#clojure – 2014-07-03

2014-07-03

02:05	[Neurotic]	Hi, I've used extend-type, but no matter what I do, I can't seem to get it t compile. It keeps giving me 'unable to resolve symbol'. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong here? https://www.refheap.com/87821
02:06	[Neurotic]	I've done something stupid, but I can't see what it is
02:35	ddellacosta	[Neurotic]: what is get-value?
02:36	[Neurotic]	ddellacosta: what do you mean? it's defined on line 21
02:36	ddellacosta	[Neurotic]: oh, I see, sorry
02:36	[Neurotic]	Ah cool. Wasn't sure if I was crazy :)
02:36	ddellacosta	[Neurotic]: try requiring storm.trident.testing in the same ns declaration
02:37	ddellacosta	[Neurotic]: damnit, sorry, you are. I must be sleepy today
02:37	[Neurotic]	nope, no win :(
02:37	[Neurotic]	unfortunately :/
02:37	ddellacosta	[Neurotic]: well, wait, where is the type declared?
02:38	[Neurotic]	it's a Java type.
02:38	ddellacosta	oh
02:38	[Neurotic]	it's imported on line 15
02:38	ddellacosta	[Neurotic]: right, thought it was a type though
02:40	ddellacosta	[Neurotic]: have you tried importing the get-value fn from marceline.storm.trident where the Protocol is defined?
02:40	ddellacosta	[Neurotic]: I think that's actually what you want to be doing vs. :refer :all from marceline.storm.testing
02:41	Viesti_	hum
02:41	Viesti	doh, I had a tail!
02:42	[Neurotic]	[marceline.storm.testing :refer [get-value]] << like so? says it doesn't exist
02:42	ddellacosta	[Neurotic]: also, it may be the case that you have to define multiple-arity get-value separately: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/clojure/XeY7MGrcxLQ/6fMfdoWzjWMJ
02:43	[Neurotic]	ddellacosta: ooh, lemme try that
02:43	Viesti	why do <,>,=,<=,>= return true in the single argument case?
02:43	ddellacosta	[Neurotic]: also, not [marceline.storm.testing :refer [get-value]] but rather [marceline.storm.trident :refer [get-value]]
02:44	Viesti	we had a discussion on another channel where a guy had a bug in his code where he passed only one argument to =
02:44	Viesti	I understand and quite like of the generality in say <
02:44	Viesti	but maybe the one arg case is a bit confusing
02:45	Viesti	this haskell guy was of the opinion that such generality should live elsewhere, but thought about having a good argument on why to keep it in those functions. The generality is at least close in the source code :)
02:48	ddellacosta	Viesti: I think you'd probably get a good answer on the mailing list, but I don't have much other than a guess, which is to maintain consistency with other Clojure functions. But that's just a guess.
02:50	ddellacosta	[Neurotic]: did it work?
02:50	[Neurotic]	ddellacosta: nope, but I think I have another idea... need to try it
02:51	ddellacosta	[Neurotic]: multiple declarations per arity + that require didn't work? Hmm
02:52	[Neurotic]	I don't think so, I've kinda scrapped it, and trying it again, see if I did something stupid
02:53	ddellacosta	[Neurotic]: well, I don't have any great ideas past that; I hope you figure it out! Good luck
02:54	ddellacosta	[Neurotic]: oh, one more stupid freaking thing actually--I've had trouble when I had the import at the top of the ns statement vs. bottom, believe it or not
02:54	[Neurotic]	ddellacosta: looks like the refer worked for a friend of mine... I may try out his code
02:55	ddellacosta	[Neurotic]: okay, hope that works for you
02:57	[Neurotic]	ddellacosta: yep, working looks like. Actually needed a [marceline.storm.trident :refer [get-value]]
02:57	[Neurotic]	which brought in the get-value function from the protocol, so it knew what was going on
02:57	ddellacosta	[Neurotic]: ah okay, great
02:58	ddellacosta	[Neurotic]: thought it may be related
03:10	Viesti	ddellacosta: common lips has same single arity case for =,< etc.
03:11	Viesti	of course should have looked there :)
03:12	[Neurotic]	ddellacosta: yep, all passing now :) Thanks for your help!
03:12	ddellacosta	Viesti: what's the reason there?
03:12	ddellacosta	[Neurotic]: great! Glad you got it working.
03:40	Viesti	ddellacosta: didn't find out yet
04:06	petrust	How to combine secretary with Om? Should one manipulate the app state atom and then conditionally render in the main Om fn?
04:06	petrust	Or is there a different om call that I can call from my defroute fns?
04:08	borkdude	petrust I have an example of this
04:09	petrust	thx, borkdude :)
04:09	borkdude	petrust this might give you an idea:
04:09	borkdude	https://www.refheap.com/87825
04:10	borkdude	petrust call define-routes from will-mount
04:10	borkdude	it needs the access to the data argument provided to the Om component
04:10	borkdude	that's why I used this construction
04:11	borkdude	petrust some more code: https://www.refheap.com/87826
04:12	borkdude	hope this answers your question a bit
04:12	petrust	thanks, borkdude!
04:38	petrust	I’m having a weird issue with dependencies, specifically related to dependencies.
04:38	petrust	*related to secretary
04:38	petrust	I’ve added [secretary "1.2.1-SNAPSHOT"] to project.clj deps
04:38	petrust	I ran> lein clein
04:38	petrust	and lein cljsbuild clean
04:38	petrust	if I run lein deps, I get no output, so presumably all deps are satisfied
04:38	petrust	but if I now try to run lein cljsbuild auto, I get the following error:
04:39	petrust	Caused by: java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate secretary/core__init.class or secretary/core.clj on classpath:
04:42	noidi	lein classpath \| grep secretary
04:42	noidi	is the JAR on the classpath?
04:43	petrust	yes
04:43	petrust	it’s there
04:44	petrust	- /Users/petrus/.m2/repository/secretary/secretary/1.2.1-SNAPSHOT/secretary-1.2.1-SNAPSHOT.jar:
04:46	noidi	unfortunately I don't know enough about cljsbuild to help you :/
04:46	petrust	downgraded dep to 1.2.0, same error.
04:48	ddellacosta	petrust: did you include secretary in any source files, or did you merely add it to the project.clj dependencies?
04:48	petrust	addid it to project.clj and :require it in my main.cljs
04:48	petrust	i.e. :require … [secretary.core :as s :include-macros true :refer [defroute]])
04:48	ddellacosta	petrust: what happens if you get rid of :include-macros true, does it compile okay?
04:49	ddellacosta	petrust: and defroute, since that is a macro
04:49	ddellacosta	petrust: that is, only this: [secretary.core :as s]
04:49	petrust	seems to be working…
04:51	ddellacosta	petrust: huh, okay. What about if you then add the macro stuff back in via (:require-macros [secretary.core :refer [defroute]]) at the top of your ns form?
04:52	petrust	added back, compiling…works!
04:52	petrust	hmm
04:52	ddellacosta	petrust: weird. I'm not sure what is going on since I just created a brand new project and compiled it just fine w/secretary exactly as you described in your first example.
04:53	ddellacosta	I'll try cleaning as you did, see if that makes any difference
04:54	ddellacosta	nope, works fine...curious
04:55	ddellacosta	petrust: I'm wondering if there's some other wackiness happening in your project.clj, but I'm really not sure what would be causing this. However, if you can get it to work with :require-macros I suppose you're set...
04:56	joelkuiper	Does anyone have any experience with using core.async with the HTTP-kit server? Basically I have some (long running) process ops that return a channel (with the computer value on it when done). I'd like to use the HTTP-kit long-polling trick for sending the responses
04:57	joelkuiper	but I'm usure how to proceed; this is what I have right now https://gist.github.com/joelkuiper/d6c03488432f3146d72b
04:59	petrust	ddellacosta: ran lein cljsbuild clean, then lein cljsbuild auto again (with :include-macros), and it seems to work now.
04:59	petrust	must be some weird state or env var somewhere
05:00	ddellacosta	petrust: huh, okay, that's good. Sometimes an extra clean will do the trick, no idea why sadly...
05:01	petrust	tried a whole bunch of cleans - can’t replicate the error :/
05:07	borkdude	petrust I had the same kind of error yesterday when I tried to write a macro in clojurescript
05:07	borkdude	cleaning, restarting, retrying.. at some point it worked
05:14	joelkuiper	https://stackoverflow.com/questions/24549565/using-http-kit-long-polling-with-core-async-channels
06:12	Janiczek	Is there any kind of polymorphism operating on two arguments? I'm creating a game and want to do things like (use-on :egg :pan), (use-on :bucket :cow) - but don't know how to NOT have a huge bloated definition of use-on. I'd like to be able to extend it from elsewhere
06:13	Janiczek	Would multimethods and (use-on [object subject]) instead of (use-on object subject) work?
06:13	Glenjamin	multimethods can dispatch on all arguments
06:15	Janiczek	Glenjamin: care to elaborate?
06:15	Glenjamin	yep, just typing a repl example :)
06:16	Janiczek	Glenjamin: great, thx :)
06:16	Glenjamin	,(do (defmulti f vector) (defmethod f [:a :b] :a-and-b) (defmethod f [:c :d] :c-and-d))
06:16	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Parameter declaration :a-and-b should be a vector, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
06:16	Glenjamin	oh right
06:17	Glenjamin	,(do (defmulti f vector) (defmethod f [:a :b] [&_] :a-and-b) (defmethod f [:c :d] [&_] :c-and-d))
06:17	clojurebot	#<MultiFn clojure.lang.MultiFn@28500a>
06:17	Glenjamin	,(f :a :b)
06:17	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: sandbox/eval56/fn--57>
06:17	Glenjamin	hrm, i guess i need to be more explicit
06:17	Glenjamin	,(do (defmulti f (fn [a b] [a b]) (defmethod f [:a :b] [&_] :a-and-b) (defmethod f [:c :d] [&_] :c-and-d))
06:17	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
06:17	Glenjamin	,(do (defmulti f (fn [a b] [a b])) (defmethod f [:a :b] [&_] :a-and-b) (defmethod f [:c :d] [&_] :c-and-d))
06:17	clojurebot	#<MultiFn clojure.lang.MultiFn@28500a>
06:18	Glenjamin	,(f :a :b)
06:18	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: sandbox/eval138/fn--139>
06:19	Janiczek	,(do (defmulti f identity) (defmethod f [:a :b] :a-and-b) (defmethod f [:c :d] :c-and-d) (f [:c :d]))
06:19	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Parameter declaration :a-and-b should be a vector, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
06:20	Glenjamin	i could have sworn this worked :s
06:21	Glenjamin	oh right, it doesn't like my variadic thing
06:21	Glenjamin	(do (defmulti f (fn [a b] [a b])) (defmethod f [:a :b] [a b] :a-and-b) (defmethod f [:c :d] [a b] :c-and-d))
06:21	Glenjamin	,(do (defmulti f (fn [a b] [a b])) (defmethod f [:a :b] [a b] :a-and-b) (defmethod f [:c :d] [a b] :c-and-d))
06:21	clojurebot	#<MultiFn clojure.lang.MultiFn@28500a>
06:21	Glenjamin	(f :a :b)
06:21	Glenjamin	,(f :a :b)
06:21	clojurebot	:a-and-b
06:21	Glenjamin	,(f :c :d)
06:21	clojurebot	:c-and-d
06:21	Glenjamin	,(f :c :a)
06:21	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No method in multimethod 'f' for dispatch value: [:c :a]>
06:21	Janiczek	nice :)
06:21	Janiczek	thanks a lot!
07:02	silasdavis	I think I've found a bug in: https://github.com/clojure/data.priority-map
07:03	silasdavis	(-> (priority-map-by (fn [[_ x1] [_ x2]] (compare x1 x2))) (assoc :a [:foo 2]) (assoc :b [:bar 2]) (assoc :c [:baz 1]))
07:03	silasdavis	returns {:c [:baz 1], :b [:foo 2], :a [:foo 2]}
07:03	silasdavis	that is, when you use a custom comparator it looks like if two values are equal under comparison they are considered to be the same
07:04	silasdavis	rather than just being sorted as equal
07:05	silasdavis	I was using a priority map for [path-to-node distance] and I was getting path-to-node overwritten in all key-value pairs with the same distance
07:05	silasdavis	where can I report this?
07:06	silasdavis	issues are disabled on that repo
07:06	Bronsa	silasdavis: https://github.com/clojure/data.priority-map/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md
07:08	silasdavis	ah thanks
07:09	Bronsa	silasdavis: I'm reading the readme, have you read http://sprunge.us/VXXT this?
07:09	silasdavis	ah
07:09	silasdavis	well done
07:10	silasdavis	and thanks
07:10	Bronsa	np
07:10	silasdavis	that's excactly what I'm doing wrong
07:53	perplexa	hai. is there a way to get the namespace of a function from within the function?
