#clojure – 2014-09-02

2014-09-02

02:40	xy86	is anyone using friend with luminus?
02:55	mi6x3m	clojure how do I get the namespace qualifier in e.g. foo/bar ?
02:58	mi6x3m	,(namespace 'foo/bar)
02:58	clojurebot	"foo"
02:58	mi6x3m	,(namespace 'bar)
02:58	clojurebot	nil
02:59	celwell	Does anyone know what's wrong with my regex? I trying to grab every group of text between "Registration" words in a document. (re-seq #"Registration([.\s]*)Registration" text)
03:00	TEttinger	well \s won't work inside a character group, celwell
03:01	TEttinger	,(re-seq #"Registration(.*)Registration" "Registration TEttinger celwell Registration")
03:01	clojurebot	(["Registration TEttinger celwell Registration" " TEttinger celwell "])
03:01	TEttinger	did you want to guarantee a space being at the end?
03:02	celwell	no
03:02	celwell	does your regex cover whitespace in the midst of each group?
03:02	celwell	hmm... i'm getting nil
03:02	TEttinger	do you want to grab those as separate things?
03:03	celwell	no, just the groups (the content between each pair of Registration strings)
03:03	TEttinger	,(re-seq #"Registration(\s+\w+\b)+Registration" "Registration TEttinger celwell Registration")
03:03	clojurebot	nil
03:03	TEttinger	,(re-seq #"Registration(\s+\w+\b\s*)+Registration" "Registration TEttinger celwell Registration")
03:03	clojurebot	(["Registration TEttinger celwell Registration" " celwell "])
03:03	TEttinger	oh, so you do just want the first one
03:04	TEttinger	or possibly re-find
03:04	TEttinger	,(re-find #"Registration(.*)Registration" "Registration TEttinger celwell Registration")
03:04	clojurebot	["Registration TEttinger celwell Registration" " TEttinger celwell "]
03:05	celwell	I have a long document of a bunch of registration info and each one starts with "Registration". I just trying to chunk it by registration and then I'll do further parsing.
03:05	celwell	the "Registration" words are on newlines (there are other whitespace characters in the midst of each chunk as well)
03:06	TEttinger	and you want to keep the whitespace right?
03:06	celwell	yeah
03:06	TEttinger	,(re-find #"Registration(.*)Registration" "Registration TEttinger celwell\nRegistration")
03:06	clojurebot	nil
03:06	TEttinger	ah ha
03:06	TEttinger	,(re-find #"Registration(.\|\n*)Registration" "Registration TEttinger celwell\nRegistration")
03:06	clojurebot	nil
03:06	TEttinger	,(re-find #"Registration((:?.\|\n)*)Registration" "Registration TEttinger celwell\nRegistration")
03:06	clojurebot	["Registration TEttinger celwell\nRegistration" " TEttinger celwell\n" "\n"]
03:07	celwell	ah...
03:07	TEttinger	dammit that's supposed to ignore the find....
03:16	celwell	TEttinger: hmmm... that stack overflows pretty soon on my machine. Maybe I can't use regexes to tokenize my data here...
03:19	celwell	TEttinger: Thanks for the help anyways.
03:20	celwell	TEttinger: Yeah, if you take the "Registration TEttinger celwell\r\nRegistration" string and copy/paste that about fifty times, it'll overflow
03:21	celwell	I guess that capturing group is recursive and piling up
03:21	TEttinger	hm, maybe... there could be a better way
03:27	TEttinger	got it, celwell: ##(re-seq #"Registration([^\000]*?)Registration" (apply str (repeat 100 "Registration TEttinger celwell\nRegistration")))
03:27	lazybot	⇒ (["Registration TEttinger celwell\nRegistration" " TEttinger celwell\n"] ["Registration TEttinger celwell\nRegistration" " TEttinger celwell\n"] ["Registration TEttinger celwell\nRegistration" " TEttinger celwell\n"] ["Registration TEttinger celwell\nRegistration" " ... https://www.refheap.com/89683
03:28	TEttinger	that uses a negated character class and the (can't remember what it's called, opposite of greedy) star
03:29	TEttinger	minimal, that's what "*?" is
03:29	celwell	wow, thanks, works well.
03:30	TEttinger	no prob, I used http://www.regular-expressions.info/charclass.html#negated for all this
03:30	TEttinger	that site is pretty great
03:31	celwell	kind of weird how something this common (i think) requires a negated character class (but I guess there are other ways too)
03:38	TEttinger	celwell, there's an interesting thing on there about "Dot"
03:38	TEttinger	http://www.regular-expressions.info/dot.html "the most commonly mis-used character"
03:40	celwell	ah, of course it always comes down to this: "This exception exists mostly because of historic reasons"
04:19	borkdude	sorry if I could have found this in the paredit cheatsheet, but how do I swap/toggle two sexprs? like option-t in normal lines
04:19	borkdude	in emacs
04:27	maxthoursie	borkdude: C-M-t
04:29	borkdude	an, transpose-sexp, thanks
04:29	borkdude	sexps even
05:09	amalloy	TEttinger: pretty sure the better solution to celwell's regex problem was to turn on the "dot matches newline" flag, not a weird capturing group
05:10	TEttinger	amalloy, I didn't know about that flag
05:11	TEttinger	is it an optional arg in re-seq?
05:12	TEttinger	the weird capturing group will have the same behavior though, since \000 (NUL) isn't allowed in strings anyway
05:12	TEttinger	or it might be in java?
05:12	amalloy	you can pass any regex flag to Pattern/compile, or include it inline in the regex with the flag-activating syntax. eg, (?s) activates the S flag, which is dotall
05:13	amalloy	er, ?s is single-line. dotall is in there somewhere
05:16	amalloy	,(re-seq #"(?m)Registration (.*)" "Registration TEttinger celwell\nRegistration foo")
05:16	clojurebot	(["Registration TEttinger celwell" "TEttinger celwell"] ["Registration foo" "foo"])
05:17	TEttinger	?m eh? that's new
05:17	TEttinger	well to me
05:18	TEttinger	$mail celwell amalloy's better solution uses a regex flag that allows newlines as part of . matches. (re-seq #"(?m)Registration (.*)" "Registration TEttinger celwell\nRegistration foo")
05:18	lazybot	Message saved.
05:19	TEttinger	although he specified that the Registration might not be followed by a space
05:19	TEttinger	(might be tab or newline)
05:19	amalloy	TEttinger: (?m) is a specific case of the general turn-on-a-flag syntax, which works for all regex flags (eg, (?i) for ignore-case)
05:20	amalloy	(?M) turns a flag back off
05:20	TEttinger	cool, I saw it but didn't recognize its use on that regular expressions site
05:20	TEttinger	what time zone are you in, amalloy?
05:21	amalloy	heh, my client refused your ctcp?
05:21	amalloy	pacific
05:22	TEttinger	same here
05:23	SagiCZ1	hi, could u just hint me a little bit how to do this?
05:23	SagiCZ1	[:a :b :c :d] -----> [[:a :b] [:b :c] [:c :d]]
05:23	TEttinger	,(vector (reductions vector [:a :b :c :d]))
05:23	clojurebot	[(:a [:a :b] [[:a :b] :c] [[[:a :b] :c] :d])]
05:24	TEttinger	uh that's not right :P
05:24	jkj	(partition-all 2 1 [:a :b :c :d]) ?
05:24	SagiCZ1	,(partition-all 2 1 [:a :b :c :d])
05:24	clojurebot	((:a :b) (:b :c) (:c :d) (:d))
05:24	TEttinger	,(partition 2 1 [:a :b :c :d])
05:24	clojurebot	((:a :b) (:b :c) (:c :d))
05:24	SagiCZ1	not bad
05:24	amalloy	partition, not partition-all
05:25	jkj	(mapv vec (partition 2 1 [:a :b :c :d]))
05:25	TEttinger	that too if they should be vectors
05:25	amalloy	or ##(let [xs '[a b c d]] (map list xs (rest xs))), just for fun
05:25	lazybot	⇒ ((a b) (b c) (c d))
05:25	jkj	and this for vectors
05:25	SagiCZ1	but guys!
05:25	jkj	damn.. i have bound , to / in irssi
05:25	SagiCZ1	i wanted "a little hint" !
05:25	TEttinger	heheh
05:25	TEttinger	it's a little task
05:25	SagiCZ1	heh
05:26	TEttinger	the regexes were a legitimate hard problem because they involve leaving clojure land!
05:29	amalloy	note, by the way, that javascript doesn't support inline flags, so (?s) or whatever won't work in cljs
05:30	amalloy	though i think if you put them at the very front of the regex, the cljs compiler magically moves them to the global flags section, turning #"(?s)foo" into /foo/s
05:41	SagiCZ1	do we have square root in clojure?
05:41	SagiCZ1	how can i static import it from Math? so i can use (sqrt 3) instaed of (Math/sqrt 3) ?
05:45	notofi	SagiCZ1: (def qrt [n] (Math/sqrt n))
05:47	hyPiRion	SagiCZ1: https://github.com/baznex/imports
05:49	wjlroe	Here's a bizare implementation of fizzbuzz https://gist.github.com/wjlroe/90b00fda936fd510ddd6 that I based on one my friend wrote in Go https://gist.github.com/jcinnamond/34177e064e861704ac81 It uses types rather than control structures, if anyone is interested
05:53	hyPiRion	peculiar
05:58	mpenet	"no control structures" but very "goto"'ish
05:59	wjlroe	yeah, it's just a bit of fun
06:00	hyPiRion	Ohhh
06:00	hyPiRion	no control structures
06:00	wjlroe	Also, I tried doing the same thing in Rust, which was pretty tricky https://gist.github.com/wjlroe/dec2b2d198161b8454d0
06:01	hyPiRion	wjlroe: have you been working with Rust much?
06:02	wjlroe	hyPiRion, that gist is the sum total of my time with Rust. It really made my head hurt and I kept wishing it was Haskell
06:02	mpenet	I dabbled a bit with rust as well
06:03	wjlroe	I would like to do more Rust but I don't have a suitable project for it at the moment.
06:03	mpenet	well, it's very different from haskell for sure. all the ownership/lifetime stuff for instance
06:04	wjlroe	I don't know about that, but it seems to want to be a faster more low level language
06:04	mpenet	yes
06:05	mpenet	C with cool compile time stuff to prevent common mistakes, more or less
06:05	mpenet	nice language imho
06:05	wjlroe	Like Go but with a better type system
06:06	mpenet	and no GC :}
06:06	hyPiRion	yeah, it feels like a sane C++ with guard rails for bad memory management
06:06	wjlroe	yeah that too
06:09	clgv	a statemachine for fizzbuzz? :P
06:09	wjlroe	yup. I hope that in the future I can come up with even more outlanding ways to do fizzbuzz
06:10	wjlroe	s/outlanding/outlandish/
06:10	clgv	wjlroe: how about a concise clojure version with "cond->" ? ;)
06:10	wjlroe	Too sensible
06:11	wjlroe	Fizzbuzz isn't business logic, it's a way to express your creative side
06:11	clgv	ok then try a version with dependency injection based on spring ;)
06:11	wjlroe	That's more like it
06:11	clgv	"enterprise fizzbuzz" ;)
06:20	mavbozo	i'm trying to solve this problem http://www.4clojure.com/problem/95
06:21	mavbozo	about recognizing binary tree
06:21	mavbozo	so far, I only found the solution with using ordinary recursion
06:21	mavbozo	but it might blow up the call stack if the tree is too big
06:21	mavbozo	is there any solution using recur?
06:22	wjlroe	mavbozo, if you can use recursion then you should be able to use loop+recur
06:25	mavbozo	wjlroe: i try to solve using loop recur, but i'm having trouble on putting the recur in tail position
06:26	wjlroe	mavbozo, oh. so your recursive solution didn't tail recur? Ok.
06:28	mavbozo	wjlroe: yes, i did not use recur at all in my first solution
06:29	clgv	mavbozo: well it cant blow the stack on the examples there - except you are running it on some kind of microcontroller ;)
06:33	mavbozo	clgv: yeah, but i can't help think about it. As I recall from my courses years ago--when using common lisp or scheme/racket, using recursion is a straight forward solution and I don't have to think about blowing up the stack because the compiler do some tail-recur optimization. But, now in clojure I have to think hard about it.
