#clojure – 2014-07-27

2014-07-27

00:36	lpvb	I'm sorry I asked this question before but had to afk,
00:36	lpvb	do swap! reset! compare-and-set! block?
00:37	jeremyheiler	lpvb: do you mean block as in sync/async, or block as in locking?
00:38	lpvb	um, I think locking, if that's the one where the function doesnt return until it's completed
00:39	jeremyheiler	ok, so atoms don't block in the sense that they don't lock up a thread. but they do return synchronously. i believe you mean the latter.
00:39	jeremyheiler	that is, they complete their action before returning
00:40	lpvb	oh
00:40	lpvb	yea that's what I meant
00:40	lpvb	whats the difference between locking
00:42	Fare	is there a builtin equivalent of CL's ignore-errors, or do I have to define it with a try / catch all
00:43	Fare	how do I catch all?
00:43	jeremyheiler	lpvb: locking specifically has to do with thread coordination. so, if it were a locking mechinism, another thread that tries to change that atom concurrently will block until the original unlocks it. however, it doesn't do it that way.
00:44	lpvb	jeremyheiler: oh I knew that one, I was just confused from the wording
00:44	jeremyheiler	yeah, i suppose the word "blocking" is overloaded :-/
00:45	jeremyheiler	... or at least can imply different things at a high level
00:46	Fare	is there a standard way to strip a string's prefix?
00:46	jeremyheiler	Fare: you catch Exception (or Throwable if you want to catch even fatal jvm errors)
00:46	jeremyheiler	Fare: clojure.core/subs ?
00:59	john2x	why is subs in clojure.core, and not in clojure.string?
01:00	TEttinger	it's probably used in clojure.core internally?
01:00	TEttinger	macro whatnot?
01:02	jeremyheiler	hmm... it is used internally, but so is .substring
01:03	jeremyheiler	looks like subs was introduced in 1.0, but clojure.string was in 1.2
01:07	Fare	jeremyheiler, yes, that's what I do. Just wanted to know if there were builtins for the same.
01:09	jeremyheiler	Fare: nope :-/
01:10	Fare	I'm slowly but surely developing a collection of random small utilities.
01:53	kristof	Fare: Wrong channel but are you familiar with subject-oriented programming?
01:54	kristof	Fare: Your discussion on multiple "views" of the same essential object using composition of interfaces reminded me of it, and I believe you wrote that you were looking for good examples of such uses
01:55	kristof	Fare: I was going to suggest that the papers on SOP would surely yield such examples and I was even thinking of rewriting many of them myself using LIL just as an exercise
01:58	Fare	kristof, not super-familiar
01:59	Fare	do you mean something similar to urbit or nominine?
01:59	kristof	Not in the slightest, I have no idea how urbit could relate
01:59	kristof	Isn't urbit dead in the water while Curtis figures out his jets or whatever?
02:50	tuft	o
02:51	tuft	hmm, momentarily tmux confused there
02:56	Fare	kristof, didn't slate implement subject-oriented programming?
02:57	Fare	and/or AspectL ?
02:58	Fare	you can of course reimplement it using Interface-Passing Style.
02:59	Fare	where your interfaces can be seen as the subject
03:17	ProTip	Anyone familair with using om?
05:23	daGrevis	hi! how could i say something like if “x“ is in ["x" "y" "z"] ?
05:25	daGrevis	looks like im looking for contains?
05:29	TEttinger	,(#{"x" "y" "z"} "x")
05:29	clojurebot	"x"
05:29	TEttinger	,(#{"x" "y" "z"} "a")
05:29	clojurebot	nil
05:29	TEttinger	sets are functions, daGrevis
05:30	daGrevis	i didn't have set though
05:30	TEttinger	,(doc contains?)
05:30	clojurebot	"([coll key]); Returns true if key is present in the given collection, otherwise returns false. Note that for numerically indexed collections like vectors and Java arrays, this tests if the numeric key is within the range of indexes. 'contains?' operates constant or logarithmic time; it will not perform a linear search for a value. See also 'some'."
05:30	TEttinger	there's that too
05:30	daGrevis	yep, did that with contains?
05:30	TEttinger	haha I thought you were asking a question at first
05:30	TEttinger	the ? at the end threw me off
05:30	H4ns	daGrevis: only that it does not work, as contains? checks for the index range, not the values
05:31	H4ns	daGrevis: ((set ["x" "y" "z"]) "x")
05:31	daGrevis	TEttinger, ha :)
05:32	TEttinger	you're right, H4ns -- "key is present" not "value is present"
05:32	daGrevis	H4ns, right. good catch
05:33	TEttinger	(inc H4ns)
05:33	lazybot	⇒ 1
05:34	daGrevis	any idea how could i check that something is a English word or isn't?
05:34	daGrevis	want to filter out stuff like “anc2iwv9wh“
05:35	daGrevis	i have idea myself. get entropy of that
05:58	hyPiRion	daGrevis: sliding window + dictionary?
05:59	hyPiRion	If you just want to check if something is an English word, you only need to look it up in a map.
05:59	daGrevis	i want to let through words with mistakes etc.
06:01	hyPiRion	uh. I'd go with Levensthein-Damerau then
06:01	daGrevis	okay, I will read about it
06:01	daGrevis	is there something like take-while that includes the element that returned false?
06:03	daGrevis	,(take-while #(== % 2) [1 2 3 4])
06:03	clojurebot	()
06:03	daGrevis	oh well ignore that
06:04	farhaven	daGrevis: do you only want to know _if_ something is an english word or do you want to offer translations?
06:04	farhaven	for the former, a bloom filter could be a nice idea
06:04	daGrevis	farhaven, i want only to know
06:05	hyPiRion	farhaven: bloom filters would be reasonable if daGrevis didn't want words which may be mistakes to pass through
06:06	daGrevis	well i think that i can fix problem in the root
06:06	farhaven	make the filter large enough and errors become almost impossible :P
06:06	daGrevis	u see i get those words from twitter
06:06	daGrevis	and i parse them by simple regex
06:06	farhaven	heh, good luck finding any english in there
06:07	daGrevis	i get links inside them too and I don't want stuff like t.co/abc123 there
06:07	daGrevis	actually it's more like t.co and abc123 based on my current regex
06:07	daGrevis	farhaven, :)
06:09	daGrevis	might as well parse some book
07:41	gfixler	How would one achive (map vector [1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9]) if the vectors were infinite?
08:24	AeroNotix	gfixler: take
08:25	AeroNotix	gfixler: https://gist.github.com/AeroNotix/a45de619ad2d4245cd53
08:25	AeroNotix	map returns a lazy seq
08:25	hyPiRion	gfixler: do you mean an infinite number of vectors?
08:41	expez	I'm trying to read a file in a macro but the form (io/file some-file) barfs complaining that some-file is a symbol. How do I fix this?
08:41	AeroNotix	expez: show macro
08:43	expez	(defmacro my-macro [my-file] (println (slurp (io/file my-file)))) would be a minimal example
08:43	AeroNotix	so you need to splice the my-file variable
08:43	AeroNotix	and also, you need to return a syntax quoted form
08:44	AeroNotix	since that body will be evaluated at compile-time
08:44	AeroNotix	and thus, my-file is literally a symbol
08:44	expez	right, I want to use the content of the file to build the source, but I'm having problems reading the file at compile time
08:46	expez	Perhaps it's easier if I just wrap the macro in a function which reads the file?
