#clojure – 2014-06-26

2014-06-26

02:30	visof	hi
02:31	visof	i tried to require (require 'clj-wordnet.similarity.algo.hso :reload) , but i got errors FileNotFoundException Could not locate clj_wordnet/similarity/algo/hso__init.class why it try to loat clj_wordnet not clj-wordnet
02:31	visof	?
02:32	visof	i'm using tutorial here https://github.com/delver/clj-wordnet
02:40	vpm	willgorman: 25
02:41	vpm	oh fracking irssi, sorry :-/
03:06	cespare	technomancy: is there a way to change the column width slamhound uses?
03:11	latk	What does the hash symbol signify in this code: #(= contact %) ?
03:25	justin_smith	latk: # introduces a reader macro
03:25	justin_smith	here's a neat trick:
03:26	justin_smith	,'#(= contact %)
03:26	clojurebot	(fn* [p1__25#] (= contact p1__25#))
03:26	justin_smith	we can see from the quoted form's expansion that it creates an anonymous function
03:26	justin_smith	the var name is a bit weird, but it should be clear what it did
03:27	justin_smith	sometimes you get the # back in the read form
03:27	justin_smith	,#{1 2 3}
03:27	clojurebot	#{1 3 2}
03:27	justin_smith	,(class #{1 2 3})
03:27	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentHashSet
03:29	clodeindustrie	hi there, newbie here, can someone explain to me why I can do (= '(1) '(2)) and not (= (1) (2))
03:31	cmdrdats	clodeindustrie: '(1) is a list with 1 element, (1) is trying to call 1 as a function
03:35	clodeindustrie	The problem I was working on had ((fn foo [x] (when (> x 0) (conj (foo (dec x)) x))) 5) returning (5 4 3 2 1)
03:36	clodeindustrie	I guess I can't consider a list ?
03:52	latk	Is destructuring just the same as tuple unpacking in python ?
04:01	ddellacosta	latk: seems similar in the case of vectors, although I'm not sure what would be analogous for how hash-map destructuring works in Clojure--is there a way to do destructuring assignment with dictionaries in python?
04:02	latk	ddellacosta: There wasn't the last time I used Python :p
04:02	latk	But yes, I suppose I meant similar rather than the same
04:03	ddellacosta	&(let [[x y] [1 2 3]] (println "x: " x ", y: " y))
04:03	lazybot	⇒ x: 1 , y: 2 nil
04:03	ddellacosta	latk: & I guess that example is pretty similar to how Python does it, right?
04:03	ddellacosta	er, ^
04:03	ddellacosta	&(let [{:keys [x y]} {:x 1 :y 2}] (println "x: " x ", y: " y))
04:03	lazybot	⇒ x: 1 , y: 2 nil
04:04	ddellacosta	,(println "still locked out of clojurebot?")
04:04	clojurebot	eval service is offline
04:04	latk	ddellacosta: Pretty similar, yeah
04:21	latk	I see the function keys returns the keys of a map. What does {:keys [delete]} mean?
04:22	latk	Is this still using the keys function, or something else ?
04:24	clgv	latk: that's associative destructuring of maps
04:24	clgv	latk: it extracts the value bound to keyword ":delete" and binds it to symbol "delete"
04:25	latk	clgv: Ah, okay. That value can be any other datastructure, presumably ?
04:25	latk	clgv: Also, why does it get the value bound to :delete?
04:25	clgv	latk: you mean the value that is finally bound to "delete"?
04:26	latk	clgv: Yes
04:26	clgv	yeah thats arbitrary
04:26	latk	Okay
04:27	clgv	,(let [my-map {:a 42 :b (zipmap (range 5) (range 5)}, {:keys [a b]} my-map] (prn a b))
04:27	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: }>
04:27	clgv	,(let [my-map {:a 42 :b (zipmap (range 5) (range 5))}, {:keys [a b]} my-map] (prn a b))
04:27	clojurebot	42 {4 4, 3 3, 2 2, 1 1, 0 0}\n
04:27	clgv	latk: ^^
04:27	latk	clgv: Huh, okay. I would not have guessed that this is what :keys does :P
04:28	latk	clgv: Incidentally, where is the best place to search for this kind of thing? Is there a clojure-specific search that will understand :keys ?
04:28	clgv	latk: just search for "clojure destructuring" or "clojure map destructuring"
04:29	clgv	there are at least two blog post explaining the details
04:29	latk	clgv: No sure, I meant in general if I found something I didn't understand :p
04:29	clgv	latk: ask here how it's called so that you can search properly ;)
04:29	latk	hah, okay :)
04:31	clgv	latk: or if you are new get one of the recent books and work through it. in my experience thats the fastest way to learn clojure. depending on your speed you can be through a book in 3-5 days fulltime with trying examples
04:33	latk	clgv: I skimmed through a book, but found some tutorials online that seemed more interesting.. if I get stuck today, I will go back to it
04:51	clgv	latk: ok, maybe that's the academic in me that wants to read such a book completely to get a solid basic knowledge ;)
04:52	latk	clgv: I tend to learn best by doing :P
04:58	clgv	latk: that's tricky with clojure since you have to learn a lot of new concepts (depending on your background) and thus you simply can't do the thing you dont know the concepts of ;)
04:59	clgv	by working through the book I dont mean just reading but also experimenting with examples ;)
05:22	latk	clgv: I'm most comfortable programming in Haskell, so I'm relativley comfortable with functional stuff. Admittedly I have no experience with lisps..
05:27	clgv	latk: yeah just wanted to share my thoughts ;)
05:27	latk	clgv: You may well be right - will have to see how it goes !
05:52	latk	Could anyone explain the let binding in: http://bpaste.net/show/VeTUgekGw8tdmudTfIqX/ ?
05:53	latk	It is more complicated than the simple examples I have read, and I don't quite get it.
06:06	viperscape	latk: http://bpaste.net/show/hyGOYllsePNAKNus2gh3/
06:07	viperscape	it's destructuring the string's parts into a vector, called parts
06:09	viperscape	you could just as well do (second parts) within the let bindings, or simply "last" since it's techinically bound to it through the destructuring
06:11	viperscape	also, I wouldn't suggest using key terms such as first and last
06:11	latk	viperscape: Isn't all of the stuff inside the first set of [] in the same let binding ?
06:13	viperscape	,(let [[f m l :as parts] (clojure.string/split "first last" #"\s+")] (= m (second parts)))
06:13	clojurebot	true
06:15	viperscape	the second line is simply reordering the f m l parts, essentially dropping middle-name if needed
06:15	viperscape	or last, rather
06:15	latk	this is what I suspected
06:16	viperscape	http://blog.jayfields.com/2010/07/clojure-destructuring.html
06:21	clgv	be carefull with the combination of :or and :as ;)
06:44	hyPiRion	oh, that one's always "funny"
06:44	hyPiRion	Also the fact that either :or or :as does its argument in reverse
07:06	latk	,(.. "string" (substring 2) (equals "ring"))
07:06	clojurebot	true
07:07	latk	,(-> "string" (substring 2) (equals "ring"))
07:07	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: equals in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
07:08	ro_st	if i use key destructuring inside a when-let, does the when part look at each of the destructured locals?
07:11	luxbock	https://gist.github.com/luxbock/425ae5912656b9ff7803
07:11	luxbock	what is the right way to translate the (new Date(d)) part to CLJS?
07:13	hyPiRion	,(= (subs "string" 2) "ring")
07:13	clojurebot	true
07:13	latk	How can I find the documentation on .. and . in clojurescript ?
07:18	TimMc	latk: It's the same as in Clojure. (doc ..)
07:19	TimMc	latk: . is a special form, though, and probably doesn't have doc from the REPL.
07:19	TimMc	http://clojure.github.io/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/.
07:26	clgv	(doc ..)
07:26	clojurebot	"([x form] [x form & more]); form => fieldName-symbol or (instanceMethodName-symbol args*) Expands into a member access (.) of the first member on the first argument, followed by the next member on the result, etc. For instance: (.. System (getProperties) (get \"os.name\")) expands to: (. (. System (getProperties)) (get \"os.name\")) but is easier to write, read, and understand."
07:50	jonathanj	i feel like i'm being silly here
07:51	jonathanj	i created a new project with lein and do lein repl but i can't access stuff defined in my code as i was expecting:
07:51	jonathanj	clj-neon.core=> -input-stream
07:51	jonathanj	CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: -input-stream in this context, compiling:(/private/var/folders/qj/lb3tbsp97gg74jpcxtcw30zm0000gn/T/form-init698424686803171253.clj:1:941)
07:51	jonathanj	core.clj:6: (defn -input-stream
08:27	jcromartie	can any Enlive contributors comment on https://github.com/cgrand/enlive/pull/107
08:29	jcromartie	2 weeks and no comments or nuffin
08:49	latk	Where can I find the docs for om.dom ?
09:07	ollivera	how can I access locale value in the array? :pageid "1" :translation [{:locale "ja_JP"},{:locale "zh_CN"}]
09:09	bbloom	that's a "vector" not an array
09:09	bbloom	(doc get-in)
09:09	clojurebot	"([m ks] [m ks not-found]); Returns the value in a nested associative structure, where ks is a sequence of keys. Returns nil if the key is not present, or the not-found value if supplied."
09:09	ollivera	okay, thank you
09:09	bbloom	(get-in yourmap [:translation 0 :local])
09:46	visof	,(clojure.string/split "helloWorld" #"(?=[A-Z])")
09:46	clojurebot	["hello" "World"]
09:46	visof	,(clojure.string/split "helloWOrld" #"(?=[A-Z])")
09:46	clojurebot	["hello" "W" "Orld"]
09:46	visof	that's problem for splitting
09:47	visof	how can i fix this ?
09:50	TimMc	visof: You haven't explained why you tthink that's wrong. :-)
09:51	visof	TimMc: i need to split in the first upper letter
09:51	visof	if i got two or n upper letter consecutive then split at first one
09:52	visof	,(clojure.string/split "helloWOrld" #"(?=[A-Z][A-Z])")
09:52	clojurebot	["hello" "WOrld"]
09:52	visof	,(clojure.string/split "helloWORld" #"(?=[A-Z][A-Z][A-Z])")
09:52	clojurebot	["hello" "WORld"]
09:52	TimMc	,(clojure.string/split "helloWOrld" #"(?=[A-Z]+)")
09:52	clojurebot	["hello" "W" "Orld"]
09:52	TimMc	Hmm, right.
09:53	visof	this techinque do what i need, so the solution maybe to check if there is [A-Z]+ pattern
09:53	visof	if i got [A-Z] pattern then split at [A-Z]
09:53	TimMc	You could include a negative lookbehind for uppercase.
09:53	visof	if there is two then split at [A-Z][A-Z]
09:54	visof	if there are n split at [A-Z]..n
09:54	visof	is there a good way to do this?
09:55	TimMc	,(clojure.string/split "helloWOrld" #"(?<![A-Z])(?=[A-Z])")
09:55	clojurebot	["hello" "WOrld"]
09:56	TimMc	visof: but maybe you actually want the camel-snake-kebab library?
09:57	Dutch\|AFK	quit
09:57	visof	TimMc: can it handle myAPI ?
09:57	visof	have you checked it?
09:58	TimMc	visof: Haven't used it myself, but I think it handles this sort of thing.
09:58	visof	TimMc: i'm trying it
10:18	Shayanjm	Is there a way that I can completely replace the values in a ref with totally new values?
10:18	Shayanjm	update-in seems to modify state with some applied function
10:18	Shayanjm	but that seems a bit roundabout for what I'm trying to do
10:20	TimMc	Shayanjm: ref-set
10:20	Shayanjm	wow.
10:20	Shayanjm	thanks TimMc
10:20	Shayanjm	i should probably just generally read the API docs shouldn't I
10:20	TimMc	Shayanjm: I keep telling myself that one of these days I will skim through clojure.core.
10:20	Shayanjm	lol
10:20	TimMc	http://clojure.org/cheatsheet is good though
10:21	Shayanjm	ah
10:22	Shayanjm	so if I'm understanding correctly: refs have write guarantees when transacted upon?
10:22	Shayanjm	so I'm assuming to reap those benefits you would have to be transacting over multiple refs?