06:34	clgv	mavbozo: no you only have to think about it, when you have large data that causes large stack consumption. otherwise you couldnt use recursion in java at all ;)
06:47	clgv	mavbozo: btw it's not true that you dont have to think hard - in both cases the hard part is to come up with a tail recursion
06:48	clgv	the difference in clojure is that you explicitely declare it as tail recursion by using `recur`
06:53	hhenkel	Hi all, I got currently a hard time to change some code I wrote 2 months ago and I haven't touched clojure since then. Can someone please give me a hint how to change this code: https://www.refheap.com/89693 that it is not returning a vector but a hash-map with "unique" id?
06:54	mavbozo	clgv: i see what you mean. i find it hard to find the tail-recursion's solution.
06:54	hhenkel	I'm aware that I need to change the (vec), but I'm currently not getting how to have something like a counter added to the (hash-map) as a key.
06:56	clgv	mavbozo: for problems that are not inherently tail-recursive the general solution is to build the "stack" on the heap
06:58	mavbozo	clgv: so this binary-tree recognition is not naturally tail-recursive?
06:59	clgv	mavbozo: yeah, it is not. since you usually need to perform a recursive call for each branch of a node
07:00	clgv	mavbozo: but you can maintain a list of branches to investigate and thus make it tail-recursive
07:05	mavbozo	clgv: thank you for your explanation and suggestion
07:14	Duke-	hhenkel: this might work https://www.refheap.com/89697
07:15	clgv	Duke-: hhenkel: zipmap
07:15	clgv	(zipmap (range) (for ...))
07:16	Duke-	oh yeah
07:41	hhenkel	clgv: Thanks.
07:41	hhenkel	Duke-: ^^
08:11	Kneiva	wjlroe: http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/The-Fizz-Buzz-from-Outer-Space.aspx
08:14	bounb	ha
08:14	wjlroe	Kneiva, I haven't read dailywtf for years since it's a bit too close to reality for comfort
08:15	Kneiva	just thought it funny that you were talking about fizz buzz today and that just published
08:17	wjlroe	Totally, and that is the best logarithm I've ever seen
08:17	Kneiva	=)
08:18	wjlroe	I mean we laugh now, but in several hundred years these scraps of notepaper will be like Fermat's last theorem
08:18	mavbozo	i thought that fizbuzz solution without control structure is outer-space enough,then comes a solution only using arithmetic operators
08:20	clgv	I heard a salesguy advertise his project when he started talking of the clever "alogarithms" involved - a verbal typing error ;)
08:20	clgv	*product
09:30	lvh	Hm. I wrote a functio nwith a default argument (w/ destructuring), but it doesn't appear to compile, and I can't figure out why.
09:30	lvh	https://gist.github.com/lvh/4fb459d55f2e541765e3#file-fn-clj-L13
09:30	lvh	the arg line is [components & {:keys [dev-mode] :or {dev-mode false}}]
09:30	justin_smith	lvh: you provided the wrong number of arguments
09:31	lvh	justin_smith: this is one of those cases where you wonder about it for 15 minutes
09:31	lvh	then you ask, and suddenly realize, OH right duh.
09:31	justin_smith	so you figured it out? - that function as defined will always need an odd argument count
09:32	lvh	justin_smith: Yeah. I was passing dev-mode positionally, and expecting it to work anyway.
09:32	lvh	(Python leftover I guess)
09:32	justin_smith	positional: [components & [dev-mode]]
09:32	justin_smith	that will default to nil
09:32	justin_smith	which is as good as false, usually
09:39	lvh	hm. are let blocks supposed to work inside compojure routes?
09:39	lvh	(It seems they don't: only the last block works)
09:39	lvh	err, route
09:40	clgv	lvh: where do you put the let-block?
09:40	lvh	clgv: inside a context
09:41	clgv	lvh: well I guess the simple rules is, they are supposed to work everywhere where abody expr processing the request is expected
09:43	lvh	https://gist.github.com/lvh/dc967bc751edc30f429a
09:43	lvh	I hope that clarifies intent :)
09:43	lvh	I do think I understand why it doesn't work, yes
09:44	lvh	(not really side-effectful: just a macro that sees what children it has)
09:45	visof	hi
09:46	bounb	hi visof
09:47	clgv	lvh: remember that `let` does only return the result of the last form!
09:48	clgv	lvh: hence your GET is lost
09:49	clgv	lvh: you could have a look at how `context? works and build a different version that does not expect multiple routes but a list of routs
09:49	clgv	`context` ^^
09:54	doctorm	New to clojure, can someone tell me if this function is idiomatic or if it’s still has imperative feel - https://www.refheap.com/89701
09:54	mi6x3m	doctorm: welcome, sec
09:56	mi6x3m	doctorm: it can go a lot shorter :)
09:56	mi6x3m	i mean, it's idiomatic but nobody will write it that way
09:56	doctorm	mi6x3m: Thanks, would you mind telling me how?
09:56	mi6x3m	yes
09:56	doctorm	That’s what I was worried about
09:56	mi6x3m	2 good ways
09:57	mi6x3m	(<= low (count (str v)) high)
09:57	samflores	I think even in a non-functional using a if-else to return a boolean value is not idiomatic
09:57	wjlroe	doctorm, one point - (if condition true false) is the same as just condition
09:57	samflores	just return the value of the condition
09:57	doctorm	Well, there is a nil check there too
09:57	TimMc	mi6x3m: Are you saying to drop the ability to use nil bounds?
09:57	mi6x3m	ok, my bad :)
09:58	mi6x3m	skipped the nil bounds visually
09:59	doctorm	samflores: Right, the if could definitely be gotten rid of entirely
09:59	mi6x3m	doctorm: well except for the if, seems ok
09:59	mi6x3m	pretty ok
10:00	samflores	i'd put the string as the first parameter too, but it's just matter of taste :D
10:00	clgv	huh metrics-clojure has `start`/`stop` for timers in its docs but they do not seem to exist
10:01	maxthoursie	doctorm: the docstring goes before the args
10:01	doctorm	Ok, thanks for the spot check everyone. samflores: I don’t put the string as the first parameter because I need to use it with partial
10:01	doctorm	maxthoursie: Missed that, thank you
10:01	karls	doctorm, mi6x3m, could you do something like (<= (or low 0) cnt (or high Integer/MAX_VALUE)) ?
10:01	samflores	it makes sense
10:02	TimMc	clgv: There are a few places the docs don't match.
10:02	TimMc	The params for meter and defmeter are wrong as well.
10:02	clgv	TimMc: do you know if I can achieve that intended use case somehow else?
10:02	lvh	clgv: will do :) my first guess involved apply
10:03	lvh	clgv: doesn't work so well with macros unfortunately
10:03	clgv	lvh: ;)
10:03	maxthoursie	doctorm: and for future if statements, put the else on a new row
10:04	doctorm	maxthoursie: Will do, thanks
10:04	maxthoursie	doctorm: what seems to be ideomatic is to either put all arguments on one line, or to put all of them on new lines
10:04	clgv	TimMc: ah might be a versioning problem. latest master has thos functions
10:06	maxthoursie	karls: I think that's worse, you're introducing a unneccesary limit
10:08	TimMc	clgv: I suspect you can just call .start and .stop directly. :-)
10:10	karls	maxthoursie: true. depending on the context i would think it's ok.
10:11	clgv	TimMc: almost. it's `.time` and `.stop`
10:12	maxthoursie	karls: definitely could be, but wrapped up in a function like this, I would argue it's incidental complexity
10:13	lvh	When I use http-kit's server, it's awfully quiet. What's the easiest thing I can do to get some logging on stdout/err?
10:14	karls	maxthoursie: agreed. saving a few lines and introducing that limit is probably not worth it.
10:21	justin_smith	lvh: you could make a middleware that logs details about the request
10:58	lvh	tbaldridge: hi! just subscrubed to your pivotshare videos. Cool stuff :)
10:58	lvh	tbaldridge: I know you're probably swamped with requests, but have you done anything on core.async http servers?
10:59	lvh	the obvious thing is http-kit, but http-kit's server interface (being borrowed from ring) is either a) synchronously return a response (map) or b) use this channel abstraction that isn't core.async channels and ignores middleware
10:59	tbaldridge	lvh, I haven't yet, but I'll put it on the list
10:59	lvh	tbaldridge: Awesome, thanks :)
10:59	tbaldridge	lvh: right, while Pedestal supports full async from top to bottom. It'd be nice to compare/contrast the two
10:59	lvh	I may end up just trying to write a bunch of (thread ...) blocks in there
11:00	mpenet	shameless plug: https://github.com/mpenet/jet
11:00	mpenet	it's jetty9 + core.async in short, has both client/servers
11:00	tbaldridge	mpenet: bookmarked, thanks!
11:00	mpenet	yw
11:06	lvh	mpenet: Thanks, that looks awesome!
11:07	rweir	mpenet, is jetty9 itself async, or is it getting wrapped in threads?
11:07	mpenet	it has an async api and it should be quite good at it
11:07	lvh	mpenet: I take it that means all my ring middleware Just Works(TM)?
11:08	mpenet	yes, the jetty-adapter is vanilla clojure adapter, the async part is done via the option map
11:08	rweir	ah nice
11:08	mpenet	so just change imports and your code works, then you can work on the ws part
11:10	lvh	mpenet: this is pretty cool; the thing I'm writing can essentially be described as "when a request comes in, do a ton of coordination based on ~20 other requests that you only find out at runtime"
11:10	mpenet	lvh: the tests for instance are basically a copy paste work from the jetty adapter that comes with ring + ws/clients tests
11:10	lvh	(i.e. I really really want core.async)
11:11	rweir	lvh, how're you liking c.a vs twisted?
11:12	lvh	rweir: it's like reinventing everything all over again ;)
11:12	lvh	sorry, not reinventing; discovering is the word I'm looking for
11:12	lvh	as in, I am trying to find out how to spell gatherResults
11:13	lvh	rweir: I think Clojure is a significantly better programming language than Python. Obviously Twisted has had some headway in terms of maturity.
11:13	lvh	rweir: Unfortunately my major gripe is the same: the default is blocking :(
11:15	pydave6367	lvh: How did you find the transition? Did you find any particularly good resources for someone coming from a Python background?
11:15	lvh	mpenet: So, I'm trying to figure out if this does what I think; does this mean that the ring handler can just return a channel that fires with a response map, instead of synchronously-a-response-map?
11:15	lvh	pydave6367: well, I used to be a schemer, so maybe it wasn't so hard for me :)
11:16	pydave6367	Sounds a better way to do it!
11:17	mpenet	lvh: yes kinda, if you look at the examples here https://github.com/mpenet/jet#websocket , the async handlers basically receive a map of 3 channels, one for input data, one for output (response) and a control channel (errors, deconnections)
11:18	mpenet	lvh: so you have control at the rate of input from the clients via the :in channel, you can respond by putting stuff into :out and handle the rest via :ctrl. This plays nicely with core.async/alts!
11:18	lvh	mpenet: Gotcha. I am not trying to use websockets though; I just want to do regular HTTP requests with high concurrency and while the requests can potentially take a long time :)
11:19	mpenet	lvh: ah no, this is websocket only
11:20	lvh	mpenet: ah, alas :(
11:20	rweir	pydave6367, I've found 'joy of clojure' pretty good for me, coming from python - the biggest problems are that I can never remember how to destructure, and end up contorting my code to make the right thing end up as the final expression, until I remember I should just make more functions
11:22	rweir	lvh, have you used any mainstream-ish languages that make asynchronicity the default?
11:22	bounb	pydave6367: i'm loving clojurebook.com. just forget about python and dive in
11:23	lvh	rweir: Erlang doesn't count I guess?
11:23	mpenet	js either
11:23	pydave6367	rweir: Yeah I've been burned by destructiring a few times too. I've been reading the oreilly book but I'll order a copy of Joy of CLojure based on your recommendation. Thank you!
11:24	rweir	lvh, mpenet ah, both good points
11:39	reiddraper	gfredericks amalloy: new test.check fun, a 'shuffle' generator: https://github.com/clojure/test.check/commit/43377ed0954e0066a4bbfb1345cf28af9d28312a
11:41	gfredericks	reiddraper: hey hey nice nice
11:41	reiddraper	shrinks toward making fewer and fewer swaps, so [0 1 2 3 4] when shuffled, might shrink to [1 0 2 3 4]
11:42	gfredericks	righto
11:42	gfredericks	I have a subset generator in test.chuck
11:42	gfredericks	...not sure why I felt that necessary to mention
11:43	reiddraper	oh neat. would love a pull request.. uh, i mean. jira ticket, for that :D
11:43	gfredericks	subsequence might be more accurate
11:43	gfredericks	i.e. it doesn't really use sets
11:43	gfredericks	I used it just yesterday to generate divisors based on prime factorization
11:45	clgv	reiddraper: :D
11:57	noncom	when installing prelude on emacs, what is more common - to let it settle fully in .emacs.d, when init.el is the prelude init.el, or do i better keep it in a subdir of .emacs.d and simply refer it from my own main init.el ?
