel things affect toplevel app state you need to do some hacks to make the root cursor available
18:26	vIkSiT	because right now, I haven't figured out yet how to write an om component with the Irender and whatnot
18:26	vIkSiT	noonian, ah :/
18:27	vIkSiT	noonian, what kind of hacks? any documented ones/I can read about somewhere? gists?
18:27	noonian	vIkSiT: your timeline-view in that example will get passed a cursor that looks and acts like app-state that you can transact! on
18:28	vIkSiT	noonian, right- but right now, that (get-posts function isn't integrated into my view
18:28	vIkSiT	since I haven't quite figured out the lifecycle yet
18:28	vIkSiT	I know I need to do a reify (IWillMount (..)))
18:29	vIkSiT	but still hacking through that hehe
18:29	vIkSiT	I figured if I call (get-posts) before
18:29	vIkSiT	atleast my app state is populated
18:29	vIkSiT	and my view will render it
18:30	noonian	yeah, i can't help more right now; at work, but i usually use core.async to coordinate, a simple hack for testing would be in your views IWillUpdate lifecycle protocol store the root cursor in a top level atom
18:31	vIkSiT	ah
18:31	vIkSiT	k thanks. Will check
18:57	theseb	2 newb questions....1. Why/how does clojure use brackets?...[] ....I thought there was an unspoken law that lisps had to only use parens?!? 2. Does Clojure have wrappers to call Java functions?...I don't get how that works since Java functions are in a different language
18:57	theseb	any help appreciated
18:58	hiredman	clojure compiles to jvm bytecode just like java does, so clojure can emit the same jvm bytecode for a method call as java to call a java method
18:59	hiredman	clojure has more data structure literals than traditional lisps and uses them as part of its syntax
18:59	hiredman	[] for a vector, {} for a map, #{} for a set
18:59	theseb	hiredman: thanks..but by allowing brackets doesn't that interere with desire to have code and data look the same?
18:59	technomancy	schemes use square brackets too; the "parens are the only true form of homoiconicity" is a CL trope
19:00	hiredman	theseb: how so? vectors are both valid code and data in clojure
19:00	hiredman	technomancy: being scheme it of course depends on the scheme
19:00	technomancy	hiredman: hm; I thought it was in r5rs
19:00	theseb	hiredman: ok....so they at least only allow parens, brackets and braces..at least they kept the deviations to a minimum
19:00	technomancy	been a few years so I could be thinking of something else
19:01	technomancy	theseb: there's no "deviation"
19:01	theseb	hiredman: and lastly how call Java libraries from Clojure?
19:01	hiredman	technomancy: could me I just read stuff that refers to old schemes
19:01	technomancy	data structures are valid code
19:01	hiredman	theseb: checkout clojure.org or one of the many tutorials on the internet that google can find for you
19:01	technomancy	though I guess you don't see any core macros using sets; you could certainly write your own
19:02	theseb	ok thanks
19:03	hiredman	technomancy: well, you don't have to use them in a macro to be code, a literal is code
19:06	noonian	they probably don't use set syntax for code because the # makes it uglier than the other literals available
19:07	technomancy	it would scare away those with perl allergies
19:07	hiredman	code that evaluates in an undefined order is weird
19:07	hiredman	(which is technically true of maps to, but array maps sort of get around that)
19:07	hiredman	too
19:17	vIkSiT	eeh
19:17	vIkSiT	how do you guys parse json in clojure?
19:17	vIkSiT	using transit?
19:17	amalloy	cheshire
19:17	vIkSiT	ah
19:18	vIkSiT	amalloy, cheshire vs transit? any thoughts?
19:18	justin_smith	transit is a whole other thing. It isn't a json parser.
19:18	noonian	thank god transit came out, it was getting rediculous not being able to parse json :P
19:19	vIkSiT	hehe
19:19	hiredman	transit is a new set of formats above and beyond json
19:19	hiredman	chesire is a json parser
19:19	justin_smith	vIkSiT: data.json comes with clojure, but many of us prefer cheshire
19:19	hiredman	(as is clj-json and data.json)
19:19	dbasch	ibm needs to come up with transitx
19:19	technomancy	justin_smith: "comes with" clojure?
19:19	vIkSiT	ah hmm
19:19	vIkSiT	I didn't realize data.json was included?
