#clojure – 2014-06-07

2014-06-07

13:53	arrdem	Bronsa: config-map branch is up.
13:55	bobbrahms	1
13:57	Bronsa	arrdem: looks fine, thanks for the docstrings :3
14:00	arrdem	Bronsa: there's more where that came from :P
14:21	Frozenlock	Is there a :subdomain field in compojure?
14:21	Frozenlock	...or do I need to parse it myself from the host?
14:31	augustl	is it ok for my "app instance" (stuart sierra style) to have atoms, or should I go all in and have my business logic return a new version of the app instance, or something like that?
14:32	augustl	given that my app instance will be called from multiple threads (a servlet) managing that return value seems nasty..
14:39	justin_smith	augustl: with concurrency, the only way to have the app instance return a new version of itself is by allowing some coordination of threads, and that is what atoms and refs are for
14:41	augustl	is there a way to atomically get the value of an atom _and_ set it to a new value?
14:41	augustl	in this case it's for my app shutdown function, where I want to do stuff with an atom but ensure that no new items are added while I'm shutting down
14:41	justin_smith	(doc swap!)
14:41	clojurebot	"([atom f] [atom f x] [atom f x y] [atom f x y & ...]); Atomically swaps the value of atom to be: (apply f current-value-of-atom args). Note that f may be called multiple times, and thus should be free of side effects. Returns the value that was swapped in."
14:42	augustl	I don't want the value that was swapped in, I want the value that was there before the swap :)
14:42	justin_smith	augustl: your shutdown function is the arg to swap!
14:42	augustl	reset! also returns the new, not the old value
14:42	augustl	justin_smith: ah, of course :)
14:43	augustl	swap! won't guarantee that my function is the last one to run, though..
14:44	justin_smith	you want something else for proper locking, atoms imply that retries are OK
14:44	justin_smith	they are not a locking construct
14:44	justin_smith	(doc lock)
14:44	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
14:44	augustl	justin_smith: yeah sounds like I want something else :)
14:44	justin_smith	(doc locking)
14:44	clojurebot	"([x & body]); Executes exprs in an implicit do, while holding the monitor of x. Will release the monitor of x in all circumstances."
14:44	justin_smith	(locking your-atom ...) may be what you want
14:45	justin_smith	but then it is up to you to ensure there are no deadlocks, livelocks, etc.
14:45	justin_smith	it is very low level stuff
14:45	augustl	what I _really_ want is for my system to not modify my app state while it's shuttting down
14:45	augustl	say shutdown is called while a thread processes a request, for example
14:45	justin_smith	also it only really works if everything that uses that atom in a way you care about uses the locking statement
14:45	justin_smith	it is brittle
14:45	Bronsa	augustl: I mean, you could be a really awful person and do something like user=> (def a (atom 0))
14:46	Bronsa	user=> (let [p (atom ∅)] (swap! a (ƒ [old p] (reset! p old) (inc old)) p) @p)
14:47	justin_smith	augustl: then maybe what you really want is for shutdown to stop all the threads first
14:47	augustl	I guess ideally I would like to control the executor that invokes my app, so I can poll it until there are no active threads and then shut down
14:47	justin_smith	(all the other threads that is)
14:47	augustl	justin_smith: yeah :)
14:47	augustl	not sure how to best handle that since this is typically done automatically by jetty/servlets
14:47	justin_smith	maybe (shutdown-agents) does the trick? it should not shut down until they are all done
14:48	augustl	perhaps I should have an additional executor for my own app
14:48	augustl	sounds like a lot of extra threads though
14:48	augustl	justin_smith: looking it up!
14:48	justin_smith	you can use jvisualvm to look at the threads that exist in your app at runtime, and to see if shutdown-agents really stops all the ones you care about
14:49	augustl	there are some operations in my system that I want to make completely serial anyway.. So perhaps taking control of the thread pools makes sense in my case
14:49	justin_smith	no if ring / jetty is using it's own threadpool that shutdown-agents doesn't know about, then your back in low level land again I think
14:49	justin_smith	*now
14:49	augustl	having my app support getting invoked by anyone at any time from any thread sounds like a world of coordination hurt
14:50	justin_smith	augustl: maybe you want a serialization mechanism, I like java.util.concurrent.SynchronizedQueue
14:50	augustl	yeah that sounds nice
14:50	justin_smith	so instead of invoking things directly other code puts events on your queue
14:50	augustl	I wonder how large a servlet/jetty thread pool typically is
14:51	augustl	50 or so extra threads won't hurt that much I suppose ;)
14:51	justin_smith	then the thread pool you control decides how to handle events, and when to stop handling them, etc.