08:46	AeroNotix	expez: show how you're calling this
08:47	AeroNotix	because if you want the file to be read at compile-time, you need to pass something which has a value at compile-time
08:47	AeroNotix	so that would be a string in the case of io/file
08:47	AeroNotix	It only operates on the raw syntactic elements, not the values they may represent at runtime
08:48	AeroNotix	expez: look
08:48	AeroNotix	https://gist.github.com/AeroNotix/cba1855cc8bf18f0b612
08:48	AeroNotix	because the macro gets the symbol 'c
08:48	AeroNotix	not the string it represents
08:49	AeroNotix	because at macroexpansion time, this is all it has
08:49	AeroNotix	Unfortunately Macros are not covered in as much depth as they should be
08:50	expez	Might be a blessing in disguise
08:50	expez	In cl I found the need to write a macro a lot more often
08:51	AeroNotix	That's probably not the case
08:51	AeroNotix	Macros are overused
08:51	AeroNotix	but, perhaps you need one here -- what are you trying to do?
08:52	expez	I'm writing a small library that records the arg => result pairs for certain functions and then creates mocks using the arg => result pairs it squirreled away
08:52	expez	well, I'm trying :)
08:52	AeroNotix	expez: so the first part is taken care of by memoization
08:53	AeroNotix	expez: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/memoize
08:53	expez	I want to persist this to disk, so my tests don't hit external services
08:54	AeroNotix	IIRC memoize puts the mapping as part of its metadata
08:54	AeroNotix	you could run your tests once, read out the memoize data
08:54	AeroNotix	TBH -- this seems like a lot of work just to not write mocks yourself
08:55	llasram	expez: So the goal is a more general version of something like the Ruby VCR library?
08:55	expez	That's what I thought, but when the external services keep changing I found myself manually capturing a lot of data for use in mocks
08:56	expez	llasram: yeah, that's the idea
08:57	expez	Figured this would be pretty easy to write, but that project has 1.7k commits Oo
08:57	AeroNotix	For something basic it'd be pretty easy
08:58	llasram	expez: My suggestion for approaching this would be to write a very small macro which uses `with-redefs`
08:58	AeroNotix	yeah^
08:58	AeroNotix	and having your body executed by logging the args and values to disk
08:59	AeroNotix	And your macro would also generate code for reading a specific file (this can be done at runtime)
08:59	llasram	Well
08:59	llasram	Having trouble phrasing for some reason
08:59	llasram	But I think it'd be easier if the macro did nothing but the `with-redefs`
08:59	expez	yeah, this is the part I got stuck on, trying to read the bindings for with-redefs from file
08:59	llasram	And the main body of the work happened in the generated function you redef too
08:59	AeroNotix	llasram: this^
08:59	llasram	Interesting
08:59	AeroNotix	There's no reason it needs to read the file at compile time
09:00	AeroNotix	macroexpansion time*
09:00	AeroNotix	just generate the code for it
09:00	expez	mhmm :)
09:00	expez	Thanks guys!
09:00	llasram	expez: Why do you need to specify the bindings in a file?
09:00	AeroNotix	llasram: to persist across runs
09:00	AeroNotix	they want to run their tests, get initial values, run tests again using the values from the previous run
09:01	AeroNotix	for some functions
09:01	llasram	I guess I'm thinking of the VCR style, where you write your test, it captures data the first time you run it, then it regurgitates the captured data on subsequent runs
09:01	llasram	In that model, you'd specify the functions to wrap in your test
09:01	AeroNotix	llasram: sure -- but it needs to persist this data somewhere, right?
09:02	llasram	Sure. I'm just talking about specifically "then bindings for with-redefs"
09:02	llasram	s,then,the,
09:02	AeroNotix	not sure what they meant by that
09:02	llasram	Indeed
09:02	llasram	And now we may never know...
09:03	AeroNotix	This doesn
09:03	AeroNotix	This doesn't seem like a difficult task for Lisp
09:03	AeroNotix	I'd probably make something like defn-recorded
09:05	AeroNotix	expez: https://github.com/ifesdjeen/vcr-clj
09:05	AeroNotix	there's this
09:06	AeroNotix	I have the same reservations as Alex there
09:06	AeroNotix	Mocking stuff is notoriously difficult to do properly
09:09	expez	yup
11:18	mi6x3m-alt	hey guys, what would you call a function returning the page size of a webbrowser page?
11:18	mi6x3m-alt	page-size [browser] ?
11:20	jeremyheiler	mi6x3m-alt: do you not like page-size?
11:22	mi6x3m-alt	jeremyheiler: nah, just asking :)
11:22	mi6x3m-alt	without or with verb
11:25	jeremyheiler	it seems fine, given the context you gave
11:28	vdmit11	Hi folks. I need to define a type whose interface and semantics almost exactly matches to list. The only difference I need is a different class name and perhaps a custom toString method. How can I do that?
11:30	vdmit11	In other words, I need to inherit list. I know inheritance is bad, but in this case it helps to avoid boilerplate code.
11:31	bbloom	vdmit11: do you really mean list? or seq?
11:32	dnolen_	vdmit11: if you're talking about deftype not possible, you just have to write the code
11:32	dnolen_	or defrecord for that matter
11:36	vdmit11	well, generally I need a sequence, but the list is the most suitable thing for me
11:38	Glenjamin	why cant you just use an actual list?
11:43	vdmit11	Well, I collect actions into lists. And there is two slightly different kinds of such list: one means "actions are done in sequence", another means "actions are done in parallel". They may be nested to each other and so on. And I would like to distinguish them, and I think it is not really a metadata, so I think perhaps I can just make two classes with the same behavior but different names.
11:45	H4ns	use a hash with a type and a list key. the type indicates whether it is parallel or sequential.
11:45	bbloom	yes, what H4ns said
11:45	bbloom	or, use a vector and a set
11:46	bbloom	[do this and then this] vs #{do all these in any order}
11:47	H4ns	no need for a "type", that is the message. just combine the existing data strutures in the way that you require.
11:47	TimMc	vdmit11: Yes, as others have said, the correct answer is to lift the tagging from the virtual machine level (class-tagged objects) to the "userspace" level -- tag/list pairs.
11:48	vdmit11	set looks more suitable because the order of parallel actions doesn't matter, but it requires the elements to be unique, and I think I may have duplicate actions done in parallel
11:50	vdmit11	tagging in a hash-map looks a bit redundant, but if there is no cleaner way, I'll use it
12:01	bbloom	i'm sure there's a multiset out there somewhere :-)
12:03	myguidingstar	Someone please help with this strange Clojurescript compilation error: https://gist.github.com/myguidingstar/ad29083023130817eb01
12:08	gfredericks	myguidingstar: that's definitely a weird use of macros
12:08	gfredericks	i.e., calling macroexpand
12:09	gfredericks	myguidingstar: are you sure you need a macro here?
