#clojure – 2014-09-16

2014-09-16

00:50	gzmask	hello guys, what is the clj-http translation of "curl -s https://aaa.com -d "a=b&c=d" ?
00:52	justin_smith	(client/post "https://aaa.com" {:form-params {"a" "b", "c" "d"}})
00:53	justin_smith	also, example.com is the canonical filler url
00:57	gzmask	thanks justin_smith. but paypal doesn't think they are the same :(
01:02	dbasch	gzmask: the user agent obviously is not the same. Does it work with curl and not clj-http?
01:03	gzmask	yes, it worked with curl, but gives RESPMSG=User authentication failed for clj-http
01:04	dbasch	what if you do (client/post "https://aaa.com" {:form-params {:a “b” :c “d”}})
01:05	gzmask	same error. I tried the query-params, no luck either.
01:06	gzmask	it's escaping my "!" char to "%21" . now sure if this cause the error
01:13	gzmask	It did cause the error!! Why in the world would you change ! to %21 ....
02:16	cisza	Hi guys
02:17	seangone	hi cisza !
02:27	raspasov	hello
02:27	noncom	hi
02:28	cisza	what's up guys?
02:29	raspasov	coding :)
02:29	seangone	tends to be quiet in here at night US time :)
02:29	raspasov	yea
02:29	raspasov	I'm SFF
02:29	raspasov	SF*
02:29	seangone	I'm off to The Strange Loop in a few hours...
02:30	raspasov	yea? nice
02:31	seangone	Powered by JavaScript too... should be fun...
02:31	raspasov	what do you mean powered by JavaScript? :)
02:32	seangone	Manning's one day three track conference the day before Strange Loop
02:32	raspasov	ah I see
02:32	seangone	http://www.manning.com/poweredbyjavascript/
02:32	raspasov	any ClojureScript in that?
02:32	seangone	there's a bunch of pre-conference stuff... workshops, future of programming, and pbj :)
02:33	seangone	I was hoping there would be some compile-to-JS stuff but there doesn't seem to be
02:33	seangone	I'm interested in React.js and stuff like that tho'...
02:33	raspasov	yea React is good
02:45	clj-learner	hi, im trying to solve http://www.4clojure.com/problem/82 and having difficulty, this seems like it can be solved with graph theory(?) could someone point me to a tutorial to be able solve this?
02:51	averell	it would be possible. you make edges between words where the distance is 1, then find a hamilton-path (that is a path of all nodes). Pretty sure it's overkill for this though.
02:52	amalloy	heh, looking back at my solution to that problem it's not actually correct
02:52	clj-learner	so how would i solve it?
02:52	averell	do you have distance already? just try all combos
02:53	clj-learner	distance?
02:53	averell	i mean, something to decide if the words are "similar enough"
02:53	amalloy	or, i dunno, maybe it does. the flaw i thought i saw in my algorithm is exercised by the tests
02:54	averell	did you do something clever?
02:54	clj-learner	i did this (fn chain? [s1 s2] (= (inc (count s1))
02:54	clj-learner	(count (union (set s1) (set s2)))))
02:55	averell	ok, that's not enough though
02:56	amalloy	i'm not sure. i compute the degree of each node, and then i assert that there are are at most two nodes with degree less than two. that certainly doesn't sound sufficient to me
02:56	amalloy	seems like i should fail on '(sit sat sot dog)
02:56	averell	ah, that's for euler-path i think :)
02:57	amalloy	averell: well it's not really sufficient in either case, because of disjoint subgraphs
02:57	clj-learner	i think this is probably too much for me, ill just pass this one for now
02:57	clj-learner	i dont know graph theory
02:57	averell	oh right
02:57	clj-learner	at least i completed all other 81
02:57	averell	nice
02:57	clj-learner	thanks for the help
02:59	dbasch	clj-learner: you want to find a Hamiltonian path
03:06	dbasch	amalloy: even with connected subgraphs it's still not sufficient
03:06	amalloy	indeed, it's quite wrong in a lot of ways
03:07	dbasch	that problem should have test cases that forced you to solve it right
03:08	amalloy	dbasch: of course. but it's easy to miss edge cases; 4clojure is littered with such problems
03:08	dbasch	amalloy: for that one it's not hard, just create a couple of evil graphs
03:09	dbasch	e.g. a fork and a join
03:10	amalloy	but that entails thinking of all the hard cases that someone might incorrectly identify with a wonky algorithm. you say "not hard", but of course it's impossible to find a set of inputs that causes only correct algorithms to pass
03:10	amalloy	if nothing else, the standard 4clojure cheat of mapping each input test case directly to its output will always work
03:10	averell	there certainly are drawbacks to posting all test-cases :)
03:11	amalloy	shrug i don't think so, averell. you only cheat yourself when you cheat a 4clojure problem. if that's what gives you satisfaction, feel free. i don't see that as a drawback
03:12	amalloy	and it drastically improves the user experience for the actual target market, ie people trying to learn clojure. imagine "you passed all the test cases you can see, but there's an input i won't tell you about that breaks your program"
03:12	averell	hm true. but i have poor self-control...
03:13	amalloy	there certainly are drawbacks to having no self control
03:13	averell	obviously a problem that should be solved externally.
03:16	dbasch	amalloy: yeah, I was just thinking of cases that would force you to either cheat or try to solve the Hamiltonian path problem
03:19	dbasch	you also learn by breaking other people's solutions :P
03:23	dbasch	I ran into some code that goes (defn foo ^String [^bytes x] ….)
03:24	dbasch	I have no idea what's the intended purpose of ^String there
03:41	cdr_	Hey :)
04:01	SagiCZ1	~lazy-logs
04:01	clojurebot	lazy-logs is http://logs.lazybot.org/
04:12	cdr_	Soo... does some1 chat here ?
04:12	cdr_	Or just come online and leave ?
04:13	TEttinger	when people have questions they usually get answered, cdr_
04:13	cdr_	Ohh, thanks :)
04:13	TEttinger	this is more of a quiet time since most of the US-based people are asleep
04:14	cdr_	Ohh... i am from EU, so this is morning for me :D
04:16	maxthoursie	There's a bunch of EU ppl here too
04:18	hyPiRion	It's usually silent until about 2-4pm EU time, but it varies
04:57	ssideris	EU-based and present! (but yes, usually silent)
05:07	yotsov	If I want to build a clojure webapp with some ajax-like functionality but without clojurescript, are there tools that would be recommended?
05:14	perplexa	do people use System/getenv or weavejester/environ?
05:41	ddellacosta_	perplexa: I like environ, personally
05:42	ddellacosta_	yotsov: the backend wouldn't change (from a typical Clojure web app), and the front-end would be whatever non-CLJS thing you wanted...what are you asking about in particular though? I'm not sure I understand.
05:50	yotsov	ddellacosta_: just wondering if there are things known to work together with examples out there, such as a particular js ajax framework with a particular clojure lib on server side...
05:52	ddellacosta_	yotsov: well, based on my experience with Om, I can tell you that using React with an immutable data structure lib like Mori and a Clojure backend could be a good fit
05:52	ddellacosta_	yotsov: but I will sell ClojureScript a bit--it's quite nice, seriously. :-)
05:54	yotsov	ddellacosta_: thanks. Do you think cljs makes sense even for just like 2 very small ajax-ish features? It would not feel like an overkill?
05:55	ddellacosta_	yotsov: I mean, no, but I use it every day and find it to be "no big deal." Have you done much CLJS?
05:56	ddellacosta_	yotsov: for example, take a look here for something very simple to set up and get going: http://swannodette.github.io/2013/10/27/the-essence-of-clojurescript/
05:56	ddellacosta_	yotsov: apologies if you're beyond that
05:56	borkdude	CLJS makes me less afraid of javascript.
05:56	ddellacosta_	borkdude: ha, never thought of that, but I think that's true for me too
05:57	ddellacosta_	it also makes me more aware of JS's idiosyncracies
05:59	borkdude	Actually I find it quite fun to write front end code now.
05:59	borkdude	although I haven't really got much experience with javascript
06:00	yotsov	ddellacosta_: I am not very familiar with cljs, have just played with it a bit (hello world, a bit of Om). I wanted to postpone learning it, as I have a lot going on right now. But, interestingly enough, it seems that for clojure+ajax it is pretty much the easiest way to start, due to the sheer amount of examples out there
06:01	borkdude	yotsov ajax, look at cljs-http and channels
06:01	ddellacosta_	yotsov: yeah, I would say that it's actually easier in terms of the "impedance mismatch" to get CLJS + CLJ working vs. Clojure and JS
06:01	borkdude	it's also lots easier to just be able to send edn back and forth
06:02	borkdude	haven't tried Transit though
06:05	yotsov	borkdude: If I go the cljs road, I hope to be able to do without channels, just with Om. I actually still have hard time understanding how people mix the two
06:06	yotsov	to me it sounds a bit contradictory, basically injecting mutability into something immutable
06:06	borkdude	yotsov you can also just use a callback, but working with channels and asynchronous is really nice, because you have the illusion that they work synchronously
06:06	borkdude	*requests
06:07	borkdude	yotsov the combination ajax+channels is something apart from Om
06:08	yotsov	borkdude: yes, but it seems to be in fashion to use both channels and Om, which confuses me
06:08	borkdude	yotsov You can use channels with Om to communicate changes to components, like: the request has finished and here are the results, now update yourself
06:09	borkdude	or: update the app state, or whatever
06:09	borkdude	yotsov in this way you can decouple logic from components
06:09	yotsov	wouldn't you rather send the full state of the page to Om then, which would then update just the necessary component?
06:09	yotsov	I see
06:10	borkdude	yotsov to "send the full state" you would first have to update it
06:11	borkdude	for example, I have a function: lookup-items. Its parameter is a channel. It doesn't know where it sends the results, but the component that reads from the channel knows that it should update the app state when something arrives there.
06:11	yotsov	borkdude: in my case, the webapp is fairly simple, and I can have everything the user sees at any point of time in just one data structure. In that case Om is enough and I do not need channels, right?
06:12	borkdude	yotsov you can do everything in one giant component and avoid channels
06:12	yotsov	borkdude: got it, thanks
06:13	ddellacosta_	yotsov: actually Om without channels is a major mess and a pain in the ass, basically impossible if you ask me.
06:13	ddellacosta_	yotsov: no way to effectively communicate back up the component hierarchy
06:13	borkdude	yotsov ddellacosta_ communication upwards happens through channels or handlers
06:14	ddellacosta_	borkdude: yeah, I find using a lot of handlers is more frustrating
06:14	ddellacosta_	...thank channels
06:14	ddellacosta_	than*
06:14	borkdude	yotsov ddellacosta_ but if you have just a small app and every part has access to the whole app-state, you can do without. That's what I meant with "giant"
06:15	ddellacosta_	borkdude: sure, fair enough--if you don't have a deep component stack it's fine, it becomes tricky when you have complicated UI interactions
06:15	borkdude	ddellacosta_ yeah
06:15	yotsov	borkdude ddellacosta_ I think handlers should be fine for me
06:16	ddellacosta_	yotsov: give it a shot, just keep in mind that channels really do help out once communication gets complex--if you find yourself swearing about passing state around, come back and talk to us. ;-)
06:17	borkdude	ddellacosta_ I actually found having many channels wiring component to each other can get complex too. I am now using just one channel and a pub/sub mechanism to keep it simple, where I can, unless the communication is very local.
06:17	ddellacosta_	borkdude: that's a fair point. I have a few components with like six channels, and that really is not nice to keep track of. I guess there's a sweet spot with a few channels.
06:18	ddellacosta_	borkdude: I need to look into something like your pub/sub mechanism, it's become pretty obvious we need something like that to alleviate the pressure in a few spots
06:18	ddellacosta_	"complexity pressure" so to speak
06:18	yotsov	borkdude ddellacosta_ thanks guys, I think I see a bit more clearly now. Can you recommend a sample Om webapp that uses handlers rather than channels?
06:18	borkdude	ddellacosta_ yotsov http://yobriefca.se/blog/2014/06/04/publish-and-subscribe-with-core-dot-asyncs-pub-and-sub/
06:19	ddellacosta_	borkdude: nice, thanks
06:19	cityspirit	yotsov: you could also look at luminus with reagent. with the +cljs option you'll get a template with an example built in. I found that a really easy way to get started with simple clojure app with a clojurescript + react frontend.
06:19	ddellacosta_	borkdude: oh, but that has no Om, sad. Well, still, good tip
06:20	ddellacosta_	(we're using pub/sub elsewhere not just with Om yet)
06:20	borkdude	ddellacosta_ in Om I have two channels in global state: one event-ch to write to and one event-publication to subscribe to.
06:20	borkdude	ddellacosta_ the rest is very easy to figure out, once you read the blog post
06:20	ddellacosta_	borkdude: and then if a child component needs to talk to a parent, the parent just listens on that topic basically, right?
