2014-07-10
| 00:01 | rbrito | Someone asked which programs in python are my most popular. I would say this one: |
| 00:01 | gfixler | rbrito: just for one more vote of confidence, I'm in chapter 7 of Learn You A Haskell, and it's all been very straightforward, fun, and a little bit eye-opening |
| 00:01 | rbrito | https://github.com/coursera-dl/coursera |
| 00:01 | rbrito | gfixler: I found Learn You a Haskell more engaging than Graham Hutton's book on Haskell. |
| 00:01 | gfixler | oh, have you already read it? |
| 00:02 | rbrito | But, then, I have only read the 1st chapter of LYAH and only the first 3 chapters of Hutton's book. |
| 00:02 | gfixler | good start |
| 00:02 | rbrito | gfixler: only a small bit. |
| 00:02 | systemfault | LYAH was a good book beside one or two things. |
| 00:02 | gfixler | The friend who got me into Haskell, right as I was starting to learn Clojure rewrote my Clojure 2048 'smoosh' function |
| 00:02 | gfixler | Mine was maybe 10 lines; his was something like 4, and all very clear in that point-free style |
| 00:03 | rbrito | :) |
| 00:03 | rbrito | systemfault: what should I be careful about LYAH? |
| 00:04 | systemfault | rbrito: Nothing, I liked 95% of it… Just hated its description of type kinds.. and when he just lists a lot of functions for no reasons at the end of some chapters (“here are some monad-related functions”) |
| 00:05 | systemfault | I’m learning… just don’t dump me a list of functions and a 1 line description of them |
| 00:06 | rbrito | I see. Makes sense. |
| 00:11 | rbrito | Oh, just a terminology thing: pattern matching in clojure is called "destructuring", right? |
| 00:11 | brehaut | rbrito: nope |
| 00:11 | brehaut | rbrito: pattern matching is a much more powerful feature |
| 00:11 | akhudek | https://github.com/clojure/core.match |
| 00:12 | rbrito | brehaut: I know pattern matching in scala only. |
| 00:12 | rbrito | akhudek: thanks for the link. |
| 00:12 | brehaut | pattern matching has conditional behaviour based on a variety of possible structures. pattern matching also does destrructuring. |
| 00:12 | brehaut | but destructuring just assumes the structure matches and pulls it apart |
| 00:13 | rbrito | OK, great. |
| 00:15 | rbrito | Do I need to import/require/use something to use match? |
| 00:17 | ttasterisco | yes, core.match is its own lib |
| 00:17 | ttasterisco | and all those 3 words mean different things.. |
| 00:18 | Shayanjm | actually speaking of - what're clojure best practices with regards to using import/require/use? |
| 00:18 | brehaut | rbrito: basically you always want require except for sometimes use in a repl |
| 00:18 | brehaut | import is only for java classes |
| 00:19 | rbrito | brehaut: thanks. That's to avoid namespace pollution, right? |
| 00:19 | brehaut | right |
| 00:19 | brehaut | and require has :refer to import specific names anyway so it does both |
| 00:21 | brehaut | ,(require '[clojure.set :refer [subset]]) |
| 00:21 | clojurebot | #<IllegalAccessError java.lang.IllegalAccessError: subset does not exist> |
| 00:22 | brehaut | fine |
| 00:22 | brehaut | apparently i cant remember the name of function in the set namespace |
| 00:23 | johnwalker | maybe subset? |
| 00:23 | johnwalker | ,(require '[clojure.set :refer [subset]]) |
| 00:23 | clojurebot | #<IllegalAccessError java.lang.IllegalAccessError: subset does not exist> |
| 00:24 | johnwalker | ,(require '[clojure.set :refer [subset?]]) |
| 00:24 | clojurebot | nil |
| 00:24 | brehaut | ,subset? |
| 00:24 | clojurebot | #<set$subset_QMARK_ clojure.set$subset_QMARK_@300ec4> |
| 00:24 | brehaut | johnwalker: thanks |
| 00:25 | sir_pinecone | I'm trying to use a var/fn from within a record that implements some Java interfaces, but when I compile to a jar and run the code, I get an unbound exception. here is a gist showing a snippet https://gist.github.com/sir-pinecone/9cde707504df436c45bd ... any ideas how to fix this? |
| 00:26 | sir_pinecone | (i'm a clojure noob :P) |
| 00:26 | johnwalker | you're welcome :) |
| 00:42 | rbrito | OK, people. Thank you a lot for the help with my newbie-style questions. I feel that I am better after this discussion and I hope to be coming back to this channel soon to tell you of my experiences with the course (and potentially more silly questions). :) |
| 00:43 | rbrito | Thanks for the warm reception, hints and tips. They were appreciated and now I have new books on my queue of functional programming to read. :) |
| 02:00 | devn | so, this is basically finished: https://github.com/spinningtopsofdoom/longshi |
| 02:00 | devn | commit coming within a couple of days which matches Fressian in features |
| 02:23 | sir_pinecone | sleep time..if anyone can help with https://gist.github.com/sir-pinecone/9cde707504df436c45bd it would be awesome if you left a comment on the gist page. thanks! |
| 04:42 | swi | Hello. Can i start nrepl serevr without using leiningen to use it with my cider ? |
| 04:46 | i-blis | swi: directly with cider-jack-in? |
| 04:48 | swi | i-blis: well, i was thinking to run nrepl server manualy and than connect to it with M-x cider specifying host:port |
| 04:49 | i-blis | swi: i see, then why would you avoid lein? |
| 04:50 | swi | i-blis: cause it start two copy of jvm and eat 17% of my 4G mem :) |
| 04:51 | Glenjamin | lein trampoline repl :headless |
| 04:52 | swi | Glenjamin: hm.. can i 'ask' cider-jack-in to run like this ? :) |
| 04:52 | Glenjamin | no idea, i don't use emacs |
| 04:52 | Glenjamin | i assume it lets you pick a port, or read .lein.port |
| 04:52 | i-blis | swi: oh, are you on os x? |
| 04:53 | i-blis | if so, you should probably export LEIN_JVM_OPTS="-XX:+TieredCompilation -XX:TieredStopAtLevel=1 -Djava.awt.headless=true" |
| 04:54 | swi | i-blis: i'm on debian |
| 04:55 | swi | Glenjamin: yep, this work :) Thanks |
| 05:01 | figoe | Hi, trying to compile clojure macros in clojurescript, but the clojure libraries were down loaded... hence i get the error, "aused by: java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate selmer/parse__init.class or selmer/parse.clj on classpath: " |
| 05:01 | figoe | I have already added selmer dependency, but the target directory is blank, except for stale/extract-native.dependencies |
| 05:02 | figoe | I meant the clojure (.clj) libs were not being downloaded... |
| 05:06 | figoe | okay, problem fixed, clj libs doesn't get downloaded for clj to cljs macros |
| 05:07 | figoe | referenced the wrong lib path |
| 05:56 | TerranceWarrior | i'd like to create a headless local server in clojure that talk to other servers using the browser as the interface. what is the smallest number of steps and how for a user to download and install this headless local server? |
| 06:07 | Planet_EN | What should I use to connect to SQL Lite? |
| 06:12 | ddellacosta | Planet_EN: https://github.com/clojure/java.jdbc |
| 06:12 | ddellacosta | Planet_EN: I recommend HoneySQL as a DSL on top of it if you need such a thing. I recommend staying away from Korma. |
| 06:46 | noidi | Planet_EN, many people seem to like https://github.com/krisajenkins/yesql |
| 07:17 | donbonifacio | hello |
| 07:19 | donbonifacio | we're having a "functional architecture" doubt. Imagina that we have 100 use cases and a function for each one. All function should receive a context (the current user for example). Is there a better way than to have the context on every function's arbument list? |
| 07:19 | nathan7 | donbonifacio: dynamic vars! |
| 07:20 | nathan7 | donbonifacio: (declare ^:dynamic *ctx*) |
| 07:20 | nathan7 | donbonifacio: (binding [*ctx* foo] (some-fn)) |
| 07:21 | donbonifacio | great nathan7 ! thanks, we'll look into it :) |
| 07:22 | nathan7 | donbonifacio: it means you don't need to pass it on all the time and such |
| 07:22 | nathan7 | donbonifacio: and the one use case for it is pretty much 'context' |
| 07:41 | hhenkel | Hi all |
| 07:41 | hhenkel | I'm trying to use the jolokia client java library described here: http://jolokia.org/reference/html/clients.html#client-java |
| 07:42 | hhenkel | I'm able to use J4pClient with new and bind that to "client" with new |
| 07:43 | hhenkel | But once I try to do the same with the J4pReadRequest (as described in the example code in the link) |
| 07:43 | hhenkel | I get the following error: IllegalArgumentException No matching ctor found for class org.jolokia.client.request.J4pReadRequest clojure.lang.Reflector.invokeConstructor (Reflector.java:183) |
| 07:44 | hhenkel | As far as I understand there is no constructer that matches my use case, right? |
| 07:44 | hhenkel | Error is produced when I try it like that: (J4pReadRequest. 'java.lang:type=Memory', 'HeapMemoryUsage') |
| 07:46 | hhenkel | From the source I see that there is a constructor like this: |
| 07:46 | hhenkel | public J4pReadRequest(String pObjectName,String ... pAttribute) throws MalformedObjectNameException { |
| 08:07 | hhenkel | Okay, I managed to get it working....for the record, this is needed: |
| 08:07 | hhenkel | (new J4pReadRequest "java.lang:type=Memory" (into-array String ["HeapMemoryUsage"])) |
| 08:38 | hhenkel | Any hint on how to use the J4pClientBuilder described at http://jolokia.org/reference/html/clients.html#client-java => 8.2.2. J4pClient with Clojure ? |
| 08:45 | hhenkel | Okay, looks like this helps: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8821751/how-do-i-create-a-java-like-object-in-clojure-that-uses-builder-pattern |
| 09:26 | TimMc | hhenkel: Yep, that's a good approach. |
| 09:32 | luxbock | I'm trying to debug a situation where my Clj/CLJS web-app works fine on my local machine, but when I run it on a EC2 instance the ajax-calls I'm doing on the front end fail with net::CONNECTION_REFUSED |
| 09:32 | luxbock | so the first thing I'm doing is trying to see is how the request looks like |
| 09:33 | teslanick | What happens if you curl the ajax call instead of running it from the browser? |
| 09:33 | luxbock | it works fine |
| 09:33 | luxbock | I can curl the ec2-instance from my local machine and that works fine too |
| 09:33 | luxbock | https://gist.github.com/luxbock/945c8f116c5e39d63967 |
| 09:33 | teslanick | Can you confirm that the URLs are identical? |
| 09:34 | luxbock | I believe so, I did check for that as well |
| 09:34 | teslanick | (especially that they're using the same protocol https/http) |
| 09:34 | hhenkel | TimMc: Thanks, that's good to know. |
| 09:35 | luxbock | yeah they are |
| 09:36 | teslanick | ajax usually passes a set of headers. Could one of those be messing up the request somehow? |
| 09:37 | luxbock | yeah that's what I'm trying to see with my `wrap-println` function but it's not working as I thought |
| 09:38 | luxbock | but I'm very new to doing anything web-related so it's possible I'm approaching this the wrong way |
| 09:38 | teslanick | It's way easier to debug that kind of thing in your browser developer tools. |
| 09:38 | luxbock | but I thought ring-middleware wrappers worked just like that |
| 09:38 | teslanick | They have a network tab that lets you inspect requests. |
| 09:39 | luxbock | true, I guess I should just test the ajax-request on its own |
| 09:39 | luxbock | right now it's wrapped in a Om component that just keeps repeating the call over and over |
| 09:40 | ifesdjeen | hey guys, does anyone know why CojureScript compiler may say that WARNING: No such namespace: goog.string at line 9 file ... |