11:58	ToBeReplaced	noncom: the former
11:58	technomancy	noncom: I would really recommend building out your own init.el and stealing things from other sources as you find them. it's a lot less disorienting and more debuggable when things go wrong.
11:58	technomancy	we get a lot of people in #emacs who are confused about basic behaviour because they installed a starter kit like the prelude and don't actually understand why it's working the way it does.
11:59	noncom	i see.. :)
12:01	ToBeReplaced	valid point from technomancy -- as the counterpoint, i was someone who "drank from the firehose", and now i do direct updates from prelude with no modifications... maybe depends on your learning style?
12:01	rweir	whoever wrote the emacs-starter-kit eventually just changed it to be a set of uh better defaults, also ;-p
12:02	technomancy	rweir: yeah that was me
12:03	rweir	yeah, I know :)
12:05	noncom	ToBeReplaced: yeah, i guess it really depends on the usage pattern
12:05	rweir	fwiw I would highly recommend writing your own init.el too
12:05	noncom	but good to know that people have opinions regarding these points
12:06	noncom	rweir: i have a long way to go until i really imagine what my init.el should be... for now i guess i am just collecting all kinds of i-might-need-this things..
12:06	noncom	in the init.el
12:07	TimMc	Latest thing I am happy with: ace-jump-mode
12:07	TimMc	It's a little hard to explain.
12:07	ToBeReplaced	ha, yeah... i'm in the "all of these other people really care about their environment... i'll just do what they do"... and, prelude in particular has been really responsive about issues/prs so gradually i haven't needed anything in my own personal.el
12:08	ToBeReplaced	my only unhappiness with it is how wide it makes the attack vector for reading my home directory
12:09	noncom	the ace-jump-mode i am reading is a nice nav aid
12:09	mi6x3m	nth doesn't work on sets wtf?
12:09	noncom	mi6x3m: sets are unordered?
12:09	mi6x3m	noncom: first and rest work.....
12:10	noncom	haha
12:10	tbaldridge	mi6x3m: what is nth on a unordered thing?
12:10	mi6x3m	tbaldridge: what is first on an unordered thing?
12:10	tbaldridge	mi6x3m: that's because first and rest convert their inputs into a ordered thing
12:10	mi6x3m	tbaldridge: oh?
12:10	justin_smith	lvh: I don't think it is that the channel returned by ring ignores the middleware, rather the middleware is not written to wrap channels. But you could write your own middleware that does. Or am I missing something?
12:10	tbaldridge	first and rest are seq functions used for walking through a collection. Nth is a indexed operation.
12:11	noncom	ToBeRaplaced: i guess i'll have to experiment with init el, yeah, since th etopic is soo vast
12:11	noncom	*ToBeReplaced: sorry for mistyping the nic..
12:11	mi6x3m	tbaldridge: what is then the impact of making a set a sequence?
12:11	mi6x3m	so it can be destructured
12:11	mi6x3m	negligable I would guess?
12:11	lvh	justin_smith: That was about http-kit, not ring
12:11	mi6x3m	since the order is pretty random
12:12	lvh	justin_smith: the docs for that don't seem to suggest that middleware can be rewritten to do better
12:12	tbaldridge	mi6x3m: yeah, most things in clojure can become seqs, it's basically an immutable iterator
12:12	mi6x3m	ye though so
12:12	lvh	http://http-kit.org/server.html#channel
12:12	justin_smith	lvh: I fail to see how you couldn't write a function that takes a channel and returns a wrapped / modified channel. And if you can write that function, you can put it in a middleware.
12:15	justin_smith	lvh: oh, now I see in those docs that ring middleware is not applied to the channel. But you could put your own middleware in the on-receive / on-close blocks
12:16	lvh	justin_smith: Yes, but: 1) I'm not actually sure that you can write it as middleware, but whatever, I can wrap it 2) the channel isn't actually the abstraction I want (it wants to do a bunch of back-and-forth req/rep pairs, which makes a lot of sense if you're doing websockets or long-olling RPC, but I'm not doing that) 3) that would mean doing a bunch of work when there's clearly already an abstraction that does almost exactly what I wnat
12:18	lvh	justin_smith: the http-kit thing is a red herring because it's about long-held connections with a lot of chatter back and forth, like long-polling, http streaming, websockets, whatever
12:18	lvh	I don't actually want that
12:18	justin_smith	regarding 1), a middleware is just a function that returns another function - you can put a middleware stack inside that block - regarding the rest, you know more about this api than I do, and I frankly expected something better from http-kit than what I see so far
12:20	lvh	I think the long-polling example kind-of does what I want
12:20	tbaldridge	lvh: just going to throw out there that this is what Pedestal was designed for, not so much for WS, but middleware can be paused/resumed via core.async, as well as the response body itself.
12:20	tbaldridge	server sent events are supported though
12:20	lvh	tbaldridge: I'm actually in the super simple case of "I want all of the middleware all of the time"
12:21	lvh	really the only difference between what I want and what ring's API gives me is that ring wants me to say "here you go have a response map"
12:21	lvh	I wnat to say "here's a channel, I promise I'll throw a response map on there and then close it"
12:22	lvh	the long-polling example is nearly there, modulo the somewhat displeasing parts (1. ignoring middleware, 2. doing the rendez-vous between channels and open HTTP requests with shared mutable state)
12:23	lvh	but, in the same spirit as what justin_smith said, I don't want to accept that the answer is that terrible ;-)
12:23	lvh	maybe I should just give up and use pedestal :)
12:23	tbaldridge	lvh: that's a problem with the way ring is designed, it ties the call stack to the request/response logic. You can't suspend ring handlers and "run them later" because they already exist on the call stack.
12:24	lvh	tbaldridge: I am chuffed to see that rack/wsgi brain damage has made clojure worse, too ;-)
12:25	tbaldridge	lvh: yeah, I mean it's kindof sad. Jetty supports async, it's just ring doesn't.
12:26	tbaldridge	There's a reason Pedestal was created, and you've now found that reason.... :-)
12:28	lvh	tbaldridge: It's unfortunate because I was getting to like wrap-reload & prone.middleware.wrap-exceptions
12:29	SagiCZ1	whats the best way to do simple if (..) else if (..) else if(..) else (..) in clojure?
12:29	SagiCZ1	cond has no default action
12:29	tbaldridge	lvh: yeah, Pedestal has a bit of a learning curve, but after you learn it there's some real "oh...wow... I can do that?" moments.
12:29	mi6x3m	SagiCZ1: cond has a default action
12:29	SagiCZ1	:else?
12:29	mi6x3m	SagiCZ1: yes
12:29	SagiCZ1	,(boolean :any-keyword)
12:30	clojurebot	true
12:30	SagiCZ1	thats just a trick
12:30	mi6x3m	SagiCZ1: well, it wil be evaluated last...
12:30	mi6x3m	so it's half of a trick
12:30	justin_smith	by using a test that is always true, you create a default branch
12:31	SagiCZ1	if it works.. ok
12:31	justin_smith	,(cond false 0 nil 1 :default 2)
12:31	clojurebot	2
12:31	clgv	,(macroexpand-1 '(cond (zero? n) :1 :else :2))
12:31	clojurebot	(if (zero? n) :1 (clojure.core/cond :else :2))
12:32	clgv	,(macroexpand-1 '(cond :else :2))
12:32	clojurebot	(if :else :2 (clojure.core/cond))
12:32	clgv	ah cond could get rid of the last `if` but it does not seem to do that
12:32	justin_smith	,(macroexpand-1 '(clojure.core/cond))
12:32	clojurebot	nil
12:33	justin_smith	the last part is not an if
12:33	clgv	justin_smith: I didnt say so. I referred to the last `if`
12:34	justin_smith	oh, since it knows at compile time the arg is always truthy
12:34	clgv	does the clojure compiler eliminate `if` for always `true` or always `false`?
12:35	technomancy	clgv: no, but hotspot might
12:36	clgv	technomancy: right
12:36	clgv	technomancy: always forgetting that awesome beast ;)
12:50	SagiCZ1	i have kind of off-topic question.. do you have any idea how can i find out the shortest distance from polygon to a point? i have already worked out the shortest distance from a line segment to a point.. but dont know how to put it together
12:51	mi6x3m	SagiCZ1: 3d polygon?
12:53	SagiCZ1	2d
12:54	justin_smith	treat the closest edge of the polygon as a line segment?
12:54	SagiCZ1	but how to determine "closest" edge
12:54	mi6x3m	SagiCZ1: is it convext?
12:54	mi6x3m	-t
12:54	SagiCZ1	mi6x3m: not necesarrily
12:54	mi6x3m	SagiCZ1: well then find the distance to all edges and get the min
12:55	SagiCZ1	define "distance"
12:55	SagiCZ1	it cant be the perpendicular distance
12:55	justin_smith	if it was convex you could walk it until a side is closer than both neighbors, but with the ability to have a concave shape, you could have a local minima that is not the true minima
12:55	SagiCZ1	because then if the point is on the same line as the linesegment.. the distance is zero now matter how far it actually is from the polygon
12:55	mi6x3m	SagiCZ1: distance is usually the perpendicular distance
12:56	SagiCZ1	then the "closest" edge doesnt have to be close at all
12:56	SagiCZ1	the point could be infinitely far away.. just on the same line as the edge
12:56	mi6x3m	well then, try to find the nearest intersection point
12:57	mi6x3m	by checking the distance to each vertex
12:57	SagiCZ1	interesection point of what?
12:58	mi6x3m	SagiCZ1: of a vector through your point with the polygon
12:58	SagiCZ1	vector through my point in question and where is the other point, center of polygon??
12:58	lazybot	SagiCZ1: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
13:00	mi6x3m	SagiCZ1: the other point is some point on the polygon
13:00	mi6x3m	though the shortest distance will always be perpendicular to an edg
13:02	TimMc	mi6x3m: Not true.
13:02	SagiCZ1	i think i have an idea
13:02	SagiCZ1	maybe its what u meant
13:03	mi6x3m	TimMc: oh?
13:03	SagiCZ1	i will connect all polygon vertices with my point in question.. determine all intersections of those connections with polygon segments, and then find closest intersection to my point
13:04	TimMc	Yeah, think of a triangle. Think of infinitely long rectangles sitting on each of the edges.
13:04	TimMc	Everywhere those rectangles do not cover, the shortest line to the polygon goes to a vertex, and is not perpendicular to an edge.
13:05	TimMc	e.g. a point that the triangle is "pointing at"
13:06	TimMc	SagiCZ1: mi6x3m was right earlier, though -- just iterate through the edges and find the one that has the shortest distance to the point. You can add in optimizations later.
13:06	SagiCZ1	TimMc: that wont work
13:07	TimMc	Provide a counterexample.
13:07	SagiCZ1	distance point - segment is the same as distance point-line .. therefore the point can be anywhere on the line which the segment lies on, to have a distance of zero
13:08	TimMc	Then you've defined distance-to-segment incorrectly.
13:09	SagiCZ1	define it differently then
13:09	noprompt	bbloom, dnolen_: for cljs macros that use macroexpand-1 should i be using the analyzers macroexpand-1 instead of clojure's?
13:10	TimMc	SagiCZ1: Perpendicular distance to the segment's line if the perpendicular crosses the segment, else distance to the nearest endpoint.
13:10	aperiodi1	couldn't you just find the two closest points and then check the segment in between those to see if that gets any closer than the closest point?
13:10	aperiodi1	nope
13:10	aperiodi1	nevermind
13:11	SagiCZ1	TimMc: sounds reasonable..
13:11	SagiCZ1	TimMc: i will try to implement that
13:12	TimMc	SagiCZ1: Are you sure you want to reimplement collision-detection or whatever it is you're doing, or would you rather use a library?
