#clojure – 2014-05-22

2014-05-22

00:22	dbasch	technomancy: one reason to have web documentation is that you cannot use doc to search
00:22	technomancy	dbasch: you can use apropos though
00:23	dbasch	technomancy: if you know that if exists
00:24	dbasch	and it won’t help you with things like “concatenate strings in clojure"
00:24	technomancy	right; you have IRC for that =D
00:25	technomancy	anyway, you won't find that from autogenerated HTML docs
00:25	dbasch	but then we have to help beginners instead of talking about random stuff :)
00:25	dbasch	you might if enough people use those terms to link to them
00:26	jweaver	sometimes talking about random stuff is helping beginners ;-).
00:44	jweaver	So, is everything we type in Clojure a data literal? The code "is" the data? I'm doing a lot of reading on Clojure (learning), and I've read this a number of times. I'm not sure I grok it though
00:45	arrdem	jweaver: welcome to homoiconic languages.
00:46	amalloy	jweaver: yes. for example, (+ 1 2) is a list, containing a symbol and two numbers
00:46	jweaver	What is written, is the actual AST... is that a fair statement?
00:46	amalloy	when the compiler evaluates that, you get 3; but before evaluation, it's a list
00:46	jweaver	Ahh
00:47	amalloy	jweaver: eh. not really, re ASTs
00:47	jweaver	Wow
00:48	jweaver	Well, since it's data, it's like the AST itself right? I mean, it's not trasnformed or anything
00:50	amalloy	it's a tree, but it's not really the AST. there are lots of other things in an AST, since those are generally produced by the compiler as an intermediate structure
00:51	jweaver	Ok
00:53	jweaver	After years of Java OO/Imperative, I'm opening up my mind as much as possible =). It seems simple, very simple. I'll definitely be putting some night time hours into study and practice.
00:54	jweaver	("it" being clojure)
00:54	tolstoy	jweaver: A colleague is going through a similar thing.
00:54	tolstoy	jweaver: Recently, he decided to fire up .Net to make a simple web app and found himself saying, "Man, this is a lot of typing."
00:55	jweaver	tolstoy: Any words of advice?
00:55	jweaver	haha =). Nice.
00:56	tolstoy	Advice? Hm. Start simple? Write lots of tiny apps that do the one "part" you're interested in, then start putting them together later?
00:57	dbasch	to be fair, web apps are almost always a lot of typing
00:58	quizdr	you can save a ton of typing in Clojure by learning all the functions in clojure.core. if you don't know about some of them, you can accidentally end up writing your own to do the same thing.
00:58	tolstoy	Yep. But he told us the story illustrating that despite himself, he kinda crossed a line.
00:58	dbasch	one day we may not have to use a tree to represent a rectangular screen anymore, that might save some typing
00:59	tolstoy	quizdr: I do that all the time. Just the other day I realized that my "loop/recur" thing was solved with "every?". ;)
01:00	jweaver	quizdr: I'll keep that in mind, the clojure docs seem like a good guide (referencing these docs: http://clojure.github.io/clojure/clojure.core-api.html)
01:00	jweaver	Of course, I end up googling everything anyway.
01:01	quizdr	very rarely is loop/recur necessary
01:02	jweaver	Wowah... core.clj is 1 giant file? So I take it breaking these up into separate files has little or no benefit?
01:02	jweaver	(and by giant, I mean only ~7k lines in total file size)
01:02	tolstoy	quizdr: Yeah. I generally only use it to get an idea down if I don't know what I really want. More and more: reduce does it all.
01:03	quizdr	i watched an interesting c++ talk by an Adobe engineer yesterday, and even in a language like that he insisted that one should never use raw loop and rely on simple built-in functions instead (of which c++ has quite many now that resemble functional list comprehension)
01:18	Fare	I'm trying to use reflection to access clojure from java
01:19	Fare	and actually, even before then, I'm trying to run some code using clojure
01:34	yedi	expectations test framework seems refreshing
01:49	servo	https://www.refheap.com/85760
01:49	servo	#dark
01:50	arrdem	reasonable, but yes a bit dark
02:01	servo	the paradigm of looking at the world as a set of entities that have an ability to do something is pretty powerful
02:01	servo	i mean both protocols and reducers leverage this
02:02	servo	isn't the definition of a collection an entity that has the ability to be reducible?
02:06	amalloy	servo: that defrecord Human isn't very thread-safe
02:06	TEttinger	amalloy: a noose is an unsafe thread for humans too
02:07	servo	amalloy: can you give me an example of a scenario in which state would cause that record to perform unexpectedly?
02:07	servo	s/state//
02:08	amalloy	pretty much anytime two threads are working with it at once. for example: health is 1, alive is true. two threads both try to hit it for 5. they both discover that it's alive. then they both take away 5 hp, so it's down to -9. then they both see that health is negative so they both toggle alive, and the monster briefly dies before coming back to life
02:08	amalloy	or, i guess it's a human, not a monster
02:09	amalloy	really just imagine two threads progressing through this function in parallel, each executing the same lines at the same time. you don't need any corner cases to mess this one up
02:10	servo	ah
02:10	servo	thank you
02:10	amalloy	good news, though, sorta: it's impossible to keep two separate atoms in sync in a thread-safe way
02:10	amalloy	so your design was not much worse than any other
02:11	servo	so ideally i would use refs with dosync correct?
02:11	amalloy	i'd use one atom, which is a map containing both health and alive. but refs wouldn't be unreasonable
02:12	servo	that is one thing i often ponder; whether to use one big referenceable identity for state or to split it up into many
02:13	mange	servo: Why do you need "alive" to be a separate atom? Can something have positive health and be dead? (Or negative health and be alive?)
02:13	servo	i've seen where people use one symbol and call it "state" and it represents entire state of application, not sure how idiomatic that is
02:14	mange	And when I said "atom" there, let's all just pretend I said "value".
02:14	servo	mange: i wanted to use a predicate function :)
02:15	mange	(comp neg? :health) wasn't any good?
02:16	mange	... With a deref.
02:16	servo	pedantry aside, yes, that would have worked ;)
02:17	mange	Yeah, I'm fairly wrong there on the fine details. Sorry about that.
02:21	noncom	servo: storing all state under one variable is perfectly ok
02:22	noncom	usually one atom
02:23	quizdr	servo that is quite idiomatic; afterall, Om, a widely used Clojure(script) library, just does that: a single atom for the entire app
02:23	servo	cool
02:24	quizdr	i think the question comes down to what is more manageable, both for you as a dev but also for the system. multiple atoms that are related to each other can get messy. a single atom is tight.
02:27	servo	as noted above, i have learned that even two atoms can get messy fairly quickly
02:42	amalloy	even one atom can get messy fairly quickly
03:00	quizdr`	true dat
03:09	owl-v-	if i'm programming clojure app in embedded system, what is effective way of representing trees and traverse it?
03:24	vijaykiran	owl-v-: clojure.walk, perhaps ?
03:25	vijaykiran	owl-v-: there's this - http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/library/j-treevisit/index.html (not sure if it is outdated a bit)
05:14	numberten	why is this a thing
05:15	numberten	,('test 1 "wat")
05:15	clojurebot	"wat"
05:16	numberten	,('symbol :a :b)
05:16	clojurebot	:b
05:16	numberten	,(and :a :b)
05:16	clojurebot	:b
05:17	Glenjamin	,[('test {'test :a} "wat") ('test {'not-test :a} "wat")]
05:17	clojurebot	[:a "wat"]
05:17	vijaykiran	,(doc and)
05:17	clojurebot	"([] [x] [x & next]); Evaluates exprs one at a time, from left to right. If a form returns logical false (nil or false), and returns that value and doesn't evaluate any of the other expressions, otherwise it returns the value of the last expr. (and) returns true."
05:17	vijaykiran	,(false? :a)
05:17	clojurebot	false
05:18	Glenjamin	symbol's IFn is basically (get)
05:18	Glenjamin	,(doc get)
05:18	clojurebot	"([map key] [map key not-found]); Returns the value mapped to key, not-found or nil if key not present."
05:18	numberten	don't understand
05:21	vijaykiran	numberten: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Symbol.java#L127
05:22	vijaykiran	('blah 1 3) is invoking symbol as the function get
05:22	numberten	i see
05:22	numberten	,(get :a :b)
05:22	clojurebot	nil
05:22	numberten	,(get 'wat :a :b)
05:22	clojurebot	:b
05:22	vijaykiran	yup
05:22	numberten	that's really strange
05:23	Glenjamin	it allows you to try and get a value from a map, and not blow up when you don't get a map
05:23	numberten	i assume that's so you can use (symbol coll)
05:23	numberten	as shorthand for get
05:23	Glenjamin	yes
05:24	Glenjamin	,({'a :b} 'a)
05:24	clojurebot	:b
05:24	Glenjamin	,('a {'a :b})
05:24	clojurebot	:b
05:24	Glenjamin	,(nil 'a)
05:24	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Can't call nil, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
05:24	Glenjamin	,('a nil)
05:24	clojurebot	nil
05:24	numberten	makes sense
05:25	Glenjamin	using the symbol/keyword's IFn is "safer" than calling the map, and shorter than (get)
05:25	numberten	i keep forgetting that dispatch is only a matter of the type of the first argument
05:25	numberten	so ,('a 1 2) was tripping me out
06:13	Vinzent	reiddraper, hi, could you please take a look at this slightly modified version of `for-all` which I find handy to use? If it looks ok to you, I can send you a patch
06:13	Vinzent	https://www.refheap.com/85769
06:23	clgv	Vinzent: I think that would be only usefull if the let binding can be used in the next for-all binding
06:24	clgv	Vinzent: but for that it is probably better to have a different macro based on for-all
06:28	peterdon	(def x 1 y 2)
06:28	peterdon	sorry
06:29	Vinzent	clgv, yeah it would be cool, although I'm not quite sure how to implement that. Anyway, the version I pasted is just a way to get rid of repetitive (and ...) blocks, since they are required almost in every spec anyway
06:35	clgv	Vinzent: implicit `and`? I doubt that this is a good idea
06:37	clgv	Vinzent: in clojure a list of forms in a macro indicates a `do` somewhere in the macro which indicates either side effects or a programming error
06:39	Vinzent	clgv, I wouldn't agree it's a general rule. It's only valid for defn-like macros.