| 09:40 | ifesdjeen | weird, since i've made basically no changes to my scripts, didn't recompile them for around a week, and now that stuff happens... |
| 09:41 | ifesdjeen | looks like i have some kind of dependency missing but i can't figure out which |
| 10:08 | hhenkel | TimMc: Any hint what to provide here when I want to provide multiple request objects (in a list): |
| 10:08 | hhenkel | public <R extends J4pResponse<T>,T extends J4pRequest> List<R> execute(List<T> pRequests,Map<J4pQueryParameter,String> pProcessingOptions) |
| 10:10 | TimMc | hhenkel: From Clojure's perspective, generics don't exist. |
| 10:10 | TimMc | public List execute(List pRequests, Map pProcessingOptions) |
| 10:12 | TimMc | &(instance? java.util.List [1 2 3]) ;; hhenkel: Vectors implement the List interface |
| 10:12 | lazybot | ⇒ true |
| 10:12 | hhenkel | TimMc: I tried this: https://www.refheap.com/88045 |
| 10:13 | hhenkel | But I get an error: J4pRemoteException Bad Request org.jolokia.client.J4pClient.extractJsonResponse (J4pClient.java:225) |
| 10:13 | hhenkel | If I try the request one by one, the request seems okay. |
| 10:13 | TimMc | Sounds like your syntax is fine, then. |
| 10:15 | hhenkel | Hmm... |
| 10:16 | hhenkel | I looked in the source and it seems like the http response code is not okay, therefore the exception is thrown. |
| 10:17 | hhenkel | Okay, in the server log I see: Malformed request "null". Request parsing failed, Code: -1 |
| 10:18 | sveri | Hi, is there a way to do a redirect with friend when I try to access a resource that I dont have the rights to access? Currently I only get a string stating: Sorry, you do not have access to this resource. A webpage that I can configure would be nice |
| 10:20 | TimMc | hhenkel: By the way, https://www.refheap.com/88046 might be a nicer syntax for constructor and method calls. |
| 10:21 | hhenkel | TimMc: Yes, absolutely. I traced what I type I get and it states it is a clojure.lang.PersistentVector |
| 10:22 | sveri | nevermind, I finally found it in one of the examples |
| 10:22 | hhenkel | Also checked that there are two request objects within.... |
| 10:24 | TimMc | hhenkel: Well, I don't know the API you're working with, so that part's up to you. :-P |
| 10:25 | hhenkel | TimMc: http://jolokia.org/reference/html/clients.html#client-java |
| 10:26 | hhenkel | TimMc: I haven't found a javadoc for it therefore I started digging around in the code. |
| 10:26 | hhenkel | I just tried my example with only one request in the vector and that also fails. |
| 10:27 | hhenkel | If I use my code with one request and without a vector around it, it works |
| 10:28 | hhenkel | TimMc: In the link I provided there is this part |
| 10:28 | hhenkel | The J4pClient provides various variants of a execute() method, which takes either one single request or a list of requests. For a single request, the preffered HTTP method (GET or POST) can be specified optionally. The List<R> argument can be used type only for a homogenous bulk request, i.e. for multiple requests of the same time. Otherwise an untyped list must be used. |
| 10:29 | hhenkel | I guess I'm doing something wrong here... :( |
| 10:32 | gfredericks | hhenkel: how does it fail? |
| 10:33 | hhenkel | gfredericks: On the server side: <Ma |
| 10:33 | hhenkel | lformed request "null". Request parsing failed, Code: -1> |
| 10:33 | hhenkel | and after executing my command on the client side I see: J4pRemoteException Bad Request org.jolokia.client.J4pClient.extractJsonResponse (J4pClient.java:225) |
| 10:34 | hhenkel | Looking in that code I see that the http response code is the reason for the exception. |
| 10:34 | hhenkel | But the question is, why is the request null... |
| 10:35 | hhenkel | The easiest implementation I found for the thing I want to do is this: |
| 10:36 | hhenkel | https://www.refheap.com/88049 |
| 10:37 | hhenkel | I decided to paste the complete class... |
| 10:37 | hhenkel | TimMc: ^^ |
| 10:38 | hhenkel | L170 - L183 should be the code that get executed I guess |
| 10:39 | mikerod | Why does tools.analyzer.jvm use tools.analyzer v0.2.2-SNAPSHOT when it is currently working at v0.3.1-SNAPSHOT? |
| 10:40 | mikerod | I'd think they'd be closer up-to-date with each other than that |
| 10:40 | hhenkel | gfredericks: Any idea what's wrong? |
| 10:43 | gfredericks | hhenkel: no, I can't look at it in detail right now, sorry |
| 10:44 | hhenkel | gfredericks: okay, thanks anyway. |
| 10:44 | hhenkel | Here is the complete code I currently use: https://www.refheap.com/88050 |
| 10:45 | hhenkel | Only requirement for testing it is a jvm with jolokia running (jetty, tomcat, weblogic, plain jvm) |
| 10:46 | hhenkel | User/PW is only required if enabled in the container. |
| 10:50 | mbriggs | hey guys, trying to use compojure with spyscope (latest of both), getting java.lang.IllegalAccessError: in-seconds does not exist, compiling:(ring/middleware/cookies.clj:1:1). if I remove spyscope from my profiles.clj, everything is cool. Bit of a clojure noob, not sure how to fix it |
| 10:50 | Bronsa | mikerod: I just forgot to bump the dep in project.clj, fixed now |
| 10:50 | Bronsa | mikerod: btw project.clj is only there for dev conveniency, it's not actually used for deployment. t.a.j 0.3.0 depends on t.a 0.3.0 |
| 10:58 | mikerod_ | Bronsa: Oh, thanks that's helpful to know |
| 10:58 | mikerod_ | (I was disconnected) |
| 10:58 | mikerod_ | I saw your 2 comments concerning the deps though. |
| 11:00 | hhenkel | How do I need to call a method that looks like this from clojure? public <R extends J4pResponse<T>,T extends J4pRequest> List<R> execute(List<T> pRequests) throws J4pException { |
| 11:00 | hhenkel | Full code is at: https://www.refheap.com/88049 line 180 |
| 11:01 | hhenkel | I just used wireshark and it looks like the post request is empty when I try something like https://www.refheap.com/88050 |
| 11:02 | mikerod_ | hhenkel: what do you mean how to call it? |
| 11:02 | mikerod_ | it looks like you are calling it |
| 11:02 | hhenkel | mikerod_: I meant "What it the correct way to use it?" as I keep failing with my request on the server. |
| 11:03 | hhenkel | Using a different implementation that executes a get request is fine, I get back data. |
| 11:04 | hhenkel | But as I want to fetch multiple values I currently fail. So I was wondering what might be wrong. |
| 11:04 | mikerod_ | I wouldn't think anything is wrong with the way you are calling it from a "how does clj call it standpoint" |
| 11:04 | mikerod_ | I can't really say if the arguments you are passing are correct or if the rest is set up right, since I don't know what any of this does/is supposed to do |
| 11:08 | hhenkel | mikerod_: I updated https://www.refheap.com/88050 with a working example. |
| 11:11 | MaxDH | Hi! I'm pretty new to Clojure and using Prismatic Schema and I'm having an issue with schema/explain, I am able to use schema/either where some of the options are hard coded such as: (s/either s/Int "" "NA") and I can validate inputs against this successfully. However if I try to call s/explain on this I get an illegal argument exception (no implementation of explain found for java.lang.String) as some of the options are hard coded. Does anyone know if there is |
| 11:22 | TimMc | MaxDH: "either" is weird, one of my coworkers just ran into something with it |
| 11:22 | TimMc | By the way, your message is cut off after "if there is". |
| 11:23 | MaxDH | TimMc: Thank you, and the cut off message: Does anyone know if there is a way to still use explain and get around this? |
| 11:23 | hhenkel | TimMc: One last question....found some code example (in a test): List resps = j4pClient.execute(Arrays.asList(req1,req2),params); |
| 11:24 | hhenkel | TimMc: Do you know what the equivalent for "Arrays.asList" is in clojure? |
| 11:24 | rurumate | seq? |
| 11:25 | TimMc | hhenkel: THat's just a Java-ism for making a List in-place. |
| 11:25 | rurumate | hhenkel: I advise you to experiment in the repl |
| 11:25 | hhenkel | rurumate: Thanks for the advice....I'm doing it: https://www.refheap.com/88050 |
| 11:25 | bbloom | arrdem: 20s slower? how long did it use to take? |
| 11:26 | hhenkel | TimMc: So, you're still convinced that using a vector in my case is the thing to do? |
| 11:26 | TimMc | Well, I see no reason not to. |
| 11:26 | arrdem | bbloom: the existing code successfully loads all of core in ~25s, the patch fails halfway though loading core in ~30+ s |
| 11:27 | bbloom | arrdem: crazy. something must be wrong... |
| 11:27 | hhenkel | TimMc: hmm, okay thanks. |
| 11:27 | hhenkel | rurumate: Any suggestions? |
| 11:28 | hhenkel | rurumate: Corresponding code used in the library: https://www.refheap.com/88049 |
| 11:28 | TimMc | MaxDH: Actually, the thing I'm thinking of may be unrelated. Are you using schema coercion? Apparently Either uses backtracking, so your coercer *may* be given already-coerced output (it needs to be idempotent.) |
| 11:28 | arrdem | bbloom: Bronsa was proposing that chunking could be enough of a win that the vector representation is able to do better but we were both pretty shot and didn't play with it. |
| 11:28 | bbloom | arrdem: can you look me to the "outer loop" of the code? |
| 11:29 | bbloom | arrdem: and are you using reducers? |
| 11:29 | bbloom | reducers would be much better than chunking for that outer loop |
| 11:29 | arrdem | working on the first, neg to the second |
| 11:30 | MaxDH | TimMc: I'm not (consciously) using any coercion |
| 11:32 | arrdem | bbloom: https://github.com/clojure/tools.emitter.jvm/blob/7b6896dfc42119aebbc34eb5c636c14492402865/src/main/clojure/clojure/tools/emitter/jvm/emit.clj |
| 11:33 | TimMc | MaxDH: Probably unrelated, then. |
| 11:33 | TimMc | (I have not used the library myself.) |
| 11:33 | arrdem | bbloom: the "outer loop" is mutual recursion between the -emit multimethod, the emit function and the emit-class function. we have to flatten all exit case in emit-class, so we do so, and emit flattens because we were encountering stack overflows in concat if we didn't. |
| 11:34 | bbloom | arrdem: *scratches head* i can't really study this at the moment, but i'm sure there's some way to speed it up dramatically :-) |
| 11:35 | arrdem | bbloom: heh you and me both. I'll check out reducers, been meaning to for a while anyway. |
| 11:35 | MaxDH | TimMc: Ok, thank you anyway for replying and giving it some thought. |
| 12:11 | gill_ | anyone have experience with digitalocean 1cpu/512mb and running a basic clojure web app? |
| 12:13 | arrdem | gill_: I ran the 1st iteration of my blog off of a laptop with equivalent specs for 18 months. it took 100K req/sec like a champ. |
| 12:14 | arrdem | ymmv |
| 12:16 | gfredericks | your mileage may be very good |
| 12:17 | zilti | Is there a neat way to test core.async stuff with midje? All I came up with so far is a blocking read from a channel, but that's kinda problematic, and embedding a fact inside a go-block breaks core.async |
| 12:17 | gfredericks | problematic? |
| 12:18 | zilti | gfredericks: Well, if the fact "fails" I have to kill midje and restart it |
| 12:18 | gfredericks | you do? |
| 12:19 | zilti | gfredericks: Plus it seems that sometimes it just blocks forever even if it shouldn't (or I haven't understood mult/tap) |
| 12:19 | gfredericks | you can use a timeout channel |
| 12:32 | gill_ | arrdem: thanks, good to know |
| 12:33 | gill_ | 5$/mo is hard to beat, I want to move off my dev box and use something public |
| 12:39 | gill_ | my concern is that java takes up like 400-600MB ram, at the least |
