#clojure – 2014-05-30

2014-05-30

00:06	l1x	hi guys
00:07	l1x	what is the best way of type hinting the return value, i have seen two versions of placing the type
00:07	l1x	a, right after the defn b, before the param vector
00:08	l1x	seems both working
00:13	l1x	i guess it is just a matter of style
00:24	mange	It seems that putting it on the args vector also lets you hint different arities differently.
00:29	l1x	yes that is true
00:32	hellofunk	anyone in here using Heroku?
00:33	beamso	i have used heroku before
00:33	ddellacosta	hellofunk: I have used Heroku + Clojure
00:33	ddellacosta	hellofunk: do you have a related question?
00:33	hellofunk	I'm trying to figure out the best workflow for development that doesn't involve me having to push to git every little change.
00:33	hellofunk	Or,
00:34	beamso	run your app locally using foreman
00:34	hellofunk	perhaps a way to just do the dev locally without having to tear down and restart the web server
00:34	hellofunk	if I make a change to a route, it is not reflected even locally unless I stop and restart the lein run process
00:34	hellofunk	i.e. a reload doesn't do it
00:34	hellofunk	er, refresh of pahge
00:35	beamso	using 'lein ring server'?
00:35	hellofunk	so i'm using the lein run -m option, not advisable?
00:35	hellofunk	that's in the Heroku tutorials
00:37	beamso	i use the lein-ring plugin
00:37	hellofunk	ok let me read up on that
00:38	beamso	i need to check if it will allow for the changing of a route
00:40	technomancy	hellofunk: you should do development from a repl
00:40	technomancy	hellofunk: do `lein new heroku myapp` and work from there; it should pick up changes to your routes on reload
00:41	technomancy	lein run only makes sense if you won't be making changes
00:41	beamso	the lein-ring plugin will let you add routes on the fly
00:41	technomancy	lein-ring doesn't make much sense for heroku deploys
00:42	beamso	true. i meant for running stuff locally.
00:42	hellofunk	technomany ideally i'd like to be able to compile the clj source and have it reflected immediately in my running web process. if I have the repl going this would do it?
00:43	technomancy	hellofunk: definitely
00:43	hellofunk	is it "lein repl" or "lein run lein repl" as the latter is noted in the Heroku docs, what is the difference?
00:44	hellofunk	oh sorry, just "lein repl" not "heroku run lein repl"
00:44	technomancy	you need them both
00:44	technomancy	one is for local dev and one is for testing things remotely
00:45	technomancy	(replace lein repl with editor integration if you like; from this perspective they're the same)
00:45	hellofunk	so for local dev, I do lein repl and it reports this: nREPL server started on port 58360 on host 127.0.0.1
00:45	hellofunk	however visiting localhost:58360 does not make a connection
00:46	technomancy	basically the -main function starts the web server, so once the repl is running, call that function and you're good to go
00:46	hellofunk	I can connect via emacs fine
00:46	hellofunk	how do i view the web page I am working on?
00:46	technomancy	run (-main 5000)
00:47	hellofunk	technomancy this is typed at a terminal prompt, not a repl? sorry for these newbie confusions
00:47	Jaood	hellofunk: your open port of 58360 is for the nrepl not the web server
00:48	technomancy	hellofunk: the -main function of your program should start a web server; if you used the `lein new heroku myapp` template, then it will
00:48	technomancy	so in a repl you would require your main namespace, switch to it, and run that function
00:49	hellofunk	ok, let me try
00:54	hellofunk	so cider doesn't automatically create the repl port, you must do that independently with lein, right? and then use cider to connect to the port lein provides.
00:55	Jaood	hellofunk: you can connect to a running repl from cider, I usually prefer that
00:56	hellofunk	ok folks, i got this puppy fed and bathed. it's working and smiling now, ready to be petted.
00:56	technomancy	hellofunk: cider-jack-in launches a repl server
00:57	Jaood	err what technomancy said :P
00:58	hellofunk	technomancy on this type of setup, what is the best way to do a simple password protect on a page similar to a .htaccess on Apache?
01:00	technomancy	hellofunk: you can write a route or a middleware that checks http basic auth
01:00	hellofunk	ok
01:00	hellofunk	similar to how the repl/ works over http?
01:00	technomancy	yeah you can reuse the same http basic auth stuff for that
01:00	hellofunk	word!
01:09	hellofunk	this default heroku template is certainly less intimidating than the compojure template
01:29	hellofunk	is it possible to put a newline inside a pr or pr-str, etc
01:29	beamso	,(pr-str "foo\nbar")
01:29	clojurebot	"\"foo\\nbar\""
01:30	beamso	i need to look at my local docs. don't mind me.
01:34	hellofunk	beamso no problem i figured out my issue
01:34	beamso	cool
02:09	hellofunk	ddellacosta how is your OAuth2 for Friend different than the OAuth2 built into Friend?
02:09	hellofunk	it came up in a clojars search
02:09	ddellacosta	hellofunk: there is oauth2 built into friend?
02:09	hellofunk	http://friend-demo.herokuapp.com/
02:10	hellofunk	Well, at least it supports OAuth2 with GitHub, maybe yours does more?
02:10	ddellacosta	hellofunk: that uses my lib
02:10	hellofunk	ah, well that explains it
02:11	ddellacosta	hellofunk: and actually is kind of old, gotta update that and make a PR
02:11	hellofunk	is OAuth2 basically a competitor of OpenID?
02:11	ddellacosta	told cemerick I would a while back...d'oh
02:11	ddellacosta	hellofunk: er, actually no, since OAuth2 is technically an authorization protocol, and OpenID is for authentication
02:11	hellofunk	I see Google supports both OAuth2 and OpenID
02:12	ddellacosta	hellofunk: although sadly everyone uses oauth2 as authn these days
02:12	hellofunk	oh really? is using OpenID (which Friend is mostly providing) a bad idea?
02:13	dbasch	hellofunk: it’s not a bad idea, it depends on what you’re using it for
02:13	dbasch	openid can be used in place of a user/password sign-in for a web app, for example
02:13	hellofunk	I've been tasked with setting a basic page that allows users to login via Google and Facebook
02:13	dbasch	you can delegate the authentication to google or facebook via openid
02:14	dbasch	if you need to access google or facebook information on behalf of the user, then that’s what oauth is for
02:14	ddellacosta	I would argue using openid for authentication is arguably a better idea than using oauth2, since it is actually an authentication protocol by design
02:14	hellofunk	Friend doesn't explicitly mention Facebook in its OpenID list but FB does not support it
02:14	hellofunk	sorry, FB does support it
02:40	resolve-this	.
02:56	luxbock	I'd like to add :source-paths for the dev profile in Leiningen for a project I've already been working on for a while
02:56	luxbock	is there a lein command/plugin that will create the path/files for me after I add the :source-paths option in my profiles.clj or should I just do it by hand?
03:10	resolve-this	Hello everyone, I'm having a hard time understanding a weird behavior in parameter metadata.
03:10	resolve-this	I'm defining a function as (defn my-fn [^{:something #'another-fn} p1 ] ...)
03:10	resolve-this	When I retrieve p1's metadata by going through something like (-> (meta #'my-fn) (:argslist) (first) (first) (:something))
03:11	resolve-this	The result is not #'the-ns/another-fn but "(var another-fn)" of type .........
03:11	resolve-this	clojure.lang.Cons!
03:11	resolve-this	But if I go through this process in the REPL, things work as expected
03:11	resolve-this	any clues about what am I doing wrong that's causing this?
03:14	amalloy	metadata on arglists is probably not evaluated, since the arglists themselves aren't evaluated
03:15	resolve-this	hmmm
03:16	resolve-this	and it works on the repl because the repl evaluates my var usage?
03:19	amalloy	i dunno, i don't understand what you're saying about "if i do x it doesn't work, but if i do x in the repl it doesn't"
03:21	resolve-this	er, what I'm saying is that if I run the code in the repl, it works.
03:21	resolve-this	but when running in the context of a ring app, that's the behavior I'm getting
03:33	resolve-this_	amalloy: anyway, seems like you're right, metadata in parameters does not seem to be evaluated
05:02	kral	namaste
05:12	ddellacosta	kral: howdy
05:22	bob2	hm, well that was a surprise ending for -social
05:49	josteink	/msg NickServ identify Maliks41
05:49	josteink	well bugget
05:50	Pandachips	better change that :)
05:50	josteink	aha
06:07	kral	ddellacosta: your surname sounds italian :)
06:08	ddellacosta	kral: it is indeed! I am American but my father's family is originally from Italy.
