#clojure – 2014-05-06

2014-05-06

01:41	seangrove	bbloom: Any thoughts on animation re: layout systems?
01:41	seangrove	Working on porting the layout stuff to reducers to see if there's any perf benefit from reduced GC pressure, but thinking about animation off in the distance
02:50	waynr	how do i run a task before creation of jar file in clojure
02:52	dbasch	waynr: I don’t know if this is what you’re asking, but you can chain tasks in leiningen, e.g. lein do clean, test, jar
02:52	waynr	i'd like to run a function prior to the creation of the jar
02:53	waynr	to create a manifest of the contents of the resources directory
02:54	waynr	someone mentioned the possibility yesterday and i thought "no, surely there must be some java-y or clojure-y way to learn the contents of a directory in the jar at runtime)
02:54	waynr	s/)/"/
02:54	waynr	now my brain is pretty much done for the day
02:54	dbasch	worst case you can do it with a custom plugin
02:55	dbasch	which is easier than it sounds
02:55	dbasch	e.g. https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/wiki/Plugins
02:56	waynr	yeah
02:56	waynr	or simpler, use a simpler language like bash or python to puke out the manifest
02:58	dbasch	I don’t think bash or python are simpler than clojure :)
02:58	waynr	i am writing a plugin right now to so i think i see wha tyou mean
03:17	gws	waynr: would this help? http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/util/jar/JarFile.html (ex: http://www.java2s.com/Code/Java/File-Input-Output/Listfilesinajarfile.htm)
05:26	f3ew	http://pastebin.com/SAQqPm79 Why is my function capturing the entire string?
05:28	maxthoursie	f3ew: guessing, but usualy with regex group 0 is the whole string
05:28	maxthoursie	f3ew: try [_ top_level hostname srv]
05:29	maxthoursie	(that is ignore the first argument)
05:29	clgv	f3ew: yes the first entry in the vector is the entire match, after that follow the groups
05:29	clgv	just use (rest (re-find #"^(sys)\.(\w+)\.(.+)$" service))
05:31	clgv	f3ew: it does not make much sense to destructure the result just to assemble it to a vector again
05:33	clgv	f3ew; why do you capture "sys" in a group anyway if it is just a constant?
05:33	f3ew	clgv: it's not going to be captured into a vector
05:33	f3ew	I'm trying to build up the parsing function
05:34	f3ew	First, easy test case is strings starting with sys
05:35	f3ew	The data source is arbitrary '.' separated strings, some of which I've to handle
05:38	f3ew	-t
05:38	f3ew	erm, s/t$//
05:40	f3ew	Thanks.
05:40	f3ew	So why is capture group 0 always the whole string?
05:40	maxthoursie	f3ew: it's the whole string that matched
05:41	maxthoursie	f3ew: it your not using ^ and $, that might not be the whole string
05:41	f3ew	Hmmm, my understanding of capture groups was that you would need to enclose them in ()
05:41	maxthoursie	f3ew: so there's always an impicit capture group around the whole re
05:42	f3ew	Yes, but why?
05:43	maxthoursie	it's a shortcut if you only matching something simpl
05:44	maxthoursie	(first (re-find #"\.(.*)")) would give you everything except for the text before the first dot, for example
05:45	CookedGr1phon	Hey, I'm trying to use core.async in cljs. I have the dependency listed but I'm getting filenotfoundexception, could not locate cljs/core/async__init.class or cljs/core/async.clj on classpath
05:45	maxthoursie	,(first (re-find #"\.(.*)" "foo.bar.baz"))
05:45	clojurebot	".bar.baz"
05:45	CookedGr1phon	I have quite a complex profile setup, so I'm wondering if I have borked something to do with cljsbuild's configuration for pulling in libraries
05:47	maxthoursie	f3ew: ok, just read (doc re-groups), that would have been better using just
05:47	maxthoursie	,(re-find #"\..*" "foo.bar.baz")
05:47	clojurebot	".bar.baz"
05:48	maxthoursie	f3ew: can't find a use case right now, but that's the way regex functions in most languages works
05:59	foofoobar	Hi. When I'm in the REPL, how can I go to a new line (without submitting the current command)
06:00	foofoobar	hitting just enter works, but then I cant indent with tab, I have to use spaces then
06:04	clgv	f3ew: consistency, without capturing groups you just get the match
06:13	clgv	foofoobar: "lein repl"? some emacs repl? ccw? cursive? vim-fireplace?
06:18	foofoobar	clgv, lein repl
06:21	clgv	foofoobar: well if you want features like autoident I guess you have to use some kind of "IDE", e.g. one of the above mentioned
06:22	foofoobar	clgv, I'm a vim user, so I will have a look at vim-fireplace
06:22	foofoobar	thanks
06:24	visof	i have created package jar using leinengen leun uberjar and it depends on other java jar package how can i run it?
06:25	visof	java -cp bar.jar foo.jar , foo.jar is what is created by lein uberjar
06:25	visof	bar is a java jar
06:25	visof	i need to use some methods from bar.jar in foo.jar
06:25	visof	how can i do this?
06:27	llasram	visof: (a) Are you sure you need the other JAR? Part of the point of uberjars is that they bundle together all of the project dependencies into a single JAR
06:27	llasram	(b) java -cp foo.jar:bar.jar WhateverClass
06:28	visof	llasram: how can inject this local jar to lein project to package all together?
06:29	llasram	Is this a JAR for an existing other Leiningen project, and you just want it available locally for testing the whole app or something?
06:29	llasram	If so, `lein install` will install the JAR in your local maven repository (~/.m2)
06:34	fizruk	how do I convert string to int or nil (if parse fails)
06:34	fizruk	?
06:36	llasram	,(defmacro ignore-errors [& body] `(try ~@body (catch Exception _# nil)))
06:36	llasram
06:36	clojurebot	llasram: Cool story bro.
06:36	llasram	Aww
06:36	llasram	Right, no exceptinos in bots
06:36	llasram	fizruk: Anyway, just use `Long/parseLong` and catch any exceptions
06:37	fizruk	okay
06:46	fizruk	,(Boolean "123")
06:46	clgv	visof: as llasram said uberjars already contain all declared dependencies
06:46	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Expecting var, but Boolean is mapped to class java.lang.Boolean>
06:46	fizruk	,(Boolean. "123")
06:46	clojurebot	false
06:47	clgv	,(= (Boolean. true) true)
06:47	clojurebot	true
06:47	clgv	,(= (Boolean. false) false)
06:47	clojurebot	true
06:47	visof	clgv: can i declare jars which isn't remote?
06:47	clgv	fizruk: better do not construct booleans manually ;)
06:47	clgv	visof: I dont understand that question
06:48	alex______	My clojure project run on localhost is fine but after the deploy on heroku some page not functioning well
06:48	fizruk	clgv: I want “true” -> true, “false” -> false, “whatever” -> nil
06:49	clgv	,(Boolean/parseBoolean "true")
06:49	clojurebot	true
06:49	clgv	,(= (Boolean/parseBoolean "false") (Boolean/parseBoolean "false"))
06:49	clojurebot	true
06:49	fizruk	,(Boolean/parseBoolean "123")
06:49	clojurebot	false
06:50	fizruk	clgv: ^ that’s the problem :(
06:50	clgv	lol a number is no boolean ;)
06:50	llasram	(fn tristate [x] (case x "true" true, "false" false", #_else nil)) ;; Although why the hell do you want this?
06:50	fizruk	why is it so inconsistent? T_T
06:50	clgv	you just want something according to clojure's truthy semantics?
06:50	clgv	,(boolean "123")
06:50	clojurebot	true
06:51	fizruk	no, I want to ignore things that are not “true” or “false”
06:51	clgv	,(mapv boolean ["123" 1 false true nil])
06:51	clojurebot	[true true false true false]
06:51	clgv	fizruk: you need to explain that with some more examples.
06:51	llasram	,(map (fn tristate [x] (case x "true" true, "false" false, #_else nil)) ["true" "false" "whatever"])
06:51	clojurebot	(true false nil)
06:51	fizruk	llasram: that’s how I’d do it, yeah
06:52	clgv	fizruk: ,(filterv boolean? ["123" 1 false true nil])
06:52	clgv	,(filterv boolean? ["123" 1 false true nil])
06:52	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: boolean? in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
06:52	clgv	,(filterv #(instance? Boolean %) ["123" 1 false true nil])
06:52	clojurebot	[false true]
06:52	fizruk	llasram: clgv: just would like it to be simpler
06:52	alex______	My clojure project run on localhost is fine but after the deploy on heroku some page not functioning well
06:53	fizruk	clgv: I get strings from user and i want to ignore invalid boolean fields
06:54	clgv	fizruk: whats the probelm with "case" then?
06:54	fizruk	,(Boolean. "asd")
06:54	clojurebot	false
06:54	clgv	fizruk: forget about that class and its constructor
06:54	fizruk	clgv: no problem, it just seems inconsistent that (Integer. “asd”) throws exception, but (Boolean. “asd”) returns value
06:56	clgv	fizruk: well its consistent to its docstring http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/lang/Boolean.html
06:56	clgv	,(Boolean/parseBoolean "123")
06:56	clojurebot	false
06:56	clgv	same there...
06:57	fizruk	I just don’t get why they made it work this way
06:58	fizruk	i’d expect parseBoolean to parse booleans
06:58	fizruk	not to return false when string is not “true”
06:58	clgv	well, you probably wont find out here ;)
06:58	fizruk	i guess :)
06:59	clgv	there is a java channel where they might now. but I dont know if the reason will matter that much to your dev project ;)
06:59	fizruk	i’m just complaining, nvm
07:17	bilbobraggins	I'm writing a thin wrapper for a Java API that mainly provides interfaces. Let's say there's a Element interface, and a Vertex interface which inherits from it. I have two namespaces foo.element and foo.vertex. Is it looked down upon if I redefine the wrapper functions of Element in foo.vertex again instead of using something like potemkin?
07:23	fizruk	,({"true" true "false" false} "123”)
07:23	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading string>
07:23	fizruk	,({"true" true "false" false} "123")
07:23	clojurebot	nil
07:24	fizruk	llasram: clgv: going to use this ^
07:28	visof	i have created local repo and added the my jar package to it
07:29	visof	and then i did lein deps
07:29	visof	but i got this errors http://sprunge.us/aaUe
07:29	visof	is there anybody can help in this?
07:30	clgv	fizruk: ah right. thats in fact the same procedure as in case ;)
07:30	clgv	fizruk: since case uses hashing as well
07:30	fizruk	good to know case uses hashing
07:31	clgv	~repeatability
07:31	clojurebot	repeatability is crucial for builds, see https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/wiki/Repeatability
07:32	clgv	visof: for temporary development you need to install the jar you want as dependency locally (lein install or such) at least
07:32	visof	clgv: lein install give me the same resutl
07:34	clgv	visof: you need to install the dependency locally not the project that is using it
07:34	visof	clgv: how can i do this?
07:35	clgv	visof: how did you get its jar in the first place?
07:37	clgv	visof: http://www.elangocheran.com/blog/2013/03/installing-jar-files-locally-for-leiningen-2/
08:03	clgv	using clojure.test.check, why does (def byte-gen (gen/fmap #(-> % (mod 256) (- 128)) gen/nat)) return only values in [-128, ... -29] for ((juxt first last) (sort (gen/sample byte-gen 1000000))) ?
08:07	visof	clgv: how can i add deploy-file plugin to pom.xml ?
08:07	visof	in lein project
08:09	maxthoursie	clgv: that does look weird
08:18	maxthoursie	clgv: gen/nat doesn't generate very big numbers
08:22	maxthoursie	clgv: you should use gen/choose
08:22	maxthoursie	clgv: ((juxt first last) (sort (gen/sample (gen/choose -128 127) 100000)))
08:27	maxthoursie	clgv: oh, you should probably use gen/byte :)
08:31	f3ew	What does the -> operator/macro/function do? /win 10
08:31	maxthoursie	f3ew: it's the threading macro
08:31	llasram	(doc ->)
08:31	clojurebot	"([x & forms]); Threads the expr through the forms. Inserts x as the second item in the first form, making a list of it if it is not a list already. If there are more forms, inserts the first form as the second item in second form, etc."
08:32	f3ew	Right, so just reverse ordering for readability
08:32	f3ew	?
08:32	maxthoursie	yes
08:32	llasram	Kind of
08:32	llasram	Note that it is thread-first, vs ->>'s threat-last
08:33	maxthoursie	that is insert as first argument or last argument
08:35	maxthoursie	->> tend to be more useful with higer order fns
08:37	AWizzArd	amalloy_: Ah okay I see, I didn’t notice this. But when .- was added to Clojure back then, was the . accessor for fields removed? I think it still works no? (.publicField my-obj)
08:38	AWizzArd	(defrecord Foo [a b c]) (.b (Foo. 10 20 30)) => 20
08:48	visof	i tried to add maven local repo, and this the result of lein deps and lein install http://sprunge.us/HNQG , project content: http://sprunge.us/jaRH , command i used to deploy the package to local repo http://sprunge.us/iPeQ
08:48	visof	please anybody can help in this?
08:49	visof	it doesn't see the local pacakge
08:51	beamso	lein won't respect you setting M2_HOME in your shell?
08:53	visof	beamso: for me?
08:53	KeithPM	amalloy_: Follow up on the set! issue. You're right, it works fine in a REPL but needs the '-' in Light Table. Maybe the Light Table environment forces a ClojureScript environment?
08:53	llasram	visof: You installed the hdt-java-core JAR in your local repository with the group-id `local`?
08:53	beamso	visof: yeah
08:53	visof	llasram: yeah
08:53	visof	llasram: is this wrong?
08:53	beamso	to me it sounds strange to not use ~/.m2
08:54	llasram	srlsy
08:54	visof	beamso: if i have used the default path of ~/.m2 i got the same
08:54	beamso	could you find the .jar under ~/.m2/repository?
08:55	visof	beamso: Installing /home/visof/code/clojure/hdtsimplesearch/hdt-java-core-1.1.1-SNAPSHOT.jar to /home/visof/.m2/repository/local/hdt-java-core/1.1.1/hdt-java-core-1.1.1.jar , not dependencies should be local/hdt-java-core "1.1.1"
08:55	visof	?
08:56	llasram	visof: I'm not sure if this is the only problem, but your -Dpackaging should be "jar" not "jars"
08:58	visof	llasram: i did
08:59	visof	llasram: now to use this api from this jar i should use (import ?? )?
09:01	CookedGr1phon	does clojurescript not support clojure.core/require?
09:04	visof	llasram: lein deps; lein install; don't notify me anything it's downloading jar from local repo
09:04	visof	and don't give me anything
09:05	llasram	Um. It doesn't need to download anything
09:05	llasram	If you don't get an error, that means it's working
09:07	visof	llasram: i don't get anything, should i get classes compiled at classed dir
09:07	llasram	I'
09:08	llasram	Sorry, I've used up my IRC support time this morning. Best of luck
09:08	visof	thanks
09:15	clgv	maxthoursie: damn missed that one... I'll need it for the other sizes as well ;)
09:16	clgv	gen/choose is the trick I was looking for...
09:31	clgv	visof: local repo is just a folder on your disk - there is no downloading needed
09:31	clgv	visof: if you want to see all your dependencies use "lein deps :tree"
10:02	visof	i have a java method which is called HDTManager.mapHDT("data/example.hdt", null); how can i call it inside clojure?
10:03	CookedGr1phon	(HDTManager/mapHDT "data/example.hdt" nil)
10:06	visof	CookedGr1phon: i should import and require also right?
10:13	CookedGr1phon	ah, so if you haven't alreaady got HDTManager imported you will need to either fully namespace qualify it (com.mycompany.whatever/HDTManager/mapHDT ....)
10:13	CookedGr1phon	or import it
10:13	CookedGr1phon	which will let you use the short version of the name
10:14	CookedGr1phon	require is only for clojure namespaces and shouldn't come into it
10:14	visof	CookedGr1phon: i did http://sprunge.us/PAMO
10:14	visof	CookedGr1phon: so now i can do as you told (HDTManager/mapHDT "data/example.hdt" nil) ?
10:16	CookedGr1phon	possibly, I'm not sure about your use of import, I usually import them like so (:import [org.refhdt.hdt.hdt HDTManager HDT])
10:17	michaniskin	cemerick: ping?
10:18	CookedGr1phon	visof i think to import one thing at a time, they shouldn't be in a list like that, you should just quote it, so (:import 'org.refhdt.hdt.hdt.HDTManager 'org.refhdt.hdt.hdt.HDT)
10:22	visof	import stuff is running using lein run without calling any method
10:22	visof	CookedGr1phon: i tried as you suggested and got Caused by: java.lang.RuntimeException: No such namespace: HDTManager ?
