#clojure – 2014-05-08

2014-05-08

00:51	PigDude	is #inst reader macro documented somewhere?
00:52	PigDude	*data reader
02:53	dhruvasagar	Hey guys, I am learning clojure and having fun, I am a little confused with the syntax of this function (.toUpperCase), it looks like most string functions are like this, I am unable to get (doc .toUpperCase) and (macroexpand) also doesn't do anything for this so I am not sure what to make of this '.' methods
02:53	beamso	,(.toUpperCase "foo")
02:53	clojurebot	"FOO"
02:53	beamso	if it starts with a ., it's most likely java interop
02:53	dhruvasagar	beamso: I know how to use it, I just don't understand the significance of the '.'
02:54	dbasch	it’s java interop, .toUpperCase is a method of java String
02:54	dhruvasagar	dbasch: why the '.' ?
02:54	beamso	then it looks like a method call?
02:54	dbasch	dhruvasagar: see http://clojure.org/java_interop
02:54	dhruvasagar	dbasch: thanks, reading
02:54	dhruvasagar	beamso: (toUppercase "asd") also looks like a method call
02:54	dhruvasagar	babilen: reading the interop docs
02:55	dhruvasagar	beamso: *
02:55	servo	isn't like everything in clojure java interop?
02:55	dhruvasagar	servo: I don't think so, libraries written in clojure are different from the ones borrowed / imported from java
02:56	dhruvasagar	servo: I suppose this is the way to differentiate
02:56	servo	i guess im conflating java/jvm
02:56	dbasch	servo: there’s clojure for other platforms, most notably clojurescript on javascript
02:57	servo	(not= clojure clojurescipt) (== clojure clojurescript)
03:01	dhruvasagar	I am considering building a small webapp this weekend using clojure, I am considering using something like Noir / Luminus, however I've been recommended to use compojure / rain directly, what are your thoughts ?
03:01	servo	noir is deprecated
03:01	dhruvasagar	s/rain/ring
03:02	dhruvasagar	servo: why so >
03:02	servo	use httpkit + compojure
03:02	beamso	i thought noir was deprecated but lib-noir wasn't
03:02	servo	i never said lib-noir was deprecated ;)
03:02	beamso	ah
03:03	dhruvasagar	servo: checking out httpkit
03:03	servo	httpkit is the shiz
03:03	dhruvasagar	servo: interesting, my familiarity to nodejs might come in handy
03:04	clgv	dhruvasagar: ring+compojure is pretty standard
03:04	dhruvasagar	clgv: hey :)
03:04	dbasch	dhruvasagar: start with compojure and see if that’s enough for what you want to build
03:05	dhruvasagar	dbasch: what about templating?
03:06	servo	i use hiccup
03:06	servo	but i hear good things about enlive
03:06	dbasch	dhruvasagar: whatever you like, really
03:06	dbasch	hiccup is ok
03:06	clgv	servo: yeah well, hiccup is not really templating, you'll force you designers to learn the EDN part of Clojure ;)
03:07	servo	i consider that a win
03:07	dbasch	or you could go the api / client-side app route
03:09	servo	im kinda of the opinion that only static data should be spit out as html
03:09	servo	and data should be used to update dom using reactjs et al
03:09	dhruvasagar	servo: I agree
03:09	dhruvasagar	servo: reactjs / angular / knockout ?
03:09	beamso	sometimes my html output isn't for browsers :/
03:09	servo	what reads html besides browsers?
03:10	beamso	wkhtmltopdf
03:10	dhruvasagar	servo: he didn't mention html
03:10	dhruvasagar	servo: oops my bad
03:10	servo	ok
03:11	servo	so for the other 99% of use cases id say my opinion still stands
03:12	dhruvasagar	servo: whatever you said is pretty much http standard...
03:12	dhruvasagar	servo: I can't output dynamic data as html...unless I am thinking wrong
03:13	servo	dynamic on the server side
03:13	servo	before render
03:14	dhruvasagar	is :use deprecated ?
03:14	beamso	i take it that it's easy to use reactjs with REST resources?
03:14	dhruvasagar	beamso: I think so
03:14	clgv	yes you shoud only use "use" on the repl
03:14	dhruvasagar	beamso: but I think either angular or knockout or even backbone would do good too
03:15	dhruvasagar	clgv: thanks
03:15	servo	im a big fan of react
03:15	beamso	i didn't like what i saw of angular
03:15	dhruvasagar	servo: tbh I haven't used it much
03:15	servo	learning curve with angular is too steep
03:15	clgv	(:require [my.awesome.namespace :as an]) with (an/my-fn ...) makes it clear where the function is defined
03:15	dhruvasagar	so far the most that i've liked is knockout
03:16	dhruvasagar	knockoutjs is pretty good, have started disliking backbonejs since I used knockoutjs
03:16	servo	theres a cool clojurescript lib for react called om
03:16	servo	although personally i like to write native javascript
03:16	dhruvasagar	servo: me too
03:17	dhruvasagar	servo: I did like Coffeescript for a bit, but then I guess I just didn't groke js well enough then
03:18	servo	coffee script is ok. one good thing is that it's guaranteed to pass lint in script mode everytime
03:18	servo	strict mode*
03:18	sjy	i still like coffeescript. are you saying there comes a level of js zen where you actually want to mess around with prototypes?
03:18	dhruvasagar	sjy: well sort of, I think it's more to do with the ease of debugging
03:20	servo	not everyone likes coffeescript and when you're on a team you force people to maintain code. vanilla javascript is standard. its mostly a political thing
03:20	sjy	fair point, i don't use coffeescript at work. tbh 90% of the benefit for me is not having to write out "function"
03:21	servo	function is only one more character than (defn )
03:23	servo	although most editors will autocomplete the trailing )
03:24	dhruvasagar	sjy: you can always use snippets
03:24	servo	snippets?
03:25	dhruvasagar	servo: what editor do you use ?
03:25	dhruvasagar	servo: I guess you could call them templates too ?
03:25	servo	sublime
03:25	dhruvasagar	servo: or bundles /
03:25	servo	ah
03:25	servo	i know what you're talkign about now
03:27	servo	bengillies: you have the same last name as me
03:28	dhruvasagar	servo: and that would be ?
03:29	servo	gillies
03:29	servo	obviously
03:30	servo	:)
03:30	dhruvasagar	servo: k :)
03:31	servo	almost have 1000 messages logged from #ubuntu into datomic woo
03:32	dhruvasagar	servo: interesting datomic
03:33	dhruvasagar	servo: wonder how they manage the queries since they maintain all versions / changes of a record (document?)
03:33	servo	datomic is to databases as jesus is to sinners
03:34	servo	dhruvasagar: queries happen in the application
03:34	dhruvasagar	servo: I meant resolving queries
03:34	servo	the data store is just a binary blob key value covering index
03:34	dhruvasagar	servo: I suppose they just get the latest version
03:35	servo	its the datom with newest transaction id
03:36	servo	theres an index that groups transaction ids
03:39	dhruvasagar	servo: cool
03:39	dhruvasagar	servo: sounds interesting although might force a lot of horizontal scaling and backups etc will be slower etc
03:39	dhruvasagar	servo: write performance would also be compromised a little
03:40	dhruvasagar	servo: still an interesting idea especially considering read is the most frequent operation
03:45	servo	writes are slower only in theory
03:46	servo	with dynamodb cranked up you will have to try really hard for transactor to get away from you
03:49	dhruvasagar	servo: k
05:40	jcidaho	Anyone tried https://github.com/sunng87/hbs?
05:40	jcidaho	handlebars for Clojure?
06:13	clgv	jcidaho: sparse docs. syntax for variables looks similar to selmer but no idea what the collection syntax looks like
06:24	jcidaho	clgv: Have you used Selmer? We are analyzing templating options
06:25	jcidaho	we have a mixed team of Clojurians and front end ppl who want to hack on the HTML templates
06:25	jcidaho	Something mustache related is the current favourite option, but the logic-less side isn't so appealing
06:26	clgv	jcidaho: one of our students is using it for his project. so we'll see how it performs...
06:26	Glenjamin	i'm not clear why you'd use mustache if you don't go logic-less?
06:26	Glenjamin	the main selling point was portability, i thought
06:27	jcidaho	Glenjamin - it's an easy templating language for UX devs + Clojure server-side devs to converge, plus the template can be used client-side, the door is open to that possibility
06:28	Glenjamin	jcidaho: as soon as you add logic, the server-client stuff gets much harder. unless you're using a language that runs both sides i guess
06:28	Glenjamin	raw mustache gets is client/server portability by having very few features
06:29	jcidaho	Glenjamin - Yeah. Handlebars is an option, so long as both server-side and client-side use the same extensions
06:29	jcidaho	I'm tempted by Antlers too
06:29	Glenjamin	mm, whenever i've used mustache i've done an explicit "presenter" layer
06:30	jcidaho	Glenjamin - makes sense - I've seen a large project where we didn't do that, and wish we had
06:32	Glenjamin	yeah, mustache trades off power for portability - so you have to put the power somewhere else or its just a mess
06:33	Glenjamin	but if you want UX people to be able to make significant changes to rendering logic it probably isn't a good fit
06:34	jcidaho	I wonder what are the other options? Hiccup would be too hard core for them, as would Enlive..
06:34	Glenjamin	something derived from the django/jinga/twig family i guess
06:36	jcidaho	Selma
06:36	martintrojer	can you render selmer templates in the client?
06:38	jcidaho	I guess if you need to, you can just use pure mustache, which is a subset of Selma.. (haven't used Selma, so making an educated guess)
06:41	locks	selma?
06:41	ssideris	jcidaho: with this scenario there is the added complexity of staying within mustache syntax in some cases and not staying within it in some others
06:42	jcidaho	yup - templates living in a special directory that swing both ways, and are restricted to normal mustache
06:42	jcidaho	a price must be paid somewhere..
06:42	jcidaho	https://github.com/yogthos/Selmer
06:44	locks	thanks jcidaho, that was proving tricky to search for
06:47	jcidaho	Sorry, I typoed
07:37	CookedGr1phon	Rather than the error message "nth not supported on this type", for the sake of clojure beginners, would it not make more sense to say something like "Was expecting a value which supports nth, e.g. a vector"
07:38	CookedGr1phon	and while we're at it, what about printing the value that's at fault, rather than just its type
07:39	CookedGr1phon	it really bugs me that error messages almost never show you what you passed in to make it complain, just make cryptic comments about how it was wrong
07:57	clgv	CookedGr1phon: yeah would be awesome if the clojure compiler would throw ExceptionInfo instances with additional context data
07:58	CookedGr1phon	well ideally we could browse all the values at every stage in the stack frame, but I'd settle for up to 30 characters of the pr-str'd value that's caused the issue in the message
07:59	CookedGr1phon	(any more than that you might make the error message stupidly large
07:59	CookedGr1phon	but a snippet is usually enough to give you an idea where to look for your error
07:59	clgv	well if it used ExceptionInfo the REPL frontends could implement functions to investigate that
08:01	CookedGr1phon	guess so
08:02	CookedGr1phon	getting more information (specifically locals from stack frames) into exceptions would make working with clojure 100x smoother
08:03	Glenjamin	there's a suggestion in the clojure wiki about being able to run in different modes
08:03	Glenjamin	you generally don't want locals-capture if you're in production or benchmarking, for example
08:03	Glenjamin	but you would want that in dev
08:03	CookedGr1phon	sounds promising
08:25	borkdude	I got this in my profiles.clj: https://www.refheap.com/85253 - and this in my project.clj: :profiles {:ring-server {:dependencies [[org.immutant/immutant-jobs "1.1.1"]]}}
08:26	borkdude	yet when I start my project like this: lein with-profile ring-server ring server
08:26	borkdude	I get this: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.RuntimeException: No reader function for tag spy/p, compiling:(fuod/report.clj:206:72)
08:26	borkdude	help.
