#clojure – 2014-08-13

2014-08-13

00:23	shriphani	hi I was wondering if anyone has any experience with aleph. I am trying to talk to an aleph tcp server from a java client and calling readLine on the socket's inputstream causes it to block (while a clojure client is able to speak to the server).
00:27	codygman	xeqi: Thanks.
02:34	supreme__	I am new to clojure. would you say Clojure is good (perfect) for building scalable REST based API's? Since clojure have macros and is scale well making it the perfect DSL creator?
03:47	r4vi	supreme__: I think any/most languages would be fine for building a REST API; just a matter of preference
04:14	bajabongo	hi, I'm learning ClojureScript and I'm curious about "special" form (js* string), but I cannot find where and how it's implemented
04:15	bajabongo	could anybody provide info where can I find it's definiotion?
04:19	bryanmaass	What's cooler than how clojure maps are implemented?
04:22	clgv	bajabongo: probably in the clojurescript compiler
04:23	wink	supreme__: ever seen http://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#section=data-r9 ?
04:24	bajabongo	clgv: well, probably :), but I was looking for "js*" string and, actually, did not find any definiotion
04:24	bajabongo	*definition
04:24	bajabongo	clgv: it's used frequently, but nowhere I can find a definition
04:25	clgv	bajabongo: https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/4ba56712274d67b592cff5160bb2a6aea397c72d/src/clj/cljs/analyzer.clj#L1284
04:26	bajabongo	clgv: hm, looks like I didn't notice that since as for now, I don't know what "defmethod" is,
04:26	bajabongo	clgv: thanks, I'll look around
04:27	clgv	bajabongo: oh well so you are just a beginner? then do not try to find that source ;)
04:27	supreme__	wink: nope, thanks!
04:27	clgv	bajabongo: js* just emits literal javascript as far as I read
04:27	bajabongo	clgv: yeah, started learning Clojure(Script) a few days ago :)
04:28	bajabongo	clgv: yes, and that's what I exactly needed to understand, how ClojureScript handles "this" in JS
04:28	clgv	bajabongo: is there some docstring for (doc js*)?
04:28	wink	supreme__: but take it with a grain of salt. I think you can build a reasonably scalable api in most languages. Only the top top end, server costs or speed of development matter as hard facts
04:28	supreme__	I saw there was a video series of rick hickey about learning clojure for a java programmer. they are from 2012, still relevant? waiting for my book to drop in the mail anyday so thought I could look at thoose while waiting. cool that the creator has done the videos himself
04:29	clgv	bajabongo: yeah well the javascript passed to js* will just show up in the non-optimized javascript output
04:29	bajabongo	it turned out there's macro (this-as), but it just makes a binding and uses (js) internally, and that's the reason I wanted to know more about (js)
04:29	clgv	bajabongo: there is probably some information in one of the tutorial series
04:30	supreme__	wink: what webframeworks are clojure that are on that list?
04:30	bajabongo	clgv: I've got no idea, but looking for "this in clojurescript" yields this http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15531261/accessing-this-in-clojurescript
04:30	ener2	is there something like cons in cl that will create pair instead of treating second value as a sequence?
04:31	bajabongo	clgv: which is nice, but I actually don't see why I cannot just use (let [this (js* "this") ...]) by myself
04:31	supreme__	wink: found the abbrevation now
04:31	wink	supreme__: there's a column where you see 'clj' - but most people use libraries and ring middleware to combine stuff, not use a full stack framework, altough there's pedestal and a few more
04:35	bajabongo	clgv: anyway, thanks for providing an exact line :)
04:38	clgv	bajabongo: wont help you much though, since you need to understand clojure pretty well and maybe need some cljs compiler knowledge
04:41	bajabongo	clgv: it's OK, after a few days I have a vague idea how it may work; mostly I just wanted to know how to handle "any" JS
04:41	clgv	bajabongo: I guess, you should use js* seldomly anyway
04:41	supreme__	wink: are you familiar with the rick hickey videos learning clojure for a java programmer? are they still relvent
04:42	supreme__	?
04:43	clgv	supreme__: the general ideas yes. some syntax has change meanwhile
04:45	bajabongo	clgv: sure, it's just I now know, that I have yet another way to refer to JS
05:02	xfel	Hi. Has there been non-trivial changes to the syntax/etc in Clojure since version 1.4 and/or 1.3?
05:02	llasram	ener2: just using a 2-element vector is generally the idiomatic way to represent a pair.
05:03	llasram	xfel: Not really. 1.4 added reader tagged literals, but everything else and since has pretty much been bug fixes and standard library features
05:03	llasram	xfel: See https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/changes.md for the details
05:05	xfel	llasram: Ok, thanks. (Asked because I picked up a book from 2012 which seemed nice, Clojure Programming by Chas Emerick, and would be a bit silly spending time on "old material")
05:06	llasram	Good choice. And yeah, anything covering 1.3 or later should be pretty much still relevant.
05:39	thesaskwatch	Hi, anyone knows how to encode url when using clj-http?
05:42	karls	thesaskwatch: i've used java.net.URLEncoder with success before
05:42	thesaskwatch	karls: thanks
06:21	martinklepsch	anyone experience using nth-child selectors with garden? I can't require garden.selectors that contains some nth-child related things
06:34	ener2	what am I doing wrong here?
06:34	ener2	(let [trgs (.split com.badlogic.gdx.graphics.g2d.TextureRegion texture tw th)]
06:34	ener2	I get No matching method found: split for class java.lang.Class
06:35	ener2	why is it getting java.lang.Class instead of com.badlogic.gdx.graphics.g2d.TextureRegion ?
06:36	broquaint	ener2: If it's a static method then com.badlogic.gdx.graphics.g2d.TextureRegion/splot should work IIRC.
06:36	rolfb	broquaint: s/splot/split ?
06:36	broquaint	That too :)
06:36	ener2	I get
06:36	ener2	CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such namespace: .com.badlogic.gdx.graphics.g2d.TextureRegion, compiling:(simvivor/loader.clj:37:22)
06:37	ener2	with
06:37	ener2	(let [trgs (.com.badlogic.gdx.graphics.g2d.TextureRegion/split texture tw th)]
06:37	broquaint	Drop the leading dot.
06:37	ener2	ah okay thanks
06:37	ener2	hmm
06:38	ener2	No matching field found: length for class [[Lcom.badlogic.gdx.graphics.g2d.TextureRegion;
06:38	ener2	you can't query java arrays same way?
06:39	broquaint	The same way as?
06:39	ener2	well
06:39	ener2	array.length
06:39	ener2	(.length array)
06:39	broquaint	,(let [a (int-array '(1 2 3))] (.length a))
06:40	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: length for class [I>
06:40	broquaint	,(let [a (int-array '(1 2 3))] (alength a))
06:40	clojurebot	3
06:41	broquaint	http://clojure.org/java_interop
06:42	broquaint	^^ Should have all the answers :)
06:49	llasram	ener2: Yeah, the property-like query for array length is a Java syntax feature vs a JVM feature. Clojure distinguishes between them, I assume due to dynamism -- otherwise w/o full type information, you'd have this weird special case in the Clojure compiler for any attempt to access a property named `length`
06:50	ener2	ah alright
06:50	ener2	hmm is (for [foo (range x)] (...))
06:50	ener2	0 based or 1 based?
06:51	llasram	~tias
06:51	clojurebot	Try it and see! You'll get results faster than asking someone in #clojure to evaluate it for you, and you'll get that warm, fuzzy feeling of self-reliance.
06:51	llasram	:-)
06:51	ener2	because it ignores the whole thing if I have (range 1) ...
06:51	llasram	,(range 1)
06:51	clojurebot	(0)
06:53	ener2	http://pastebin.com/4VRzr1QW
06:54	ener2	it nevers gets into that (let [array (nth trgs i)] block
06:54	ener2	even if range returns ä0)
06:54	ener2	*(0)
06:56	Bronsa	ener2: for is lazy
06:56	clgv	ener2: you misunderstood `for`. `for` is lazy and its body is only executed if elements are requested or the whole lazy sequence is forced
06:56	ener2	I found this is how you do for loops in clojure....
06:56	Bronsa	ener2: use (dotimes [i times] ..) rather than (for [i (range times)] ..)
06:56	clgv	ener2: that's wrong. `for` constructs a lazy sequence, so for each "loop" you get an element in a lazy sequence
06:57	clgv	ener2: in your example you want to replace it with `reduce`
06:57	Bronsa	ener2: also struct maps have been deprecated in favour of records for years
06:57	llasram	Aaaand the `conj` onto `output` is treating it like something mutable, when instead it will yield a new persistent value each time, never accumulating anything
06:58	ener2	llasram: yeah forgot setting
06:58	clgv	ener2: llasram comment is the reason why you want a `reduce` there ;)
06:59	llasram	And destructuring -- your highest-level `let` could be written as `(let [[symbol path tw th ft] pair] ...)`
06:59	llasram	In fact, you could ditch the `let` entirly and stick the whole binding form in the `doseq`
06:59	ener2	hmm you can't set! into let variable?
06:59	llasram	Oh dear no
06:59	ener2	I come from CL background so...
06:59	llasram	We are polite and functional around here
06:59	ener2	well that is all and dandy but not all the time :)
06:59	clgv	ener2: yeah you should forget how you' program in the "mutable world" for now ;)
07:00	llasram	As clgv suggested, a `reduce` is probably what you want, "mutating" via iterative application to successive return values
07:01	ener2	hmm, unless closure has yield...
07:01	llasram	Also, you can directly iterate over arrays -- no need to access by index
07:01	llasram	ener2: OOC what resource/s are you learning from?
07:02	ener2	llasram: google and right now finished watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mbcYxHO0nM
07:03	ener2	how will reduce help in this case?
07:03	ener2	I need to basically flatten array of arrays into list
07:04	llasram	I'd suggest checking out one of the introductory books (like the O'Reilly one -- there are others, but I can vouch for that one). Even if you have a Lisp background, introducing the functional stuff can be helpful
07:04	llasram	Well, we were saying `reduce` because of the accumulation you have in the most-nested form form of your loops, but
07:05	ener2	in lisp I would accumunalte into list, either with setf into it or loop append/loop collect ...
07:05	llasram	You may just want to directly accumulate a lazy seq...
07:05	llasram	What is trgs? A 2-dimensional array?
07:05	ener2	yes
07:05	ener2	2-dimensional java array
07:06	llasram	Try replacing the whole thing with (mapcat seq trgs) :-)
07:08	ener2	hmm interesting
07:08	ener2	it seems to work
07:09	ener2	I guess (seq java-array) returns list containing that array content?
07:12	clgv	ener2: almost it returns a specialized sequence but it only matters that it is a sequence
07:14	clgv	ener2: you can checkout http://www.braveclojure.com/
07:15	ener2	clgv: thanks
07:15	ener2	I am really fond of common lisp (even made thesis about it) but I have to work in java in company, so I am trying some crazy things (like this :P)
07:19	clgv	ener2: well clojure fits perfectly in this scenario ;)
07:22	CookedGryphon	can anyone think of a neat way to express "first of the following statements to fulfil this predicate", ideally short circuiting like and/or
07:23	CookedGryphon	and i want the value of the thing, not the value of the predicate
07:23	opqdonut	I often have (defn find-first [p s] (first (filter p s)))
07:24	CookedGryphon	yeah, I have that option or a load of nested ifs, neither of which I'm 100% happy with
07:24	CookedGryphon	as if the first one matches, I shouldn't have to calculate the second
07:27	ener2	CookedGryphon: well I don't know about closure but it is possible in lisp so it might be
07:27	ener2	if you find how, you can wrap it in macro for something easier to use
07:28	ener2	you nca use throw/catch
07:28	ener2	*can
07:28	ener2	and build macro around it
07:30	john2x_	CookedGryphon: I think opqdonut's suggestion does what you need? filter is lazy, so it it will just calculate up to the first match
07:30	CookedGryphon	john2x_: yes, but I have fewer than 32 items in the list and each is expensive to compute individually
07:30	CookedGryphon	and so laziness gives me no benefit
07:31	CookedGryphon	it doesn't matter, I'll just take the hit and if it's a problem rewrite it with if-lets
07:31	ener2	kinda shame clojure does not have function exist as in return-from <block> value ...
07:31	ener2	*exits
07:31	opqdonut	CookedGryphon: can't you call seq to unchunk the sequence?
07:32	clgv	CookedGryphon: expensive item calculation where you possibly dont need each item is exactly one of the shining use cases for lazy sequences ;)
07:32	opqdonut	err, no, I'm raving
07:33	opqdonut	but anyway, use a non-chunked sequence
07:33	opqdonut	see e.g. seq1 in http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12412038/in-clojure-are-lazy-seqs-always-chunked
07:33	clgv	CookedGryphon: you should avoid chunked sequences though, e.g. no (range n) but you can use (take n (iterate inc 0))
07:34	CookedGryphon	I think I have a better solution,
07:34	CookedGryphon	I'm just going to rewrite my predicate to return the value or nil
07:34	CookedGryphon	and then use or
07:35	CookedGryphon	which looks neat, conveys the intention properly, and has no lazy sequence overheads or chunking uncertainties
07:35	clgv	but wasnt part of the problem that you have more than 4 items?
07:38	IceD^	question - I have clojure app (http api) handling ~150K rps, each request in the end will consume some amount of some resource - {:r1 100 :r2 200 :r3 100500} - there are ~10K resources. request processing code will build list of resources that could be consumed and will try to consume each of them sequentually till success (e.g. request can [[:r1 200], [:r2 10]])
07:40	IceD^	so question is - what to use to handle this mutable state - e.g. refs, external kv, ...?
07:42	IceD^	on typical load most "popular" resources can be accessed ~10K tps
08:05	danielszmulewicz	,(clojure.walk/macroexpand-all '(-> (read) (eval) (println) (loop-forever)))
08:05	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.walk>
08:06	danielszmulewicz	,(require 'clojure.walk)
08:06	clojurebot	nil
08:06	danielszmulewicz
08:06	danielszmulewicz	,(clojure.walk/macroexpand-all '(-> (read) (eval) (println) (loop-forever)))
08:06	clojurebot	(loop-forever (println (eval (read))))
08:06	danielszmulewicz	,(macroexpand '(-> c (+ 3) (* 2)))
08:06	clojurebot	(* (+ c 3) 2)
08:07	danielszmulewicz	,(clojure.core/macroexpand '(-> c (+ 3) (* 2)))
08:07	clojurebot	(* (+ c 3) 2)
08:09	danielszmulewicz	,(clojure.walk/macroexpand-all '(-> routes
08:09	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
08:09	danielszmulewicz	(wrap-transit-params)
08:09	danielszmulewicz	(wrap-datomic (env :db-url))
08:09	danielszmulewicz	(wrap-defaults api-defaults)))
08:10	danielszmulewicz	oops
08:16	noncom\|2	i need to pass a form to a macro, and then return it as read but not evaled. however, whatever i try, the form gets evaled inside the macro. how could i acheive the desired result ?
08:17	noncom\|2	like (defmacro m [form] `(.doSomethingJava java-object ~form))
08:17	noncom\|2	the java method should receive the actual form, which is read, but not evaled
08:17	noncom\|2	?
08:17	ohpauleez	You don't want to escape the form, potentially
08:18	noncom\|2	what do you mean? i should not use ` ?
08:18	ohpauleez	not use ~
08:19	ohpauleez	wait, nvm. That would take the actually symbol form
08:19	noncom\|2	nope.. it simply treats "form" as a symbol
08:19	noncom\|2	yeah
08:19	noncom\|2	so i am still wandering.. :)
08:19	noncom\|2	so it gets inside the macro read, but not evaled..
08:19	noncom\|2	theeeeen...
08:19	noncom\|2	?
08:20	noncom\|2	i think that ~ implies evaluation..
08:20	noncom\|2	am i right ?
08:20	noncom\|2	i can make all work if i pass a manually quoted form
08:21	noncom\|2	but these additional manual quotes will be annoying if i get to many calls like that..
08:21	ohpauleez	quote it
08:21	ohpauleez	like this: (defmacro a [f] `(prn '~f))
08:21	noncom\|2	wow, gotta try now..
08:22	noncom\|2	umm, it still evals the form
08:23	noncom\|2	but quotes the result
08:23	ohpauleez	On your repl (or in a comment block), use the code I pasted above
08:23	ohpauleez	and call: (a (inc 1)), you'll see "(inc 1)"
08:24	ohpauleez	that's not what you want?
08:24	noncom\|2	oh wait, maybe i made a mistake, just a sec
08:25	noncom\|2	ohpauleez: right, i made a mistake, i had "defn" instead of "defmacro" :) your last proposed solution works just fine!
08:25	noncom\|2	thank you
08:25	ohpauleez	Excellt!
08:25	clojurebot	no, thank you: http://nedroid.com/2010/11/thanks-for-reading-my-comics/
08:25	ohpauleez	np, more than happy to help!
08:26	ohpauleez	wow, I think I need to charge my keyboard, it's dropping letter
08:26	noncom\|2	also i think you're on mac
08:26	noncom\|2	am i right ?
08:26	ohpauleez	Correct
08:26	ohpauleez	(currently)
08:27	noncom\|2	heh.. sometimes the symbol gets inserted by mac
08:27	noncom\|2	instead of spaces
08:27	noncom\|2	idk why
08:27	noncom\|2	sometimes when my boss, who's on mac, writes me in skype, his messages are full of this symbol
08:27	noncom\|2	so weird :)
08:28	noncom\|2	the symbol is a dot in the middle of the line (not in the bottom, like the normal dot, more like the dot-the-multiplication-sign)
08:53	llasram	CookedGryphon: scrolling back, you could also use an eager version of `first-filter`: https://gist.github.com/llasram/995be648aa22e0630ce8
08:59	the-kenny	ClojureScript/Closure Question: I have (def ^:export enable-validation false) in a project. I'd like to be able to set this at runtime from the js-console (or some <script> tag) to enable/disable validation for production builds or on-demand. The problem: Closure inlines the `false' in the functions which are responsible validation. I need some kind of ^:volatile meta-data for this use-case, but couldn't
08:59	the-kenny	find anything yet. Any ideas?
09:00	the-kenny	(If there isn't anything like this, I'd just check for some property on the window object, but I find that quite ugly)
09:04	dnolen_	the-kenny: yeah ^:export doesn't work for configurable properties - that why we generally export functions to do this like set-print-fn!