12:09	myguidingstar	gfredericks, I know it, but I need an abstraction over javascript
12:10	gfredericks	myguidingstar: what are you trying to do exactly?
12:10	myguidingstar	gfredericks, please consider it a playground. I don't understand why the compiler yelled that message
12:14	gfredericks	I don't either.
12:14	gfredericks	and I don't have a cljs setup so I can't try reproducing outside of vanilla clojure
12:18	gfredericks	(and macroexpanding that in vanilla clojure doesn't give anything suspicious)
12:19	dnolen_	,{{}}
12:19	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Map literal must contain an even number of forms>
12:19	dnolen_	hrm, anyways myguidingstar my guess is that you have a malformed map based on the error
12:20	dnolen_	,(hash-map {})
12:20	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No value supplied for key: {}>
12:21	dnolen_	but also those macros don't make sense I can't really understand them
12:28	myguidingstar	dnolen_, I've just updated the explanation
12:28	myguidingstar	btw, do you think it's a bug?
12:30	dnolen_	myguidingstar: I still have no idea what you are trying to do or why you trying to do it
12:30	gfredericks	myguidingstar: line 26 should fail the read regardless
12:30	dnolen_	if I can determine the above then maybe we can talk about bugs
12:30	dnolen_	that said ... I doubt it
12:31	myguidingstar	dnolen_, I'm trying to make a Compojure-like abstraction over a javascript request handler
12:32	dnolen_	myguidingstar: but what is the macro doing for you here?
12:32	dnolen_	it seems to serve no purpose
12:32	myguidingstar	dnolen_, user can use Clojure map to define what a request return
12:33	myguidingstar	(instead of imperatively calling Javascript)
12:33	gfredericks	myguidingstar: why can't you do that with a function?
12:33	dnolen_	myguidingstar: what gfredericks said
12:34	myguidingstar	gfredericks, yes of course, but a macro should produce shorter javascript at runtime
12:35	myguidingstar	anw, please consider it a playground
12:36	dnolen_	myguidingstar: remember, you have Google Closure Compiler working for you - anything you might do by hand will be trivial compared to that.
12:36	myguidingstar	dnolen_, thanks. I didn't think about it
12:37	myguidingstar	anw, I want to learn an other thing about this mess, too
12:38	mi6x3m-alt	is there a version of doto that returns nil?
12:38	myguidingstar	(sorry for being so annoying)
12:38	gfredericks	mi6x3m-alt: no
12:38	gfredericks	myguidingstar: maybe try to produce a more minimal case?
12:39	gfredericks	extra points if it involve just one macro
12:39	mi6x3m-alt	gfredericks: thanks
12:39	myguidingstar	gfredericks, I did, and that one worked
12:42	gfredericks	myguidingstar: e.g., try it without the map, or with fewer keys in the map
12:42	gfredericks	without the pr-str
12:42	gfredericks	etc etc
12:43	dnolen_	,(let [{:keys [foo]} '(foo [] {})] foo)
12:43	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No value supplied for key: {}>
12:43	dnolen_	myguidingstar: ^
12:43	dnolen_	myguidingstar: my-response is getting (end [] {}) unevaluated and you're trying to destructure that
12:43	dnolen_	er (end [] {})
12:44	myguidingstar	dnolen_, you're right. But I tried with (macroexpand ...)
12:44	myguidingstar	and it still failed
12:44	gfredericks	oh geez I didn't know you could map-destructure a not-map
12:44	dnolen_	myguidingstar: if you need to call macroexpand in a macro ... game over
12:44	dnolen_	myguidingstar: so the only good that will come of this is understanding how macros work ... fine if that's your goal
12:45	myguidingstar	gfredericks, I've just comment a more minimal code that works
12:46	myguidingstar	dnolen_, absolutely I want to
12:46	myguidingstar	dnolen_, any suggestion to make it work?
12:47	dnolen_	myguidingstar: macroexpand doesn't work for different reasons
12:47	dnolen_	+ isn't defined for collections
12:47	dnolen_	you want str not +
12:47	gfredericks	dnolen_: that shouldn't fail at macroexpand time though?
12:48	gfredericks	,(macroexpand `(+ ~{} ~[]))
12:48	clojurebot	(clojure.core/+ {} [])
12:48	dnolen_	gfredericks: it's not failing at macroexpand
12:48	dnolen_	failing at runtime
12:48	gfredericks	ooh okay
12:48	myguidingstar	dnolen_, I use [] and {} to make sure it's evaluated in javascript
12:49	dnolen_	myguidingstar: macroexpand and changing + to str makes it work
12:49	dnolen_	myguidingstar: I don't know what you are saying
12:49	dnolen_	if it's a http response it's just text
12:49	dnolen_	nothing to do w/ JavaScript
12:51	myguidingstar	(+ [] {}) is just to make sure the code is executed in javascript environment, not Clojure (macro expansion)
12:51	dnolen_	myguidingstar: yes this statement does not compute
12:51	dnolen_	(+ [] {}) is not legal Clojure or ClojureScript
12:52	myguidingstar	yes, you'll get a type warning for that
12:52	myguidingstar	hmm, that's a bit off track
12:52	gfredericks	dnolen_: I think he means he can tell where + is running based on whether he gets an exception from the jvm or the js runtime
12:54	dnolen_	gfredericks: well ClojureScript has inference enough for obvious problem like this one - compiler warning
12:55	myguidingstar	dnolen_, I learnt that trick from clojurescript.test README https://github.com/cemerick/clojurescript.test
12:58	dnolen_	myguidingstar: anyways this works https://gist.github.com/swannodette/332c574cb4d9df41aa35
13:00	dnolen_	myguidingstar: but as I said before you can abstract over some JS lib w/o any of this macro stuff, it just creates more problems to do it this way.
13:01	myguidingstar	dnolen_, that's quite strange. I think I was unsuccessful with such code
13:01	myguidingstar	dnolen_, that's the best lesson for me today, thanks
13:01	gfredericks	mo macros mo problems
13:01	myguidingstar	rule #1 ;)
13:02	SagiCZ1	hey guys.. i want to assert that there is only zero or one element in a collection, if there is more, i want clojure to throw runtime exception, how do i do that?
13:02	dnolen_	SagiCZ1: assert
13:02	dnolen_	,(doc assert)
13:02	clojurebot	"([x] [x message]); Evaluates expr and throws an exception if it does not evaluate to logical true."
13:03	SagiCZ1	dnolen_: wow.. that was hard..
13:03	SagiCZ1	dnolen_: thanks :)
13:03	dnolen_	np
13:04	gfredericks	SagiCZ1: assert is only appropriate for guarding against programmer errors
13:07	whigmaleerie	dnolen_: opinion of assert vs the built-in precondition meta data?
13:08	dnolen_	whigmaleerie: just depends
13:09	bbloom	i've kinda given up on :pre
13:09	bbloom	every time i use it, i shortly later discover i need to do something to an input before i assert something about it
13:09	bbloom	and wind up rewriting it to an assert
13:11	SagiCZ1	bbloom: how would i get the only element of a list? is (first '(5)) the correct way?