10:23	Shayanjm	(i.e: can't be a ref & an atom?)
10:23	TimMc	yeah
10:23	Shayanjm	k cool
10:23	TimMc	Only refs (and in a certain sense, agents) participate in txs,
10:23	TimMc	.
10:24	TimMc	(Txns delay agent sends until they complete.)
10:26	Shayanjm	gotcha
10:27	Shayanjm	Yeah basically I'm just getting a bunch of stuff from the NYT API, sticking it in (what used to be an atom) what is now a ref, performing SA on the URLS in the ref, and storing the results to a second ref so they can be 'gotten' easily
10:29	TimMc	Shayanjm: Make sure you understand what ensure does.
10:31	TimMc	(Watch out for write skew.)
10:34	Shayanjm	wait what DOES ensure do?
10:34	Shayanjm	it says it provides 'more concurrency than ref-set'
10:34	Shayanjm	looking online, the provided examples aren't really clear either...
10:35	Shayanjm	My best guess is: if I'm altering ref1 via ref-set or something, i'd need to throw ensure on ref2 to make sure it's not accidentally transacted on in the meanwhile?
10:35	Shayanjm	but if I'm ref-setting BOTH refs within a single dosync, would using ensure matter?
10:37	TimMc	You got it. (in *2)
10:38	TimMc	It prevents ref2 from being written to if you're only reading from it.
10:38	Shayanjm	I see
10:38	Shayanjm	but isn't the whole clojure mantra 'no side effects'?
10:38	Shayanjm	err, i guess lisp mantra?
10:38	TimMc	but multiple txns can call ensure on the same ref without interfering with each other (more concurrency)
10:38	Shayanjm	oic
10:39	Shayanjm	so i could have 3x ensure on a ref without issues?
10:39	Shayanjm	does ensure just last the lifetime of the txn?
10:40	TimMc	yeah
10:40	Shayanjm	cool
10:40	TimMc	(Theoretically, haven't tested or read the source.)
10:40	Shayanjm	kk
10:41	TimMc	Various Lisps use side-effects all over the place.
10:41	TimMc	(mutablle cons, etc)
10:41	TimMc	Clojure is focused on reducing uncontrolled mutation.
10:42	Shayanjm	gotcha
10:43	koreth__	That's even true of something like Haskell, really -- they're not against side effects per se over in Haskell land, it's just about keeping them well-contained and nailing down the semantics.
10:43	Shayanjm	gotcha
10:55	benzap	when destructuring, is there a way to bind a key to a new key name? like (let [{:keys [x :as blah]}]...
10:56	cbp	(let [{a :c} {:c 1}] c)
10:56	cbp	er
10:56	cbp	,(let [{a :c} {:c 1}] a)
10:56	clojurebot	1
10:57	benzap	ah ok
11:21	mocker	Is there a difference between these two things?
11:21	mocker	,(merge {:a 1 :b 2} {:b 3 :c 4})
11:21	clojurebot	{:c 4, :b 3, :a 1}
11:21	mocker	,(conj {:a 1 :b 2} {:b 3 :c 4})
11:21	clojurebot	{:c 4, :b 3, :a 1}
11:22	ndaly	I think merge can take an arbitrary number of arguments and conj only conjoins one
11:22	ndaly	but I'm a total newb, so I could be wrong
11:22	mocker	:)
11:22	mocker	newbs unite!
11:24	llasram	When everything is a map I believe they have the same result, but `merge` makes that intent more explicit and handles a `nil` initial argument differently
11:24	llasram	,(conj {} {:a 1} {:b 1} {:c 1})
11:24	clojurebot	{:c 1, :b 1, :a 1}
11:25	llasram	,(conj nil {:a 1} {:b 1} {:c 1})
11:25	clojurebot	({:c 1} {:b 1} {:a 1})
11:25	llasram	,(merge nil {:a 1} {:b 1} {:c 1})
11:25	clojurebot	{:c 1, :b 1, :a 1}
11:25	mocker	Nice, thanks.
11:26	llasram	Hmm, and `merge` can apparently take 0 arguments
11:26	llasram	,(merge)
11:26	clojurebot	nil
11:26	llasram	,(merge {})
11:26	clojurebot	{}
11:26	llasram	Fun times
12:04	jjl`	llasram: quite a few functions 'do the right thing' with zero arguments
12:08	cbp	(merge) => nil is hardly the right thing
12:08	ddellacosta	cbp: what would the right thing be?
12:08	cbp	{}
12:09	ddellacosta	cbp: but merge doesn't work exclusively on hash-maps
12:09	ddellacosta	although the docs seem to suggest it does...weird
12:10	ddellacosta	huh, the implementation is pretty generic. Not sure why the docs say what they do.
12:13	ndaly	cbp: (seq {}) => nil
12:13	cbp	ndaly: ?
12:14	ndaly	cbp: not sure, just thought it might be relevant for the rationale behind (merge) => nil
12:15	ndaly	something that's merging in a loop will probably need to know when the merge results in an empty map
12:15	TimMc	jjl`: That's a low bar, though. I mean, base cases are kind of a big thing in functional programming.
12:15	ndaly	and nil let's them use a truth test for that
12:15	ndaly	anyway, I don't know enough to know what the right thing would be, but that may be part of the rationale
12:15	TimMc	Nil punning is the worst.
12:16	cbp	{} would be the identity value of merge
12:16	cbp	like how 0 is of +
12:16	ndaly	,(merge {})
12:16	clojurebot	{}
12:16	TimMc	(Worst reason for a design decision, at least.)
12:16	ndaly	,(merge)
12:16	clojurebot	nil
12:17	jjl`	TimMc: and there are many ways to solve them. e.g. the little schemer provides simple rules of recursion to catch them
12:18	TimMc	jjl`: I'm just continually surprised at how many Clojure fns don't support nullary or unary forms.
12:18	jjl`	TimMc: and there's where it comes down to opinion about what 'the right thing' is
12:20	TimMc	&(assoc-in {:a :b} [] 5)
12:20	lazybot	⇒ {nil 5, :a :b}
12:20	edw	Do we have a One True Matrix library? Or something resemblng one? I see clatrix…
12:20	TimMc	It's shit like that.
12:21	TimMc	Not only is the base case not supported, it clearly wasn't even considered.
12:21	seangrov`	&(get (assoc-in {:a :b} [] 5) nil)
12:21	lazybot	⇒ 5
12:21	seangrov`	uhg, wow
12:21	clgv	TimMc: there is a ticket for that or update-in ...
12:21	rplaca	thus foiling my PAAS platform arbitrage edw: core.matrix is headed that way - it can wrap Clatrix and others
12:21	TimMc	,(assoc-in {:a :b} [] 5)
12:21	clojurebot	{nil 5, :a :b}
12:21	rplaca	edw: core.matrix is headed that way - it can wrap Clatrix and others
12:21	edw	rplaca: Ah, thanks.
12:22	edw	rplaca: I don't see a clojure/core.matrix repo on GitHub… Is it unofficial yet?
12:24	rplaca	edw: it's not officially part of Clojure yet, but I think it's on that road
12:24	edw	rplaca: Ah. I'll widen my search.
12:24	rplaca	the subject has been discussed and Rich, et al., are open to the idea of adding it when the time is right
12:25	rplaca	edw: https://github.com/mikera/core.matrix
12:25	edw	rplaca: Thanks. Addin' it to my project.clj
12:25	rplaca	edw: cool
12:29	amalloy	TimMc: for what it's worth, it's not clear what the behavior of (assoc-in {} [] 5) should be, or the equivalent with update-in
12:30	TimMc	amalloy: The result should be 5.
12:30	amalloy	that's a result that's reasonable in this peephole focus, but do you really want to be the guy who tells everyone that assoc-in doesn't always return a map?
12:30	amalloy	{nil 5} is stupid, but there's nothing that's great. {}, 5, throw-an-exception, are all sorta plausible
12:32	amalloy	useful has versions of assoc-in and update-in that do in fact return 5 in that case, but it's not really the kind of behavior i'd welcome in clojure.core - https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/flatland/useful/map.clj#L95-L118
12:32	TimMc	I'm OK with it not always returning a map.
12:32	amalloy	i'd prefer it throwing an exception, personally
12:32	TimMc	I'd understand if people were upset, but... shrug.
12:32	amalloy	and if you want a version that returns 5 (which is a fine thing to want), that's easy to write
12:33	clgv	amalloy: for update-in there is a reasonable default, apply the function to the root map
12:33	amalloy	clgv: that's exactly the same as for assoc-in
12:33	amalloy	you want to make update-in not always return a map; that's going to create as many issues as the current behavior
12:33	TimMc	&(update-in {:a :b} [] (constantly 5))
12:33	lazybot	⇒ {nil 5, :a :b}
12:34	TimMc	&(assoc-in nil nil nil)
12:34	lazybot	⇒ {nil nil}
12:34	TimMc	phweeee
12:34	ambroseb_	clearly that should throw an exception, but clojure.core error handling ..
12:35	amalloy	ambroseb_: well, as a static-typing enthusiast, of course you want it to never return a non-map! but TimMc thinks it's just as clear that it should return 5
12:36	clgv	amalloy: well for update functions that return maps that would be useful. if you use it with a function that does not return a map its your fault. at least the regular use case for empty path works...
12:36	amalloy	let's have it return a Maybe
12:36	amalloy	clgv: i find it useful also; that's why i put it in org.flatland/useful
12:36	jjl`	and how is that going to be any different from using a sentinel value (such as nil) in practice, in a language like clojure?
12:36	TimMc	ambroseb_: Does core.typed support the notion of "non-empty coll"?
12:37	amalloy	but it's hardly the only sensible behavior - i'd argue it's not much better as a default than the current nonsense
12:37	clgv	amalloy: ah ok^^
12:37	ambroseb_	TimMc: yes.
12:37	amalloy	jjl`: Maybe was not a real suggestion
12:37	TimMc	So assoc-in could be described as returning a map if given a non-empty keyseq.
12:37	jjl`	amalloy: you never know. i saw a 2014 java article about a maybe type. and of course they missed the point :)
12:38	ambroseb_	assoc-in is special cased in core.typed, but it falls back on basically Any -> Any https://github.com/clojure/core.typed/blob/master/module-check/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/typed/base_env.clj#L1024
12:38	amalloy	i'm a big fan of haskell and its types, but you can't just dump them into clojure
12:40	ambroseb_	rich declined an enhancement for fixing assoc-in, but I think it's really a job for linters like Dynalint anyway.
12:40	ambroseb_	same as the open ticket about `get` throwing on non-Associative
12:40	amalloy	for linters? how can a static linter fix assoc-in?
12:41	ndaly	it can't, but it can point out pathological uses
12:42	ambroseb_	sorry, Dynalint isn't really a linter, it redefines core vars to include better errors and warnings on undefined behaviour.
12:42	ndaly	interesting
12:42	ambroseb_	I consider assoc-in on empty path & get on non-Associative to be undefined behaviour, so Dynalint would complain if it gets evaluated.
12:43	amalloy	ambroseb_: couldn't the type be [(U nil (Associative Any Any)) (Seqable Any) Any -> (Associative Any Any)]? assoc-in always returns a map
12:43	ambroseb_	amalloy: correct, it's a dumb type either way.
12:43	cbp	:-P https://github.com/clojure/core.typed/blob/master/module-check/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/typed/base_env.clj#L865
12:43	cbp	Just in case comment doesn't work
12:43	ambroseb_	amalloy: ideally there'd be fancy dotted types linking the paths to the output map
12:44	Bronsa	cbp: comment would insert a nil
12:44	ambroseb_	grep for "insane"
12:44	amalloy	cbp: yeah, comment is no good there. the comment is in case #_ doesn't work; exactly the opposite of what you thought
12:45	cbp	:-(
12:45	ambroseb_	cbp: as someone pointed out to me, core.typed uses every kind of comment, and then some
12:46	amalloy	well, actually comment wouldn't insert a nil after all, Bronsa
12:46	amalloy	because this is inside another macro
12:46	amalloy	so comment wouldn't even get macroexpanded, it would confuse the outer macro first
12:47	amalloy	just like you can't write (defn (comment lol) f [x] x) - not because (comment lol) expands to nil, but because defn is baffled
12:47	Bronsa	amalloy: oh, sure. I assumed the wrapping expression was a function call
12:49	ambroseb_	I hear core.typed is in the new 7 languages book?