08:27	clgv	borkdude: you specify dependencies in your profile.clj? that's very likely a really bad idea
08:27	clgv	borkdude: oh wait. missread "lein-ring" as "ring" sorry
08:28	agarman	clgv it's not a bad idea, just one that you need to be careful with as you can accidentally use something in a project and forget to add it to the project
08:29	borkdude	it is an idea I got from http://dev.solita.fi/2014/03/18/pimp-my-repl.html
08:29	Glenjamin	that sounds like it makes it a bad idea to me :)
08:29	borkdude	only deps for debugging purposes
08:29	Glenjamin	oh right, debugging / tooling dependencies
08:29	agarman	I use it for alembic, fresh, criterium, sigmund, better stack trace etc.
08:29	Glenjamin	i see now
08:29	agarman	lots of stuff that just doesn't belong in a project.clj
08:30	Glenjamin	borkdude: try lein with-profile ring-server classpath
08:31	clgv	agarman: yeah tools are fine, but not something like "ring" ;)
08:32	agarman	I do keep separate profiles for when I want to launch and incanter, datomic or postgresql repl
08:32	AWizzArd	Does Jetty, Ring or Compojure have an intelligent way on how to treat gzipped files? I could easily add a with-gzip middleware, but this would cost cpu on each request. Instead I want to pre-gzip my static files and have them delivered.
08:32	clgv	borkdude: but it is possible that the :user profile is not used for ring-server you should check that
08:33	borkdude	ah, the problem might be that I first have to load the program, then add the #spy/p thing, because of some dynamism
08:35	justin_smith	/join #caribou
08:35	justin_smith	err
08:39	borkdude	and that it fails when I load it at firstah wait. if I start with lein with-profile ring-server,user ring server
08:40	borkdude	sorry. if I start with lein with-profile ring-server,user ring server I get this error msg: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.IllegalStateException: Attempting to call unbound fn: #'spyscope.core/print-log, compiling:(fuod/report.clj:206:72)
08:42	justin_smith	AWizzArd: I think hlship is working on a ring content middleware that would cover issues like that - he is also the guy behind the tapestry java lib
08:44	justin_smith	https://github.com/hlship/dieter
08:44	justin_smith	oh, never mind, that doesn't do gzip (yet?)
08:47	clgv	borkdude: huh. how about adding spyscope to the dev dependencies or dependencies of the project and see whether that works first? then you can move it farther away incrementally and see when it fails
08:47	borkdude	clgv good idea
08:49	AWizzArd	justin_smith: yeah, a middleware that checks when "game.html" is requested if there is also a "game.html.gzip" and deliver that, along with the right response headers.
08:49	justin_smith	AWizzArd: and also maybe generate game.html.gzip if that does not exist yet - for static files at least
08:49	justin_smith	this would be tricky with templates
08:50	AWizzArd	I would be happy enough if it didn’t try to gzip explicitly, just serving the corresponding files if they should exist, or just serve what was requested in the first place.
08:52	justin_smith	now that I think about it - why not a wrapper for wrap-resource, where it first looks for foo.bar.gzip (returning if found) and otherwise for foo.bar
08:52	justin_smith	that should be like a 5 line middleware
08:52	clgv	AWizzArd: with-gzip middleware using core.cache?
08:53	AWizzArd	clgv: intriguing
08:54	Glenjamin	is there a load balancer / reverse proxy between your app and the internet?
08:54	Glenjamin	i'd normally just have my app return proper mime types and put this sort of thing there
08:54	AWizzArd	Glenjamin: not yet, but I guess nginx is just a question of time.
08:55	justin_smith	(inc Glenjamin)
08:55	lazybot	⇒ 3
08:55	justin_smith	yeah, let nginx or varnish handle that actually
08:55	Glenjamin	in that case with-gzip + proper cache headers will probably be fine
08:56	AWizzArd	Glenjamin: so nginx would not forward requests of "game.js" to my Jetty anymore, but instead cache&deliver game.js.gzip itself?
08:56	Glenjamin	yeah, i'd maybe have a deploy step that created assets and gzipped versions
08:56	justin_smith	AWizzArd: yeah, you can configure nginx to do that
08:56	Glenjamin	although ideally you want to put a hash in the URL, the cache forever
08:56	borkdude	argh, context switch from another project to this clojure project. why is this false? (== 0M 0.000M)
08:56	justin_smith	and that is better than serving static resources from ring
08:57	AWizzArd	Okay, sounds fine then, thx guys.
08:57	justin_smith	borkdude: == respects float vs. integral distinction iirc
08:57	justin_smith	borkdude: what is your version? this stuff has been in flux a little lately
08:58	justin_smith	,(== 0M 0.000M)
08:58	clojurebot	true
08:58	justin_smith	maybe update your version
08:58	borkdude	1.5.1 still
08:58	justin_smith	,clojure-version
08:58	clojurebot	{:major 1, :minor 6, :incremental 0, :qualifier nil}
08:58	borkdude	ok I'll upgrade
08:59	borkdude	ah this could also explain why I'm seeing different results locally compared to on the server. if I use immutant, does it respect the clojure version of the project?
08:59	justin_smith	I don't know immutant
08:59	tcrawley	borkdude: yes, Immutant will use the clojure dep in your project.clj
08:59	borkdude	ok, then it doesn't explain it :)
09:00	borkdude	what is the latest clojure, 1.6.0? or 1.6.1? ?
09:00	tcrawley	1.6.0
09:00	borkdude	k
09:00	martinklepsch	I'm processing lots of data and my JVM just crashed because there was no more memory available (on a 512mb machine ;D) — is there anything that I can do to make that work or should I just go for more ram?
09:01	borkdude	martinklepsch you can increase the default heap space
09:01	justin_smith	borkdude: when the machine has 512 max that won't go too far
09:01	borkdude	justin_smith true, but mayb it's not even using all of that
09:03	hyPiRion	martinklepsch: would you expect it to crash? If possible, stream the data instead of reading it all in at once
09:03	hyPiRion	I have no idea if that's your issue, of course
09:04	martinklepsch	hyPiRion, it doesn't surprise me to much. I want to bulk insert stuff into elasticsearch so not sure if streaming would work in that context
09:04	hyPiRion	ah
09:05	martinklepsch	borkdude, just reading up on heap space a bit. can I do that with leiningen? I'm just running stuff from the repl on that server
09:05	borkdude	martinklepsch yeah, you can define jvm-opts
09:05	Glenjamin	if the machine only has 512, you'll just have to rely on lazy sequences
09:06	borkdude	martinklepsch but I'd have to look it up also
09:06	Glenjamin	steer clear of big vectors or maps
09:06	martinklepsch	borkdude
09:06	martinklepsch	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3757223/jvm-options-using-leiningen
09:06	borkdude	martinklepsch the answer from 2010, I would also check in the leiningen docs
09:07	martinklepsch	borkdude, that still seems valid: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj
09:07	hyPiRion	martinklepsch: `:jvm-opts [your-jvm-opts]`. Eventually try to uberjar and run
09:07	justin_smith	you need ^:replace for some jvm-opts to really apply
09:07	justin_smith	otherwise they get overridden by some defaults
09:07	justin_smith	-server is one of those
09:08	martinklepsch	justin_smith, what does server do?
09:08	Glenjamin	-server is default, or -server doesn't get added?
09:08	hyPiRion	justin_smith: That was changed, I think it only applies to lein pre 2.0.x
09:08	Glenjamin	ah, right
09:08	justin_smith	hyPiRion: definitely applies to some 2.x
09:08	Glenjamin	i added -server recently and it seemed to work
09:08	Glenjamin	on latest
09:08	justin_smith	martinklepsch: changes the hotspot optimization strategy, and affects startup time
09:09	justin_smith	Glenjamin: good to know, thanks
09:09	hyPiRion	justin_smith: technomancy/leiningen#1230
09:09	lazybot	Set default :jvm-opts in :base profile to :displace -- https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/pull/1230 is closed
09:10	hyPiRion	So uh, pre 2.3
09:10	justin_smith	cool, good to know that changed
09:11	hyPiRion	still an iffy problem though. Wish we could please everyone with some good defaults
09:11	rolfb	any mnemonics for remember which book is which of "Programming Clojure" and "Clojure Programming" ?
09:12	martinklepsch	so with 512mb ram I would go for something like :jvm-opts ["-Xmx265m"] or is it safe to use 512m as well?
09:13	justin_smith	depends, does your OS use memory?
09:14	martinklepsch	justin_smith, uh, yeah?
09:15	martinklepsch	I guess 512 mb is just not enough to run riemann, elasticsearch + my data intensive program. :D
09:15	martinklepsch	(which is fine :))
10:04	martinklepsch	is there something about running lein as root that will absolutely ruin my life?
10:06	justin_smith	well, lein is a dev and build tool...
10:06	justin_smith	why do you want to run lein as root?
10:08	clgv	martinklepsch: except from the usual reasons not to run any application programs as root if not necessary?
10:08	martinklepsch	justin_smith, clgv, I'm just toying around and am to lazy to setup non-root for that :P
10:09	martinklepsch	switching to a 2GB machine seemed to fix the problem btw
10:09	justin_smith	you are on a system that has no non-root user?
10:09	clgv	martinklepsch: too lazy for a "useradd ..." ?
10:09	justin_smith	making a user account takes about 1 minute tops
10:10	martinklepsch	yeah, but than I need to switch to do certain like running docker and stuff
10:10	martinklepsch	but yeah, maybe I should just do it
10:11	justin_smith	martinklepsch: consider making an uberjar on the dev machine, and just running java -jar on prod also
10:11	martinklepsch	justin_smith, would that allow me to jump into a repl?
10:11	martinklepsch	I just wondered — when I do a lot of data processing and print all that data to the repl because the function I'm calling just returns that data, could that be the reason for memory issues?
10:12	martinklepsch	probably yes right?
10:12	martinklepsch	because that 2gig machine just crashed too haha
10:12	justin_smith	martinklepsch: if you use tools.nrepl.server you can connect to the app with a repl
10:12	martinklepsch	REMOTELY AS WELL?!!
10:12	martinklepsch	that would be crazy cool
10:13	justin_smith	make an ssh tunnel
10:13	martinklepsch	yeah
10:13	justin_smith	don't open nrepl to the whole world :)
10:13	justin_smith	yes, works remotely
10:13	justin_smith	also, use an ssh tunnel to connect a local visualvm (or other profiler) process to the server
10:13	justin_smith	to see what is really happening, where resources are actually going, etc
10:13	martinklepsch	haha, I mean, I run my stuff as root so I can open the nrepl to the world as well right ;)
10:13	justin_smith	visualvm comes with the jdk
10:16	borkdude	can I ask a question about cursive clojure here?
10:17	justin_smith	martinklepsch: http://java.dzone.com/articles/how-debug-remote-java-applicat this shows how to start the java process with a debug port open
10:18	justin_smith	you can add the args to the lein :jvm-opts if you still don't want to uberjar (though I still recommend making uberjars and not running lein on prod)
10:18	borkdude	my question is: how can I debug while starting lein ring server in cursive clojure
10:18	martinklepsch	justin_smith, eclipse?! ;P
10:18	justin_smith	hah, stop at the jvm setup step
10:18	justin_smith	and connect a real profiler
10:19	martinklepsch	justin_smith, yeah will probably do that in the future. seems saner and I wanted to understand that whole uberjar stuff better anyway
10:19	justin_smith	it's not super hard, just means you need a compiled -main for the app
10:20	justin_smith	there is a way to specify the jar, then the class, then the args so you don't need a compiled main as well
10:20	martinklepsch	justin_smith, yeah got so far the last time but ran into other issues and then stopped
10:20	Glenjamin	if you uberjar, presumably there's no way for it to pick up the :jvm_opts from your project.clj anymore?