06:20	ddellacosta_	...and child sends on that topic? That could work really well, hmm
06:21	borkdude	ddellacosta_ that's what I meant with "local", if it's just a parent-child relationship, I will sometimes still use a dedicated channel, but you could do it with pub sub also
06:21	ddellacosta_	borkdude: gotcha
06:22	ddellacosta_	that along with shared data is our biggest problem
06:22	borkdude	ddellacosta_ shared data?
06:23	ddellacosta_	borkdude: yeah, if you have a bit of data that needs to be used in child components pretty deep in the stack. I have used shared a bit, but it doesn't seem to update in the way I need it to--so I end up putting stuff in state or app data
06:23	borkdude	ddellacosta_ you can also use pub sub for this
06:24	ddellacosta_	borkdude: well, but then I have to manage updates myself somehow
06:24	borkdude	in IWillMount you put a go loop that reads from the subscription
06:24	ddellacosta_	borkdude: I want to leverage React/Om's update mechanisms as much as possible
06:25	borkdude	ddellacosta_ it depends on what the data is. it could be something worthy of the app-state
06:25	yotsov	Om examples without core.async seem to be as common as clojure ajax examples without cljs :) I guess I should not try kicking against the pricks and go with Om + core.async channels...
06:25	ddellacosta_	borkdude: that's the thing, it usually is--it's just not in the right form, or it needs to be referenced deep in the hierarchy, so a child has to have a copy of something that has effectively been "stirpped out" by that point
06:25	ddellacosta_	*stripped
06:25	borkdude	ddellacosta_ if you do a go loop in will-mount that reads from the right subscription and updates it's local state, the component will re-render
06:26	ddellacosta_	borkdude: yeah, but again, I don't want to have to do that--I do stuff like that now
06:27	borkdude	ddellacosta_ then pass it down the hierarchy with state. I don't know other options so far, sorry. My time with Om has been limited to a few weeks now :)
06:27	ddellacosta_	borkdude: no, we do that too...again, though, it is usually app data that we are abusing. I do like to keep state and app data appropriately separate.
06:27	ddellacosta_	borkdude: I mean, yeah, everything you're suggesting makes sense, I think this is a limitation in Om right now is all
06:28	borkdude	ddellacosta_ actually, I'm rewriting an app now that "abused" the app state to store component state
06:28	ddellacosta_	ha
06:28	ddellacosta_	"Abusing State for Fun and Profit with Om," my new ebook
06:28	borkdude	ddellacosta_ in order to make components re-usable, it should not depend on the app state too much
06:28	yotsov	ddellacosta_ borkdude there are several alternatives to Om for using react.js. Are you guys familiar with them? Is any of them simpler than Om and making using core.async more optional?
06:29	ddellacosta_	yotsov: a lot of folks seem to like reagent, and say it is simpler, per what cityspirit was saying above
06:29	borkdude	yotsov I hear reagent is simpler, but I don't know its limitations, my only experience is with Om really
06:30	yotsov	borkdude: ddellacosta_: thank you!
06:31	ddellacosta_	yotsov: my sense is that it's easier to get going but (this is a guess, I don't know for sure) harder to build out bigger systems with--Om's rigidity also helps enforce some good practices, not withstanding its weak points
06:31	ddellacosta_	...which makes it easier to build big complex web apps (as we have done)
06:32	ddellacosta_	but again, that's not really fair to reagent, since I have barely touched it; it could be equally good, I need to give it a shot
06:32	borkdude	ddellacosta_ is what you want a shared local state between parent and childs?
06:32	yotsov	ddellacosta_: thanks. I need to build just a small demo that will never become more than that
06:32	ddellacosta_	borkdude: no, I basically want to be able to restructure app data and re-attach things at various points/drop new cursors in at various points
06:33	ddellacosta_	re-attach things = re-attach different pieces of app data
06:34	ddellacosta_	maybe shared can do it, but my recent experiences suggest it doesn't update as predictably as I need it to, not like app-data/state
06:34	borkdude	so for example, app-state: {:foo {:bar :baz}}, parent component has cursor too app-state, child component gets cursor into :bar, but his child component needs :foo again?
06:38	ddellacosta_	borkdude: (assuming app-state in your example is app data, not component local state, to be clear)
06:38	borkdude	ddellacosta_ yes
06:38	ddellacosta_	borkdude: yeah, or more like I have {:foo [{:id 1 ...}{:id 2 ...}] :bar [...other relevant data...]} and I use build-all on :foo, and I need :bar also in each :foo
06:39	borkdude	I'm guessing that is not how react works: you can't re-render a child without re-rendering the parent maybe?
06:39	ddellacosta_	borkdude: no, you can totally re-render a child without re-rendering the parent...if your data is structured correctly
06:40	ddellacosta_	borkdude: that's the point of the virtual DOM really
06:40	borkdude	ddellacosta_ ok, could be, I don't know :)
06:40	ddellacosta_	borkdude: well, if you've only been using it a few weeks, then I'm still impressed with your knowledge of Om. ;-)
06:40	borkdude	ddellacosta_ I've been asking a lot of dumb questions in #clojurescript ;)
06:41	ddellacosta_	borkdude: jeez, I should be hanging out there, I'm never in there
06:47	borkdude	ddellacosta_ so basically, the whole parent-child structure makes no sense in re-rendering. Each component should just be able to pick what to subscribe to in the app-state?
06:47	ddellacosta_	borkdude: no, it totally makes sense I think--it's just that I want to be able to restructure the data itself, or pass different bits around so they are reintegrated later, at certain points in the component hierarchy. I find this hard to do now in Om.
06:47	borkdude	ddellacosta_ you can just pass (dissoc cursor :foo :bar) to the components, but probably that's not what you want either
06:47	ddellacosta_	borkdude: well, but what if I want those things later on down the chain?
06:47	borkdude	ddellacosta_ oops, I mean the opposite of dissoc, only select those two keys
06:47	yocapybara	any emacs/cider whizzes here? I'm finding I'm working in a certain way and it feels like it isn't optimal, just wanted to check with others whether they do a similar thing or if they (as I suspect) do something much smarter
06:48	ddellacosta_	borkdude: oh, yeah, but again--what about all the stuff it's leaving off, and what if it's a build-all?
06:48	ddellacosta_	yocapybara: I've gone back and forth between cider and just having a repl open w/emacs separate
06:48	borkdude	ddellacosta_ often I don't use build-all, but just map
06:49	ddellacosta_	borkdude: to be fair, that's all build-all is
06:49	borkdude	(map #(om/build ... cursor {:opts {:foo %)}) [1 2 3 4])
06:49	ddellacosta_	yocapybara: sorry, not a super useful answer. Some folks I know are really brilliant with loading and running stuff in cider, but I think it takes some practice. :-/
06:50	ddellacosta_	borkdude: opts means it's not going to trigger a re-render though.
06:50	borkdude	ddellacosta_ it's not the same, because in my map example the children get acces to the whole cursor
06:50	ddellacosta_	borkdude: yeah, I mean, that's one solution
06:50	borkdude	ddellacosta_ yeah, whatever, could be :state as well :)
06:51	ddellacosta_	borkdude: it's tough though, if you want to build individual elements and take advantage of keys and whatnot
06:51	yocapybara	ddellacosta_: any info is useful man, thanks! I'm finding that I copy or (C-c M-p) each expression into the REPL buffer so I can play around with my code, if I execute an expression it doesn't seem to be executed in the actual repl buffer even if I've got one running. I feel like I'm missing something about how it works - like there should be a very easy way to issue a command to have the REPL run all the expressions in
06:51	yocapybara	my buffer.
06:51	yocapybara	I've had good luck with lighttable but I wanted to give emacs/cider a proper go
06:52	borkdude	ddellacosta_ I think we need concrete cases to talk about.
06:53	borkdude	ddellacosta_ but I'm very interested, because these are the problems I also deal with \
06:55	apod	yocapybara: you probably need to switch the namespace, try C-c M-n
06:55	ddellacosta_	borkdude: yeah, I'm probably not explaining it well, sorry. I have to put some solid examples together that really expose these confusing points, 'cause I run into them a lot day-to-day
06:57	apod	yocapybara: to evaluate the buffer C-c C-k
06:59	yocapybara	apod: thanks, this is exactly what I was missing and I hadn't put the pieces together - have just tried it and that's doing exactly what I was missing
07:00	yocapybara	apod: thanks loads :)
07:00	apod	yocapybara: also you can evaluate an expression under the point with C-c C-e (or C-c C-c to evaluate the top level form under point) and see the result on the minibuffer
07:03	yocapybara	apod: thanks also for that - I was doing that but I think perhaps due to not switching the namespace it seemed like anything I had previously executed with C-c C-e wasn't accessible. But having switched the namespace all clicks into place. I should have realised but didn't. Thanks! :) closer to clojure nirvana
07:05	yotsov	ddellacosta_: borkdude: my first attempt will be to use this approach https://github.com/yogthos/reagent-example (corresponding blog post http://getprismatic.com/story/1405451329953 ), It looks so simple and accessible and great that I got high on adrenaline+endorphin combo like in my early clojure days :)
07:06	ddellacosta_	yotsov: awesome, whatever keeps the enthusiasm going. :-)
07:06	borkdude	yotsov :)
07:45	lvh	In clojure.test, how do I test multiple predicates, but retain useful error messages?
07:46	lvh	currently I'm doing (and (p? example) (q? example)) which results in totally useless error messages :(
07:56	hyPiRion	lvh: I usually `(do (is (p? example)) (is (q? example)))`
07:56	hyPiRion	at least then you know which one failed
09:09	piranha	I wonder if anybody has some code to generate simplest documentation for a liberator-based API? It seems there are no ready tools for that so I'll have to invent something...
09:20	CookedGryphon	what's the best way to do distinct? on a collection?
09:20	CookedGryphon	where the collection might be empty
09:20	CookedGryphon	best I can come up with so far is (apply distinct? :unlikely/ham coll)
09:21	CookedGryphon	otherwise I get an error with empty collections and have to do a separate check
09:21	TimMc	File a JIRA, wait, and sob.
09:22	TimMc	Mourn for http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1179
09:22	CookedGryphon	ffs
09:23	TimMc	srsly
09:23	TimMc	It's shit like this...
09:23	justin_smith	,(map (fnil #(apply distinct? %) [0]) (map seq [[] [:a] [:a :a] [:a :b :c]])) ; CookedGryphon
09:23	clojurebot	(true true false true)
09:24	justin_smith	unless you want (distinct? []) to be false, then change the last arg of fnil to [0 0]
09:25	justin_smith	sadly fnil only does its magic if the input is coerced via seq before you use it
09:29	CookedGryphon	justin_smith: yeah, it's still a bit messy though
09:29	CookedGryphon	feels a bit more professional than my :ham version :P
09:31	justin_smith	(defn distinctish? [& args] (or (empty? args) (apply distinct? args)))
09:31	justin_smith	another option
09:32	justin_smith	that's likely the clean one ... or (and args (apply distinct? args))
09:33	CookedGryphon	yeah, that's what I've done
09:33	CookedGryphon	just defined the less stupid distinct? function
09:33	dnolen_	(defn distinct-coll [coll] (reduce (fn [s x] (if (contains? s x) (reduced false) (conj s x))) #{} coll))
09:34	CookedGryphon	It would make some amount of sense if it errored out on one argument as well
09:34	CookedGryphon	but apparently that's fine
09:36	CookedGryphon	can anyone offer any sort of explanation as to why it would be undesirable behaviour to return true rather than explode?
09:37	CookedGryphon	one single example of where it's not correct behaviour to just return true for the zero arity version
09:37	xemdetia	I don't think there is an opposing argument CookedGryphon
09:38	xemdetia	if you have variable length arguments surely you must handle gracefully a case where no arguments are passed
09:38	CookedGryphon	sorry, not in here, but on the jira ticket linked earlier apparently the change was rejected by rich
09:39	xemdetia	did anyone follow up with Rich?
09:39	CookedGryphon	not sure, all I have is the info on the ticket http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1179
09:40	xemdetia	I saw the ticket a while ago but it's clearly a sore point
09:40	xemdetia	that's why I asked if anyone followed up
09:46	dnolen_	CookedGryphon: xemdetia: likely not considered that important, also there are other fns with the exact same "problem" i.e. =, <, etc.
09:47	xemdetia	ah
09:47	CookedGryphon	dnolen_: I'm not sure it's as clear cut with = and <
09:47	xemdetia	still I think it's one of those
09:48	xemdetia	variable # arity functions should do something other then exceptions
09:48	xemdetia	when passed 0 args
09:48	CookedGryphon	there's an equal argument for true and false with = and not=, it's undefined i would say...
09:48	dnolen_	CookedGryphon: anyways, clearly there are more nuances none which are in the ticket
09:55	justin_smith	xemdetia: what about / ?
09:55	justin_smith	,(/ 2)
09:55	clojurebot	1/2
09:55	justin_smith	,(/)
09:55	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core//>
09:55	justin_smith	,(/ 1 2 3) ; for good measure
09:55	clojurebot	1/6
09:56	justin_smith	I guess (/) could return NaN
09:56	xemdetia	justin_smith, I wouldn't normally consider / a variable length argument
09:56	justin_smith	but it is!
