#clojure – 2014-08-15

2014-08-15

00:17	zkanfer	I have a ClojureScript question. I'm looking to get functions and constants on the Math object if I only have the name of the function or constant as a string. I can check if they exist with, e.g. (.hasOwnProperty js/Math "E"), but how do I get the constant or function that the string corresponds to?
00:25	TEttinger	zkanfer: http://stackoverflow.com/a/23440306/786740
00:25	TEttinger	it isn't supported but can be done
00:29	zkanfer	TEttinger: Thanks. So I need to somehow include proxy.js in my clojurescript code, then call (js/proxy (str "Math/" "E"))?
00:32	zkanfer_	TEttinger: Ugh, Firefox just crashed. If you responded to my last question (how to use the StackOverflow answer), I didn't see it.
00:35	TEttinger	zkanfer_, good ol' firefox crashes
00:35	TEttinger	I'm amazed at how often it crashes now
00:36	zkanfer_	Yeah, not even sure why -- I wasn't doing anything bad, I swear!
02:23	andyf	I am guessing there is a more elegant way to do this: (for [[idx x] (map-indexed (fn [idx x] [idx x]) some-sequence)] <do stuff with idx and x here>)
02:24	pyrtsa	andyf: At least you could use (map-indexed vector) there.
02:25	pyrtsa	I mean (map-indexed vector some-sequence), of course.
02:25	andyf	pyrtsa: Yes, that is quite a bit better
02:25	pyrtsa	Defining (def enumerate (map-indexed vector)) could be useful.
02:26	andyf	You mean with partial before map-indexed?
02:26	pyrtsa	Bah, partial yes.
02:27	pyrtsa	Should probably have another cup of coffee this morning. :)
02:27	andyf	np. You didn't have my senior moment of writing (fn [idx x] [idx x]) at least :)
02:27	pyrtsa	:)
02:28	andyf	,(inc pyrtsa)
02:28	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: pyrtsa in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
02:28	andyf	shoot, I don't use this stuff often enough to remember the right syntax
02:28	pyrtsa	:\|
02:29	pyrtsa	Without a leading comma, I guess.
02:29	andyf	(inc pyrtsa)
02:29	lazybot	⇒ 7
02:29	pyrtsa	Gee, thanks!
02:32	andyf	Wow, we are up to 1332 accounts on Clojure JIRA (noticed only because of adding a count to my program that calculates weighted votes)
04:42	H4ns	s
05:04	michaelr525	hello
05:05	hyPiRion	hi
05:09	michaelr525	what's up in clojureland?
05:13	hyPiRion	not much
05:13	michaelr525	good
05:13	hyPiRion	silence this early, as all 'muricans are sleeping
05:13	michaelr525	usually there is too much so i just can't keep up with everything ;)
05:14	hyPiRion	hah
05:23	michaelr525	yogthos: hi
05:23	michaelr525	yogthos: your blog, does it also render on the server?
05:23	michaelr525	yogthos: for google and such..
05:47	Killombre	Hello max
06:36	ponpal	How can I evaluate (use 'clojure.repl) automatically everytime I use cider-jack-in in emacs?
06:39	milos_co1agen	perhaps check out http://thinkrelevance.com/blog/2013/06/04/clojure-workflow-reloaded section 'Dev profile and user.clj'?
06:40	luxbock	ponpal: you can add `:injections [(use 'clojure.repl)]` to your profiles.clj
06:40	luxbock	this only makes it be present in the user namespace though
06:40	thesaskwatch	Hi, anyone has a good way to manage unbalanced parentheses when in paredit mode? Or a differerent mode/improvement to easily find/match brackets?
06:41	luxbock	if you'd like to have those functions available in all of your namespaces then you should check out vinyasa
06:41	thesaskwatch	(I mean in emacs)
06:41	ponpal	Thanks a lot, I'll check that out.
07:00	TimMc	TEttinger2: Get yourself onto the Firefox ESR (Extended Support Release) track and it's a lot more stable.
07:10	michaelr525	is there a log of the channel somewhere?
07:22	TimMc	~log
07:22	clojurebot	see logs
07:22	TimMc	sigh
07:22	TimMc	~logs
07:22	clojurebot	logs is http://clojure-log.n01se.net/
07:22	hyPiRion	hah
07:22	TimMc	$log
07:22	TimMc	$logs
07:22	TimMc	http://lazybot.org/logs/#clojure/2014-08-15
07:25	Bronsa	michaelr525: http://logs.lazybot.org/irc.freenode.net/#clojure
07:46	michaelr525	Bronsa, TimMc: Thanks
07:46	michaelr525	I get this: These are not the logs you're looking for.
07:46	michaelr525	ah
07:46	michaelr525	http://lazybot.org/logs/#clojure/2014-08-15
07:47	michaelr525	^^^^^^^^ this worked
08:02	phillord	hmmm -- I am confused by this
08:02	phillord	(into {} [[:a 1][:b 2]])
08:02	phillord	{:a 1, :b 2}
08:02	phillord	(into {} '([:a 1][:b 2]))
08:02	phillord	{:a 1, :b 2}
08:03	phillord	(into {} '((:a 1)(:b 2)))
08:03	phillord	ClassCastException clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry clojure.lang.ATransientMap.conj (ATransientMap.java:44)
08:03	phillord	why does the last except?
08:04	hyPiRion	phillord: [a b] can be cast to a key entry, whereas '(a b)/(list a b) cannot
08:04	phillord	so, why not "clojure.lang.PersistantList cannot be cast to ...."