19:19	technomancy	vIkSiT: it's not
19:20	vIkSiT	whew
19:20	justin_smith	technomancy: oh, I was wrong about that
19:20	vIkSiT	of course, I wish it was :)
19:20	dbasch	vIkSiT: use cheshire
19:20	justin_smith	cheshire is better anyway, yeah
19:20	noonian	yeah, it's named after a cat
19:21	justin_smith	and would you believe, it handles smile data?
19:21	vIkSiT	ah
19:21	vIkSiT	thanks for the info!
19:23	vIkSiT	haha
19:24	vIkSiT	small problem - clojurescript vs clojure. sigh
19:24	vIkSiT	I forgot I was writing clojurescript.
19:25	dbasch	vIkSiT: in that case just use the native js parser
19:30	technomancy	aka eval
19:32	dbasch	well, it's eval after verifying that's it's actually json
19:32	dbasch	otherwise the web would be a horrible(r) place
19:34	dbasch	I'm convinced that all the unnecessary json generation/parsing we do is one of the root causes of global warming
19:42	{blake}	I'm having trouble figuring out dependencies.
19:43	{blake}	I've got a rather complex project with many files. One of them :requires clj-time.core (for example).
19:43	{blake}	But I don't have clj-time (anything) in my project.clj.
19:43	justin_smith	{blake}: lein deps :tree
19:44	{blake}	justin_smith Well...that's...a thing.
19:44	hiredman	{blake}: that is bad, if it works at all it is because some other dependency you do depend on is pulling in clj-time, so you are getting it transitively
19:45	{blake}	hiredman, aha...so that actually answers all of my questions. Since the next one was going to be: "Not only is it not in the project.clj, the version being used is horribly out-of-date."
19:45	hiredman	you should not directly depend on (via require, etc) any code that lein thinks you only transitively depend on
19:45	{blake}	There it is...it's in compojure.
19:47	{blake}	Boy, does that seem bad. I can use different versions in the same code I presume.
19:48	hiredman	can't
19:49	{blake}	hiredman, Well, that seems like a problem. I need a newer version but rely on code that uses an older version?
19:50	hiredman	well, if the api hasn't changed, you can tell lein to ignore compojure's dependency and then specify your own dependency
19:50	technomancy	or if the API has changed only in additive ways
19:50	hiredman	right
19:51	hiredman	if not then that won't work
19:51	{blake}	I think it's only additive. If I specify a particular clj-time in the project.clj, that'll override?
19:52	technomancy	yeah, direct deps win over transitive ones
19:52	hiredman	I'd suggest using :exclude too
19:53	hiredman	you could upgrade your version of compojure, it doesn't look like clj-time is in the project.clj for the latest
19:53	amalloy	it seems pretty weird for compojure to depend on clj-time anyway
19:54	hiredman	yeah
19:54	{blake}	hiredman, To exclude...? And, actually, I'm not sure why compojure is in this project at all. It might just be a leftover. (Old, large project, never refactored.)
19:54	hiredman	I am trying to figure out when compojure ever depended on clj-time, and I don't see that anywhere
19:55	justin_smith	{blake}: was clj-time being used directly by compojure, or by one of compojure's deps?
19:55	hiredman	{blake}: then rip it out
19:56	{blake}	compojure 1.1.5 used ring/ring.,core 1.1.7, which in turn used clj-time 0.3.7, if I'm reading this correctly.
19:57	amalloy	{blake}: yep, sounds right to me
19:57	justin_smith	it's pulling it in for calculating intervals and seconds in cookies
19:57	justin_smith	https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=clj-time
19:57	amalloy	in fact latest compojure still depends on clj-time transitively
19:58	hiredman	ah
19:58	hiredman	I assumed "it's in compojure" meant "compojure directly depends on it"
19:58	{blake}	Muchas gracias, clojuros. Very educational.
19:59	{blake}	hiredman, apologies for the imprecision.
20:01	hiredman	I should have known better than to assume, and it didn't really matter anyway
20:02	{blake}	Is there any way to tell from inside a repl what version of a lib you're using?
20:02	gfredericks	sorta
20:02	gfredericks	it takes a lot of fumbling
20:02	amalloy	{blake}: not really. library versions don't exist at runtime
20:03	{blake}	Bummer. I notice there seems to be some sort of lag between Cursive and...well, things NOT Cursive. It can be very confusing.