13:14	mping	hi
13:14	SagiCZ1	TimMc: yes im doing a simple collision detection.. it is an exercise and i will always have only 2 objects colliding, ball-ground.. i understand that there are libraries that handle this well and are better optimized then what i will end up doing... but since i use one of them (JBullet) regularly i would like to try how it works inside :)
13:17	mping	hi guys can you give me some pointers?
13:17	mping	I want to calculate the intersection and difference of two lists of maps based on a given key
13:18	TimMc	mping: That could mean many things, can you give an example or a more specific problem statement?
13:18	mping	sure, in javascript:
13:19	mping	suppose I have
13:19	mping	v1 = [{name "a" val 1}, {name "b" val 2}]
13:19	mping	v2 = [{name "a" val 3}]
13:20	mping	I want to calculate the intersection based on the 'name' key
13:20	mping	so (intersect v1 v2) would be {name "a" intersection [{name "a" val 1 } {name "a" val 3}]}
13:21	justin_smith	mping: group-by
13:21	mping	and (difference v1 v2) would be [{name "b" val 2}]
13:22	mping	justin_smith: I have to group-by and process the aggregation by hand?
13:22	justin_smith	hmm - maybe not
13:23	justin_smith	mping: if I were doing this, I would take each collection, and run group-by based on the "name" key
13:23	justin_smith	then use select-keys / dissoc to construct the union and difference
13:23	mping	hmm didn't remember select-keys
13:25	mping	maybe I can do two for's, so I know what's missing in where
13:26	doctorm	When you have a function that’s uses a map to declare symbols, like (defn foo [& {:keys [bar]}]), what is that called so I can read the docs on it?
13:27	noprompt	i just got totally bit by this https://gist.github.com/noprompt/acf7327ba3b874d25e59
13:27	justin_smith	mping: to get the union, take the union of the keys of each grouped-map from the vectors, and then merge the selected keys
13:27	noprompt	why does the clojurescript analyzer expand it differently
13:27	justin_smith	doctorm: destructuring
13:27	doctorm	justin_smith: thanks
13:29	TimMc	noprompt: Looks like it didn't get expanded at all.
13:29	noprompt	right?
13:35	SagiCZ1	,(min (range 5))
13:35	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4)
13:35	SagiCZ1	why "min" hates lazy-seqs?
13:35	SagiCZ1	,(min [0 1 2 3 4])
13:35	clojurebot	[0 1 2 3 4]
13:35	SagiCZ1	,(apply min (range 5))
13:35	clojurebot	0
13:35	SagiCZ1	ooooooh.. got it
13:36	justin_smith	if you provided a second arg after the sequence, min would have given you an error
13:36	SagiCZ1	,(min [0 1 2] [3 4 5])
13:36	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
13:36	justin_smith	but it has a shortcut to return the arg, if it only has one arg
13:37	SagiCZ1	justin_smith: what is that useful for?
13:37	justin_smith	it allows a concise implementation
13:37	justin_smith	$source min
13:37	lazybot	min is http://is.gd/uqY0Pg
13:40	technomancy	works for clojure too: http://thisotplife.tumblr.com/post/96352585529/using-erlang-for-a-one-off-script
13:40	justin_smith	hah
13:40	SagiCZ1	so how would a simple lighter look?
13:42	SagiCZ1	python?
13:42	clojurebot	yes let's have another dict subclass
13:42	SagiCZ1	hahahaha that bot cracks me up
13:43	TimMc	technomancy: I think OSHA would have something to say about that. Possibly "HRRRK!"
13:43	justin_smith	those machines are nothing to fuck around with - worked with a dude, someone tried to lift him out of a collapsed trench with the bucket, cut him in half
13:44	technomancy	TimMc: OSHA?
13:44	justin_smith	occupational safety and health administration
13:45	technomancy	hehe
13:46	justin_smith	as in "get down off the fork of that lift, or osha's going to hand me another $20,000 fine"
13:49	TimMc	They set regulations to keep employers from endangering their employees (or enouraging the employees to endanger themselves.)
13:50	TimMc	Some of the regulations get a little silly, but on the whole they do good work.
14:02	stompyj	how do I start a repl on an interface other then 127.0.0.1
14:02	stompyj	example, I want to connect to a repl running on an ec2 instance
14:03	stompyj	but, lein repl only seems to be able to connect to ec2’s local network interface, which is an internal network
14:03	justin_smith	stompyj: use an ssh tunnel
14:03	justin_smith	unless you just want to share the ec2 instance with the entire world
14:03	TimMc	Or port-forwarding in the policies, which you really don't want in this case.
14:04	stompyj	I’d prefer to just open that single port, to the specific IP of this office
14:04	TimMc	(what justin_smith said)
14:04	stompyj	but yeah, I guess I’ll ssh in this case
14:04	stompyj	a bit messy
14:04	stompyj	but will work
14:04	amalloy	so much less messy than allowing arbitrary code execution on a public port, though
14:05	stompyj	50/50 :D
14:06	justin_smith	stompyj: with port forwarding, you just run ssh in a terminal somewhere, and as long as that remains running, you can connect to the repl port as if it were local
14:06	stompyj	so, the answer is there is no way via command-line to tell lein repl to listen on an alternative interface?
14:06	justin_smith	stompyj: oh, you can make it listen to the whole world, it's just a terrible idea (nrepl that is - dunno if lein exposes the options)
14:07	technomancy	you can do it, you just shouldn't
14:07	TimMc	What would that look like?
14:07	technomancy	lein repl :headless :host 0.0.0.0
14:07	stompyj	yeah, that doesn’t work
14:07	stompyj	thats what I was asking about
14:07	technomancy	or maybe LEIN_REPL_HOST=0.0.0.0 lein repl :headless
14:07	stompyj	it just defaults to 127.0.0.1
14:07	stompyj	I’ll try LEIN_REPL_HOST
14:07	stompyj	thanks
14:08	technomancy	wait did I say that out loud
14:08	TimMc	You were tricked!
14:08	TimMc	stompyj: I hope you don't care about that box.
14:09	stompyj	lol thanks :)
14:11	justin_smith	I hope you expect everyone that accesses that box to get rooted
14:11	noprompt	i sincerely hate clojure's error messages.
14:12	noprompt	Caused by: clojure.lang.ExceptionInfo: nth not supported on this type: Symbol at line 24 src/xyz/core.cljs
14:12	cbp	that looks like clojurescript man
14:12	noprompt	it is.
14:12	noprompt	i want to help improve these kinds of messages.
14:12	justin_smith	also, "nth not supported on this type: Symbol" may be awkwardly worded, but the error is clear
14:13	noprompt	9 times out of 10 whenever there's an error to be thrown there's enough context to be prescriptive about it.
14:13	cbp	I think you can just use the browser debugger there if you have source maps on
14:13	noprompt	justin_smith: i've been at this for two and a half years, i'm sorry that message is never clear.
14:13	noprompt	i know what it means but it doesn't give me any hope of figuring out why that happened.
14:13	noprompt	there's zero context.
14:14	amalloy	noprompt: really, a stack trace, error message, and exact line number is zero context?
14:14	noprompt	amalloy: i can't see the environment.
14:14	technomancy	the line number might even be correct.
14:14	lvh	hm, when I watched the video for prone this morning, there was an emacs plugin that auto-sorted the requires/imports in ns
14:15	lvh	any idea what that thing's called?
14:15	noprompt	amalloy: the line numbers help to a degree but there's a point when that's not helpful any longer.
14:15	technomancy	lvh: sounds like slamhound
14:15	amalloy	noprompt: if you pasted the stacktrace and the source file, i bet it would take only a minute or two for someone unfamiliar with your codebase to figure it out
14:15	lvh	technomancy: sounds dangerous; I don't want to be assassinated
14:16	noprompt	imho programmers don't know how to create constructive error messages. error messages are a form of communication and most programmers simply fail to communicate the nature of problems when they occur through error messages.
14:16	technomancy	amalloy: "only a minute or two" sounds like abysmally low standards
14:16	amalloy	technomancy: i gave myself some wiggle room
14:16	noprompt	this is because, again imho, programmers do no understand that an error message is a form of communication with the consumer of a library.
14:16	amalloy	i really expect it to take a lot less than that
14:17	stompyj	actually, it’s not really lein repl’s fault, ifconfig and netstat return crazytown data on ec2 boxes now that I’m looking at tit
14:17	stompyj	it*
14:17	noprompt	often there is enough contextual information to help the programmer solve the bug but it's often elided because they don't realize they can actually help the programmer they're trying to communicate with because they've lived in a world where only shitty error messages are ever printed to the screen.
14:18	technomancy	noprompt: you could try to improve it with nrepl middleware
14:18	lvh	huh, slamhound is a dep not a plugin
14:18	technomancy	fixing the root of the problem seems really unlikely, but you could route around the brain damage
14:19	stompyj	noprompt: You’re probably right, but that’s a very large problem to solve
14:19	noprompt	technomancy: that was actually the direction i was going next, but i had to rant first. :)
14:19	cbp	in cljs at least you get a pretty decent debugger for free
14:19	dbasch	to be fair, "nth not supported on this type: Symbol" could come from deep inside some library
14:19	lvh	technomancy: thanks!
14:19	stompyj	I don’t actually find clojure stacktraces to be as bad as people say
14:19	noprompt	stompyj: it's not just with clojure though, it's with almost every programming language, operating system, or application i've ever used.
14:19	amalloy	dbasch: but in practice it usually doesn't. almost always, it's because you forgot some square brackets somewhere in let or defn
14:20	stompyj	noprompt: yeah, I agree, I just mean, thats a HUGE problem to solve
14:20	stompyj	once you dig into it
14:20	noprompt	my sister asked me the other day what "Error: 404 not found" meant. turns out she's not an http expert.
14:20	dbasch	amalloy: first google result: https://github.com/LightTable/LightTable/issues/51
14:20	cbp	parse errors are pretty brutal though
14:20	amalloy	oh, in ns. that's right
14:20	cbp	UNABLE TO FIND CLOSING TAG {
14:20	noprompt	stompyj: like i said though, often there is enough information available to provide i really decent error message that's helpful. this is especially the case in clojure with ex-info, &env, etc.
14:21	noprompt	"really decent". wow. extreme decency.
14:21	dbasch	noprompt: but 404 is almost pop culture at this point
14:22	noprompt	dbasch: that's assumptive.
14:22	mdrogalis	noprompt: dbasch just dissed your sister. Oooo.
14:22	amalloy	noprompt: it seems totally absurd to say "error messages are really easy to get right, and yet weirdly all software in the world gets it super-wrong"
14:22	dbasch	noprompt: type 404 into google, or error 404
14:22	dbasch	if pasting an error verbatim into google gives you what you want, then it’s decent enough imho
14:22	noprompt	dbasch: not to mention, from a UX perspective where you're trying to communicate with the user through a dialog it's especially poor form.
14:23	dbasch	noprompt: just playing devil’s advocate
14:23	noprompt	amalloy: i never said they were. i said they could be better. notably, i was suggesting they could be prescriptive more often than not.
14:24	noprompt	for example "You gave me the wrong kind of input" could be stated as "You gave me this kind of input but I expect this kind of input."
14:24	amalloy	i don't think users would appreciate that. prescriptive error messages sound too much like sass. "mircosoft.com not found. Try browsing to a website that exists."
14:24	noprompt	and occasionally you get lucky and you get that from someone who gives a shit.
14:25	noprompt	amalloy: i simply do not agree.
14:25	technomancy	racket does a great job with this
14:25	noprompt	i'm sorry debugging an error message has only gotten more annoying the longer i do this.
14:25	technomancy	the beginner languages suggest "maybe add more parens?" and the regular ones assume you know what you're doing.
14:26	dbasch	technomancy: make sure your cable is plugged in
14:26	noprompt	how long have people been writing software? is it so rediculous to expect better error message out of all the technical advances we've made in the last 20 years?
14:27	tbaldridge	noprompt: sadly every error message that contains "better" logic often also contains unknown assumptions.
14:27	dbasch	noprompt: to me an error message is not as important as the debuggability of the cause
14:27	noprompt	seriously. if as much effort was put into making debugging software as making writing concurrent software easier debugging would be a snap.
14:27	technomancy	noprompt: massive indifference is the easiest explanation
14:28	noprompt	technomancy: fair enough.
14:28	noprompt	tl;dr how can i improve these messages?
14:28	tbaldridge	I'd also argue that hard-to-understand errors can be the side-effect of badly designed code.
14:29	tbaldridge	is the message cryptic, or is my program so complex I can't understand where the message is from?