09:56	xemdetia	it is clearly :)
10:04	xemdetia	I guess I have to adjust my expectation, but so I will reduce it to still believing vararity -? functions should handle a 0 case. A query against an empty set still should provide a meaningful result, even if it's NOSETSILLY
10:07	CookedGryphon	but yeah, especially for distinct, it's really cut and dry. It currently does not perform the function described in its docstring "Returns true if no two of the arguments are =", point at the two arguments which are equal in (distinct?) and (distinct? 1)
10:11	bja	I should start returning 'NOTSETSILLY instead of nil for the 0 case
10:11	bja	with a link to this irc history
10:11	TimMc	dnolen_: I've never heard rhickey give nuance on tickets regarding base cases.
10:12	TimMc	I have to assume he just doesn't see the problem.
10:13	dnolen_	TimMc: I also don't see the problem unless there's some larger discussion about apply not working on empty collections.
10:13	dnolen_	for many fns.
10:13	TimMc	What do you mean?
10:13	TimMc	&(apply + [])
10:13	TimMc	Oh, not apply, but the fns themselves.
10:14	xemdetia	well it should be well-defined that it's going to error out so we don't have to point to some obscure Jira issue
10:14	dnolen_	,(apply = [])
10:14	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core/=>
10:14	dnolen_	,(apply < [])
10:14	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core/<>
10:15	xemdetia	numeric functions make sense to fail, I now reduce my argument to only predicate functions (-?)
10:15	TimMc	I don't think there's much to discuss -- base cases need to be defined unless there's a compelling reason not to. I mean it's a Lisp ffs. You'd think we'd get recursive base cases correct. :-/
10:16	TimMc	But all I get from JIRA is... "nah".
10:16	dnolen_	xemdetia: they do not make sense to fail
10:16	dnolen_	,(apply + [])
10:16	clojurebot	0
10:16	dnolen_	,(apply * [])
10:16	clojurebot	1
10:17	dnolen_	people can keep pretending like there a simpler answer here
10:17	dnolen_	or just write distinct-coll? and move on
10:17	TimMc	To the extent that there needs to be a larger discussion, it's "why do so many reasonable patches get rejected without comment?"
10:18	justin_smith	TimMc: meanwhile, Hickey is all like "let them eat transducers"
10:18	TimMc	(I am fine with comments like "we don't need that feature in core", that's a perfectly reasonable judgement call to make, even if I disagree sometimes.)
10:30	mavbozo	in leiningen :repl-options, the :ack-port is used for what?
10:31	borkdude	piranha I have seen a presentation on someone who used Swagger in combination with Liberator. That might be interesting for you?
10:31	piranha	borkdude: for sure!
10:31	borkdude	piranha it was at Euroclojure 2014. The video might be up
10:31	piranha	I'll look for that, thanks
10:32	borkdude	piranha http://vimeo.com/100485830
10:32	mavbozo	i couldn't find the description for :ack-port in leiningen sample project here https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj
10:32	piranha	borkdude: thanks :)
10:32	mavbozo	but :ack-port is used in leiningen.repl
10:33	corecode_	hi
10:33	corecode_	i think i found a bug in 4clojure or clojail, but i'm new to clojure and might be wrong
10:34	hyPiRion	mavbozo: ack-port is used to decide which port the acknowledgement from the repl server is sent/received
10:34	corecode_	anybody like to indulge in following the issue?
10:34	hyPiRion	It's then used to generate e.g. .nrepl-port and similar
10:34	hyPiRion	~anyone
10:34	clojurebot	anyone is anybody
10:34	hyPiRion	~anybody
10:34	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
10:34	corecode_	https://www.4clojure.com/problem/21 <- if you supply (fn [[h &t]] 1), it complains about nth being used
10:35	corecode_	hyPiRion: finger reflexes?
10:35	borkdude	piranha sorry, no liberator in it, but still interesting ;)
10:35	corecode_	hyPiRion: did you read what i wrote before?
10:36	tbaldridge	corecode_: yeah, I think the destructuring is calling nth
10:36	corecode_	tbaldridge: ah, not in my clojure
10:36	tbaldridge	,(macroexpand ,(let [[x y] (range 2)] x))
10:36	clojurebot	0
10:36	tbaldridge	,(macroexpand '(let [[x y] (range 2)] x))
10:36	clojurebot	(let* [vec__52 (range 2) x (clojure.core/nth vec__52 0 nil) y ...] x)
10:36	hyPiRion	corecode_: right, just saying that people would reply if they know the answer :) It's not always easy to say "I'll help" if they don't know the problem
10:37	tbaldridge	corecode_: see my example there, it is calling nth via the let macro. So 4clojure is probably mocking out nth to make sure you're not calling it. But you are, just via a macro
10:37	corecode_	hyPiRion: i think mindlessly doing the ~anybody is as bad as mindlessly asking such questions the bot refered to
10:37	jcsims	I've got a friend who wants to participate in the clojure cup with me, but is not familiar with clojure (he's comfortable in haskell). Any recommendations for someone coming to clojure from haskell?
10:38	corecode_	tbaldridge: (macroexpand (read-string "(fn [[h & t]] h)"))
10:38	corecode_	(fn* ([p__978] (clojure.core/let [[h & t] p__978] h)))
10:38	corecode_	different clojure, i guess
10:38	tbaldridge	corecode_: that only macro expands a single form, you'd want something like macro expand all.
10:38	corecode_	aha!
10:38	corecode_	thanks
10:38	tbaldridge	corecode_: your let inside the fn hasn't been expanded to let*
10:39	corecode_	right
10:39	piranha	borkdude: indeed, just watched slides. fnhouse-swagger is 54 lines, so maybe it won't be very hard to swaggerize my bidi + liberator setup...
10:41	corecode_	hyPiRion: wouldn't you agree?
10:42	ncthom91	hey y'all. Can I define a map literal where one of hte keys is a local variable?
10:43	ncthom91	{ my-var "val" } ?
10:43	ncthom91	oh nvm, that works :P
10:45	hyPiRion	corecode_: I'm not saying it's bad to ask for help in that way, neither does the bot. It's just very common that new people ask "does anybody want to help me?", in which the reply rate is significantly lower than if you just ask the question itself
10:45	mavbozo	hyPiRion: why leiningen.repl creates another nrepl-server just to handle ack replies from the nrepl-server it creates?
10:47	hyPiRion	mavbozo: No, it creates only a single nrepl-server. Let me see if I can explain
10:48	mavbozo	hyPiRion: thanks
10:48	corecode_	hyPiRion: what i'm saying is that it is bad to type ~anybody as a reflex to seeing the word
10:49	dbasch	I saw this code: (defn foo ^String [^bytes x] ….) <- is there something I'm missing or the ^String does nothing?
10:49	justin_smith	dbasch: it means foo returns String right? or is that the wrong place for that metadata?
10:50	dbasch	justin_smith: thst would be (defn ^String foo …)
10:50	justin_smith	in that case, I would guess it was a typo, and they were trying to do that
10:51	dbasch	justin_smith: it's interesting that it compiles quietly
10:51	hyPiRion	corecode_: Sure, but that wasn't what I did (or at least not what I was trying to convey). You asked if anybody wanted to indulge in the issue, which most people won't reply to
10:51	justin_smith	dbasch: well, it's not an error to add metadata to whatever silly thing you want to put it on
10:52	justin_smith	I guess that is putting metadata on the args vec?
10:52	cocquecigrue	has anyone ever had issues testing monger code in tests? I have a weird issue where when I run tests in the repl it works fine, the app itself works fine but when I use lein test it fails with nullpointerexception
10:53	cocquecigrue	i use clojure.test
10:53	justin_smith	cocquecigrue: the first thing I would suspect is that you are using something like map, where the result is forced in the repl but not in your code
10:54	dbasch	justin_smith: I suppose, but how would you even access that metadata?
10:54	justin_smith	dbasch: I don't think you could
10:54	cocquecigrue	justin_smith: what do you mean by map?
10:54	cocquecigrue	wait a second I push my code to github
10:54	justin_smith	cocquecigrue: the function map, which is lazy, but will seem not to be lazy in the repl because the print stage forces the result
10:55	justin_smith	cocquecigrue: but yeah, push your code, that will help
10:55	cocquecigrue	https://github.com/joelmarty/bonjour-compojure/blob/master/src/bonjour_compojure/database.clj
10:56	cocquecigrue	so the idea is to store the db object in an atom
10:56	cocquecigrue	when I call the init function
10:56	justin_smith	cocquecigrue: why would (:mongo-host (io/resource "app.edn")) return anything but nil?
10:57	justin_smith	oh, sorry, "defconfig", I missed that
10:57	cocquecigrue	that's the first thing i looked into :)
10:58	cocquecigrue	you can check the test in test/database
11:00	justin_smith	list-empty? is oddly named
11:00	justin_smith	it tests the reverse of that, right?
11:01	cocquecigrue	I don't use that yet
11:01	cocquecigrue	so it doesn't really matter
11:01	justin_smith	why do you nest use-fixtures inside deftest?
11:01	justin_smith	I don't know if that works, but I have never used it that way
11:01	justin_smith	it works just fine as a top level form
11:01	cocquecigrue	that's how the doc says to use it
11:02	justin_smith	weird
11:02	justin_smith	I have only used it as a top level form, and it works
11:03	cocquecigrue	when I use https://github.com/joelmarty/bonjour-compojure/blob/master/src/bonj
11:03	cocquecigrue	oops
11:03	cocquecigrue	when I use clojure.test/run-tests 'namespace in the repl it works just fine
11:04	cocquecigrue	but when I use it through lein that fails because the atom that holds the db is nil
11:04	cocquecigrue	so I guess the issue is not from the test but from the interaction with lein
11:05	cocquecigrue	maybe it's related to my environment i don't know
11:05	justin_smith	cocquecigrue: use-fixtures is a side-effecting function that changes how all functions in an ns are run, putting it inside a test makes no sense
11:05	cocquecigrue	how would you use it?
11:05	justin_smith	it is global, it does not modify the current scoped test definition, it alters all tests in the ns
11:05	cocquecigrue	you said to use it as a top form, what did you mean with that?
11:06	justin_smith	(use-fixtures :once f) will wrap all tests in one invocation of f
11:06	justin_smith	top level means not inside any other definition
11:06	cocquecigrue	ok
11:06	justin_smith	at the top level of the namespace
11:06	justin_smith	because it is a function that modifies the whole namespace
11:07	justin_smith	I think you would want (use-fixtures :each f) for your example
11:07	cocquecigrue	no I just want to create the db, run all the db-related tests and destroy it
11:07	justin_smith	OK
11:07	cocquecigrue	aaaaaaaaaaaah
11:08	justin_smith	then yeah, :once is fine
11:08	cocquecigrue	and it works
11:08	justin_smith	right, I told you you were using use-fixtures wrong
11:08	cocquecigrue	I must have misunderstood the doc, thank you :)
11:08	cocquecigrue	kudos
11:09	nburtsev	Hello
11:09	justin_smith	hi
11:09	nburtsev	user=> (defn test2 [] (prn "hello") (map (fn [[k v]] (prn k "-" v)) {:test "test" :test2 "test2"}) (when-not false (prn "hello2")))
11:09	nburtsev	#'user/test2
11:09	nburtsev	user=> (test2)
11:09	nburtsev	"hello"
11:09	nburtsev	"hello2"
11:09	nburtsev	anyone knows why map is not running ?
11:09	justin_smith	map is lazy
11:10	agarman	(doall ...
11:10	justin_smith	if you want it to run for side effects use dorun on it, or use doseq instead of map
11:10	agarman	or that
11:10	justin_smith	agarman: doall is pointless if you are not using the return value
11:10	justin_smith	it just generates garbage
11:11	justin_smith	doall is for when you need to force evaluation within a specific scope
11:11	nburtsev	thanks a lot!
11:12	nburtsev	it was starting to hurt my brain :\
11:12	justin_smith	laziness is weird (it also creates weird stack traces sometimes)
11:22	perplexa	is (let [x []]) preferable over (let [])
11:22	borkdude	Is it possible in Om to inspect the state of children components? I have a form with fields that have local state :valid? and I want to "calculate" if the form as a whole is valid
11:22	perplexa	is (let [x []]) preferable over (let [x (vector)]) ?
11:22	justin_smith	yes
11:22	perplexa	ty
11:22	clgv	perplexa: is a matter of taste I guess - in the minimal case you posted [] is awful ;)
11:23	clgv	perplexa: but usually [a b ...] is pretty concise
11:23	perplexa	well i need an empty vector to which i conj later :P
11:24	borkdude	I could solve this with callbacks, but it really seems overhead to me
11:24	justin_smith	perplexa: usually, I find putting [] directly at the site of usage makes more sense than binding it to some symbol and using the symbol
11:27	clgv	borkdude: I have no idea about Om, but couldnt those components just implement a protocol where you can ask them "(valid? child)"?