20:04	hiredman	the dependency stuff comes from maven, which lein grafts on top of clojure with a lot of other stuff
20:05	{blake}	And lord knows, I'm grateful. They keep threatening to make me go back to Ruby, and I get the cold sweats thinking about gemsets.
20:05	hiredman	if you are new to clojure a good 50% of what you think of as clojure is behaviour from lein and not "clojure" per se
20:06	{blake}	hiredman, Very true. I picked that up pretty fast, I think.
20:07	{blake}	(It's probably the only thing I've picked up fast in Clojure. That and the REPL.)
20:08	{blake}	See, now I've got clj-time/core 0.8.0 in my app, and it knows all the functions up to line 599.
20:13	dbasch	compojure depends on ring which uses clj-time only for cookies
20:14	justin_smith	dbasch: as I showed with my above github link
20:14	dbasch	yes, that's what I was looking at. Was I typing out loud again? :P
20:52	vIkSiT	hmm
20:52	vIkSiT	I think I'm missing something here : https://gist.github.com/viksit/8079734bf051ee1a435f
20:52	vIkSiT	what's wrong with this JSON?
20:53	irctc	,(time (repeatedly 10000 (vec 0)))
20:53	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to convert: class java.lang.Long to Object[]>
20:54	irctc	,(time (repeatedly 10000 #(vec 0)))
20:54	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to convert: class java.lang.Long to Object[]>
20:54	justin_smith	,(do (time (repeatedly 10000 (vector 0))) (time (doall (repeatedly 10000 (vector 0)))))
20:54	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 0.046326 msecs"\n#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: PersistentVector>
20:55	justin_smith	,(do (time (repeatedly 10000 #(vector 0))) (time (doall (repeatedly 10000 #(vector 0)))))
20:55	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 0.123552 msecs"\n"Elapsed time: 11.683289 msecs"\n([0] [0] [0] [0] [0] ...)
20:55	justin_smith	it's 100 times faster when you don't realize it
20:55	irctc	,(time (doall (repeatedly 10000 (vector 0))))
20:55	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: PersistentVector>
20:56	mdeboard	Anyone using Cursive with IntelliJ?
20:56	irctc	,(time (doall (repeatedly 10000 #(vector 0))))
20:56	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 4.741657 msecs"\n([0] [0] [0] [0] [0] ...)
20:56	mdeboard	I'm curious if it's possible to start a new Clojure project somehow with it, and I'm just missing something
20:57	amalloy	irctc: please /msg clojurebot any test expressions you aren't intentionally making public
20:58	irctc	thanks
20:58	amalloy	vIkSiT: that's not json, it's an object. json is a string representation of a javascript object
20:58	dbasch	vIkSiT: you're assigning an object to a variable
20:58	dbasch	there's nothing to parse
21:00	irctc	i think clojurebot is ignoring me :(
21:00	irctc	oh, nm, new window
21:04	theseb	is clojure authore some kind of lisp genius? he had strong options about mutability and concurrency.....most people don't even know what those terms mean let alone know enough to go their own way in lang development?!
21:04	theseb	s/authore/author
21:04	dbasch	most people don't create programming languages
21:05	cfleming	mdeboard: Yep, what's up?
21:05	theseb	dbasch: is clojure getting the love from clispers and rest of lisp community?
21:05	theseb	dbasch: it seems to attempt to solve a lot of gripes people have with lisp
21:05	cfleming	{blake}: What is the problem you're seeing with lag?
21:06	mdeboard	cfleming: Trying to sort out how to start a new project but I see that they recomend just doing lein new
21:06	dbasch	theseb: clojure is obviously quite popular within the list community for several reasons
21:06	dbasch	s/list/lisp
21:07	cfleming	mdeboard: Right (I develop Cursive) - there's no way to create a new lein project from within Cursive right now, sorry
21:07	dbasch	but also pretty much everyone who has had to deal with concurrency has strong opinions about concurrency
21:07	mdeboard	it's no problem
21:07	mdeboard	just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something
21:07	theseb	dbasch: is there any reason lispers would not love clojure?