06:09	kral	ddellacosta: and you live in Tokyo? :D
06:09	ddellacosta	kral: yeah, ha, complicated. :-)
06:09	ddellacosta	kral: you are in Italy?
06:09	kral	ddellacosta: yep, Vicenza, near Venice.
06:10	ddellacosta	kral: very nice. I am embarrassed to say I have not yet been to Italy. :-(
06:10	ddellacosta	kral: it's high on the list though.
06:11	ddellacosta	kral: would love to know if I still have distant relatives there
06:11	kral	ddellacosta: della costa is quite a common surname afaik
06:12	kral	so it's highly possible :)
06:12	ddellacosta	kral: really? It's quite uncommon in the U.S. But it makes sense that it would be common in Italy, since the meaning seems so general
06:13	phillord	one of the joys of biology is that you will have distant relative in Italy, and every other country as well!
06:14	kral	phillord: :)
06:14	ddellacosta	phillord: haha, very funny. ;-)
06:15	ddellacosta	phillord: let's say...less distant than in most other countries, and more distant than my relatives in the U.S.
06:15	kral	ddellacosta: anyway, here is a map of Italy with statistics about "Della Costa": http://bit.ly/1nzPCxu
06:15	phillord	Finding them may be a little bit more challenging
06:15	ddellacosta	kral: wow, thanks!!
06:16	kral	ddellacosta: yw
06:16	ddellacosta	kral: neat, it has an American map too
06:17	hellofunk	ddellacosta looking at the source to the Friend demo, I see a lot of ring requests getting destructered against keywords that don't seem to normally be there, like :demo and :context, any idea what that might be?
06:18	ddellacosta	hellofunk: can you give me a link to a specific line or lines?
06:19	hellofunk	starting with this: https://github.com/cemerick/friend-demo/blob/master/src/clj/cemerick/friend_demo/openid.clj
06:19	hellofunk	in the route, it calls functions in this on the request: https://github.com/cemerick/friend-demo/blob/master/src/clj/cemerick/friend_demo/misc.clj
06:20	hellofunk	here, line 28 forexample https://github.com/cemerick/friend-demo/blob/master/src/clj/cemerick/friend_demo/misc.clj#L28
06:21	hellofunk	here's another one where :demo is pulled out: https://github.com/cemerick/friend-demo/blob/master/src/clj/cemerick/friend_demo/misc.clj#L19
06:21	cemerick	hellofunk: it's just application metadata, added to all requests here: https://github.com/cemerick/friend-demo/blob/master/src/clj/cemerick/friend_demo.clj#L64
06:22	ddellacosta	cemerick, and correct me if I'm wrong, but context is via compojure's context? https://github.com/weavejester/compojure/blob/master/src/compojure/core.clj#L164-L176
06:22	cemerick	ddellacosta: correct
06:22	ddellacosta	hellofunk: ^
06:22	hellofunk	interesting
06:24	hellofunk	this library looks like just what I needed. i assume it's getting its tired kicked nicely in production?
06:24	hellofunk	*tires
06:44	ddellacosta	hellofunk: were you talking about friend? I think it's gotten a fair bit of tire kicking
07:31	noncom	is there a way in clojure for a function to get the outer form of the callsite?
07:32	noncom	example: https://www.refheap.com/86106
07:33	agarman	http://clojure.github.io/clojure/clojure.reflect-api.html
07:34	noncom	whoa, that's a whole of a lot!
07:34	agarman	I haven't used that before, so I'm reading through it as well.
07:35	noncom	i feel like clojure will soon become self-aware
07:42	agarman	,(defmacro cur-fn [] `(-> (Throwable.) .getStackTrace first .getClassName)
07:42	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
07:42	agarman	,(defmacro cur-fn [] `(-> (Throwable.) .getStackTrace first .getClassName))
07:42	clojurebot	#'sandbox/cur-fn
07:42	agarman	,(defn foo [] (println (cur-fn)))
07:42	clojurebot	#'sandbox/foo
07:42	agarman	(foo)
07:42	agarman	,(foo)
07:42	clojurebot	sandbox$foo\n
07:43	agarman	that's a horribly performing way to get the name
07:43	agarman	,(defn bar [] (println (cur-fn))
07:43	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
07:43	agarman	,(defn bar [] (println (cur-fn)))
07:43	clojurebot	#'sandbox/bar
07:44	agarman	,(bar)
07:44	clojurebot	sandbox$bar\n
07:51	lcn	help
07:51	agarman	lcn: what's up?
07:55	noncom	agarman: cool :)
07:59	TimMc	noncom: Is this for a logging fn?
08:00	noncom	TimMc: yeah, that was the intended use
08:07	noncom	TimMc: do you maybe have any prososals for that?
08:08	phillord	Hmm, everytime I try to submit a bug report on core.logic it says "session expires" no matter how long ago I logged in
08:09	noncom	is it on jira?
08:09	phillord	yes
08:10	phillord	well, the bug isn't -- haven't managed to submit it yet:-)
08:10	phillord	ah
08:10	phillord	third time lucky
08:10	noncom	jira - no wonder then
08:10	noncom	this is just the way it works
08:11	cab_	hey folks
08:11	noncom	you could first file a bug on jira so that they fix this and you be able to file a bug on core.logic
08:11	noncom	cab_: hey, how is it going?
08:11	phillord	now I've marked a small issue as major, because that's the default -- ah well
08:12	TimMc	noncom: Not really any other good ideas, but I do have another hack you can use: If you use a macro and it emits an anonymous fn, that fn's classname includes the enclosing fn's name...
08:12	Guest6187	great, I'm dabbling in Clojure using Lighttable
08:12	TimMc	&(class ((fn some-name [] #())))
08:12	lazybot	⇒ sandbox5671$eval12039$some_name__12040$fn__12041
08:13	TimMc	...which also "looks past" any intervening fn layers.
08:14	Glenjamin	isn't that essentially the same as using the relfect api in a macro?
08:14	noncom	TimMc: hah, another neat thing :)
08:14	Glenjamin	erm, the throwable trick in a macro even
08:14	Guest6187	Can I ask you guys a quick question? How do I undef a symbol? I defined a variable named min and shadowed the fn from clojure.core-
08:14	Glenjamin	ie. it doesn't matter if its slowish because it happens at build time
08:16	TimMc	Glenjamin: Not quite. What if you had this? (defn top-level [] (map (fn intervening [] (callsite?)) ...))
08:16	Glenjamin	ah, i see
08:16	TimMc	I think callsite? would pick up the intervening fn, but not top-level.
08:16	Glenjamin	yeah
08:17	TimMc	noncom: ...but it's even hackier than the stack trace approach.
08:18	noncom	well, it's a fun challenge to find the hackiest hack hackever! :D
09:46	TimMc	noncom: (defn toplevel [] (println (:line (meta (def __foo__))))) and then read in the source file and backtrack to the start of the defn form and grab the symbol.
09:47	TimMc	(Sometimes I scare myself.)
09:48	TimMc	OK, time for some best practices instead of worst practices. Is there a tool I can use to find all expressions in tail position that match a certain pattern?
09:48	TimMc	(I'd like to find any place where I'm relying on (log/error ...) to return a nil.)
09:54	TimMc	Does https://github.com/clojure/tools.analyzer just not have any docs?
09:59	ambrosebs	TimMc: are you looking for something in particular?
10:02	TimMc	I was hoping to see a usage example in the README at least, or even better a listing of the basic tools that are provided by the project.
10:02	TimMc	s/or even better/and\/or/
10:03	kandinski	is there anything like (apply f args) but for macros?
10:03	TimMc	It's less important now; I've realized that looking for tail-position forms is actually a tricky task in and of itself.
10:05	TimMc	(For instance, I'd want to look for things at the end of catch and finally forms, but also the last form in a try form before catch or finally.
10:05	TimMc	)
10:06	mmitchell	anyone know how to tell lein ring uberwar to _not_ include the clojure source files?