14:51	justin_smith	very narrow and easy to control surface of interaction
14:51	augustl	yeah this sounds very pleasant :)
14:51	augustl	except from the extra threads of course, but then again that's just a gut feeling, no idea if it's a real problem
14:52	justin_smith	maybe you can be more lenient and use a queue with a length other than 0 - synchronizedqueue is very strict - it blocks until the previous contents leave
14:52	justin_smith	well you decide how many threads are dispatched from the requests in the queue
14:53	justin_smith	and you can use for example agents or futures that share clojure's nicely handled thread pool and you can bind the ones you are using and manually control those
14:53	justin_smith	will still using the shared pool
14:53	justin_smith	*while
14:55	augustl	making it a TODO for now, looking forward to implementing this
14:56	augustl	onwards to the actual business code for now though ;) will use an atom, and solve shutdown by taking control of threads executing my code later
15:01	justin_smith	augustl: also, core.async is another paradigm for addressing these same concerns / coordination issues
15:01	augustl	justin_smith: is core.async good for doing RPC? Or is it more of a queue system?
15:01	augustl	as in, get a request, return a response
15:02	justin_smith	augustl: well, queues are one way to coordinate RPC (among other things they can do)
15:02	justin_smith	it is about handling and sending messages
15:02	augustl	haven't done that before.. But I guess all you need is some kind of request ID
15:03	justin_smith	right, you would have an intake worker, and then assorted handlers, and the request would have to include the info needed to respond
15:03	justin_smith	instead of a request ID you can pass the open socket to the client
15:03	justin_smith	the open socket the client is connected to I mean
15:04	augustl	ah, that makes sense yeah
15:04	augustl	no need to create an id when one already exists :)
15:04	justin_smith	going with that whole functional passing state to functions idea
15:04	justin_smith	right
15:11	tolstoy	Does om/transact! and om/update! really take a tag, and do they really show up in the tx-listen callback? I'm not seeing them.
15:29	tolstoy	Ah. transact! expects a "korks" argument, even if the path is the root. An arity issue, I suspect.
15:37	borkdude	does anyone happen to know what merge-by is in scala?
15:39	pdk	hey, when you're writing the LICENSE file for a new project
15:39	pdk	is it ok to abbreviate your name in the copyright notice
15:43	Glenjamin	i'd err on the side of caution, but you're better off asking a lawyer if its important
15:43	pdk	like just f.m. last vs. first middle last
15:43	clojurebot	Pardon?
15:49	pdk	http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap4.html
15:49	pdk	looks like a recognizable abbreviation is okj
16:01	Frozenlock	Copyright Frozenlock 2014
16:05	Frozenlock	Btw, how does one proves his identity when using 'official' names in a copyright? It's not like there's only one John Smith in the world.
16:05	Frozenlock	*prove
16:06	Frozenlock	We need namespaces for names :-p
16:18	arrdem	Frozenlock: you can provide a contact method and/or handle to add more bits of information to an otherwise useless name :P
16:18	arrdem	Frozenlock: most of my stuff is (c) Reid "arrdem" McKenzie
16:18	arrdem	where "arrdem" is unique to me AFAIK
16:19	Frozenlock	Which one is the useless one? Reid Mckenzie, or arrdem? :-p
16:20	arrdem	Frozenlock: your "John Smith" is pretty useless :P
16:20	roppongininja	light table v sublime text + sublimerepl?
16:21	roppongininja	or any other better alternatives (no time to fvck around with emacs)
16:22	Frozenlock	better alternatives? Emacs... No time to fuck around emacs? Well... use Emacs and don't fuck around!
16:22	Frozenlock	I'm so funny today...
16:22	arrdem	then apparently you have no time to get used to the current top rated Clojure repl...
16:22	arrdem	Light Table's repl is famous for being a "maybe works" still in development afair.
16:22	Bronsa	roppongininja: leaving emacs aside, I've heard cursiveclojure is pretty good
16:23	Bronsa	and should Just Work™
16:23	yeoj___	but hey it's saturday. thats what saturday is for.
16:24	yeoj___	actually for me cider just started deciding it didn't understand any of the classpath business going on so i'm trying to figure out what went wonky
16:24	yeoj___	then i'll get back to work
16:33	yeoj___	for somereason cider connects to the repl, but gevise me "class not found exceptions" everywhere... i didn't have this problem yesternight. i'm also getting "Cannot decode message" in emacs, something about the nrepl middleware
16:33	yeoj___	i made something borken.
16:41	s_kilk	Hi all, is anyone here using Clojure web servers with a SQL backend in production? I have a few questions related to handling SQL migrations.
16:45	dbushenko	s_kilk, try http://flywaydb.org/
16:50	s_kilk	@dbushenko, thanks, I'll look into that. do you use it?
16:52	Frozenlock	Eh... I wanted to activate a SSL certificate today... but Namecheap email servers are down. :-(
16:53	Frozenlock	(and they send to SSL stuff to the domain email)
16:53	Frozenlock	*the
16:56	dbushenko	s_kilk, yes
16:59	s_kilk	dbushenko, thanks!
17:06	_pr0t0type_	Hey Guys, so I know I can use reify to implement an interface. however, how do implement other methods within that reify call? When I try to, I get a "java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Can't define method not in interfaces"
17:07	Glenjamin	_pr0t0type_: you can implement multiple interfaces
17:09	_pr0t0type_	Glenjamin: I see, so there is no way to inline a definition right in reify without another interface
17:09	Glenjamin	not as far as i know
17:10	_pr0t0type_	Glenjamin: thanks
17:40	JokerDoomWork	Any recommendations for excellent Lispy/Clojurey books?