10:20	borkdude	or lein immutant run for that matter
10:21	justin_smith	Glenjamin: right, I typically make a short startup scripts with my prod jvm opts
10:21	Glenjamin	makes sense
10:22	justin_smith	it just eliminates a few moving parts
10:22	justin_smith	and makes restarts on the server much faster
10:22	martinklepsch	justin_smith, just for the interim — could it be that printing all that stuff to the repl actually causes the memory to get full because it's stored until the fn returns?
10:23	justin_smith	martinklepsch: depends on whether you are holding on to the head of lazy sequences
10:23	martinklepsch	holding on to the head?
10:23	justin_smith	lazy sequences reduce memory usage if you iterate over them but don't have abinding to the head (the first element)
10:23	justin_smith	if the head is bound, then all of the lazy sequence must be stored
10:24	justin_smith	because it is accessible via the head
10:24	justin_smith	if you print the lazy sequence in its entirety, then the whole thing will be realized
10:25	justin_smith	if you instead print as you process, and don't hold onto the head, then lazy sequences can actually help you reduce memory usage
10:25	justin_smith	this means not binding the entire sequence, instead using it as it is generated
10:25	martinklepsch	justin_smith, the printing just happens as a consequence of the called function returning all the data
10:26	justin_smith	(let [r (range)] (map f r)) <- this eats up heap
10:26	justin_smith	(map f (range)) <- this doesn't neccessarily eat up heap
10:26	justin_smith	in the second case, clojure knows that nobody can actually access the previous elements of (range) so it can let them be collected
10:27	martinklepsch	and the repl does what you just described I think, i.e. it waits until the function is done and then attempts to print it all
10:27	justin_smith	it does the first thing, holding onto the entire lazy-seq
10:27	justin_smith	you should print element by element
10:28	martinklepsch	yeah
10:28	justin_smith	(if you want to conserve mem)
10:28	martinklepsch	think I understood how to fix it, thank you!
10:28	martinklepsch	(inc justin_smith)
10:28	lazybot	⇒ 42
10:28	martinklepsch	hah!
10:29	justin_smith	np
10:29	martinklepsch	I always saw people doing that, hope it's fine that I just did it :)
10:29	justin_smith	yeah, it's a meaningless number, but it's all good
10:32	mikerod	Non-dynamic vars still are deref'ed every time they are accessed (as long as their value is not inlined) correct?
10:32	mikerod	So I write: (defn my-test [x] (some-other-fn x))
10:33	mikerod	And call: (my-test 5) ;= `some-other-fn` is deref'ed during evaluation right? This is true for the AOT-compiled version of this `my-test` fn as well right?
10:33	mikerod	I have done some digging and I believe this is accurate.
10:34	mikerod	And it also is the only way I could see something like `alter-var-root` or `with-redefs` to work to change the behavior of vars referenced in the BodyExpr of other fn's
10:34	Glenjamin	you are correct
10:36	agarman	it's a bit more subtle though
10:37	clgv	mikerod: correct but there is a slight problem if the first function was a primitive one (i.e. primitive long or double in its signature)
10:37	agarman	,(def name "world")
10:37	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.SecurityException: denied, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
10:37	clgv	,(def a 1)
10:37	clojurebot	#'sandbox/a
10:37	clgv	interesting
10:38	agarman	if you are in a repl and redefine a var as dynamic
10:38	Glenjamin	,(do (def a) (identical? a (deref (var a)))
10:38	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
10:38	agarman	any existing references to the var will continue to lookup the original var
10:39	agarman	that is, non-dynamic vars get cached
10:39	agarman	static vars get cached
10:39	agarman	dynamic vars do not
10:39	mikerod	Hmm, interesting.
10:40	mikerod	So a static var really shouldn't be attempted to be redefined in "production" code it would seem.
10:40	mikerod	Since it seems a bit risky on the scenarios where it may not be re-looked-up
10:41	mikerod	I have heard it is "bad practice", but I'm just trying to think if this relates to some reasons why.
10:41	agarman	you can re-point an existing var
10:42	agarman	you just can't put a new var the the same symbol in the namespace and expect to have occurring usages of that symbol to point to your new var...unless you're var started out as ^:dynamic
10:43	agarman	there is a nice clojure/west video that describes how all this works much better than I could in IRC :-)
10:44	mikerod	agarman: Yeah, that makes sense. I can dig for the video and see if I've watched it before. If it is pretty new, chances are I haven't.
10:45	agarman	I'll pass the link, just looking for it right now
10:45	agarman	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NUI07y1SlQ
10:46	agarman	https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=8NUI07y1SlQ#t=443
10:46	agarman	that's roughly where he starts talking about static vs dynamic
10:46	agarman	if you're impatient :-)
10:46	mikerod	hah, thanks for the insight.
10:47	agarman	yw
10:47	mikerod	This looks good and I haven't seen it before. I'll check it out.
10:52	martinklepsch	justin_smith, this nrepl server stuff gets me really excited
10:52	martinklepsch	makes me understand this whole "modify running programs" thing
10:53	justin_smith	martinklepsch: yeah, it is handy - I typically have a conditional block that starts up an nrepl server based on an env var in pretty much every top level project
10:54	martinklepsch	justin_smith, yeah, makes perfect sense
10:56	martinklepsch	that would pretty much be my main function I guess ;D
10:57	justin_smith	next step after that: once a function misbehaves in a way you don't understand, go into its namespace at runtime and (def debug (atom {})) and then add apropriate calls to (swap! debug assoc (java.util.Date.) ["description of place" some values at this place])
10:57	justin_smith	and then use your repl foo to investigate the values going on :)
11:05	AWizzArd	core.async: put! / take! vs. >! / <! — what are the differences?
11:06	AWizzArd	Is (put! my-chan 15) the same as (go (>! my-chan 15))?
11:06	teslanick	put! and take! can be used outside goblocks
11:06	teslanick	And don't park
11:07	teslanick	note that take! takes a callback function to avoid parking for information.
11:08	AWizzArd	How can put! not park if there is nobody reading from the chan?
11:08	teslanick	It also takes a callback if you care about when something is removed from the channel
11:09	teslanick	put! and take! are (at least from the examples I've seen) used on the edges of your core.async machine in parts of your system that need to operate asynchronously
11:10	teslanick	Note that if you want to park, you can use >!! and <!! outside a goblock. Probably not a good idea, but...
11:10	AWizzArd	I’m not sure if it is otherwise equivalent to (go (>! my-chan 15)).
11:11	teslanick	put! and (go (>! ...)) aren't equivalent. They do different things, which is why they have different names/idioms. ;)
11:12	ttallman	quit
11:38	technomancy	I ... uh http://i.imgur.com/zfqbtYL.png
11:38	agarman	lmao
11:42	clgv	awesome :P
11:42	bbloom	heh
11:50	tbaldridge	I actually heard someone use an argument once that "OOP may be more verbose than FP, but if all programmers moved to FP, then we'd have an overpopulation software engineers, and I'd have to fight harder for a job".
11:52	teslanick	Because less code would need to be written to solve the same problems?
11:53	Glenjamin	i'm not sure that's possible
11:54	Glenjamin	the overpopulation bit
11:54	Glenjamin	we'd just make more things
11:54	tbaldridge	agreed. but I pretty much gave up at that part of the argument.
12:01	technomancy	there's actually a really interesting paradox around that
12:01	technomancy	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox
12:01	technomancy	tbaldridge: next time you see him, you can point him to wikipedia and 19th-century coal consumption
12:02	Glenjamin	seems to apply to computer gui apps too
12:03	joegallo	ugh, it's the old "if everyone has fast-pass/ez-pass, then the traffic will be on the streets rather than at the toll lanes" argument
12:03	joegallo	barf
12:05	bbloom	technomancy: that's an interesting article. thanks
12:06	joegallo	now if you'll excuse me, i'm going to go stimulate the economy by burning down a bunch of buildings
12:07	hiredman	maybe start a few wars
12:07	mikerod	I launch the REPL with some AOT-compiled clj record types on the classpath. When attempt to reload this record, I am able to create new instances of the same class that are loaded with a DynamicClassLoader. However, when I do (.getClassLoader some.class.Name) in the REPL, it is still resolving to the original class loaded on the AppClassLoader.
12:08	mikerod	*by "same class" I meant the redefinition of the same class name.
12:09	bbloom	tis same sort of stupid broken thinking is what causes massively successful companies to fail to innovate
12:09	mikerod	The consequence of this is that in my REPL, I construct (new some.class.Name) and (some.class/->Name) and get instances of 2 different classes.
12:10	bbloom	they hold on to their initial successes and think the world won't change around them, assuming that b/c their inventions produced wealth in the past, that they will always be their primary sources of wealth... which becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy by being their ONLY source of wealth
12:11	technomancy	bbloom: yeah, I figure Jevon's paradox is also relevant to code.org naysayers
12:11	bbloom	technomancy: very.
12:11	cbp	java.lang.ThreadDeath
12:12	bbloom	cbp: argh. i hate that ThreadDeath exception
12:12	cbp	such description, very understandable
12:12	bbloom	if you catch Throwable, you actually need to remember to RETHROW ThreadDeath, otherwise you may never get out of an infinite loop
12:13	cbp	=/
12:13	mikerod	tbaldridge: that argument made me laugh; but in a bad way
12:15	tbaldridge	I think the world would be a better place if everyone knew at least some coding. And no, we wouldn't have a problem with demand, because just like some people who write hate writing (me), we'd have people who knew how to code, but don't understand enough theory to do it as a profession.
12:15	tbaldridge	That is to say, anyone can code, but learning how to apply it properly takes time, like any profession.
12:17	mikerod	tbaldridge: agreed
12:18	angusiguess	@tbaldridge I guess one part of it is people's expectation that it be professional. Something not shared with, say, musical or artistic aptitude.
12:22	mikerod	So, does anyone know why the REPL doesn't eval Class literals as the newest definition of dynamically loaded types when the class was loaded initially by the AppClassLoader?
12:22	mikerod	To re-phrase my questions/observation on this.
12:22	borkdude	is it possible to find usages of a function in cider?
12:25	Bronsa	mikerod: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-979 probably related
12:27	mikerod	Bronsa: nice, this does seem to be on-topic
12:27	mikerod	thanks!
12:27	mikerod	It's a bit annoying. I just noticed it because I get test failures from reloading the defrecord
12:28	mikerod	because of an instance? check failing after that, but it is in the same ns as the defrecord, so I was expecting them to stay in sync.
12:28	mikerod	Fun
12:29	seangrove	I wonder how much bootstrapped cljs would help people get on the cljs wagon
12:30	Bronsa	mikerod: me & ambrosebs looked into this a bit a while ago while he was porting core.typed to tools.analyzer
12:30	bbloom	seangrove: probably not at all... why do you think it would?
12:30	bhauman	seangrove: do you have something particular in mind?
12:30	Bronsa	mikerod: another relevant ticket is probably http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-371 which unfortunately got declined
12:31	mikerod	Bronsa: cool, it is all making sense now
12:32	Glenjamin	so the general theme seems to be you can AOT, or repl - but not really both
12:32	Bronsa	Glenjamin: yeah
12:32	mikerod	AOT is full of surprises
12:32	Glenjamin	which means you can't patch a protocol definition in a live app
12:32	seangrove	bbloom: A node.js developer is going to be pretty unnerved by the amount of jvm tooling to get start with cljs
12:33	seangrove	bbloom: Just removing that initial barrier, making it easier to get up and running
12:33	cbp	Is it possible to have a cljs repl when opening a file:// from a browser?