10:09	mmitchell	Ahh, AOT?
10:10	TimMc	I think that will still include them.
10:10	TimMc	You might be able to use a filter...
10:11	ambrosebs	TimMc: sure. You probably want tools.analyzer.jvm. The main entry point is analyze. https://github.com/clojure/tools.analyzer.jvm/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/tools/analyzer/jvm.clj#L446
10:11	TimMc	mmitchell: :uberjar-exclusions
10:11	ambrosebs	play around with at the REPL like: (analyze '(+ 1 2))
10:11	TimMc	ambrosebs: Cool, thanks!
10:12	ambrosebs	but before you start
10:12	ambrosebs	..
10:12	ambrosebs	{:user { :injections [(set! print-level 10) (set! print-length 10)]}} }
10:13	ambrosebs	put that in your profiles.clj
10:13	TimMc	heh
10:13	ambrosebs	or gradually inspect the output like
10:13	ambrosebs	(-> (analyze '(+ 1 2)) keys)
10:13	TimMc	Yeah, that's the kind of stuff I'd like to see in the README.
10:13	ambrosebs	(-> (analyze '(+ 1 2)) :fn keys)
10:14	ambrosebs	yea
10:14	ambrosebs	it's pretty easy to pick up as a consumer
10:14	TimMc	(I'd write some docs and send a PR, but... yeah.)
10:14	mmitchell	TimMc: ok thanks, going to try that!
10:14	TimMc	mmitchell: You might need to add ^:append or something so you don't stomp on the existing values, not sure.
10:14	gfredericks	TimMc: why don't we have a bot that turns PRs into tickets w/ patches?
10:15	TimMc	gfredericks: !
10:15	gfredericks	and auto-closes them
10:15	TimMc	Good idea.
10:16	gfredericks	then the project maintainers can have their own bots that turn tickets+patches into PRs so they can click "merge"
10:16	TimMc	Bots for everyone!
10:17	gfredericks	we don't need to argue about what tools we're using; we have computers, we can use whatever we want
10:17	ambrosebs	TimMc: open a wiki page
10:17	TimMc	ambrosebs: For now though, this suffices: grep '/((fatal\|error\|warn\|info\|debug\|trace)f?\|logp?)' -P -nr --include=*.clj --color=always -A 3 -B 3 . \| less -R
10:18	TimMc	I don't think the wiki is a good idea.
10:18	gfredericks	while you smart people are here, I've been thinking about static typie things ever since reading that two year old fight that rhickey had on reddit
10:18	TimMc	There are very few piecs of documentation that shouldn't be versioned with the code.
10:20	gfredericks	in particular using the motivating thought that anything I know about the code, I should be able to communicate to the computer; I was wondering whether it would be useful to have some sort of open system of documenting "things I know about the code", for various tools to hook into for the purpose of reasoning/optimizing/whatever
10:21	gfredericks	such that you could be able to say things about your code without having the burden of needing a guarantee that a tool understands them
10:21	bbloom	gfredericks: things to say == logical propositions?
10:21	gfredericks	e.g., I could flag a function as pure, just because I wanted to, and if a type-checker or optimizer or something can take advantage of that, then cool, and if not I can still say it
10:21	gfredericks	bbloom: yeah
10:22	gfredericks	I feel like a traditionally understood static type system is more restricted than what I'm imagining
10:22	bbloom	gfredericks: yeah, what you're describing is related to theorem provers
10:23	bbloom	in theory, you don't actually need to prove the theorems you've postulated
10:23	bbloom	er theory is the wrong word
10:23	bbloom	substitute "i guess you don't actually have to...."
10:24	bbloom	the big problems here are of motivation, maintenance, usefulness, etc
10:24	bbloom	even formulating properties to write down, without actually proving them, can be quite difficult
10:24	gfredericks	at worst it would just serve as documentation for other programmers
10:25	gfredericks	if it's an open system we don't have to design it correctly up front?
10:25	bbloom	um, i wouldn't go that far :-P
10:25	gfredericks	thus my question mark :)
10:26	gfredericks	s/design it correctly/figure out all the things that can be said/
10:26	bbloom	if you have logical propositions, you can't actually do anything useful with them without interpreting them using a particular logic
10:26	gfredericks	the things you do with them don't have to be strictly formalized; they could turn into warnings, e.g., based on heuristics
10:26	bbloom	and so if you just kinda ad-hoc make statements & then try to extract value from them later, you're going to get wildly inconsistent value judgements for those propositions as you add/remove/change logical operations
10:27	bbloom	so there's on going research in to extensible theorem provers and the like
10:27	bbloom	but you really need to make sure you design the fundamentals well: you need a good strong logic theory with good computational properties
10:28	gfredericks	I feel like I'm capable of asserting what types my function accepts/returns without answering these questions :)
10:28	bbloom	if you're interested in this, i suggest you make an attempt to learn Coq or Twelf or one of the other popular theorem provers
10:28	gfredericks	I'm in the middle of idris
10:29	hyPiRion	gfredericks: Is that like, the deepest you can go into a programming language? If you're in the middle of the forest, any step you take leads you back out.
10:29	gfredericks	hyPiRion: yes.
10:30	gfredericks	s/I'm capable of/I should be capable of/
10:30	bbloom	hyPiRion: heh, awesome
10:31	gfredericks	this is probably the kind of thing ohpauleez was talking about @clojurewest 1.5 years ago isn't it; I missed that talk
10:32	ohpauleez	my ears are ringing :) hitting the scrollback
10:32	cbp	,(System/getProperty "java.version")
10:32	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>
10:33	hyPiRion	gfredericks: maybe? I just did that joke because someone recently told me that I'm currently in the middle of the forest of RRB-trees.
10:33	ohpauleez	It's pretty close to what I was talking about!
10:34	ohpauleez	What has me interested in this area lately is Amazon's wide adoption of Lamport's TLA+ for their distributed systems
10:35	gfredericks	oh that rings a very small bell
10:35	ohpauleez	In practice, I've seen ROI for capturing just a few subsystems with something like Alloy, and using generative testing for the system as a whole
10:35	ohpauleez	as you get into distributed systems, that's where the current approaches fall apart
10:35	gfredericks	I've been using test.check IRL at the integration level a lot lately
10:36	ohpauleez	TLA+ is potentially one answer, and simulation testing is potentially another
10:36	ohpauleez	exactly, test.check and test.generative is great at that level
10:36	gfredericks	test.check wasn't really designed for it; I've had to bend it a bit
10:36	ohpauleez	Regardless, I still think there's a generic notion of "specification" that can be interpretted, combined, and processed by many systems
10:37	ohpauleez	I have specs that run in Alloy and core.logic
10:37	gfredericks	ohpauleez: what sort of API for writing specs?
10:37	gfredericks	I was imagining just throwing metadata on things
10:39	ohpauleez	bbloom is right though, specs/assertions/logical invariants are mostly meaningless until you have a larger system to run them. You're either looking at SAT solvers that find missing/invalid cases, or you're looking at time-clock based provers that push the system off of the state machine
10:39	ohpauleez	gfredericks: The talk at Clojure west used maps to capture specs. An old version is still public: https://github.com/ohpauleez/sterling
10:40	ohpauleez	https://github.com/ohpauleez/sterling/blob/master/src/sterling/example/filesystem/fs_sterling.clj
10:41	ohpauleez	there's an example of hitting Alloy (back then, it was still strings), but the API in a privat version matches closely to test.check
10:41	gfredericks	cool
10:41	ohpauleez	Here's the full spec as a value: https://github.com/ohpauleez/sterling/blob/master/src/sterling/example.clj
10:41	ohpauleez	from there you can generate checked versions, contracts, tests, generators, examples, etc
10:41	ohpauleez	that
10:42	ohpauleez	that's the power of a (logical) specification
10:43	ohpauleez	it's a point at which you can derive all other subsystems/results. bbloom and I learned some portions of Z in school. While I understood the math/notation, the system is obtuse and large
10:43	ohpauleez	I grasped Alloy in a weekend, and in a month could use it effectively
10:43	bbloom	ohpauleez: i don't recall doing any Z in school
10:43	ohpauleez	As I said, I'm not digging into TLA+
10:44	bbloom	ohpauleez: i never did any theorem proving at all really :-P
10:44	ohpauleez	bbloom: 202, I think? Req Spec and Validation
10:44	gfredericks	ooh do we get to accuse people of learning things in school?