17:41	bbloom	~book
17:41	clojurebot	book is http://www.pragprog.com/titles/shcloj/programming-clojure
17:41	bbloom	~books
17:41	clojurebot	books is programming clojure
17:41	bbloom	~onlisp
17:41	clojurebot	excusez-moi
17:41	bbloom	clojurebot: onlisp is http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisp.html
17:41	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
17:42	JokerDoomWork	wth just happened
17:42	bbloom	clojurebot: schemer is http://scottn.us/downloads/The_Little_Schemer.pdf
17:42	clojurebot	Alles klar
17:42	bbloom	JokerDoomWork: i'm telling clojurebot some stuff to help answer book related questions here in irc
17:43	Jaood	bbloom: isn't that warez?
17:43	Jaood	the little schemer pdf
17:43	bbloom	Jaood: is it?
17:43	bbloom	it was 2nd link on google
17:43	bbloom	shrug
17:43	JokerDoomWork	Eh, I'm ok on the Paul Graham, I try to steer clear of demagogues
17:44	JokerDoomWork	I'm jk, I'll check it out
17:44	Jaood	bbloom: as far as I know there's no official pdf for that book but I may be wrong
17:44	bbloom	JokerDoomWork: all of pg's other dealings aside, On Lisp is pretty much the definitive Common Lisp book
17:46	JokerDoomWork	bbloom, I actually am a fan of his writings, at least his style, but I've always assumed learning lisp from him would turn me into him on lisp, which I don't want...
17:46	Glenjamin	"with bottom-up programming as the unifying theme"
17:46	Glenjamin	this intrigues me
17:46	Glenjamin	as i'm generally of the opinion that top-down gives better results
17:47	Glenjamin	i may have to buy this
17:47	Glenjamin	or just download it for free, apparently
17:47	Hodapp	It's not that top-down gives better results, it's that a lot of languages don't provide for the sort of composition of structures that makes bottom-up even possible.
17:56	bbloom	Glenjamin: Hodapp: is is the case with any dichotomy/duality .... the answer lies in the middle
17:56	bbloom	there's no correct answer, you need to do a little bit of both
17:57	bbloom	the reason for trumpeting the bottom up approach is b/c it is/was was common/supported/encouraged
18:02	Hodapp	As is the case with any dichotomy/duality, the answer may or may not lie in the middle.
18:03	Hodapp	Claiming that it is a dichotomy and therefore that the right answer must lie in the middle
18:03	Hodapp	...can tend to lend some equivalence to a side that may not be appropriate.
18:04	Glenjamin	which side is that? ;)
18:05	Hodapp	Either one.
18:07	Hodapp	Both could be wrong. One could be wrong. It's not an automatic "both are correct".
18:08	justin_smith	a claims that PI is 3.14... b claims it is 3, Some things are not subjective and not helped by compromise
18:11	Glenjamin	on a continuum from bottom-up to top-down, i'm not sure there's a third way
18:11	justin_smith	middle out?
18:13	justin_smith	even Paul Graham talks about the need to alternate between Top Down and Bottom Up in On Lisp IIRC - the significant thing is that in most languages Bottom Up isn't even feasible
18:13	JokerDoomWork	I'm so entrenched in Top down decomposition I have trouble even imagining what bottom up even means
18:14	justin_smith	JokerDoomWork: imagine that you have all your infrastrcuture, all your libraries and data structures implemented. Now write the code that would use that infrastructure.
18:14	justin_smith	next, start implementing the stuff that makes that code valid.
18:15	justin_smith	this especially makes sense in a syntax-creation-happy lang like common lisp
18:16	JokerDoomWork	but didn't I have to implement all those things first, that seems like I'm starting from the top
18:18	justin_smith	no, you write the code, then the syntax and libraries that makes it compile
18:18	JokerDoomWork	Oh I see
18:18	justin_smith	tdd can get into that kind of thing
18:18	JokerDoomWork	I do that quite a bit actually, Hrmmm, I just never thought of it as bottom up, I just consider it, pretending that I have done the hard parts haha
18:18	JokerDoomWork	tdd?
18:18	JokerDoomWork	oh test driven development
18:31	Glenjamin	Interesting, I think I'll have to read this now
18:32	Glenjamin	"no, you write the code, then the syntax and libraries that makes it compile" <- i would describe this as top-down
18:33	justin_smith	Glenjamin: really? so what would you call bottom up?
18:33	Glenjamin	writing the syntax and libraries first
18:34	justin_smith	I think of it is the structure of the implementation vs. what usage looks like - bottom up starts with usage, top down starts with structure
18:34	Glenjamin	oh, i would have used the terms in the opposite way :D
18:34	justin_smith	http://www.paulgraham.com/progbot.html <- here is where graham describes bottom up
18:35	justin_smith	"Experienced Lisp programmers divide up their programs differently. As well as top-down design, they follow a principle which could be called bottom-up design-- changing the language to suit the problem."