09:05	the-kenny	dnolen_: That sounds reasonable, thanks
09:09	clgv	llasram: linter alert! please use `when` ;)
09:15	the-kenny	dnolen_: Btw. we're running our application built entirely in Om in production for some time now. We're super happy with it. As I already said in Krakow: Thanks for Om :)
09:15	TimMc	clgv: or add a nil alternative clause
09:16	TimMc	I've been coming around to technomancy's view on if/when.
09:16	dnolen_	the-kenny: awesome! :)
09:17	daniel___	can anyone explain to me when and why transducers could be better than reducers?
09:17	daniel___	they seem to accomplish more or less the same, but with arguments in a different order
09:18	daniel___	and are built into code as a one-less arity
09:18	daniel___	core*
09:18	dnolen_	daniel___: reducers aren't reusable in the same way
09:18	dnolen_	daniel___: transducers can be composed via function composition and then applies to lazy sequences, core.async buffers etc.
09:19	dnolen_	not possible w/ reducers - and transducers subsume reducer behavior
09:19	daniel___	reducers can't also be composed?
09:19	clgv	TimMc: that view consists of adding unnecessary nils?
09:20	dnolen_	daniel___: not in the same way no.
09:20	daniel___	reducers you have to nest like (r/filter even? (r/map inc [...])) rather than comp
09:20	bhauman	Morning all. Are people generally using Webjars and serving them through ring for static client side js libs?
09:20	daniel___	reducers can be composed with comp too
09:21	bhauman	Or are there downsides like libs not getting downloaded when deploying to prod?
09:21	dnolen_	daniel___: but you must supply something concrete, the interface just doesn't work for something like core.async buffers for example
09:22	dnolen_	daniel___: in the transducer case the channel can take the transducer stack since there are no assumptions about how it will actually be used.
09:22	dnolen_	s/the channel/the core.async channel
09:24	dnolen_	daniel___: fundamentally reducers must take a reducible thing (in the Clojure sense), not true for transducers.
09:27	TimMc	clgv: Depends on your definition of "unnecessary". Swearjure, for instance, eschews unnecessary alphanumerics...
09:28	daniel___	dnolen_: it's a little clearer, thanks
09:29	thesaskwatch	I have a question - I have an app which is supposed to read an external config file (which willl be clojure code). So I want to read it dynamically but also pass some values to it. How to do it the best way?
09:29	clgv	TimMc: the context was clojure :P
09:30	alandipert	bhauman, we have the https://github.com/tailrecursion/hoplon/tree/master/vendor system for boot-based cljs projects, with conventions that amene to gclosure etc
09:30	the-kenny	thesaskwatch: so you want to eval the code in the config file?
09:30	clgv	TimMc: I'd hesitate to add additional (unnecessary) noise
09:30	thesaskwatch	the-kenny: yes .. it's supposed to be a config which returns data (kind of dsl)
09:32	thesaskwatch	the-kenny: to be more specific - it's a program which provisions some heroku componens - I want to separate configuration from execution engine
09:33	TimMc	clgv: The idea is to have "when" signal "side-effects ahead!"
09:34	TimMc	I'm the wrong person to defend this idea, though.
09:35	clgv	TimMc: well it also signals you did not forget the else-clause ;)
09:36	enn	Is HoneySQL is the best current option for generating SQL? In particular, is there anything out there that already supports window functions?
09:39	TimMc	clgv: I think that's the part that attracts me more.
09:39	thesaskwatch	the-kenny: however if I eval it - how can I pass some external values to it?
09:43	thesaskwatch	Ok, I guess this is the way: http://stackoverflow.com/a/8630122/343699
09:48	llasram	clgv: `when` is for side-effects :-p
09:49	clgv	,(doc when)
09:49	clojurebot	"([test & body]); Evaluates test. If logical true, evaluates body in an implicit do."
09:49	clgv	llasram: not by contract :P
09:50	TimMc	meh
09:50	clgv	llasram: I have a lot of when-usage in absence of side-effects ;)
09:50	llasram	Sure, but by increasingly-common convention; which convention I happen to follow
09:51	hyPiRion	I tend to mutate vectors, as there's no contract saying I cannot do so
09:52	clgv	if you think about it there probably should have been (when pred expr) and a (dowhen pred expr1 ... exprN)
09:53	hyPiRion	,(let [a [0 1 2]] (aset (.tail a) 0 10) (conj a 1))
09:53	clojurebot	[10 1 2 1]
09:56	llasram	(inc hyPiRion)
09:56	lazybot	⇒ 42
09:59	TimMc	,(let [a [0]] (aset (.tail a) 0 a) a)
09:59	clojurebot	[[[[[[[[[[#]]]]]]]]]]
09:59	TimMc	Suck it, haskell!
09:59	TimMc	I can tie a knot too.
10:00	hyPiRion	hehe
10:01	clgv	,(binding [print-level 100] (let [a [0]] (println (aset (.tail a) 0 a) a)))
10:01	clojurebot	[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[#]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[#]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]...
10:25	mikerod	hyPiRion: I still don't really get why these fields are public
10:26	hyPiRion	mikerod: rrb-tree compat afaik
10:26	hyPiRion	want to share structure with it
10:26	mikerod	hyPiRion: share with what?
10:26	mikerod	another core datastructure?
10:27	Bronsa	mikerod: a contrib datastructure
10:27	mikerod	Bronsa: oh..
10:27	Bronsa	mikerod: I mean, rrb-tree is a contrib ds, it needs to share structure with clojure vectors
10:29	mikerod	Bronsa: this sounds like a strange reason to make a public field on a core data structure of the main language :P
10:30	Bronsa	mikerod: that public field is an implementation detail and not part of the public API anyway
10:30	Bronsa	you're not supposed to use it
10:30	mikerod	I think that is fairly clear.
10:30	mikerod	I just pretend it is not there
10:30	mikerod	However, I'd hope others do to.
10:31	Bronsa	mikerod: nobody but TimMc and hyPiRion know about that field.
10:31	hyPiRion	mikerod: Well, I use it for the exact same reason as the rrb-tree impl.
10:31	hyPiRion	haha
10:32	mikerod	Which is for - efficiency?
10:33	hyPiRion	mikerod: right. I'm implementing a data structure which can be efficiently converted from a persistent vector, and uses same structural sharing
10:34	mikerod	hyPiRion: hmm, I see
10:36	sdegutis	Hi.
10:36	sdegutis	"Caused by: java.util.concurrent.RejectedExecutionException: Task java.util.concurrent.FutureTask@4fc5fa85 rejected from java.util.concurrent.ThreadPoolExecutor@51cf0670[Shutting down, pool size = 3, active threads = 3, queued tasks = 0, completed tasks = 94]"
10:37	oskarkv	I have a function that returns code, that I usually use inside a macro. But if I want to skip the macro, can I just eval the result of the function (the code)? I think I remember that someone said that using eval like that is not exactly the same thing, because the environment might be different, or something.
10:37	sdegutis	Please help. Thanks?
10:39	Bronsa	sdegutis: nobody can help you with just that exception line and no context
10:39	sdegutis	Thanks.
10:39	hyPiRion	sdegutis: we need some context
10:39	sdegutis	Yes.
10:39	llasram	sdegutis: BTW, have you considered providing some context?
10:40	sdegutis	Hi.
10:40	llasram	:-)
10:40	sdegutis	This is caused by a failed Datomic query on a background thread.
10:40	sdegutis	I'll give you the relevant line of code if you promise to give it back when you're done.
10:40	sdegutis	Because we need it for our website to run.
10:41	llasram	oskarkv: Well, compiling a macro-expansion vs explicit eval uses nearly the same mechanisms but with very different semantic implications. What exactly are you trying to achieve?
10:43	sdegutis	Here is a secret gist.
10:43	sdegutis	https://gist.github.com/sdegutis/00a9cdecc632abd12f3b
10:43	sdegutis	I will now change to the nick starlord.
10:43	starlord	Now I am using it.
10:44	llasram	starlord: But now you've changed color :-(
10:44	starlord	Yes. That is part of my special powers.
10:44	starlord	But don't worry it's just an optimal allusion.
10:44	starlord	I also own star-lord and star_lord.
10:47	oskarkv	llasram How about something like this https://www.refheap.com/a5c6a638ef7b0733f0ebefdf5
10:47	oskarkv	my internet connection is very bad, took forever to paste that :P
10:48	peeja	Hey, folks. I just went through the two Om tutorials on its wiki, and I'm looking for some good Om code to read, particularly code that persists data back to the server-side. Any suggestions?
10:48	starlord	Thanks in advance.
10:50	oskarkv	llasram it just seems unnecessary to do use the version with a macro. Wasn't sure if the version with eval is the same thing.
10:50	oskarkv	-do
10:54	maravillas	peeja: about halfway through the om readme is a list of applications written using om
10:55	llasram	Oh, top-level `eval`. Yeah, AFAIK that should be pretty much equivalent to defining a macro then immediately using it at top-level.
10:56	starlord	Hello.
10:56	llasram	^ oskarkv on the last, obv
10:56	AlwaysBCoding	peeja: https://github.com/sgrove/omchaya ?
10:56	starlord	Is there some reason that might cause me to get an exception when in the background thread but not in the frontground thread?
10:57	llasram	starlord: Did someone call `shutdown-agents`?
10:57	starlord	Not beforehand, no.
10:57	starlord	Oh wait, yes.
10:57	llasram	Well there you go
10:57	starlord	Thanks in advance llasram.
10:57	starlord	You've solved it for me :)
10:58	oskarkv	llasram ok, thanks. Just out of curiosity, when is `eval` not equivalent to normal evaluation?
10:59	starlord	Well, this solves the latest mystery. But it doesn't solve the original one.
10:59	starlord	I think maybe it's just because Datomic is a giant hoarder.
11:00	llasram	oskarkv: Oh, when you call it at runtime (for whatever "runtime" means in your application)
11:00	alandipert	oskarkv, eval'd forms don't capture locals is one big difference
11:00	alandipert	,(let [x 1] (eval 'x))
11:00	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: x in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
11:01	oskarkv	I see
11:01	oskarkv	Thanks
11:04	zot	heeeeello, within my .lein/profiles.clj, if i have multiple :jvm-opts, should it be of the form [["-Dfoo"] ["-Dbar"]], or something else?
11:08	oskarkv	zot I think ["op1" "op2"]
11:10	peeja	AlwaysBCoding: That looks perfect, thanks!
11:12	zot	oskarkv: tnx!
11:18	clgv	zot, oskarv: did that change? previously it was just a string with all options
11:19	clgv	ah no, you are right, a vector of strings per parameter
11:19	oskarkv	I dunno. I tried it yesterday and it worked.
11:30	eric_normand	anyone know of any Clojure consulting opportunities?
11:32	clgv	eric_normand: you want to consult companies how to use clojure? or you want someone to consult you?
11:33	eric_normand	clgv: I will consult them. Not necessarily training. Also contract work.
11:34	clgv	eric_normand: hmm the cognitect people will know some, but they are your competition ;)
11:34	clgv	*competitors
11:34	justin_smith	I have a retainer doing clojure work for my ex employer (after a couple of years of being a full time clojure dev, so it's a downgrade)
11:44	starlord	clgv: they aren't /quite/ competitors, as they can't take on /every/ client, and must turn some away; i.e. there is room for taking up their scraps :)
11:45	eric_normand	I've heard mixed things about Clojure consulting
11:45	eric_normand	some say there isn't much work
11:45	eric_normand	some say there's a ton
11:45	starlord	I personally would not use Clojure for web apps anymore, now that I've worked on a Clojure web app for the last 2 years.
11:45	clgv	starlord: maybe, maybe not...
11:45	starlord	I would just work on Rails.
11:46	clgv	starlord: why?
11:46	starlord	Because in Rails all the web-related functionality is done for you, all you have to do is bring the application logic; in Clojure you have to reinvent every wheel, hoping some are already invented for you.
11:47	starlord	And to be honest, I have not found Clojure's unique features (homoiconicity, macros, immutability, threads) to be significantly more helpful than using Ruby for solving most problems.
11:47	clgv	starlord: ah ok, so you need the ORM stuff and associated features?
11:48	mgaare	starlord: what libs were you using in your clojure web stack?
11:48	rboyd	starlord: did you do rails before your clojure web project? on a large scale?
11:49	starlord	clgv: no, but for example Rails has many security features built-in which in Clojure we do not have equivalent libraries for yet.
11:49	starlord	mgaare: ring, compojure, hiccup, garden, datomic, probably some others
11:50	starlord	rboyd: I've consulted on very large, ugly Rails projects.
11:50	starlord	rboyd: But the ugliness was not caused by the largeness; the apps would have been large either way. The ugliness was simply because they were implemented in a hurry.
11:51	rboyd	still waiting to see a large elegant rails codebase
11:51	starlord	Right now we have a mycompany.web namespace and a mycompany.features namespace; if I were to port it to Rails, the .web namespace would just be Rails controllers and models and such, and the .features namespace would be somewhere under lib/ or whatever it's called.
11:52	mgaare	starlord: I've found that compojure/ring tend to get ungainly above a certain size, but liberator makes things quite a bit nicer
11:58	justin_smith	so, one of the lead csound devs is writing a synthesis engine, inspired by supercollider with similar planned features to overtone, in clojure
11:59	justin_smith	the difference from overtone is that clojure will be used not just to define "instruments" staticaly and send events, but clojure will run inside the synthesis units themselves
11:59	TimMc	What's wrong with SC and overtone, one might ask.
11:59	justin_smith	see my last
11:59	TimMc	hmm
12:00	justin_smith	an actual programming language inside the synth
12:00	TimMc	Why not Lua? :-P
12:00	justin_smith	right now you have two languages - a weak one to run synths, and a powerful one on the client (controlling) side
12:00	justin_smith	csound has lua embedded, so that is an existing option
12:00	TimMc	(I don't actually know Lua, but it seems popular for fast and lean scripting.)
12:01	justin_smith	but this way we can use clojure, if we like it, and it's the full stack
12:01	starlord	mgaare: thanks, looking into it
12:02	justin_smith	TimMc: anyway, I find it interesting because Steven Yi knows his shit with audio synthesis (being one of the lead devs on csound for a while now). He has also been adding clojure inspired features to csound, maybe this is part of a master plan of some sort
12:04	justin_smith	TimMc: my experience, which I think is part of Yi's motivation, is that you have to juggle three layers of implementation to do serious work in most audio synthesis languages: the engine/plugins, written in C/C++, the synthesis language, made by chaining said plugins (not a full language by any means), and the control language, some kind of scripting language for building calls to and creation of said chains of plugins
12:05	justin_smith	TimMc: there is something very attractive about just using a reasonable language and flattening the three levels (if the language can handle all these roles)
12:06	justin_smith	TimMc: for example, in overtone you have macros that look like clojure code, but aren't, they are actually a DSL that emulates clojure but builds chains of plugins to run in the supercollider engine process
12:07	justin_smith	there's an overhead to remembering what's clojure and what's a DSL over scsynth
12:13	martinklepsch	anyone experience using nth-child selectors with garden? I can't require garden.selectors that contains some nth-child related things
12:13	TimMc	justin_smith: Interesting. I haven't played enough with Overtone to run into that.
12:25	starlord	Is there a channel-specific way to hide joins/quits/parts on the server-side?
12:27	amalloy	hide them on the server side? that doesn't make sense. the server has to tell you who's in the room; it's your client who decides what to print on your screen
12:27	starlord	Thanks.
12:28	starlord	I should edit my client then, becuase it only allows this toggle universally, not per-channel.
12:28	starlord	That resolves my question. Thanks.
12:30	TimMc	starlord: If you're using irssi it looks like /ignore -network freenode #clojure JOINS PARTS QUITS NICKS
12:30	eric_normand	does anyone know how to print out the profile names that are being pulled in with lein?
12:30	starlord	TimMc: Thank you in advance. I am not using irssi but thank you anyway.
12:30	starlord	I should use irssi, but I don't own a slicehost account anymore.
12:31	TimMc	The syntax may be similar for your client.
12:31	TimMc	(particularly the level names)
12:31	starlord	I have tried it and saw no effect. I will perhaps ask in #limechat.
12:31	starlord	Thank you for your time in advance. Thanks.
12:33	starlord	What is a good alternative to slicehost for hosting your own persistent irssi between two computers these days? Thanks in advance, Regards.
12:33	starlord	Oh wait this is off topic now.
12:33	starlord	My apologies.
12:36	amalloy	starlord: you may be looking for what's called a bouncer. znc is a good one
12:37	starlord	Thank you amalloy in retrospect.
13:30	andonilsson	is it only possible to have one binding in an if-let?
13:31	andonilsson	...and if I want more local bindings I should put them in a separate let, within the if-let
13:31	tanzoniteblack	andonilsson: correct
13:35	andonilsson	guess that makes sense
13:35	andonilsson	thx tanzoniteblack
13:35	justin_smith	,(if-let [[a & bs] (range 5)] bs)
13:35	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4)
13:35	justin_smith	yes, destructuring works in if-let
13:36	justin_smith	wait, nobody mentioned destructuring
13:36	justin_smith	clearly I am out to lunch
13:36	starlord	Destructuring is probably the one feature I'd miss the most if I were to go back to Rails.
13:36	andonilsson	justin_smith: that might actually work in my case...I think
13:37	tanzoniteblack	destructuring inside an if-let and cause things to not quite work like you might expect:
13:37	tanzoniteblack	,(if-let [[a b c d e f] (concat (range 5) [nil])] f)
13:37	clojurebot	nil
13:38	tanzoniteblack	which makes sense, since if-let is only testing a, but if you're expecting it to be checking for all of the args to be truthy you're going to have some bugs
13:38	technomancy	ruby has destructuring, kinda
13:38	andonilsson	in my case I have a re-find in my if-let, so it'll work for me
13:38	amalloy	tanzoniteblack: it's not testnig a; it's testing the entire sequence
13:38	amalloy	ie, testing that the sequence is neither nil nor false
13:39	tanzoniteblack	makes sense, thanks for the clarification amalloy
13:40	tanzoniteblack	,(if-let [[a b c d e f] (repeat 6 nil)] (boolean f))
13:40	clojurebot	false
13:45	splunk	anyone know how to get the name of anonymous fn? `(name (fn foo [] 42))`
13:46	starlord	Oh good question.
13:46	clgv	can I disable shrinking in test.check?
13:46	starlord	Another good one.
13:46	starlord	So far so good everyone, nice job.