10:44	gfredericks	TimMc and I learned mumps in school
10:44	bbloom	ohpauleez: maybe? i kinda tuned out my entire computer science education
10:48	gfredericks	bbloom: ohpauleez: well thanks guys -- knowing that I'm (of course) not being original will help me think about other things :)
10:49	ohpauleez	gfredericks: Ping me if you want me to take a look at anything, or you're looking for texts. I can certainly help steer you clear of some long dark alleyways
10:49	ohpauleez	:)
10:50	gfredericks	ha will do
11:07	scape	is there a difference between #^ and ^ for hints?
11:08	cbp	#^ is old and I don't know if it works anymore
11:08	cbp	it probably does i guess
11:08	scape	it seems to
11:08	scape	okay
11:17	gfredericks	does anybody frequently see (in cider) "Variable binding depth exceeds max-specpdl-size" when trying to eval stuff?
11:21	ambrosebs	tpope: is it my fault if I :exclude or rebind clojure.core vars that fireplace assumes is in scope?
11:42	jonasen	gfredericks: i've seen that error. Never really figured out where it came from. Something with the ns form if I'm not mistaken
11:43	gfredericks	jonasen yeah I got it to work correctly after commenting an (in-ns ...) expression higher up o_O
12:16	technomancy	gfredericks: max-specpdl-size refers to the stack
12:17	technomancy	it's just MACLISP-ese for a stack overflow
12:31	cbp	hrm why is stuff like assert-args private?
12:32	mmitchell	How can i get "lein ring" to inject servlet-request and servlet-request to the request map? I've seen this before, just can't remember how it's done.
12:32	arrdem	cbp: because argument validation is lame?
12:33	cbp	arrdem: that's just like, your opinion man
12:33	cbp	:-P
12:33	ohpauleez	cbp: You don't want to use :pre and :post?
12:33	ohpauleez	are you in an anon function?
12:34	cbp	ohpauleez: yea
12:35	ohpauleez	cbp: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure/em68MIYWDjQ
12:36	ohpauleez	You could always just wallhack it and pull it out into your own util ns, copy-paste, or submit a patch to tools.macro
12:37	cbp	Oh well, it's not that needed
12:37	ohpauleez	cool cool
12:41	ohpauleez	cbp: You still just might do a (def assert-args #'core/assert-args) if you want a quick and dirty way to get at it to get the job done
12:41	cbp	ohpauleez: yep :-)
12:43	jcrossley3	mmitchell: ultimately that happens via ring.util.servlet: https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring/blob/master/ring-servlet/src/ring/util/servlet.clj#L60
12:43	jcrossley3	probably after deploying the result of 'lein ring war' to a servlet container
12:47	rasmusto	jcrossley3: Tolkien reference?
12:48	jcrossley3	rasmusto: sure! :)
12:48	mmitchell	jcrossley3: ok cool, but how can i get that working locally with "lein ring server"? Do I just need to setup my own function for running an embedded jetty?
12:52	jcrossley3	mmitchell: 'lein ring server' runs an embedded jetty but doesn't wrap the handler in a servlet
12:54	mmitchell	ahh right
12:55	mmitchell	so i have to wrap my handler somehow?
12:55	mmitchell	ahh! must be this? https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring/blob/master/ring-servlet/src/ring/util/servlet.clj#L131
12:55	jcrossley3	mmitchell: yes
12:56	mmitchell	jcrossley3: thanks!
12:56	jcrossley3	np
12:59	benkay	http://lethain.com/a-couple-of-clojure-agent-examples/ << does this really do what it says on the tin, with regards to writing to a single file in a multithreaded context?
13:01	gfredericks	benkay: I believe so
13:03	ohpauleez	benkay: I would use mapv instead of those doall maps, if you're going to snag some of the code
13:03	ohpauleez	and obviously, those anon funcs can just be the function itself
13:03	ohpauleez	ie: (mapv deref agets)
13:04	ohpauleez	I also might (def dispatch (comp send-off agent)), and use that instead
13:04	benkay	thanks, folks
13:15	featureenvy	Question: I have a vector of points in x y z coordinates (e.g. [1 0 0 3 2 2] where [1 0 0] is one point and [3 2 2] is the other). Now I want to move the points by one in X direction (result should be [2 0 0 4 2 2]). What is the best way to do this in Clojure?
13:17	dbasch	featureenvy: first off, I would partition 3 your vector into actual points, if you need to treat them as individual things
13:17	dbasch	,(partition 3 [1 0 0 3 2 2])
13:17	clojurebot	((1 0 0) (3 2 2))
13:18	dbasch	and then map a function that increases the nth coordinate
13:18	dbasch	but that’s for cleanliness
13:21	dbasch	e.g.
13:21	dbasch	,(map (fn [[x y z]] [(inc x) y z]) '((1 0 0) (3 2 2)))
13:21	clojurebot	([2 0 0] [4 2 2])
13:21	cbp	I would remodel points too. to be maps {:x .. :y .. :z ..}
13:21	featureenvy	dbasch: Thanks! I seem to always forget the existance of partition. :)
13:22	featureenvy	cbp: I thought about that, but in the end I will need them as a single vector again thanks to WebGL.
13:23	cbp	Nothing wrong with having an interface layer that just turns those maps into vectors imho.
13:26	featureenvy	In my case I have only one function that generates the points and pushes them directly to WebGL, I won't even touch them anymore. I kinda hope I don't have to add one more indirection.
13:27	cbp	okies
13:27	devn	hmmm, this future of programming business sounds interesting
13:27	devn	(strangeloop session)
13:42	seancorfield	devn: yeah, some tough choices on the pre-conf stuff
13:43	seancorfield	my colleague and i went for Powered by JavaScript in the end as being more relevant to our work but several of the workshops look like fun, as well as the Future of Programming day...
13:44	Glenjamin	i worry with things like powered by javascript what the intended audience is
13:52	seancorfield	Glenjamin: in what way?
13:52	seancorfield	I think it's an interesting space - even tho' I despise JS itself
13:53	whilo	is nikita prokopov from datascript fame here?
13:54	Glenjamin	seancorfield: in that i'm unsure if its aimed at JS lover, JS haters, beginners, intermediates or advanced users
13:56	Jabberz	so is H2 still the preferred embedded Java DB of choice for clojure.java.jdbc?
13:57	Glenjamin	bah, can't decide if i should go to strangeloop
13:57	Glenjamin	or something more directly work related that doesn't involve travelling to america
13:59	hiredman	I tend to prefer derby, when I have tried using H2 I always run in to concurrency related issues, h2 seems to default to single threaded use, and I am always too rushed to figure out which all knobs I have to fiddle to get it to not throw exceptions when I try to insert from multiple threads
14:02	Jabberz	hiredman: ah, thanks for the feedback on that. I notice a lot of examples tend towards sqlite, which I have been burned back in the day on concurrency with as well
14:12	seancorfield	Glenjamin: I suspect the PbyJS day will have something for everyone on that spectrum :) I'm going because I'm interested in SPAs and we're using ClojureScript / Om at work, and I want to learn more about the ecosystem, even tho' I "hate" JS :)
14:12	Glenjamin	interesting, maybe i will give it a go then
14:13	seancorfield	as for traveling to the USA, I can't speak to that - I have never traveled overseas for a conference - but my past two times at Strange Loop have been the best conferences I've attended in a decade or so...
14:13	Glenjamin	i currently do loads of JS including Node.js at work, and don't mind the language really
14:14	Glenjamin	if you stick to functions and values its fine, not that many people actually do that
14:18	wink	Not exactly sure what you would use in a programming language besides functions and values
14:18	wink	or do you mean objects? :P
14:18	Glenjamin	yes
14:19	Glenjamin	and javascript's weird prototype/new/this stuff
14:20	technomancy	seems like the ecosystem can force your hand in situations like that
14:20	Glenjamin	to an extent, yeah
14:20	Glenjamin	the node module ecosystem has been converging on functions and streams, so its not too bad
14:21	Glenjamin	but often i go into the guts of a lib and its lots of messy heavy-indent long functions
14:33	Frozenlo`	Oh boy... 'java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate cljs/analyzer__init.class'
14:36	mmitchell	technomancy: is it possible to override an existing leiningen plugin task with :aliases? I thought this was possible at one point but I can't seem to get it to work now.
