#clojure – 2014-04-25

2014-04-25

00:03	ddellacosta	kwertii: protocols explicitly do not provide implementation inheritance--this avoids a lot of the problems multi-inheritance in OO brings with it.
00:03	ddellacosta	kwertii: If you want to use the same implementation w/protocols, define a set of functions in a hash-map and use extend-type
00:05	guns	kwertii: Multiple record types doesn't sound that bad on second thought; it's the same as your multiple subclasses implementing one interface.
00:06	guns	using hash-maps with extend-type like ddellacosta suggests also relieves having to write a bunch of macros
00:06	ddellacosta	kwertii: or extends rather
00:06	ddellacosta	whoops, got booted, maybe missed some messages
00:06	guns	ddellacosta: nothing from kwertii yet
00:07	ddellacosta	(extends -> extend)
00:13	kwertii	functions in a hash map + extend-type.. I like it!
00:13	kwertii	Could use a little syntactic sugar, but that's easy enough to make
00:16	danlamanna	is there a naming convention for sort of internal functions? i.e. in emacs it tends to be foo--bar instead of foo-bar
00:16	ddellacosta	danlamanna: maybe -foo-bar? Depending on what you're doing
00:17	ddellacosta	danlamanna: see that in protocol defs mostly I guess
00:17	guns	that's also the default gen-class prefix
00:18	technomancy	danlamanna: I like to attach ^:internal metadata
00:22	arrdem	ddellacosta: I've gotten crap before on PRs for using defn- and -\w+
00:23	ddellacosta	arrdem: ah okay, good to know...what were the complaints though?
00:23	arrdem	it's not like the clojure compiler _really_ lets you hide anyway..
00:23	arrdem	ddellacosta: there was some other legitimate stuff.. lemme go find it
00:24	guns	Everything on the JVM can be .setAccessible. It's just metadata
00:24	arrdem	ddellacosta: https://github.com/aysylu/loom/pull/8/files#r7550133
00:25	arrdem	ddellacosta: the other complaints are legitimate and fixed, but the fixes broke the PR and I haven't had time to rework it.
00:25	ddellacosta	arrdem: that just seems to be..."I don't like functions starting with -" I gotta say. Don't see much rhyme or reason to that complaint, unless the reason is that that is for protocol specifications only (convention-wise)
00:26	arrdem	ddellacosta: I would agree with that assessment. I've seen -\w+ used in core.typed and several other libraries to denote implementation methods, often together with ^:private, but it's not like anything's really private if you don't want it to be so...
00:26	arrdem	(dec so)
00:26	lazybot	⇒ -9
00:27	arrdem	ddellacosta: I know that tools.analyzer also uses the -\w+ convention for implementation detail multimethods with a bootstrap method matching the name body.
00:28	arrdem	but that's just like my opinion man...
00:28	ddellacosta	arrdem: yeah. I would like to see some kind of authoritative list of those kind of conventions now that we're talking about it. Maybe there is one and I don't know about it, but most of what I know I've picked up from reading others' code, and I can imagine that would be inconsistent based on whose code one is reading.
00:28	arrdem	$google clojure style guide
00:28	lazybot	[bbatsov/clojure-style-guide · GitHub] https://github.com/bbatsov/clojure-style-guide
00:28	ddellacosta	arrdem: that doesn't have all of this stuff, does it?
00:28	arrdem	ddellacosta: so there's that... but it's not really maintained and it's totally unenforced. and yeah I don't even know if it covers this.
00:29	ddellacosta	(it is a solid guide though, agreed)
00:29	ddellacosta	arrdem: I think it's a good one for basic formatting, based on my recollection of the last time I read it
00:29	arrdem	I just scanned it and yeah it's more of a formatting/whitespace guide.
00:30	arrdem	there's some other more general advice...
00:30	ddellacosta	arrdem: yeah, I don't see anything like this; the closest it comes to is talking about earmuffs for dynamic stuff, and denoting private functions
00:30	arrdem	,(doc io!)
00:30	clojurebot	"([& body]); If an io! block occurs in a transaction, throws an IllegalStateException, else runs body in an implicit do. If the first expression in body is a literal string, will use that as the exception message."
00:30	arrdem	what the hell... that's a thing!
00:30	arrdem	TIL...
00:30	guns	what's wrong with using ^:private to signal "this is an implementation function"?
00:31	ddellacosta	guns: yeah, I definitely do that
00:31	ddellacosta	guns: the main problem is that that is really (mostly) just informational
00:31	arrdem	nothing. just style. I don't do that because it's meaningless at runtime... but I do kinda like the -\w+ style.
00:31	arrdem	I for one vote that we write a clj-epic-refactor project to autoreformat and autorename every project and symbol on GitHub...
00:31	guns	ddellacosta: that's not a problem; JVM private fields aren't private either
00:32	arrdem	PRs for everyone!
00:32	ddellacosta	it's kind of long for a convention, if you want to treat it like that, and otherwise it's kinda meaningless
00:32	ddellacosta	I suppose
00:32	ddellacosta	arrdem: that sounds terrifying...haha
00:32	arrdem	ddellacosta: the style guide does argue... that defn- is better than defn ^:private...