08:05	phillord	where does "Keyword" come into this?
08:10	hyPiRion	phillord: because (conj {} {:a :b :c :d}) == (conj {} (seq {:a :b :c :d})), confusingly enough
08:10	hyPiRion	,(conj {} (seq {:a :b :c :d}))
08:10	clojurebot	{:a :b, :c :d}
08:12	phillord	you are right
08:12	phillord	I am confused:-)
08:12	hyPiRion	yeah, it's confusing
08:13	hyPiRion	,(into {} [[(clojure.lang.MapEntry. :a :b)]])
08:13	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Vector arg to map conj must be a pair>
08:13	hyPiRion	,(into {} [(list (clojure.lang.MapEntry. :a :b))])
08:13	clojurebot	{:a :b}
08:16	phillord	does this count as a bug I wonder?
08:24	gfredericks	no, conj with maps is intentionally weird and confusing
08:24	gfredericks	I don't understand the intention but it's unlikely it was an accident
08:24	pyrtsa	phillord: Sounds like a question of whether the behaviour of (conj {} x) makes sense when x isn't a MapEntry nor a vector.
08:25	phillord	I should add it to my list of gotchas I guess
08:26	pyrtsa	The questionable code is this: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/43cc1854508d655e58e377f84836ba128971f90c/src/jvm/clojure/lang/APersistentMap.java#L39-L45
08:26	gfredericks	merge is implemented with the questionable part of conj
08:27	pyrtsa	As well as: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/43cc1854508d655e58e377f84836ba128971f90c/src/jvm/clojure/lang/ATransientMap.java#L41-L47
08:27	pyrtsa	gfredericks: Thanks! Was about to ask next if anyone knew of code paths touching that piece of code.
09:35	TimMc	Bronsa: I see now that if (let [a 5] #{a 5}) did not fail due to the set constructor's check, then #{(gensym) (gensym)} would silently become a set of one element instead of throwing.
09:35	TimMc	That would be pretty nasty.
09:36	Bronsa	TimMc: yeah
09:37	TimMc	I withdraw my objection on practical grounds. :-P
09:53	TimMc	I guess set literals and code-as-data just don't mix all that well.
10:06	bobwilliams	anyone have experience with: clj-http.client?
10:06	dakrone	bobwilliams: yes a little ;)
10:07	bobwilliams	dakrone: haha!
10:07	bobwilliams	i'm using your post to make a call to cleverbot's http://www.cleverbot.com/webservicemin
10:08	bobwilliams	all is good but getting an error on invalid cookie header. MalformedCookieException Unable to parse expires attribute
10:08	bobwilliams	is there a way to set this?
10:08	bobwilliams	i'm a n00b so sure i'm just missing something simple
10:08	dakrone	bobwilliams: how are you sending the request? what options are you passing?
10:09	bobwilliams	:body <url encoded param string> :client {"http.useragent" "clj-http"}
10:09	bobwilliams	i have :debug and :debug-body both set to true
10:10	bobwilliams	that's all though
10:10	dakrone	so you're getting that exception when the cookie header is parsed then
10:10	bobwilliams	using requestmaker.com and/or httpclient.app it works for me
10:10	bobwilliams	believe so
10:11	dakrone	bobwilliams: do you have a stacktrace with a line-number in clj-http?
10:11	bobwilliams	MalformedCookieException Unable to parse expires attribute: "Fri, 15 Aug 2014 15:07:08 GMT" org.apache.http.impl.cookie.BasicExpiresHandler.parse (BasicExpiresHandler.java:60)
10:43	MaxDH	Hi, I'm trying to use 'use-fixtures' in conjunction with test selectors to stop Travis from running certain tests that require database connections. However the build is failing due to these tests within use-fixtures. So I was wondering if there is a way to use test selectors and use-fixtures together?
10:43	MaxDH	Thanks
10:47	stompyj	does anyone here use clojure for “big data” purposes?
10:50	TimMc	stompyj: Define "big data". :-)
10:50	stompyj	I know
10:50	stompyj	I hate even saying the word
10:51	stompyj	but what I mean is, using clojure for working with spark, kafka, cassandra, etc
10:51	stompyj	I’m about to build an event-based system
10:51	llasram	stompyj: Yes. We use Clojure on Hadoop MapReduce and HBase
10:51	llasram	I wrote https://github.com/damballa/parkour/ and use it daily on multi-TB datasets
10:51	stompyj	and I really want to use clojure, but scala seems to have a lot of momentum in the space
10:51	stompyj	llasram: thanks, I’ll check this out
10:52	stompyj	I know clojure is well supported w/r/t storm and hadoop
10:58	TimMc	stompyj: But seriously, what are your needs?
10:59	stompyj	TimMc: just kafka, storm and spark, to start
10:59	stompyj	I guess I’m just asking a broader question, data transformation seems like a slam dunk for clojure
11:00	stompyj	but there seems to be less emphasis on it, atm (which is fine)
11:30	llasram	stompyj: What do you mean by "less emphasis on it"?
11:32	ToxicFrog	"Wrong number of args (-1) passed to: core/filter"
11:32	ToxicFrog	um
11:32	stompyj	the amount of perceived activity and energy around that space seems less enthusiastic then in the core.async / clojurescript / web programming / other topics
11:32	llasram	ToxicFrog: Now that is a sweet error
11:33	llasram	stompyj: I think there's just fewer people doing distributed data-processing in general, and no big companies using the language for distributed data-processing the way e.g. Twitter is with Scala
11:33	ToxicFrog	llasram: I know!