13:47	Bronsa	splunk: you can, but that needs
13:47	Bronsa	splunk: but that needs to deal with how the compiler munges the generated classname
13:47	splunk	Bronsa: ah, so it won't be the symbol 'foo
13:47	Bronsa	splunk: why do you need it? the name of the anon fn is only usable from within the function
13:48	Bronsa	splunk: no, but ##(class (fn foo [])) you can get it back from this
13:48	lazybot	⇒ sandbox5671$eval14042$foo__14043
13:48	splunk	Bronsa: trying to construct the following. given (fn foo ..) => {:f <fn> :name 'foo}
13:48	justin_smith	,(if-let [[a & bs] (cons nil (range 5))] bs) ; tanzoniteblack it does not work like that
13:48	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4)
13:49	splunk	Bronsa: could do it with a custom macro, trying to avoid it
13:49	tanzoniteblack	justin_smith: yeah, amalloy pointed out that it's testing the entire sequence, not a
13:50	justin_smith	yeah, I'm still out to lunch, I see that now
13:50	splunk	Bronsa: or even just {'foo <fn>, 'bar <fn>}
13:50	amalloy	maybe you should have some actual lunch, justin_smith
13:51	Bronsa	splunk: (defn fn-name [f] (symbol (clojure.repl/demunge (first (clojure.string/split (last (clojure.string/split (.getName ^Class (class f)) #"\$")) #"__"))))) should work
13:51	amalloy	Bronsa: (class f) is already hinted to return Class; no need to hint it there
13:51	Bronsa	amalloy: oh, yeah
13:52	amalloy	but more importantly i'd lean towards "dude are you sure you really want to do this, it is a super-weird thing" and not "here is some gibberish you can paste into your program that will work most of the time"
13:52	llasram	(inc amalloy)
13:52	lazybot	⇒ 156
13:52	splunk	Bronsa: you just blew my mind. Thanks! Will consider this carefully vs. the macro vs. none of the above.
13:53	arohner	if you're going to go the macro route, another option is to stick the 'real' name in metadata
13:53	llasram	splunk: OOC, why do you want these names?
13:54	technomancy	it's super annoying that the name isn't already in the metadata
13:54	splunk	arohner: thanks, I've been looking at metadata more and more, I don't have strong understanding of how it works (e.g. if it's associated with the symbol rather than the value, what if the values is bound to a different symbol??)
13:54	technomancy	though the arglists would be more useful than the name
13:54	llasram	Well, otherwise each instance would need to have a separate copy of the metadata map in case some one mut... Oh, wait
13:55	amalloy	Bronsa: clojure.repl/demunge is nice, though. i didn't know about that. but there are multiple munging schemes the compiler uses, right, for different scenarios? like the munging for a function name is different from the munging for the field of a deftype, i think
13:55	technomancy	<3 vary-meta
13:55	amalloy	i guess technically it should be spelled mungeing
13:56	arohner	splunk: I'm confused about your use of 'symbol' there. fns are just objects. There's no binding unless you use def or let
13:56	llasram	splunk: metadata is implemented via the `clojure.lang.{IMeta,IObj}` JVM interfaces. Any JVM type can carry metadata by implementing those interfaces
13:57	splunk	llasram: long story short: (defn make-ring-handler [db other-dep] (fn my-handler [request] <response-goes-here>)) ;; would like 'my-handler to be somehow associcated with the returned fn
13:58	splunk	the point of the gymnastics is so that `db` and `other-dep` are closed over in the handler
13:58	Bronsa	amalloy: TBH I don't think deftype fields get munged at all
13:58	arohner	splunk: I'd use metadata
13:58	technomancy	(inc metadata)
13:58	lazybot	⇒ 1
13:58	technomancy	huh, just one?
13:59	llasram	splunk: Ok, but again why? Where are you intending to use the name?
13:59	amalloy	Bronsa: they do
13:59	amalloy	,(deftype Foo [-_$*x])
13:59	clojurebot	sandbox.Foo
13:59	amalloy	,(seq (.getFields Foo))
13:59	clojurebot	(#<Field public final java.lang.Object sandbox.Foo.__$_STAR_x>)
13:59	amalloy	it's not even a reversible mungeing: you can't tell the _ apart from the -
14:00	Bronsa	amalloy: uh, ok
14:00	llasram	amalloy: Sure you can. '_' is culturally verboten in all identifiers
14:00	jonasen	Bronsa: That was a great read on the mailing list. You've done an amazing amount of work on these libraries!
14:00	amalloy	oh, llasram. treasure your youthful innocence
14:00	TimMc	snake_case_forever
14:01	llasram	wow, typing
14:01	ToxicFrog	snake-cases?
14:01	Bronsa	jonasen: thanks!
14:01	llasram	ToxicFrog: cf, typing
14:01	amalloy	,(do (require 'clojure.repl) (clojure.repl/demunge "__$_STAR_x"))
14:01	clojurebot	"--/*x"
14:02	arohner	ToxicFrog: foo_bar, rather than foo-bar or FooBar
14:02	hiredman	metadata on functions is terrible, don't do it
14:02	TEttinger	gah, amalloy!
14:02	amalloy	demunge is super wrong for deftype fields. which is fine, since the docstring says it's for lambda names. just noting that there is another way to munge and it's not easy to reverse
14:03	Bronsa	amalloy: I was confused because (deftype x [-x]) (.--x (x. 1)) works, but it obviously works because field names in field access gets munged too
14:04	amalloy	,(defrecord Bar [])
14:04	clojurebot	sandbox.Bar
14:04	splunk	arohner: thanks will check it out. disregard my comment about metadata on symbols, I was keying off http://clojure.org/metadata, which says it applies to symbols, or collections, but `(meta ^{:k "v"} (fn [] 42))` appears to totally work
14:04	Bronsa	also there are some places in the compiler where munging is just s/-/_/ but I can't remember where. probably just for namespaces
14:04	amalloy	,(.---meta (Bar.))
14:04	clojurebot	nil
14:04	amalloy	,(.-meta (Bar.))
14:04	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: meta for class sandbox.Bar>
14:04	arohner	splunk: probably old docs. meta got added to fns in 1.2? 1.3?
14:04	hiredman	splunk: don't do it
14:05	hiredman	metadata on functions is terrible
14:05	arohner	hiredman: could you provide reasons rather than just asserting?
14:05	arohner	splunk: oh, one more question, is this just for debugging informative purposes, or are you running production code based on (meta f)?
14:07	splunk	llasram: arohner: long story short, I have a tree of functions, I am doing a tree traversal where I want to say "find fn in tree with id 'foo"
14:07	hiredman	arohner: metadata is implemented for functions as values, but functions as values for things like equality is very complex, the with-meta contract returns "new" value with the extra metadata, doing that for functions (bits of compiled byte code that close over state) is problematic
14:07	hiredman	arohner: the way it is implemented in clojure also leaves a lot to be desired
14:07	dopamean	ive got sort of noob question if anyone is up for it.
14:08	amalloy	~ask
14:08	clojurebot	The Ask To Ask protocol wastes more bandwidth than any version of the Ask protocol, so just ask your question.
14:08	hiredman	,(let [f (fn [] 1) y (with-meta f {:a 1})] [(class f) (class y)])
14:08	clojurebot	[sandbox$eval187$f__188 clojure.lang.AFunction$1]
14:08	llasram	splunk: I'd recommend just associating a keyword name with the fn object when you build the tree.
14:08	arohner	splunk: that sounds.... strange
14:08	dopamean	thanks amalloy
14:08	arohner	hiredman: thanks
14:08	hiredman	metadata is almost always the wrong answer
14:08	dopamean	so ive got a vector of maps
14:08	llasram	splunk: No need to have the function object itself know its name, especially since that ties the name of the object implementation to the name w/in the context of your tree
14:08	ToxicFrog	hiredman: I like metadata :( it's been quite good to me in spellcast
14:09	Bronsa	also functions with metadata print horribly ##(with-meta (fn x []) {})
14:09	lazybot	⇒ #< clojure.lang.AFunction$1@500d3200>
14:09	ToxicFrog	dopamean: a good start.
14:09	hiredman	given the contract of with-meta those instances should be equal, but given the equality semantics of functions, they are not
14:09	arohner	it's nice to have, but I don't use meta "in production"
14:09	hiredman	,(let [f (fn [] 1) y (with-meta f {:a 1})] (= (class f) (class y)))
14:09	clojurebot	false
14:09	dopamean	all of them have the same keys in them and i want to return one of the maps where a given key returns a particular value
14:09	amalloy	i'm kinda bummed about that, bronsa, since i thought a ticked of mine improving the printing of that had been applied
14:09	technomancy	hiredman: that's an argument against calling vary-meta on functions and keeping the original function around
14:09	splunk	llasram: yeah that seems like the safe option, was hoping to not have to re-specify the name, but totally fine
14:09	technomancy	hiredman: adding metadata to a function and discarding the original doesn't run into those problems
14:10	amalloy	,(with-meta (fn x []) {})
14:10	Bronsa	amalloy: it has, lazybot runs 1.4 though
14:10	clojurebot	#<clojure.lang.AFunction$1@597692>
14:10	hiredman	technomancy: it still does
14:10	amalloy	ah, yes. it prints slightly better in real life
14:10	Bronsa	amalloy: but I was talking about the lack of "x" in the class name, not about the extra space
14:10	dopamean	something like... [{"name" "nick"} {"name" "max"} {"name" "alan"}]. so if the name is alan i want to get back that entire map
14:10	hiredman	technomancy: you get an AFunction wrapper around the original function with all the problems of wrappers
14:10	technomancy	like say you have a macro that returns a function and you want to know the arities. doing that without metadata is terrible.
14:11	amalloy	dopamean: (first (filter #(= "alan" (get % "name")) maps))
14:11	TEttinger	damn that was fast amalloy
14:11	amalloy	although of course if you're doing lookups like this often, you should use a better data structure than a list of maps
14:11	TEttinger	(inc amalloy)
14:11	lazybot	⇒ 157
14:11	splunk	arohner: yeah it's weird, but I'm playing with the concept that web routes are just a tree, which sort of makes a lot of sense to me. Similar to this: https://github.com/elliot42/siesta
14:11	dopamean	thank amalloy
14:11	dopamean	ill play around with that
14:11	amalloy	TEttinger: i was bummed i couldn't use (comp #{"alan"} :name) because his maps have string keys
14:11	hiredman	technomancy: given that by definition metadata isn't considered when checking equality, should function arity information be part of the metadata?
14:12	technomancy	hiredman: that kind of question only makes sense if you have sensible equality semantics for functions to begin with
14:13	hiredman	technomancy: metadata on values only makes sense if you have sensible equality semantics for the values
14:13	hiredman	which clojure doesn't for functions, so metadata on functions is a terrible idea
14:13	technomancy	that's an interesting assertion, but it appears groundless
14:13	ToxicFrog	amalloy: along similar lines, I keep getting tripped up by (some p xs) returning (p x) rather than x when it finds something.
14:13	hiredman	which one?
14:14	amalloy	ToxicFrog: yes, i hate the contract for 'some, but it's been water under the bridge for a long time
14:14	technomancy	the notion that metadata doesn't work with identity-based equality
14:14	technomancy	you can put metadata on atoms, and they have identity-based equality
14:14	hiredman	technomancy: you skipped part of the assertion
14:14	hiredman	technomancy: "metadata on values ..."
14:14	Bronsa	hiredman: we often use metadata as a way to work-around the lack of mutiple values returns, in that context metadata on functions makes sense
14:15	justin_smith	dopamean: amalloy: if doing frequent "name" lookups, there is always ##(group-by #(get % "name") [{"name" "bob"} {"name" "joe"} {"name" "al"}])
14:15	lazybot	⇒ {"bob" [{"name" "bob"}], "joe" [{"name" "joe"}], "al" [{"name" "al"}]}
14:15	hiredman	technomancy: clojure effectively has two parallel metadata systems for values and identities
14:15	hiredman	functions are plugged in to the value system
14:15	hiredman	in a way that makes things terrible
14:15	technomancy	hiredman: this seems like a distinction you're inventing to defend your position
14:15	hiredman	technomancy: it isn't alter-meta vs. vary-meta
14:16	hiredman	Bronsa: nah, that sounds pretty terrible too
14:17	Bronsa	hiredman: I partially agree, but I find it more useful than I find it "terrible"
14:17	technomancy	hiredman: oh, ok... interesting. there isn't any overlap.
14:17	technomancy	I assumed vary-meta worked on identities, but it blows up
14:18	technomancy	but I still agree with Bronsa
14:18	hiredman	Bronsa: using binding to setup a return stack seems better
14:18	technomancy	it's a much better way of expressing introspectable arity than the alternatives
14:19	Bronsa	hiredman: and use a map of fn -> value? I never thought about it
14:19	amalloy	Bronsa: not everything you want to return can support metadata anyway. what if i want to "multiple return" the values 1 and 2?
14:19	Bronsa	hiredman: I guess that could be an ok alternative, but that assumes you always have the thread-local binding set
14:19	hiredman	the problem is, functions are sort of values, have value metadata, but identity eqaulity due to Entscheidungsproblem
14:20	amalloy	Bronsa: well, you need something like multiple-value-bind to establish the thread-local binding that's set!-able by the function you're calling
14:20	mthvedt	hiredman: i don’t think it’s neccesary to solve the decision problem to have a meaningful definition of function equality
14:20	Bronsa	amalloy: yeah obviously, I was just making a case for fns
14:20	hiredman	Bronsa: no, I mean, logcally returns happen on a stack, a returning function pushes a value to return on to the stack, the caller pops it off the return stack to consume it
14:20	Bronsa	amalloy: hiredman with metadata the caller doesn't need to worry or even know about the fn having metadata attached if it doesn't care about it
14:21	hiredman	so you use binding to steup a thread local stack, and called functions push extra return values to it, and calling functions pop them off
14:21	amalloy	Bronsa: indeed, using metadata for multiple returns is a scheme that's easy to invent. i've done it myself. i just don't like it very much
14:22	technomancy	if only destructuring worked with metadata
14:23	hiredman	the problem with metadata is it is so easy to (mis)use that people grab it and use it for whatever terrible purpose
14:29	technomancy	anyway, I think it's pretty clear that just because functions have identity-based equality doesn't mean that they're intended to act as reference types
14:30	starlord	technomancy: you are correct.
14:30	starlord	technomancy: equality for functions is a very controversial topic and not widely agreed upon; in short, do not rely on testing functions for equality.
14:30	starlord	technomancy: I hope that helps. Thanks in advance. Regards.
14:31	bbloom	starlord: wait, what's controversial?
14:32	starlord	bbloom: Correct.
14:32	bbloom	function equality is proven undecidable
14:32	starlord	bbloom: You are correct.
14:32	bbloom	and clojure functions are compiled, so structural equality doesn't make sense...
14:32	bbloom	and the default equality procedure is reference equality
14:33	bbloom	soooo seems like a total no-brainer to me...
14:33	clojurebot	Excuse me?
14:33	technomancy	proven undecidable doesn't mean there's no way to know whether two functions are ever the same
14:33	technomancy	I mean, for all pairs of functions
14:33	bbloom	technomancy: what good is an equality function that sometimes works?
14:34	llasram	true, false, FileNotFound
14:34	bbloom	yeah, seriously... equal, not-equal, and not-sure
14:34	starlord	bbloom: Now you see, it is controversial.
14:34	TimMc	true, false, and (System/exit 17)
14:34	bbloom	starlord: nope, still no controversy
14:34	technomancy	bbloom: I dunno, bloom filters are a thing? =)
14:34	sritchie	dnolen_: hey david, if you’re around, got a Q for you about component design
14:35	starlord	bbloom: Correct, there is disagreement.
14:35	bbloom	starlord: nope, there's a misunderstanding....
14:35	sritchie	dnolen_: working on the documentation site for this om-bootstrap project: https://github.com/racehub/om-bootstrap
14:35	starlord	Thanks in advance.
14:35	bbloom	technomancy: bloom filters implement a different contract
14:35	starlord	Regards.
14:35	bbloom	technomancy: the contract of equals (or clojure equiv) is that it provides a decision procedure
14:36	dnolen_	sritchie: actually gotta run, catching a plane
14:36	bbloom	technomancy: a heuristic procedure is, by definition, not Object.equals
14:36	dnolen_	sritchie: ping me later
14:36	technomancy	bbloom: I think could be room conceptually for another predicate, that's all
14:36	technomancy	certainly not c.c/=
14:36	starlord	There are cases where two functions may be equal due to the same definition even though they are compiled as anonymous functions twice.
14:36	sritchie	dnolen_: has to do with prop mutation, I’ll write a mailing list note
14:36	Bronsa	starlord: can you please stop with thist "Thanks in advance. Regards" thing? it's honestly pretty annoying
14:36	starlord	I am not aware of whether Clojure optimizes this use-case.
14:36	sritchie	for sure, thanks!
14:36	starlord	Bronsa: Noted.
14:36	Bronsa	starlord: thanks
14:36	starlord	Bronsa: Pleasure.
14:37	bbloom	technomancy: now that is a controversy :-)
14:37	bbloom	technomancy: whether or not having multiple defined equality predicates in your core language is a good idea, and if so which :-P
14:37	technomancy	bbloom: well, we have identical? and =
14:37	starlord	Imagine this line of code: (fn[] (fn[a b] (+ a b)))
14:37	starlord	It will return twice the same identical function, with no lexical captures. But are they equal? That is dependent on the compiler, even though we may infer that it clearly is.
14:38	starlord	It may not be, although that is up to the JVM compiler as well as the Clojure compiler.
14:38	technomancy	bbloom: and ==
14:38	starlord	Now this is clearly problematic: how can we rely on equality testing for functions if we don't know whether they will always return intuitive results?
14:38	hiredman	technomancy: I find this pretty funny given the arguments we've had were you insist egal solves everything and I say equality is difficult and the only reasonable thing is to have lots of predicates ala common lisp
14:38	starlord	Herein lies the initial problem.
14:38	bbloom	there are actually schema implementations that compare closures by comparing each closed over value
14:38	bbloom	cringe
14:39	technomancy	hiredman: huh? I've never said egal should be the only predicate.
14:39	technomancy	hiredman: just that egal is necessary but not sufficient
14:39	bbloom	one things certainly clear: egal is by far the best default
14:39	starlord	I hope this is now clear so that the confusion is resolved.
14:39	kirill	hi all, I'm new to clojure. someone recommended that I use this (https://github.com/abarbu/sanity). any thoughts on this from someone who knows more than I do (which should be anybody at this point)?
14:40	technomancy	hiredman: obviously you can't be self-hosting without having identical? so that seems like a bit of a straw man to begin with.