06:40	Vinzent	Though, it's arguable whether for-all is (and should be) such one.
06:41	clgv	Vinzent: I don't know of any exception concerning control flow macros.
06:43	clgv	when you test your implementation the properties you test should be explicitly visible
06:46	wunki	is it possible to get the `var` of a function?
06:48	clgv	wunki: from a function instance?
06:48	wunki	clgv: I want to get the var in middleware, so it's a handler function
06:48	clgv	wunki: for functions created via `defn` you can reconstruct the complete symbol and resolve it
06:49	wunki	clgv: with ns-resolve?
06:49	clgv	wunki: reconstructi it from the class name Iwanted to say ^^
06:49	Vinzent	clgv, in my mind, for-all is closer to defroutes-like macros than to control flow ones. You pass a list of properties, not just an arbitrary body.
06:50	clgv	Vinzent: well that is not how it is implemented and documented so I doubt that. for a test it is certainly defining the control flow similarly to a doseq
06:53	Vinzent	clgv, sure, I'm talking about the version I pasted, not the one which is currently there. They are not backwards-compatible in this regard
06:54	clgv	Vinzent: I dont think it is useful to have the implicit `and` since this will only lead to accidental errors.
06:55	clgv	the point of the test is to convince you or your stakeholders that your implementation works as specified. so I'd try to minimize errors in the test code ;)
06:56	Vinzent	clgv, implicit and is an implementation detail; you just pass a number of properties to be checked using the provided generators. Think of it as an equivalent of clojure.test/are or something.
06:57	clgv	yeah well, even there you have to use the `ara`
06:57	clgv	`are`
07:02	Vinzent	clgv, and here you have to use `for-all` :) The only way I see it can lead to accidental errors is breaking backwards compatibility and possibly confusing people used to the old version, which is of course a perfectly valid point.
07:06	clgv	Vinzent: I doubt that for-all will be changed like that. maybe a helper macro is included if you manage to convince anyone that it is actually usefull
07:10	Vinzent	clgv, well, yeah, that's why I just wanted reiddraper to take a look -- maybe it's not that handy at all for other people as it is for me.
07:13	quizdr`	why the source for async's >! show basically nothing but an assert? https://github.com/clojure/core.async/blob/65b2d6c81350ba8b4bb3a8b82ad45ba984c0037c/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/async.clj#L118
07:15	mpenet	it's a catch-all for people using it outside of go blocks, I guess in go blocks it gets rewriten
07:15	Vinzent	quizdr`, I guess all the work is done in the go macro
07:15	quizdr`	interesting, so the go block sees the symbol >! and uses that for its logic
07:29	clgv	quizdr`: https://github.com/clojure/core.async/blob/65b2d6c81350ba8b4bb3a8b82ad45ba984c0037c/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/async/impl/ioc_macros.clj#L976
07:52	noncom\|2	can i somehow change the directory where clojure looks for ns files when executing (require) ?
07:53	Vinzent	noncom\|2, :source-paths in your project.clj, if you want this for the whole project
07:53	agarman	or you can use the load function directly
07:54	agarman	,(doc load)
07:54	clojurebot	"([& paths]); Loads Clojure code from resources in classpath. A path is interpreted as classpath-relative if it begins with a slash or relative to the root directory for the current namespace otherwise."
07:54	agarman	there's also load-file
07:55	opensourcegeek	hi guys - i'm a newbie with clojure, just started hacking some stuff together. how can I get :b from ({:a 1, :b ({:label "boo" :name "foo"})} :b) => this throws ArityException Wrong number of args (0) passed to: PersistentArrayMap. I know it is something to do with parens after :b
07:55	noncom\|2	so, a few corrections: 1) i am not using lein in this current setup :) and 2) the (load) seems like all paths must be relative either to the CP or the current ns path... umm
07:55	noncom\|2	,(doc load-file)
07:55	clojurebot	"([name]); Sequentially read and evaluate the set of forms contained in the file."
07:55	noncom\|2	hmm
07:55	noncom\|2	this looks like the solution
07:56	numberten	,(take 3 (iterate (fn [m] (let [i (rand-int (count m))] (dissoc m i))) {0 :a 1 :b 2 :c}))
07:56	clojurebot	({0 :a, 1 :b, 2 :c} {0 :a, 2 :c} {0 :a, 2 :c})
07:56	numberten	shouldn't the third map have only 1 element in it?
07:57	noncom\|2	,(:b {:a 1, :b ({:label "boo" :name "foo"})})
07:57	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: PersistentArrayMap>
07:57	opensourcegeek	I can fix it with (:b {:a 1, :b '({:label "boo" :name "foo"})})
07:57	Vinzent	opensourcegeek, ({:label "boo" :name "foo"}) is wrong, you want [{:label "boo" :name "foo"}]
07:57	noncom\|2	opensourcegeek: the problem is that the {} in the list is treated like a function
07:57	noncom\|2	you either have to use [] instead of () or '()
07:58	opensourcegeek	, but it is sent by clj-http
07:58	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: but in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
07:58	agarman	opensourcegeek: either what Vinzent said or '() instead of ()
07:59	opensourcegeek	but when I do (http/get "http://x.com/" {:as :json}) then I get the response automatically coerced to something like above
07:59	Vinzent	opensourcegeek, read about clojure evaluation process. When clojure encounters a list, it treats its first element as a function. So (1 2 3) is a perfectly valid list, but you'll get an error if you try to evaluate it. ' suspends evaluation, so '(1 2 3) will return just the list (1 2 3) itself.
08:00	opensourcegeek	(require '[clojure.data.json :as json])
08:01	opensourcegeek	@Vinzent, I totally get that - but if the library sends me data structure which has embedded parens what do i do?
08:02	Vinzent	opensourcegeek, don't copy it from the repl :) or quote it if you do
08:02	agarman	data won't be evaluated unless you tell clojure to evaluate it
08:02	opensourcegeek	ahhh - makes sense sorry
08:02	agarman	opensourcegeek: if you want to copy it into the repl
08:02	llasram	,(clojure.edn/read-string "(:foo :bar :baz)")
08:02	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.edn>
08:03	agarman	opensourcegeek: quote it with '
08:03	llasram	,(require 'clojure.edn)
08:03	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>
08:03	llasram	hmph
08:03	llasram	,(read-string "(:foo :bar :baz)") ;; don't dot this for untrusted data
08:03	clojurebot	(:foo :bar :baz)
08:03	opensourcegeek	its repl that's printing after evaluating it? - makes sense thanks guys
08:05	amatsu	I'm trying to transform ["a" "b" "c"] into {:a {:b "c"}}. Is there an easy way to do this? I couldn't find a way to express this with loop+recur.
08:06	llasram	amatsu: It's not entirely clear what you're trying to achieve from that example. More details?
08:06	wunki	anyone familiar with fnhouse?
08:06	Vinzent	amatsu, assoc-in + butlast is the first which comes to mind
08:06	CookedGr1phon	if that's your exact example, then (defn f [[a b c]] {(keyword a) {(keyword b) c}})
08:07	CookedGr1phon	more info if you want something more general
08:09	Vinzent	amatsu, although, if the collection is always a vector, it's much better to use peek and pop
08:11	noncom\|2	ok so about 15 minutes ago we found that (load) and (load-file) functions would allow me much customization in choosing where from the load the files. but still, what about (require) ? can i change its behavior?
08:11	noncom\|2	the reason is that i do not want to modify the existing code, which already has normal (ns) declarations and replace it with (load) or (load-file) thingie
08:12	agarman	noncom\|2: have you read (doc require)?
08:12	noncom\|2	,(doc require)
08:13	clojurebot	"([& args]); Loads libs, skipping any that are already loaded. Each argument is either a libspec that identifies a lib, a prefix list that identifies multiple libs whose names share a common prefix, or a flag that modifies how all the identified libs are loaded. Use :require in the ns macro in preference to calling this directly. Libs A 'lib' is a named set of resources in classpath whose contents...
08:13	agarman	noncom\|2: it's too long for irc
08:13	agarman	noncom\|2: run it in your own repl
08:13	noncom\|2	ok
08:13	Vinzent	noncom\|2, you probably should use some classpath managing tool. Maybe clojure.java.classpath will do, but I can't help you much further
08:14	llasram	noncom\|2: What's your ultimate goal?
08:16	noncom\|2	i have some clojure code in its normal form, but I have to load and run it all from a java app, what means that I use Compiler.load() things and such. leiningen is also not an option for the reason
08:16	noncom\|2	while Compiler.load() loads file a namespace, problems begin when that namespace requires some other ones
08:17	noncom\|2	i thought maybe there are some variables in RT that can be altered to help Clojure locate the namespaces
08:17	llasram	noncom\|2: Ok. What actually want to do is `require` things from the class path, just like normal
08:17	noncom\|2	llasram: yes, but how do I change the classpath so that require will find the files on the classpath?
08:18	noncom\|2	i was looking for that and did not find anything..
08:18	llasram	Run the JVM with the correct `-cp` option or `CLASSPATH` environment variable?
08:19	llasram	And then you load the Clojure code by calling `require` via the Java Clojure API: https://github.com/damballa/parkour/blob/master/src/java/parkour/hadoop/Mappers.java#L15
08:19	noncom\|2	llasram: not really an option... because 1) it is Dalvik, not a regular JVM 2) the location(s) is(are) not known at the launch time :)
08:19	llasram	There a more formal interface in Clojure 1.6, if you're using only 1.6+
08:21	llasram	noncom\|2: Ah. You might want to mention that first next time :-p
08:21	noncom\|2	llasram: yeah, I was thinking along similar lines as you point out in the example, but requiring the nss from Java also won't work because it presumes that I know what are the namespaces. I only know the "entry point" namespace which then in turn uses (require)
08:21	noncom\|2	actually it uses (ns name-of-it (:require ...) ) just like usual
08:22	CookedGr1phon	noncom\|2: so are your generating dex at runtime and then want to require it?
08:22	llasram	I'm about 90% certain that you need to AOT compile the project then ->DEX the generated JVM byte code
08:22	noncom\|2	yes, looks like it. at least Compiler.load() creates a dex
08:22	llasram	And all attempts at runtime loading of Clojure source will utterly fail
08:22	CookedGr1phon	llasram: not so
08:22	noncom\|2	no-no, all works ok
08:23	llasram	Interesting
08:23	llasram	How?