07:54	perplexa	like (ns mynamespace ...) (defn x[] (resolve mynamespace here))
07:54	TEttinger	,ns
07:54	clojurebot	#<Namespace sandbox>
07:54	perplexa	that doesn't work
07:55	perplexa	ns is the current namespace, not the absolute namespace of a function ;/
07:55	Bronsa	you have to close over the ns
07:55	Bronsa	(let [ns ns] (defn x [] ns))
07:55	perplexa	i was using ns before and it ended up interning functions to the wrong namespace ;p
08:57	Janiczek	hmm uberjar seems not to pack swing with my seesaw project ... is it normal? (when I run it with `java -jar the.jar`, it's OK and sees Swing, but when I bundle it with Ant AppBundler to an .app, it throws NoClassDefFound for java.awt.Window$Type)
08:57	Janiczek	(no expert on Java ecosystem)
09:34	Janiczek	ah, it's probably me (in shell) running java 1.7+ and the system (in the bundled .app) running 1.6 or something. java.awt.Window$Type is from 1.7+ up
09:47	fowlslegs	,(.rotateRight (long 8) (int 1))
09:47	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: rotateRight for class java.lang.Long>
09:47	fowlslegs	http://docs.oracle.com/javase/8/docs/api/java/lang/Long.html#rotateRight-long-int-
10:00	Bronsa	fowlslegs: it's a static method
10:00	Bronsa	,(Long/rotateRight 8 1)
10:00	clojurebot	4
10:12	gfredericks	those sorts of things get made static so they can use primitives amirite?
10:13	Bronsa	gfredericks: probably, yeah
10:30	cbp	arrdem: should the `add examples' page default to 1.4?
10:31	cbp	I think it would be more practical to default to the latest no?
10:49	zeebrah	dae know where this moved (out of contrib) http://richhickey.github.io/clojure-contrib/miglayout-api.html ?
10:51	fowlslegs	,(map #(.bitCount (biginteger (- % 30))) (range 30))
10:51	clojurebot	(4 3 4 3 3 ...)
10:51	fowlslegs	,(apply list (map #(.bitCount (biginteger (- % 30))) (range 30)))
10:51	clojurebot	(4 3 4 3 3 ...)
10:51	puredanger	zeebrah: afaik it did not go anywhere
10:51	puredanger	http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
10:51	cbp	zeebrah: maybe you can use this https://github.com/scgilardi/artem
10:52	fowlslegs	,(.bitCount (biginteger 7))
10:52	clojurebot	3
10:52	fowlslegs	,(.bitCount (biginteger -7))
10:52	clojurebot	2
10:52	zeebrah	puredanger: yeah i saw that page just before
10:52	fowlslegs	Can someone explain what's going on with the java.lang.BigInteger class here?
10:52	zeebrah	cbp: is that maintained? it seems not
10:53	cbp	more recently maintained than clojure.contrib.ma
10:53	fowlslegs	I understand what it means to be in two's complement notation, but it does not specify how many bits it uses as a base.
10:53	cbp	clojure.contrib.miglayout :-p
10:54	fowlslegs	This page http://docs.oracle.com/javase/8/docs/api/java/math/BigInteger.html doesn't, that is.
10:54	zeebrah	cbp: it's not the actual miglayout library though, just a coupla useful macros/functions
11:00	fowlslegs	Ahh, it must represent it in two's complement notation in byte multiples. I can finally write my hamming distance function for comparing two BigInts.
12:02	PigDude	when you are sharing core.async code between cljs and clj, does your namespace declaration look like this? https://www.refheap.com/87837
12:02	PigDude	it seems really ugly
12:03	PigDude	#+cljs/#+clj everywhere, and the hassle of maintaining two sets of requirements
12:03	PigDude	*the same set in two places
12:17	Willis1	Hi, I'm investigating the use of The Grinder's support for Clojure:
12:17	Willis1	http://grinder.sourceforge.net/g3/clojure.html
12:18	Willis1	But from what I can tell, there's no way to use lein to pull in additional dependencies
12:18	Willis1	because the Grinder invokes the clojure scripts directly
12:18	Willis1	Has anybody made any effort to use lein and grinder together?
12:46	synkte	What is the best way to test a function that creates a new row entry into a sql database?
12:46	synkte	Is there a lib that could help with that?
12:48	mdeboard	synkte: http://clojure.github.io/java.jdbc/#clojure.java.jdbc/insert!
12:49	synkte	mdeboard: So use the ":transaction?" param?
12:50	mdeboard	synkte: Depends on your particular application
12:50	mdeboard	but if you're asking, the answer is yes
12:51	mdeboard	synkte: Well, the default is true, so no :P
12:52	synkte	mdeboard: So, what would be the best way to test a function that does an insert to a sql database?
12:56	mdeboard	synkte: Insert, then do a select for that value, then delete it if it iexists
12:56	mdeboard	synkte: Do you mean like a unit test i.e. application testing or to only insert if there isn't already a record?
12:57	synkte	mdeboard: unit test
12:57	mdeboard	synkte: Yeah then the way I said there
12:57	synkte	mdeboard: Thank you :)
12:58	mdeboard	no prob
12:58	mdeboard	I bet amalloy_ has some kind of context manager (`(with-row)`)or something that takes care of that cleanup for you
13:01	synkte	mdeboard: That would be awesome
13:03	mdeboard	until then though yeah you'd just have to clean it up yourseff
13:04	mdeboard	synkte: There is this http://clojure.github.io/java.jdbc/#clojure.java.jdbc/with-db-transaction that you could then roll back once done but you'd have to do some additional setup to ensure constraints were not deferred
13:06	mdeboard	13:01 <mdeboard> until then though yeah you'd just have to clean it up yourseff
13:06	mdeboard	13:02 <mdeboard> synkte: There is this http://clojure.github.io/java.jdbc/#clojure.java.jdbc/with-db-transaction that you could then roll back once done but you'd have to do some additional setup to ensure constraints were not deferred
13:06	mdeboard	otherwise you're not actually testing the insert
13:06	mdeboard	just something kinda like it
13:11	dbasch	mdeboard: if I had a unit test for a db I would create a dummy table, insert, and then delete the table
13:11	Janiczek	are immutable bags (multisets) available in clojurescript, or do I have to somehow include mori-bag? (I'm in browser env, not node)
13:15	dbasch	Janiczek: clojure.core doesn't have multisets but there are some libraries around, it shouldn't be hard to adapt one of those for cljs
13:15	Janiczek	yeah, I've found https://github.com/achim/multiset which seams reasonably easy to port
13:16	Janiczek	only protocols and clojure.algo (which I'm not so sure about but maybe it can be bypassed)
13:17	dbasch	Janiczek: as an alternative, you could have a map of keys to counts
13:17	dbasch	it would be a bit clunkier but at least you wouldn't need an external lib
13:18	dbasch	of course it might be very inefficient if most of your items appear once
13:18	dave-7	hey, when using om/root to render a site, you pass it a component, an atom and a map. Should the component be re-rendered if I swap! the atom at some point? The basic tutorial seems to indicate so, but I'm not having any luck. Does the atom count as "attached" to a root if you call (om/root some-comp some-atom {:target dom-node})?
13:47	Klaufir	How can I process output from tagsoup ? I have something like this:
13:47	Klaufir	[:html {} [:head {} [:title {} "asd"]] [:body {} [:div {:class "dc"} "text"]]]
13:48	danielszmulewicz	I've been using 'length instead of 'count on sequences, and I could swear it was working all the same. Now I get a runtime error. What gives?
13:48	amalloy	mdeboard: nope, i don't. it also seems a little wonky: don't you want to use the db's transaction mechanism if you're inserting stuff you never want to appear there?
13:48	tolitius	is there a way to require/use from within a function: e.g. in a local scope? https://www.refheap.com/87842
13:49	amalloy	danielszmulewicz: length has never in a million years worked
13:49	danielszmulewicz	amalloy: I'm hallucinating then.
13:49	amalloy	tolitius: no
13:49	dbasch	Klaufir: what do you mean by process? What do you want to get out of that?
13:49	ToxicFrog	danielszmulewicz: .length might have worked, if you were using it on Java objects?
13:49	mdeboard	amalloy: You do, like I said though it requires a little more insight into how constraints are handled inside a transaction, i.e. initially immediate/deferred, not deferred, etc.
13:50	amalloy	ToxicFrog: only on arrays or strings. collections have .size
13:50	mdeboard	that just seemed like a bridge too far to cover w/ that guy's question
13:50	danielszmulewicz	ToxicFrog: No. Just 'length on clojure sequences. I'm utterly confused.
13:50	amalloy	danielszmulewicz: maybe you were using clojure 1.9? the rest of us are still on 1.6, but who knows what future versions will bring
13:51	Klaufir	dbasch: I am looking for the language features to process nestes structures like this. Say I want to get the content for :html/:head/:title
13:51	dbasch	Klaufir: look into things like get-in, or clojure.walk
13:51	danielszmulewicz	amalloy: Hehe, that must be it. I'm with a future version of Clojure.
13:51	danielszmulewicz	(inc amalloy)
13:51	lazybot	⇒ 136
13:51	Klaufir	dbasch: thanks
13:52	tolitius	amalloy: thx. I have to aot a file, but only need some ns at runtime (e.g. in -main), otherwise they have macros that expand into a "never ending ..", so it would not aot compile unless it is in main. is there a known way to load/see/make visible from within a function instead?
13:54	amalloy	whaaaaa? you've written a macro that doesn't compile, so you want it at runtime? i think you must be confused about something; do you have more specific code that doesn't work?
13:54	amalloy	more likely, i think, is that you have some def at the top level of a namespace that performs side effects, such as connecting to a database; the solution is to not have side effects at compile-time, but instead to def a delay or a function that is called at runtime
13:58	tolitius	amalloy: yes, you are right, but it is not a def, it is a macro, that, when expands (which happens during compilation), starts a scheduler, hence will work on demand, but not if aot'ed. I am looking for a way to isolate this macro expansion in -main. (yes, I know that macro should be rewritten, but that is a bit more difficult at the moment [different project, different existing dependencies, etc.])
14:00	hiredman	tolitius: if the macro performs side effects at macro expansion time there is no way to isolate that, code is macro expanded before it is compiled and then run
14:00	hiredman	aot compilation saves the byte code after compiling so you can run it later, but the macro expand has already happened
14:03	tolitius	hiredman: I understand that, what I am looking for is a way to only ever "require"/"use"/"load" the namespace where this macro lives on demand. e.g. compile the file that in main has "… and 'import' this namespace as you're running (e.g. runtime)"
14:04	tolitius	hiredman: avoiding compiling the namespace with this macro ahead of time
14:05	TimMc	tolitius: It sounds like your desire to do this with a macro is distorting your entire program.
14:05	danielszmulewicz	amalloy: Mystery solved. I was using incanter which advertises a :use namespace usage. This should be outlawed.
14:06	technomancy	~guards
14:06	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
14:06	amalloy	tolitius: i don't know what this macro is, but it sounds like a scourge on this planet
14:07	tolitius	TimMc: it is more of a curiosity now, since I see why it would be useful to do, and now I just want to get to the bottom of whether it is possible (I agree that macro needs to be changed)
14:08	tolitius	TimMc: (to have a better control of what gets aot'ed)
14:09	tolitius	TimMc: similar to http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-322
14:12	Demosthenes_	(doc +)
14:12	clojurebot	"([] [x] [x y] [x y & more]); Returns the sum of nums. (+) returns 0. Does not auto-promote longs, will throw on overflow. See also: +'"
14:13	Demosthenes_	(doc apply)
14:13	clojurebot	"([f args] [f x args] [f x y args] [f x y z args] [f a b c d ...]); Applies fn f to the argument list formed by prepending intervening arguments to args."
14:19	stuartsierra	All, CLJ-322, old friend. It's been a while. We were so young back then. Where did all the time go?
14:46	danielszmulewicz	I assumed that any library that has 'core in it (like core.matrix) ships with Clojure. Wrong again.
14:47	amalloy	danielszmulewicz: most don't
14:47	amalloy	core.* is more like "libraries that might one day be part of clojure"
14:47	amalloy	"...and which also live at github.com/clojure/*"
14:48	danielszmulewicz	amalloy: They're halfway there :-)
14:48	danielszmulewicz	(+ amalloy)
14:48	TimMc	Huh, the phrase "ships with Clojure" is ambiguous -- at first I read it as "includes Clojure as a dependency", not "is included in the Clojure jar".
14:48	danielszmulewicz	(inc amalloy)
14:48	lazybot	⇒ 137
14:48	TimMc	$karma TimMc
14:48	lazybot	TimMc has karma 60.
14:48	TimMc	Man, I've got some catching up to do.
14:49	danielszmulewicz	TimMc: Don't seat it. amalloy is a bot and everybody knows that.
14:49	danielszmulewicz	sweat
14:50	arrdem	no mere human could contribute so much to the channel :P
14:50	Klaufir	Whats the point of 'compare-and-set!' ?