11:27	perplexa	justin_smith: yeah i prefer it too tbh :)
11:28	clgv	lol yeah, since [] already is that symbol when you think about it ;)
11:28	justin_smith	if I am binding [], that would be in an atom or agent
11:28	justin_smith	clgv: indeed
11:29	borkdude	clgv don't know if this is possible
11:29	clgv	borkdude: me neither, it's just a general strategy where you do not have to know about the state which works often in general ;)
11:34	agarman	@justin_smith yeah I didn't read his example completely... missed that he was only doing prn
11:52	pjstadig	any opinions experience around sending a schema definition over the wire as data (Clojure->ClojureScript), reading it in as data, then using it to validate something ClojureScript side?
11:54	noonian	i think more commonly you would just use the same source file client and server side using cljx
11:54	schmir	pjstadig: why not? I'm doing something similar with clojure on both sides
11:55	noonian	you'd have to make sure they are serializable
11:55	pjstadig	noonian: we want to describe services and their data in a generic way, we don't know the schema ahead of time
11:55	noonian	ah, i see
11:55	pjstadig	the service would send a schema over the wire that could be used to construct a UI and validate before submitting a request
11:57	clgv	pjstadig: you might have to define a schema data since some constructs are not EDN serializable (if that is a requirement), e.g. regexps...
12:06	pjstadig	clgv: the challenge is that s/Str resolves to either java.lang.String or a javascript string and gets printed out in a way that cannot be read in the same with both Clojure and ClojureScript, most of the other stuff like vectors and sets seem to be fine
12:07	clgv	pjstadig: yeah and regexps are problematic ;)
12:07	pjstadig	so we're thinking of defining a deftype that represents a string, extending the schema protocol to it, defining its print method, and defining a data reader that we can use to write/read the schema as edn
12:08	clgv	sounds reaonable
12:21	radix	there's no insert operation for vectors, right? just double-checking my reading :)
12:23	justin_smith	radix: only append
12:23	justin_smith	radix: maybe you want a finger-tree
12:23	justin_smith	https://github.com/clojure/data.finger-tree
12:24	radix	oh, I see that hyPiRion is here. I actually got confused because his blog post (ostensibly about clojure vectors) talks about efficient insertion, but I guess that's not a property of clojure's vectors
12:24	radix	justin_smith: oh cool
12:24	justin_smith	efficient insertion, but only at the end :)
12:26	hyPiRion	radix: Hrm, where do I talk about that? Because that's wrong, and I should change the wording if you belived that
12:26	hyPiRion	Apologies for the confusion
12:26	radix	hyPiRion: I guess I just assumed mentions of "insertion" are the generalized case of insertion, not just appending.
12:27	radix	hyPiRion: by the way, thank you for writing that series, it's very very good :)
12:27	hyPiRion	radix: Ah, right. I should clarify that I mean appends. And thanks! :)
12:28	clgv	radix: you found bad wording there ;)
12:30	radix	finger trees look cool.
12:33	dnolen_	radix: there's also rrb-trees, they are available for both Clojure/ClojureScript
12:34	noonian	you could also just use a hashmap
12:35	dnolen_	radix: rrb-trees have the same api as vectors and can be used in their stead
12:37	radix	that's cool, I'll look at those too.
12:56	lodin	There's no harm in firing up lots of go blocks, right?
12:59	bendlas	lodin: not for your thread count, if that's what you mean
12:59	clojer_	Compiling my cljs file produces: "Invalid token: :America/North_Dakota/Beulah" but this map key causes no errors when I test it in an Emacs cider repl.
12:59	bendlas	you'll eventually run out of memory though
13:01	bendlas	clojer_: hm, looks like symbols with more than one / are not allowed in cljs. They are definitely allowed in clj. dnolen_ do you know about this?
13:01	clgv	lodin: you won't be able to sell it as "Green IT" ;) :P
13:01	clojer_	bendlas: Token originates from tzinfo so I need to keep it exactly as is.
13:02	lodin	bendlas: Sure. Memory is a cap. But that I don't think I have to worry about.
13:02	perplexa	mmh, i have a vector and want to append to that vector for each item in a different list with conj. i assumed it would change the referenced vector but didn't. what i got is: (doseq [source-cfg sources-cfg] (conj sources (source-tap (key source-cfg) (val source-cfg)))) - how do i get conj to append to the existing vector repeatedly?
13:02	justin_smith	clojer_: why not use it as a string?
13:02	bendlas	clojer_: maybe not save it into a keyword? seems wrong.
13:02	justin_smith	or a symbol
13:02	lodin	clgv: I'll have to find another angle then. ;-)
13:03	clgv	perplexa: persistent datastructures!
13:03	justin_smith	,(get {"a" 0} "a") ; the syntax is a little funkier, but it works
13:03	clojurebot	0
13:03	perplexa	,(let x [] (conj x "1") x)
13:03	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: let requires a vector for its binding in sandbox:, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_FILE:0:0)>
13:03	clgv	clgv: you need `reduce`
13:03	perplexa	,(let [x []] (conj x "1") x)
13:03	clojurebot	[]
13:03	perplexa	how do i make that return 1?
13:03	perplexa	[1] to be precise
13:04	clojer_	bendlas: Do you mean use a string as a map key instead?
13:04	justin_smith	perplexa: as clgv said, use reduce
13:04	bendlas	,[(namespace :name/space/name) (name :name/space/name)] <- also consider this
13:04	clojurebot	["name" "space/name"]
13:04	clgv	perplexa: please do read some introductory material on clojure since you fail the simplest basics
13:04	justin_smith	clojer_: no, use a string as the key
13:04	perplexa	clgv: i know :P
13:04	perplexa	thx
13:04	bendlas	clojer_: yes, string is the way to go
13:04	perplexa	i know about macros though :D
13:05	perplexa	i'm actually just learning it by implementing a project
13:06	clojer_	bendlas: OK. The map is very large so will it impact performance significantly using strings?
13:06	clgv	perplexa: you'll have much quicker learning progress if you read either one of the online available introductions or a book while implementing that project
13:07	bendlas	clojer_: probably not, the map entry is found by hash anyway
13:07	perplexa	clgv: well i do that, too.
13:07	perplexa	but i honestly don't get how to use reduce in that case.
13:08	bendlas	clojer_: if you want to make sure to have no performance impact, intern the strings
13:08	bendlas	but shouldn't be nessecary at all
13:08	clgv	perplexa: then read up on reduce ;)
13:08	perplexa	at it
13:11	perplexa	clojurebot: so reduce + fn + conj it is :P
13:11	clojurebot	Ok.
13:11	perplexa	oh dude left :)
13:12	bendlas	perplexa: I think your case is served by into
13:12	bendlas	,(into [1 2 3] (list 4 5 6))
13:12	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4 5 ...]
13:13	bendlas	just make sure that you always go ahead with the return value (same as with conj)
13:13	bendlas	into is essentially (reduce conj to from)
13:14	perplexa	thx
13:15	bendlas	_the_ central value proposition of clojure is that functions like conj _never_ mutate in-place
13:17	lodin	perplexa: Beware that conj depends on the data type though.
13:17	lodin	,(into (seq [1 2 3]) (list 4 5 6))
13:17	clojurebot	(6 5 4 1 2 ...)
13:21	perplexa	lodin: yeah i read about that.
13:29	dnolen_	bendlas: "'/' has special meaning, it can be used once in the middle of a symbol to separate the namespace from the name"
13:29	dnolen_	bendlas: http://clojure.org/reader
13:29	dnolen_	bendlas: it's not clear to me that means / can be used multiple times even though the reader implementation may allow it
13:31	bendlas	dnolen_: ok, question rephrased: is that incompatibility with clojure intentional? Schould we harmonize behavior in either direction?
13:32	dnolen_	bendlas: I don't see a need to harmonize an implementation detail w/o asking on clojure-dev what is intended
13:33	Bronsa	AFAIK some-ns// is the only valid symbol that can have multiple "/"
13:34	hlprmnky_	I have myself confused about a simple syntax question and cannot see what I’m doing wrong - I’m binding a java class inside a let form, and the thing I get in the form reports itself as a class, but calling ‘new’ on it is passing the bound name to ‘new’ instead of the class symbol
13:35	hlprmnky_	e.g. (let [class java.lang.String] class) returns java.lang.String, but (let [class java.lang.String] (new class)) throws a CompilationException that the class ‘class’ cannot be found
13:35	bendlas	Bronsa: is that your interpretation of the reader doc?
13:35	hyPiRion	,'_//_
13:35	hlprmnky_	I have searched many permutations of germane terms, read docs on java interop, and I still don’t see what I’m doing wrong htere
13:35	clojurebot	_//_
13:35	hlprmnky_	there*
13:35	bendlas	hlprmnky_: new is a special form, that only works with literal classes
13:36	hyPiRion	It's strange stuff.
13:36	hyPiRion	,'_//_//_
13:36	clojurebot	_//_//_
13:36	Bronsa	bendlas: no, until 1.4.0 IIRC foo// would throw an exception and only clojure.core// was allowed. then a ticket was made to allow any-ns// that got in, but never has foo/bar/baz been a valid symbol
13:36	bendlas	if you want to instantiate from a class object, you need reflection
13:36	Bronsa	hlprmnky_: new is a special form that doesn't evaluate its first expression, the class name must be literal
13:37	bendlas	,(namespace 'foo/bar/baz)
13:37	clojurebot	"foo"
13:37	hlprmnky_	I see
13:37	bendlas	,(name 'foo/bar/baz)
13:37	clojurebot	"bar/baz"
13:37	bendlas	Bronsa, seems to be valid
13:37	Bronsa	,(symbol "foo bar")
13:37	clojurebot	foo bar
13:37	agarman	name of symbols accounts for the namespace it's in
13:37	agarman	,(name 'foo.bar/baz)
13:37	clojurebot	"baz"
13:37	Bronsa	bendlas: clojure doesn't do much input validation, just because it accepts some inputs doesn't mean they are valid
13:38	bendlas	Bronsa: so what was the ticket to _make_ it valid about?
13:38	hyPiRion	bendlas: defining a function named /
13:38	hyPiRion	in other namespaces other than clojure.core
13:38	Bronsa	bendlas: only symbols whose name is "/"
13:39	bendlas	So that was the only thing, that didn't actually work?
13:39	hyPiRion	that works fine
13:40	hyPiRion	,(defn / [x y] (+ x y))
13:40	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.SecurityException: denied, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
13:40	hyPiRion	except not in clojurebot
13:40	Bronsa	bendlas: right, in 1.4.0 'foo// would cause an exception
13:40	bendlas	or is a working foo/bar/baz a side effect of makeing foo// work?
13:40	bendlas	Bronsa: ok, IC
13:41	Bronsa	bendlas: I suspect that the reader change that made foo// a valid symbol made the reader accept foo/bar/baz aswell, unintentionally
13:42	dnolen_	Bronsa: foo/bar/baz has actually worked for a long time, it's seems like a real ambiguity to me
13:42	agarman	Bronsa: not sure why bar/baz shouldn't be valid
13:43	Bronsa	tools.reader for example doesn't use tha same regex as LispReader.java and errors out when trying to read foo/bar/baz
13:43	bendlas	interesting, so i guess clojure.tools.reader does more input validation; and since that's what cljs uses by now there is this incompatibility
13:43	Bronsa	dnolen_: oh, you're right
13:43	Bronsa	dnolen_: well it's just another case of GIGO
13:45	Bronsa	the docs are explicit about that, so I'm confident in saying that foo/bar/baz is -- and has always been -- invalid
13:46	bendlas	Bronsa: I'm not so sure, stuff like (symbol "foo bar// $#%" "baz//zab") is perfectly valid
13:46	bendlas	there is just no reader syntax for it
13:46	Bronsa	bendlas: it's allowed because there's no validation, but it's not valid
13:47	bendlas	nope, even if there was validation, it should only ever be in the reader
13:47	bendlas	the docs you're referring to are also on a page called /reader
13:48	bendlas	Bronsa: at least that's my firmly held opinion, that constructors for symbol, keyword, ... should do no further validation than to see if namespace and name are strings
13:49	agarman	Bronsa: the docs I'm reading just says that symbols containing / are qualified
13:50	agarman	Bronsa: my understanding of qualified is that the namespace will consume the symbols string to the first / not that there can be no additional /
13:50	bendlas	agarman: well, it says '/' has special meaning, it can be used once in the middle of a symbol
13:50	hyPiRion	The docs are outdated
13:50	bendlas	that can conceivably be interpreted to mean "at most once"
13:51	hyPiRion	There's nothing about quote being a legal part of a symbol on the /reader page.