08:23	noncom\|2	i successfully load a single file
08:23	CookedGr1phon	there's a dexer built in to the clojure android clojure fork
08:23	noncom\|2	the only problem that i can't make (require) look for files where i want
08:23	llasram	Ah
08:23	llasram	Interesting
08:23	llasram	OOC which project is that in?
08:23	noncom\|2	clojure-android
08:23	noncom\|2	by sattvik
08:23	CookedGr1phon	noncom\|2: have you looked at where the repl puts its generated dex?
08:24	llasram	Oh, there's a Clojure fork which includes the DEX support
08:24	llasram	Interesting
08:24	llasram	Apparently I'm finding things very interesting this morning :-)
08:24	noncom\|2	the repl puts the generated dex files where i tell it to put them :) there is a compile-path var which i have to set manually in order for Compiler.load() to work at all. i could also use Neko, but for now i am minimal
08:25	noncom\|2	but compile-path has nothing to do with (require) or classpath
08:26	noncom\|2	all these things should be easily configurable, i just cant find how.. spent some time digging the sources but don't have an answer yet
08:26	noncom\|2	llasram: good morning :)
08:27	CookedGr1phon	noncom\|2: I take it you've looked at the neko.compilation namespace for clues already?
08:28	CookedGr1phon	isn't that all you need to be able to run require statements?
08:29	noncom\|2	CookedGr1phon: yes I have looked there. I did not use it, but visually i can tell it does not have the solution. It only sets compile-path - that's already what I am doing by myself
08:30	CookedGr1phon	and the system property clojure.compile.path
08:30	noncom\|2	i believe that altering the (require) behaviour is not an android-specific thing, it is general for Clojure
08:31	noncom\|2	CookedGr1phon: hmmmmm I might have missed that one
08:44	noncom\|2	CookedGr1phon: so, tried the clojure.compile.path and no, it won't work, the error message says "Could not locate blablabla on classpath:" - with nothing following the colon
08:44	noncom\|2	or it is just the exception colon, nvm
08:44	noncom\|2	but anyway
08:44	noncom\|2	"not found on classpath"
08:48	noncom\|2	CookedGr1phon: so I guess I will have to recursively scan the dir and (load-file) all the files in it first... can't think of another solution.. .except for trying to make a patch for clojrue-android, but diverging from the main here is not a good idea, I suppose...
09:32	sojacques	Hello everyone!
09:33	sojacques	I have a question regarding sessions (for web development)
09:33	sojacques	What is the suggested library to deal with those
09:33	mdrogalis	sojacques: Fire away.
09:33	sojacques	? :)
09:33	sojacques	Most resources I found mention sandbar, but it has not been updated for more than a couple years
09:34	sojacques	and I have a bit of trouble while dealing with Ring sessions (I use Compojure)
09:34	mdrogalis	sojacques: Yeah, Sandbar is ancient. I think Ring itself has some support for sessions, or you can try Luminous or Pedestal.
09:34	mdrogalis	sojacques: Ah, got'cha.
09:34	sojacques	mdrogalis: Thank you, I'll have a look!
09:34	mdrogalis	What seems to be the trouble?
09:35	sojacques	Let me write a little gist to show you
09:35	mdrogalis	Sure.
09:39	sojacques	mdrogalis: better, just found this http://narhinen.net/2013/09/25/Sessions-with-compojure.html
09:40	sojacques	What I have a trouble to grasp is: Is it possible to do this without using "response" ?
09:40	mdrogalis	I seriously hate defroutes. A lot.
09:41	sojacques	I'm totally open to any alternative!
09:42	mdrogalis	I don't do a lot of web development. Luminous did seem pretty okay last I looked though.
09:42	sojacques	so far, I've been using defroutes because I thought this was the idiomatic way of having composable routes
09:42	sojacques	Will be checking into this!
09:43	mdrogalis	Ah, yeah. I mean I don't really see anyone doing it another way, but it's this nasty macro def'ed smack in the middle of the code. That could easily be a data construct.
09:45	sojacques	I'm quite new to web development in Clojure, been doing server management tools & data analysis / stats so far
09:45	sojacques	so I'm a bit lost here and there
09:46	mdrogalis	sojacques: Understood - sorry, I'm just ranting a bit. You have good tools, you'll pick it all up pretty quickly.
09:46	sojacques	I'm reading the doc of Luminus, looks like it will totally do the job
09:46	sojacques	Thanks!
09:47	justin_smith	also, using sessions with ring is very easy - it pretty much comes down to using the session middleware, and then putting / getting session data under the :session key in the request and response
09:49	justin_smith	in fact I will commonly construct my response object as a series of transformations of the request
09:50	mdrogalis	No prob bob.
10:03	aelse	, (use '[clojure.java.shell :only [sh]]) (sh "free") (sh "top" "-bn1")
10:03	clojurebot	nil
10:03	aelse	, (use '[clojure.java.shell :only [sh]]) (sh "free") (sh "top" "-bn1")
10:03	clojurebot	nil
10:03	pentester_	i want to break you
10:03	pentester_	echo hi
10:03	lazybot	hi
10:04	pentester_	nil
10:04	pentester_	aelse: what r u trying to do ?
10:04	pentester_	what language is that
10:04	aelse	clojure
10:05	pentester_	how i can write a hello world in clojure?
10:05	teslanick	(prn "hello world")
10:05	teslanick	,(prn "hello world")
10:05	clojurebot	"hello world"\n
10:06	pentester_	it sucks ..?
10:06	teslanick	What?
10:06	clojurebot	What is sampling a random integers betwen 2, 12 s..t. P(X = i) = (7-\|i-7\|)/36
10:06	pentester_	helpme
10:06	pentester_	help
10:06	pentester_	!clojure
10:06	pentester_	clojure
10:06	aelse	, help
10:06	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: help in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
10:06	pentester_	, ?
10:06	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: ? in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
10:07	teslanick	What do you need help with?
10:07	pentester_	teslanick: lol
10:07	pentester_	trying to learn clojure
10:07	clgv	teslanick: better use println
10:07	aelse	, (. (Runtime/getRuntime) exec "ls")
10:07	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.SecurityException: Reference To Runtime is not allowed, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
10:07	clgv	pentester_: get one of the books then ;)
10:07	pentester_	, ('kill me')
10:07	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: me' in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
10:07	teslanick	pentester_: stop.
10:07	pentester_	, (scanf "hello world")
10:07	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: scanf in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
10:07	aelse	, (use '[clojure.java.shell :only [sh]])
10:07	clojurebot	nil
10:07	pentester_	teslanick: y u need me to stop?
10:08	aelse	, (println (:out (sh "cowsay" "Printing a command-line output")))
10:08	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>
10:08	teslanick	Because this isn't your own personal repl to stomp on.
10:08	aelse	, (println (:out (sh "cat" "-" :in "Printing input from stdin with funny chars like ' \" $@ & ")))
10:08	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>
10:08	aelse	, (sh "pwd" :dir "/home/ics/icsdev")
10:08	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>
10:08	pentester_	, (println (ls))
10:08	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: ls in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
10:09	clgv	aelse: you wont get shell access on clojurebot ;)
10:09	pentester_	, (sh "ls")
10:09	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>
10:09	pentester_	, (sh "echo *")
10:09	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>
10:09	pentester_	, (sh "find /")
10:09	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>
10:09	pentester_	why it keep deny me?
10:09	pentester_	, (sh "date")
10:09	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>
10:09	teslanick	Because clojurebot/lazybot are both sandboxed.
10:09	clgv	because there is a sandbox which blocks the underlying functionality of `sh`
10:09	aelse	, (sh "date;echo hi")
10:10	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>
10:10	aelse	okay lets think outside the box
10:10	aelse	zsh
10:10	pentester_	or csh?
10:10	clgv	,(println (java.uti.Date.))
10:10	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: java.uti.Date, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
10:10	pentester_	, (csh "ls")
10:10	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: csh in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
10:10	clgv	,(println (java.util.Date.))
10:10	clojurebot	#inst "2014-05-22T14:05:00.215-00:00"\n
10:10	CookedGr1phon	aelse: pentester_ go try to break this instead and stop spamming our channel http://clojurescript.net/
10:10	CookedGr1phon	or at least do it in a private message, you won't get through to anything useful
10:11	aelse	CookedGr1phon, it has been done
10:11	pentester_	i want to play here ..
10:12	pentester_	how to execute command in java?
10:12	pentester_	rather than using sh ..
10:13	CookedGr1phon	try typing /quit to exit out into a shell and then you can enter destructive commands to your heart's content
10:13	clgv	pentester_: you didn't learn anything from your attempts before?
10:13	pentester_	clgv: just little
10:13	aelse	pentester_, http://nelsonmorris.net/2012/09/06/breaking-lazybot-out-of-clojail.html
10:14	pentester_	aelse: thanks ..
10:14	sojacques	justin_smith: Sorry, just saw your reply about sessions
10:14	sojacques	justin_smith: -> in fact I will commonly construct my response object as a series of transformations of the request -> Isn't the usually a String?
10:14	pentester_	the language is not promising , and java are breakable by default ..
10:14	aelse	, (:out (clojure.java.shell/sh "whoami"))
10:14	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.java.shell, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
10:15	aelse	, (clojail.jvm/jvm-sandbox (fn [] (:out (clojure.java.shell/sh "whoami"))) nil)
10:15	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojail.jvm>
10:15	sojacques	justin_smith: I started from this type of examples: https://github.com/weavejester/compojure
10:19	pentester_	, (:out (clojure.java.lang.Runtime.exec "whoami"))
10:19	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.java.lang.Runtime.exec, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
10:20	pentester_	can someone explain me the return response from clojurebot?
10:20	pentester_	(. (Runtime/getRuntime) exec "your-command-line-here")
10:20	pentester_	, (. (Runtime/getRuntime) exec "your-command-line-here")
10:20	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.SecurityException: Reference To Runtime is not allowed, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
10:21	clgv	pentester_: just stop it. there is a sandbox that prevents you from accessing the shell or files or start new processes
10:21	clgv	pentester_: start your own repl locally and try there
10:21	pentester_	clgv: stop it? isn't this a challenge which require us to break it?
10:22	clgv	pentester_: you can do that by privately talking to clojurebot
10:22	pentester_	kk
10:27	quizdr`	anyone know a good list of all the various interface one could use with reify to have a type extended?