00:33	arrdem	s/ue.../ue/g
00:33	guns	arrdem: ^:private isn't meaningless; it doesn't show up in (ns-publics) for one
00:33	arrdem	guns: fine, but I can still #' my way to whatever I want and routinely do..
00:33	guns	You can #'reference it at your risk
00:34	guns	exactly. everyone's happy AFAICT
00:34	ddellacosta	gotta go, cheers folks
00:35	guns	plus, doesn't leading dash conflict with the -field notation in CLJS?
00:36	kelseygi	is there a way to sort of "reverse" functions?
00:36	kelseygi	like i'm calling .contains
00:36	kelseygi	and i want to have the first argument second & vice versa
00:36	kelseygi	i know there's ->
00:37	kelseygi	but i'm passing it to another funciton
00:39	guns	kelseygi: do you mean reverse the arguments to a function?
00:39	kelseygi	i do
00:40	guns	you could (fn [& args] (apply f (reverse args)))
00:43	programmer10101	is anyone there?
00:44	guns	everyone, shhh..... programmer10101 is here
00:44	arrdem	only bots here move along
00:44	programmer10101	you guys know of any good channels for java programming?
00:45	arrdem	Java sucks. Clojure sucks. you should go hang out in #haskell and learn a real programming language
00:45	guns	#jsoftware
00:46	guns	try that channel
00:46	jack_rabbit	arrdem, here, here.
00:46	programmer10101	is haskell new?
00:46	arrdem	just came out last week!
00:46	programmer10101	no need for sarcasm
00:47	arrdem	touchy touchy...
00:47	arrdem	http://www.arrdem.com/i/oppinion.gif
00:48	jack_rabbit	It's been around since the 80's
00:48	guns	programmer10101: I was just kidding about #jsoftware. J is an APL descedent
00:48	jack_rabbit	programmer10101^
00:48	guns	descendant
00:49	programmer10101	how do you enter another chatroom?
00:49	arrdem	ls
00:49	lazybot	bin boot dev etc lib lost+found media opt proc sbin selinux srv usr var
00:49	guns	programmer10101: /join #java
00:49	arrdem	tests passing and we've got a troll to play with! http://www.arrdem.com/i/dance.gif
00:49	guns	I think that's what you're really looking for
00:50	programmer10101	thank you guns
00:50	guns	programmer10101: also /list -re regex for searching channels
01:04	ppold	Hi, in the Python world for running backends it is common to have a process manager like Circus or Supervisor, what is the analog of those services in Clojure?
01:07	guns	ppold: Are those just process watchers like monit?
01:07	Jaood	ppold: I guess you could keep using those if you are talking about OS processes
01:09	jgmize	ppold: you might check out https://github.com/puppetlabs/trapperkeeper
01:10	ppold	Thanks guys, yes I think monit also does those tasks, like relaunching the process if it dies, etc.
01:12	guns	ppold: systemd will also do it if you're using a Linux distribution
01:14	ppold	Is it safe to use systemd in Ubuntu 14.04?'
01:16	guns	ppold: You should ask in the ubuntu channel; Canonical made their own init system, so it was never officially supported (though it will be )
01:17	ppold	Yep, last I know is that they are considering moving to systemd in version 14.10
01:18	guns	ppold: You should check out #coreos if you're interested in just systemd + your app
01:18	guns	But anyway, monit and friends work just fine
01:21	ppold	I am using DigitalOcean though, I think it is possible to try CoreOS in Linode
01:32	egghead	is it safe to say that defmethod is a side effect?
01:32	arrdem	ooh yeah
01:34	egghead	i was just kind of confused when a defmethod wasn't listed in ns-publics
01:34	egghead	but I guess if its just modifying the defmulti fn
01:34	arrdem	yep. it's just adding another dispatch fn to the defmulti
03:45	Frozenlo`	Is gzip included/active by default in compojure nowadays?
03:45	Frozenlo`	I remember having to add a middleware for it a couple years ago.
03:45	ordnungswidrig	Frozenlock: i would off-load this to ngnix/apache
03:46	Frozenlock	ordnungswidrig: Ah! I didn't even think about that
03:46	Frozenlock	thanks
03:46	ordnungswidrig	you're welcome
04:06	Glenjamin	Hi guys, is there a lazy equivalent of (into) - or is it lazy but i'm doing something wrong?
04:07	Glenjamin	,(take 10 (into [] (repeat 10)))
04:07	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
04:08	ordnungswidrig	,(take 10 (into '() (repeat 10)))
04:08	clojurebot	#<OutOfMemoryError java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space>
04:13	guns	Glenjamin: concat; into is eager
04:14	guns	into is also very fast for collections implementing IEditableCollection
04:15	henrikhodne	Hi! I'm writing a library that involves talking to an HTTP API, and the HTTP requests can sometimes "fail" (as in return 500 errors). What is the idiomatic Clojure way to handle such errors in a way that they are able to be logged by either the library or the library consumer (ie. I can't just return 'nil' or something like that)?