21:07	cfleming	mdeboard: No, there's an issue out there about it and it's on at least one to-do list
21:08	mdeboard	cool
21:08	mdeboard	I'm coming from emacs and stuff so this is pretty normal workflow
21:08	mdeboard	to me
21:08	justin_smith	theseb: it's not common lisp, it has syntax and symbols that common lisp does not use
21:09	dbasch	theseb: perhaps the fact that it hard to use clojure properly without having some knowledge of java and the jvm
21:09	justin_smith	theseb: when I first started using clojure I found the many differences from other lisps annoying (now I love them)
21:09	cfleming	mdeboard: Ok great. Let me know if you have any issues.
21:10	dbasch	especially if you need to optimize for performance
21:11	mdeboard	seems awesome. emacs is pretty flakey on Windows (for me anyway) so I'm looking for a way to work on projects when I'm playing a game or watching Netflix (I do neither on Linux). And I've heard great things about Cursive
21:12	cfleming	mdeboard: Great, glad to hear it! Windows support is one of the reasons I want to be able to create a project from within Cursive actually, since people often aren't as used to using the command line.
21:13	mdeboard	yeah, no doubt
21:13	mdeboard	I assumed it was like a pretty easy thing to build into a plugin for IntelliJ since "Create Project" is right there on the splash page
21:13	mdeboard	but I guess not
21:15	dbasch	this is somewhat offtopic, but I went back to my kinesis Keyboard a few days ago and I'm trying to figure out a layout for the modifier keys that works well with emacs as well as the rest of osx. Suggestions welcome.
21:16	mdeboard	cfleming: cursive was mentioned at strangeloop in the typed clojure talk actually
21:16	mdeboard	as adding support or some such
21:17	cfleming	mdeboard: Yeah, there's some preliminary support in there I added recently. There's no doc for it yet unfortunately.
21:18	cfleming	mdeboard: If you're interested, you can type check your current ns using Tools->REPL->Type check current NS
21:19	mdeboard	oh I don't use typed clojure whatsoever
21:19	mdeboard	but the talk was interesting
21:19	cfleming	mdeboard: Errors are marked in the editor and so forth.
21:19	cfleming	Ah, ok
21:19	cfleming	Yeah, I haven't watched it yet
21:19	mdeboard	btw do you have a theme besides darcula you use? Too much orange
21:19	mdeboard	I have an orange house with an orange window. Orange is the color of all that I wear
21:20	amalloy	mdeboard: you can also run emacs in a linux vm, if don't want to learn a new editor
21:20	mdeboard	amalloy: naw I like IntelliJ actually, I have the emacs keybinds all set up and so forth
21:20	cfleming	mdeboard: I'm old school, I have black on white. You can get a lot of themes (solarized etc) around.
21:20	amalloy	cfleming: old school is black on white?? i think you mean orange on black
21:21	amalloy	mdeboard: i tried the emacs bindings for eclipse, and found myself in a kind of uncanny valley where some things worked well enough to make me surprised and angry at the millions of things that didn't work at all
21:21	cfleming	amalloy: Or green on black, I guess. But all the cool kids seem to be on some kind of dark theme these days.
21:22	amalloy	cfleming: i do use green on black for my terminal, although i think orange predates it a bit
21:22	amalloy	a nice solid 0000FF on 000000, no compromises
21:22	amalloy	errrrrr, 00FF00
21:24	dbasch	anything but a black background would destroy your monitor quickly back in the day
21:25	amalloy	interesting. "An amber screen was claimed to give improved ergonomics, specifically by reducing eye strain; this claim appears to have little scientific basis." i remember my dad telling me this is why he bought amber screens instead of green for the house
21:25	dbasch	the first monitor I bought looked like this http://cdn.arstechnica.net//wp-content/uploads/2012/06/s_p_11716_1__49099_zoom.jpg
21:25	dbasch	it was significantly nicer than green
21:26	amalloy	dbasch: that's what i grew up around; i was far too young to buy them, but not so young that i don't remember them
21:26	dbasch	I went from a color tv to that, and it was much more tolerable
21:27	cfleming	amalloy: Yeah, 0000FF on 000000 might be a bit subtle - only for those really dark coding caves
21:31	theseb	say...clojure uses first and rest instead of car and cdr.....how does it access the SECOND element of a cons cell....does it is use rest?
21:31	theseb	that is only place were rest seems awkward
21:32	justin_smith	,(second '(0 1 2))
21:32	clojurebot	1
21:32	justin_smith	or do you mean in terms of implementation?