18:36	Glenjamin	i guess that's a meet-in-the-middle sort of thing
18:36	Glenjamin	from wikipedia, on top-down: "In a top-down approach an overview of the system is formulated, specifying but not detailing any first-level subsystems. Each subsystem is then refined in yet greater detail, sometimes in many additional subsystem levels, until the entire specification is reduced to base elements."
18:37	Glenjamin	i would do that, but replace "specify" with "implement"
18:38	justin_smith	"implementing but not detailing"?
18:38	kenrestivo	bbloom: all generalizations destroy themselves. including that one.
18:39	kenrestivo	:-P
18:41	Glenjamin	justin_smith: doesn't fit that sentence very well, but sort-of, You call code you wish you had
18:42	justin_smith	Glenjamin: I also sometimes do refactoring this way (though it is easier in a stricter language) - I make the change I want in a few pivotal places, and then just follow the hyperlinks emacs offers to compilation errors until it all makes sense again
18:43	platz	My idea of bottom-up is rather than building the control flow first and then implementing the details, you construct primitives that compose in the way that will be able to solve your problem.
18:43	platz	and then having all your building blocks putting them in the final flow is the last step
18:44	platz	which speaks to the "utilities you wrote for the first program will also be useful in the succeeding ones" idea in the article
18:44	justin_smith	platz: well, that is kind of what I meant by writing the code in the way you think it should look before implementing the details - though that is a much better way of putting it because it is more explicit about the extending the language part
18:44	Glenjamin	That fits my perception. I prefer to build downwards to discover what building blocks I need
18:44	platz	justin_smith: I don't think that's the same, that seems more like tdd
18:46	justin_smith	platz: your right, I was thinking sloppily, in my head the thing I was doing that was not yet implemented was language building blocks, but I in no way indicated such a thing
18:46	justin_smith	*thing I was using
19:36	JokerDoomWork	so reflection in Clojure, do I need to use the normal java facilities?
19:36	JokerDoomWork	Or is there better support in clojure for reflection as a languauge feature?
19:46	AWizzArd	Any AI devs around?
19:52	justin_smith	JokerDoomWork: there is clojure.reflect
19:52	justin_smith	and there are some other, easier to use libs too
19:52	justin_smith	sometimes it suffices to just use bean to find what I want
19:52	justin_smith	,(bean java.io.File)
19:52	clojurebot	{:enum false, :interfaces #<Class[] [Ljava.lang.Class;@cdd309>, :declaredConstructors #<Constructor[] [Ljava.lang.reflect.Constructor;@133fb54>, :simpleName "File", :package #<Package package java.io, Java Platform API Specification, version 1.6>, ...}
20:27	pandeiro	any thoughts on the easiest way to create a new lein project /within/ the pwd instead of creating a new directory?
20:34	justin_smith	pandeiro: why?
20:35	justin_smith	lein new whatever; mv whatever/* .; rmdir whatever
20:35	pandeiro	justin_smith: my workflow is: i create a project as a bare remote repo, clone it to a local dir, then do the scaffolding
20:36	pandeiro	sure i guess that is what i thought of wrapping in a script
20:36	pandeiro	then the complexity came in with not knowing which arg would be the project name
20:36	pandeiro	`lein new schwa` vs. `lein new ouija schwa`
20:38	amalloy	pandeiro: why clone the bare repo? create a bare repo, then create a project with lein new, then git init; git remote add the bare repo
20:38	justin_smith	pandeiro: "${@: -1}" in bash
20:38	justin_smith	and yeah, amalloy's suggestion is what I do
20:40	mwelt	hi there
20:40	AWizzArd	Moin mwelt.
20:40	mwelt	the leiningen chan seems dead so maybe here is some one who can help me :)
20:40	AWizzArd	Worth a try.
20:41	mwelt	got the latest leiningen version and made up simple dummy project with lein new app someappname
20:41	mwelt	lein run needs 47s to print out hello world
20:41	AWizzArd	mwelt: even when you do this 2-3 times in a row?
20:42	justin_smith	yeah, that's mainly clojure's fault
20:42	tolstoy	Did Clojure 1.6 significantly increase boot time like that?
20:42	mwelt	its 1.5
20:43	mwelt	1.5.1 to be correct
20:43	AWizzArd	Tho 47s is still a bit high, no?
20:43	tolstoy	Oh, hm.
20:43	mwelt	and leiningen version 2.3.4
20:44	mwelt	AWizzArd: its the same time even 2-3 times in a row ...
20:44	mwelt	this is a reald dealbreaker for me, but i hoped it did something wrong
20:44	mwelt	its running on jdk 8_5
20:44	AWizzArd	mwelt: I am using Java 8 too. But why is that a dealbreaker?
20:45	mwelt	AWizzArd: i am not willing to wait nearly one minute to execute a bunch of simple code. I wanted to build up a project on clojure...love the language thou...but 1 minute to run a simple test? no way
20:46	Bronsa	47s is insanely slow, lein run on a new project takes 3.5s here
20:46	mwelt	Bronsa: so maybe my setup ist corrupted
20:46	AWizzArd	mwelt: typically the idea is that in the morning you run „lein repl” and develop your program. There should be very few startups per day.