14:40	bbloom	i'd also argue that you can (in theory, but not as well in practice) encode any equality scheme in to egal by inventing new equality-class wrappers
14:41	amalloy	kirill: i would not touch this sanity thing
14:41	kirill	amalloy: how come?
14:42	amalloy	the readme indicates that it was written by a grumpy person with experience in some other lisp
14:42	technomancy	wow
14:42	technomancy	kirill: yeah, this guy has no idea what he's doing
14:42	kirill	can you elaborate why he has no idea?
14:43	kirill	I mean, I'm happy to throw around accusations as much as the next guy, but you know what I mean :)
14:43	amalloy	the "improvements" he made don't fit with the rest of clojure, and if you use them you'll be writing this weird language that nobody but you or he can deal with
14:43	amalloy	like, (seq ()) throwing an exception? that is the worst thing you could possibly do. it will break every function that exists
14:43	technomancy	kirill: he doesn't understand how syntax-quote's auto-qualification affects Clojure's macro system
14:44	amalloy	technomancy: well, i can sympathize with wanting something like #`. i've wanted it myself on occasion
14:44	amalloy	sometimes i just want to build a list, not write a macro
14:44	bbloom	amalloy: there's backtick! :-)
14:44	TimMc	,`(~@()) ;; wait, really?
14:44	clojurebot	nil
14:44	amalloy	,`()
14:44	clojurebot	()
14:44	bbloom	https://github.com/brandonbloom/backtick ; w00t
14:44	Bronsa	TimMc: I've already made a patch for that!
14:45	TimMc	This doesn't match the complaint-- oh, OK.
14:45	amalloy	Bronsa: just replacing the call to 'seq with a call to 'sequence?
14:45	technomancy	"The scoping of def and defn is broken yet for some reason they're still allowed outside the toplevel." doesn't really seem to understand what vars are either?
14:45	Bronsa	amalloy: correct
14:45	Bronsa	I can't find the ticket now because jira sucks
14:46	Bronsa	but trust me on that.
14:46	kirill	technomancy: eh... again I'm new here, but I don't find it productive to say "oh he doesn't understand what he's doing" without some more elaboration? I mean, I guess you seem like you know what you're doing, so can you elaborate what you mean?
14:46	bbloom	kirill: in short, he has invented a new language
14:46	bbloom	kirill: his individual complaints/changes may or may not be a good idea
14:46	Bronsa	here http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1444
14:46	bbloom	but the result is "Not Clojure (tm)"
14:47	technomancy	kirill: he appears to be complaining about def's scoping, which indicates he doesn't understand that the point of it is to create a var, not to act like CL's setq
14:47	tanzoniteblack	kirill: at least for learning Clojure, it'd be a bad idea to use a library that attempts to completely re-write subsections of the language. The most obvious reason being it will be very difficult to get help on here or stackoverflow (or just google) with any issues you run into, because they very well might be caused solely due to those changes
14:47	llasram	Hmm, and he redefines some things in clojure.core. Like `let`
14:47	mthvedt	kirill: also, the docs suggest he doesn’t understand clojure’s decisions
14:47	mthvedt	always be suspicious of people who disagree with things they don’t understand
14:47	kirill	mthvedt: perhaps understands vs. agrees? :)
14:48	bbloom	some of the comments are kinda funny
14:48	alandipert	looks fun to me
14:48	alandipert	all the best stuff seems to come from grumpy lisp people!
14:48	amalloy	i like bbloom's explanation
14:48	mthvedt	kirill: well, if a guy is creating a new way because he doesn’t trust a widely trusted existing way… the bayesian infrerence is his new way probably won’t make sense due to a lack of understanding
14:48	kirill	I dunno, I don't mean to antagonize anyone, but only about two people so far managed to provide some kind of productive explanations as to why they don't like it as opposed to "comments are kinda funny"
14:48	technomancy	my suspicion is he's a CL fan who was forced to write clojure and treats every divergence from CL as a mistake
14:48	mthvedt	like his comment about
14:48	lavokad	hi, how can fix "Fireplace: :Connect to a REPL or install classpoath.vim" message? I have classpath.vim install. Each time i want to use fireplace, i need to manually :Connect to running repl
14:48	mthvedt	This default behaviour (of quasiquote) leads to a lot of strange and broken code
14:49	kirill	mthvedt: I think he means that quasiquote has context-sensitive behaviour, which can produce surprises when you just need to construct a list?
14:49	llasram	kirill: He layers a different language on top of Clojure, by re-defining core constructs to support what he considers to be "more sane" interfaces/behaviors (usually CL/Scheme-derived).
14:49	bbloom	https://github.com/abarbu/sanity/blob/master/src/sanity/core.clj#L238-L244
14:49	bbloom	weeee
14:49	bbloom	what if i want tenth?
14:49	bbloom	WHERE DOES IT END!?!
14:49	mthvedt	kirill: right, but the design goal of quasiquote is a way to write hygenic macros
14:50	llasram	kirill: The result will probably yield all sort of unexpected interactions, and will be a this little isolated tower of not-really-Clojure
14:50	kirill	mthvedt: do people write macros more often than lists in clojure?
14:50	kirill
14:50	bbloom	kirill: the tradeoff is different
14:50	hiredman	bbloom: ony can only hope he will fork the compiler and gnerate as needed
14:50	bbloom	kirill: most of the time when you create a list, you have the data you want in locals, or can get it via fn calls
14:51	amalloy	oh man. i was reading the description of https://github.com/abarbu/sanity/blob/master/src/sanity/improvements.clj#L115, and i misread it in a way that made me really interested
14:51	mthvedt	kirill: personally, i almost never use lists, unless you count calls to `cons`
14:51	bbloom	kirill: but when creating a list for a template, you want to stop evaluation
14:51	bbloom	kirill: it's pretty rare you want to create a list that isn't code but also want to prevent evaluation
14:51	amalloy	i misread "bracketing" as "backtracking", because i'd also read the macro name as "conde"
14:51	technomancy	kirill: yes. since clojure has vectors, they're used more often than lists for literals.
14:51	mthvedt	the only time i can think of where i manipulate lists programatically is when i’m doing complicated macros
14:51	bbloom	kirill: yeah, and what technomancy said about vectors
14:51	technomancy	also symbols are used very rarely outside macros because of keywords
14:52	lemonodor	i am sympathetic to the cond (and let) bracketing complaint.
14:52	bbloom	i often want an `each` function, but he apparently hasn't seen doseq: https://github.com/abarbu/sanity/blob/12081bd2b61db5f58a8158827066a3e02a23eb20/src/sanity/core.clj#L249-L250
14:52	llasram	And evidence that he doesn't understand the language he's replacing: https://github.com/abarbu/sanity/blob/master/src/sanity/improvements.clj#L18
14:52	kirill	technomancy: what is the difference (practically) between using keywords and symbols?
14:52	jonasen	https://github.com/abarbu/sanity/blob/master/src/sanity/core.clj#L164 should obviously be renamed to tau
14:52	llasram	Which is a lot of work over (defn core-count @#'clojure.core/count) (if he really needed that)
14:52	technomancy	kirill: keywords evaluate to themself
14:53	kirill	llasram: sorry, but I can't take what you say seriously, because so far it seems like it's just direct accussations without backup :(
14:53	TimMc	kirill: I think it handles sequences better (nil != ()) but other than that it's not enough to justify a language replacement.
14:54	llasram	kirill: THat's why I explained. He says "it'd be nice if I could get a handle to these functions; oh well, now I'll copy-paste in a whole bunch of code instead". When really there's a simple way to get a handle to them
14:54	kirill	hmm so far this experience is somewhat strange. there are about 2-3 people here who are discussing things productively, and an array of people just posting insults and various troll-level messages that don't contribute anything. is this common for channels like this?
14:54	bbloom	kirill: the problem is the tone of the prose in the sanity project
14:54	bbloom	...even the name "sanity"
14:55	bbloom	it reads like an attack, so people counter-attack
14:55	kristof	kirill: Yes.
14:55	technomancy	yeah, it's pretty clearly a troll to begin with
14:55	kristof	What's the context here?
14:55	hiredman	technomancy: and he didn't even bother to call it lava
14:55	amalloy	kristof: not really. #clojure is pretty friendly most of the time
14:55	kirill	but if we remember for a moment that we are not obligated to impress anyone, can we please discuss "sanity" in an objective manner such that we can hopefully do something productive here?
14:55	technomancy	"I'm forced to use clojure at work, but no one can force me to like it" afaict
14:55	TimMc	kirill: People also get tired of seeing these kinds of things over and over again, so people jump to ridicule pretty quickly.
14:55	technomancy	hiredman: missed opportunity!
14:55	kristof	technomancy: But, briefly, what's his/her problem?
14:56	amalloy	lemonodor: interestingly, you can define a let+ that supports both styles of bracketing
14:56	bbloom	kristof: decreased brain plasticity?
14:56	technomancy	kristof: CL superiority complex would be my guess
14:56	TimMc	bbloom: Not helpful.
14:56	kristof	Oh, well I've got one of those, so now I'm interested.
14:56	amalloy	(let+ [foo 1 (bar 2)] (+ foo bar)) ; the open paren doesn't make any sense in clojure's let, so this must be a lispy bracketing
14:57	kirill	bbloom: see? this is exactly what I'm talking about. you're probably a nice person, so why did you write that? we're not here to shit on anyone. the editorial choices of the dude on github don't have to turn all of us into insult machines =)
14:57	bbloom	sheesh, it was a joke...
14:57	kristof	I still don't know what this person even said.
14:57	kirill	a joke usually contains some element of cleverness or surprise at the end, which causes people to laugh. I didn't see that in that statement, which was just an insult
14:57	rweir	yowzer
14:57	kirill	so again, please...
14:58	TimMc	kristof: They linked to https://github.com/abarbu/sanity and people weren't impressed.
14:58	kirill	on the technical side, and if we ignore the editorial choices there, are there any good ideas in that repository?
14:58	amalloy	and you can do similarly with cond+, sorta: (cond+ (even? x) :even [(odd? x) :odd]); here it's a [ that doesn't make sense in clojure's cond, so you can use that to disambiguate
14:59	llasram	kirill: the `sanity.reader` namespace provides something which could be helpful, but bbloom's "backtick" does it better
14:59	technomancy	TimMc: oh, in some sense it's impressive; the level of dedication to his tribe. it's just not something that should be inflicted upon a Clojure beginner. =)
14:59	lavokad	hi, how can fix "Fireplace: :Connect to a REPL or install classpoath.vim" message? I have classpath.vim install. Each time i want to use fireplace, i need to manually :Connect to running repl
14:59	bbloom	kirill: defining infinity in core would be useful for clj/cljs compat
14:59	llasram	kirill: The `sanity.core` namespace has some reasonable-looking helpers, but there are many well-establish (flatland/useful, primsatic/plumbing)
14:59	tanzoniteblack	kirill: there seem to be some good ideas, like https://github.com/abarbu/sanity/blob/12081bd2b61db5f58a8158827066a3e02a23eb20/src/sanity/core.clj#L255 , but the problem is that that's already implemented in clojure core with mapv
14:59	amalloy	lemonodor: now, i wouldn't advocate actually using either of those macros, but it's neat that you can get the two styles of cond/let to coexist peacefully
14:59	bbloom	similarly, for the static functions on the java Math class
15:00	TimMc	kirill: The empty-seq-is-never-nil thing is good, but many of the other good things could just be used with Clojure as-is and do not demand a new language.
15:00	bbloom	tanzoniteblack: and mapv does it better too, with transients
15:01	amalloy	TimMc: i don't understand what you mean about the empty seq
15:01	mthvedt	timmc: i don’t agree with his complaints about seq equality, including that one. in clojure you are not supposed to generally compare seqs without putting them into the same data structure
15:01	mthvedt	because in both clojure and java, different data structures have different equality impls
15:02	kirill	mthvedt: is it appropriate to have a generic+deep+polymorphic equality tester for cases where the particular speed of the operation is of no consequence to the app in question?
15:02	bbloom	i genuinely don't understand how anybody can think it's a good idea to (def car first) (def cdr rest) ....
15:02	kirill	bbloom: why?
15:02	bbloom	i get it, you like car and cdr.... but really, clojure lists are always proper, so caddadadddr is never useful
15:03	kirill	bbloom: are some list selection procs (car, cdr, etc.) more frequently used than others?
15:03	hiredman	what I don't understand is why he doesn't just use a scheme or common lisp for the jvm, it seems like he would be so much happier
15:03	Bronsa	also frffrrffrest is so much better.
15:03	amalloy	bbloom: i don't think proper vs improper lists is terribly relevant to whether caddaaadadadr is useful
15:03	kristof	bbloom: There's a lot of anti-interface mentality in here.
15:03	lemonodor	bbloom: the issue of taking things typically used via java interop and moving them into clojure itself for consistency with clojurescript and other implementations seems like a thread that could be pulled on for quite a distance. do you have any general thoughts on that strategy?
15:03	bbloom	amalloy: it's somewhat relevant, but even more relevant is the fact that we have maps and destructuring :-P
15:04	TimMc	amalloy: I don't like punning nil with empty seqs. I agree with that author that it leads to too many problems.
15:04	kristof	bbloom: (def string-ref "Alias for clojure.core/nth" nth). What is the point of this?
15:04	bbloom	lemonodor: i think that if there is a function that is obviously available and consistent cross-platform, it should be surfaced in a non-interop way. however, i don't think we should try to patch up platform differences
15:04	TimMc	amalloy: That said, we're basically stuck with that.
15:05	amalloy	bbloom: did you ever see the with-cxrs macro i wrote, to bring the glory of caddaddddaaaadr to clojure?
15:05	bbloom	kristof: porting CL code?
15:05	bbloom	amalloy: haha, yes, hilarious
15:05	kristof	bbloom: I don't know anyone who likes the fact that there are a million different "nth" implementations for every datatype in CL.
15:06	bbloom	kristof: no idea
15:06	mthvedt	kirill: i think if you’re comparing equality in a ‘generic’ way that ignores structure and behavior, that’s probably a code smell
15:06	bbloom	like i said, it's quite clear that this guy (knowningly or not) wants a different language
15:06	kristof	bbloom: Or the fact that there's a "copy-list" and a "copy-seq" which essentially do the same thing.
15:06	bbloom	and the beauty of lisp is that you can make any language you want
15:06	bbloom	... as long as it's another lisp
15:06	kirill	bbloom: I think anyone who introduces proposals for improving clojure wants a "different language". it's just that some of them make it and some don't..
15:06	bbloom	i take issue with his tone, however
15:07	kirill	there is no reason for you to feel personally offended by his tone. he probably doesn't know you and not writing it specifically to upset you :P
15:07	bbloom	kirill: there's a point when two cultures are separated for so long that their common language diverges in to two distinct languages, rather than two distinct dialects
15:08	amalloy	kirill: you seem offended by the things bbloom is saying, even though he's not saying them to offend you
15:08	bbloom	kirill: growing a language by adding definitions or idioms does not a new language make
15:08	amalloy	arguably this is because some of them are offensive, whether he intends it or not; the stuff in sanity is pretty offensive too
15:08	bbloom	kirill: replacing fundamental sentence structure? that's a new language...
15:08	kirill	amalloy: I'd like to avoid the one-uppery gymnastics just by pointing out that we're trying to discuss the technical aspects of that repository, nothing else..
15:09	bbloom	amalloy: other than the brain plasticity joke, have i said something offensive?
15:09	amalloy	bbloom: nothing that offends me
15:10	amalloy	although for example "i genuinely don't understand how anybody can think it's a good idea to (def car first) (def cdr rest)" is a lot like "anyone who thinks this is bad at thinking"
15:10	bbloom	amalloy: well ok then :-P
15:10	Raynes	I want to know what happened but don't feel like all the ridiculousness in backlog.
15:10	AeroNotix	Same.
15:10	kristof	Raynes: Some guy posted a library that fixes things he doesn't like in clojure, and people find it silly.
15:10	bbloom	amalloy: no, i really think that it's a bad idea to define car and cdr on clojure list.... car and cdr are operations on pairs, not lists
15:11	Raynes	Oh, I see.
15:11	kristof	bbloom: Why does that change anything?
15:11	kirill	but lists are made of pairs, so the distinction appears academic at best
15:11	Raynes	So it immediately turned into a discussion not about his actual code, but about how offensive the response was.
15:11	kristof	A list is a pair whose cdr is another list or nil. shrug
15:12	Raynes	So, as per usual in these sorts of things, drama vs usefulness.
15:12	kirill	the fact that car "could" operate on an improper list doesn't change the fact that it can be used "safely" with proper lists?
15:12	bbloom	i think it's a perfectly reasonable idea to (def first car) and (def rest cdr) if you take the implicit restriction that first and rest are only defined for proper lists
15:12	bbloom	... made of pairs
15:12	kristof	Rest won't work on an improper list, right?
15:12	kristof	Then I agree with that sentiment.
15:12	xeqi	but I was going to use them on a vector
15:12	kirill	it will, but it will return a value such that (null? x) => #t
15:12	bbloom	xeqi: then you need polymorphism
15:13	bbloom	:-)
15:13	kirill	I mean, that's in scheme, not clojure :)
15:13	amalloy	kristof: but lists actually aren't made of pairs in clojuer
15:13	kristof	amalloy: What? What the hell are they made of, then?
15:13	amalloy	or at any rate seqs aren't, and rest works on seqs, not on lists
15:14	kristof	No, I was talking about lists, not seqs.
15:14	AeroNotix	kristof: you can't do dotted pairs, either
15:14	bbloom	kristof: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/43cc1854508d655e58e377f84836ba128971f90c/src/jvm/clojure/lang/PersistentList.java#L18-L20
15:14	bbloom	they are counted and the "rest" must also be an IPersistentList
15:14	bbloom	you can't put a non-list in the "cdr" cell
15:14	hiredman	what I don't understand is the persistent attachement to this library
15:15	AeroNotix	a link again to the library?
15:15	kristof	AeroNotix: yes, I'm aware.
15:15	TimMc	AeroNotix: sigh If I must... https://github.com/abarbu/sanity
15:15	kristof	Someone should just put it in the topic and declare Clojure dead.
15:16	hiredman	like "hey, I am new to clojure, is this any good" <a channel full of people, many of whom write clojure for a living> "no" <continued arguing>
15:16	kirill	hiredman: not sure what your point is :)
15:16	bbloom	hiredman: i've moved on to discussion pairs :-P
15:16	Raynes	In general, if you are one single person and you write a library called 'sanity' to fix an 'insane' language, you're probably kinda into yourself.