12:33	Glenjamin	jvm peeps probably underestimate how foreign all the jvm stuff is if you don't have a java background
12:33	nullptr	seangrove: as is a jquery developer
12:33	cbp	I mean I guess I know it's possible since Lighttable does it but is it possible with austin?
12:34	bbloom	seangrove: meanwhile, node.js requires a lot of C++ tooling to get started.... this is a presentation/readme problem and maybe automation problem, not a justification for self-hosting
12:34	nullptr	i'm very savvy with jvm stuff, have a reasonable amount of clojure experience, and am an expert in g closure, and i still found getting started with cljs maddening
12:34	Glenjamin	bbloom: not to run the JS
12:34	bbloom	... and this is coming from a guy wants that :-P
12:34	Glenjamin	it's a single binary
12:35	bbloom	Glenjamin: not if you actually want to do anything useful it isn't... you also need the package manager: npm
12:35	seangrove	bbloom: Not a justification, of course not. Just a nice side-effect that it becomes far more portable for other envs
12:35	Glenjamin	ok, 2 binaries
12:35	bbloom	Glenjamin: bottom line: you need an installer
12:35	Glenjamin	there's not that many libs that need to c++ build
12:35	bbloom	what it installs is moot
12:35	seangrove	I know almost nothing about node.js personally, and I'm frustrated that I have to use npm sometimes
12:35	bbloom	npm is atrocious
12:35	expez	seangrove: any plans on adding a bit more documentation to your om-draggable component, it wasn't as easy as I'd hoped to put it to use.
12:35	Glenjamin	npm is the best :(
12:35	bbloom	Glenjamin: no, it really isn't
12:35	cbp	but npm solved dependency management
12:36	bbloom	lol
12:36	Glenjamin	no dependncy conflicts is great
12:36	seangrove	But it's the same frustration that node devs would experience on the cljs side. If you gave them the foundation, they'd hack cljs up in their own npm way and run with it
12:36	seangrove	expez: No, I'll probably just remove it. Been working on a much more all-encompassing approach to this stuff
12:36	expez	seangrove: aight, good to know!
12:36	seangrove	expez: I could probably change it a bit though so normal Om apps could use it, on reflection
12:36	Glenjamin	bbloom: what problems do you have with npm? i've generally found using it to be great
12:37	cbp	Is there a tool thingy that takes an html file as input and serves it through whatever web server?
12:37	stompyj	Glenjamin: it’s always[0] down and/slow [0] always meaning at least 2x a month
12:38	stompyj	and when you’re pushing to production 10x a day
12:38	stompyj	and deploys hang and/or outright fail
12:38	Glenjamin	then you use a caching proxy :s
12:38	Glenjamin	don't rely on a free external service for production deploys :)
12:38	Glenjamin	i got the impression bbloom had issues with the tool itself
12:38	stompyj	the fact it could have learned from rubygems.org and bundler
12:38	bbloom	even ignoring the downtime, i've had massive problems actually using it
12:38	Glenjamin	i assume people deploying clojure a lot use nexus instead of maven central
12:39	stompyj	and seemingly didn’t, isn’t encouraging
12:39	stompyj	oh, i’ve had tons of issues with it as well
12:39	bbloom	the node_modules thing is attrocious. there is nothing like bundler's lock files, which is also a complaint i have about lein
12:39	stompyj	one of my devs couldn’t create an account for weeks
12:39	stompyj	with no error returned
12:39	Glenjamin	bbloom: `npm shrinkwrap` does exactly what lock files do
12:40	Glenjamin	the local node_modules thing is my favourite bit :s
12:40	bbloom	Glenjamin: never head of shrinkwrap, looks like it isn't standard
12:40	Glenjamin	it's in the core package, but doesn't run unless you ask it to
12:41	bbloom	the package.json format, being json, can't have comments in it... which is insane
12:41	technomancy	bbloom: aren't lockfiles just there to work around the fact that everyone uses version ranges in bundler?
12:41	bbloom	technomancy: i dunno. i don't like version numbers, i like sha1s
12:41	bbloom	i like refspecs
12:41	technomancy	what's a refspec?
12:41	bbloom	https://www.kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/gitrevisions.html
12:41	technomancy	oh, sure
12:41	bbloom	see my rant on semver: http://www.brandonbloom.name/blog/2013/06/19/semver/
12:41	Glenjamin	not having comments i can see, but it's more of a manifest rather than a config file - there shouldn't really be anything complex in there
12:42	bbloom	Glenjamin: it doesn't need to be complex to say "TODO: remove this dep"
12:42	technomancy	bbloom: are you ranting about publishers who use semver or people/tools who assume others use semver?
12:42	Glenjamin	i can see that
12:42	bbloom	technomancy: tools that assume semver
12:43	technomancy	right
12:43	Glenjamin	although echo "TODO: remove dep x" >> README.md is roughly as useful
12:43	bbloom	the node_modules directory is terrible b/c it confuses every damn tool i have... i have to add ignore rules to so many configs
12:43	technomancy	bbloom: version numbers are like ^:private imo; they contribute intent, but relying on their mechanism is madness.
12:43	bbloom	technomancy: indeed
12:43	technomancy	s/contribute/communicate/
12:44	Glenjamin	my personal approach is ranges for libs that trust/assume semver - but lock down numbers in applications and check it works
12:44	technomancy	seems silly to be "against semver" for that reason though
12:44	martinklepsch	just trying to setup that repl server I found the following to launch it in main: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure/wWunRvmX5Co — but I wonder why that let binding & Thread/sleep is used?
12:46	bbloom	technomancy: you'll see my rant is balanced :-P
12:46	stompyj	Glenjamin: although, in all seriousness, “don’t like the package manager endorsed by the language? then don’t use it!” is a very dangerous stance for a community to take
12:46	technomancy	bbloom: I can see it there because I know what I'm looking for, but I think it would be easy to miss
12:46	stompyj	especially when go exists
12:47	Glenjamin	stompyj: i don't follow? if you don't like rubygems, you probably should use ruby
12:47	Glenjamin	etc
12:49	stompyj	In general, the JS/node community has had flippant responses to real concerns by people trying to use the technology stack
12:49	stompyj	the net result of that is going to be an exodus to Go, or a similar language
12:49	bbloom	i also generally hate tools that have interactive defaults & no obvious master flag for "I AM SCRIPTING THIS THING"
12:50	Glenjamin	go's dependency management story appears to be "you always get master, better hope no-one breaks you"
12:50	justin_smith	martinklepsch: I think the sleep is just for keeping the process going
12:50	technomancy	Glenjamin: no one would ever do such a horrible thing as break backwards-compatibility
12:50	Glenjamin	"If a library creator doesn't have the discipline to follow proper release practices and the idioms in the Go community, I think it can be argued that you probably don't want to be using their code in production either."
12:50	bbloom	yeah, which is why go-get is terrible, by why go is awesome for big company wide code bases (which i'm not a believer in, but understand it)
12:50	Glenjamin	thats a quote from the go community
12:50	justin_smith	martinklepsch: the let block is likely the trace of an incomplete refactoring
12:51	technomancy	Glenjamin: http://p.hagelb.org/oh-yeah.gif
12:51	technomancy	high-larious
12:51	Glenjamin	anyway, dependency management is hard
12:51	martinklepsch	justin_smith, would you mind pasting me some code how you did that?
12:51	justin_smith	martinklepsch: I think both can be eliminated, since the l in repl is for loop
12:51	technomancy	Glenjamin: "Life is hard. But it's a lot harder if you're stupid."
12:51	Glenjamin	heh
12:51	technomancy	I forget who said that.
12:51	martinklepsch	justin_smith, I tried it earlier without the sleep and I think it didn't work
12:52	justin_smith	(start-server :port 42042) should suffice - though you can add the sleep if it is exiting too soon on you
12:52	justin_smith	or a while loop that sleeps etc.
12:52	martinklepsch	deploying an uberjar is very cool btw :)
12:52	justin_smith	martinklepsch: yeah, definitely the RIGHT WAY™
12:53	technomancy	bbloom: because at a company you can literally beat a path down to the offender's cubicle with pitchforks and torches?
12:53	martinklepsch	justin_smith, it's so crazy simple... I'm coming from ruby/rails and that's quite different :D
12:53	Glenjamin	are uberjars always AOTed, will you run into the dynamic reload of Record issue described above?
12:54	technomancy	Glenjamin: you can use uberjars without AOT
12:54	Glenjamin	ah neat
12:54	technomancy	you just have to use clojure.main as your entry point
12:54	justin_smith	martinklepsch: yeah... their deployment story is crazy - but look how many startups it created :P
12:54	technomancy	I don't know that I'd recommend it though; afaik the pitfalls of AOT don't apply in production
12:55	Glenjamin	unless you want to mess around in a repl on production i guess
12:55	technomancy	justin_smith: /me whistles innocently
12:55	Glenjamin	unsure if i do yet :)
12:55	justin_smith	martinklepsch: it is harder to make a business model out of "send us a jar and we will execute it"
12:55	technomancy	Glenjamin: true, you do have to be more careful with a repl
12:55	martinklepsch	justin_smith, looks like my previous try was just fine :)
12:57	rasmusto	just made this typo: lein eastwoord
12:57	justin_smith	haha, sounds dutch
12:58	rasmusto	was thinking of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_antwoord maybe
12:58	rasmusto	dunno why I'd have muscle memory for that
12:58	justin_smith	or like an insane white south african hiphop performance art project
12:58	justin_smith	jynx
12:58	rasmusto	,(range 10)
12:58	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4 ...)
12:58	bbloom	technomancy: if you "always ship master" and have a giant perforce tree, then everything is effectively defacto vendored anyway
12:59	bbloom	technomancy: and also pitchforks + cubicles
13:00	technomancy	bbloom: pretty soon the pitchfork thing will be possible in the OSS world with drone attacks though
13:00	seangrove	Necks to throttle.
13:01	TimMc	to whom?
13:01	rasmusto	seangrove: look in the mirror
13:01	seangrove	Wonderful mixing of third and first person there...
13:02	rasmusto	seangrove: jokes :)
13:02	seangrove	rasmusto: I need to delegate!
13:02	seangrove	Ordering food is easy, it's the last mile problem that hasn't been solved: take out box to mouth.
13:02	seangrove	But now we have... DroneForks!
13:02	rasmusto	I always picture that wallace and grommit morning routine
13:03	rasmusto	machine thing
13:07	martinklepsch	justin_smith, how do you access this nrepl in your prod env then? do you use ssh tunneling?
13:07	martinklepsch	(sorry if you mentioned that earlier)
13:08	justin_smith	martinklepsch: yeah, but usually I don't end up needing a repl in prod
13:09	martinklepsch	justin_smith, currently my whole programm does nothing on it's own (which is intended) so having a repl seems like the best way to control that remotely
13:10	technomancy	martinklepsch: you could use something like xmpp too if you want easier control from a mobile
13:10	technomancy	that's what I do with the bot in my lab
13:10	martinklepsch	technomancy, that sounds pretty cool but also a lot more complex
13:11	martinklepsch	technomancy, what do you send via xmpp then actually?
