#clojure – 2014-08-31

2014-08-31

00:20	meoblast001	is there a way to map in clojure and get the previous item without using reduce?
00:33	xeqi	,(map (juxt identity inc) [1 2 3])
00:33	clojurebot	([1 2] [2 3] [3 4])
00:33	xeqi	meoblast001: ^ ?
00:34	maravillas	,(let [c (range 4)] (map vector c (drop 1 c)))
00:34	clojurebot	([0 1] [1 2] [2 3])
00:34	meoblast001	hmm. that works i think
00:34	xeqi	or did you mean the previous in the list?
00:34	meoblast001	previous or next works really
00:34	maravillas	,(map identity (partition 2 1 (range 4)))
00:34	clojurebot	((0 1) (1 2) (2 3))
00:35	xeqi	meoblast001: then something like maravillas's answer
00:35	meoblast001	hmm
00:35	meoblast001	i don't think i understand juxt :/
00:36	meoblast001	maravillas: ah, yes. just throwing the partition in could do it
00:36	meoblast001	thanks
00:36	maravillas	welcome :)
00:36	gws	,(map (juxt inc) [1 2 3])
00:37	clojurebot	([2] [3] [4])
00:37	gws	,(map (juxt inc dec) [1 2 3])
00:37	clojurebot	([2 0] [3 1] [4 2])
00:38	gws	meoblast001: does that help?
00:39	meoblast001	hmm
00:39	gws	so juxt produces a new function which will call each of the functions you passed to it on the element you give the new 'juxt-function', and return a vector with those results
00:39	meoblast001	so it takes arbitrary functions with 2 parameter
00:39	meoblast001	and creates one function with 1 parameter
00:40	gws	you can give juxt as many functions as you like
00:40	gws	as i did above
00:40	meoblast001	that 1 parameter is a list,and it applies those arbitrary functions to all of those functions to each element in the list
00:40	meoblast001	hmmm okay
00:40	meoblast001	makes sense. thanks
00:40	gws	,(map (juxt inc dec inc dec) [1 2 3])
00:40	clojurebot	([2 0 2 0] [3 1 3 1] [4 2 4 2])
00:41	meoblast001	,((juxt inc dec) 5)
00:41	clojurebot	[6 4]
00:41	meoblast001	yeah, makes sense
00:50	wildnux	when i do (seq "abcd") it shows ("a", "b", "c", "d") in clojurescript but shows (\a, \b, \c, \d) in clojure, why is it different, and how do i know which "seq" funtion i am using?
00:51	wildnux	how do i know the full namespaced form of a function or var?
00:52	rhg135	wildnux, in js there are no characters, they're single char strings
00:53	wildnux	rhg135: aah :)
00:53	wildnux	rhg135: how do i get the full namespaced form of a function/symbol/vars in clojure?
00:53	wildnux	i thought #'varname would show but it doesnot :D
00:53	rhg135	,(symbol (resolve '+))
00:53	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Var cannot be cast to java.lang.String>
00:53	rhg135	hmm
00:55	rhg135	,(symbol (-> (resolve '+) str (subs 2)))
00:55	clojurebot	clojure.core/+
00:55	rhg135	very hackish tho
00:55	verma	the syntax quote should work too right?
00:55	verma	,`+
00:55	clojurebot	clojure.core/+
00:55	rhg135	oh
00:55	rhg135	duh
00:55	rhg135	thank you
00:56	verma	:)
00:56	wildnux	what does resolve do?
00:56	rhg135	resolves a symbol to a var in clj
01:02	fifosine	,(let [word "0123"]
01:02	fifosine	(loop [coll (butlast word)]
01:02	fifosine	(if (empty? coll)
01:02	fifosine	(println (last word))
01:02	fifosine	(do
01:02	fifosine	(println (first coll))
01:02	fifosine	(println "join")
01:02	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
01:02	fifosine	(recur (rest coll))))))
01:07	opqdonut	fifosine: you should've given the whole sexp on one line
01:15	fifosine	What's a macro that will take something like
01:15	fifosine	,(take 5 (repeat '(println 5)))
01:15	clojurebot	((println 5) (println 5) (println 5) (println 5) (println 5))
01:15	fifosine	and wrap it in a do form?
01:57	blaenk	I realize this may be a very broad/open question, but can anyone imagine why it takes two sends for my core.async to register a receive?
01:58	blaenk	I made the channel with (chan), and am only using put! and <!
02:16	harja	Hi all, a very dumb question, how do I perform a long lasting calculation once and bind it to a name in the ns? I tried (def foo (filter ... pmap ....))
02:17	harja	hm, now it was instantaneous... what the
02:17	harja	So that is the right way then? :)
07:50	kqr	haroldwu, your question isn't entirely clear, but it's possible that filter/map doesn't perform the computation until it is needed, and then it's only done once
07:50	kqr	haroldwu, never mind
07:50	kqr	haroldwu, that was meant for someone else who isn't hear anymore and i'm tired enough to not notice the tab completion going wrong
07:54	Rhainur	kqr: haha I was trying to figure out where the question was
08:18	martinklepsch	in the core.async documentation functions like map< have a note "Deprecated - this function will be removed. Use transformer instead" — whats a transformer in that context?
08:18	john2x	hello. how do I stop a function from running in a CIDER repl?
08:19	john2x	martinklepsch: I think they refer to transducers http://blog.cognitect.com/blog/2014/8/6/transducers-are-coming
08:21	john2x	the post includes an example using it with channels.. so the doc could be a typo/needs updating..
08:21	kqr	yeah that looks like that'd be it
08:23	john2x	ah here "So, reducing function transformers are getting a name - 'transducers', and first-class support in Clojure core and core.async."
08:30	kqr	is there some version of contains? that works for a set of keys, and checks if all of them exists in the indexable? (as opposed to some which only checks for if at least one of them exists)
08:31	martinklepsch	john2x: that was the first thing that popped to my mind as well but the name confused me. thanks!
08:32	kqr	ah, (every?) does that, it seems
08:32	kqr	wait no
08:32	kqr	that's not quite it either I don't think
08:35	john2x	kqr: superset?
08:35	john2x	ah but both needs to be sets
08:36	kqr	yeah
08:36	kqr	if it helps, what is happening is that i'm trying to write a test for a function that returns a map
08:36	kqr	that map is supposed to have a few things
08:36	kqr	though now that I say it
08:36	kqr	i think I might be doing the entire thing wrong
08:52	kqr	but how do I express "I want this map to be equal to this map except it might contain some more things?"
08:52	kqr	it's not a transitive relation, but it shouldn't be too weird anyway, I think
08:53	kqr	it's like superset? but for maps
08:54	kqr	I guess I can convert to sets and then check superset?
08:54	ephemeron	kqr: There are many ways to approach the problem; if you would like to use sets, you can just extract the keys from the map with `keys`.
08:55	kqr	ephemeron, in this case I realised I want keys and values
08:55	john2x	hmm why does `((fn [] [:a :b]))` work but `(#([:a :b]))` doesn't?
08:55	kqr	ephemeron, so I have a function that returns {:name "kqr" :age 27 :occupation :unemployed} and I want to check that it contains at least {:name "kqr" :age 27}
08:55	kqr	but it can contain more than that
08:56	kqr	john2x, it evaluates the thing inside #() as something inside normal parens
08:56	kqr	john2x, with the exception of argument expansion
08:57	kqr	john2x, so it tries to interpret your vector as a function or special form, I guess?
08:57	kqr	john2x, #(quote [1 2]) works
08:57	kqr	john2x, so does #(identity [1 2])
08:58	ephemeron	kqr: Are you looking to validate the values, or just check if they are present?
08:58	john2x	oh so it's more ((fn [] ([:a :b])))?
08:58	kqr	john2x, exactly
08:58	john2x	ok, makes sense. thanks
08:58	kqr	ephemeron, i'm writing a test for a parser. i give it a string and I want to check that it gives me the correct map back (which contains the result of the parse)
09:01	ephemeron	kqr: If you trust the values and only want to verify that the required keys are present,
09:02	ephemeron	you could do e.g. (superset? (into #{} (keys some-map)) required-keys)
09:02	kqr	ephemeron, I don't trust the values :>
09:07	ephemeron	If it is just for a one-off predicate, you could convert both the to-be-tested map and the test-map to sets; for full validation, you might want to seek a library.
09:09	kqr	thanks
09:09	ephemeron	e.g. (into #{} {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3}) is a superset of (into #{} {:a 1 :b 2})
09:09	ephemeron	but not of (into #{} {:a 1 :b 3}).
09:12	kqr	is there a particular reason to use (partial into #{}) instead of (set)?
09:12	gfredericks	kqr: into uses transients
09:12	gfredericks	until 1.7, then clojure.core/set should be upgraded to use transients as well
09:13	kqr	ah
09:40	kqr	wow I went from trying to write a few tests to majorly reworking parts of my design to be much better
09:40	kqr	that's what I really like about tests
10:44	kqr	hm
10:44	kqr	what I don't like is that so many functions return nil when they fail
10:46	mi6x3m	kqr: why is this?
10:47	kqr	maybe that's just me but it feels like I have to do so many explicit checks
10:47	kqr	though perhaps I should just set up a precondition on my function that guarantees no nils creeping in
10:51	kqr	mi6x3m, what my function does is it takes a map, and then produces a new map from it
10:51	kqr	mi6x3m, but if the original map doesn't have all the values it's supposed to, the new map will contain nils in certain places
10:51	kqr	mi6x3m, which is bad
10:52	kqr	mi6x3m, because then i'll use the new map expecting it to have no nils in those places, and whenever the program finally crashes or shows bad behaviour, the cause is far from the effect
10:55	thesaskwatch	Hi, why when I do (swap! (atom "abc") str "def") I get abcdef instead of def?
10:57	thesaskwatch	ok, now I know
10:57	thesaskwatch	nvm
10:57	ephemeron	thesaskwatch: `swap!` passes the current value of the atom to the applied function.
10:57	ephemeron	You most likely want `reset!`
10:58	thesaskwatch	ephemeron: thanks .. you I should just read the friendly manual
10:58	thesaskwatch	you -> yeah
10:59	jbaiter	when i open a repl with 'lein repl', how can I add the current working directory to the classpath?
11:00	jbaiter	when i try to do '(use my-ns)' it says that it can't find "my_ns.clj" on the classpath, even though a file with that name exists in the directory i start the repl from
11:18	fifosine	I've got these two function which follow the same form https://www.refheap.com/89623 in which a no-arg, side-effectful function is executed in between the execution of a one-arg, side-effectful function for each element in a list. Is there a way to write a function that abstracts this form based on the two functions and the collection?
11:25	mi6x3m	fifosine: some more info please?
11:25	mi6x3m	I see they are quite similar
11:25	fifosine	mi6x3m: What info do you need?
11:25	mi6x3m	yet how many such functions do you expect to have?
11:25	fifosine	I expect 1 function to abstract the similar functionality seen in the paste
11:26	mi6x3m	ehm, i'm not sure if I am going to do that
11:26	mi6x3m	in fact, in their current form
11:26	mi6x3m	both functions are extremely hard to comprehend
11:27	mi6x3m	for someone else than you
11:28	fifosine	maybe I can make more sense of them: the doseq is there only to execute the list of functions that's being created. the list of functions is created by the interposing of 1) a sleep function and 2) a function that makes a noise for each dit-dah in a khar
11:28	fifosine	that's in the first function
11:29	fifosine	the second is the same but the sleep function is different and it makes noises for each khar in a word instead of dit-dah in a khar
11:33	mi6x3m	fifosine: I see
11:33	mi6x3m	well, I would first start by abstracting the xyz-to-sound function
11:34	mi6x3m	because they are quite similar
11:34	fifosine	right, that's what I'm asking for help on
11:35	mi6x3m	fifosine: first, let's see about the states
11:35	mi6x3m	word-to-sound has side effects so I think 'read-word!' is more suitable
11:35	mi6x3m	or something like that
11:36	mi6x3m	then instead of using interpose
11:36	mi6x3m	you can just do li
11:37	mi6x3m	(doseq [c (charater...)]
11:37	mi6x3m	(read-char! c)
11:37	mi6x3m	(sleep))
11:37	mi6x3m	this would make it a bit more readable
11:37	fifosine	but then there's an added sleep at the end. This is the purpose of the transpose call
11:39	mi6x3m	well you are introducing aritificial complexity right now with all the anonymous functions
11:39	mi6x3m	so output the first element separately and then the doseq loop
11:43	mi6x3m	fifosine: something like that, for starters
11:43	mi6x3m	http://pastebin.com/ciLKD9mh
11:43	fifosine	ok, that makes sense, thanks!
11:44	mi6x3m	fifosine: then you immediately see the pattern for abstraction
11:44	mi6x3m	1. the function, read-char!
11:44	mi6x3m	2. the delay
11:44	mi6x3m	3. the collection, chars
11:45	mi6x3m	read-with-delay! f d col
12:02	justin_smith	kqr: hey, have you considered using schema to verify your maps?
12:04	kqr	justin_smith, no! what's that?
12:04	justin_smith	https://github.com/Prismatic/schema
12:04	justin_smith	kqr: it's a lib designed to verify the structure and contents of clojure data
12:04	justin_smith	which sounds perfect for what you are trying to do
12:05	justin_smith	you can use it to annotate functions, giving a name to the structure of data it should take or return
12:06	kqr	that looks amazing
12:09	justin_smith	sure beats a bunch of calls to nil?
12:12	kqr	sure does
13:01	fifosine	,(doseq [x '((println 1) (println 2))] x)
13:01	clojurebot	nil
13:02	fifosine	why does that not print?