14:37	technomancy	mmitchell: it should work
14:41	mmitchell	technomancy: ok good. I want to use the "lein ring" plugin, but only the uberwar task. Everyone on our team is already using "lein ring server" to start the dev server, but now we need to customize jetty a bit. So I want to alias "ring server" with my own task.
14:41	mmitchell	I have this set in my project.clj file :aliases {"ring server" ["run" "-m" "dev-server/start-server"]} -- does that look OK?
14:42	technomancy	mmitchell: ah, you can't alias subtasks
14:42	mmitchell	oh i see
14:56	amalloy	technomancy: presumably it's more accurate to say that you can only alias tasks: "ring" is a task, and "server" is an argument it accepts
14:56	technomancy	amalloy: this is an also-true superset, yeah
15:06	erlis	how to debug with emacs cider
15:07	benkay	any notion on what "clojure.core$agent cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Agent" means? i'm baffled by the $agent terminology
15:07	erlis	NSA
15:08	cbp	benkay: maybe you just passed the fn agent where it was expecting an actual agent?
15:08	cbp	,agent
15:08	clojurebot	#<core$agent clojure.core$agent@9e5972>
15:08	erlis	anyone, how can I debug a function call with emacs cider?
15:08	erlis	,debug
15:08	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: debug in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
15:08	cbp	,(send agent (fn []))
15:08	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.core$agent cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Agent>
15:09	erlis	, (+ 1 2)
15:09	clojurebot	3
15:09	benkay	cbp: (class my-agent) returns clojure.Lang.Agent
15:09	erlis	wow I didn't know I have a REPL here
15:09	stuartsierra	benkay: `agent` is a function in Clojure. You're probably using that where you think you have a local variable named `agent`.
15:10	benkay	yup, thanks stuartsierra
15:14	amalloy	erlis: the question you're asking is way too vague. just repeating it won't get you a better answer. try explaining what you mean by "debug a function call"
15:15	erlis	amalloy: I want to see step by step
15:28	TimMc	erlis: "Debug a function call" could mean many things.
15:31	erlis	just want to see step by step the execution of a function
15:31	erlis	with the REPL I can invoke a function and see the result
15:32	erlis	result is wrong, I would like to see the values step by step, maybe is not possible
15:32	erlis	I remember someone showed me a library (trace) or similar
15:32	erlis	probably I can use something like this
15:33	erlis	hmmmm https://github.com/clojure-emacs/cider-tracing
15:42	yotsov	erlis: I have heard that it should be possible to put breakpoints in clojure code and use a debugger with counterclockwise. Have not tried it myself.
15:42	stuartsierra	erlis: True step-by-step debugging in Clojure requires a JVM debugger, which works just fine but will not integrate with CIDER/Emacs.
15:42	stuartsierra	JSwat is a free JVM debugger known to work with Clojure.
15:43	erlis	I see, I don't require true step-by-step, but at least visualize, I think I can use the cider-tracing package
15:43	stuartsierra	There's also tools.trace, https://github.com/clojure/tools.trace
15:44	erlis	stuartsierra: That can help too thanks!
15:46	jcromartie	how do I connect to a Leiningen project from Light Table?
15:47	cbp	ctrl+space -> connect I think
15:47	jcromartie	From the connection bar, I can select a project.clj, and it does nothing.
15:47	jcromartie	From a project.clj I can Cmd + Shift + Enter, and it says "Connecting" forever
15:47	jcromartie	my project is fine
15:48	jcromartie	latest version of Light Table
15:48	jcromartie	relatively simple project.clj which can be run by Leiningen just fine
15:48	Raynes	It's clearly a philosophical message. It's about how we're all going through our lives, trying to connect with other people.
15:48	Raynes	We are "Connecting..." forever.
15:49	jcromartie	beautiful
15:49	arrdem	Raynes: I have some spare glue if you want it... plenty to go around
16:12	PigDude	what might trigger this reflection warning? "reference to field getPath on java.lang.Object can't be resolved." the line it refers to is a function docstring?
16:14	rhg135	hmm
16:14	dbasch	PigDude: refheap?
16:15	PigDude	dbasch: https://www.refheap.com/17d783212ba59852473c6bd3f
16:16	dbasch	PigDude: getPath is a method on File that something must be calling
16:16	PigDude	oh ok, then it must be coming from cljx?
16:16	PigDude	it happens earlier in the compilation process than other warnings
16:17	PigDude	my tests don't touch the filesystem
16:17	PigDude	(apart from loading clojure code)
16:17	dbasch	but all those functions look file-y to me
16:18	PigDude	the log store backend can be file-based, right now it is working with localstorage, in-memory storage, and sql (korma)
16:18	PigDude	if i were testing a filesystem backend then i might expect that but the code has no io calls right now except for the korma backend
16:19	dbasch	so is there a getPath somewhere in your core?
16:19	dbasch	*code?
16:19	PigDude	not at all
16:20	PigDude	ah, yea, the message is coming from cljx
16:21	PigDude	https://github.com/lynaghk/cljx/blob/master/src/cljx/core.clj#L73
16:22	PigDude	thanks dbasch
16:22	dbasch	np
16:34	arrdem	hum... ideas for testing a code emitter besides just evaling the output and ensuring that the result is the same as clojure.core/eval gives?
16:39	augustl	arrdem: made me think of Scheme implemented in miniKanren http://2013.flatmap.no/danwill.html :)
16:41	arrdem	augustl: I mean automated proof that they must eval to equivalent results would be sweet too :P
16:42	augustl	around 0:45:00 :)
16:43	arrdem	augustl: I'll check it out in a minute
16:49	shaun	anyone here use clojurescript router, Secretary?
16:50	amalloy	~anyone
16:50	clojurebot	anyone is anybody
16:50	amalloy	i hate you, clojurebot
16:50	augustl	what, you mean there's something that isn't compojure around? :)
16:51	amalloy	shaun: the point is: whatever your real question is, you don't need to wait for someone to say "yes, i use secretary" before you can ask it
16:52	shaun	I find client-side routing confusing, not sure how to connect the "secretary/dispatch!" function to the page events
16:52	shaun	surely I don't need to use goog.History
16:59	lduros	hi, new to clojure, I just installed leiningen with cider, which shows: CIDER 0.7.0snapshot (package: 20140530.419) (Java 1.7.0_55, Clojure 1.5.1, nREPL 0.2.3)
16:59	lduros	when I do (1 2 3) looking at clojure in action, I get the following error:
16:59	lduros	ClassCastException java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn user/eval564 (NO_SOURCE_FILE:1)
17:00	gfredericks	,(1 2 3)
17:00	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
17:00	lduros	Isn't (1 2 3) a valid list?
17:00	gfredericks	^ it's not just you
17:00	gfredericks	lduros: sort of
17:00	lduros	so why is the example in clojure in action showing the following first example: (1 2 3 4) which can contain items of any type
17:00	hiredman	lduros: it is a list as data, but as code lisp treats lists as function application
17:01	hiredman	if you don't evaluate it as code, it is a valid list
17:01	hiredman	,'(1 2 3 4)
17:01	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4)
17:01	lduros	hmm, ok
17:01	gfredericks	some things in lisp/clojure syntax mean the same thing as code or data -- but other things are treated differently
17:01	lduros	ok, got it, they are not examples intended to be tried as is, ok
17:19	l1x	hey guys how can i swap an atom that is a string?
17:20	dbasch	,(swap! (atom "") str "hello")
17:20	clojurebot	"hello"
17:20	cbp	l1x: wat
17:21	hiredman	l1x: atoms are atoms, strings are strings, atoms being a refence type can point to or hold a string
17:21	hiredman	but an atom cannot be a string
17:21	l1x	dbasch: thanks
17:37	fifosine	If I have an atom in a web application that is mutated with the swap! function via a post method, how are the changes persisted? Even when I restart my server, I still see the changes. How is this possible?
17:38	hiredman	fifosine: it isn't, so you aren't seeing what you think you are seeing
17:38	l1x	dbasch: is there a way to replace the content of an atom instead of keep adding stuff to it?