10:22	visof	CookedGr1phon: have i missed something?
10:22	jcromartie	no need to quote
10:22	visof	jcromartie: what do you mean?
10:23	jcromartie	(ns foo (:import java.util.Iterator (org.rdfhdt.hdt.hdt HDT HDTManager) (org.rdfhdt.hdt.triples IteratorTripleString TripleString
10:23	jcromartie	)))
10:23	MrJones98	Relatively inexperienced with clojure and encountering a weird error that highlights a fundamental lack of understanding on my part of what's going on…
10:24	MrJones98	if i do (clojure.walk/postwalk identity m) where m is (def m (somefunc)), it works as expected
10:24	MrJones98	if i do (clojure.walk/postwalk identity (somefunc)), i get an abstractmethoderror
10:25	cemerick	michaniskin: pong, but leaving in 10m :-P
10:25	MrJones98	specifically, java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Character cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry
10:26	MrJones98	not sure if there's an obvious explanation… i'm currently trying to trim down the example to remove any confidential information since (somefunc) is pulling data from datomic
10:26	michaniskin	cemerick: hi :) do you know of any issues with pomegranate resolving snapshot deps in windows? in boot i'm having this problem, and in windows8 making "SNAPSHOT" lowercase seems to have helped, but not in windows7
10:26	jcromartie	MrJones98: the 2nd arg to postwalk should be the value you want to walk
10:26	jcromartie	you can't walk a function
10:26	jcromartie	you can walk a structure
10:27	cemerick	michaniskin: I don't know of any...but then, I don't use windows much for development
10:28	MrJones98	jcromartie: as in you can't call a function whose return value is used as the argument?
10:28	michaniskin	cemerick: also i'm maintaining a cljs build task in boot, and i keep running into changes in cljs compiler that cause incremental compilation to be slower than necessary (like recent change to the way the analyzed stuff is stored between compiles)
10:28	jcromartie	MrJones98: that should be fine
10:28	jcromartie	oh sorry
10:28	jcromartie	I thought it was (defn m ...)
10:28	michaniskin	cemerick: since you're doing a lot of work with cljsbuild these days i was wondering if you could kind of alert me to these things from time to time?
10:28	jcromartie	is (somefunc) stateful?
10:29	jcromartie	i.e. does it return the same thing every time?
10:29	cemerick	michaniskin: I'm not aware of anything aside from the compiler environment change that would be relevant
10:29	michaniskin	cemerick: cool thanks!
10:30	MrJones98	jcromartie: somefunc pulls info from datomic… but there are no changes to the database in between calls in the above example
10:30	MrJones98	so, unless there's something else i don't understand about datomic, somefunc is effectively returning the same value between calls
10:31	jcromartie	What does (somefunc) return in the REPL?
10:31	jcromartie	is it what you'd expect?
10:32	MrJones98	yes, it's what i expect… i've been tweaking/experimenting with a bunch of stuff and my symptoms may have changed a little
10:33	MrJones98	if i do (somefunc) in the repl, and copy/paste the output into (def m <result of (somefunc)>), everything works as expected
10:34	MrJones98	if i do (def m (somefunc)), i get the same result as if i do (walk identity (somefunc))… so at least that part makes sense to me now
10:35	visof	i can't run this http://sprunge.us/DXPD and got ns HDTManager not found
10:35	jcromartie	visof: you are still putting your classes in lists?
10:35	jcromartie	visof: there are two ways to import classes into a namespace
10:36	jcromartie	(import 'foo.bar.Class)
10:36	jcromartie	or the prefix list way
10:36	jcromartie	(import '(foo.bar Class1 Class2))
10:36	visof	jcromartie: is this wrong?
10:36	gfredericks	,(defn inc-double [x] (loop [x' (* 2 x)] (let [half-delta (/ (- x' x) 2) x'' (+ x half-delta)] (if (or (= x x'') (= x' x'')) x' (recur x'')))))
10:36	clojurebot	#'sandbox/inc-double
10:36	gfredericks	,(inc-double 3.14)
10:36	clojurebot	3.1400000000000006
10:36	jcromartie	when you say (import '(foo.bar.Class)) it's actually not going to import anything, because the list is interpreted as a prefix list with a package but no classes
10:37	jcromartie	i.e. it interprets (import '(foo.bar.Class)) as "import () from the package foo.bar.Class"
10:37	jcromartie	does that make sense?
10:37	visof	yeah
10:37	visof	i'll change it now and try again
10:37	gfredericks	,(inc-double 100.0)
10:37	clojurebot	100.00000000000001
10:38	gfredericks	,(inc-double 9e9)
10:38	clojurebot	9.000000000000002E9
10:39	visof	after changing http://sprunge.us/GbSMM and i got this error: Caused by: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: org.rdfhdt.hdt.hdt.HDT
10:39	jcromartie	alright, now we're getting somewhere :)
10:39	visof	correct http://sprunge.us/GbSM
10:40	jcromartie	so
10:41	jcromartie	are you using Leiningen?
10:41	visof	jcromartie: yeah
10:41	jcromartie	you should have a dependency for the hdt stuff
10:42	visof	jcromartie: [local/hdt-java-core "1.1.1"]]
10:42	jcromartie	huh, local?
10:42	visof	jcromartie: http://sprunge.us/aOSJ
10:42	visof	jcromartie: yeah local, because it's a java jar
10:42	jcromartie	the [local/whatever "…"] in a dependency does not specify a repo
10:42	jcromartie	BTW
10:42	jcromartie	it's a group ID
10:43	MrJones98	i can't seem to create any cases (via the repl) where (clojure.walk/postwalk identity m) fails, regardless of what i put in for m
10:43	visof	jcromartie: yeah i know :repositories {"local" ~(str (.toURI (java.io.File. "maven_repository")))}
10:43	jcromartie	so you would have to have installed that lib under a "local" group ID
10:43	jcromartie	OK
10:43	jcromartie	so
10:43	jcromartie	what's in maven_repository?
10:43	visof	jcromartie: http://sprunge.us/WeNf
10:44	jcromartie	there's no group
10:44	jcromartie	it should be maven_repository/local/hdt-java-core/1.1.1
10:44	visof	yeah
10:44	visof	it's
10:44	visof	but i have cd maven_repository; tree
10:44	jcromartie	still wrong
10:45	visof	what wrong?
10:45	jcromartie	it's not going to find an artifact with the group ID "local", artifact ID "hdt-java-core", version "1.1.1"
10:45	jcromartie	if it's /maven_repository/hdt-java-core/1.1.1
10:45	jcromartie	that's wrong
10:45	jcromartie	you need /maven_repository/local/hdt-java-core/1.1.1
10:45	visof	it's maven_repository/local/hdt-java-core/1.1.1
10:45	jcromartie	oh ok
10:46	jcromartie	you said "cd maven_repository; tree"
10:46	visof	yeah
10:46	jcromartie	and I don't see "local"
10:46	jcromartie	I see "."
10:46	jcromartie	here http://sprunge.us/WeNf
10:46	visof	it's ok
10:46	jcromartie	OK
10:46	visof	now?
10:46	visof	is there anything i did wrong?
10:47	jcromartie	well presumably
10:48	jcromartie	also what happened to all the quotes in your project.clj
10:49	jcromartie	http://sprunge.us/aOSJ
10:51	visof_	jcromartie> well presumably9 the last thing i got
10:51	visof_	jcromartie: what else you paste?
10:51	jcromartie	also what happened to all the quotes in your project.clj
10:52	jcromartie	http://sprunge.us/aOSJ <— is missing quotes
10:52	visof_	jcromartie: the site
10:52	jcromartie	O
10:52	jcromartie	are you running your project in a REPL?
10:52	jcromartie	if you updated the project.clj you would need to restart
10:52	visof_	jcromartie: https://www.refheap.com/85177
10:52	jcromartie	but this local custom maven repo thing is probably hugely messy… there has to be a better way to do it
10:53	jcromartie	why do you have it in a "local" group instead of the normal group that the lib uses?
10:53	visof_	jcromartie: what should i do?
10:53	jcromartie	oh also
10:53	visof_	jcromartie: mvn install:install-file -Dfile=hdt-java-core-1.1.1-SNAPSHOT.jar -DgroupId=local -DartifactId=hdt-java-core -Dversion=1.1.1 -Dpackaging=jar
10:54	visof_	jcromartie: remove groupId=local ?
10:54	jcromartie	alright that should be fine
10:54	jcromartie	OK
10:54	jcromartie	your :repositories
10:54	jcromartie	should be a vector of vectors, not a map
10:54	jcromartie	i.e.
10:54	jcromartie	:repositories [["local" ~(str (.toURI (java.io.File. "maven_repository")))]]
10:54	jcromartie	also, you can define vars up above defproject if you want to
10:55	jcromartie	so you could say
10:55	jcromartie	(def local-repo (-> "maven_repository" java.io.File. .toURI str)) then later just ~local-repo
10:55	jcromartie	keep your defproject cleaner
10:56	visof_	okay
10:56	visof_	now
10:56	visof_	what do you think about fixing this?
10:56	jcromartie	so have you updated your :repositories in project.clj?
10:57	visof_	yeah
10:58	jcromartie	and restarted your project?
10:59	visof_	jcromartie: i don't use repl
10:59	visof_	jcromartie: i can use it as java -cp hdt-java-core.jar foo.jar main.class ?
11:00	visof_	jcromartie: is this another way to use sdk from hdt-java-core.jar inside foo.jar?
11:01	MrJones98	jcromartie: in case you're interested… i think the problem was that one of my map values was a datomic entitymap so the walk was diving into the entity also and that's causing it to bomb
11:03	jcromartie	visof_: is there a reason you're using a custom build of the hdt lib?
11:03	visof_	jcromartie: is there another way to do this?
11:03	jcromartie	visof_: I mean is there a reason you're installing it locally rather than using one in the maven central repo, for instance
11:03	jcromartie	do you have custom changes to it?
11:04	visof_	jcromartie: nope
11:04	jcromartie	then use a repo where it already exists!
11:05	jcromartie	if you can live with 1.1, it's on maven central
11:05	visof_	jcromartie: http://mvnrepository.com/artifact/org.rdfhdt/hdt-java-core
11:05	jcromartie	do you need 1.1.1?
11:05	visof_	nope
11:05	visof_	jcromartie: so what should i do?
11:05	jcromartie	jesus christ
11:05	jcromartie	excuse me
11:05	jcromartie	use that!
11:06	jcromartie	[org.rdfhdt/hdt-java-core "1.1"]
11:06	jcromartie	done
11:06	jcromartie	no custom repos
11:07	jcromartie	sorry I assumed you had a reason to go through all the pain of an extra custom local maven repo
11:08	jcromartie	but it is really easy to grab most open source maven artifacts, because Leiningen includes maven central
11:08	visof_	jcromartie: thanks
11:10	visof_	jcromartie: this HDTManager.loadHDT return HDT type which i use HDT hdt = HDTManager.loadHDT.... ; hdt.search("", "", "");
11:10	visof_	jcromartie: how can convert hdt.search() to clojure
11:12	TEttinger	visof_: http://clojure.org/java_interop
11:12	alejandro	visof_: something like (.search (HDTManager/loadHDT))
11:32	clgv	visof_: do yourself a favour and speed up your learn process by buying and reading one of those excellent clojure books ;)
11:51	ghadishayban	I'm having trouble importing a closure library enum http://docs.closure-library.googlecode.com/git/namespace_goog_history.html goog.history.EventType
11:53	ghadishayban	It's for use with gf3/secretary. I see there is a closed issue https://github.com/gf3/secretary/issues/20 Compiler passes it, but page doesn't load
11:56	ghadishayban	Can anyone help me refer to that from clojurescript? It's strange because it's an enum, and goog.require barfs with "undefined nameToPath for goog.history.EventType"
11:56	danno	So with (def ^:dynamic x 10) isn't ^:dynamic redundant? since all def and defn is a dynamic root binding?
11:57	ghadishayban	danno: dynamic is not the default anymore, it's opt-in
11:59	danno	ok, thanks ghadishayban
12:07	ghadishayban	Ok I successfully imported it, my cljsbuild output-dir was off
12:47	rolfb	o/ i'm working through problems on 4clojure, but i'm not sure if the problem is badly stated on http://www.4clojure.com/problem/53 ... should I use subseq or not?
12:49	jcromartie	it's not forbidden
12:51	cbp	vectors are not sorted collections so I doubt you can use subseq there
12:51	rolfb	any hints to what I should be doing?
12:52	jcromartie	I think subvec is going to be more useful to you
12:53	rolfb	the docs doesn't even make sense to me for that function
12:53	rolfb	where do I go to read up on it?
12:54	cbp	subseq is to be used with sorted-set's or sorted-map's
12:54	rolfb	(doc subseq)
12:54	clojurebot	"([sc test key] [sc start-test start-key end-test end-key]); sc must be a sorted collection, test(s) one of <, <=, > or >=. Returns a seq of those entries with keys ek for which (test (.. sc comparator (compare ek key)) 0) is true"
12:54	rolfb	what does ek mean here anyway?
12:55	rolfb	end key?
12:56	lemonodor	no, it’s just a placeholder. “returns a seq of those entries with keys X for which (test (.. sc comparator (compare X key)) 0) is true
12:58	cbp	rolfb: what you need to do is recurse over the vectors you're given while accumulating groups of incrementing numbers. On each recursion you check if the next number is incrementing respective to the last group you have which tells you to add to that group or create a new group
12:59	rolfb	cbp: i've been considering that, but i hit a speedbump trying to pass a nested structure back via recur
13:00	dbasch	rolfb: I’m looking and how I did that problem, and I did exactly what cbp suggested
13:01	dbasch	there’s nothing nested, just two vectors in my recur
13:01	dbasch	and a couple of flags
13:02	rolfb	dbasch: what's your username? would love to follow your solutions when i'm done
13:02	cbp	If it makes things easier you can have two accumulators. One for the groups and another for the last group you have
13:02	dbasch	rolfb: dbasch :) not particularly proud of my solutions though, there are much better ones
13:02	rolfb	more data is good ;)
13:03	dbasch	there are a few that I like, the rest are mostly embarrasing
13:03	jcromartie	I did this one without recursion
13:03	jcromartie	it might be really bad performance-wise though
13:03	rolfb	jcromartie: oh?
13:03	jcromartie	yeah
13:03	rolfb	i can make a list of conditions that will pass the test
13:03	rolfb	:P
13:04	rolfb	would be without recursion as well
13:04	dbasch	I didn’t use recursion either, just a plain old loop-recur
13:04	rolfb	recur is ... recursion?
13:04	dbasch	(doc recur)
13:04	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
13:05	dbasch	,(doc recur)
13:05	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
13:05	rolfb	haha
13:05	rolfb	:)
13:06	jcromartie	rolfb: loop/recur is recursion if you ask me
13:06	jcromartie	I did it entirely with seq fns
13:06	jcromartie	https://www.refheap.com/85181
13:06	dbasch	jcromartie: loop / recur is definitely not recursion
13:06	sdegutis	How do you usually pass plain old Clojure data from Clojure to ClojureScript?
13:07	cbp	application/edn? :-P
13:07	sdegutis	I rendered an HTML element with a data-tag containing (pr-str [:foo :bar]) but I don't know how to evaluate it in ClojureScript, or if this is even the right way to do it.
13:07	sdegutis	lazybot is gone btw
13:08	jcromartie	edn/read-string
13:08	sdegutis	Oh, I could alternatively render it as JSON on the server-side and unroll it on client-side that way.
13:09	rolfb	jcromartie: need to read up on macros a bit more
13:09	jcromartie	dbasch: it is effectively the same thing as a fn that recurs, no?
13:09	sdegutis	cbp: I don't understand your answer.
13:09	sdegutis	jcromartie: Thanks I will look for where to download the EDN library for ClojureScript.
13:09	dbasch	jcromartie: no, it’s the same thing as a for loop in other languages
13:10	jcromartie	sdegutis: it should be included as clojure.edn
13:10	cbp	sdegutis: you can serve edn and set Content-Type: application/edn
13:10	dbasch	jcromartie: or at least you can use it that way
13:10	jcromartie	dbasch: yeah sure, but it's equivalent to setting up an anonymous fn that recurs and passing it initial args
13:12	dbasch	jcromartie: ok, but it’s semantics. Nobody would say that (for i = 0; i < 10 ; i++) is a recursive solution to anything
13:12	sdegutis	cbp: that sounds like a hack
13:12	sdegutis	jcromartie: Is that included with ClojureScript? I get the error goog.require could not find clojure.edn
13:13	sdegutis	Ah a staackoverflow post suggests it's "cljs.reader"
13:13	jcromartie	I guess not
13:13	sdegutis	Which seems to work, except now I have to track down print-fn and who's supposed to set it.