13:02	teslanick	Because it's just a list of symbols.
13:05	llasram	,(for [x '((println 1) (println 2))] x)
13:05	clojurebot	((println 1) (println 2))
13:07	fifosine	teslanick, llasram: I'm trying to write a macro that wraps doseq. I have this so far, but as you pointed out teslanick, it just yields a list of symbols.
13:07	fifosine	(defmacro wrap-doseq [body] `(doseq [~'x '~body] ~'x))
13:08	fifosine	how do I get it to eval?
13:08	bbloom	fifosine: it seems like you're just using ~ and ' indiscriminately
13:08	justin_smith	fifosine: the point of doseq is that it do something - but the ~'x in the body won't do anything that the expansion of ~body did not do
13:08	bbloom	fifosine: it's worth experimenting with ` without defmacro
13:08	fifosine	bbloom: I might be, I'm using this as an exercise to learn how to use quoting etc
13:08	bbloom	fifosine: forget macros for a moment and play with the quoting operators in your repl
13:09	bbloom	fifosine: it will let you iterate much faster and you'll probably figure it out on your own
13:09	bbloom	and also experiment with x# instead of ~'x
13:09	fifosine	What is x#?
13:09	bbloom	fifosine: try it in your repl and it should become clear pretty quickly
13:09	bbloom	(with quoting)
13:10	fifosine	how do you mean
13:10	bbloom	fifosine: you've got a repl right?
13:10	fifosine	if you could provide a quick example, I'll start experimenting
13:10	fifosine	yes
13:10	justin_smith	,`(let [x# 1] x#)
13:10	clojurebot	(clojure.core/let [x__93__auto__ 1] x__93__auto__)
13:10	bbloom	,x#
13:10	arrdem	does anyone know of a Clojure java.net.URI wrapper which allows for multimethod dispatch on URI type when attempting to slurp? clojure.java.io doesn't provide this and I'm not seeing it with a quick google.
13:10	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: x# in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
13:10	bbloom	,'x#
13:10	clojurebot	x#
13:10	bbloom	,`x#
13:10	clojurebot	x__164__auto__
13:10	bbloom	,'[x# x#]
13:10	clojurebot	[x# x#]
13:11	bbloom	,`[x# x#]
13:11	clojurebot	[x__213__auto__ x__213__auto__]
13:11	bbloom	there's like a dozen examples fo ryou
13:11	bbloom	just type some crap in to the repl and see what happens!
13:11	bbloom	your computer won't explode, i promise
13:15	fifosine	bbloom: Okay, so I've got the macro working the way I want. It looks like
13:15	fifosine	(defmacro wrap-doseq [body] `(doseq [x# '~body] (eval x#)))
13:15	fifosine	but isn't using eval discouraged?
13:15	fifosine	how do I get around this?
13:15	bbloom	fifosine: quote and eval are (more or less) opposite operations
13:15	llasram	fifosine: What are you actually trying to make the macro even do?
13:15	bbloom	they cancel each other out
13:16	bbloom	fifosine: so if you've got one too many evals, you might have one too many quotes
13:16	fifosine	llasram: given a list of unevaluated function calls, wrap it in a doseq (as opposed to a do)
13:16	bbloom	fifosine: but in this case, you're generating code that has a loop, rather than using a loop to generate code
13:16	fifosine	bbloom: Yes, that's intended
13:16	llasram	fifosine: "wrap it in a doseq" isn't well-defined
13:17	bbloom	fifosine: i think your intention is wrong then :-P
13:17	justin_smith	also, '(println :x) is a list of a symbol and a keyword, it is not an unevaluated function call
13:17	llasram	fifosine: Are you kind trying to re-implement `do` in terms of `doseq`?
13:18	fifosine	bbloom: actually, you're right, I don't need the doseq to be generated, I could just perform the doseq within the macro
13:18	bbloom	fifosine: and now it's time to experiment with ~@ outside of defmacro
13:18	bbloom	,`~@(range 3)
13:18	clojurebot	#<IllegalStateException java.lang.IllegalStateException: splice not in list>
13:18	bbloom	,`[~@(range 3)]
13:18	clojurebot	[0 1 2]
13:18	bbloom	,`[~@(range 0)]
13:18	clojurebot	[]
13:18	Bronsa	`(~@()) :(
13:18	Bronsa	,`(~@()) :(
13:18	clojurebot	nil
13:19	bbloom	Bronsa: hmmm
13:19	justin_smith	Bronsa: that last one is like bizarro ascii art
13:19	Bronsa	I should get clojurebot to automatically dec me each time I write clojure code without "," in front of it
13:20	Bronsa	maybe that'll make me remember
13:20	bbloom	Bronsa: if it could detect that, then it might as well just damn evaluate it :-P
13:20	Bronsa	bbloom: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1444
13:20	bbloom	Bronsa: is that not a giant breaking change?
13:21	justin_smith	Bronsa: add a hook to your client inserting , before all your messages to this channel
13:21	justin_smith	:P
13:21	Bronsa	, justin_smith: that might get annoying pretty fast
13:21	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: justin_smith:>
13:21	Bronsa	^
13:21	justin_smith	yeah :)
13:22	Bronsa	bbloom: maybe, but I think everybody would expect (~@whatever) to always return a list, not nil
13:22	Bronsa	I doubt there's code that depends on that returning nil
13:22	bbloom	Bronsa: by that logic, i doubt there's code that would desire it to return ()
13:22	fifosine	bbloom: I have this now, but it still uses eval
13:22	fifosine	(defmacro wrap-doseq [body] (doseq [x body] (eval x)))
13:23	Janiczek	Hi, is there a way for Schema to throw an exception when I'm using a schema B instead of schema A, but they are the same under the hood? Example code: https://gist.github.com/Janiczek/e9c74130f18dd17c6d11
13:23	bbloom	fifosine: how come you're still trying to make this work with defmacro? i'm not sure how much clearer i can be about this: get it working without defmacro, using only quoting in your repl
13:24	bbloom	fifosine: you're confused about both defmacro and quote, so you're definitely not going to understand them both at the same time
13:24	Bronsa	bbloom: find me one guy in this room that knows `(~@x) might return nil (except you and me now) :P
13:24	bbloom	Bronsa: all i'm saying is that i'm sure there's a library somewhere that will break
13:24	bbloom	:-P
13:24	bbloom	Bronsa: whether or not you care is another question
13:24	fifosine	bbloom: You're saying, get it working w/out defmacro and without eval, right?
13:24	bbloom	fifosine: i'm saying forget defmacro until you understand quoting
13:26	Bronsa	bbloom: "For Lists/Vectors/Sets/Maps, syntax-quote establishes a template of the corresponding data structure"
13:26	Bronsa	bbloom: the documentation is clear, if a library breaks, it deserves to.
13:27	Bronsa	brb dinner
13:27	bbloom	Bronsa: ok, so you don't care :-P
13:27	fifosine	bbloom: If I understand quoting, should I be able to remove the call to eval in the snippet?
13:28	fifosine	bbloom: e.g., I still have
13:28	fifosine	(doseq [x '((println 1) (println 2))] (eval x))
13:28	bbloom	fifosine: if you understand quoting, you'll understand whether or not you need an eval too
13:28	justin_smith	,(map #(.getScheme (java.net.URI. %)) ["telnet://foo/bar" "file:///twiddle" "http://example.com"]) ; arrdem maybe I misunderstand your question, but why not use #(.getScheme %) as a dispatch for a multimethod?
13:28	clojurebot	("telnet" "file" "http")
13:29	fifosine	bbloom: Ah, okay, I see what you're saying. Well, it seems like if I ever need code to not be evaluated, I need to quote it so that it's known as a list of symbols. If I later need to take that same list of symbols and then evaluate it as I would expect, I have to use eval.
13:30	justin_smith	fifosine: you can also delay evaluation by constructing a function, and later calling it
13:30	bbloom	fifosine: except that you don't have to evaluate it yourself
13:30	fifosine	i.e. if I quote something and then want it evaluated, I need to use eval
13:30	bbloom	fifosine: a macro takes code in and returns code out
13:30	bbloom	fifosine: the compiler will ensure that the generated code gets evaluated
13:31	fifosine	hmmm
13:31	bbloom	fifosine: like i said, quote and eval cancel each other out
13:32	bbloom	fifosine: a macro is quoting something, applying a function to it, then evaluating the result of that function call
13:33	fifosine	bbloom: Given that, I don't think it's possible to write this w/out eval
13:33	arrdem	justin_smith: that's what I want to do... issue is that as implemented clojure.java.io doesn't provide such extensible dispatch. URIs are handled as (slurp (.toURL my-uri))
13:33	bbloom	fifosine: you're wrong
13:33	arrdem	justin_smith: pondering how to package such an extension lib
13:34	bbloom	fifosine: if i give you the answer, you won't get to experience the joyous insight of understanding syntax quote
13:34	bbloom	fifosine: your goal is to write an expression that returns the right code you want to run, not to actually run the code
13:34	fifosine	ok, don't tell me then, I do want to figure it out I just feel slow
13:35	bbloom	fifosine: go away and play with your repl, you'll get it
13:35	fifosine	bbloom: If what I get from defmacro is a list of lists of symbols already quoted, i.e. '((println 1) (println 2)), and I want to iterate over this list, evaling each element, how can I not use eval
13:36	bbloom	fifosine: why are you still talking about defmacro?
13:37	fifosine	because before, when I assumed not using defmacro, if I wanted to quote things, later I had to use eval. as you said, they're "opposite" operations. and then you said "except that you don't have to evaluate it yourself", which I thought was referring to the power of macros
13:37	fifosine	so then I thought the solution isn't possible w/out them
13:37	fifosine	but I guess it is
13:38	bbloom	fifosine: you don't have to evaluate it yourself when you use defmacro
13:38	justin_smith	fifosine: he's saying, play with syntax-quote outside macros for a while, see what they really do, then use it inside a macro
13:39	bbloom	which is why i'm advising you to not think about defmacro for a bit, b/c it does some extra operations that make it harder to understand the primitives
13:39	bbloom	your goal is to generate the right code, not to run it
13:39	bbloom	if you want to make sure you generated the right code, you can call eval on that
13:39	bbloom	but my advice, is to do it like this:
13:39	fifosine	then, is there another way of writing this w/out eval and w/out defmacro
13:39	fifosine	(doseq [x '((println 1) (println 2))] (eval x))
13:39	bbloom	,'(println 5)
13:39	clojurebot	(println 5)
13:39	fifosine	is that what I'm missing?
13:39	bbloom	,(eval *1)
13:39	clojurebot	#<Unbound Unbound: #'clojure.core/*1>
13:39	bbloom	oh, well that would work :-P
13:40	bbloom	use (eval *1) to test code you generate in your repl
13:40	fifosine	I gotcha
13:40	bbloom	at this point i'm going to stop talking b/c really there's only two ways for you get figure this out 1) somebody tells you or 2) you go experiment for a while and you'll understand it much more deeply
13:41	bbloom	go! have fun
13:41	fifosine	ugh ok
13:41	fifosine	I'm losing sight of the goal
13:44	Bronsa	bbloom: right, I don't care indeed, but my point is that I don't think anybody should care about libraries that depend on behaviour different than that documented
13:44	Bronsa	about not breaking*
13:44	Bronsa	they depend on a bug and bugs should get fixed
13:45	bbloom	Bronsa: i'm just playing devil's advocate here. personally i don't care one way or another, but if you're the only person who has ever noticed, then it's not worth risking any breaking change at all
13:45	bbloom	Bronsa: potentially, anyway
13:46	bbloom	Bronsa: it'd be one thing if no code could break and new code was possible, but somebody might depend on the falseness of that, and you say you don't care, but somebody might be scratching their heads for 3 friggin days after upgrading clojure
13:46	Bronsa	bbloom: that's what changelogs are for :P
13:46	bbloom	Bronsa: you gotta weigh cost & benefit
13:46	bbloom	cost is potential head scratching & broken lib w/ an absent maintainer
13:46	bbloom	and benefit is what exactly?
13:47	bbloom	it matches the "spec" which is a one liner on a page nobody reads?
13:47	bbloom	don't get me wrong, i think it probably should return empty list
13:47	Bronsa	bbloom: yeah, I understand what you're saying
13:47	bbloom	and i'd be totally fine if your patch got accepted
13:47	bbloom	but then again i'm not a clojure maintainer
13:48	Bronsa	it's just it makes me feel really bad when edge-cases don't work as they should :P
13:48	bbloom	switching from devil's advocate to being just a plain old joker:
13:48	bbloom	you should go write a programming language with NO EDGE CASES :-)
13:51	fifosine	bbloom: here's I've been able to write the snippet above w/out eval and w/out defmacro
13:51	fifosine	(doseq [x '((println 1) (println 2))] (apply (resolve (first x)) (rest x)))
13:51	fifosine	,(doseq [x '((println 1) (println 2))] (apply (resolve (first x)) (rest x)))
13:51	clojurebot	1\n2\n
13:52	bbloom	fifosine: lol well i gotta give you credit, that's creative
13:52	fifosine	ugh, not what you were thinking?
13:52	Bronsa	fifosine: resolve falls into the same category as eval
13:52	fifosine	aargggggg
13:52	Bronsa	somewhat
13:52	bbloom	fifosine: you're still running the code, rather than returning the code that you want to run...
13:53	bbloom	,(let [x 5] `(* ~x ~x))
13:53	clojurebot	(clojure.core/* 5 5)
13:53	bbloom	,(let [x 5] (eval `(* ~x ~x)))
13:53	clojurebot	25
13:53	bbloom	fifosine: do you understand the difference between those two?