13:11	technomancy	martinklepsch: yeah, it means you have to decide up front which commands you want to expose over chat
13:11	technomancy	in my case it's just temperature querying and setting
13:12	technomancy	(also this is erlang rather than clojure, but whatever)
13:12	martinklepsch	technomancy yeah ok, thought so
13:12	technomancy	martinklepsch: actually... you could easily do a full repl over xmpp
13:12	technomancy	or you could do a repl that's restricted to only call functions in a given namespace
13:13	justin_smith	oh yeah, xmpp has the security layer taken care of
13:13	technomancy	https://github.com/technomancy/mire/blob/master/src/mire/commands.clj <- this does something like that
13:13	justin_smith	is there an easy xmpp lib for clojure?
13:14	martinklepsch	I'm fine with the repl and tunneling
13:15	martinklepsch	although I'm having trouble fguring out how to map a port on a remote machine that only listens on localhost to a local port on my machine :/
13:15	justin_smith	ssh -L handles that pretty easily
13:18	justin_smith	ssh -L local-port:127.0.0.1:remote-port <host>
13:18	martinklepsch	justin_smith, yeah I have something like this but doesn't seem to access the port through localhost on the remote machine: ssh -L root@host -L 4242:host:42042 -N
13:18	justin_smith	no, 127.0.0.1
13:18	justin_smith	is manditory - means local
13:19	justin_smith	host means treat it as a remote access, which is denied which is the reason for the tunnel
13:19	martinklepsch	ah !
13:19	martinklepsch	thank you!
13:19	martinklepsch	works now
13:19	justin_smith	I guess you can also specify localhost instead of 127.0.0.1 but 127.0.0.1 may work in some circumstances where the host is misconfigured
13:20	martinklepsch	justin_smith, yeah was thinking in that direction just wasn't aware that I can put in 127.0.0.1 in that place
13:21	martinklepsch	justin_smith, you've helped me tons today! thanks so much!
13:22	justin_smith	np
13:25	martinklepsch	sometimes when I run java -jar my-thing.jar I can't cancel it with ctrl-c anymore, anyone an idea why that is?
13:26	justin_smith	martinklepsch: are you running agents? are you catching Throwable?
13:26	justin_smith	anyway, kill -9 is the brutal way, which almost always works
13:27	martinklepsch	yeah, having some (catch) statements in there
13:27	martinklepsch	justin_smith, yeah that was what I did the first time. just wondered why that sometimes happens and sometimes not
13:27	justin_smith	if your catch is Throwable, you should rethrow if you get the interrupt signal
13:32	martinklepsch	cheers everyone for being so incredibly helpful today! you made my day (really!) have a good day/evening!
13:45	guns	ambrosebs: I was able to build that Closeable linter with tools.analyzer; it was just as easy as you said. thanks again for the tip
13:45	ambrosebs	guns: very nice
13:56	nillkill	hmm is there an easy way to load a var from a .clj file and get the name of the var? So something like (load-file https://github.com/Parsely/streamparse/blob/master/streamparse/bootstrap/project/topologies/wordcount.clj) then pull the name of the var (“wordcount” in this case) as well as the evaluated form?
13:57	nillkill	or a better question perhaps, should we be doing this w/ something other than (var-get (load-file …))
14:00	nillkill	i was hoping I could get (:name (meta (var-get (load-file …)))) but that doesn’t seem to work
14:04	Glenjamin	nillkill: are you expecting the var to be the last form in the loaded file?
14:05	nillkill	yeah, should only ever be one var in the file. looks like (meta (load-file “file..clj”)) will work
14:05	Glenjamin	i feel like that should work if you leave out the var-get
14:05	Glenjamin	yeah
14:07	technomancy	http://www.clojure.tn/images/stk-trc.png <- whoa, is this what you get with cider out of the box now?
14:07	ucb	technomancy: yes
14:07	hiredman	:(
14:07	ucb	technomancy: latest which is 0.7.0-alpha I believe
14:07	hiredman	hiding frames
14:07	technomancy	fancy ultra fresh
14:07	mstang	Best Java decompiler?
14:08	technomancy	I assume those are hyperlinks?
14:08	nillkill	Glenjamin: how would I still evaluate that var after the load-file?
14:08	nillkill	i guess do a get-var later on
14:08	Glenjamin	if you have name and ns, you should be able to fish it back out
14:09	Glenjamin	or (let [var (load-file)] { :name (:name (meta var)) :var var })
14:09	Glenjamin	something like that
14:09	ucb	technomancy: which ones? the headings? Yes, they hide/show different sections of the stacktrace
14:11	technomancy	ucb: yay, interactivity.
14:11	stompyj	checking out that new podcast that dnolen_ did, dude is a beast
14:11	ucb	technomancy: yayayayayaya indeed
14:11	technomancy	ucb: do you know if that's happening server-side or client-side?
14:12	ucb	technomancy: I haven't a clue. I'm just a user :)
14:12	mstang	stompyj: was that the interview or does he have something new?
14:13	stompyj	mstang: the interview at javascript jabber
14:13	mstang	stompyj: I am about 1/3 of the way through, he is a beast!
14:15	stompyj	the best part about the clojure community is the ability with which the stewards of different parts of the ecosystem can articulate why X thing is important
14:15	stompyj	feels like the early rails days
14:18	SegFaultAX	What would you call group-by where the keying function returns multiple groups for a given element?
14:18	SegFaultAX	group-many is the best I can do.
14:19	teslanick	'categorize' ?
14:21	SegFaultAX	teslanick: I like it! Thanks.
14:26	amalloy	SegFaultAX: i'm curious what your implementation of that looks like. seems like there are a number of plausible approaches
14:28	SegFaultAX	amalloy: I can show you the sauce if you want.
14:28	SegFaultAX	amalloy: https://gist.github.com/SegFaultAX/3f2657c6c338691d812c (Python)
14:29	amalloy	ah. i just sketched it out in clojure, SegFaultAX: https://www.refheap.com/649f9d50c4f7df0bd835dd7ca
14:33	teslanick	til about fnil
14:33	nullptr	,(doc fnil)
14:33	clojurebot	"([f x] [f x y] [f x y z]); Takes a function f, and returns a function that calls f, replacing a nil first argument to f with the supplied value x. Higher arity versions can replace arguments in the second and third positions (y, z). Note that the function f can take any number of arguments, not just the one(s) being nil-patched."
14:34	teslanick	So (fnil conj []) returns a version of conj that will use an empty vector if the first argument to it is nil.
14:35	Frozenlock	In compojure, do I need to specify a 'not-found' route everytime I use `context'?
14:36	amalloy	Frozenlock: i can't think why you would do so
14:37	Frozenlock	I ask because when I use (context "/some-url" ....), if a page doesn't exists under "/some-url/..." I just get a blank page. :-/
14:37	amalloy	Frozenlock: you want a single not-found route after all of your routes, probably
14:38	Frozenlock	amalloy: Yes, that's how things are for now. A single not-found route at the end of my app-routes
14:38	amalloy	(routes (context "/foo" ...) (context "/bar" ...) not-found)
14:38	amalloy	i don't think context surreptitiously inserts a blank page. if you're getting one, you put it there
14:39	Frozenlock	hmm...
14:40	dbasch	Frozenlock: what does the response look like? A blank page could mean many things
14:44	Frozenlock	dbasch: http 200
14:44	Glenjamin	anyone familiar with test.check who knows how i can run a (defspec) in isolation at the repl?
14:45	reiddraper	Glenjamin: run the test as a function: (test-ns/my-test)
14:45	Glenjamin	hah, d'oh
14:45	Glenjamin	thanks
14:45	reiddraper	np
14:46	Glenjamin	is there a neat way to feed a failure case back in to the body, without extracting to a function?
14:46	Glenjamin	my sequence is something like: check => fail, add-watch, run-once
14:47	reiddraper	Glenjamin: no way that i'm aware of, without extracting to a function
14:48	Glenjamin	ok, thanks
14:50	reiddraper	Glenjamin: i think you'll find that extracting it into a function is a good idea anyway
14:51	Glenjamin	mm, i started like that, but then folded them into the defspec as it was only 3 lines
14:52	Glenjamin	being able to do something like (check-case (:smallest result)) might be quite nice
14:57	Frozenlock	amalloy: You were right, I added a allow-cross-origin middleware and it was messing with the headers
15:00	roppongininja	Guys I'm really commited to JVM and I want to learn my first functional language - should I start with clojure or scala?
15:02	ystael	roppongininja: Learn enough of each to make an educated choice!
15:02	bbloom	roppongininja: yes.
15:02	bbloom	but you're in #clojure, so the answer should be clear
15:02	amalloy	roppongininja: you're asking here instead of in #scala. you know what you want in your heart of hearts
15:03	llasram	It might have been a loyalty test
15:03	bbloom	llasram: here we are only loyal to shit that works
15:03	technomancy	amalloy: he could be asking in both
15:03	dbasch	I agree that you should try both and decide for yourself
15:03	amalloy	technomancy: yeah, but i'm not in #scala so i think it probably doesn't exist
15:05	dbasch	having a mixed Scala / Java codebase is not fun, for example
15:05	technomancy	that said, the jvm seems like a weird thing to be committed to
15:05	technomancy	just kind of going forward assuming you'll never have requirements for low-memory or tight C integration
15:06	mstang	Scala seems a bit on the complicated side of things
15:06	mstang	I took a two day class ;-)
15:06	dbasch	technomancy: it depends on where you work. Some companies require that you give their devops a jar / war that they can toss into production, and they don’t care how it was created
15:07	technomancy	dbasch: sure, if you've decided to specialize solely in long-running server software
15:07	roppongininja	dbasch: I don't need to learn this for work (maybe for a future one) I just want to try functional programming by writing a simple bitcoin trading bot :)
15:07	roppongininja	dbasch: I dont care how long it takes its just for fun
15:08	technomancy	dbasch: it makes more sense for a company to be committed to a platform than for an individual, anyway
15:08	bbloom	roppongininja: if you just want to learn, and you've never done a lisp before, clojure will be a bigger and more rewarding learning experience
15:08	roppongininja	technomancy: I've never done any other programming than Java/c/python/js
15:08	roppongininja	and c#
15:08	technomancy	and loyalty to a company is pretty old-fashioned these days
15:09	roppongininja	so I've never done any functional programming
15:09	dbasch	roppongininja: in Scala you always have the temptation to code as if it were Java, you have to be more disciplined to stay functional
15:09	dbasch	Scala is an easier sell to organizations where most developers have a Java background for that reason
15:10	roppongininja	dbasch: I know that scala is better when looking for a job but I'm not looking for a new one
15:10	bbloom	dbasch: s/Scala //
15:12	dbasch	bbloom: ok, atrocious in a very specific way :P
15:12	bbloom	dbasch: that's for sure
15:12	dbasch	e.g. people transforming a collection by iterating over every item and copying the result of a function into a new collection
15:13	fowlslegs	What is the correct syntax for recur when I want to assign the value of one var to another. Say I have (loop [x 1 y 2] (if (= x 2) [x y] (let [u 4] (recur (inc x) (y u)))))
15:13	cbp`	why can't cljs get a repl to a browser-opened html file?
15:13	fowlslegs	Except the (y u) is incorrect syntax. What if I want 4 bound to y for the next loop?
15:14	amalloy	just...(recur (inc x) 4)
15:14	amalloy	you just put values there. no names
15:14	fowlslegs	purrrfect
15:14	bbloom	cbp: has to do with same domain policy
15:14	dbasch	roppongininja: a bitcoin trading bot in clojure would be a fun project
15:14	roppongininja	are there any beginners here?