13:14	nullptr	you can see edn going in both directions @ https://github.com/swannodette/om-sync/blob/master/src/om_sync/util.cljs
13:14	sdegutis	Oh :)
13:15	sdegutis	It works!
13:15	sdegutis	(I forgot that you just have to do .log js/console
13:15	whodidthis	(js/console.log
13:15	cbp	you can put (enable-console-print!)
13:16	cbp	that lets you use println and so on
13:16	whodidthis	you know what really grinds my gears? printlns in dev tools pointing to the implementation of println
13:18	jcromartie	why in the world would println not do that by default
13:20	sdegutis	Alright everyone let's just all calm down.
13:20	sdegutis	Btw this worrrrks!!
13:20	whodidthis	i guess :( its just useful to know where prints are coming from in your code and console.log pretty bad at displaying clojure data
13:23	jcromartie	that makes some sense
13:23	coventry`	I almost never use raw console.log, I have a utility function which composes it with pr-str.
13:23	jcromartie	that would be much better
13:23	sdegutis	I guess I'm lazy then, for I always write (.log js/console whatever)
13:24	jcromartie	or convert clojure collections to JS ones, so that they can be inspected with the Chrome/Firefox console
13:24	bbloom	sdegutis: truly lazy would copy paste a function pp and then (pp whatever) :-)
13:25	sdegutis	Not so! For then I would have to keep track of that function and ensure that I delete it when I'm done with it.
13:25	sdegutis	That's extra work.
13:25	bbloom	sdegutis: why would you have to delete it?
13:25	sdegutis	Because it doesn't belong there.
13:25	bbloom	it's not hurting anyone... leave it there :-P
13:25	bbloom	i have it in my lein profile tho for the clj
13:25	sdegutis	No! It is wrong!
13:25	bbloom	er rather the jvm
13:25	jcromartie	sdegutis: to have a util function?
13:25	jcromartie	sdegutis: why?
13:25	sdegutis	To leave a development function in production code.
13:26	whodidthis	would advanced compilation remove such function if it was never used anywhere
13:26	bbloom	sdegutis: that is a bad mentality
13:26	jcromartie	there is really no reason not to
13:26	sdegutis	I see.
13:26	jcromartie	I use production apps that console.log all the time
13:26	jcromartie	no qualms from me here
13:26	sdegutis	Thank you for your time.
13:26	ssswdon	defmacro question, I want to do the following
13:27	bbloom	sdegutis: if it was useful for debugging during development, it will be useful for debugging in production
13:27	bbloom	sdegutis: all functions are production functions :-P
13:27	coventry`	Is this a teaching of Uncle Bob?
13:27	bbloom	Uncle BBloom
13:28	coventry`	I was asking sdegutis :-)
13:28	sdegutis	coventry`: Be you trolling, O sir?
13:29	cbp	nil
13:30	rolfb	thanks for the input everyone, need to get back to learning some principles
13:30	sdegutis	Thanks.
13:30	ssswdon	I would like to pass the following to a macro name my-iif (my-iif( > 3 9) :then(println 'false') :else'ok) and get the correct results. The best I can do is get a nil as results
13:31	coventry`	What is the correct result in that case?
13:31	ToxicFrog	ssswdon: ...what would you expect? println returns nil, no?
13:31	sdegutis	ssswdon: Are you sure you want to create a macro?
13:31	shaungilchrist	'false' is going to be problematic as well
13:32	ssswdon	if I use reverse case I don't get the ok just nil
13:32	sdegutis	coventry`: No, it is my own idea.
13:32	ToxicFrog	,(if (> 3 9) (println 'false') 'ok)
13:32	clojurebot	ok
13:32	ToxicFrog	wait
13:33	seangrove	Any way to "name" a time?
13:33	ToxicFrog	Oh, I see.
13:33	seangrove	(time do-something "Do something")
13:33	ToxicFrog	The way you wrote that is confusing as hell, ssswdon
13:33	ssswdon	yeah let me give another example
13:34	ssswdon	(my-iif(> 3 9) :then 'false :else 'ok) this is passed to a macro
13:35	cbp	seangrove: I think only something like another macro + an atom with a map will do?
13:35	sdegutis	ssswdon: are you making Clojure more Ruby-like?
13:35	ssswdon	nope just playing with some macro
13:35	sdegutis	You may want to use refheap.com
13:36	coventry`	I don't see why you'd need an atom. What's wrong with this? https://www.refheap.com/85182
13:36	PigDude	hm how do you prevent duplication in your test code of common test params?
13:37	ssswdon	just trying to understand macors
13:37	cbp	Well I guess it depends how is the name going to be used
13:37	coventry`	Oh, I guess.
13:38	ToxicFrog	ssswdon: so, either ask questions about macros, or pastebin your implementation and ask questions about that?
13:38	clgv	ssswdon: (defmacro my-iif [expr & {:keys [then, else]}] `(if ~expr ~then ~else))
13:39	clgv	,(defmacro my-iif [expr & {:keys [then, else]}] `(if ~expr ~then ~else))
13:39	clojurebot	#'sandbox/my-iif
13:39	clgv	,(my-iif(> 3 9) :then 'false :else 'ok)
13:39	clojurebot	ok
13:39	ssswdon	let me play with that @clgv I will come back pastebin if needed
13:39	ssswdon	Thanks!
13:40	coventry`	,(macroexpand '(my-iif(> 3 9) :then 'false :else 'ok))
13:40	clojurebot	(if (> 3 9) (quote false) (quote ok))
13:43	clgv	,(symbol "wait what?")
13:43	clojurebot	wait what?
13:44	clgv	:D
13:44	coventry`	,(keyword "I know, I know")
13:44	clojurebot	:I know, I know
13:45	amalloy	coventry`: fwiw, if you were actually trying to write a macro to simulate the non-sexp-friendly 'if, i'd suggest using :syms rather than :keys, so that it looks like (iif t then x else y)
13:46	coventry`	That clever macro was clgv's actually.
13:46	amalloy	or, really, not using & {...} at all, because you know some genius is going to write (if t else y then x)
13:46	amalloy	well, it's your fault for having the same first letter as him. you get all the credit now
13:47	coventry`	Learning a new destructuring trick and undeserved credit for it. Such a deal!
13:48	amalloy	coventry`: see also :strs
13:48	amalloy	handy for destructuring deserialized json
13:48	bbloom	amalloy: and a major reason why i simply don't believe in keywordize-keys :-)
13:49	clgv	amalloy: I just implemented it such that the given example runs ;)
13:50	amalloy	clgv: wellllll...his given example included the keyword :else'ok, which sounds like something an orc would say
13:52	AWizzArd	haha
13:52	clgv	amalloy: automatic error correction - I purchased that brain addon last week -seems to work ;)
13:58	jcromartie	oh, clojure-test-mode, where have you been all this time?
13:59	nullptr	jcromartie: melpa? :)
14:00	technomancy	wait... clojure-test-mode is not good software =\
14:01	jcromartie	OK wait
14:01	jcromartie	no it's not
14:01	jcromartie	why does it run more tests every time I run C-c C-,
14:02	jcromartie	WTF
14:04	technomancy	it's just a big monkeypatch
14:05	gtrak	funny to see monkeypatch nouned.
14:05	gtrak	conjures a field a monkeys.
14:05	gtrak	of*
14:05	shaungilchrist	https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRklQbX8XAroKzht35BqhfkAjZrBP2zB2zg7cv7thN0QSIPUeHMOw
14:06	gtrak	monkey patches: https://www.google.com/search?q=monkey+patch&es_sm=122&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=iyNpU471BPLCyAGd1ICgCg&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAg&biw=950&bih=478
14:07	jcromartie	WHYYYYYYYY
14:07	jcromartie	I'm scared
14:10	jcromartie	ok but seriously, why does C-c C-, keep adding to the tests that are run every time?
14:10	jcromartie	maybe I need to RTFS
14:19	guns	Does tools.analyzer{,.jvm} provide enough information to build a tool that detects if a Closeable object is closed in the same scope in which it is created?
14:20	guns	Setting up the analyzer takes a bit of work, so I thought I'd ask here first
14:22	bbloom	guns: could maybe do something for very simple cases, but determining that sort of thing more generally requires abstract interpretation. the analyzers are lexical
14:22	guns	bbloom: Do you think it would be possible at least for type hinted forms?
14:22	amalloy	guns: imagine (let [c (Closeable.) f (fn [x] (.close x))] (f c))
14:23	amalloy	you have to know a lot about the lambdas you're calling to realize that this really is closed inside its creation scope. is that part of the goal?
14:24	bbloom	guns: what you can do: detect and warn if a closable local comes in to existence but is not directly passed to a with-open call
14:24	bbloom	anything beyond that requires symbolic execution
14:24	bbloom	guns: it also won't work for deftype and other runtime-created types that may implement Closable
14:24	bbloom	guns: again, that would require symbolic execution
14:25	guns	amalloy: Unfortunately, I don't see the problem with that
14:25	guns	bbloom: I was hoping that the analyzer was capable of this. There is an Eclipse plugin that purports to do something similar
14:26	bbloom	guns: the analyzer serves the needs of a static compiler
14:26	bbloom	guns: and lexical macros
14:26	waynr	gws: that might help
14:26	bbloom	guns: it does not aim to do dynamic analysis of any kind
14:27	bbloom	guns: i believe core.typed does some symbolic execution, however. ambrosebs ?
14:27	amalloy	i'm curious what that eclipse plugin thinks of {final Closeable x = whatever; y = new Runnable() {public void run() {x.close();}}; y.run();}, and the same thing with the y.run() excluded
14:27	ambrosebs	bbloom: what does that mean?
14:27	amalloy	and i guess the same thing with: if(true) y.run();
14:28	guns	amalloy: I suppose it would respond "maybe closed". It looks like it checks for a literal try or try-with-resource
14:28	bbloom	ambrosebs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbolic_execution
14:32	ambrosebs	bbloom: seems like a bit of a stretch. core.typed isn't that smart.
14:32	bbloom	ambrosebs: don't you do some kind of occurrence typing?
14:32	ambrosebs	ah yes
14:32	ambrosebs	I get it
14:33	ambrosebs	there's a separate proposition environment that relates bindings + paths to types
14:33	ambrosebs	helps with branch elimination and other things
14:34	bbloom	ambrosebs: guns was wondering if he could use tools.analyzer to identify obviously broken usages of Closeable objects
14:34	bbloom	i told him probably not, but core.typed might be able to stretch to do it
14:35	ambrosebs	bbloom: like don't close things twice?
14:35	ambrosebs	etc
14:35	bbloom	guns: ?
14:35	bbloom	i figured like not use a try/finally construct such as with-open
14:35	guns	No, just warn that Closeable objects should generally be closed within the same scope
14:36	guns	not looking for 100% accuracy
14:36	ambrosebs	the area of affine types is related to resource management in type systems
14:37	ambrosebs	I've been looking at it recently, I'm not sure if it fits with core.typed.
14:37	ambrosebs	http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~tov/pubs/alms/tovpucella-alms.pdf
14:38	ambrosebs	guns: is it easy to tell where Closeable things are created/scoped?
14:38	ambrosebs	do you need a full type system to figure it out?
14:39	ambrosebs	Affine types could enforce programmers use transients correctly.
14:40	guns	ambrosebs: A fn that is tagged as a Closeable type, and use of the new form could tell you where a Closeable is created, no?
14:40	guns	And multiple .close calls on Closeable objects are not generally a problem
14:41	guns	False positives are also not a problem; this would be a developer tool
14:41	ambrosebs	I don't know anything about Closeable tbh
14:42	ambrosebs	could you give an example?
14:42	guns	there's not much to know; classes implementing Closeable represent resources that should be manually closed
14:42	guns	Readers Writers, etc
14:42	guns	InputStreams
14:42	ambrosebs	ahk
14:43	ambrosebs	what's a bad example of using Closeable?
14:43	guns	Closing resources at the same scope in which they are created is a sane way of dealing with them; like RAII
14:43	guns	ambrosebs: not closing an open file handle :)
14:44	amalloy	false positives aren't a problem, huh? i got your tool right here: (constantly true)
14:44	guns	amalloy: :). one step closer
14:45	guns	I guess I'll take a look at the Eclipse plugin and see if can be extracted for general use
14:45	mikerod	So, is it true that the `map-><record-name>` factory ctor function created via `defrecord` is actually much slower than calling the "real" ctor or the `->recordname` factory ctor performance-wise?
14:46	mikerod	I tried profiling a bit
14:46	ambrosebs	guns: it sounds possible. Would like to see some real macroexpansions of good/bad usage, I could comment more precisely
14:46	mikerod	map-> definitely seems to get much slower when called many many times
14:46	mikerod	*I mean the performance diverges from the others quite a bit
14:47	mikerod	It seems the hot spot comes down to <record-class>#create method
14:47	amalloy	mikerod: i would be surprised if it were close to being as fast
14:47	mikerod	amalloy: it is much slower when I call it over 1mil times or so
14:48	amalloy	(Record. x y z) is one constructor call. (map->Record {:x x :y y :z z}) is at least three map lookups, plus probably three dissocs, and then a constructor call
14:49	mikerod	I was seeing ~50618.376 msecs for 10million calls to map-> vs. ~17.204 msecs for 10mil calls to -> vs. ~8.771 msecs for the actual ctor
14:50	mikerod	amalloy: I figured there was some overhead happening. I actually saw bad performance degradation when I switched to map-> since I had a record with a lot of args; positional gets ugly
14:50	mikerod	However, looks like I will need to be keeping positional around for now :)
14:51	amalloy	i don't think it should be three thousand times slower
14:52	amalloy	you said "much slower", which i think is true: it should be like three times slower
14:52	mikerod	amalloy: hmmm
14:52	guns	ambrosebs: https://gist.github.com/guns/bc722e7ffd9ad1ee92ee
14:52	mikerod	When my perf issue initially came up it was in a complex scenario. However, the numbers I just ran I stripped down to just a `dotimes` loop
14:52	guns	example file handle leak I wrote recently
14:53	mikerod	The only interesting part was that I'm dealing with a record of about 15 fields. Maybe that weighs in... I cannot figure out where this #create method is generated for a defrecord.
14:54	ambrosebs	,(source with-open)
14:54	clojurebot	Source not found\n
14:54	amalloy	mikerod: clojure.lang.Compiler$NewInstanceExpr/emitStatics
14:54	coventry`	Why can't (io/file file) close itself when it goes out of scope and is gc'd?
14:55	mikerod	amalloy: ah, hidden int he Compiler
14:55	amalloy	do you have the code for your example dotimes?
14:55	mikerod	in the*
14:55	amalloy	coventry: File objects don't need to be closed
14:55	ambrosebs	guns: what you want is simple to write.
14:55	coventry`	amalloy: Well, the FileInputStream in guns's example, then.
14:56	amalloy	and these things do close themselves when they get GCed. but since no correct program can rely on garbage collection being run ever, that's too late
14:56	ambrosebs	guns: use tools.analyzer to recurse down the macroexpansion until you hit a :let
14:56	ambrosebs	https://github.com/clojure/core.typed/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/typed/check.clj#L4398
14:56	amalloy	what if you opened one file per millisecond, on a machine with 5TB of ram? you'd leake file handles for hours before the garbage collector felt any pressure
14:56	coventry`	amalloy: Oh, I see.
14:57	amalloy	http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2010/08/09/10047586.aspx is a good article about gc philosophy
14:58	guns	amalloy: That's just one kind of leak; closing resources is a good practice
14:58	dbasch	file descriptor leak has always been an issue to watch out for in Java
14:59	mikerod	amalloy: I tink I can get one up
14:59	Jaood	is clojure.java.io just a wrapper to java.io ?
14:59	mikerod	*think (can't type today)
14:59	guns	amalloy: Thanks for the lead! this is the answer I was looking for
14:59	guns	ambrosebs: ^ meant for you
14:59	amalloy	bbloom: guns is thanking you
14:59	amalloy	oh, ambrosebs? okay. bbloom brought ambrosebs in
14:59	guns	and bbloom :)
15:00	ambrosebs	guns: the details should be straightforward, let me know if you get stuck
15:00	rolfb	jcromartie: seems like there's a lot of bugs in your solution
15:01	rolfb	re https://www.refheap.com/85181
15:01	rolfb	or, one atleast ;)
15:01	rolfb	try calling it with [1 2 3]
15:02	bbloom	amalloy: guns: ambrosebs: :-)
15:03	amalloy	rolfb: yeah, he needs to add an (inc) in between (count v) and (range 2)
15:03	amalloy	and also, oh my god, that ->> makes things completely illegible
15:03	rolfb	what's the difference between -> and ->> ?