13:54	fifosine	yes, the first is returning a list of symbols, the second is evaluating that list
13:54	bbloom	,(let [form '(prn 1)] (eval `(do ~form ~form))) ; do you understand why this prints two ones?
13:54	clojurebot	1\n1\n
13:54	bbloom	can you write an expression that returns (do (clojure.core/println 1) (clojure.core/println 2)) ?
13:54	fifosine	yes, ~form turns into (prn 1), then (do (prn 1) (prn 1)) is eval'd
13:55	bbloom	(eval (doseq [x '((println 1) (println 2))] (apply (resolve (first x)) (rest x)))) ; this is what a macro is going to do to your code
13:55	bbloom	,(eval (doseq [x '((println 1) (println 2))] (apply (resolve (first x)) (rest x)))) ; this is what a macro is going to do to your code
13:55	clojurebot	1\n2\n
13:55	bbloom	that looks like it works, but it's not quite right
13:56	bbloom	,(def foo (doseq [x '((println 1) (println 2))] (apply (resolve (first x)) (rest x)))) ; let's defer evaluation
13:56	clojurebot	1\n2\n#'sandbox/foo
13:56	bbloom	^^ whoops! it evaluated
13:56	bbloom	,(eval foo)
13:56	clojurebot	nil
13:56	bbloom	fifosine: your goal is to produce code which will evaluate correctly, not to evaluate it yourself
13:57	bbloom	fifosine: experiment with ` and ~@ and replace your doseq with a for
13:57	fifosine	is for preferrable?
13:58	fifosine	,(let [x '((println 1) (println 2))] `(do ~@x))
13:58	clojurebot	(do (println 1) (println 2))
13:58	bbloom	fifosine: it's different
13:59	bbloom	fifosine: the reason you're avoiding doseq or avoiding eval is not that there's something wrong with either of them... it's that they don't do what you need them to do....
13:59	bbloom	but you should experiment with for and doseq and see how they differ
13:59	bbloom	look at their source code
13:59	bbloom	use eval to understand eval
13:59	bbloom	and to understand quote
14:00	fifosine	bbloom: Will I use for to generate code that uses doseq? Or do you suggest replacing doseq with for
14:00	Rhainur	so I'm a Ruby on Rails dev who's trying to learn Clojure, and I'm having a hard time adjusting to freedom :P Specifically Rails was very heavy on convention, and when I'm developing using Luminus I don't really know where to place my code :(
14:00	Rhainur	any guides that I can read with regards to this?
14:01	bbloom	fifosine: can you explain the difference between doseq and for?
14:01	Bronsa	https://github.com/clojure/tools.reader/commit/98d04ddce7152f69ac741ec783d0ce577075aef8 I feel kinda better now
14:01	fifosine	for will return a list
14:01	fifosine	doseq returns nil
14:01	bbloom	fifosine: and?
14:01	fifosine	more specifically, the list returned by for is the concatenation of the results of apply the body to each element in the specified list
14:02	bbloom	fifosine: doseq also supports concatenating nested loops
14:02	bbloom	,(doseq [m "abc" n "xyz"] [m n])
14:02	clojurebot	nil
14:02	bbloom	,(doseq [m "abc" n "xyz"] (println [m n]))
14:02	clojurebot	[a x]\n[a y]\n[a z]\n[b x]\n[b y]\n[b z]\n[c x]\n[c y]\n[c z]\n
14:03	bbloom	(doc doseq)
14:03	clojurebot	"([seq-exprs & body]); Repeatedly executes body (presumably for side-effects) with bindings and filtering as provided by \"for\". Does not retain the head of the sequence. Returns nil."
14:03	fifosine	oh ok, like a cartesian product? I didn't know that
14:03	bbloom	note the parenthetical:
14:03	bbloom	"presumably for side-effects"
14:03	fifosine	to be clear, I'm assuming side-effecful functions
14:03	fifosine	part of the reason why i've been using println
14:04	bbloom	fifosine: if you are writing a macro, your goal is NOT TO RUN THE CODE
14:04	bbloom	your goal is to return the code that you want to run
14:04	Shoop	quick question is there any simpler way to write (for [a seq b seq c seq d seq.........] [a b c d.....])
14:04	bbloom	fifosine: macros should not have side effects! although the code generated by the macro may have side effects
14:04	justin_smith	(doc interpose) ; Shoop
14:04	clojurebot	"([sep coll]); Returns a lazy seq of the elements of coll separated by sep"
14:05	bbloom	justin_smith: that's not what Shoop wants
14:05	fifosine	bbloom: The question I need to answer is, what code do I want to be generated w/out using eval
14:05	justin_smith	Shoop: oh wait, that's for, never mind
14:05	Bronsa	Shoop: do you care about the combination order?
14:05	Shoop	Bronsa: not really
14:05	fifosine	bbloom: and w/out using resolve, I guess
14:06	Bronsa	Shoop: then there's `cartesian-product` in math.combinatorics that does exactly that
14:06	bbloom	fifosine: sorry man, but i kinda give up....
14:06	Bronsa	Shoop: https://github.com/clojure/math.combinatorics
14:06	Shoop	Bronsa: thanks :D
14:07	bbloom	,`(do ~@(for [x '((println 1) (println 2))] x)))
14:07	clojurebot	(do (println 1) (println 2))
14:07	fifosine	bbloom: I already have (defmacro wrap-do [body] `(do ~@body))
14:07	fifosine	I thought that writing it in terms of doseq might be enlightening
14:07	bbloom	fifosine: i have no idea what you're talking about
14:08	alexyakushev	Hi, quick question. Why the following exception slips through catch: (try (map str 'foo) (catch Exception ex "failed"))
14:08	Bronsa	fifosine: I suggest you read (or re-read) an introductory clojure book or a documentation series before trying to do what you're doing. You clearly haven't understood yet how evaluation & macros work
14:08	fifosine	bbloom: What I mean to say is, maybe my aim was fruitless. I thought that writing a macro which took a list of function calls, and evaluated the list using doseq as opposed to using do (as above) would be interesting.
14:08	fifosine	but I guess it's not
14:09	alexyakushev	I mean, I know it's probably because of the laziness, but what the hell
14:09	Bronsa	alexyakushev: yes, it's because of map being lazy
14:10	fifosine	bbloom: sorry to have wasted your time, but thanks for sticking with me for as long as you did
14:11	Bronsa	alexyakushev: the only way to make that work is to force the evaluation of map inside the try, with a doall
14:14	alexyakushev	Bronsa: yeap, that's what I thought
14:14	alexyakushev	Seems awfully surprising and confusing to me
14:16	Bronsa	alexyakushev: there's no other way to do it and preserve the lazyness of map
14:19	alexyakushev	Bronsa: why the try-catch context cannot be enclosed the same way the closed variables are?
14:22	alexyakushev	It doesn't feel good to know that the only Clojure's error handling system will let you down as soon as you call a single sequence-operating function
14:22	Bronsa	alexyakushev: locals have lexical extent, try-catch blocks have dynamic extent, it's not the same thing
14:23	dbasch	alexyakushev: what do you mean by let you down? It fails when it’s supposed to
14:23	dbasch	alexyakushev: it’s the same thing as saying “why does the compiler let me compile code that will fail at runtime?”
14:24	Bronsa	alexyakushev: it doesn't let you down. if you're using map you should be aware of its lazyness and of the behaviour it implies
14:25	alexyakushev	dbasch: No, it's not the same. What is the point of an exception that I can't catch? It could just segfault with the same outcome
14:25	Bronsa	alexyakushev: it's the same for dynamic vars, really, the only difference is that vars being implemented by clojure and not in the jvm, can be "captured" manually
14:26	Bronsa	alexyakushev: you can catch that exception. you just need to realize the lazy sequence inside the try block instead of outside
14:26	dbasch	alexyakushev: you can catch it
14:26	Bronsa	,(try (doall (map str 'foo)) (catch Exception _))
14:26	clojurebot	Bronsa: Huh?
14:26	alexyakushev	Bronsa: point is, everyone's using map. So far the only implied behavior to care about for lazyness were side-effects
14:26	Bronsa	clojurebot: what.
14:26	clojurebot	Pardon?
14:26	alexyakushev	Bronsa: Clojail is trained to act dumb when it sees a "catch"
14:27	dbasch	,(try (first (map str 'foo)) (catch Exception ex "failed"))
14:27	clojurebot	dbasch: Titim gan éirí ort.
14:27	alexyakushev	safety reasons I guess
14:27	Bronsa	alexyakushev: clojurebot doesn't use clojail
14:27	dbasch	&(try (first (map str 'foo)) (catch Exception ex "failed"))
14:27	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! catch is bad!
14:27	alexyakushev	OK, then whatever else it uses
14:27	Bronsa	alexyakushev: exceptions are not side-effects?
14:28	alexyakushev	Bronsa: I don't see a reason why they should be
14:29	Bronsa	alexyakushev: it's a side-effect that acts on the state of the program
14:30	alexyakushev	Bronsa: in which way?
14:30	Bronsa	alexyakushev: anyway, lazyness is not only about side-effects, it's about delayed evaluation
14:31	alexyakushev	Overall, I wonder what was the point of doing lazy evaluation the default one if a lot of other concepts of the language don't work well with it
14:31	alexyakushev	"doall your lazy collections to trigger side-effects"
14:31	alexyakushev	"Don't use dynamic binding with lazy collections"
14:31	Bronsa	lazy evaluation is not the default evaluation strategy
14:32	alexyakushev	Now it's "doall your lazy collections to handle exceptions properly"
14:32	Bronsa	clojure is a strictly evaluated language
14:32	alexyakushev	I don't argue, except that almost all sequence processing library is lazy
14:33	alexyakushev	I'm trying to find a reason why should I care whether my collections is lazy or not when I want to catch an exception
14:34	Bronsa	alexyakushev: the evaluation of a lazy collection doesn't imply its realization
14:34	Bronsa	,(def a (map str 'foo))
14:34	clojurebot	#'sandbox/a
14:34	Bronsa	you can't catch the exception caused by evaluation that sequence, if you don't realize it
14:35	xeqi	,a
14:35	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Symbol>
14:35	Bronsa	until you realize a lazy sequence, it's just a box with the recipe for building itself
14:36	alexyakushev	Nicola, you are saying everything correctly from the implementation standpoint
14:36	Bronsa	alexyakushev: if you want to make sure (map f y=[x ..]) succeds assuming that (f x) returns a correct value, you need to validate y
14:37	Bronsa	e.g. (assert (seq y))
14:37	alexyakushev	But it doesn't answer the question why can't I have an error handling mechanism that lets me not care whether my collection is lazy or not
14:38	alexyakushev	Or not a collection at all
14:38	justin_smith	alexyakushev: do proper validation. the schema library can help there. or you may find yourself happier using a statically typed language. but clojure simply isn't one.
14:40	alexyakushev	justin_smith: well, actually I use Clojure exactly for the reason that I don't have to put static types everywhere. I don't want that code to fail during compilation (like it would in statically typed language), I don't want it to fail at all
14:41	xeqi	alexyakushev: what would try/catch do when half the sequence would evaluate successfully?
14:42	Bronsa	xeqi: he's expecting the try-catch block to be "captured" by the lazy-seq, and its evaluation be done using that try-catch context
14:43	Bronsa	which is not something that's really possible on the JVM
14:44	alexyakushev	Bronsa: That's what I "expected", that is right
14:44	alexyakushev	I'm not saying that's what I really want
14:44	Bronsa	you'd have to reify every try-catch block and somewhat attach it to its body
14:44	alexyakushev	I understand that implementing this requires special handling in the compiler, and besides you say it is not at all possible
14:45	alexyakushev	But then it means that the current error handling system cannot work well with other primary language concepts (like laziness)
14:46	Bronsa	alexyakushev: right, that's a tradeoff you're supposed to be making when using lazy sequences
14:47	Bronsa	features that have a dynamic extent like dynamic vars and exception handling don't know how to interact with lazyness
14:47	justin_smith	let's remember that with (map str 'foo) the argument isn't even valid - you can use schema validation to catch the error without needing to do anything fancy with try/catch here
14:49	alexyakushev	justin_smith: Thank you for trying to put me on the right path, but this is half-artificial example and in my case I actually need the try/catch
14:50	Bronsa	alexyakushev: (map f x) might fail for two reasons: either x is not seqable or (f y) fails with y an element of x
14:51	Bronsa	alexyakushev: to avoid the first occurrence, rewrite f as #(try (f %) (catch Exception _ ..))
14:51	Bronsa	to avoid the second, validate x before calling map over it
14:51	Bronsa	that might involve realizing all, or some part of x, clojure can't do that automatically for you
14:51	bbloom	Bronsa: i've got a compiler question for you
14:52	bbloom	Bronsa: if i return a closure from a method, will that closure keep any pointers to the containing instance?
14:52	bbloom	Bronsa: that is (deftype T [foo] SomeProtocol (someMethod [this] (fn [x] foo))) ; will this be captured at all?
14:53	Bronsa	bbloom: yes if you're using a field of that instance
14:53	bbloom	Bronsa: argh. what if i copy it to a local?
14:55	Bronsa	bbloom: nvm, sorry, it only captures the value
14:55	bbloom	Bronsa: you sure? :-)
14:56	Bronsa	it will capture the instance if you use (.-foo this) rather than foo
14:56	bbloom	Bronsa: ok that makes sense
14:56	bbloom	thanks
14:56	Shoop	I am new to clojure coming from an imperative programming background. Can someone help me translate a simple python function into clojure?