12:49	ambroseb_	oh core.logic
12:49	ambroseb_	haha, finger memory.
12:50	ambroseb_	anyway, that's awesome.
12:53	ambroseb_	on that note, I hope dnolen isn't still stuck in some airport :)
12:53	ambroseb_	heard he had a nightmare travel to EuroClojure
12:54	TEttinger	I spent 24 hours in transit from australia to california once
12:54	ambroseb_	ouch
12:54	TEttinger	and there were people on my flight who had further to go
12:54	TEttinger	(when the family got back, the car battery was dead too)
12:55	ambroseb_	haha
12:55	TEttinger	there was everything, mechanical failure on a plane, while waiting for replacement there's a bomb threat..
12:56	TEttinger	so I hope dnolen doesn't have to deal with that
12:56	ambroseb_	my travel time to the US when everything goes smoothly is usually 30 hours.
12:56	TEttinger	ouch
12:56	TEttinger	going from asia or europe?
12:56	ambroseb_	Perth, Western Australia
12:56	TEttinger	ah.
12:56	TEttinger	even further
12:57	ambroseb_	yea, I'm sick of it so I'm moving to Indiana.
12:57	ambroseb_	;)
12:57	TEttinger	perth is IIRC incredibly hot, has unusual weather and extremely poisonous wildlife?
12:57	ambroseb_	haha sure!
12:57	TEttinger	which is why the trip didn't go visit
12:58	mdeboard	What's wrong with Indiana
12:58	dbasch	mdeboard: have you been to Indiana?
12:58	mdeboard	dbasch: I am here right now :)
12:58	dbasch	mdeboard: is that where you're from?
12:58	TEttinger	my brother watched a cricket game in melbourne in the summer. the heat was rough
12:59	TEttinger	tasmania was nice though
12:59	mdeboard	dbasch: ya, only been back a few years and moving out again next month
12:59	ambroseb_	I meant Indiana means I don't need to travel 30 hours to get anywhere :)
12:59	dbasch	ambroseb_: it depends on where you want to go. If you want a more central location try Denver or Chicago
13:00	TEttinger	atlanta is where 2 of the airlines have hubs I think
13:00	dbasch	the Traveling Clojurist Problem, also known as TCP
13:00	dbasch	Indiana Pacers, also known as IP
13:00	mdeboard	lol
13:01	TEttinger	but it's hard to beat SF I imagine for meeting clojurists
13:01	ambroseb_	I have conferences in Montreal, St Louis and London, probably a few hours closer than Perth :)
13:01	mdeboard	Indiana has a really modern airport that is very uncrowded, TSA is best I've ever been through (and I HATE the TSA)
13:01	dbasch	SF rocks in that sense
13:01	mdeboard	I will miss Indianapolis airport and Indianapolis traffic the most
13:01	mdeboard	when I move to Austin
13:01	rplaca	but the only place to find Dan Friedman is in Indiana...
13:02	rplaca	:)
13:02	dbasch	SFO is not bad compared to other airports in the US
13:03	amalloy	wait, is ambroseb_ actually moving to indiana? i can't keep track of the real statements in this conversation
13:03	ambroseb_	amalloy: yes, PhD starting at Indiana Bloomington in about a month.
13:04	amalloy	man, i'll have to start saying nicer things about core.typed
13:04	TEttinger	dr ambrose b
13:04	amalloy	now that i'm in striking distance
13:04	dbasch	ambroseb_: funny, a friend of mine is there right now at the ACM Web Science conf
13:05	amalloy	web science? i can't believe there's much science about the web, unless this conference is focused on actual spiders
13:05	dbasch	amalloy: go tell them :P http://websci14.org/
13:05	ambroseb_	amalloy: where are you?
13:05	amalloy	oh, LA. not actually that close, but closer than australia
13:06	amalloy	my sister's getting her phd at purdue, though
13:06	ambroseb_	certainly
13:06	dbasch	I'm in LA too, but only for today
13:06	amalloy	so i've spent two days in indiana
13:06	amalloy	practically a native
13:07	dbasch	my friend speaking at websci is now "Head of Query Understanding" at LinkedIn
13:08	cbp	wat
13:08	dbasch	cbp: exactly
13:08	dbasch	better than another old coworker of mine who called himself "Chief Entomologist"
13:08	clgv	dbasch: you certainly need a head for query understanding :P :D
13:09	dbasch	clgv: and you want to hold on to it
13:09	dbasch	one time I collected all the ways in which people had ended up at britneyspears.com through a query
13:10	dbasch	you wouldn't believe the spelling creativity of the web
13:10	dbasch	(you can tell this was 10 years ago, when Britney Spears was relevant)
13:11	dbasch	$google brittny spiers
13:11	lazybot	[britney spiers 123 remix - YouTube] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goeAUbtolEE
13:11	amalloy	buttery spores
13:11	dbasch	damn, I get britney spears
13:11	dbasch	btirnsy spirss works too
13:12	dbasch	you can find britney spears on google while wearing box gloves
13:12	amalloy	dbasch: by induction, any google search at all yields britney spears, yes?
13:12	dbasch	boxing gloves
13:13	dbasch	amalloy: enough monkeys typing will only create the works of shakespeare if they don't get distracted by britney spears first
13:14	dbasch	it would be a fun game: guess the google result
13:14	dbasch	rianah -> rihanna
13:15	dbasch	google distance is always closer than Levenshtein's
13:21	aconz2	quick q on clojure-contrib libs. I'm looking to use clojure.contrib.java-utils, tho it seems like this has moved and/or been dropped from contrib? seems like a lot of libs listed on http://richhickey.github.io/clojure-contrib/java-utils-api.html have been dropped in the move to the clojure repo
13:21	dbasch	~contrib
13:21	clojurebot	Monolithic clojure.contrib has been split up in favor of smaller, actually-maintained libs. Transition notes here: http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
13:26	aconz2	thanks! @dbasch : could some work be done to update the page I linked? pretty deceiving, tho only as an artifact of googling. I'd be happy to do the work and make a PR if helpful
13:34	amalloy	aconz2: the work that should be done is to delete richhickey.github.io - no official clojure stuff has been hosted in his repo for years
13:35	amalloy	it's all just old and decaying versions of stuff long since superseded by clojure.github.io
13:42	aconz2	amalloy: has an attempt been made to delete already? I mean the problem of "misinformation" is solved for me, but I imagine it would still be an issue for any other new(ish)comer
13:43	xeno__	Given 2 similar web apps written in Rails and Luminus, running on a quad-core i7 with 32GB RAM, would Clojure + jetty be more efficient in resource usage compared with Rails + Unicorn? I will be deploying a single-box app soon and wondered about memory usage and process size.
13:44	mdeboard	xeno__: Withoutknowing anything abou tyour application that's basically impossible to answer. With the JVM you can set max memory usage
13:44	dbasch	xeno__: it's kind of hard to answer that question in the abstract. "web app" doesn't say much about memory usage, the question is more about what you're doing in the backend
13:46	amalloy	xeno__: with rails, memory usage scales pretty quickly with number of processes, right? since you need N different rails processes. whereas the jvm has a high up-front cost just to start a single jvm, but threads are very cheap
13:51	xeno__	amalloy: So you give up, say, 200MB RAM for the JVM but can then get each process using a fraction of a comparable Rails process?
13:51	amalloy	xeno__: it's not close to 200MB
13:51	xeno__	amalloy: What, then?
13:51	amalloy	well, maybe it is. it's hard to say because a lot of it is disk buffers
13:51	amalloy	mmapped jars, etc
13:51	xeno__	amalloy: Typically, I mean.
13:51	dbasch	xeno__ amalloy it also depends on what you're using to run Rails
13:51	amalloy	he said unicorn
13:52	amalloy	not that i'm a rails expert or anything
13:52	dbasch	I only used Passenger, which I believe lets you play with processes and threads
13:53	xeno__	amalloy: Just trying to get some idea of trade-offs for a CRUD app which also does some quick calculations for about 1 in 3 requests.
13:53	amalloy	xeno__: well, okay, maybe it is close to 200MB. i have some clojure servers running, with the java heap size set small, so most of the overhead is the jvm itself. they have a resident set size of around 150MB
13:53	amalloy	i've no idea how much of that they'd be willing to "give back" if there were memory pressure
13:53	xeno__	Just thinking if I have the basic principle correct, ie. allocate so much for JVM then each process is much cheaper?
13:54	amalloy	xeno__: well, there's only one process
13:54	amalloy	threads inside the jvm aren't full OS-level processes, although i confess i'm not sure exactly what they are
13:54	justin_smith	xeno__: unlike in ruby, in the jvm it is viable to have multiple threads in one vm
13:54	xeno__	amalloy: 200/300MB is no big deal for me if there is 32GB in total available.
13:55	dbasch	32GB for a web server. I feel old.
13:55	amalloy	you should have no trouble running just about anything on 32GB
13:55	amalloy	my linode has 3GB and is running five or six different clojure webservers
13:55	justin_smith	xeno__: another data point: I have never had to restart a production clojure app because of a memory leak.
13:56	amalloy	i have!
13:56	dbasch	my crappy mp3 search engine in 1998 handled a peak of 200k queries in one day with 128 mb
13:56	amalloy	i spent weeks, maybe a month, on and off trying to track down a memory leak
13:56	cbp	it certainly didnt use lucene amirite
13:57	justin_smith	amalloy: yeah, wasn't saying it was impossilbe. But from what I hear from ex ruby users at my old job, constantly restarting ruby tasks that had their memory usage balloon uncontrollably was a routine thing
13:57	xeno__	dbasch: Check 'em out at Hetzner. 32GB/quad-core i7 for under 500 quid a year.
13:57	amalloy	yeah, that seemed to happen all the time when i was at geni, justin_smith
13:57	xeno__	justin_smith: Yes, exactly what I'm trying to avoid.
13:57	amalloy	they had a monit task that hunted for ruby processes whose memory usage was too high and automatically destroyed them
13:59	justin_smith	xeno__: from what I can tell, in clojure a task that has memory usage blow up isn't routine, it's considered an anomoly. I have clojure servers with very long uptime, only limited by the need restart in order to deploy updates
13:59	amalloy	yeah, for sure
13:59	amalloy	my clojure servers have uptime that's the same as the machine itself
14:00	amalloy	well, except 4clojure. that one restarts itself all the time because its fundamental requirement is to do stupid stuff (ie, evaluate user-supplied code)
14:00	xeno__	justin_smith: Yes, I'm attracted to what seems to be easier server management with Clojure/JVM compared with Rails
14:01	xeno__	justin_smith: I started writing the app in Rails while learning Clojure and was going to rewrite later in Clojure but now I'm thinking get it done right at the outset.
14:02	amalloy	xeno__: that sounds like a good approach. it'll give you something concrete to work towards while learning clojure
14:02	amalloy	avoid the classic problem of "anyone know an OSS project that wants help from someone who doesn't know how to do anything?"
14:03	justin_smith	xeno__: I think that would be good. And about your above question, I think the only way clojure would use more ram would be a fixed size price you pay at the outset (the size of clojure, size of the jvm), and that size is not enough to flatten a server, and after that it scales much better than ror / unicorn
14:03	xeno__	amalloy: Trouble is you get too deeply into the Rails MVC OO mindset.
14:03	tuft	xeno__: you're probably in a similar situation to me with django. our provisioning is so complex compared to just installing the JVM and deploying fat jars
14:04	xeno__	justin_smith: That was my concern. If there's plenty of RAM available it sounds like JVM is more efficient as the app scales.
14:04	tuft	yeah, real threads always helpful with conserving that shared stuff =)
14:05	justin_smith	xeno__: at my previous place of employment we had an in house clojure web framework that started as a rails replacement
14:05	justin_smith	xeno__: this, as you can imagine, was advantageous in some ways, and in others was an impediment
14:06	justin_smith	it's pretty heavyweight, and in the clojure world we do prefer combining modular libs over big kitchen sink included frameworks, but caribou is out there if you want to try it
14:06	justin_smith	and it does work
14:07	latk	could anyone point me to some more complicated examples of om applications? The example code I have found is pretty limited in scope.