04:15	ordnungswidrig	henrikhodne: exceptions are not bad.
04:16	Glenjamin	possibly via (ex-info)
04:16	Glenjamin	guns: ok - thanks
04:16	ssideris	henrikhodne: ex-info will allow you to attach clojure data to your exception to make it more useful
04:18	henrikhodne	Ah, thanks.
04:25	frankie_	Hey guys
04:25	frankie_	I stumbled on a behavior that I can't fully understand
04:25	frankie_	Wonder if anyone can give me some pointers
04:26	frankie_	(apply str "a" ["b" "c"])
04:26	frankie_	Gives "abc"
04:26	frankie_	If I do
04:26	frankie_	(def s [["b" "c"] ["a" "c"] ["a" "b"]])
04:26	frankie_	(map #(apply str % s) "abc")
04:27	frankie_	I would expect "abc" "bac" "cab"
04:27	frankie_	instead I get ("a[\"b\" \"c\"][\"a\" \"c\"][\"a\" \"b\"]" "b[\"b\" \"c\"][\"a\" \"c\"][\"a\" \"b\"]" "c[\"b\" \"c\"][\"a\" \"c\"][\"a\" \"b\"]")
04:27	Glenjamin	frankie_: sounds like you want zip
04:27	ordnungswidrig	strings are sequences
04:28	ordnungswidrig	,(apply str "abc")
04:28	clojurebot	"abc"
04:28	Glenjamin	wait, no - zip in clojure is just mutli-arity map
04:28	Glenjamin	,(map #(apply str %1 %2) "abc" [["b" "c"] ["a" "c"] ["a" "b"]])
04:28	clojurebot	("abc" "bac" "cab")
04:29	frankie_	Oh I see
04:29	frankie_	That's quite cool :)
04:30	frankie_	Thanks Glenjamin
04:30	Glenjamin	no probs
04:31	Glenjamin	The reason I wanted a lazy (into) is for creating a large hash-map - is this possible (or even something that makes sense?)
04:32	Glenjamin	hrm, no
04:32	Glenjamin	it doesn't make sense
04:47	clgv	Glenjamin: there are no lazy hashmaps in clojure.core
04:47	Glenjamin	i realised that if it's actually lazy you couldn't do the O(1) lookup without realizing it
04:47	Glenjamin	and i didn't actually need a hashmap until later in the program flow
04:58	mr-foobar	does clojurescript have the concept of classpaths ? how does it resolve :use and :require ?
05:07	Glenjamin	is there a neater way to acheive this? it seems more convoluted than it should be: https://www.refheap.com/80240
05:09	noidi	Glenjamin, http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/1.2.0/clojure.core/group-by
05:10	Glenjamin	bingo
05:10	Glenjamin	thanks!
05:10	Glenjamin	oh wait
05:10	Glenjamin	that gives me a vector for each key
05:11	noidi	,(group-by :id [{:id 1 :a "a"}, {:id 2 :a "b"}, {:id 3 :a "c"}])
05:11	clojurebot	{1 [{:id 1, :a "a"}], 2 [{:id 2, :a "b"}], 3 [{:id 3, :a "c"}]}
05:12	noidi	ah, right
05:12	noidi	that's because the seq may contain several values with the same key
05:13	Glenjamin	mm
05:15	Glenjamin	the implementation looks be reduce and transients
05:15	Glenjamin	so i guess i could do that
05:16	Bronsa	Glenjamin: (zipmap (map :id maps) maps)
05:17	Glenjamin	at the risk of overthinking it, wouldn't that iterate twice?
05:18	clgv	Glenjamin: what exactly is your problem with group-by?
05:19	Glenjamin	clgv: it gives me a different data-structure to the one i want
05:19	Glenjamin	i'm selecting rows from a DB then putting into a hash-map by primary key
05:19	clgv	Glenjamin: you have no duplicate value for the grouping attribute and thus want no vector?
05:19	Glenjamin	correct
05:19	Bronsa	Glenjamin: if that's a performance bottleneck to you sure, use (reduce (fn [m m1] (assoc m (:id m1) m1)) {} maps) i guess
05:20	clgv	Glenjamin: yeah just make sure it's really a bottleneck. otherwise you'll waste time ;)
05:20	Glenjamin	~600k rows
05:20	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
05:20	Glenjamin	seems like (into {} (map #(vector (key %) %) coll)) isn't too bad after all
05:21	Glenjamin	reduce is probably clearer
05:21	clgv	Glenjamin: well than you can use the equivalent reduce with transients...
05:21	Glenjamin	mm, going to crib the implementation from group-by and remove the vector bit
05:27	Glenjamin	yeah, that feels neater - thanks guys https://www.refheap.com/80240
05:42	pyrtsa	Glenjamin: While zipmap technically iterates over two sequences (i.e. twice), in practice it won't evaluate either more than roughly one cache line at a time (because of laziness), so you shouldn't be worrying about that.
05:44	pyrtsa	IMO, (zipmap (map :id maps) maps) reads much much better than keyed-by in https://www.refheap.com/80240
05:45	Glenjamin	pyrtsa: ah, i see
05:45	Glenjamin	that makes sense
05:45	Glenjamin	i think
05:46	pyrtsa	That said, I think keyed-by is a neat function. But you could just implement it with zipmap.