14:56	Shoop	http://pastebin.com/ezD3bCgv
14:57	alexyakushev	Bronsa: btw speaking of doall, too bad it will help only if you control the sequence generation https://www.refheap.com/89629
14:57	gfredericks	Shoop: depends on how direct you want; lines 13 and 16 aren't very idiomatic, since they're linear time
14:58	Bronsa	alexyakushev: yeah, doall isn't recursive
14:58	Bronsa	it only forces the sequence you give it, not the subsequences
14:58	Shoop	gfredericks: i was looking for something more functional
14:58	Shoop	gfredericks: i tried doing it with recurse but i was having trouble
14:58	Shoop	*recursion
14:59	gfredericks	Shoop: clojure style usually involves higher level operations on collections when possible
14:59	gfredericks	Shoop: in this case clojure.core/frequencies is an interesting way to get a lot of the logic you have
14:59	gfredericks	,(def list1 [1 2 3])
14:59	clojurebot	#'sandbox/list1
14:59	gfredericks	,(def list2 [3 3 4 5])
14:59	clojurebot	#'sandbox/list2
14:59	gfredericks	,(frequencies list1)
14:59	clojurebot	{1 1, 2 1, 3 1}
15:00	gfredericks	,(frequencies list2)
15:00	clojurebot	{3 2, 4 1, 5 1}
15:00	Shoop	oh and then you could zip them and work from there
15:00	gfredericks	sorta yeah
15:00	gfredericks	I would just iterate through the first one and use the second one at each point
15:00	Shoop	ok
15:00	Shoop	ill mess around with that
15:00	Shoop	thanks
15:00	gfredericks	np
15:01	gfredericks	also look at map, filter, reduce...
15:01	gfredericks	which work with maps as well
15:01	Bronsa	bbloom: I just checked the bytecode to make sure, I can confirm what I said
15:01	alexyakushev	Bronsa: Yup. So it appears that Clojure pushes laziness down your throat without having the proper infrastructure to deal with its nuances
15:01	Shoop	ok :D
15:01	bbloom	Bronsa: awesome, thank you
15:01	bbloom	Bronsa: working on some fiddly external resource management/cleanup nonsense
15:02	alexyakushev	Which probably means that you have to explicitly doall every place you call map/filter/remove if you know you don't need laziness there
15:02	Bronsa	alexyakushev: if you don't need lazyness, don't use it
15:03	Bronsa	alexyakushev: I use mapv instead of map when I don't need lazyness
15:03	Bronsa	now that transducers are a thing, I'll probably use those
15:03	gfredericks	clojurebot: transducers \|are\| a thing
15:03	clojurebot	Ok.
15:04	alexyakushev	Bronsa: now that's better. What about filter, can I easily replace it?
15:04	gfredericks	,(doc filterv)
15:04	clojurebot	"([pred coll]); Returns a vector of the items in coll for which (pred item) returns true. pred must be free of side-effects."
15:04	alexyakushev	OK, great
15:05	alexyakushev	Two words that could save me an hour of ranting and wasting everyone's time:)
15:05	Bronsa	alexyakushev: you can use filterv
15:05	Bronsa	(inc gfredericks)
15:05	lazybot	⇒ 86
15:05	justin_smith	Shoop: https://www.refheap.com/89630 my imperfect version of example (returns the right results, code could be better)
15:05	Bronsa	alexyakushev: or, with transducers, use the filter transducer :)
15:06	Bronsa	alexyakushev: you never said you didn't need the lazyness
15:06	Bronsa	if you did, I'm sorry I missed that
15:06	alexyakushev	Bronsa: yeah, but I suspect it will take a while before 1.7 will become the oldest supported Clojure version
15:06	justin_smith	alexyakushev: I don't doubt that people use laziness in clojure without thinking about it, but it is not forced on you - my above function, coincidentially, has no lazy values in it
15:07	alexyakushev	Or will transducers be somehow backported into 1.5/1.6 (via a library of sorts)?
15:07	Bronsa	alexyakushev: I doubt they will
15:08	alexyakushev	Bronsa: I might have forgot to say that I don't need laziness in this particular example. But regardless, the map/filter are the functions that you read about in all books, and everyone uses them rather than mapv/filterv
15:08	Bronsa	,(:added (meta #'mapv))
15:08	clojurebot	"1.4"
15:08	Bronsa	alexyakushev: I'll be surprised if books covering clojure >=1.4.0 didn't mention them
15:08	alexyakushev	I meant transducers when I talked about versions
15:09	alexyakushev	They do, I knew about mapv
15:09	gfredericks	alexyakushev: I missed what your main issue with laziness is; something about error handling?
15:09	alexyakushev	But I thought of it more like "map for vectors"
15:09	alexyakushev	Rather than "non-lazy map"
15:10	justin_smith	gfredericks: the realizing of the lazy sequence can escape a try/catch, and thus not be caught as expected
15:10	Shoop	thanks justin_smith, looks good. im going to try a version using frequencies as well
15:10	gfredericks	yeah I guess that is kind of unfortunate
15:10	gfredericks	you can't write generic error handling code
15:10	justin_smith	Shoop: the definition of checkout there is a bit verbose - I opted for clarity over conciseness there
15:11	gfredericks	alexyakushev: I think it takes a bit of concentration wrt the boundaries of your functional vs imperative code
15:11	gfredericks	the error handling lives in the imperative part, and you stop using laziness somewhere around the boundary
15:11	alexyakushev	gfredericks: I'm used to that, just didn't think about error-handling as imperative before
15:11	Bronsa	btw c.c/iteration is awesome
15:12	gfredericks	alexyakushev: I probably wouldn't have either except that haskell makes you do it in the IO monad :D
15:12	Shoop	justin_smith: well thanks, its very readable :D
15:13	Bronsa	,(def a (into [] (filter odd?) (map #(doto % println) (range 10))))
15:13	clojurebot	0\n1\n2\n3\n4\n5\n6\n7\n8\n9\n#'sandbox/a
15:13	Bronsa	,(def a (into [] (iteration (filter odd?) (map #(doto % println) (range 10)))))
15:13	clojurebot	0\n1\n2\n3\n4\n5\n6\n7\n8\n9\n#'sandbox/a
15:13	Bronsa	,(def a (sequence (iteration (filter odd?) (map #(doto % println) (range 10)))))
15:13	clojurebot	0\n1\n2\n3\n4\n5\n6\n7\n8\n9\n#'sandbox/a
15:14	Bronsa	uhm
15:14	hiredman	~clojurebot
15:14	clojurebot	clojurebot is in the Clojure IRC channel. Good work.
15:14	hiredman	~clojurebot
15:14	clojurebot	clojurebot is pretty cool
15:14	hiredman	hmm
15:14	gfredericks	~hiredman
15:14	clojurebot	hiredman is an evil genius.
15:14	Bronsa	clojurebot is not my repl? :)
15:14	hiredman	I could be here all day looking for the "is not a benchmarking platform" one
15:15	gfredericks	~not a benchmarking platform
15:15	clojurebot	excusez-moi
15:15	hiredman	~clojurebot
15:15	clojurebot	clojurebot is a multimap
15:15	hiredman	~clojurebot
15:15	clojurebot	clojurebot queues for elephants
15:15	justin_smith	clojurebot: benchmark is clojurebot is not a benchmarking platform
15:15	clojurebot	Roger.
15:15	gfredericks	~benchmark
15:16	clojurebot	criterium or gtfo
15:16	hiredman	justin_smith: you have to wonder, which is did clojurebot take as the assertion there
15:16	justin_smith	ouch
15:16	gfredericks	clojurebot: forget benchmark \|is\| clojurebot is not a benchmarking platform
15:16	clojurebot	I forgot that benchmark is clojurebot is not a benchmarking platform
15:16	alexyakushev	All right, thank you Bronsa, justin_smith, gfredericks. I will go and rewrite the code now
15:16	hiredman	did it?
15:16	alexyakushev	btw, there is no mapcatv, so meh:(
15:17	gfredericks	alexyakushev: start a library called v
15:17	Bronsa	alexyakushev: AFAIK there are only mapv filterv and removev
15:17	justin_smith	(into [] (mapcat ...))
15:17	Bronsa	no removev.
15:17	gfredericks	In clojure, the only functions are mapv, filterv, and removev. And there is no removev.
15:18	justin_smith	gfredericks: worst esoteric lang ever
15:18	Bronsa	I was pretty sure there were 3 $somethingv functions
15:18	Bronsa	meh.
15:18	alexyakushev	gfredericks: v library — sounds like a plan
15:18	alexyakushev	AllThingsV
15:18	gfredericks	,(->> (ns-publics 'clojure.core) keys (filterv #(re-find #"v$" (name %))))
15:18	clojurebot	[filterv reduce-kv mapv]
15:19	justin_smith	,(->> (ns-publics 'clojure.core) (map (comp name first)) (filter #(re-matches #".*v$" %)))
15:19	clojurebot	("filterv" "reduce-kv" "mapv")
15:19	justin_smith	hah, I had the same thought
15:20	gfredericks	mine used filterv though which was more in line with the theme
15:20	justin_smith	heh, good point
15:20	justin_smith	yours was better expressed all around
15:24	Bronsa	uhm
15:24	gfredericks	,(defn setv "Like set, but returns a vector" [coll] (vec (set coll)))
15:24	clojurebot	#'sandbox/setv
15:25	dnolen_	gfredericks: you tolling? :)
15:25	dnolen_	s/tolling/trolling
15:25	justin_smith	do not ask for whom gfredericks tolls, for he tolls for thee
15:25	gfredericks	dnolen_: no more than usual
15:25	gfredericks	~gfredericks
15:25	clojurebot	gfredericks is a menace to bots everywhere
15:26	Bronsa	I wonder if (sequence (iteration (filter odd?) (range 10))) is supposed to realize the first element
15:27	alexyakushev	gfredericks: setv goes to the library for sure
15:27	alexyakushev	(inc gfredericks)
15:27	lazybot	⇒ 87
15:27	gfredericks	,(defn incv "Like inc but returns a vector." [x] [(inc x)])
15:27	clojurebot	#'sandbox/incv
15:28	Bronsa	lol
15:29	philandstuff	strv?
15:29	alexyakushev	lazy-seqv — like lazy-seq but not lazy?
15:29	gfredericks	this library is really shaping up
15:29	gfredericks	listv
15:30	justin_smith	vecv
15:30	gfredericks	nice
15:30	gfredericks	doseqv (always returns empty vector)
15:31	justin_smith	reduce-kvv
15:31	alexyakushev	(defn shutdown-agents "Like shutdown-agents but returns a vector." [] (shutdown-agents) (vector))
15:31	philandstuff	,(def emptyv (constantly []))
15:31	clojurebot	#'sandbox/emptyv
15:31	Shoop	gfredericks: I think i figured out a way using list comprehensions - (apply + (for [a (frequencies list1), b (frequencies list2) :when (and (= (first a) (first b)) (>= (second a) (second b)))] (second b))))
15:32	gfredericks	Shoop: after calling frequencies you should only have to do one iteration
15:33	justin_smith	Shoop: yeah, that's ignoring the wonderful associative property of a map, but walking it linearly
15:33	justin_smith	Shoop: a little silly
15:33	Shoop	gfredericks: but testing if the item is in list2 is another iteration
15:34	gfredericks	Shoop: it's a map, so you can do a direct lookup
15:34	hiredman	hey, I got JDBC-99, next person to file an issue gets 100
15:34	Shoop	gfredericks: oh yeah
15:34	justin_smith	,(reduce + (for [x (range 10) y (range 10)] 1)) ; Shoop
15:34	clojurebot	100
15:34	gfredericks	hiredman: oh snap!
15:34	justin_smith	Shoop: for on two collections does a lot my iterations than you might think :)
15:35	gfredericks	justin_smith: I think s/he knew that part, just didn't know it could be avoided
15:35	justin_smith	Shoop: frequencies returns a map - you can find out if a key is in a map without iterating
15:35	Shoop	justin_smith: its O(n^2) right?
15:35	Shoop	justin_smith: yeah i realized that
15:35	Shoop	he
15:36	justin_smith	,(get (frequencies "hello world") \l)
15:36	clojurebot	3
15:36	gfredericks	gender discovery protocol complete
15:36	devn	wait... what
15:36	justin_smith	Shoop: I didn't need to walk the map to find that result - it supports directl lookup
15:36	bbloom	com.sun.jna.Pointer .... is friggin mutable!
15:36	Shoop	justin_smith: i see, well back to the drawing board
15:37	gfredericks	Shoop: want to see mine?
15:37	Shoop	justin_smith: its implemented as a hashtree right?
15:37	bbloom	it just wraps a long and has a frickin static method com.sun.jna.Pointer.nativeValue(Pointer p, long value) to set it
15:37	Shoop	gfredericks: give me a try, i want to use my brain
15:37	justin_smith	Shoop: a hashmap, which has a few backing datastructures depending on size
15:38	Shoop	Shoop: I thought it was a tree with a branching factor of 32
15:38	justin_smith	,(type (frequencies "hello world"))
15:38	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
15:38	gfredericks	I have no idea what the branching factor on the hashmaps is
15:39	Shoop	gfredericks: docs say access is log base 32 n
15:39	Shoop	so
15:39	gfredericks	where does it say that?
15:39	Clarice	I remember hearing that in a talk some years ago
15:39	Clarice	It's based on the implementation of tries
15:40	gfredericks	not to be confused with vectors of course
15:40	justin_smith	Shoop: anyway, point is that the datastructure gives us fast lookup, so we should be suspicious if we are walking all the keys unless the point is to do something to every key
15:40	Clarice	Right, but as far as I can tell pretty much all the basic data types are persistent collections implemented as tries, so that should apply to all of them
15:41	gfredericks	well the 32 bit might not
15:41	Clarice	Has anyone tried Clojure on an Azul machine with great success? I think that'd be a good selling point for them: "Look! Clojure runs super fast with real time garbage collection!"