11:33	stompyj	llasram: 100% agreed
11:34	stompyj	thats why I came here to see if people are doing it, but not talking about it
11:34	stompyj	because clojure actually seems a better language fit for this stuff then scala
11:34	stompyj	and as I take this new gig, I’m going to have to think very hard about whether i should use scala or clojure
11:34	stompyj	if*
11:34	ToxicFrog	The actual error is that I typed (filter (fn [[k v]] (keyword? k) xs)) rather than (filter (fn [[k v]] (keyword? k)) xs)
11:35	ToxicFrog	But what an error message
11:35	llasram	stompyj: I don't know Scala's collection libraries well enough to compare, but I do find Clojure's reducers abstraction (and probably transducers) to be well-suited to writing programs over distributed data
11:36	stompyj	llasram: yeah, exactly
11:36	Bronsa	ToxicFrog: there's already a ticket in JIRA for that
11:36	stompyj	we’re on the same page
11:36	stompyj	most of the shops here in NYC are using Scala to do this kind of stuff atm
11:36	stompyj	at least the ones I’ve talked to
11:37	llasram	stompyj: Well, give Parkour a try vs e.g. Scalding or SCrunch.
11:37	stompyj	llasram: I absolutely will! thanks!
11:37	llasram	Although if you wait a few days, I should have a new release out w/ some nice new features
11:38	llasram	Cool beans
11:38	stompyj	yeah, I don’t have th gig yet
11:38	stompyj	haha
11:38	stompyj	so I have time
11:43	lvh	is there a println that for some value that can be described as a literal, gives me the literal?
11:43	lvh	i.e. it will quote lists etc
11:43	llasram	lvh: prn?
11:44	llasram	,(prn [1 #{2} [3]])
11:44	clojurebot	[1 #{2} [3]]\n
11:44	lvh	maybe :)
11:44	lvh	thanks!
11:44	mdrogalis	Hey stompyj. I specialize in building batch and stream processing systems with Clojure. Can answer questions if you need. :)
11:44	stompyj	mdrogalis: hey! I’ve read a bunch of your blog posts
11:44	stompyj	great stuff
11:45	mdrogalis	stompyj: D'aw. Thanks. :)
11:45	stompyj	mdrogalis: there’s nothing specific, it’s more about hiring, and defending the usage of clojure over scala, from a business perspective
11:46	mdrogalis	stompyj: I've found that these problems end up being less about language and more about mechanism to be honest.
11:46	stompyj	mdrogalis: what do you mean?
11:47	mdrogalis	stompyj: It's a little hard for me to articulate, but when I say mechanism I mean something like map-reduce, or a queueing-type system.
11:48	stompyj	ohhh
11:48	stompyj	yeah, I agree
11:48	mdrogalis	There's a lot of bindings to each of those, but once you've lock into one, you're kind of there, you know?
11:48	stompyj	yeah
11:49	stompyj	but this is less about code execution and more me pitching a company on why I’m going to use clojure, and how this is more efficient, not necc. from a code perspective, but from a leaning on open-source, and hiring perspective
11:49	stompyj	which is why I was looking to find more people working on these kinds of problems
11:49	mdrogalis	stompyj: Got it. Sounds like you're a consulting engineer, or battling upwards in your own company?
11:49	stompyj	as positive signaling that I won’tbe writing custom libs for everything
11:49	lvh	Is there any diference between (hash-map k0 v0 k1 v1) and {k0 v0 k1 v1}?
11:50	stompyj	mdrogalis: consulting engineer to start, with the idea of running data operations for them long term, building a team, etc
11:50	mdrogalis	stompyj: Cool :)
11:51	stompyj	mdrogalis: yeah, and we may have the time to allow me to go clojure, and build libs as I need them, but I want to be able to present truthful options to the potential client
11:52	mdrogalis	stompyj: Yeah, definitely depends on the problem. Aside from that, I can at least say that Clojure's tight number of types makes working with intermediaries extremely easy, since you never get far away from the basic data structures.
11:52	mdrogalis	There's no boiler plate object transformation code to custom interfaces or something like that
11:52	boxed	man, the clojure reddit is so damn poisonous :(
11:53	stompyj	mdrogalis: exactly!
11:53	boxed	“I disagre with his point, DOWNVOTE”
11:53	stompyj	thats why I’d have thought lots of data aggregation / event streaming enthusiasts would be using clojure for these problems
11:54	stompyj	between transducers, core.async, immutable collections, you have everything you need
11:55	mdrogalis	stompyj: Most people I meet who sell themselves as engineers for bigger data sets are Java enterprisey people. :
11:55	mdrogalis	:/*
11:55	stompyj	mdrogalis: yeah, its deeply frustrating hahaahha
11:56	stompyj	at this stage of my career I just want to solve big problems, I’m less concerned with language, so I’d use scala if I had to, however, I’m MUCH rather use clojure :D
11:56	stompyj	I’d*
11:57	mdrogalis	Understandable.
11:58	whodidthis	what happened to all the cool presentation vidyas from euroclj/strangeloop
11:58	whodidthis	or did they happen (2014)
12:00	mdrogalis	stompyj: Is the client looking at a batch or event stream processing problem?
12:00	stompyj	mdrogalis: they don’t know, I’m pitching starting with an event stream
12:00	stompyj	then as we collect data, and understand our needs better
12:01	stompyj	bringing in something like spark for the batch piece
12:01	mdrogalis	stompyj: Pretty cool.