21:32	theseb	justin_smith: does clojure have cons cells like (a . b) ?
21:33	theseb	justin_smith: how would you access the b?
21:33	justin_smith	no
21:33	theseb	justin_smith: whoa...clojure hides the list implementation details of cons cells?
21:33	theseb	justin_smith: i'm interested
21:34	theseb	justin_smith: i personally wrote a list that hid that...i'm intrigued that clojure author avoided cons cells too
21:34	justin_smith	,(type (cons :a nil))
21:34	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentList
21:34	justin_smith	the source is open, if you want to check out how it was done
21:34	mdeboard	cfleming: Only thing I've bumped into so far is that some of the default keybinds (Ctrl-W for example) bump into emacs keybinds. You mention this somewhere in the docs, but I'm not sure how/where to modify this. Can you point me in the right direction?
21:35	dbasch	theseb: it's an interface called ISeq that has many different implementations
21:35	justin_smith	theseb: cons is not as primative and universal in clojure
21:35	mdeboard	meaning, you explicitly address the "shipping default keybinds is hard because of conflicts" issue in the docs
21:35	justin_smith	theseb: we use many different data types, without building them out of conses
21:35	dbasch	theseb: more detail here: http://clojure.org/sequences
21:35	cfleming	mdeboard: Right - there's actually a new panel coming in the next build to help with setting that up.
21:35	theseb	justin_smith: for years i've hearing in lisp docs about how lisp are "really conses"
21:36	cfleming	mdeboard: You're using emacs bindings, right?
21:36	mdeboard	oh, keymap, derp
21:36	mdeboard	Yeah
21:37	cfleming	mdeboard: Yeah, it's under Settings->Kemap. Cursive actions will take precedence in Clojure settings, so you should only have to rebind the built-in actions that your keybindings conflict with.
21:37	justin_smith	theseb: many data structures in clojure are not lists, and are in no way made of lists. It ends up being pretty useful to do things that way.
21:38	mdeboard	cfleming: The list of keybinds under the Cursive section is pretty small-ish, are the Ctrl-W/Ctrl-P etc. binds under Editor actions
21:38	dbasch	theseb: probably one of the nicest features of clojure is the data structures and the functions to interact with them
21:38	mdeboard	If this is annoying doing tech support like this let me know :P
21:38	cfleming	mdeboard: Hehe, no worries. Check the bottom of the page here: https://cursiveclojure.com/userguide/paredit.html
21:39	cfleming	mdeboard: There are a couple of groups, the easiest way to find them is from Main Menu in the tree.
21:39	mdeboard	ahso
21:39	cfleming	mdeboard: The REPL commands are all under Tools->REPL
21:40	vIkSiT	amalloy, dbasch - yeah, I realized that - something in the way I'm returning json data I guess
21:43	mdeboard	cfleming: aha! great re: the docs nestled at the bottom there. May be worth breaking out into a "Keyboard Navigation" section in the docs or something.... maybe. With all the time I'm sure you have
21:43	mdeboard	:P
21:43	cfleming	mdeboard: haha, I'm lounging in a hammock with a cocktail right now.
21:44	cfleming	mdeboard: Amazingly I actually have updated those docs for the next drop, which has the new config panel
21:44	mdeboard	well look at you
21:44	mdeboard	with your cocktails
21:44	mdeboard	and your hammocks
21:45	cfleming	mdeboard: Sadly it was a total lie
21:46	mdeboard	good
21:46	mdeboard	Misery loves company
21:48	raspasov	LightTable vs cursive - opinions?
21:48	mdeboard	cursive
21:49	mdeboard	lighttable will be abandonware eventually
21:49	mdeboard	if it's not already
21:49	mdeboard	raspasov:
21:49	raspasov	ok 0:1, more takes? :)
21:49	justin_smith	cursive
21:49	raspasov	0:2 :)
21:49	justin_smith	oh, I know the right way to do this
21:49	justin_smith	(inc cursive)
21:49	lazybot	⇒ 1
21:50	raspasov	LOL
21:50	cfleming	raspasov: I'd say Cursive but I develop it, so that's worth half a point at best
21:50	raspasov	oh, haha lol
21:50	raspasov	ok 0:2.5 :D
21:50	mdeboard	raspasov: I'm basing my comment on http://www.chris-granger.com/2014/10/01/beyond-light-table/
21:50	justin_smith	cfleming: raspasov: the fact that the developer of cursive is here talking to users about bugs, docs, and features and the developer of lighttable is not is worth ∞ points.