14:51	amalloy	(inc TimMc) ; to get you started
14:51	lazybot	⇒ 61
14:51	{blake}	Aw, a pity inc!
14:51	Janiczek	:
14:51	Janiczek	:D
14:51	amalloy	Klaufir: mostly to implement swap! with. i think i saw one case where it made sense to use compare-and-set! over swap!, but mostly you can ignore it
14:51	TimMc	(dec TimMc) ;; I don't need your pity!
14:51	lazybot	You can't adjust your own karma.
14:51	TimMc	ha
14:51	amalloy	TimMc: largesse, not pity
14:51	Klaufir	amalloy: i see, thanks
14:52	Bronsa	amalloy: swap! is not implemented in terms of compare-and-swap! though
14:52	Bronsa	compare-and-set!*
14:52	amalloy	well, it could have been
14:52	amalloy	instead, it's implemented in java with an equivalent thingy, compareAndSet
14:53	Bronsa	amalloy: I don't think swap can be implemetned in terms of compare-and-set
14:53	amalloy	really?
14:53	TimMc	Other way around, right?
14:53	hiredman	there are CAS based algorithms where you want better control over the retries
14:53	puredanger	pretty much everything can be implemented in terms of CAS
14:54	hiredman	Bronsa: what makes you say that?
14:54	amalloy	(defn swap!' [a f] (let [old @a, new (f old)] (if (compare-and-set! a old new) new, (recur a f))))
14:54	TimMc	Or... thyey can be implemented in terms of each other.
14:54	hiredman	no
14:54	Bronsa	amalloy: hiredman uhm I'm definitely wrong
14:54	hiredman	swap! retries until the CAS succeeds
14:55	amalloy	TimMc: cas is more primitive. you can't really use swap to implementi t
14:55	hiredman	comare-and-swap! tries once and returns a boolean
14:55	TimMc	I mean at the CLJ layer, if you had one of swap! or compare-and-set! you could write the other without interop.
14:56	amalloy	i don't think that's true
14:56	hiredman	if you look at the literature for high performance queues, you often want to do a cas, and if the cas fails do some exponential back off, or switch to some some other strategy, which swap! doesn't let you do
14:57	TimMc	amalloy: It might require a second atom. :-P
14:57	amalloy	yes, then you could do it, but that's cheating
14:57	TimMc	Well...
14:58	amalloy	actually it's not entirely clear to me how you could do it with a second atom either. coordinating it is non-obvious, and atoms are terrible at coordination
14:59	amalloy	if you want a solution that works under concurrency
15:02	TimMc	amalloy: It's stupid, but I think it works: https://www.refheap.com/87845
15:03	amalloy	yeah, i was just in the middle of writing that myself. i was thinking it doesn't work because of retries, but of course you're resetting it each time you try
15:03	amalloy	so it's theoretically okay. but on the other hand it's not guaranteed to ever return, which is a problem that compare-and-set! is not supposed to have
15:04	TimMc	Yeah, that's the tricky bit. :-P
15:06	TimMc	Ha, interesting -- you can edit a refheap paste to be private, but not back again.
15:06	TimMc	which is to say it is now at https://www.refheap.com/b08ad02d8bd667abcf364ac65
15:07	tbaldrid_	amalloy: to the original question, I've used compare-and-set! when I want to return the old value, not the new one.
15:07	tbaldrid_	amalloy: acutally, every time I've wanted a return value from swap! it's always been the old one, and then I have to write swap-old!
15:07	TimMc	tbaldrid_: Might I suggest https://github.com/timmc/handy/blob/master/src/org/timmc/handy.clj#L129
15:08	amalloy	tbaldridge: really, every time? i find the old one useful about as often as the new one
15:08	TimMc	(split-atom! a identity f)
15:09	puredanger	feel free to vote on http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1454 re swap-old!
15:09	tbaldridge	puredanger: I think I did ;-)
15:09	puredanger	I know you did :)
15:09	tbaldridge	rofl
15:09	amalloy	eg, to reimplement memoize: (defn memoize [f] (let [a (atom {}] (fn [& args] (-> a (swap! update-in [args] (fn [old] (or old (delay (apply f args))))) (deref)))))
15:10	amalloy	tbaldridge: your comment may be the only time anyone has ever used nfirst
15:12	TimMc	I mostly use my fn for (split-atom! a first next)
15:12	seangrove	clojurescript: "extend is not currently implemented"
15:12	seangrove	>.<
15:14	tbaldridge	seangrove: seems like that would be a bit "fun" to implement in a AOT compiled language like ClojureScript
15:15	tbaldridge	seeing as it just takes a hashmap of function names to functions.
15:34	seangrove	Uhg, clojure.walk doesn't support records.
15:35	stuartsierra	seangrove: In 1.6 it does
15:36	seangrove	stuartsierra: Hrm, any idea how that translates to cljs?
15:36	stuartsierra	seangrove: no idea
15:36	stuartsierra	Does cljs even have clojure.walk?
15:36	seangrove	https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/src/cljs/clojure/walk.cljs
15:36	tbaldridge	seangrove: if you're using the latest CLJS that means port it yourself and send a patch to dnolen_ ;-)
15:37	seangrove	I suppose I could take a look at it
15:37	stuartsierra	It's easy
15:37	stuartsierra	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/commit/2224dbad5534ff23d3653b07d9dc0a60ba076dd7
15:38	seangrove	stuartsierra tbaldridge: Yeah, haven't contributed anything to cljs recently, would be good to bring cljs' clojure.walk up to date
15:45	dnolen_	seangrove: seems pretty straightforward to me, we have the IRecord marker protocol
15:45	seangrove	dnolen_: Yeah, hacking on it locally
15:45	seangrove	dnolen_: Should I use (satisfies? IRecord form) rather than (instance? IRecord form) ?
15:46	bbloom	seangrove: yes
15:48	dnolen_	seangrove: you should not consider instance? a thing :)
15:48	dnolen_	it's there internally for perf reasons
15:48	stuartsierra	dnolen_: Are you referring specifically to `instance?` in ClojureScript?
15:48	bbloom	it's also anti-modular to depend on concrete types in general
15:49	dnolen_	stuartsierra: yes
15:49	dnolen_	oh oops sorry
15:49	dnolen_	not enough coffee today
15:49	dnolen_	instance? is fine
15:50	dnolen_	was thinking about implements?
15:50	dnolen_	seangrove: instance? IRecord won't work :)
15:52	seangrove	dnolen_: Ok, satisfies? with stuartsierra's change looks like it works. Will check it out a bit more and submit a patch if so
15:54	dbasch	btw
15:54	dbasch	,(satisfies? 1 1)
15:54	clojurebot	#<NullPointerException java.lang.NullPointerException>
15:54	dbasch	^ could be better
15:54	stuartsierra	dbasch: patches welcome
15:55	dbasch	stuartsierra: will look into it
15:58	stuartsierra	dbasch: Ah yes, looks like http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1107 again.
15:58	dbasch	,(instance? nil nil) ;; stuartsierra is there a reason this behavior is desirable?
15:58	clojurebot	#<NullPointerException java.lang.NullPointerException>
15:58	dbasch	ah, ok
16:00	puredanger	dbasch: no, but it's a "breaking" change
16:01	puredanger	(although the broken things are already broken, imo)
16:01	dbasch	puredanger: oh well
16:02	stuartsierra	(instance? nil nil) throwing NPE does make sense: that's a bytecode op on the JVM.
16:03	stuartsierra	null has no type, therefore it is an error to ask for the type of null.
16:04	dbasch	stuartsierra: it does make sense, but does it make more sense than returning false-y?
16:05	stuartsierra	maybe
16:05	sveri	Hi, I am trying to use sente and I can establish a ws connection from client to server, however, when I look at the connected uids atom I only see this: {:ws #{nil}, :ajax #{}, :any #{nil}} and it looks like the connection is ok, but the uid is "nil" which is weird I guess, this is my server and client side code: http://pastebin.com/aahbRDQx
16:05	dbasch	the reason I brought it up is because it's why (statisfies? 1 1) throws the NPE according to the (old) sources I'm looking at
16:07	dbasch	ah, it's not that
16:08	dbasch	I think it's this line https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/ef2e762e21a817305314ed10bc33505bed6874a5/src/clj/clojure/core_deftype.clj#L497
16:23	tbaldridge	dbasch: yeah, the first argument is supposed to be a protocol. You're handing it a integer, thus by the laws of Clojure anything can happen
16:24	dbasch	tbaldridge: do you think it would be worth checking to return a more meaningful error instead of an NPE?
16:24	arrdem	{:pre [(protocol? ...)]}
16:24	tbaldridge	dbasch: welcome to clojure.....
16:25	dbasch	(inc arrdem)
16:25	lazybot	⇒ 32
16:25	tbaldridge	dbasch: that requires a check at the invocation of every call to satisfies. Good luck getting that patch approved.
16:26	stuartsierra	I think it's doable as a fall-through case without adding an additional check at the beginning.
16:28	amalloy	stuartsierra: maybe just catch the exception that is actually produced and wrap it in something nicer? iirc a try/catch costs basically nothing if no exception happens, right?
16:29	stuartsierra	amalloy: probably not needed
16:30	arrdem	amalloy: couldn't that obscure other errors?
16:30	amalloy	arrdem: in satisfies? what other error could there be?
16:31	amalloy	true, false, what-the-hell-is-this-i-wanted-a-protocol are the only three reasonable outcomes
16:31	arrdem	heh
16:31	arrdem	yeah looking at this I don't see another way to make it explode right off
16:31	dbasch	I just hate NPEs
16:32	arrdem	tbaldridge: I did ultimately manage to rebind ns... had to write my own alter-var-root based with-macro-redefs because with-redefs kills the macro metadata and breaks everything
16:32	amalloy	googled around a bit, and it looks like try/catch is free if nothing is thrown, except that it adds bytecode, and can prevent some optimizations that assume linear control flow
16:32	{blake}	Is there are more succinct way of saying "if (nil? %1) (list %2) (cons %2 %1))"?
16:33	tbaldridge	arrdem: lol yeah, I forgot there's a macro flag on vars
16:33	amalloy	{blake}: #(cons %2 %1)
16:33	amalloy	the if is pointless
16:33	arrdem	tbaldridge: the fun bit is that using with-redefs on a macro flagged var permanently kills the macro flag, which makes code reloading totally horked :D
16:34	tbaldridge	arrdem: I bet you could do some reflection black magic....
16:34	{blake}	amalloy, Thanks. Thought I tried that but I must've gotten it wrong.
16:34	{blake}	(inc amalloy)
16:34	lazybot	⇒ 138
16:34	tbaldridge	arrdem: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1555658/is-it-possible-in-java-to-access-private-fields-via-reflection
16:34	{blake}	Sorry, TimMc
16:35	arrdem	tbaldridge: sure, but why bother. this works a treat. https://www.refheap.com/87848
16:35	dbasch	OTOH if someone is using protocols (which is not a beginner feature) perhaps an NPE is not that horrible
16:40	TimMc	amalloy: I recently learned that using a finally clause causes code to be duplicated for each catch clause. It's interesting that they chose that instead of using more complicated gotos.
16:41	TimMc	I'm now imagining some absolutely horrifying situation where a cosmic ray alters the in-memory code for one copy but not another and is even more impossible to debug. :-P
16:41	puredanger	there have been a couple strategies used for try/catch/finally bytecode over the years
16:41	puredanger	I think it was jdk 6 where it last changed significantly
16:42	tbaldridge	I know try is mostly free in Java, but is it in clojure? Try bodies are anonymous functions last I checked
16:43	Jaood	is there a way to clear/clean the user ns in the repl without restarting it?
16:44	amalloy	i don't think that's true, tbaldridge
16:44	puredanger	tbaldridge: handwave handwave JIT JIT handwave
16:44	amalloy	the body of a try is parsed as a BodyExpr, which emits as just a bunch of statements
16:44	Bronsa	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Compiler.java#L2161-L2162
16:45	dbasch	Jaood: you mean something like this? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3636364/can-i-clean-the-repl
16:45	amalloy	dangit! snuck that in there, apparently. good eyes, Bronsa
16:46	tbaldridge	puredanger: it'd be a interesting thing to try sometime, my repl experiments say no, but yes, jit stuff
16:47	amalloy	can someone explain to me what the various contexts in the compiler mean? i've never really been able to work that one out. like i've seen EXPRESSION and EVAL before, but don't remember seeing RETURN; and anyway i don't know what the others really mean
16:47	Bronsa	amalloy: return means the expression is in return position
16:47	Bronsa	as opposed to statement
16:47	Bronsa	(do 1 2 3)
16:48	Bronsa	1 2 statement, 3 return
16:48	Jaood	dbasch: yeah, thanks
16:48	Bronsa	amalloy: expression is non return, non statement
16:48	Bronsa	amalloy: meaning the expression value is used but it's not in return position. if it's a statement the return value can be discarded
16:49	Bronsa	amalloy: eval is this weird context that's somewhat like expression but used when the code is loaded via eval (usually in the repl)
16:50	amalloy	Bronsa: when is an expression's value used but not in return position?