| 12:42 | technomancy | gill_: at heroku the default size is 512MB. it's common for JVM apps to have to bump up to a larger size, but simple clojure apps run fine. |
| 12:42 | Frozenlock | Wait, what did I miss? What is $5/mo? |
| 12:42 | technomancy | Frozenlock: Taco tuesdays! |
| 12:42 | mdeboard | bbatsov is everywhere i look lately |
| 12:42 | mdeboard | puppet-mode, clojure-mode |
| 12:43 | arrdem | Frozenlock: digitalocean's smallest VM. |
| 12:43 | Frozenlock | Tacos, perfect solution to... dev box transitioning. |
| 12:43 | mdeboard | i had fish tacos yesterday |
| 12:43 | technomancy | heh, he's ... extending the menu-bar entries? okay. |
| 12:44 | Frozenlock | Oh, interesting. 5$/mo is pretty sweet indeed. |
| 12:44 | gill_ | yea i think so |
| 12:44 | gill_ | okay great, I guess I'll spin one up and see how it goes |
| 12:45 | gill_ | `I wonder what they use on the back end for virtualization |
| 13:04 | robotblake | gill_: They use KVM, they don't let you boot your own kernels though, you have to use kexec trickery :( |
| 13:05 | arrdem | this also means you can't use arch because they have to maintain a fork of the arch kernel package T_T |
| 13:06 | gill_ | ah okay |
| 13:10 | zilti | Am I the only one who finds it a bit paradox that core.async's mult and pub mechanisms are synchronous? |
| 13:12 | mdeboard | probably |
| 13:13 | TimMc | &(map class (for [i (range 5)] (clojure.set/union #{1 2} (range i)))) ;; ystael |
| 13:13 | lazybot | ⇒ (clojure.lang.PersistentHashSet clojure.lang.PersistentHashSet clojure.lang.PersistentHashSet clojure.lang.Cons clojure.lang.Cons) |
| 13:14 | bbloom | zilti: making concurrency understandable with synchronous operations is kinda half the point |
| 13:16 | zilti | bbloom: Yes, but I assumed that mult and sub would work asynchronously, since, you know, it's core.*async*. Instead it synchronously waits until every subscribed channel has read the value before it writes to the next chan |
| 13:17 | bbloom | zilti: https://github.com/clojure/core.async/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/async.clj#L703-L705 |
| 13:18 | zilti | bbloom: Exactly. |
| 13:18 | bbloom | zilti: it's about back pressure |
| 13:18 | bbloom | without that property, you have unbounded buffering |
| 13:18 | teslanick | I believe the recommendation is that if you want non-blocking with pub/mult, you should use buffered channels. |
| 13:18 | bbloom | right, what teslanick said.... which is also true of all channel operations |
| 13:19 | arrdem | TimMc: the winner of the obfuscated clojure contest will write code using only the java standard library and Clojure interop. it'll be amazing. in place updates everywhere. |
| 13:20 | teslanick | core.async is basically a set of abstractions to make working with queuing (an asynchronous-by-definition problem) appear synchronous. |
| 13:25 | gfredericks | ,(clojure.java.api.Clojure/var "clojure.core/first") |
| 13:25 | clojurebot | #'clojure.core/first |
| 13:25 | gfredericks | ,(.invoke (clojure.java.api.Clojure/var "clojure.core/first") '(7 8 9)) |
| 13:25 | clojurebot | 7 |
| 13:27 | shanemhansen | Without backpressure you have re-invented node.js. poorly. |
| 13:29 | shanemhansen | There are good arguments that synchronous appearing code is the easiest to reason about. (CSP, etc) |
| 13:44 | seangrove | kwargs? |
| 13:45 | seangrove | clojurebot: kwargs |is| are a bad idea. |
| 13:45 | clojurebot | Ok. |
| 13:45 | seangrove | kwargs? |
| 13:45 | clojurebot | kwargs is are a bad idea. |
| 13:45 | seangrove | lgtm |
| 13:45 | TimMc | clojurebot, forget kwargs |is| are a bad idea. |
| 13:45 | clojurebot | I forgot that kwargs is are a bad idea. |
| 13:46 | arrdem | kwargs |are| a bad idea should work |
| 13:46 | TimMc | clojurebot, kwargs |are| a bad idea. |
| 13:46 | clojurebot | Ok. |
| 13:46 | TimMc | ~kwargs |
| 13:46 | clojurebot | kwargs are a bad idea. |
| 13:46 | TimMc | :-) |
| 13:46 | Glenjamin | is that the map-last-position type, or the splatted type, or both? |
| 13:46 | seangrove | (inc TimMc) |
| 13:46 | lazybot | ⇒ 63 |
| 13:46 | seangrove | Glenjamin: splatted type |
| 13:46 | TimMc | clojurebot, clojurebot |accepts| arbitrary verbs |
| 13:46 | clojurebot | c'est bon! |
| 13:47 | Glenjamin | i wonder who'd win if we took the bots from various language's channels into some sort of irc-bot-off |
| 13:48 | arrdem | Glenjamin: first you'd have to define a "bot contest".. |
| 13:48 | seangrove | ~(learn 'kwargs "kwargs are just a bad idea") |
| 13:48 | clojurebot | Gabh mo leithscéal? |
| 13:48 | arrdem | I don't think that a contest at maintaining karma is "winnable" :P |
| 13:50 | seangrove | proj |
| 13:57 | TEttinger | heh, my lazybot fork adds quote grabs from supybot (a commonly requested feature in non-language channels), all sorts of last seen or last message with text functionality, and a few other features I can't remember |
| 14:13 | aaelony | Been playing around with reading csv files with read-csv. For some reason, read-csv and reducers map don't play nice together unless there is a final call to into. Any reason why this is? https://www.refheap.com/88058 |
| 14:16 | bbloom | aaelony: reducers just build up a "recipe" for a reduction, they don't actually do anything until you kick-it-off with something like into |
| 14:16 | aaelony | bbloom: many thanks, that makes sense |
| 14:39 | shanemhansen | I've been having a *really* good time with clojure for the last few days. First serious use of lisp despite being an emacs user for 10 years. |
| 14:39 | shanemhansen | </gush> |
| 14:40 | puredanger_ | aaelony: I recently updated the http://clojure.org/reducers page - if that doesn't help you understand it, would be happy to learn of gaps |
| 14:41 | gfredericks | ,(defn unapply [f & args] (f args)) |
| 14:41 | clojurebot | #'sandbox/unapply |
| 14:41 | tjd | I've noticed that a lot of active members of the Clojure community are either consultants or freelancers. Why is that? Is is attraction to the diversity of projects? |
| 14:43 | amalloy | gfredericks: you forgot to do the variadic unrolling; how will this version ever make it into core? |
| 14:43 | amalloy | https://www.refheap.com/2b192ca3397c62b5e6aef56f1 |
| 14:44 | gfredericks | amalloy: thank goodness! |
| 14:44 | gfredericks | I exercised variadic-unrolling-vigilance on a jira ticket a month or two ago |
| 14:44 | gfredericks | for clojure.core/update |
| 14:45 | puredanger_ | and we thank you :) |
| 14:45 | gfredericks | always stay alert |
| 14:46 | gfredericks | that "factor out the unrolling" ticket is probably one of the more fascinating ones I've seen |
| 14:46 | arrdem | gfredericks: link? |
| 14:47 | gfredericks | man it's an oldy but a goody. |
| 14:47 | gfredericks | http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-731 |
| 14:48 | gfredericks | man now it's got me thinking about it again |
| 14:49 | amalloy | yeah, it's such a hard problem. i remember trying to figure out an approach and giving up |
| 14:50 | gfredericks | you'd want it to apply to single-level unrolling as well as double |
| 14:51 | amalloy | yeah, juxt and comp are brutal |
| 14:51 | gfredericks | it HAS to be general because what if somebody comes around and wants to do three levels but you just wrote the two of them THEN WHAT |
| 14:54 | hiredman | obviously it needs core.logic |
| 14:54 | amalloy | although really, gfredericks, i don't think you want to be general like that. you want to only handle one-level, but in a way that you can just call this unroller twice for juxt/comp |
| 14:59 | verma | how do I check if an object is a javascript null? (nil? x) doesn't seem to catch it |
| 14:59 | verma | just null? |
| 14:59 | gfredericks | amalloy: let's use core.async and have the unroller send messages with different arities |
| 14:59 | verma | null seems to work, but clojurescript while compiling is compalining about undefined "null" |
| 15:00 | verma | but yeah, its not really javascript null, because the (= v null) is failing |
| 15:01 | technomancy | verma: js/null maybe? |
| 15:02 | hiredman | verma: what makes you think nil? isn't working? |
| 15:02 | amalloy | yeah, i think that's exactly what nil? is supposed to do. maybe your object is actually js/undefined |
| 15:03 | amalloy | in which case nil? is correct in returning false |
| 15:03 | verma | technomancy, js/null isn't working |
| 15:03 | gfredericks | technomancy: what happened to that lofty idea for an entirely in-browser rewrite of leiningen? |
| 15:03 | verma | hiredman, I am making sure |
| 15:03 | amalloy | technomancy: it's okay, surely with *three* people who've never used cljs we'll figure this one out |
| 15:03 | technomancy | gfredericks: gonna give me nightmares |
| 15:03 | technomancy | amalloy: bahaha |
| 15:04 | amalloy | $google emperor's nose story |
| 15:04 | lazybot | [The Emperor of China's Nose - The Imaginatorium] http://imaginatorium.org/stuff/nose.htm |
| 15:04 | verma | hiredman, technomancy, my bad nil? seems to work, sorry |
| 15:06 | technomancy | one thing I don't understand about web people is how greasemonkey type stuff isn't standard issue in every browser everywhere |
| 15:07 | technomancy | do people just not want to fix problems in websites they visit? |
| 15:07 | technomancy | I guess there's some primitive user-level stylesheets you can apply |
| 15:07 | technomancy | but the lack of imagination is really boggling |
| 15:08 | gfredericks | http://www.marriedtothesea.com/070814/the-land-of-cascading-style-sheets.gif |
| 15:08 | shanemhansen | technomancy, I'm confused. firebug and chrome developer tools give you an in-browser repl. |
| 15:08 | bbloom | technomancy: i don't particularly want to have to maintain patches for rapidly changing minified code.... |
| 15:08 | shanemhansen | For scripts both browsers make it pretty easy to make user scripts. |
| 15:09 | technomancy | shanemhansen: I've never heard people actually talking about doing this |
| 15:09 | bbloom | technomancy: web technologies are just too bad to justify changing complicated crap |
| 15:09 | technomancy | I guess part of it is because FF profiles are so broken and automation-resistant |
| 15:10 | bbloom | it's like how everybody says "oh, it's open source! you can just add the features you want!" |
| 15:10 | bbloom | but then you need to figure out how to compile that shit, and manage the modified package, and nevermind the fact that the C code looks like it was written by an 8 year old |
| 15:10 | technomancy | and people look at me weird when I say I do everything in emacs |
| 15:11 | benkay | look weird back at them |
| 15:11 | technomancy | bbloom: the tools are all there though. it's just a tragic lack of imagination afaict. |
| 15:11 | technomancy | benkay: this is me, doing that. =) |
| 15:11 | benkay | i'm fixing a bunch of lighttable indentation right now |
| 15:12 | bbloom | technomancy: "tragic" maybe, but surprising? not at all |
| 15:12 | shanemhansen | I agree. The tools are all there. I've occasionally ran scripts that fired when I went to a specific web page. I edited some sort of random user.js or prefs.js in firefox do to that. |
| 15:12 | technomancy | like... the key bindings on twitter are terrible; I'm always fav'ing stuff by accident. in emacs, I'd view the twitter-mode-map, and rebind the F key. |
| 15:13 | gfredericks | technomancy: why don't you ever fav my stuff by accident |