21:50	mdeboard	well
21:50	mdeboard	now let's be fair
21:51	mdeboard	chris was a fixture in here for a long, long time
21:51	justin_smith	OK
21:51	mdeboard	but, yeah, in practical terms...
21:51	cfleming	It's actually a shame LT is gradually becoming abandonware, it had some nice ideas I think
21:52	cfleming	It's still great for getting started with Clojure
21:52	mdeboard	Yeah, that's what I heard on all points
21:52	cfleming	For something like ClojureBridge it's probably still really good.
21:53	mdeboard	Yeah I need to test that hypothesis
21:53	cfleming	But I think a lot of the live-REPL ideas don't work so well once you have more complex code with state etc.
21:53	mdeboard	My girlfriend is going to the next cljbridge down here in Austin, whenever it is, wonder what they recommnd editor-wise
21:53	cfleming	I'm still planning to implement painting REPL results in the editor at some point, but I need to inc my swing-fu
21:54	raspasov	cfleming: what do you mean painting REPL?
21:54	mdeboard	justin_smith: Actually the creator of light table IS in the channel :P
21:54	raspasov	like color the REPL output?
21:55	justin_smith	mdeboard: OK
21:55	cfleming	raspasov: No, Light Table's main selling feature is that the REPL is not in a separate editor pane like in Cursive or Emacs, when you evaluate things in the REPL the result is shown right in your editor.
21:55	cfleming	raspasov: Along with intermediate results like let-bindings and so on.
21:55	mdeboard	:(
21:55	justin_smith	mdeboard: my point was more about activity / responsiveness of the main developer, long term future of the tool, etc.
21:56	raspasov	cfleming: yea I know... not sure if I really see the benefit of that past the fact I have to click-erase that damn bubble in the middle of my page :)
21:56	justin_smith	in case that wasn't clear
21:56	mdeboard	justin_smith: I understand
21:56	mdeboard	text chat, easily misunderstood, etc., etc.
21:56	cfleming	raspasov: Yeah, it's not so useful to have them sticking around long term - I guess it should be easy to clear them though
21:57	raspasov	cfleming: are you the guy responding on Twitter as well?
21:57	mdeboard	I think ReactJS/Om would lend themselves quite well to live-REPL'ing, if done right
21:57	cfleming	Watches were also an interesting idea, but I heard they didn't work very reliably
21:57	cfleming	raspasov: Yup, that's me.
21:57	mdeboard	since there's a "football" of state that's being handed off from component to component (in the worst case)
21:58	raspasov	cfleming: cool! are you doing cursive by yourself? in any case, keep up the good work!
21:58	mdeboard	in the... what's the word, pathological case?
21:58	cfleming	raspasov: Yep, it's just me, right now at least.
21:58	raspasov	cfleming: I would definitely be a buyer whenever it's ready
21:59	mdeboard	well-behaved React & Om applications don't pass state around that much at all
21:59	mdeboard	cfleming: what, I thought cursive was a biz
21:59	cfleming	raspasov: Great, that's the best way to make sure it stays maintained :-)
21:59	mdeboard	like you had multiple people maintaining
21:59	cfleming	mdeboard: Yup, I set up a company the other day and everything.
21:59	mdeboard	oh, wild
21:59	cfleming	But it's a small company of one.
22:00	mdeboard	So I know nothing about IntelliJ-as-a-platform development, I assumed it was like WordPress, and that the people (!) behind Cursive were in a company that did multiple plugins as their source of revenue
22:00	mdeboard	apparently not
22:01	cfleming	mdeboard: No, Cursive is kind of unique actually, no-one else who isn't jetbrains is charging for plugins.
22:01	raspasov	mdeboard: not at all, anyone can make I plugin I believe
22:01	cfleming	mdeboard: There's quite a lot of unknown around how that will work, but I'm optimistic.
22:01	mdeboard	Well yeah but anyone can make WordPress themes/plugins too, but there's an industry around it etc
22:02	cfleming	And I'd like to branch out into more plugins once Cursive is stable if there's a market and time allows.
22:02	cfleming	OCaml, Julia or Rust, maybe - there are already OSS plugins for Go and Erlang
22:02	mdeboard	Seems like best bet might be to find some wealthy entity out there who would benefit from wider Clojure adoption?