15:42	Shoop	justin_smith: ok let me try again
15:47	gfredericks	the number 32 does appear a few times in PersistentHashMap.java, so I'm just going to assume that's right
15:51	michaniskin	i remember seeing a clojure library for data schema validation, but not the prismatic/schema one. does anyone remember what it's called?
15:53	mynomoto	michaniskin: https://github.com/miner/herbert maybe?
15:53	gfredericks	also flatland/schematic
15:54	michaniskin	mynomoto: i think that's the one! thanks!
15:59	Shoop	ok its not perfect and i can get rid of a bunch of duplicated stuff with let but how is this? (reduce + (for [a (frequencies guess) :when (and (contains? (frequencies code) (first a)) (>= (second a) (get (frequencies code) (first a))))] (get (frequencies code) (first a))))
15:59	Shoop	oops guess should be list1 and code list2
16:00	Shoop	(reduce + (for [a (frequencies list1) :when (and (contains? (frequencies list2) (first a)) (>= (second a) (get (frequencies list2) (first a))))] (get (frequencies list2) (first a))))
16:06	justin_smith	Shoop: yeah, a let would help a lot there
16:06	Shoop	but i think its down to O(n) now?
16:07	gfredericks	Shoop: I'm not sure that does the same thing?
16:07	Shoop	justin_smith: also sorry about the variable name mixup, this is part of a bigger project
16:07	gfredericks	your >= filter there seems to be not what you want
16:08	Shoop	gfredericks: how so?
16:08	gfredericks	you want (example [42] [42 42]) to return 1, no?
16:08	Shoop	yes
16:09	gfredericks	but your >= there becomes (>= 1 2)
16:09	gfredericks	ignoring the (first a) at the end which I don't understand at all
16:09	gfredericks	oh wait nm
16:09	Shoop	gfrederickks ah
16:09	Shoop	i see
16:09	gfredericks	I do understand it but my objection remains :)
16:09	Shoop	so it should be <=?
16:09	gfredericks	Shoop: I used min for this bit of logic instead of a >= chechk
16:10	Shoop	Can i see your version?
16:10	gfredericks	https://www.refheap.com/89635
16:12	Shoop	oh i've never seen ->> before
16:12	Shoop	thats fancy :D
16:14	Shoop	gfredericks: btw if you are curious this is for the game http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastermind_(board_game) if you have ever played it
16:14	gfredericks	I guessed that by your variable names :)
16:33	TimMc	I wonder if I sitll have my TI-89 stuff.
16:33	TimMc	That calculator is... 18 years old now?
16:36	gfredericks	I think I transferred them off the calculator once but there's the question of how they're encoded and also where I put the files
16:36	justin_smith	TimMc: I still have a working tandy 102 - nigh indestructible, those are
16:37	gfredericks	I got super excited when I learned Java and discovered I could have more than one letter in my variable names
16:37	tac_	TimMc: and still sold at $100+ to high school students everywhere in the US
16:37	Ven	tac_: and outside of the US, don't worry...
16:37	tac_	despite having less computational power than an arduino
16:43	SagiCZ1	are there any timers in clojure?
16:46	justin_smith	SagiCZ1: there is a Timer class in java you can use with clojure functions via interop
16:47	justin_smith	pretty simple to use, shown here http://stackoverflow.com/questions/16385049/timers-in-clojure
16:49	SagiCZ1	justin_smith: i know that class.. ok thanks
16:58	ycouy	In core.match, is it possible to match on a variadic "middle" of a collection? So in some way ["foo" xs "qux"] would match ["foo" "bar" "baz" "qux"] and bind xs to ["bar" "baz"].
16:59	dnolen_	ycouy: not possible
17:00	ycouy	dnolen_: Do you know of any other language or pattern matching library that does this or something similar?
17:01	dnolen_	ycouy: maybe seqex can do this? https://github.com/jclaggett/seqex
17:02	ycouy	dnolen_: Cool, will look into it. Thanks!
17:15	SagiCZ1	,(defn foo1 [{x :a y :b]}] (println x y))
17:15	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: ]>
17:16	SagiCZ1	,(defn foo1 [{x :a y :b}] (println x y))
17:16	clojurebot	#'sandbox/foo1
17:16	SagiCZ1	(foo1 {:a 5 :b 6})
17:16	SagiCZ1	,(foo1 {:a 5 :b 6})
17:16	clojurebot	5 6\n
17:19	SagiCZ1	,(defn foo1 [{x :a y :b :as a}] (println x y a))
17:19	clojurebot	#'sandbox/foo1
17:19	SagiCZ1	,(foo1 {:a 5 :b 6})
17:19	clojurebot	5 6 {:b 6, :a 5}\n
18:02	lavokad	hi, I don't find a place explaining why we can create a record using -> ?
18:02	llasram	lavokad: Example?
18:04	lavokad	(def algo (->MakeAlgo "lala" "huhu"))
18:05	llasram	lavokad: One thing `defrecord` does is define a var named `->RecordName`, which is a just a function which happens to start with the characters "->"
18:05	llasram	It has nothing to do with the `->` macro
18:05	llasram	It also defines `map->RecordName`
18:05	lavokad	ohh
18:08	lavokad	llasram: thanks
18:10	lavokad	llasram: where can I find this info? In docs nothing about this appears
18:14	lavokad	all right I found this in the source code :)
18:15	llasram	lavokad: It's mentioned in the last paragraph of the `defrecord` docstring
18:16	gfredericks	,(-> defrecord meta :doc (clojure.string/split #"\n\n") last)
18:16	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/defrecord, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
18:17	gfredericks	,(-> defrecord var meta :doc (clojure.string/split #"\n\n") last)
18:17	clojurebot	" Given (defrecord TypeName ...), two factory functions will be\n defined: ->TypeName, taking positional parameters for the fields,\n and map->TypeName, taking a map of keywords to field values."
18:17	llasram	gfredericks: Nice
18:17	llasram	(inc gfredericks)
18:17	lazybot	⇒ 88
18:24	lavokad	(doc defrecord)
18:24	clojurebot	"([name [& fields] & opts+specs]); (defrecord name [fields] options specs) Currently there are no options. Each spec consists of a protocol or interface name followed by zero or more method bodies: protocol-or-interface-or-Object (methodName [args] body)* Dynamically generates compiled bytecode for class with the given name, in a package with the same name as the current namespace, the given fields, and, optionall
18:25	gfredericks	I love that the first sentence is "Currently there are no options."
18:26	lavokad	why does the same doc info of defrecord appear on the web?
18:27	gfredericks	why not?
18:28	lavokad	i mean doesnt, sorry
18:28	gfredericks	$google "Currently there are no options"
18:28	lazybot	[ClojureDocs - clojure.core/reify] http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/1.2.0/clojure.core/reify
18:28	gfredericks	haha
18:28	justin_smith	"You're viewing version 1.2.0 of reify. The latest stable version of Clojure Core is 1.3.0."
18:28	justin_smith	lol
18:29	lavokad	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/defrecord is not equal to (doc defrecord) output
18:30	justin_smith	lavokad: that's the 1.3 version of the docs
18:30	justin_smith	&clojure-version
18:30	lazybot	⇒ {:major 1, :minor 4, :incremental 0, :qualifier nil}
18:30	justin_smith	,clojure-version
18:30	clojurebot	{:interim true, :major 1, :minor 7, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"}
18:30	TheMonarc	what are the maiun reasons one might use clojure over other langs?
18:31	lavokad	goshh
18:31	lavokad	sorry
18:31	lavokad	thanks
18:31	lavokad	:)
18:31	justin_smith	lavokad: it's sad that the clojuredocs site has so much google-juice, and is so out of date
18:33	llasram	TheMonarc: My reasons: it runs on the JVM and provides high developer productivity
18:33	gfredericks	TheMonarc: lets you write pure functions on generic data and then use them in real life
18:35	hyPiRion_	Efficient immutable data structures, and powerful functions to manipulate them.
18:36	justin_smith	a stable and predictable runtime that will be identical to your local development environment without needing all sorts of fashionable tooling
18:37	TheMonarc	example of "fashionable tooling" from another stack/lang?
18:38	justin_smith	docker, puppet, chef
18:38	justin_smith	various ways to try to automate the duplication of environments in production, that we typically just have no need for
18:38	TheMonarc	aren't those things orthogonal to language/VM choice
18:39	justin_smith	TheMonarc: I deploy servers that run if you have a jvm of 1.6 or newer
18:39	TheMonarc	BTW, i'm not a java developer either so excuse me if my questions are ignorant
18:39	TheMonarc	what if you have project that requires java version X
18:39	TheMonarc	and then another project that requires java version Y
18:39	justin_smith	TheMonarc: literally any machine meeting that spec suffices - you don't need much automation to make that work
18:39	TheMonarc	wouldn't someting like docker help w/ that?
18:39	llasram	justin_smith: I take issue with your terminology :-)
18:39	justin_smith	TheMonarc: java version x or newer is a trivial dep
18:40	TheMonarc	but X and Y are different
18:40	TheMonarc	wouldn't docker help switch back and forth between an environment where X is met, and one where Y is met?
18:41	justin_smith	TheMonarc: you can use the newer one - it really works that way
18:41	TheMonarc	justin, are you saying that specifically with Clojure
18:41	amalloy	java very very very rarely breaks backwards compatibility
18:41	TheMonarc	or just for Java in general
18:41	llasram	TheMonarc: Yeah, I can't really reflect justin_smith here. In my experience it's about the same as deploying software in other languages
18:41	llasram	I do think that the Java/Maven packaging and dependency systems ends up being somewhat better than almost everything else
18:42	llasram	But AFAICT packaging is something no-one ever gets completely right :-(
18:43	justin_smith	llasram: we may be trying to do different things. I have never ended up needing a setup more complex than "jvm v. x or newer" *(plus a reverse proxy, which every language needs)
18:43	justin_smith	for a webapp that is
18:44	TheMonarc	any recommendations on a noob to get started with clojure?
18:45	TheMonarc	like what should i do once I do "Hello World" in clojure?
18:45	justin_smith	~books
18:45	clojurebot	books is http://clojurebook.com/ http://joyofclojure.com/
18:46	bounb	TheMonarc: i am a clojure novice working thru clojurebook.com and i recommend it
18:46	justin_smith	TheMonarc: I also like aphyr's clojure from the ground up series http://aphyr.com/posts/301-clojure-from-the-ground-up-welcome
18:46	bounb	it will answer your question "why clojure" at the start too
18:46	devn	out of curiosity, does anyone here use slime still?
18:47	justin_smith	iirc amalloy does
18:47	devn	is it usable anymore?
18:47	amalloy	devn: works fine
18:47	devn	because, and i seriously mean no offense here, i think i preferred it way more
18:47	llasram	justin_smith: Mine isn't that much more complicated, but I find having a version-controlled, executable, repeatable description of the full deployment utterly invaluable
18:47	devn	amalloy: do you by any chance have a gist of the relevant config laying around?
18:47	amalloy	devn: {:plugins [[lein-swank "1.4.5"]]}
18:48	devn	amalloy: yeah, was referring to emacs
18:48	justin_smith	devn: there were some really cool things about slime that I missed. The complaint I seem to remember was that the underlying slime was a fast moving and often breaking target, but I don't see any major improvement on that in cider.
18:48	amalloy	what relevant config?
18:49	amalloy	justin_smith: lein-swank uses a four-year-old snapshot of slime, works fine. definitely not fast-moving
18:49	devn	amalloy: i remember back in the day having to set a bunch of things up to get everything working
18:50	amalloy	well
18:50	devn	amalloy: what do you have in your emacs config related to slime/swank? and you just mentioned the other question: what packages do you have? do you install slime from marmalade? slime-repl? slime-clj?
18:50	amalloy	you probably have to do some, but not actually that much. i don't really know; i've just copied around the files i installed four years ago
18:50	devn	im just looking for the: "this is the absolute minimum required to jump back to lein-swank" story
18:51	devn	amalloy: lol yeah, that's basically what im asking for -- would you mind gisting what you're using?
18:51	amalloy	devn: clone git@github.com:amalloy/clojure-mode and add it to your load-path, and then (require 'clojure-mode). i think it gets a version of slime from lein-swank
18:52	devn	amalloy: oh, and the more recent version of clojure mode brings in nrepl or cider or something?
18:52	amalloy	maybe
18:52	justin_smith	devn: I think the newer clojure mode is agnostic to the repl integration
18:52	justin_smith	devn: for example I require both clojure-mode and nrepl
18:52	amalloy	(setq clojure-swank-command "lein with-profile +swank jack-in %s") is good too, so that you can have {:swank {:dependencies ...}} in your project.clj
18:52	devn	i have a brand new computer sitting in front of me. i was carrying around emacs config for years and i recently blew it all away
18:53	justin_smith	(I still have not made the cider plunge)
18:53	devn	otherwise i wouldn't bother you
18:53	TheMonarc	oh and tell me about repl
18:53	TheMonarc	in a nutshell
18:53	TheMonarc	i keep reading people mentioning REPL
18:53	TheMonarc	in terms of haskell, scala, and clojure
18:53	devn	TheMonarc: yessir! the repl dude! it's awesome!
18:54	amalloy	devn: you can see my .emacs and .emacs.d at github.com/amalloy/dotfiles, but i don't promise that they're clean and easy to read
18:54	TheMonarc	but what exactly is it
18:54	TheMonarc	and why do people rave about it so much
18:54	justin_smith	TheMonarc: clojure is designed such that everything you can do in clojure (with very few exceptions) can be done in the interactive interpreter (the repl)
18:54	devn	TheMonarc: REPL stands for Read Eval Print Loop.