15:03	rolfb	is it as simple as left to right and right to left?
15:03	amalloy	,(macroexpand '(->> 1 (f x y z)))
15:03	clojurebot	(f x y z 1)
15:03	amalloy	,(macroexpand '(-> 1 (f x y z)))
15:03	clojurebot	(f 1 x y z)
15:03	dbasch	rolfb: where they expect the argument
15:04	rolfb	amalloy: interesting trick
15:04	rolfb	i'm called away, ttyl, thanks for information :)
15:06	foofoobar	someone coding clojure in atom (atom.io editor) ?
15:08	amalloy	mikerod: you can also inspect the bytecode for MyRecord/create, which is probably easier than trying to understand the assembly stuff in the compiler
15:12	amalloy	for a record with three args, (map->MyRec m) is basically (let [x (:x m), m (dissoc m :x), y (:y m), m (dissoc m :y), z (:z m), m (dissoc m :z)] (MyRec. x y z nil (not-empty m)))
15:13	amalloy	whereas (->MyRec x y z) is (MyRec. x y z nil nil)
15:13	mikerod	amalloy: hmm, yeah decompiled is easier
15:13	mikerod	I'm trying to reproduce
15:13	mikerod	my minimal attempt to reproduce got me about a 3x slow down, as you anticipated
15:13	mikerod	https://gist.github.com/mrrodriguez/e2138f220a9aa7eacc20
15:14	mikerod	However, my real example had a more "complex" map as the argument to map-> factory
15:14	mikerod	so I'm trying to see what could make the difference
15:14	amalloy	mikerod: oh man, that benchmark is no good
15:14	amalloy	you're timing the creation of the map as well as turning it into a record
15:14	amalloy	(let [m {...}] (time (dotimes ...))) is what you need
15:16	amalloy	also, use criterium instead of time/dotimes - hugod is better at benchmarking than you or i
15:19	mikerod	amalloy: Valid points, I'm fairly sure my original code didn't suffer from timing the map creation as well. I was observing very significant slowdown in my real example, and I don't think it was called anywhere near 10mil times.
15:19	mikerod	This is a good library though that I wasn't aware of.
15:19	mikerod	*looks good
15:24	agarman	I ran with criterium... map->MyTest 4 microsecond on my rig vs new taking 17 nanoseconds
15:25	agarman	5 microseconds actually
15:25	amalloy	mikerod: in a way, though, a thousand times slower isn't crazy for a record with many keys, since dissoc/get have linear performance on maps with just a handful of keys
15:25	PigDude	is there update-in for single case?
15:25	amalloy	so doing a linear number of them takes quadratic time
15:25	PigDude	i forgot the name, pretty sure there is a function for this
15:26	gtrak	PigDude: nah.
15:26	PigDude	like how swap! works but for replacing a key
15:26	PigDude	gtrak: hm ok
15:26	gtrak	just a weird quirk :-)
15:27	dbasch	PigDude: you mean like clojure.set/rename-keys ?
15:27	mikerod	amalloy: There is an interesting comment and re-implementation of defrecord in the Prismatic schema library. https://github.com/Prismatic/schema/blob/master/src/clj/schema/macros.clj#L407
15:27	PigDude	dbasch: nah, just for updating a value in-place
15:27	mikerod	It seems they make the claim that map-> is "400x slower" than the -> factory
15:28	gtrak	I believe it.
15:28	PigDude	hm so is this the idiomatic way to append to a list in a hash? (update-in h :the-vec (partial concat appended)) ?
15:28	gtrak	but 400x slower is still pretty fast.
15:28	{blake}	"No facts were checked. Is that what you wanted?" Well, no, midje, that's not what I wanted. Any hints on how to make :autotest actually, you know, =test= when a file is changed?
15:28	PigDude	er, [:the-vec]
15:28	gtrak	PigDude: looks reasonable.
15:28	arrdem	now if only schema could generate schemas from xss source...
15:29	PigDude	gtrak: there's not some shorthand for partial that i'm missing is there?
15:29	PigDude	gtrak: kinda wordy :P
15:29	amalloy	PigDude: if you're appending, you probably should have a vector rather than a list
15:29	PigDude	amalloy: right, a vector, sorry
15:29	amalloy	and then you can just use into, instead of partial concat
15:29	gtrak	PigDude: could just use it without the partial.
15:30	gtrak	(update-in h [:the-vec] concat appended)
15:30	PigDude	ah, i see
15:30	gtrak	update-in uses apply and supplies the first arg to concat.
15:30	gtrak	appended would be the second.
15:30	PigDude	amalloy: how does into differ from concat?
15:30	PigDude	amalloy: besides concat taking several collections
15:31	amalloy	&(into [1 2 3] [4 5 6])
15:31	gtrak	concat returns a lazy seq, into is essentially reduce+conj
15:31	amalloy	,(into [1 2 3] [4 5 6])
15:31	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4 5 ...]
15:31	amalloy	i hate all bots
15:31	PigDude	,(= (into [1 2 3] [4 5 6]) (concat [1 2 3] [4 5 6]))
15:32	clojurebot	true
15:32	PigDude	oh ok
15:32	gtrak	that's because equality doesn't care about seq vs vector.
15:32	amalloy	PigDude: but one of those is a vector, and the other is a lazy seq
15:32	gtrak	'equality partitions' or whatever.
15:32	PigDude	so (update-in h [:k] into v2)?
15:32	gtrak	beautiful
15:33	PigDude	thanks for the help, i am still pretty new to clojure
15:33	arrdem	remind me why we don't have clojure.core/update ....
15:33	gtrak	because we're lazy bastards
15:33	arrdem	(inc gtrak) ;; truth hurts
15:33	arrdem	riiight. I'm bot ignored.
15:33	lazybot	⇒ 9
15:34	amalloy	arrdem: what does (clojure.core/update m a b c d e) do?
15:34	bbloom	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1251
15:34	arrdem	bbloom: cheers, voted up
15:35	arrdem	amalloy: bbloom's link is perfect :P
15:35	amalloy	arrdem: no, it doesn't address the question i asked
15:35	gtrak	throws an error.
15:35	amalloy	okay, three
15:35	amalloy	er
15:35	arrdem	amalloy: oh, in that case I'd accept an arity assertion failure or an identity update.
15:36	amalloy	arrdem: but the point is, are a/b, c/d, etc alternating pairs of key/function? or are they varargs to be passed to a single update function on a single key?
15:36	amalloy	ie, (update-in m [a] b c d), or (-> m (update-in [a] b) (update-in [c] d)))
15:37	amalloy	(ignore the e, because i can't count)
15:37	gtrak	ah, I guess the second behavior is more intuitive, michael church's update could be given a different name.
15:38	gtrak	more inline with the other functions.
15:38	gtrak	in<space>line
15:38	arrdem	amalloy: ah. yeah I'm with gtrak, being able to do multiple updates with a single form is cute, but I'd rather have as you say varargs (more like update-in) than have to use partials for multiple updates.
15:38	bbloom	i didn't read the ticket closely
15:39	bbloom	i'd also prefer varargs
15:39	gtrak	update-multi?
15:39	amalloy	arrdem: that's exactly the opposite of what gtrak said, i think
15:39	gtrak	amalloy: but I think I agree with what arrdem just said.
15:39	amalloy	anyway, what i'm getting at is that the reason there's not already a clojure.core/update to mirror clojure.core/assoc is because it's not clear what it should do, and reading it isn't obvious
15:40	arrdem	gtrak: I vote that you are an inconsistent node and should be ignored...
15:40	gtrak	arrdem: It's probably for the best.
15:40	gtrak	I reserve the right to change my opinion instantly and tell noone.
15:42	gtrak	arrdem: did you see the mailing list thread about the varargs map? I thought it was funny.
15:42	gtrak	while you were having finals.
15:42	arrdem	gtrak: neg. that I'm back here is a poor choice I'll remedy once the coffee's done brewing
15:43	gtrak	basically, they were like
15:43	gtrak	'Did cognitect suddenly change their position on varargs map-destructuring? Can anyone confirm or deny??!??!'
15:44	ambrosebs	ninja edit
15:44	foofoobar	I just read on the LightTable website that it is written in ClojureScript. How can this be? I thought ClojureScript is compiled to javascript?
15:45	gtrak	foofoobar: yes
15:45	arrdem	hahahaha oh right I tweaked the wiki :P
15:45	foofoobar	gtrak, so LightTable is written in javascript?
15:45	arrdem	foofoobar: and it runs on node
15:45	gtrak	foofoobar: https://github.com/LightTable/LightTable/tree/master/src/lt
15:45	foofoobar	oh, okay. Thats interesting! I did not know you can create GUI applications with node
15:46	gtrak	foofoobar: node-webkit is the shell that runs it all: https://github.com/rogerwang/node-webkit
15:47	gtrak	essentially it allows node.js to share memory with the browser dom JS transparently.
15:47	foofoobar	Okay. This is nice! LightTable looks awesome!
15:47	gtrak	so you can start up a system tray menu and mutate the dom in a single function :-)
15:48	cbp	hopefully they keep developing it, in view of that aurora thing =/
15:48	gtrak	foofoobar: I have a tiny example of node-webkit from cljs right here: https://github.com/gtrak/node-cljs-template/blob/master/src-cljs/src/cljs_app/node_bits.cljs
15:49	foofoobar	gtrak, thanks, I'll have a look at it.
15:50	gtrak	it boots up a system tray and the main window of the app, I do that manually so there's no visible page-load delay.
15:51	kelseygi	what are reasonable JVM opts for a lil app running on a 1gb machine?
15:52	gtrak	kelseygi: I heartily recommend the G1 collector for lower memory usage with no downside, if run with -server.
15:52	kelseygi	ooh, a hearty recommendation!
15:52	gtrak	-XX:+UseG1GC
15:53	gtrak	I think later versions of 6 can do it, but I haven't tested, 7 and 8 are great with it.
15:53	kelseygi	howsabout heap size & the such
15:54	gtrak	probably less than your max memory. If it gets too big, stuff might be paged out and you'll have swap-hell. The jvm isn't super intelligent about responding to what's happening at the OS level.
15:54	gtrak	G1 at least is more aggressive about freeing unused heap back to the OS.
15:57	gtrak	I was running a few JVMs on my dev-laptop, it got unusable without it on 8GB, since it's 2 jvm's per lein process, and I had a few going at once, plus some other stuff.
15:58	kelseygi	yeah this is for an extremely silly twitter bot
15:58	kelseygi	and i decided to have a go of deploying it myself on a lil server
15:58	kelseygi	but it's slooooooowwwwww to boot up
15:58	kelseygi	and tends to die
15:58	kelseygi	so i'm thinking i'm doing something incorrect
15:58	gtrak	why's it die?
15:59	kelseygi	i'm not sure tbh--i'm just doing nohup lein trampoline run, nothing very clever or, uh, nice
15:59	gtrak	there's no error or anything?
15:59	kelseygi	i'm sure there is but i don't think i'm saving it unfortunately
15:59	gtrak	heh, well, you should probably figure that out before you tweak jvm opts blindly.
16:00	kelseygi	oh hush, voice of reason
16:00	kelseygi	haha i think at first it was because i wasn't using trampoline
16:00	kelseygi	i don' tknow, it doesn't seem to respect nohup
16:00	kelseygi	it seriously takes like 5 min to start up though which is nuts
16:01	PigDude	what's this operation called?
16:01	PigDude	,(let [x 13] (- x (rem x 3)))
16:01	clojurebot	12
16:01	gtrak	remainder?
16:01	PigDude	this is a compound operation
16:01	kelseygi	but it's also connecting to twitter so that could be another weak point? i have a long blog post about logging in clojure bookmarked :)
16:02	justin_smith	PigDude: truncate-to-multiple-of-3 ?
16:02	gtrak	kelseygi: if you could attach a jvisualvm process to it, that might tell you something.
16:02	gtrak	but you should be logging stuff for sure.
16:02	kelseygi	yes yes
16:02	PigDude	eh nevermind :P
16:02	arrdem	well if nohup isn't doing it, just run it in screen or at :P
16:02	kelseygi	i tried screen!
16:02	gtrak	but it makes no sense for nohup to be the problem.
16:03	gtrak	unless it does.
16:03	kelseygi	haha
16:03	gtrak	we can't know that until we know why.
16:03	kelseygi	known knowns, and known unknowns...
16:03	coventry`	What about a signature of (update m :key1 fn1 other-args1 :key2 fn2 other-args2), where other-args are seqs of values?
16:03	gtrak	kelseygi: you can simplify further, don't run it from lein, use an uberjar.
16:04	kelseygi	oh that's a good idea
16:04	justin_smith	kelseygi: lein uberjar; java -jar target/yourapp.jar
16:04	justin_smith	much better startup time if you find the need for restarts
16:04	justin_smith	also it's better not to run lein on production anyway
16:05	coventry`	(update m (fn1 k-or-ks1 other1 args1) (fn2 k-or-ks2 other2 args2)) seems like a pretty handy macro, actually.
16:05	kelseygi	there's a lot of things i'm doing here that are not really "production" quality...
16:05	kelseygi	but if you tweet "can i kick it" to @abotcalledquest it now responds with "yes you can"
16:05	kelseygi	very critical stuff :)
16:05	kelseygi	uberjar is a good idea though
16:05	kelseygi	will try that after work, thank you!
16:05	justin_smith	np
16:06	justin_smith	if nothing else it will restart faster after a crash if it is an uberjar :P
16:06	arrdem	heh
16:09	gtrak	kelseygi: https://www.youtube.com/v/t5CZJwB5R2k&start=18&end=26
16:09	kelseygi	lololol
16:10	noonian	i can't wait for prismatic to release some of their other libs
16:10	noonian	all of their talks are like teaser trailers for their unreleased stuff lol
16:13	kelseygi	the blog post if anyone's interested: http://nerd.kelseyinnis.com/blog/2014/05/06/talking-to-yourself-a-twitter-bot-in-clojure-by-a-total-newb/
16:13	kelseygi	the sequels, about switching to streaming API and then deploying, will feature a lot more cursing
16:16	gtrak	kelseygi: were you the one asking about chunking in the streaming API?
16:16	kelseygi	yup!
16:16	gtrak	ah ok.
16:16	kelseygi	i got it working with atoms
16:16	kelseygi	but also got some good feedback on making it better
16:16	gtrak	err wait, that was a different guy.
16:16	gtrak	Simon Katz.
16:17	gtrak	kelseygi: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/clojure/twitter$20api/clojure/dLMjY2i9tCg/voplu7ek9XQJ
16:18	kelseygi	oh sweet!
16:18	kelseygi	i did get to play with atoms to get it running which was pretty cool
16:18	gtrak	not sure if this should make it back into twitter-api or what.
16:18	gtrak	but you can see my core.async impl there.
16:18	kelseygi	i opened an issue and he basically said "nope"
16:18	kelseygi	thank you, rad!
16:18	seangrove	I want to walk through a tree, picking off a key at every node, and collate them all into a single collection - or ideally, into a hashmap, with the path to the value as the key, and the value at the path as the value, and I want to do it with the absolute minimum pressure on the GC. What's the best pairing of tools?
16:19	kelseygi	here is mine, which is terrible https://github.com/kelseyq/clojure-twitter-bot
16:19	kelseygi	but i am like 10 days into clojure :)
16:19	seangrove	I could easily map through it, flatten the list, and then into {}, but that feels very wasteful if I care about gc
16:19	gtrak	my core.async code is write-only at this point.
16:19	gtrak	I have no idea how to test it.
16:20	arrdem	seangrove: flatten is almost certainly the wrong answer...
16:20	arrdem	seangrove: I'd probably build a custom recursive walk, or even an iterative worklist walk.
16:20	gtrak	seangrove: filter+tree-seq?
16:20	arrdem	,(doc tree-seq)
16:20	clojurebot	"([branch? children root]); Returns a lazy sequence of the nodes in a tree, via a depth-first walk. branch? must be a fn of one arg that returns true if passed a node that can have children (but may not). children must be a fn of one arg that returns a sequence of the children. Will only be called on nodes for which branch? returns true. Root is the root node of the tree."