17:38	fifosine	hiredman: How am I seeing what I'm seeing?
17:39	turbofail	l1x: reset!
17:39	hiredman	fifosine: you aren't, you are seeing something else, most likely I think you aren't actually restarting your server
17:40	l1x	turbofail: could you shoot me an example?
17:41	turbofail	~(let [a (atom 0)] (reset! a "foo") @a)
17:41	clojurebot	No entiendo
17:41	fifosine	hiredman: Here's my start and stop server code http://pastebin.com/HK4i98c2, does it look like atoms should reset?
17:41	turbofail	,(let [a (atom 0)] (reset! a "foo") @a)
17:41	clojurebot	"foo"
17:42	hiredman	fifosine: you aren't actually restarting the jvm
17:42	hiredman	fifosine: you are restarting some server code running in the jvm, so of the course the atom just stays in memory between runs
17:42	fifosine	hiredman: Ok, good to know then
17:44	KeithPM	hello all, is anyone running Session?
17:44	amalloy	l1x: most of the time if you want to use reset! it's because you're using the atom wrong to begin with. it's not unheard of, but it should be rare
17:46	l1x	amalloy: ok so what is the best way of rebinding a variable ? just use a closure?
17:47	arrdem	tbaldridge: you mentioned in your tools.analyzer talk when you demo'd the partial evaluator that you didn't think it would yield any meaningful improvement. is there a reason for that comment or just because your partial wasn't very aggressive?
17:48	tbaldridge	arrdem: that and the JVM is already insanely good at optimization. So stuff like constant folding is pretty much pointless, the JVM does that already
17:49	dbasch	l1x: what do you mean by rebinding a variable? you have an atom that points to a value, you can apply an arbitrary function to that value and replace the old value with the result
17:50	l1x	i just would like to have a while loop and swap the atom by every iteration but instead of keep adding to it i want to replace the content, reset! does that
17:50	l1x	i was wondering if recur would be better suited for this
17:50	dbasch	l1x: are you sure you need an atom then?
17:50	l1x	no, i dont need an atom :)
17:50	gtrak	l1x: or reduce.
17:51	arrdem	tbaldridge: mmk. suggestions for an app I could try to load for tree shaking tests? I'm curious how much I'll be able to throw out realistically.
17:53	tbaldridge	arrdem: you could probably go with just about any library and use an example from it. But to start with you'd probably want something pretty basic...
17:54	tbaldridge	are you planning to do tree shaking of clojure.core? If so you can probably just do a simple factorial function and confirm that the output of the compiler is just a few calls to clojure.lang.RT
17:56	arrdem	tbaldridge: yeah I'll shoot for that first.
17:57	arrdem	tbaldridge: I'm just wondering whether the loading approach I take now will even allow me to analyze the clojure core the way I look at other namespaces. I think I'll have to force oxcart to reload the clojure core for analysis because otherwise it's already loaded in the runtime and the eval/load replacement I provide won't be invoked on it.
18:01	kliph	is it possible to add a docstring to each arity of a multiple arity defn?
18:01	arrdem	kliph: no, arities are simply methods and only the containing class has a docstring.
18:01	hiredman	no
18:01	kliph	k thanks
18:03	kliph	so any docstring in the defn would have to describe the multiple arity-ness
18:03	arrdem	should document all arities, yes.
18:05	Morgawr	http://jackschaedler.github.io/goya/ just stumbled upon this, it's pretty cool
18:05	Morgawr	would love to have something like this inside LightTable for example, as a plugin
18:08	amalloy	kliph: after all, nobody could look up the doc for a particular arity, right? you can't write (doc foo 2) or whatever
18:08	amalloy	there's only one place to put the docstring, so it all has to go there
18:09	{blake}	soap-clj...is that what we have for SOAP in Clojure?
18:10	kliph	amalloy: yeah my next question was going to be, how would I find the docstring for both arities :)
18:11	dbasch	soap :(
18:12	{blake}	dbasch, It says so little, and so much...
18:15	beepbeep_	Can anyone tell me whats the difference between these two functions? https://gist.github.com/aaronmu/4c025dee6c26b8394c67
18:16	beepbeep_	bottom one doesnt work, cant figure it out :(
18:17	aperiodic	beepbeep_: the second one could be trying to (apply nil ...), which causes an NPE
18:17	hiredman	beepbeep_: define "doesn't work"
18:17	{blake}	So, is it felt that there's nothing to be gained from SOAP, or it's just not a high priority for...anyone...yet.
18:18	aperiodic	beepbeep_: or possibly message would be unhappy to be handed nil
18:18	hiredman	aperiodic: he could have run out of heap right there
18:18	broquaint	{blake}: That was my understanding of things when I last looked.
18:18	hiredman	aperiodic: his disk could be full
18:18	hiredman	etc etc etc
18:18	beepbeep_	aperiodic an npe is exactly what happens
18:19	beepbeep_	I still don't understand why though
18:19	cbp	,(apply nil)
18:19	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core/apply>
18:19	hiredman	beepbeep_: pastebin the whole stacktrace
18:19	aperiodic	hiredman: given that the difference is that method can be nil a lot more easily in the second one, that's probably the issue
18:19	{blake}	broquaint, lol, which? That there's no point to doing it at all? Or "Well, we'd like to have it but we can get around the lack for now"?
18:19	arohner	has anyone gotten quil to work w/ an nrepl workflow? when I re-eval the quil namespace, the second sketch window opens up with size 0x0
18:20	hiredman	beepbeep_: the stacktrace will tell you where exactly the error happens
18:20	broquaint	{blake}: The latter :)
18:20	{blake}	broquaint, thanks!
18:21	beepbeep_	hiredman, I'm using LightTable to try out clojure, I'm not getting a stack trace in this case :(
18:21	dbasch	beepbeep_: the first one fails if both method and message are nil, the second fails if just method is nil
18:21	hiredman	beepbeep_: if lighttable is hiding useful information like stacktraces I would recommend not using it
18:21	beepbeep_	hiredman, it usually does not.
18:22	dbasch	beepbeep_: so you probably have cases in which method is nil but message is not
18:22	beepbeep_	okay, I'm gonna try to provide a better paste
18:22	hiredman	beepbeep_: then it sounds like a bug in lighttable
18:22	beepbeep_	because this aint making sense
18:22	beepbeep_	gimme a sec :)
18:23	amalloy	beepbeep_: i mean, the first version figures out which function to call, and then calls it; the second version blindly attempts a call to method even if it doesn't exist
18:23	beepbeep_	yeah, I get that
18:23	beepbeep_	I'm providing a message
18:23	beepbeep_	sec, providing better gist.
18:23	amalloy	uh huh. that's why it doesn't work. you're trying to call the method instead
18:24	beepbeep_	uh-oh
18:24	beepbeep_	ofcourse.
18:24	beepbeep_	superblind :(
18:25	arrdem	(doc cond->)
18:25	clojurebot	"([expr & clauses]); Takes an expression and a set of test/form pairs. Threads expr (via ->) through each form for which the corresponding test expression is true. Note that, unlike cond branching, cond-> threading does not short circuit after the first true test expression."
18:25	amalloy	but uh, this clojure code looks like you're trying to reinvent ruby. better to leave idioms from an old language behind and figure out how things are done in the one you're learning
18:25	beepbeep_	amalloy, that's exactly what it is, well yeah no, I'm reinventing cheap object system like java's.
18:26	beepbeep_	it's an exercise
18:26	beepbeep_	no worries.
18:26	beepbeep_	https://leanpub.com/fp-oo
18:26	tbaldridge	beepbeep_: if you want a cheap object system, just use deftype
18:26	amalloy	and my experience re: light table is that most of the time when i hear about it it's when someone says "how come x doesn't work?" "x works fine" "oh well it doesn't work in light table"
18:27	tbaldridge	(inc amalloy)
18:27	lazybot	⇒ 115
18:27	tbaldridge	same experience here
18:28	beepbeep_	tbaldridge, I'm not actually going to use this, as said, it's an exercise.
18:28	dbasch	well, light table is still not close to a 1.0 release
18:29	dbasch	it’s pretty good for what it is but nobody should expect emacs
18:29	arrdem	dbasch: unfortunately we have emacs and therefore expect the same.