15:17	viperscape	lol
15:17	kirill	I suppose I ought to get information from a place where the level of discussion is more aimed towards the productive..
15:17	Raynes	"Hey guys, I've decided Clojure is insane and wrote this to fix it. Y'all best use it now."
15:17	kirill	I don't understand what's so hard in not making things personal
15:17	kristof	I wish I could inline assembly into clojure, and use go-tags, but no
15:17	bbloom	kirill: i take that personally.
15:17	kristof	This language is insane.
15:17	kirill	wow... okay, thanks to everyone who tried to help.
15:17	kirill
15:18	Raynes	kirill: People have addressed every single thing.
15:18	hiredman	kirill: my point is, you approached the channel as clojure novice asking if this is any good, and you got your answer from clojure experts, but you just seem to want to argue about it, which makes me wonder if you wrote this or something
15:18	Raynes	I don't know what more you're asking for.
15:18	Raynes	Nobody is trying to be hateful, this guy was hateful first.
15:18	kristof	(def list->vector vec) (def vector->list seq)
15:18	kirill	hiredman: hah no, I didn't write sanity... this isn't my "shtick" where I write controversial (apparently) libraries and then pretend I didn't, hah
15:18	Raynes	From what I can tell reading backlog, people have picked this apart and proved that he lacks some fundamental understanding of the things he is trying to fix.
15:18	kristof	What exactly is the point of any of this library
15:19	Raynes	I'm not gonna give him a hug for that.
15:19	kirill	Raynes: they haven't "proved" it though
15:19	kristof	kirill: I've been posting examples this whole time
15:19	kristof	Like what I just wrote.
15:19	Raynes	kirill: You're the only person who turned this into a dramafest over whos being a big meanie.
15:19	kristof	(inc Raynes)
15:19	lazybot	⇒ 48
15:19	AeroNotix	Instead of separating people into groups of "clojure experts" and "not clojure experts". It may behoove some of you to try to understand where some of these people are coming frm.
15:19	hiredman	kirill: sure, but you seem to have some emotional attachment to this library which makes you want to argue with #clojure when it is found wanting
15:19	starlord	"provides some functions which are more compatible with their better thought out Scheme counterparts."
15:19	AeroNotix	Some of the problems addressed here definitely are not without merit
15:19	starlord	zing!
15:20	kirill	Raynes: I called attention to the fact that people jumped on the bandwagon of insulting a person who's not even here, and making blanket statements like "this guy doesn't know what he's talking about" etc.
15:20	kristof	AeroNotix: since when did you start idling this channel?
15:20	AeroNotix	kristof: dunno, ~year ago?
15:20	Raynes	Because he bloody doesn't, and people have provided you with examples why.
15:20	kristof	AeroNotix: ...then when did you start idling #lisp?
15:20	AeroNotix	kristof: about ~2 years ago
15:20	kirill	hiredman: again, let's cut the ad hominem and stick to the facts. I'm just a person who's trying to find out information, and instead it sounds like people are just trying to bully anyone who smells like they might be "against the family"
15:20	kristof	Weird
15:20	AeroNotix	kristof: why?
15:20	ToxicFrog	kirill: you asked what people asked of the library, and their analysis is "this library was written by someone who doesn't know what they're doing".
15:21	hiredman	ad hominem?
15:21	ToxicFrog	And they have explained why.
15:21	kristof	Woah! Everyone stop! Do-over. Fresh plate. Someone ask a question, someone answer.
15:21	ToxicFrog	*what people thought.
15:21	arrdem	hiredman: argumentation technique based on personal insults
15:21	Raynes	This is ridiculous.
15:21	ToxicFrog	Raynes: I concur.
15:21	lemonodor	kirill: there’s always an aspect of that, because people are not abstract logic machines. but if you filter out the nonsense, it does seem like people have posted some concrete criticisms.
15:21	AeroNotix	ANYWAY
15:21	AeroNotix	WHO ELSE THINKS RICH HICKEY IS A DREAM BOAT?
15:21	kristof	Don't you mean
15:21	arrdem	not I...
15:21	lemonodor	(and there’s always nonsense, so filtering it is a useful skill)
15:21	kristof	A hunk
15:21	kristof	nudge nudge
15:23	llasram	A chunk?
15:23	llasram	No, wait. There's totally a better one with hunked-seqs in there somewhere
15:24	starlord	Please help me understand what `(~@(map (fn [x] (+ x 1)) '(1 2 3))) is supposed to do.
15:24	xeqi	does this fall under sexist behavior?
15:24	Raynes	I'm always entertained when this sort of thing happens and it's like one guy says this one thing that effectively everyone disagrees with, and the few supporters of the guy stop talking about the actual problem and turn it into some sort of minority hate crime crap. "against the family". This dude isn't rebel forces, he's just a guy with some opinions that most folks don't agree with. That's all.
15:25	Bronsa	starlord: return '(2 3 4)
15:25	llasram	xeqi: I think it might be inappropriate sexual comments, but which in this context are not sexist
15:25	kirill	Raynes: the fact that everyone disagrees with one person certainly has no impact on the validity of that person's statements or questions? just trying to figure out how this works
15:25	oskarkv	I wrote (defprotocol Something (some-fn [this] [this arg])) How should I write the code in defrecord to define the two versions? Also, what does "java.lang.AbstractMethodError: Method something.auto_size(Ljava/lang/Object;)Ljava/lang/Object; is abstract" mean?
15:26	Raynes	The fact that everyone disagrees with this person should be making you think "Wow, maybe this library is really bad.", but instead you've jumped straight into "THE MAN IS KEEPING US DOWN!"
15:26	Bronsa	oskarkv: (defrecord x [] Proto (f [_]) (f [_ _]) ..)
15:26	mthvedt	oskarkv: you probably forgot to implement a method in your deftype/defrecord
15:26	Raynes	Anyways, we've appeared to have moved on. I'd be happy to keep having a meta discussion in private if you like.
15:26	TimMc	(inc Raynes)
15:26	Raynes	we appear*
15:26	lazybot	⇒ 49
15:27	kirill	Raynes: really? is this how it works? 7 people on the internet said a library is bad, so I'm supposed to just go "yeah I guess it's bad because these guys say they write clojure for a living..." ? are you serious?
15:27	Raynes	Are you serious?
15:27	Raynes	Why did you even ask about this library/
15:27	llasram	Let's take a vote -- who here (a) writes Clojure for a living, and (b) is in favor of using `sanity`, especially for a newbie?
15:27	TimMc	Please take this to #sanity-shitfest-and-misunderstanding-gala
15:27	Raynes	You clearly didn't want truthful responses.
15:28	TimMc	llasram: Can we not feed this?
15:28	llasram	In the interest of reducing channel clutter, I'll assume any non-yays are nays
15:28	hiredman	clojurebot: the answer?
15:28	clojurebot	the answer is 42
15:28	llasram	TimMc: Ok, that's fair
15:29	Raynes	kirill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDlofPAOZy0 relevant to both of us
15:29	starlord	Did someone in here write sanity?
15:29	oskarkv	Bronsa mthvedt thanks
15:29	arrdem	(inc Raynes)
15:29	lazybot	⇒ 50
15:29	starlord	Also why is `(~@(...)) around it?
15:30	AeroNotix	I think a lot of the butthurt in here might be caused by the wording of the README. Calling a lot of core.clj "broken" is not a way to entice Clojurians.
15:30	kirill	I think the issue might be that people take it personally when a tool they use is being insulted(?) by someone else
15:31	AeroNotix	Sure, ego and time invested into learning something are hard to separate. That's not unique to clojure
15:31	kirill	and then they just defer to the person who memorized the most docs to jump on the bandwagon of like "yeah this guy clearly has absolutely nothing to say... let's get back to the echo chamber now"
15:31	Raynes	http://www.thestate.ae/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/running-in-place-2.gif this is us right now.
15:31	starlord	kirill: who recommended you use sanity?
15:32	AeroNotix	kirill: if this has really affected you, I suggest a quick walk to clear your head or something. Programming shouldn't make you mad.
15:32	kirill	starlord: I was just cruising some clojure repositories on github and this one seemed curious because I have a Scheme background. I don't profess that Scheme is "superior" to any other language, but it looked interesting
15:32	llasram	kirill: But no one in this channel thinks this library is something you should use. It's not just the loudest people being heard
15:32	Raynes	kirill: Dude, can you please go to http://logs.lazybot.org/irc.freenode.net/%23clojure/2014-08-13.txt and re-read this whole conversation.
15:32	ToxicFrog	kirill: so, do you actually care about people's opinions on this library? If not, why did you ask in the first place? If so, why are you dismissing those opinions as "echo chamber" and similar?
15:32	Raynes	If you read what you've said and what everyone else said one more time and still feel the same way, I give up.
15:33	kirill	ToxicFrog: I care about their opinions, but not when they're not backed up by anything and/or consist entirely of blanket claims
15:33	Raynes	Dear God.
15:34	Raynes	technomancy: Let's talk about Rust. How do you feel about Rust?
15:34	Raynes	I enjoy algebraic data types with my morning coffee.
15:34	arrdem	Raynes: best thing since sliced bread if you absolutely have to write something C like...
15:35	ToxicFrog	kirill: except that people have repeatedly explained, in detail, why they hold those opinions, and you have casually dismissed and ignored those explanations out of hand.
15:35	Raynes	arrdem: And want to change your code every 45 minutes as releases are pushed.
15:35	Raynes	ToxicFrog: no. stop. bad
15:35	Raynes	No more talking to kirill. I'm banning it.
15:35	Raynes	(about this topic)
15:35	kirill	hah :)
15:35	arrdem	Raynes: I look forwards to the day that Rust 1.0.0s at which point I will drop literally everything and hack rust for several months. Until then I just like the idea of rust.
15:35	Raynes	(please do keep talking to him about other topics)
15:36	ToxicFrog	I really should try Rust one of these days, but for now I'm having fun with Clojure and honestly not sure what I'd use Rust for.
15:36	Raynes	arrdem: Yeah, I really just want some stability before I start using it. Most of what I write is http stuff and I need a stable http client as well. There isn't a very good one, but there is a very good one in active development.
15:36	ToxicFrog	If it's ABI-compatible with C, maybe it would be a good choice for writing lua libraries in.
15:37	arrdem	ToxicFrog: My last non-GSoC job was writing sub-OS level software. Rust woulda been really nice for that.
15:37	rweir	ToxicFrog, it is!
15:38	lemonodor	aspiring bloggers might see the sanity library as fuel for an educational post, critiquing the good and bad from a position of experience…
15:38	ToxicFrog	arrdem: yeah, my industry work prior to this job was all kernel/driver stuff, and my thesis work was embedded systems -- but the former was in an established C++ codebase and the latter used a custom compiler that only understood a bastardized dialect of C.
15:38	ToxicFrog	It would have been useful back when I was doing a lot of Lua extension work, but that hasn't been for a few years except for vstruct, which has no C code at all.
15:39	starlord	I am liking Lua.
15:39	ToxicFrog	It's one of my favourite languages, although I've been increasingly moving to clojure for things more than a page or two long.
15:40	starlord	ToxicFrog: Why?
15:41	ToxicFrog	I've still got three major lua projects, emufun (HTPC frontend using the love2d engine), ss1edit (editing tools for System Shock), and vstruct (a binary data wrangling library used by ss1edit)
15:41	arrdem	how's it stood up? I've only ever used LUA for scripting my WM, and for that it didn't prove as modular as I would like.
15:41	ToxicFrog	starlord: library management in clojure with lein is way more convenient than it is for lua, deployment is generally easier with lein uberjar (it's a nightmare on windows, but so is lua)
15:42	starlord	ToxicFrog: Oh I see, so mostly just the tooling is nicer? Do you have any preference over the language itself?
15:42	ToxicFrog	I would still wholeheartedly recommend lua for scripting/configuration uses, but I've moved away from it for standalone programs.
15:42	ToxicFrog	(because in the former case, you can safely assume that the host program has solved all library/deployment issues for you)
15:42	ToxicFrog	(usually)
15:44	AWizzArd	I don’t know what version of Cider I’m using in Emacs, but it’s a few months old. Quick test: type this into your repl: (defn foo [& {:keys [a] :or {a 1/2}}] a). Now just type “(foo” and hit <space>. This crashes my emacs, and I see this error message:
15:44	ToxicFrog	Also, Lua's embedding API is excellent.
15:44	AWizzArd	ERROR: Unhandled REPL handler exception processing message {:id 28, :op info, :session 27d6fa9b-98a1-41ed-b818-1102fe9942eb, :ns user, :symbol foo}
15:44	arrdem	yeah LUA has done really well in all the embedded contexts I've seen it, I just can't imagine architecting a large (1k+LoC) program in it.
15:44	AWizzArd	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Cannot write value of type class clojure.lang.Ratio
15:45	AWizzArd	Emacs wants to display the function signature and there are problems displaying ratios, for some reason.
15:45	ToxicFrog	As for the language itself -- it's minimal but in a good way. Readable, very easy to learn. Simple but powerful. I do miss macros, though; metalua is no replacement and it's awkward using pcall/error rather than (try+).
15:46	ToxicFrog	And yeah, there's not much for making large programs in it tractable the way you can get, say, bolt-on static type checking for clojure.
15:46	ToxicFrog	Its compiler is a lot better than clojure's, though :P
15:46	arrdem	they also have LuaJIT which is literally magic :D
15:47	ToxicFrog	Yeah, luajit is kind of awesome and I hope love2d moves to it at some point.
15:47	ToxicFrog	I actually have a medium-sized game idea kicking around that, if I ever write, I'll probably write in lua using love2d.
15:47	starlord	ToxicFrog: Wait, Lua's compiler is better than Clojure's?
15:48	ToxicFrog	starlord: mostly that was a jab at the clojure compiler's shit-awful error handling
15:48	starlord	ToxicFrog: I thought the advantage of Clojure's was that it just compiles to straightforward JVM bytecode, and thus has all the power of the JVM behind it.
15:48	ToxicFrog	I don't actually know enough about e.g. compiler internals to compare their code generation or the like
15:48	starlord	Oh.
15:48	starlord	ToxicFrog: So mostly you prefer Lua, but like Clojure macros for the sake of (try)?
15:48	ToxicFrog	As far as VM shootout goes, the Lua VM is actually very well designed and tiny, and the LuaJIT VM is larger but blazing fast.
15:49	Jaood	starlord: that's an advantage or disadvantage, depends on how you see it ;)
15:49	starlord	Jaood: what is?
15:50	ToxicFrog	starlord: no, I wouldn't say that. I like both for different reasons. Clojure, being a lisp, honestly doesn't have that much "language" in the sense of built-in syntax and stuff, it's mostly libraries (core and third-party) -- and clojure's libraries make it way more convenient to develop stand-alone stuff in than lua.
15:50	Jaood	starlord: compiling to JVM bytecode
15:50	ToxicFrog	It also, IME, tends to be more concise and easier to debug when it goes wrong, albeit harder to read at first glance.
15:52	ToxicFrog	starlord: Basically I would say, in a vacuum, I think clojure is a better language with better libraries. But lua is faster, smaller, easier to embed, has a lower barrier to entry, and is generally more newbie-friendly, which gives it an advantage in specific areas.
15:52	starlord	ToxicFrog: So far it sounds like most of what you like about Clojure is that it is batteries-included (i.e. like Python, Ruby), and that it has very easy and consistent dependency tooling.
15:53	arrdem	$google computercraft
15:53	lazybot	[ComputerCraft \| Programmable Computers for Minecraft] http://www.computercraft.info/
15:53	arrdem	^ lua embedded awesome
15:53	ToxicFrog	...which is kind of just a long-winded way of saying that I think clojure is a better general-purpose language and I think lua is much better at the specific purpose it was designed for
15:54	ToxicFrog	For a while I used lua as my primary programming language, now I'm moving to clojure for general purpose stuff and lua for embedding stuff.
15:54	starlord	ToxicFrog: Have you used Lua with a batteries-included library?
15:54	starlord	I've seen a few on github but can't remember their names.
15:54	ToxicFrog	starlord: a few, yeah. The problem is that there's still nothing nearly as good as lein uberjar for actually distributing the result.
15:54	starlord	Right.
15:54	starlord	Okay I think I understand fully now.
15:55	ToxicFrog	Like, luaforwindows is batteries included. But I also want to distribute my program on linux. Do I build linux versions of all these libraries and ship with? Tell them to use the package manager? What if I depend on something that's in luaforwindows but not, say, the Fedora repositories?
15:55	xeqi	hmmm, I wonder how much lein contributes to clojure being useable
15:55	arrdem	xeqi: massively
15:55	arrdem	xeqi: if I had to deal with bare jars I'd probably still be writing python
15:56	ToxicFrog	So, for personal work, those things are great. For distribution, you can manage it, but it takes a lot of effort, whereas with clojure I can just go 'lein uberjar' and get one file that works everywhere* and contains all the dependencies.
15:56	ToxicFrog	* offer not valid on windows machines on days ending in y
15:56	TimMc	AeroNotix: "Programming shouldn't make you mad." <-- I think that means you're not programming hard enough. :-P
15:56	xeqi	arrdem: theres maven
15:57	llasram	I will take this occasion to
15:57	llasram	(inc technomancy)
15:57	lazybot	⇒ 130
15:57	arrdem	xeqi: true but it's not completely retard proof like lein, thus requires effort
15:57	AeroNotix	TimMc: I forgot to add "... at people"
15:58	starlord	ToxicFrog: This is the same conclusion I've come to, mostly.
15:58	xeqi	$google why you heff to be mad
15:58	lazybot	[Why you heff to be mad? (Original) - YouTube] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzpndHtdl9A
15:58	starlord	ToxicFrog: I've used Ruby and Python for about 4 years, Clojure for 2, and Lua for 6 months. So far I'd agree that Lua is not great for distributing whole programs unless they're embedded in a host which takes care of all dependencies.
15:59	TimMc	AeroNotix: I dunno, ever worked with legacy code?
15:59	starlord	ToxicFrog: However, I would use Ruby for one-off programs since it feels considerably lighter-weight to me than Clojure (i.e. any JVM language).
15:59	TimMc	It also sometimes makes me mad at myself.
16:00	starlord	ToxicFrog: I admit that I don't like Ruby as a language, but relatively speaking, Clojure isn't better enough to make it worth waiting for the JVM.
16:00	ToxicFrog	starlord: for me -- python 2 years, clojure the same, lua 10 or so. Ruby not at all, I dabbled in it but didn't like the taste of either the language or community.