13:51	agarman	bendlas: the rest of that doc is "to separate the namespace from the name" nothing stating that an additional / can't be used, but it's assumed that it won't have special meaning then
13:52	agarman	not assumed it's explicit that any other / won't have special meaning
13:52	bendlas	agarman: yes, I tend to follow this interpretation. Bronsa seems to be against it and dnolen_ seems to be on the fence and wants it discussed on clojure-dev
13:53	agarman	hyPiRion: (other characters will be allowed eventually, but not all macro characters have been determined) would cover '
13:54	agarman	in that the expected behavior is indeterminate
13:55	Bronsa	bendlas: agarman wrt "foo/bar/baz", as hyPiRion says the clojure.org docs are outdated and open to interpretations, however if you read https://github.com/edn-format/edn#symbols it's clear that "foo/bar/baz" is not valid
13:56	agarman	edn is a data exchange format... it doesn't represent the full capabilities of the reader
13:56	agarman	though I'd agree that they should be fairly consistent
13:56	Bronsa	agarman: I'm well aware of that but I hardly doubt that an edn symbol and a clojure symbol would differ
13:57	bendlas	Bronsa: but they do, ' isn't mentioned in edn symbols either
13:58	bendlas	Bronsa: (edn/read-string "foo'") works though
13:58	Bronsa	bendlas: eh, that's a bug in the spec
13:58	agarman	,(clojure.edn/read-string "foo/bar/baz")
13:58	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.edn>
13:59	agarman	,(require '[clojure.edn :as edn])
13:59	clojurebot	nil
13:59	agarman	,(edn/read-string "foo/bar/baz")
13:59	clojurebot	foo/bar/baz
13:59	agarman	valid is what works
13:59	dnolen_	Bronsa: well I think supporting quirks is OK - but I definitely never thought of foo/bar/baz as being valid
13:59	agarman	docs or code should be fixed though
13:59	dnolen_	agarman: sadly it is not, it's just undefined
13:59	justin_smith	,(edn/read-string "this\nis\nmultiple\lines")
13:59	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unsupported escape character: \l>
13:59	hlprmnky_	Bronsa, bendlas: thanks for the assistance - I was (after only a few moments of slack-jawed disdain) able to use .getConstructor … .newInstance to do what I wanted
13:59	justin_smith	,(edn/read-string "this\nis\nmultiple\nlines")
13:59	clojurebot	this
14:00	hlprmnky_	slack-jawed disdain at the hoops you have to jump through to make Java give you an instance of something via reflection, not at new being a special form :)
14:00	agarman	,(type (edn/read-string "foo/bar/baz/quux/giggle"))
14:00	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Symbol
14:01	bendlas	hlprmnky_: yw
14:01	hyPiRion	that's because
14:01	hyPiRion	,(read-string "foo/bar/baz/quux/giggle")
14:01	clojurebot	foo/bar/baz/quux/giggle
14:02	Bronsa	agarman: bendlas I'm in the difficult position of using an uncomplete/outdated spec as basis of my thesis, but I think the documentation is clear on the foo/bar/baz issue.
14:04	Bronsa	agarman: bendlas paraphrasing, it says "those are the valid characters you can use in a symbol, additionally you can use '/' once in the middle of the symbol", that "once" is definitely "once and only once" if you take into account how it's phrased for '.': "it can be used one or more times in the middle of a symbol"
14:04	bendlas	but why not take a step back, and admit that it should mean, what we want it to mean, with Rich having the last say of course.
14:06	bendlas	Bronsa: yeah, ok, foo/bar/baz really should be disallowed in edn _and_ in the reader, because it's unnessecarily surprising
14:06	bendlas	however, (symbol "foo/bar" "baz") aswell as (symbol "foo" "bar/baz") should be considered valid
14:07	bendlas	(and distinct)
14:11	bendlas	Bronsa, dnolen_, agarman, hyPiRion: unless any of you is already at it, I'll do a writeup to clojure-dev
14:14	Bronsa	bendlas: you might be right about "runtime symbols" not being restricted in the same ways of "reader symbols", I have to say that every time the discussion about (symbol "foo bar") being valid has come up, the consensus has been that it's just a result of GIGO -- go on with a ml writup if you want official answers
14:27	shoepie	any vim users know how to correctly indent .clj files using vim-clojure-static?
14:32	TimMc	,(.newInstance String) ;; hlprmnky: It's easy if you want the nullary constructor.
14:32	clojurebot	""
14:33	hlprmnky	true, but I actually needed a String constructor
14:34	hlprmnky	it’s not so bad, considering, I just don’t have to wander down that deep into the boilerplate mines very often
14:35	amalloy	hlprmnky: clojure.lang.Reflector/invokeConstructor is easier to use
14:36	amalloy	,(let [c java.util.ArrayList] (clojure.lang.Reflector/invokeConstructor c (object-array [10])))
14:36	clojurebot	[]
14:36	amalloy	(that 10 is the initial capacity, so it still just looks like an empty list
14:36	amalloy	)
14:36	hlprmnky	!
14:37	hlprmnky	that is indeed much nicer
14:37	hlprmnky	thanks!
14:44	TimMc	So that's if you only care about dynamic dispatch to a constructor, not static dispatch.
14:44	TimMc	handy
14:47	amalloy	TimMc: indeed, i think it's the same logic that (Foo. x y z) goes through if you don't hint x/y/z
14:48	amalloy	the last time i wanted to reflectively invoke a constructor i wanted to do it multiple times, though, so i ended up saving the Constructor handle to reuse it
14:48	amalloy	the reflector doesn't give you that flexibility
14:48	amalloy	(if you care about performance, anyway)
14:52	upwardindex	I’m getting Unsupported major.minor version 51.0 when trying to lein `cljsbuild once`. Google tells me something about not having the right jdk/jre. Has anyone encountered this?
14:55	amalloy	upwardindex: you're running something compiled against java 7, on a jre 6 or lower
14:55	justin_smith	upwardindex: what does "java -version" return in your shell?
14:56	upwardindex	justin_smith: java version "1.6.0_65" in terminal but in system preferences it says java 1.7something
14:56	justin_smith	upwardindex: then call the 1.7something version, or fix your path so it is before the 1.6
14:57	justin_smith	upwardindex: you can explicitly set the java location via an env var or project.clj setting in lein
14:58	upwardindex	justin_smith: thank you, I’ll look into that
14:58	justin_smith	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj#L259
14:58	justin_smith	example in the above link
15:13	ToxicFrog	Huh.
15:13	ToxicFrog	So I can't use :refer :all even for things that will be released as an uberjar, because the warning messages from the compiler can't be supressed and are emitted when it's run from the jar, too
15:15	noonian	ToxicFrog: you might find slamhound helpful; it will automatically figure out which vars you're using and generate a nice require form for you
15:15	noonian	https://github.com/technomancy/slamhound
15:16	bendlas	ToxicFrog: Don't use :refer :all, only acceptable usage is from a repl session how or why should uberjar protect from its perils?
15:17	bendlas	yeah, slamhound's pretty cool for that
15:18	ToxicFrog	bendlas: I'm :refer :alling core.typed, so that I get all of the typenames in scope, rather than having an ugly mix of naked type names and t/ prefixed type names.
15:18	TimMc	bendlas: It is sometimes appropriate.
15:18	ToxicFrog	However, this also brings in core.typed/for et al which generates the shadowing warnings.
15:18	TimMc	You can exclude that, I think?
15:18	ToxicFrog	I was hoping that the requiring would happen entirely during the compilation process, and thus there would be nothing to warn about during runtime when the jar is executed.
15:19	ToxicFrog	Of course, this doesn't address at all the common case where you want to refer those and quite deliberately shadow the clojure.core versions
15:19	ToxicFrog	AFAICT, in that case, you're just screwed
15:19	TimMc	ToxicFrog: :refer-clojure :exclude
15:20	bendlas	ToxicFrog: yeah, it would be pretty cool for clojure to be able to compile that way
15:20	bendlas	similar to cljs
15:20	bendlas	maybe we'll get there one day, with the lean-compile stuff
15:20	ToxicFrog	TimMc: holy this I did not know about refer-clojure
15:20	ToxicFrog	Thank you
15:24	jlongster	do you have to use a buffer when using a transducer with a channel?
15:31	linman32	hi i have a clojure compile error.
15:31	linman32	http://pastebin.com/ZZFaNFFC
15:32	linman32	the error doesn't seem to point to a specific file though
15:32	ToxicFrog	Welcome to clojure compile errors: abandon every hope, ye that enter
15:33	justin_smith	/tmp/form-init3292773767470107555.clj:1:72 is something your toolchain likely created
15:33	justin_smith	no promises that it is readable...
15:33	justin_smith	the :1:72 mean line 1, character 72
15:33	stompyj	jlongster: I’ve only ever seen it done that way, but I don’t know for sure
15:34	linman32	the file is no longer there
15:34	jlongster	stompyj: I think that's true. reading the source, and it kinda makes sense
15:35	justin_smith	linman32: what did you run when you got that error? lein repl?
15:35	linman32	justin_smith: should i try updating my toolchain? i got leiningen recently. like 3 days ago
15:35	linman32	justin_smith: yes
15:35	justin_smith	was this run from inside a project directory?
15:36	linman32	yes
15:36	justin_smith	can you share your project.clj?
15:36	justin_smith	I suspect a string where there should be a symbol, in either project.clj or your core namespace
15:37	linman32	justin_smith: https://github.com/AustinClojure/groops/blob/master/project.clj
15:38	justin_smith	:init-ns should not be a string, it should be a symbol
15:38	justin_smith	that may be the issue
15:38	justin_smith	(under :profiles / :dev / :repl-options)
15:39	justin_smith	so try taking out the quotation marks, and running lein repl again - that may just fix it
15:40	linman32	wow, seems to be working! that was a nice find
15:41	caldiar	New to clojure and was wondering if it's considered "proper" clojure to make use of records rather than maps. Or are records/protocols there to make transitioning to clojure easier for people used to object-oriented design?
15:41	linman32	justin_smith: how did you find it so fast?
15:41	justin_smith	linman32: those temp files are created based on the contents of project.clj
15:42	justin_smith	the error was string could not be cast to symbol
15:43	justin_smith	so I looked for strings that should not be strings, it's a small file
15:43	justin_smith	double checked with the lein example project.clj that :init-ns should not be a string
15:43	perplexa	had some time to read up on reduce+conj \o/
15:44	caldiar	To provide some context, I have several entities which can have different behaviors such that a minotaur can move 1 unit at a time while an imp could move 2 units at a time. I was thinking a protocol and records which implement the move method would be best suited for this or if there was a more idiomatic way.
15:44	justin_smith	caldiar: you can switch to records if maps are slowing you down in a bottleneck
15:44	justin_smith	a multimethod can determine behavior from any function on your data
15:44	justin_smith	also, multimethods that use keywords can take advantage of multiple inheritence via derive
15:45	justin_smith	(this is not possible with records)
15:45	justin_smith	well, I guess it could be, but it isn't possible with protocols is what I really meant
15:48	caldiar	one of the ways I'm seeing things done (from the caves of clojure series of articles) is that there's multiple protocols and a record which uses extend-type for each protocol it would like to implement
15:48	justin_smith	that's another way to do it
15:48	justin_smith	protocols are a pain in the ass in interactive development
15:48	mdeboard[IND]	Elixir helped me understand protocols in Clojure much better
15:49	caldiar	my concern is that I don't want to get into bad habits and wind up having things come back to bite me later
15:49	justin_smith	maps upgrade seamlessless to records
15:50	caldiar	alright, thanks guys
15:53	borkdude	I would like to start my clojure app in a Docker container, wait until the server is started and then run tests against that server in the same docker container. My question: can I run test from something like an uberjar which I will add to the container?
15:53	borkdude	so basically it all runs in one container
15:54	borkdude	and I don't want to install leiningen etc in the image, too much work
15:54	justin_smith	borkdude: you can use test/run-tests for each test-ns inside an init function
15:55	borkdude	justin_smith ah, of course, thanks.
15:55	justin_smith	you may want to make sure the test namespaces are compiled into the uberjar, of course
15:55	borkdude	will the test code be included in an uberjar?
15:55	justin_smith	if it isn't, there should be a simple path to make it happen
15:55	borkdude	justin_smith hmyeah
15:57	justin_smith	and its easy to check if those files are in your uberjar - a jar is just a zip with special properties
15:59	borkdude	justin_smith right
17:13	mikerod	I'm wanting to understand the rationale behind this:
17:13	mikerod	,(coll? {})
17:13	clojurebot	true
17:13	mikerod	,(instance? java.util.Collection {})
17:13	clojurebot	false
17:14	mikerod	Are there any good links?
17:14	mikerod	:D
17:14	jkj	mikerod: well i quess java collections have features that coll doesn't need
17:14	jkj	let's see
17:14	mikerod	jkj: searching has been difficult
17:14	mikerod	hitting completely unrelated topics
17:15	justin_smith	,(instance? clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection {})
17:15	clojurebot	true
17:15	justin_smith	that's what coll tests
17:15	mikerod	yes, justin_smith I was just shorthand'ing that part
17:15	jkj	mikerod: momentos. firing up my repl
17:15	mikerod	,(instance? java.util.Collection [])
17:15	clojurebot	true
17:15	jkj	when do we have fast start
17:15	mikerod	I just see that Clojure chose to view a Persistent*Map as a IPersistentCollection
17:16	mikerod	but not as a j.u.Collection
17:16	jkj	,(map :name (:members (clojure.reflect/reflect java.util.Collection)))
17:16	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.reflect, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
17:16	jkj	oops. it is cljs?
