#clojure – 2014-06-02

2014-06-02

00:13	amalloy	pcn: might as well link to a paste of the code that confuses you, or otherwise describe what's wrong with it somehow. nobody can help with "different code than i expected but it might be okay"
00:14	pcn	https://github.com/magomimmo/modern-cljs/issues/153
00:49	pcn	Hmm... same seems to be happening with the rest of the tutorial. I guess this'll continue in the github issue.
03:17	hellofunk	sheesh i lost internet connection after asking my question; just got it back
03:17	anna_	ok
03:33	hellofunk	cemerick or ddellacosta do you see anything about the openID workflow that would cause Ring to report a null ptr exception? compiles fine: https://www.refheap.com/86184
03:45	xsyn	hey hey
03:51	xsyn	Does anybody have a picture that illustrates immutability
03:51	xsyn	?
03:58	katratxo	xsyn: perhaps the way to picture it, is showing structural sharing?
03:59	xsyn	right now, I'm using a git tree
03:59	katratxo	xsyn: e.g. http://hypirion.com/musings/understanding-persistent-vector-pt-1
04:00	xsyn	hmm, this might work
04:00	xsyn	ta
05:07	hellofunk	ddellacosta looks like even Google is recommend OAuth over OpenID for mere authentication https://developers.google.com/accounts/docs/OpenID
05:09	powrtoc	Hey all, I'm looking at core.async and I'm wondering if there's a way to test if a channel will block before you put something on it?
05:22	powrtoc	I'm thinking that if I wanted to do this, I'd have to keep a count in an atom and test if it was less than the buffer size
05:24	Glenjamin	powrtoc: what would you do if it was going to block?
05:25	powrtoc	Glenjamin: return some kind of service unavailable message to the user... or try again when we're less busy
05:26	Glenjamin	i guess the idea is generally that a queue should separate those sorts of issues from the user
05:26	powrtoc	Glenjamin: Except you can't without having an unbounded queue... basically I want to expose back-pressure to the users, rather than just drop their messages
05:45	michaelr525	hey
05:46	hellofunk	hey
05:46	noncom	heeeeey
05:46	noncom	,(println "huuwawa!")
05:46	michaelr525	Is there something for emacs which implements the C-TAB C-S-TAB behavior like it really is in Windows or Intellij and all the rest?
05:46	clojurebot	huuwawa!\n
05:50	ddellaco_	michaelr525: you mean, moving between buffers? It's not a clean analogy since usually one doesn't use emacs with a bunch of different windows
05:54	michaelr525	ddellacosta: yes, buffers
05:55	ddellacosta	michaelr525: well, there are a lot of different ways to move between buffers--you can do C-x b Ret to toggle between two active buffers
05:56	ddellacosta	michaelr525: C-x C-b will open up the buffer list in a new buffer, etc.
05:56	ddellacosta	michaelr525: and I glossed over it but C-x b and tabbing/typing will get you to a specific buffer. Lots of ways to do it.
05:57	ddellacosta	michaelr525: and if you don't like that, you can just change it. :-) http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/SwitchingBuffers
05:58	hellofunk	ddellacosta how do I get your oath2 tool to use somthign other than /login as the automatic redirect to the authentication page of the oauth provider?
05:58	michaelr525	ddellacosta: I'm aware of that and that's actually how I work with it today. I've tried already a few of the purposed solutions there but none of them so far works like I would like it to.
05:58	michaelr525	For example C-TAB switches from A -> B, the next C-TAB switches back B->A
06:00	ddellacosta	michaelr525: well, I can't help you further...it works well for me as is. I would suggest writing your own elisp extensions if you really need to go deep. I'm sure the folks in #emacs can give you better suggestions though.
06:00	michaelr525	ddellacosta: thanks
06:01	ddellacosta	hellofunk: that's a friend setting if I recall correctly, try setting :login-uri (https://github.com/cemerick/friend/blob/master/src/cemerick/friend.clj#L233)
06:01	ddellacosta	hellofunk: let me confirm that I'm not leading you astray though, one sec...
06:02	hellofunk	well, I'd like to have multiple different logins on one page. The Friend Demo examples allow you to design login/ but as soon as I added the oauth2 workflow, it "took over" login/
06:02	hellofunk	ddellacosta ^
06:05	ddellacosta	hellofunk: friend is just going to try and log you in if you are not authenticated and you try to access something that requires authentication, and it should redirect you to the login uri, whatever that is set to be
06:06	ddellacosta	hellofunk: I'm not sure why it would matter whether it is oauth2 or not; it all uses the same workflow mechanism
06:06	hellofunk	ddellacosta: oh, i used the :openid-uri in the openid workflow, so that prevented login/ from being hijacked. can I use a specific "overriding" uri in oauth2/workflow as well?
06:07	ddellacosta	hellofunk: still not understanding what you mean by "hijacked"
06:09	hellofunk	ddellacosta i have a compojure route where i have my own content for login/. when i use openID in Friend, I specified the :openid-uri as something else, therefore login/ is not affected by Friend behavior. As soon as I also added the oauth2 workflow, my login/ route no longer uses my own content, and instead just goes right to the google auth login.
06:12	ddellacosta	hellofunk: ...so you want it to go to a site-specific login page where the user will choose what authentication method to use, basically?
06:13	hellofunk	ddellacosta, yes that is how my login/ page is setup currently. I supplemented the openID workflow with your oauth2 workflow, but it seems to take over the login/ page
06:14	ddellacosta	hellofunk: hold on, let me look into this further
06:23	hellofunk	ddellacosta i can do some renaming of my routes if I must use login/ for oauth2. it's not a huge issue. the other problem is I can't seem to get the user's email address after Google sends back to my site. the normal (friend/current-authentication) map with :email and :firstname etc doesn't seem to be there
06:24	ddellacosta	hellofunk: as far as the latter, that's by design; it's not part of the OAuth2 spec. However, another user is working on an extension for Google.
06:25	hellofunk	ddellacosta so how would i be able to know if the Google-authenticated user is also one I should authenticate?
06:25	ddellacosta	hellofunk: why are you using an authorization protocol for authentication?
06:25	ddellacosta	hellofunk: don't answer that. sigh&
06:25	hellofunk	because Google has deprecated OpenID
06:26	hellofunk	as of 2 weeks ago you can longer signup for OpenID with Google ddellacosta
06:26	hellofunk	*no longer
06:26	hellofunk	ddellacosta Google now recommends OAuth2 for authentication: https://developers.google.com/accounts/docs/OpenID
06:27	ddellacosta	hellofunk: I know all of this
06:27	whodidthis	maybe oauth has userid
06:27	ddellacosta	hellofunk: and I am in fact resigned to it. But you should 1) read what I wrote in the README under #5 and 2) at last glance at the oauth2 rfc sometime so you know what you are getting into
06:29	hellofunk	ddellacosta, I saw that, but it's not clear what these "tokens" are -- are they Google-created UUIDs or are they more general info that is useful?
06:29	ddellacosta	hellofunk: and none of this means you can't query the api after you've authenticated
06:29	ddellacosta	hellofunk: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6749
06:30	ddellacosta	hellofunk: the entire point of oauth2 is that you get an access token which you can then use to query the 3rd-party provider for resources
06:31	hellofunk	ddellacosta ah, that's the piece I was missing from all this.
06:33	ddellacosta	hellofunk: re: original issue, I think that's a greater problem--the oauth2 workflow is badly behaved and doesn't play well with others (other workflows, that is). I'm seeing if I can make a simple patch quickly now. I've never used it myself other than with a single workflow, I'm afraid.
06:34	hellofunk	ddellacosta I am just moving some routes around so that login/ can be dedicated to your oath2 while a different uri is for openID, etc and a different page other than login/ with my various login options.
06:35	ddellacosta	hellofunk: not sure that will help, but tell me if it does, in which case it works very differently than I'd thought
06:35	hellofunk	i'll know in about 2 minutes after the heroku push
06:46	hellofunk	ddellacosta perhaps part of the issue is that I am not relying on the friend/authorize in my routes, instead using the (if-let [auth (friend/current-authentication req)] style. maybe this doesn't play well with the oauth2
06:52	hellofunk	ddellacosta: in any case looks like my problem is resolved by letting /login be dedicated to the oath2 workflow alone, and using other named routes for other things.
06:52	ddellacosta	hellofunk: that's one solution
06:53	ddellacosta	hellofunk: this needs more configurable options though. I'll have to think through it as it may take a little time, but if that works for you that's great.
06:53	ddellacosta	hellofunk: thanks for bringing this to my attention!
06:53	hellofunk	ddellacosta so I 've got OpenID and OAuth2 working in harmony now, I just need to learn how to get meaningful info form the OAuth token so I know who is actually hitting my site after the OAuth login.
06:54	hellofunk	despite this minor /login issue I must thank you for the library, it and Friend are really saving me right now
06:55	ddellacosta	hellofunk: until I've got some extensions integrated to allow for stuff like getting the rest of the google-provided data initially, you'll just have to do it the "old fashioned way:" https://developers.google.com/accounts/docs/OAuth2?hl=ja
06:57	hellofunk	ddellacosta do you have an example that shows how to query this directly? I'm trying to look for it in your repo
06:57	ddellacosta	hellofunk: no, I don't have any examples of this
06:57	ddellacosta	but the access token should be in the session
06:58	hellofunk	ok i see the token in the request.
06:58	ddellacosta	you'll probably want to use a lib like https://www.google.co.jp/search?q=clj-http&oq=clj-http&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.1095j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=91&ie=UTF-8
06:58	ddellacosta	d'oh
06:58	ddellacosta	I meant this
06:58	ddellacosta	https://github.com/dakrone/clj-http
06:58	ddellacosta	format your URL as described in the google doc I linked you to above, hitting the appropriate API, for example: https://developers.google.com/+/api/latest/people/get
07:00	hellofunk	ok, looks like more reading and experimenting. i'll admit i'm a bit slow in figuring all this out.