16:00	Jaood	we need a Clojure in C !
16:00	starlord	I like that I can write Ruby in most editors without needing special plugins.
16:00	ToxicFrog	For one-off programs I generally use lua or python, depending on what kind of library capabilities I need. Or bash for really small things.
16:01	starlord	ToxicFrog: fwiw, Ruby and Python are mostly equivalent
16:01	ToxicFrog	starlord: Ruby's syntax and feature set makes me think it was designed by someone who thought perl was a good idea but didn't go far enough~
16:02	ToxicFrog	Also, I looked at like three Ruby tutorials and all of them were incredibly condescending and pretentious
16:02	ToxicFrog	To date I have not ever had to work on someone else's Ruby code and thus have not regretted not pursuing it further
16:03	llasram	starlord: There are some pretty significant differences in the communities and available libraries, but yeah -- what the language semantics let you do easily are super-close
16:04	Jaood	there's also mruby now which can replace lua use cases
16:04	justin_smith	for a light weight, concise, high level language, with low startup time and runtim performance, ocaml is pretty hard to beat
16:05	justin_smith	that and was too ambiguous: low startup time, and great runtime performance
16:06	AeroNotix	justin_smith: terrible concurrency story though
16:06	AeroNotix	in the same league as python
16:06	justin_smith	no worse than python or ruby really
16:06	justin_smith	but yeah, true that
16:06	lemonodor	i’d kinda love to use clojure on raspberry pi/beaglebone, but it’s sooo slooow on those platforms.
16:07	AeroNotix	lemonodor: which aspects of clojure interest you?
16:07	technomancy	racket is great on arm
16:07	AeroNotix	because there are many dialects of Lisp
16:07	ToxicFrog	Oh right, that's the other thing. If I were doing cluster computing I'd use Lua, at least for all the glue.
16:07	justin_smith	lemonodor: I wonder if the lower in-memory size with clojure-clr would help
16:07	ToxicFrog	Mostly because I have Lua bindings for a message-passing library (Pilot) on top of MPI and I like that a lot more than C.
16:07	lemonodor	i wonder if dalvik could run on beaglebone/raspberry
16:11	ToxicFrog	Back to Clojure for a moment -- my main objections are the slow startup time (which prevents me from using it for small scripts), the unpleasantness of developing in it without lein (ditto -- I can't just start something with #!/usr/bin/clojure and toss it in in ~/bin), and the compiler (which is the main reason I'm hesitant to recommend it)
16:11	Raynes	I can't think of a non-Go language that is easy to develop without some sort of tooling like lein.
16:12	justin_smith	lemonodor: I see references here and there to a thing called "alien dalvik", I dunno if it is available for raspberry pi though, seems people are using it on ios?
16:12	ToxicFrog	Raynes: lua and python come to mind :P
16:12	ToxicFrog	No compilation needed, I can just whip out a script, give a #! line and away it goes.
16:13	ToxicFrog	For python I can even split it into multiple files, then zip them and make the zip +x and it just works.
16:13	ToxicFrog	Although at that point there is an Actual Build Step.
16:14	Raynes	ToxicFrog: uh
16:14	ephemeron	ToxicFrog: For scripting, you might want to check out https://github.com/tailrecursion/boot. (I have not tried it yet.)
16:14	technomancy	Raynes: racket is like that
16:14	Raynes	ToxicFrog: Go try to write me a couple Python projects without virtualenv, pip, and setuptools.
16:14	ToxicFrog	If I look in ~/bin/ basically everything there is bash, lua or python. One is a symlink to a python-zip. Five or so are binaries compiled from C.
16:14	Raynes	Distribute some libraries, programs, write a website.
16:14	Raynes	Do it all without any tooling.
16:14	ToxicFrog	Raynes: I've never used any of those soooooo
16:14	AeroNotix	ToxicFrog: never ?
16:14	ToxicFrog	Wait, no, I lie, I used pip once to install the dependencies for a FUSE module
16:14	Raynes	Can you show me some of your Python projects?
16:15	fading	I tried helloworld in ClojureCLR and was suprised how long it took to print
16:15	AeroNotix	Do you write Python professionally?
16:15	Raynes	I do.
16:15	AeroNotix	Raynes: who doesnt
16:15	fading	Whereas F# helloworld was instantaneous
16:15	Raynes	You literally cannot use Python without virtualenv. As soon as you need one single thing installed with pip, you're totally screwed.
16:15	ToxicFrog	AeroNotix: yes, but at my job we have our own custom tooling for everything; I'm just talking about one-off scripts here.
16:15	Raynes	Sure, you can write random scripts and execute them without dependencies and dependency management.
16:16	ToxicFrog	Raynes: bear in mind that the context is writing 1-2 page scripts for personal use, not production-quality release software
16:16	Raynes	Yeah, I still wouldn't do that without a virtual environment.
16:16	ToxicFrog	I can do that in python without tooling or any sort of build phase, I can't do the same in clojure.
16:16	Raynes	I'd rather not completely destroy my system package index.
16:16	Raynes	Sure you can
16:16	AeroNotix	Raynes: what does "completely destroy"?
16:16	ToxicFrog	As for released software in python, I believe I only have one, https://github.com/toxicfrog/misc/tree/mo
16:16	Raynes	It's gonna startup slow, but you can do it with just clojure.jar.
16:17	AeroNotix	if all your serious projects use a venv, one-off scripts should be fine to fubar everything
16:17	llasram	AeroNotix: Python packages are not guaranteed to be uninstallable
16:17	AeroNotix	llasram: and?
16:17	ToxicFrog	Raynes: so, how much setup do I need to get to the point where I can write a script in clojure, chmod it a+x, and run it from the shell?
16:17	Raynes	AeroNotix: Develop two projects. Have dependency with transitive dependency on two different versions of the same library.
16:17	ToxicFrog	Because that's the bar to clear here.
16:17	Raynes	AeroNotix: boom without virtualenv.
16:17	AeroNotix	Raynes: one-off scripts vs projects
16:17	AeroNotix	a script I'm writing to parse some turds out of a file does not need a venv
16:17	Raynes	If your one-off scripts never require dependencies, then you're good to go.
16:18	seangrove	Virtualenv burrito is pretty nice for python, from what I hear
16:18	Jaood	ToxicFrog: with java -cp clojure.jar clojure.main script.clj
16:18	Raynes	But I think it's silly to make that assumption and even more silly to champion one language over another for making this arguably not that useful use-case easy.
16:18	ToxicFrog	The only one that requires deps outside the python stdlib is the one I just linked, which requires mutagen
16:19	Raynes	But yeah, you can do exactly the same thing with a shebang like Jaood demonstrated. It'll just be slow, of course, so Python is clearly a better choice.
16:19	Raynes	But I don't think tooling is the reason.
16:20	Jaood	Raynes: do you prefer Python over Ruby?
16:20	ToxicFrog	Jaood: and where do I find clojure.jar? Because locate sure doesn't know of it.
16:20	Raynes	Jaood: Yes.
16:20	Raynes	I have Rails 2 PTSD.
16:20	Jaood	;)
16:21	Raynes	ToxicFrog: clojure.org probably still offers clojure jar downloads. Otherwise, find it in your ~/.m2 folder where maven has stored it already.
16:21	xeqi	ToxicFrog: if you've already used lein, then ~/.m2/repository/org/clojure/clojure/1.6.0/clojure-1.6.0.jar for the right version
16:21	Jaood	ToxicFrog: well it should have a version in it clojure-1.6.0.jar
16:21	ToxicFrog	Raynes: well, I had three objections, of which tooling was only one of them; and I still maintain that '#!/usr/bin/python' is easier to remember than '#!/usr/bin/java -cp /path/to/wherever/the/hell/clojure.jar clojure.main'.
16:22	ToxicFrog	Aah, I was just looking for 'clojure.jar', without version number.
16:22	technomancy	#!/usr/bin/env lein run -m clojure.main
16:22	technomancy	^ is a thing that might work?
16:22	Raynes	Yes, clearly, but my point was more that "Oh look, I can just write this one off script. writes 70% of one-off script; oh shit, I need that library..."
16:22	ToxicFrog	technomancy: you can use lein run outside a lein project directory? I'll try that.
16:22	Raynes	I prefer to just start with an actual project from the beginning.
16:22	AeroNotix	Raynes: I just install that library globally. #yolo
16:23	mocker	heh
16:23	justin_smith	fading: I was mainly thinking the lower memory usage, but looking at a 1:1 comparison it's not a huge margin
16:23	technomancy	ToxicFrog: yeah, it starts in like half the time too
16:23	ToxicFrog	Raynes: yes, and then I go "zypper in that-library" and keep on trucking, at least in python/lua
16:23	Jaood	lein run will startup slower than just java -cp clojure.jar ...
16:23	Raynes	ToxicFrog: https://github.com/Raynes/basement makes it really easy to go from zero to executable properly structured Python program here.
16:23	Jaood	ToxicFrog: ^^
16:23	Jaood	technomancy: err ^^
16:23	ToxicFrog	Well, 20% of the time I do that, the other 80% of the time it was already pulled in as a dependency by something else
16:23	technomancy	Jaood: only inside a project dir
16:23	justin_smith	fading: that is, comparing java -jar <path to>clojure-1.4.jar and mono clojure-1.4.exe
16:23	starlord	ToxicFrog: Sorry to delay, just had a meeting.
16:24	ToxicFrog	Raynes: you are completely missing my point, which is that my goal is to be able to dash off quick scripts with zero setup or deployment overhead.
16:24	lemonodor	yes, python needs a lein!
16:24	ToxicFrog	Python satisfies that handily.
16:24	Raynes	You're missing my point, which is that I think that's bad.
16:24	AeroNotix	Raynes: why do I need my shitty turd parser to have a setup.py?
16:24	starlord	ToxicFrog: I have seen good and bad code in both Ruby and Python, and good and bad documents and community activity in both also. I don't hold it against either of them.
16:24	Raynes	If you knew how much of that shit I've had to clean up over my very brief Python career, perhaps you'd be more sympathetic I suppose.
16:24	AeroNotix	Raynes: dude we all work with shit
16:24	AeroNotix	Raynes: don't play that card
16:24	ToxicFrog	Raynes: yes, and at work, or for things that I'm actually releasing, I take more care
16:24	AeroNotix	that's not even an argument
16:25	Raynes	AeroNotix: ...?
16:25	Jaood	ToxicFrog: oh ok
16:25	technomancy	I just write elisp for quick one-off scripts
16:25	starlord	ToxicFrog, llasram: I personally have found that both communities tend to rely a little too much on inheritance, but the only time I found this to be excessively painful was when using Python's 'twisted' library.
16:25	AeroNotix	technomancy: but you obviously hate yourself
16:25	technomancy	... why is everyone looking at me funny
16:25	Jaood	err technomancy I mean
16:25	Raynes	AeroNotix: I'm asking him to not create the shit we all work with. Not claiming I'm the only person who has ever worked with 'shit'.
16:25	ToxicFrog	Raynes: but not when I want to use /usr/share/dict/words to cheat at scrabble, or quickly scrape a website for some data, or download the complete Pterodactyl Squad discography
16:25	AeroNotix	Raynes: why would you be using his one-off scripts?
16:25	technomancy	AeroNotix: I've actually been switching to racket for that stuff
16:25	starlord	justin_smith: I have not gotten into OCaml nor seen a good reason to use it over Ruby for the tasks I wan to accomplish.
16:25	Raynes	Okay kids.
16:26	Raynes	I'm gonna go back to work now.
16:26	AeroNotix	Raynes: Just seems a funny thing to care about how untidy someone else leaves their site-packages when it doesn't affect you
16:26	Raynes	lol
16:26	AeroNotix	He said many times that in real projects he takes more care
16:26	Raynes	Okay.
16:27	technomancy	throw-away code is great if it actually gets thrown away
16:27	AeroNotix	I'm definitely not rolling out a requirements.txt or setup.py to run some quick numbers or make a few scripted HTTP call
16:27	AeroNotix	s
16:27	Raynes	I sure am
16:27	starlord	I like Lua from a language standpoint - very lightweight, small, minimalist. But in practice, it's hard to write stand-alone programs in it.
16:27	AeroNotix	Raynes: learn to not waste time
16:27	Raynes	Because it's literally just 'ment athing'
16:27	technomancy	and that's why we need to develop a mechanism for programs that literally self-destruct after a given time
16:27	ToxicFrog	technomancy: mine actually lives in ~/bin/ forever and ever because sometimes I do actually need it again years later, to be honest.
16:27	starlord	I wrote this documentation scraper pretty quickly in Ruby: https://github.com/mjolnir-io/core.window/blob/master/gendocs.rb
16:27	fading	and virtualenv is pretty recent right? I mean I remember seeing how proud various IDEs where that they supported it now
16:27	Raynes	AeroNotix: You're getting a tad out of line.
16:28	starlord	I considered rewriting it in Lua, but it was too impractical. Ruby's standard libraries wouldn't have been available, so I would have had to write `map` myself, for example.
16:28	Raynes	Lets take this to PM.
16:28	AeroNotix	It's IRC, not a playgroup.
16:28	aperiodic	lemonodor: the most performant way to get clojure onto a raspberry pi or similar is to use clojurescript & node.js. the JVM can be run on it but it's a bit heavyweight for the platform
16:29	lemonodor	aperiodic: yeah, i was just thinking that.
16:29	ToxicFrog	starlord: yeah, the lua stdlib is extremely minimal. There's a few libraries that try to flesh it out. IME, most lua programmers gradually build up a personal utility library of such things.
16:29	AeroNotix	aperiodic: as much as I hate node.js, that's not a bad idea!
16:29	technomancy	aperiodic: https://github.com/greghendershott/rackjure!
16:29	technomancy	at least it has runtime-eval =)
16:29	starlord	ToxicFrog: Now in my Objective-C application that embeds Lua, it's a lot easier: I can shell out to Foundation.framework for most things, i.e. HTTP, JSON, etc.
16:30	ToxicFrog	starlord: and yeah, I spent years using it for stand-alone stuff, but these days I've come to terms with the fact that it's not a good choice for that and is more comfortable in conjunction with a host language.
16:30	technomancy	it's "not clojure" but hey, neither is cljs
16:30	starlord	ToxicFrog: So I imagine in the future I'll be writing many more one-off programs as Lua extensions to this program that I'm writing. But that's a slightly different use-case than a documentation-scraper like I linked here.
16:30	aperiodic	you're probably better off with something like that and not having to weave your code in with node.js's crazy conventions
16:30	starlord	By the way, I wrote one of my first legit Makefiles: https://github.com/mjolnir-io/core.window/blob/master/Makefile
16:30	AeroNotix	SBCL should run fine on a raspberry pi
16:31	starlord	Very proud :)
16:32	starlord	ToxicFrog: That Makefile would have been less pleasant to write if I had used Clojure instead of Ruby for this task, fwiw.
16:32	AeroNotix	less pleasant to use as well
16:32	starlord	Yep.
16:32	ToxicFrog	So, out of curiosity I checked my ~/bin. bash: 33; binary: 7; python: 3; lua: 2.
16:32	arrdem	eh just build a "Clojure on SBCL" library and leave it for the rest of us :P
16:32	ToxicFrog	So apparently I do most of my one-offs in bash.
16:33	ToxicFrog	Although some of those bash scripts contain embedded blocks of lua code that it pipes stuff through~
16:33	starlord	ToxicFrog: mine only has `lein` in it.
16:33	lemonodor	yeah, actually clozure might be better for constrained platforms
16:33	starlord	I guess I don't have any one-off scripts.
16:33	technomancy	starlord: remind me to tell you about my referral marketing program
16:33	starlord	technomancy: Remember to tell me about your referral marketing program.
16:33	technomancy	"Leiningen: it's all you need. Thanks in advance. Regards." --starlord
16:34	ToxicFrog	starlord: yeah, I tend to write things at the drop of a hat, I'd rather spend an hour writing a program to automate a tedious task for me than spend half an hour on that task
16:34	starlord	technomancy: nailed it
16:34	Bronsa	(inc technomancy)
16:34	lazybot	⇒ 131
16:34	ToxicFrog	Some of these I can probably actually remove, they're interfaces to sites or services that no longer exist or helpers for completed projects.
16:34	iris_	Is it possible to use extend-protocol with a generic abstract Java class? For instance AbstractNode<T>?
16:34	starlord	ToxicFrog: I guess I don't have many tedious tasks; the few I do, I've been putting into my Objective-C program's custom configuration file for hotkeys.
16:35	ToxicFrog	But in general I write a lot of these, they live in ~/bin for a while, and then either graduate to ~/devel for cleanup and eventual release (that's what mo did -- it started as two python scripts, mtag and msort) or get removed some years later.
16:35	starlord	ToxicFrog: For example, I bound Mash-D to launch Dictionary.app for me or bring it to the front if it's not open.
16:35	starlord	*if it is
16:36	ToxicFrog	Bigger things -- where I expect up front that it'll need more than one file, or will be released someday more formally than "yo here's a bash script you might find interesting <pastebin>" on IRC, or that it needs actual testing -- start in ~/devel to begin with.
16:36	amalloy	my goodness #clojure has been vociferous today
16:37	ToxicFrog	starlord: right, for me, I'd probably write a small script to query a dictionary and display the results on stdout.
16:37	starlord	ToxicFrog: well Dictionary.app has find-as-you-type which I find helpful
16:37	Jaood	amalloy: chim in with your favorite scripting language!
16:37	starlord	ToxicFrog: I'd love it if there was an OS X command-line program that tapped into Dictionary.app's sources to do the same thing using ncurses or something.
16:38	arrdem	awk all day erry day
16:38	starlord	amalloy: I don't know what that word means. Thanks in advance, regards?
16:38	aperiodic	starlord: don't you have dictionary.app bound to mash-d?
16:38	TimMc	arrdem: Was it Tetris?
16:38	ToxicFrog	I use awk and sed a lot but generally only in small snippets in support of bash.
16:38	starlord	aperiodic: Yes.
16:39	aperiodic	starlord: well then, why don't you know what vociferous means?
16:39	arrdem	TimMc: neg it's a genealogy graph generator
16:39	TimMc	mash?
16:39	starlord	aperiodic: I have not used it just now.
16:39	starlord	amalloy: I don't know what vehement or clamorous mean, thanks in advance regards.
16:39	ToxicFrog	seangrove: I still do :D
16:39	ToxicFrog	Not for anything I want to be robust, though.
16:40	amalloy	wait wait wait, has starlord been sdegutis all along, or was there a nick changeover?