16:50	Bronsa	amalloy: in a binding for example
16:50	Bronsa	(let [a 1] 2)
16:50	Bronsa	1 is an expr
16:50	Bronsa	2 is return
16:52	amalloy	because it's...returning from the let expr? but that's not necessarily returning from the whole function, right? like, in (let [x (let [a 1] 2)] 3), 1 and 2 are both used but not returned
16:52	amalloy	but 2 is still in RETURN position because it's being returned from the letexpr, whereas there's no expr that 1 is returned from
16:52	amalloy	(aside from the ConstExpr that emits it?)
16:54	Bronsa	amalloy: so, wherever you can put a recur, that's a return, if the expression is in do and is not the last expression in that do (do [this]* x), it's a statement, otherwise it's either expression or eval
16:55	Bronsa	in your example 2 has a return ctx, yes
16:56	Bronsa	amalloy: no actually it's an expr. it has to be in a return position of a fn or a loop to be a return
16:57	amalloy	i see. so return is like "this would be in tail position if this were the top-level expr of a loop". so the 2 could be in return context, except that it's being parsed as part of a try that's in eval context?
16:57	amalloy	er, part of a let-binding
16:57	bracki	How do I turn a java.io.Outputstream into a ring {:body stream} response?
16:58	Bronsa	amalloy: that should be correct, yes
16:59	technomancy	bracki: you can copy it to a ByteArray and then make a ByteArrayInputStream
16:59	Bronsa	amalloy: the last expression in a "block" (let/letfn/..) takes the context of the "block"
17:00	Bronsa	so if the let is in return position (tail-call of a fn/loop/method body) then the expression in tail position in the let body will have return ctx
17:02	Bronsa	amalloy: I suck at explaining it but it's really easy to understand if you play a bit with it, analyze some expressions with t.a.j and look at their (-> ast :env :context) and it'll be clear
17:03	amalloy	yeah, i think i get it, Bronsa
17:04	amalloy	technomancy: gross
17:04	amalloy	use a pipe; there's one helpfully included in compojure
17:05	amalloy	or maybe ring. i'm never quite sure
17:05	technomancy	sure, provided you have control over that
17:05	bracki	technomancy: Like here http://data-sorcery.org/2009/11/29/incanter-webapp/?
17:06	atyz	Hey all... what would happen if you spawned a lot of futures (blocking calls lasting ~1 second each) then enver defererenced them
17:06	atyz	*never
17:06	amalloy	technomancy: huh? control over what?
17:06	turbofail	atyz: a future runs whether you dereference it or not
17:07	bracki	There's this https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure/BZxYCQQJtV8 and this https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring/blob/bc4ddda43e68cc2117f73306d936555ac870239b/ring-core/src/ring/util/io.clj#L11
17:07	turbofail	atyz: there's a limited thread pool for running them
17:07	bracki	I don't understand the signature of piped-input-stram
17:07	amalloy	bracki: https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring/blob/bc4ddda43e68cc2117f73306d936555ac870239b/ring-core/src/ring/util/io.clj#L11
17:07	puredanger	turbofail: it's not limited
17:08	amalloy	you can't really convert an output stream to an input stream, bracki. it doesn't make sense, because neither of those actually stores data
17:08	atyz	turbofail: I think futures are pulling from an unbound pool
17:08	amalloy	if you have an output stream, and you want writes to it to be sent out over ring, that's what piped-input-stream is for
17:09	atyz	Basically after a while my cpu usage hits 100% and never comes down. I think this could be due to me abusing futures, is this at all possible?
17:09	bracki	But how?
17:09	dbasch	bracki: what is your output stream? where does it come from?
17:09	amalloy	but you still have to actually do those writes, so the idea is (let [response (piped-input-stream (fn [out] (.write out "hello!")))] {:status 200 :body response})
17:10	bracki	I want to use http://people.apache.org/~thejas/thrift-0.9/javadoc/org/apache/thrift/transport/TIOStreamTransport.html
17:10	bracki	So I'm not in control of the writing to the outputstream...
17:10	turbofail	oh hm. wonder why i thought it was bounded
17:10	puredanger	atyz: do a thread dump - who's doing the work?
17:11	puredanger	turbofail: the agent send pool is bounded
17:11	bracki	So I guess what technomancy said applies. Hard to wrap that thing in a function...
17:12	puredanger	turbofail: the send-off and future pool (same pool) is a cached thread pool
17:12	atyz	puredanger: I did a thread dump (https://www.refheap.com/87785) but it looks similar to a new fresh healthy machine and the thread counts weren't all that different
17:12	turbofail	puredanger: ah, the send-pool must have been what i was thinking of
17:13	puredanger	atyz: none of your threads are doing anything. I don't believe your cpu usage is coming from this process :)
17:13	atyz	puredanger: that is really sad news. could you think of anything else that could cause this?
17:13	dbasch	bracki: it's pretty easy to wrap that in a function, but what do you mean you're not in control of the writing to the output stream?
17:13	puredanger	why do you think it's this process?
17:14	atyz	even once the machine is pulled from the LB it continues to stay at 100% utilization
17:14	dbasch	bracki: I mean, you're writing thrift to an outputstream that you gave that class
17:14	atyz	puredanger: my thinking is that there were a bunch of theads getting backed up (they are blocking calls) and for some reason not being killed off
17:14	TimMc	atyz: Good question -- you have confirmed that it's the JVM that's eating the CPU?
17:15	puredanger	atyz: there are a few threads reading/waiting on sockets - it's possible one of those is reading vast quantities of stuff in a tight loop, but I'd still guess that's IO bound, not CPU bound
17:15	puredanger	atyz: blocking threads won't show up as cpu utilization
17:15	atyz	TimMc: I have confirmed that it is the JVM eating the cpu
17:15	TimMc	OK. :-)
17:16	bracki	dbasch: I'm not doing the write but some Java class using this https://github.com/apache/thrift/blob/38b453be5a015b7aaefcd91b4e261e53e0e211c2/lib/java/src/org/apache/thrift/transport/TIOStreamTransport.java#L140
17:16	dbasch	bracki: ok, but where is it writing to?
17:16	bracki	Basically I have no control over when (.write stream) is being called
17:16	bracki	in .write
17:17	atyz	puredanger: if that were the case I would expect the cpu utilization to come down after some time?
17:17	puredanger	atyz: you could connect with jvisualvm or something like that - it can show you what threads are doing
17:17	atyz	Generally the amount of data would be a couple kb at most
17:17	dbasch	bracki: I got that, but what is the output stream?
17:17	atyz	(thats even a stretch)
17:18	amalloy	atyz: i'm with puredanger, your jvm isn't doing anything at all. the only way it could be burning through cpu would be like garbage collection
17:18	bracki	dbasch: Something I'm passing in here https://github.com/apache/thrift/blob/56a648d0ffc370123c4f1047b72d0d80080a1d9b/lib/java/src/org/apache/thrift/TBaseProcessor.java#L26
17:19	atyz	amalloy: if it were garbage collection, how would I confirm that?
17:19	puredanger	atyz: generally I find if my system is violating my assumptions then one of my assumptions is probably wrong :)
17:19	atyz	And why would it max my cpu indefinitely
17:19	atyz	puredanger: I'm sure that I'm wrong in many ways here. Just confused and grasping at straws
17:19	puredanger	atyz: you would see the GC threads in the thread dump. jvisualvm / jconsole can also show you gc activity
17:20	amalloy	puredanger: really? i don't recall seeing a gc thread in that list before, like ever
17:21	puredanger	amalloy: maybe I'm having flashbacks to an earlier time :)
17:21	dbasch	bracki: I guess my question is: you're writing to some place. What is that place? The network? A file? A Byte array?
17:21	amalloy	puredanger: i could be wrong. i use yourkit much more than jstack, and while its thread dumps look just like these it's possible it's filtering out some threads i guess
17:22	atyz	OK so just to dispell my theory completely, having many calls spawned by futures would not exhibit the behavior i'm seeing here?
17:22	bracki	dbasch: I guess a bytearray
17:22	puredanger	atyz: I don't see anything in this stack that makes me think it's related to futures.
17:23	puredanger	atyz: I don't even see anything using cpu
17:23	atyz	puredanger: is it possible thats because I didn't run it for more than a second or two?
17:23	danielsz`	I want to split a sequence of variable length in three parts, with the last part having the possible remainder. Think columns in a table. What would be the idiomatic way to achieve this?
17:23	amalloy	three equal parts, with leftovers appearing in the third?
17:24	danielsz`	amalloy: yes
17:24	dbasch	bracki: then do exactly what technomancy said: (.toByteArray os) and then create a ByteArrayInputStream from that
17:25	amalloy	https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/flatland/useful/seq.clj#L54 does roughly that, except it looks like the excess goes into the first few rather than the last one
17:25	puredanger	atyz: I don't think I understand what you're doing enough to answer that.
17:27	dbasch	danielsz`: you can use partition-all and then concatenate the last two things
17:27	danielsz`	amalloy: Here's my overkill solution: I partition my sequence, put it in matrix, and take the columns. I figured there must be a simpler way (with built-in fns). But it's not that straightforward as I had thought. At least I can't figure it out,
17:28	danielsz`	alas.
17:28	dbasch	danielsz`: e.g. if you have 20 columns you'll end up with 6-6-6-2
17:28	atyz	puredanger: thats fair, I'll take a look into the garbage collection
17:28	dbasch	danielsz`: concatenate the last two and you'll have 6-6-8
17:28	puredanger	just turn on -verbose:gc
17:29	atyz	Can you think of anything in particular I shoudl look out for?
17:29	danielsz`	dbasch: interesting...
17:29	hiredman	the threads are all blocked in that dump, and if you take another dump they will likelly show as blocked again, so the question is, are they actually blocked, or are they flipping back and forth between blocked (waiting on some thing from a queue) and running, the high cpu usage would seem to indicate the switching back and forth, what kind of logging do you have?
17:30	atyz	hiredman: mostly just request/response logging
17:30	atyz	Nothing actually looking at the jvm or its processes
17:31	hiredman	are all the threads doing stuff with datomic?
17:31	puredanger	datomic itself has a lot of logging you can turn on, no idea if that would help here
17:32	atyz	hiredman: I don't think they would be
17:32	atyz	I'm sshing into a heatlthy machine to see what the thread dump looks like
17:32	amalloy	that's a cute way to do it, dbasch
17:33	hiredman	if datomic reads data in some kind of single threaded fashion, so all your threads are communicating with the datomic io thread via queues you might see something like this, but that is a stretch
17:35	atyz	https://www.refheap.com/87850
17:36	atyz	hiredman: on an inactive machine, they are blocked as well
17:37	puredanger	atyz: when you say you just run it for a second or two, do you mean you start the jvm, see 100% cpu, then kill it? if so, what happens if you let it run?
17:38	atyz	puredanger: Sorry, i meant to say I killed the thread-dump prematurely
17:38	puredanger	well don't do that :)
17:38	arohner	what is the preferred logging lib to use w/ tools.logging?
17:38	puredanger	arohner: prob log4j or slf4j over log4j
17:38	arohner	thanks
17:39	atyz	Before I killed the threaddump. I started teh machine, it was put into the LB. It was used for 2 hours, I pulled it out of the LB (when it was at 100% utilization) and it stayed at 100% utilization for the next 6 hours. At which point it I killed it
17:39	atyz	I currently don't have any machines at 100% utilization because we just did a deploy and there is very little usage
17:40	puredanger	so you need a full thread dump when it's at 100% utilization. otherwise, you can't know what's actually using cpu at that time
17:41	atyz	But on monday I am very certain that there will be a few at 100%
17:43	atyz	puredanger: is there something I should be looking at in the thread-dump that woudl indicate that its the thread that would be using my cpu?
17:43	puredanger	atyz: it will be RUNNING or RUNNABLE (can't remember which)
17:44	atyz	So if the thread-dump doesn't say either ofthose - the cpu usage is not from any of those threads
17:44	atyz	And it would be the GC, possibly?
17:46	puredanger	well, it's not the BLOCKED threads. you had a few in IN_NATIVE which could theoretically be doing something but are usually IO waiting. could be GC. using gc logging should make that obvious or just connect with one of the jvm tools and see where the pools are.
17:48	atyz	Ok, I'll give it a look when I have another machine thats stuck at 100% utilization. thank you puredanger amalloy and hiredman
17:49	puredanger	happy hunting! :)
17:50	atyz	haha, I wouldn't say happy. I hate it when computers make me feel dumb :P
17:50	TimMc	atyz: Is it throughly enough wedged that you can't attach a liverepl?
17:50	cbp	/
17:51	atyz	TimMc: I haven't tried that. they are deployed as jars
17:52	atyz	And don't have access to the box in that way.
17:52	atyz	That said, despite being at 100% it still seems fairly responsive
17:53	rasmusto_	is there something special I have to do to get leiningen to extract/use native dependencies?