18:54	amalloy	between that, my clojure-mode, and .lein/profiles.clj, that's all i know i have set up. there may be some old packages lying around, and if so sorry
18:54	devn	amalloy: thanks
18:54	TheMonarc	ok so kind of like the scheme interpreter we used in school
18:54	TheMonarc	Dr. Scheme
18:54	devn	amalloy: that's no problem. thanks much
18:54	justin_smith	TheMonarc: right, that is also a repl
18:55	devn	TheMonarc: yeah, so im going to attempt to convey what i believe to be the "right" way to develop clojure
18:55	devn	but some people don't do this
18:55	justin_smith	but clojure's repl is technically not an interpreter, it compiles code as it goes
18:55	TheMonarc	k, i'm all ears
18:55	devn	TheMonarc: let's say you're in your editor, and you're in a file: src/hello_world/core.clj
18:56	amalloy	justin_smith: IMO that's an implementation details: as far as a user can observe, it's an interpreter
18:56	devn	so inside of there you have (ns hello-world.core (:require [clojure.string :as str]))
18:56	devn	and you have (defn hello [name] (println (format "Hello, %s" name)))
18:56	devn	you "connect" or "jack in" to your project
18:57	devn	and then you can evaluate (and re-evaluate) chunks inside of that file
18:57	devn	so first you might want to evaluate the ns declaration at the top. so you do that, and it returns nil. cool. then you evaluate your hello function
18:57	devn	but it turns out you didn't quite like it, so you change some stuff inside of it, and evaluate it again from your editor
18:58	TheMonarc	ok that sounds pretty cool
18:58	devn	it's very playgroundish
18:58	TheMonarc	one more question for now
18:58	TheMonarc	any IDE's or editors recommended for use with Clojure?
18:58	devn	ive seen people doing clojure who dont really use the REPL to their advantage
18:58	devn	instead they run the whole program every time
18:59	justin_smith	my development is more directly repl-centric, where I experiment with code in the user ns in the repl until I have the basic structure, then adapt that into my individual namespace
18:59	devn	that's backwards in clojure IMO
18:59	bounb	devn: how does one 'connect' or 'jack in'
18:59	devn	bounb: what editor are you using?
18:59	bounb	vim
18:59	TheMonarc	devn, is there an article that describes how you use the REPL?
18:59	squidz	devn: clojure or clojurescript?
18:59	justin_smith	bounb: you can use fireplace for connecting vim to a repl
18:59	devn	TheMonarc: no, but i could show you if you want to do a google hangout
18:59	devn	squidz: clojure
19:00	TheMonarc	i'd like to get back to it and make sure i'm getting the most out of the REPL once i get through some hello world and other basic/intro stuff
19:00	bounb	justin_smith: nice, thx
19:00	TheMonarc	@devn, ah, i'm not at the point where i'm ready to do that yet
19:00	devn	clojurescript is harder
19:00	devn	but you can stil use the REPL
19:00	devn	bounb: https://github.com/tpope/vim-fireplace
19:00	bounb	tpope ✓
19:00	amalloy	TheMonarc: whatever editor you're using probably has reasonable clojure support. but you might just do the primitive copy/paste from your editor to your repl for a while; it's not critical to get editor support set up until you're familiar with the language and a repl
19:00	devn	"There's a REPL in fireplace, but you probably wouldn't have noticed if I hadn't told you. Such is the way with fireplace.vim. By the way, this plugin is for Clojure.
19:00	devn	:)
19:00	justin_smith	TheMonarc: also, regarding your "what are good reasons to use clojure" survey question, now I am wondering what the bad reasons to use clojure are.
19:00	bounb	devn: thx
19:01	TheMonarc	because hipster
19:01	bounb	not at all
19:01	bounb	TheMonarc: what is your programming backgroun
19:01	bounb	d
19:02	TheMonarc	or do you mean what are the bad use cases for Clojure?
19:02	devn	lighttable has a really great setup by default
19:02	devn	you should try it out
19:02	TheMonarc	i code in C#
19:02	TheMonarc	i hate my current job
19:02	devn	TheMonarc: lol. it's going to be ok!
19:02	devn	you're here. that's all that matters. :)
19:02	TheMonarc	hahah
19:02	TheMonarc	yeah planning on branching out with various langs
19:03	TheMonarc	right now exploring scala and clojure
19:03	devn	clojure is a good train to get on. scala is...
19:03	devn	scala is...
19:03	TheMonarc	i figure i will touch on the JVM langs all together
19:03	devn	poorly designed.
19:03	bounb	it's not directly about clojure and the question "why clojure" is answered more succinctly in clojurebook.com but i think everyone (TheMonarc) should watch this great talk http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Are-We-There-Yet-Rich-Hickey
19:03	devn	amen bounb
19:03	bounb	just watched it earlier and was pretty blown away
19:03	TheMonarc	thanks for that recommendation
19:03	TheMonarc	adding it to my list
19:03	devn	that is THE talk. everyone needs to watch that talk. i think i watched it a dozen times when i first started getting into clojure
19:04	TheMonarc	spending this entire weekend watching programming vids and doing tutorials
19:04	devn	seriously TheMonarc -- sit down and watch it. it explains a lot of the Why?
19:04	bounb	<- starting to get into clojure ;)
19:04	bounb	yeah it's one of the best programming talks ive seen tbh, very... philosophically complete
19:05	devn	Rich's talks are all fantastic. The one post I ever wrote for the changelog: http://thechangelog.com/rich-hickeys-greatest-hits/
19:05	devn	turned out to be the hottest post of the year and then i never wrote another
19:05	devn	im a terrible blogger.
19:05	TheMonarc	me too
19:05	bounb	haha nice yeah i saw this list earlier ill check out the rest!
19:05	TheMonarc	i have more blog entries in my drafts folder
19:05	TheMonarc	than i have actual publish posts
19:06	TheMonarc	do you guys use clojure at work?
19:06	devn	yes
19:06	TheMonarc	one of the reasons i'm gravitating towards clojure/scala
19:07	TheMonarc	and correct me if this impression si wrong
19:07	devn	almost 100% clojure, maybe 2% nodejs and ruby which will be rewritten soonish
19:07	TheMonarc	but ideally i'd get a job where those langs are being used in production apps
19:07	TheMonarc	and i feel like the caliber of developer working with those langs
19:07	TheMonarc	is going to be much higher than the C# dev's i interact with every day
19:07	TheMonarc	(there are some really good C# developers out there, but none of them are in the network of people i come across in my day job)
19:07	devn	TheMonarc: i know that i dont need to say it, but the following is just my opinion: dont waste your time with scala
19:08	devn	scala is a terrible language IMO
19:08	TheMonarc	haha
19:08	TheMonarc	well for now i'm at least going to expose myself to it
19:08	TheMonarc	i want to keep an open mind
19:08	devn	yeah, totaly fair
19:08	Wild_Cat	TheMonarc: it's kind of the same reasoning as that behind choosing to work in Python. In many cases, it's true
19:08	Wild_Cat	(although with Python it's becoming less so these days as it enters the mainstream)
19:09	devn	i dont know a ton about scala, but i know plenty to know that there's no way i'd ever want to seriously work with
19:09	TheMonarc	wait so what's so bad about scala?
19:09	devn	haha, oh gosh
19:09	Wild_Cat	because nobody just knows Clojure because it's what they learned at uni and/or their first job and couldn't be bothered to try something else
19:09	TheMonarc	even when i went onto #scala, i asked people if they used it at work and one guy went off on a rant about how much scala was an "illusion"
19:09	Wild_Cat	(whereas you just have to kick a trash can a couple times and J2EE/PHP developers fall out)
19:10	TheMonarc	which was ironic given that i was in the #scala channel
19:10	devn	TheMonarc: here's an example of the crazy shit they've done... i was talking with a JVM developer who told me that Scala's implementation of Value Classes causes 6^9 class files to be generated
19:10	devn	and that the reason why SBT (build tool) is so slow is because of I/O
19:10	TheMonarc	wow
19:10	Wild_Cat	o.O
19:11	bounb	lol...
19:11	devn	and worse
19:11	devn	their value class implementation still doesn't really solve the deeper problem on the JVM
19:11	devn	it doesn't really add them
19:11	devn	it's like a thin veneer of value classes
19:12	devn	but anyway, more evidence that scala is a bummer: gah, trying to find the video
19:13	devn	basically one of the co-founders of typesafe and a massive contributor to Scala. like 900+ closed issues. 500 issues filed.
19:13	Wild_Cat	the damning evidence against Scala is that I've heard Haskell developers complain that Scala's type system is scary.
19:13	devn	decided that scala is horribly broken
19:13	devn	and he left typesafe
19:13	bounb	u guys fans of haskell?
19:14	bounb	ive started learning it... a few times haha
19:14	devn	sure, im a fan. there's tons to learn in haskell land.
19:14	devn	i find the clojure crew a much more pragmatic bunch
19:14	TheMonarc	any of you tried F#?
19:15	devn	i also find the people in the clojure community to be a lot more helpful, friendly, nice overall, less prone to pissing contests
19:15	Wild_Cat	bounb: it's a fantastically elegant language, with tons of excellent ideas. No language I've ever touched has changed the way I think about programming in general as Haskell.
19:15	bounb	:)
19:15	Wild_Cat	nonetheless, I've never used it in a real project and probably never will.
19:15	bounb	i see yeah
19:15	TheMonarc	the guy that writes the Clojure Gazette worked in haskell for a couple of years
19:15	Wild_Cat	I find Clojure far more pragmatic, and on the "smart type system" side of the spectrum it's actually Rust I want to learn.
19:15	devn	yeah, same her
19:16	devn	here*
19:16	TheMonarc	he didn't seem that thrilled by using Haskell
19:16	Wild_Cat	(as for my day job, Python all day every day with some C++ here and there)
19:16	devn	devops?
19:16	bounb	python is where i'm comfortable but it's boring
19:16	Wild_Cat	devn: no, backend for game development.
19:17	devn	python is a decent language. i like python. the `python -c "import this"` Zen of Python matches pretty well with Clojure's general philosophy
19:17	TheMonarc	do you have any personal strategies for learning new langs
19:17	Wild_Cat	(previously casual Facebook games in the 500K DAU range, now AAA)
19:17	TheMonarc	like do you just work on it when you get a chance and depend on your personal drive to get you to do it
19:17	amalloy	TheMonarc: one i've heard recommended is to have a "pet project", which you implement in each new language you want to learn
19:17	devn	TheMonarc: yeah, id do some problems on project euler and 4clojure
19:17	TheMonarc	or do you force yourself to work a certain # of hours per day or week or whatever
19:17	Wild_Cat	TheMonarc: find something you want to do, and implement it in the language you want to learn rather than in the one you know.
19:17	amalloy	then you're familiar with the problem space enough that you can focus on what's new about the language
19:18	TheMonarc	amalloy, interesting, i've been thinking of doing exactly that
19:18	Wild_Cat	even better if you can do it at work, but don't go too exotic in that case. People will hate you when they need to maintain your app written in Coq.
19:18	TheMonarc	in my head i call it my "Rosetta Stone Project"
19:18	TheMonarc	that i would implement in each lang
19:18	devn	but also what Wild_Cat said -- after you do a couple of basic things, pick something that's more like a project
19:18	TheMonarc	wild_cat, lol, yeah
19:18	devn	like writing an IRC bot or building a static site generator or a blog or something
19:18	TheMonarc	i know better than to burden coworkers with exotic stuff
19:19	devn	TheMonarc: i dont want to tell you i know for a fact what you're going through, but i was in what sounds like a similar position about 7 years ago
19:19	Wild_Cat	for example, the current micro-project I'm working on at work is something I'm currently writing in Python with Gevent and Pyramid (and Redis, which makes me learn more Redis and Redis is awesome), but I'll probably try a Rust rewrite at some point.
19:19	devn	i finally just quit with no plans
19:19	amalloy	TheMonarc: when i was still newish to clojure, i was working in php; i found it useful to sketch out in clojure the new stuff i needed to write in php, because the repl speeds things up so much. it probably helped me learn both languages
19:19	Wild_Cat	(e.g. if performance becomes a true issue, which I doubt it will)
19:20	TheMonarc	so i'll just need to decide on a project
19:20	devn	amalloy: yeah, that's a good point. i was doing a lot of ruby around the time i picked up clojure. i found that building up a table of \| clojure function \| ruby method \| was helpful
19:20	Wild_Cat	also, I find DBs are as important to learn as languages.
19:21	devn	i also found that it made my ruby code a lot better
19:21	Wild_Cat	learn Mongo, learn Redis, learn a SQL database.
19:21	TheMonarc	yup
19:21	TheMonarc	i have a big ass list of stuff to learn
19:21	devn	booooo mongo :D
19:21	TheMonarc	rabbitmq is high up there
19:21	devn	postgres, rabbitmq
19:21	amalloy	TheMonarc: you could write a scheme interpreter. it's small enough, and i think you said you learned scheme at school
19:21	TheMonarc	i want to introduce it at work, which is stupid because we already have it one one project at work
19:21	amalloy	but of course if that doesn't interest you, do something else
19:21	TheMonarc	but the douchebag architect hides it from everyone
19:22	TheMonarc	literally, won't let anyone use it, so it's just sitting there being used by a single process, which kind of defeats the point
19:22	devn	TheMonarc: one thing i found really interesting when i came to clojure was metadata, and there are some fun exploratory projects you can do there
19:22	gfredericks	clojurebot: rabbitmq is hidden from everyone by the douchebag architect
19:22	clojurebot	In Ordnung
19:22	devn	,(map (comp meta second) (ns-publics 'clojure.core))
19:22	clojurebot	({:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name primitives-classnames, :file "clojure/core_print.clj", :column 1, :line 315} {:added "1.0", :ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name +', :file "clojure/core.clj", :inline-arities #<core$_GT_1_QMARK_ clojure.core$_GT_1_QMARK_@180023a>, ...} {:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name decimal?, :added "1.0", :file "clojure/core.clj", :static true, ...} {:ns #<Namespace c...