20:46	tolstoy	I just did a "lein new app someapp" and "time lein run" and got:
20:47	tolstoy	real 0m2.453s
20:47	tolstoy	user 0m3.579s
20:47	tolstoy	sys 0m0.241s
20:47	mwelt	tolstoy: this would be great :)
20:47	tolstoy	java version "1.8.0_05"
20:47	tolstoy	Nice fast iMac, though.
20:49	tolstoy	mwelt: Not sure if it'll be of any use, but "DEBUG=1 lein run".
20:49	mwelt	ill try
20:50	justin_smith	mwelt: also, you can do (clojure.test/run-tests) as many times as you like in a repl (after reloading changed namespaces of course)
20:50	tolstoy	If you have any deps defined, but they can't be pulled down for some network issue, I wonder if that would make a diff?
20:50	AWizzArd	While a startup time of one minute would be bothersome I still don’t see why it should be a tragic problem in practice in most cases.
20:51	justin_smith	it can also be caused by large numbers of deps
20:51	AWizzArd	justin_smith: how often do you call „lein run”?
20:52	justin_smith	less than once a week per project usually
20:52	justin_smith	with long lived repls, and reloading files as apropriate
20:52	AWizzArd	Compared to me you are a high-profile user of lein run then (:
20:52	justin_smith	heh
20:53	justin_smith	but mind you, I start my repl with lein run
20:53	tolstoy	When people are just learning, typing code then running "lean run" is the lowest barrier.
20:53	justin_smith	so that my repl is also the back door into a long running server process
20:53	AWizzArd	tolstoy: I accept this point.
20:53	tolstoy	Going "full repl" is a bit later in the game, no?
20:53	justin_smith	tolstoy: easier than lein repl really?
20:53	justin_smith	tolstoy: with my first lisp, the repl was a revelation and made everything in programming make so much more sense
20:54	justin_smith	I guess some others have different experiences
20:54	tolstoy	justin_smith: not ultimately, but when I first learned Common Lisp, repl + emacs + the language: I focussed on the language first.
20:54	justin_smith	hah, I started with the repl inside xterm
20:55	justin_smith	then later started entering stuff directly into files
20:55	tolstoy	Me, too, kind of. But there was no way to hook up files to the repl, until Emacs. But (for me) that was a WHOLE new thing.
20:55	mwelt	i also started with repl only
20:56	zaiste	is it possible to dynamically destruct a map ? i.e. https://gist.github.com/zaiste/19f9c4c0cb84bd9e8819
20:56	tolstoy	I had to learn the difference between the language errors, editor problems, etc, etc. ;)
20:56	mwelt	tried to fix some 4clojures
20:56	mwelt	and this brought the language to me
20:56	mwelt	but now i want to build up a litte project
20:56	AWizzArd	mwelt: when the repl is up you can start doing Clojure for several hours. The time spent with startups would even take with your 47s scenario just 3-4 minutes a day.
20:56	AWizzArd	mwelt: what project you wanna build? (:
20:57	justin_smith	zaiste: looks like you want :keys
20:57	mwelt	how can i execute my written code with all dependency and stuff in REPL?
20:57	justin_smith	,(let [{:keys [a b c d]} {:a 0 :b 2 :c 4 :d 8}] d)
20:57	clojurebot	8
20:57	zaiste	justin_smith: yes, perfect, thank you
20:57	justin_smith	mwelt: (require '[your.ns :as alias] :reload)
20:58	mwelt	its something 4 my plessure language related data mining stuff on a huge amount of textdata
20:58	justin_smith	sometimes you may also want to do (in-ns 'your.ns)
20:58	AWizzArd	,(let [{:keys [amount name x] :strs [foo] :or {x 33}} {:amount 14, "foo" 88, :name "Carlos"}] [amount name x foo])
20:58	clojurebot	[14 "Carlos" 33 88]
20:58	justin_smith	AWizzArd: nice
20:59	justin_smith	mwelt: there is also :reload-all to recursively reload the requires of an ns
21:00	mwelt	justin_smith: and this is always project related?
21:01	justin_smith	mwelt: well it uses your classpath, which lein sets up based on your project.clj
21:01	justin_smith	but you can hypothetically extend your classpath at runtime and fudge things, if that matters to you
21:02	justin_smith	with alembic you don't even need a restart to use new deps from clojars or maven central
21:02	mwelt	justin_smith: seems cool to me, but why does lein need 47s to startup this seems odd
21:03	justin_smith	mwelt: clojure does a lot of work at load time - it has no tree shaking and very little lazy loading (if any?) in core
21:03	justin_smith	this is not just a lein issue
21:03	zaiste	justin_smith: is it also possible to generate vec for :keys automatically, from symbols ? 3rd snippet: https://gist.github.com/zaiste/19f9c4c0cb84bd9e8819
21:03	arrdem	justin_smith: loading is lazy, but there is no tree shaking at all.