07:00	hellofunk	i appreciate the help though ddellacosta
07:00	ddellacosta	hellofunk: no worries, but let me take the opportunity to nag you to read up further on the oauth2 protocol okay? ;-)
07:01	ddellacosta	hellofunk: in the meantime I'll figure out how I can make oauth2 work more smoothly with other workflows
07:02	ddellacosta	hellofunk: and if you have trouble with getting the data you need from the google api ping me
07:02	hellofunk	ddellacosta agreed. and i also agree that it seems overkill to do all this authorization and querying when all i want is to piggyback on these guys for mere authentication
07:02	ddellacosta	hellofunk: this is the basic problem with oauth2...it's really not meant to do what all the big guys are now suggesting you use it for
07:03	ddellacosta	oauth is kind of an old school web 2.0 relic, imo...back in the heady days when we were all going to be doing these mash-ups of different api's data to produce new fancy web apps
07:03	hellofunk	i was tasked with making a Google login for our site; had I started this 3 weeks ago, I could have been among the last to signup for OpenID with Google and that would have bought me 1 year. ddellacosta.
07:03	ddellacosta	hellofunk: d'oh
07:03	ddellacosta	hellofunk: well, again, ping me if you have trouble
07:04	ddellacosta	email is my username at gmail
07:04	hellofunk	appreciate it ddellacosta and thanks again for the library
07:04	ddellacosta	hellofunk: np
07:09	ddellacosta	hellofunk: more details but worth reading, even if you end up using oauth2 the way you're using it: http://www.thread-safe.com/2012/01/problem-with-oauth-for-authentication.html
07:10	hellofunk	ddellacosta please send that article to Google's execs right away
07:10	hellofunk	nevermind i'll do it
07:10	ddellacosta	hellofunk: are you kidding?
07:10	hellofunk	ddellacosta yes
07:11	ddellacosta	hellofunk: ah, irony is hard to read sometimes. ;-)
07:11	hellofunk	ddellacosta correct me if i'm wrong but this OAuth is now the only way for new sites to setup authentication with Google since the deprecation of their OpenID
07:12	ddellacosta	hellofunk: well, again, if you are delegating authentication to google, then the answer is yes. It's fine if you just need to ensure that the user's resources you get from google are properly authenticated by google
07:13	ddellacosta	hellofunk: but it is too bad since it's not really a valid replacement for openid
07:14	hellofunk	ddellacosta a lot seems to come down to the simplicity of the API, getting an auth token back instead of a simple yes/no and an email address
07:14	ddellacosta	hellofunk: sure
07:14	ddellacosta	hellofunk: but again, authn != authz, apples to oranges, etc. etc.
07:16	ddellacosta	hellofunk: to be fair, I guess this initiative seeks to solve some of these problems: http://openid.net/connect/
07:34	prc	Hi. Say that I I have a function such as this: (defn an-example [& args] (str args)) Can someone tell me what the & means? I know what it's used for, but I am concerned with what it means/does... does it turn args into a list? a vector maybe? What's the logic behind it?
07:34	agarman	it's variadic
07:34	agarman	or varargs in java
07:34	agarman	[& args] means args will be an Object[]
07:35	agarman	but at the callsite you use individual values
07:36	agarman	specifically clojure wraps the individual values in clojure.lang.ArraySeq
07:37	prc	agarman: you have my thanks.
08:16	clgv	agarman: prc: actually it uses javas var args only for arities greater than 20
08:21	phillord	how do protocols choice the method to invoke where there is multiple inheritance?
08:21	phillord	For example, consider http://pastebin.com/FcRk7mmp
08:22	phillord	why does the CharSequence implementation get called?
08:31	noncom	phillord: just a guess: coz implementations get added to a list and the first element is taken on dispatch, which turns out to be CharSequence?
08:32	noncom	try more implementations, see if this is correct..
08:34	phillord	might well be
08:34	phillord	testing
08:35	phillord	nope, not that...
08:36	phillord	Tried, CharSequence, then Comparable, then Serializable -- comparable is called
08:36	phillord	nor is it left to right from interface definition -- that should be Serializable
08:37	phillord	nor is it alphabetically
08:37	phillord	confusing
08:37	ayia	Hi, guys. What is the idiomatic way to populate hash-map on condition? I.e. given a default value of a hash-map, when condition is true, then assoc some key/value pairs to it... if not - leave default value...
08:38	noncom	phillord: umm.. maybe hash?
08:38	mdrogalis	ayia: (let [x (if condition (assoc ...) old-map)] ..)
08:38	ayia	I tried something like: (->> {:a 1} #(if condition (assoc % :b 2) %)), but it seems to not work...
08:38	phillord	noncom: or something random in the JVM implementation
08:39	mdrogalis	ayia: Probably a positioning problem with respect to ->>
08:39	phillord	noncom: i guess, technically, hash is something random in the JVM implementation
08:39	noncom	phillord: does the choice persist if you restart the environment and try again?
08:39	clgv	ayia: (cond-> {:a 1} (odd? 1) (assoc :a 5))
08:40	clgv	ayia: ##(cond-> {:a 1} (odd? 1) (assoc :a 5))
08:40	phillord	just testing that
08:40	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: cond-> in this context
08:40	clgv	,(cond-> {:a 1} (odd? 1) (assoc :a 5))
08:40	clojurebot	{:a 5}
08:40	phillord	oh dear
08:40	phillord	no, it doesn't
08:40	noncom	ahaha
08:40	noncom	:D
08:40	phillord	that's rather poor
08:40	noncom	well, i was never into clojure protocols
08:41	noncom	i think that this question should be raised when some more involved people are here
08:41	phillord	http://pastebin.com/HjqKwATJ
08:41	noncom	maybe they will recognize this as an error, or point to why is this good :)
08:41	phillord	can you tests for me? put this into a clean REPL a couple of times
08:41	noncom	ok, wait
08:43	ayia	clgv: big thanks! it works:)
08:46	noncom	in process, pls wait :)
08:46	phillord	(extend-type Phil BeingPatient)
08:49	noncom	phillord: charseq
08:49	phillord	every time?
08:49	noncom	oops, 2 times charseq, 3rd time - serializable
08:50	noncom	4, 5 - serializable
08:50	phillord	interesting -- I am getting charseq everytime from lein repl -- but got different results in cider
08:50	noncom	i use eclipse ccw
08:50	noncom	make an automated test to run tis thing 100 times in a row :)
08:51	noncom	maybe statistics will sow...
08:51	noncom	show
08:51	noncom	and you can test across different jvms
08:51	noncom	just a game
08:51	noncom	but honestly, the people from above sould be asked about it i guess
08:51	phillord	automation won't help
08:51	phillord	the JVM needs restarting
08:51	phillord	well, I guess I can automate that also
08:52	noncom	yeah, te kind of automation that restarts jvm :)
08:56	clgv	phillord: or you could just look it up in the Clojure source
08:56	phillord	sure I could
08:57	phillord	but I have no idea how protocols work, the code they produce is baroque and it's not clear where it would be in the source
08:59	clgv	just a hint so that you dont have to wait for the US folks to show up ;)
08:59	phillord	it probably should be in the documentation I think
09:00	phillord	I'm not in an urgent hurry -- just thinking about a reimplementation of something I already have working
09:02	phillord	it's different everytime on windows -- so, defn JVM dependent
09:06	hhenkel	Hi all, I'm currently toying around with yaml and found the "clj-yaml". What confuses me is what version to use, there is a version 0.4.0 and I also found 0.5.0 with updated dependecies.
09:06	hhenkel	I also fail to use either of them as the snakeyaml lib is missing. Shouldn't that be in the dependecies?
09:07	hhenkel	I first use this: https://clojars.org/clj-yaml and later on that: https://clojars.org/nl.onlinetouch/clj-yaml/versions/0.5.0
09:08	hhenkel	Running my application with "lein run" gives me: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: load for class org.yaml.snakeyaml.Yaml
09:11	noncom	hhenkel: so you add [nl.onlinetouch/clj-yaml "0.5.0"] into dependencies of your project.clj
09:11	noncom	and then run "lein deps"
09:11	noncom	and then "lein run"
09:11	noncom	and get the error?
09:26	Hodapp	hmmm, this whole 'livecoding' thing is quite interesting
09:35	hhenkel	noncom: Yes, exactely
09:36	noncom	Hodapp: no doubt man! come in!
09:37	hhenkel	noncom: Those are my dependencies: https://www.refheap.com/86204
09:37	noncom	hhenkel: try this? https://clojars.org/dsabanin/clj-yaml
09:38	noncom	looks correct
09:39	noncom	the toolbox http://www.clojure-toolbox.com/ suggests this as a parser
09:39	noncom	https://clojars.org/clj-yaml
09:40	noncom	so why does class org.yaml.snakeyaml.Yaml as no method "load()" ?
09:40	noncom	hhenkel: this is not really a deps problem as i see
09:40	hhenkel	noncom: Tried the one you provided...looks okay from the downloaded stuff but still fails: https://www.refheap.com/86205
09:41	noncom	hhenkel: it just says it cannot find the right method
09:41	noncom	the erroor might well be in your code
09:41	noncom	show your code
09:41	noncom	(the part where you call for "load")
09:43	noncom	hhenkel: https://code.google.com/p/snakeyaml/source/browse/src/main/java/org/yaml/snakeyaml/Yaml.java#399
09:43	hhenkel	noncom: I updated the redheap stuff.
09:43	noncom	hhenkel: see, the Yaml.load() method gets called
09:43	noncom	hhenkel: apparently none of the overloads match
09:44	noncom	hhenkel: check that out, the types
09:45	hhenkel	noncom: Ah, okay this indicates that I'm returning the wrong type of data and therefore it fails...
09:46	noncom	hhenkel: you can check a type with (type ...)
09:46	noncom	,(doc type)
09:46	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns the :type metadata of x, or its Class if none"
09:46	noncom	,(doc class?)
09:46	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns true if x is an instance of Class"
09:47	hhenkel	noncom: clojure.lang.LazySeq ...
09:48	noncom	hhenkel: surely that's not wat a usual java lib would want to see :)
09:48	hhenkel	noncom: I guess I need to make a string out of it.