| 15:13 | bbloom | technomancy: i was face palming so hard at the hacker news comments on the mathematica 10 announcement post.... people were like "it's open source, and therefore it is shit" and nobody realizes that they can have a fucking lisp-machine dream for a hundred bucks |
| 15:13 | technomancy | gfredericks: I started browsing twitter with js turned off |
| 15:13 | technomancy | gfredericks: also kept me from going beyond one page of history, which was actually a benefit |
| 15:13 | gfredericks | hah |
| 15:14 | bbloom | technomancy: there's this assumption that because massive creativity and the output of decades of effort exist, that everybody should just go around makign everything more awesome for themselves and everybody else all the time |
| 15:14 | bbloom | but in reality, it's just not that easy |
| 15:14 | jephree | :yogthos is there a way to redefine the second curly brace when using selmar e.x. <<var>> instead of {{? |
| 15:14 | technomancy | bbloom: there are smalltalk users who are stuck using web browsers today |
| 15:14 | jephree | yogthos: is there a way to redefine the second curly brace when using selmar e.x. <<var>> instead of {{? |
| 15:14 | bbloom | technomancy: yeah, you can't tell me that those people "lack imagination" |
| 15:14 | bbloom | technomancy: it's just that browsers *fucking suck* |
| 15:14 | technomancy | are they just too weighed down with the burden of shame in the entire industry to do anything sensible? |
| 15:14 | gfredericks | bbloom: bits don't rot so things can only get not-worse! |
| 15:14 | benkay | is there a clojure community standard about excessively long lines? |
| 15:15 | benkay | i'm trying to compress a lighttable collaborator's work into ~86 cols so that I can use magit without linebreaks |
| 15:15 | bbloom | technomancy: C sucks too, which is another part of the problem |
| 15:15 | technomancy | benkay: it's not a clojure thing, it's a "decent human being" thing |
| 15:16 | technomancy | benkay: or a "I actually use an editor/wm that lets me see more than one file at a time" thing rather |
| 15:16 | benkay | technomancy: see i like this guy and he's actually a bang-up programmer, but he does come from IDE and tab-land |
| 15:17 | technomancy | bbloom: so are there fragments of broken dreams littering the landscape? |
| 15:17 | technomancy | is greasemonkey one of them1? |
| 15:17 | gfredericks | clojurebot: greasemonkey is one of them1 |
| 15:17 | bbloom | technomancy: http://userscripts.org:8080/ returns "This website is under heavy load" |
| 15:17 | clojurebot | Ack. Ack. |
| 15:18 | bbloom | technomancy: the web has just diverted all the creative energy of an entire generation in to a different direction, it will swing around again eventually |
| 15:18 | technomancy | bbloom: if you want to fix twitter.com, the easiest way is to move to SF and get a job with twitter? |
| 15:18 | Frozenlock | bbloom: isn't the other direction the 'mobile' thingy? |
| 15:19 | bbloom | technomancy: argh. terrible, isn't it? |
| 15:19 | benkay | here's to the mobile thingy! |
| 15:19 | bbloom | technomancy: there was a common internal-mailing-list thing at microsoft that made me aaaaaanngggrrrry. |
| 15:19 | bbloom | technomancy: if somebody gave feedback that a particular team had heard one too many times, or if you just didn't say your feedback quite right... |
| 15:19 | bbloom | technomancy: you'd get somebody replying with a URL: http://careers |
| 15:20 | bbloom | which was the intranet page for internal team transfers, essentially |
| 15:20 | technomancy | hehe |
| 15:20 | bbloom | benkay: at least mobile is reminding people what software CAN BE LIKE |
| 15:20 | technomancy | though on the bright side, html/js UIs means more API-driven applications, which means it's easier to just throw up an elisp version |
| 15:20 | bbloom | (ie attractive and smooth) |
| 15:21 | Frozenlock | bbloom: walled garden? |
| 15:21 | technomancy | bbloom: for a long time I used mobile.twitter.com on my laptop. way faster, no hashbangs. |
| 15:21 | bbloom | technomancy: two steps forward, one step back.... grumble grumble http/rest/json/apis |
| 15:21 | bbloom | Frozenlock: doesn't bother me at all that your ios app doesn't work on android, or vice versa. matching the platform look and feel is worth it to me... as a user |
| 15:22 | Frozenlock | I can understand that. But I don't like the look and feel of those platform :-p |
| 15:23 | bbloom | if apple went out of business tomorrow, and suddenly all ios apps magically stopped working... half the world would take a collective vacation, while the other half the world ported all their apps to android fast enough that by christmas nobody would remember the event ever happened :-P |
| 15:23 | technomancy | I think of software these days as being like what it would have been like for literacy if handwriting never existed. |
| 15:24 | technomancy | literacy means everyone can read, but writing is something you need a printing press for |
| 15:24 | Frozenlock | Everyone can use software, but only a few can actually code? |
| 15:25 | Frozenlock | (just to be sure I understand right) |
| 15:25 | technomancy | Frozenlock: because you can't just grab a piece of paper and scribble on it |
| 15:25 | ivan | https://greasyfork.org/ is the new userscripts |
| 15:25 | bbloom | technomancy: i'm not so sure that universal ability to write has produced significantly more/better literature :-P |
| 15:25 | technomancy | bbloom: it's not about literature, it's about empowerment |
| 15:25 | bbloom | but i get your point |
| 15:25 | bbloom | yeah |
| 15:26 | technomancy | bbloom: did you see this? http://www.papert.org/articles/ACritiqueofTechnocentrism.html |
| 15:26 | bbloom | technomancy: no |
| 15:27 | technomancy | I think professional programmers bring their own biases to the question of code literacy because we're constantly thinking about long-term maintainability, while most people are happy to write throw-away code and are interested in the specific artifacts of its output |
| 15:27 | technomancy | ivan: thanks, I'll take a loot |
| 15:28 | technomancy | look |
| 15:28 | bbloom | technomancy: that's certainly true, and one of the reasons i'm interested in language/library designs that encourage experimentation, but scale smoothly, even given naive usage |
| 15:28 | ivan | and a word of caution: the thing everyone uses for scripts in Chrome, tampermonkey, is not FOSS |
| 15:29 | technomancy | ivan: ah, shitty |
| 15:29 | technomancy | is it fairly divergent from greasemonkey? |
| 15:29 | technomancy | I've ditched chrome anyway |
| 15:29 | ivan | it used to be; the author changed it, he might go back |
| 15:29 | ivan | (FOSS) |
| 15:29 | ivan | I don't know about divergence |
| 15:29 | ivan | it should be very close |
| 15:29 | technomancy | cool |
| 15:30 | technomancy | now if only I could figure out how to put firefox dotfiles into version control =( |
| 15:30 | ivan | "write Firefox profile generator" has been on my todo list for about two years |
| 15:30 | technomancy | it's sooooo bad |
| 15:31 | technomancy | the other day I moved my FF profile out of the way to experiment with it |
| 15:31 | technomancy | when I moved it back and relaunched FF, it deleted all my history |
| 15:31 | ivan | technomancy: was the old Firefox still running when you moved it? |
| 15:33 | ivan | I don't think that should happen normally but I have not tested |
| 16:08 | TimMc | technomancy: The new versioning scheme makes it even worse -- you can't easily tell when a Firefox (or THunderbird) upgrade will break your profile for downgrades. |
| 16:10 | hhenkel | Hi all, I allready wrote this afternoon and I'm still struggling with some issue. |
| 16:10 | technomancy | TimMc: it's not bad on debian. =) upgrade -> it's fine, dist-upgrade -> gonna break. |
| 16:10 | technomancy | ivan: I don't think so, but maybe by accident. |
| 16:10 | hhenkel | I made an easy to follow setup to check my issue out: https://www.refheap.com/88062 |
| 16:11 | hhenkel | I would really appreciate if someone could have a look and tell me what is wrong. |
| 16:14 | hhenkel | I allready traced with wireshark and all I see is that there is no post request data as far as I can see. |
| 16:15 | vijaykiran | hhenkel: I get Unmatched delimiter: ), compiling:(/private/tmp/jolokia-test/jol-test/project.clj:8:23) |
| 16:16 | vijaykiran | hhenkel: let me try with copy pasting just the code |
| 16:18 | hhenkel | vijaykiran: any luck with c&p ? |
| 16:18 | vijaykiran | hhenkel: yeah - I'm able to reproduce the same error .. so that's the first step |
| 16:20 | hhenkel | vijaykiran: http://www.jolokia.org/reference/html/clients.html#client-java => search for "The J4pClient provides various variants of a" |
| 16:20 | hhenkel | For my understanding of the docs, the javadocs and the source I should be able to use a list. |
| 16:21 | hhenkel | But maybe I get something completly wrong... |
| 16:21 | glitch83 | anybody know if I future something and then drop scope (destroying the variable) whether or not the future will complete?? |
| 16:21 | lazybot | glitch83: What are you, crazy? Of course not! |
| 16:22 | glitch83 | lazybot: are you real? |
| 16:23 | llasram | lazybot: Is glitch83 for real??? |
| 16:23 | lazybot | llasram: How could that be wrong? |
| 16:24 | llasram | glitch83: I don't futures are not canceled if they go out-of-scope |
| 16:24 | glitch831 | llasram: alright ;-) I don't trust bots is all |
| 16:29 | hhenkel | vijaykiran: Any idea what I do wrong? |
| 16:29 | boxed | is there any lib to make multiple changes to a bit map easier? I find ->, assoc, dissoc, update-in, etc to become rather clunky when the complexity grows a bit |
| 16:30 | boxed | big map, not bit map -_-; |
| 16:34 | dbasch | boxed: how is a big map different from a small map in that sense? |
| 16:35 | boxed | it’s not just {:foo 1 :bar 2 :baz 3} but has nested maps, vectors etc |
| 16:37 | boxed | so concrete example: http://cljsfiddle.net/fiddle/boxed.foo |
| 16:38 | dbasch | boxed: I would use the above functions as primitives to build functions to alter that specific map schema |
| 16:38 | dbasch | boxed: or create a protocol if you want to be more OO |
| 16:42 | boxed | that’s what I’m doing, but it seems like I’m writing a lot of the same hard to read and verbose code over and over |
| 16:43 | boxed | if you reload the fiddle I’ve added an example of the code I have to do the transformation now, and below what I’d like to have in some kind of pseudo code |
| 16:45 | aaelony | 13:42 *** glitch83 QUIT Read error: Connection reset by peer |
| 16:45 | amalloy | i can understand the code you wrote, but your pseudo-code is a complete mystery to me. even looking at the real code, i can't figure out a scheme that makes the pseudo-code correspond to reality |
| 16:46 | boxed | yea, it’s a bit vague in my mind still heh… basically I want to give some path into the map, that’s the vector arguments in my pseudo-code, and then some transformation on that, which is the rest |
| 16:48 | boxed | update-in is nice and all, but the paths it supports are pretty limited |
| 16:48 | amalloy | that's literally update-in. the problem is your "*" variable, which basically corresponds to "magic", and the loose way you hope to deal with arguments. i'd favor the explicit update-in heavily over having to learn a dsl to work with maps |
| 16:48 | boxed | I’d like to have wildcards in the path for example |
| 16:48 | Raynes | boxed: I think we know each other. |