13:11	SagiCZ1	,(first '(3))
13:11	clojurebot	3
13:12	bbloom	SagiCZ1: seems like a question for the room, not for me specifically...
13:12	bbloom	but yes, that's fine
13:13	SagiCZ1	sorry about that bbloom
13:13	SagiCZ1	and thanks
13:31	gfredericks	okay so I feel like transit has to have an ambiguity on the JS side
13:32	gfredericks	between ints and floats
13:32	gfredericks	42 encodes to JSON as "[\"~#'\",42]", and 42.0 to "[\"~#'\",42.0]"
13:32	gfredericks	but javascript's JSON parser parses those two identically
13:47	schmee	how do I destructure a map with a key called `time`? It errors since `time` is also a core function
13:49	hyPiRion	schmee: ##(let [{t :time} {:time "foo"}] t) ?
13:49	lazybot	⇒ "foo"
13:49	hyPiRion	or do you mean the symbol `time`?
13:50	hyPiRion	,(let [{t 'time} {'time "foo"}] t)
13:50	clojurebot	"foo"
13:51	gfredericks	,(let [{:keys [time]} {:time "foo"}] [time time])
13:51	clojurebot	["foo" "foo"]
13:51	bbloom	schmee: it absolutely should not give that error because it does not evaluate the destructuring expression
13:51	gfredericks	,(let [{:syms [time]} {'time "foo"}] [time time])
13:51	clojurebot	["foo" "foo"]
13:51	bbloom	you've got a syntax error somewhere
13:52	schmee	I see, thanks!
13:52	gfredericks	,(let [{t time} {time :foo}] t)
13:52	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/time, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
13:52	gfredericks	,(let [{t +} {+ :foo}] t)
13:52	clojurebot	:foo
13:52	gfredericks	nice
13:53	dnolen_	gfredericks: yes Transit doesn't address the problem of roundtripping floats, but that's way bigger issue than JS anyway
13:53	dnolen_	gfredericks: and for the design space - not particularly important to address
13:54	bbloom	it's really quite amusing how bad of a trade off floats are for most use cases :-/
13:55	gfredericks	dnolen_: rich seemed to say that everything roundtrips perfectly, so this surprises me
13:55	dnolen_	gfredericks: was likely speaking about tagged values specifically (perhaps implicitly)
13:55	dnolen_	so if you don't have a handler so someone's custom type, doesn't matter
13:55	gfredericks	gotcha
13:56	gfredericks	right
13:56	dnolen_	gfredericks: if for some reason you need to roundtrip floats you can override BigDec and deal w/ it yourself.
13:56	gfredericks	dnolen_: what do you mean by roundtripping floats being a big issue? something about string representations of floats in general?
13:57	dnolen_	gfredericks: floating point reps have problems between languages
13:57	gfredericks	that's not an inherent problem is it? just divergent interpretations?
13:58	dnolen_	gfredericks: I already said you can solve this yourself if it's important ^
13:59	gfredericks	dnolen_: right, I'm just trying to understand how things work; sorry for the bother
14:00	gfredericks	if anybody else knows what dnolen_ meant I would be interested
14:01	hyPiRion	gfredericks: Well, for C/C++, it is both OS and compiler-dependent.
14:02	gfredericks	hyPiRion: IEEE 64-bit floating points in particular?
14:05	hyPiRion	gfredericks: Oh, it's about 64-bit specifically?
14:05	gfredericks	well in this context we're talking about JSON, so I figured so
14:06	gfredericks	I guess they're not very specific about that
14:06	bbloom	gfredericks: floats are basically 100% broken for data interchange
14:06	gfredericks	bbloom: what I'm trying to understand is if that's justa coordination issue, i.e. lack of an adhered-to standard, or if it's something inherent to FP
14:07	bbloom	gfredericks: fundamentally, there are multiple floating point values that have the same string representation, but may produce different results when computed with
14:08	bbloom	even within the same language, round-tripping to text can change is not an identity operation
14:08	bbloom	s/can change/
14:08	bbloom	/
14:08	gfredericks	bbloom: can't you solve that with more decimal places?
14:08	bbloom	gfredericks: no
14:08	bbloom	floats aren't encoded in decimal
14:08	gfredericks	or are we talking about 0/infinity edge cases?
14:08	bbloom	no
14:08	gfredericks	I know they aren't
14:08	bbloom	http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19957-01/806-3568/ncg_goldberg.html
14:09	bbloom	in short: floats are a friggin mess
14:10	hyPiRion	Best used in banking systems if you want to maximise damage.
14:11	gfredericks	based on what I know about decimal and binary numbers, I have a hard time making sense of this
14:11	gfredericks	if there were an example of two floats that print the same way, that'd be extremely helpful
14:12	gfredericks	the set of floating point numbers (excl the weird ones) should just be a subset of the ratios
14:12	gfredericks	and you should be able to use decimal representations to get arbitrarily close to any given rational number
14:12	hyPiRion	gfredericks: +0 and -0?
14:13	hyPiRion	oh, that's probably a weird one.
14:13	gfredericks	hyPiRion: bbloom said it wasn't a 0/infinity/nan issue
14:13	gfredericks	yeah definitely weird
14:13	bbloom	gfredericks: i meant to say it's not JUST a 0/inf/nan issue
14:13	gfredericks	sure, either way
14:13	gfredericks	I'm ignoring the weird numbers for the moment since you said the normal ones have this problem too
14:15	bbloom	gfredericks: trying to find an article, hold on
14:16	gfredericks	I'm scanning through the one you already pasted
14:16	bbloom	sheesh, there's so many problems w/ floating point i don't even know where to start :-P
14:17	gfredericks	yeah I'm familiar with why they're problematic, I just didn't think they had the problem you were describing :)
14:18	bbloom	http://www.drdobbs.com/cpp/even-simple-floating-point-output-is-com/240165594
14:18	hyPiRion	gfredericks: they are represented on the form sign * significand * 2^(exponent - c)
14:18	bbloom	http://www.drdobbs.com/cpp/floating-point-input-and-output-are-not/240165984
14:18	bbloom	http://www.drdobbs.com/cpp/accurate-floating-point-input-several-co/240166140
14:18	bbloom	(the drdobbs site is atrociously difficult to navigate and for some reason breaks cmd-click in many places)
14:19	gfredericks	bbloom: I think this quote from your first link supports my hunch
14:19	gfredericks	"When a binary IEEE single precision number is converted to the closest eight digit decimal number, it is not always possible to uniquely recover the binary number from the decimal one. However, if nine decimal digits are used, then converting the decimal number to the closest binary number will recover the original floating-point number."
14:19	bbloom	gfredericks: if you read the rest, you'll see you that the standard printing mechanism does not have that property
14:19	bbloom	it tries to create "nice" looking values
14:19	bbloom	which is in line with the use cases where floats are actually valid: when accuracy doesn't matter really
14:20	gfredericks	bbloom: yeah, I can imagine real life serialization having ambiguities, I just didn't think decimal reps inherently had that problem
14:20	bbloom	gfredericks: i was talking about the printed reps
14:20	gfredericks	me too
14:20	bbloom	as spec'ed
14:20	gfredericks	there's printing in the IEEE spec?