16:20	arrdem	damnit clojure y u so osum
16:22	gtrak	I used it on a massive clojure.data.xml thing to great effect.
16:22	seangrove	gtrak: That doesn't help me trak the path into the tree, and still going to be rough on gc
16:22	seangrove	I'll play around with it a bit more though
16:22	gtrak	but it was relatively flat, I assume if it's not flat, then that takes up space.
16:22	seangrove	thanks gtrak
16:23	stompyj	xml?
16:23	clojurebot	xml is like violence; if it's not working, you're not using enough of it.
16:23	stompyj	red flag
16:23	stompyj	:D
16:23	arrdem	:D
16:23	technomancy	~botsnack
16:23	clojurebot	thanks; that was delicious. (nom nom nom)
16:24	stompyj	remember the days of CORBA, and RMI, and WSDL, and XML
16:24	stompyj	man
16:24	stompyj	what the hell were we all thinking
16:24	stompyj	the saddest thing was, I was on board with it at the time
16:24	arrdem	I heard about CORBA from my software engineering lecturer and was promptly glad that I grew up with json-rpc
16:25	stompyj	the late 90s were a rough ride
16:25	stompyj	heh
16:25	arrdem	I was about five at the time >.>
16:25	stompyj	hahahahah
16:26	stompyj	I was 18-ish cough
16:26	stompyj	so I can claim architectural ignorance
16:27	gtrak	stompyj: I once felt bad about getting turned down from a gig due to not having enough experience with OO. They used CORBA.
16:27	gtrak	this was only 5 years ago.
16:27	stompyj	O_O
16:27	arrdem	hahahahaha
16:27	arrdem	oo?
16:27	stompyj	We now have proof purgatory exists
16:28	gtrak	it's in Florida, at Harris corp.
16:28	stompyj	Did they want ERwin experience? LOL
16:30	stompyj	sorry, I’ve taken us to some dark corners here
16:30	stompyj	(dec stompy)
16:30	lazybot	⇒ -1
16:30	gtrak	I'm really glad now that I didn't get that job, I might've taken it.
16:30	stompyj	yeah man, you’d be hating life right now
16:36	mordocai	I have emacs 24.3.1 with the lasest cider and nrepl packages from melpa and am having an issue where errors are not printed to the cider repl. If I connect through lein I see the errors. I googled this a bit, but most results were talking about errors with older versions of nrepl and/or cider. Any ideas?
16:36	mordocai	latest*
16:37	arrdem	mordocai: you're running cider 0.7.0, you need to add cider-nrepl to your lein profile
16:37	arrdem	mordocai: it's an unannounced breaking change from the Cider maintainer :D
16:37	mordocai	arrdem: Ah, i'm new to clojure. Can you give step by step directions or a link? :P
16:37	arrdem	$google cider-nrepl
16:37	lazybot	[clojure-emacs/cider-nrepl · GitHub] https://github.com/clojure-emacs/cider-nrepl
16:38	gtrak	except 0.7.0-SNAPSHOT is probably what you want.
16:38	mordocai	Ah, nice. Right at the top. Thanks!
16:38	gtrak	still churning a lot right now.
16:38	arrdem	mordocai: you want to add [cider/cider-nrepl "0.6.0"] to your profile, not the .1-SNAPSHOT
16:38	mordocai	gtrak: That's what it reports
16:38	arrdem	fuck snapshots
16:38	gtrak	arrdem: 0.6.0 is totally broken.
16:39	arrdem	gtrak: for real? working on both my machines...
16:39	gtrak	ok, maybe not totally.
16:39	arrdem	heh.
16:39	gtrak	try doing M-. on a function with a map-arglist.
16:39	arrdem	mordocai: gtrak is one of the contribs, I'd go with what he says :P
16:40	gtrak	0.6.1-SNAPSHOT has an asm dependency that's broken for my work-project.
16:40	gtrak	0.7.0-SNAPSHOT should be relatively stable now.
16:41	gtrak	we'll do a real release next time, I promise :-)
16:41	arrdem	gtrak: <3
16:42	gtrak	I was hoping to add CLJS support and be done with it, I'm ending up just being dependency and stability police.
16:43	mordocai	Alright, seems to work now. Thanks!
16:43	gtrak	b/c I hate breaking people.
16:43	mordocai	On with "The Joy of Clojure"!
16:44	PigDude	in python / is an integer division operator, so 5/2 = 2. what's the equivalent in clojure?
16:44	gtrak	,(int (/ 5 2))
16:44	clojurebot	2
16:44	nightfly	(/ 5 2)
16:44	clojurebot	5/2
16:44	PigDude	gtrak: thanks
16:44	gtrak	long's probably better, actually.
16:44	gtrak	since the rest of clojure uses longs
16:44	gtrak	,(long (/ 5 2))
16:44	clojurebot	2
16:44	pyrtsa	,(quot 5 2)
16:44	clojurebot	2
16:45	gtrak	ahh, I like that better
16:47	amalloy	seangrove: i'm curious what you're doing that you think optimizing for gc is necessary
16:48	bbloom	amalloy: he's trying to run a layout engine smoothly during browser resizing
16:49	amalloy	ah. if you're not on the jvm, optimizing for gc is not unreasonable
16:55	mordocai	Alright, so emacs crashed on me -.-. In any case, now that I restarted emacs i'm back where I started despite having the profiles.clj. However, now cider reports version CIDER 0.7.0alpha instead of SNAPSHOT. What'd I do wrong this time? :(
16:55	arrdem	mordocai: that's the expected CIDER version.'
16:55	arrdem	mordocai: did you add that plugin to your ~/.lein/profiles.clj?
16:56	mordocai	arrdem: Ah, well before it said snapshot. And now it isn't working again (same symptoms, no error reporting). My profiles.clj is what it was before which is "{:user {:plugins [[cider/cider-nrepl "0.7.0-SNAPSHOT"]]}}"
16:56	mordocai	Do I need to change that to alpha or something?
16:56	arrdem	mordocai: that should be the 0.6.1-SNAPSHOT
16:57	arrdem	unless gtrak says that's silly.
16:57	gtrak	mordocai: that sounds reasonable.
16:57	gtrak	0.7.0 should be working.
16:57	mordocai	Ah, kk. I thought he was saying it should be 0.7.0
16:58	mordocai	gtrak: Back to working when I change it to 0.6.1-SNAPSHOT. I could help you debug if you can tell me how to get debug info with 0.7.0
16:59	gtrak	really? that's very odd.
16:59	gtrak	I'm using 0.7.0 all day without issues.
16:59	arrdem	gtrak: 0.7.0 or -SNAPSHOT...
16:59	gtrak	snapshot
16:59	gtrak	lemme try updating my cider version to what's on melpa.
17:00	arrdem	better do a git-commit and tag first...
17:00	arrdem	just in case everything breaks >.>
17:00	gtrak	meh
17:00	seangrove	amalloy: user-land layout in the browser
17:00	gtrak	dogfooding.
17:01	amalloy	crashed emacs? i've found that almost impossible; the best i've managed is to once or twice send it into an unresponsive coma
17:02	mordocai	gtrak: It looks completely different btw, if that helps. With 0.6.1-SNAPSHOT I get a buffer nrepl and with 0.7.0-SNAPSHOT I got a cider localhost or something along those lines.
17:02	mordocai	amalloy: Yeah, that's actually what happened
17:02	amalloy	which?
17:02	mordocai	amalloy: coma
17:02	amalloy	ah
17:03	amalloy	mordocai: did you try C-g? i once thought it was dying but really it was just busy working on a task that was never going to finish
17:03	seangrove	amalloy: It's too slow for production use, and GC is dominating everything
17:03	amalloy	and C-g woke it right up
17:03	mordocai	amalloy: Yeah, I tried C-g. I have no idea what happened, I was messing with a lot of package related stuff trying to get Cider working though
17:03	gfredericks	amalloy: I swear I've got it to segfault a few times
17:03	amalloy	seangrove: yeah, bbloom filled me in, and i conceded that if you're not on the jvm then thinking about gc is reasonable
17:03	gtrak	mordocai: cider-nrepl should have no effect on what buffers cider sets up.
17:03	seangrove	amalloy: I would 100% prefer not to think about it at all :(
17:03	gtrak	I can't see how that could be the case.
17:04	seangrove	Or at least not in this goddamn goat-entrails-reading approach
17:04	Bronsa	amalloy: I've had emacs crash on me multiple times (I use it through emacsclient)
17:04	amalloy	gfredericks: you could just use sudo and /dev to muck with its address space. that should get you a segfault right quick
17:04	gfredericks	amalloy: oh I didn't mean intentionally
17:05	gfredericks	but that's an interesting capability I was unaware of
17:05	arrdem	/proc is an amazing thing :P
17:06	amalloy	yeah, i actually meant /proc
17:06	gtrak	/dev/kmem russian roulette?
17:06	amalloy	although you could probably do it with /dev/kmem if you knew how
17:06	amalloy	actually debian doesn't expose kmem anymore afaict. just /dev/mem
17:06	gtrak	'2 or more players do execute "dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/kmem bs=1 count=1 seek=$RANDOM" successively. The one who crashes the computer has to make a beer run, brew coffee or whatever you like.'
17:07	arrdem	gtrak: you need to clarify the rules so that it's iterative with random choice of the first "player"
17:07	amalloy	https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/Features#dev-kmem "There is no modern user of /dev/kmem any more beyond attackers using it to load kernel rootkits."
17:08	arrdem	but but how can I play with writing my own rootkits then...
17:08	arrdem	T_T
17:08	amalloy	and people playing silly games. c'mon, ubuntu, get with the program
17:10	arrdem	looks like Arch doesn't expose /dev/kmem anymore either...
17:10	gtrak	latest 0.7.0-SNAPSHOT and latest melpa's working fine for me.
17:11	gtrak	I recommend it b/c it should stop the freezing issues.
17:11	gtrak	though my attempt at a wrap-exceptions nrepl-middleware left me with more questions.
17:11	gtrak	I don't feel comfortable merging it in yet.
17:14	mordocai	gtrak: Okay, so weird shit on my end. May be seomthing with my setup specifically. Short overview http://paste.debian.net/97845/
17:16	gtrak	cider repl localhost seems to tell me this is being run outside of a project?
17:16	justin_smith	amalloy: re crashing emacs, there are some low level ops in elisp that can totally segfault if misused
17:16	gtrak	mordocai: I haven't tested that at all.
17:17	gtrak	there's a lot of edgecases in leiningen around that.
17:17	mordocai	gtrak: I've been running it outside of a project the whole time I think. Just a raw .clj
17:17	Bronsa	justin_smith: my emacs used to crash from time to time while opening Compiler.java
17:17	Bronsa	or while resizeing the terminal
17:17	gtrak	mordocai: try making a project, then we'll make an issue if that fixes it.
17:17	technomancy	are you guys running from trunk or something?
17:17	mordocai	gtrak: Kk, one sec
17:17	gtrak	technomancy: lein-trunk?
17:18	technomancy	gtrak: emacs trunk
17:18	technomancy	I've seen one of two segfaults when I ran from trunk, but it's been years.
17:18	arrdem	I've never had emacs straight up crash. I've killed it with JVM system memory usage, but never had it crash
17:18	technomancy	not since before 23 was released anyway
17:18	gtrak	I'm using ubuntu 14.04's standard emacs24
17:19	arrdem	oh good they finally have emacs24... no more janky PPAs for 24.
17:19	gtrak	arrdem: that's been the case for a couple years :-)
17:19	gtrak	but you had to explicitly install emacs24
17:19	gtrak	technomancy: do you think running outside of a project would have issues with nrepl-middlewares by cider-nrepl's plugin mechanism?
17:20	gtrak	I've never tried.
17:20	gtrak	but I also don't see what would be different about 0.6.1-SNAPSHOT vs 0.7
17:20	gtrak	in that regard.
17:20	technomancy	gtrak: seems unlikely, but possible
17:20	technomancy	hard to think of how that would affect an nrepl middleware
17:21	technomancy	do you have a link to the source?
17:21	mordocai	gtrak: I'm about to try it now, setup a project and nrepl seems to figure that out with the working version. Going to try 0.7.0
17:21	gtrak	yea: https://github.com/clojure-emacs/cider-nrepl/blob/master/src/cider_nrepl/plugin.clj
17:22	technomancy	gtrak: hm... one of those artifacts that's a plugin and a dependency at the same time?
17:22	gtrak	yea
17:22	gtrak	bad idea?
17:22	gtrak	I stole it from cemerick
17:23	technomancy	when I used to do that with swank it was more trouble than it was worth
17:23	gtrak	arrdem: http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=emacs24 13.10 had it
17:23	arrdem	gtrak: ah. I was on 13.04 at work last summer.
17:23	gtrak	13.04 also
17:24	technomancy	gtrak: but yeah, I can't see anything here that would run differently outside a project vs inside
17:24	cemerick	technomancy: you said something about it before, I think. What were the problems? Haven't had any complaints yet, but that doesn't mean much.
17:24	technomancy	cemerick: well, this was before we could slurp the version at runtime, so we had to maintain the two numbers by hand
17:25	seangrove	Automatic type conversion...
17:25	technomancy	my gut still tells me it's better that different things remain different, but I don't know if I have any concrete warnings.
17:25	arrdem	technomancy: on that note... thoughts on having project version be (slurp "VERSION.txt")? :P I recall getting that to work before...
17:25	mordocai	gtrak: Alright, seems to work with a project
17:25	gtrak	mordocai: phew
17:26	technomancy	arrdem: you can read pom.properties
17:26	gtrak	I'll try to investigate it sometime.
17:26	mordocai	gtrak: Got cider-repl learning-clojure and errors are reported
17:26	gtrak	cemerick: while I got you here, I'm working through tools.nrepl dependency stuff. Would you consider that to be hokey? I ended up making a new middleware that manually composes the other middlewares.
17:27	gtrak	next step I guess is to try to reproduce the descriptor metadata and make a test case. The impl code is non-obvious to me.
17:30	gtrak	mordocai: https://github.com/clojure-emacs/cider-nrepl/issues/57 if you feel like investigating it more yourself.
17:30	mordocai	How do I force the cider-repl to reload files btw? Like it appears it automatically evaluated core.clj, but i've now made a change to that file.
17:31	mordocai	gtrak: I may take a look later, focusing on just clojure right now :P
17:31	gtrak	you can do that with tools.namespace
17:32	gtrak	mordocai: I'm not sure, I don't dev that way. When I make a change I'll eval the form with C-x C-e or the file with C-c C-k
17:32	gtrak	I like full control.
17:32	arrdem	you can also just C-c C-k the file, or (require '[] :reload)
17:32	stompyj	I was defending clojure in a haskell/clojure thread and the dude who’s comments I gently eviscerated downvoted me… annoying
17:33	arrdem	stompyj: welcome to the haskell/clojure jihad, here's your paper shield enjoy the rain of downvotes
17:33	justin_smith	technomancy: not running from trunk, but operating on fairly low level stuff in the way emacs represents buffers, with bugs in my elisp code
17:33	stompyj	arrdem: LOL
17:34	arrdem	stompyj: fighting in the shade isn't as easy as it would seem...
17:34	stompyj	If I had known he was going to downvote me anyway, I would have at least verbally destroyed him in the thread
17:35	arrdem	heh. Idk... the Haskell vs. Clojure thing is something I'm still struggling with.
17:35	stompyj	I’ve never used Haskell, I have a buddy who uses it and seems to dig it tho
17:36	stompyj	This one guy was just outright lying about clojure, so I corrected his points, very nicely and got downvoted for my efforts :)
17:36	amalloy	i don't know that you can gently eviscerate something
17:36	gtrak	amalloy: it takes a long time.
17:36	stompyj	(inc gtrak)
17:36	lazybot	⇒ 10
17:36	Raynes	Also pics or it didn't happen.
17:37	stompyj	precisely
17:37	arrdem	TIL stompyj is a Bolton
17:37	stompyj	hahahahah
17:38	stompyj	That’s the last house I’d be for!
17:38	arrdem	hehe. The north remembers
17:38	stompyj	Why isn’t there a “X language is like Y house in GoT” yet?
17:38	stompyj	Thats what I should have responded to that dude with “Winter is coming."
17:39	Raynes	I'm hoping because people are getting sick of the internet dripping with GoT references.
17:43	stompyj	it’s been fun to see it translated to tv
17:43	arrdem	I watched the first two seasons, read all the books before the 3rd and am now enjoying the ride.
17:44	TEttinger	Raynes: you like unusual music, right? http://youtu.be/qubi8F7H6qA
17:44	arrdem	that said the show's visuals often mismatch with my imagination so there's some jarring.