15:14	amalloy	yes
15:15	roppongininja	I don't know anything about clojure but if someone's a total no-life like me we could team up and write a free open source btc trading bot:)
15:16	roppongininja	I guess that if you want to learn that's the fastest way - learning by doing :)
15:16	dbasch	roppongininja: I don’t know about #scala, but if you start something and share your code here you’ll get tons of good feedback
15:19	nullptr	roppongininja: you can get from a->b down either path, but i do think you'll have more fun with clojure
15:21	roppongininja	Should I use emacs for clojure? I've been a intellij idea user so far
15:21	nullptr	have you used emacs before?
15:22	nullptr	it's a nice clojure environment, but the learning curve is, well ... http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/i/emacs_learning_curves.png
15:22	roppongininja	nullptr: yes for a max of 24h total, so I know close to nothing about it, I've been using vim for a long time though
15:22	roppongininja	nullptr: I know that picture
15:22	bbloom	~fireplace
15:22	clojurebot	Huh?
15:23	nullptr	https://github.com/tpope/vim-fireplace
15:23	bbloom	clojurebot: fireplace is github.com/tpope/vim-fireplace
15:23	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
15:24	dbasch	roppongininja: by now there are some decent choices besides emacs, including LightTable and Cursive (IntelliJ)
15:24	roppongininja	dbasch: and which one are you using
15:24	dbasch	roppongininja: I use Emacs personally
15:25	technomancy	roppongininja: don't learn emacs and clojure at the same time
15:25	zerokarmaleft	roppongininja: Cursive is quite capable
15:25	cbp	Once you go into the emacs rabbit hole you never come back
15:25	roppongininja	there's this thing called evil-mode
15:25	technomancy	emacs will be there waiting for you once you get decent at clojure
15:25	zerokarmaleft	evil-mode is terrible
15:25	bbloom	roppongininja: just use what you know
15:26	bbloom	and if you don't know anything else, just use light table, since it's so easy to get started
15:26	nullptr	i agree with bbloom, LT is a great low hassle startup env
15:27	nullptr	and as technomancy says, emacs will be there waiting for you ... probably even if you wait a couple of decades
15:27	cbp	you probably will only need lein repl for a good while anyway
15:27	roppongininja	Ok I will give LT a try then!
15:28	dbasch	roppongininja: btw, I’ve written some bits of bitcoin-related code in clojure, let me know when you have specific questions
15:28	kenrestivo	Raynes: would it be an abuse of irclj to use it as a gateway from irc to another chat system, which i think would require multiple connections from ircj (one for each user on the other system)?
15:29	Glenjamin	i've been fairly happy with the latest LT - it now seems to have most of the "proper editor" bits
15:30	roppongininja	dbasch: do you mind adding me on skype?
15:30	dbasch	roppongininja: I don’t use skype much, but you can mention me here or on Twitter (same handle)
15:31	mstang_	LT isn't a great editor, but I like it's interactivity better than Emacs or Vim
15:31	roppongininja	mstang_: I've got sublime text 2 by the way is that any good
15:32	roppongininja	or shall I ask is it better than LT
15:32	mstang_	roppongininja:I have heard that people like it, the nice thing about LT is that you can edit, CTRL-ENTER and see the result inline
15:33	mstang_	Cursive is looking interesting, haven't tried it yet
15:35	mstang_	roppongininja: I don't think sublime is as interactive from what I have heard, never used it
15:35	{blake}	LT's not bad. The inline has some use but limited (to me so far).
15:35	mstang_	roppongininja: If I have some fancy editing, I open Vim or gedit depending on what kind of editing...
15:36	mstang_	roppongininja: but then I go back to LT
15:36	SegFaultAX	amalloy: Reasonable implementation?
15:36	SegFaultAX	amalloy: I don't really know how much python you do. :D
15:36	SegFaultAX	But you get the idea, right?
15:36	mstang_	roppongininja: btw, I keep the Emacs cheat sheet open on my desk ;-)
15:38	Glenjamin	the watch feature in LT is quite neat
15:39	nullptr	Glenjamin: is that like cider-tracing?
15:39	Glenjamin	highlight form, add watch, see values passing through on eval?
15:44	amalloy	SegFaultAX: i don't do any python. implementation seems fine, although the problem is pretty bland if you can just mutate things
15:45	amalloy	i wouldn't have created the variable `keys` at all: just write `for key in fn(e): ...`
15:48	amalloy	you can also use setdefault instead of get, to simulate fnil and remove some more nonsense
15:48	amalloy	ie, replace lines 8-10 with acc.setdefault(key, []).append(e)
15:49	Glenjamin	setdefault is a weird function
15:51	amalloy	what. is gist broken? when i click the Fork button on SegFaultAX's gist, i get a 422 Unprocessable Entity
15:51	dinduks	Hi folks. Can some please share some piece of code that shows how are operations on collections usually nested in Clojure? It's hard to find this with a search engine.
15:52	amalloy	"The change you wanted was rejected. Maybe you tried to change something you didn't have access to."
15:52	Glenjamin	amalloy: works for me :s
15:52	Glenjamin	dinduks: what do you mean by nested?
15:52	tbaldridge	dinduks: operations are nested?
15:53	dinduks	Glenjamin: like a map on a filter on another map, etc.
15:53	tbaldridge	(->> [1 2 3] (map inc) (filter pos?) (filter even?) (map dec))
15:53	Bronsa	gist
15:53	Glenjamin	generally you just nest them, you can improve readability with intermediary variables using let, or via ->>
15:53	tbaldridge	, (->> [1 2 3] (map inc) (filter pos?) (filter even?) (map dec))
15:53	clojurebot	(1 3)
15:54	dinduks	How is "->>" called, so I can search it? :)
15:54	Glenjamin	threading macro
15:54	dinduks	Cool thanks.
15:55	dinduks	I thought about using many `let` but then I wondered if it was a good idea to have 10 let that are simple temp variables
15:55	amalloy	i always call it the Arrow of Awesome
15:55	dbasch	dinduks: technically it’s thread-last, there’s also -> or thread-first http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/-%3E%3E
15:56	amalloy	dbasch: "technically" it's ->>. thread-last and thread-first are two colloquial names that some people use
15:56	dbasch	amalloy: I mean as opposed to threading macro
15:57	dbasch	no nitpicking, just trying to clear the confusion because dinduks would encounter -> when searching for threading macro
15:57	Glenjamin	some subjective combination of nesting, threading and let usually produces something readable
15:57	amalloy	but how sad would he be to find information on ->? not sad at all
15:59	dinduks	:)
15:59	dinduks	Thanks everyone. I think ->> with some line breaks if my (fn …) are long will do the trick.
15:59	amalloy	sounds about right, Glenjamin
16:00	llasram	+ splitting into multiple functions
16:00	llasram	+ our fanatical devotion to the Pope
16:00	ystael	llasram: but everyone expects the threading macro
16:00	amalloy	llasram: nobody must know our secret nickname for rich hickey
16:01	llasram	heh
16:03	stompyj	If theres any “The State” fans here: HEEYYYYY, ITS A DA POPAAAA
16:25	Glenjamin	i seem to have a complete mental block here, i'm wanting to return a reverse lazy sequence from a java.util.ArrayList - but i can't seem to think what to use
16:25	Glenjamin	i assumed that lazy-seq was the right thing, but that doesn't fit at all
16:26	Glenjamin	oh wait, i think i got it
16:35	haywood	Om question. I have a nested component structure, think table -> row -> cell. The cell needs a bit of 'global state but it feels wrong to pass that down in a cursor when the components above don't need it at all
16:38	seancorfield	haywood: perhaps a better Q for the #clojurescript channel?
16:39	haywood	seancorfield: will do! thanks
16:40	microamp	curious, how often do you guys use loop/recur?
16:41	Glenjamin	probably too often
16:41	technomancy	microamp: very rarely
16:41	AimHere	When I can't think of a way of using 'reduce'
16:42	Glenjamin	i think the only one i didn't factor away was reducing a huge collection into two big collections
16:42	microamp	thanks, just got back to learning clojure again, tempted to use loop/recur probably more often than i should've
16:43	technomancy	microamp: it's usually a sign either 0) you're a schemer or 1) you haven't fully internalized the seq API
16:43	technomancy	or both!
16:43	amalloy	Glenjamin: that sounds like a group-by,not a loop/recur
16:44	amalloy	or a reduce in the worst case
16:44	microamp	technomancy: hah, coming from python background, i guess it's more like 1 :)
16:44	Glenjamin	~7 million records into two maps, one with ~1 mil the other with ~6 mil
16:44	clojurebot	excusez-moi
16:44	seancorfield	microamp: I have a handle of loop/recurs in tight code that manipulates text (it's horribly non-functional in style but it's fast!) but otherwise I hardly have any in about 20kloc
16:44	AimHere	I'm just wondering if a third option would be 2) or 10)
16:44	Glenjamin	even with reduce, i'd have to create something to hold the two intermediaries at each step
16:45	seancorfield	15 of them total in just over 20kloc... see, you made me go count them!
16:46	Glenjamin	two in this file :s
16:46	seancorfield	a few of those are in go loops
16:47	amalloy	Glenjamin: huh? the two intermediaries are held in the map you're reducing over
16:47	amalloy	i'm curious to see this process of splitting up a collection into two that you think requires loop/recur
16:47	Glenjamin	i end up with two distinct maps
16:48	Glenjamin	although i do ultimately return a map
16:48	Glenjamin	hrm, let me time it
16:48	Glenjamin	https://www.refheap.com/85264 is my other example
16:49	Glenjamin	amalloy: this is the splitting one - https://www.refheap.com/85265
16:51	amalloy	what is with all these transients?
16:51	Glenjamin	well a) it's a large collection and b) i'd just read up on transients when i started
16:52	amalloy	anyway, this is just a reduce over (result-set-seq rs)
16:52	Glenjamin	yes, but it's faster
16:52	Glenjamin	i did start with that
16:53	Glenjamin	i've changed a lot of other stuff since the last slow version, i should try the seq again though
16:54	amalloy	but, really, this isn't a terrible candidate for loop/recur. squeezing it into a reduce over a pair doesn't increase readability by much, and what you have isn't already a seq
16:58	dans	evening all - so i was thinking is there a name for a composition pattern as so: (defn comp-i-dont-know? [g h] (fn [inst val] (g inst (h val)))) I'm thinking of this as composing transformations over a value before it is passed for example to a java setter.
17:01	amalloy	doesn't ring any bells for me, dans
17:05	dans	hmm, thats cool was wondering whether I was just being thick amalloy - its pretty specific, I can't think of any general use cases for such a function - useful for setters as I said, as I tend to create lots of setters via composition etc when building up java interop layers.
17:05	amalloy	i don't really understand the comparison to setters
17:06	amalloy	is doto not suitable for this? doto and -> are often useful for interop
17:06	mercwithamouth	newb dev question. so i created a post route to collect data to be used in a function. i can see the post data in firebug...what would be a good way to see if it's actually touching my server code? I start the server from the repl...
17:06	dans	yes - but I like to have the power of the various map/data transformation options that are available if I generalise setters as functions
17:08	noonian	mercwithamouth: i usually write a simple ring middleware function that just prints the request and response to stdout
17:08	dans	so I use something like https://github.com/danstone/getteretta to create maps of getters setters I can then do some interesting things in my interop layers.
17:10	noonian	mercwithamouth: https://www.refheap.com/85266, then wrap your handler with that before passing it you run-jetty or w/e
17:10	mercwithamouth	noonian: hrmm... ehh hmm how can i about doing that when right now my posts are coming from client side only. i could see how that would be possible...i guess i should just add some persistence now
17:10	mercwithamouth	noonian: ok, taking a look
17:11	noonian	that will print out the data that the server receives in the request, and also what it will return to the client with the response
17:11	mercwithamouth	hmm even using the repl in light table?