14:20	bbloom	i thought so
14:20	gfredericks	probably so
14:21	gfredericks	so it's a spec problem then; I'm just saying it's easy enough to imagine a similar printing strategy that has no ambiguity
14:21	bbloom	yes, conversions to and from strings are in the spec according to wikipedia
14:21	gfredericks	i.e., it's not an inherent base 10 vs base 2 thing
14:21	bbloom	yes, but that printing strategy would produce reaaallly long decimal strings
14:22	gfredericks	hardly longer than the longest normal ones, no?
14:22	hyPiRion	use binary, be happy
14:22	gfredericks	:)
14:22	bbloom	well the standard string conversions include rounding, truncation, handle repeated decimals, etc
14:23	bbloom	if you can't reinterpret cast a float to a bit string, you can't possibly round trip it correctly without intrinsic support
14:23	bbloom	but the whole purpose of floats is to optimize when you don't care about losing some precision here or there
14:24	gfredericks	yeah; when I hear people complain about FP problems I usually assume it's related to the floating point magma
14:25	gfredericks	or base 2 vs base 10
14:25	bbloom	they basically only make any sense during the very last stage of a pipeline
14:25	gfredericks	whereas it sounds like this is the fact that rounding is in the serialization spec
14:25	bbloom	like colors in a rasterization buffer :-P
14:26	gfredericks	bbloom: hyPiRion: thanks
14:31	arrdem	$seen john2x
14:31	lazybot	john2x was last seen quitting 2 hours and 49 minutes ago.
14:31	arrdem	:/
14:33	gfredericks	in any case, my original question about transit wasn't about roundtripping particular floating points, it was about even roundtripping types in the first place
14:35	gfredericks	e.g., if I start with a long and a double in clojure, and I send it to JS and back, I'll get two numbers of the same type
14:35	bbloom	gfredericks: i think numerics are a problem & i've mentioned to dnolen_ that i'd like to be able to force longs
14:35	bbloom	at least for js interop's sake
14:35	gfredericks	bbloom: yeah at worst you have to avoid the ground types
14:36	bbloom	i think this is a case of "now you're talking about the real problems"
14:36	gfredericks	that just requires cooperation across the system, you can't fix it only in the user JS code
14:36	bbloom	that is, you already had these problems w/ edn, json, etc
14:36	bbloom	but now that you have a tool that papers over the (retroactively) obviously broken bits, you can see the underlying issues more lcearly
14:37	bbloom	it's like when people hear that datomic doesn't need to touch the network to get the current database, and their first thought is "isn't the data stale then?" ... yes... but so is the data you get back from a SQL query!
14:37	bbloom	same idea: once you eliminate stupid problems, the real struggles become clear... even if they are just more stupid problems :-P
14:38	arrdem	will cljs allow you to perform bitwise operations on the sign bit or does it hide bit 63 like the JVM does.
14:39	arrdem	because one option... albeit a shitty one, is to just write a Double -> BitString -> Double pipeline.
14:39	bbloom	arrdem: would defeat the performance goals....
14:39	arrdem	bbloom: fair
14:39	bbloom	if you need exact representations: don't use floats.
14:40	bbloom	full stop. with or without any network transport of any kind
14:42	gfredericks	bbloom: datomic analogy is a good one
14:42	gfredericks	bbloom: it's not exactness, it's type preservation
14:43	bbloom	gfredericks: if you lift a type/value tuple in to the domain of dynamic values, then you've got value exactness ;-)
14:43	gfredericks	yep
14:44	gfredericks	I'm not saying it was a bad design choice, I'm just interested in what the unadvertised edge cases are
14:45	bbloom	well numerics are always a good place to go splunking for edge cases!
14:45	gfredericks	when you have a lot of clojure usage at a large company, it's useful to have somebody familiar with such things
14:46	bbloom	pack on your door: Gary Fredricks -- Purveyor Of Fine Edge Cases
14:46	bbloom	s/pack/plaque/ # i wasn't even close
14:46	gfredericks	ha
14:51	vdmit11	Hi folks. When I define a protocol, I would like to specify pre/post conditions like I can do with functions. I would like to assert that all method implementations may assume that the input will be so and so, and they all shall return a value that follows certain constraints. Is there a way to do that?
14:52	schmee	Does anyone know how to use an Thread/UncaughtExceptionHandler in clojure?
14:53	mi6x3m-alt	vdmit11: ehm, not that I know of, also the pre and post condition thing is seldomly used
14:53	schmee	I tried adding this to the top of the file but it doesn't work for me, http://www.paullegato.com/blog/uncaught-exceptions-in-clojure/
14:53	gfredericks	vdmit11: defprotocol doesn't support that, but I think you can wrap the generated function via alter-var-root
14:53	bbloom	vdmit11: just define a wrapper functions for your protocol methods
14:53	gfredericks	schmee: in what way does it not work?
14:54	bbloom	(defprotocol P (-foo [this x y z])) (defn foo [p x y z] {:pre ...} (-foo p x y z))
14:54	gfredericks	I like bbloom's idea better
14:54	vdmit11	wrappers are boilerplate and they are not abstract
14:54	vdmit11	I would like to specify interface, not implementation
14:55	schmee	gfredericks: well, I found a bug in a future I'm using, and now I've reintroduced the bug and added that handler thingy with a print
14:55	arrdem	well you can't have an interface with pre/post conditions... pre/post conditions are an implementation detail handled by the fn macro
14:55	gfredericks	vdmit11: I don't think you're specifying the impl in any sense
14:55	schmee	but it just hangs and doesn't print anything
14:55	bbloom	vdmit11: clojure does not have a notion of pre/post conditions are part of interface
14:55	gfredericks	schmee: futures catch exceptions
14:55	gfredericks	schmee: you'd want to deref the future
14:56	schmee	oh!
14:56	bbloom	vdmit11: and wrapper functions really aren't all that much boilerplate... they are frequently necessary to decouple argument handling, pre/post processing, from the service interface of the objects
14:56	schmee	I'm just using the future for dispatch only, so I can't actually access the value once I've sent it off
14:56	bbloom	vdmit11: in general, you should be defining so few protocols that the "boilerplate" should be an essential part of the work you're doing
14:57	gfredericks	schmee: well it's up to you where you want to handle it I guess
14:57	bbloom	vdmit11: if you need the same boilerplate many times, then you can define a macro to generate it
14:57	gfredericks	,(defmacro elsewhere [& body] `(.start (Thread. (fn [] ~@body))))
14:57	clojurebot	#'sandbox/elsewhere
14:57	schmee	hmm yeah, I just want to print exceptions without wrapping my entire program in try/catch statements
14:57	gfredericks	schmee: ^ an alternative to future that should hit your handler
14:58	schmee	gfredericks: sweet, I'll try it out!
14:59	schmee	gfredericks: worked like a charm, thanks!