05:46	Glenjamin	right
05:47	Glenjamin	is there a transient zipmap?
05:47	pyrtsa	Ha, was just about to point out that zipmap doesn't use transients.
05:47	Glenjamin	i shall have a play about, gives me an excuse to try out criterium
05:47	Bronsa	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1005
05:49	pyrtsa	Glenjamin: You could write just (defn keyed-by [k xs] (into {} (for [x xs] [(k x) x])))
05:49	pyrtsa	Or (into {} (map (juxt k identity) xs))
05:51	Glenjamin	cool, will give them a spin and see if there's much in it
06:16	oskarth	When using my own library with schema defns from another project, I get a "no such var s/defn <line-in-library-code>" error. Why is that? I don't want to (have to) use schemas in the other project.
06:21	Glenjamin	here's my results if anyone is interested https://www.refheap.com/80269
06:26	oskarth	Seems like it's because I have AOT compilation enable. Using schema.macros (sm/defn) instead of schema.core for defns seems to solve it.
06:29	clgv	oskarth: sounds like some macro expands to a symbol with a namespace alias whose namespace is not required (or equally aliased) in the usage context of the macro
06:29	oskarth	yeah
06:30	clgv	oskarth: could be an error in the macro similar to 's/mysym versus `s/mysym
06:30	oskarth	I'm not sure what the right solution is though, seems a bit fragile to have that collision
06:30	clgv	the altter is correct
06:30	oskarth	oh
06:30	oskarth	you mean in the schema source?
06:31	clgv	yeah maybe, if the guilty macro is from there
06:32	oskarth	https://github.com/Prismatic/schema/blob/ea6eea2392685ec6afe58046c7691c6397858e57/src/clj/schema/macros.clj#L453-L527
06:33	clgv	oskarth: thats the macro that causes the exception?
06:33	oskarth	That's the schema macro which works though, so it's the wrong one, sec
06:33	oskarth	the other one was schema.core/defn, but I can't find it in the source code
06:34	clgv	oskarth: well I guess you used regular clojure.core/defn and added type information starting with "s/"?
06:34	oskarth	clgv: in the library it's s/... and in the other project it's regular defn, yes
06:35	Bronsa	oskarth: it's imported via potemkin https://github.com/Prismatic/schema/blob/ea6eea2392685ec6afe58046c7691c6397858e57/src/cljx/schema/core.cljx#L905
06:35	Bronsa	it might be that potemkin doesn't work with AOT
06:35	oskarth	Bronsa: oh, there it is
06:36	clgv	potemkin? is that a tool to make codebases harder to read?
06:36	oskarth	haha
06:36	oskarth	"Potemkin is a collection of facades and workarounds for things that are more difficult than they should be. All functions are within the potemkin namespace."
06:37	oskarth	this feels like a rabbit hole. The workaround is pretty straightforward though, as long as the ugliness is somewhere else ;)
06:37	clgv	oskarth: from the current short experience I got some doubts about that quote ;)
06:38	Glenjamin	potemkin is the one that's designed to let you expose a friendly public namespace, but remain free to arrange vars across namespaces internally however you want iirc
06:38	clgv	ah seems that the feature expression stuff is the complicating part and not potemkin ;)
06:39	Bronsa	clgv: that's cljx
06:40	clgv	(potemkin.namespaces/import-vars potemkin.namespaces/import-vars) ;; totally meta
06:40	clgv	:D^^
06:42	clgv	from a quick scan it does not seem as if import-vars might have problems with aot
06:45	oskarth	clgv: there's this issue @schema: https://github.com/Prismatic/schema/issues/21
06:46	oskarth	seems to be several in one though
06:56	akazlou	hi, from proxy documentation: ...Method fns are closures and can capture the environment in which proxy is called. Each method fn takes an additional implicit first arg, which is bound to this. ...
06:56	akazlou	what does it mean "capture the environment" and how I can access this implicit argument?
06:57	nightfly	I think the "which is bound to this" literally means the name "this"
06:58	nightfly	And captures the environment means that any variables that were visible within the scope where you define the proxy function will be available inside of it too.
07:01	clgv	akazlou: yeah "this" is implicitely defined in contrast to protocols/defrecord/deftypes
07:59	akazlou	ok, need to experiment with it in that case, thanks
08:08	akazlou	actually the question was raised because of http://www.4clojure.com/problem/113, how anyone can determine the "scope" of the return value, either string or list from the function itself, is it possible? and if, it sounds like very bad practice to return the data base on the caller's expectation
08:08	agarman	the exclusion is a pretty good hint
08:09	agarman	you can't use proxy, but are there other functions that make a type
08:09	akazlou	:) ok, I understood it the opposite way, the must to use "proxy"
08:09	akazlou	thank you for clarifying this
08:10	akazlou	no spoiler on the function name, will try to find it myself
08:10	agarman	enjoy
08:48	petron	How are you peeps deploying your Clojure applications to the web?