10:28	quizdr`	Like IFn etc
10:29	clgv	quizdr`: the clojure/lang/ directory on github? ;)
10:30	clgv	quizdr`: without a specific goal you won't get better answers
10:31	quizdr`	clgv i'm just trying to understand what the basic Java terms would be since I guess you must use them when workign with reify, and I'm curious how it all works
10:32	clgv	quizdr`: can't follow you...
10:33	clgv	quizdr`: if you have a specific interop scenario you just use the needed interface with `reify`
10:33	quizdr`	i was going through a very basic Om tutorial and right away it was using reify so I figured I better learn what's going on there. IFn, etc are Java terms that don't really have meaning for me. So I was looking for a list of other similar terms so I could look up all the various kinds of reify I am likely to encounter
10:34	clgv	Om is a ClojureScript library, so you shouldnt be forced to learn java ;)
10:34	clgv	quizdr`: clojure.lang.IFn is a Clojure(Script) implementation detail
10:35	quizdr`	sure, but it is also used a lot with reify, so it's one of those implementation details I should know about
10:35	llasram	clgv: I wouldn't say that. As of Clojure 1.6 it's part of the official JVM public API
10:35	clgv	llasram: but from his point of view it remains some implementation detail ;)
10:36	clgv	quizdr`: I dont think a list of all java interfaces would help you at all for learning CLJS and Om ;)
10:37	quizdr`	well a lot of the reify examples are Java not JS so it would help me understand those tutorials, which would help me understand reify
10:38	llasram	All reify does is return an instance of an anoymous type which implements the specified interfaces/protocols
10:38	clgv	quizdr`: but to understand reify you do not need a list of available interfaces ;)
10:38	arrdem	lol @ pentester_
10:39	quizdr`	is reify essentially doing the same thing as extend-type, except that the type is anonymous? that is, it's like a single instance of a type that you would not likely re-use?
10:41	llasram	quizdr`: s,extend-type,deftype, and s,like re-use,need to refer to by type name, But otherwise yes
10:42	clgv	llasram: lol you need that search-replace feature of lazybot which seems to be turned off ;)
10:42	llasram	Each instance of `reify` in your code produces a distinct anonymous type at compile-time. Each invocation of the compiled expression produces one instance of that type
10:43	quizdr`	ok, looking at more examples now
10:43	llasram	clgv: Eh. I'm not sure a bot repeating w/ replacement would really be that helpful
10:44	clgv	llasram: well he did this some time ago.
10:45	pkothbauer	Can anyone help with a simple core.logic noob question? Check this gist: https://gist.github.com/pkothbauer/b77dead2a024055c4dcf
10:50	quizdr`	has anyone used Datomic with Heroku?
11:07	justin_smith	quizdr`: I'll bet technomancy will have some input on that
11:39	CookedGr1phon	Is there such a thing as a first in-last out buffer in core.async?
11:40	justin_smith	CookedGr1phon: that's the same as last in first out right?
11:40	CookedGr1phon	yeah
11:43	CookedGr1phon	so is tehre a last in first out channel buffer?
11:44	justin_smith	I don't find one, but I think you could make something that behaves that way by pairing up an in channel and an out channel with a vector that you push and pop on respectively based on the channel activity
11:45	justin_smith	(with special case for empty of course...)
11:50	CookedGr1phon	that could work, thanks
11:51	clgv	a dropping stack channel sounds like an exotic use case
11:53	pbostrom	I have a seq of no arg fns, I want to call each fn in the seq, is there an alternative to (map #(%) (fn1 fn2 fn3)), i.e. is there an actual named function that does #(%)
11:54	llasram	pbostrom: nope
11:54	clgv	pbostrom: no, that is as short as you can get
11:54	clojurebot	Roger.
11:54	llasram	clojurebot: no, that?
11:54	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
11:54	llasram	clojurebot: that?
11:54	clojurebot	that is weird
11:54	clgv	see clojurebot agrees ;)
11:55	llasram	clojurebot: that?
11:55	clojurebot	that is weird
11:55	CookedGr1phon	pbostrom: have you looked at juxt
11:55	clgv	and what about lazybot???
11:55	lazybot	clgv: Yes, 100% for sure.
11:55	CookedGr1phon	pbostrom: fairly sure you could just do ((juxt fn1 fn2 fn3))
11:55	CookedGr1phon	or ((apply juxt [fn1 fn2 fn3]))
11:56	clgv	not much shorter though ;)
11:56	llasram	I think mapping with #(%) is clearer
11:56	clgv	and not lazy if that was the intention
12:10	rasmusto	(inc applyjuxt)
12:10	lazybot	⇒ 1
12:19	pbostrom	clgv, CookedGr1phon, llasram : thanks, wasn't sure if there was an actual 'call' function
12:21	justin_smith	,((apply juxt [+ *]))
12:21	clojurebot	[0 1]
12:23	clgv	,(map (memfn invoke) [+ *])
12:23	clojurebot	(0 1)
12:24	clgv	not very idiomatic though
12:25	gfredericks	,(map deliver [+ *])
12:25	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core/deliver>
12:26	clgv	,(#(% %) identity)
12:26	clojurebot	#<core$identity clojure.core$identity@1555d95>
12:29	clgv	why does ('a 1) work anyway? I though only keywrds are supposed to look up themselves in maps
12:31	gfredericks	because symbols are also supposed to
12:35	clgv	gfredericks: what for?
12:35	clgv	same reason as for keywords? because they are usually not mention when the keyword map access rule is stated
12:37	clgv	several times already I called a symbol with one argument instead the corresponding function and did not notice immediately - not before debugging (functions are specified in the configuration as symbols)
12:38	lxol	list
12:40	gfredericks	clgv: I assume the same reason, just with a lot less expected use; but I could imagine it being useful for dealing with forms as data a lot
12:41	clgv	gfredericks: well currently I am aware to check if I forgot to resolve the symbol to the function if I get nil from the evaluation.
12:44	gfredericks	clgv: I didn't quite understand that
12:44	clgv	gfredericks: ##('a :anything)
12:44	lazybot	⇒ nil
12:44	clgv	,('inc :anything)
12:44	clojurebot	nil
12:45	gfredericks	sure; I just couldn't tell if that was a question or an objection or something
12:46	clgv	gfredericks: the realization that I forgot to resolve the function again and did not get an immediate error annoyed me ;)
12:47	clgv	I had to track down the resulting NPE ...
12:47	gfredericks	ah right
12:51	gfredericks	hey here's a fun nrepl middleware
12:52	gfredericks	provide an erlc-style alternative to 1 2 *3 where evals get absolute numbers
12:52	gfredericks	so you can reference arbitrarily old stuff
12:52	arrdem	oh nice!
12:52	arrdem	gfredericks: link?
12:52	gfredericks	it's in my head
12:53	gfredericks	"here's" == "here's an idea I just thought of"
12:53	arrdem	wolfram notebook style :P
12:53	arrdem	I like
12:53	arrdem	dbasch: does your tipping site have a way to put bounties on a project?
12:53	gfredericks	you could also provide some sort of GC mechanism, if you could detect uses
12:54	gfredericks	dammit Var is a final class
12:55	gfredericks	I wonder what would happen if you interned something other than a var in a namespace
12:55	l1x	https://twitter.com/ML_Hipster/status/438418306769244160
12:59	clgv	,(intern ns 'foo 42)
12:59	clojurebot	#'sandbox/foo
12:59	clgv	,foo
12:59	clojurebot	42
13:00	clgv	,(-> ns ns-interns 'foo type)
13:00	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentList
13:00	clgv	,(-> ns ns-interns (get 'foo) type)
13:00	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Var
13:00	clgv	gfredericks: ^^
13:07	gfredericks	,(.mappings ns)
13:07	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: mappings for class clojure.lang.Namespace>
13:09	gfredericks	I bet mucking with the mappings map of a namespace could let you do some pretty ninja stuff
13:09	gfredericks	lazy vars for one
13:12	gfredericks	,(-> ns class .getDeclaredFields (->> (filter (comp #{"mappings"} (memfn getName))) first) (.get ns))
13:13	clojurebot	#<AtomicReference {primitives-classnames #'clojure.core/primitives-classnames, +' #'clojure.core/+', Enum java.lang.Enum, decimal? #'clojure.core/decimal?, restart-agent #'clojure.core/restart-agent, ...}>
13:13	gfredericks	,(-> ns class .getDeclaredFields (->> (filter (comp #{"mappings"} (memfn getName))) first) (.get ns) deref)
13:13	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.util.concurrent.atomic.AtomicReference cannot be cast to java.util.concurrent.Future>
13:31	adilaaw	free valide cc plz
13:43	clgv	,(-> ns class .getDeclaredFields (->> (filter (comp #{"mappings"} (memfn getName))) first) (.get ns) .get)
13:43	clojurebot	{primitives-classnames #'clojure.core/primitives-classnames, +' #'clojure.core/+', Enum java.lang.Enum, decimal? #'clojure.core/decimal?, restart-agent #'clojure.core/restart-agent, ...}
14:46	arrdem	someone convince me not to just convert this entire AST to a pointer shared transient structure
14:46	rasmusto	don't do it!
14:47	arrdem	rasmusto: that's not convincing tho.
14:47	rasmusto	arrdem: I tried.
14:47	arrdem	the from a usability and a performance standpoint I should totally do this with in place mutability.
14:48	arrdem	no reason to eat an O(N) tree traversal when I could do an O(1) pointer update.
14:48	Bronsa	arrdem: if it makes you feel better internally in t.a.j I sometimes use an atom to avoid walking the AST needlessly
14:49	arrdem	Bronsa: I'm gonna take a break, breath, and then probably build a fully transient AST from your nice output. I'm sorry.
14:49	Bronsa	sounds exciting.
14:49	arrdem	I'll let you know when I shoot my foot off
14:50	splunk	anybody know how to declare a new type in core.typed? Suppose you wanted a `Path` that a subtype of `String`, and not merely an alias for a String
14:50	arrdem	splunk: I don't, but #typed-clojure may
14:50	splunk	arrdem: awesome thanks
14:50	amalloy	you're looking for haskell's newtype in core.typed?
14:51	splunk	amalloy: mmm, I think data Foo = Foo String in Haskell
14:51	splunk	but I don't really actually know Haskell
14:51	splunk	I think that'll create a Foo using a String, but henceforth that Foo != that String, I think?