12:02	stompyj	mdrogalis: yeah! we’ll see if it happens, would be super exciting
12:02	mdrogalis	I'm going to be open sourcing a batch/streaming hybrid for Clojure in about a month. Hopefully it'll wake up some of the dormant Clojure space, kind of like you mentioned.
12:04	llasram	mdrogalis: Stand-alone, or built on top of existing tech?
12:05	mdrogalis	llasram: Its a standalone.
12:06	stompyj	mdrogalis: nice! I think this is a space that clojure could really dominate
12:07	stompyj	if we can get some more wind behind the sails,
12:07	stompyj	sounds like llasram and you are doing some great work on this already tho
12:07	stompyj	I’m curious what nathan marz is up to as well
12:07	mdrogalis	He's been pretty quiet for a while.
12:08	stompyj	yeah
12:11	Major_Crixus	!rules
12:12	gf3	yogthos: hey cool secretary article 😏
12:14	arohner	I have an Om single-page app. Is goog.events/listen the preferred way to catch navigation events?
12:16	arohner	listen on an goog.history.Html5History
12:16	bbloom_	arohner: om/react don't help with html5 history at all, so yeah, you can use goog.events or you can use whatever other js lib you prefer for that task
12:17	arohner	I'm seeing what appears to be an advanced compilation bug (on google's side), so I'm not sure if I'm on the right track
12:18	arohner	which is obviously unlikely
12:18	gf3	arohner: you actually might be interested in https://github.com/gf3/secretary
12:18	gf3	arohner: which works with both history and html5history (or anything else really)
12:19	arohner	gf3: I'm using secretary, but this code catches events through google.history.Html5History and then dispatches to secretary
12:20	arohner	but the event google passes in to the event listener appears to be missing the critical field under advanced compilation, but not in whitespace
12:20	gf3	arohner: ohhh i think we ran into that once
12:21	gf3	arohner: this might be related → https://github.com/gf3/secretary/issues/14
12:22	arohner	gf3: I don't understand how?
12:23	gf3	arohner: what info is missing?
12:23	arohner	gf3: the 'token' field on the event
12:24	michaelr525	arohner: how Html5History is beter than History?
12:24	gf3	arohner: and how're you grabbing it?
12:24	arohner	michaelr525: I don't know, this is inherited
12:24	gf3	michaelr525: it doesn't use `document.location.hash`
12:24	arohner	gf3: aget. also missing when logged via console.log
12:24	gf3	michaelr525: it uses the HTML5 push/popstate api
12:25	michaelr525	oh
12:25	michaelr525	gf3: thank
12:25	michaelr525	gf3: btw, i'm using secretary too in a small om app :)
12:25	gf3	michaelr525: yayyyy :)
12:26	gf3	arohner: are you able to provide me with a paste via refheap.com ?
12:26	arohner	yeah, one sec
12:27	arohner	the app is based on omchaya, and looks like there's been a fix to omchaya. testing that first
12:27	arohner	yeah, ok
12:27	arohner	using (.-token e) rather than (aget e "token") fixed it
12:28	arohner	which is kind of obvious now
12:28	arohner	I'm kind of impressed closure strips fields out of events
12:28	gf3	arohner: :) excellent
12:28	arohner	gf3: thanks for your help
12:29	gf3	arohner: np—glad it worked out
12:30	ToxicFrog	So, I can destructure maps where the keys are keywords with {:keys [x y z]}, which will fish out :x :y :z from the map.
12:30	ToxicFrog	Is there an equivalent for when the keys are symbols rather than keywords?
12:30	arohner	:syms
12:30	michaelr525	gf3: i wonder, why didn't they just add the pop/push state capabilities to History instead of creating another class?
12:31	gf3	michaelr525: because it's not applicable in all situations
12:31	arohner	,(let [{:syms [a b c]} '{a 1 b 2 c 3}] b)
12:31	clojurebot	2
12:31	arohner	ToxicFrog: ^^
12:31	gf3	michaelr525: for instance older browsers don't support it, or there might be cases where you need to use the hash
12:31	arohner	there's also :strs
12:32	michaelr525	gf3: so they wanted to keep the interface for backward compatibility, or something
12:32	abaker	there a clojure version available in maven/clojars that has transducers, like 1.7.0-alpha1 or whatever?
12:32	michaelr525	gf3: i'd rather have one class which uses the html5 features when available and falls back to hash otherwise..
12:33	_alejandro	abaker: yes
12:33	_alejandro	[org.clojure/clojure "1.7.0-alpha1"]
12:33	abaker	cool, thanks
12:37	gsdfvu	warning
12:37	gsdfvu	you may be watched
12:37	gsdfvu	do usa&israel use the internet(facebook,youtube,twitter, chat rooms ..ect)to spy??
12:37	gsdfvu	do usa&israel use the internet 2 collect informations,,can we call that spying??
12:37	gsdfvu	do they record&analyse everything we do on the internet,,can they harm you using these informations??
12:37	gsdfvu	تحذير
12:37	lazybot	gsdfvu: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
12:37	lazybot	gsdfvu: Definitely not.
12:37	lazybot	gsdfvu: Definitely not.
12:52	mdeboard	dnolen_: Any possibility of adding some repl options to mies? I'm struggling with how to set up a mixed-source (clj+cljs) project such that the repl is useful in both (including connecting browser to repl etc.)
12:53	mdeboard	or I guess if anyone can point me to such a thing
12:53	mdeboard	all the repl documentation is confusing since there's like a four-square grid of meanings to "repl": clj vs. cljs, in-emacs vs. command-line repl
12:54	dnolen_	mdeboard: not planning on adding any REPL support to mies in the near future
12:55	mdeboard	ok. thanks
12:57	mdeboard	dnolen_: So do you just use the command line repl for cljs work then? That seems the most clear-cut wrt integration with the browser and so forth.