09:48	noncom	hhenkel: (apply str your-lazy-seq)
09:49	hhenkel	noncom: Okay, that looks better (different error - but yaml format related I guess).
09:49	hhenkel	noncom: Thank you very much!
09:50	noncom	cool!
09:57	martinklepsch	this is valid in a ns form, right? (:require [quil.core :refer :all])
09:58	noncom	martinklepsch: right
09:58	Johannes`	hi, how does clojure generally stack up to CL/Scheme/Python/Ruby.. in performance?
09:58	segmond	it stacks up nicely
09:59	segmond	python and ruby are not in the same category
09:59	noncom	but them vms
09:59	noncom	crossplatform too
09:59	segmond	with that said, i highly doubt you have a performance problem, so stop worrying about performance
09:59	noncom	performace is good and rising
09:59	Johannes`	i mean, where would you place it?
10:00	noncom	well, lots of scheme implemntations are a fast c thing..
10:00	noncom	i can't say anything really, not enough expertise
10:01	locks	I'd place it in the "fast enough not to worry about it" region :P
10:01	Johannes`	basic expressions are a bit slow to evaluate here on my wii ^^;
10:01	Johannes`	but not in CL, python or ruby
10:01	p_l	compilator overhead?
10:02	Johannes`	no idea
10:02	locks	you have clojure in your Wii?
10:02	Johannes`	yeah
10:02	locks	cute
10:02	locks	I had it on my phone
10:04	Johannes`	loading clojure-1.6.0.jar takes about 22 seconds :V
10:04	Johannes`	python takes 0.5s
10:07	hyPiRion	Johannes`: loading Clojure is in general slow. Interpreting takes overhead as it has to be compiled before it can be run. But compiled code runs faster than Python and Ruby
10:08	hyPiRion	Not sure where CL and Scheme is on the list
10:08	Johannes`	aha
10:08	hyPiRion	but then again, it's sort-of comparing apples to oranges
10:09	Johannes`	well, it seems development requires modern hardware, otherwise the REPL is too slow to load
10:10	hyPiRion	yeah, in which case Ruby/Python fares better
10:11	noncom	what about these plans? http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Release.Next+Planning
10:11	Johannes`	oO(but maybe working around python's limitations is worse than waiting for clojure to load)
10:12	noncom	Johannes`: usually you wait the loading time just once
10:12	Johannes`	if you have it running in emacs, true
10:12	noncom	you can start an instance on android and connet to it
10:13	hyPiRion	noncom: yeah, there is some work going on making startup faster
10:13	noncom	also, there were experiments wit stripping down clojure off unnecessary things which improved the situation really
10:14	Johannes`	like java? :)
10:14	hyPiRion	haha
10:14	noncom	hyPiRion: i am going to go into clojure android development so i watch this space
10:14	noncom	don't laugh on jvm
10:14	noncom	it is serious
10:17	hyPiRion	noncom: so I presume you're watching alexyakushev's work then
10:17	duck1123	There's also a project that keeps a copy of java loaded up to make it easier to run functions quickly. Can't remember the name
10:17	noncom	hyPiRion: yes, and what sattvik does too. afaik he ports clojure
10:18	iwo	hey, does anyone know the most appropriate way to create a function that does thing?
10:19	iwo	i'm thinking something like: (constantly nil)
10:19	hyPiRion	duck1123: drip?
10:19	hyPiRion	or perhaps grenchman?
10:20	noncom	iwo: looks noce
10:20	noncom	*nice
10:20	iwo	but is there an existing library function that does (constantly nil) ?
10:20	duck1123	hyPiRion: that may be it. I was under the impression that it started with a c, but I may be getting it mixed up with a similar ruby project
10:20	noncom	like (constantly-nil) ?
10:21	iwo	noncom: :)
10:21	iwo	i'm basically wondering if there's a more idiomatic way to create a noop function
10:22	iwo	oh, just realised i have a typo above, I said "function that does thing?" when I meant "function that does nothing?"
10:22	iwo	pretty important part of the question :)
10:22	hyPiRion	duck1123: there is a clojure-c somewhere. It's gotten really mature I think, saw an ANN from it not too long ago
10:22	Johannes`	why not (fn [])?
10:23	hyPiRion	but it doesn't spin up a JVM, it's "just" compiling Clojure to C through chicken scheme I think
10:24	hyPiRion	duck1123: https://github.com/takeoutweight/clojure-scheme ? It was gambit scheme
10:25	jjl`	gambit's quite good at optimising things, so it should be quite fast
10:44	no7hing	to get this right: if i define a protocol in namespace a, create a record definition (not the instance of the record!) extending it in namespace b, i’ll have to require the protocol in all the namespaces that’ll use the record e.g. namespace c ?
10:47	clgv	no7hing: yeah but you only need to require namespace b when you want to create a record
10:48	agarman	anyone know of a way to remove the repetition when multiple functions use the same :or destructuring...e.g., https://www.refheap.com/86206
10:48	no7hing	clgv: i mean namespace a, when i’am actually calling the protocol function in e.g. nampespace c
10:50	clgv	no7hing: yes when you want to use the protocol you need to require its namespace. but that is not suprising since you have to require namespaces of functions you want to use as well
11:06	myguidingstar	why don't core.logic programs just follow Clojure naming convention for vars such as coll, x, m etc
11:07	myguidingstar	isn't it easier to catch up with than a, d... ?
11:09	scriptor	myguidingstar: as I understand it, they followed conventions previoulsy used by other logic libraries
11:11	myguidingstar	hmm, I find them quite annoying :)
11:13	no7hing	clgv: don’t know why i was expecting it differently ;)
11:16	bridgethillyer	e
11:22	michaniskin	hi bridgethillyer
11:22	bridgethillyer	Hi. That ‘e’ was colloquy stealing focus. Carry on. :)
11:24	michaniskin	bridgethillyer: just saying hi, e or no e
11:25	bridgethillyer	michaniskin: What’s new in Hoplon world?
11:27	michaniskin	bridgethillyer: haha some things, actually. been working on building a contrib library of jquery plugins and whatnot, and putting them in maven so they can be included in hoplon apps via maven deps
11:27	michaniskin	bridgethillyer: like this guy for example: https://github.com/tailrecursion/hoplon-demos/tree/master/jquery-date-picker
11:29	bridgethillyer	Nice!
11:29	michaniskin	you can now package css and other resources (like images) in your jars and they are dealt with automatically by hoplon in the application
11:30	michaniskin	like the css for that date picker
11:30	michaniskin	or twitter bootstrap
11:30	bridgethillyer	I really like your packaging, deployment stories, etc.
11:31	bridgethillyer	Y’all are clearly using this in production
11:31	michaniskin	the people i work for are pretty cool with open source, so most of that stuff was written for production apps
11:32	Hodapp	working for people who are cool with open source can be kind of a godsend.
11:32	bridgethillyer	YES.
11:37	cbp	,1
11:37	clojurebot	1
11:37	Shaun	anyone know where I can find clojurescript's goog namespace?
11:37	arrdem	,(+ 2 2)
11:37	clojurebot	4
11:38	cbp	$google goog namespace
11:39	lazybot	[Finding Your Way around the Closure Library - Google Developers] https://developers.google.com/closure/library/docs/introduction
11:39	cbp	Shaun: I don't know what you mean
11:40	cbp	Shaun: can you be more specific
11:41	Shaun	here's a code example: https://github.com/gf3/secretary#example-with-googhistory
11:42	Shaun	I can't find any api docs, or source code for the goog library, or at least clojurescript's wrapper around it
11:42	whodidthis	http://docs.closure-library.googlecode.com/git/index.html
11:43	cbp	Shaun: there is no wrapper around it. It is google's closure
11:43	cbp	Shaun: http://docs.closure-library.googlecode.com/git/class_goog_History.html
11:43	cbp	that's goog.History
11:44	Shaun	interesting, so :require works on JS libraries as well
11:44	cbp	Well clojurescript uses closure's module system so yes
11:45	Shaun	oh okay, that makes sense, thanks cbp!
11:45	cbp	np
12:49	sdegutis	If you use clojure.java.io/copy to download a URL (via clojure.java.io/input-stream) and save it to a file, would the whole file be stored in memory, or just the downloaded parts at a time?
12:49	technomancy	sdegutis: io/copy buffers it
12:49	arrdem	implementation defined behavior.
12:49	tbaldrid_	sdegutis: look at the source of io/copy :-P
12:50	sdegutis	The source points to a private function called do-copy.
12:50	sdegutis	Thanks.
12:50	technomancy	,(#'clojure.java.io/buffer-size nil)
12:50	clojurebot	1024
12:51	arrdem	tbaldridge: to what extent do you think I should be trying to emit compiler warnings that I'm doing constandard things like throwing away non-def top level forms?
12:52	arrdem	tbaldridge: warning that a banned class like Var is used as well..
12:53	tbaldridge	arrdem: well if it won't ever work, then throw an error. Like calling def inside an optimized function.
12:54	tbaldridge	so perhaps, error if it is a problem for sure. And warning if it's probably a problem. Otherwise trust the user?
12:55	tbaldridge	Maybe it would just be better to just mark all such cases with a generic call to a log function, then the warning/error levels can be changed at a future time
12:55	tbaldridge	or even via a command line option
12:56	arrdem	tbaldridge: hum... I'm not sure about the nested def thing, depends on what Alex comes back with on the dev list. Alxeander Yakushev asked about nested defs and I chimed in as impacted.
12:58	arrdem	tbaldridge: I'll definitely wind up with a build profile config map that specifies what transforms or whatever the final compilation mode abstraction is.. logging warnings and being careful about emitting all warnings is probably the way to go.
12:59	sdegutis	arrdem: how's the clojure compiler coming?
13:00	arrdem	sdegutis: lambda and letfn lifting works and is in 0.0.4, working on tree shaking which could be done in the next hour, then it's on to building a custom emitter I think.
13:01	sdegutis	Exciting!
13:03	ambrosebs	arrdem: nice
13:04	noncom	please remind me what compiler are you talking about?