16:40	seangrove	ToxicFrog: Fair enough, heh
16:40	sdegutis	What?
16:40	clojurebot	What is sampling a random integers betwen 2, 12 s..t. P(X = i) = (7-\|i-7\|)/36
16:40	sdegutis	No I'm here.
16:40	ToxicFrog	Then again, "robust" and "web scraping" don't generally go well together no matter what tech you're using.
16:40	sdegutis	amalloy: Why did you ping me?
16:40	amalloy	eyeroll
16:41	ToxicFrog	And now, home!
16:41	TimMc	amalloy: Just today, yeah.
16:41	TimMc	And suddenly using "regard" a lot.
16:41	star-lord	Yeah.
16:41	AeroNotix	I'm sure it didn't have the hyphen before
16:41	star_lord	I own all three.
16:41	star_lord	Just in case.
16:41	llasram	So many color changes
16:42	AeroNotix	yeah, it's confusing me
16:42	star_lord	Thanks in advance.
16:42	amalloy	i have to say i rather enjoyed the starlord personality he crafted. a solid troll
16:42	AeroNotix	I associate people's personalities with colours
16:42	starlord	amalloy: <3
16:42	AeroNotix	sigh
16:42	AeroNotix	+b
16:43	sdegutis	Anyone got some advice on tuning a JVM for massive Datomic queries?
16:43	amalloy	AeroNotix: +b for nick changes? i wouldn't want to let you be king
16:44	AeroNotix	amalloy: I run a tight ship
16:44	lemonodor	my boss doesn’t know it yet, but the “Decrease [redacted] latency by 80%” item i put in my quarterly goals is going to be accomplished by writing and open sourcing clojure library.
16:44	AeroNotix	cool story
16:45	llasram	geez
16:45	TEttinger	lemonodor, decrease [java usage] by 80%
16:45	sdegutis	Ideally I don't think Datomic is the right overall choice, but the background thread that calculates statistics is really hurting performance.
16:46	sdegutis	We can't necessarily switch to Postgres just yet, so I have to performance-tune this beast in the meantime.
16:46	sdegutis	Fortunately I can reliably reproduce the 60+ second hang on staging. So now I just need to fine-tune it.
16:46	sdegutis	And no, I'm not going to rewrite the site in Lua. It's not batteries-included enough.
16:46	sdegutis	(Ruby, maybe.)
16:48	dsrx	how can I get clojars to know about the github repo for my project + list it on the project page?
16:48	technomancy	dsrx: put a :url in project.clj
16:48	dsrx	already done so
16:49	dsrx	https://github.com/tomjakubowski/weasel/blob/master/project.clj
16:49	dsrx	to be clear, I mean the section on this page with the github icon, just below the project description in the main area of the page: https://clojars.org/weasel
16:50	sdegutis	I bet it's happening because Datomic is producing tons of intermediate small immutable garbage objects that the GC can't keep up with.
16:50	technomancy	dsrx: hm... I think it reads the .git directory during pom generation?
16:50	technomancy	not sure
16:50	amalloy	sdegutis: probably not. tons of small immutable garbage objects is what the GC is pretty good at doing
16:51	TimMc	Heap too big?
16:51	amalloy	probably
16:51	dsrx	oh, does leiningen insert SCM information into the generated pom.xml?
16:51	technomancy	dsrx: yeah, but you can override it; see lein help sample
16:51	TimMc	I don't know why this is a problem we have.
16:52	TimMc	Does the JVM come with a collector that can do smaller pauses, or is it always stop-the-world?
16:52	arohner	sdegutis: are you holding onto the resultset somehow?
16:52	amalloy	TimMc: there are better collectors bundled with the popular jvms
16:52	arohner	TimMc: depends. there are multiple, configurable, GC engines
16:52	puredanger	sdegutis: you should probably ask your datomic question on the datomic mailing list https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/datomic
16:52	sdegutis	Possible. Or maybe Datomic is internally. They're pretty big Datomic queries that touch almost the whole database.
16:52	arohner	sdegutis: gathering data is a good place to start. VisualVM is good for this kind of thing
16:52	sdegutis	puredanger: It's not quite a fully formed question yet. I'm mostly just trying to figure out what /could/ be the cause.
16:53	sdegutis	arohner: Yeah I checked that but my results seemed meaningless (mostly longs and char[]s)
16:53	TimMc	amalloy: Any that allow you to use giant heaps without big pauses?
16:53	arohner	TimMc: that's kind of the holy grail of GC
16:53	rweir	TimMc, azul is 'pauseless'
16:54	BorisKourt	What is an efficient way for me to get a val for :name in the same map as an :id of n. Here is a sample of data: https://gist.github.com/BorisKourt/f52826c40ee766d72954 I have been searching and can't come up with a clean solution myself.
16:54	rweir	in exchange for $$$$ and hassle
16:54	puredanger	sdegutis: if you suspect gc, then turn on gc logging -verbose:gc and other such options
16:54	sdegutis	puredanger: Ahh, thanks. Will check it out.
16:54	islon	so guys, i have this function that needs to generate a cartesian product of tuples like [[1 2] [3 4]...] The best I could came up with was that: https://gist.github.com/stackoverflow/89104188d940616dbb62 which is even worse than the Java equivalent
16:55	amalloy	TimMc: -XX:+UseConcMarkSweepGC can't guarantee no pauses, but if you give it good tuning options it does enough work proactively that on the rare occasions you do get STW pauses they're reasonable
16:55	islon	there's probably a much easier way to do that
16:55	amalloy	&(partition 2 (range 10))
16:55	lazybot	⇒ ((0 1) (2 3) (4 5) (6 7) (8 9))
16:55	sdegutis	islon: not knowing much about the pattern you mentioned, it looks like you can just use partition with range to get this.
16:55	puredanger	TimMc: agreed with rweir - Azul (and Zing) are really the best at huge heaps, but G1 is a good option in newer vms
16:55	sdegutis	amalloy beat me to it.
16:55	sdegutis	(inc amalloy)
16:55	lazybot	⇒ 158
16:55	sdegutis	Whoa.
16:55	sdegutis	amalloy: you've been busy
16:56	islon	i have 2 ranges not only one
16:56	amalloy	puredanger: i actually had some trouble with big pauses in G1 and found ConcMarkSweep solved them
16:56	dsrx	technomancy: bingo, adding the scm to the project.clj did the trick, thanks
16:56	amalloy	obviously that's not conclusive: i surely missed some useful settings
16:56	islon	it's like a cartesian product of (range x) and (range y)
16:56	amalloy	&(for [x (range 5) y (range 6 10)] (list x y))
16:56	lazybot	⇒ ((0 6) (0 7) (0 8) (0 9) (1 6) (1 7) (1 8) (1 9) (2 6) (2 7) (2 8) (2 9) (3 6) (3 7) (3 8) (3 9) (4 6) (4 7) (4 8) (4 9))
16:56	TimMc	The context here is on-heap caching; we'll probably just end up using off-heap caching anyhow.
16:57	TimMc	but it sounds like there are some options!
16:57	puredanger	amalloy: CMS is great when it can keep up but has generally failed disastrously for me when it can't
16:57	islon	amalloy: perfect! I knew there was a better way =D
17:13	sdegutis	Why is everyone quitting IRC suddenly?
17:13	sdegutis	Perhaps it is a strike?
17:13	sdegutis	I had not heard of one though.
17:14	aperiodic	sdegutis: mission accomplished?
17:14	sdegutis	Seems like it was a short lived strike.
17:14	sdegutis	aperiodic: I do not understand you.
17:15	aperiodic	don't be coy
17:16	sdegutis	aperiodic: I don't know what coy means.
17:16	sdegutis	aperiodic: Now I know what coy means, but I don't see how I'm being coy.
17:17	aperiodic	whatever you say, starlord
17:18	sdegutis	aperiodic: I don't know what you're implying by referring to me as my other nick.
17:19	sdegutis	aperiodic: Are you implying that I secretly do not like Clojure and thus plotted the downfall of #clojure via some kind of secret spy-bot attack? Because if so, the fragments of what story you think you may have are not very believable and will not be accepted widely.
17:19	sdegutis	aperiodic: Besides, rest assured that nobody you discuss it with will take it very seriously, for various suspicious reasons.
17:21	aperiodic	I'm implying that your masterful troll of this channel as starlord made everyone delayed rage-quit IRC
17:21	aperiodic	but more likely it's just a netsplit
17:21	aperiodic	perhaps the BGP tables are filling up again
17:21	sdegutis	Oh.
17:22	sdegutis	aperiodic: Yes, let's go with that.
17:22	sdegutis	aperiodic: That's a very benign cause and doesn't put much blame on me.
17:22	technomancy	the #emacs channel has a bot feature that will emit technobabble when you ask it for an ,excuse
17:22	sdegutis	I see someone else has a similar mindset to me but is more prepared.
17:22	rweir	Let's use #emacs as a role model
17:23	technomancy	hehe
17:23	arrdem	lets not get hasty now... we're way more on topic than #emacs ever is..
17:23	TimMc	technomancy: Hell, I do that and I'm not even a bot.
17:24	technomancy	I don't know if that was intentional, but one of the other #emacs traditions is to make outlandish suggestions starting with "Let's ..."
17:24	Jaood	#emacs is 99% off-topic
17:24	rweir	(it was, i've been in there on and off for like 13 years)
17:24	arrdem	technomancy: is this where the "lets rebuild emacs atop guile" thing came from? it's just a huge misinterpreted joke?
17:25	technomancy	arrdem: we can only speculate =)
17:25	iris_	Is it possible to use extend-protocol with a generic abstract Java class? For instance AbstractNode<T>?
17:25	technomancy	iris_: the JVM doesn't have generics
17:25	hyPiRion	arrdem: let's rebuild emacs atop clojure
17:26	sdegutis	In the theme of #lua vs #lua-support (see lua-l) someone ought to fork #clojure with #clojure-support due to "constant off-topic noise" in here.
17:26	arrdem	hyPiRion: I thought someone tried that already..
17:26	iris_	parameterized types?
17:26	technomancy	iris_: they're part of the java language only.
17:26	rweir	hyPiRion, don't joke about things you don't want to risk happening
17:26	hyPiRion	arrdem: I thought that was vi
17:26	iris_	makes sense
17:26	sdegutis	On a related note, lower-case L in anything is almost always a bad decision, especially by itself.
17:26	arrdem	hyPiRion: I'd totally help with this but I'm busy forking clojure
17:26	sdegutis	arrdem: how is your Clojure compiler going?
17:27	hyPiRion	rweir: Well, I don't think it would case significant harm
17:27	iris_	Unlike the CLR... ah I remember now... thanks
17:28	rweir	hyPiRion, famous last words
17:28	TimMc	technomancy: I think you can ask for type params via reflection (on a class, not an instance, natch)
17:28	hyPiRion	sdegutis: I wasted 30 minutes because of that today actually
17:30	sdegutis	hyPiRion: l ?
17:31	hyPiRion	sdegutis: not alone, but somehow managed to replace a capital I with l.
17:31	sdegutis	Yeah, it's very confusing to see it in the Programming in Lua book and in their documentation, and on their mailing list. None of these managed to have a decent font that renders it differently enough from 1. I've wasted many minutes in the past few weeks confused over simple things due to it.
17:32	sdegutis	Fortunately in clj it's not too hard to spot due to the pattern.
17:32	AeroNotix	cIj
17:32	sdegutis	sdegutis -> starlord
17:32	starlord	done.
17:33	starlord	1 I l
17:33	metellus	\|1Il
17:33	starlord	the 1 and l are harder for me to differentiate than I and l.
17:34	dav	Can anyone give me good pointers on how to use authenticate on Google in order to use GAPI on Picasa in Clojure? (i.e. generate an URL that can be open in a browser to get a token, etc.)
17:35	starlord	ToxicFrog: Also have you tried Penlight? It doesn't solve the platform problem but it solves the stdlib problem.
17:54	dav	nobody?
17:54	clojurebot	nobody wants to refer clojure.edn/read fully-qualified over and over
18:13	SagiCZ1	.
18:22	SagiCZ1	whats the equvivalent function definition using the hash mark notation to this?
18:22	SagiCZ1	(fn [x] [x i])
18:22	SagiCZ1	#([% i]) does not work
18:23	Slackwise	The anonymous function literal only uses implicit parameters. They're positionally numbered.
18:23	Slackwise	Oh wait, I read that wrong.
18:23	tanzoniteblack	SagiCZ1: #(vector % i)
18:24	technomancy	,`#([% i])
18:24	clojurebot	(fn* [p1__25__26__auto__] ([p1__25__26__auto__ sandbox/i]))
18:24	technomancy	^ for a hint as to why it doesn't work
18:24	SagiCZ1	technomancy: thank you, that explains it
18:24	SagiCZ1	tanzoniteblack: thanks, that works
18:29	SegFaultAX	Is there an easy way to split a string from the right?
18:32	SagiCZ1	SegFaultAX: reverse it first?
18:39	ToxicFrog	technomancy: so, regarding the #! discussion earlier --
18:39	ToxicFrog	'lein run -m clojure.main foo.clj' works just fine.
18:41	ToxicFrog	'#!/usr/bin/lein run -m clojure.main' does not; it tries to pass 'run -m clojure.main' as a single argument.
18:41	technomancy	ah sure; that's too bad. needs an alias.
18:41	ToxicFrog	Yeah, easy enough to set up.
18:42	technomancy	maybe we can add one built-in
18:42	ToxicFrog	Also, wow, that does start up way faster.
18:43	ToxicFrog	Still needs 100MB of memory though~
18:47	SegFaultAX	SagiCZ1: :(
19:05	justin_smith	ToxicFrog: what about #!/usr/bin/env ...
19:07	justin_smith	never mind, I just tried that, to no avail
19:10	danielcompton	Does anyone use evil with Cider in emacs?
19:13	verma	ToxicFrog, tried with env?
19:13	verma	oh
19:13	verma	sorry justin_smith already suggested that
19:14	verma	danielcompton, try #clojure-emacs too
19:15	ToxicFrog	Yeah, it looks like #! passes everything after the command proper as a single arg
19:15	technomancy	that's ... pretty dumb
19:15	technomancy	actually wait
19:15	technomancy	that's really dumb
19:17	danielglauser	technomancy: How do you really feel?
19:23	bbloom	heh, the lesson of unix is "parsing is hard"
19:27	Guest19631	exit
19:27	Guest19631	exit
19:27	Guest19631	exit
19:33	bbloom	maybe i'm crazy, but has anybody ever seen such a thing as an "immutable weak map" ? or i guess a "persistent weak map" ...?
19:34	technomancy	only as a proposed april fool's post?
19:35	bbloom	weak map in the sense that entries disappear if the key is no longer reachable, but persistent in the sense that i can make many small variants of a particular weak map that all share structure
19:35	bbloom	it would be observably immutable, but not seqable
19:35	bbloom	and uncounted
19:36	bbloom	technomancy: c'mon, this can't be that crazy
19:36	arrdem	bbloom: it looks... possible with some hackery.
19:36	arrdem	I consider this a rather strange datastructure... but the tools exist to forge it.
19:37	technomancy	you have to admit it sounds humorous
19:37	danielglauser	What would you use it for?
19:37	bbloom	so as some of you know, i've experimented with first class environments
19:37	bbloom	in interpreters
19:38	bbloom	the issue is related to locals clearing, where you have things you can, but don't reference going forward
19:38	bbloom	each new let binding or fn or whatever introduces a small variation on previous environments and the environments don't change
19:38	bbloom	but some portions of the environments may be "semantic garbage" in that they are never accessed again
19:39	bbloom	assuming your keys are uniquely generated ids instead of symbols
19:39	bbloom	i guess now that i say it, that could just be one global mutable weak map, if the ids are truly unique
19:39	danielglauser	bbloom: you mention the entries disappear if they are no longer reachable, but then you say you can reach them
19:40	bbloom	danielglauser: i mean the internal structure can reach them
19:40	danielglauser	Ah...got it
19:40	bbloom	like subvec
19:40	bbloom	(doc subvec)
19:40	clojurebot	"([v start] [v start end]); Returns a persistent vector of the items in vector from start (inclusive) to end (exclusive). If end is not supplied, defaults to (count vector). This operation is O(1) and very fast, as the resulting vector shares structure with the original and no trimming is done."
19:40	Jaood	technomancy: I tested 'time lein run -m clojure.main foo.clj' vs 'time java -cp clojure-1.6.0.jar clojure.main foo.clj' and got 4 vs 1 secs
19:40	bbloom	,(def v (subvec (vec (range 1000)) 0 10))
19:40	clojurebot	#'sandbox/v
19:40	bbloom	,v
19:40	clojurebot	[0 1 2 3 4 ...]
19:40	Jaood	outside of a lein project
19:40	technomancy	Jaood: do you have a lot of user plugins?
19:41	bbloom	^^ 9990 wasted values
19:41	bbloom	or i guess 990
19:41	technomancy	Jaood: I've gotten lein to launch in ~800 ms outside a project
19:41	technomancy	and I have a computer from 2009
19:42	Jaood	technomancy: only {:user {:plugins [[cider/cider-nrepl "0.8.0-SNAPSHOT"]]}} - could that be it?
19:42	technomancy	I don't think so, but try without?
19:44	Jaood	technomancy: yeah, without that plugin the results are most equal
19:45	technomancy	wow
19:45	technomancy	probably worth filing a bug report
19:46	Jaood	technomancy: to cider-nrepl or lein?
19:46	technomancy	Jaood: cider-nrepl
19:46	bobwilliams	is there a way to run lein such that you do not have to restart it on code changes?
19:47	technomancy	bobwilliams: lein repl?
19:48	Jaood	bobwilliams: yeah, that's what the repl is for
19:48	bobwilliams	technomancy: thx! I'm writing a HipChat bot in clojure
19:48	bobwilliams	technomancy: and so need to run the code and test the plugins and what not
19:49	bobwilliams	technomancy, Jaood: was looking for away to have it restart or whatnot as I'm making changes...guess I could do repl
19:49	technomancy	doesn't really matter what you're writing; reloading the code as you go is just how you write clojure
19:49	bobwilliams	technomancy, Jaood: thx!
19:49	technomancy	(or any non-painful language, now that you mention it)
19:49	bobwilliams	haha!
19:50	bobwilliams	yea, was wondering if anything existed that would detect a file change and auto-restart lein basically..might have just found my next project :D
19:51	technomancy	there's a few of them out there, but you should use a repl
19:52	technomancy	if you want to get fancy, configure your editor to send a reload command on save
19:55	amalloy_	yeah, auto-restarting on file change is not as fun as it sounds. you save files a lot more often than you think, and you have state in your repl that you don't want to accidentally blow away
19:55	arrdem	technomancy: got a minute?