12:57	dnolen_	mdeboard: inferior-lisp in Emacs
12:58	mdeboard	cemerick's "austin" lib works perfectly with command line, but I'm not sure where hte line is between austin & piggyback
12:58	mdeboard	oic
12:58	dnolen_	mdeboard: been thinking about improving REPL support but don't know when I'll get around to it
12:59	mdeboard	I understand
12:59	bbloom_	i've found weasel to be much more reliable
12:59	mdeboard	weasel?
12:59	clojurebot	weasel is https://github.com/tomjakubowski/weasel/
12:59	mdeboard	thanks clojurebot
13:00	mdeboard	bbloom_: oh interesting
13:00	mdeboard	I guess I need to understand how nrepl works
13:00	mdeboard	I think that's my prob
13:00	mdeboard	nrepl?
13:00	clojurebot	nrepl is a network REPL implementation: http://github.com/clojure/tools.nrepl
13:00	bbloom_	~botsnack
13:00	clojurebot	Thanks! Can I have chocolate next time
13:01	mdeboard	You'll have botsnacks and you'll like it.
13:02	mdeboard	Maybe I should sign up to do an nrepl talk or something
13:16	TimMc	$botsnack
13:16	lazybot	TimMc: Thanks! Om nom nom!!
13:18	{blake}	I have a multimethod with a :default but I'm still getting a "No method in multimethod for dispatch value" error. How is this possible?
13:20	{blake}	Must the namespace that contains the new type use the namespace that contains the :default method?
13:21	hiredman	{blake}: yes, you have to load code for it to do anything
13:21	llasram	{blake}: You do need to ensure that an implementing namespace is loaded in order for the implementation to exist
13:22	{blake}	The code is loaded. I have a system that includes a number of types, :int, :decimal, :float, etc., and I've added a new type in a new file.
13:23	{blake}	And the default gets called for those other types. And the only difference I can observe is that the new type is in its own file.
13:23	llasram	{blake}: Can you produce a minimal reproducing example?
13:24	llasram	Because my understanding of the behavior you are describing is that it's not what should happen
13:24	{blake}	llasram, Not easily. OK, if it's not what should happen the problem must lie some place else. I'll continue to investigate.
13:24	ToBeReplaced	justin_smith: i reworked register! and added some other goodies... getting close to a 0.1.0 release
13:27	justin_smith	ToBeReplaced: oh, nice, I'll check it out
13:27	justin_smith	I still plan to work on it more, had some distractions in my personal life recently that got me off track
13:28	{blake}	llasram, hiredman OK, mystery solved. In the particular test cases the code WASN'T being loaded. Thanks!
13:29	{blake}	(inc llasram)
13:29	lazybot	⇒ 33
13:29	{blake}	(inc hiredman)
13:29	lazybot	⇒ 52
13:56	martinklepsch	I use lein-garden which requires an old version of garden — is there any way to override a dependency's version of dependencies. (huh!)
13:56	martinklepsch	I tried :exclusions but then it seems to be completely gone and can't be found anymore
14:05	martinklepsch	somehow I must have messed up things really well... leiningen constantly tries to use garden 1.1.5 although I have garden 1.2.1 in :dependencies & made my own lein-garden that depends on 1.2.1
14:05	martinklepsch	(instead of 1.1.5
14:12	SegFaultAX	martinklepsch: Whatever you did, it didn't work.
14:12	SegFaultAX	Just thought I'd clear that up for you. :)
14:13	llasram	martinklepsch: The project :dependencies are the dependencies for any project JVMs, which are different from the dependencies for the JVM for Leiningen itself
14:13	llasram	If `lein-garden` is in your :plugins, then it and its dependencies will be pulled into the Leiningen JVM (which sounds like what you want)
14:14	llasram	If you built a new version of lein-garden w/ the new dep, then make sure your :plugins specifies the correct variant version you built
14:14	grache28	"apply 0 f x = x ; apply n f x = f ( (apply (n-1) f) x)" - What's going on there? It's calling f which returns x, n times?
14:14	grache28	Sorry if syntax is off and for very basic question
14:15	llasram	grache28: Wrong channel?
14:16	TEttinger	grache28, I'm guessing that's a haskell question?
14:18	grache28	TEttinger: ok, sorry for the mix up, the language wasn't stated in the example
14:18	TEttinger	where'd you get it I wonder?
14:19	SegFaultAX	Looks like iterate
14:19	mdeboard	huh. TIL about inferior-lisp
14:19	grache28	TEttinger: university material - can ask prof. after weekend
14:19	TEttinger	as in "lisp that was not invented here" mdeboard?
14:20	mdeboard	TEttinger: hehe no the emacs command
14:20	TEttinger	that's exactly what I mean, mdeboard
14:20	TEttinger	doesn't it only consider emacs lisp full lisp?
14:20	clojurebot	excusez-moi
14:20	amalloy	yeah, looks like iterate in haskell
14:21	SegFaultAX	A strange way to write iterate.
14:21	mdeboard	TEttinger: idk, it's what dnolen_ said he uses for cljs repl
14:21	amalloy	well, a little weird. it's like !! and iterate glued together
14:21	SegFaultAX	Yea
14:21	TEttinger	and apply is a pretty overused name to be declared in user code like that
14:21	SegFaultAX	Usually `iterate f x = x : iterate f (f x)` will do ya
14:22	amalloy	maybe they should call it `data` instead, TEttinger
14:22	SegFaultAX	TEttinger: No kidding.