14:52	amalloy	yes, although i'd use newtype instead of data there, probably
14:52	splunk	I love that I learn more about Haskell walking in here :)
14:52	splunk	thx
14:52	amalloy	it's an interesting idea. i dont know enough about core.typed to tell you whether it's possible; it seems a bit tricky
14:53	llasram	It does seem like it's conceptually possible though -- it'd all just be type-checking time fiction
14:57	arrdem	hyPiRion: I'm probably pushing my luck but so be it
14:58	hyPiRion	arrdem: I just find it funny that people complain about printers when I've tried to fix a printer driver the whole day as the university printer refuses to print my master's pdf.
14:59	technomancy	it took me two days to get my laser at home working
14:59	splunk	I'm super hopeful core.typed will work out, I think it has a lot of potential to alleviate some of the heavy mocking and stubbing that's going on in the dynamic language world
14:59	pkothbauer	Hi! Anyone with familiarity of core.logic are to answer a newbie question? http://stackoverflow.com/q/23811409/3506009
14:59	pkothbauer	care to answer
15:00	hyPiRion	arrdem: and you're not pushing your luck, you have no chance of convincing bitemyapp either way :p
15:00	cbp`	pkothbauer: you can try posting on the mailing list if no one helps you here
15:00	arrdem	hyPiRion: at some point I'm gonna give in to my desire to countertroll
15:01	hyPiRion	technomancy: funny thing is, it works fine at home
15:01	pkothbauer	@cbp okay thanks!
15:12	yedi	i read somewhere that I should look at sigmas like the for loops they are and now they're so easy to read
15:22	cbp	not a for loop, a for comprehension :-p
15:27	Fare	Hi.
15:28	Fare	I'm trying to use reflection to load & call clojure from java, and am getting a null pointer exception at my first call to Symbol.intern.
15:28	Fare	Do I need to somehow initialize Clojure first? And if so, how do I do that?
15:29	Fare	or am I just calling it wrong?
15:30	Fare	probably just calling it wrong
15:32	stuartsierra	Before the public Java API in Clojure 1.6, you had to "initialize" the Clojure runtime by referencing the class clojure.lang.RT in your code.
15:32	cbp	Fare: are you using 1.6?
15:34	Fare	yes, 1.6
15:34	Fare	I managed to call Symbol.intern. Now having "fun" with Var.intern.
15:34	cbp	oh
15:35	llasram	If you're using 1.6, no need to do that
15:35	llasram	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/changes.md#21-java-api
15:35	llasram	Although you shouldn't need to call Var.intern even on older versions
15:37	Fare	and failing to find read-string — in which namespace is it?
15:38	Fare	and how do I ask the repl?
15:39	llasram	In the REPL you can refer to the var to see it's namespace
15:39	llasram	,#'read-string
15:39	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/read-string
15:39	waynr	is there a simple way to get the 'uberjar' task to prefer locall installed/cached copies of dependency jars?
15:40	Fare	Caused by: java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/core__init.class or clojure/core.clj on classpath:
15:41	llasram	Fare: Well that's fun :-)
15:41	Fare	interestingly, the second time I try to intern the Var, it works!
15:41	Fare	WTF
15:42	Fare	clojure-1.6.0.jar
15:43	waynr	hmm maybe :offline true
15:43	Fare	but of course, if I try to call it, I get: Caused by: java.lang.IllegalStateException: Attempting to call unbound fn: #'clojure.core/read-string
15:44	arrdem	do you know if the clojure core has been loaded yet? there's still init code that does that which may need to be invoked.
15:44	Fare	arrdem, how do I tell? and how do I load it?
15:45	Fare	if clojure needs to be initialized... oops
15:45	arrdem	clojure.lang.RT.doInit()
15:45	llasram	You really shouldn't need to call that yourself
15:46	llasram	Just use the clojure.java.api.Clojure class, or methods on clojure.lang.RT for <1.6
15:47	cbp	ClassCastException appointment.tree.Schedule cannot be cast to appointment.tree.Schedule
15:47	llasram	Static initializers will ensure clojure.core is loaded before you try to access its functions
15:47	cbp	hmm yes indeed makes sense
15:47	Bronsa	cbp: double evaluation of deftypes probably
15:47	cbp	Bronsa: ah
15:49	Fare	maybe there's a problem with my class loader?
15:50	llasram	Fare: Can you gist the actual code you're trying to run?
15:51	Fare	llasram: I can even copy/paste it all. It's a trivial test program that uses a URLClassLoader and reflection to (1) load clojure.jar, (2) extract references to read-string and eval, and (3) tries to use them to hello world with clojure.
15:51	Fare	a bit like clojure.java.api.Clojure, but using reflection because it's all dynamically loaded.
15:57	llasram	Ok -- let's see it :-)
15:58	Fare	where is the right place to paste it?
15:59	llasram	refheap.com or a github gist
16:00	Fare	http://paste.lisp.org/+322O
16:00	arrdem	seriously. refheap in future.
16:00	Fare	to use it, just edit the URL to your clojure.jar
16:01	Fare	and watch it fail :-(
16:05	llasram	Fare: Yeah, I believe you are circumventing everything which would cause `clojure.core` to be loaded
16:05	llasram	The good news is that I don't believe there's any good reason to be doing so
16:06	Fare	llasram, whatever I'm doing or failing to do is out of ignorance
16:06	Fare	that's my first java program
16:06	llasram	In your `var` method, just reflection-invoke the `Clojure.var` or `RT.var` instead of manually fiddling with namespaces
16:07	llasram	Invoking a static method of either of those classes will cause the static initializers to run which actually get Clojure rolling
16:07	llasram	Nope
16:08	llasram	THat's a namespace, not a class
16:08	Fare	oh
16:08	llasram	And (unless I'm mistaken), the ClassLoader.loadClass method does not cause the class's static initializers to run
16:09	Fare	how do I run the initializers?
16:10	llasram	Creating an instance of the class or invoking a static method will do the trick. Passing `true` as a second arg to the loadClass method may also work
16:10	llasram	There the boundaries of my knowledge end
16:13	Fare	ok — but (1) which class(es) should I thus be instantiating?
16:13	Fare	regarding passing true: test.java:90: loadClass(java.lang.String,boolean) has protected access in java.lang.ClassLoader
16:15	llasram	Ok. So just call `Clojure.var` instead of doing the manually fiddling
16:16	joegallo	perhaps consider http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/lang/Class.html#forName%28java.lang.String%29 (and the other arity that allows you to pass a ClassLoader)
16:17	llasram	Ah! Good call
16:19	Fare	joegallo, my understanding is that forName will not use my URLClassLoader
16:20	Fare	oh wait, there is another function of same name and different arity
16:20	joegallo	why wouldn't it? you can pass a classloader as the third arg to the second arity...
16:26	Fare	yes, yes, yes, I was reading the docs for the wrong method
16:27	Fare	still, I get the same error: Caused by: java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/core__init.class or clojure/core.clj on classpath: at clojure.lang.RT.load(RT.java:443)
16:31	benkay	i'd like to run just one test with clojure-test-mode in emacs, any protips?
16:31	benkay	oh clojure-run-test >.<
16:34	benkay	grr but clojure-test-run-test seems to not handle fixtures?
16:35	llasram	A known outstanding issue, generally perceived to be a problem with the way clojure.test does fixtures
16:35	benkay	oh :(
16:35	llasram	Fare: Yeah, I'm at a loss. OOC why the wacky URLClassLoader fun?
16:36	benkay	thanks llasram. any workarounds?
16:36	Fare	Solution was here: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-260
16:36	llasram	benkay: Pretty much just the obvious ones -- either don't use fixtures, or always run all tests in a namespace
16:36	Fare	Thread.currentThread().setContextClassLoader(loader);
16:37	benkay	okay. thanks llasram !
16:39	llasram	Fare: Cool.
16:40	Fare	one more thing, though: clojure's print("hello world") went to /dev/null :-(
16:40	Fare	how do I configure the clojure stdin/stdout?
16:40	technomancy	are you sure it's not just buffered?
16:40	technomancy	try flushing or printing a newline
16:41	Fare	out.println(ReadEval("(* 6 7)")); does print 42
16:41	amalloy	i bet he knows it went to /dev/null because he's readnig /dev/null from another process and saw the output
16:41	Fare	but ReadEval("(print \"Hello, World!\\n\")"); doesn't seem to do anything
16:46	technomancy	amalloy: there should be something that's the opposite of /dev/null
16:46	technomancy	instead of sending output to no file, it sends it to every file
16:47	amalloy	technomancy: when you read from it, you get whatever input you were hoping for
16:47	technomancy	I bet plan9 supports this.
16:48	dbasch	technomancy: you need /dev/pi, just read and wait until you find what you want
16:51	hyPiRion	dbasch: wouldn't that break like, literally all copyrights in the world?
16:52	dbasch	hyPiRion: worse, you could be jailed for possesion of all kinds of illegal information
16:52	jcromartie	I tried to use Clojure in an Atlassian plugin… but that is not going to fly apparently
16:52	hyPiRion	jail all the things
16:54	arrdem	literally infinite sentence!
17:05	jcromartie	I'm not sure but I don't think this is going to work...
17:05	jcromartie	making an uberjar of the dependencies for Atlassian plugins...
17:05	jcromartie	that's just overkill
17:06	arrdem	true story: one time I made a single jar with all the dependencies and package jars for Eclipse
17:12	rasmusto	hrm, I'm getting a stack overflow in my loop/recur...
17:13	rasmusto	my recur step is uh, conj onto a vector, take the rest of a lazy seq, and update a map
17:13	arrdem	source or you're just raving like I am
17:14	amalloy	$google stackoverflow clojure prime sieve dbyrne
17:14	lazybot	[recursion - Recursive function causing a stack overflow - Stack ...] http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2946764/recursive-function-causing-a-stack-overflow
17:14	amalloy	^ for rasmuto
17:15	rasmusto	amalloy: I wonder what my equivalent "filter" is
17:15	amalloy	it's probably concat
17:15	arrdem	definitely concat
17:15	rasmusto	k
17:16	rasmusto	I have update-in, zipmap, but yeah
17:16	arrdem	lazy-seqs ftw
17:16	rasmusto	concat probably :D
17:16	amalloy	rasmusto: if you pasted the code it would be a matter of seconds to identify
17:17	rasmusto	amalloy: https://www.refheap.com/b8a1eda51a44aee5b9907eddf
17:18	amalloy	what the shit
17:18	amalloy	but yes, it's your merge-with concat
17:18	amalloy	instead, use vectors and merge-with into
17:19	rasmusto	amalloy: okay
17:19	rasmusto	amalloy: what "what the shit" btw?