08:49	petron	Elastic Beanstalk recently started to support Docker, so that seems like a potential avenue.
08:50	asaleh	petron, right now I used openshift ... https://www.openshift.com/blogs/how-to-host-your-clojure-app-on-openshift
08:52	asaleh	petron, but 1) I wouldn't use it for production quality stuff 2) I work at RedHat, what means, that If stuff doesn't work I get to complain to developers over a coffe :)
08:56	rebcabin	is user/clojuredocs now deprecated from lein/repl?
09:43	rebcabin	,(defrecord x [y])
09:43	clojurebot	sandbox.x
09:43	rebcabin	,(x. 42)
09:43	clojurebot	#sandbox.x{:y 42}
09:43	rebcabin	,(->x 42)
09:43	clojurebot	#sandbox.x{:y 42}
09:43	rebcabin	What is the difference between the (x. 42) and (->x 42) for defrecord constructors?
09:45	hyPiRion	,(doc ->x)
09:45	clojurebot	"([y]); Positional factory function for class sandbox.x."
09:47	clgv	rebcabin: "->x" is a function and can be used as such which you can't with "x.", e.g. passed to map (map ->x (range 10))
09:47	clgv	,(map ->x (range 10))
09:47	clojurebot	(#sandbox.x{:y 0} #sandbox.x{:y 1} #sandbox.x{:y 2} #sandbox.x{:y 3} #sandbox.x{:y 4} ...)
09:47	rebcabin	ty :)
09:48	rebcabin	(,doc x.)
09:48	rebcabin	,(doc x.)
09:48	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
09:48	rebcabin	:)
09:48	clgv	unluckily primitive type hints are not passed to the function definition...
09:48	clgv	,(doc new)
09:48	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
09:48	clgv	$(doc new)
09:49	clgv	&(doc new)
09:49	lazybot	⇒ "Special: new; The args, if any, are evaluated from left to right, and\n passed to the constructor of the class named by Classname. The\n constructed object is returned."
09:49	clgv	,(read-string "(x. 1)")
09:49	clojurebot	(x. 1)
09:49	turbopape	which one is better guys : (reduce conj {} (seqing a map ) or into {} (seqing a map ) ?
09:49	clgv	,(macroexpand '(x. 1))
09:49	clojurebot	(new x 1)
09:49	clgv	ah right ^^
09:50	wagjo	turbopape: into
09:50	clgv	turbopape: if you do not want to modify the items "into" is more concise
09:50	turbopape	ok, but I am modifying the elements. If you say better, it's only for conciseness sake ?
09:50	wagjo	into is faster, sometimes
09:51	clgv	turbopape: "into" is even more efficient in terms of runtime for datatypes supporting transients
09:51	turbopape	ok, thank yo guys !
09:54	rebcabin	,(clojuredocs defrecord)
09:54	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: clojuredocs in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
09:54	rebcabin	,(doc defrecord)
09:54	clojurebot	"([name [& fields] & opts+specs]); (defrecord name [fields] options specs) Currently there are no options. Each spec consists of a protocol or interface name followed by zero or more method bodies: protocol-or-interface-or-Object (methodName [args] body)* Dynamically generates compiled bytecode for class with the given name, in a package with the same name as the current namespace, the given f...
09:59	clgv	$clojuredocs defrecord
09:59	lazybot	clojure.core/defrecord: http://clojuredocs.org/v/5457 clojure.core/verbose-defrecords: http://clojuredocs.org/v/5313 clojure.core/defrecord: http://clojuredocs.org/v/1647
09:59	clgv	there you go ;)
10:00	rebcabin	@clgv ty :)
10:00	clgv	there are some gems hidden in lazybot ;)
10:00	rebcabin	nod — i shall have to study it. "clojuredocs" seems gone from leiningen
10:01	myguidingstar	hi all, we use "java -Duser.language=..." to change an app's default locale. Is it possible to binding a locale to just an expression body? Something like (binding [locale "en_US"] (my-body))
10:02	mdrogalis	myguidingstar: You can, but dynamic bindings are to be avoided when possible.
10:03	myguidingstar	mdrogalis, I know it
10:04	myguidingstar	can you help me with that?
10:06	mdrogalis	myguidingstar: Have you considered other options first?
10:07	myguidingstar	do you suggest any other options? I can't think of any
10:08	mdrogalis	myguidingstar: What exactly are you trying to accomplish? Why does the value need to change temporarily?
10:10	myguidingstar	mdrogalis, I want my web app to allow users to set their locale
10:10	myguidingstar	my webapp use sevaral java libraries
10:11	myguidingstar	and it takes too much time to config each of those libs
10:11	myguidingstar	or even impossible for my reject-java-brain ^^
10:12	mdrogalis	myguidingstar: Can you try parameterizing your calls to those libs?
10:12	mdrogalis	Maybe a little functional layer over them.
10:13	myguidingstar	mdrogalis, it'll be a lot of painful work, I guest
10:14	mdrogalis	myguidingstar: I've used binding a few times in my Clojure life. Never once been happy with the outcome.