13:04	arrdem	ambrosebs: I actually want to chat with you at some point about potentially using core.typed to create records implicitly
13:05	arrdem	ambrosebs: what'd you think of typechecking t.a.jvm?
13:05	arrdem	noncom: https://github.com/arrdem/oxcart
13:05	ambrosebs	https://github.com/frenchy64/tools.analyzer.jvm/blob/typed/src/main/clojure/clojure/tools/analyzer/jvm/typed.clj
13:05	arrdem	noncom: my GSoC project, one of two lean clojure projects
13:06	noncom	wow, cool!
13:08	ambrosebs	probably doesn't work anymore, but that's what I think ;)
13:09	arrdem	ambrosebs: :P
13:10	koreth_	arrdem: I was curious whether the two of you are attempting to coordinate your efforts at all. Or are your approaches so different that it wouldn't make any sense?
13:11	arrdem	koreth_: we've talked, and the answer is that our approaches are different. Alexander Yakushev is working on tuning the existing JVM runtime.
13:11	arrdem	koreth_: I'm trying to do whole program optimization that discards as much of the existing runtime as possible
13:11	arrdem	specifically the var subsystem, but the extent to which I can actually get away with that is up in the air.
13:12	koreth_	Experimentation is good. Hopefully both of you will end up doing some stuff that not only stands on its own, but can be partially integrated into the main compiler to make things faster for everyone!
13:12	arrdem	I may try and get him to introduce a StaticVar which has a `static` rawRoot value rather than a `volatile` rawroot.
13:13	arrdem	koreth_: for now my project is out in the 2.0.0 loony bin with the rest of tools.analyzer and tools.emitter, Alexander's work is 1.7/1.8 candidate material tho AFAIK.
13:13	noncom	do you know how soon may we expect the lean functionality be included in clojure? i understand that it is not even half developed, but maybe there are some estimations...?
13:15	arrdem	noncom: I'd say 1.7 TBH. Daniel Gomez and I were talking prior to my GSoC application and he mentioned that lean clojure GSoC work would likely be 1.7 material, hence my above comment.
13:15	arrdem	noncom: but it also depends on what Rich comes out with for build profiles and some other stuff. Also Alexander and I kinda need to finish so... who knows.
13:15	arrdem	(dec so)
13:15	lazybot	⇒ -25
13:15	hyPiRion	dec so?
13:16	noncom	so is a valuable resource. arrdem just consumed one :)
13:16	noncom	seen this paper: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Release.Next+Planning
13:16	arrdem	so is some guy with a very unfortunate name who chooses to lurk #clojure and disrupt my ERC nick highlighting.
13:16	noncom	exciting stuff all in all
13:17	hyPiRion	I was about to ask
13:18	arrdem	I've been voting him down for a while... the real answer is probably that I figure out how to make erc-highlight-nics ignore him and a dictionary of other obvious english words.
13:18	noncom	well, good luck with the work. hope to see some really cool things in 1.7 and also improve android-friendability
13:18	noncom	*friendliness :D
13:18	noncom	1.7 is next year?
13:19	arrdem	do I look like Rich? :P
13:19	hyPiRion	noncom: that is very hard to answer by anyone
13:19	noncom	ahah :)
13:45	mi6x3m	hey, clojure, what is more idiomatic for a namespace name
13:46	mi6x3m	my_lib_prefix/core
13:46	mi6x3m	or my.lib.prefix/core
13:46	cbp	probably my-lib-prefix.core
13:46	hyPiRion	mi6x3m: usually com.my-domain.lib/core
13:46	hyPiRion	otherwise as cbp said
13:47	mi6x3m	with "-" ?
13:47	cbp	sure
13:47	cbp	just make sure the filename is underscored though
13:47	arrdem	really? I'd say that your project should be "com.my-domain/lib" and then lib.clj is your entry file.
13:48	hyPiRion	arrdem: that's the project name, not the namespace name
13:48	hyPiRion	but sure, I agree with you
13:48	hyPiRion	(perhaps that's what mi6x3m actually meant?)
13:48	arrdem	hyPiRion: sure, but I see including the project in the namespace path as redundant and verbose.
13:49	mi6x3m	yeah I ment the namespace name, I understand _ are used for "-" in the file paths
13:49	hyPiRion	oh, right
13:49	arrdem	hyPiRion: I used to do it, but I'm fixing my old code to remove it when I see it again.
13:49	mi6x3m	thanks :)
13:49	hyPiRion	arrdem: Gotcha now. Removing .core namespaces and so forth
13:49	arrdem	hyPiRion: yarp.
13:49	arrdem	hyPiRion: for instance meajure is [me.arrdem/meajure "0.1.2"] (require 'meajure).
13:50	cbp	but single-segment namespaces =(
13:50	arrdem	up from (require 'me.arrem.meajure)
13:51	arrdem	cbp: the rationale is that you don't really want my name all over your codebase in every require, even tho I wouldn't really mind.
13:51	hyPiRion	arrdem: right. I still do com.hypirion.libname for consistency, and in case someone uses the same name on a different project
13:52	technomancy	arrdem: single-segment namespaces end up in the default java package though
13:52	irctc	my first time on an irc chat. if i'm doing anything incorrect please let me know. I have an error when clojure repl using cider-connect: Error: (error "Cannot decode message: ; CIDER 0.7.0alpha
13:52	technomancy	arrdem: it doesn't make sense to qualify your artifacts but not your namespaces
13:52	irctc	any help would be greatly appreciated
13:52	arrdem	irctc: known bug in cider, under investigation, just ignore it.
13:52	arrdem	irctc: it doesn't disable cider, it's just annoying.
13:52	irctc	ok
13:52	irctc	thx
13:53	technomancy	irctc: the cider on marmalade should be unaffected
13:53	irctc	it just doesn't give me the an error message when i do something wrong in the repl or call something incorrectly
13:53	gtrak	arrdem: I've been wondering about a leiningen re-root plugin.
13:54	arrdem	gtrak: what for?
13:54	arrdem	gtrak: oh to rename an entire ns tree?
13:54	gtrak	to address like multiple versions of a clojure dep. yea
13:54	irctc	I will try the the marmalade repo
13:54	irctc	thx again everyone
13:54	arrdem	gtrak: I've been playing with that idea too... some future version of Oxcart may support dep de-aliasing by version number at compile time...
13:54	technomancy	gtrak: have you seen metaverse?
13:54	gtrak	arrdem: about 2 years away on my mental queue :-)
13:54	gtrak	technomancy: no
13:55	arrdem	gtrak: technomancy already built something like this.
13:55	gtrak	of course he did.
13:55	technomancy	gtrak: poc https://github.com/technomancy/metaverse from a seajure hack night
13:55	hyPiRion	irctc: I presume that's a bug they're trying to fix in cider or find a good solution to it. Here's a pull request showing that they are aware of the issue at least: https://github.com/clojure-emacs/cider/pull/572
13:55	technomancy	spoiler alert: unless you can also re-root java classes, it's not a generally-applicable strategy
13:55	gtrak	awesome!
13:55	gtrak	technomancy: yea.. well, just don't use libraries that use anything but the standard lib.
13:55	gtrak	:-)
13:56	technomancy	problem solved
13:57	arrdem	it also means all your code will port trivially to cljx...
13:57	arrdem	if only we had a cljx standard
13:57	gtrak	technomancy: I think it's a useful thing in the context of codeq and future 'env-as-a-value' efforts.
13:58	technomancy	gtrak: yeah, I like the idea of namespaces becoming more of first-class values
13:59	arrdem	gtrak: did you see kiss's immutable namespaces?
13:59	gtrak	no!
13:59	gtrak	ah yea, mikera loves that stuff
13:59	arrdem	https://github.com/mikera/kiss
13:59	gtrak	that's the idea.
13:59	irctc	hyPiRion: thank you
14:00	gtrak	I want like a distributed repl with something similar to git-merge :-)
14:00	arrdem	https://github.com/dogecoin/dogecoin/pull/547 best issue evar
14:00	gtrak	arrdem: also netkernel.
14:01	gtrak	building on top of something like that would give our repls RESTful caching :-)
14:01	technomancy	arrdem: I have pondered whether replacing namespaces with actual values would involve changing clojure into something that's no longer clojure
14:01	gtrak	what is clojure?
14:02	arrdem	technomancy: I was just thinking about that as well and at an implementation level I think it'd make clojure a lot closer to javascript, but I like the idea of decoupling namespaces from our gigantic global var table.
14:02	hyPiRion	irctc: you're welcome. I hope there will be some fix available soon as well, as it's mildly annoying.
14:02	arrdem	gtrak: whatever rhicky says it is
14:02	hyPiRion	technomancy: I think the reason to not do that was for performance reasons
14:03	arrdem	hyPiRion: Oxcart will likely do exactly that internally for performance reasons :P
14:03	technomancy	hyPiRion: I feel like it's a compromise between performance and still supporting interactive development
14:04	technomancy	and to clarify I'd rather have retroactively-applied recompilation (which MLs lack) than immutable namespaces
14:04	technomancy	I just wonder if there's a way to get both
14:04	arrdem	technomancy: got a source on that? retroactive recompilation isn't something I'm familiar with or that google pulls up trivially.
14:05	technomancy	arrdem: well, imagine if you replaced ns-map with a regular phm that got swapped into an atom
14:05	hyPiRion	technomancy: I agree, but I'm not sure the people in control agrees with us
14:05	hyPiRion	or whether that would be a soft transition, for that matter
14:05	technomancy	arrdem: all consumers would point to the value of the fn at the time they were compiled, and if the fn got recompiled, they would call the old value
14:05	technomancy	which is how ML works
14:06	technomancy	hyPiRion: it would be easy to experiment in userspace if we had egalitarian-ns
14:06	arrdem	technomancy: sure. if I get my StaticVars that's how clojure may work in future as well.
14:06	technomancy	(which is what I'm calling the ability to have fully-qualified :my.ns/clauses in ns)
14:07	technomancy	arrdem: iiuc this is basically the whole reason vars exist
14:07	arrdem	technomancy: right, because if we did compile time static binding vars wouldn't need to be dynamic and we could get rid of them entirely which is what Oxcart seeks to do.