| 16:49 | boxed | raynes: the irclj guy? |
| 16:49 | Raynes | Oh right |
| 16:49 | Raynes | You've been complaining about documentation. |
| 16:50 | boxed | raynes: well, complaining makes it sound so dirty :P I’ve also written a chat bot and put that code on github so there’s an example for people to look at. I think that’s pretty close to helping more than complaining :P |
| 16:51 | Raynes | But it's easier if I just think of you as an angry consumer. |
| 16:51 | boxed | amalloy: do you get my drift about the wildcard path handling? like “for all paths into this map that matches ‘foo/*/bar’ do baz” |
| 16:51 | boxed | raynes: heh, well since I didn’t pay I’m certainly not a customer |
| 16:51 | amalloy | yes, but i think that what you want it to do in that case is basically magic |
| 16:52 | Raynes | That doesn't seem particularly magical. |
| 16:53 | boxed | amalloy: eh? why? just “if the object denoted at * is a non-sequence, throw an exception, otherwise apply the transformation on each item of that sequence” |
| 16:53 | Raynes | Anyways, I'd just update-in an update-in at the level where you want to update-in *. |
| 16:53 | Raynes | :D |
| 16:53 | boxed | that’s what I have now, but it’s fugly as hell |
| 16:53 | stuartsierra | Didn't somebody write an Enlive-like thing that works on arbitrary data structures? |
| 16:53 | Raynes | I agree that the wildcard feature would be cool, but I'd definitely rather that not be a supported feature of Clojure's update-in. |
| 16:54 | Raynes | It'd make it significantly more confusing. |
| 16:54 | Raynes | Also, you should try doing any sort of *-in thing in Python. |
| 16:54 | Raynes | You'll be humbled. |
| 16:54 | boxed | sure… I’m asking for something else clearly :P |
| 16:54 | Raynes | :< |
| 16:56 | boxed | stu: can you remember the name? |
| 16:57 | Raynes | boxed: If you press 'tab' after typing the first few letters of a nickname, chances are your client will expand it to the full name of that person. |
| 16:57 | Raynes | The usefulness of this is that when you say a person's entire nick, it often pings them so they notice you're responding to them. |
| 16:58 | bbloom | boxed: "lenses" may be related to what you're thinking of |
| 16:58 | stuartsierra | boxed: no |
| 17:00 | boxed | cool, I’ll look into lenses… bbl for more help I’m sure :P thanks guys |
| 17:04 | TimMc | technomancy: Unfortunately, that's not true for add-ons. Upgrading icedove breaks compat with Lightning (calendaring add-on) and downgrading doesn't work. I had to restore from a week-old backup. |
| 17:05 | hhenkel | vijaykiran: Did you find anything? |
| 17:06 | hhenkel | anyone else willing to give it a shot? https://www.refheap.com/88062 |
| 17:17 | verma | anyone here use vim-clojure-static, I'd like to see how people configure it |
| 17:20 | Frozenlock | Raynes: I've been amazed recently by how insanely superior tokumx is to mongoDB. (And it's a drop-in replacement). You might want to take look if you haven't already. |
| 17:21 | Raynes | I don't use mongodb because I want to as much as because I used it a long time ago and now it's too hard to change to postgres. |
| 17:22 | vijaykiran | hhenkel: did you try the plain Java API ? |
| 17:23 | Frozenlock | Raynes: Sure, but for your legacy project it 'might' be worth it. |
| 17:23 | Raynes | I don't actually have problems with mongodb for my legacy project though. |
| 17:24 | amalloy | yeah, i don't know why Raynes would want to switch |
| 17:24 | Frozenlock | disk space would be one reason. |
| 17:25 | Raynes | I have enough disk space for about... 15 or so years of growth at the rate refheap gets pastes. |
| 17:25 | Frozenlock | But if everything's fine, let it be. No reason to lose time on this. |
| 17:25 | Frozenlock | Nice! |
| 17:25 | amalloy | Raynes: i think you can go infinite. linode gives you free disk faster than refheap uses it up |
| 17:25 | vijaykiran | hhenkel: I get the same error using the JavaAPI directly |
| 17:25 | Raynes | Indeed. |
| 17:25 | technomancy | refheap's gonna hockeystick though |
| 17:26 | amalloy | some people would like to hockeystick mongodb |
| 17:26 | Raynes | I could clear up a ton of disk space instantly by deleting all the 40k or so bot-created forks when I was dumb enough to use a GET request for forking. |
| 17:26 | technomancy | right after it pivots to a mobile latté-tracking app for moms |
| 17:26 | Frozenlock | My mongoDB started acting up after ~20gb :-( |
| 17:29 | dbasch | Fisher Price should market MongoDB as "My First Database" |
| 17:31 | Raynes | MongoDB was indeed my first database. |
| 17:31 | Raynes | Hence refheap. |
| 17:31 | Raynes | Absolutely 100% want to move to postgres, just that I don't feel like it and nobody else wants to do it either :P |
| 17:33 | amalloy | the thing about postgres is some of the letters are too close together. i typo it as postgers |
| 17:33 | amalloy | it's worth it to use mongodb if i don't have to deal with that |
| 17:33 | vijaykiran | hhenkel: when sending multiple requests - I get a 302 back. I'm not familiar with this api - so I guess you should first try the JavaAPI directly to get the behaviout you want |
| 17:33 | technomancy | the other annoying thing is that sometimes it's pg, sometimes it's postgres, and sometimes it's postgresql |
| 17:33 | amalloy | technomancy: don't forget psql |
| 17:33 | technomancy | it's like ... make up your mind |
| 17:34 | technomancy | amalloy: exactly! |
| 17:34 | amalloy | i vote we standardize on postgers |
| 17:34 | gabnex | what lisp is most functional (as in leaning toward the functional programming side, not bein the least dysfunctional :) ) |
| 17:34 | gabnex | is it clojure? sheme? |
| 17:34 | gabnex | +c |
| 17:35 | technomancy | gabnex: iirc r5rs scheme doesn't have any data structure mutation functions in the spec |
| 17:35 | amalloy | liskell, naturally |
| 17:36 | arrdem | technomancy: whaaaa no way. |
| 17:36 | technomancy | "most functional" is not a very useful notion since you can just take away non-functional features till there are none left and technically still have a language |
| 17:36 | amalloy | technomancy: most functional lisp is lambda calculus |
| 17:36 | technomancy | arrdem: setcar! and setcdr! are from an sfri iirc |
| 17:37 | technomancy | you can still mutate bindings though I think |
| 17:37 | dnolen_ | technomancy: the mutation ops are in the spec far as I can tell - http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/r5rs.pdf |
| 17:38 | dnolen_ | gabnex: Clojure is likely the most functional lisp available today |
| 17:38 | technomancy | dnolen_: oh dang, true. they just don't have ! |
| 17:38 | catern | what about shen |
| 17:38 | catern | what now!!! |
| 17:39 | arrdem | technomancy: nope. set-car/set-cdr are r5rs standard |
| 17:39 | arrdem | page 26 |
| 17:39 | technomancy | I am disappoint |
| 17:39 | arrdem | I'm not... the traditional lisps are all about car/cdr manipulation |
| 17:40 | technomancy | maybe it's mutable strings I'm thinking of |
| 17:40 | technomancy | arrdem: you dare sully scheme by associating it with MACLISP derivatives? |
| 17:40 | arrdem | technomancy: yep strings don't have update in place it seems |
| 17:42 | dnolen_ | catern: shen is less batteries includes for functional programming as far as data structures |
| 17:42 | dnolen_ | s/includes/included |
| 17:42 | catern | dnolen_: the less it can interact with the external world, the more functional it is |
| 17:42 | catern | so i rest my case |
| 17:42 | arrdem | wat |
| 17:45 | arrdem | dnolen_: have you wroked with shen? I looked at it just before I got into Clojure and went with Clojure because of the library support/community |
| 17:46 | mikerod | What's the magic behind this: (defrecord MyTest [x] java.lang.Object (bogus/toString [_] (str x))) |
| 17:46 | mikerod | (.toString (->MyTest 2)) := "2" |
| 17:46 | mikerod | It looks like somewhere along the way |
| 17:46 | mikerod | The method name doesn't care about things before "/" |
| 17:46 | Bronsa | mikerod: deftype* just ignores the namespace of method names |
| 17:46 | Bronsa | mikerod: it's in the compiler |
| 17:46 | mikerod | Bronsa: I haven't found where this happens |
| 17:46 | mikerod | I was digging around the compiler |
| 17:46 | amalloy | mikerod: the compiler just calls name |
| 17:46 | arrdem | mikerod: Symbol/name gets used |
| 17:47 | amalloy | or probably not the compiler, but the code in core_deftype |
| 17:47 | mikerod | amalloy: ah |
| 17:47 | mikerod | I was trying to find a line that did that |
| 17:47 | mikerod | and failed |
| 17:47 | mikerod | I figured it was a Symbol.name thing |
| 17:47 | Bronsa | amalloy: pretty sure it's in the compiler |
| 17:47 | mikerod | Is this just by mistake? |
| 17:47 | mikerod | or is there a good reason for it |
| 17:47 | amalloy | mikerod: no, it's an important feature! |
| 17:47 | Bronsa | mikerod: well, method names can't be namespaced |
| 17:48 | mikerod | I noticed we had a bogus macro doing something like `(toString [~'this] <etc>)` |
| 17:48 | amalloy | otherwise, macros expanding to defrecord would be hellish to write: `(defrecord Foo [~@xs] Object (toString [this#] "x")) |
| 17:48 | mikerod | amalloy: exactly, we have that |
| 17:48 | mikerod | but I feel like that is just wrong |
| 17:48 | Bronsa | you'd have to write ~'toString |
| 17:48 | amalloy | right. and it should be allowed. the alternative is too horrible to contemplate |
| 17:48 | mikerod | To me it is weird that code that you generate is bogus, but it works :P |
| 17:48 | amalloy | who says it's bogus? so far just you |
| 17:48 | mikerod | bogus/toString |
| 17:49 | mikerod | just gets coerced to toString |
| 17:49 | Bronsa | mikerod: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Compiler.java#L7889 |
| 17:49 | amalloy | so? |
| 17:49 | clojurebot | so is (add-to-list 'erc-keywords '("\\bso\\b" erc-default-face)) |
| 17:49 | mikerod | but macroexpand shows you the bad code, so it is just misleading |
| 17:49 | arrdem | lol clojurebot |
| 17:49 | mikerod | amalloy: it has helped us by accident as well. I just think it is a very weird "feature" :D |
| 17:49 | Bronsa | ,(foo/.toString []) ;; mikerod |
| 17:49 | clojurebot | "[]" |
| 17:49 | mikerod | oh... |
| 17:49 | mikerod | I didn't know it went that far |
| 17:49 | amalloy | mikerod: a lot of clojure code ignores namespaces in contexts where it can't possibly make sense |
| 17:50 | mikerod | I suppose that is fair |
| 17:50 | amalloy | and you generate "bogus" code all the time, as Bronsa has just demonstrated |
| 17:50 | mikerod | Oh, I didn't see this "dotname.name" piece |
| 17:50 | mikerod | thanks for that Bronsa |
| 17:51 | amalloy | mikerod: i wonder: when you write a macro that expands to a use of & destructuring, do you write ~'&? |
| 17:51 | mikerod | Ok, so lesson learned. It is acceptable to do `(toString [~'this] <blah>) sort of things |
| 17:51 | amalloy | i did that for a while, and then discovered you don't have to |
| 17:51 | amalloy | ,`(foo & bar) |
| 17:51 | clojurebot | (sandbox/foo & sandbox/bar) |
| 17:51 | Bronsa | amalloy: heh, nobody actually thinks about why that works |
| 17:52 | amalloy | Bronsa: it's actually *not* because the compiler calls name on &, thus ignoring the namespace |
| 17:52 | Bronsa | I didn't either until I tried to understand why & in the special symbol table |
| 17:52 | Bronsa | is in |
| 17:52 | mikerod | amalloy: that is different if syntax-quote leaves it alone |