14:22	TEttinger	it doesn't appear to be creating a seq, does it?
14:22	mdeboard	TEttinger: Doing M-x inferior-lisp in a cljs buffer definitely opens a clojure repl so it (inferior-lisp) may have a hook that clojure-mode hooks into
14:22	amalloy	no. like i said, it's iterate and !! (which is nth)
14:22	SegFaultAX	TEttinger: That's why it's iterate + !!
14:22	SegFaultAX	Jinx
14:22	TEttinger	I didn't recognize !! , not being a type nerd :)
14:23	SegFaultAX	?
14:23	SegFaultAX	It's just a function
14:23	TEttinger	I don't use haskell
14:23	TEttinger	I tried to learn it once
14:23	SegFaultAX	But then you took an arrow... I'm so sorry.
14:24	TEttinger	this was when people insisted on callin monads "warm fuzzy things" to avoid having to think about them
14:25	SegFaultAX	Was this like 15 years ago?
14:25	TEttinger	closer to 8
14:25	TEttinger	I'm sure haskell
14:26	TEttinger	I'm sure haskell's a fine language if you think in typesystems
14:26	TEttinger	http://tpolecat.github.io/assets/list.png
14:26	SegFaultAX	Haskell is no different than any other tool. It has a range of problems it's well suited for, and a range of problems it isn't.
14:26	TEttinger	that's Scala's List class superclass diagram
14:26	bbloom_	TEttinger: that graph makes me laugh every time
14:26	SegFaultAX	Depending on the fanboyism of whom you're talking to, that range will grow and shrink accordingly
14:27	bbloom_	i mean, clojure's seq/coll stuff is pretty complex too
14:27	bbloom_	but that's just fun
14:27	TEttinger	bbloom_, yeah I guess
14:27	SegFaultAX	bbloom_: If by laugh, you mean weep tears of blood, yea me too.
14:27	TEttinger	Scala seems to have a phobia of nil
14:27	mdrogalis	Does anyone know when the Conj talks get announced? Can't remember if it was today or next week.
14:27	SegFaultAX	TEttinger: It's a good phobia to have.
14:27	TEttinger	clojure just handles nil...
14:28	TEttinger	,(seq nil)
14:28	clojurebot	nil
14:28	SegFaultAX	Because Clojure tries to make nil act like nil in some other lisps (which is the same as ())
14:28	SegFaultAX	Unless it doesn't, then NPE wheeee
14:29	TEttinger	SegFaultAX, I can't even remember the last NPE I got in clojure
14:29	bbloom_	the NPE issue is b/c nil isn't an object, like in smalltalk or ruby or whatever
14:29	bbloom_	it's not a problem with the concept of a universal nil value, it's a problem with the implementation of it as a null pointer
14:29	SegFaultAX	Correct
14:30	TEttinger	I do recall some fun bugs to track down in C#
14:30	bbloom_	but we can extend protocols to nil :-)
14:30	SegFaultAX	TEttinger: Again, because many times you're working with things that expect sequences, and nil is just an empty sequence in that context.
14:30	SegFaultAX	This is not an unusual property of lisps.
14:30	TEttinger	if you use GDI+ to try to get a subset of an image that is larger than the image itself, it doesn't give a nice error, it gives an Out of Memory exception
14:31	TEttinger	this was hard to track down
14:31	SegFaultAX	Maybe they meant "out of the memory region of this image!"
14:31	SegFaultAX	And thought OOM sounded nicer.
14:31	TEttinger	which would have been nice to know!
14:31	stompyj	but type systems!
14:31	TEttinger	stompyj, heh
14:32	stompyj	sorry, I saw Haskell in the convo, and thought it would be appropriate :D
14:32	stompyj	I have equal love for clojure and haskell
14:32	martinklepsch	can I somehow list out :plugin dependencies?
14:32	arrdem	stuck in IO monad pls send help
14:32	SegFaultAX	TEttinger: The thing about advanced type systems is... it's truly shocking just how much stuff can be decided statically (eg at compile time)
14:33	TEttinger	and yeah C# has been moderately-decent for what I've been using, which is basically array-heavy code that sometimes needs to break out into functional guitar solos
14:33	SegFaultAX	Haskell certainly tries to push that to the logical extreme in some cases.
14:33	SegFaultAX	And dependent types allow you to take it further still.
14:33	SegFaultAX	But being able to identify a huge category of bugs without ever having to /run your program/ is a pretty nice property.
14:34	TEttinger	oddly enough, the fastest speedup in my C# code has been a relatively small, relatively challenging function that uses raw memory writes. and that didn't throw memory errors, ever
14:35	SegFaultAX	And that property extends over most statically typed languages to a certain degree. Even relatively crappy ones like C, C++, and Java.
14:36	TEttinger	the problem I had was entertaining to look at and possibly informative. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11914692/Artillery_S_Large_face0_0.png is how it should look.
14:36	TEttinger	but it ended up generating https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11914692/Artillery_S_Large_face0_0_nogreen.png
14:37	TEttinger	the issue had to do with ARGB beingstored as BGRA in memory (big endian vs. little endian)
15:37	akhudek	I just want to double check that my understanding is regarding om. You generally shouldn’t use set-state outside of one of the om events: will-update, did-updated, etc. E.g. you shouldn’t use set-state in a callback?