17:46	stompyj	yeah, tyrion is much too attractive
17:46	stompyj	he’s like a hobbling sack of potatoes in the book
17:47	technomancy	arrdem: too young to remember that happening with lotr? =)
17:47	arrdem	technomancy: shhhh I'm trying to blend in with the grown ups
17:47	cbp	its time for some scaphism
17:47	justin_smith	TEttinger: a cross of one of the most popular songs of the '80s with one of the most popular songs of the '90s - perhaps it is not weird but rather an exponential degree of normalcy
17:48	gtrak	oh man. I watched LOTR first, then read the books, then watched the movies again, and they were not like I remembered them at all.
17:48	gtrak	way worse
17:48	coventry`	justin_smith TEttinger: I'm enjoying it.
17:49	TEttinger	justin_smith: maybe listen to the rest of the album, Mouth Sounds has some very weird stuff on it. I'm a fan of the quintuple-mashed http://youtu.be/S0ya2pjrSjY
17:51	stompyj	I watched all three LOTR movies back to back in a movie theater here in NYC
17:51	stompyj	and I’ve never recovered
17:51	stompyj	I haven’t even watched The Hobbit
17:51	stompyj	it broke me
17:52	arrdem	all three in one sitting? ouch. I've done that but with like bathroom breaks, beer, friends, popcorn and daylight..
17:52	stompyj	yeah
17:52	stompyj	it was too much
17:52	coventry`	I guess these youtube songs will last just as long as they stay unnoticed by the RIAA. :-)
17:53	noonian	i tried all the lotr in a basement with friends but afterward i just felt depressed; also they were the extended editions :(
17:53	TEttinger	they're also available from his site, which offers, cleverly, a download link via MEGA
17:53	arrdem	the extended editions are totally better...
18:05	gtrak	TEttinger: I like the Billy-Jean Smells like Teen Spirit mashup more than the one you linked.
18:05	TEttinger	indeed.
18:05	TEttinger	it's not easy listening
18:15	saolsen	has anybody tried using fixed memory pools for anything in clojurescript? I have some core.logic code I want to execute in an inner game loop and it evaluates fast enough but allocates and frees so much memory the gc runs for way longer than a tick
18:17	gtrak	you mean like an array?
18:17	gtrak	didn't know JS had such a thing.
18:18	gtrak	but you could look to vertigo for inspiration? https://github.com/ztellman/vertigo
18:18	saolsen	well, core.logic runs on top of a bunch of custom types
18:19	saolsen	pairs and vars and cons thingies
18:19	mdeboard	Is Hiccup pretty much the de facto HTML thinger for COmpojure? I've found that I'm kind of clumsy with it
18:19	justin_smith	saolsen: yeah, I think you would have to use a subset of the language that does not allocate to reimplement the functionality you want
18:19	saolsen	but I was thinking maybe, since at the bottom they are just js object, I could keep a bunch of them around and reuse them with some good old fashon dirty mutation
18:20	mdeboard	Would really like to just write HTML and put variables in place a la erb templates
18:20	technomancy	mdeboard: it's definitely the most obvious way to start
18:20	gtrak	mdeboard: laser, enlive, selmer are some alternatives.
18:20	justin_smith	saolsen: the problem is that the core.logic code is probably using heap allocation, and I'm assuming you can't really change that
18:20	gtrak	luminus comes with selmer.
18:22	saolsen	Couldn't I just rewrite the constructors of all those objects to pull from a cache? It would be heap allocation at first but then I could reuse them.
18:22	arrdem	saolsen: now you're building your own garbage collector...
18:22	justin_smith	exactly
18:23	gtrak	saolsen: if the data is repetitive, you might benefit from memoization.
18:23	saolsen	yeah, but just a little one :)
18:23	mdeboard	technomancy, gtrak, thanks
18:23	arrdem	saolsen: size has no impact on the difficulty of correctness unfortunately..
18:23	turbofail	well building your own garbage collector isn't insane if you know you can throw everything you've allocated away every frame
18:24	arrdem	saolsen: if you have some very very simple use pattern like turbofail mentioned, then you could build a refcounting GC and do manual allocation pretty reasonably.
18:24	arrdem	saolsen: what you _really_ want to do is probably not do manual allocation but have manual transients.
18:26	saolsen	I'm not sure what that means
18:28	coventry`	saolsen: Did you use any tools to identify the core.logic structures as the culprits? seangrove and I are running into similar issues, and it would be great to have a systematic way to identify where the garbage is coming from.
18:31	saolsen	No I would love to know that. I can take a heap snapshot from chrome's tools and it sorts by constructor but those don't seem to map to the clojure constructors.
18:31	ztellman_	gtrak: I think you're the only person who suggests vertigo to anyone
18:31	gtrak	hehe
18:31	ztellman_	I still haven't even rewritten the Go AI using it yet
18:32	coventry`	saolsen: Yeah the options for debugging this kind of thing in js seem very limited.
18:32	gtrak	ztellman_: that's the risk you take by open-sourcing a lib.
18:33	gtrak	but there was a guy on the ML that was actually trying to use vertigo for C interop.
18:34	gtrak	just yesterday
18:34	coventry`	I thought that was kind of the idea.
18:34	arrdem	ouch my brain
18:34	gtrak	coventry`: the idea was arrays-of-structs
18:34	gtrak	which the jvm can't do very easily.
18:35	coventry`	"...can also make interop with C libraries significantly simpler and more efficient."
18:35	gtrak	supposedly, if you have a direct-mapped bytebuffer, you can just send pointers over to C
18:35	gtrak	I haven't tried.
18:36	saolsen	I wish I could tell chrome I want to know all the allocations that happen within a specific function
18:36	saolsen	like you can tell chrome "time this function"
18:52	sdegutis	Is there a superior method for transforming [[:a 1] [:b 2]] into [[:a :b] [1 2]] than (apply mapv vector p)? Thank you for your time, good bye.
18:53	arrdem	(juxt (partial map first) (partial map second))?
18:54	noonian	,(doc juxt)
18:54	clojurebot	"([f] [f g] [f g h] [f g h & fs]); Takes a set of functions and returns a fn that is the juxtaposition of those fns. The returned fn takes a variable number of args, and returns a vector containing the result of applying each fn to the args (left-to-right). ((juxt a b c) x) => [(a x) (b x) (c x)]"
18:54	sdegutis	That does not seem superior.
18:54	sdegutis	I tried (map (juxt first second)) at first, but that's just (identity) here.
18:54	arrdem	agreed, just the next "one liner" that came to mind.
18:54	noonian	,((juxt keys vals) (into {} [[:a 1] [:b 2]]))
18:54	clojurebot	[(:a :b) (1 2)]
18:54	arrdem	noonian's answer is my #2
18:55	ztellman_	gtrak: what, really?
18:55	ztellman_	link?
18:55	arrdem	noonian: nice to meet you Dr. Soong
18:55	noonian	arrdem: you too! I think you're the only one here who got the reference
18:55	gtrak	ztellman_: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/clojure/vertigo/clojure/Z0j9rizY6uQ/crkbrtda4soJ
18:56	ztellman_	haaaaa
18:56	ztellman_	but yeah, .address() on a direct byte buffer
18:56	ztellman_	works a treat
18:58	gtrak	ztellman_: I'm just in it for the frankensteins
18:58	gtrak	I find useful monsters amusing.
18:59	arrdem	there's a certain elegance in every monster...
18:59	gtrak	even numbered-trolling
18:59	ztellman_	gtrak: the Antlr parsing of the Eclipse disassembler certainly qualifies
19:01	gtrak	maybe emacs is someone else's double-troll.
19:01	gtrak	why do I always hate it so much but continue to use it.
19:02	technomancy	emacs is like this spectre that reminds us of the fact that we could all be using lisp machines today except we screwed everything up, so it rightly mocks us.
19:03	gtrak	yea, that's about right.
19:03	arrdem	technomancy: you say that, but I'll keep pointing to the atrocious memory profile of even the Symbolics machines as reasons that they were doomed from the beginning...
19:04	coventry`	Yeah, this experience with js gc is making me think that part of the reason functional programming and data structures have taken off is that we can now often afford the overhead.
19:06	bbloom	a major reason for the poor behavior of GCs is that they assume mutability
19:06	technomancy	arrdem: we put a man on the moon. that kind of thing isn't insurmountable.
19:06	arrdem	technomancy: and we did it with magnetic core wire memory that was read-only...
19:08	gtrak	arrdem: immutability mofos
19:11	dyreshark	coventry`: also fp tends to be easier to make parallel, and just about everyone is saying "yeah, so we're going to get more cores, but we don't plan on making them TONS faster unless a miracle happens"
19:11	sdegutis	Thank you.
19:15	justin_smith	bbloom: do you have a cite for the gc assuming mutation thing? sounds interesting
19:24	seangrove	justin_smith: I assume https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtUtfARSIv8 should have something in there
19:24	seangrove	Haven't watched it yet
19:27	seangrove	I feel like Haskell's GC is in a very privileged position and should be able to do some fantastic things
19:28	turbofail	http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ImmutableObjectsAndGarbageCollection
19:31	dyreshark	justin_smith: also this has a bit on things they had to do in the Rubinius GC in order to collect concurrently in a mutable environment http://rubini.us/2013/06/22/concurrent-garbage-collection/
19:32	dyreshark	specifically, it starts near "Tri-color invariant and concurrency" IIRC
19:37	justin_smith	(inc seangrove)
19:37	lazybot	⇒ 4
19:37	justin_smith	(inc turbofail)
19:37	lazybot	⇒ 3
19:37	justin_smith	(inc dyreshark)
19:37	lazybot	⇒ 1
19:37	justin_smith	thanks guys
19:48	seangrove	Speaking of immutable GC, and perf in generaly, etc., how is this possible? http://jsperf.com/performance-frozen-object/25
19:51	yedi	seancorfield: just wanted to say your om-sente example is so much more useful than the regular sente example
19:52	justin_smith	seangrove: I wonder if maybe when an object is sealed, the hash table is cleaned up and optimized so that lookups can be faster? Also, I would assume there are certain locks or checks that can be avoided after sealing.
19:52	seangrove	justin_smith: Sure, but it should be faster, not slower
19:52	justin_smith	oh, wow, I misread :)
19:53	justin_smith	looks like some anti-optimization happened
19:53	dbasch	seangrove: perhaps there’s more overhead in the seal check than in the lookup itself
19:53	seangrove	There must be some interesting challenges involved, or maybe they haven't had time to optimize
19:53	seangrove	dbasch: It's sealed pre-test
19:54	justin_smith	seangrove: he said the seal check, which I assume happens at lookup
19:54	dbasch	seangrove: I know, but perhaps the lookup checks that it’s sealed for some reason, and if it’s sealed does something
19:54	seancorfield	yedi: cool, glad it helps someone!
19:54	seangrove	dbasch: Ah, sorry. Could be, yeah
19:54	dbasch	that lookup is so ridiculously fast that it probably obscures everything else
19:55	amalloy	seangrove: speculation: before seal it's internally represented as a hashmap, and x['a'] does the fastest thing, look something up in a hashmap. after that, it's turned into an object, to speed up calls like x.a; when you do the "unexpected" x['a'] instead, it has to fake it up on top of the actual struct
19:55	dbasch	in fact, I would assume sealing an object means there’s extra work to make sure you don’t try to alter it
19:56	dbasch	after all, mutation is free just like not checking array bounds is free
19:56	seangrove	dbasch: Surely only on assignment though, not on read
19:57	seangrove	amalloy: Interesting idea, definitely
19:57	amalloy	dbasch: but you are allowed to mutate a sealed object's properties
19:57	amalloy	you just aren't allowed to add or remove properties
19:57	dbasch	,([1 2 3] 4)
19:57	clojurebot	#<IndexOutOfBoundsException java.lang.IndexOutOfBoundsException>
19:58	amalloy	which suggests that what they're doing is changing the storage layout to optimize particular kinds of access
19:58	seangrove	amalloy: I think you're not allowed to...
19:58	turbofail	hm. those two run at the same speed for me in firefox
19:58	seangrove	amalloy: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/Object/freeze
19:58	amalloy	seangrove: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/Object/seal
19:58	amalloy	you're looking at freeze, not seal
19:58	turbofail	though i suspect firefox may be cheating
19:59	seangrove	amalloy: Ah, yes, sorry, being sloppy today
20:00	amalloy	i'd be interested to see how the test behaves using o2.a instead of o2['a']
20:01	dyreshark	entirely uninformed speculation: if `freeze` changes the layout of the object at all, it may be causing a perf penalty in Chrome. i read a blog a while back where a V8 engineer said that modifying object layout causes a pretty big perf penalty. no clue if that still applies/applies here, but it's a thought
20:02	turbofail	it shouldn't be changing the object layout during the course of the benchmark
20:03	jcromartie	I am all about aligning my lets, conds, and map literals
20:03	jcromartie	among others
20:04	jcromartie	I wish it were easier to do it in an editor
20:04	jcromartie	oh
20:04	jcromartie	https://github.com/gstamp/align-cljlet
20:04	coventry`	jcromartie: How do you handle long destructurings?
20:05	jcromartie	they can get mexs
20:05	jcromartie	messy
20:05	jcromartie	but for map destructures I like to put the destructured variable one space to the right of the furthest-right form in the map
20:05	jcromartie	if that makes any sense
20:05	jcromartie	but like I said, they get messy
20:05	technomancy	I hate being torn between going to look up how to do that alignment stuff and being That Guy who introduces non-aligned lines to an otherwise aligned function.
20:06	jcromartie	but like for conds and simple lets, at least, I think it makes a huge difference in readability
20:07	jcromartie	it should just be considered polite
20:07	jcromartie	if anybody has to read your code
20:07	jcromartie	and it also exerts a design pressure on your code
20:07	amalloy	jcromartie: it makes a big difference in maintainability, too - you're impolite to the technomancys of the world, who want to edit your code
20:07	jcromartie	yes, exactly
20:07	lemonodor	aligning always breaks down eventually. so i tend not to even start.
20:07	amalloy	maybe i want to add a clause to the let, and the sensible variable name is 10 characters long
20:08	amalloy	but you've lined everything up to 5-character names. what do i do?
20:08	amalloy	i curse you under my breath and use a shitty name
20:08	coventry`	I should add logic to align-cljlet so it gives up if the LHS extends too far to the right.
20:09	coventry`	amalloy: Put in your def with 10-char name and hit C-c C-a, which you've bound to align-cljlet. :-)
20:09	jcromartie	coventry`: I just did that exactly
20:09	hiredman	does it matter what color the walls are painted when the house is on fire?
20:09	lemonodor	i do wish clojure’s let used an extra level of nesting, like common lisp’s. i guess that ship has sailed :(
20:09	amalloy	meh. i forked align-let to make it work with clojure, when i had to put up with aligned code
20:09	dbasch	dyreshark: freeze doesn’t cause a performance penalty (for me on Chrome) but seal does
20:09	amalloy	but i'm not happy about having to put up with such code
20:09	jcromartie	I don't mind doing it by hand, which I did before I literally just discovered align-cljlet 5 minutes ago
20:10	jcromartie	amalloy: what do you mean "put up with"?
20:10	jcromartie	you mean having the standard imposed on you?
20:10	dyreshark	dbasch: ah, ok
20:10	jcromartie	surely you can't be opposed to reading aligned forms
20:11	coventry`	Moving the setup in that jsperf test to the initial html doesn't change the result.
20:11	amalloy	i don't mind reading it, except that in the back of my mind i know some poor sap will have to edit it. and it's not like it's any more readable
20:12	coventry`	It's the same readability if you're going through the code linearly, but it makes it a bit easier to look up a specific definition.
20:12	coventry`	Not much compared to doing an incremental search, though.
20:13	amalloy	hiredman: i'm not sure which part of this is the fire and which is the walls
20:13	jcromartie	I disagree, I think it's much more readable at a glance
20:13	jcromartie	it adds more visual hierarchy to the code
20:13	jcromartie	that's never a bad thing
20:14	jcromartie	particularly with cond
20:14	amalloy	jcromartie: xml has lots of visual hierarchy. "never a bad thing" is comically false in that context
20:14	jcromartie	you see the tests and results grouped
20:15	lemonodor	it can be a little nicer to read. i’ve just decided that the advantages are not usually outweighed by the disadvantages
20:15	technomancy	why not implement it as a render-time hack?
20:15	coventry`	When that gets confusing, I generally start using ";; =>" between the tests and results.
20:15	lemonodor	er, i mean are outweighed.