10:15	myguidingstar	mdrogalis, I'll take the risk. I won't use any more dynamic bindings, I promise ;>
10:16	mdrogalis	myguidingstar: ;)
10:29	gtuckerkellogg	anyone having trouble with cider v0.6.0?
10:36	mdrogalis	,(let [x 42] (quote ~x))
10:36	clojurebot	(clojure.core/unquote x)
10:36	mdrogalis	Trying to get that to eval to "42". Any help?
10:36	mdrogalis	Riemann's requiring me to quote a form.
10:38	mdrogalis	Nevermind -- got it.
10:53	szymanowski	hello, in clojurescript, is there a way to "import" all vars of a ns to another? like with (ns myns (:use other-ns)) in clojure
10:56	jonasen	szymanowski: no, I don't think there is a way to do that
10:56	szymanowski	ok thank you
11:13	stompyj	whats the next big clojure conference?
11:14	stompyj	clojure “east"?
11:14	stompyj	and strangeloop just opened for RFP’s right?
11:17	jonasen	stompyj: euroclojure?
11:20	stompyj	jonasen: thanks!
11:38	camdenx	#join rvm
12:32	mzarella	After putting me.raynes/fs "1.4.4" into the :dependencies in my project, how do I make sure lein actually installs the dependency?
12:32	mzarella	And then How would i actually use something like the cwd function? https://raynes.github.io/fs/me.raynes.fs.html#var-cwd
12:32	alejandro	mzarella: most lein tasks will install it for you
12:32	alejandro	e.g. lein deps or lein repl
12:34	oskarth	When using nrepl in emacs, I often find myself wanting to evaluate a sub-expression that uses a variable "out of scope" (i.e. it's in a let block above) - any tips for dealing with that instead of rewriting my whole expression?
12:34	mzarella	Is there a tutorial which explains how to use modules?
12:34	oskarth	mzarella: what do you mean by modules?
12:35	mzarella	community contributed libraries
12:35	alejandro	mzarella: it's really just namespaces that you bring in from the outside. But using them is just like using your own namespace
12:35	alejandro	for a good namespace intro/refresher, i'm a fan of http://www.braveclojure.com/organization/
12:35	oskarth	usually all you have to do is to add the latest version in :dependencies at project.clj (this can be found at either clojars.org or the github page)
12:36	oskarth	what alejandro said
12:36	AWizzArd	About cider-nrepl: adding this as a :plugin to my :user profile is enough, right? I won’t need to add :nrepl-middleware to my :repl-options, yes?
12:37	dbasch	oskarth: in the repl, just use def
12:38	dbasch	oskarth: and 1, 2, etc
12:38	oskarth	dbasch: thats what I do now, I prefer to evaluate it in my code window though
12:39	oskarth	jumping around and ctrl-c spamming different expressions
12:39	dbasch	oskarth: if you need the variable outside of a scope, then increase the scope :)
12:39	oskarth	yeah sure, I guess what I was looking for what a nnrepl shortcut to use the closest let for scope, since it's kind of a common situation
12:40	rasmusto	C-x C-e hurts my delicate fingers
12:40	oskarth	what's cpab?
12:41	rasmusto	it's 'cp' as an eval prefix in vim-fireplace, then ab for the current sexpr
12:41	rasmusto	'ab' is just a vim text motion
12:47	justin_smith	rasmusto: there is such a world of language outside vim! while it is true that no clojure.core defs start with ab, imagine where we would be without Math/abs, absolution, the alphabet, or Abba
12:47	rasmusto	justin_smith: fabulous!
12:49	seangrove	If a message is good enough to send once to the ml, it's good enough to send 3x
12:53	AimHere	Whatever I tell you three times is true
12:54	akiel	hi
12:54	akiel	is there a build-in function doing this: (defn to-seq [xorxs]
12:54	akiel	(if (sequential? xorxs)
12:54	akiel	xorxs
12:54	akiel	(list xorxs)))
12:55	Bronsa	akiel: there's `sequence` that calls seq? rather than sequential?
12:55	akiel	but (sequence 1) returns an error
12:56	devn	im trying to hook up pulsar to play with it in the emacs cider repl. the README says to add the PATH to my quasar.jar to my jvm-opts. I've done so: "-javaagent:/Users/devn/.m2/repository/co/paralleluniverse/quasar-core/0.5.0/quasar-core-0.5.0.jar"
12:56	devn	When I try to create a fiber it's still complaining that there's no instrumentation though
12:56	devn	Anyone know what might be going on?
12:57	akiel	Bronsa: sequence calls seq if the args is no seq?
12:58	justin_smith	$source sequence
12:58	lazybot	sequence is http://is.gd/5eF6sb
12:58	justin_smith	akiel: see there ^
12:58	akiel	justin_smith: thanks I was already on github
12:59	justin_smith	oh, you don't want that, based on the scroll up you want your original (but that is only a proximate fix - a problem like that looks like a rough edge in a design to me)
13:00	justin_smith	I can't know for sure, of course, but my hunch is if you need to force 1 to be '(1) either the producer or consumer of the data has issues
13:02	cbp	Anyway i mostly linked to that atwood post because of this https://medium.com/tech-culture-briefs/a1e93d985af0
13:02	cbp	er
13:02	cbp	wrong channel
13:02	cbp	sorry
13:06	justin_smith	cbp: good link anyway
13:07	justin_smith	(inc cbp)
13:07	lazybot	⇒ 3
13:12	coventry	How hard is it to get at the raw nodes in the trees making up clojure's persistent data structures? Are they clojure structures too? Also, is there a good explanation of the clojure persistent hashmap data structure?