15:47	bbloom_	akhudek: you can use set state in a callback
15:47	bbloom_	akhudek: http://facebook.github.io/react/docs/forms.html
15:48	akhudek	bbloom_: hmm. Ok curious. I seem to be encountering a case where state is not triggering a re-render. I’ll do into some more. I’m probably not on the latest om either, so will check that. Thanks.
15:48	akhudek	s/do/dig/
16:09	martinklepsch	is there something like lein deps :tree for plugins in my project?
16:10	xeqi	martinklepsch: lein deps :plugin-tree
16:13	supersym	cool..didnt know that one
16:14	martinklepsch	xeqi: thanks!
16:16	martinklepsch	I have [garden "1.1.5"] nowhere in there but keep getting this error + a stacktrace that (I think) wouldn't come up if the right version is used
16:16	martinklepsch	(WARNING!!! version ranges found for:)
16:16	martinklepsch	([garden "1.1.5"] -> [com.keminglabs/cljx "0.3.1"] -> [org.clojars.trptcolin/sjacket "0.1.0.3"] -> [org.clojure/clojure "[1.3.0,)"]
16:16	martinklepsch	Consider using [garden "1.1.5" :exclusions [org.clojure/clojure]].)
16:21	martinklepsch	Any ideas what could cause that? Here is my project.clj: https://gist.github.com/1fbb4961f902daf4e851
16:23	hyPiRion	martinklepsch: could you provide the output of `lein deps :tree`?
16:24	hyPiRion	martinklepsch: oh wait, https://github.com/noprompt/lein-garden/blob/master/src/leiningen/garden.clj#L112-L114 seems to be injected
16:25	hyPiRion	I guess you should add an issue to the plugin, because that's not good style
16:27	martinklepsch	hyPiRion: ohhh!
16:27	martinklepsch	that makes sense!
16:27	akhudek	hmm, strange, I can clearly see that it’s calling the set-sate, yet om/react doesn’t always trigger a render from it
16:28	hyPiRion	I think a short article on how to write proper lein plugins would be worth looking into.
16:28	martinklepsch	hyPiRion: is there a reason why that injection there could make sense?
16:31	martinklepsch	hyPiRion: I'd happily write a patch but I'm not sure what's the right way — should I just remove the profile/with-profile stuff?
16:34	hyPiRion	martinklepsch: they are running an `eval-in-project` call, so they want to ensure the project depends on garden and that other dependency. If you add ^:displace to both dependency entries, I think it should be fixed
16:35	hyPiRion	that is, it should be {:dependencies '[^:displace [garden "1.1.5"] ^:displace [ns-tracker "0.2.1"]]}
16:42	wei	what’s the recommended way to do interprocess communication between clojure programs?
16:51	justin_smith	wei: you could use a java IPC like RMI
16:51	justin_smith	or whatever is easiest to use on a platform specific basis I guess
16:54	wei	something like netflix’s ribbon? i was originally thinking of using redis queues, but that doesn’t have easy two-way communication
16:55	akhudek	wei: we use rabbitmq
16:58	wei	akhudek: and Langohr, i presume?
16:58	akhudek	wei: yep
16:58	wei	why did you choose rabbitmq over the alternatives? e.g. redis
16:59	wei	guaranteed delivery?
16:59	akhudek	that, plus durability, high availability and a message passing abstraction just worked better for us
17:00	akhudek	processes pass larger pieces of data around via postgresql
17:01	akhudek	but that doesn’t help indicating that something has changed and work needs to be done
17:01	akhudek	that’s where rmq comes in
17:01	bbloom_	guarenteed deliverability is a lie...
17:01	bbloom_	http://aphyr.com/posts/315-call-me-maybe-rabbitmq
17:01	bbloom_	better to plan for dropped messages than to cross your fingers and hope
17:03	technomancy	bbloom_: sure, but compared to redis?
17:03	bbloom_	technomancy: i wasn't comparing to redis
17:03	bbloom_	im just saying: in general, queues drop messages
17:05	mdrogalis	bbloom_: I think that's a pretty sharp statement to make.
17:06	mdrogalis	There're a lot of queues that have transactions, and do durable writes.
17:06	wei	bbloom_: so, how do you generally plan for dropped messages, if you require guaranteed deliverability? e.g. payment notifications
17:07	bbloom_	wei: retries, idempotency, associativity, commutativity, etc
17:09	wei	bbloom_: is there an article discussing it in more depth?
17:10	wei	e.g. how do you make payments commutative?
17:11	bbloom_	wei: the same way banks do it: with a line of credit :-)
17:11	mthvedt	wei: a surprising amount of payments in the financial system are assumed in the short run to be commutative
17:11	technomancy	bank accounts are the worst examples for consistent distributed systems documentation
17:11	bbloom_	technomancy: yeah seriously
17:12	bbloom_	everybody is like "so you want to do an atomic account decrement" but then nobody actually ever does that
17:12	bbloom_	they do double entry accounting, etc
17:12	mthvedt	technomancy: they have the best consistency implementation in existence. if you cause an inconsistency you pay a $35 overdraft fee
17:12	mthvedt	who needs fancy computer science theory
17:12	mdeboard	lol
17:12	mdeboard	social engineering uber alles
17:12	bbloom_	mthvedt: consistency by fiat
17:12	technomancy	mthvedt: oh man I would love to see that proposed at a startup
17:12	wei	this is bitcoin related so credit doesn’t quite work. if someone withdraws their “credit”, it’s gone
17:12	mdeboard	pavlov-driven development
17:13	bbloom_	wei: when you deal with external systems that don't support sensible distributed semantics, you need to be more cautious....