17:12	noonian	yes, if you are running your server from within light table, it will print to the console so you may have to open light tables console in a tab (ctrl+space type console and the fuzzy search should find it)
17:12	mercwithamouth	ahh! gotcha!
17:12	mercwithamouth	ty!
17:13	noonian	np
17:13	Glenjamin	you can also do it with the "watch" feature
17:14	mercwithamouth	Glenjamin: watch? do tell...
17:14	Glenjamin	instead of the print statements, select the form and "add watch" - it's alt+w on my LT
17:15	Glenjamin	then the value will be displayed inline when you make a request
17:16	mercwithamouth	nice! ok i'll try that out...be back in a few
17:16	whodidthis	whoa, i also had no idea
17:38	mercwithamouth	hmm one issue... after (start-server) in a repl...when I try to call anything on the next line it just starts opening up new tabs like crazy going to my server
17:38	mercwithamouth	is this avoidable?
17:42	mercwithamouth	ahh oops...dur
17:43	mercwithamouth	cuts live off -_-
17:44	PigDude	if you ever wanted to know how clojure prints dates, you didn't :P
17:45	PigDude	but long story short it's simpler to parse the string out of `pr-str' than to try to do this any other way, as far as i can tell
17:46	amalloy	PigDude: simpledateformat in java is a hassle to deal with, but flexible enough to do whatever you need
17:47	amalloy	&(.format (java.text.SimpleDateFormat. "kk:mm:ss") (java.util.Date.))
17:47	lazybot	⇒ "14:44:40"
17:49	mordocai	amalloy: If there isn't a wrapper/native way to do that, there should be...
17:49	justin_smith	PigDude: clj-time helps a lot
17:50	amalloy	mordocai: that's silly. if things in java work, there's no need for a wrapper in them in clojure.core
17:50	justin_smith	the native java time code has issues, joda-time (which clj-time wraps) improves
17:50	nullptr	(inc clj-time)
17:50	lazybot	⇒ 1
17:50	amalloy	as justin_smith says, the native java time stuff is pretty garbage, but wrapping garbage just gets you wrapped garbage
17:51	mordocai	amalloy: I don't know, right now I'm very new to clojure (about 1/7th through "The Joy of Clojure" as my intro) but I am all for abstracting away java as much as possible. My attitude may change.
17:52	noonian	wrapped gargabe doesn't stink as much :P having said that, clj-time is the way to go
17:53	justin_smith	mordocai: given that by using interop you can already be more concise than native java would be, and lose very little functionality, you'll be happier just learning how to do interop and being comfortable with it. It's good to fight library bloat where you can anyway.
17:57	PigDude	justin_smith: yea, but this is for the glue between clj-time :_)
18:00	justin_smith	PigDude: ahh, I had remembered clj-time having its own formatters
18:02	noonian	it does iirc
18:22	martinklepsch	with an ns statement like this I'm getting "No value supplied for key: true": https://www.refheap.com/85271
18:22	martinklepsch	if I remove the lighttable.nrepl part it just works fine
18:22	amalloy	martinklepsch: (:gen-class :main true) doesn't make any sense to me. don't you just want (:gen-class)?
18:23	martinklepsch	amalloy, hm good question. I probably just copied that from somewhere else ô.O
18:24	martinklepsch	funnily that doesn't change anything
18:25	martinklepsch	ah, wait a sec
18:26	amalloy	oh, your require is wrong
18:26	martinklepsch	omg, that was stupid
18:26	martinklepsch	:D
18:26	martinklepsch	should probably go to bed
18:29	Glenjamin	this may be a dumb question - but would RandomAccess & List be considered sufficient to implement clojure.lang.Reversible?
18:30	Glenjamin	i noticed that seq works on ArrayList, but rseq does not
18:32	amalloy	Glenjamin: yes, but that's an uncommon enough use case that it's not really exciting to put into core
18:33	Glenjamin	would it be considered better practice for me to extend the protocol in my application, or just implement arraylist-rseq?
18:33	amalloy	and like, you can write it yourself: (defn list-rseq [xs] (let [n (count xs)] (for [i (range n)] (nth xs (- n i 1)))))
18:33	Glenjamin	in fact, this is a library, so it would have to be the latter
18:33	amalloy	it's not a protocol, so you can't do that; but if you could you shouldn't anyway
18:34	Glenjamin	i've done a lazy version with recursive and lazy-seq, but basically the same thing
18:35	Glenjamin	unless for is lazy? that'd be far neater
18:35	amalloy	of course for is lazy
18:35	Glenjamin	whoops
18:35	Glenjamin	thats so much neater than what i had
18:36	Glenjamin	doall is the non-lazy for, so ofc for is lazy
18:36	amalloy	s/doall/doseq
18:36	Glenjamin	erm
18:36	Glenjamin	yes
18:36	Glenjamin	so obvious now
18:36	amalloy	you could also use List/listIterator, and ListIterator/prev to walk backwards over the list
18:36	amalloy	insetad of using nth
18:37	Glenjamin	i had .get, no idea what the differences are really :)
18:37	amalloy	eh, nth goes through some dispatching logic in c.l.RT and then calls .get
18:38	Glenjamin	i suppose the iterator enforces the blow-up-if-mutated constraint
18:39	amalloy	&(let [a (java.util.ArrayList. '(a b c d e)), iter (.listIterator a (count a))] ((fn step [] (lazy-seq (when (.hasPrevious iter) (cons (.previous iter) (step)))))))
18:39	lazybot	⇒ (e d c b a)
18:40	kil3n	hey
18:41	kil3n	anyone using emacs-live vanilla setup?
18:41	Glenjamin	oh, now we've swapped
18:42	justin_smith	kil3n: there are many emacs users here, we may be able to answer a question even if we aren't using the emacs-live setup
18:42	Glenjamin	(defn arraylist-rseq [al] (let [n (count al) it (.listIterator al n)] (for [i (range n)] (.previous it))))
18:42	Glenjamin	&((fn [al] (let [n (count al) it (.listIterator al n)] (for [i (range n)] (.previous it)))) java.util.ArrayList. '(a b c d e))
18:42	lazybot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: java.util.ArrayList.
18:43	kil3n	justin_smith: thanks, it’s just that I can’t seem to make changing the font size stick, it auto-resets after a second on startup (when “zoning…” is done or something)
18:43	kil3n	setting the new font size in live-packs
18:43	Glenjamin	&((fn [al] (let [n (count al) it (.listIterator al n)] (for [i (range n)] (.previous it)))) (java.util.ArrayList. '(a b c d e)))
18:43	lazybot	⇒ (e d c b a)
18:44	justin_smith	kil3n: what method are you using to set the font? is it actually saving it for future sessions via customize?
18:44	amalloy	urgh. you shouldn't really use the side-effecting .previous inside a for-loop
18:44	amalloy	i can't think of any way it could go wrong here, but it makes me queasy
18:45	kil3n	justin_smith: in `init.el` in my live-packs folder
18:45	kil3n	`(set-face-attribute 'default nil :font "Menlo 15")`
18:45	justin_smith	kil3n: try m-x customize-group basic-faces and check out what is under the Default face: entry
18:45	Glenjamin	is it particularly different from a side-effecting lazy-seq?
18:45	kil3n	justin_smith: checking…
18:46	kil3n	justin_smith:
18:46	amalloy	well, Glenjamin, chunked sequences make it a bit different
18:46	kil3n	justin_smith: state: STANDARD, “inherit”: INS DEL Face: (sample)
18:47	amalloy	eg, you could imagine writing (take n (for [i (range)] (.previous iter))) instead
18:47	Glenjamin	ah, i see - lazy-seq is unchunked?
18:47	kil3n	justin_smith: sorry that was button face
18:47	kil3n	justin_smith: Height is 120
18:47	amalloy	which looks okay, but will probably call .previous too many times because you're not explicitly guarding it with .hasPrevious
18:47	kil3n	justin_smith: font is menlo, correct
18:48	kil3n	justin_smith: I’ve tried changing the :height before in the init.el file as well, like this “(set-face-attribute 'default nil :height 180)”
18:48	PigDude	OK! How do I compare sets?
18:48	kil3n	justin_smith: but still resets after a sec
18:48	amalloy	Glenjamin: there are only a couple things in clojure.core that produce chunked sequences. range, seq on a vector, seq on a map...maybe something else i can't think of at the moment
18:48	justin_smith	kil3n: odd - maybe try opening ielm and checking the current face attributes?
18:48	PigDude	justin_smith: yea, this is for part of the program before i can guarantee clj-time (a cljs part)
18:48	Glenjamin	interesting, i wouldn't have expected range to be chunked
18:48	justin_smith	ahh
18:48	amalloy	some things preserve chunked sequences, like: for, map, filter, remove
18:48	technomancy	kil3n: starter kits like emacs live often do weird things that make them really difficult to debug
18:48	PigDude	justin_smith: for pulling (pr-str) formatted date when reading json, as value-fn
18:48	kil3n	justin_smith: tried changing the height directly, but how do I actually save this?
18:49	technomancy	it's difficult to recommend their use for new users
18:49	kil3n	technomancy: yeah :)
18:49	PigDude	,(compare #{1} #{1 2})
18:49	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentHashSet cannot be cast to java.lang.Comparable>
18:49	kil3n	technomancy: honored to speak to you btw, love leiningen
18:49	PigDude	,(compare #{} #{})
18:49	clojurebot	0
18:49	technomancy	kil3n: glad you like it =)
18:50	kil3n	please recommend another start if you have one, semi-n00b in emacs, used to be die-hard vim user before discovering the epicness of emacs when starting doing lots of clojure
18:50	PigDude	,(superset? #{1 2} #{1})
18:50	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: superset? in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
18:50	PigDude	ah it's not in core
18:50	justin_smith	kil3n: not only is emacs epic, it has lots of great fan fiction available too (melpa...)
18:51	amalloy	that's pretty weird, PigDude. why does it work for two empty collections?
18:51	justin_smith	,(do (require 'clojure.set) (clojure.set/superset? #{1 2} #{1}))
18:51	clojurebot	true
18:51	kil3n	justin_smith: fan fiction..? metaphor?
18:51	amalloy	&(identical? #{} #{})
18:51	lazybot	⇒ true
18:52	amalloy	i guess that's why. i didn't realize those read to indentical objects
18:52	justin_smith	kil3n: expanding on the "epic" metaphor
18:52	technomancy	kil3n: it's best to just pick individual packages that do things you like instead of finding one huge package that does everything
18:52	amalloy	&(identical? [] [])
18:52	lazybot	⇒ true
18:52	amalloy	&(identical? {} {})
18:52	lazybot	⇒ true
18:52	amalloy	well, today i learned something
18:52	kil3n	technomancy: yeah but that seems like something to do when you actually know what you need, after you’ve used the stuff productively for a while… ;)
18:52	Bronsa	amalloy: they get compiled to PHS/EMPTY PHM/EMPTY PV/EMPTY
18:53	technomancy	kil3n: but if you feel the need to start somewhere, I can at least promise that https://github.com/technomancy/better-defaults won't mislead you in weird/confusing ways
18:53	kil3n	hehe thx
18:53	amalloy	Bronsa: yeah, i gathered as much: there's not really any other explanation
18:53	Glenjamin	PigDude: i dunno about how well it works with cljs, but http://momentjs.com is my go-to for JS date/time handling
18:53	Bronsa	amalloy: yeah, that should also be true for (). see Compiler$EmptyExpr or however it's called
18:53	amalloy	technomancy: isn't that the same thing people with starter kits say?