14:29	noprompt	tbaldridge: and i'd argue you always need context to make that call.
14:29	TimMc	tbaldridge: Such as Clojure's compiler making it difficult to distinguish compiler bugs from syntax errors?
14:29	TimMc	Oh, you mean the code-base being developed.
14:30	noprompt	the problem i'm having is from a macro which, in one project compiles fine and in another explodes with an "nth on Symbol" error.
14:30	justin_smith	tbaldridge: part of this scenario in clojure has to do with our tendency to not validate our input, and just pass it to another layer of abstraction, until finally something in clojure.core or some java interop does the actual work
14:30	Bronsa	TimMc: how many actual compiler bugs have you encoutnered to make that claim?
14:30	noprompt	i've checked macroexpand from the repl in both projects and the generated code is exactly the same.
14:30	technomancy	GIGO is a pretty deeply-baked-in assumption in Clojure
14:30	tbaldridge	justin_smith: agreed, sadly doing anything more complex would hurt performance
14:30	noprompt	but something else must be happening in one project and not in the other and i can't see it.
14:30	technomancy	witness contains? being problematic for N years
14:30	xeqi	I've hit errors where the compiler provided no info on what was missing. I think ns A depends on ns B depends on ns C and C couldn't be found was one of them
14:30	justin_smith	tbaldridge: so the error report is only going to be about the implementation details of the code we call at the top level (or the implementation details of the thing it calls, etc.)
14:31	justin_smith	tbaldridge: well, we do have these assertions that can be turned off in production after all...
14:31	ToBeReplaced	isn't there a project from GSoC that set out to improve error messages?
14:31	noprompt	tbaldridge: this is not that complex https://github.com/spellhouse/clairvoyant/blob/master/src/clairvoyant/core.clj#L115-L124
14:32	dbasch	I remember wishing I had a camera to take a picture of Windows’ BSOD back in the 90s. That was as cryptic as it comes.
14:33	noprompt	tbaldridge: and like i said it compiles and runs fine in one project but not in another with identical code. same clojurescript version etc.
14:34	TimMc	Bronsa: I'd call it a fine line between GIGO and failture to check assumptions.
14:34	noprompt	justin_smith: +100 to what you just said.
14:34	noprompt	about not validating input.
14:35	justin_smith	especially given that we have assertions we can turn off
14:35	TimMc	dbasch: Hah, yeah, remember not everybody having cameras 24/7?
14:36	noprompt	tbaldridge: the question i have to ask is, is clojure core satisfied with the state of error messages in the language?
14:36	dbasch	TimMc: no camera and no way to save the pertinent data other than painstakingly writing down hex strings
14:37	stompyj	noprompt: I don’t think any language is happy with the state of their error messages, but I think all the reasons people are giving you is why nothing has happened
14:38	tbaldridge	noprompt: I'm not a person who makes such decisions so I can't answer that question, sorry
14:38	noprompt	tbaldridge: personally, are you happy with them?
14:38	dbasch	stompyj: java is pretty decent in that sense compared to most other languages
14:39	TimMc	Java has great error messages, yeah.
14:39	tbaldridge	noprompt: as long as I get an error, yes. The worst errors are those that cause silent problems.
14:39	noprompt	iirc error messages were noted as a key pain point for many in the clojure community.
14:39	noprompt	tbaldridge: maybe you just have thicker skin. :)
14:39	tbaldridge	noprompt: I'd prefer "expected symbol, got vector" over "we just compiled code that will hack the FBI, oh is that not what you meant?"
14:40	noprompt	lol
14:40	TimMc	what
14:40	technomancy	M-x eyeroll
14:40	csd_	If I call `re-matcher` in clojure, how can I pass the matcher to Java's Matcher.start method?
14:40	tbaldridge	noprompt: my personal opinion is this, Clojure is a lisp, and lisps are extremely powerful languages, things like macros allow you to add logic to the compiler. That stuff is never going to be easy.
14:41	technomancy	tbaldridge: and yet somehow racket manages it with an even more sophisticated macro system
14:41	tbaldridge	I'd rather have transducers, core.async, macros, etc, instead of better error messages.
14:41	noprompt	tbaldridge: so what would you're approach be to "it compiles fine in project a but not project b"?
14:41	noprompt	tbaldridge: you're only making my point.
14:42	dbasch	csd_: (.start (re-matcher …))
14:42	tbaldridge	noprompt: find the differences...you most likely have one you haven't found yet. Either a clojure version, cljs version, library, plugin, lein, jvm, something is different. Even left over aot class files or stale .class files.
14:42	tbaldridge	I've seen all of those cause problems like that.
14:42	noprompt	technically, i love those things just as much as anyone else here and no one would pick better errors over those things. otoh that's still not admitting that the error messages are still a problem to be solve and, furthermore, is worth solving.
14:43	csd_	dbasch: so then why does this return an error? (.start (re-matcher #".\[." "t[est"))
14:43	stompyj	noprompt: I’ll have to check out java errors again, i haven’t used it seriously since the late 90s
14:43	mdrogalis	noprompt: I dont think anyone disagrees that better errors would be nicer. But you're seeing reality play out in front of you. We value X, so we chase X, and we have limited time to do other things.
14:43	mdrogalis	You dont have to take a poll, you know? People are going to work on what they want.
14:44	stompyj	but the error messages were not good back then, better then clojure, but I couldn’t call them good
14:44	technomancy	mdrogalis: are you using "We" to mean the core team?
14:44	mdrogalis	technomancy: Nah, I just mean everyone in general.
14:44	stompyj	I think he means programmers in general
14:44	technomancy	mdrogalis: that implies we have a say in what happens
14:44	noprompt	mdrogalis: i would love to help work on improving the error messages situation but it's not something i can do in silence because a) i don't know java well and b) guidance would be helpful.
14:44	stompyj	#shotsfired
14:44	tbaldridge	noprompt: classic example, someone recently submitted a patch that improved an error message. Awesome! Except there was one problem, it blew the JVM inline budget and caused existing code to become slower. That one single line of code took a ton of work/testing to get right.
14:45	tbaldridge	I'm still not sure if it was worth it.
14:45	mdrogalis	technomancy: Ha! I was trying to keep it from getting dark. :)
14:45	mdrogalis	noprompt: Understandable.
14:45	TimMc	csd_: The fact that it returns an error doesn't have anything to do with how you're calling it.
14:46	dbasch	csd_: because you didn’t call find first
14:46	noprompt	i just don't understand the attitude. the mentality is bizarre.
14:46	csd_	dbasch: find returns a string though
14:46	noprompt	where's the humanity?
14:46	technomancy	noprompt: usability is simply not a priority; seems pretty straightforward.
14:47	dbasch	&(def a (re-matcher #".\[." "t[est"))
14:47	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! def is bad!
14:47	csd_	TimMc: I'm trying to emulate what's suggested in http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4194310/can-string-indexof-handle-a-regular-expression-as-a-parameter. Seems like what I'm doing should work
14:47	noprompt	tbaldridge: so does improving error messages, generally come at the expense of something else?
14:47	noprompt	technomancy: weird.
14:47	tbaldridge	noprompt: there are always tradeoffs in software
14:47	dbasch	&(let [a (re-matcher #".\[." "t[est")] (.find a) (.start a))
14:47	lazybot	⇒ 0
14:47	dbasch	^ csd_
14:48	csd_	dbasch: when you do that does the interop mutate a?
14:48	dbasch	csd_: yes, Matcher has state
14:48	stompyj	noprompt: lol @ where’s the humanity. You should try by writing proposed “better” error messages for errors you see
14:48	stompyj	and poll people, and see if they think they’re better
14:48	noprompt	tbaldridge: maybe i'm being naive but it seems odd error messages could be so hard to get right in the context of the other technical achievements made by clojure
14:49	mdrogalis	tbaldridge: You're a champ for always jumping in on this argument. :P
14:49	stompyj	there’s probably a “lean startup” way to understand this problem may be more difficult then it seems on the surface
14:49	technomancy	actually cataloging the biggest WTFs would be a good project
14:49	csd_	I see. I was under the impression that re-matcher would return a Matcher object so that you could directly apply .start to it
14:49	dbasch	csd_: “start: Returns the start index of the previous match.”
14:49	zerokarmaleft	technomancy: something like java/scala puzzlers, I'd dig it
14:49	technomancy	zerokarmaleft: actually I was thinking more of a "hall of shame"
14:50	technomancy	hey, it worked for getting Maven Central over to SSL
14:50	csd_	dbasch: thanks
14:50	gfredericks	technomancy: there'd be an interesting taxonomy for them
14:50	noprompt	stompyj: probably what i'm going to do is start cataloging these things with a description of what it generally means.
14:50	justin_smith	technomancy: we could call it ~@wat#
14:50	gfredericks	e.g., some things are confusing to n00bs but intentional and not too bothersome to experienced folkles
14:50	stompyj	noprompt: yeah, I think that sounds like a great first step
14:50	csd_	dbasch: do you know if a better way to get the index of where a RE match occurs using pure clojure?
14:50	gfredericks	such as clojure.core/contains?
14:51	stompyj	the art of error messaging feels like the art of describing by a chord by it’s notes
14:51	technomancy	gfredericks: http://blogs.msdn.com/blogfiles/cdndevs/WindowsLiveWriter/JohnUdellsinTorontoNextWeek_CC69/what_we_need_more_of_is_science_3.jpg
14:51	stompyj	seems liek if you ask x people, you’ll get x answers
14:51	stompyj	:)
14:52	tbaldridge	noprompt: yeah, that's a good place to start, take your pet error, figure out what the cause is, figure out how to improve it, then hand it off to someone to critique.
14:52	tbaldridge	You'll probably fine it either a) discards some data that could be useful to someone or b) has some other performance tradeoff
14:52	tbaldridge	at least that's been my experience, YMMV.
14:52	gfredericks	probably half of the error messages if you try to fix them you will 3 months later start screaming about rewriting the compiler
14:53	noprompt	tbaldridge: fair enough. i mean the whole reason i started hacking on this clojurescript tracing project is because it's damn near impossible sometime to understand why things are breaking because of horrible error messages both from clojurescrip and from javascript.
14:53	noprompt	you end up littering the planet with println.
14:53	noprompt	tbaldridge: guess i'll start with this one.
14:55	tbaldridge	noprompt: I will say that macro input validation is pretty ripe for optimization, no runtime cost, no JIT costs (that anyone cares about). That'd probably be a easy place to start
14:55	gfredericks	didn't chouser or someone have a sophisticated project to tackle that?
14:55	technomancy	gfredericks: yeah, that looked really promising
14:55	noprompt	tbaldridge: i know you are a busy guy but would you have any time during the week to help get me started, guide me?
14:56	technomancy	gfredericks: nice to see someone putting some deep thought into the problem
14:56	noprompt	tbaldridge: not to put you on the spot. :P
14:56	tbaldridge	noprompt: no, I never help people, now get off my lawn. :-P
14:56	noprompt	;_;
14:56	arohner	has anyone ever seen weirdness from emacs/nrepl where emacs locks up while typing? I type C-f or C-a, and emacs is just out to lunch until I C-g
14:56	gfredericks	tbaldridge helped me once he's a damn liar
14:57	tbaldridge	noprompt: sure, you can email me or ping me here.
14:57	justin_smith	someone should make a schema/input validator to run as a language middleware, and call it a nanny-state-machine
14:57	tbaldridge	noprompt: email may be easier due to my work schedule.
14:57	justin_smith	arohner: I have seen things like that with autocomplete of various types turned on
14:58	arohner	justin_smith: weird part is, it didn't do this yesterday in a different project, and I don't remember changing anything recently
14:58	justin_smith	arohner: is it a projectless repl?
14:58	arohner	no
14:58	arohner	cider-connect repl
14:58	arohner	into a 'normal' project
14:59	justin_smith	arohner: you could try turning off completion and see if the behavior improves - could be something about one of your namespaces or deps triggers a bug
15:00	technomancy	arohner: using autocomplete.el?
15:00	arohner	technomancy: I don't think so
15:00	arohner	and it appears restarting emacs has fixed the problem
15:01	technomancy	gotcha. it seems to be pretty buggy, and a large percentage of cider/nrepl problems can often be solved by just getting rid of it.