17:54	technomancy	rasmusto_: if the native deps have been packaged for use with lein, there's nothing to do
17:55	rasmusto_	technomancy: not sure if they have. Trying to use lwjgl-platform-2.8.4-natives-windows.jar
17:55	technomancy	unlikely then
17:55	technomancy	unfortunately the docs for that are pretty much crap
17:55	technomancy	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/1385
17:56	TimMc	atyz: liverepl attaches to a running JVM whether it has Clojure in it or not. (Unfortunately, it leaks a classloader each time, so you don't want to do it a lot.)
17:57	technomancy	protip: don't think of it as crap documentation, think of it as a pull request opportunity
17:58	rasmusto_	technomancy: if I add an explicit dep for [org.lwjgl.lwjgl/lwjgl-platform "2.8.4" :classifier "natives-windows"] it'll pull the jar down, I guess I can see about extracting it somehow
17:59	aperiodic	last time I made an artifact to be consumed as a native dependency I remember writing a bash script that did manual jar surgery
17:59	rasmusto_	powershell, here I come
17:59	technomancy	rasmusto_: if the files that need extracting are under a consistent prefix, :native-prefix "natives/" in the dep vector might do it?
18:01	rasmusto_	technomancy: the dlls are just in the root of the *-platform.jar
18:01	technomancy	rasmusto_: maybe just :native-prefix "" then?
18:02	rasmusto_	kk, will try
18:02	rasmusto_	technomancy: !! the exception changed. I think that worked
18:02	danielsz`	If there is a consensus that wholesale imports with :use in the namespace declaration is evil, how come the most respected libraries instruct users to do exaclty that? I've seen it three times in a row today. Incanter, core.matrix and ring or ring related. Where is our leadership?
18:03	atyz	TimMc: https://github.com/djpowell/liverepl <--- That?
18:03	technomancy	danielsz`: I'm fairly suspicious of incanter in general
18:04	technomancy	have run into a number of poor API decisions there, primarily around using macros for no reason
18:04	amalloy	incanter is like a suuuuuuuper old project
18:05	technomancy	danielsz`: also there's a big difference between calling the use function directly and putting a :use clause in your ns form
18:05	amalloy	the author almost has to have been new to clojure when he started, since clojure was new. so probably he's made some poor decisions, in addition to following things that were community standards at the time but have since changed
18:07	TimMc	atyz: That's the one. We usually kill any host we use it on shortly afterwards as a best practice because of the classloader leakage, but it's hella useful for diagnosis or even hotpatching.
18:07	TimMc	Unfortunately it doesn't have line editing, IIRC.
18:07	danielsz`	amalloy: core.matrix is halfway in the standard library! They should know better.
18:07	technomancy	danielsz`: being a contrib project is entirely a political thing; it doesn't say anything about the code itself
18:08	atyz	TimMc: The machine is basically dead anyway so I'll give it a try! Thank you :)
18:08	atyz	I'm going to go home now, enjoy your night!
18:08	technomancy	danielsz`: if anything it means the docs are less likely to be accurate, because they can't take pull requests
18:08	TimMc	same here, you too
18:08	technomancy	for quick fixes like this
18:09	danielsz`	technomancy: What is a use case of a direct use of the use function (except in the README to make a point)?
18:09	technomancy	danielsz`: repl exploration
18:10	danielsz`	technomancy: oh yes, of course.
18:10	technomancy	it's faster to type =)
18:10	danielsz`	James Reeves definitely knows better. I'll tell him when I get the chance.
18:13	ishanc	Is it possible to gen-class clojure code and use it from java code when both the java and clojure code reside in the same maven project
18:13	ishanc	I am using the clojure-maven-plugin and calling java from clojure works fine, but not the other way around
18:18	bracki	What does this mean? https://github.com/xsc/thrift-clj/blob/master/src/thrift_clj/client.clj#L29
18:18	bracki	What is the signature?
18:19	cbp	bracki: what signature? {:keys [protocol]} ?
18:19	bracki	i'm talking abot the & :keys stuff
18:19	cbp	it means you can call that function like (connect! client-class transport :protocol whatever)
18:19	rasmusto_	,(let [{:keys [a b c]} {:a 1 :b 2 :c nil}] [a b c])
18:19	clojurebot	[1 2 nil]
18:19	cbp	bracki: its map destructuring
18:20	cbp	bracki: the & means it groups every arg after it and then the {:keys } stuff means it destructures it as a map
18:21	bracki	and the [protocol] part?
18:22	gfredericks	,(let [[a b & {:keys [c d]}] [1 2 :e :e :d :d :c :c]] [a b c d])
18:22	clojurebot	[1 2 :c :d]
18:22	gfredericks	bracki: that means the only key it recognizes is :protocol
18:23	danielsz`	(inc amalloy)
18:23	lazybot	⇒ 139
18:23	danielsz`	That's for the slice function.
18:23	gfredericks	bracki: i.e., you could call this function like (connect! my-client-class my-transport :protocol my-protocol)
18:23	gfredericks	or (connect! my-client-class my-transport)
18:24	bracki	tried that but doesn't work...
18:24	cbp	bracki: it means it's assigning the key :protocol (hence the :keys part) to the name 'protocol'
18:24	radix	I wonder why they didn't just have two different signatures, with with a protocol argument and one without
18:24	cbp	the value of the key i mean
18:24	radix	s/with with/one with/
18:24	gfredericks	bracki: in what way did it not work?
18:25	gfredericks	radix: easier to add more options later?
18:25	radix	yeah, maybe that.
18:25	cbp	radix: i guess they thought it would be more explicit to force the user to use the keyword
18:25	cbp	:-P
18:25	rplaca	radix: also folks find that keywords are better at documenting how variable args are used, if they really are optional
18:26	rplaca	which is basically what cbp said :)
18:27	whodidthis	maybe would be easier to have a map for the opts
18:27	bracki	gfredericks: it always falls throught to https://github.com/xsc/thrift-clj/blob/master/src/thrift_clj/client.clj#L23
18:29	gfredericks	bracki: so what's the first arg you're passing to connect!?
18:29	bracki	Oh noes, overwritten import.
18:29	bracki	Everything is fine.
18:29	bracki	But thanks for the destructuring bit
18:35	gfredericks	I am having some issue with clojure.test and records/protocols
18:35	gfredericks	something to do with the loading-everything-twice tactic I bet
18:35	cbp	what's up with cider now starting at some 'clojure.test.mode' namespace?
18:35	gfredericks	specifically a record claimed to not satisfy the protocol when it certainly should
18:36	cbp	which, much to my dismay, does not have clojure.repl use'd
18:37	hiredman	cider hates the living
18:39	gfredericks	cbp: I've given up on using things; switched to (ns .)
18:39	hiredman	gfredericks: throw in some aot'ing and you are totally screwed
18:39	gfredericks	hiredman: I'm pretty sure I can avoid that thankfully
18:40	hiredman	in theory if you are just loading everything twice you should be fine, but if you are doing anything at all between the reloads everything will likely break
18:41	hiredman	if you miss a reload, things will break, if you reload in the wrong order, things will break
18:42	gfredericks	I'm certainly not doing anything other than using normal requires
18:43	gfredericks	maybe it's time to bisect my code until I can isolate it
18:45	hiredman	ah, but do you have :reload in your requires?
18:45	gfredericks	nope
18:45	gfredericks	that would be weird
18:45	hiredman	lein used to stick :reloads in the requires for test namespaces
18:45	gfredericks	O_O
18:45	hiredman	for reasons
18:45	abp	help, i'm bleeding clojure for hours now
18:46	rasmusto_	whatas wrong
18:46	cbp	he's bleeding clojure
18:46	hiredman	when I slip shaving parens get everywhere
18:46	abp	it feels so exciting
18:47	rasmusto_	hiredman: like ~@?
18:49	abp	cut down maintenance?
18:50	gfredericks	no, figure out why clojure no work
18:51	abp	duh
18:53	amalloy	i like to imagine maintenance is the name of a really old tree in abp's yard
18:57	TimMc	noooo, don't cut it down!
18:58	arohner	has anyone seen 'java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: clojure/tools/reader/reader_types/Reader' when AOT'ing?
18:59	Janiczek	any thoughts on the coding style / where it's not idiomatic etc. of https://github.com/Janiczek/cook ? (maybe play with the demo first: http://janiczek.github.io/cook/ - it's short but with a bit of reading)
19:00	cbp	I have in cljs (:require [goog.date.DateRange :as DateRange]) and (:import [goog.date DateRange]) and other such things. I'm not sure im doing this right
19:03	danielsz`	(inc hiredman)
19:03	lazybot	⇒ 49
19:03	danielsz`	That's for the comment on Cider.
19:03	danielsz`	It really does hate the living.
19:03	amalloy	cbp: if you have both of this things and others beside it's pretty likely you're not doing it right
19:04	amalloy	probably you want only one such thing
19:04	cbp	and.. it's probably wrong since my repl doesn't like it even though the browser does
19:05	gfredericks	okay so here's my setup
19:05	cbp	i guess the answer is to remove the one in the require and switch to DateRange.foo instead of DateRange/foo
19:05	gfredericks	I have three namespaces: protocol, record, and test
19:05	gfredericks	protocol defines a protocol
19:05	gfredericks	record defines a record that implements the protocol
19:06	gfredericks	(and requires the protocol namespace of course)
19:06	gfredericks	the test namespace requires both, and the test creates an instance of the record and calls the protocol fn with it
19:06	gfredericks	and I get an implementation error
19:06	gfredericks	but only with `lein test`
19:06	gfredericks	if I run `lein test :only the-test-ns` then it passes
19:08	cbp	actually nevermind that was due to my namespace declaration in the repl not reloading or something
19:08	amalloy	cbp: Foo.bar is kinda like an escape hatch into plain old js; you shouldn't need to use it
19:09	abp	amalloy: test-maintenance can be a problem. for example testing every single query of an application while also testing the whole api via declarative specs
19:10	amalloy	gfredericks: try putting a (println "compiling x") in each of your namespaces, to see it get double-compiled?
19:10	gfredericks	amalloy: why haven't I done that yet
19:10	cbp	amalloy: but then I need to do (DateRange. x y) (DateRange/foo) and DateRange/some-value, and neither import nor require alone allow me to do all of those
19:11	gfredericks	amalloy: the compile order in the bad case is protocol->record->protocol->test
19:11	gfredericks	in the good case, protocol->record->test
19:11	gfredericks	SO THIS IS GREAT
19:13	cbp	er actually import might
19:13	cbp	le sighs
19:17	amalloy	interesting, gfredericks. are you sure your tests aren't doing anything weird?
19:17	amalloy	or your ns forms?
19:17	amalloy	i say this, as if it were at all useful as a suggestion
19:18	gfredericks	amalloy: the weirdest thing is that the protocol and records are in test namespaces rather than src namespaces
19:18	gfredericks	amalloy: my guess is that I didn't reproduce due to nondeterministic namespace ordering?
19:18	technomancy	gfredericks: maybe try putting them in :source-paths in the :dev profile
19:18	technomancy	instead of in test/
19:19	gfredericks	technomancy: you're suggesting that test helpers should be separate from the for-realsies-tests?
19:20	cbp	in which i deref an atom and get a core.async exception
19:20	cbp	wat
19:20	technomancy	gfredericks: not sure whether that's a general-purpose suggestion or a "this might help in this particular case" suggestion, but yeah
19:21	gfredericks	technomancy: please stay on the line while I try this and a customer service representative will be with you as soon as possible
19:21	technomancy	gfredericks: only if there's decent hold music
19:22	noncom	is there any existing library to get images from google image search ?
19:22	danielsz`	technomancy: I meant to ask you: after writing OCaml code on Grenchman, did you have a moment when you said to yourself, this is it, I'm not going back to Clojure?
19:22	amalloy	cbp: i don't think you can get an exception from derefing an atom, in clojure or clojurescript. you could get one from attempting to print the result, or really do anything at all with it
19:23	gfredericks	technomancy: the hold music will be good but it will be interrupted every 47 seconds for a message about how super excited we are to have you as a customer
19:23	noncom	i suppose it is possible with clj-http + some stuff, but probably there is a ready solution
19:23	cbp	amalloy: yes from printing
19:23	amalloy	gfredericks: i hate you now
19:23	gfredericks	amalloy: because of how much I appreciate you as a customer?
19:24	gfredericks	technomancy: it worked
19:24	gfredericks	why do we even need the :reload?
19:24	technomancy	gfredericks: for folks with resident project JVMs
19:25	gfredericks	O_O_O
19:25	amalloy	gfredericks: technomancy runs his tests through swank or cider or whatever, not lein test
19:25	technomancy	like if you keep your process up in between task runs
19:25	technomancy	:eval-in :nrepl, ccw, grenchman, etc
19:26	gfredericks	amalloy: how do I install swank or cider or whatever on my jenkins
19:26	amalloy	prolly apt-get. the answer to everything
19:26	gfredericks	where is gtrak
19:26	technomancy	danielsz`: haha, not really. OCaml and Clojure are very complementary.