21:03	tolstoy	mwelt: Unless your computer is really underpowered, that IS odd.
21:04	arrdem	for lazy defined at the level of namespaces
21:04	justin_smith	arrdem: oh, good to know, thanks
21:04	nDuff	mwelt, ...I'd expect that kind of timing if, say, lein were downloading a library that wasn't in your local Maven cache.
21:04	arrdem	nDuff: or if you're running on a free ec2 instance
21:05	mwelt	tolstoy: got i7 with 16GB ram and ssd
21:05	mwelt	seems fine to me
21:05	tolstoy	Yep. Something's odd. ;)
21:05	justin_smith	zaiste: I am confused about the use case there - you wouldn't know until runtime what symbols are bound in the let, so you would not be able to effectively write code using those symbols
21:06	tolstoy	mwelt: Still 47secs when you "lein run" a brand new project with no deps you've added yourself?
21:06	tolstoy	mwelt: Surely "java -version" doesn't take a long time, right?
21:06	mwelt	tolstoy: mom
21:07	mwelt	java -version :
21:07	mwelt	real 0m0.067s
21:07	mwelt	user 0m0.052s
21:07	mwelt	sys 0m0.007s
21:08	tolstoy	mwelt: The folks on #leiningen woke up.
21:08	AWizzArd	mwelt: it might be worthwhile to start up a jvm with clojure.jar on the CP.
21:09	justin_smith	mwelt: what are the deps in the project that takes that long anyway?
21:09	mwelt	no
21:09	mwelt	justin_smith: no deps just plain ne genrated projekt
21:10	mwelt	time lein run
21:10	mwelt	Hello, World!
21:10	mwelt	real 0m24.313s
21:10	mwelt	user 0m4.367s
21:10	mwelt	sys 0m0.289s
21:10	AWizzArd	justin_smith: how are your timings for “java -server -version”?
21:11	zaiste	justin_smith: you're right, i've overcomplicated, thanks
21:11	justin_smith	0.076
21:14	mwelt	time java -server -version
21:14	mwelt	java version "1.8.0_05"
21:14	mwelt	Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 1.8.0_05-b13)
21:14	mwelt	Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM (build 25.5-b02, mixed mode)
21:14	mwelt	real 0m0.064s
21:14	mwelt	user 0m0.046s
21:14	mwelt	sys 0m0.019s
21:14	AWizzArd	mwelt: but try this with java -server -cp clojure.jar
21:15	mwelt	k
21:16	mwelt	where does leiningen store clojure.jar?
21:16	AWizzArd	java -server -cp clojure-1.6.0.jar clojure.main -e "(println 55)"
21:22	tolstoy	mwelt: ~/.m2/repository/org/clojure/clojure/1.6.0/clojure-1.6.0.jar
21:22	arrdem	does lein's eval-in-project return the eval result as one would expect?
21:24	arrdem	it doesn't appear to T_T
21:24	tolstoy	For me, AWizzArd's suggestion ran in .7s.
21:24	AWizzArd	tolstoy: that seems pretty okay
21:25	tolstoy	Yep.
21:27	AWizzArd	mwelt: another test for you and tolstoy could be: just type “lein help” and time that.
21:27	AWizzArd	On my not-so-fast system it’s around 8s.
21:27	mwelt	3 s
21:28	AWizzArd	lein help actually must load a jvm
21:28	tolstoy	I thought my system was fast, I get around 8s too.
21:28	mwelt	the plain java run without leinen is also under 3s
21:29	AWizzArd	So, it seems Leiningen can start up fast enough with its own code & Clojure.
21:29	tolstoy	I've got stuff in my .lein/profiles.clj, too.
21:30	tolstoy	Yeah, lein is fast enough for me with the empty project. I was just hoping to establish that mwelt is experiencing a fluke compared to the average.
21:30	tolstoy	lein deps :tree might be interesting.
21:31	tolstoy	(I have nrepl snapshot, for instance.)
21:31	tolstoy	faster: lein with-profile production deps :tree
21:33	amalloy	`lein help` is a bad thing to time, because it loads all plugins
21:33	mwelt	tolstoy: the problem was the fileshare
21:33	tolstoy	Woo hoo! ;)
21:33	mwelt	tolstoy: i ran the program in sshfs
21:33	mwelt	tolstoy: without it its under 2s
21:33	tolstoy	Glad you found it. Phew!
21:33	mwelt	tolstoy: ^^
21:34	justin_smith	oh wow, yeah, I guess that would affect things
21:34	AWizzArd	those 47s were indeed a bit too suspicious, even for some slower system.
21:34	justin_smith	I guess I have used / developed to many bloated mega-apps for 47 seconds to seem that big a deal :(
21:34	tolstoy	Yeah. Now, add cljsbuild to your hooks, and we're back into the 1 minute start territory. ;)
21:35	mwelt	tolstoy: well ... no :) but thanks a lot for helping
21:35	tolstoy	Heh.