15:01	arohner	aha. C-f is fine, as long as nrepl isn't eval'ing long running code
15:01	llasram	Ah
15:01	arohner	but large numbers of text input stuff hangs during a long C-c C-k
15:01	arohner	even Tab
15:02	noprompt	tbaldridge: thanks. email you @ cognitect?
15:02	noprompt	scratch that i'll simply message you
15:02	tbaldridge	noprompt: sure
15:03	Bronsa	tbaldridge: did you see http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/ASYNC-86 ?
15:07	SagiCZ1	can i supply (min) with my own comparator? or better yet how do i implement min to compare only certain keys of elements? using reduce?
15:08	llasram	SagiCZ1: It only works on numbers, but various utility libraries have Comparator-based versions
15:08	SagiCZ1	llasram: ok rather than using library, i would like to implement it myself
15:09	SagiCZ1	but idk how
15:09	llasram	SagiCZ1: Well, look at `min-key` and `compare`, and mix :-)
15:10	SagiCZ1	ty
15:10	doctorm	Anyone using vim-fireplace able to get stack traces? I’ve tried :lopen after a failed evaluation, but it gives me “No location list”
15:12	SagiCZ1	llasram: min-key is enough for me since the key i want to compare is number already
15:12	SagiCZ1	(inc llasram)
15:12	lazybot	⇒ 37
15:13	mping	why can't I map over a lazy seq? I must be doing something wrong
15:13	justin_smith	mping: you can, you just have to access the result, or else the mapping never happens
15:13	justin_smith	that's what laziness means
15:14	mping	is there a way to force it?
15:14	mping	even this does not work: (map #(println ">>>" %) all-paths)
15:14	justin_smith	yes - do you need all the results, or do you just need the action in the map to occur for side effects?
15:14	mping	well, can you tell me both ways? so I can learn?
15:14	mping	this is in the context of a test
15:15	justin_smith	to get all the results, wrap it in doall or use mapv, to just force the action wrap it in dorun or just use doseq
15:16	mping	it works, tks
15:17	mping	I expected the test to "unwrap" the lazy seq
15:20	SagiCZ1	i've watched a video about quick-test last night.. i dont understand how can i let the test know which results are correct and which are not.. since it throws 100 000 random tests.. ?
15:20	AeroNotix	SagiCZ1: you're thinking of it wrong
15:20	AeroNotix	you describe the properties of what your function takes
15:20	AeroNotix	and then it generates values which satisfy that property
15:20	AeroNotix	so if your function takes even values betwen 0 and eleventy million, you describe that property and then it passes them to your function
15:21	stompyj	SagiCZ1: if you’re familiar with mathematical equations
15:21	SagiCZ1	AeroNotix: lets say my function takes a definiton of a 2 squares and returns boolean iff they intersect.. what properties would i define for my test then?
15:21	stompyj	where f(x) can take any “real number” as input and can output only “negative real numbers”
15:22	SagiCZ1	stompyj: oh math.. thats where the "forall" notation came from
15:22	stompyj	then you’d specify that your input are real numbers, and your output should be negative real numbers
15:22	melipone	hello! Any idea how I can capture a url that has a semi-colon in a line that is delimited by semi-colons itself? Here's an example: http://buddhayana.ru/2AB@5G8-A-@>A25B;5=85<-8AB>@88-87-687=8-1C44K.html";1;"db_unfetched";Tue Sep 02 14:46:47 EDT 2014;Wed Dec 31 19:00:00 EST 1969;0;2592000.0;30.0;0.01;"null"
15:22	stompyj	and quick-test makes sure those properties are satisfied
15:22	stompyj	if I understand it correctly
15:22	SagiCZ1	stompyj: that does not sound very useful in my case
15:23	SagiCZ1	ok.. so i define ranges for which it should return some defined ouput..
15:23	stompyj	SagiCZ1: I’m sure there’s people here who understand it much better then myself who could help you, but that’s how I understood it when I checked it out
15:24	mahmoudmheisen91	then you’d specify that your input are real numbers, and your output should be negative real numbers
15:25	mahmoudmheisen91	quit
15:25	SagiCZ1	what just hapenned? did he rage quit?
15:26	stompyj	LOL
15:26	stompyj	I’m dying to see what a test suite using quick-check + simulation testing would look like
15:27	SagiCZ1	i cant imagine how could it test more corner cases than traditional unit testing
15:28	stompyj	SagiCZ1: I think unit testing is great for when you know what you want to test
15:28	stompyj	but often times the errors happen on cases that you’re not thinking about
15:28	SagiCZ1	if you dont know what to test, you can hardly define properties for whole ranges of input..
15:28	stompyj	or composition of events that you didn’t expect
15:28	SagiCZ1	event composition sounds useful..
15:30	stompyj	I dont’ prefer TDD, but I do appreciate tests, esp. when refactoring
15:30	SagiCZ1	who doesnt..
15:30	SagiCZ1	im workin
15:30	SagiCZ1	on large scale Java EE app at work
15:31	SagiCZ1	we just started writing test.. 2 months into development
15:31	SagiCZ1	very painful
15:32	stompyj	ooff
15:32	stompyj	brutal
15:32	stompyj	is that stuff mostly EJB’s still?
15:32	stompyj	or something different?
15:32	SagiCZ1	no beans.. no spring.. its vaadin and our own data model
15:42	mping	SagiCZ1: ouch
15:54	mi6x3m	any way to get the require mappings of a NS?
15:54	justin_smith	mi6x3m: ns-imports or ns-aliases
15:55	mi6x3m	justin_smith: aliases only returns what you have really aliased
15:56	justin_smith	so if you require without an :as it doesn't show up>
15:56	mi6x3m	yes
15:57	bbloom	mi6x3m: require is a side effect that just loads the namespace, alias (the :as keyword) is a side effect that modifies the current ns aliases table
15:57	mi6x3m	bbloom: so it's not kept in the books once the ns is constructed?
15:59	justin_smith	I guess that's another reason to always use :as
16:03	mi6x3m	justin_smith: you are actually right
16:03	mi6x3m	easier to always use :as, especially in my case
16:03	mi6x3m	(building source code for code demos)
16:12	TimMc	mi6x3m: There's also no guarantee that a :require form will be present when another namespace is used.
16:13	mi6x3m	TimMc: I am aware, this is just an internal contract so the demo framework works ok :)
16:13	TimMc	A great example is clojure.string. A bunch of namespaces use it, so occaasionally someone will write clojure.string/join and forget to :require it -- but it still works, because it has been loaded transitively. :-)
16:16	justin_smith	TimMc: or clojure.pprint - you don't need to require it in the repl, because the repl loads it at some point, but it can break in your deployed code
16:16	justin_smith	(if you forget to require it)
16:21	atyz	I'm trying to use an input stream twice, and I have found several ways to copy it to a bytearrayoutputstream using some java interop but is tehre a "clojure" way to do it?
16:39	amalloy	hugod: every time i run a benchmark with criterium, i see "WARNING: Final GC required 2.824425435800379 % of runtime" (obviously the percentages differ). am i doing something unusual that this warning comes up every time? or if it's not unusual, why is there a warning at all?
16:52	dbasch	amalloy: he shows a warning when the final gc takes more than 1% of the total running time, which is pretty much always for any meaningful benchmark I run
16:53	amalloy	right. so if it's totally normal, it shouldn't be a warning
16:53	dbasch	I agree, it should be more of an INFO
16:54	amalloy	"INFO: everything normal" is silly too. it should be quiet unless it's an unusual amount of time
17:03	martinklepsch	do transducers also take from channels or is that required to be done elsewhere?
17:04	hiredman	a transducer is a transformation of a reducing fuction there is nothing about channels in them
17:05	hiredman	(so no)
17:08	martinklepsch	hiredman: are you aware of any more writeups combining core.async & transducers?
17:08	hiredman	martinklepsch: no
17:09	stompyj	martinklepsch: there are about 4-5 of them now
17:10	hiredman	I suspect the tricky areas of combining transducers and core.async are the same as the tricky areas of core.async, namely not blocking in a go block, closing channels when done, and reporting errors
17:11	hiredman	I think core.async is light on documentation on how it applys transducer transforms to things passing through a channel, which can make it difficult to figure out if some operation will end up getting run in a go block or not, which is what you need to know in order to avoid blocking ops in a go block
17:12	hiredman	but pulling up the code should answer those lingering questions pretty quick
17:13	martinklepsch	I had some rough idea about using transducers for something where map< seemed appropriate: https://gist.github.com/mklappstuhl/d6d776317171e01f1178 — maybe someone sees an obvious flaw?
17:17	hiredman	it is hard to know where to start
17:17	hiredman	io is generally a blocking operation so it shouldn't be done in a go block, you should use thread or future or have your own threadpool blocking ops run on
17:17	hiredman	upload-files pretty obsiouly does io
17:17	hiredman	obviously
17:17	martinklepsch	hiredman: it's cljs
17:18	martinklepsch	sorry for the wrongly named gist,
17:19	hiredman	you are also using upload-files before it is defed
17:21	mi6x3m	any way to use pprint to produce a string?
17:21	mi6x3m	(sane way that is)
17:21	justin_smith	(with-out-str (pprint ...))
17:21	dagda1	Is there a way to tell if a var is a list, I don't mean vec?, list? or seq? but just a generic away that would be true for [1 2 3] '(1 2 3) etc
17:22	amalloy	sequential?
17:22	justin_smith	dagda1: coll?
17:22	martinklepsch	hiredman: upload-files returns immediately and takes callback — that's where I planned to put the result in result-chan
17:22	dagda1	justin_smith: nice one
17:22	martinklepsch	hiredman: that's what I've seen in some cljs ajax core.async examples
17:23	amalloy	coll? is unlikely to be what you want, because it returns true for maps
17:23	amalloy	(which is why i said sequential?)
17:27	hiredman	martinklepsch: sure, but you are still using it before it is defined, which is not valid and I am surprised nothing is throwing an error about it
17:29	hiredman	martinklepsch: the xform function you pass to (chan ...) when creating a channel is a transformation of values flowing through the channel, the transform won't happen unless values are flowing through
17:29	hiredman	they won't flow through unless soming is produce values for the channel and something is consuming those values
17:29	hugod	amalloy: the question is how to define unusual
17:30	hiredman	something
17:30	amalloy	martinklepsch: what is the deal with these definitions like (def foo (comp f)). that is just (def foo f)
17:31	martinklepsch	amalloy: I wrote them earlier when they did multiple things
17:31	mdeboard	that bitrot tho
17:31	hiredman	martinklepsch: you are not consuming values from some channels
17:31	tadni_	https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1751759988/sicp-distilled?ref=discovery
17:32	martinklepsch	hiredman: right
17:32	amalloy	hugod: sure. it seems to me that the bar for "unusual" is currently too low, because that warning is present in every criterium run i've ever seen
17:32	tadni_	So this says it's going to rewrite the examples of SICP in Clj, I wonder if that means they will distribute a virtual book.
17:32	hiredman	martinklepsch: so nothing happens
17:34	mi6x3m	is clojure automatically importing all of java.lang
17:34	tadni_	http://sicpinclojure.com/ Sadly has had very little progress.
17:34	mi6x3m	well, most of it anyhow
17:35	amalloy	mi6x3m: yes, just like java does
17:36	mi6x3m	amalloy: thank you
17:47	martinklepsch	hiredman: thanks a lot. I wasn't really aware things had to enter & leave the channel before the transducer is applied. I think I'm a lot closer to what I wanted to do now than before :)
17:49	amalloy	dakrone: it looks to me like cheshire uses jackson's lexer, but does its own parsing. is that accurate?
17:50	ztellman	amalloy: that's correct
17:55	sdegutis	What might cause a Clojure-Ring/Jetty website to just stop responding entirely and need to be kill9'd?
18:04	justin_smith	sdegutis: next time use jstack, that will tell you what all the threads are doing / where they are stopped
18:04	sdegutis	Thanks.
18:06	justin_smith	I don't know how much good we can do inventing scenarious that may bring a jetty server to a standstill. deadlock somewhere? trying to use some resource that was erroneously deleted or went inconsistent?
18:07	xeqi	fork bomb, cosmic rays
18:07	sdegutis	I have the simplest web app, a very simple shopping cart. The most complex part of it is that it sometimes talks to Datomic over TCP on another server.
18:07	danielcompton	sdegutis: could be hax0rs
18:08	sdegutis	I can't imagine this being caused by anything other than trying to communicate with the Datomic server and hanging.
18:08	sdegutis	The entire process becomes unresponsive and is spending 99% of the CPU.