14:07	gtrak	justin_smith: the choice of domain wording can be a little uncomfortable? :-)
14:07	xeno__	justin_smith: Had a look at it a while ago briefly. So it's a Rails clone?
14:08	xeno__	justin_smith: But not heavier than Rails itself?
14:08	gtrak	how would you make a rails clone?
14:08	justin_smith	gtrak: let-caribou.in ? heh, I picked let-caribou since that had kind of a clojure-esque feel to it, and my tech manager decided it should be a .in domain because he was a perv
14:08	gtrak	justin_smith: hahaha
14:09	justin_smith	xeno__: not a rails clone, just developed as a smooth upgrade from rails
14:09	gtrak	well, it doesn't even have to go there, 'let the caribou in to our house? you're crazy?'
14:09	justin_smith	xeno__: so it was a priority to re-implement workflows and functionality that the workplace had grown fond of
14:09	gtrak	it'll wreck all the china and scratch the furniture.
14:09	xeno__	justin_smith: Could be very useful to me then unless I just drop the Rails prototype approach altogether.
14:10	xeno__	justin_smith: Is it being developed actively?
14:11	justin_smith	xeno__: the company divested from clojure, and laid the clojure team off (both of us!)
14:11	justin_smith	we still address bug reports on github, and some day I may start up where I left off with some of the features
14:11	justin_smith	but it is less active after the layoff to be sure
14:12	justin_smith	mind that it has been used in many production sites, so it's pretty stable and mature (if very large)
14:13	xeno__	justin_smith: What's missing at present?
14:14	xeno__	justin_smith: I started out with Luminus.
14:23	Frozenlock	I'll give plenty of love to whoever can solve this https://github.com/dakrone/clj-http/issues/202
14:26	gtrak	Frozenlock: does http-kit actually verify the certs?
14:27	gtrak	I thought at least the server didn't do ssl at all.
14:30	amalloy	gtrak: it uses java's http library, which does verify certs
14:31	amalloy	afaict java doesn't yet support SNI
14:31	gtrak	ugh I hate security
14:32	justin_smith	gtrak: Frozenlock: I've generally gotten the recommendation to do ssl via an nginx layer
14:32	justin_smith	nginx should be in front of whatever you have public facing, regardless
14:32	amalloy	justin_smith: oh, for sure. that's not the problem
14:32	amalloy	they're talking about client-side
14:32	justin_smith	oh, that
14:33	amalloy	if you have one server with nginx serving ssl for two different domains, then java clients get mad
14:34	amalloy	i had some trouble recently with the 4clojure.com server, which also hosts refheap, and does ssl for both of them. browsers can handle it because they have SNI support, but clojure and python do their ssl negotiation before sending the Host header, so nginx can't know which ssl cert to use
14:36	gtrak	at least you hide your lein-in-production behind an nginx
14:36	amalloy	i always thought lein was an abbreviation for leininproduction
14:36	amalloy	german all sounds the same to me
14:37	gtrak	did you konw taht a cbaimrgde uvenisitry stduy...
14:38	arrdem	ow my face
14:38	gtrak	that could be a really simple clojure app
14:39	amalloy	gtrak: that story is actually a bit dubious - it's typically presented with "random" rearrangements that are easier to read than most orderings
14:41	Frozenlock	amalloy: "afaict java doesn't yet support SNI" I hope it's not the case. I've read it's somehow supported since 1.7, but I don't know enough about this particular subject :-(
14:42	Frozenlock	About 4clojure and refheap, did you find a solution? Different servers?
14:42	amalloy	user> (munge "gtrak: that story is actually a bit dubious - it's typically presented with \"random\" rearrangements that are easier to read than most orderings") => "gratk: that sorty is atlucaly a bit douibus - it's tailclypy ptersneed with \"rdanom\" rgmaerenenrats that are eseair to raed than most orirnegds"
14:43	amalloy	basically it works pretty well for short or common words, but things like "ptersneed" or "tailclypy" are pretty tough to figure out
14:43	gtrak	ptersneed is pretty funny
14:44	benzap	amalloy: you need to reduce the amount of characters movements from it's point of origin
14:44	amalloy	Frozenlock: we arranged for refheap's cert to be used in the case of clients that don't support SNI. that works fine because nobody ever uses 4clojure outside of a browser
14:46	ndaly	re: 4clojure.com: "So wait, I can't buy cheap real estate here?" … rofl
14:49	Frozenlock	https://github.com/OpenSourceFieldlinguistics/FieldDB/issues/1435
14:49	Frozenlock	Damned be my limited brain. I don't understand why it doesn't work for Clojure.
14:50	DomKM	Are URI fragments not available in ring request maps? I don't see fragment/anchor/hash in the ring spec and ring mock is not parsing them.
14:50	amalloy	DomKM: they're not sent to the server at all, right?
14:53	amalloy	a difficult scrambled word: dtcnuesrutirg
14:53	cbp	destructuring?
14:53	clojurebot	destructuring is http://clojure.org/special_forms#binding-forms
14:54	amalloy	well, okay, not that difficult. but harder than wehre
14:55	Frozenlock	,(take 5 (slurp "https://www.4clojure.com"))
14:55	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>
14:55	Frozenlock	err
14:56	Frozenlock	Anyhow, how comes slurping works?
14:56	cbp	Frozenlock: what is the issue?
14:56	cbp	(doc slurp)
14:56	clojurebot	"([f & opts]); Opens a reader on f and reads all its contents, returning a string. See clojure.java.io/reader for a complete list of supported arguments."
14:56	amalloy	hm, good question. not sure; i thought that was broken
14:57	cbp	(doc clojure.java.io/reader)
14:57	clojurebot	"([x & opts]); Attempts to coerce its argument into an open java.io.Reader. Default implementations always return a java.io.BufferedReader. Default implementations are provided for Reader, BufferedReader, InputStream, File, URI, URL, Socket, byte arrays, character arrays, and String. If argument is a String, it tries to resolve it first as a URI, then as a local file name. URIs with a 'file' protocol are converted to
14:57	Frozenlock	cbp: clj-http can't handle SNI (https with multiple certs on the server), but `slurp' can.
14:57	cbp	oh
14:57	cbp	sorry i misunderstood :-P
14:57	TimMc	Frozenlock: What happens if you slurp a site with an invalid cert?
14:57	Frozenlock	TimMc: Good question...
14:58	Frozenlock	Anyone has one around?
14:58	gtrak	BOOM goes the JVM
14:58	TimMc	Maybe slurp just ignores the "cert failure" due to SNI.
14:58	DomKM	amalloy: I don't know. I guess I should find that out first.
14:58	TimMc	Frozenlock: https://www.cacert.org/ assuming you dno't have their root cert installed
14:59	amalloy	$google http spec fragment
14:59	lazybot	[RFC 3986 - Uniform Resource Identifier (URI): Generic Syntax] http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986
14:59	DomKM	amalloy: Looks like you're correct. Thanks :)
15:00	Frozenlock	BOOM! javax.net.ssl.SSLHandshakeException: sun.security.validator.ValidatorException: PKIX path building failed: sun.security.provider.certpath.SunCertPathBuilderException: unable to find valid certification path to requested target
15:00	gtrak	just shell out to curl
15:00	TimMc	OK, so it doesn't ignore that kind of failure. :-)
15:01	Frozenlock	technology, y u no work?
15:02	gtrak	security is a pain-fractal
15:02	tuft	software is hard =(
15:03	gtrak	normal software at least creates value :-)
15:03	Frozenlock	security doesn't?
15:03	gtrak	unless of course it's getting hacked, sigh..
15:03	cbp	creates more jobs to maintain it at least
15:04	TimMc	I guess there can't be a pathod-like service that responds with whatever SSL cert properties you specify in the request.
15:08	TimMc	(slurp "https://12345.sni.velox.ch/")
15:09	ndaly	gtrak: "security is a pain-fractal" is now my quote of the day
15:09	TimMc	Great! Your client [Java/1.7.0_51] sent the following TLS server name indication extension in its ClientHello: 12345.sni.velox.ch
15:10	Frozenlock	So, java 1.7 indeed supports TLS
15:10	TimMc	So slurp is doing the right thing.
15:10	Frozenlock	clj-http ---> javax.net.ssl.SSLException: hostname in certificate didn't match: <12345.sni.velox.ch> != <alice.sni.velox.ch> OR <alice.sni.velox.ch> OR <carol.sni.velox.ch>
15:11	gtrak	Frozenlock: most definitely httpclient doesn't use the same code paths.
15:12	gtrak	Frozenlock: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/HTTPCLIENT-1119
15:12	gtrak	check your version
15:12	Frozenlock	gtrak: https://github.com/dakrone/clj-http/issues/202
15:13	gtrak	oh, heh.
15:13	Frozenlock	Thanks anyway ;-)
15:14	gtrak	well, maybe clj-http is using an older version, is what I meant.
15:14	cbp	i think http-kit client should work? :-P
15:14	gtrak	nope, I'm wrong.
15:17	gtrak	pain-fractal can be a black-metal overtone band.
15:57	benzap	is there a way to do exception handling on (load-string "")? It doens't seem like my try catch statement is catching anything
15:59	amalloy	there aren't a lot of good reasons to call load-string
16:00	jcromartie	benzap: how do you mean? (try (load-string …) (catch Throwable t …)) works fine
16:00	jcromartie	when the code loaded from the string contains errors
16:07	shaun_	Om as string cursor question: why does this fail? https://gist.github.com/shaunlebron/bca0fd36f26dee6fc6dd
16:10	ndaly	I'm trying to understand the statement, "Elegance and familiarity are orthogonal."
16:10	ndaly	is there any chance someone knows in what context Rich said it?
16:10	shaun_	petehunt do you use Om?
16:10	petehunt	shaun_: no i don’t really know clojure very well
16:10	petehunt	and i don’t have time to get good right now
16:10	bbloom	ndaly: you don't really need the context to process that statement
16:10	nullptr	petehunt: do you have a hammock?
16:11	bbloom	ndaly: it's simply the easy vs simple distinction rehashed
16:11	petehunt	nullptr: at work yes, not at home :P
16:11	shaun_	petehunt: I can imagine, well, thanks for react
16:11	bbloom	ndaly: elegant == simple, familiar == easy
16:11	bbloom	ndaly: assuming you've watched simple made easy
16:11	ndaly	I haven't watched simple made easy
16:11	petehunt	shaun_: ;) lots of people over here. we owe the cljs community for a lot as well
16:11	ndaly	but that does illuminate it some, thank you
16:11	bbloom	~simplemadeasy
16:11	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
16:11	bbloom	~easy
16:12	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
16:12	bbloom	~simple
16:12	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
16:12	bbloom	shrug
16:12	bbloom	ndaly: you can find it. it's worth watching for sure
16:12	ndaly	I'll look for it. Thanks.
16:14	benzap	I have this, am I doing something wrong with (try? http://pastebin.com/6aEsBs1j
16:14	ndaly	think this is it, if anyone else is interested: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy
16:15	oskarkv	ndaly yes. best video ever
16:15	Frozenlock	Pff, Rich Hickey is good, but he's no Carl Sagan :-p
16:16	oskarkv	:p
16:16	nullptr	"...billions and billions of state changes, but only one identity..."
16:16	oskarkv	hehe
16:16	shaun_	I told my intern simple != easy when teaching her clojurescript
16:16	gtrak	haha
16:16	shaun_	she interpreted that as meaning clojurescript is very difficult even though it's simple
16:16	Frozenlock	shaun_: clojurescript is neither simple nor easy ...
16:17	arrdem	Rich also isn't a god sadly :P
16:17	shaun_	Frozenlock: I thought that was the whole argument, that cljs is simple
16:17	arrdem	Frozenlock: simple compared to javascript perhaps
16:18	Frozenlock	ok, I could accept this comparison
16:18	gtrak	Frozenlock: the idealized CLJS is simpler than the current state of things.