13:13	coventry	s/persistent data structures/persistent vectors/
13:13	jcromartie	coventry: they are not also clojure data structures...
13:13	jcromartie	but you can examine the Java source code
13:13	justin_smith	coventry: you could probably get at the internals via interop
13:14	jcromartie	I can't imagine you can bootstrap persistent data structures with themselves… you need some primitives in the host platform
13:14	agarman	http://hypirion.com/musings/understanding-persistent-vector-pt-1
13:14	BobSchack	http://blog.higher-order.net/2009/02/01/understanding-clojures-persistentvector-implementation
13:14	agarman	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hash_array_mapped_trie
13:14	coventry	jcromartie: Yeah, definitely they can't be clojure all the way down. :-)
13:15	justin_smith	,(do (require '[clojure.reflect :as refl]) (refl/reflect [])) ; coventry
13:15	clojurebot	{:bases #{clojure.lang.APersistentVector clojure.lang.IObj clojure.lang.IEditableCollection}, :flags #{:public}, :members #{#clojure.reflect.Method{:name empty, :return-type clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection, :declaring-class clojure.lang.PersistentVector, :parameter-types [], :exception-types [], ...} #clojure.reflect.Method{:name iterator, :return-type java.util.Iterator, :declaring-class cloju...
13:16	justin_smith	though reading source and reasoning from that may be easier
13:16	ztellman	coventry jcromartie: simple persistent objects can model most, if not all, of clojure's persistent data structures
13:16	ztellman	not the transient versions, obviously
13:17	ztellman	just a bunch of final fields on an object, in Java-land
13:17	coventry	Thanks, everyone. I'm developing a serializer which uses structural sharing to compress its output. I was going to do it by just walking the input structure and looking for (identical?) components, but then I realized that would be missing a lot of opportunities.
13:18	ztellman	conventry: naive serialization and compression are a reasonable proxy for that
13:18	ztellman	still pay the cost on deserialization, though
13:28	devn	bah. bah! i cannot get pulsar to work.
13:30	coventry	ztellman: Thanks. Are there any compression tools which let you give hints about where you expect the repetition to be? I'm expecting repetition periods of about 1M, which gzip is not going to catch.
13:30	jcromartie	you can set the block size
13:30	jcromartie	right?
13:30	BobSchack	coventry why not use fressian if you're handling clojure datastructures?
13:31	coventry	BobSchack: Does it have a representation of structural sharing?
13:34	coventry`	Maybe its STRUCT opcode can be used that way.
13:35	BobSchack	I believe it has something similar, domain aware caching. You can tell the encoder the fields to be cached (https://github.com/clojure/data.fressian/blob/45b413805f746de94803f72c3bbe78d939a72a3f/src/main/clojure/clojure/data/fressian.clj#L125)
13:35	coventry`	Thanks, BobSchack.
13:36	BobSchack	I've been writing an implementation in ClojureScript and from the delve through the source it should be able to do structural sharing
13:36	BobSchack	NP
13:37	coventry`	Oh, that's great, it's actually the ClojureScript side I'm most interested in. Is your implementation public?
13:37	BobSchack	https://github.com/devn/longshi
13:38	coventry`	Terrific, this looks really handy.
13:38	BobSchack	I've only gotten the basic types working so far (strings, ints, etc). I working on the readme right now
13:39	BobSchack	It's my first non toy clojure project so if you see improvements let me know
13:42	mdeboard	Can someone tell me what I'm doing wrong here with defprotocol/defrecord? The code & traceback are in this gist: https://gist.github.com/mattdeboard/5041ce78a99064546c83
13:43	mdeboard	I thought you didn't define implementations in a protocol, and can use them in a record to define how to implement
13:43	llasram	mdeboard: In-line protocol implementations are implemented via JVM interfaces, in which case all bare method names must be distinct
13:43	llasram	Records already implement various Map interfaces, one of which already defines `get`
13:43	mdeboard	Ahso
13:44	llasram	You can work around this by using `extend`(`-type`/`-protocol`) to externally extend your record type to your protocol
13:45	mdeboard	No that's fine, I tihnk I'd rather not stomp on the built in
13:45	bbloom	mdeboard: yeah, you can simply use extend-protocol instead of defining the method inline... protocols respect namespaces, unlike java method names
13:45	bbloom	mdeboard: you wouldn't be stomping the builtin
13:46	bbloom	mdeboard: your fn is technically named courses.models.course/get
13:46	mdeboard	YeahI noticed that when using it in the repl
13:46	mdeboard	it threw off a warning about stomping clojure.core/get
13:46	bbloom	mdeboard: however, i suggest that you stop making records and protocols for this use case
13:46	mdeboard	Mmkay
13:46	mdeboard	Why so
13:46	bbloom	just use a normal map
13:47	bbloom	defrecord is for when you need a unique named type
13:47	bbloom	unless you plan to do polymorphic dispatch by type, there's not much benefit to creating one
13:48	mdeboard	bbloom: Well, I was looking at the comparison here https://github.com/Prismatic/eng-practices/blob/master/clojure/20130926-data-representation.md
13:48	mdeboard	and how hash maps require up to 10x the contents of the map
13:48	mdeboard	I'm almost certainly thinking too OO
13:49	bbloom	mdeboard: 10X contents for a small value is meaningless unless you have a large number of those small values
13:49	bbloom	mdeboard: premature optimization for sure
13:49	bbloom	mdeboard: you're definitely thinking too OO
13:49	mdeboard	Sure, I understand that, but this isn't a greenfield project I'm working on
13:50	mdeboard	Instead reimplementing certain parts of a production API in Clj
13:50	bbloom	mdeboard: do you have existing java code that needs you to implement specific interfaces?