18:08	justin_smith	yeah, then your best bet is to use jstack (or a full on profiler), and finding out what is looping so crazy
18:10	amalloy	sdegutis: whenever my web servers crawl into a hole, it turns out to be because it's stuck in a gc loop because i had a memory leak somewhere
18:10	sdegutis	Ahh, that could very likely be it!
18:11	sdegutis	amalloy: Does that go on for hours and hours?
18:11	amalloy	yeah. i don't totally understand why
18:11	sdegutis	amalloy: Thanks a ton :)
18:11	justin_smith	finalizers that use too much memory?
18:11	sdegutis	justin_smith: Thanks for the suggestion.
18:11	justin_smith	np
18:11	sdegutis	My site is written in Clojure, fwiw. But it is using a very old version of Datomic Free.
18:11	sdegutis	So there may have been bugs in it that have since been fixed.
18:12	sdegutis	I will take all this into consideration. Thank you.
18:12	hyPiRion	amalloy: is that a similar reason to why lazybot eats a CPU when it disconnects from an IRC server?
18:12	amalloy	justin_smith: my vague understanding is that it's more like "(1) needed to allocate 20 bytes, but the 10GB heap is full; (2) long GC, freeing up 5kb. (3) GOTO 1"
18:13	justin_smith	ahh
18:13	justin_smith	so not enough usage to crash the whole thing, but enough to make gc consume hella cpu
18:13	amalloy	hyPiRion: i dunno. i haven't put much effort into that one. i'd guess there's just something dumb in lazybot's irc retry code
18:13	hyPiRion	amalloy: yeah, that sounds like something completely different when you put it that way
18:14	ticking_	Hey it seems that record fields can be accessed through (:field self) (.field self) and field. Any thoughts on what's most idiomatic?
18:14	Bronsa	field
18:16	sdegutis	amalloy: LOL that's a funny loop :)
18:16	ticking_	Bronsa: thanks :)
18:17	danielcompton	Bronsa: is that only from within the record? Or is it also a function on a record?
18:18	Bronsa	danielcompton: only methods/protocol-functions defined inside the deftype/defrecord have access to those locals
18:18	Bronsa	if that's what you're asking
18:18	Bronsa	I didn't fully understand the question
18:18	danielcompton	Bronsa: so outside of the record you would use .field or :field?
18:18	Bronsa	yeah definitely
18:20	Bronsa	I mean, I don't understand how you'd expect a regular fn to figure out if a local should be a field access on some instance otherwise
18:20	danielcompton	Bronsa: neither
18:21	justin_smith	technomancy: regarding the conversation earlier, it's OSHA's job to make sure nobody's boss lets them do this on the work site: http://i.imgur.com/sQnrHFc.jpg
18:21	technomancy	heh, wow
18:21	amalloy	Bronsa: reminds me of http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9345056/in-clojure-how-to-destructure-all-the-keys-of-a-map
18:22	danielcompton	Is he also over powerlines?
18:23	justin_smith	danielcompton: hard to tell from the perspective, but looks like it
18:23	justin_smith	if you follow the fence, and see the pole's position relative to that.. yeah I think so
18:27	TimMc	justin_smith: Grabbed from https://pay.reddit.com/r/MenonUnstableLadders/ ?
18:27	justin_smith	no, but I like that this exists
18:28	TimMc	I like how it is specifically men.
18:28	technomancy	justin_smith: hey, if they can have one just for bezels...
18:28	TimMc	and of course https://pay.reddit.com/r/OSHA
18:29	justin_smith	TimMc: if you found a woman on an unstable ladder, I think you would need to start a new subreddit just for that
18:29	Bronsa	amalloy: ew the last answer
18:29	TimMc	Good luck, they're much less likely to get testosterone poisoning. :-P
18:29	amalloy	TimMc: are you linking to pay.reddit.com as a side effect of usine https everywhere, or what?
18:29	TimMc	amalloy: Yeah.
18:29	technomancy	justin_smith: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2014/06/27/herstory
18:29	technomancy	and http://www.reddit.com/r/bezels
18:29	TimMc	It's not, like... a subliminal message or anything.
18:30	Bronsa	eval is the worst function ever to make part of a core library
18:31	justin_smith	technomancy: well, 45° cuts on edges are really important after all
19:04	gfredericks	take et al return a "stateful transducer" on one arg
19:06	gfredericks	at least one function returns a stateful transducer but neglects to say so in the docstring
19:15	bounb	,((fn [x] (if (= x 1) 1) (if (= x 2) 2)) 1)
19:15	clojurebot	nil
19:15	bounb	,((fn [x] (if (= x 1) 1) (if (= x 2) 2)) 2)
19:15	clojurebot	2
19:15	bounb	can someone explain these results please
19:17	amalloy	there's no such thing as early return in clojure
19:19	bounb	is the order of the evaluation of the ifs defined?
19:19	technomancy	bounb: what exactly did you expect?
19:19	bounb	i expected the first one to return 1 and the second 2
19:20	bounb	i can understand the result if the second if form is evaluated first (+ no early return)
19:20	bounb	i guess that's it isn't it
19:20	hiredman	why do you need both?
19:20	hiredman	(second evaluated first and no early return)
19:20	technomancy	bounb: expressions in the non-tail position are discarded
19:21	bounb	hiredman: uh yes
19:21	bounb	i agree
19:21	bounb	alright nothing to see here folks. cheers
19:22	technomancy	yeah, the only reason fn takes multiple body args is for side-effects
19:22	justin_smith	bounb: it might help to know that fn has an implicit do block - each form in the body is evaluated, in order, and there is nothing like a "return statement" available for fn
19:22	bounb	good point. thx
19:23	justin_smith	,((fn [] 1 2 3 4 5))
19:23	clojurebot	5
19:23	technomancy	((eval (apply #'fn (concat nil nil [] 1 2 3 4 5))))
19:23	technomancy	oops
20:25	sdfgsdf	What editor do you people use for clojure?
20:26	jtackett	light table
20:26	danielcompton	sdfgsdf: emacs
20:26	danielcompton	although Cursive is on my list
20:26	sdfgsdf	never heard of cursive, will check it out
20:26	xeqi	emacs, but I've dabbled with cursive and its pretty good
20:27	amalloy	sdfgsdf: cursive is the intellij plugin or something
20:28	technomancy	the proprietary one
20:28	splunk	anyone know a good synonym for "get" for use in my own protocol?
20:28	amalloy	call it ----get-protocol---internal-for-real
20:28	danielcompton	technomancy: aka the maintained one
20:29	splunk	amalloy: ship itttt!!!
20:29	xeqi	acquire, obtain, grab
20:30	sdfgsdf	What is your protocol and what does get mean in it?
20:30	splunk	it's like s3
20:30	splunk	(defrecord S3Storage [cred] StorageProtocol (get [this k] ...))
20:31	splunk	but you can't use get with a defrecord because defrecords are already associative, i.e. normal clojure.core/get
20:31	splunk	It means to like, lookup / download, more than lock or reserve
20:32	justin_smith	copy? download?
20:32	ephemeron	Why not a traditional "fetch"?
20:32	amalloy	splunk: so make it a deftype instead of a defrecord? i can't imagine it's important to be able to treat it like a map, with only the one key
20:32	splunk	amalloy: I'm trying to copy the stuart sierra component workflow, which appears to advocate `assoc`ing stuff into a defrecord?
20:32	Jaood	"here-boy-catch"
20:32	splunk	ephemeron: that's a great candidate thanks
20:33	sdfgsdf	"acquire-the-thing-that-you-want-to-have"
20:33	joobus	has anyone here worked through clojure-koans?
20:33	technomancy	do you really need protocols for a function that's guaranteed to be I/O bound?
20:33	sdfgsdf	joobus I am in the process of doing that now
20:33	splunk	technomancy: just trying to make an abstraction over "get a thing out of storage"
20:33	joobus	what lesson are you on?
20:33	sdfgsdf	just finished 14
20:34	joobus	i'm on 13, and the answers aren't obvious to me. do you have any recommendations for reading/researching recursion?
20:34	splunk	technomancy: guess that could be done without protocols / records, though again with the `component` workflow it seems like a decent fit
20:36	sdfgsdf	Well it was already kind of intuitive to me, probably from earlier non-clojure lisp stuff.
20:36	sdfgsdf	Can you be more specific about what part of it you are having trouble with?
20:36	Jaood	john2x: the little schemer
20:36	Jaood	err joobus ^^
20:36	technomancy	splunk: I guess if you have component then you work around all the crazy reloading issues around records, but do you know for sure all the consumers of your lib will have it too?
20:37	technomancy	splunk: also: introducing semantically-useless arguments to your arglists simply for dispatch purposes is super annoying.
20:38	splunk	technomancy: haha, isn't that a critique of protocols in general?
20:38	technomancy	splunk: yes
20:38	sdfgsdf	joobus, are you having trouble with the first question or do your problems start later on?
20:39	technomancy	splunk: they're super useful for implementing clojure-in-clojure, which is the reason they were added to the language. in application-level code: not so much.
20:39	joobus	sdfgsdf: first, this is my first lisp. i peeked at the answer for the first one, and after seeing it, it made sense, but that's not how i want to solve the rest.
20:39	splunk	technomancy: as far as I can tell, the primary alternative to `(fetch my-s3-record my-key)` is `(my-s3-fetching-closure my-key)`, which I've totally done before, but got the impressions readers don't like it
20:40	amalloy	splunk: technomancy's fortune cookies all contain critiques of protocols in general
20:40	xeqi	technomancy: I've been playing with them as reified namespaces, do you have a different alternative for that?
20:40	technomancy	xeqi: actual reified namespaces? those would be great =D
20:40	splunk	amalloy: lolz
20:40	joobus	for the blanks at the top, there are maybe 3 underscores. i'm not sure how long the functions should be, or if they are elegantly simple.
20:40	xeqi	technomancy: dreamz
20:41	xeqi	though I'd imagine that would have a similar argument for dispatch
20:41	joobus	i guess i just need to spend more time on them
20:41	sdfgsdf	Do you understand how loop and recur work, joobus?
20:41	joobus	no, not yet. i guess that's the place to start.
20:42	sdfgsdf	Yes
20:47	sdfgsdf	Here are some examples of loop and recur:
20:47	sdfgsdf	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/recur
20:47	sdfgsdf	you still here joobus?
20:48	joobus	yes
20:48	joobus	looking through loop and recur docs right now
20:49	sdfgsdf	It's something I find that's easier to understand through examples than through an explanation of what it does
20:50	sdfgsdf	But in case the latter would help anyhow, it rebinds the variables in the loop to the values you give it in the recur
20:51	sdfgsdf	Basically you use recur wherever you would otherwise have a function call itself if you're doing the thing without loop and recur
20:52	sdfgsdf	With loop and recur it's evaluated differently so you don't get a stack overflow but it's pretty similar to how recursive functions work
20:53	joobus	so if i have 2 loop bindings, then if the recur has 2 arguments in the list, it will rebind the loop bindings in the order they were declared?
20:53	gfredericks	just like a function call
20:53	sdfgsdf	yes
20:55	splunk	amalloy: I take it you disagree re: protocols, e.g. I see a few of them in `useful`?
20:56	amalloy	i don't think they're toxic waste like technomancy does. it's easy to overuse them
20:57	joobus	i was curious about the answer to the first func in 13, is-even?... is that the quickest way to determine even and odd, or is this just an example? is decrementing from 1000 and alternating true/false the "clojure" way?
20:57	splunk	with the takeaway being "do dispatch using a different mechanism" (like multimethods) or "do less fancy dispatch"?
20:57	amalloy	of the three protocols in useful, i regard only one (Adjoin) as a reasonable idea
20:57	sdfgsdf	Notice that in the clojure koans you have the factorial function called with large arguments. This demonstrates the utility of loop and recur; if you did it without loop and recur you would get a stack overflow from all the nested functions.
20:58	sdfgsdf	The is-even function is a pretty contrived example
20:58	joobus	ok
20:59	gfredericks	,(source even?)
20:59	clojurebot	Source not found\n
21:00	amalloy	~def even?
21:01	bbloom	clojurebot: even? \|is\| do you even even?
21:01	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
21:01	gfredericks	,(defn steven? [x] (contains? #{"steven" :steven 'steven} x))
21:01	clojurebot	#'sandbox/steven?