18:29	arrdem	dbasch: I backed LT and have been consistently disappointed with the beta for exactly that reason.
18:30	dbasch	arrdem: the instant gratification generation :P
18:30	amalloy	well, that's silly. don't expect emacs. if you want emacs, just use emacs
18:30	amalloy	now, i think it's reasonable to expect a clojure evaluator that evaluates clojure correctly
18:30	cbp	it's been really slow moving lately, i think they switched to this new aurora thing
18:31	dbasch	amalloy: I’d definitely expect that from something that called itself a 1.0 version
18:32	beepbeep_	cbp, yeah, think so too, read some blog posts from author, looks like he's fully going for aurora
18:32	arrdem	dbasch: it's not that I expect ibdknox to be able to turn out emacs overnight, it's that until LT >= emacs I have no reason to switch.
18:32	dbasch	arrdem: yeah, and I doubt anyone would switch from emacs to LT anyway
18:33	arrdem	dbasch: now that I'm entrenched with an erc config and org mode I probably wouldn't anyway, but it'd be nice to have a serious alternative I liked.
18:33	dbasch	arrdem: LT would be for people who’d laugh at you for using emacs and call you old :)
18:33	arrdem	dbasch: hey now I need something to make my node_js# classmates shut up about atom :P
18:34	amalloy	dbasch: you can't just call yourself 0.x and absolve yourself of all expectations. people paid money for light table, with an "estimated delivery" of last May. they wanted a clojure environment that's got more bells and whistles than a repl, but it's not even as correct as a repl
18:35	dbasch	amalloy: technically people backed the project, they didn’t pay for the product
18:35	dbasch	many people don’t grasp the concept of kickstarter, which is indeed a problem for expectations
18:37	whodidthis	maybe one day we can have lt repl working on cljs again
18:37	arrdem	honestly the reason I was interested in LT in the first place was the instarepl and code blocks. for now code blocks have been dropped and were actually a suggested GSoC project (dunno if it got picked up) but I think that some of the "rethinking the editor" stuff that Chris talked about is interesting if and only if editors and IDEs haven't changed a ton in a long time.
18:38	hipsterslapfight	never try LT with node.js if you think it has clojure problems :v
18:38	amalloy	dbasch: i mean, kickstarter is supposed to be for things that you can actually produce and just need money for. not things that you kinda hope that if you had some money you could maybe do. for example, the TOS says: Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.
18:39	amalloy	can he really give you a license to the finished product "light table", if you think a 1.0 should be able to correctly evaluate clojure code, and he does not have a product that can do that? all he can give you is access to a beta that doesn't really work
18:39	beepbeep_	well, thanks for the help guys! gn
18:39	dbasch	amalloy: I agree, and if enough people were unhappy he should issue some refunds
18:39	dbasch	but clearly it must be good enough for many people who use it and don’t complain
18:40	whodidthis	inline eval and watches
18:40	arrdem	that or nobody has actually switched to using it as a primary editor due to frustrations which they haven't bothered to voice in the presence of compelling alternatives like Emacs or Sublime.
18:41	dbasch	if I had backed it and I wasn’t happy, I’d say it
18:41	arrdem	which in fairness I doubt given that the mailing list is still active.
18:42	dbasch	but I normally don’t expect much out of kickstarter stuff, I was just happy to receive my parallela over a year behind schedule
18:43	tbaldridge	personally I think LT suffers from feature creep. Originally it was just going to be an interactive extensible editor. These days it's a node.js/webkit monstrosity that is trying to "fix programming"
18:44	arrdem	2nd system maybe?
18:44	technomancy	I'm sympathetic to not wanting to build just an editor; much better to make an environment with everything you'd need to build an editor
18:44	amalloy	dbasch: sure, i haven't backed anything on kickstarter myself. but the thing is, you're entitled to expect something, because the TOS says they agree to give you what you paid for. it is not a charity, it is a contract
18:44	technomancy	that said I have no idea what they're actually doing
18:45	p_l	tbaldridge: what's worse is how it reacts to certain keys, showing how much it is an embedded build of chrome...
18:45	technomancy	and browsers are generally huge piles of hacks upon hacks
18:45	hipsterslapfight	p_l: yeah even atom does a better job of that
18:45	hipsterslapfight	and with the new react editor atom might become useful
18:46	p_l	at least they fixed some annoying dependency problem in LT, I didn't have to patch DLLs last time I tried it
18:46	tbaldridge	when I saw this talk I thought "oh wow, this project is really out in the weeds now..." (http://www.infoq.com/presentations/reimagining-software)
18:47	tbaldridge	This sort of thing (visual programming) has been tried who knows how many times before and it always ends up in the same place....the weeds
18:48	technomancy	it works well for teaching kids =)
18:48	tbaldridge	sure, but it's practically useless for "real" programming :-)
18:50	{blake}	VAST and Parts worked pretty well.
19:09	whilo	dnolen_: i think https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/src/cljs/cljs/reader.cljs#L547 and https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/src/cljs/cljs/reader.cljs#L552 should be declared ^:dynamic (?)
19:10	whilo	i am rebinding them, which works, but i currently get warnings
19:12	amalloy	i don't think you should be rebinding them at all, whilo. there's https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/src/cljs/cljs/reader.cljs#L567-L579 if you want to add new reader tags
19:13	whilo	amalloy: i know, but i need a "clean" reader which reads tagged literals as normal clojure datastructures, so i can hash them with sha-1 in a code-agnostic manner
19:13	whilo	imo it should work like clojure.edn or if i remember correctly tools.reader, which allows to pass in functions for tags and default-case
19:14	whilo	these two vars are shared mutable state over the whole runtime
19:16	whilo	i select-keys the default-tags to rebind, which could still break if somebody would register a new tagged reader for #inst for instance: https://github.com/ghubber/hasch/blob/master/src/cljs/hasch/platform.cljs#L16
19:17	whilo	it is a bit hacky
19:18	whilo	this is the corresponding clojure.edn reader: https://github.com/ghubber/hasch/blob/master/src/clj/hasch/platform.clj#L12
19:19	amalloy	you want to run md5 against clojure source code literals? what's your plan for things with no guaranteed ordering, like maps?
19:19	whilo	i padd them, so the hash is the same for commutative datastructures like maps and sets
19:19	whilo	with xor
19:20	whilo	https://github.com/ghubber/hasch/blob/master/src/cljx/hasch/benc.cljx#L33
19:23	nbeloglazov	arohner, when playing with quil you usually don't reload whole namespace, but rather reload only specific changed functions. For example you modified 'draw' function and you reload only it. This way new window will not be created on each reload
19:24	whilo	amalloy: not sure about it, i basically need it for cross-platform integrity of data, so i had to do this. if this is complicated or wrong, please point out any flaws
19:33	lwm	hi folks, has anyone used core.typed and what do they make of it?
19:34	dbasch	~anyone
19:34	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
19:34	cbp	I've heard it becomes unwieldy for large projects and still needs polish
19:35	dbasch	I’ve seen examples of projects that use it (imo) unnecessarily
19:36	cbp	dbasch: what kind of projects should use core.typed?
19:37	dbasch	cbp: the first thing that comes to my mind are things like crypto / security
19:37	dbasch	but that’s probably just an opinion
19:37	lwm	projects with people who like type annotations?
19:38	cbp	you can type annotate in the comments like arrdem :-D
19:38	technomancy	projects for which the cost of shipping an update is unreasonably high maybe
19:38	dbasch	I was thinking of cases where you want to pay a significant price upfront to avoid runtime errors
19:38	cbp	docstrings*
19:38	dbasch	for things like webapps runtime errors are usually no big deal
19:38	dbasch	but you wouldn’t want a bitcoin client to blow up in the middle of a transaction
19:39	lwm	ah, that makes a lot of sense
19:39	cbp	wouldnt something like quickcheck be a bit better for that?
19:40	hiredman	I want core.typed to be just another thing that I can use to assist in ensuring the correctness of code, like tests, informal reasoning, etc
19:40	hiredman	but it still feels too heavy weight to be one tool among many
19:40	dbasch	I agree with hiredman
19:42	hiredman	I have been fiddling with an implementation of the raft consensus algorithm, and consensus is something you generally really want to work correctly
19:43	hiredman	I was thinking about annoting it with core.typed, but the cost/benefit seems to high, I would benefit much more from generative testing and using a history checker like knossos
19:45	lwm	ooh didn't know about 'generative testing'
19:45	tuft	test.check is great fun
19:45	lwm	do you think projects run away from dynamic languages like clojure when they can't afford run time errors in their applications?