16:18	bbloom	it's certainly simpler than javascript... up to, but excluding, javascript interop
16:18	bbloom	which of course has all the complexity of javascript itself, and then some
16:19	shaun_	Frozenlock: if you can learn the syntax in 15 minutes, I would say simple: https://github.com/shaunlebron/ClojureScript-Syntax-in-15-minutes
16:19	amalloy	benzap: map is lazy
16:19	arrdem	shaun_: syntax is almost universally easy :P
16:19	Frozenlock	shaun_: I'm pretty sure this doesn't cover dealing with externs
16:19	benzap	amalloy: so it's evaluated outside ofthe try?
16:19	amalloy	your map immediately returns a lazy seq, then you exit the try/catch scope, then you realize the seq at some later date
16:19	arrdem	benzap: yep
16:19	Frozenlock	Also, "b isn't defined" is a terrible error message :-p
16:19	benzap	hmm, how would I ensure it's not lazy? wrap it in (seq?
16:20	arrdem	benzap: doall
16:20	gtrak	if clojure didn't already exist, we might not accept the principles, but the principles and the kinds of programs you can write with those abstractions are what's 'simple'.
16:20	amalloy	well, (try (doall (map ...))) is the smallest change
16:20	amalloy	or i guess using mapv instead is smaller
16:21	benzap	ah thank you
16:21	benzap	mapv did the trick
16:21	amalloy	i'd recommend using a more explicit side-effecting construct like doseq, since i bet you don't care about the results of load-string at all
16:21	shaun_	Frozenlock: true, you mean interop? or externs for advanced mode
16:21	benzap	hmm
16:21	benzap	i might care about the side effects, it depends
16:22	amalloy	not the side effects, the return value
16:22	Frozenlock	shaun_: advanced compilation
16:22	amalloy	tbh i'm a little surprised load-string actually returns anything. i would have guessed it returns nil
16:26	arrdem	amalloy: well load returns the value of the eval of the tail form AFAIK, so that's not surprising..
16:27	amalloy	i just would never use load in a context where i want a return value; that's what eval is for. so i imagined that it doesn't give you a return value
16:27	Bronsa	arrdem: man you have short memory. load returns nil, you even patched t.e.jvm's load to return nil
16:28	arrdem	Bronsa: why do you think I leave type signatures and verbose docs behind? I can't remember this crap.
16:28	arrdem	nor should I...
16:29	Bronsa	wut https://twitter.com/raymcdermott/status/482222051659632640
16:30	arrdem	er....
16:31	Frozenlock	For speed?
16:33	arrdem	Bronsa: HAH the reason I patched t.e.jvm is that clojure.core as usually is silly. (eval-string "(+ 1 2)") -> 3
16:33	bbloom	Bronsa: odd, i wonder why
16:34	arrdem	s/eval-string/load-string/g
16:35	Bronsa	bbloom: given the core.async impl I really cannot figure out what could go into the compiler
16:36	bbloom	Bronsa: maybe just some of the analysis needed to trigger the state machine rewrite
16:38	arrdem	bbloom: but what for? Clojure has eschewed TCO and other state machine rewrites for a long time..
16:39	arrdem	bbloom: see amalloy's argument for this directed at me in the logs a few days ago, and Rich's old comments on TCO on Scheme lists.
16:40	bbloom	arrdem: i don't think i have those logs & our various bots seem down...
16:40	amalloy	a few days ago? i don't remember talking about this recently
16:41	bbloom	arrdem: anyway, it's not just for TCO
16:41	bbloom	arrdem: core.async uses the state machine rewrite
16:41	bbloom	but there dozens of other useful reasons to do state machine or other transforms to avoid stack consumption
16:41	Bronsa	bbloom: that seems a bit unlikely given that it just moved to t.a.jvm for that
16:41	bbloom	maybe he had another one in mind and needs some real compiler analysis data
16:42	Bronsa	bbloom: oh you mean the ssa transformation?
16:42	bbloom	the ssa transform depends on some ad-hoc analysis
16:42	bbloom	but yeah, the ssa transform may be useful for other compiler stuff
16:43	bbloom	maybe there's a particular hot path in datomic or something that needs some optimization that ssa would simplify, that could justify some local transforms in the compiler
16:43	bbloom	probably not worth speculating, tho
16:43	arrdem	bottom line: it's Rich's language and he's gonna do as he sees fit.
16:44	Frozenlock	inb4 clojure fork
16:44	arrdem	Frozenlock: inb4 inb4
16:44	bbloom	i mean, why even bother writing your own language if you're not gonna do as you see fit? :-P
16:45	hyPiRion	isn't the go block only able to detect visible <! and >! calls?
16:46	bbloom	hyPiRion: yes, but the compiler wouldn't help much with a dynamic extent transform b/c called functions are already compiled to byte code and need to support hot swapping vars
16:50	benzap	i'm wodnering, is there any clojure functions that sortof work like a rollback?
16:51	benzap	I want to try and load-string some scripts, but I want to make sure that I can rollback if anything doesn't evaluate
16:51	benzap	or does load-string take care of that?
16:51	hyPiRion	bbloom: Yeah, I wasn't thinking about the compiler analysis part though. Neither Go nor Erlang could do that either.
16:52	bbloom	huh? i'm 99% sure that go does inter-function analysis optimizations, at least within a single compilation unit
16:52	amalloy	there's no such thing, benzap. load-string can perform arbitrary side effects, like delete your hard drive, if that's what the code you're loading says to do. how do you roll that back?
16:52	arrdem	benzap: clojure's namespace and var binding structures are not first class and are not trivial to manipulate or restore. Consequently what you are asking for is very, very hard.
16:53	amalloy	arrdem: easier, it's impossible
16:53	m_m	Hi. What i can put at 'x' place for getting true: (= 2400 (reduce (fn [a b] (* a b)) x [1 2 3 4]))
16:53	amalloy	m_m: do you understand what that code is doing?
16:53	gtrak	amalloy: arrdem: benzap: you just need an 'inverse' function that takes a function, easy-peasy.
16:53	Frozenlock	benzap: if you want to deal with atoms you could use https://github.com/Frozenlock/historian, but otherwise I don't see how this could be done.
16:54	bbloom	Bronsa: https://gist.github.com/philandstuff/299cda371c7e74b03f18#q-other-possible-extensions
16:54	gtrak	it'll run the bytecode backwards
16:54	gtrak	or forwards on an anti-jvm
16:54	benzap	hmm yeah, i'm probably going to be careful how I approach this
16:54	amalloy	gtrak: inverse :: IO b -> (a -> b) -> a -- this would be awesome
16:54	bbloom	Bronsa: had a brief chat w/ rich about generators/yield back when i gave a talk in NYC on Fipp
16:54	m_m	amaloy: I think that I need to add 1000 to vector [1 2 3 4]...but I dont know how. I understend rest of the code.
16:54	gtrak	it's like a turing machine, you just turn the tape the other way.
16:55	bbloom	Bronsa: basically i used reducers to emulate generators, but he suggested i try core.async's >! to emulate yield
16:55	hyPiRion	bbloom: Not generally I think?
16:55	amalloy	m_m: observe that reduce is being called with three arguments, a function, x, and a vector. you can't change the vector by changing x, of course - do you know what reduce does when it gets three args?
16:55	hyPiRion	Let me try to come up with an example
16:56	bbloom	Bronsa: thread here: https://twitter.com/BrandonBloom/status/356873464461791234
16:56	m_m	amalloy: So my x will be an in line function which will be conj 1000 to vector [1 2 3 4] ?
16:57	gtrak	the hard part is making sure that the inverse function halts.
16:57	amalloy	m_m: what does (reduce f x y) do?
16:57	bbloom	this is what i was trying to do w/ the CPS transform, where i labeled functions with :cps metadata... never did get it working, but i was operating at the macro level too
16:57	bbloom	core.async puts locals in to fields on state machine object
16:57	m_m	amalloy: Use funtion 'f' on x and y ?
16:58	gtrak	((inverse +) 3) -> ([1 2] [0 3] [-1 3 1] ...)
16:59	gtrak	((inverse delete-my-hard-drive)) -> (for [x universe-of-possible-hard-drives] x)
16:59	amalloy	here is an example: ##(reduce #(cons %2 %1) () '(a b c d))
16:59	lazybot	⇒ (d c b a)
16:59	arrdem	"declare a fn as async"....
16:59	amalloy	that's quite different from ##(#(cons %2 %1) () '(a b c d)), isn't it?
16:59	lazybot	⇒ ((a b c d))
17:01	m_m	amalloy: Aahhh i see...
17:01	amalloy	so (reduce f x y) is definitely not the same as (f x y), but rather (f (f (f x (first y)) (second y)) (third y)) ... and so on until ys is empty (and pretending here that third is a function that exists)
17:02	sveri	Hi, I just found this thread, trying to store an uri: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/datomic/4bZUz2JjlbI/hKB_s3t5nIoJ Is there still no way to store a uri?
17:03	hiredman	sveri: you can create your own data reader that creates uri objects
17:04	hiredman	sveri: it looks like according to that exchange you can store uris just fine
17:05	alandipert	or ye olde read-eval
17:05	hiredman	sveri: seems likely you are getting tripped up on loading a file but not evaluating it
17:05	hiredman	alandipert: sure
17:05	alandipert	##{:x #=(list java.net.URI. "http://foo.com")}
17:06	hiredman	alandipert: but that only works if the code is evaulated, in which case, why not just call the constructor?
17:06	alandipert	+1 tagged literal though
17:06	hiredman	,(read-string "{:x #=(list java.net.URI. \"http://foo.com\")}")
17:06	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EvalReader not allowed when read-eval is false.>
17:06	hiredman	feh
17:06	hiredman	anyway, you won't get a URL object
17:17	aaelony	Can a defrecord defined in namespace A be instantiated in namespace B ? I've seen this (http://cyrax.wordpress.com/2013/07/22/clojure-importrequireuse-defrecord-from-another-namespace/) but I still get an "Unable to resolve classname" error. Perhaps due to bad aliasing... any help appreciated.
17:20	bbloom	aaelony: use the -> factory function that gets generated
17:20	bbloom	,(defrecord Point [x y])
17:20	clojurebot	sandbox.Point
17:20	bbloom	,(->Point 5 10)
17:20	clojurebot	#sandbox.Point{:x 5, :y 10}
17:20	bbloom	,(fn? sandbox/->Point)
17:20	clojurebot	true
17:21	aaelony	bbloom: Thanks. I am using (->Point 5 10) and tried (->sandbox/Point) but not (sandbox/->Point)
17:21	bbloom	aaelony: the -> is just part of the name
17:22	bbloom	,`->Point
17:22	clojurebot	sandbox/->Point
17:22	bbloom	,'you-can<-have-#strange->names%like*this+
17:22	clojurebot	you-can<-have-#strange->names%like*this+
17:23	aaelony	bbloom: that's perfect. Works like a charm, many thanks...
17:23	bbloom	it's not syntax, see (doc defrecord)
17:23	noonian	there is also (map->Point {:x 5, :y 10})
17:26	aaelony	On a similar note, suppose I have several defrecords defined and I want a way to instantiate an appropriate defrecord based on a keyword. I'm currently doing a cond on the keyword and if it matches then instantiating. But maybe there is a better way...?
17:26	bbloom	aaelony: any reason you can't just use the function directly?
17:26	bbloom	ie are you serializing these keywords or anything like that?
17:26	bbloom	->Point is a value
17:26	bbloom	it's just not round-trip serializable
17:27	bbloom	,(defrecord Rect [l t r b])
17:27	clojurebot	sandbox.Rect
17:28	bbloom	,(let [cmd [:rect 5 10 15 20]] (apply ({:rect ->Rect :point ->Point} (first cmd)) (next cmd)))
17:28	clojurebot	#sandbox.Rect{:l 5, :t 10, :r 15, :b 20}
17:29	bbloom	just def a lookup table
17:29	aaelony	bbloom: well, here's what I'm trying to do. I have n file types, each in their own format. Each file type has a corresponding defrecord that knows about the fields expected in each file. Each defrecord also has a function that knows how to extract file datestamp information embedded in the filename (which unfortunately is different for each filetype). I know at runtime which file I'm interested in and I want th
17:29	aaelony	e dispatch to work to get the right parsing of the datestamp info
17:30	noonian	aaelony: if you know the set of possible file types then a lookup table as bbloom suggests should work fine
17:30	noonian	you could also use multimethods for dispatch here
17:31	aaelony	noonian: I already rely on the defrecords for other things as well. I'd love to be able to have a lookup table from keyword to defrecord that would instantiate the appropriate defrecord.