14:08	arrdem	technomancy: the issue is that we _have_ dynamic binding with vars, and people seem to like it, so what we could do is just add StaticVars which can't be altered and which provide better performance due to not having a transient root value.
14:08	technomancy	arrdem: this doesn't really have anything to do with dynamic binding
14:09	technomancy	I'm talking strictly about reloading
14:10	bhauman	technomancy: I’ve been abusing clojurescripts reloading behavior where old defenitions are just balsted awy by new defenitions
14:10	arrdem	technomancy: this impacts reloading as well because if you "silently" rewrite a var at application runtime by a backdoor repl, all the code will re-resolve the var next time it's used and everything will (hopefully) transition correctly. what you're saying (and I would tend to agree) is that reloading code _shouldn't_ have this transition effect but I may misunderstand.
14:10	technomancy	arrdem: yeah, from an implementation perspective they're related
14:11	gtrak	arrdem: isn't there some internal JVM API that they were considering using for this?
14:11	gtrak	i forget what that's called.
14:11	gtrak	jvm critical XXX something
14:12	arrdem	gtrak: look at me, now look the jira log, now look back at me now look at the core repo, do I look like I know what the core team is doing? I didn't think so.
14:12	gtrak	crap, this is incredibly relevant :-)
14:13	gtrak	it has to do with the polymorphic inline cache.
14:13	stuartsierra	The JVM has an internal feature called 'safepoints' but I don't think it's accessible.
14:13	gtrak	yea, that's what it is.
14:14	gtrak	arrdem: http://blog.fogus.me/2011/10/14/why-clojure-doesnt-need-invokedynamic-but-it-might-be-nice/
14:14	sdegutis	Does Clojure have a shortcut for creating and deleting a temporary file, along the lines of (clojure.core/with-open) ?
14:15	sdegutis	Right now I have an extra let-block with my (java.io.File/createTempFile) call, and later I call (.delete %) on it. But I'd love to be able to put it in with my (with-open) call or something instead.
14:16	arrdem	(defmacro with-temp-file [] ..)
14:16	gtrak	sdegutis: you could make a record and implement Closable.
14:16	sdegutis	Thanks.
14:16	gtrak	what am I, a clojure factory?
14:17	arrdem	I think we're all λ coffee → irc → code
14:17	kenrestivo	arrdem, technomancy: wasn't there a presentation on this at cljwest, and isn't there a gsoc project to do this?
14:18	arrdem	kenrestivo: this undefined please clarify
14:18	kenrestivo	eliminate dynamic vars for performance, arrdem
14:20	kenrestivo	http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8NUI07y1SlQ
14:20	tbaldridge	kenrestivo: yes there are two such GSOC projects, arrdem is working on one
14:20	kenrestivo	cool, thx
14:21	tbaldridge	kenrestivo: one uses the existing compiler to eek out a bit more performance, arrdem is working on a tools.analyzer "rewrite". And Rich is currently working on some surgical tweaks that should improve startup time: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/tree/fastload
14:23	kenrestivo	nice, that's all coming together faster than i expected
14:23	arrdem	"faster" riiiiight
14:24	tbaldridge	there's a ton of work to do, and none of these projects are very far along. More like three different approaches to a single problem.
14:24	tbaldridge	kindof, actually what Rich is working on is less about performance and more about startup time.
14:30	arrdem	LT 0.6.6 now live...
14:31	gtrak	node-webkit has some weird cross-platform issues with initialization.
14:31	gtrak	eg: certain things are available at different times, like node contexts.
14:32	gtrak	I'm still working through them.
14:32	gtrak	but it's super-fun with CLJS and weasel-repl.
14:33	gtrak	I guess LT is proof that it can work :-)
14:33	bhauman	arrdem: Do you what cljs version the new LT is using?
14:33	arrdem	bhauman: neg
14:34	gtrak	I haven't had any surprises at all with CLJS itself there, though seems like node has setImmediate but core.async can't see it.
14:35	gtrak	I thought I could use that to fix an async issue, but it turned out to be something else.
14:39	gtrak	does anyone have a node-webkit test runner?
14:40	daGrevis	What can I call first on hashmap? if hashmap doesnt have an order, there are no first entry and it's pure random.
14:40	gtrak	daGrevis: it does have an order, you just shouldn't rely on it.
14:41	gtrak	for instance, keys and vals will return things in entry-order.
14:41	daGrevis	gtrak, easy way to shoot yourself in foot, imo
14:41	arrdem	daGrevis: sure, but usually you use map or for or some other sequence comprehension over the whole map not first.
14:41	gtrak	,((juxt keys vals) {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3})
14:41	clojurebot	[(:c :b :a) (3 2 1)]
14:41	stuartsierra	`first`, like all sequence functions, implicitly calls `seq` on its argument. `seq` will give you a sequential view over any data structure, regardless of whether or not it is ordered.
14:43	gtrak	, (into {} (for [[k v] {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3}] [k (inc v)])) ;; here's where you might want to do that.
14:43	clojurebot	{:c 4, :b 3, :a 2}
14:44	daGrevis	hmm
14:46	lintomas	join #list
14:46	lintomas	:D
14:46	lintomas	sorry
14:46	gtrak	lintomas: you have joined a lisp.
14:47	daGrevis	how lisp is clojure?
14:47	gtrak	lisp isn't clojure, unless it's clojure.
14:48	daGrevis	hmm, again
14:48	technomancy	lisp stands for list processing
14:48	technomancy	since clojure supports data structures that aren't lists, it's obviously a bastard lisp. true lispers are happy to use nothing but lists.
14:49	daGrevis	ha:D
14:49	arrdem	technomancy: and run their CPUs at memory speeds chasing cons cells..
14:50	gtrak	pssh reality.
14:50	gtrak	lisp can mean 'lots of irritating silly parentheses', clojure has less of those.
14:51	p_l	it instead has extranerrous reader macros playing syntax ;)
14:51	p_l	though I do find it funny that Lisp's "syntax" is such an accident of laziness and "meh, good enough"
14:51	arrdem	p_l: the datastructures you want and reader literals that make you want to use them...
14:52	TimMc	Ugh reader literals.
14:52	gtrak	I rather enjoy the #js one.
14:53	daGrevis	<p_l> though I do find it funny that Lisp's "syntax" is such an accident of laziness and "meh, good enough"
14:53	daGrevis	haha nice
15:01	gtrak	Clojure has made me so anti-syntax, I just snarl when I see something clever-looking.
15:02	gtrak	while at the same time making it easier to pick up new syntaxes.
15:03	gtrak	by virtue of considering how anything could've better been implemented in macro form.
15:07	p_l	daGrevis: S-expressions are essentially "okay, we can input the programs in serialized AST, we will write the parser later"
15:09	johncash	has anyone worked on a version control software backed by clojureesque data structures
15:10	gtrak	johncash: seen codeq?
15:10	gtrak	it's kind of like that
15:11	johncash	that uses git for version control though
15:11	johncash	im talking about using clojure datastructures as the version control
15:11	gtrak	it imports git data into clojure datastructures.
15:11	arrdem	the difference being..?
15:11	gtrak	which means it could serve as a basis for something like that.
15:12	gtrak	it uses git like mercurial uses git when it says it's compatible with git.
15:12	johncash	ah
15:12	johncash	cool, thanks
15:13	johncash	(inc gtrak)
15:13	lazybot	⇒ 12
15:13	johncash	Kind of ironic that inc is side affecting here
15:14	gtrak	(swap! karma update-in [gtrak] inc)
15:14	piranha	yeah, should be kind of (swap! gtrack inc) :)
15:14	piranha	oops, s/ck/k
15:15	johncash	CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: gtrak in this context
15:15	johncash	;)
15:19	johncash	I am not a number, I am a man, a free man!
16:06	kenrestivo	maybe someone could rename inc to inc!
16:08	Glenjamin	(inc! kenrestivo)
16:14	arrdem	so er... tree shaking is lifting.
16:14	arrdem	s/lifting/working/g
16:24	akhudek	Apple’s new language has a LitghtTable like IDE. O.o
16:25	stompyj	yeah, it looks like what would happen if we threw dozens of devs @ lighttable for a year or so O_o
16:26	jjl`	they seem to have finally just gone and done all of the plumbing they should have done years ago
16:27	jjl`	quite an astonishing amount in a short time, unless they've been saving this up
16:34	alpheus	What do people use with Google's App Engine? appengine-magic has a lot of utility but it's using an old version of the sdk.
16:35	Glenjamin	has anyone seen any notes about the closed/open-ness of swift?
16:36	Glenjamin	given that they developed the whole thing in the dark i'm not expecting it to be very open
16:37	technomancy	Glenjamin: what, that new programming language created by the developers of Dylan and HyperTalk? I'm sure it'll be fine.
16:37	technomancy	s/developers/creators/
16:38	Glenjamin	i had to google those
16:38	Glenjamin	and from the results, i suspect sarcasm :)
16:38	Glenjamin	imagine if they'd spent this engineering effort on a language people already used =/
16:39	arrubin	Glenjamin: I suspect that he is referring to this: http://swift-lang.org/
16:39	Glenjamin	oh
16:39	arrubin	Although I do not know for sure.
16:39	arrubin	Apple even links to it on their Swift page.
16:39	Glenjamin	those other 2 languages were created by people at apple
16:40	arrubin	Glenjamin: I do not think that they are at Apple anymore.
16:40	Glenjamin	"even links to" -> "stole name of"
16:40	arrubin	I could be wrong.
16:40	arrdem	technomancy: have you heard anything about the build profiles system?
16:40	technomancy	arrdem: hm?
16:41	arrdem	technomancy: I'll take that as a no. Looking at http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Build+Profiles wondering if there's a build configuration datastructure I can build off of.
16:45	technomancy	yeah, that's news to me
16:46	arrdem	I figured that whatever they come up with would likely turn into leiningen config and that you'd know as a result. apparently not.