21:01	gfredericks	bbloom: I'm not sure those question marks are workable
21:02	gfredericks	,(steven? "steven")
21:02	clojurebot	true
21:02	bbloom	~even
21:02	clojurebot	Huh?
21:02	bbloom	clojurebot: even \|is\| do you even even?
21:02	clojurebot	I don't understand.
21:02	bbloom	shrug gfredericks oh well
21:03	amalloy	bbloom: clojurebot is allergic to question marks in factoids
21:03	bbloom	amalloy: does he break out in hives?
21:03	gfredericks	clojure hives
21:03	amalloy	what would live in a clojure hive? a swarm of )}] all buzzing around?
21:04	amalloy	they look like they could fly for sure
21:04	gfredericks	contest: a readable string that looks like an insect
21:04	gfredericks	or at least like it can fly
21:06	gfredericks	no trivial use of line comments
21:06	gfredericks	or string literals
21:10	joobus	i've seen the variable acc used a few places. is this short for accumulator?
21:10	gfredericks	yeah
21:10	joobus	k
21:10	amalloy	i use it for accidents
21:11	gfredericks	accursed
21:11	amalloy	sometimes i see someone reducing and they claim it's accumulating data but i swear it looks like it's just accreting
21:11	gfredericks	accouterments
21:11	gfredericks	accordion
21:11	joobus	accelerando?
21:12	amalloy	gfredericks: accouterments is a misspelling that made me laugh
21:12	gfredericks	it's in my words file
21:12	gfredericks	wait
21:12	amalloy	did you put it there some time ago as a self-prank?
21:12	gfredericks	you're referring to re <=> er?
21:13	amalloy	yes
21:13	gfredericks	google says this is correct but only for plural
21:13	gfredericks	wiktionary has both with er
21:14	gfredericks	and another entry for both re
21:14	gfredericks	I wonder if google is confused.
21:14	amalloy	http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/accoutrement has both RE
21:14	amalloy	i trust MW over wiktionary or google, when it comes to defining words
21:14	gfredericks	my word file has both
21:15	gfredericks	amalloy: MW lists it as a variant
21:15	gfredericks	so I assume you owe me $50.
21:15	gfredericks	whoops hey wanna bet $50 on this
21:16	amalloy	"variant" is a euphemism for "hillbilly slang"
21:16	gfredericks	"hillbilly slang" is a dysphemism for "variant"
21:19	TimMc	gfredericks: My entry for the contest: ##(read-string "🐝")
21:19	lazybot	⇒ 🐝
21:21	TimMc	U+1F41D HONEYBEE
21:23	gfredericks	okay you've successfully dismantled the contest
21:23	TimMc	That means I win!
21:24	catern	BEEEEEEEEEEEEES
21:28	sdegutis	gfredericks: it shows up right for me
21:29	gfredericks	somewhere in between my emacs->tmux->ssh->gnome-terminal
21:29	sdegutis	oh
21:29	gfredericks	the bee support is lacking
21:29	sdegutis	welp.
21:30	TimMc	It doesn't show up for me either. :-)
21:31	sdegutis	Shows up for me, using just LimeChat.
21:31	xeqi	gfredericks: I'm gonna blame gnome-terminal as thats what we have in common and it doesn't show up for me
21:31	sdegutis	Oh wait, you mean in CLojure.
21:31	sdegutis	Yeah, it shows up in Terminal.app using `lein repl`.
21:31	sdegutis	Doesn't work in Hammerterm though.
21:33	gfredericks	no I mean my irc client
21:33	gfredericks	xeqi: could it also be the font? I think I have inconsolata
21:34	catern	sdegutis: is.. this.. a port of st to OS X? seriously? gross. suckless would be ashamed
21:34	sdegutis	They are.
21:34	sdegutis	I told them.
21:34	xeqi	gfredericks: maybe, I can't remember if I have inconsolata or terminus
21:34	sdegutis	On the other hand, they made my job porting it needlessly hard by sloppily using globals.
21:34	blaenk	is there an accepted way of detecting whether the app is in dev mode or production, etc?
21:34	sdegutis	So we're even.
21:35	sdegutis	haha https://www.dropbox.com/s/9sc05upwygvdpnx/Screenshot%202014-09-02%2020.34.22.png?dl=0
21:35	xeqi	apparently inconsolata. so yeah, probably that
21:35	sdegutis	Hammerterm totally fails at Unicode.
21:35	sdegutis	catern: Also, X is something to be ashamed of.
21:36	sdegutis	Okay maybe that's a bit harsh.
21:36	blaenk	also anyone know of a good ring logger?
21:37	xeqi	(fn [f] (fn [req] (log/log (... req)) (let [res (f req)] (log/log (... res)) res))
21:38	sdegutis	Is log4j the best solution for logging in Clojure?
21:38	sdegutis	Or maybe Lumberjack?
21:38	boyscared	hello. how do i use cider-inspect to actually inspect stuff?
21:38	boyscared	can't find any documentation on the feature
21:39	xeqi	sdegutis: tools.logging?
21:39	sdegutis	Ah.
21:40	xeqi	no idea if thats "best", but probably where I'd start
21:40	blaenk	all it does is delegate to an actual logging implementation
21:41	technomancy	wait, is this a terminal named after Captain Hammer from Doctor Horrible's Sing-Along Blog?
21:42	sdegutis	Sure why not.
21:42	technomancy	http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080731175820/drhorrible/images/5/50/Captain_Hammer.jpg not a bad mascot, eh?
21:43	blaenk	thats the guy from firefly too
21:45	xeqi	I think at this point he's the guy from castle
21:45	sdegutis	ha
21:46	sdegutis	I have no idea how Habbie came up with the name Hammerterm.
21:46	xeqi	from hammerpants ?
21:46	sdegutis	but anyway, http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/980226/hammertime-o.gif
21:47	sdegutis	catern: how did you deduce so quickly that it was from st?
21:47	gfredericks	there's a link in the repo description
21:49	sdegutis	Oh.
21:49	sdegutis	But how did you find the repo?
21:49	sdegutis	I didn't post one.
21:50	xeqi	$google sdegutis hammerterm
21:50	lazybot	[sdegutis/hammerterm · GitHub] https://github.com/sdegutis/hammerterm
21:50	sdegutis	wow thats fast
21:50	sdegutis	they rejected my changes to extract the terminal emulation stuff away from the X stuff
21:50	sdegutis	oh well
21:50	justin_smith	,((((((((((((((((((fn f [] f))))))))))))))))))
21:50	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval25$f__26 sandbox$eval25$f__26@1fcb359>
21:51	technomancy	abstraction ain't free
21:51	Bronsa	,(reify clojure.lang.IDeref (deref [this] this]))
21:51	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: ]>
21:51	Bronsa	,(reify clojure.lang.IDeref (deref [this] this))
21:51	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval73$reify__74@189bd81: #<sandbox$eval73$reify__74@189bd81: #<sandbox$eval73$reify__74@189bd81: #<sandbox$eval73$reify__74@189bd81: #<sandbox$eval73$reify__74@189bd81: #<sandbox$eval73$reify__74@189bd81: #<sandbox$eval73$reify__74@189bd81: #<sandbox$eval73$reify__74@189bd81: #<sandbox$eval73$reify__74@189bd81: #<sandbox$eval73$reify__74@189bd81: #>>>>>>>>>>
21:52	justin_smith	Bronsa: nice
21:53	sdegutis	look, you...
21:55	bounb	haha :)
21:55	justin_smith	is there a name in the lambda calculus for (fn f [] f) ? (the function of no args that returns itself)
21:56	sdegutis	technomancy: So are you in California now. Thanks in advance, ragards?
21:58	Bronsa	justin_smith: I don't think functions can refer to themselves in lambda calculus
21:58	justin_smith	OK
21:59	technomancy	sdegutis: I, um, yes?
22:01	sdegutis	Good I may ship my Atreus to you as a thank-you gift :)
22:01	sdegutis	I think you'll like it, it's got birch-wood etc.
22:02	technomancy	cool, I'll patch it right up then and you'll be right as rain
22:02	sdegutis	<3
22:05	lavokad__	guys, i now have a .clj file in one window, and repl(cider) in the other. When I do C-x C-e, the expression's evaluation result apears above my editing file. How do u make results apear in the repl window?
22:15	justin_smith	lavokad__: I like to keep a trail of what I evaluate in the repl, and for that to work I switch the repl to the namespace I am working on, and enter code into the repl
22:16	justin_smith	it is easy to select and copy whole defs at a time
22:16	joobus	is loop always used to make recursive calls?
22:17	justin_smith	joobus: that's what loop is for, yeah, but if you were feeling dumb you could never call recur and use it as if it were let
22:17	justin_smith	which, to reiterate, would work, but would be dumb
22:18	joobus	ok, but one doesn't necessarily need to call 'recur' specifically. one could also call the function containing the loop in the loop?
22:19	justin_smith	you don't need loop for that
22:19	justin_smith	you can call the function, or even call recur, without a loop
22:19	justin_smith	loop is for when you want a block that can recur
22:20	joobus	ok, thanks
22:20	justin_smith	,((fn f [x] (if (> x 100) x (recur (+ x x)))) 10)
22:20	clojurebot	160
22:20	justin_smith	example of recur without loop ^
22:20	joobus	i'm looking at the recursive-reverse function here: https://github.com/tomshen/clojure-koans/blob/master/src/koans/13_recursion.clj
22:21	joobus	and here: https://github.com/viebel/clojure-koans/blob/master/src/koans/recursion.clj
22:21	justin_smith	yes, one is tail recursive, the other is not
22:24	amalloy	justin_smith: loop without recur: a poor man's let
22:24	amalloy	could totally avoid needing let* for bootstrapping!
22:24	justin_smith	lol
22:24	justin_smith	you could totally replace both with fn immediately followed by args :P
22:25	sdegutis	Hello.
22:25	sdegutis	Does anyone know what project this is referring to. https://twitter.com/technomancy/status/506146365941219329
22:25	sdegutis	Thanks in advance. Regards.
22:25	justin_smith	sdegutis: it was atreus, I checked when I first saw it
22:26	sdegutis	Do you have the link.
22:26	justin_smith	(when I saw the tweet that is)
22:26	justin_smith	nope, not handy
22:26	sdegutis	Looks like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8247803
22:26	justin_smith	yeah. that looks right
22:27	sdegutis	Reminds me of when my project was on HN for a little bit. After that, I posted a link to the HN thread in my project's FAQ under the question "Where can I find a comprehensive list of alternatives to your app?"
22:28	justin_smith	nice
22:28	sdegutis	Same here.
22:28	sdegutis	But I guess there's not much else to talk about in HN threads besides alternatives to the topic?
22:29	sdegutis	bbl adding gui buttons
22:29	cataska	Hi, what "profiles" means in cljsbuild ?
22:30	blaenk	think of it like ruby environment configuration
22:31	cataska	I know nothing about ruby
22:32	mdeboard	me either!
22:32	joobus	me either!
22:32	sdegutis	I do.
22:32	sdegutis	Okay so it goes like this:
22:33	sdegutis	You've got an "environment configuration".
22:33	sdegutis	It's basically like Leiningen profiles.
22:33	sdegutis	And you can configure your environment.
22:33	sdegutis	You can use Gemfiles and Bundler for this.
22:34	sdegutis	Specify a "group" of :test or :development in your Gemfile.
22:34	sdegutis	That's not how it works in Leiningen though.
22:34	sdegutis	Anyway, it's handy.
22:37	lavokad__	why I see 4clojure package in the web http://melpa.milkbox.net/#/ using chrome, but when doing M-x package-install, it is not there..
22:37	cataska	How "profiles" triggerred when type "lein xxx" ?
22:37	sdegutis	Thanks in advance.
22:55	danielcompton	lavokad__: is melpa one of the packages in your emacs config?
22:56	danielcompton	package repositories that is
22:56	lavokad__	danielcompton: yes, i tried with both stable and the other
22:56	lavokad__	it is so weird
22:57	lavokad__	I see bunch of other but not 4clojure
22:58	xeqi	$google leiningen profiles
22:58	lazybot	[leiningen/PROFILES.md at master · technomancy/leiningen · GitHub] https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/doc/PROFILES.md
22:58	xeqi	^ cataska
22:59	lavokad__	i did manually and its ok
23:00	lavokad__	but why the hell can't do it from package-install...:(
23:02	cataska	xeqi: Cool, thank you
23:54	Ceterizine	>_>