17:31	bbloom	aaelony: a map of format to line parser seems like the no brainer way to go
17:32	aaelony	bbloom: so defrecords are out?
17:32	bbloom	defrecord is totally orthogonal
17:32	noonian	,(defrecord Markdown [content])
17:32	clojurebot	sandbox.Markdown
17:32	noonian	,(defrecord Org [content])
17:32	clojurebot	sandbox.Org
17:32	aaelony	bbloom: I kinda just want polymorphism
17:33	bbloom	aaelony: but you want polymorphism per file type, right?
17:33	noonian	,(def lookup-table {:md ->Markdown, :org ->Org})
17:33	clojurebot	#'sandbox/lookup-table
17:33	aaelony	yes
17:33	aaelony	noonian: that looks exactly like what I need
17:33	bbloom	aaelony: do you have any pressing need for open polymorphism?
17:33	aaelony	thanks
17:33	bbloom	aaelony: that's exactly what i showed you, go look at my example about :rect
17:33	bbloom	heh
17:34	bbloom	but i suspect that this isn't what you want really
17:34	bbloom	do the different file formats have the same info in them?
17:34	bbloom	or are they totally unrelated?
17:34	aaelony	bbloom: maybe I didn't understand initially. Let me try noonian's answer
17:34	aaelony	the file formats are completely unrelated
17:34	bbloom	and how many records are in each file type?
17:34	bbloom	order of magnitude. 10? 10000?
17:35	noonian	aaelony: my answer is the same idea as bblooms, i was just trying to illustrate a possible implementation
17:35	aaelony	each file type can have as many records as it needs
17:35	aaelony	noonian: yes, that is correct. I just didn't understand what was meant without the example implementation.
17:36	aaelony	bbloom: less than 30 records
17:36	noonian	but do the files represent the same things? with the format being just the representation
17:36	bbloom	aaelony: don't bother with defrecord
17:36	bbloom	just use amap
17:36	bbloom	it's overkill here
17:36	noonian	because in that case you might just want a single record with a polymorphic function to instantiate them from different formats
17:36	aaelony	yes, I like maps a lot. But I wanted to try dispatch with defrecords
17:37	bbloom	but you want polymorphic construction
17:37	bbloom	you said the records from different file types are totally unrelated
17:37	aaelony	correct
17:37	bbloom	defrecord is for optimizing field storage (totally unecessary for small row counts) and for type dispatch on the record itself
17:37	bbloom	you're dispatching on the file format... once.... before any records are created
17:38	noonian	to hook into the record dispatch you need to use protocols and have a record instance in the first place. since you want polymorphic construction you need to use a different method to get the instance in the first place
17:38	aaelony	there are 2 unrelated concepts, defrecords for the data in each file, and defrecords for data in each file's name
17:38	bbloom	aaelony: don't bother with defrecords
17:38	aaelony	unfortunate
17:38	bbloom	{:format :type1 :path "some/file"}
17:39	bbloom	put :type1 and :type2 in a map and look up a parse function from that
17:39	bbloom	no reason to bring complexity like types in to this
17:39	aaelony	maps are nice
17:39	aaelony	well this is one area where it would have been nice to have a more OO view
17:40	bbloom	aaelony: not that i can tell
17:40	aaelony	suppose there are functions like parse-x where the implementation will differ depending on the file name format
17:41	aaelony	there are many X's too
17:41	noonian	you can think of a map as an object whose entries are its fields
17:41	noonian	there are more ways than records to get polymorphism in clojure
17:41	bbloom	(def parsers {:format1 some-parser-fn :format2 some-other-fn})
17:41	aaelony	yes yes
17:41	aaelony	of course
17:41	bbloom	if you need open dispatch:
17:41	bbloom	(defmulti parser :format)
17:41	aaelony	bbloom: I'd prefer open dispatch
17:42	noonian	yeah, multi-methods are the way to go then
17:42	bbloom	(defmethod parser :format1 [file-map] (fn [line] ...)))
17:42	aaelony	I have used multi methods in the past, and they were very slow
17:42	bbloom	you're going to do ONE multimethod dispatch per file
17:42	bbloom	i promise you, they are fast enough for that
17:42	sveri	hiredman: I see, I guess, thank you :-)
17:43	aaelony	anyways, I appreciate the help. I've got the defrecord solution working the way I want it.
17:44	aaelony	bbloom: I believe you. Thanks again
17:44	noonian	you could also just take an optional argument which is a parse fn or another lookup table that you merge with the first one
17:45	aaelony	cool
17:55	ivan	why does putting code into :repl-options {:init ... without a (do wrapper magically break things with "Wrong number of args (2) passed to [whatever]"?
17:56	bbloom	ivan: i'm not an expert on this, but i think the init code is merged in to a bigger do in some way when you have plugins or layered protocols
17:56	bbloom	seems like the rule is just always use do
17:56	ivan	that's depressing
17:56	ivan	thanks
17:56	bbloom	agreed
17:57	bbloom	seems like it should be straightforward to put it in to a nested do & not have this problem
17:57	bbloom	shrug
17:57	bbloom	layered procotols => i meant profiles
18:00	ivan	my new security-hole-free REPL setup is { cat init.clj; cat; } \| java -Xmx192M -Dfile.encoding=UTF-8 -cp "$(lein classpath)" reply.ReplyMain
18:00	ivan	I need that second cat to prevent it from quitting immediately, but unfortunately I need to EOF/ctrl-c a second time to exit or something
18:01	amalloy	ivan: i don't understand what problem you're talking about. :repl-options {:init (println 'hi)} works fine for me
18:01	ivan	amalloy: that's probably just println. try a load-file or an eval.
18:01	amalloy	if you mean :repl-options {:init ((println 'hi) (println 'bye))}, then of course that doesn't work
18:02	amalloy	:repl-options {:init (eval '(println 'hi))} works fine too, of course. what is a specific thing that doesn't work for you?
18:02	ivan	:init (load-file "init.clj")
18:03	bbloom	amalloy: iirc i ran in to an issue where a plugin adds repl-options & lein tries to compose them
18:03	bbloom	dunno if something has changed
18:04	amalloy	that load-file works fine too. i'm with bbloom: some middleware is putting stupid stuff in your project
18:04	ivan	amalloy: apparently it works without (do ...) if you don't have some lein plugins in your ~/.lein/profiles.clj
18:04	amalloy	try lein pprint
18:04	amalloy	i have plugins in my profiles. you just have one that breaks things
18:04	amalloy	probably in the manner bbloom describes
18:05	ivan	:plugins [[lein-ancient "0.5.4"]] was responsible
18:05	amalloy	(ie, by concatting together two lists into a list)
18:05	bbloom	amalloy: i think it's lein that does it
18:05	bbloom	at least that's what i recall
18:05	bbloom	it assumes your :init value is a list beginning with do
18:05	bbloom	calls `next on it, then concats them in to another do
18:06	ivan	sorry, wrong culprit, lein-ancient is fine
18:06	ivan	:plugins [[mvxcvi/whidbey "0.2.2"]]
18:07	amalloy	bbloom: i'd guess that it doesn't assume that, but rather just merges lists by concatting them
18:07	amalloy	as a generic merge on lists, not specific to repl-init
18:08	cespare	I'm having trouble with lein checkouts, where occasionally running 'lein jar' puts the .class files for a checkout dependency (say, mylib) into target/classes/. Once those are in there, they shadow any changes to the mylib source, so my project is broken until I run lein clean.
18:08	cespare	This is with :aot :all in the profile I'm using for lein jar btw.
18:09	cespare	also I've spent a long time trying to get a reliable repro without luck. I've seen it happen on a fresh pair of lein projects once, but now I can't make it happen again.
18:10	cespare	(It's an issue for our team because this breaks our projects for us once or twice a day on average)
18:10	amalloy	AOT compilation is a creeping misery, spreading sadness to all it touches
18:12	amalloy	right, i think https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/f73a9998ff2992ab7574448e5884e08417c21526/leiningen-core/src/leiningen/core/project.clj#L512-L518 is all that's responsible for combining your repl-init values
18:13	amalloy	if you were to lein-pprint, you'd see that your repl-init is set to something bad like ((load this) (print that))
18:13	bbloom	amalloy: is metadata "inherited"?
18:13	bbloom	seems like the base profile could specify a sensible merge policy for repl-init
18:13	amalloy	bbloom: i dunno, he does all sorts of weird gyrations with metadata
18:13	amalloy	i don't try to keep up
18:14	bbloom	nor do i, i do the absolute minimum leinfu to make the couple plugins i use work... frankly, i totally understand rich's preference for CLASSPATH=whatever java -jar
18:14	amalloy	it does look like the base profile could have :repl-init ^{:reduce (fn [a b] `(do ~a ~b))} ()
18:15	amalloy	but i dunno
18:15	stephenjudkins	i have asked this question before, but: where does the documentation for `->` live?
18:16	arrdem	#(clojure.repl/doc ->)
18:16	hiredman	,(doc ->)
18:16	clojurebot	"([x & forms]); Threads the expr through the forms. Inserts x as the second item in the first form, making a list of it if it is not a list already. If there are more forms, inserts the first form as the second item in second form, etc."
18:17	stephenjudkins	thanks
18:18	cespare	amalloy: okay, I got a repro with :aot
18:18	cespare	so it's not actually that.
18:19	cespare	*without :aot
18:19	cbp	lol arrdem
18:19	amalloy	cespare: if you can reproduce it without a :main or :aot i'll be impressed
18:21	amalloy	(because :main implies AOTing the main namespace, which typically entails AOTing everything under the sun)
18:25	cespare	amalloy: yeah, you're right about :main.
18:26	cespare	Any ideas how to fix this? It seems like a bug
18:30	amalloy	i stay away from AOT as much as i can. what solution you choose will depend on why you have a :main and what tradeoffs you're willing to make
18:31	cespare	amalloy: all our projects have mains
18:31	cespare	they are servers
18:31	cespare	the problem i'm seeing is that it (apparently non-determistically) breaks checkouts
18:32	cespare	*deterministically
18:33	cespare	at this point, the main other alternative we're considering is getting rid of checkouts and going back to our old solution of symlinking our shared_lib code into all our projects.
18:33	cespare	which is pretty nasty, but at least doesn't break unexpectedly.
18:33	amalloy	you're being too generous - it nondeterministically breaks all kinds of things, checkouts being just one specific case. but i also stay away from checkouts, so i don't have any particularly good advice for you
18:34	cespare	so to summarize, you're saying that lein is broken?
18:34	amalloy	s/lein/clojure, really. aot just blows
18:34	amalloy	cespare: you can put your shared_lib in a maven repo, and release it when there's a new feature, updating dependencies as needed
18:34	amalloy	it's a hassle, but it's reproducible and works
18:34	cespare	we change it very rapidly along with our other code
18:34	cespare	that overhead wouldn't be acceptable.
18:35	hiredman	you could just not aot anything
18:35	cespare	but I need a main, yes?
18:35	cj3kim	Hi. I'm new to clojure. I downloaded a library called gaussian_elimination and I have placed it into my project directory that has a src/core.clj and project.clj file. Gaussian_elimination has the same structure. How do I require gaussian_elimination code in my project src/core.clj code?
18:35	cespare	our projects are mainly ring servers
18:36	amalloy	you can have a main which doesn't load anything else at compile time, but compiles it at app startup with a dynamic require
18:36	hiredman	cespare: there are tons and tons of possibilities
18:36	amalloy	it'll slow down startup significantly, but that's the price you pay
18:36	possibilities	but there's only one @possibilities
18:36	amalloy	~lein
18:36	clojurebot	lein is http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen
18:37	hiredman	cespare: clojure comes with a clojure.main class that has a handy -m option
18:37	hiredman	cespare: you can write some java stubs
18:39	hiredman	cespare: you can create war files that run in some container instead of jars that run their own http server (althought the easiest way to do that stupidly aot compiles your code, but fixing that takes an afternoon)
18:41	hiredman	speaking of which
18:43	hiredman	amalloy: I think we talked about lein-ring aot breaking stuff at some point, I made some changes to a fork and now it doesn't aot https://github.com/hiredman/lein-ring/commit/aa2f9ad12502e3502af03087f6bb2e72e850a917
18:43	cespare	what if I put ^:skip-aot on my main
18:44	hiredman	cespare: why have a :main then?