20:15	technomancy	just don't touch the source on disk
20:15	amalloy	the problem with aligning is that code is either so small that aligning it doesn't really help (it's perfectly legible anyway) or so large that aligning it doesn't help (it's too large to be made legible just by adding some alignment)
20:16	jcromartie	the primary disadvantage being that introducing a change to the length of one line in the left-hand column means changing all the lines in the form in SCM
20:16	nullptr	+1 for render time hacks, ala http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Glasses.html
20:16	coventry`	(add-to-list 'magit-diff-options "-w")
20:17	amalloy	coventry`: try -b instead. it's a more-aggressive -w
20:17	quizme	hi, sorry if this is off-topic, but the #grails channel is pretty dead. I am trying to use clojure within a grails project, but getting "java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clj-time.core".
20:18	amalloy	quizme: you don't have clj-time on your classpath, and whatever clojure code you're using expects it. i don't know if you grails guys use maven or what, but something should be fetching clj-time from clojars's maven repo
20:19	coventry`	Thanks, amalloy
20:19	quizme	I copied clj-time-0.7.0.jar from ~/.m2 into GRAILS_APP/lib, and in ./src/clj/core.clj I put (ns (:require [clj-time :as t]))
20:22	justin_smith	quizme: this makes it look like you can do it the right way (that is declare an artifact / version and have it automatically taken care of) http://grails.org/doc/2.3.7/guide/conf.html#dependencyResolution
20:22	quizme	http://pastebin.com/x6VQ3Z9r
20:23	justin_smith	quizme: manually copying the jar into lib/ shouldn't be the right way to do it, even if it did actually work
20:23	quizme	justin_smith: i'll try that thanks
20:29	bbloom	justin_smith: seangrove: GHC doesn't make too much use of immutability b/c lazy thunk cells are inherently mutable
20:29	seangrove	Ah, fair enough
20:29	danielcompton	I'm using cider with emacs, is there any way to stop it doing a round robin on open windows when I evaluate results?
20:29	bbloom	Erlang, on the other hand, actually can enforce the ordering constraint provided by immutability
20:29	danielcompton	i.e. each time I throw an exception it puts it in a different window
20:30	seangrove	bbloom: I thought the Elixir post you linked to was pretty cool, other than the strange tone.
20:30	bbloom	that, plus the fact that there are agent-local tasks, is part of the reason erlang can have such a simple GC and perform reasonably well
20:30	seangrove	"This is good shit", "a pain in the bottom"
20:30	bbloom	elixir is cool
20:32	coventry`	There's a good deal of back-and-forth about that on the C2 page turbofail linked earlier. E.g., "The trick is that immutable data NEVER points to younger values. Indeed, younger values don't yet exist at the time when an old value is created, so it cannot be pointed to from scratch. And since values are never modified, neither can it be pointed to later." (A quote from the Haskell page, apparently.)
20:32	coventry`	*a Haskell page
20:34	quizme	i hate grails
20:34	gtrak	danielcompton: if you figure this out, let me know :-)
20:35	danielcompton	gtrak: it's driving me up the wall
20:35	gtrak	I'll investigate.
20:36	danneu	danielcompton: never found a solution to it. ideally the stacktrace would pop up on one of those buffers you can dismiss with `q`
20:36	danielcompton	danneu: It does pop up in a dismissable buffer but it's a different one every time
20:36	gtrak	you can dismiss it with q, but it doesn't go there automatically.
20:36	danneu	man, i can't even get that to work
20:37	danielcompton	I feel like I need to stop everything for a month and just study Emacs
20:37	danneu	my 'solution' for the past year was to just turn it all off so that the top line of the stack trace shows up in the minibuffer. it's cool as long as i never make mistakes
20:37	gtrak	danielcompton: found it.
20:37	danielcompton	At the end of the month I'd have a foot long grey beard
20:38	danielcompton	gtrak: do tell
20:38	gtrak	in cider-interaction.el there's a defcustom "cider-auto-select-error-buffer" default to nil.
20:38	gtrak	so you do whatever defcustom does to make that truthy.
20:38	gtrak	should be truthy by default, imo.
20:38	gtrak	but I've been meaning to figure this out, so I'll find out right now.
20:39	gtrak	aha, custom-set-variables
20:40	gtrak	put this in your init.el: (custom-set-variables '(cider-auto-select-error-buffer t))
20:40	nullptr	if you want to do that via custom, M-x customize-variable
20:40	nullptr	it will write that for you
20:40	gtrak	eval it, and you're good to go.
20:41	gtrak	nullptr: I don't trust it, because I don't understand it.
20:41	coventry`	Should I be using custom-set-variables rather than setq?
20:41	gtrak	i think that's the point of defcustom
20:41	technomancy	meh
20:41	gtrak	listen to technomancy
20:42	technomancy	unless you're doing something visual like face changes, I'd recommend just treating everything like regular elisp
20:42	justin_smith	the tricky thing is if you have setq plus custom-set-variables - then whichever one is loaded last wins
20:42	nullptr	i typically use setq for things that i want the same everywhere, and custom for env-specific things
20:42	justin_smith	but the customize interface will warn you if something was changed out of custom-set-variables
20:43	nullptr	some people setq everything, some people use custom for everything
20:43	nullptr	good to be familiar with both imho
20:44	nullptr	at the least, custom frees you from having to know the difference between setq/setq-default, and is less likely to stomp changes after lib load if they are set out of sequence
20:45	technomancy	for the most part customize comes across as just a way to let you avoid learning elisp
20:45	technomancy	which I do not understand at all
20:45	quizme	justin_smith maybe I could just use gen-class
20:46	gtrak	I tried using the custom faces menus and whatever, it was really opaque and I gave up after a while.
20:46	gtrak	I have derision towards good UIs, emacs's seems pretty pointless.
20:46	justin_smith	quizme: that seems like a nonsequitor to our previous discussion - how would gen-class help you resolve your deps?
20:47	quizme	justin_smith package all the deps into a stand-alone jar
20:47	danielcompton	It's still doing the round robin thing for me
20:47	justin_smith	so make an uberjar then, no need for gen-class
20:47	gtrak	like how the hell are you supposed to use them without knowing what's going on underneath, it's like using javadoc instead of looking at the code.
20:47	gtrak	danielcompton: but is it letting you hit 'q' to get out of it?
20:47	gtrak	round-robin is just how emacs makes new frames.
20:48	danielcompton	Yeah it always did that part
20:48	quizme	justin_smith then how do i invoke the method from grails ?
20:48	danielcompton	I had that sorted :)
20:48	justin_smith	quizme: still, you should be able to declare a dep and have grails resolve it and set up your classpath - that's like 80% of what a tool like that is for
20:48	justin_smith	invoke what method?
20:49	quizme	justin_smit the clojure method that i want to invoke from within grails.
20:49	gtrak	danielcompton: there looks to be some esoteric rules to this: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Window-Choice.html#Window-Choice
20:50	danielcompton	emacs and esoteric are likes peas and carrots
20:50	gtrak	personally, I'm 100% ok with it now that it throws me over to it.
20:50	justin_smith	quizme: you can use clojure.lang.RT to call clojure code from any jvm lang http://clojurefun.wordpress.com/2012/12/24/invoking-clojure-code-from-java/ I think there is something easier now too but I am not finding the link
20:51	quizme	justin_smith I tried to add it to BuildConfig.groovy 's dependency section and added clojure to the list of repos but it still gave the same error.
20:51	gtrak	I was hitting C-x o a bunch before, now I don't have to.
20:51	amalloy	justin_smith: clojure.java.api.Clojure was added in 1.6
20:51	justin_smith	amalloy: ahh, yeah, that is the one I was looking for, thanks
20:51	justin_smith	quizme: yeah, if you want clojure 1.6+ you should use clojure.java.api.Clojure
20:52	justin_smith	quizme: did you add clojars?
20:52	quizme	justin_smith yes i did
20:53	justin_smith	OK, I don't know what else to suggest, not being a grails expert myself. But it is using maven, so it is theoretically able to resolve your clojure deps. And you can use "lein uberjar" to make a jar of all your clojure deps if they are all in one project, and then use clojure.java.api.Clojure to invoke the clojure code
20:55	quizme	justin_smith: alright thanks i'll try
20:56	quizme	is 1.6 the recommended clojure version these days ?
20:56	justin_smith	it's the latest stable version, yes
20:56	justin_smith	use it unless you have a pressing reason to use an older one
20:56	amalloy	1.5.1 probably has the most users, but 1.6 is newest, stable, and good. i'm using it in new projects
20:57	quizme	amalloy i c thnx
21:08	danielcompton	When you switch from your default user namespace at the repl, how do you reload all of the repl goodies?
21:08	danielcompton	clojure.core/refer-clojure brings in clojure.core but what about the other parts?
21:08	danielcompton	like doc
21:08	justin_smith	danielcompton: (use 'clojure.repl)
21:08	justin_smith	one of the few valid usages of use
21:10	danielcompton	Thanks, is that the standard way to do it? refer-clojure, use repl?
21:11	justin_smith	I don't find the need to switch out of the user namespace that often myself, but I know other people use the repl differently
21:11	justin_smith	also the (ns) form has an implicit refer-clojure
21:11	justin_smith	so if you load an ns from a file it will have the clojure.core functions bound
21:11	danielcompton	Ah, I was moving to a namespace that didn't exist on disk
21:12	justin_smith	you can still use (ns) from the repl
21:14	danielcompton	Nice, thanks
21:14	danielcompton	,(inc justin_smith)
21:14	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: justin_smith in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
21:14	justin_smith	no need for the ,
21:15	danielcompton	(inc justin_smith)
21:15	lazybot	⇒ 40
21:15	danielcompton	justin_smith ta
21:15	justin_smith	np
21:18	danielcompton	danneu how did you get stack traces in the minibuffer?
21:19	danielcompton	danneu if you set (setq cider-repl-popup-stacktraces f) does that do it?
21:21	seangrove	Any naming convention for mutable objects?
21:22	amalloy	seangrove: no
21:22	gfredericks	!<muta-foo-var>!
21:22	seangrove	amalloy: If only the blink tag worked automatically in emacs...
21:23	amalloy	suggestion: instead of foo, call it plz-stop-changing-foo
21:24	justin_smith	f͗ͧ͐͒̏̑ͮͥ̎̇ͩ̓̾͆̽ͮͦͤ̆͏̶̴̨͉̦̜̳͍̬̭̲̺ͅọ̡͔̪̞͈͎̘ͩ͐̆̇͐̂̃͋ͯ͐͌͆͌̑̔ͣͥ́͢ớ͙͕̱̮̩̬̤͖͈̬̞̉̿̏͗͂̅͐̿̈́ͨͬ̓ͦ͝
21:24	justin_smith	hopefully the above will instill the proper respect
21:25	seangrove	gfredericks: Probably go with something like yours, I think
21:25	gfredericks	(inc me)
21:25	lazybot	⇒ 4
21:25	seangrove	(inc gfredericks)
21:25	lazybot	⇒ 54
21:25	gfredericks	you're welcome, clojure community
21:25	gfredericks	five years from now everybody will be using it
21:26	TEttinger	was hat like 60 combining characters, justin_smith?
21:26	justin_smith	⸘es-mucho-mutable‽
21:26	justin_smith	TEttinger: yeah http://eeemo.net/
21:27	TEttinger	I only saw 4 blobs on one line -- unifont
21:27	justin_smith	TEttinger: interesting - yeah, they are intended to stack http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/zalgo
21:28	TEttinger	https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11914692/zalgo.PNG
21:28	dbasch	,(def Δvariable 1)
21:28	clojurebot	#'sandbox/Δvariable
21:29	TEttinger	,(def Կիրիլիցա "Cyrillic")
21:29	clojurebot	#'sandbox/Կիրիլիցա
21:29	justin_smith	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1732348/regex-match-open-tags-except-xhtml-self-contained-tags one of the best SO answers of all time
21:29	TEttinger	oh I know it
21:30	justin_smith	'tis a classic, we should all know it
21:53	Jaden	clojure sucks. No tail recursion. even worse than ancient lisps like scheme and common lisp. Learn arc or go home.
21:54	arrdem	http://www.arrdem.com/i/troll.jpg
21:54	justin_smith	Jaden: I am home :P
21:54	arrdem	Jaden: you leave home? get a real job...
21:55	ddellacosta	I feel like Jaden actually likes Clojure
21:55	TerranceWarrior	hey arrdem
21:55	arrdem	TerranceWarrior: ACK ACK ACK ACK
21:56	Jaden	I don't like clojure. It piggy backs on the JVM (barf, gag, hurl). Even old lisps like CCL common lisp can make native binaries cross platform without a "VM".
21:56	technomancy	Jaden: http://p.hagelb.org/scsb.png
21:57	Jaden	worst decision ever to piggy on the JVM. It hurts cross platform. It doesn't help.
21:58	arrdem	at least chord tried to be a help vampire...
21:58	arrdem	this guy just comes in slinging mud and thinks he's gonna derail anything...
21:58	arrdem	have fun in /dev/null mate
21:58	Jaden	Look at all you noobs using clojure. Of all the lisps and you choose to go the Java route. Yea that's really cool.
21:59	justin_smith	if you're interested in cool you should check out ruby, that's definitely hip
22:00	Jaden	ruby sucks too, but as a lisp, clojure must be held to a higher standard of review.
22:00	technomancy	not as cool as node.js
22:00	technomancy	node.js is so hot right now
22:01	arrdem	you should check out my hardware node.js project...
22:01	technomancy	http://v8.en.memegenerator.net/instance/43297831
22:02	Jaden	seriously. I want to know. Why would you (in your right mind) choose clojure? Functional programming without recursion? Was the creator drunk?
22:02	nullptr	wow. such node.js. so recurse.
22:02	technomancy	clojure has recursion; we just pretend we don't in order to make schemers mad.
22:02	arrdem	https://twitter.com/doge_js
22:02	technomancy	it's pretty hilarious.
22:03	arrdem	nullptr: please tell me that's you. I owe that person beer for the amount of entertainment they've provided me.
22:03	nullptr	arrdem: i wish i could take credit
22:03	Jaden	Recursion you can't use in a natural way. Yeah, that's great. Defeats the entire point.
22:04	arrdem	every time I just crack up...
22:04	Jaden	I can't believe this is a lisp chat room.
22:04	technomancy	it's worth it for the lulz tho
22:04	justin_smith	databae caught me shardin' lol
22:05	danielcompton	Jaden hot lisps in ur area wanna talk abt abstract academic concepts like wow u dont kno recursion wtf
22:06	arrdem	(inc danielcompton)
22:06	lazybot	⇒ 1
22:07	Jaden	scheme implements recursion naturally. It's such an old language. 2014 and the "modern" langauges can't get it right.
22:07	arrdem	seancorfield: hahaha you taking on Tony Morris is great :P
22:08	gfredericks	Jaden: but if it had a recursive then algorithms wouldn't
22:08	Jaden	I'm done here. Nobody gives a sh*t about recursion.
22:08	technomancy	sweet
22:08	danielcompton	(s/validate FancyMap {"a" "b"})
22:08	danielcompton	(s/validate FancyMap {:foo :f "c" "d" "e" "f"})
22:08	justin_smith	Jaden: it's the internet, you can say shit
22:08	arrdem	danielcompton: wrong buffer...
22:08	danielcompton	arrdem yup :)
22:09	Jaden	nope. Not in the US. FCC regulated and NSA tracked.
22:09	danielcompton	arrdem IRC driven development
22:09	arrdem	danielcompton: if you can get #clojure to write code for you it's totally a thing
22:09	Jaden	goes on your permanent NSA record. truth.
22:11	Jaden	Anyway. I don't want to chat in a room full of "lispers" who don't care about recursion. That's not the kind of place I want to hang out.
22:11	TEttinger	(doc recur)
22:11	clojurebot	I don't understand.
22:11	TEttinger	,(doc recur)
22:11	clojurebot	I don't understand.
22:11	TEttinger	wow is it a special form? must be
22:11	Jaden	Fitting your bot can't do recursion. Expected
22:11	arrdem	TEttinger: yes it is
22:12	justin_smith	TEttinger: don't ruin it, if he thinks recursion doesn't exist in clojure he'll just leave
22:12	bob2	is it school holidays somewhere?
22:12	arrdem	bob2: finals time here...
22:12	TEttinger	we had a bunch of trolls /noticing earlier
22:12	Jaden	Jaden out
22:12	TEttinger	thank god
22:13	jeremyheiler	aww, i was just going to ask him what he thought about types.
22:13	seancorfield	arrdem: seriously, I miss Tony Morris's threads from the Scala lists, back when I was doing Scala in 2009/2010...