21:36	mwelt	and yea shame on me for not believing in slow network issues
21:37	mwelt	what is cljsbuild?
21:38	tolstoy	It's a plugin for compiling (and cleaning) clojurescript clients.
21:38	tolstoy	When you add it to the hooks key in your project, it'll participate in the normal "run" "jar" and "clean" tasks.
21:39	justin_smith	yeah, clojurescript currently builds kind of slow
21:39	tolstoy	At least the incremental build it fast, but, yeah.
21:39	justin_smith	yeah, auto can be OK
21:50	amalloy	man, i remember when i tried to run lein over sshfs. what a terrible idea
21:50	arrdem	amalloy: I tried that once... the .class files made my wifi cry
21:53	mwelt	amalloy: it was not a good idea
21:55	arrdem	RFC on https://github.com/arrdem/radagast/blob/54844b2d3939d77dba3fd1c36c99829b803ad206/src/leiningen/radagast.clj, I kinda feel like failing test cases should also be a reason for a nonzero return code in addition to incomplete test coverage.
22:29	allenj12	hey, what is the most recommended full stack framework?
22:29	justin_smith	,nil
22:29	clojurebot	nil
22:30	tolstoy	allenj12: Most Clojure devs and tinkerers compose small frameworks. Since Clojure is not OO, there's no ORM, for instance.
22:31	tolstoy	But I think there are fullstack things out there.
22:31	justin_smith	allenj12: I have worked on one that people who are familiar with django or rails may find familiar in its usage (caribou), but what tolstoy said
22:31	tolstoy	Yeah, caribou. I was trying to remember what that was. ;)
22:32	allenj12	hmm alright im new to web dev completely just not sure where to start :p
22:32	justin_smith	caribou tries to do mvc / orm with clojure maps, kind of. it is overengineered in places, and clunky in places, but has a lot of stuff out of the box
22:33	tolstoy	allenj12: I'd find an interesting Compojure tutorial somewhere.
22:33	allenj12	hmm alright sounds good
22:34	tolstoy	compojure is a routing lib, like sinatra in ruby, so you can get an app running and use CURL to try it out. Then use a JSON lib to convert clojure maps to json, try that out, etc.
22:35	tolstoy	Put your html, js and css in /resources/public, try that. Hook up mongo or sql or something....
22:36	tolstoy	At that point, you'll have something to swap out parts, or at least a general idea of what's good or bad. IMHO. ;)
22:36	allenj12	haha alright
22:37	tolstoy	Where I work (conservative Java shop), someone demo'd a compojure app that read in a SQL file from disk and executed the query, returning the results as json.
22:38	tolstoy	People were amazed at how little code made that work.
22:38	tolstoy	Oh, and you might look up the "lein ring" plugin.
22:40	allenj12	ring? got it. ill do that
22:42	tolstoy	This: https://github.com/weavejester/lein-ring
22:42	tolstoy	And this: https://github.com/weavejester/compojure/wiki/Getting-Started
22:46	dbasch	this is kinda nice http://jafingerhut.github.io/cheatsheet-clj-1.3/cheatsheet-tiptip-cdocs-summary.html
22:48	tolstoy	Nice. Hover gives the doc string.
22:49	allenj12	hmm ok so im looking more at this stuff. Just wanna make sure tho, is it worth building a website in clojure? i assumed it would be best because its pretty much all i have been programming in for a while, but is there something else i should be using?
22:50	benkay	for a 'web site' you might consider flat files on disk and a web server like nginx or apache over clojure
22:50	benkay	if it needs to be interactive, clojure webapps are pretty fun imho
22:50	dbasch	allenj12: if you mean a web application, yes
22:50	justin_smith	allenj12: for dynamic content, yeah, clojure is pretty kickass
22:50	allenj12	maybe i should be more specific
22:51	justin_smith	also if you need to integrate with other web APIs etc.
22:51	justin_smith	clojure makes that stuff very straightforward (thanks to the amount of similarity in edn and json in part)
22:51	tolstoy	Using clojure to generate a static site is fun, too.
22:52	justin_smith	tolstoy: but maybe not the most practical way to do it
22:52	allenj12	so i am making a gaming platform, i need a website that can make users where they can buy credit etc. i also need my platform to access that information (its going to be a downloadable client).
22:52	tolstoy	you mean maybe awk and sed are praps even better?
22:53	allenj12	does that change anything?
22:53	justin_smith	allenj12: you should definitely check out friend, and clojure.java.jdbc
22:53	justin_smith	that's totally doable in clojure
22:55	allenj12	hmm ok i am most comfortable in clojure so thats good. and its as practical as other options?
22:55	arrdem	for other options defined to be the usual suspects of PHP, nod_js# and dogescript, sure.
22:56	arrdem	justin_smith: what was that doge json knockoff you linked?
22:56	arrdem	http://dogeon.org/ gotcha
22:56	justin_smith	allenj12: practical can mean dev time or cpu time - it's better performing than most mainstream web dev options, and pretty close to the rest, and in terms of dev time it can be very straightforward
22:57	justin_smith	arrdem: speaking of practical, huh :)
22:57	allenj12	ok great thats what i wanted to hear :)
22:57	arrdem	justin_smith: sssssh nobody needs to know that my databases are really just flat dogeon files
22:57	allenj12	is there a specific host i should be looking at when i decide to look for one?