17:19	amalloy	it's huge and messy
17:19	rasmusto	I know it's a bit weird :p
17:19	rasmusto	hah, ok
17:19	arrdem	rasmusto: helper functions man
17:19	rasmusto	rgr, this is a first pass
17:20	arrdem	:+1: do it then do it right. I need that tattooed to my forearms where I can see it when I type.
17:20	rasmusto	arrdem: another thing, allllways start with a loop/recur
17:23	dbasch	see the comment at the bottom of http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/vals
17:23	dbasch	why should that be true?
17:23	dbasch	“Functions keys and vals return sequences such that (= (zipmap (keys m) (vals m)) m)"
17:24	dbasch	does anything guarantee that to be always true?
17:24	arrdem	dbasch: keys is (map first <map>), vals is (map second <map>), zipmap is (into {} (map vector key-seq val-seq))
17:24	arrdem	dbasch: intuitively it must be a round trip operation
17:25	amalloy	dbasch: rich said it once, so it's true. for some reason nobody wants to put it in any official docs
17:25	dbasch	arrdem: in theory you cannot guarantee order
17:26	arrdem	dbasch: sure, but key/value order is not guranteed on maps
17:26	dbasch	what made me think about this is the ugly implementation of map-values here http://aphyr.com/posts/312-clojure-from-the-ground-up-modeling
17:26	arrdem	dbasch: you could argue that the internal structure depends on insertion order reasonably in which case I'll mutter mumbo jumbo about hashing based equality and pray to Rich that it keeps working.
17:27	dbasch	which could be a one-liner with (zipmap (keys m) (map f (vals m))
17:28	amalloy	dbasch: i do prefer the way aphyr does it to using zipmap, although 'for is a lot nicer than map
17:28	amalloy	(into {} (for [[k v] m] [k (f v)]))
17:29	dbasch	that is a long post
17:30	arrdem	that is also guaranteed to use transients in the map construction for what it's worth, although the values will be computed strictly.
17:30	arrdem	dbasch: fun one tho
17:31	dbasch	yes, it’s a good post
17:31	arrdem	orbital insertion maneuvers in Clojure aw man... :D
17:31	dbasch	this is not so great, it was on HN earlier http://elegantcode.com/2014/04/29/clojure-kata-3-roman-numerals-2/
17:32	dbasch	the most convoluted way of converting to roman numerals I’ve seen
17:36	jcromartie	woah… (defn camelCaseNames ?)
17:36	jcromartie	no
17:39	dbasch	if I worked at github I’d write a script to find the longest java class names in all their repos
17:40	gfredericks	dbasch: probably generated
17:40	dbasch	maybe InternalFrameInternalFrameTitlePaneInternalFrameTitlePaneMaximizeButtonWindowNotFocusedState
17:40	amalloy	oh man, roman numerals. three years ago i wrote https://github.com/amalloy/claudius/blob/master/src/claudius/core.clj - pretty funny
17:43	gfredericks	oh are we showing off old clojure code
17:43	dbasch	mildly interesting interview question: given a dictionary, find all the words that are valid roman numerals
17:44	ztellman	dbasch: that's a regex construction question, right?
17:44	gfredericks	here's some project euler code I found from probably fifty years ago: https://www.refheap.com/85808
17:44	gfredericks	that has to be some of the first clojure code I wrote
17:44	dbasch	ztellman: is it? here, I’ll erase the board for you :P
17:45	ztellman	dbasch: ha, I don't have the time right now to dig into it, I was just wondering if it required going higher up Chomsky's hierarchy
17:45	dbasch	ztellman: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/267399/how-do-you-match-only-valid-roman-numerals-with-a-regular-expression
17:45	gtrak	amalloy: cake template.. lol
17:45	ztellman	ha
17:45	gtrak	actually I never got a chance to use it.
17:46	dbasch	I’d just want to see how the person thinks, because it could be solved in different ways
17:47	gfredericks	(defn roman-numeral? [word] (re-find #"X" word))
17:47	rasmusto	those ))) triangles are so cute :)
17:47	gfredericks	rasmusto: I was just wondering to myself where on earth I would have gotten the idea to do that
17:47	amalloy	gfredericks: i was reading that thinking like "wow he sure is defining a lot of functions, how can you possibly need all of these to solve one euler problem"
17:47	gfredericks	surely I had read somebody else's clojure code by then
17:47	gfredericks	amalloy: and I gave them all great names like p16
17:47	amalloy	well, it was before i got that far
17:48	gfredericks	oooh I had a prelude didn't I
17:48	rasmusto	gfredericks: I do it sometimes, since I haven't fully embraced structural editing and like to move full lines of code around
17:48	gfredericks	that would be amusing if there was an euler problem that needed all of those functions
17:48	amalloy	i was like, what problem needs fibonacci numbers, conversion to binary strings, factorial, and prime factorization
17:48	amalloy	and palindromes!
17:48	SegFaultAX	amalloy: Reading what now? I missed the link.
17:49	amalloy	SegFaultAX: some code gfredericks wrote when he was an infant. https://www.refheap.com/85808
17:49	rasmusto	oh, just noticed the (defn [] p12 (println ...))
17:49	dbasch	gfredericks: a semi-cryptic scrolling game of life https://www.refheap.com/85809
17:49	arrdem	https://www.refheap.com/85808#L-30 tearz
17:49	SegFaultAX	Hah. Those parens, yo...
17:50	gfredericks	arrdem: what aspect of that are we weeping over?
17:50	arrdem	hey at least all that code is easy to compile :P
17:50	arrdem	gfredericks: the apply over a huge sequence, but I guess the core * uses reduce so it works out
17:51	gfredericks	not too huge
17:51	SegFaultAX	arrdem: Yea in fairness that's basically a mathematical translation of factorial.
17:51	amalloy	arrdem: huh? (apply * (take n (iterate inc 1))) is a reasonable way to multiply stuff
17:51	gfredericks	what kind of numbers do you pass to factorial?
17:52	amalloy	gfredericks: integers
17:52	arrdem	gfredericks: ones with units and exponents :D
17:52	rasmusto	3.14!
17:52	gfredericks	thaht was a question for arrdem about why he thought it was a long sequence
17:52	amalloy	i guess the alternative would be to accept your possible joke setup: "I dunno, gfredericks. What kind of numbers do you pass to factorial?"
17:53	gfredericks	dominoes!!!
17:53	amalloy	,(apply *' (range 10000))
17:53	clojurebot	0
17:53	amalloy	,(apply *' (range 1 10000))
17:53	clojurebot	2846259680917054518906413212119868890148051401702799230794179994274411340003764443772990786757784775815884062142317528830042339940153518739052421161382716174819824199827592418289259787898124253120594659962598670656016157203603239792632873671705574197596209947972034615369811989709261127750048419884541047554464244213657330307670362882580354896746111709736957860367019107151273058728104115864056128116...
17:53	arrdem	lololol
17:53	amalloy	large sequences are fine
17:53	SegFaultAX	,(source clojure.core/*')
17:53	clojurebot	Source not found\n
17:54	arrdem	SegFaultAX: line 967
17:55	gfredericks	amalloy: yeah at some point the bigint multiplication will take more time than the sequence overhead eh
17:55	amalloy	pretty damn quickly, i would guess
17:55	amalloy	,(time (dorun (range 1 100000)))
17:55	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 67.798386 msecs"\n
17:55	arrdem	quick add more zeros
17:55	amalloy	,(let [xs (doall (range 1 100000))] (time (apply *' xs)))
17:55	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
17:56	amalloy	apparently bigints are big
17:57	gfredericks	soooo big
17:57	gfredericks	,(let [xs (doall (range 1 10000))] (time (apply *' xs)))
17:57	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 329.470126 msecs"\n284625968091705451890641321211986889014805140170279923079417999427441134000376444377299078675778477581588406214231752883004233994015351873905242116138271617481982419982759241828925978789812425312059465996259867065601615720360323979263287367170557419759620994797203461536981198970926112775004841988454104755446424421365733030767036288258035489674611170973695786036701...
17:58	gfredericks	,````foo
17:58	clojurebot	(clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat (clojure.core/list (quote clojure.core/seq)) (clojure.core/list (clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat (clojure.core/list (quote clojure.core/concat)) (clojure.core/list (clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat (clojure.core/list (quote clojure.core/list)) (clojure.core/list (clojure.core/seq #))))) (clojure.core/list (clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat (clo...
17:58	gfredericks	,``foo
17:58	clojurebot	(quote sandbox/foo)
17:59	gfredericks	I'm just wondering to myself if there's a way to rewrite ` so it works the same for cases that matter but doesn't have exponential blowup
19:11	cbp	Does anyone have an interval tree implementation laying around? :-P None of the ones i found on the internets seem to work well.
19:12	master_op	hello , i'm new in clojure, i want to some a values of a hashmap like this {:a 1 :b 2}
19:12	master_op	i want to get 3 as result
19:12	technomancy	,(apply + (keys {:a 1 :b 2}))
19:12	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
19:12	Fare	load-string is what I wanted! how do I join strings in Java?
19:12	technomancy	derp
19:12	technomancy	,(apply + (vals {:a 1 :b 2}))
19:12	clojurebot	3
19:12	cbp	Guess I gotta dust off that algo book
19:12	master_op	thks
19:13	cbp	:-(
19:15	dbasch	Fare: the old way was to create a StringBuffer and append to it, there might be a better way now
19:16	amalloy	dbasch, Fare: these days StringBuffer is little used; StringBuilder is preferred for building strings (StringBuffer is more like for built strings that you want to mutate)
19:17	dbasch	amalloy: I think StringBuilder is not thread safe or something like that
19:17	cbp	StringBuffer isnt threadsafe
19:17	dbasch	probably doesn[t matter in this case
19:18	cbp	er
19:18	cbp	i mean yes STringbuilder isnt threadsafe
19:20	amalloy	dbasch: that's sorta why it's preferred. don't pay for synchronization overhead when all you're doing is incrementally building a string locally
19:20	amalloy	just like how Vector was superseded by the unsynchronized ArrayList and so on
19:24	arrdem	forget synchronization overhead you don't pay for rendering the entire string to a single byte buffer until you choose to. StringBuilder uses ropes and has awesome concat performance because of it. Building the string at the end is a single O(N) buffer copy which is cheap compared to buffer resizing.