19:26	cbp	brushing up on his coffeescript
19:27	technomancy	danielsz`: it definitely made me 10x more frustrated at clojure's sloppy nil handling though
19:27	technomancy	"embrace the platform" is a two-edged sword, as we all know
19:28	amalloy	technomancy: but nils are awesome! 10x zero frustration is still zero!
19:28	technomancy	http://p.hagelb.org/get-out.gif
19:28	gfredericks	lin is an object that signifies the presence of a value; it is always truthy
19:29	gfredericks	the SQL equivalent is called LLUN, and it has the property that LUNN = x is always true
19:29	gfredericks	s/LUNN/LLUN/
19:29	aperiodic	even if x is NULL?
19:29	danielsz`	technomancy: Interesting. I thought there was solace in a native environment vs the hosted one of Clojure (with so many levels of indirectness). And I thought maybe type-oriented development would be addictive. And also more principled design instead of the hackinesss of meta-programming, but maybe all of those are also seductive in their own right.
19:30	gfredericks	aperiodic: don't do that
19:30	technomancy	danielsz`: it also made me realize how little I care about homoiconicity
19:30	gfredericks	technomancy: but but paredit!
19:30	amalloy	aperiodic: testing NULL==LLUN is defined to uninstall your database server
19:30	hiredman	gfredericks: I jave a jenkins plugin that launches an nrepl repl inside the jenkins jvm
19:30	technomancy	danielsz`: the main pain point with ocaml syntax is its precedence rules, not the lack of macros
19:31	rasmusto_	hmm, I have to do a lein clean && lein deps to get my target/native stuff to show up
19:31	hiredman	it was super painful
19:31	hiredman	the insides of jenkins are terrible
19:31	amalloy	rasmusto_: everytime you run one of those commands god kills a kitten
19:31	gfredericks	the insides of _______ are pretty bad too
19:32	technomancy	danielsz`: avoiding the large runtime just means you can apply it to a different class of problems. better at small utilities but worse at long-running servers, etc.
19:32	hiredman	https://github.com/hiredman/jenkins-clojure-injector/blob/master/src/leiningen/jpi.clj
19:32	amalloy	technomancy: i had to run `lein clean && lein deps` a few weeks ago, but this was on lein 1.6 and so i didn't think you'd appreciate the bug report
19:32	technomancy	amalloy: I forgive you.
19:33	rasmusto_	part of my confusion is trying to deal with a project that has a lot of native stuff and non-specific dependencies
19:33	rasmusto_	the leiningen stuff is very usable so far, thanks for the support technomancy
19:33	technomancy	rasmusto_: cool
19:33	technomancy	native code is definitely a weak point right now since no one understands how it works
19:35	danielsz`	technomancy: Maybe if you had written Grenchman in Haskell where precedence rules are configurable we would have lost you for good :-)
19:35	technomancy	danielsz`: lost me to raving lunacy, probably
19:36	arrdem	technomancy: what, you aren't raving already? you built a build tool ffs
19:36	technomancy	debatable
19:36	turbofail	hm. when i have to switch between ruby and clojure i find homoiconicity to be a huge deal
19:37	turbofail	but perhaps ocaml is different
19:37	technomancy	turbofail: homoiconicity or clarity?
19:37	turbofail	both
19:37	technomancy	clojure achieves clarity/consistency through homoiconicity I would say
19:37	turbofail	i really miss being able to use paredit commands for shuffling my code around
19:37	technomancy	ruby fairs to achieve clarity most of the time, and ocaml achieves it through other means
19:38	technomancy	also, you can do C-M-k (kill expression at point) without paredit, which goes a long way
19:38	technomancy	so actually bitemyapp threatened to port grenchman to haskell
19:38	turbofail	ha
19:38	technomancy	haha "Derelict repo, abandoned because I have no interest in making tools for the Clojure community."
19:39	technomancy	cute
19:39	arrdem	yeah... pls flounce more
19:39	technomancy	https://github.com/bitemyapp/grom
19:39	danielsz`	is it only me or this place feels less threatening since bitemyapp left?
19:40	aperiodic	it's not just you
19:40	arrdem	not just you... it's been an improvement since blocking him on twitter as well..
19:41	arrdem	last time we met in person he had some one-liner about how he's keeping a scorecard for how many blocks he can accumulate from clojure users...
19:41	danielsz`	amazing how 1 person can set a general mood.
19:41	technomancy	how is this an improvement? https://github.com/bitemyapp/grom/blob/master/src/Main.hs#L29 over https://github.com/technomancy/grenchman/blob/master/grench.ml#L35
19:42	turbofail	hm. how does C-M-k work in ocaml? isn't the entire notion of "next sexp" kind of fuzzy?
19:42	technomancy	turbofail: not at all; it's quite clear
19:43	ttasterisco	so what's the story behind bitemyapp? met him once last year at a clj meetup, he sounded peaceful. fast forward a few months and he moved to haskell and all I saw was some rages at clojure?
19:43	danielsz`	turbofail: Emacs adjusts the meaning of "expression at point" based on context.
19:43	technomancy	at least, emacs is smart enough to figure it out consistently
19:44	amalloy	ttasterisco: from what i understand he's a pretty mellow guy in person. in #clojure, he was abrasive
19:44	arrdem	amalloy: meh... he's way more abrasive online, but he's not exactly mellow in person either
19:44	technomancy	he's out to prove how right slash smart he is
19:45	danielsz`	ttasterisco: He's just an assertive and opinionated person. He discovered Haskell and preaches it now. If you don't mind his style, use it to your benefit. Everybody wins at learning Haskell.
19:45	technomancy	one of my favourite things about OCaml is how it doesn't attract that kind of person
19:46	amalloy	haskell is pretty cool. it's just, knowing that doesn't have to correlate with being a jerk. i don't think haskell was really that important in his decision to leave
19:46	gfredericks	camel-like personalities
19:46	amalloy	technomancy: what is List.tl? clojure.core/rest?
19:46	danielsz`	Haskell are known to be a peaceful bunch too. Bitemyapp is not representative of Haskell any more than he was of Clojure.
19:47	technomancy	amalloy: yeah
19:47	turbofail	technomancy: so when you have something like "\|List.fold_left (+) 0 xs", what's the "next sexp"?
19:47	turbofail	in clojure, depending on where i put the point, the next sexp could be `fold-left', or it could be the whole `(fold-left ...) thing
19:48	turbofail	but it doesn't seem like i have those options here
19:48	technomancy	turbofail: probably the whole thing. it's been almost a year since I was using it though.
19:48	turbofail	hm
19:50	amalloy	i would have guessed List.fold_left is the next sexp, because in that world you can get the whole thing if you want, via M-4 C-M-k
19:50	technomancy	kinda want to get back into it, but hard to justify when the only clojure I write is lein itself
19:51	technomancy	I really miss option types and pattern matching
19:52	danielsz`	technomancy: Exactly.
19:53	danielsz`	technomancy: I saw this earlier today. I haven't read it seriously though: http://brehaut.net/blog/2011/error_monads
19:53	technomancy	danielsz`: option types without pattern matching isn't really worth the trouble though
19:54	danielsz`	technomancy: Good point.
19:54	technomancy	there's a big difference between "using this technique in our own codebase" and "this technique is pervasively used in the language"
19:55	danielsz`	technomancy: Very true. Would you say the same for CSP and core.async?
19:55	technomancy	I don't really know enough about csp to comment
19:56	technomancy	I suspect it's different just because async communication is a much less common need than representing potential failures
19:57	technomancy	(witness the fact that I have basically never needed the former personally, whereas any nontrivial program needs the latter)
19:58	danielsz`	technomancy: I mean that Lisp languages can adopt paradigms and really sway the constituency, like core.async.
19:59	danielsz`	Lots of people use core.async like it was part of Clojure. While no Option types implementation has convinced. We have the parts. We have core.match and error monads. But it didn't take on.
20:00	technomancy	core.match was horribly broken for years
20:00	danielsz`	Maybe that's the reason. Is it better now?
20:00	technomancy	yeah, but it still never had nearly as much work poured into it as core.async
20:00	technomancy	which is really infuriating imo
20:00	technomancy	because it's so much more useful
20:01	danielsz`	I've used it in cljs projects. Very useful, I love it.
20:01	arrdem	tbaldridge: so given that I'm gonna have to eat the price of compiling clojure/core.clj with the reference compiler whenever I finally hook into RT, do you think it's worth the effort to hack the way require behaves so that core.clj is loaded, analyzed and reduced by Oxcart? I'd like to be able to use the tightest core that Oxcart can build but given that RT is gonna build the "normal" core anyway I'm not sure it buys me anything without starting to write m
20:01	technomancy	oh yeah, I speak only for server-side stuff
20:01	turbofail	core.match looks kind of awkward compared to racket's pattern matcher
20:01	turbofail	syntactically anyway
20:02	brehaut	technomancy: the error monad thing is useful but yes, problematic. i used polymorphism and it works but it makes me sad
20:02	brehaut	technomancy: i'd rewrite that with core.match in a second if i could
20:02	technomancy	brehaut: erlang just uses pattern matching against lists. works great and is a fairly pervasive pattern
20:02	technomancy	but core.match is too fast-moving for me to include in lein
20:03	technomancy	since it would preclude plugins from using newer versions =(
20:03	technomancy	I've only used core.match in a brief seajure hack night
20:03	brehaut	right
20:04	brehaut	i think core.match has settled a bit recently? mostly due to some hard problems that dnolen is still working out?
20:04	technomancy	I've been burned by too-old deps several times in the past
20:05	technomancy	brehaut: it's not just that new versions must be backwards-compatible, it's that new versions literally cannot be loaded by plugins =\
20:05	brehaut	youch yeah
20:06	technomancy	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/1563 =(
20:06	gfredericks	technomancy: just renamespace the libs you want :P
20:07	technomancy	._.
20:07	gfredericks	hey man, do it for leiningen.
20:07	gfredericks	(ns leiningen.clojure.core.match ...)
20:07	brehaut	technomancy: :S
20:08	technomancy	http://p.hagelb.org/10no.gif
20:09	brehaut	haha
20:11	danielsz`	What makes or breaks compatibility with leiningen? Is it only version clashes with leiningen's own dependencies?
20:12	technomancy	danielsz`: plugins can only introduce new dependencies, not new versions of existing ones.
20:13	technomancy	which I guess is what you said
20:14	danielsz`	I think so. And those existing dependencies are those listed in leinignen's project.clj: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/project.clj
20:14	danielsz`	Very few dependencies.
20:15	danielsz`	Ah, yes, core.cache gave some trouble
20:16	technomancy	http://p.hagelb.org/lein-deps-tree.html 66 deps in the full tree
20:17	danielsz`	Oh, I see.
20:17	technomancy	data.xml and apache http-client are another source of troubles
20:18	danielsz`	Ah, yes, http-client, talking about fast-moving...
20:19	Shayanjm	If I wanted to run a function, wait for some time, then recur indefinitely - how might I do this without committing code suicide?
20:20	danielsz`	Shayanjm: Would this help? https://github.com/joegallo/robert-bruce
20:21	Shayanjm	why yes, yes it would danielsz`
20:21	Shayanjm	thanks :)
20:21	rurumate	is there any source on how to convert the result of (go 42) to a java.concurrent.Future or something similar
20:22	rurumate	in java preferably
20:22	_99hats_	danielsz: nice find! I've been looking for something like that too
20:22	brehaut	,(class (future 1))
20:22	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: no threads please>
20:23	brehaut	&(class (future 1))
20:23	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! future-call is bad!
20:23	danielsz`	Shayanjm: That's a library solution. Many ways to achieve this with built-in fns too. Look at delay, future, etc.
20:23	brehaut	le sigh
20:23	brehaut	,(source future-call)
20:23	clojurebot	Source not found\n
20:23	Shayanjm	much appreciate danielsz` :)
20:23	Shayanjm	appreciated**
20:23	danielsz`	Welcome.
20:31	tuft_	is there a way to make certain functions available in all namespaces for repl sessions?
20:31	tuft_	keep needing to "cd" back to user for doc, refresh, etc.
20:32	technomancy	tuft: not really; the best way to do stuff like that is to expose it from the editor
20:32	technomancy	cider for instance has doc, source, etc, but it makes adding new commands difficult
20:33	tuft	ah hrm, ok
20:33	tuft	thought there might be a way to "patch" clojure.core or something
20:34	tuft	my workflow is to run files in the repl, which changes the ns
20:34	arrdem	tuft: not really, you'd have to hack either the namespace macro or in-ns, neither of which is an awesome idea.
20:34	tuft	(i'm using cursive)
20:34	tuft	ok, thanks
20:35	technomancy	gfredericks: did you notice how I helped with your defrecord problem without ever once chastising you for using records?
20:36	rurumate	not sure if this works: https://www.refheap.com/87852
20:36	rurumate	can just call macros using RT.var() ??