| 17:52 | amalloy | oh, is it? that makes sense |
| 17:53 | amalloy | mikerod: sure, but did you know before just now that syntax-quote leaves it alone? |
| 17:53 | Bronsa | amalloy: yep ##(special-symbol? '&) |
| 17:53 | lazybot | ⇒ true |
| 17:53 | mikerod | amalloy: debatable :) |
| 17:53 | mikerod | I never thought to ~'& |
| 17:53 | amalloy | `(foo bar/& baz) |
| 17:53 | mikerod | but I never tried to look at it either |
| 17:53 | amalloy | ,`(foo bar/& baz) |
| 17:53 | clojurebot | (sandbox/foo bar/& sandbox/baz) |
| 17:54 | mikerod | So, I guess the main take away is the "ignore Symbol.ns when it doesn't make sense" is a feature I can rely on |
| 17:54 | mikerod | for macros like `defrecord` or similar |
| 17:55 | mikerod | I was about to run around fixing macros expanding to this stuff |
| 17:55 | amalloy | mikerod: except in binding contexts like let and fn, where symbols' namespaces are illegal on purpose to prevent you making any mistakes |
| 17:55 | mikerod | amalloy: yeah, those make sense |
| 17:56 | mikerod | `(defrecord myr [x] Object (toString [_] "hello")) |
| 17:56 | mikerod | ,`(defrecord myr [x] Object (toString [_] "hello")) |
| 17:56 | clojurebot | (clojure.core/defrecord sandbox/myr [sandbox/x] java.lang.Object (sandbox/toString [sandbox/_] "hello")) |
| 17:56 | mikerod | ,`(defrecord myr [~'x] Object (toString [~'_] "hello")) |
| 17:56 | clojurebot | (clojure.core/defrecord sandbox/myr [x] java.lang.Object (sandbox/toString [_] "hello")) |
| 17:57 | amalloy | (inc Bronsa) |
| 17:57 | lazybot | ⇒ 29 |
| 17:57 | mikerod | So you still need to ~' the params right? |
| 17:58 | amalloy | well, often you probably want to gensym them instead |
| 17:58 | amalloy | i had just assumed there was a special case in ` for & somewhere; it never occurred to me it's counted as a special symbol |
| 18:00 | mikerod | I see |
| 18:01 | mikerod | well thanks for the advice on this stuff |
| 18:01 | mikerod | (inc Bronsa) |
| 18:01 | lazybot | ⇒ 30 |
| 18:01 | mikerod | (inc amalloy) |
| 18:01 | lazybot | ⇒ 147 |
| 18:02 | erdos | hello everybody. in data.clj:75 says (extend nil Diff ...) what does (extend nil.. ) form mean? |
| 18:03 | Bronsa | erdos: that's how you implement a protocol for nil |
| 18:04 | stuartsierra | erdos: It means the methods of the `Diff` protocol will use the implementations in the `extend` when called with `nil` as their first argument. |
| 18:04 | erdos | wow great thanks |
| 18:13 | dnolen_ | arrdem: only toyed around with it, it's conceptually pretty cool, but Clojure seems more useful to me. |
| 18:20 | cespare | Is it possible to get at a tag using a macro when the type hint is, say, in a function param or a let? (In the same way the compiler can.) http://pastie.org/9375498 |
| 18:24 | Bronsa | , (defmacro x [x] (-> &env (find x) first meta :tag)) |
| 18:24 | clojurebot | #'sandbox/x |
| 18:24 | Bronsa | ,(let [^String a ""] (x a)) |
| 18:24 | clojurebot | java.lang.String |
| 18:24 | Bronsa | cespare: ^ |
| 18:25 | cespare | &env? what is this magic |
| 18:25 | lazybot | java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: env? in this context |
| 18:25 | cespare | heh |
| 18:25 | cespare | Bronsa: cool, i'll look into that. Thanks |
| 18:26 | amalloy | didn't Bronsa suggest &env to you yesterday too? |
| 18:27 | cespare | not that i recall |
| 18:27 | cespare | maybe after i left. |
| 18:28 | cespare | amalloy: you pointed out that i was hinting the wrong thing, and I thought that solved my problem and moved on to something else. |
| 18:29 | Bronsa | I rememebr talking about it with gfredericks a couple of days ago, I don't recall cespare asking for it |
| 18:29 | cespare | ah yeah, there was a discussion about env but i had stopped listening |
| 18:29 | cespare | nobody used my name so i never noticed. |
| 18:31 | cespare | Bronsa: should I avoid using this for some reason? |
| 18:31 | cespare | (perusing logs from yesterday) |
| 18:31 | Bronsa | cespare: well &env is not really a documented feature AFAIK |
| 18:32 | arrdem | Bronsa: I haven't heard of it previously :P |
| 18:32 | Bronsa | well along with &form it's an implicit arg passed to macros |
| 18:32 | cespare | Bronsa: yeah, exactly what I needed. |
| 18:33 | Bronsa | which actually means that while functions can take up to 20 args, macros can take only up to 18 args |
| 18:33 | amalloy | i also can't think of any very good reasons you would want to know at compile time what type a symbol is tagged as. it seems dubious |
| 18:33 | Bronsa | amalloy: dude I'm pretty sure you told me a while ago that you have a macro in useful that uses &env for that reason |
| 18:34 | amalloy | haha that's true, isn't it. i didn't write that, though, ninjudd did |
| 18:34 | cespare | amalloy: writing macros for record access that throw at compile-time if the thing you pass in is not actually a record or doesn't have that key. |
| 18:34 | Bronsa | and not even the keys part of &env, it's using the vals |
| 18:36 | amalloy | Bronsa: well, if you use the vals you get the benefit of the compiler's type inference |
| 18:36 | amalloy | (let [^MyObj x (foo), y x] (typeof y)) ; it's nice to get back MyObj |
| 18:37 | Bronsa | right but then you're starting to abuse internal details which always make me sad |
| 18:37 | amalloy | sure. i wouldn't have written that code, myself, but it's useful |
| 18:39 | amalloy | flatland.useful.datatypes is basically nothing but abuse of internals |
| 18:39 | gabnex | how functional is python compared to clojure? |
| 18:39 | arrdem | gabnex: arduino supports functional style in spite of Guido |
| 18:40 | gabnex | arduino??? :) |
| 18:40 | arrdem | sorry installing arguino crap in emacs |
| 18:40 | arrdem | brain in too many places |
| 18:40 | Raynes | gabnex: It depends on how you define functional. Python has a lot of what you'd expect from a functional language, but people don't often use those things. |
| 18:40 | Raynes | For example, map, filter, reduce. |
| 18:40 | gabnex | arrdem hah aok |
| 18:40 | Raynes | I've had use for map exactly once. |
| 18:41 | Raynes | I do Python professionally after using Clojure professionally and still have only used map once. |
| 18:41 | gabnex | Raynes I can't define it. the most functional languages I have used are python and C# |
| 18:41 | amalloy | python almost has lambdas |
| 18:41 | Raynes | Functions are first class though. |
| 18:42 | Raynes | So you can pass along any given function to higher order functions. |
| 18:42 | gabnex | do you mean that you use map in python less than in other languages? why? |
| 18:42 | Raynes | Like adults. |
| 18:42 | technomancy | I would argue that "how functional" is a question that makes more sense to ask of a program than a language. |
| 18:42 | Raynes | Because Python doesn't often give me reasons to use functional idioms like that. |
| 18:42 | technomancy | "how common are functional programs in $lang" might make more sense |
| 18:42 | Raynes | Usually I'd just use for or a list comprehension. |
| 18:42 | arrdem | Raynes: abusing list comprehensions is so much fun |
| 18:42 | Raynes | 'abusing' |
| 18:43 | Raynes | I prefer to call it gettin' kinky wit it |
| 18:43 | gabnex | i don't like list comprehensions much |
| 18:43 | Raynes | lol why? |
| 18:43 | Raynes | They are effectively syntactic sugar for map with extra features. |
| 18:43 | amalloy | list comprehensions are fantastic |
| 18:43 | amalloy | python's are weird because they have to be one-liners, but they're still nice |
| 18:44 | gabnex | my issues with it are largely cosmetical, it just looks weird. like a for loop read backwards, first the value then the loop. likewise with if statement |
| 18:44 | gabnex | if expression, rather |
| 18:45 | gabnex | r[x for x in [1,2,3,4,5] if x % 2 == 0] |
| 18:46 | gabnex | the order is all whacky |
| 18:46 | arrdem | gabnex: sure, but the meaning is obvious in terms of the input value sequence |
| 18:46 | Raynes | amalloy: https://www.refheap.com/88071 |
| 18:46 | bryanmaass | ,(filter even? (range 1 6)) |
| 18:46 | clojurebot | (2 4) |
| 18:46 | bryanmaass | sorry, I had to |
| 18:47 | amalloy | Bronsa: is there a reason that `(fn [~@(repeatedly 30 gensym)] 1) fails to compile, rather than just emitting a RestFn that checks that its arg count is exactly 30? |
| 18:47 | gabnex | that is a valid clojure? nice |
| 18:47 | gabnex | it looks like python's filter |
| 18:47 | Raynes | gabnex: God no |
| 18:47 | gabnex | what? |
| 18:47 | clojurebot | what is not a bug |
| 18:47 | Raynes | Oh, referring to the filter example. |
| 18:47 | gabnex | yes |
| 18:47 | Raynes | Okay, we're on the same page. |
| 18:47 | amalloy | clojurebot: many things |are| not bugs |
| 18:47 | clojurebot | In Ordnung |
| 18:47 | Raynes | Thought you were talking about my paste. |
| 18:48 | gabnex | I wasn't. I clicked it now |
| 18:49 | gabnex | what would be the clojure equivalent of that? |
| 18:50 | Bronsa | amalloy: I believe it would be quite hard to manage multiple arities with 20+ args that way |
| 18:50 | amalloy | (string/join ",\n" (for [[name redshift-type] (columns table overrides nulls)] (str name " " redshift-type))), although there may be something a bit more clever |
| 18:50 | Raynes | (clojure.string/join ",\n" (for [[name, redshift_type] (columns table overrides nulls))) |
| 18:50 | Bronsa | amalloy: also it would probably mess with recur |
| 18:50 | Raynes | I gave up |
| 18:50 | Raynes | Just closed my parens and went home. |
| 18:50 | Raynes | amalloy struck me down |
| 18:50 | arrdem | Bronsa: really? I thought that at 19 the compiler silently switched to varargs destructuring. |
| 18:50 | amalloy | (string/join ",\n" (map (partial string/join " ") (columns table overrides nulls))) |
| 18:51 | arrdem | or at least that's what I would expect. |
| 18:53 | Bronsa | amalloy: not saying it can't be done but that would require possibily collapsing multiple fn-methods into a single one, which is not something the compiler does right now |
| 18:54 | Bronsa | I can try prototyping that with t.e.j, shouldn't be hard |
| 18:54 | amalloy | nah, it doesn't seem like a compelling feature |
| 18:55 | Raynes | amalloy: ',\n'.join(map(' '.join, self.columns(table, overrides, nulls))) |
| 18:55 | Raynes | pwnt |
| 18:55 | Raynes | Jesus, amalloy is making my code better using an entirely different language. |
| 18:55 | Bronsa | amalloy: yeah recur would be broken, it currently doesn't handle varargs |
| 18:56 | Bronsa | ,(fn [& b] (recur 1 2)) |
| 18:56 | clojurebot | #<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Mismatched argument count to recur, expected: 1 args, got: 2, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)> |
| 18:56 | Bronsa | this could probably be considered a bug I guess |
| 18:57 | technomancy | I've run into that. it's pretty annoying |
| 18:57 | arrdem | I'd call that a bug... |
| 18:57 | technomancy | supposedly it's by design iirc |
| 18:57 | arrdem | or at least an obvious failure |
| 18:58 | Bronsa | technomancy: seems weird that'd be by design |
| 18:58 | technomancy | I agree |
| 18:58 | amalloy | well, how else is it going to work? you want to write (apply recur (rest xs))? |
| 18:59 | Bronsa | amalloy: the compiler can put xs in seq for recur args just like it does for function calls |
| 18:59 | hiredman | amalloy: well, given that you can call the function with (f 1 2), should you be able to recur inside the function with (recur 1 2) |