16:47	stompyj	arrdem: L2SOYLENT
16:47	stompyj	jk
16:48	technomancy	heh
16:51	Glenjamin	i was reading up on build-profiles earlier, seemed like they were looking to use build classifiers
16:57	arrdem	stompyj: but dead pigs are tastier than dead people...
17:02	stompyj	arrdem: well played
17:02	stompyj	(inc arrdem)
17:02	lazybot	⇒ 28
17:03	noncom\|2	actually, they say that human meat is rather tasty
17:03	sdegutis	"Haskell rules, Clojure sucks, and anyone who disagrees is inhuman."
17:03	sdegutis	Am I doing it right?
17:03	stompyj	hahahaha
17:04	stompyj	its funny, for both clojurists and haskellians, theres much better languages to be taking pot shots at then each other
17:04	sdegutis	I like Haskell, it's pretty cool.
17:04	sdegutis	Also Clojure is nice too.
17:05	stompyj	Yeah, if I had to use clojure or haskell at work
17:05	stompyj	life would be pretty sweet
17:05	sdegutis	While I don't like Perl, I'm not going to throw into question the intelligence of someone who does.
17:05	technomancy	sdegutis: then you'll never make it as a high-level troll master
17:05	stompyj	ASP.NET, BASIC, F#, PHP, there are plenty of languages I’ve had to use that were much more painful
17:06	technomancy	hesitation is seen as weakness
17:06	stompyj	COLDFUSION
17:06	stompyj	technomancy: I’m not sure if you’re being serious, but you’re right
17:06	arrdem	technomancy speaks the truth, you must unquestioningly bash the intelligence and sanity of all who oppose you
17:06	sdegutis	technomancy: those days are behind me.. these days I eat poptarts instead of trolling.. much tastier pasttime
17:06	arrdem	sdegutis: dude. tears are totally underrated
17:06	technomancy	sdegutis: heresy; zebra cakes are the best snack
17:07	systemfault	stompyj: I’ve heard nice things about F# (Didn’t try it though)
17:07	technomancy	poptarts are for quiche eaters
17:07	stompyj	some of us cant’ eat gluten anymore
17:07	stompyj	and miss said zebra cakes
17:07	stompyj	heh
17:07	arrdem	zebra eh?
17:07	technomancy	arrdem: I have no idea
17:07	sdegutis	technomancy: !!
17:08	sdegutis	stompyj: my son has a gluten allergy, we just found out.. :(
17:08	stompyj	systemfault: I wasn’t a fan, but i had to use it under distressing circumstances, and that may have been the issue
17:08	technomancy	sdegutis: I didn't grow up in this hemisphere
17:08	sdegutis	technomancy: that's quite an exaggeration.. poptarts easily rival zebra cakes
17:09	technomancy	stompyj: yeah F# really doesn't belong on a list with those other things
17:09	stompyj	sdegutis: I had “IBS and ‘anxiety’” issues for 13 years, spent probably a good 100k on tests (via insurance), etc. then one day my friend was like… stop eating gluten, and within 2 weeks I was right as rain
17:09	sdegutis	wooow
17:09	technomancy	sdegutis: stroopwafels or gtfo
17:09	stompyj	sdegutis: sorry to hear it tho, it’s a hard adjustment, mostly because gluten free is trendy and costs $$$ now :/
17:10	sdegutis	stompyj: meh, rice is surprisingly delicious, esp with hot sauce or butter or other flavorings
17:10	arrdem	stompyj: which is funny because it has zero correlation with improved health..
17:10	sdegutis	and many meats dont have gluten in them
17:10	technomancy	yeah, actually that's a drag; sorry to hear it
17:10	sdegutis	technomancy: now whos the one talking heresy sir
17:11	systemfault	stompyj: Really? I’ve been suffering from IBS for about 15 years now, if I have to go outside for a long time, I always get 2 immodiums to help :(
17:11	stompyj	yeah, its weird, I used to throw up at the mere smell of raw flour, and no doctor ever knew why…. now in retrospect, it makes all the sense in the world
17:11	sdegutis	technomancy: lets just agree that zebra cakes and brown-sugar and cinnamon poptarts are both the best food ever
17:11	systemfault	stompyj: Perhaps I should try a gluten-free diet.
17:11	stompyj	systemfault: I had the same issues, my wife lived in NYC and I was scared to go out where I wasn’t near a bathroom
17:12	kenrestivo	i'm fascinated by mefical/health trendiness. it's a lot like language trendiness. but then, these things do work for various people and situations, to varying degrees
17:12	stompyj	systemfault: you should, among the list of things gluten affected: upset stomach, acne, daily migraines, short term memory loss, sore joints
17:12	kenrestivo	er, medical
17:12	stompyj	once I stopped gluten for 2 weeks, it all went away
17:13	stompyj	systemfault: I might be cynical, but I now think that “IBS” is a doctors way of saying “I dont know, but you wont’ like that answer"
17:13	kenrestivo	i went vegan and solved some health problems that way
17:13	stompyj	kenrestivo: yeah, I do a meatless day a week now
17:14	sdegutis	hmm i do pizza rolls about once a day these days
17:14	stompyj	hahahahah
17:14	stompyj	JEALOUS
17:14	stompyj	totinos
17:14	sdegutis	dont worry im probably taking 50 years off my life this way
17:14	stompyj	I love them
17:14	stompyj	love(d)
17:14	sdegutis	at least you will live to like 125-ish
17:14	systemfault	stompyj: Thanks for the info, I guess it’s worth trying for 2 weeks.
17:15	stompyj	systemfault: yeah, it can’t hurt. I never liked gluten all that much, so it was easy to give up
17:15	stompyj	just have some rice or potato chips around all the time
17:15	sdegutis	rice is super cheap and super tasty with butter
17:16	stompyj	becuse if you cut gluten out you’ll cut your calories by like 75%
17:16	sdegutis	i could probably replace mac+cheese with rice+butter and be perfectly happy
17:16	sdegutis	wait hold on let me rethink that statement before i make it official
17:16	stompyj	yeah, get some good grass-fed butter, and it’s game on
17:16	kenrestivo	sumac is nice on rice too. and oil is nice if butter isn't an option
17:16	kenrestivo	#clojure-cooking
17:18	stompyj	systemfault: if you have any of those toher symptoms I laid out, definitely try and reduce gluten intake
17:18	stompyj	it made me a whole new person
17:19	systemfault	stompyj: Yeah :)
17:19	stompyj	gluten sensitivity is very common in “germanic” people as well
17:19	stompyj	in case you are of germanic stock
17:19	systemfault	I’m not but still good to know :P
17:21	sdegutis	Besides, vegetables are actually very filling if you eat the right amount of them.
17:22	cbp	sounds more like #clojure-microwaving
17:22	sdegutis	Did you ladies and gentlemen hear about the new Swift language, positioned to rival Clojure?
17:22	sdegutis	(at least on the iOS front)
17:23	bhauman	sdegutis: i have been working on a thin like swifts plaground for ClojrueScript
17:23	arrdem	iOS, which has no JVM, "rival", "clojure".
17:23	sdegutis	bhauman: fascinating, is it on GiThub?
17:23	bhauman	yeah I was gonna release it today
17:24	sdegutis	bhauman: Excellent. Your ideas are intriguing and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
17:25	bhauman	sdegutis: thanks man
17:28	stompyj	bhauman: you’re the cat who did the real time flappy bird post
17:28	stompyj	awesome
17:28	stompyj	all our devs here loved that
17:28	bhauman	stompyj: thanks man, you make me feel like I should learn sax
17:29	stompyj	oh! haha, becuase I called you a cat. I thought you knew I played jazz sax
17:29	stompyj	:)
17:29	stompyj	well, if you ever decide you want to learn, I can teach you :)
17:29	arrdem	hahah
17:30	bhauman	I play guitar
17:30	bhauman	folk guitar
17:30	bhauman	I’m in Asheville NC after all
17:31	bhauman	I didn’t know you played sax, whats up with Clojure and Jazz?
17:32	stompyj	Haha, two great tastes that taste great together :)
17:32	bhauman	Haha
17:32	stompyj	Maybe its the mathematical underpinnings of both
17:32	bhauman	that works for me
17:32	slpsys	mercifully, not everyone in asheville is required to play folk: http://makenoisemusic.com/modules.html
17:33	bhauman	yeah we have moog and moogfest
17:34	slpsys	true! i almost went with some coworkers, but flights were expensive by the time we were talking about it
17:35	bhauman	I missed it myself. I feel a little aged out of that stuff.
17:37	stompyj	mmmmmm, moog! the creamiest of synths
17:37	arrubin	Are the Ubuntu Clojure and Leiningen packages no longer maintained?
17:37	technomancy	arrubin: more or less
17:38	arrdem	just like ArchLinux org-mode T_T
17:39	Hodapp	stompyj: you don't prefer your synths to be very blocky-tasting, like the Yamaha DX7?
17:40	stompyj	Hodapp: haha, man, I’ve never been able to program those synths! I wish I loved them!
17:40	Hodapp	I think I like the TR808 better...
17:41	arrdem	Bronsa: ping
17:41	technomancy	babilen: ^ has there been any progress on the lein2 dependencies?
17:41	Hodapp	but, the DX7 or Casio's equivalents could do some interesting things. FM and phase modulation synthesis were interesting, but took a lot of work to get good results (i.e. not sounding like the 80's) from
17:42	kenrestivo	the dx7 electric piano sound was a scourge upon humanity
17:43	stompyj	Hodapp: yeah, I’m really inspired by all the programming that’s gone into them, but when I get in front of one myself, all the creativity drains from my soul. it’s frustrating
17:44	kenrestivo	you need a patch editor. i'm told that this guy rich hickey wrote a great one for the atari st
17:44	Hodapp	whaaaat?