15:00	vdmit11	bbloom: well, I'm talking about readability when I say "boilerplate", when you see some pre/post conditions in the interface specification, you can understand better what kind of data must be passed to the method and what kind of value it returns, and you may assume that these assertions are always true and rely on these assumptions and write less code
15:00	vdmit11	bbloom: for me it just would be nicer to read an interface that gives some idea about inputs/outputs of a method
15:01	bbloom	vdmit11: protocols define java-style interfaces. that's just what they do. if you want a more powerful contractual programing mechanism, you'll have to look elsewhere or define it yourself
15:01	bbloom	vdmit11: i'm also telling you the community accepted approach: just define a function
15:02	vdmit11	ok, thanks, I just wanted to know the conventional way
15:03	schmee	is there any way to list the currently running threads in the repl?
15:03	bbloom	vdmit11: that's the very first thing i told you :-P
15:05	gfredericks	schmee: http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/lang/Thread.html#getAllStackTraces%28%29
15:05	gfredericks	,(Thread/getAllStackTraces)
15:05	clojurebot	#<AccessControlException java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.lang.RuntimePermission getStackTrace)>
15:05	gfredericks	I've never tried it; looks promising
15:06	gfredericks	sun.misc.Unsafe.park
15:06	gfredericks	is apparently a popular method on my jvm
15:07	schmee	gfredericks: it worked great. now I just gotta prettyprint it...
15:08	gfredericks	w00t
15:09	gfredericks	,(.getStackTrace (Thread/currentThread))
15:09	clojurebot	#<StackTraceElement[] [Ljava.lang.StackTraceElement;@f8deca>
15:09	gfredericks	,(str (firsrt (.getStackTrace (Thread/currentThread))))
15:09	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: firsrt in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
15:09	gfredericks	,(str (first (.getStackTrace (Thread/currentThread))))
15:09	clojurebot	"java.lang.Thread.getStackTrace(Thread.java:1495)"
15:10	gfredericks	,(str (rand-nth (.getStackTrace (Thread/currentThread))))
15:10	clojurebot	"clojure.core$eval74$fn__75.invoke(NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)"
15:14	gfredericks	I can't believe I didn't know about that...that will be super useful for when things are hung in the repl.
15:25	andyf	bbloom: I saw your message in the :pre/:post error message clojure-dev thread, and am wondering if I am missing something when you say "it requires non-local analysis". Do you mean it requires resolving whether the symbol number? resolves to the Var #'clojure.core/number? vs. resolving to number? in some other namespace?
15:26	bbloom	andyf: more simply:
15:26	bbloom	(def x false)
15:26	bbloom	(defn f [] {:post [x]})
15:26	bbloom	,(def x false)
15:26	clojurebot	#'sandbox/x
15:26	bbloom	,(defn f [] {:post [x]})
15:26	clojurebot	#'sandbox/f
15:26	bbloom	,(f)
15:26	clojurebot	{:post [false]}
15:26	bbloom	,(defn f [] {:post [x]} nil)
15:26	clojurebot	#'sandbox/f
15:26	bbloom	,(f)
15:26	clojurebot	#<AssertionError java.lang.AssertionError: Assert failed: x>
15:27	bbloom	andyf: does that make my comment clear?
15:28	andyf	Eastwood can look at number?, see that it should resolve to #'clojure.core/number?, and I can bake into Eastwood that such a Var is by default a function, but it is uncomputable to determine whether its current value is a boolean or not.
15:28	andyf	Eastwood makes best guesses at times like that, based on usual practice.
15:28	bbloom	andyf: right, which is why that's a good analysis for a linter, but the vector vs not vector analysis is doable in the standard defn macro, hence my patch & comment
15:29	andyf	ok, makes sense. Thanks.
15:30	bbloom	getting formal: the analysis you just described is neither sound nor complete
15:30	bbloom	but i'm an advocate for ignoring soundness and completeness ;-)
15:37	andyf	in lint tools, at least :)
15:38	bbloom	for sure
15:38	bbloom	...at least :)
16:07	augustl	how do I add a http://download.eclipse.org/jetty/stable-7/apidocs/org/eclipse/jetty/server/handler/ResourceHandler.html to my ring.adapter.jetty handler?
16:11	augustl	seems I can just .getHandler and go from there, in a :configurator
16:21	jeremyheiler	augustl: i've had to do that before; seems like the "best way" given how it's all set up.
16:28	fifosine1	Is it faster to consistently use tail on a sequence or to reverse it first and grab the head over and over?
16:29	gfredericks	fifosine1: the former
16:29	gfredericks	er
16:29	bbloom	no
16:29	gfredericks	unless you mean
16:29	bbloom	fifosine1: do you need to be able to push on to the front of the list?
16:29	fifosine1	no
16:29	bbloom	use a vector
16:29	bbloom	(doc peek)
16:29	clojurebot	"([coll]); For a list or queue, same as first, for a vector, same as, but much more efficient than, last. If the collection is empty, returns nil."
16:30	fifosine1	when do I want to use sequences vs. vectors? I've structured my code so that it's only using sequences. Should I probably be using vectors?
16:31	gfredericks	fifosine1: you're getting the last element repeatedly?
16:31	fifosine1	gfredericks: Yea, recurring on the last element of a list
16:31	gfredericks	fifosine1: why? what sort of collection is this?
16:31	fifosine1	a sequences
16:32	fifosine1	sequence
16:32	gfredericks	but why do you need the last thing? what else do you do with the sequence?
16:32	andyf	fifosine1: Many Clojure functions produce sequences as results, regardless of the kind of collection they are given, so trying to structure your code to use vectors "everywhere" is probably impossible, and using them everywhere that you return values from functions would require converting from sequences to vectors a lot.
16:33	andyf	I believe many people's Clojure code uses sequences where they do not present a performance problem, e.g. they only need to access it from first to last, and vectors if they have a special need for fast random access.
16:35	bbloom	fifosine1: use seqs whenever you're doing stuff to the left side of the collection, or when you're walking the entire collection linearly
16:35	bbloom	fifosine1: otherwise, use vectors
16:35	andyf	that is fairly generic advice, though. If you have performance problems in particular parts of your code, profiling can help find those places and other data structures might help speed up those parts.
16:35	bbloom	there are other cases, of course, but that's a good rule of thumb
16:45	gfredericks	~gfredericks: Yes. The file name
16:45	clojurebot	gfredericks: Yes. The file name is the interface to implement, and the content is a newline-separated list of the names of the concrete implementations
16:46	gfredericks	~sadness and spaghetti
16:46	clojurebot	<amalloy> weeping willows with cold pasta draped over their limbs, marinara sauce dripping forlornly to the ground, silent splats nobody can hear
16:47	gfredericks	clojurebot picks up the weirdest things by accident
16:47	gfredericks	~tutysara: sorry, not sure what
16:47	clojurebot	tutysara: sorry, not sure what is up, I'm getting the same thing. May take me some time to figure out and I can't do so now--I'll put something in github issues and update it ASAP.
16:47	hyPiRion	by accident?
16:48	hyPiRion	oh right, like the random "this is to me" messages it reads
16:48	gfredericks	exactly
16:48	gfredericks	lynaghk: map unification
16:48	gfredericks	~lynaghk: map unification
16:48	clojurebot	lynaghk: map unification is quite simple - it should be easy to see how it should be changed to do what you want for this new type.