22:13	dbasch	at least he didn’t mention Haskell
22:13	TEttinger	huh, hagerstown, Maryland
22:13	gfredericks	I've been there
22:14	arrdem	TEttinger: I love geolocating trolls...
22:14	arrdem	TEttinger: they never see it comming
22:14	seancorfield	but I would really like to hear Tony's opinion on why Haskell isn't more popular...
22:14	justin_smith	oh, it's no use, he's behind 7 proxies, you'll never find him
22:15	seancorfield	Brian McKenna's reason wasn't very helpful "People do not care about working software" :)
22:15	arrdem	justin_smith: that's ok, ,we just start bombing the proxies.
22:15	justin_smith	http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1535523/ anyway I am pretty sure Jaden lives in beverly hills or something
22:15	arrdem	seancorfield: yeah that was fabulous
22:15	nullptr	https://twitter.com/officialjaden/status/329768040235413504
22:18	masconejos	Howdy all. I have a meta/philosophical clojure question I’m hoping someone can help me with.
22:19	masconejos	I’ve been working at learning clojure for a few days by working project euler problems
22:19	masconejos	I’ve noticed that the code I’m writing tends to be very procedural and not very “idiomatic clojure” like
22:20	justin_smith	masconejos: using atoms as if they were variables?
22:20	arrdem	seancorfield: IMO it's because most of the Haskell people I've met are in it for the borderline masturbatory use of mathematics backed type theory rather than for some higher goal like utility or productivity. The consequent pervasive use of mathematical terminology and lack of willingness to abandon or familiarize it I see as a massive roadblock to entry. Let alone the lack of clear value proposition besides "you don't know what you're missi
22:20	masconejos	no
22:20	masconejos	specifically for propblem 4, I’ve generated this: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2755300/004.clj
22:20	`szx	masconejos: 4clojure.com was a big help for me in the beginning since you could see other people's solutions (not sure if that's the case with project euler)
22:21	masconejos	Looking at solutions at (http://clojure-euler.wikispaces.com/Problem+004) I see my code is very different
22:21	masconejos	however, my code runs in a fraction of the time it takes most of the solutions at clojure-euler to run
22:22	masconejos	It does this by only calculating exactly what is asked for, while most of the clojure-euler answers overcalculate then reduce
22:22	arrdem	seancorfield: I'd be interested to hear what you think on the matter.
22:23	masconejos	Which brings me to my question: is there an idiomatic way to calculate things the way I do, or is project euler not indicative of general programming?
22:23	dbasch	masconejos: your mirror code is just (concat x (reverse x))
22:24	justin_smith	dbasch: well he also puts it in a vector, for whatever reason
22:24	masconejos	Specifically, project euler asks for very specific things, where in more real world programming, you would probably be more likely to process a lot of records in a specific matter, rather than looking for an optimum solution
22:24	rufoa	the loop/recur acting as a for loop isn't nice. could probably refactor that as a filter/range
22:25	masconejos	(I’m having trouble expressing myself clearly, sorry) Now on to addressing your comments..
22:25	justin_smith	rufoa: or even a reduce / reduced
22:25	rufoa	yeah
22:25	masconejos	dbasch: does concat+reverse work on vectors?
22:25	dbasch	masconejos: try 4clojure, it’s better in that respect (up to a point)
22:25	justin_smith	masconejos: do you have a reason to put everything into vectors?
22:25	Jaood	arrdem: is the discussion on the google group thread?
22:26	dbasch	,(concat [1 2 3] (reverse [1 2 3]))
22:26	clojurebot	(1 2 3 3 2 ...)
22:26	justin_smith	masconejos: yes, they get coerced into seqs
22:26	jeremyheiler	masconejos: i feel teh same way about project euler, which is why when i do the problems, i don't worry about the proper mathematical solution and focus on the language i'm learning.
22:26	masconejos	processing a number as a list or vector of digits is faster than doing strings. I chose vectors because it made my numbers appear in the order I wanted overa list
22:27	seancorfield	arrdem: your opinion aligns pretty closely with mine - although you are more eloquent about it :) - but it's not a popular opinion with Haskellers unfortunately :(
22:27	sjy	masconejos: having a quick look at some of those other solutions (and i'm far from fluent in clojure), they seem to be finding products and working out if they're palindromes, rather than finding palindromes and working out if they're products? maybe your solution is just more effective because it's "backwards" like that (compared to the problem statement)
22:27	justin_smith	masconejos: I guess my confusion is you keep forcing things into vector but then don't use any of the features that make vector desirable
22:27	sjy	i don't see why one method or the other would be more idiomatic in clojure
22:27	justin_smith	masconejos: oh, so you mean you wanted vector's conj at end behavior
22:28	arrdem	seancorfield: I'll take eloquence to be willingness to use colorful language in a public/professional forum, but thank you anyway :P idk, as a compilers guy their type system buys them a lot of power and some interesting stuff, but the community is just a total turn off compared to this lot :P
22:29	dbasch	,(reduce #(+ (* 10 %1) %2) [1 2 5 3 6])
22:29	clojurebot	12536
22:29	sjy	arrdem: FP has interesting implications for software engineering and abstract maths, i don't think it's surprising (or bad) that there is a division between the communities that are more interested in one aspect or the other
22:29	dbasch	masconejos: that’s for converting a vector of digits into a number
22:30	masconejos	sjy: I understand why my solution is more efficient: it serches the palindrome space (of which there are 899) rather than the product space of which there are 899^2. MY question is more philosophical. MY code runs better, no question, but it doesn’t feel very clojure-like and it isn’t fun to write. In general, do you think that project euler questions are representitive of what clojure is good for, and rather than
22:30	masconejos	being optimized, should I just be writing (inefficient) idiomatic clojure for the purposes of learning clojure the “clojure way"?
22:30	dbasch	masconejos: you could write the same code much more idiomatically
22:30	masconejos	dbasch: thank you. That is better for vec to it conversion
22:31	justin_smith	masconejos: the idiomatic / efficient concerns are orthogonal in this case
22:31	seancorfield	arrdem: yeah, I like Haskell but actually using it for real world projects is fraught with difficulties (both cultural and technical). I like Elm too. A lot. But I worry that it will be no more than a niche language used by a small fragment of the Haskell community who consider JS to be too dirty to use in their web apps :(
22:31	masconejos	justin: that’s what I was thinking
22:31	rufoa	ime project euler problems weren't particularly interesting as far as clojure's features are concerned, nor particularly well suited to elegant clojure-esque solutions
22:31	rufoa	4clojure wasn't much better but that might not be a popular opinion here
22:31	justin_smith	you could have terser code, using reduce / reduced or maybe in some case iterate rather than loop
22:32	dbasch	masconejos: also you can convert a number into a vector of digits in a one-liner (e.g. via str)
22:33	masconejos	justin: for the purposes fo rpoblem 4, I typically found I wanted to exit a loop when I found what I was looking for, but reduce, maybe iterate, not sure, makes you work through the entire input
22:33	rufoa	lazy seq + first
22:34	masconejos	All in all though, it’s sounding like if I want idiomatic clojure, I shouldn’t worry about efficiency for project euler
22:34	lemonodor	as a clojure beginner, 4clojure helped me. I also did the matasano crypto exercises, and am going through rosalind.info now.
22:34	dbasch	masconejos: you can have both, you have to think in terms of laziness though
22:34	justin_smith	masconejos: reduce short circuits. I think I mentioned REDUCED at least five times.
22:35	`szx	masconejos: you can use reduced to terminate a reduce
22:35	justin_smith	sorry for the all caps but I feel like I have been repeating myself
22:35	sjy	masconejos: i thought you were agreeing with us earlier, that the inefficiency of the other clojure solutions has nothing to do with the fact that they're in clojure
22:35	`szx	heh
22:35	masconejos	re: reduced - didn’t realize that. I was reading ‘reduced’ as past tense of ‘reduce’
22:35	danielcompton	lemonodor: do you have any tips for the matasano crypto exercises? I found it tricky handling byte-arrays e.t.c.
22:35	arrdem	not entirely true... one of these days I'm gonna benchmark some code in sbcl vs in clojure...
22:36	justin_smith	masconejos: it was in a context where I was explicitly saying you could short circuit, also
22:36	arrdem	but to do that I'd have to make myself write Common Lisp so
22:36	masconejos	justin: sorry I misunderstood. Still a beginner and there are so many functions…
22:36	justin_smith	np
22:37	lemonodor	danielcompton: that was actually the first code i ever wrote in clojure, and i’m sure i did it wrong. i just tried to use vectors, mostly.
22:37	dbasch	masconejos: it’s a bit overwhelming at first, but it does get much better over time
22:37	masconejos	sjy: I’m not saying clojure is inefficient. I’m thinking that the project euler questions don’t lend themselves to efficient, terse clojure statements
22:37	dbasch	masconejos: there are so many “lightbulb” moments
22:38	justin_smith	masconejos: if you need conj to have append semantics, the coercion to vector should be done to the arguments coming in, not the value being returned
22:38	dbasch	masconejos: as a beginner, you probably don’t know enough clojure to make that assertion
22:38	masconejos	dbasch: I’ve had a long time love/hate relationship to lisp. I’m fascinated by it, but getting over the learning hump is hard
22:39	masconejos	dbash: that may be true
22:39	masconejos	justin: can you give me an example?
22:39	dbasch	masconejos: I’m sure there’s some eye-opening stuff here: http://clojure-euler.wikispaces.com/
22:40	Raynes	I've never learned anything worth learning that wasn't a bit difficult.
22:40	Raynes	For example: programming.
22:40	Raynes	That took me a bit.
22:40	technomancy	what about eating ice cream
22:40	Raynes	Learning to eat in general.
22:40	technomancy	actually yeah, that does take a while
22:40	bbloom	I'm still learning to eat ice cream
22:40	dbasch	technomancy: the difficult part in eating ice cream is stopping :P
22:41	technomancy	I have firsthand eyewitness proof
22:41	arrdem	breathing was pretty hard too...
22:41	bbloom	I somehow manage to get chocolate on everything every time.
22:41	bbloom	also, i can't be trusted with spaghetti sauce
22:41	masconejos	dasch: that’s the website I was comparing my code against. The answers are all roughly the same except for the ~7th one down by rockman, which I don’t understand the semantics of what he is doing, but its run time is similar to mine
22:43	justin_smith	masconejos: I was refering to the usage of (into []) in get-digits and mirror-palendrome - you had said this was because you prefer the conj behaviour of vectors, but it is being called on the return value
22:43	justin_smith	masconejos: so it is either noise, or some other function needs a vector as input, and it would be more clear if it did the coercion to vector on its arg
22:43	justin_smith	and less likely to randomly break
22:44	dbasch	masconejos: if you had a lazy sequence and did drop-while not-palindrome of that, your code would be equally efficient
22:45	masconejos	justin: I’m not sure what I was doing there. Originally it was a vector, and I obviously changed it around while debugging something-or-other… and then forgot I did so.
22:45	justin_smith	dbasch: dropping non-palindromes would be as efficient as generating all palendromes?
22:46	dbasch	justin_smith: I mean something like
22:46	dbasch	,first (drop-while #(not= 234 %) (range)))
22:46	clojurebot	#<core$first clojure.core$first@195cc92>
22:46	dbasch	,(first (drop-while #(not= 234 %) (range))))
22:46	clojurebot	234
22:46	dbasch	I don’t think I generated all numbers :P
22:47	justin_smith	masconejos: ok, just trying to help - most clojure functions (aside a few notable exceptions like conj get put assoc pop peek) do the same thing on a seq or vector and if what you are doing in your function is not a collection op the behavior should be identical
22:47	justin_smith	dbasch: but he is synthesizing palendromes directly, since we know their structure
22:47	dbasch	justin_smith: ok, I was thinking of something else
22:47	justin_smith	why check all numbers when you know how to generate the structure they have?
22:47	justin_smith	ok
22:48	justin_smith	(I mean all numbers below some limit, of course)
22:49	masconejos	justin: your last comment to me is still in regards to get-digits and digits-to-int, yes?
22:49	arrdem	,[(- 23 21) (- 60 42)]
22:49	clojurebot	[2 18]
22:49	justin_smith	masconejos: yeah, about coercing a seq to vector on output
22:49	dbasch	justin_smith: take-while not-factors
22:50	justin_smith	dbasch: ahh yeah, that would be an equivalent :)
22:50	dbasch	justin_smith: and the lazy sequence generated with palindromes
22:50	justin_smith	and it would be much clearer
22:50	masconejos	justin: I agree. I did something weird there
22:51	masconejos	dbasch: lazy seq generated with palindromes….. that’s a good idea. I’ll have to figure out how to do that
22:51	justin_smith	(doc lazy-seq)
22:51	clojurebot	"([& body]); Takes a body of expressions that returns an ISeq or nil, and yields a Seqable object that will invoke the body only the first time seq is called, and will cache the result and return it on all subsequent seq calls. See also - realized?"
22:52	justin_smith	or probably you could just use map or iterate
22:52	justin_smith	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/lazy-seq old docs but still relevant
22:53	jared314	is clojuredocs.org dead or just slow in updating?
22:53	arrdem	the maintainer got abducted by aliens
22:53	arrdem	or something
22:54	arrdem	so dead
22:54	jared314	is it open source?
22:55	justin_smith	mainly I only end up linking to clojuredocs.org because of http://clojure.org/cheatsheet
22:55	justin_smith	that plus laziness
22:55	danielcompton	When should you use filter vs take-while?
22:55	jared314	if it was open, it could be rehosted
22:55	danielcompton	They seem pretty similar
22:56	arrdem	danielcompton: take-while stops taking, filter doesn't :P'
22:56	rufoa	take-while stops as soon as the condition fails, filter doesn't
22:56	TravisD	danielcompton: take-while wont return anything after the first element of the seq that doesnt' match the predicate, where filter will return all matches
22:56	danielcompton	:facepalm:
22:59	dbasch	,(take-while #(not= 10 %) (range)) ;; danielcompton
22:59	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4 ...)
23:00	danielcompton	I think it's coffee time
23:00	jared314	,(take-while #(not= 3 %) (range))
23:00	clojurebot	(0 1 2)
23:00	justin_smith	,(take 5 (map (fn [i] (let [d (map #(char (+ (int \0) (- (int %) (int \0)))) (str i))] (apply str (concat d (reverse d))))) (range))) ; a starting point?
23:00	clojurebot	("00" "11" "22" "33" "44")
23:01	justin_smith	I am probably doing silly things that could be fixed above
23:04	gtrak	oh man, cider's java support is brilliant.
23:04	justin_smith	really?
23:04	gtrak	now it is.
23:04	gtrak	yea, jeffvalk added a bunch of awesome.
23:05	gtrak	like jump-to-source if you add the source jar to deps.
23:05	gtrak	and javadoc and such.
23:05	masconejos	Well, I have enough to play around with for now. Thank you all for your input.
23:06	technomancy	can you read javadoc using eww?
23:07	technomancy	jared314: you volunteering?
23:07	gtrak	eww?
23:07	gtrak	it opens up chrome
23:07	jared314	technomancy: that depends on if you actually have the source and data
23:07	justin_smith	http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/eww
23:08	technomancy	not me personally
23:08	arrdem	jared314: it was only ever a Ruby wrapper around the Clojure source...
23:08	gtrak	technomancy: sounds possible, the client is doing it.
23:09	technomancy	cool. I hate going to the browser; it's why I never use javadoc if I can avoid it.
23:10	gtrak	ditching inline clojure is really working out.
23:11	technomancy	it wasn't that bad when you could write it as proper forms
23:11	technomancy	but the stuff that had to be strings... ugh
23:11	gtrak	yea, but we need real namespaces and things.
23:12	technomancy	dinc
23:12	gtrak	and tests.
23:12	arrdem	"real namespaces"?
23:12	gtrak	arrdem: cider-nrepl used to be scattered across elisp files.
23:12	gtrak	in snippets
23:13	arrdem	gtrak: ah. I didn't know the context.
23:13	gtrak	it was totally unmaintainable.
23:13	technomancy	still no real namespaces in emacs lisp, sadly
23:14	gtrak	also I couldn't have practically implemented CLJS support like that.
23:14	arrdem	technomancy: isn't there a cl-namespaces library?
23:15	technomancy	arrdem: there are some crackpot code-rewriting macros on the fringe.
23:16	arrdem	lazybot: macros are crackpot code rewriting
23:16	technomancy	sorry, code-walking
23:16	technomancy	and then rewriting
23:19	justin_smith	seems like in theory you could make a namespace out of closures, except for the part where you reference the values in the ns