22:03	mdeboard	Elixir
22:03	mdeboard	There's a gy working on one of those here in Austin
22:03	mdeboard	we were commisserating over syntax highlighting being difficult ot get right (I maintain elixir-mode for emacs)
22:03	cfleming	Yeah, I think Cursive could really help drive Clojure adoption in enterprise, atcually
22:03	mdeboard	er, s/syntax highlighting/indentation/
22:03	mdeboard	Ya no doubt
22:04	mdeboard	I am a workaday Python programmer who uses emacs exclusively but PyCharm is pretty sweet.
22:06	cfleming	Yeah, no doubt - I'm a huge fan of JetBrains and their products
22:06	raspasov	JetBrains rocks
22:07	cfleming	mdeboard: Interesting, Elixir looks really cool - I've heard a few people talking about it recently
22:07	cfleming	But it does look like something you'd have to parse properly rather than regexing
22:07	mdeboard	Yeah it builds on Erlang pretty well. But from a language mode maintainer's perspective, the syntax is so squishy. So many ways to express everything
22:07	cfleming	mdeboard: Tell me about it!
22:08	mdeboard	hahaha, yeah I guess preaching to the choir with a lisp
22:08	mdeboard	but fortunately Emacs has pretty decent faculty for doing comprehensive indentation handling. It's just a bear to get productive in it
22:09	mdeboard	In Cursive is there a command for "Send this form to the repl"
22:09	cfleming	Yeah, formatting code is amazingly hard.
22:09	cfleming	Steve Yegge talked about it in his article about JS2 mode - it's well worth a read if you haven't read it already
22:09	mdeboard	Yeah, it's one of those things that you never think about. Something as "simple" as triple-quoted strings """like this""" is... so hard.
22:09	mdeboard	Oh man I need to re-read that, been a long time
22:10	cfleming	Yup Tools->REPL->Run form before cursor/Run top form
22:10	raspasov	mdeboard: you can setup custom key combination for it as well
22:10	mdeboard	raspasov: do tell
22:11	cfleming	That article really brings home how hard it is to retrofit proper syntax analysis to an editor that isn't built for it from the ground up
22:11	raspasov	fyi I was never a Emacs person - what are some Pro tips for arranging ()?
22:11	raspasov	the only thing I know is
22:11	mdeboard	oh there it is, the thing for the repl keybind
22:12	cfleming	mdeboard: Settings->Keymap then find the action in the tree under Main Menu->Tools->REPL
22:12	mdeboard	cfleming: I got it this time, I think I see how the keymap thing is laid outnow
22:13	mdeboard	raspasov: What do you mean, arranging ()? cider has pretty sensible defaults, and paredit works wonders (though I don't use it)
22:14	raspasov	I'm talking about the Slurp, Barf, Move Form Up, Down etc
22:16	mdeboard	oh, I don't know that stuff. I might be the most unproductive emacs person
22:16	mdeboard	no paredit, no structural editing, etc.
22:19	cfleming	Anyone here who might be able to help with a test.check problem?
22:20	reiddraper	cfleming: sure
22:21	cfleming	reiddraper: You sound like just the man. I'm trying to get the recursive generation working - we exchanged a couple of mails about it on the mailing list.
22:21	reiddraper	okie
22:21	mdeboard	Anyone know of a template for liberator projects
22:21	mdeboard	lein template*
22:22	cfleming	reiddraper: This is what I have: https://www.refheap.com/91043
22:22	mdeboard	https://github.com/flyingmachine/liberator-templates
22:22	mdeboard	Oh this isn't what I need at all.
22:23	cfleming	reiddraper: primitives and (compound primitives) work fine
22:24	cfleming	reiddraper: (gen/sample (gen/recursive-gen compound primitives)) also works
22:24	cfleming	reiddraper: But I'd like object to generate objects that can recursively contain other objects
22:24	cfleming	reiddraper: I get an NPE when I try that
22:25	reiddraper	cfleming: it seems to me that your example should work, and will contain recursive objects
22:26	reiddraper	cfleming: for example, your refheap example should generate vectors of vectors of nil
22:27	cfleming	reiddraper: I get this: https://www.refheap.com/91044
22:28	reiddraper	cfleming: okie, let me try locally
22:28	cfleming	reiddraper: Thanks
22:30	reiddraper	cfleming: oh
22:30	reiddraper	cfleming: you want (def object (gen/recursive-gen compound primitives))
22:30	reiddraper	not (def object (gen/recursive-gen compound object))
22:31	cfleming	reiddraper: But then will the objects recursively contain other objects?