16:49	gfredericks	~tbaldridge: this
16:49	clojurebot	tbaldridge: this is why I think tick maybe an OK compromise, allow work to be done in the natural order, pick a respectable granularity, yield for timeout
16:50	gfredericks	okay last one
16:50	sveri	Hi, using compojure is there a way to get the request variable and some destructured post variables like this: (POST "/uri" [param1 param2] req (index param1 param2 req))?
16:50	gfredericks	~arrdem: There
16:50	clojurebot	arrdem: There is a refheap API call to edit a paste. I'd happily take a pull request to add this functionality in refheap.el.
16:51	jeremyheiler	sveri: (POST "/uri" [param1 param2 & req] ...)
16:52	jeremyheiler	ooops
16:52	jeremyheiler	sveri: (POST "/uri" [p1 p2 :as req] ...)
16:52	jeremyheiler	sveri: https://github.com/weavejester/compojure/wiki/Destructuring-Syntax
16:52	tbaldridge	~gfredericks: what the?
16:52	clojurebot	No entiendo
16:53	tbaldridge	~gfredericks: this
16:53	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
16:55	sveri	jeremyheiler: thank you, didn't see that one
16:55	jeremyheiler	sveri: np!
16:55	gfredericks	tbaldridge: :P
16:57	gfredericks	~b: ,
16:57	clojurebot	b: , is white space
16:58	SagiCZ1	~SagiCZ1
16:58	clojurebot	Excuse me?
17:00	arrdem	what the heck..
17:03	lxsameer	hey guys, does any one uses emacs + cider ?
17:05	catern	nope
17:05	augustl	lxsameer: don't ask to ask, just ask :)
17:05	catern	everyone here uses Eclipse
17:05	lxsameer	augustl: ok then
17:05	arrdem	catern lies like a dog
17:05	catern	:D
17:06	arrdem	lxsameer: the last estimate I saw is that Emacs+{Cider,Slime} and Vim+Fireplace is ~75% of Clojure hackers
17:07	lxsameer	arrdem: really ? I'm new to clojure or any JVM lang, but as far as I see most of jvm related people use Eclipse
17:07	catern	lxsameer: I was joking
17:07	catern	I use Emacs+cider
17:07	augustl	lxsameer: in my experience most jvm peeps use intellij
17:07	arrdem	lxsameer: depends on how much Java interop you're having to do... if you're using Clojure to wrap a huge Java app of course you'll do better with a strong Java IDE
17:08	arrdem	lxsameer: if you're just handling a boatload of Clojure code, then the other tools do it better
17:08	catern	i personally hate Java and wouldn't be caught dead using an IDE
17:08	catern	(someone reaaaaaaaaally needs to write a guide to Java for Clojure programmers)
17:08	gfredericks	I thought of that back in the day and then I promptly didn't do it
17:10	technomancy	a time-honored tradition
17:12	lxsameer	catern: cool, I setup up cider with clojure mode but i get this error opening a clojure file http://dpaste.com/3G9CCGF do know about it ?
17:12	lxsameer	arrdem: thanks
17:12	catern	lxsameer: have you enabled the cider-nrepl lein plugin?
17:12	lxsameer	catern: yeah I added it to ~/.lein
17:13	catern	speaking of configuring leiningen... it really should obey the XDG-hierarchy and put its config under .config/leiningen/
17:14	lxsameer	catern: really ? but mine is in ~/.lein, and I'm installed lein using the conventional way
17:15	lxsameer	catern: how can I make sure that leiningen used my conf files ?
17:15	catern	oh no
17:15	catern	i was just saying
17:15	catern	in general
17:16	catern	totally not specific to you
17:21	arrdem	tbaldridge: has Bronsa done two or three years of GSoC now?
17:21	arrdem	I forget
17:22	tbaldridge	2 afaik
17:22	tbaldridge	last year was clojure-in-clojure which resulted in tools.analyzer
17:23	arrdem	kk
19:07	sdegutis	What's a good way to name a library?
19:20	catern	UUIDs
19:22	sdegutis	Well played sir-or-madam.
19:22	AeroNotix	sdegutis: I usually just use http://online-generator.com/name-generator/project-name-generator.php
19:22	sdegutis	Thanks.
19:23	sdegutis	I'll try doing the whole metaphor thing that the Ruby people do.
19:23	sdegutis	Aha! "Computer Program."
19:23	sdegutis	Oh wait.
19:23	AeroNotix	sdegutis: meta
19:23	AeroNotix	what does the program do?
19:23	sdegutis	AeroNotix: I'm sure that's taken.
19:23	sdegutis	AeroNotix: Oh it like, well...
19:23	sdegutis	I don't know.
19:23	sdegutis	It's cool though.
19:24	gfixler	sdegutis: I named a tool like that once. I called it "MultiTool"
19:24	AeroNotix	unknownjure
19:24	sdegutis	LOL got "Metaphor Essential" from http://online-generator.com/name-generator/project-name-generator.php
19:24	gfixler	sdegutis: then I was going to rename it later; I never did
19:24	sdegutis	gfixler: Perfect!
19:24	sdegutis	gfixler: Ah nope, trademarked: http://www.trademarkia.com/trademarks-search.aspx?tn=multitool
19:24	AeroNotix	sdegutis: I just got "disappointed toothbrush"
19:24	gfixler	sdegutis: MultipleTool!
19:25	gfixler	sdegutis: SoManyTool!
19:25	sdegutis	Ah nice call.
19:25	sdegutis	Yes that last one works great. Thanks!
19:25	sdegutis	I'll rename my app to that. Thanks!
19:25	gfixler	WowSuchUtil
19:25	sdegutis	Even better.
19:26	sdegutis	This is my app btw http://hackhydra.com/
19:26	sdegutis	Go buy some of it.
19:26	AeroNotix	I don't own an iProduct
19:26	gfixler	iDontEither
19:26	AeroNotix	Who would? Chumps
19:27	gfixler	I have gridding in Ubuntu
19:27	gfixler	c/o Compiz
19:27	gfixler	although I'm really looking into this xmonad thing now
19:27	AeroNotix	gfixler: I use xmonad -- wanted to use stumpwm
19:27	AeroNotix	but stumpwm shares groups across screens
19:27	AeroNotix	so individual screens don't have individual groups, kind of annoying
19:27	AeroNotix	apparently it can be hacked around
19:28	gfixler	AeroNotix: you use stumpwm with xmonad?
19:28	gfixler	or xmonad in place of stumpwm
19:28	AeroNotix	gfixler: no, stumpwm and xmonad are separate window managers
19:28	gfixler	right, that's why I was confused :)
19:28	gfixler	I parsed wrong
19:29	AeroNotix	xmonad is fine, really. I just really like Lisp and the idea of being able to hack on my WM from emacs and have it evaluated straight away
19:29	gfixler	I'm learning Haskell, slowly but surely, and I want power over my wm
19:29	AeroNotix	Haskell doesn't interest me
19:29	gfixler	whoa, that's what stumpwm does?