17:44	Hodapp	stompyj: you like the idea of them, you just don't like them? :P
17:45	Hodapp	but, I am trying to learn Overtone myself. I'm not too adept at the music side of things but I'm trying to learn
17:46	stompyj	Hodapp: when I listen to patches people make, I’m in awe of them, but when I say “OK, I’m going to make a cool patch myself”, I end up doing nothing
17:46	stompyj	heh
17:47	Hodapp	stompyj: I have never dealt with a real analog synth but I played around with a bunch of tools that did the same synthesis technique, and really rather liked working with those
17:47	Hodapp	most of them I suspect were just doing variants on what Moog created
17:49	turbofail	i have a similar problem, i have plenty of musical training but no idea how to make interesting synth sounds
17:50	Hodapp	I have been using Overtone more to integrate some graphics into the event system
17:50	Hodapp	starting with Quil, hoping to move to Shadertone
17:50	Hodapp	too bad Quil only wants to work right on my Macbook. I get some wonky library error about something GL related if I try on my (much, much faster) Linux box
17:51	nbeloglazov	Hodapp: which quil are you using and what is the error you get on linux?
17:51	Hodapp	nbeloglazov: Can I let you know in a few hours when I'm home and can try it?
17:51	Hodapp	actually, let me see if I stuck a log file someplace I can find...
17:51	stompyj	Hodapp: yeah, I don’t use them as much as I wish I did.
17:52	nbeloglazov	Sure. Could you file an issue on http://github.com/quil/quil?
17:53	Hodapp	nbeloglazov: Sure, I'll try to do that tonight
17:53	nbeloglazov	Hodapp: thanks!
17:53	Hodapp	nbeloglazov: You a dev/maintainer/creator of Quil or something?
17:53	nbeloglazov	maintainer
17:54	Hodapp	nbeloglazov: alrighty, good to know :)
17:54	Hodapp	I love Processing, but want to stab Java in the face, and the Processing IDE at the same time.
17:56	stompyj	Hodapp: re: Overtone and music, don’t worry about being adept at the music side, music is just emotion and expression, which all of us have. Studying just allows us to move faster. If you enjoy yourself, it will all work out.
17:59	bbloom	dnolen_: congrats on being a thought leader
17:59	bbloom	actually, rock on entire clojure community
17:59	bbloom	::big hug::
18:00	tjgillies	is there a resource where this was called out or are you just being supportive in general?
18:00	bbloom	https://twitter.com/jckarter/status/473557476302802944
18:01	ambrosebs	wow!
18:01	arrdem	.... dang
18:02	tjgillies	today I learned about Swift
18:02	tjgillies	http://swift-lang.org/
18:02	tjgillies	is that what they were talking about ^ ?
18:02	bbloom	not that one
18:02	bbloom	https://developer.apple.com/swift/
18:02	bbloom	announced today
18:02	arrdem	no, today everone's day was ruined by the swiftpocalypse
18:02	tjgillies	oh
18:02	turbofail	lol
18:02	tjgillies	WWDC stuff
18:02	turbofail	pandemonium ensues
18:02	arrdem	thousands of programmers nerdsniped by the Apple hypetrain for a new lang
18:03	tjgillies	did not even notice
18:03	gtrak	yay walled gardens planted a new tree.
18:03	bbloom	oh c'mon now guys
18:03	dnolen_	bbloom: heh, yeah I was surprised by that
18:03	stompyj	swiftpocalypse, lol
18:03	arrdem	tjgillies: someone doesn't watch the hacker news frontpage closely enough..
18:03	nbeloglazov	So now there are 2 Swift languages?
18:03	dnolen_	but I guess my explanation was simpler and sometimes easier to just see an imlpementation
18:04	bbloom	dnolen_: oh yeah, damn academics and their big words and fancy symbols.... just fucking show me the code!
18:04	bbloom	:-)
18:04	gtrak	I'm still waiting for my llvm compiled linux distro :-)
18:04	bbloom	arrdem: gtrak: it's a big deal to a lot of folks who do iOS development & the language is actually quite well done
18:04	bbloom	arrdem: gtrak: plus, it has a Bret Victor-ian playground repl thing, so it's going to raise the bar
18:05	gtrak	bbloom: sure :-)
18:05	zerokarmaleft	haha, @worrydream: "okay, I just got out of my meeting, why is everyone texting me"
18:05	dnolen_	Swift shipped with a REPL and a friendly dev environment on day one
18:05	dnolen_	that's pretty crazy for a lang intro
18:05	gtrak	that just means they've been sitting on it for quite a while
18:05	akhudek	yeah, I was pretty shocked
18:06	bbloom	gtrak: sitting doesn't really describe what happens to get you to such a toolchain lol
18:06	bbloom	dnolen_: did you figure out how they are doing their time travel stuff?
18:06	gtrak	how many iOS dev utils were wasted during that time on Objective-C, heh.
18:06	bbloom	dnolen_: library level hackery, or functionally pure evaluator?
18:07	gtrak	utils in the econ sense
18:07	arrdem	gtrak: probably just enough to transition, depending on how hard they're pushing this thing.
18:07	bbloom	arrdem: i think no pushing is needed. people will flee objc in a hurry
18:07	arrdem	bbloom: no disputes of that here
18:08	gtrak	I'm sure it's a fine language, but will it let me write code and compile it on my iphone without a mac and a fee?
18:08	bbloom	swift also seems in the vein of coffeescript, clojure, elixir, etc... embrace the host
18:08	gtrak	I guess that's my fault for buying an iphone
18:08	tjgillies	I like that swift is ECMA
18:08	tjgillies	giant-shoulder-standing is nice
18:10	tjgillies	at least it says ECMA in wikipedia article, it also says citation needed
18:10	tjgillies	I'm kinda jealous we don't have an android native non-java language now
18:10	gtrak	I was hoping go would do that (android)
18:11	gtrak	like years ago..
18:11	nbeloglazov	android native non-java language - c++? :)
18:11	gtrak	UI toolkit?
18:12	Hodapp	ewww.
18:12	arrdem	native binaries are a poor idea on android generally... I'm a fan of using the JVM to smooth over hardware differences, but Dalvik can't be replaced too soon.
18:13	gtrak	arrdem: until the lawsuit you mean :-)
18:13	nbeloglazov	Well, dalvik is being replaced by art
18:13	tjgillies	even a non java android-official JVM language would be nice
18:13	arrdem	gtrak: le sigh. yeah. if they could get that out of the way and get on with building art that'd be awesome.
18:13	nbeloglazov	Though I don't know exact differences between them
18:14	gtrak	I'd be really happy with clojurescript and good bindings there.
18:15	tjgillies	clojurescript with swift as the host
18:15	tjgillies	birdscript?
18:16	arrdem	org.clojure/avian
18:16	gtrak	clojurescryft
18:16	cbp	it has to be lame so clojureswift
18:17	tjgillies	(inc cbp)
18:17	lazybot	⇒ 8
18:22	noncom\|2	clojurecrypt
18:28	bhauman	If swift lives up to its promises, this is a pretty big coup
18:28	Bronsa	arrdem: a bit late but pong
18:29	arrdem	Bronsa: no worries. I seem to be able to kill cider with this...
18:29	arrdem	Bronsa: (do (clojure.tools.emitter.jvm/load "clojure.core") (load <anything>))
18:29	arrdem	Bronsa: after reloading the core with your toolset I get interesting errors in ns-refers.
18:30	arrdem	Bronsa: this isn't blocking for me, just wanted to share.
18:30	Bronsa	arrdem: yeah I already know about that
18:30	arrdem	kk
18:31	Bronsa	arrdem: it has to do w/ how tej handles type hinting, related to TANAL-24
18:38	noncom\|2	someone said that swift is ecma. why is this good? (i know what is ecma)
18:38	turbofail	in theory that means there's a standard against which to build alternative implementations
18:39	turbofail	thus not leaving you trapped on iDevices
18:39	noncom\|2	interesting..
18:45	justin_smith	which will likely get about as much traction as gnustep and mono did
18:45	p_l	justin_smith: mono actually got a lot of traction...
18:46	p_l	(that's what runs Unity)
18:46	p_l	the game engine, that is :)
18:46	noncom\|2	i program for unity on my work)
18:47	justin_smith	I was going to say, unity is not all that popular (the ubuntu replacement for gnome, which I would not be at all surprised to hear was done in mono)
18:47	noncom\|2	nono
18:47	noncom\|2	the unity game engine
18:47	justin_smith	right
18:48	noncom\|2	oh i understand :)
18:48	cbp	Is it kosher to do (send agent whatever) ?
18:49	cbp	to uh send inside a send
18:49	noncom\|2	hmmm.. what about a recursive send?
18:49	cbp	actually i don't need to, nevermind
18:50	dbasch	I wonder if this book is worth the $25 http://www.packtpub.com/clojure-for-machine-learning/book
18:50	noncom\|2	but i think that would be fine.. unless you can refactor it to become unnecessary
18:50	gtrak	cbp: sure.
18:50	gtrak	that's like continuation-passing.
18:51	arrdem	dbasch: http://www.amazon.com/dp/1783284358/?tag=packtpubli-20
18:51	arrdem	dbasch: I'd call it 50/50
18:52	dbasch	arrdem: yeah, I read the reviews, figured it might do for some interesting bedtime reading
18:54	arrdem	dbasch: I'm gonna guess that it's probably got a two-three chapter Clojure introduction and the rest of it is a ML learning intro. Unless you're interested in the specific uses of Incanter etc. I'd probably go with a more general ML book, but that's just my 40Ɖ
18:54	justin_smith	dbasch: I got the packt press book on clojure performance optimization, it was a little rough around the edges in terms of the editing, and shorter page count than I expected, but it was a useful book with good content
18:54	dbasch	justin_smith: yeah, I got a review copy of that one
18:54	arrdem	justin_smith: would you suggest it?
18:55	justin_smith	arrdem: yeah, despite the high price/page it is good
18:55	rplaca	dbasch: I was a tech reviewer of the Clojure for ML book
18:55	dbasch	justin_smith: arrdem http://www.amazon.com/review/RER03X04ENOB4/ref=cm_cr_pr_perm?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B00GTE1RVW
18:56	rplaca	Whether it's a good buy depends on what you already know
18:56	arrdem	aw man the crap the TACC folks would give me for that title :P
18:57	arrdem	dbasch: cheers, I'll check it out.
19:00	rplaca	arrdem: that's not what that book is about at all
19:00	aphyr	What's the right way to encode dynamic state that controls how a macro works?