22:31	reiddraper	cfleming: yes
22:32	reiddraper	try it
22:32	cfleming	reiddraper: You're absolutely right, they do - thanks!
22:32	reiddraper	cfleming: no problem
22:35	bcm	anyone own an ergodox?
22:40	scottj	bcm: you might want to ask you specific question in, say, #geekhack
22:40	scottj	bcm: there are people here with ergodox, best to just ask your question
22:46	bcm	scottj: that was my only question :(
22:46	scottj	bcm: oh :)
22:47	scottj	way to troll the ,anyone police
23:08	mdeboard	idk if any cursive users are still around, but do I have to do anything specific for cursive to know where leiningen is keeping the projects it downloads?
23:09	mdeboard	e.g. configure Maven settings to know there are jars in C:\Users\matt\.m2
23:09	cfleming	Ummm, I'm not sure what you mean - are you talking about the libs or the sources?
23:09	cfleming	mdeboard: You shouldn't have to, Cursive will find them (via lein)
23:09	mdeboard	ah ok
23:10	cfleming	How are you setting your project up? Are you importing from your lein project?
23:10	cfleming	mdeboard: It should Just Work (tm) if you do that.
23:10	mdeboard	I followed the instructions (I think), everything seems to be going ok. I imported from VCS
23:10	mdeboard	repl works and everything, that stuff is ine
23:10	mdeboard	fine*
23:10	cfleming	Ok, cool
23:10	mdeboard	just getting an error notification with the following block of code
23:11	mdeboard	https://gist.github.com/mattdeboard/a93d80c21b28340cd172 ... complaining about the first 'section' there after defresource
23:12	mdeboard	"section cannot be resolved". I figured it might be because it hasn't processed the defresource macro or some such
23:12	cfleming	mdeboard: So this is the biggest problem with Cursive - there's no way for it to know what macros are doing.
23:13	cfleming	mdeboard: I've taught it about a lot of them, and Cursive is built around an extension api that people will be able to use to contribute support for libs they use or write.
23:13	cfleming	mdeboard: But that's not open yet, it's not totally stable yet.
23:13	mdeboard	ahh ok
23:13	mdeboard	interesting
23:14	cfleming	mdeboard: I keep finding new functionality I have to add to it as I add refactorings and so on, but it's getting there.
23:18	mdeboard	For my purposes (I'm in bottom 10% of users easily) I just wanna turn off the error notification :(
23:36	cfleming	mdeboard: You can do that - Settings->IDE Settings->Clojure->Highlight unresolved symbols
23:43	joshuafcole_	What's the most idiomatic way to loop through a seq and do side-effecty things that can provide the current index?
23:43	joshuafcole_	e.g.
23:44	amalloy	map-indexed
23:44	justin_smith	joshuafcole_: dotimes
23:44	joshuafcole_	(do (map my-fn some-seq (range (count some-seq)))
23:44	justin_smith	for side-effecty
23:44	joshuafcole_	ah, map-indexed is already a big improvement
23:44	amalloy	justin_smith: dotimes won't work, unless you want to call (nth mycoll n) and make it O(n*n)
23:45	justin_smith	ahh, right
23:45	joshuafcole_	thanks amalloy!
23:45	joshuafcole_	(inc amalloy)
23:45	lazybot	⇒ 172
23:45	justin_smith	joshuafcole_: putting it in a do will ensure none of the side effects happen
23:45	justin_smith	use dorun instead
23:45	joshuafcole_	none of them?
23:45	amalloy	yeah, indeed
23:45	joshuafcole_	oh right
23:45	joshuafcole_	that's what I meant
23:45	joshuafcole_	that would have been fun to debug
23:46	joshuafcole_	heh
23:46	justin_smith	ahh, sorry, there was nothing else in the do block - so it would have maybe run :)
23:46	justin_smith	if there was anythinhg else after it, it would be guaranteed not to
23:46	joshuafcole_	you're right though, I would've just typed do thinking I'd done dorun and been in for a bad time