19:29	AeroNotix	Yeah, it's a CL process you can connect to
19:30	AeroNotix	so you just use SLIME like you would any other CL process
19:30	gfixler	suddenly stumpwm has become interesting
19:30	AeroNotix	it's great if you don't mind the way it handles groups
19:30	gfixler	by 'screens' do you mean monitors?
19:30	AeroNotix	highly recommend
19:30	AeroNotix	yeah
19:31	gfixler	btw, thanks for the answer like 10 hours ago re: (take)
19:31	AeroNotix	gfixler: no wakkas
19:31	gfixler	that was locking up on me, but it turns out I was passing it a vector of infinite expressions
19:31	gfixler	they needed to be separate things to map
19:31	AeroNotix	gotcha
19:31	gfixler	obvious, now that it's not 4AM
19:31	AeroNotix	:)
19:31	gfixler	man, now I don't know which wm I like more
19:32	catern	i've never tried stumpwm
19:32	AeroNotix	I'd definitely give stumpwm a go
19:32	gfixler	Haskell is super interesting to me, but CL is really awesome, too
19:32	catern	but AeroNotix has made me interested in CL
19:32	AeroNotix	catern: every lisper should try CL out :)
19:32	AeroNotix	it's the most "mature" of the lisps I've used
19:32	catern	i've never actually used CL, just scheme and clojure
19:32	gfixler	I made it halfway through PCL, and I like CL quite a bit
19:32	gfixler	although I prefer Lisp-1s now
19:32	AeroNotix	gfixler: PCL is a great book :)
19:32	catern	it appears enterprisey
19:33	AeroNotix	catern: enterprisey lisp, good one :)
19:33	gfixler	AeroNotix: I only stopped because it was turning into giant projects
19:33	AeroNotix	gfixler: lisp1 > lisp2
19:33	gfixler	I'd like to revisit them at some point
19:33	sdegutis	welp
19:33	catern	AeroNotix: inasmuch as that's possible
19:33	gfixler	we made sdegutis sad
19:34	AeroNotix	catern: it's definitely a large lisp
19:34	gfixler	AeroNotix: is it, or do you think it's possible to have a window over top of a window in stump or xmonad?
19:34	AeroNotix	and it suffers its "design by committee" roots
19:35	AeroNotix	gfixler: floating windows are possible in both
19:35	gfixler	catern: CL has crazy names for everything
19:35	arrdem	eh.. the Lisp2 argument that "well a bunch of the good names are needed for functions, and locals vs. globals isn't obvious" does make sense to some extent
19:36	AeroNotix	disagree wholeheartedly, but whatevs, it is what it is
19:36	catern	i actually prefer shared-workspaces-between-monitors to independent-set-of-workspaces-per-monitor
19:36	catern	so it sounds good
19:36	arrdem	you just need an editor that can interface with the analyzer and highlight locals and globals differently :P
19:36	scottj	gfixler: you can have windows over top of windows in several ways in stumpwm. one is a workspace that's all floating windows. another is multiple windows in the same tiling frame, where one window is limited size like maybe a dialog or a movie window with a different ratio. another way is if you have one window fullscreen, like a video, you can have windows in tiled frames appear over the top of it.
19:36	AeroNotix	catern: you caveman1
19:36	AeroNotix	!
19:36	catern	(er, assuming you can mix workspaces)
19:36	AeroNotix	catern: wdym mix workspaces?
19:37	catern	AeroNotix: nonsense! it's powerful to be able to move my emacs and terminal workspace to my large monitor or to my small monitor
19:37	catern	AeroNotix: like, i can independently choose workspaces for the two monitors. the workspace doesn't span across both monitors
19:37	AeroNotix	catern: exactly -- stumpwm doesn't do this
19:37	AeroNotix	and I want that behaviour
19:37	catern	what does it do?
19:38	catern	one big workspace covering both monitors?
19:38	AeroNotix	exactly
19:38	catern	aw, lame
19:38	AeroNotix	yeah, biggest killer for me
19:38	AeroNotix	I spent all weekend setting it up getting nerdily exicited (single monitor at home)
19:38	AeroNotix	got to my multi monitor setup at work and then had a sad
19:38	catern	hack it yo
19:39	AeroNotix	X code (even in lisp) makes me puke
19:39	gfixler	AeroNotix: yeah, that's lame
19:39	catern	huh, surely it's plenty abstracted already
19:39	AeroNotix	apparently if stumpwm isn't in xinerama mode then it works with separate groups
19:40	scottj	catern: not really (having viewed my fair share of stumpwm code)
19:40	catern	(if clojure wasn't hosted on the jvm we could have a clojure TWM)
19:40	gfixler	AeroNotix and scottj - I meant that I'd like to have 2 fullscreen windows with the front one a bit transparent
19:40	AeroNotix	catern: there's no reason why not -- I assume you mean the long startup time/
19:40	scottj	gfixler: I think you could do that fine
19:40	gfixler	e.g. I've had code fullscreened over Autodesk Maya, sending commands through from Vim, and watching things change in the 3D scene
19:41	gfixler	scottj: transparency levels is a thing?
19:41	catern	AeroNotix: it just feels wrong to have to boot up a memory-huge JVM just for my window manager
19:41	AeroNotix	catern: I agree
19:43	scottj	gfixler: handled by compositor like compton, not window manager.
19:43	catern	not for long!
19:43	catern	(wayland)
19:44	catern	(and that separation is dead in all the DEs anyway)
19:44	gfixler	scottj: understood - I am a newb in the field of window layout
19:45	gfixler	DE, WM, compositor... these are just words, really
19:46	gfixler	Compiz has logical monitors, which I've needed, as I use the Matrox GoofyName TripleHead2Go Digital Edition
19:46	gfixler	i.e. I have one DVI cable from the card to the Matrox box, and 3 from there to each of my 19" screens
19:46	gfixler	the computer sees one, 4' wide monitor
19:47	gfixler	so fullscreen and maximize do their thing across all displays
19:47	gfixler	I wrangle that with Compiz's "Outputs"
19:47	gfixler	i.e. with geo strings - 0x0+0+0
19:48	gfixler	but with something like xmonad, I think I could make all manner of splits and such
19:49	gfixler	I'm curious about nesting of logical things - like could I split the 1 group into 3 parts, and then sub-split those in a useful way
19:51	AeroNotix	gfixler: just try it out
19:51	AeroNotix	it's easier to see what's possible when you use it
19:52	gfixler	Ah, the old "Dive Into X" approach
19:59	catern	hmm
20:25	justin_smith	gfixler: I've run into issues with some wms and not others, in my experience xmonad and i3 are better behaved than most
20:26	justin_smith	gfixler: what made me stick with i3 is the fact that when a monitor disappears, it doesn't reshuffle windows that were on that monitor, the "frame" of things that was on that monitor is just detached (and then attachable to any other monitor but configured as it was before in terms of window placement within the monitor)
22:06	myguidingstar	Hi all, I'm doing TDD with cljx but cljsbuild tends to compile before cljx finishes
22:07	myguidingstar	as a result, the final javascript is a mix of old and new clojure(script) source
22:09	myguidingstar	I mean I run "cljbuild auto" and "cljx auto" at the same time
23:16	allenj12_	is anyone here familiar with overtone?