19:00	rplaca	it assumes you know Clojure from the get go - so it's a good reasonably mathematical intro to ML based in Clojure
19:01	arrdem	dbasch: oi rplaca reviewed the ML book.
19:01	rplaca	with a lot of dicussion of what resources are available
19:01	rplaca	*discussion
19:01	justin_smith	aphyr: dynamic compile time state?
19:01	technomancy	aphyr: for real?
19:01	aphyr	e.g. I've got a macro that compiles in one of two ways depending on a flag, and I'd like to do something like (binding [test-mode true] (my-macro whatever)) and have my-macro see test-mode true at compile time
19:01	rplaca	not too much Incanter - more core.matrix and stuff
19:02	technomancy	two macros?
19:02	aphyr	But naturally that isn't going to work because the binding takes effect at runtime, not macroexpand time
19:02	rplaca	It's not perfect, but I think it's a pretty good deal for $25
19:03	aphyr	been messing around with various permutations of eval/let but haven't figured it out yet
19:09	turbofail	aphyr: maybe bind test-mode when you require the namespace that uses said macro?
19:10	turbofail	kind of awkward but i don't know how else i'd do it
19:10	turbofail	other than technomancy's suggestion
19:10	aphyr	Yeah I think there have to be two macros
19:10	aphyr	just not sure how to get the state from one to the other
19:11	technomancy	impure macros just sound like a recipe for confusion
19:11	aphyr	technomancy: It's for writing tests for impure operations in Riemann.
19:12	aphyr	Ideally you'd like to compile the tests clean out when you go to production mode
19:12	aphyr	So test-mode says "Oh, just omit all the complicated locking/scheduling/IO code for this path"
19:13	technomancy	I would use namespace shadowing
19:13	aphyr	(or rather, "opt into all that code"; this is a test")
19:13	technomancy	test macro goes in test/ but overlapping dummy macro lives in src/
19:13	aphyr	also does suppression/capture of IO side effects, etc
19:14	PigDude	any fireplace.vim users also using cljx? I don't care about testing cljs from vim, but I need to compile the cljx files down, and also jumps point to generated clj files and not cljx
19:14	PigDude	or even using cljx successfully this way in emacs?
19:14	aphyr	technomancy: hmmmmmm, yeah, so I guess I could override the macro definition when running tests
19:14	PigDude	it takes 20s to build right now so it really gets in the way
19:15	technomancy	aphyr: two macros, they just happen to have the same name and namespace
19:15	bhauman	technomancy: can you namespace shadow a required lib?
19:15	bhauman	technomancy: It looks like a profile merge is the best way to do that?
19:15	aphyr	technomancy: Ideally this would be thread-safe so I could test while prod code is compiling
19:16	aphyr	So I guess I could def the macro itself as dynamic
19:16	aphyr	then bind it and eval the code being tested
19:16	aphyr	hmm that sounds like we're back to square one
19:16	technomancy	bhauman: sure
19:17	bhauman	technomancy: profile merge then?
19:17	technomancy	bhauman: you get profile merges for free with the default lein invocations
19:18	technomancy	bhauman: the only thing that's relevant here is that test/ is on the classpath during development but not during uberjarring
19:20	bhauman	technomancy: yeah I am thinking about writing a noop library to shadow out functionality that is in my source that I only want to work at dev time. But when others require the lib i don’t want the functionality to run.
19:20	technomancy	sure; that would make sense
19:21	bhauman	:dependancies ^:replace [[lib1] [lib2]]
19:27	pcn	Does anyone have a minute to test out modern-cljs tutorial-5 to see if I'm crazy or not?
19:28	pcn	s/I'm/my computer/ I guess
20:54	tomjack	if I'm inside a WriteHandler, can I decide to cache the entire object I'm writing?
20:54	tomjack	(in fressian)
20:56	tomjack	seems like it's too late?
21:05	arrdem	hum... it seems that persistent! is not recursive much to my surprise.
21:07	catern	woah! I did not know about clojure.repl/source, this is totally awesome
21:08	amalloy	arrdem: recursive?!?!?
21:09	arrdem	amalloy: if I have nested transients I'd expect to be able to persist the whole damn thing recursively with on call, but I guess the pointer semantics of that are dangerous.
21:09	amalloy	it's guaranteed to be like O(1); there's no way it should be traversing the whole data structure for any reason, let alone because you might be nesting transients
21:10	arrdem	,(doc persistent!)
21:10	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns a new, persistent version of the transient collection, in constant time. The transient collection cannot be used after this call, any such use will throw an exception."
21:10	arrdem	"in constant time". meh.
21:11	arrdem	all I want is a memory shared single update AST....
21:11	arrdem	don't really want to bust out my old CES code for this.
21:16	tomjack	what is even the point of writeAs?
21:16	tomjack	only useful if the object's class lookups to a solo entry with a magic "any"?
21:17	tomjack	I guess the fact that it throws an error if the tag is wrong might be useful
21:39	jumblemuddle	I'm trying to get a play-clj project setup, and working in vim with vim-fireplace. Atm I'm able to run a repl in the 'desktop' project directory, then start vim in a separate tmux window. In order to run the project I got to the desktop_launcher.clj file, and run the 'cpp' hotkey on the (LwjglApplication...) line, but when I manually close the game, the repl crashes.
22:38	eraserhd	,(flatten {:foo :bar, :baz :quux})
22:38	clojurebot	()
22:39	eraserhd	^^ Intentional?
22:39	aphyr	,(sequential? {:foo :baz})
22:39	clojurebot	false
22:39	dbasch	eraserhd: that’s not a sequence
22:39	aphyr	Docs do say it takes sequential things, so I'd expect a type error, not empty list.
22:39	dbasch	(doc flatten)
22:39	clojurebot	"([x]); Takes any nested combination of sequential things (lists, vectors, etc.) and returns their contents as a single, flat sequence. (flatten nil) returns an empty sequence."
22:40	nullptr	,(flatten (seq {:foo :bar, :baz :quux}))
22:40	clojurebot	(:baz :quux :foo :bar)
22:40	eraserhd	Ah, not seqable.
22:40	eraserhd	Which makes sense, actually. I mean, that it doesn't do seqables, not that it gives ().
22:41	MagBo[MURT]	hey beautiful people
22:42	MagBo[MURT]	I'm a complete clojure newb, planning to use it only for clojurescript
22:43	MagBo[MURT]	I've cloned React/OM tutorial (project.clj: https://github.com/jalehman/react-tutorial-om/blob/master/project.clj) and trying to run ``lein ring server``
22:43	justin_smith	~flatten also
22:43	clojurebot	excusez-moi
22:44	justin_smith	~flatten
22:44	clojurebot	flatten is rarely the right answer. Suppose you need to use a list as your "base type", for example. Usually you only want to flatten a single level, and in that case you're better off with concat. Or, better still, use mapcat to produce a sequence that's shaped right to begin with.
22:44	justin_smith	also
22:44	MagBo[MURT]	I get an X window spawned for some reason :D how do I make it run in console.
22:44	MagBo[MURT]	s/\./?
22:44	justin_smith	lein ring server-headless
22:45	eraserhd	,(apply concat {:foo :bar, :baz :quux})
22:45	justin_smith	the X window is needed because it wants to use the X api to make your browser open the page it serves
22:45	clojurebot	(:baz :quux :foo :bar)
22:45	MagBo[MURT]	justin_smith: much love your way, sir.
22:45	justin_smith	server-headless makes it not try to do that
22:50	rs0	i have a question about the Clojure 1.6.0 Java API
22:51	rs0	according to the release notes, the only Clojure classes that are not supposed to be considered implementation details are IFn and clojure.java.api.Clojure, which has #read and #var
22:51	rs0	i've got an open source project that does the equivalent of defmethod using pure Java code by directly invoking methods on the MultiFn class
22:52	rs0	i'd like to migrate to the official Java API, but I don't see a way to do that, since defmethod is basically a macro around a call directly into MultiFn.addMethod
22:58	justin_smith	wouldn't you be limited to sending strings to be interpreted as clojure code if IFN and clojure.java.api.Clojure are your only clean points of access?
22:58	justin_smith	perhaps you could write a clojure stub that would define the multimethods, and can be invoked easily from the java side?
23:05	rs0	justin_smith: currently this is a pure Java library. i could write a clojure stub of course, but that would add some complexity to the build process
23:06	rs0	justin_smith: but i can use Clojure#var to resolve arbitrary clojure functions and then invoke them. so i'm not limited to eval if that's what you're asking
23:06	rs0	justin_smith: this particular case is the only sticking point, actually. everything else i need to do, i can see how to do with Clojure and IFn
23:07	rs0	of course, macros are functions too... maybe i can just try invoking defmethod like anything else
23:09	gastove	....does lein merge profiles automatically?
23:09	rs0	gastove: what do you mean? lein includes five different profiles by default
23:10	gastove	Say, if you've got .lein/profiles.clj with {:user foo} and a project_root/profiles.clj with {:user bar}, do you get a map with {:user foo bar}?
23:10	gastove	Or do you need to tell lein to merge 'em?
23:11	gastove	(I suppose I mean {:user [foo bar]})
23:15	trptcolin	straw poll: should it always be “syntax quote”? always “syntax-quote”? depends on part of speech (verb / noun)? depends on something else?
23:16	justin_smith	I think syntax-quote is the clearest
23:16	gastove	I'd argue that a "syntax quote" is a quote in a syntax, whereas as a "syntax-quote" is easier to understand as its own noun.
23:18	trptcolin	sweet, sold, it was a blowout
23:19	gastove	Is there a way to view the current project map within a lein repl?
23:20	gastove	See what's getting loaded in each profile?
23:25	trptcolin	gastove: not that i know of from the repl, but lein-pprint can be useful for that sort of thing: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/tree/master/lein-pprint
23:26	gastove	trptcolin: Hey thanks! Turns out there's also a cli tool -- `lein show-profiles`, with an optional argument of the profile you'd like to see vars for.
23:26	gastove	(I dunno why it took me so long to try `lein -h`.)
23:27	trptcolin	nice