19:36	dbasch	in a way I’m glad I’m starting to forget Java :P
19:36	dbasch	a couple of years ago I saw a preview presentation of the functional features in Java 8 and thought it looked really ugly
20:09	justin_smith	it's ugly but imho it is soo much better than what was there before
20:09	justin_smith	I even managed to use a reduce in some java code the other day
20:10	justin_smith	(faint praise, I know)
20:11	Fare	Hi!
20:11	Fare	how do I call System.out.println from clojure?
20:12	beamso	println
20:12	Fare	(.out System) is an error
20:12	justin_smith	,(.println System/out "hello")
20:12	clojurebot	nil
20:13	beamso	justin_smith: i used java 8 streams the other day as well. having to call .stream() to get something to call .map() or .reduce() on was weird. same with calling .collect to get a list back.
20:13	justin_smith	println will be more likely to use the current clojure output stream
20:13	Fare	why is System/out and not System.out ?
20:13	justin_smith	Fare: static method on the class
20:14	justin_smith	,System/out
20:14	clojurebot	#<PrintStream java.io.PrintStream@1411c67>
20:14	justin_smith	err.. static field that is
20:14	justin_smith	println being the static method on that static field
20:15	justin_smith	beamso: yeah, it is awkward, but it's better than what we could do in java 7
20:15	justin_smith	,(println "Fare: this is what you should actually use)
20:15	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading string>
20:15	justin_smith	err
20:15	justin_smith	,(println "Fare: this is what you should actually use")
20:15	clojurebot	Fare: this is what you should actually use\n
20:16	justin_smith	$source println
20:16	lazybot	println is http://is.gd/ewuFP7
20:17	Fare	justin_smith, thanks a whole lot
20:17	Fare	I'm learning both Java and Clojure at the same time
20:17	justin_smith	ahh, that's tricky
20:17	justin_smith	I learned clojure first, and am finally learning java right now (for career reasons)
20:18	Fare	I just completed my very first Java program: it dynamically loads clojure.jar and load-string's the arguments.
20:23	Fare	I'm just not sure what is the best way to specify where the jar is located. Right now, it's hardwired in the source code... meh
20:23	Fare	what would "best practices" be for parsing arguments, using environment variables, and/or hardwiring a default?
20:24	Fare	ideally, the default would be decided at compile-time but not hardwired in the source code.
20:25	turbofail	the "best practice" i believe is to use clojure.tools.cli, which is a separate library
20:26	turbofail	https://github.com/clojure/tools.cli
20:26	technomancy	for one or two args it's fine to just apply hash-map on a bunch of strings
20:26	technomancy	and merge it into a defaults map
20:27	technomancy	but if you want proper --help output you should use a library
20:28	justin_smith	also consider a config.edn file
20:28	justin_smith	edn is easy to hand edit, super easy to parse
20:29	justin_smith	or config.json if you want it to be less easy but more widely recognized by human users
20:31	hiredman	if only there was a configuration library that could use either
20:31	hiredman	https://github.com/sonian/carica/
20:31	technomancy	carica takes CLI args?
20:34	hiredman	no idea
20:52	lemonodor	it’s not done yet, but this does package level command-line flags, and reads flags from files: https://github.com/wiseman/clj-gflags
20:52	lemonodor	sort of a port of google’s gflags library, if you know that.
21:00	justin_smith	,(merge-with (partial merge-with merge-with) {:a 0 :b {:c 1}} {:b {:c {:d 2}}} {:b {:c {:d {:e 3}}}}) Fare I tried to show you this on ##java lol
21:00	clojurebot	{:b {:c {:d {:e 3}}}, :a 0}
21:03	amalloy	justin_smith: i wanna see a version that works for depths of up to six
21:05	justin_smith	(apply (fn m [& maps] (if (every? map? maps) (apply merge-with m maps) (apply f maps))) maps)
21:05	justin_smith	blatantly stolen
21:06	amalloy	nono, that works for arbitrary depth
21:06	amalloy	it should break for depths 7+
21:06	amalloy	(i was teasing you for presenting a solution that works for up to depth 3 instead of the general solution)
21:07	justin_smith	yeah, I figured
21:08	amalloy	is it really just (merge-with (partial merge-with (partial merge-with ...)))?
21:09	woah	so, would you guys say that it is a requirement to know java to write good clojure or clojurescript?
21:09	amalloy	(nth (iterate (fn [f] (partial merge-with f)) merge) 5), maybe. it's starting to look like a fixed point
21:11	amalloy	yeah, it totally is. that's neat
21:16	arrdem	woah: nope
21:17	justin_smith	it helps to be able to read the docs for whichever backend you are targeting, (and to understand the VM) but clojure does a good job of working standalone
21:17	woah	cool
21:17	mdeboard	Dunno where to ask this question, but has anyone seen any good responses to cemerick's "Distributed Systems and the End of the API"?
21:19	mdeboard	I thought it was a really good introduction to CRDTs but want to read other viewpoints on the "demise of the API" bit
21:19	catern	also interested in that
21:19	catern	I am*
21:22	arrdem	danneu: you realize that paste of your *coin config was public, right?
21:22	beamso	mdeboard: maybe look at the HN thread for discussion/further reading points : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7735141
21:28	mdeboard	beamso: Hey, thanks
21:36	Fare	lemonodor, thanks a lot!
21:36	Fare	I realize that since it's flags for the small java runtime that loads clojure, though, it can't be written in clojure.
21:43	danielcompton	mdeboard I saw some negative comments here https://twitter.com/cemerick/status/466999122139299840
21:45	mdeboard	danielcompton: Thanks
21:45	mdeboard	Would be nice if people would qualify their pooping-upon
21:46	danielcompton	mdeboard FWIW, I didn't agree with them
21:46	mdeboard	I mean I'm sur ethey have reasons, I just want to hear them haha
21:46	danielcompton	mdeboard nothing has been announced so I don't think those comments were very fair
21:46	danielcompton	(dec so)
21:46	lazybot	⇒ -15
21:47	mdeboard	who's so
21:55	danielcompton	mdeboard someone who keeps messing up the highlighting in my IRC client
21:59	mdeboard	danielcompton: lol
22:01	arrdem	mdeboard: downvoting him is our traditional equivalent to kicking that beater car you hate after you get out.
22:01	mdeboard	is this a real person
22:01	arrdem	nobody has cared enough to find out, but last time I tried it didn't respond to pings
22:02	mdeboard	how does he mess up your highlighting? I'm in the emacs/rcirc master race
22:02	arrdem	erc-nick-highlight picks up on him when used as a substring in normal conversation.
22:02	nullptr	hmm, i always assumed this channel just hated stack overflow
22:03	mdeboard	haha
22:03	mdeboard	that's so, so annoying
22:03	nullptr	ha, i'd never noticed the so highlighting until now
22:03	nullptr	(dec so)
22:03	lazybot	⇒ -16
22:04	technomancy	now you can never unsee it
22:04	arrdem	(dec so)
22:04	lazybot	⇒ -17
22:06	mdeboard	rcirc
22:06	mdeboard	do it.
22:06	mdeboard	You know you want to.
22:06	beamso	irssi ftw.
22:08	nullptr	erc is so simple though
22:09	nullptr	it's so easy to fix
22:10	quizdr	(dec so)
22:10	lazybot	⇒ -18
22:10	seangrove	So easy
22:10	seangrove	Not so simple
22:10	nullptr	hmm, that did work actually
22:10	nullptr	(add-to-list 'erc-keywords '("\\bso\\b" erc-default-face))
22:14	Raynes	I don't think of ERC as either simple or easy.
22:16	danielcompton	circle dec'ing so on #clojure
22:16	seangrove	Raynes: Well, it's there. Definitely there.
22:18	justin_smith	(dec so)
22:18	lazybot	⇒ -19
22:18	mdeboard	ERC == Stockholm Syndrome
22:19	quizdr	(dotimes [n 400] (dec so)) lolrotflaghxbcs
22:22	quizdr	I see a lot of David Nolen's tutorials use Google Closure directly to manage quirks between browsers. Anyone know if his Om (or the underlying React) is also doing this automatically?
22:22	quizdr	Or is it wise to continue using Closure even with those libraries?
22:23	nullptr	react isn't, i don't think the om core is either -- but, closure is "in the box" already so i don't see any reason not to use aspects of it which provide value
22:24	quizdr	so the goog.dom ns is alsways going to be there because of how cljs works, right?
22:24	nullptr	i'm not aware of a compilation path that doesn't make closure library available
22:25	nullptr	that said, it would be unwise to consume goog.dom in a non-browser cljs application :)
22:25	danielcompton	nullptr like a node cljs app?
22:25	nullptr	yeah
22:29	ddellacosta	quizdr: the only closure lib Om uses is goog.ui, for generating ids, as far as I know
22:29	quizdr	entering the js world where so many libraries interact with the DOM it is confusing to know which play nice with each other.
22:34	ddellacosta	quizdr: generally it shouldn't be a problem unless the library is crap and writing stuff to the global namespace. But getting a dom element from one and using it with another is no big deal.
22:35	ddellacosta	quizdr: of course, using react means you have to be clear on where in the render cycle you're using external dom libs, but they all behave the same in that sense
22:36	quizdr	ddellacosta thanks. wrapping my head around it all. i think i've settled on Om with maybe just the CSS portion of Bootstrap or PureCSS.io
22:39	ddellacosta	quizdr: yeah, (in reference to bootstraps js widgets) I've done some integration with google closure widgets and I've found its better to lean as heavily on Om/React as you can, mostly because there are assumptions of use when using UI widgets with standard JS libs that the React render cycle can confound
22:39	ddellacosta	quizdr: it's not so much about dom libs conflicting with each other than the basic model of rendering being fundamentally different
22:41	quizdr	ddellacosta for example there are some nice JS drop-down menus in the various UI libraries I've looked at. But I'd be worried about mixing third-party JS with Om, at least at first
22:41	ddellacosta	quizdr: yeah, it can be challenging to get working smoothly. Usually those kinds of widgets have to live in a world of their own and interact with your Om components using channels.