17:16	justin_smith	mikerod: based on the docs for Collection, it is not used for maps
17:17	jkj	mikerod: (:bases (clojure.reflect/reflect {}))
17:23	mikerod	justin_smith: I don't see the docs that you are referring to for that
17:24	mikerod	It makes sense to me that Clj maps are not a j.u.Collection since j.u.Map is not though. I guess I should just look at it that way.
17:25	justin_smith	http://stackoverflow.com/a/2651833/2258453 answer has a quote from the java design documents
17:31	mikerod	Oh, yes I should have looked for that. Thanks justin_smith
17:32	mikerod	and thanks jkj for the input
18:02	razum2um1	is there any library to inspect java object - for now i use https://gist.github.com/razum2um/ffaaf90731f27a988141 but maybe someone has better ways?
18:07	razum2um1	better to say - is there any way to get, say, annotated source from maven (if possible) and show members with descriptions. Or (javadoc) with lucky google is best option?
18:10	justin_smith	#(apply dissoc % [:exception-types]) is #(dissoc % :exception-types)
18:11	justin_smith	#(contains? (:flags %) :public) could be (comp :public :flags) in this case
18:11	celwell	Hello, what's a good library (or technique) for running a function every 3 minutes?
18:12	Jaood	sleep?
18:13	celwell	Jaood: is that safe? i just don't want to run out of memory after a few days
18:13	Jaood	Thread/sleep
18:13	justin_smith	celwell: depends on whether you are using loop / while or simple self call
18:14	arrdem	Bronsa: so does the scheduler buy you anything performance wise?
18:14	justin_smith	celwell: for more power (and complexity) there is java.util.Timer which you can use via interop
18:15	bendlas	razum2um1: just the other day, I've written a thing that uses reflection to pretty-print java classes: https://github.com/webnf/webnf/blob/master/base/src/webnf/base.clj#L100
18:16	bendlas	it's turned out pretty nifty for exploring interacting with java objects from repl
18:16	razum2um1	justin_smith: thanks for feedback ;)
18:17	justin_smith	there is also bean, which suffices for some objects (and at least helps with others)
18:17	justin_smith	,(bean "hello")
18:17	clojurebot	{:empty false, :class java.lang.String, :bytes #<byte[] [B@1c1e75a>}
18:17	razum2um1	bendias: could you provide an example of this?
18:18	Bronsa	arrdem: no, it just automates the pass composition/dependency resolution
18:18	arrdem	Bronsa: :thumbsup:
18:18	Jaood	celwell: I guess using a delay with some time api could be more elegant
18:19	dbasch	celwell: that question is pretty generic, it depends on what you want to do and what level of operational reliability you need
18:19	dbasch	celwell: e.g. if you don't trust your own code you could use cron to start a jvm every time
18:19	razum2um1	bendlas: may I mention webnf in https://github.com/razum2um/awesome-clojure under frameworks?
18:20	celwell	dbasch: I'm running a ring server and need to spawn a 3-minute-interval-called function that gets certain rows from a db and may or may not update those rows.
18:20	Bronsa	arrdem: I was able to reduce the number of complete tree traversals from 8 to 7 but I doubt it's going to result in a noticeable speedup
18:21	bendlas	razum2um1: here http://pastebin.com/CsUGvAy5
18:21	arrdem	Bronsa: yeah that sounds about right.
18:21	bendlas	razum2um1: of course!
18:22	dbasch	celwell: as long as you don't hold on to the rows so they can be garbage-collected, and you run your jvm with enough heap, you should be fine
18:22	bendlas	although, it's intended to not be a framework, but a set of orthogonal libs that happen to interact well
18:22	dbasch	celwell: if you're on linux there's always a chance that the kernel might kill your process, so you may want to have a watchdog script to restart it
18:23	celwell	dbasch: are you saying that same would be true for the ring server itself? it might just die without auto restarting?
18:23	dbasch	celwell: yes, any jvm on linux could die without autorestarting
18:24	dbasch	celwell: you can tell the oom killer to ignore a process, but it's usually not the best idea
18:25	arrdem	dec finite memory machines
18:25	celwell	dbasch: I'm relatively new to the JVM (coming from PHP). Do you know of any material I can read to learn how to have a reliable ring server. Sorry I guess that's vague. But with PHP I would just let it run until I something messed up and i would restart apache.
18:26	razum2um1	bendlas: looks nice, maybe extract some fns like that?
18:27	bendlas	razum2um1: by 'extract' do you mean 'pack them in a library, so that they can be used independently'?
18:27	razum2um1	bendlas: pack
18:27	bendlas	if so, that's what I'm doing with webnf
18:28	razum2um1	bendlas: they are too different, e.g. hostname and pr-cls
18:28	dbasch	celwell: the important thing is to run the jvm with appropriate parameters, and to have a cron job or script to restart it if it dies unexpectedly
18:28	bendlas	it's basically all the fns, that I kept copy-pasting from project to project
18:28	dbasch	celwell: you also want to configure it to run on boot if your machine could lose power or reboot for some reason
18:28	razum2um1	bendlas: )) yep. saw this in clojure community everywhere
18:29	celwell	dbasch: thanks for the advice
18:30	razum2um1	hm folks, why not to join efforts and have one modular project like webnf, but having MORE than 1 contributor. just like active support in ruby land?
18:30	bendlas	yeah, I'm trying to split them into sub projects tastefully, it's always a balancing act between getting on with my projects while pushing snippets into webnf, and then refactoring webnf itself, e.g. introducing new packages
18:31	razum2um1	now I see everyone is duplicating some fnsctions with different names or even copypaste them into HIS toolbox library
18:31	razum2um1	is it really a trend to have my-own-helper-library ?
18:31	justin_smith	no
18:32	razum2um1	e.g. timbre's author has his lib too
18:32	bendlas	razum2um1: yay, I'd be all for it. problem is maintainership in all its facets
18:32	justin_smith	check out flatland/useful for a general set of useful stuff that isn't in core though https://github.com/flatland/useful
18:33	razum2um1	justin_smith: 6 contributors ;)
18:33	justin_smith	and they accept pull requests
18:34	razum2um1	justin_smith: I meant forces are disjoint. compare rails with 2k contributors (of cource, clj is not widly used, but *there ARE more than 6 clojurists)
18:35	noonian	,(def truthy? (comp not not))
18:35	clojurebot	#'sandbox/truthy?
18:35	justin_smith	razum2um1: I'd say 6/2000 is about the ratio of clojure to ruby users (maybe it is a bit hight actually)
18:35	justin_smith	noonian: isn't that what boolean does?
18:36	justin_smith	,(map boolean [true false nil 1 0 () []])
18:36	clojurebot	(true false false true true ...)
18:36	noonian	justin_smith: heh, i guess so; i didn't know boolean was a core function :P
18:36	razum2um1	justin_smith: e.g. in golang land there are LOTS of lein/bundler analogs all of them are depending on 1-2 devs. we have lein and it's cool or pain of choice ;)
18:37	razum2um1	i meant no pain of choice ;)
18:38	justin_smith	there have been alternatives to lein, but they haven't gone far
18:38	noonian	i think most clojure libs tend to be smallish and so much easier to maintain by 1-2 people, also tend to get to a point where they work and aren't touched much except for major refactors or api changes
18:38	xemdetia	such is the land of lisp
18:39	razum2um1	justin_smith: yes and 227 contributors to lein show where the mainstream is. why there is no lein-like "activesupport" what do you think?
18:40	justin_smith	razum2um1: for the most part, clojure people hate frameworks and don't use them
18:40	razum2um1	it doesn't have to be one repo
18:41	razum2um1	but can be ogranisation
18:41	bendlas	razum2um1, justin_smith: so IMO, if we were to have a place where everybody could maintain their favourite helper code, it would nessecarily have to be split into various subprojects with different focus
18:41	justin_smith	razum2um1: and if there was a single lib that supplied multibyte strings, internationalization, time zones, testing, etc. for clojure, people would ask why so many different things were in one lib
18:41	xemdetia	I thought we already had github /snark
18:41	bendlas	that's why i laid out webnf that way from the start
18:41	razum2um1	bendlas: yes, but I don't see any so far
18:41	razum2um1	oops, perhaps webnf is it ;)
18:42	razum2um1	but again, bendlas, you are alone
18:42	justin_smith	razum2um1: thanks to lein / clojars, we don't need everything to be coming from one organization. It is easy for anyone to share whatever libs they would like to share.
18:43	bendlas	yeah, ML reactions to new announcements have become increasingly apathetic, last couple of years
18:44	razum2um1	justin_smith: I didn't mean that, I mean some really mainstream helper lib. like clojure.contrib before, but it doesn't have to be single project/repo
18:44	noonian	it seems like we are somewhat converging in terms of ways to design system with design patterns like stuart sierra's component and libraries building on those ideas like trapperkeeper and modular
18:44	bendlas	I mean, leiningen + clojars gets you 90% there, the only thing that's really missing are dependency sets to get rid of those ridiculously long :dependency lists
18:44	bendlas	i.e. webnf.deps/*
18:44	razum2um1	bendlas: :)
18:44	justin_smith	razum2um1: we have a mainstream helper lib. If you want a bigger, more comprehensive one, go ahead and make it I guess?
18:45	razum2um1	justin_smith: there will be no good since I will be only one, who is using it
18:46	justin_smith	if it's good enough, other people will use it, if it isn't good enough they shouldn't be using it - I really fail to see what the problem is here
18:47	noonian	i bring prismatic plumbing into all the project i make now, i think they've done a good job extending the language with small useful functions/macros
18:47	bendlas	justin_smith: the problem is, that even for more that good enough code, if it doesn't hit an immediate need (like leiningen did), you have a discoverability problem (i.e. marketing)
18:48	razum2um1	justin_smith: it starts when I started write class-inspection function and setup a repo for it and some more others, then saw bendlas's webnf, then you… everyone has his own. it dramatically reduces recognizable of other's code
18:48	noonian	the ?> and ?>> conditionals for use with the threading macros are really nice
18:49	razum2um1	justin_smith: I mean to read someone's code with HIS helper functions we must read them all too
18:49	razum2um1	justin_smith: some standard is needed i think
18:49	justin_smith	how much of rails code have you read?
18:49	justin_smith	I mean the underlying code
18:49	razum2um1	justin_smith: lots and have commits there
18:51	bendlas	FWIW, i don't think rails is the model we should be aiming for, despite its success
18:51	razum2um1	and some not accepted PR's since I made gems for that, but it's offtopic
18:51	bendlas	I try to think more along the lines of the new clojure contrib stuff
18:52	bendlas	single-purpose, replaceable
18:52	justin_smith	bendlas: agreed 100%, just checking if razum2um1 was actually one to read the source for all the libraries used by the libraries he uses
18:52	razum2um1	bendlas: now I mean some very specific thing: activesupport is widely accepted, without rails too, and I read code with it much faster
18:53	bendlas	OIC
18:54	bendlas	i think, the excellent platform support of clojure hurts this cause. Most people are just like: 'eh, i can use that java lib'
18:54	justin_smith	and they are probably better off just using the java lib too, in many cases
18:55	bendlas	true\
18:55	bja	I don't think I even use very many clojure libraries. Mostly just wrappers for java stuff
18:56	razum2um1	bja: do you think it's better even no to wrap them?
18:57	noonian	i prefer pure clojure libs to java wrappers if they are available
18:57	razum2um1	actually I'm late to this party, is this trend still in (wrap java)?
18:57	razum2um1	noonian: tend to agree
18:58	bendlas	i'd say yes, but only for stuff whose java impl is excellent
18:58	matthiasn	hey guys, I am stuck with a problem. I have an application that runs nicely on my mac but when I try to run it on Ubuntu 14.04 (lein run or the uberjar makes no difference) I get the following error: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No implementation of method: :make-writer of protocol: #'clojure.java.io/IOFactory found for class: nil, compiling:(/tmp/form-init5185754411886008906.clj:1:72)
18:58	matthiasn	Does anyone have an idea where to look? thanks a lot
18:58	noonian	when there are big java libs that don't need to be re-written people tend to wrap them, like aws java clients for example
18:59	rweir	weird java errors always make me trash ~/.m2/repos just in case
18:59	justin_smith	matthiasn: wait, the uberjar is referring to /tmp/form-intblablahblah?
18:59	noonian	matthiasn: when you say it runs fine on your mac did you try running from an uberjar or just in the repl?