20:36	lazybot	rurumate: Uh, no. Why would you even ask?
20:36	technomancy	tuft: a better solution would be https://github.com/technomancy/nrepl-discover
20:36	technomancy	except it's kinda half-baked
20:37	rurumate	let's be nice lazybot mkay
20:39	amalloy	rurumate: well, he was right
20:39	amalloy	and robots can afford to be rude
20:40	rurumate	RT.var("clojure.core","->").invoke(5)
20:40	rurumate	don't know how to write that in a repl so not even trying lol
20:41	amalloy	rurumate: calling macros from java is basically impossible; you can do it, but all they produce is clojure code, which does you no good
20:41	noonian	,#'->
20:41	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/->
20:41	rurumate	so what call RT.var("clojure.core","eval").invoke("(-> 5)") maybe?
20:41	amalloy	the core.async macros like <! are even worse, because they don't actually exist as real macros: they're just placeholders that go looks for
20:43	rurumate	is <! a macro?
20:43	arrdem	yep
20:43	amalloy	no, it's magic
20:43	arrdem	(assert (magic? macros))
20:43	rurumate	well it could be a function for instance, or just data
20:43	rurumate	a symbol?
20:43	amalloy	it's none of those things. it doesn't exist
20:44	amalloy	core.async/go looks for it in your code
20:44	rurumate	since we're in a go block it doesn't matter what it is right
20:44	rplaca	well, it is a symbol
20:44	rurumate	so just a symbol? but I had to require it
20:45	rplaca	but the go block macro expansion recognizes it and transforms around it
20:45	rurumate	anyway how to convert the return value of a go-block to a Future<Object>, there surely is something yet?
20:46	rurumate	just for interop goodness
20:47	noonian	you could write it in clojure and just call that var
20:47	rurumate	uuh, that fn you mean?
20:47	noonian	yes
20:47	rurumate	thatt would work, provided we have already written it in clojure :D
20:47	noonian	go-blocks return channels that return the last form of the body of the go-block
20:48	rurumate	yes, but there is no java interface "channel" and it can be treated like a Future in manyn cases, to from java perspective, it is a Future right?
20:49	rurumate	sorry keyboard is falling apart
20:49	technomancy	amalloy: I wonder if it qualifies as a special form
20:50	technomancy	iirc thrown? in clojure.test is the same way
20:50	amalloy	technomancy: well, compare to catch and finally in a try
20:51	rurumate_	I mean we should probable also write a converter channel -> Queue and a new interface Channel maybe but for now I'm trying to convert the ch to a Future
20:51	technomancy	amalloy: yup
20:51	amalloy	try is a special form, and it dictates how to handle catch/finally, neither of which are themselves special
20:51	technomancy	if you consider the macro the "compiler" I think it fits the definition
20:52	rurumate_	how to evaluate whole clojure expression given as string, from java?
20:53	rurumate_	RT.var("clojure.core",:eval read-string can do
20:54	rurumate_	sigh, RT.var("clojure.core","eval").invoke("clojure.core","read-string").invoke("(-> 5)")
20:57	amalloy	rurumate_: in clojure 1.6, clojure.java.api.Clojure makes that slightly more convenient, but you've got the basic idea
20:57	rurumate_	still wrong tho
20:57	amalloy	oh? did you forget to require clojure.core?
20:59	rurumate_	why is this so hard?
20:59	technomancy	because it's java
21:00	amalloy	i don't know what he's complaining about. the thing he pasted works
21:00	amalloy	,(-> (RT/var "clojure.core" "eval") (.invoke (-> (RT/var "clojure.core" "read-string") (.invoke "(-> 5)"))))
21:00	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such namespace: RT, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
21:01	amalloy	,(-> (clojure.lang.RT/var "clojure.core" "eval") (.invoke (-> (clojure.lang.RT/var "clojure.core" "read-string") (.invoke "(-> 5)"))))
21:01	clojurebot	5
21:01	technomancy	well, I wouldn't know how to do that in java
21:01	amalloy	it's what he pasted
21:01	amalloy	oh, except he needs to cast to IFn
21:02	amalloy	no, i guess he doesn't. dunno what was wrong for him
21:08	gfredericks	technomancy: no I did not notice that. thank you for helping me with my defrecord porblem
21:08	gfredericks	(inc technomancy)
21:08	lazybot	⇒ 116
21:08	technomancy	I was holding back
21:10	gfredericks	technomancy: I'm curious how you would model the problem; can't splain it right now though
21:13	gfredericks	technomancy: I guess it's just an unqualified "multimethods" eh?
21:13	arrdem	happy 4th people
21:13	arrdem	murica
21:29	technomancy	gfredericks: if it's a legitimate polymorphism need, sure
21:29	technomancy	*legitimate non-bottleneck polymorphism
21:31	gfredericks	technomancy: I use component and I like how protocols formalize the relationship between different parts of the application
21:32	gfredericks	and make it easy to mock stuff in tests
21:32	Shayanjm	not sure if this function does what I want it to do...
21:32	Shayanjm	https://gist.github.com/shayanjm/383b5847738c35f748a6
21:33	Shayanjm	Basically, when I pass a function into infinite-loop-on-realization, I would like it to execute the function, wait for it to return, and then repeat without blocking the execution of anything else
21:34	hiredman	uh
21:35	hiredman	realized? is always true for a promise you have delivered to
21:35	Shayanjm	Even if the promise hasn't fully resolved yet hiredman?
21:35	Shayanjm	i.e: if 'func' takes like a minute to fully execute
21:35	Shayanjm	is current-promise realized before func finishes executing?
21:36	hiredman	Shayanjm: you are calling func as an argument to deliver, so by the time deliver runs, func as already finished
21:36	hiredman	(while true (func)) is equivilant to what you have written there
21:37	Shayanjm	Oh I see
21:37	Shayanjm	So I actually don't even need the when
21:37	Shayanjm	I just loop after deliver?
21:38	hiredman	no, the promise and the deliver are doing nothing there
21:38	hiredman	(while true (func)) will run exactly the same
21:38	Shayanjm	oic
21:38	Shayanjm	Okay let me ask this a different way
21:38	Shayanjm	given a function which I would like to execute continuously without blocking, and loop on return, what's the easiest way to do that?
21:39	Shayanjm	since I'm assuming (while true (func)) will block
21:39	hiredman	Shayanjm: rigth, and so will your code
21:39	Shayanjm	Okay let me try refactoring this really quickly
21:46	Shayanjm	hiredman: https://gist.github.com/shayanjm/d37b5b34b08281fa0aa7
21:46	Shayanjm	threw the function into a future
21:47	Shayanjm	waiting until the function finishes executing, then recurs
21:54	Shayanjm	Yeah I don't think this is doing what I want it to do...
22:06	hellofunk	i'm trying to find the best way to architect a series of source files that communicate via async channels; but they must all know the same channel object to do so. to avoid circular dependencies, i'm giving each one an atom, then a controller source file creates the channel and each file gets a copy of it. but seems like potential for state mess
22:08	ddellacosta	hellofunk: why can't you put the shared channel in one namespace, and then include that in all the other namespaces that need it?
22:09	hellofunk	ddellacosta: but just including a namespace isn't the same as including the data in an atom stored in that namespace, right? wouldn't all the includes lead to different default values for the atom?
22:09	ddellacosta	hellofunk: or is that what you're doing and I'm not understanding your question?
22:10	ddellacosta	hellofunk: it doesn't have to do with namespaces, it has to do with threads and the type of construct you choose to use
22:10	ddellacosta	hellofunk: I like Arthur Ulfeldt's answer here: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9132346/clojure-differences-between-ref-var-agent-atom-with-examples
22:11	hellofunk	ddellacosta for example, i have a (def a (atom 0)) in a namespace. now I include this namespace in a bunch of others. But if the atom is swapped by one file, that wouldn't mean that the other files that include the atom file will see that new atom's state
22:11	ddellacosta	hellofunk: yes. So you have to know that that's the model you want to use.
22:12	hellofunk	ddellacosta: you mean "yes" as in, I am correct, the swapped atom would not in that case be seen by other files.
22:13	ddellacosta	hellofunk: no, it would. You are updating that atom and that update would be visible to all namespaces using it.
22:13	ddellacosta	hellofunk: sorry if I responding confusingly, I meant, "yes it would update"
22:14	hellofunk	ddellacosta: oh that's interesting. I thought that when a file does a require, it basically reads the source file as if it was brand new and hadn't been loaded before and any (def a (atom...)) creates a new atom; therefore every require in the whole project would be creating new atoms
22:15	nathan7	hellofunk: namespaces are like, actual objects
22:15	nathan7	hellofunk: held in a global table of all namespaces
22:15	nathan7	hellofunk: they're loaded once
22:16	nathan7	hellofunk: if you're AOT compiling, they're just classfiles
22:16	hellofunk	nathan7, ddellacosta: ah! so no matter how many times you load (require) a namespace, it really only exists once, including any defs (atoms) it has? wow this is definitely not what I thought was happening.
22:16	ddellacosta	well, think about defonce
22:16	nathan7	hellofunk: yep
22:16	nathan7	hellofunk: see (all-ns)
22:16	nathan7	,(all-ns)
22:16	clojurebot	(#<Namespace clojure.uuid> #<Namespace user> #<Namespace clojure.core> #<Namespace sandbox> #<Namespace clojure.repl> ...)
22:17	hellofunk	nathan7 well this certainly makes things easier. i was forging into spaghetti and now i see that was unnecessary
22:17	nathan7	,(->> (all-ns) (map #(vector (.name %) %)) (into {}))
22:17	clojurebot	{user #<Namespace user>, clojure.core.protocols #<Namespace clojure.core.protocols>, clojure.core #<Namespace clojure.core>, sandbox #<Namespace sandbox>, clojure.uuid #<Namespace clojure.uuid>, ...}
22:18	nathan7	that map exists somewhere, the global namespace table
22:18	hellofunk	nathan7 so the first namespace to require another namespace "instantiates" it, while any other requires just "point" to it
22:18	nathan7	hellofunk: yep
22:19	nathan7	hellofunk: you could consider all the namespaces as 'already there', but just lazily loaded
22:19	hellofunk	nathan7 i was so wrapped up in the functional nature of how clojure works, it did not occur to me that this object-oriented type of state could be happening
22:19	ddellacosta	hellofunk: yes, I was going to say, think about defonce--its existence tells you a lot about how namespaces work in Clojure
22:19	ddellacosta	(doc defonce)
22:19	clojurebot	eval service is offline
22:20	ddellacosta	$&!#&!
22:20	ddellacosta	&(doc defonce)
22:20	lazybot	⇒ "Macro ([name expr]); defs name to have the root value of the expr iff the named var has no root value, else expr is unevaluated"
22:21	hellofunk	ddellacosta but if require points to existing namespace objects already, i would think that just plain ol' def would not get recreated if what nathan7 says is correct, that def would not re-def everytime the file is loaded
22:21	nathan7	hellofunk: it would re-def every time the file is loaded
22:21	nathan7	hellofunk: however, the file is loaded only once
22:21	nathan7	hellofunk: unless you require it with :reload
22:22	hellofunk	nathan7 ah, so if i have a (def (atom ...)) then indeed every time that namespace is required, the def will indeed be reset. thus, defonce would prevent this and ensure that only one piece of state existed unchanged no matter how many requires
22:22	nathan7	hellofunk: no
22:22	ddellacosta	hellofunk: not required, reloaded
22:23	hiredman	require loads the namespace if it is not already loaded
22:23	nathan7	hellofunk: require looks like (if (contains? namespaces) (get namespaces ns) (load ns))
22:23	hellofunk	well, i mean the :require in the (ns at the top of the file.
22:23	nathan7	hellofunk: yes
22:23	nathan7	hellofunk: it'll load it if it isn't loaded yet
22:24	hellofunk	so, going back to ddellacosta original suggestion, i could put all my shared atoms in a single namespace, but they should be defonce for all of them
22:24	hiredman	ugh
22:24	hiredman	terrible
22:24	hiredman	how about you just pass arguments to functions
22:24	hellofunk	hiredman, well this gets back to my original question
22:25	hellofunk	hiredman, the problem is circular dependencies.
22:25	nathan7	hellofunk: even just def would be fine
22:25	hiredman	hellofunk: it isn't
22:25	nathan7	,@#'clojure.core/loaded-libs
22:25	clojurebot	#<Ref@7643fa: #{clojure.core.protocols clojure.instant clojure.java.io clojure.repl clojure.string ...}>
22:25	hellofunk	nathan7 you say that because everything is loaded at once, therefore all the multiple defs just happen at the same time
22:25	hiredman	create a namespace foo, it requires the other namespaces and calls functions from them
22:26	nathan7	hellofunk: http://sprunge.us/YOTZ?clojure
22:26	nathan7	hellofunk: src/clj/clojure/core.clj around line 5475
22:26	hiredman	(require '[foo.bar :as foo] '[a.b :as a]) (let [c (chan] (foo/bar c) (a/bar c)) etc
22:27	nathan7	hellofunk: if you haven't passed :reload, and it's already loaded, it'll just grab it from loaded-libs
22:27	hiredman	global atoms in a namespace? what are you guys even thinking?