17:13	bbloom_	bitcoin itself is robust(ish?) to this sort of thing
17:13	bbloom_	but random REST APIs for it aren't going to be
17:14	wei	for one, it’s idempotent thanks to payment hashes
17:14	bbloom_	organizations like coinbase operate like banks, they have extra money/bitcoin to cover discrepencies, and they work it out later
17:15	technomancy	eventual consistency is a thing
17:15	wei	although with that systme, if your missed / doubled transaction is for a huge amount relative to your reserves, you’re screwed
17:16	bbloom_	technomancy: unless your hewitt, in which case you don't think any consistency is a thing
17:16	bbloom_	wei: you ever have to wait for a check to clear?
17:16	wei	and for a toy project like mine that’s entirely possible
17:16	bbloom_	banks do things to mitigate problems like that
17:17	bbloom_	when you start talking about larger amounts of money, consistency becomes even more strange
17:17	bbloom_	like if you have more money than the FDIC insurance limit (250k?) then suddenly all sorts of stuff is slower and weirder
17:17	wei	i guess that’s why coinbase much longer than the blockchain to confirm a transaction
17:17	technomancy	bbloom_: I'm no platonist, but I'm inclined to agree when it comes to the physical realm.
17:18	mthvedt	bbloom_: when finance companies deal with each other, there basically aren’t any rules
17:18	mthvedt	when i worked at an exchange every so often we’d get a call
17:18	mthvedt	“hey you misplaced some trades/a few million dollars"
17:18	bbloom_	technomancy: it's like how all machines are actually finite state machines... sure you've got a finite amount of memory, but you still treat it like a turing machine... same deal w/ eventual consistency. it may not actually exist in practice, but it's a useful concept to reason about
17:19	technomancy	brb staring at flickering shadows
17:21	wei	anyways, thanks for the thoughts. i’d appreciate any literature you guys have on the subject. i basically want guaranteed deliverability and de-duping, whether it’s guaranteed by the messaging system or by a particular system design
17:23	mdrogalis	wei: I can share a little from the toolchain that I work with. HornetQ supports transactions across queues with durable writes. That might buy you what you're looking for.
17:24	mdrogalis	I think ActiveMQ can do the same.
17:24	akhudek	mdrogalis: bbloom was pointing out that it’s still possible in weird conditions to lose messages or get duplicates
17:25	technomancy	dilemma: do you use the systems that aphyr has blogged about even though they are all subject to various failures, or the ones he hasn't blogged about, because you know, they could be good. =)
17:25	mdrogalis	akhudek: Got it.
17:25	bbloom_	mdrogalis: it's worth reading the entire call-me-maybe series
17:26	akhudek	technomancy: better the problems that you know about?
17:26	akhudek	technomancy: it’s unlikely that others have any better solutions since these problems are genuinely difficult
17:26	mdrogalis	bbloom_: I've read a lot of it. But at the end of the day, I actually have to ship stuff without rewriting huge pieces of infrastructure that I woulnt get 100% correct
17:28	akhudek	ack, ok, om is 100% not always triggering a rerender on state change
17:28	bbloom_	mdrogalis: i'm not suggesting you write custom infrastructure, i'm suggesting you put a little extra data in to your messages and process those messages in a way that is tolerant network truths
17:28	akhudek	very sodd
17:28	akhudek	odd even
17:29	mdrogalis	bbloom_: No disagreement there, for sure.
18:07	akhudek	any om wizards around?
18:08	akhudek	I have a case where I call set-state! in a callback yet even should-update isn’t triggered
18:33	danielcompton	Is clojars.org unavailable for others or just me?
18:34	Bronsa	it's working for me
18:38	johnwalker	i'm familiar with lein do {task}, {task}, {task}
18:39	johnwalker	is there a way to change the project context for successive tasks ?
18:39	johnwalker	for example - lein do new mies-om, {change-ctx}, ancient upgrade
19:03	xnull	hei
19:03	xnull	oops
19:06	technomancy	johnwalker: sure: lein do thingy, with-profile +p1 other-thingy
19:07	technomancy	johnwalker: if your first task returns a project map there is also https://github.com/technomancy/lein-thrush but I'm not as confident of that
20:35	TimMc	technomancy: What's the associativity of ,? :-P
21:32	ben_vulpes	i've got an enlive question - this refheap ((html/clone-for [[ad] [advertisements]]
21:32	ben_vulpes	[:tr.ad-data]
21:32	ben_vulpes	(html/clone-for [[copy url bid] [ad]]
21:32	ben_vulpes	[:td.copy] (html/content (str copy))
21:32	ben_vulpes	[:td.url] (html/content (str url))
21:32	ben_vulpes	ah nuts.
21:33	ben_vulpes	https://www.refheap.com/89215 <- that refheap is only returning the td.copy node, and not the url or bid nodes.
21:33	ben_vulpes	i've verified that copy url and bid are all in scope at that time, but can't seem to get the clone-for to make all the nodes i'm looking for
22:08	ToBeReplaced	[ANN] https://github.com/ToBeReplaced/nio.file 0.1.0 , for those interested in using java.nio.file.* classes and methods from clojure
22:25	ben_vulpes	ToBeReplaced: neat stuff. looking forward to it.
22:26	ToBeReplaced	thanks
23:45	arrdem	ToBeReplaced: so at what point is your name just never going to be replaced :P
23:47	ToBeReplaced	arrdem: idk, it seems like a nice UUID, and keeps in-person separate from not-in-person