18:59	bja	razum2um1, it depends on the java library. I go back and forth on whether marceline is an improvement over regular JVM interop for Storm's Trident API
18:59	bendlas	matthiasn: thats basically a null pointer exception. Probably from a resource fail, that's not been found on the different platform
19:00	matthiasn	@noonian on mac either repl, run or uberjar all work
19:00	bendlas	lol, *resource file
19:01	matthiasn	@justin_smith: that was when doing lein run
19:01	justin_smith	matthiasn: OK, what is the error with an uberjar?
19:01	noonian	matthiasn: maybe forgot to check a resource into git or something?
19:01	justin_smith	also, the error with lein run points to a file, in /tmp/ that is generated based on your project.clj
19:02	matthiasn	noonian: there’s one config file that’s not checked in because of credentials, but it’s there locally
19:02	justin_smith	matthiasn: with an identical path?
19:02	bendlas	look for stuff that would lead to (clojure.java.io/writer nil)
19:03	matthiasn	justin_smith: with uberjar its just: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No implementation of method: :make-writer of protocol: #'clojure.java.io/IOFactory found for class: nil
19:04	bendlas	does it try to write to some OSX specific path like /User/... ?
19:04	matthiasn	justin_smith: in the project root
19:04	justin_smith	yeah, something in there is trying to create something to write output to (a file? a network connection?) and is getting nil
19:04	justin_smith	matthiasn: can you share your project.clj?
19:05	matthiasn	sure: https://github.com/matthiasn/BirdWatch/blob/master/Clojure-Websockets/project.clj
19:05	justin_smith	matthiasn: in the ubuntu computer, is there a target/ directory? git won't create it if it doesn't have any checked in files inside it
19:06	matthiasn	Oh I have an idea, let me check
19:07	justin_smith	also, "target/%s" may need to be "target/%s/" - at least that is how it is done in the example project.clj
19:08	matthiasn	found it :-)
19:08	justin_smith	what was it?
19:09	matthiasn	so there was a new key in twitterclient.edn for the name of the PID file to write
19:09	matthiasn	and I did not add that key in the edn file on the server
19:10	matthiasn	that was the right pointer with the program trying to write something :-) thanks a lot
19:18	phao	Hi. I'm curious. Does Clojure have something like CL's loop facility?
19:18	phao	And... Does Rich Hickey come in here? Hehe
19:18	justin_smith	phao: not really, there are for and doseq, but we don't use DSLs as much as CL does
19:18	phao	justin_smith, Ok. Thanks =).
19:18	matthiasn_	hmm, got kicked out of my network for the last three minutes or so
19:18	matthiasn_	thanks for the help, much appreciated
19:18	noonian	what does cl loop macro give you that for doesn't? i'm not trying to be argumentative i just don't have any cl experience
19:18	justin_smith	phao: actually some uses of "loop" would even be covered by our own loop, or reduce (in combination with reduced for short circuiting), or iterate as well
19:18	justin_smith	noonian: it is an embedded language for describing recursion
19:18	justin_smith	(loop for item in list for i from 1 to 10 do (something))
19:18	technomancy	CL LOOP can do basically anything
19:18	phao	noonian, I do have experience in CL, but not much. It could be just likely that you know more about it than I do.
19:18	justin_smith	(loop for i from 20 downto 10 ...)
19:18	technomancy	in clojure you would express it as a series of sequence operations, but in CL you just mush it into a single macro
19:18	phao	I was just curious because my belief is the same as technomancy's.
19:18	justin_smith	(loop for k being the hash-keys in h using (hash-value v) ...)
19:18	justin_smith	it's almost like cobol
19:19	phao	technomancy, any clues on why loop-ish macros aren't in clojure?
19:19	technomancy	even among CL fans loop is pretty controversial because it tries to be english-like instead of being lispy
19:19	technomancy	phao: you mean why huge english-like macros in general aren't in wide use?
19:19	phao	technomancy, that as well =)
19:19	justin_smith	right, it is a COBOL like language for describing loops, that just happens to sit in a lisp file
19:19	phao	justin_smith, hehehehe
19:20	technomancy	I would have thought that'd be self-evident. trying to be english-like pretty much always results in weird unpredictable idiosyncracies because english is a crazy language.
19:20	phao	technomancy, I didn't know loop also had these issues
19:20	justin_smith	but in all seriousness, the clojure design goals are to make small composible things that combine powerfully, rather than monolithic standalone features
19:20	phao	I thought it kept itself to simple syntactical constructions.
19:21	technomancy	loop is basically its own language... we already have a language that we like for describing sequences; adding another one doesn't make sense
19:21	phao	justin_smith, Right. CL seems, to me, to approach the other end of that.
19:21	technomancy	I'm sure someone has ported it as an exercise though
19:21	noonian	(loop for i from 1 to 3 sum (* i i)) would be (reduce + (range 1 4)) in clojure
19:21	justin_smith	phao: https://www.refheap.com/90332 this is a valid usage of the loop macro
19:22	justin_smith	from this page http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/loop-for-black-belts.html
19:22	phao	hahahahaha
19:22	phao	it looks like those algorithms book pseudo-code
19:22	justin_smith	not quite as verbose as COBOL, and not in all caps, but the same "we want to program in english" concept
19:22	noonian	most of the examples from here look like they would read better in clojure imo
19:22	noonian	http://www.unixuser.org/~euske/doc/cl/loop.html
19:23	noonian	cl loop macro for beginners
19:24	phao	justin_smith, stuff like this breaks my foundations on believing that there is a logic which controls it all.
19:24	arrdem	so um... what does this macro _not_ do
19:24	justin_smith	"it all"?
19:24	justin_smith	arrdem: solve the halting problem? dunno, maybe it does that too
19:24	phao	justin_smith, In this case, what is acceptable or not by the loop, and what it does, and how the macro decides what to do, and many other aspects.
19:25	arrdem	justin_smith: if it does I'm handing in my badge
19:25	justin_smith	arrdem: I am still laughing at the example I pasted in the refheap link above
19:25	arrdem	justin_smith: I missed it. repost?
19:25	justin_smith	arrdem: https://www.refheap.com/90332 this is a valid usage of the loop macro
19:25	phao	justin_smith, Oh! THe 'and' tokens combine stuff together.
19:25	phao	Now things are starting to make sense.
19:26	technomancy	it would make a lot more sense if it just used parens like regular lisp
19:26	arrdem	justin_smith: we're a lisp. fuckit. lets embed some bash.
19:26	arrdem	^ what technomancy said
19:26	phao	technomancy, I couldn't agree more =)
19:26	justin_smith	arrdem: hell, I still maintain it's closest living relative is COBOL
19:26	phao	technomancy, but maybe it's just a learning curve kind of thing, as in once you learn it, you maybe can be productive with it.
19:26	arrdem	justin_smith: "living"...
19:27	technomancy	clojure.core/for is the closest thing to a mini-language in that it supports :when and :let, but they're just a different syntax for things you already know
19:28	justin_smith	phao: but we can't easily compose new functionality by combining it with other tools
19:28	phao	justin_smith, I see.
19:28	arrdem	I guess my issue with this is while it's a legitimate macro it's almost entirely divorced from the syntactic style of the host language..
19:28	noonian	yeah, i had no idea for supported :when and :let for months and was doing it all in the body or filtering outside
19:29	arrdem	which aggravates what justin_smith is saying that it doesn't trivially or obviously compose
19:29	phao	justin_smith, CL has the notion of a sequence type too, if I'm not mistaken, can't the loop macro work with any sequence?
19:30	noonian	it just seems like its trying to do too much all so you can do it in a single form
19:30	justin_smith	phao: in one of the examples I quoted above, it was iterating on the keys / values of a hashtable
19:32	amalloy	oh boy, is it time to talk about LOOP again?
19:32	arrdem	no thanks
19:32	justin_smith	~loop
19:32	clojurebot	I don't understand.
19:32	justin_smith	~cl-loop
19:32	clojurebot	No entiendo
19:32	phao	hehehe
19:32	justin_smith	clearly, we need to rectify this situation
19:33	phao	justin_smith, put that link as the output for ~loop
19:33	justin_smith	clojurebot: loop \|is\| https://www.refheap.com/90332
19:33	clojurebot	In Ordnung
19:34	phao	hehehehe
19:34	rweir	is that really truly valid CL?
19:35	justin_smith	rweir: yeah
19:36	justin_smith	here is the formal description, which may be even more daunting http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm
19:44	clop2	hi, new to clojure (from common lisp), going to port an app to get some experience; wondering, does clojure have any syntax mechanism for structure sharing input in its reader, like #1=... style reader macros in lisp?
19:46	amalloy	clop2: no. it's kinda hard to have such things anyway, in a language that is immutable and strict/eager
19:46	SegFaultAX	clop2: Clojure doesn't have reader macros, no.
19:47	clop2	ok thanks, so i guess i need to write a parser, that'll be a good project too
19:47	amalloy	SegFaultAX: he's not asking about user-supplied reader macros, but about one specific one that the CL reader has. clojure certainly has many prepackaged reader macros, like #{...}
19:47	SegFaultAX	amalloy: Do I need to specify "user-defined" there? I assume the "except for what Clojure does internally" is implied.
19:49	amalloy	SegFaultAX: if i include the "implied" part, then you haven't even attempted to answer the question. "clojure doesn't have user-supplied reader macros" is not an answer to "is there a #1= macro built in"
19:49	TEttinger	what does #1= do?
19:50	amalloy	TEttinger: it's for printing circular references
19:50	amalloy	(and then reading them back in as still-circular)
19:50	TimMc	I think that's called sharp-notation in some JSON supersets.
19:50	clop2	right, or for simply sharing common subexpressions (that don't happen to be circular)
19:50	amalloy	more genrally, i guess, it's for capturing shared structure, of which circular references are a special case
19:51	TEttinger	you can change the behavior of fns like pr and prn pretty easily, though I don't know how you'd detect shared structure
19:52	justin_smith	TEttinger: but could you read in a way that made prn actually do the right thing?
19:52	amalloy	clop2: does CL really use that for non-circular lists? like, if i write (let ((x (cons 1 2))) (list x x)), i don't get a #1= notation
19:52	TEttinger	justin_smith, with read-eval, yes
19:53	justin_smith	ahh, of course, read-eval
19:53	clop2	amalloy: cl can be instructed to print with structure sharing if you bind print-circle to t, or custom printers can print it out in other cases
19:53	TEttinger	,(print "#=(+ 1 1 1)")
19:53	clojurebot	#=(+ 1 1 1)
19:53	clop2	amalloy: typically it will only create #= abbreviations for circular objects, I think, but I'm not an expert
19:54	amalloy	actually even if i write (let ((x (cons 1 2))) (setf (cdr x) x) x) i don't get that pretty notation out of clisp; the interpreter just hangs
19:54	clop2	amalloy: but for reading back in, you can do, e.g., (+ #1=5 4 #1#) or similar
19:54	amalloy	but i can't figure out how to set print-circle
19:54	amalloy	anyway, not really important
19:56	clop2	this should do it: (let ((print-circle t) (x (cons 1 2))) (setf (cdr x) x) (print x) nil)
19:56	TEttinger	hm, I can't remember if clojurebot allows read-eval
20:11	amalloy	so guys, i found a funny trick in my old 4clojure solutions. suppose you have 3 objects named x, y, and z, and you want to compute (f x) + (f y) - (f z), but you don't like repeating f. you'd rather use (map f [x y z]) or something like it, and then do the math on the resulting list
20:11	amalloy	here is the solution i used, way back then: (- (apply - (map f [z x y])))
20:16	justin_smith	hah, nice
20:16	amalloy	for those following along at home, that converts the problem to -(f(z) - f(x) - f(y))
20:16	amalloy	- has the funny property that the first item is given a different sign than the rest
20:21	TEttinger	,(apply - [10 22 55])
20:21	clojurebot	-67
20:21	TEttinger	huh
20:22	justin_smith	,(reduce - [10 22 55])
20:22	clojurebot	-67
20:22	TEttinger	,(reduce - 0 [10 22 55])
20:22	clojurebot	-87
20:22	TEttinger	neat trick, amalloy
20:22	TEttinger	(inc amalloy)
20:23	TEttinger	lazybot is ded
20:23	amalloy	he's been having a rough time recently for some reason
20:23	arrdem	the bot is dead long live the bot
20:26	dbasch	here's a (stupid) gotcha. What do you expect t and second t to be? https://www.refheap.com/90336
20:27	justin_smith	well, locking 128 won't work
20:27	justin_smith	or won't really do what you expect at least
20:28	amalloy	yeah, don't lock integers. what kind of wacko thinks he deserves an exclusive lock on a mathematic ideal?
20:28	dbasch	amalloy: you can happily lock 127 or -128 though
20:28	justin_smith	well, at least for 127 you have a single instance
20:28	dbasch	or anything in between
20:28	amalloy	dbasch: sure, you get lucky with an implementation detail
20:29	amalloy	i doubt the interning of Long objects between -128 and 127 is part of the jvm spec
20:29	amalloy	(or the jls)
20:30	dbasch	amalloy: in fact, the doc for the oracle jvm says they "may cache values outside this range"
20:30	clop2	does clojure have any haskell/ml-like way to define simple types like, maybe-number ::= number \| nil ?