19:46	hiredman	are there any projects like that?
19:47	hiredman	I imagine most projects just go with the skillset they have I guess
19:48	lwm	well, the bitcoin transaction example above
19:49	hiredman	yeah, but did that stop people from doing bitcoin websites in php?
19:49	lwm	ha ... well. a website is one thing
19:50	lwm	I suppose you are right, skill set and problem domain and all that
19:50	dbasch	there’s even a heavily used bitcoin library written in js
19:51	dbasch	and exchanges that were hacked because they used non-transactional databases for transactions
19:51	tuft	i'm more drawn to prismatic's schema than core.typed
19:51	tuft	runtime vs static i know, but similar purpose otherwise
19:54	catern	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2493996/hidden-features-of-clojure
19:54	catern	this persistent queue thing, is there a nice way to create it now?
19:54	catern	nicer*
19:55	hiredman	nope
19:55	hiredman	which is too bad
19:55	hiredman	they are very nice
19:55	catern	is there a reason?
19:56	hiredman	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-976
19:56	technomancy	probably because it's difficult to say "queuefish" with a straight face
19:56	catern	and, say I want a mutable queue, would the best thing be to put PersistentQueue in an atom? or something else?
19:57	catern	(or ref or agent or whatever)
19:57	technomancy	haha; "This needs more time."
19:58	{blake}	Couldn't you just macro it up, if you wanted it?
19:58	catern	man, I don't care about read syntax, I just want to write empty-queue instead of what it currently is
19:58	technomancy	you can't apply patches too quickly or they won't respect you in the morning
19:58	hiredman	catern: depends what you are doing with it, java.util.concurrent has a number of mutable queues
19:58	pjstadig	technomancy: it doesn't need more discussion, or design, just time
19:59	technomancy	pjstadig: like an aged cheese
19:59	pjstadig	technomancy: a fine wine
19:59	catern	hiredman: are there nice clojure interfaces to them?
19:59	catern	nice-looking I mean
19:59	pjstadig	catern: (ThisIsMyClass. some args)
20:00	hiredman	catern: interop is nice
20:00	technomancy	probably there'd be a literal for it if j.u.c. didn't exist
20:00	technomancy	clojurebot: java.util.concurrent?
20:00	clojurebot	java.util.concurrent is "When I find myself in times of trouble / Prof. Doug Lea comes to me / Coding lines of wisdom / j.u.c."
20:00	hiredman	technomancy: nah, they are very different
20:00	pjstadig	haha
20:00	pjstadig	clojurebot: nice
20:01	clojurebot	Excuse me?
20:01	pjstadig	clojurebot: i said nice
20:01	clojurebot	Excuse me?
20:01	technomancy	hiredman: well for better or worse, people would probably use persistent ones when they weren't appropriate if not for juc
20:01	pjstadig	whatev
20:01	technomancy	pjstadig: it's pronounced "botsnack"
20:01	pjstadig	~botsmack
20:01	clojurebot	Owww!
20:03	lwm	haaa clojurebot is winning
20:13	catern	question, what is the CIDER repl autocompleting when I press tab to get java.util.concurrent.Callable? It doesn't autocomplete java.util.concurrent.LinkedBlockingQueue
20:13	catern	-doesn't
20:14	technomancy	it does both for me
20:14	catern	interesting, any idea what the problem might be?
20:15	technomancy	I have an older version of cider
20:15	technomancy	it's not the most stable piece of software
20:29	kenrestivo	nrepl.el 4evar
20:31	pjstadig	technomancy: did you fix imenu in the newer version of cider? it's broken in 0.6.0
20:31	akurilin	I swear to gosh, every 3 I'm bitten in the ass by ring returning an html file as BufferedInputStream only when making an uberjar
20:31	akurilin	this is my life's nemesis
20:32	amalloy	kenrestivo: slime 2010. get on my level
20:32	kenrestivo	haha, it would take me a long time to get on your leve
20:32	technomancy	pjstadig: still on 0.4.0
20:32	p_l	... jesus, what old versions D:
20:32	pjstadig	technomancy: it's fixed in master though and your name's all over it
20:33	technomancy	my name?
20:33	kenrestivo	huh, 0.1.8 nrepl.el here. works great. :-P
20:33	pjstadig	git blame
20:33	technomancy	I haven't touched cider since 2013
20:33	technomancy	except for maybe in an experimental branch
20:37	Bronsa	amalloy: I raise you with a 2009 slime.
20:38	p_l	... is that one old enough to be pre-slime-fancy.el?
20:38	amalloy	nice
20:38	technomancy	I don't think it's possible to go further back
20:38	kenrestivo	i wonder if there'll be a market for celebrity endorsements. "cider! used by technomancy!" (insert picture of phil smiling and holding a package of cider)
20:38	technomancy	oh, nope. swank-clojure started in april of 2008.
20:38	technomancy	wow
20:38	p_l	luddites, all of you :D
20:39	kenrestivo	i'd imagine swank/slime was the first
20:39	pjstadig	inferior-lisp
20:39	technomancy	it predates clojure.core
20:40	amalloy	wait what?
20:40	amalloy	there's some code in clojure going back to 2006, isn't there? was that all in java?
20:40	technomancy	(clojure/create-ns 'swank)
20:40	amalloy	or was clojure around, but too loosely-packed to be put into a namespace
20:40	pjstadig	oooh it was just clojure back then right?
20:40	p_l	"2013-11-17" <--- not recently updated slime...
20:40	amalloy	huh. i had no idea
20:41	Bronsa	amalloy: I remember a boot.clj rather than core.clj
20:41	pjstadig	clojure used to compile namespaces differently before you needed at least two segments
20:41	kenrestivo	i remember rich saying he worked on clojure for 2 years before it was released. i guess that was 2008
20:41	amalloy	that i've heard of, Bronsa. i hadn't heard about the namespace "clojure"
20:43	pjstadig	hey, remember when leiningen used to copy all your dependencies into a 'lib' dir?
20:46	work_op	anybody familiar with play-clj? getting an error about no class def for openal even though its installed
20:54	pjstadig	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/commit/3d1daab442b6f6067d5f2fff066bdcee60f9379a
21:08	technomancy	pjstadig: man those were the days
21:24	fifosine	To anyone who is familiar with hiccup: what's going on at l16, "[:p user]" in http://pastebin.com/c06hKZP8? I can't figure out what the purpose of this vector is.
21:25	cbp`	fifosine: a <p> html tag with whatever user is inside
21:26	fifosine	cbp`: I don't see the p tag in the resulting html page, though. If I change :p to :h1 or if I change user to any string, I see no change in the source.
21:26	fifosine	So I don't understand what it does
21:27	cbp`	It's sorrounded by an if-let, if (session/get :user) is nil or false it will not return that vector
21:28	cbp`	it will return (link-to ..)
21:28	fifosine	cbp`: Ah! Okay, missed that :p Should I assume that the result of the if-let is conj'd onto content?
21:29	cbp`	the result of the if-let is passed as a first argument to "base"
21:29	fifosine	and then content is the second?
21:29	cbp`	yes
21:29	fifosine	But function base only takes one argument
21:29	cbp`	no, it takes any number of arguments , that's what the & means
21:30	fifosine	Oh! I thought that meant optional parameter
21:30	fifosine	& means a list of args?
21:30	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: means in this context
21:30	cbp`	it takes any number of arguments and groups them in a seq called content
21:30	fifosine	got it
21:30	fifosine	thanks cbp`
21:30	cbp`	np
21:35	Lajjla	cbp`, what is your opinion on the objective-who?
21:57	jumblemuddle	&(+ 1 1)
21:57	lazybot	⇒ 2
21:57	jumblemuddle	Wow, I'm impressed.
22:06	eraserhd	,(clojure.string/split "\n" #"\n")
22:06	clojurebot	[]
22:06	eraserhd	^^ sigh
22:08	cbp`	eraserhd: ?
23:00	jumblemuddle	&(println "Hello, World")
23:00	lazybot	⇒ Hello, World nil