22:58	justin_smith	arrdem: wow, such table, much data, many plaintext passwords
22:58	arrdem	allenj12: anything that'll let you run a JVM with arbitrary jars...
22:58	arrdem	allenj12: digitalocian and ec2 get some love around here.
22:58	dbasch	allenj12: I heard Heroku is putting effort into making clojure easy to deploy
22:58	justin_smith	allenj12: well the nice thing is that you can just use httpkit and make an uberjar, so any host that has java, which is pretty much any host worth using
22:58	arrdem	dbasch: yeah but heroku's prices are insane for a nonfree instance of both a database and a server...
22:59	arrdem	dbasch: you pay a ton for their tooling
22:59	justin_smith	well really they should support nginx and varnish too, but that is also not hard to find
22:59	dbasch	arrdem: of course
22:59	allenj12	yea i heard both af digital ocean and heroku lately when asking around
22:59	benkay	does anyone know how to return a value from deftest? i'd like to compose the output of some kerodon testing from a threaded macro with another test.
22:59	allenj12	both seemed most recommended
22:59	benkay	if your budget's constrained, ipxcore's nice
23:00	dbasch	arrdem: I use ec2 directly, but also used Heroku quite a bit for one-off ruby/rack apps years ago
23:00	benkay	if not terribly performant on the vps side of things.
23:00	allenj12	heroku seems expensive for now tho... since i need to play around with things like that :)
23:00	benkay	if you have a budget, servers from aws is the way to go.
23:00	arrdem	dbasch: I did my first real clojure blog on heroku. their deployment system was nice, but then I realized what their pricing was like.
23:01	justin_smith	speaking of deployment, also one of the wins with clojure compared with other backend web server options is you can get more throughput while spending less on hardware
23:01	allenj12	hmm alright cool. btw is is there a lein template recommeded for this kinda stuff?
23:02	dbasch	allenj12: the default compojure template is an ok start
23:02	arrdem	allenj12: there is a lein template for a new ring app, but in general lein templates are few and far between.
23:02	justin_smith	the compojure one should be a nice start (though I recommend looking into one of the non-macro-based routers too, being able to make routes from data at runtime is nice)
23:03	arrdem	allenj12: if you see anything about noir, steer clear of it 'cause it's deprecated.
23:03	allenj12	hmm gotcha, o really? i atcually just did, thanks for the heads up
23:03	arrdem	allenj12: lib-noir is OK tho.
23:03	justin_smith	there is also (from the project I work on) lein new caribou, which is kind of everything you need and 5 times as many things you don't need, but hell it comes with a semi-usable web cms UI out of the box
23:04	justin_smith	and a db backend with "data models" all set up and ready to use from the cms
23:04	arrdem	allenj12: yeah ibdknox did a reasonable job of making all the ring stuff nice to use, but the result wasn't very flexible and he wound up abaindoning it. that happened about 3mo after I finished my noir backed blog :P
23:05	allenj12	lol :)
23:07	allenj12	o i guess i should also ask although it might sound really dumb. when does cljs come into the picture
23:07	allenj12	?
23:08	justin_smith	when you want to make client side js code in clojure
23:08	allenj12	gotcha
23:08	justin_smith	you compile the cljs to js, and send that in a page
23:08	justin_smith	useful for single page app kind of stuff
23:10	benkay	does anyone know how to return a value from deftest?
23:10	benkay	from a deftest macro
23:10	arrdem	why would you do such a thing?
23:11	benkay	composing a kerodon test, would like to preserve a session across composed tests.
23:11	benkay	unless...crazy/stupid.
23:11	benkay	in which case, what's a really awesome way to test a webapp's session functionality and then compose those tests?
23:12	arrdem	you can write tests that require other tests pass, I think the "right way" to do this is just to structure your test such that the test of the composition requires individual tests and then tests the compise.
23:12	arrdem	*tests the compose of the individual elements.
23:12	justin_smith	you can use a fixture that runs once around all tests
23:12	justin_smith	that sets up your session
23:13	benkay	hm write the to-be-composed stuff in regular functions and then call them composedly from inside deftest macros?
23:13	justin_smith	also remember that you can call is in functions outside a deftest, and then call said functions in multiple deftests
23:13	justin_smith	right
23:13	benkay	man lisp is cool
23:14	justin_smith	indeed, I do love it as well
23:14	justin_smith	(inc clojure)
23:14	lazybot	⇒ 16
23:14	justin_smith	haha
23:14	justin_smith	(inc juxt)
23:14	lazybot	⇒ 10
23:14	benkay	anyways, thanks y'all.
23:14	allenj12	is envlive useful?
23:15	benkay	rather, allenj12
23:15	justin_smith	yeah, enlive is great for being able to treat html content in a functional way
23:17	allenj12	ok cool