18:44	hiredman	cespare: just leave it out of your project.clj
18:44	hiredman	use java -cp … clojure.main -m foo.bar to launch
18:45	cespare	ok, i'll give that a shot.
18:45	amalloy	hiredman: you must have a keyboard macro for "TODO: delete"
18:45	hiredman	I should
18:46	hiredman	it needs lots of clean up for a "release" but I did a lein install and have been using it for all the clojurebot bits that use lein ring
18:48	cespare	hiredman: where do I get the clojure jar to put on my cp if I'm using lein?
18:49	amalloy	java -cp `lein classpath` # lol
18:49	cespare	ah
18:49	hiredman	cespare: lein uberjar jars up all of a projects deps in to single jar
18:49	amalloy	well, the # lol is there because this is not really a great idea
18:49	hiredman	that includes clojure
18:49	amalloy	really you want the uberjar
18:50	cespare	separate issue, but yes we normally use uberjar.
18:51	hiredman	the uberjar includes clojure in it, including the clojure.main class
18:52	cespare	cool, got that working.
18:52	cespare	I think we'll be able to purge most of the aot.
18:52	cespare	thanks guys
18:59	bra	I'm working on tuning a clj application via visualvm and the sampler is telling me that clojure.lang.Keyword.hasheq is my most CPU-hungry hotspot.
19:00	bra	This is a bit surprising to me, since IIUC keywords are interned and their hashes are computed at construction time.
19:00	bra	Is there something I'm missing here?
19:00	danneu	been stuck with node for a while on client projects. found out about this a couple days ago https://github.com/koajs/koa -- finally made node bearable
19:00	hiredman	bra: are you processing json?
19:00	bra	hiredman: Nope.
19:00	hiredman	ah well
19:00	turbofail	are you doing anything else that might convert strings to keywords?
19:01	hiredman	bra: some other kind of deserialization?
19:01	bra	I don't believe I'm converting strings to keywords anywhere
19:02	bra	The primary hot loop is taking strings and a vec of [:keyword parser-fun] pairs and generating a map of {:keyword parsed-string-bit}
19:02	amalloy	hasheq doesn't suggest to me that he's creating keywords, but that he's comparing them
19:02	amalloy	or using them as keys in a large map, i guess is more like it
19:02	bra	Yep.
19:03	bra	Each map has ~36 keys, and I'm generating a few thousand per second in test.
19:03	hiredman	ah well, that makes sense
19:04	hiredman	the call to hash eq is a required part of sticking keys in the map
19:04	hiredman	bra: what version of clojure?
19:04	bra	hiredman: 1.5
19:04	bra	1.5.0
19:05	amalloy	if the main thrust of your work is building large hashmaps, then no matter how fast hashing is, it will take a large part of your computational time
19:05	hiredman	1.6 has some hashing changes, but I think those mainly effect the performance of hashing of collections
19:06	bra	Thanks all.
19:06	amalloy	you might be able to reduce the amount of rebucketing that goes on by creating the maps all in one go rather than incrementally? i'm not sure
19:06	hiredman	1.6 may have a better distribution of hashcodes, but I am not sure, and I forget if that would even matter for keywords, they could just use the identity hashcode I think
19:07	amalloy	like, (apply hash-map (apply concat vec-of-kvs))
19:07	bra	Would replacing my map with a record be a fruitful approach?
19:07	amalloy	not with 36 keys
19:07	bra	Ah, I'll test the all-at-once approach.
19:07	bra	kk
19:08	bra	Why does the key count affect the performance?
19:08	amalloy	records perform best for small numbers of keys, because they have no structural sharing
19:08	Bronsa	hiredman: IIRC in 1.6 keywords use the murmur3 hash of the internal strings rather than their .hashCode
19:08	hiredman	obviously you should partition the keys up and do the merges in parallel using fold
19:09	gfredericks	amalloy: neither do array-maps
19:09	amalloy	uh huh...?
19:09	bra	amalloy: FWIW these are never mutated after creation. It's all field accesses.
19:10	gfredericks	amalloy: I thought you were advocating for records over regular maps?
19:10	gfredericks	oh wait no
19:10	hiredman	bra: if it is a fixed set of keys, use a vector assign each key to a spot in the vector
19:10	gfredericks	you just meant records with a whole bunch of keys are bad?
19:10	amalloy	mhm
19:11	gfredericks	english!
19:11	hiredman	(you could even use a transient or array while building up the vector if you need too)
19:12	hiredman	if you aren't generating keywords it must be a fixed set I guess
19:12	amalloy	or just use an array as the canonical store. light speed!
19:12	hiredman	zoom
19:13	amalloy	then of course you'll have to write (case k :foo (aget arr 0) :bar (aget arr 1)) and so on, and you'll probably pay for hasheq in the case dispatch
19:13	bra	:D
19:13	hiredman	amalloy: write a macro that translates the keywords to numbers for you
19:13	bra	Right, I was a bit concerned about the API there.
19:13	bra	Macro might be useful. Hm.
19:14	amalloy	hiredman: ztellman/vertigo. go big or go home
19:14	hiredman	amalloy: sure
19:30	cj3kim_	Hi. I've been trying to require code in lein, but I've been having trouble. Here's a gist with the relevant description and files https://gist.github.com/anonymous/39f3a8148eeba430db14
19:31	noonian	cj3kim_: there are a few problems, firstly you should only have one require form in a ns form, and you should use the keyword :require instead of the function require
19:31	hiredman	~namespaces
19:31	clojurebot	namespaces are (more or less, Chouser) java packages. they look like foo.bar; and corresponde to a directory foo/ containg a file bar.clj in your classpath. the namespace declaration in bar.clj would like like (ns foo.bar). Do not try to use single segment namespaces. a single segment namespace is a namespace without a period in it
19:32	noonian	i would also guess that the namespace you are trying to require is gaussian.elimination and then you want to refer to the functions gaussian and vector
19:32	noonian	oh, nvm i didn't see the other files
19:33	amalloy	noonian: you can have multiple requires in a namespace
19:33	noonian	yeah, try merging the multiple use and require statements i.e. (:use [gausian.elimination.matrix] [gausian.elimination.vector] ...)
19:33	amalloy	it's not stylistically popular, but it's equivalent
19:33	noonian	hmm, i didn't know, but surely it's not idiomatic
19:33	cj3kim_	hmmr
19:34	amalloy	the problem is not in his ns statements, but probably in where he's put the files
19:35	noonian	yeah, it cant find gaussian, that would also happen if it is failing to compile
19:36	cj3kim_	noonian: how do I know if it's failing to compile? And, what can I do to compile it?
19:37	noonian	if you have a repl open, i would try evaluating (require 'gaussian.elimination.gausian :reload) and see if you get an error or not
19:38	cj3kim_	I ran it and it returned a "FileNotFoundException"
19:38	cj3kim_	noonian:
19:38	amalloy	why do you have a file named core.js which contains clojure code? and where is promethix.core?
19:38	noonian	what is the directory structure and file names of your source tree?
19:39	cj3kim_	A moment please. Need to type stuff out in a gist
19:40	noonian	gaussian.elimination.gaussian should be at path src/gaussian/elimination/gaussian.clj with the leiningen default src paths
19:40	cj3kim_	noonian: I am using lighttable, an editor, as well. C
19:40	noonian	also, which file is the filenotfoundexception for? if it's a different source file of yours then your should try requiring that one
19:41	cj3kim_	noonian: Copy/pasting all relevant info to a gist. :)
19:43	cj3kim_	noonian: https://gist.github.com/cj3kim/abac1f85ce1b4cb50af8
19:44	hiredman	https://github.com/LightTable/LightTable/issues/1520 learning clojure using lighttable seems like it would be hell
19:45	cj3kim_	hiredman: what would you recommend in its stead?
19:45	amalloy	cj3kim_: whatever text editor you're already comfortable with
19:45	amalloy	and lein repl
19:46	hiredman	preferably something that has some kind of mode where it will help you match up brackets, but that is not a strict requirement
19:47	nullptr	yeah, i think show-paren-mode is sufficient when you're starting -- paredit would be a bit much for a newbie
19:50	amalloy	cj3kim_: everything there seems okay (except you misspelled gaussian in your repl example)
19:50	amalloy	you'd probably have had an easier time just pushing the whole git repo for someone else to repro with
19:51	noonian	cj3kim_: (require 'gaussian.elimination.gausian :reload) you mispelled gaussian gausian
19:51	noonian	i was using light table for a while but using lein repl for the repl
19:54	amalloy	noonian: that's true, but it's also breaking in his ns clause, where it is spelled correctly, so i'd guess his dependencies are not present somehow
19:55	amalloy	like maybe you haven't restarted your repl since adding the dependency? but i have no idea what light table does automatically for you
19:56	DomKM	Anyone know why protocols are typically prefixed with `I`? Is this because of their similarity to Java interfaces?
19:57	amalloy	that is why, DomKM. but it's not a universal convention; you're free to ignore it
19:57	amalloy	(just like prefixing java interfaces with I isn't universal)
19:58	DomKM	amalloy: cool, thanks.
19:58	noonian	amalloy: i agree, i asked him to require it by hand to see if one of that files deps was missing
20:07	cj3kim_	noonian: amalloy: Thanks for the help
20:15	ttasterisco	hm, prefixing java interfaces with I was never the norm. that's from .net
20:15	ttasterisco	java interfaces were always -able
20:16	systemfault	List…able? :P
20:16	ttasterisco	Runnable
20:16	ttasterisco	Callable
20:16	ttasterisco	Iterable
20:16	ttasterisco	etc
20:17	amalloy	ttasterisco: it leaked in from .net
20:17	amalloy	it's not used in the jdk itself, but lots of people who write java do it
20:17	ttasterisco	damn migrants
20:17	ttasterisco	burn them
20:17	bbloom	Bronsa: now i'm all self-conscious screwing up and force pushing on public repos :-P
20:17	amalloy	how dare they force their lambdas on us
20:18	bbloom	i usually abuse the crap out of my own fork, but now i have observers....
20:18	amalloy	bbloom: your nick is confusing to type. double-single-double? i propose you change your last name to Blloom
20:19	bbloom	amalloy: does bb<tab> not handle it?
20:19	amalloy	well, i actually do bbl<tab>
20:19	amalloy	but this time i was doing a google search to see if i could guess what repo you were talking about
20:19	bbloom	so does some random guy in #ruby, who has never actually talked to me, but mentions me with some regularity
20:20	cj3kim	amalloy: noonian: pushed to git for help. https://github.com/cj3kim/promethix
20:20	Bronsa	bbloom: oh just ignore me. if it makes you feel better I screw up a lot on t.a/t.a.j and I cannot even force push because of autodoc
20:20	cj3kim	noonian: my general feeling is gaussian_elimination isn't compiling
20:21	bbloom	Bronsa: not just you, but you made me aware of the audience
20:21	amalloy	cj3kim: version 1.0.0 of gaussian_elimination chooses to call its namespaces gaussian_elimination.gaussian
20:21	amalloy	rather than what's on github, which is gaussian.elimination.gaussian
20:21	cj3kim	amalloy: how do you know this?
20:22	amalloy	i opened up the jar and read it
20:22	cj3kim	and how can i check in the future?
20:22	amalloy	are you sure you want to use this library? it looks pretty slapdash
20:22	Bronsa	bbloom: then I'll pat my back for being successful in screwing you up. pushing will never feel the same
20:22	bbloom	Bronsa: i'm super careful when specifying what-to-push-where, but when i work on my own tracked branch, i view the server as a backup & push constantly
20:23	cj3kim	ah, i see. thank you
20:24	amalloy	cj3kim: it looks like https://github.com/skatenerd/gaussian_elimination/tree/358e9e9cb3c8c6f40b4684550c854874f3860173 is the code you are actually using
20:24	cj3kim	amalloy: oh my god >_>
20:24	amalloy	hm?