18:54	coventry	,(identical? (pop [1]) [])
18:54	clojurebot	false
18:54	technomancy	amalloy: the difference is I'm not (anymore) filled with lies
18:54	PigDude	amalloy: interesting
18:55	justin_smith	,(identical? (empty #{}) (empty #{}))
18:55	clojurebot	false
18:55	PigDude	Glenjamin: in this case i have some common code handling dates in cljs and clj
18:55	PigDude	Glenjamin: so am going to use common JS/Java Date API as much as possible but probably end up shipping the object to clj-time immediately in clj and to date.js (or your moment.js) in cljs
18:56	Glenjamin	ah, that's likely to be tricky - i think java.util.Date and js Date are pretty similar - the latter being modelled on the former
18:56	Bronsa	justin_smith: looks like empty preserves meta
18:56	PigDude	Glenjamin: yea, in the end i just need to get consistent dates that can be compared in the host environment
18:56	PigDude	Glenjamin: which isn't so bad. the fanciest arithmetic is adding a minute to a date
18:56	justin_smith	PigDude: what about just using .getTime?
18:57	justin_smith	,(.getTime (java.util.Date.))
18:57	clojurebot	1399589548663
18:57	justin_smith	it's trivial to parse at least
18:57	PigDude	justin_smith: my designs originally all used unix timestamps, yes
18:57	PigDude	justin_smith: however that's a last resort :)
18:57	justin_smith	why last resort? do you need to carry something like tz info too?
18:58	PigDude	nope, and w/ timestamps comparison and basic arithmetic are pretty simple ... now i'm thinking if i should go back to that design. i wrote a lot of code for it ..
18:59	dbasch	,(System/currentTimeMillis)
18:59	clojurebot	1399589681249
18:59	justin_smith	it just seems that serialization / parsing is simpler with a timestamp number, and there are fewer weird things to go wrong (not to say there are none...)
18:59	PigDude	justin_smith: either way i want library users to be able to provide date objects, so i can't justuse timestamps. originally the library required calling w/ timestamps but i think this is unfriendly
19:00	justin_smith	then your wrapper layer is the getTime method of the Date object :)
19:00	PigDude	yea .. ok, thanks for talking w/ me about this, it's easy to doubt myself :P
19:01	PigDude	maybe better to go w/ timestamp
19:01	justin_smith	this is not flawless - sometimes a time has to be specific to a timezone, so then you need that metadata
19:01	justin_smith	but mostly it is the path of least complexity I think
19:02	Glenjamin	amalloy: cheers for the tips - am I ok to use your last sample pretty-much verbatim?
19:02	justin_smith	dbasch: nice, for some reason I missed that one :)
19:03	amalloy	it should work, yeah. although i'd really just use the version with for/range/nth
19:03	PigDude	justin_smith: yea, and lets me filter w/ (partial > t) rather than #((complement neg?) (compare t %))
19:03	PigDude	justin_smith: so i'll tak that :)
19:03	PigDude	(don't expect those to be identical coimparisons, point being comparing Dates is harder)
19:03	Glenjamin	oh right, i forgot to try that one
19:03	amalloy	well, i guess the version with a ListIterator works even for non-RandomAccess lists like a LinkedList
19:04	Glenjamin	in this case its a concrete ArrayList, but that version is much neater anyway
19:08	martinklepsch	if my uberjar saves files to certain directories (like resources/ in dev) etc, how would I intergrate that into the deployment?
19:08	martinklepsch	(I guess resources wasn't really the right place for this in the first place)
19:09	justin_smith	martinklepsch: io/resource finds resources in the classpath
19:09	justin_smith	martinklepsch: or are you concerned about data stored to the fs at runtime?
19:09	martinklepsch	the latter
19:10	justin_smith	you could modify your code to take a path as an env var or config
19:10	justin_smith	or use a CDN
19:18	swarthy	anyone every experience clojure.java.shell/sh causing segfault when trying to run a ruby script?
19:18	swarthy	ever*
19:19	justin_smith	causing the jvm to segfault? or just the shell?
19:19	noonian	i've experienced segfaults when trying to run ruby scripts myself :P
19:21	noonian	if you have ruby configured using rvm or rbenv it might not behave the same way from clojure.java.shell because afaik those tools monkey with your bash environment and it may be different from the jvm
19:25	swarthy	noonian: that is likely what is happening then
19:25	swarthy	justin_smith: causing ruby to segfault
19:25	swarthy	noonian: is there anything I might try to force an env/user? anything that worked for you?
19:25	justin_smith	with ProcessBuilder you can construct the specific env you want to pass to the child process
19:26	noonian	i haven't tried this with clojure.java.shell, but i had a similar problem in the past calling ruby from a pallet script and i had to first source a script for rvm that setup some variables for the correct version
19:27	noonian	i'm not sure where those scripts lived though
19:28	noonian	https://rvm.io/integration/cron#environment
19:29	noonian	so in bash before running the ruby script you do something like: source /usr/local/rvm/environments/ruby-1.9.2-p290
19:29	swarthy	so would it be possible to use (sh <source env> <call script>) ?
19:29	swarthy	i suppose I can try
19:30	justin_smith	with a ; in between, should work
19:30	swarthy	justin_smith: will do
19:30	swarthy	I smell a blog post.
19:31	amalloy	justin_smith: i don't think you can just put a ; in there, can you? sh doesn't actually call your shell, it invokes a process. you'll need (sh "bash" "-c" "source env; call script") or something
19:32	justin_smith	oh, ok - I thought by the name sh that it would be invoking a shell - in that case you wouldn't be able to use source either
19:33	justin_smith	yeah, clojure.java.shell/sh just spawns the program, so you would need to call /bin/sh explicitly (or bash if you really feel the need)
19:34	noonian	my bash-fu isn't where it should be without even calling out from java
19:34	justin_smith	(verified via (clojure.java.shell/sh "pstree"))
19:35	justin_smith	noonian: (clojure.java.shell/sh "sh" "-c" "source <file>; script")
19:35	noonian	justin_smith: nice
19:36	justin_smith	the whole command can be in one string arg to sh, after the "-c"
19:37	justin_smith	https://www.refheap.com/85278 <- example
19:38	noonian	later folks
19:40	swarthy	justin_smith: thanks for this, I'm working on it now
19:40	swarthy	so far no luck
19:45	justin_smith	how is the ruby in question installed?
19:45	justin_smith	perhaps it needs libs that are in /usr/local/lib/ instead of /usr/lib/ for example
20:05	TimMc	Given a var, is there an easy way to tell whether it could accept a given arglist?
20:05	TimMc	I'd rather not parse the arglists myself...
20:06	technomancy	TimMc: (some #{'&} (apply concat (:arglists (meta #'myvar)))) is a thing
20:06	technomancy	oh, a given arglist
20:06	technomancy	that's harder
20:06	technomancy	we do basically that in leiningen though
20:07	TimMc	For detecting bad CLI args?
20:07	technomancy	it ain't purty
20:07	TimMc	because that's exactly what I'm up to right now.
20:07	technomancy	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/leiningen-core/src/leiningen/core/main.clj#L226
20:08	TimMc	,((fn [& &] &) 1 2 3)
20:08	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid parameter list, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
20:08	TimMc	Just checking. :-P
20:09	technomancy	http://p.hagelb.org/smart.gif
20:11	amalloy	is & the only symbol that backquote treats specially that isn't a special form?
20:12	amalloy	that is, look at ##`(foo, def, &, let*, bar)
20:12	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! def is bad!
20:12	amalloy	die in a fire, bro
20:12	amalloy	,`(foo, def, &, let*, bar)
20:12	clojurebot	(sandbox/foo def & let* sandbox/bar)
20:13	TimMc	hah
20:13	TimMc	technomancy: imma steal that, k?
20:13	TimMc	and relicense it under the WTFPL
20:13	technomancy	~guards
20:13	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
20:15	TimMc	Seriously though, I might copy that into org.timmc/handy.
20:16	TimMc	I just realized I don't actually know how to do attribution in such a case other than adding a comment about the source...
20:16	technomancy	as long as it's EPL you're fine
20:59	zeroem	,(get-in {} [])
20:59	clojurebot	{}
20:59	zeroem	,(update-in {} [] identity)
20:59	clojurebot	{nil nil}
21:00	zeroem	is that inconsistency expected?
21:06	amalloy	zeroem: it's not totally clear what it would mean to update-in with an empty keyseq. {nil nil} is a stupid result, but nothing else is super-appealing
21:07	amalloy	do you want (update-in {} [] (constantly 5)) to return 5? then update-in doesn't even always return a map!
21:07	zeroem	amalloy: well, get-in with an empty keyseq returns the map itself, it would make sense if update-in provided the map itself to the fn
21:08	zeroem	if you println instead of identity, it's just given nil
21:08	amalloy	that's "reasonable", but as i said it leads to some unpleasant consequences
21:09	hyPiRion	I think it would be more sane to just throw if it's an empty keyseq, but perhaps that's just me.
21:10	coventry	,`~'` ; <- Is there any way to get a backtick inside a backtick?
21:10	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
21:11	amalloy	hyPiRion: that'd be my preference too
21:11	amalloy	coventry: no, it doesn't really make sense to do so given that backquote is read-time
21:11	coventry	Right.
21:15	lemonodor	is there a mocking library that I can use with clojure.test?
21:15	danlamanna	any immediate thoughts on mist/peer/freepastry?
21:36	justin_smith	newb jvm question: is onEnable a standard java method, or a convention of some plugin system?
21:36	jeremyheiler	in what context?
21:37	justin_smith	as a method on a class, in examples I see it contains initialization code
21:37	justin_smith	which I would usually assume goes in the constructor
21:37	justin_smith	googling is not giving me much
21:38	jeremyheiler	onEnable is surely a valid java method name. otherwise i don't understand your question.
21:39	justin_smith	I just wondered if it was a convention of some plugin system or framework, or something that the jvm would call
21:39	jeremyheiler	i mean, wht class are you talking about?
21:39	justin_smith	like I said, a newb question
21:39	jeremyheiler	where do you see it?
21:40	justin_smith	it's something I saw in a random paste of java code, and I got curious
21:40	justin_smith	sorry, I guess it's a stupid question
21:40	jeremyheiler	oh, ok. it doesn't ring a bel for me.
21:41	jeremyheiler	not a stupid question. i get it. seeing code out of context in an unfamiliar language begs lots of questions.
21:42	cbp	standard java method as in a method of Object?
21:42	cbp	then nope
21:58	justin_smith	PigDude: btw, it looks like there is a "Calendar" class for doing math on date / time. No idea if it is worth using though
22:00	justin_smith	,(doto (java.util.Calendar/getInstance) (.add java.util.Calendar/HOUR_OF_DAY 10))
22:00	clojurebot	#inst "2014-05-09T11:56:01.005+00:00"
22:00	zeroem	amalloy_: yeah I definitely would have preferred an exception rather than blowing hours on assumed functionality :F
22:11	justin_smith	amalloy_: I remember a little while back we were talking about setting up default java versions on debian. I just upgraded to jdk 1.8 and instead of messing with update-alternatives it sufficed to rm /etc/alternatives/java and replace it with a symlink to the jdk1.8 bin/java file
22:11	justin_smith	oh, and this worked
22:17	AWizzArd	dnolen_: In core.match, can I express: match x if it is (:or 1 2 3) or if it is `:guard even?`? If it is one bind its actual value to `n` so that I can `n` in the result.
22:19	AWizzArd	(if (or (= x 1) (= x 2) (= x 3) (even? x)) (let [n x] ...then...) else)
22:39	philc	from a repl, is it possible to run just a single (testing ...) context within a deftest?
22:45	servo	anyone know if theres a ruby fressian library?