19:56	technomancy	arrdem: sorta
19:56	arrdem	technomancy: would later/tomorrow be better
19:56	technomancy	yeah, cleaning up after an outage ATM
19:56	arrdem	kk
19:57	Jaood	technomancy: did you remove the line where it said that leiningen is like ri, bundler, gems, irb all together?
19:58	technomancy	Jaood: I never said that, and if someone once said that, I'm glad it's been removed =)
20:00	Jaood	technomancy: oh its in the tutorial, I knew I saw it somewhere, I exaggerated a little though ;)
20:00	Jaood	it was RubyGems/Bundler/Rake
20:07	Jaood	its still true though, from an outsider leiningen really is RubyGems/Bundler/Rake/ri/irb :)
20:16	bobwilliams	technomancy: thanks again!
21:08	TimMc	Gotta say, I'm not really seeing the usefulness of this Transit thing.
21:14	xeqi	anyone know of an instaparse grammar for clojure?
21:20	gfredericks	TimMc: compared to?
21:20	TimMc	JSON?
21:22	gfredericks	TimMc: I think not having so much contextual types everywhere seems like a good thing; same selling point for edn
21:22	TimMc	The Cognitect post didn't do a very good job of defending the creation of a new format.
21:22	TimMc	Could've used a real-world example of where it would be superior.
21:23	TimMc	gfredericks: The self-describing nature sounds better than data-readers, sure...
21:23	gfredericks	it's the same as data-readers
21:24	gfredericks	a little less global I guess
21:26	gfredericks	maybe more tied to system types
21:29	arrdem	xeqi: there isn't an official one, but I've been working on one as part of http://github.com/oxlang/oxlang
21:30	arrdem	xeqi: expect to test/debug/improve that one tho, it's got three or four of my 3am exhausted daze hours in it and nothing more.
21:34	TimMc	gfredericks: There's also some very important stuff missing from the spec. I just raised this issue: https://github.com/cognitect/transit-format/issues/18
21:34	TimMc	That could make or break it.
21:35	gfredericks	TimMc: is string encoding not handled by the underlying transport?
21:35	gfredericks	e.g., json
21:35	TimMc	Sort of.
21:37	TimMc	For instance, JSON can contain "any Unicode character" except for some syntactic ones and the control characters.
21:37	xeqi	arrdem: neat
21:37	xeqi	thanks
21:37	gfredericks	TimMc: so...therefore transit can as well?
21:37	TimMc	Does this mean that 𐀀 is transmitted in UTF-8, or UTF-16?
21:37	Balveda	Question; how could I eagerly concatenate a string?
21:37	arrdem	xeqi: hope it helps... note that there are several known issues with that grammar especially around the #"" literal.
21:37	gfredericks	TimMc: the JSON parser will worry about that won't it?
21:38	TimMc	Or will it be encoded in \uXXXX format? And if so, in which format?
21:38	arrdem	Balveda: (apply str string1 string2)
21:38	TimMc	gfredericks: It's more a question of the encoder.
21:38	xeqi	arrdem: I might just wait, considering doing some stuff for yet another side project
21:38	llasram	TimMc: I'm not a big fan of transit so far, but I don't think that's really an issue
21:38	TimMc	JSON is a character-oriented format; Transit is byte-oriented. I think.
21:38	gfredericks	TimMc: I fail to see how this could cause a problem
21:38	Balveda	thanks
21:38	gfredericks	TimMc: transit runs on top of json
21:39	arrdem	xeqi: heh we'll see I may make fixing that grammar tonight's project.
21:39	arrdem	xeqi: what's this for?
21:39	llasram	I'm pretty sure Transit strings are in fact character-oriented, just like strings on the JVM
21:39	TimMc	llasram: The example on transit-clj has it writing to a ByteArrayOutputStream, so that's not obvious to me.
21:39	gfredericks	TimMc: it converts to json first
21:39	TimMc	Bottom line: I do not want to have to assume it does the right thing.
21:40	Balveda	also, how do I nuke an entire sexp in paredit?
21:40	gfredericks	C-k
21:41	TimMc	gfredericks: And then? After it converts to JSON?
21:41	xeqi	arrdem: considering modifying marginalia to output differently for a site similar to gobyexample.com, and I'm not sure aobut its current parsing internals
21:41	llasram	TimMc: That seems like just Java laziness, assuming that the character-oriented JSON round-trips through bytes as UTF-8
21:41	gfredericks	TimMc: well you can write it to a byte array output stream just like you can with json
21:42	TimMc	gfredericks: That requires the use of a transformation format.
21:42	TimMc	Which one are they using? It's not specified.
21:42	xeqi	arrdem: and theres already an issue for changing it (parsley mentioned explicitly, but instaparse also could work)
21:42	xeqi	arrdem: did your oxcart talk get recorded?
21:43	gfredericks	TimMc: is this a problem with JSON as well?
21:44	TimMc	JSON ignores this -- a JSON document is a sequence of Unicode code points.
21:45	gfredericks	okay so the complaint is that they don't specify how the json characters are encoded by their byte writers
21:45	TimMc	You are permitted to encode any code point, but not required except with C0 (and DEL?), ", and \.
21:46	TimMc	Sure, although I'm not familiar with MessagePack.
21:50	gfredericks	how do people get away with not thinking about this when they sling json all over the internet?
21:50	TimMc	fuck if I know
21:50	TimMc	I mean... really, they don't.
21:51	TimMc	At my last job I discovered that ExtJS was just using eval to "parse" JSON.
21:51	llasram	Because they trust their underlying Unicode-data transport to correctly encode their Unicode characters
21:51	llasram	Which is exactly what is happening in the transit-clj example, using the default UTF-8 encoding
21:51	TimMc	llasram: Default, eh?
21:51	TimMc	Whose default?
21:51	llasram	The JVM's, right?
21:52	TimMc	hahahahaha
21:52	gfredericks	llasram: well you have to coordinate that with others, no?
21:52	TimMc	I can tell you use a Mac or Linux.
21:52	gfredericks	or just hope it's everybody's default?
21:52	bbloom	Balveda: arrdem: you don't need that apply
21:52	bbloom	,(str "abc" "xyz") ; Balveda
21:52	clojurebot	"abcxyz"
21:52	bbloom	,(apply str "abc" "xyz") ; same thing but slower
21:52	clojurebot	"abcxyz"
21:53	TimMc	llasram: On Windows, the default character encoding -- conveyed from system, to JVM, to your Clojure apps -- is Windows-1252.
21:53	llasram	TimMc: Ok, could be UTF-16 on Windows? Either way
21:53	TimMc	I've been there, dude.
21:54	llasram	Hmm
21:54	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
21:54	llasram	Well, I'll believe you, but will hold out some hope that your experience was with Java 1.5 or such :-
21:54	llasram	:-) even
21:54	bbloom	isn't the default encoding on the jvm even locale dependent?
21:55	TimMc	You must always specify the character encoding when opening a stream in Java, unless you're using a library (like ztellman/byte-streams) that Does The Right Thing.
21:55	llasram	But it's bed time EDT. I'll see in the morning what revelations are revealed!
21:55	TimMc	bbloom: I'm pretty sure, yeah.
21:55	bbloom	http://www.i18nguy.com/unicode/turkish-i18n.html cringe
21:56	TimMc	fucking Turkısh
21:57	TimMc	or English. I mean, the Turkish way kind of makes more sense.
21:58	gfredericks	the transit-java repo does not contain the string "UTF"
22:00	TimMc	transit-clj has it... in the XML preamble and in the string "outputFile". :-P
22:04	gfredericks	so if they'd kept their APIs at the character level this would be a non-issue?
22:04	gfredericks	messagepack is supposedly binary; I have no idea what that means wrt strings
22:06	TimMc	gfredericks: Yeah, but it's almost certianly better to simply define the character encoding as UTF-8 and be done with it.
22:08	ivan	In 2010 I tested a bunch of browser APIs and decided to transmit everything as ASCII to avoid problems with XHR and XDomainRequest and Flash
22:08	gfredericks	TimMc: so the users don't have to bother
22:08	ivan	XDomainRequest was the weirdest, U+FFFD'ing non-characters
22:09	TimMc	ivan: Did you b64 everything?
22:09	ivan	TimMc: I JSON'ed everything with escapes
22:09	ivan	of course this is not a great solution because you are using 6 bytes and you can't human-read non-English
22:10	TimMc	Oh, I didn't finish telling about ExtJS -- because it uses eval to parse JSON, it breaks when U+2028 or U+2029 comes down the pike, since those aren't valid whitespace in JS.
22:10	TimMc	And come down the pike they did, eventually. So yeah, shit just breaks.
22:11	TimMc	(So kids, remember to escape U+2028/2029 even though the spec doesn't require it...)
22:12	ivan	Python 2.7.6:
22:12	ivan	>>> print json.dumps(u"\u2027\u2028", ensure_ascii=False)
22:12	ivan	"‧
22:12	ivan	>>> print simplejson.dumps(u"\u2027\u2028", ensure_ascii=False)
22:12	ivan	"‧\u2028"
22:12	gfredericks	TimMc: so back to your original point, if they DO specify a UTF-8 default, that would make transit immediately superior to json in that respect?
22:13	gfredericks	I remember rich saying "all existing json is automatically valid transit" so that might be problematic
22:13	gfredericks	but I guess they also said they haven't nailed down the format yet either
22:14	TimMc	I feel it is important for them to specify a default encoding, yes.
22:15	TimMc	I suppose they could punt and say "naw, it's just a code-point-level format" -- but if they provide byte-oriented utilities anyhow, they'd better use UTF-8.
22:17	gfredericks	I always thought the "regular json supported too" feature was a little weird
22:19	TimMc	They don't really give an example of what that would look like, probably because it's ugly and verbose and they don't want people to latch onto that.
22:20	gfredericks	no I think the idea was the readers could take a typical plain ole json thing and parse it the way you'd want
22:20	gfredericks	which sounds like a guaranteed ambiguity
22:21	TimMc	Hmm, it doesn't quite round-trip NaN.
22:22	TimMc	Double/NaN -> "NaN"
22:23	gfredericks	it comes back as a string you mean?
22:23	TimMc	yeah
22:25	TimMc	gfredericks: OK, that's fucked. The JSON {"foo":"bar"} reads as {"foo" "bar"}; the JSON {"~foo":"bar"} gives NumberFormatException
22:26	gfredericks	TimMc: that's the ambiguity I referred to :)
22:26	TimMc	{"~~foo":"bar"} reads as {"~foo" "bar"}, though...
22:26	gfredericks	yeah ~~ is an escape for ~ I think
22:27	TimMc	gfredericks: Yeah, just verifying 'cause I hadn't notice that "feature".
22:27	gfredericks	it might be that the feature is sort of a side effect of supporting the pretty-json format
22:28	TimMc	"This is useful for configuration files" <-- that's just asking for someone to request comments
22:31	TimMc	Hmm! From RFC 7159: "JSON text SHALL be encoded in UTF-8, UTF-16, or UTF-32."
22:32	gfredericks	lol
22:33	TimMc	and then it says the default is UTF-8
22:41	gfredericks	messagepack's corresponding documentation would be relevant
22:41	gfredericks	I guess that would be what it thinks a string is, rather than how to encode it
22:49	TimMc	gfredericks: Where did you see that it could take plain JSON?
22:51	amalloy	gfredericks: i know at my last job there were numerous instances of "oh shit, we didn't think about character encoding for our json, and now stuff is broken"
22:51	Balveda	If I have a variadic function with an apply str, which would be the best way to deal with the n parameters, seeing as how they come in as a list?
22:54	TimMc	Balveda: Like, you have (fn foo [& args] (apply str args)) ?
22:54	amalloy	i liked to say that i spent 25% of my time there reminding people that character encodings are hard, and another 25% reminding people that times/dates are impossible
22:54	TimMc	amalloy: nod
22:54	Balveda	never mind
22:54	Balveda	just use another apply str
22:58	gfredericks	TimMc: rich said it in his talk
22:58	TimMc	Oh phew, it's not java.net.URI
23:02	kristof	Next clojureconj should be in anchorage
23:04	amalloy	or in Ångström so they learn to be more careful about character encodings
23:04	amalloy	is that a place? i think it's a place
23:04	amalloy	maybe it's just a name. point stands though
23:07	kristof	Java is... UCS-2 internally, yeah?
23:08	amalloy	utf-16, i think, which is slightly different
23:08	amalloy	but maybe not
23:08	kristof	slighter than slightly
23:10	TEttinger	,(int \𐀀)
23:10	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unsupported character: \𐀀>
23:10	TEttinger	woah
23:10	TEttinger	,(map int "𐀀")
23:10	clojurebot	(55296 56320)
23:11	TEttinger	ah, multibyte
23:11	TEttinger	good test char
23:11	TimMc	amalloy: UCS-2 doesn't have surrogate pairs, IIRC.
23:11	amalloy	TimMc: right, i went and looked it p
23:12	TEttinger	looks like a telephone pole
23:12	TEttinger	,(long \𐀀)
23:12	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unsupported character: \𐀀>
23:12	TimMc	gfredericks: At this point I'm thinking that some verbose-json outputs might coincidentally be readable as JSON, but that it's not expected that all JSON can be readable as verbose-json transit.
23:13	TEttinger	what even... is transit
23:13	TEttinger	I've seen that it has an IRC channel
23:13	TimMc	TEttinger: And ##(char 0x10000)
23:13	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Value out of range for char: 65536
23:13	TEttinger	I saw a clj lib for it
23:13	TimMc	TEttinger: http://blog.cognitect.com/blog/2014/7/22/transit
23:15	TEttinger	some big names on that contributor list
23:17	TEttinger	I've found libgdx's dialect of json to be particularly human-readable. The only difference from regular json is that it isn't valid js because unquoted words are automatically turned into strings
23:19	johnwalker	is there a standard place for lein plugins to use for configuration ?
23:20	TimMc	johnwalker: Like, system-wide conf, or project conf?
23:20	TEttinger	johnwalker, good question. what does yours do?
23:21	TimMc	Midje allows the use of a config file at the project root, but most plugins just have you attach things to the project.clj.
23:21	johnwalker	well, plugin configuration
23:21	johnwalker	this one should be system-wide
23:21	johnwalker	the plugin adds new dependencies to project.clj's
23:22	TimMc	Probably in the user's profiles file.
23:23	TimMc	johnwalker: Is this dynamic injection into projects, or actually modifying the on-disk files? And what kind of dependencies?
23:24	johnwalker	it's actually modifying disk files
23:24	johnwalker	so you can do lein plz add cljs and get the latest clojurescript dependency appended to :dependencies
23:24	TimMc	Yeah, ~/.lein/profiles.clj sounds like a good place.
23:24	johnwalker	the thing that needs to be in configuration is the map of abbreviations
23:25	johnwalker	well, thats what i think too
23:25	xeqi	johnwalker: you want to let the user change the abbrevation map?
23:25	johnwalker	xeqi: thats right
23:26	johnwalker	so theres an edn map that goes {:org.clojure/clojurescript #{"cljs" "clojurescript" etc}}
23:27	johnwalker	TimMc: but the thing thats weird is that the project map passed by leiningen doesn't contain all of whats in profiles.clj
23:27	xeqi	and I really wanted to use https://clojars.org/clojurescript
23:28	johnwalker	xeqi: lol, well thats one reason i'm letting the user specify. the other is so you can have reasonable defaults and then go crazy with one character to a project
23:29	johnwalker	it's really cute. i like it and it works.
23:31	xeqi	johnwalker: lein will only add based on the profiles its using at the time. Do you have the map under {:user {:abbrevations ...}} or such
23:32	johnwalker	thats right
23:32	bbloom	,(declare foo)
23:32	clojurebot	#'sandbox/foo
23:32	bbloom	,(def foo foo)
23:32	clojurebot	#'sandbox/foo
23:32	bbloom	,foo
23:32	clojurebot	#<Unbound Unbound: #'sandbox/foo>
23:32	bbloom	,@foo
23:32	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Var$Unbound cannot be cast to java.util.concurrent.Future>
23:33	bbloom	fun
23:33	xeqi	,(def bar foo)
23:33	clojurebot	#'sandbox/bar
23:33	xeqi	,@bar
23:33	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Var$Unbound cannot be cast to java.util.concurrent.Future>
23:35	xeqi	,bar
23:35	clojurebot	#<Unbound Unbound: #'sandbox/foo>
23:35	johnwalker	ahh
23:35	johnwalker	are you saying i need to add the profile to the plugin ?
23:36	johnwalker	i only had some data in the system profiles.clj, but didn't do anything in the project's
23:36	xeqi	no, I just wanted to make sure :abbrevations or whatever wasn't in the top most map
23:36	johnwalker	oh
23:40	bbloom	whoa:
23:41	bbloom	,(def cool #'cool)
23:41	clojurebot	#'sandbox/cool
23:41	bbloom	,cool
23:41	clojurebot	#'sandbox/cool
23:41	brehaut	tying the knot with vars?
23:42	xeqi	,@cool
23:42	clojurebot	#'sandbox/cool
23:42	bbloom	brehaut: i'm always up to something no-good
23:42	xeqi	ahh, I thought that was going to blow up
23:42	brehaut	bbloom: careful, that way lies haskell ;)
23:44	bbloom	it seems like the DefExpr$Parser creates the var and gives it to the def, so when def is evalutated (or compiled, i guess) the var already exists, even though it's not in the current env of the init yet
23:50	Balveda	How could I remove a key value pair from a map and keep the rest?
23:54	xeqi	Balveda: ##(doc dissoc)
23:54	lazybot	⇒ "([map] [map key] [map key & ks]); dissoc[iate]. Returns a new map of the same (hashed/sorted) type, that does not contain a mapping for key(s)."
23:54	technomancy	johnwalker: are you using the change task for this?
23:54	johnwalker	technomancy: no, but it sounds like i should
23:54	johnwalker	i was using rewrite-clj
23:55	technomancy	eh; that works too if you're not concerned about dependencies
23:55	Balveda	Thanks xeqi
23:55	Balveda	,(inc xeqi)
23:55	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: xeqi in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
23:56	johnwalker	lein change probably takes care of this nasty indentation business
23:56	Balveda	(inc xeqi)
23:56	lazybot	⇒ 12
23:58	johnwalker	actually it looks like it's basically the same thing
23:58	johnwalker	i'll switch and cut off a dependency