| 18:59 | arrdem | amalloy: recur isn't a fn and can't be applied. it's a special form and its arity is statically known, so you can do what Bronsa just said. |
| 19:00 | Bronsa | amalloy: I mean right now you need to do (fn [& x] (recur (list 1 2))) but the compiler could do that automatically |
| 19:01 | amalloy | Bronsa: my point is, consider (defn last-arg ([x] x) ([x & xs] (if (empty? xs) x (recur ...????)))). what do you fill in the blank there with, if the compiler automatically wraps things up in a list for you? |
| 19:02 | amalloy | you need another special form like apply-recur to define this function, if that's how varargs work |
| 19:02 | technomancy | amalloy: iirc you can't recur across bodies |
| 19:03 | amalloy | technomancy: of course not. my definition doesn't require you to |
| 19:03 | amalloy | the ([x] x) case is just so that it still works for one-arg calls; mabye it's clearer if i leave it out entirely |
| 19:03 | technomancy | right |
| 19:03 | Bronsa | amalloy: ah, I see |
| 19:04 | technomancy | I agree you'd need apply-recur |
| 19:04 | technomancy | it would make a lot more sense than what we have now |
| 19:04 | amalloy | technomancy: meh. if you had apply-recur, then every variadic function would need to use it; needing to recur and *not* apply it is super rare |
| 19:05 | amalloy | except in constructed examples to show how confusing recur is |
| 19:05 | Bronsa | technomancy: that's debatable, with amalloy's example in mind I can understand the decision to make recur varargs ignorant |
| 19:05 | technomancy | I don't see anything wrong with that |
| 19:07 | amalloy | technomancy: recur is only confusing if you view it as "call this function again with these args" instead of as "go back to the recur anchor-point and bind the named variables to this, this, and that" |
| 19:07 | technomancy | I'd rather have two forms for different things than one form that you can usually treat as a self-call, except for certain cases |
| 19:07 | technomancy | amalloy: which is exactly how everyone sees it, until they run into this weird quirk |
| 19:08 | technomancy | that's what recursion means in every other language |
| 19:08 | Bronsa | anybody knows the rationale for not optimizing self tail calls to recurs btw? |
| 19:08 | amalloy | Bronsa: so that if you accidentally make a non-tail call it's obvious (ie, fails to compile) |
| 19:09 | amalloy | if self-calls silently upgrade into recur, then you'll write a function that depends on this behavior, and then change it subtly so that it doesn't upgrade anymore, and never notice the difference |
| 19:10 | technomancy | [x] more compile-time correctness checking than scala |
| 19:10 | technomancy | wait did I say that out loud |
| 19:10 | Bronsa | the solution is easy: add the optimization without telling anybody |
| 19:10 | amalloy | hah. you know #clojure would notice it inside of a week |
| 19:11 | Bronsa | bonus points if the change makes in through a totally unrelated commit |
| 19:11 | Bronsa | something that Rich does all the time |
| 19:11 | amalloy | and then it'd become a feature as well-documented as "(zipmap (keys m) (vals m)) is guaranteed to work in the way you expect" |
| 19:11 | Bronsa | heh |
| 19:11 | technomancy | meaning core team members would contradict it publicly? |
| 19:13 | Bronsa | the one comment that probably bothered me more than Stu's on zipmap, is Rich saying that definlines should not work as HOFs |
| 19:13 | amalloy | technomancy: send yourself a thatsthejoke.jpg from me |
| 19:13 | technomancy | oh, dang |
| 19:14 | hiredman | Bronsa: subtilty tends to get lost online, could he have meant just the inline part of definlines? |
| 19:14 | hiredman | cause otherwise... |
| 19:14 | Bronsa | hiredman: I'm pretty sure Rich actually meant "you can't use them as functions" |
| 19:15 | hiredman | but, like, + |
| 19:15 | amalloy | Bronsa: do you have a link? i only vaguely remember this |
| 19:15 | Bronsa | hiredman: that uses {:inline ..} not definilne |
| 19:15 | Bronsa | amalloy: one sec |
| 19:15 | hiredman | Bronsa: yeah, those are totally different |
| 19:15 | hiredman | (that was sarcasm) |
| 19:16 | Bronsa | http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1227?focusedCommentId=33522&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel#comment-33522 |
| 19:16 | Raynes | I was incredibly sad to find that core folks were uninterested in a polymorphic range function. |
| 19:16 | Bronsa | well, it was actually Alex speaking for Rich |
| 19:16 | hiredman | yeah, I feel like something is lost there |
| 19:17 | Bronsa | hiredman: amalloy I find it pretty ridiculous that Alex/Rich would say that when reading through the implementation it's clear that they're supposed to behave as functions |
| 19:18 | hiredman | Bronsa: well, but there is no real way in clojure to say "this function isn't for higher order use" or something |
| 19:18 | hiredman | Bronsa: where as, in a lisp-2 like common lisp that is sort of the default stance |
| 19:18 | hiredman | (common lisp being mentioned in the ticket) |
| 19:19 | amalloy | hiredman: i don't get that, though - isn't a function that is only intended for inline use just a macro that evaluates each arg exactly once? |
| 19:19 | hiredman | so e.g. you want the compiler to try to optimize the expansion, and if it fails, you have a function in place to be used, but you don't want people to run around HOFing it up |
| 19:19 | Bronsa | also I'm pretty sure there's an example of a definline used as HOF in one of Stu's books, can't recall which Stu though |
| 19:20 | hiredman | amalloy: if you look at common lisp's compiler macros or whatever, they can sort of decline being expanded |
| 19:20 | amalloy | hiredman: by returning &form? |
| 19:21 | hiredman | amalloy: so you could write something that, as a clojure example, looks for certain type hints, and expands if they are there, and otherwise doesn't and turns in to a function call |
| 19:21 | hiredman | amalloy: I guess |
| 19:21 | amalloy | hiredman: sure. and that's a nice use of compiler macros. but what's the harm in also allowing it to be passed as a HOF? |
| 19:21 | hiredman | I don't know what the huge difference is, my initial reading about common lisp compiler macros, it seems like definline could do all that |
| 19:21 | hiredman | amalloy: dunno |
| 19:21 | Bronsa | that's funny |
| 19:22 | Bronsa | definilnes used to have a bug where they could work as HOFs but not in call position |
| 19:22 | Bronsa | https://groups.google.com/d/msg/clojure/iAt_DDUt6ZA/6RtFapvJugUJ |
| 19:22 | hiredman | http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Inlined+code cgrand and I are the only ones to drop comments |
| 19:23 | amalloy | i think clojure's {:inline ...} is basically equivalent to CL's compiler macros. i don't know of anything one can do that the other can't |
| 19:23 | hiredman | right, so what is rich going on about |
| 19:24 | hiredman | heh |
| 19:24 | hiredman | " (map square xs) would still need to be compiled as a function invocation. |
| 19:24 | hiredman | " |
| 19:25 | Bronsa | and that's exactly how definline currently works, as implemented |
| 19:26 | Bronsa | the bug preventing it to work was related to AOT compilation, had nothing to do with definline itself |
| 19:26 | hiredman | except for the compiler bug, which arguably has nothing to do with definline |
| 19:26 | hiredman | right |
| 19:26 | hiredman | stupid aot |
| 19:26 | amalloy | Bronsa: i think the joke was that alex miller wrote that wiki page, and in the jira article he was saying the opposite |
| 19:26 | amalloy | did the aot issue get fixed for 1.6? |
| 19:26 | Bronsa | nope |
| 19:27 | amalloy | gross |
| 19:28 | Shayanjm | amalloy: so I'm running into some issues with my NLP program. I may be attempting to analyze too much data at a time. I can either throw things into some sort of queue/handle them sync, or scale the computationally intensive tasks horizontally |
| 19:28 | amalloy | Bronsa, hiredman: another case of https://twitter.com/hiredman_/status/446003708015304704 |
| 19:28 | Shayanjm | The issue specifically is that I have some 30 articles coming in, and I'm attempting to do sentiment analysis + keyword extraction on the whole scraped article contents in parallel |
| 19:29 | Shayanjm | have I missed a more obvious solution/design pattern in clj? |
| 19:29 | hiredman | huh |
| 19:29 | Bronsa | TBH I really don't see how clojure/core can be so dismissive wrt AOT bugs given that both clojure and Datomic are AOT compiled |
| 19:31 | amalloy | Bronsa: don't forget, if you want your app to have a -main, you AOT compile everything under the sun. but at least this only impacts people who want to run clojure programs, which surely is a tiny subset of clojure programmers... |
| 19:31 | technomancy | cider is my shell; I don't know what your problem is |
| 19:32 | hiredman | cider is 99 problems |
| 19:32 | hiredman | but aot may aslo be one |
| 19:32 | hiredman | also |
| 19:32 | Bronsa | I actually used clojure today to batch rename a bunch of files because I can't into bash |
| 19:32 | Bronsa | (inc amalloy) |
| 19:32 | lazybot | ⇒ 148 |
| 19:33 | catern | you don't need bash for that |
| 19:33 | catern | use rename |
| 19:33 | catern | man rename |
| 19:33 | catern | (assuming your batch rename was simple...) |
| 19:33 | technomancy | just use emacs |
| 19:33 | Bronsa | I had to rename foo_bar_baz to "Foo Bar Baz" |
| 19:33 | technomancy | wdired-mode, M-x replace-regexp, save |
| 19:34 | catern | ew |
| 19:34 | Bronsa | tried using zmv which I think is similar to rename |
| 19:34 | catern | why would you do that? |
| 19:34 | catern | that's the exact opposite direction that you should go |
| 19:34 | catern | adding white space and capitals |
| 19:34 | catern | yuck! |
| 19:34 | Bronsa | technomancy: I contemplated doing that. next time. |
| 19:35 | Bronsa | catern: dude I want my mp3 file names to look nice |
| 19:35 | Bronsa | also it's 2014 and I can afford spaces in file names |
| 19:35 | catern | Bronsa: let your MP3 player show the names in the ID3 tags |
| 19:35 | catern | and your file manager too |
| 19:35 | amalloy | Bronsa: nice to meet another fan of the Metasyntactic Variables. Foo Bar Baz is my favorite song on their newest album |
| 19:36 | catern | (oh, you don't have a file manager that's scriptable enough to do that? yeah, neither do I ;_;) |
| 19:37 | Bronsa | catern: yes, I use id3 tags but it still bothers me when my files aren't named in The Right Way™ |
| 19:37 | catern | Bronsa: spaces is The Wrong Way |
| 19:45 | justin_smith | catern: that idiom ("the wrong way") always bugged me, there are always more wrong ways than right ways. For example, make the filename be the bytes of the mp3 data, and the file contents be the name. That is clearly wrongerer |
| 19:46 | technomancy | every happy mp3 is the same, and all unhappy mp3s are different in their own way. |
| 19:46 | technomancy | tolstoy said so |
| 19:47 | justin_smith | heh |
| 19:47 | catern | justin_smith: does the file contents have spaces? |
| 19:48 | {blake} | heh |
| 19:48 | justin_smith | no, they are replaced by NULL bytes |
| 19:49 | hiredman | NULL bytes are replaced by 0x2a and so on in that fashion |
| 20:00 | Shayanjm | so when processing large sets of data |
| 20:00 | Shayanjm | is it better to run things in parallel or in series if I'm concerned about memory usage? |
| 20:01 | Shayanjm | (i.e: how much 'worse' is running it in parallel? any optimization magic that happens in the back?) |