20:25	cj3kim	my friend had downloaded an older version of that library which used all dots instead of the underscore
20:25	cj3kim	i just wasted three hours!
20:25	amalloy	i don't think your friend's download is relevant? that jar is being fetched from maven
20:26	amalloy	and dots are actually the "latest" code (ie, two years old), which he hasn't ever released to maven (but it's the latest git)
20:26	cj3kim	we used this code <-https://github.com/skatenerd/gaussian_elimination/blob/master/src/gaussian/elimination/gaussian.clj
20:27	cj3kim	thanks for your ehlp
20:27	amalloy	right. that code is newest, not older
20:27	amalloy	and he just never released it
20:28	amalloy	anyway, have fun. it looks like the author probably knows his math but doesn't know his clojure
20:28	bbloom	i think "meth" is my new favorite symbol
20:29	amalloy	bbloom: if you've been doing meth i need to tell you it's not just a symbol, it is an addictive and dangerous drug
20:29	amalloy	see, eg, the AMC documentary Breaking Bad
20:31	bbloom	amalloy: saw that. stellar investigative journalism. i need to figure out how to get out of the meth business and in to that empire business thing
20:34	cespare	If i no longer have a :main, is there another way to specify the starting point for my lein repl?
20:34	cespare	starting namespace I mean
20:34	hiredman	there is no such thing as a starting namespace
20:35	noonian	if you have a user namespace on the classpath it will use that though
20:35	hiredman	noonian: you keep answering a question that is slightly different then the asked one
20:36	noonian	in this case i don't know the answer
20:36	cespare	hiredman: seems to me you very likely understand what I'm asking
20:36	hiredman	cespare: sure, you want lein to require and in-ins in to a given namespaces when you run lein repl
20:37	cespare	sounds about right, if that's what it does when you do :main myproj.core
20:37	cespare	is there another way to ask lein repl to do that?
20:37	ttasterisco	cespare: in there repl, there's no "main". if you mean when doing `lein run`, then you can use the -m
20:37	hiredman	cespare: I would suggest either you'll be in an editor, and evaluating the file at hand in the editor will in-ns the repl's state to the same namespace
20:38	ttasterisco	*the
20:38	cespare	hiredman: Yep, that's true 95% of the time. The other 5% it's convenient for the repl to automatically load the main namespace.
20:38	hiredman	cespare: why?
20:38	cespare	it's not a big deal, just wanted to know if there's a workaround, now that I'm removing :main from all my projects.
20:39	hiredman	cespare: how likely is it that you are going to be using stuff in the main namespace?
20:39	cespare	quite likely, if i'm just playing around a bit.
20:39	hiredman	cespare: sure you could use something like the repl-init options
20:39	cespare	i've been writing clojure for the past 9 months or so, and I know from experience that it's something I occasionally want to do.
20:40	cespare	hiredman: there we go.
20:40	cespare	I see :repl-options { :init-ns foo.bar }
20:40	hiredman	in my experience using lein run means I am doing performance testing of some functionality of one particular namespace on an ec2 node
20:41	hiredman	so I would have in-ns to the particular namespace anyway to start fiddling with it
20:41	synkte	What's the best way to seed a database in clojure?
20:41	amalloy	cespare: try `lein help sample` next time you are looking for some lein feature
20:42	amalloy	(this is the same as leiningen's sample.project.clj on github, so you can look there instead if you prefer)
20:42	cespare	hiredman: sure, understood. It's just that starting out in a commonly used namespace of my project is better than not
20:43	hiredman	cespare: I think lein doing that kind of thing encourages people to form incorrect ideas about namespaces as something that contains in some way the execution of code
20:43	TimMc	cespare: If you still need a main entrance point but don't want AOT, I wrote lein-otf a while back.
20:44	tuft_	cespare: the trick i'm using is creating a user.clj in the project that's just a bunch of requires, if we're talking about the same thing
20:44	cespare	TimMc: hey, neat!
20:46	TimMc	cespare: You can do the same trick yourself with less infrastructure (just have a tiny AOT'd main ns that dynamically requires your real entrance point and calls it) but lein-otf is a drop-in.
20:47	TimMc	I actually don't know if I'd use lein-otf myself these days; it adds a potential complexity cost to the project and an explicit approach + plenty of comments might be better.
20:48	cespare	I think I'm just gonna go with the clojure.main -m ... approach for now.
20:49	cespare	Is there some PSA about AOT causing all kinds of problems that I've somehow missed since starting to use clojure?
20:50	noonian	getting burned by AOT is a clojure right of passage
20:50	TimMc	No kidding.
20:52	hiredman	https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure/Bs70_PUj-TY is maybe the first anti aot screed, a bit dated by now I am sure
20:53	hiredman	https://groups.google.com/d/msg/clojure/Bs70_PUj-TY/azR1gNleT_oJ good for a chuckle
20:58	cgag	i'm using clojurescript and trying to do the equivalent of rangy.createRange() by doing (.createRange js/rangy), but running into undefined is not a function am i doing something obviously wrong?
20:59	TimMc	hiredman: The C-in-C bit?
21:00	bbloom	Bronsa: have you found a need to differentiate let and loop bindings at all?
21:01	bbloom	Bronsa: for eclj i differentiate between locals via let, jvm classnames, and of course vars... i haven't needed to differentiate let & loop at all, but i definitely need to figure something out for object fields
21:02	bbloom	Bronsa: for that, i'm torn between (symbol-macrolet [x (.-x this#) ... and true fields support
21:02	ddellacosta	cgag: is rangy getting pulled in properly?
21:02	bbloom	Bronsa: but seems like loop is just a shorthand for fn really, if you have tail calls like i do
21:03	Bronsa	bbloom: in ta every local has a :local field that indicates where it comes from
21:03	Bronsa	bbloom: uhm, there are some differences between loop/fn locals wrt type hints & primitive support
21:03	bbloom	Bronsa: hm, interesting
21:04	Bronsa	bbloom: not sure if that is a problem at all but fn args can only be long/double primitives while loop/let locals can be whatever primitive type you want
21:04	bbloom	i was looking at :local, but noticed loop & let seemed to mostly follow the same code paths
21:05	Bronsa	bbloom: yeah I think in tej we never need to differenciate between :let/:loop locals
21:05	bbloom	Bronsa: that's good to know, thanks. doesn't affect my environments, but will affect me when i get to the compiler
21:05	Bronsa	but I'm not 100% sure, let me check
21:05	bbloom	(hints, i mean)
21:06	cgag	ddellacosta, now that I'm trying to use it with just pure js I'm not as confident as I was. The code fails in my test.js file fails even though it runs in the console, don't think it's clojurescript related anymore.
21:06	ddellacosta	cgag: ah, okay. That happens too. But it sounds to me like rangy wasn't getting pulled in properly, perhaps.
21:10	bbloom	Bronsa: luckily, i don't have to abide by the rules for eclj, so i'm going to implement symbol-macrolet & use that for fields :-)
21:10	Bronsa	bbloom: yeah I checked, I never need to differenciate between :loop and :let locals
21:10	bbloom	Bronsa: cool
21:11	bbloom	Bronsa: any crazy thing about field symbols i should know? or is (intelligently) replacing foo with (.-foo this#) seem sane?
21:11	Bronsa	bbloom: I was just thinking about that.
21:11	Bronsa	oh yeah
21:11	Bronsa	bbloom: you cannot (set! (.-foo this#) bar) I believe
21:12	Bronsa	I might be wrong on that one though
21:13	Bronsa	bbloom: oh you indeed cannot but that's a compiler bug that I submitted a patch for, lol
21:13	bbloom	heh
21:13	Bronsa	nothing else comes to mind then
21:14	bbloom	,(deftype A [x])
21:14	clojurebot	sandbox.A
21:14	bbloom	,(.x (A. 1))
21:14	clojurebot	1
21:14	bbloom	,(deftype A [^:unsynchronized-mutable x])
21:14	clojurebot	sandbox.A
21:14	bbloom	,(.x (A. 1))
21:14	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: x for class sandbox.A>
21:14	bbloom	^^ interesting....
21:14	Bronsa	bbloom: yeah mutable fields are private
21:14	bbloom	makes sense, but i didn't think rich believed in encapsulation :-P
21:15	Bronsa	bbloom: mh if you use symbol-macrolet I belive shadowing will be problematic? also using the symbol in macros
21:15	bbloom	Bronsa: that would be an issue if symbol-macrolet was a macro, but i'm going to implement it in the interpreter
21:16	Bronsa	bbloom: probably a better approach would be replacing the field at macroexpansion time
21:16	bbloom	Bronsa: there really isn't a "macro expansion time" in eclj
21:16	bbloom	it's interleaved with evaluation
21:16	bbloom	the assumption is that macros are pure & terminate
21:17	Bronsa	I wish I could make the same assumption for clojure macros
21:17	bbloom	again, i have the benefit of not having to follow the rules :-)
21:17	Bronsa	I have to do crazy things like rebuilding the entire namespace map every macroexpansion because somebody could intern vars at macroexpansion time
21:17	Bronsa	and midje actually does it.
21:18	bbloom	you're trying to match jvm/clj proper, i'm aiming for rough source-level compatability for idiomatic code
21:18	bbloom	lol fucking midje
21:18	Bronsa	that's exactly what I thought
21:19	bbloom	interning happens via an effect in my system, so i can intercept it
21:19	bbloom	i implement the dynamic nature of namespaces, but via continuations
21:19	bbloom	another luxury you don't have :-)
21:19	bbloom	but then again, your stuff is actually useful
21:19	bbloom	so there's that :-P
21:20	Bronsa	bbloom: me and ambrose were wishing clj namespaces were IRefs a while ago
21:20	bbloom	and setting fields with (.-whatever works fine for me. so macrolet it is!
21:20	bbloom	Bronsa: for watches?
21:20	Bronsa	yep
21:20	bbloom	would be nice
22:03	akurilin	Quick prismatic schema question: is there a way of enforcing values of map keys being not nil outside of using predicates? As in, say I specify {:foo [{:bar "baz}]} as schema, {:foo nil} will validate correctly for some reason
22:17	bbloom	Bronsa: amusingly, see the "Notes:" here: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw61/CLHS/Body/s_symbol.htm
22:18	bbloom	"The special form symbol-macrolet is the basic mechanism that is used to implement with-slots."
22:18	bbloom	with-slots is basically what i want for fields
22:18	bbloom	everything old is new again :-P
22:18	trptcolin	the HyperSpec - that’s pretty intense
22:19	bbloom	if you're going to implement something, you gotta do your homework :-)
22:20	trptcolin	:) that’s why i went straight to ztellman’s github when i decided to write a little code-walking macro for this book
22:21	trptcolin	not that this little faux-library is a comparable effort to what you’re undertaking ;)
22:25	Jaood	trptcolin: are you writing a book about clojure?
22:25	trptcolin	Jaood: yeah, macros specifically
22:26	Jaood	oh nice
23:33	mlakewood	Hi all. I just stumbled across component https://github.com/stuartsierra/component
23:33	mlakewood	it feels like this might have some overlap with Protocols etc. could somebody explain the differences?
23:44	trptcolin	mlakewood: component is built on top of a protocol: https://github.com/stuartsierra/component/blob/030fe57eeb2f1ac0d0675d420db9614b78ecc857/src/com/stuartsierra/component.clj#L4-L12
23:44	mlakewood	Oh ok. thats good to know. Thanks!
23:47	Frozenlock	Oh Gooood. Less than one week away from the Canada's Anti-Spam Legislation.
23:48	Frozenlock	Why can't these lawmakers STOP making new laws? They just screw up anyway.
23:57	boltR	is there a way to throw an exception using fnil?
23:57	boltR	(fnil inc (throw (Exception. "foo")))
23:58	boltR	or can I only use an if-else for throwing exceptions
23:59	dbasch	boltR: you can throw exceptions anywhere, but I fail to grasp why you would want to use fnil for that