19:22	Wild_Cat	devn: I really don't get the Mongo hate. It works.
19:23	devn	Wild_Cat: for small problems, yes
19:23	Wild_Cat	heck, I could spew way more hate on MySQL than on Mongo, because I've had real bad issues with the former.
19:23	TheMonarc	i prototyped a project in mongo
19:23	p_l	Wild_Cat: Well... you're comparing similar quality there
19:23	TheMonarc	and it was pretty easy and nice to use
19:23	Wild_Cat	devn: my previous company's biggest game uses Mongo and it's a breeze.
19:23	TheMonarc	but any documentDB would have been just as good in my case
19:24	p_l	TheMonarc: that's about main pros of Mongo I've ever seen have substance...
19:24	TheMonarc	a lot of the complaints about mongo i've seen have been people's own fault of using a documentdb when they really needed something else
19:24	devn	my experience has been: for quick things where i dont want to configure stuff and just start using a store, mongo is nice.
19:25	devn	once you start getting to the point of having a mongo cluster
19:25	devn	all hell begins to break loose
19:26	TheMonarc	yeah i'd be wary of any scenario that needed a cluster
19:26	TheMonarc	sharded at least
19:26	TheMonarc	if it was just replicated i guess that'd be fine
19:26	p_l	it's the same code and behaviour...
19:26	TheMonarc	i'd ha ve to do research before committing to mongo for something that needed a cluster though
19:26	devn	well, it's not a problem for other document stores
19:27	devn	ive heard good things about couch
19:27	p_l	(and some people caught Mongo dropping writes at load, which lead to funny things)
19:28	TheMonarc	devn, you mentione dyou use clojure at work
19:28	TheMonarc	what kind of stuff? web app(s)?
19:28	devn	yeah
19:29	devn	services and apps
19:29	TheMonarc	cool
19:29	devn	lots of clojurescript too
19:29	TheMonarc	nice
19:29	TheMonarc	do you do SOA/microservices?
19:29	Wild_Cat	fun fact, said game actually uses a Mongo cluster
19:30	Wild_Cat	it works trivially because players are essentially isolated from each other, which means we do massive numbers of extremely simple DB operations.
19:31	devn	TheMonarc: some "microservices" sure. i suppose it'd also be fair to just call them "appropriately sized services"
19:31	TheMonarc	haha
19:31	TheMonarc	yeah i've been reading about it the past week, and there doesn't seem to be a real definition
19:31	devn	everything is a microservice when you compare them to the services of old
19:31	TheMonarc	other than that they are "small"
19:31	TheMonarc	i never got into SOA, so i don't know if this distinction is correct
19:32	TheMonarc	but it seems when people talk about microservices
19:32	TheMonarc	there is also tendency to have all these services be called directly from an edge/front end system
19:32	Wild_Cat	TheMonarc: I think what people mean by "microservices" is actually "not SOAP. Anything but SOAP. Oh god, never again SOAP."
19:32	devn	TheMonarc: there are a lot of opinions, but just like anything else -- there are tradeoffs.
19:32	TheMonarc	i keep wondering how are you not running into latency issues
19:32	TheMonarc	timeouts etc
19:33	TheMonarc	was that also an issue with SOA?
19:33	devn	microservices are great until you need to start coordinating sweeping changes across 10s of them
19:33	devn	but maybe you already thought that through ahead of time and so it's not a big deal
19:33	TheMonarc	@wild_cat LOL
19:34	devn	microservices make a lot of sense at first glance i think. they forcefully decouple code. they potentially allow you to scale out critical services cheaper because you can just get lots of small EC2 instances instead of needing monolithic server horsepower
19:35	devn	but once you have 100 EC2 instances for some service, you need to coordinate them
19:35	TheMonarc	100 EC2 instances...
19:35	Wild_Cat	microservices make a lot of sense architecturally when you decide to write your app as something that needs to easily scale up by spinning up new VMs in a cloud somewhere.
19:36	TheMonarc	seems like a lot
19:36	devn	im not being down on them. i think it's a great idea. it's not really a new idea either.
19:36	Wild_Cat	...and once you start needing them to coordinate somehow, you need to involve a message queue or something similar.
19:36	devn	TheMonarc: heh, that's not much
19:36	Wild_Cat	because any other approach leads to madness.
19:36	TheMonarc	wildcat
19:37	TheMonarc	give an example of when you need to "coordinate"
19:37	TheMonarc	the instances
19:37	TheMonarc	do you mean put a piece of async work into a queue
19:37	Wild_Cat	most of the time, yes
19:37	TheMonarc	for a separate service to process?
19:37	devn	"we're overloading another service. everyone who is a service like me, slow down!"
19:38	TheMonarc	ah ok
19:38	TheMonarc	so a circuit breaker across all instances of Service A
19:38	TheMonarc	so they don't overload service B
19:38	devn	it's a simple example sure
19:39	devn	here's the thing. let's say you have 50 microservices. and some of those services talk to other services, who talk to other services
19:39	TheMonarc	i never had to implement something like that
19:39	devn	draw the graph
19:39	TheMonarc	but i imagined if i did, my naive approach would be to use a reddis cache or something to store state that Service A instances would use
19:39	devn	now tell me: do you think it will be more difficult to make changes?
19:39	TheMonarc	rather than a queue
19:40	TheMonarc	devn, yeah it seems like it'd be difficult to make changes
19:40	devn	if you change service A, and service B uses service A through Service C, and Service C uses Service B, and Service D uses B, and so on...
19:40	devn	you need to have that story figured out early on
19:40	TheMonarc	my thought on that
19:40	TheMonarc	was you could version the services
19:40	TheMonarc	so at the bottom of the graph (the nodes that everything else depends on), you deploy two versions side by side
19:41	TheMonarc	keep doing that "up" the graph till new stuff is all deployed
19:41	TheMonarc	then retire the old versions
19:41	devn	great, but now what does it take for you to do a release?
19:41	TheMonarc	probably a lot of problems with that approach though
19:41	devn	takes you forever now to get a deploy out
19:41	TheMonarc	so how do you sole that
19:42	devn	carefully ;)
19:42	devn	there are lots of things you could do, right?
19:43	devn	you could make logical groups of services which will depend on nothing but a single interface to another group of services
19:43	devn	sort of like organs in the body
19:44	devn	you could do as you're saying and actually keep legacy services online and transition them out
19:45	TheMonarc	and you should only have to do the side-by-side-and-then-transition-out thing when a service has a breaking change right?
19:45	devn	you could send your version over the wire to other services to tell them: "Hey! I'm newer than you!"
19:45	devn	or "I'm older!" so you can get the response you expect
19:46	devn	TheMonarc: well this is the thing, and this is why simulation testing is important
19:46	devn	if you have a really complex graph of microservices
19:46	devn	you need to be able to replay production traffic and simulate traffic so you can find out who talks to who
19:46	devn	bcause it changes often
19:48	devn	and make sure that everyone knows how to live in the "my microservice just got a tiny version bump and now everyone has to deal with it" world
19:48	joobus	does anyone here use the nginx-clojure module?
19:49	devn	i haven't
19:49	Wild_Cat	devn: as someone who's currently living in the "we refuse to upgrade from a 4-year-old version of MySQL that you can crash with a very simple query" world, that world you describe is tempting.
19:49	devn	Wild_Cat: it comes with its own set of problems though, yknow?
19:49	devn	the grass is always greener.
19:49	Wild_Cat	indeed.
19:50	devn	RAPID DEPLOY! GO GO GO! ... Oh wait, we need to manage this now...
19:50	devn	vs 4 years of QA
19:50	joobus	i've been reading the install tutorial but it's written in broken english...
19:50	devn	joobus: nginx is a product of russia after all :)
19:50	Wild_Cat	yeah, it's a tradeoff of "crap, it's broken!" vs "crap, it's still not fixed!"
19:50	devn	Wild_Cat: i prefer the middle
19:51	Wild_Cat	hence 'tradeoff' ;)
19:51	devn	"it's still not fixed because we will all have to coordinate" and "crap it's broken, but we knew about it when <1% of traffic was being passed through the new production environment"
19:52	justin_smith	devn: is there a SO like site for that kind of architecture / system design stuff (and better yet, also intersecting with the programming and implementation side)
19:52	TheMonarc	yeah i wish i had to deal with this kind of problem at work
19:52	joobus	you guys have time to do qa?!?! my company does QA if we have time...
19:52	devn	justin_smith: i dont really know much about the SO ecosystem
19:52	amalloy	justin_smith: probably serverfault
19:52	devn	joobus: QA has the word "assurance" in it, which makes it kind of a funny term to begin with
19:53	devn	"intended to give confidence"
19:53	justin_smith	amalloy: I thought that was more for administrators than designers - but maybe that crosses over more than I thought
19:53	TheMonarc	yeah serverfault is for like "how do i configure IIS to enable gzip compression" type questions
19:53	devn	QA means a lot of different things to a lot of different people
19:54	amalloy	programmers and SO probably fit too; between the three of them you should be able to ask most any question about this kind of stuff. but i haven't really tried
19:54	devn	"it isn't on fire." vs "i noticed that when we give this 2x the load we normally have in production it falls over."
19:54	devn	anyone have any experience with CQRS?
19:55	joobus	my comp uses python, so we don't see the error until someone hits that path.
19:55	TheMonarc	none of the microservices blog posts/articles i've read have really gone into any detail about how they handle the versioning scenarios that devn mentions
19:56	devn	that's because it's kind of buzzwordy IMO
19:56	TheMonarc	is that because the options are all messy/bad and no one wants to acknowledge it?
19:56	devn	i've seen a couple of posts (would have to dig them up from history)
19:56	devn	about "well, we tried, and we sort of got it right... but..."
19:57	devn	well some of it is kind of just...idk, trendy.
19:58	TheMonarc	currently have this article about CQRS in my open browser tabs: http://www.udidahan.com/2009/12/09/clarified-cqrs/
19:58	TheMonarc	but i haven't done CQRS
20:03	devn_	go strmpnk___
20:03	devn_	whoops
20:03	joobus	who here uses clojure professionally?
20:04	justin_smith	I do
20:05	joobus	do you work for a startup?
20:05	joobus	just wondering how much penetration clojure is getting in the "real world"
20:05	devn	i use clojure at work
20:06	devn	joobus: ive been around this community since pre 1.0 days and it is growing big time
20:06	justin_smith	joobus: not a startup - I have a contract with a digital agency supporting some sites I developed for them. Previously was salaried doing clojure for web site backends.
20:06	devn	i mean, the fact that wal mart labs and staples labs were at clojure west should tell you something
20:06	joobus	I've been tinkering for about a month now
20:07	devn	joobus: http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=ruby%2Cjava%2Cscala%2Cclojure&relative=1&relative=1
20:08	TheMonarc	http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=scala%2Cclojure&l=
20:09	devn	if you're just looking for a job with a different JVM language, Scala is a choice
20:09	devn	if you want to be a happy human being who enjoys their work, clojure
20:09	devn	;)
20:10	TEttinger	joobus, clojure is very startup-friendly, since an experienced dev can get an app up and running with a good deal less code than, say, Java. but there's also the advantage of being able to interop with existing Java codebases which is great for established companies that use Java too. I'm speaking in generalities and of course every company will have different needs, but clojure's strengths are aimed at being a business-friendly lisp
20:10	TheMonarc	what do you do for web/service frameworks with clojre
20:10	devn	joobus: TheMonarc: https://github.com/Dobiasd/programming-language-subreddits-and-their-choice-of-words
20:10	TheMonarc	do people use clojure specific frameworks
20:11	joobus	I currently don't have a JVM language in my toolset, nor a functional lang. I began looking into clojure on the recommendation of a friend using clojure at a startup
20:11	devn	https://github.com/Dobiasd/programming-language-subreddits-and-their-choice-of-words/raw/master/img/happy.png
20:11	TheMonarc	or do you use Spring/Dropwizard etc
20:11	TheMonarc	with clojure?
20:11	devn	TheMonarc: most people don't use "frameworks"
20:11	devn	the idea in clojure is -- libraries > frameworks
20:11	devn	compose your libraries and you can have your own framework
20:11	TheMonarc	@devn, nice
20:11	devn	there are some pretty common pieces in that stack though
20:12	devn	compojure and ring are ubiquitous
20:12	justin_smith	that said, I did help develop a big old clojure framework, even comes with a built in cms where you can create new data models for the site, or add new data, in web forms
20:12	devn	yeah, there's room for both
20:12	devn	but /historically/, the community has had an opinion on libraries instead of frameworks
20:13	justin_smith	definitely
20:13	joobus	what is everyone's opinion of datomic/ do most here stick to the SQLs with clojure?
20:13	devn	and like justin_smith: that said, ain't nothin wrong with a framework now and again
20:13	devn	joobus: if you need datomic use it. if you dont know why you need it, figure that out first.
20:14	justin_smith	devn: and how does one know they need datomic?
20:14	devn	by understanding what it is :)
20:14	devn	comparing it to relational DBs, document stores, k/v stores, etc.
20:15	objectiveous	Is there a simple way to inspect deftypes in order to understand what modifiers and annotations have been applied?