22:27	nathan7	q=
22:28	hellofunk	hiredman so you are suggesting to just pass the channel as arguments instead of sharing it in a piece of state
22:28	ddellacosta	hiredman: I've had cases where global atoms are the right solution--for example if I need initialization of a resource to happen at a specific time, and I know it won't change.
22:28	hiredman	hellofunk: yes
22:29	nathan7	my main clojure app has an agent like this for similar reasons
22:29	hellofunk	hiredman well I can't really argue with that. but part of this model is stemming from the fact that I'm using Om, which uses a single global atom for state. and i'm trying to interact with it from various source files
22:29	nathan7	it's the state everything operates on
22:29	hiredman	nathan7: ugh
22:29	nathan7	hiredman: it's a server, it has one global piece of state I need to interact with everywhere
22:29	hiredman	nathan7: ugh
22:29	nathan7	hiredman: if there is >1 instance of it everything is fucked
22:30	nathan7	hiredman: and I need access to it from nREPLs etc
22:30	nathan7	hiredman: I'm considering moving it into the file with my -main and passing it to everywhere from there
22:30	nathan7	hiredman: but that's still kind of painful
22:30	nathan7	hiredman: like, I am totally with you on this
22:31	nathan7	hiredman: but this is just like, say, the global table of namespaces
22:31	nathan7	hiredman: because it's basically this app's namespaces of domain data
22:32	nathan7	I still have to think a bunch about how the state works for this thing though
22:32	hellofunk	hiredman or i guess one could just pass the atom itself around in the arguments
22:33	hellofunk	hiredman it just seemed easier to reduce lots of extra args on every function
22:33	ddellacosta	hellofunk: I think an atom is a perfectly reasonable place to put a channel that you know won't change for the lifecycle of the app
22:33	ddellacosta	hellofunk: but opinions may differ
22:33	nathan7	ddellacosta phrased what I was trying to say perfectly
22:34	nathan7	like, passing this around everywhere would lead to state being strewn all over the place
22:34	nathan7	and I'm writing Clojure because I wish to avoid that
22:34	hellofunk	ddellacosta regarding defonce vs just def seems this is useful only if you might actually call def on something more than once
22:35	nathan7	I use defonce for this because I'd rather not have all my state reappear when I re-evaluate the file it's in
22:35	hellofunk	nathan7 be "reappear" you mean get reset to the default state noted in the source file
22:36	nathan7	hellofunk: which is 'empty'
22:36	nathan7	hellofunk: (defonce world (agent (WorldState.))
22:37	hellofunk	nathan7 so i think you mean "disappear" upon re-eval rather than "appear" ?
22:37	ddellacosta	nathan7: yes, passing stuff around exclusively can lead to equally hard-to-reason-about code
22:37	nathan7	err, disappear, yes
22:37	gfixler	Is there a version of drop-while that returns the result of the predicate test, instead of the shorter collection?
22:37	nathan7	Clojure namespaces are a really pleasant mechanism for this stuff
22:38	hellofunk	well all this has been quite enlightening. all this time i thought :require statements were giving each source file its own copy of everything in the :require'd namespace. fantastic to hear that's not the case.
22:38	ddellacosta_	hiredman: can you please allow my handle (ddellacosta) access to clojurebot?
22:38	nathan7	namespaces just… magically reify a concept I already use in any module system
22:38	nathan7	and it's grand
22:39	nathan7	like, my code is data, and it's state
22:39	hellofunk	that namespaces are basically an object-oriented structure inside any clojure project is pretty cool, actually.
22:40	ddellacosta_	hellofunk: not object-oriented. ;-)
22:40	nathan7	object-oriented in the sense that they are objects that can be manipulated, perhaps
22:41	hellofunk	nathan7 object-oriented in that they are single copies of everything they contain, where all the defs are like stored state made available to any other namespace that uses it
22:43	nathan7	hellofunk: I suppose they're actually quite OO
22:43	nathan7	hellofunk: they're state and behaviour
22:43	gfixler	Nevermind, found it: (some #(when (pred? %) %) coll) ; Clojure is cool
22:43	nathan7	gfixler: hm, there should be a better way
22:43	ddellacosta_	nathan7: but not encapsulated; there's no data hiding, no?
22:43	nathan7	ddellacosta_: ^:private
22:44	ddellacosta_	nathan7: hmm, fair point, although there's a good amount of debate over use of ^:private
22:44	gfixler	nathan7: how about (winner pred? coll)? :)
22:45	danielsz`	gfixler: that reads like 'filter to me
22:45	gfixler	danelsz: you're right - so maybe (first (filter pred? coll))
22:46	nathan7	okay now I feel very stupid for not thinking of that
22:46	gfixler	It's worse for me; I've been looking at this for about 20 minutes :(
22:46	nathan7	this is the thing about functional programming languages
22:47	danielsz`	give it some time. it sinks in and becomes second nature
22:47	nathan7	like, once I start doing complex objects I can just worry about how my shit fits into this complicated structure
22:47	nathan7	and I can avoid solving actual, well, math, technically
22:48	gfixler	Even though I'm a newb to FP, it's happening. It's becoming more normal each day.
22:48	nathan7	I'm a functional JS programmer, people pay me money to write JavaScript
22:48	nathan7	and I love it
22:49	gfixler	Nice. I'm in games - mostly Python for tools/pipeline stuff in Autodesk Maya.
22:49	nathan7	because they're convinced that I'm writing JS, and I'm just writing functional code, that happens to be encoded as JavaScript
22:50	nathan7	and JS lends itself perfectly to this
22:50	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
22:50	gfixler	Hehe. I'm also doing somewhat functional things in Python, and no one is the wiser.
22:50	nathan7	something I've been doing for a few projects is just prototyping the concepts in Clojure
22:50	nathan7	and then transliterating it
22:50	gfixler	Are you on Linux?
22:50	nathan7	Yep
22:50	gfixler	nice
22:50	nathan7	like, I have a bunch of little helper libs
22:50	gfixler	same here - I can hop in and out of languages instantly
22:51	gfixler	"How would I do this in Clojure?" - seconds later hammering away in a repl
22:51	gfixler	then I go back to Python and sigh, because it's much harder there
22:51	nathan7	I wrote a helper lib that's just all the hashmap functions from Clojure
22:51	nathan7	like, assoc/assoc-in/dissoc/keys/vals/etc
22:51	gfixler	cool - FP is giving JS a second life
22:52	nathan7	and each of the mutation functions has a matching one postfixed with M
22:52	nathan7	which actually mutates objects in place instead of copying them completely for every operation
22:53	nathan7	I write my stuff using the pure functions
22:53	gfixler	You didn't reimplement Clojure's shared structure stuff, did you?
22:53	nathan7	I did not
22:53	gfixler	phwew
22:53	nathan7	it's a naive copy
22:53	gfixler	that would be crazy
22:53	nathan7	there's a lib, mori, that just re-exports all ClojureScript's stuff to JSland
22:54	nathan7	but I want to work with just raw JS objects because mori is giant
22:54	nathan7	once I'm done writing my logic
22:54	nathan7	I go through my code and look at where state enters and leaves
22:54	gfixler	Ah, swannodette, I should've known
22:54	gfixler	that guy is brilliant
22:54	nathan7	and append an M to function calls
22:55	nathan7	like, same thing you'd do in Clojure with transients
22:55	gfixler	I haven't heard of transients yet
22:55	gfixler	Well, I guess that's now technically untrue
22:56	nathan7	so, Clojure data structures are like all structure-sharing and stuff, so creating new ones instead of mutating in-place is fast
22:56	nathan7	but if you're doing, say, group-by, and just modifying the same hashmap a hundred times, you're creating a hundred objects and letting them be GC'd again
22:57	nathan7	so instead, you do (transient {}), and use assoc! instead of assoc
22:57	nathan7	and get an object that actually mutates in-place
22:57	gfixler	got it
22:57	nathan7	they implement IEditableCollection
22:58	nathan7	so, assoc! returns a new transient, and marks the old one as being unusable (every operation on it throws, I think), and you pass them around inside your function the same way you'd do otherwise
22:58	gfixler	interesting
22:58	nathan7	and when you're done with it, you call persistent! and it turns it into a regular hashmap
22:59	gfixler	sweet - I just found this possibly related thing tonight: http://z.caudate.me/you-took-3-months-to-write-a-mutable-array/
22:59	nathan7	like, check (source group-by) in your REPL
23:00	nathan7	gfixler: like, mutable state creates huge trouble for applications
23:00	nathan7	gfixler: but functions mutating something internally, not externally visible -> "if a tree falls in a forest, and nobody is around to hear it"
23:01	nathan7	-> if a function mutates a structure internally, and nobody's around to see it
23:01	gfixler	Right, as with loop invariants
23:01	gfixler	things are free to change inside the loop, but must be stable at the start and end of each iteration
23:01	nathan7	Yep.
23:07	dbasch	nathan7: I don't think that's correct (assoc! may return the same object, although there are no guarantees)
23:25	nathan7	dbasch: oh?
23:25	nathan7	dbasch: hmm, yes
23:26	dbasch	e.g.
23:26	dbasch	,(let [a (transient {})] (= a (assoc! a :b :c)))
23:26	clojurebot	true
23:28	nathan7	dbasch: identical? would be more clear, but yeah
23:28	nathan7	(I'm aware transients don't do actual deep equality)
23:29	dbasch	,(let [a (transient {})] (identical? a (assoc! a :b :c)))
23:29	clojurebot	true
23:32	dbasch	nathan7: other than that, I like your explanation
23:33	nathan7	dbasch: I basically pull the same tricks in JS
23:34	nathan7	dbasch: like, perform escape analysis in your head, add some M's in places
23:37	nathan7	dbasch: I'm a compiler nerd (though a fairly half-assed one), so I spend a lot of time thinking about this kind of thing
23:38	nathan7	dbasch: I have a pile of notes on a fully-refcounted language, where every heap object has an atomic refcounter
23:38	nathan7	dbasch: and then using that to mutate objects in place opportunistically
23:39	nathan7	dbasch: and avoiding a lot of allocation using this
23:39	nathan7	dbasch: and smart ahead-of-time escape analysis style trickery to do even more magic like this
23:40	dbasch	sounds cool, but at the same time a lot of work
23:41	nathan7	like, every time I have to think about this, I go scribble in my notes for a bit on how the compiler could do it for me
23:41	nathan7	a lot of abstractions can be zero-cost
23:43	nathan7	and all of these things are incremental — you have a little more information on how the program works, the compiler can do a bunch more
23:43	nathan7	like, a system I admire very much is ZFS, which has this magical property too
23:43	nathan7	you throw more hardware at it, and it magically becomes faster, in ways that are actually really intelligent, but a lot of it is emergent behaviour
23:44	nathan7	I haven't found a word or a good way to describe this concept
23:45	nathan7	lisps are helping me a lot in this, because in a hundred lines of code I can build another lisp
23:45	nathan7	and in like, maybe two hundred lines I can do it in any nice language
23:46	nathan7	so I can build entire languages around single concepts very quickly
23:46	nathan7	and each time I understand more, and my understanding becomes more abstract
23:47	dbasch	reminds me of this: http://www.buildyourownlisp.com/
23:47	nathan7	yeah, I saw that
23:47	nathan7	I still want to build one in Rust so I can do stuff like the refcounting lang
23:48	nathan7	but I have several implementations of my f-expr lisp which are all cool in their own way
23:48	nathan7	the one issue I have with writing lisps in lisps is that the lines are blurred easily
23:48	nathan7	I have an implementation of my fexpr lisp, Plan, in Clojure
23:49	nathan7	and I'm very confused about how it actually works now because I have a hard time telling what is my stuff, and how it works with Clojure stuff
23:50	nathan7	because I'm doing a lot of voodoo that unites the worlds of Clojure and Plan
23:50	nathan7	and I don't actually have debugging tools at all
23:50	nathan7	so I have a null pointer exception somewhere that I can't really debug
23:51	nathan7	and my mental model of it all is very murky
23:56	nathan7	dbasch: maybe I should actually follow the buildyourownlisp sometime, but in Rust
23:56	dbasch	I guess it shouldn't be that hard to do it in Go either
23:57	nathan7	Yeah, I have a very strong dislike of Go
23:58	nathan7	bnoordhuis (possibly drunkenly) perfectly described it as the language that "missed the last 20 years of computer science"
23:58	dbasch	to me it's just another language, neither here nor there
23:58	nathan7	it's neither here nor there indeed
23:58	serjeem	it makes me sad that in TYOOL 2014 they're still putting out non-polymorphic typed languages
23:59	nathan7	elaborate
23:59	nathan7	oh, nvm, makes sense now