| 20:08 | gabnex | ah, clojure has list comprehensions too |
| 20:08 | gabnex | when do you use them over map/filter? |
| 20:09 | gabnex | i kind of hated them in python, as I said earlier |
| 20:09 | justin_smith | gabnex: for tends to be more readable than nested map calls |
| 20:09 | technomancy | gabnex: the filtering in c.c/for is clearer IMO than in python |
| 20:09 | technomancy | since it's almost always on its own line |
| 20:10 | gabnex | (they looked weird/backwards in python, and also leaked variable names). |
| 20:10 | gabnex | technomancy yeah they do look cleaner. I think I will still like filter/map more |
| 20:11 | technomancy | usually I filter/map if you have a readymade function that works and use for if I'd have to construct a lambda |
| 20:11 | justin_smith | gabnex: if your mapping function is also your predicate (maybe returning nil for unwanted elements, and the transformed version otherwise), keep is handy |
| 20:11 | gabnex | techno even with nifty % syntax to shorten lambdas? |
| 20:11 | justin_smith | (doc keep) |
| 20:11 | clojurebot | "([f coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of the non-nil results of (f item). Note, this means false return values will be included. f must be free of side-effects." |
| 20:12 | technomancy | gabnex: yeah |
| 20:13 | Bronsa | I hate that keep doesn't have a 1-arity with f defaulting to identity |
| 20:13 | justin_smith | Bronsa: yeah, I bet that would be the most common usage if it existed |
| 20:13 | Frozenlock | Bronsa: I would use that. |
| 20:14 | technomancy | there's a jira for that! |
| 20:14 | technomancy | TM |
| 20:14 | justin_smith | ™ |
| 20:14 | technomancy | actually I think the jira issue is for a similar function; it's been around so long it predates keep |
| 20:14 | Bronsa | might be for filter? |
| 20:14 | amalloy | Bronsa: why would you put that on keep? i'd put it on filter |
| 20:14 | technomancy | sounds right |
| 20:15 | amalloy | amusingly, (remove xs) and (filter xs) would kinda have to do the same thing |
| 20:15 | Frozenlock | (filter [1 nil 0]) --> (1 0)... ohhh now I want that |
| 20:15 | Bronsa | amalloy: I mean, keep identity and filter identity behave the same way, keep is 2chars shorter |
| 20:15 | amalloy | maybe that's why it doesn't exist |
| 20:16 | amalloy | Bronsa: *almost* the same way |
| 20:16 | amalloy | &((juxt keep filter) identity [1 nil 2 false 3]) |
| 20:16 | lazybot | ⇒ [(1 2 false 3) (1 2 3)] |
| 20:16 | Bronsa | oh, right |
| 20:17 | justin_smith | amalloy: perhaps (remove xs) could simple return all nil items in the input, discarding the non-nil |
| 20:17 | gabnex | can I mutate a list in clojure? |
| 20:17 | justin_smith | which is of course pretty much useless |
| 20:17 | amalloy | gabnex: no |
| 20:18 | technomancy | and even if you could, you wouldn't |
| 20:18 | gabnex | I probably would :). |
| 20:19 | technomancy | "For the same reason we don't wear animal skins or hunt the woolly mammoth. Because we're not savages." |
| 20:19 | technomancy | http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/06/06/ |
| 20:21 | justin_smith | gabnex: probably the greatest boon in clojure is the wide range of errors that become impossible with mutation (this especially comes into play when you have multiple threads). it's harder to think in immutible objects at first, but it is worth it |
| 20:21 | justin_smith | *impossible without mutation, that is |
| 20:25 | gabnex | justin_smith it is probably my ignorance but I don't understand how lack of mutation helps when having multiple threads. if a value is immutable we must take it and return a new one. if two threads do this at the same time, one thread could be working on the old, dated value, and not on the current one. so don't we still have issues, only in a different way? |
| 20:25 | justin_smith | gabnex: the class of errors avoided are partial updates |
| 20:26 | justin_smith | that is, where something is read in the middle of an update, and the contents are invalid |
| 20:26 | gabnex | but we introduce another class of errors, working on a dated value |
| 20:26 | technomancy | gabnex: that kind of mistake is trivial to catch because it's deterministic |
| 20:26 | justin_smith | gabnex: one of these is tractable, the other just leads to reading garbage |
| 20:27 | gabnex | how do you prevent this? locks? |
| 20:27 | justin_smith | gabnex: that is the mutation oriented solution |
| 20:27 | technomancy | gabnex: you just don't do it because it doesn't make sense |
| 20:27 | justin_smith | and that leads to deadlocks, livelocks, etc. - errors that pretty much never happen in live clojure code, because we don't ever use locks |
| 20:27 | gabnex | don't do what |
| 20:27 | justin_smith | (don't use them directly that is) |
| 20:28 | justin_smith | gabnex: I recommend the book "Java Concurrency in Practice" |
| 20:28 | justin_smith | it gives a really good overview of why locks are tricky, and whenever possible, immutability is easier and less error prone |
| 20:28 | justin_smith | clojure simply increases the range of domains where immutability becomes reasonable |
| 20:29 | technomancy | gabnex: the mistake you're describing is just that of thinking imperatively in an fp language. it's not something that you do when you know how clojure works. |
| 20:31 | gfredericks | gabnex: if you're using an atom, then swap! will ensure that if you are working on a dated value, you end up redoing your computation on the current value |
| 20:31 | gfredericks | if you're using an agent, then the updates are guaranteed to be serialized |
| 20:31 | gfredericks | two different ways of solving the problem depending on your needs |
| 20:32 | gabnex | gfredericks interesting. is immutability a requirement for those techniques to work, though? |
| 20:32 | gfredericks | certainly for atoms |
| 20:32 | gfredericks | because you will have multiple threads processing the same value |
| 20:33 | justin_smith | gabnex: remember that in clojure we can simplify questions of identity and state, and both of those approaches come from clojure's simplified view of identity and state |
| 20:33 | justin_smith | which is of course rooted in immutability |
| 20:33 | gfredericks | and in both cases the current value can be read by any other thread without locking, so you wouldn't want it to be stateful |
| 20:36 | justin_smith | also, the mutable java collections are all easily accessible from clojure via interop. It's just that outside of specialized applications we don't really find them that useful given the persistent alternatives. |
| 20:37 | gabnex | do we only have mutable collections from java? clojure does not introduce any new ones? |
| 20:37 | justin_smith | well, you can introduce a deftype with mutable fields for example |
| 20:38 | justin_smith | but java has a very rich and complete set of data structures |
| 20:38 | justin_smith | so in practice you won't find much missing, if you are OK with the mutation aspect |
| 20:39 | justin_smith | trees, lists, vectors, sets and maps of all sorts, queues, deques, etc. etc. |
| 20:39 | amalloy | but justin_smith, what if i want a mutable finger tree? i bet java doesn't have *those* |
| 20:40 | justin_smith | amalloy: I am sure some brilliant clojure programmer would set you up with something nice for that |
| 20:40 | amalloy | (answer: if i want that, i am probably a madman, beyond science's reach to rescue) |
| 20:40 | justin_smith | or that |
| 20:47 | gfredericks | A -> (B -> A) |
| 20:49 | amalloy | gfredericks: what what? |
| 20:51 | gfredericks | A = "I am probably a madman, beyond science's reach to rescue" |
| 20:51 | gfredericks | B = "If I want that" |
| 20:52 | gfredericks | my apologies I had a conversation with a logician yesterday and so apparently this is what happens to my jokes |
| 20:52 | justin_smith | lol |
| 20:53 | amalloy | gfredericks: must not have been a very good conversation - you seem to be concluding causation based on this correlation |
| 20:55 | gfredericks | come on what is causation anyhow |
| 20:55 | gfredericks | also I don't think my statement literally said anything about causation |
| 20:56 | amalloy | i think "and so" is correlated quite strongly with implying causation |
| 20:56 | justin_smith | in all fairness, it could have been a claim about how things are considered "apperent", natural language is nicely ambiguous that way |
| 20:57 | justin_smith | *apparent |
| 20:57 | gfredericks | I'm a parent |
| 20:58 | gfredericks | (my apologies I had a conversation with amalloy today and so apparently this is what happens to my jokes) |
| 20:58 | justin_smith | (inc gfredericks) |
| 20:58 | lazybot | ⇒ 75 |
| 22:20 | hiredman | hmmmm |
| 22:20 | hiredman | test.check's defspec prints stuff out to stdout on success |
| 22:20 | hiredman | seems terrible |
| 22:24 | catern | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8017588 |
| 22:24 | catern | god this is awful |
| 22:24 | catern | https://github.com/eobrain/funcgo |
| 22:24 | catern | whyyy |
| 22:24 | catern | so awful |
| 22:25 | justin_smith | eta for the "fuckgo" offshoot? |
| 22:25 | justin_smith | which of course has an obvious crossover with "self" |
| 22:56 | puredanger_ | amalloy: sometimes I am a flawed translator for Rich :) |
| 23:29 | noprompt | seems kinda silly that (keyword 'foo) works but (symbol :foo) doesn't :/ |
| 23:39 | trptcolin | noprompt: hmm, yeah i don’t see any reason why keyword & symbol shouldn’t offer the same conversions |
| 23:39 | trptcolin | there’s other fun too: |
| 23:39 | trptcolin | ,:123 |
| 23:39 | clojurebot | :123 |
| 23:39 | trptcolin | ,(keyword 123) |
| 23:39 | clojurebot | nil |
| 23:50 | noprompt | trptcolin: ha! i hadn't discovered that one yet. any reasons why this has/hasn't been patched? |
| 23:51 | trptcolin | not sure if there’s a jira ticket for that or not |
| 23:52 | dbasch | trptcolin: I think it's intended behavior |
| 23:52 | dbasch | or at least it's properly documented |
| 23:52 | dbasch | (keyword name): name can be string, symbol, or keyword. |
| 23:53 | dbasch | symbols cannot start with numbers |
| 23:54 | noprompt | dbasch: i can perhaps understand (keyword 123) not working, however the former case i mentioned seems a bit weird. |
| 23:54 | noprompt | because you seldom want keyword -> integer. |
| 23:55 | trptcolin | dbasch: yeah, i mean i agree, but attempting to match the docs on the numeric-keyword thing breaks existing code, so it’s not happening anytime soon (see http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1252) |
| 23:55 | noprompt | the error message you get from (symbol :foo) is also not helpful either. |
| 23:55 | noprompt | ClassCastException clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to java.lang.String clojure.core/symbol (core.clj:546) |
| 23:56 | dbasch | yes, that's par for the course for core |
| 23:57 | trptcolin | right, i mean it seems to me that (source keyword) vs. (source symbol) ought to be symmetric with each other, since they’re so close now and it shouldn’t break anybody (nobody should depend on that CCE) |
| 23:57 | trptcolin | i’d vote up a jira for it |
| 23:57 | noprompt | trptcolin: is there an open issue? |
| 23:58 | noprompt | sorry, interleaving some work atm |
| 23:58 | trptcolin | i don’t think so |
| 23:58 | puredanger_ | I don't know of one |
| 23:58 | noprompt | puredanger_: what are your thoughts? |
| 23:59 | puredanger_ | all sounds reasonable to me. |