20:15	bbloom	,09
20:16	clojurebot	#<NumberFormatException java.lang.NumberFormatException: Invalid number: 09>
20:16	bbloom	,0644
20:16	clojurebot	420
20:16	devn	,08
20:16	clojurebot	#<NumberFormatException java.lang.NumberFormatException: Invalid number: 08>
20:16	devn	,07
20:16	clojurebot	7
20:16	justin_smith	objectiveous: aren't annotations a javac thing? deftype does not use javac
20:16	bbloom	weeee leading zeros equal octal
20:16	devn	bbloom: haha, something i learned doing a project euler problem many moons ago
20:16	devn	did you just run into it?
20:17	bbloom	yeah, i was tuning a parameter, deleted a leading 1, and the results just seemed... wrong
20:17	devn	,(Integer/parseInt "09")
20:17	clojurebot	9
20:17	devn	bbloom: heh yeah
20:17	TheMonarc	"Never break their consumers. We agreed a standard early on to have a version number in resource paths (e.g. /1.x/products/12345/), such that if there is a need for a breaking change, a new version can be deployed side-by-side and get adopted by upstream consumers. Even though we still keep this capability, we haven’t needed to use it for years."
20:17	justin_smith	objectiveous: that said, you can look at the interfaces some obejct implements
20:17	TheMonarc	from here: http://dev.mixrad.io/blog/2014/08/22/MixRadio-Architecture-Overview/
20:17	justin_smith	,(-> [] clojure.reflect/reflect :bases)
20:17	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.reflect, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
20:18	justin_smith	,(require 'clojure.reflect)
20:18	clojurebot	nil
20:18	justin_smith	,(-> [] clojure.reflect/reflect :bases)
20:18	clojurebot	#{clojure.lang.APersistentVector clojure.lang.IObj clojure.lang.IEditableCollection}
20:18	devn	clojure.reflect is so nice to have
20:18	justin_smith	indeed it is
20:18	objectiveous	justin_smith, I'm not sure to what degree they are supported but I did see an email on the list describing the feature. Let me check...
20:19	devn	,(->> (clojure.reflect/reflect []) :members (map (comp str :name)) sort)
20:19	clojurebot	("EMPTY" "EMPTY_NODE" "NOEDIT" "_meta" "access$000" ...)
20:20	justin_smith	objectiveous: annotations are not a thing that exists on the jvm - they are a concept in the javac compiler. Most Clojure code, and all deftypes, do not go through the javac compiler.
20:20	devn	objectiveous: like extenders?
20:22	objectiveous	justin_smith, this is what got headed down this train of thought. https://gist.github.com/richhickey/377213
20:22	justin_smith	objectiveous: oh I may have to eat my words here
20:22	justin_smith	my bad, sorry for the misinformation
20:23	justin_smith	that gist shows how to get the annotations, which is exactly what you were asking
20:23	objectiveous	justin_smith, ;-) But please don't stop helping me! I'm seriously in over my head. lol
20:23	devn	https://gist.github.com/richhickey/b5aefa622180681e1c81
20:24	objectiveous	justin_smith, basically I'm trying to work with a clojure library that wraps the orientdb client java library.
20:25	objectiveous	It does a load of javassit jazz and doesn't like my typedef as it's Final.
20:25	llasram	objectiveous: Do you have a link to documentation about what you're trying to do with annotations?
20:26	justin_smith	objectiveous: the class being final, or the fields on the object being final? I readily believe the latter, but that can be fixed with deftype
20:26	objectiveous	llasram, checking...
20:26	justin_smith	to the degree that making fields mutible is fixing anything
20:26	devn	heh, insane: https://github.com/ztellman/cambrian-collections/blob/master/generate/cambrian_collections/vector.clj
20:26	devn	generate that java class with clojure!
20:27	llasram	objectiveous: My experience is that many Java systems which use annotations at runtime via reflection need other things which you can't do with deftype, like have zero-argument constructors with annotations on the constructor
20:27	objectiveous	justin_smith, I've already marked the fields so I believe the problem is with Class itself.
20:27	devn	you could proxy, no?
20:29	devn	maybe im missing the point
20:29	devn	but there's also this: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/test/clojure/test_clojure/genclass/examples.clj#L32
20:29	objectiveous	llasram, I suspect you're right and wonder what the most clojuresque approach would be?
20:30	devn	bah nevermind, i see what you mean now
20:31	llasram	objectiveous: My experience is that Java is a pretty strong DSL for implementing Java classes
20:31	bbloom	llasram: heh.
20:32	llasram	objectiveous: You can implement a tiny veneer Java class with exactly the interface (in the abstract sense), which then uses the Clojure Java API to load and run Clojure code for the actual implementation
20:33	llasram	objectiveous: Here's a lightening talk rhickey gave describing the approach: https://skillsmatter.com/skillscasts/3864-impromptu-rich-hickey-lightning-talk
20:34	objectiveous	I think maybe I'm starting to see the light. I'm building up a rather large information model and orientdb allows me to interact with that model as Documents or Classes. I liked the idea of having types but maybe I should rethink this a little, if I want to live in clojure land.
20:34	objectiveous	llasram, cheers!
20:34	devn	hrm, llasram this looks like annotations on 0 argument constructors? https://github.com/pallet/clojure-maven
20:35	llasram	devn: Where?
20:35	devn	ugh, im tired or something. i think im leading you down the wrong path
20:35	llasram	objectiveous: Good luck!
20:35	devn	sorry dude
20:36	llasram	~guards
20:36	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
20:36	devn	lol
20:37	objectiveous	Thanks, folks. It's great to know there's a group of friendlies around to help a brother out, as they say.
20:50	justin_smith	objectiveous: bonus, today I learned more about how annotations are actually implemented
20:57	lavokad	im geting file not exception when doing this
20:57	lavokad	(GET "/" [] (println (slurp "/resources/html/header.html"))))
20:57	lavokad	(GET "/" [] (println (slurp "/resources/html/header.html"))))
20:57	lavokad	(GET "/" [] (println (slurp "/resources/html/header.html"))))
20:57	lavokad	(GET "/" [] (println (slurp "/resources/html/header.html"))))
20:57	lavokad	(GET "/" [] (println (slurp "/resources/html/header.html"))))
20:57	lavokad	(GET "/" [] (println (slurp "/resources/html/header.html"))))
20:57	lavokad	(GET "/" [] (println (slurp "/resources/html/header.html"))))
20:58	justin_smith	lavokad: resources is on your path
20:58	justin_smith	and /resources probably does not exist
20:59	justin_smith	also, if you want your code to work from an uberjar, change it to (slurp (io/resource "html/header.html"))
20:59	lavokad	im geting file not exception when doing this
20:59	lavokad	clear
20:59	lavokad	wtf
20:59	lavokad	?
20:59	justin_smith	lavokad: because /resources is not the same as resources
20:59	lavokad	damn it..
20:59	justin_smith	(slurp "resources/html/header.html")
20:59	justin_smith	but like I said, better to switch to io/resource and take out the resources/ part of the path, while you are at it
21:00	lavokad	sorry something broke and didnt see what i was writing
21:00	lavokad	justin_smith: sorry, then in which dir am I when i do (GET "/" [] (println (slurp "/resources/html/header.html"))))
21:00	lavokad	?
21:01	justin_smith	lavokad: you are likely in your project dir
21:01	justin_smith	but as I said multiple times, /resources/html/header.html is not the same as resources/html/header.html
21:01	justin_smith	you want the latter
21:01	justin_smith	the extra / means "look for this on the top level of my filesystem, ignoring my current directory"
21:03	lavokad	oh no
21:03	lavokad	i'm blind
21:03	lavokad	:D
21:04	lavokad	thank you!
21:30	xeqi	anyone have a library for watching a file for changes?
21:31	justin_smith	there are a few. You can also create a watcher object via interop with nio (jvm 7+)
21:31	justin_smith	https://github.com/ibdknox/watchtower this one looks straightforward
21:32	justin_smith	but it uses polling, nio can use much more efficient OS level notifications (push from the system when the file is changed)
21:33	justin_smith	this one uses the proper java 1.7+ watcher api https://github.com/derekchiang/Clojure-Watch
21:36	justin_smith	there is also nio.file, we have a unit test on that lib which shows a lower level interop. https://github.com/ToBeReplaced/nio.file/blob/master/test/org/tobereplaced/nio/file_test.clj#L111
21:36	xeqi	yeah, I was glancing at Clojure-Watch but don't see a stop-watch
21:36	xeqi	but I can use it as a base
21:37	justin_smith	the nio.file one is based on a watch-service object you create, which you can turn off, more or less
21:37	justin_smith	also you can just cancel the thread that takes events from that watcher
21:38	justin_smith	(assuming you are doing the reasonable thing and putting watching in its own thread)
22:10	TheMonarc	anyone tried http://clojurekoans.com/ ?
22:14	joobus	trying it now :)
22:15	amalloy	TheMonarc: clojure koans is probably fine, but for a flavor of the same thing with less setup you could try 4clojure.com
22:24	joobus	koans seems ok, solved a few just now
22:24	joobus	then i got stuck
22:34	mynomoto	clojurescriptkoans.com are good too. I don't remember if there is anything clojurescript specific there.
22:37	joobus	does anyone here use vim-fireplace?
22:41	mynomoto	anyone?
22:41	clojurebot	anyone is anybody
22:42	jgdavey_	joobus: I do
22:44	joobus	i guess you would recommend it then?
22:44	joobus	i'm kind of a clojure noob at the moment
22:45	jgdavey_	If you're a vim user, definitely
22:45	joobus	i tried vim-fugitive (for git) but just use command line git instead
22:45	joobus	didn't know if it was worth it
22:46	jgdavey_	I put together a screencast on using vim-fireplace a couple months back. It may be useful for the basics: https://vimeo.com/98052766
22:46	mynomoto	joobus: http://clojure-doc.org/articles/tutorials/vim_fireplace.html is a good place to start.
22:47	joobus	thank you
22:47	joobus	jgdavey_: i think i've run across your name in other searches as well
22:48	joobus	were you at clojure west?
22:48	jgdavey_	I wasn't, unfortunately.
22:53	joobus	has anyone used lein fruit and lein droid? I'm wondering if it is possible to share common code between the two to deploy the same app to both platforms.
23:18	danielcompton	I just got a Kinesis advantage, man it's brutal on my typing
23:18	danielcompton	showing up 10 years of shoddy muscle
23:18	danielcompton	memory from typing badly
23:20	joobus	danielc: i looked at those but went with the microsoft natural whatver for $20
23:20	joobus	do you like the keyboard?
23:21	danielcompton	joobus: still undecided. I think it needs a while to really give it a good test. It feels 'natural' on my hands which is good I guess.
23:22	danielcompton	It uses thumbs way more so now i have sore thumbs instead of sore pinkies
23:22	joobus	what did you use before?
23:23	danielcompton	Apple wireless keyboard
23:23	danielcompton	I'm also keen to try technomancy 's
23:23	danielcompton	Atreus
23:23	joobus	i personally have a cast on my right hand at the moment so i use 1 hand and a "typing pencil" in my other. it sucks.
23:23	danielcompton	adyn ergodox, and a keyboard.io
23:23	joobus	i hate the apple keyboards
23:24	danielcompton	joobus: that would be dumb. Are there one handed keyboard layouts?
23:24	joobus	no, the cast hopefully comes off in a week
23:25	Jaood	joobus: the microsoft natural is great :)
23:25	joobus	Jaood: i agree, best bang for the buck
23:25	maravillas	the ms natural 4000 feels like mush
23:26	joobus	maravillas: are you a mechanical keyboard user? or what?
23:26	maravillas	keys, that is
23:26	Jaood	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Natural_keyboard#mediaviewer/File:MS_Natural_Keyboard_Elite.png
23:26	Jaood	had that one but black
23:26	maravillas	i'm an ms natural 4000 user :)
23:26	maravillas	i haven't gotten around to replacing it
23:27	talios	danielcompton - keyboard.io looks nice
23:27	danielcompton	talios: not out yet though :(
23:27	maravillas	i also use an apple magic keyboard and don't mind it
23:28	Jaood	the 4000 is bigger because of the media buttons
23:28	talios	danielcompton - sadface
23:28	danielcompton	maravillas: I liked the apple keyboard until i started using emacs
23:28	joobus	i have bigger hands, the 4000 lets me stretch my hands out a little better. the apple keyboards are too cramped for me.
23:28	maravillas	it is a little awkward, but thankfully i've never had rsi issues with it, somehow
23:30	danielcompton	my favourite is still https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2787/4397554484_739ae62eee_b.jpg
23:30	danielcompton	from technomancy
23:30	joobus	danc, lol
23:30	joobus	did you use one of those?
23:31	talios	danielcompton - combine that with http://www.muldersworld.com/photo.asp?id=25864 and you're a winner
23:31	talios	or just a sad loser :)
23:31	danielcompton	computering anywhere. Just add an Oculus Rift
23:39	joobus	does anyone here use the nginx-clojure module with nginx?
23:39	justin_smith	joobus: it's silly
23:39	justin_smith	just use nginx as a reverse proxy
23:39	joobus	to a ring server?
23:39	justin_smith	right
23:40	justin_smith	http-kit is a good choice
23:40	justin_smith	it can be helpful to run varnish too
23:41	joobus	nginx-clojure claims to be the fastest https://github.com/ptaoussanis/clojure-web-server-benchmarks
23:42	joobus	so i was curious how well it works
23:42	joobus	but the install tutorial was written in broken english and i kinda got lost
23:42	amalloy	joobus: i would not advise using nginx-clojure