20:30	amalloy	clop2: no, we don't have ADTs
20:30	Guest26510	,(reduce -
20:30	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
20:31	Guest26510	err
20:31	dbasch	(locking 4 (println "http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1464540/"))
20:31	johnnycage	,(reduce - '())
20:31	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core/->
20:31	johnnycage	can I supply a starting value for the accumulator?
20:31	amalloy	,(doc reduce)
20:31	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f val coll]); f should be a function of 2 arguments. If val is not supplied, returns the result of applying f to the first 2 items in coll, then applying f to that result and the 3rd item, etc. If coll contains no items, f must accept no arguments as well, and reduce returns the result of calling f with no arguments. If coll has only 1 item, it is returned and f is not called. If val i...
20:32	TEttinger	johnnycage, yes, ##(reduce + 10 [1 2 3])
20:32	lazybot	⇒ 16
20:33	TEttinger	(inc amalloy)
20:33	lazybot	⇒ 167
20:33	johnnycage	is that the same function? it uses optional argument, or?
20:33	johnnycage	overloaded function?
20:33	TEttinger	starting values for reduce are very very useful for reduce on strings
20:34	TEttinger	see in the docstring amalloy called up, ([f coll] [f val coll]) ?
20:34	johnnycage	yes
20:34	TEttinger	that means it can take [f coll] as two args, or [f val coll] as 3 args
20:34	TEttinger	val is the starting value
20:34	johnnycage	I realize this. I am just curious how is something like implemented
20:34	johnnycage	+that
20:34	dbasch	,(reduce str "can " ["I " "supply " "a " "value?"])
20:34	clojurebot	"can I supply a value?"
20:35	TEttinger	,(defn multi ([] "you gotta give me some args!") ([f coll]) (reduce f coll))
20:35	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Parameter declaration "reduce" should be a vector, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_FILE:0:0)>
20:35	TEttinger	,(defn multi ([] "you gotta give me some args!") ([f coll] (reduce f coll)))
20:35	clojurebot	#'sandbox/multi
20:35	TEttinger	,(multi)
20:35	clojurebot	"you gotta give me some args!"
20:36	TEttinger	,(multi + [1 2 3])
20:36	clojurebot	6
20:36	justin_smith	dbasch: why not apply str?
20:36	johnnycage	neat
20:37	dbasch	,(apply str "they " ["were " "taking " "about " "reduce."]) ; justin_smith
20:37	clojurebot	"they were taking about reduce."
20:37	amalloy	yeah, i don't recommend ever using str as the function you're reducing
20:37	dbasch	talking that is
20:37	justin_smith	we have apply str, string/join, even reduce on StringBuilder if you have to go that way
20:37	amalloy	it should always be apply (or, better yet, something more suitable like clojure.string/join)
20:38	dbasch	yes, you don't want to be concatenating strings like crazy
20:38	TEttinger	johnnycage, that multiple argument list technique is used heavily by clojure's standard lib, but it hasn't come up too often for me in code I have written. still quite useful.
20:38	amalloy	justin_smith: not much point in reducing over a stringbuilder
20:38	amalloy	might as well hammer on it in place with doseq
20:38	justin_smith	fair enough
20:42	justin_smith	and now that I check, yup, of course clojure.string/join is a loop with a StringBuilder in it
20:44	johnnycage	what is apply's relationship with reduce? can we just replace one with the other, always?
20:44	dbasch	johnnycage: no
20:44	johnnycage	tey seem to be interchangeable in many cases
20:44	johnnycage	they
20:44	justin_smith	johnnycage: well, many functions with varargs are implemented in terms of a two arg function + reduce, so apply invokes reduce internally
20:44	dbasch	johnnycage: apply simply converts a collection (or arguments plus a collection) into arguments
20:45	justin_smith	(in those cases, that is)
20:45	johnnycage	oh, apply just passes all the elements to the function
20:45	justin_smith	right
20:46	justin_smith	and if you look at the source to + for example, it uses the internal clojure.lang.Numbers.add which takes two args, and then uses reduce for the rest of the args
20:46	justin_smith	(reduce1 which is an optimized reduce in this case, but anyway...)
20:47	amalloy	i wonder: why is it called reduce1? it reminds me of foldl1 or something, which isn't right at all
20:49	justin_smith	odd, especially given that reduce* was not taken
20:50	justin_smith	and that would kind of make sense given things like fn* and let*
20:51	dbasch	amalloy: because it was June 11, so 1 was the digit of the day. https://github.com/clojure/clojure/commit/3f74c9ff6e9bf8e5e120129ea1c1c7e4719b4dcc
20:52	justin_smith	(inc dbasch)
20:52	lazybot	⇒ 10
20:53	amalloy	hey, who was it who was telling me that it's easy to forgot where the return-type annotation goes? Bronsa? i just found evidence that rich forgets too: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/commit/e354b011 puts them in both places, like (defn ^Foo f ^Foo [x])
20:53	amalloy	(the second Foo there is entirely ignored afaik)
20:53	justin_smith	yeah, I think dbasch was asking why the misplacement was not an error
20:54	justin_smith	it would logically indicate metadata on the params vactor, but how would you even access that...
20:54	dbasch	I think I disassembled both versions and saw no difference
20:54	amalloy	justin_smith: well, it's the correct place to put a primitive typehint
20:54	justin_smith	oh wow, OK
20:54	amalloy	but means nothing if you hint with an object type
20:55	amalloy	(defn square ^long [^long x] (* x x)) avoids boxing
20:56	dbasch	the one I found had ^String
20:56	amalloy	right, those are wrong
21:03	johnnycage	is there a reduce equivalent that returns a list of all the intermediate results (the value of the accumulator) instead of just the final result?
21:03	justin_smith	reductions
21:03	amalloy	,(doc reductiosn)
21:03	clojurebot	No entiendo
21:03	amalloy	boo
21:03	justin_smith	you misspelled it
21:03	amalloy	yeah
21:03	justin_smith	,(doc reductions)
21:03	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f init coll]); Returns a lazy seq of the intermediate values of the reduction (as per reduce) of coll by f, starting with init."
21:04	johnnycage	nice thanks
21:04	amalloy	incidentally, has anyone ever used the first item in the value returned by reductions? i feel like i only ever call it as (rest (reductions ...))
21:06	amalloy	well, never mind. i just searched all the code i have on the computer, and the one time i used it i didn't call rest
21:15	justin_smith	amalloy: one of mine was without using rest, the other only had reductions as a comment, and was an excersize blind-rewriting it from scratch
21:21	joobus	what's crackin' clojure clan?
21:25	justin_smith	workin on some 4clojure problems
21:25	amalloy	justin_smith: you are worse at spelling exercise than i am at spelling privelidge
21:26	justin_smith	hah
21:27	joobus	i'm working projecteuler problem 9 in clojure :)
21:28	joobus	justin_smith: are you writing them or doing them?
21:28	justin_smith	doing them, after I solve them all I will make some up
21:55	phao	Does Rich Hickey come in here?
21:55	xeqi	rarely
22:00	kenrestivo	bar
22:37	kenrestivo	~seen rhickey
22:37	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
22:37	kenrestivo	,seen rhickey
22:37	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: seen in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
22:37	kenrestivo	lazybot: seen rhickey
22:37	lazybot	rhickey was last seen quitting 65 weeks and 1 day ago.
22:37	kenrestivo	phao: ^
22:46	kyun	How to use clojure file as script?
22:47	justin_smith	kyun: there is a lein plugin for it, or you can just reference the clojure jar and your script, but clojure tends to be awkward for scripting because the core takes a long time to load
22:47	brehaut	slowly
22:48	justin_smith	https://github.com/kumarshantanu/lein-exec lein-exec is probably easiest
22:49	kyun	Oh, I see, thanks.
22:51	kyun	I think it will faster to scala script:)
22:51	TEttinger	kyun, nope
22:51	TEttinger	jvm startup time is slow either way
22:52	TEttinger	there's stuff like drip that makes jvm startup time faster for clojure and maybe other languages
22:53	amalloy	TEttinger: most of the startup time is clojure's fault, not the jvm
22:54	amalloy	building a bunch of vars, compiling your code, and so on
22:54	TEttinger	right, but scala's compiler is even slower if you just changed the script :)
22:57	kyun	Scala's type system is to too hard for me-_-
22:57	TEttinger	https://github.com/flatland/drip is drip, btw
22:58	TEttinger	kyun: http://tpolecat.github.io/assets/list.png
22:59	justin_smith	lol
23:00	kyun	Oh my god.
23:04	TEttinger	err, https://github.com/ninjudd/drip is newer
23:12	izirku	hi all! a noob question perhaps - when different libraries themselves depend on different versions of the same library, what are the implications?...
23:13	izirku	some even require different version of Clojure itself. Should one be concerned with it?
23:13	TEttinger	izirku, that is a common problem and a hard one to resolve
23:14	izirku	TEttinger: I'm aware somewhat of not using :aot :all, which supposed to help, but is there anything else? I tried to search the web with...
23:14	izirku	not much success on this. Coming from Common Lisp, this is something new to me.
23:14	TEttinger	which libs have different dependency versions?
23:15	TEttinger	it
23:16	TEttinger	it's possible you can fork one that needs an older version, update the version it depends on, upload your personal copy to clojars for now (submitting a pull request to the author for later), and depend on your clojars copy or a locally installed version until they are both up-to-date
23:17	izirku	TEttinger: for example lib-noir "0.8.9" depends on cheshire 5.3.1, which in turn depends on jackson-core 2.3.1 ...
23:17	TEttinger	that's probably a bad approach but I have done it
23:18	izirku	also lib-noir "0.8.9" depends on ring-middleware-format "0.4.0" and some more, which in the end depend on jackson-core "2.3.2"
23:18	xeqi	izirku: `lein deps :tree` should help you identify potential problems. Implications are the libraries erroring or half working at runtime
23:18	TEttinger	that's interesting, I wouldn't expect that lib-noir would have that problem
23:19	izirku	xeqi: that's exactly where I got the dependency information from
23:20	izirku	xeqi: I see the implications :(
23:21	TEttinger	hm, https://clojars.org/ring-middleware-format doesn't itself depend on jackson-core 2.3.2
23:21	izirku	TEttinger: I guess forking could work, but that's a lot of forks :)
23:23	izirku	TEttinger: no, not itself, but one of it's dependencies. here is a pastebin of my lein deps :tree http://paste.lisp.org/+32WW
23:25	xeqi	wow those extra parens are annoying. I thought I had fixed that
23:25	TEttinger	using the dep on ([lib-noir "0.8.9" :exclusions [com.fasterxml.jackson.core/jackson-core]]) should be good
23:25	xeqi	izirku: what lein version?
23:26	izirku	xeqi: Leiningen 2.4.2 on Java 1.8.0_11 Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM
23:26	xeqi	ah, that fix didn't come till later
23:30	izirku	xeqi: noted, updating now :)
23:30	mmitchel_	I'm having a problem using this library https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring-session-timeout --- it seems that a session logout, followed very quickly by another request (which updates the session value with a timeout) value, causes the session to continue living -- has anyone experienced this?
23:31	mmitchel_	The underlying session storage is ring in-memory, which is using an atom
23:32	izirku	TEttinger: I did put the :exclude in, will work through the rest. Does the exclude basically tells a package to ignore dependency, ...
23:32	xeqi	mmitchel_: what is a "session logout" ?
23:32	izirku	TEttinger: and whatever else version is pulled will be used?
23:32	mmitchel_	I think the problem is that the delete happens in a swap!, and before it finishes, the timeout middleware gets access to the session data. Then the delete tries removes it, but then the timeout middleware finishes its work and re-populates the session data.
23:32	mmitchel_	xeqi: a request handler that responds with a {:status 200 :session nil}
23:34	xeqi	izirku: correct
23:35	izirku	xeqi, TEttinger: thank you for your help, much appreciated!
23:39	xeqi	mmitchel_: are the requests overlapping?
23:41	mmitchel_	xeqi: yes they are
23:44	xeqi	mmitchel_: then I don't think it has to do with atoms/swap. More that both request get the session from the session store. Then whichever writes last "wins"
23:45	xeqi	similar ideas, just at a level higher then the underlying session store
23:45	mmitchel_	xeqi: yeah, i'm not sure what to do here
23:49	mmitchel_	xeqi: any suggestions?
23:50	xeqi	mmitchel_: what do you expect to happen to the side effecting parts of the second request?
23:50	xeqi	* want to have happen
23:53	xeqi	for example, overlapping "logout" and "delete project" requests
23:54	mmitchel_	xeqi: yeah, good question. I guess I'm hoping "delete" wins -- somewhow
23:55	mmitchel_	but i guess that can only happen if the delete start, only happens when something else hasn't already got to it
23:56	mmitchel_	so a blocking delete etc..