22:42	ddellacosta	quizdr: but good to see if you can do stuff without widgets first...then add them only when they present a clear win as far as avoiding developing stuff from scratch (is my philosophy)
22:43	quizdr	perhaps the curve of integrating them is no less than the time spent writing your own menu, for example
22:45	ddellacosta	quizdr: yeah, I mean, the problem is that there is just less impedance mis-match if you can do things "the Om way." For example, setting state and taking advantage of the natural render update cycle to effect UI updates is really powerful. Once you start using external widgets, you can start to find yourself needing to directly modify the DOM more and more, depending on how you need to integrate stuff...again, this
22:45	ddellacosta	is just based on my experience w/Google closure widgets.
22:47	quizdr	do i understand correctly that Om can re-render part of a DOM while another part is currently being interacted with by the user? Such as a text field being typed in while something else updates due to AJAX callback or whatever
22:51	ddellacosta	quizdr: I mean, I wouldn't put it that way--in one sense Om is really simple, it's just responding to updates to the underlying data structures
22:52	ddellacosta	quizdr: It doesn't "know" that a user is interacting with the DOM in any meaningful sense.
22:52	quizdr	so what happens when your page gets a callback that needs to be rendered and the user is interacting with the page; is it queued?
22:55	beamso	i think what you're asking is more about if and how the user's interaction changes the om state
22:55	quizdr	it will probably become clear as I build out some basic stuff first
22:56	beamso	i know for one of the things that you've mentioned, autocomplete, jquery ui gives you configuration and the hooks to link back into your form.
22:56	ddellacosta	quizdr: as far as I understand, if that callback updates data that is associated with an Om component, Om will trigger a React update
22:58	ddellacosta	quizdr: if the user is interacting with the page and that causes a change to the data, that will just be triggered as it happens. So yeah, things get queued basically. But if multiple app-data/state changes happen within a single render cycle, they will get batched, as far as I know.
22:59	quizdr	ok
22:59	quizdr	i've got some learning to do
22:59	quizdr	you use async a lot in your Om stuff?
22:59	ddellacosta	quizdr: play with it, read the source, it will become more clear. :-)
22:59	quizdr	watched several asyn vids yesterday, looks amazing even for JS
23:00	ddellacosta	quizdr: I use core.async extensively in my Om code...I probably couldn't write Om components without it. It's a key part of it
23:00	quizdr	dnolen is an async evangelist and i've been watching his presentations. quite interesting indeed.
23:01	ddellacosta	quizdr: yeah, core.async is crazy cool. I've been using it for half a year and still feel like I haven't tapped its potential yet
23:02	quizdr	an on JS it's like half the power as on JVM but that shows how well thought the API is and the implementation to allow both environments access to it
23:02	ffmpegleg	mind linking one of those vids?
23:03	quizdr	ffmpegleg just search youtube for dnolen and you'll see the titles. anything with async
23:03	quizdr	or maybe search "david nolen"
23:03	quizdr	ffmpegleg his blog is full, and i do mean fulllll, of many many examples of it in clojurescript across many applications and difficulty levels
23:04	quizdr	for starters: http://swannodette.github.io/2013/11/07/clojurescript-101/
23:04	ffmpegleg	thanks :)
23:04	quizdr	when i saw the illusion of multithreading in the browser he demonstrated, it just blew my mind.
23:06	ddellacosta	also, Timothy Baldridge (one of the core.async main authors) just posted some videos recently about core.async: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure/6g7WSr41z_Y
23:07	mdedetrich	quizdr: its not multithreaded, its concurrent programming
23:07	mdedetrich	*multithreading
23:07	mdedetrich	they are separate things, a lot of people confuse them
23:08	quizdr	mdedetrich i know it's not multihreaded, but as pointed out in the demos, it gives JS programmers an illusion of doing things normally associated with multithreading (and concurrency) even though threads are not supported in the browser
23:09	quizdr	ddellacosta good link thanks. looks like most of the videos are a buck to watch, but probably worth it
23:09	ddellacosta	quizdr: oh, are they? sorry didn't realize
23:10	mdedetrich	true, I guess my general point is that people conflate concurrent programming with multithreading, concurrent programming is an abstract concept where as multithreading is a feature of the hardware
23:10	quizdr	ddellacosta some are free, but frankly it's worth a buck
23:10	quizdr	i saw Tim's async presentation from 2013 on youtube (i think) and he's a good presenter
23:10	beamso	free : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enwIIGzhahw
23:10	ffmpegleg	just looked at the 10,000 processes one -- think I need to get into Om
23:11	ddellacosta	mdedetrich: I think you could reasonably state that core.async provides the illusion of multithreading in the browser, even if core.async is fundamentally about concurrent programming
23:11	quizdr	though I wonder if I am in the minority of watchers who need to pause a video for several moments and rewind sometimes to really know what they are talking about!
23:11	ddellacosta	quizdr: no, I do that too!
23:11	quizdr	beamso yes that's the one I'm talking about
23:12	mdedetrich	ddellacosta: I think its more accurate to say that core.async provides an abstract model that is typically used in multthreading applications, but it amounts to the same thing
23:12	quizdr	ddellacosta if i was actually present at these conferences i'd probably not get so much out of them because i just don't have the experience (and probably the brainpower) to follow these presentations in real-time with the presenters
23:12	ddellacosta	mdedetrich: yes, I mean, I think we're quibbling here. The main point is just that core.async makes the single-threaded nature of JS not matter so much
23:13	quizdr	as was said on a recent episode of "Silicon Valley", "You guys are arguing over which metaphor to use to express that you actually agree with each other."
23:13	mdedetrich	well yeah, I think core.asyncs great achievment is it brings general concurrent concept to JS
23:13	mdedetrich	quizdr: this is the internetz, we are supposed to argue!
23:14	mdedetrich	but in all honestly, core.async is amazing
23:15	ddellacosta	mdedetrich, quizdr: yeah, haha...I actually hate that kind of argumentative thing. Especially when people are pretty much in agreement
23:15	ddellacosta	but agreed, core.async is the bee's knees
23:15	quizdr	so which one is it then??? is it "amazing" or is the "bee's knees" make up your minds already!!
23:16	ddellacosta	quizdr: definitely the bee's knees, I don't know about all those other superlatives. ;-)
23:16	quizdr	off topic, are you in Tokyo or a different city? What's the air quality like in Japan or Tokyo? is a big city mesh of pollution as in so many other places?
23:22	ddellacosta	quizdr: sorry, didn't see your question. I'm in Tokyo. The air quality is good, except some days when we get winds from China...haha
23:25	quizdr	as i get older i find myself looking for lively places with good air. Singapore's jumps around a lot due to fires from Sumatra and Malaysia
23:26	ddellacosta	quizdr: ah. Yeah, Tokyo's not bad, really
23:26	ddellacosta	I don't have numbers for you or anything, but it's good
23:26	ddellacosta	I've got the windows open right and a pleasant breeze comes in here and there. It's a bright sunny day.
23:26	quizdr	i'm going to have to check it out there. trying to make it around the region as much as i can in case i leave this part of the world some day
23:29	yedi	so i want to make a group text chatting app in the browser, does anyone have any pointers / resources i can look at with regards to dealing with the concepts of "time" in distributed real time apps. I.E. how to determine the ordering of messages
23:30	quizdr	yedi lots of chats are asynchronous, such as IRC in fact, and timing is not always the same for different participants. messages aren't guaranteed to be in a strict order
23:31	Frozenlock	yedi: timestamps? (or would that fail if the user has a misconfigured clock?)
23:31	yedi	so the order of messages on two different clients can differ
23:31	ivan	yedi: show messages in the the order the server received them?
23:31	quizdr	yedi often yes. it depends how important this is to you.
23:31	quizdr	for casual cases, i wouldn't expect ordering to be so important
23:31	ivan	yedi: oh, distributed
23:33	ddellacosta	yedi: maybe start here? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamport_timestamps
23:34	ddellacosta	Lamport is the man as far as this stuff is concerned
23:34	ddellacosta	check the date on that paper at the bottom...1978
23:34	quizdr	ddellacosta 1978 is also when CSP was announced, the foundation of core.async
23:35	ddellacosta	quizdr: really? didn't know that, cool
23:35	quizdr	good year! i was also born that year. omg what is happening right now
23:35	ddellacosta	heh
23:36	yedi	ddellacosta: thanks for the link
23:37	ddellacosta	np
23:39	mdeboard	god how did
23:39	mdeboard	Everything's coming up lamport for me tonight
23:42	en16m4666	does lisp code work in clojure?
23:43	en16m4666	any1 want to share clojure code on a sudoku puzzle solver
23:44	sjy	en16m4666: well, clojure is a lisp dialect. so the answer is 'yes' in a sense, but lisp dialects are not necessarily mutually intelligible...
23:44	rritoch	Hi, I have a q? and I'm not sure if this is the best place for it. Is it possible to gen-class a static constructor?
23:44	ddellacosta	en16m4666: 1) not directly 2) https://gist.github.com/swannodette/3217582
23:45	en16m4666	word brah
23:45	mdedetrich	en16m4666: although clojure is technically a lisp dialect, its quite different from the other lisps
23:46	mdedetrich	I mean basic lisp is so 'low level' (if that makes sense) that calling clojure a lisp dialect isn't really useful
23:46	rritoch	The reason I ask is this project (https://github.com/rritoch/clj-nativedep) which helps with loading native dependencies seems to require that loading occurs in static constructors so up till now all implementations are depending on a java jar that contains classes with static constructors.
23:50	quizdr	maybe someone can help me understand these cljs async basics in this small snippet: https://www.refheap.com/85823 My first question is where does this go block actually reside in the system? it's clearly a piece of state that the program has access to
23:52	ddellacosta	rritoch: sorry, not a java interop expert...sometimes you get llasram or somebody around who knows this stuff well though...
23:54	beamso	a constructor isn't static. do you mean a factory method?
23:55	rritoch	ddellacosta: thanks I'll keep my eye open for llasram
23:56	rritoch	beamso: See https://github.com/rritoch/WarpCTL/blob/master/extra/JADL-SDK/build/java/src/com/vnetpublishing/swig/adl/jadl_sdk.java#L13 which is a static constructor, and utilizing the clj-nativedep library
23:58	beamso	that's a static initialisation block, not a constructor.
23:59	rritoch	beamso: Ok... Call it what you will, can it be created in a Clojure gen-class?