13:50	bbloom	i'd suggest a simple (defn get-course [conn course-id] ...) function
13:51	mdeboard	Yeah, you're right. idk what I was thinking
13:51	mdeboard	always takes time to change midnset
13:51	mdeboard	mindset*
13:52	bbloom	absolutely, learning clojure is mostly about unlearning bad habits forced on you buy crummier languages
13:52	gvickers	Truth^
13:52	mdeboard	I've written a nontrivial amount of Clojure, but there's always long periods of Python-writing between :P
13:52	egghead	lol mdeboard
13:52	justin_smith	mdeboard: each language has its vices. OO: I know, we can fix it with more classes! LISP: I know, we can fix it with more layers of macros! etc. etc.
13:52	rasmusto	python_writing()
13:53	justin_smith	PHP: oh I know, we can fix it by randomizing our function naming conventions and argument order
13:53	bbloom	justin_smith: and in OO languages the true answer is usually less classes and in lisps the answer is virtually no macros :-P
13:53	coventry`	Last time I wrote a serious amount of python code, I did it in clojure style. It was fun, and the inefficiency didn't matter in that case.
13:53	justin_smith	bbloom: I know, I had hoped to be making that point (somewhat sarcastically)
13:54	justin_smith	coventry`: I plan to be doing that soon, may hit you up for pointers
13:54	ambrosebs	,(name :abc)
13:54	clojurebot	"abc"
13:55	mdeboard	coventry`: Exactly. I write functional python
13:55	technomancy	coventry`: "how horrified can you make a python programmer" sounds like a fun game
13:55	mdrogalis	bbloom: "learning clojure is mostly about unlearning bad habits" Can I quote you? I like that.
13:56	mdeboard	learning clojure is mostly about bookmarking docs because googling problems usually only yields 3-year-old how-tos :P
13:56	coventry`	justin_smith: Have you persuaded people to let you use python instead of java? That's a small victory I imagine.
13:56	bbloom	mdrogalis: sure, but only if you keep the "forced on you by crummier languages" part ;-)
13:56	mdrogalis	bbloom: You.. You want me to get beat up on Twitter. ;[
13:57	bbloom	mdrogalis: take your beating like a man
13:57	justin_smith	coventry`: the backend is highly dictated by clients, some want java, some allow clojure (yay), some prefer python, others php (omgwtf)
13:58	llasram	mdrogalis takes his beating like a duck
13:59	mdrogalis	llasram: :)
14:18	gfredericks	I think it'd be cool to combine the strint macro to make an ex-info macro that lets you reference keys from the data map inside the msg string
14:30	mdeboard	Hm, is there any particular reason why Emacs would hang (using cider + cider-nrepl) when editing a clojure buffer? It's like it's trying to do something in the background; I mash C-g enough and it returns control to me.
14:31	gfredericks	it might be pinging the server for arglists and stuff
14:31	gfredericks	not sure why that would hang it
14:31	mdeboard	what server?
14:31	gfredericks	the nrepl server
14:32	gfredericks	is your nrepl server on a distant planet?
14:32	arrdem	gfredericks: rover on mars, why do you ask?
14:32	arrdem	gfredericks: made with alien technology :D
14:32	jcromartie	arrdem: seriously?
14:32	gfredericks	arrdem: irrc mars is a laggy connection
14:32	gfredericks	iirc*
14:32	Frozenlo`	mdeboard: I had a similar experience with Cider... I decided to go back to nrepl.el
14:33	mdeboard	Frozenlo`: Well, damn.
14:33	arrdem	jcromartie: oh for real?
14:33	technomancy	jcromartie: JPL?
14:33	Frozenlo`	Good ol' nrepl, works perfectly well :-p
14:33	arrdem	jcromartie: I've got a chance to write C++/Rust at UT's satellite lab and was kinda laughing about being able to run Clojure on a nanosat
14:33	mdeboard	https://github.com/clojure-emacs/cider-nrepl/issues/37 probably
14:33	ystael	mdeboard: Try disabling autocomplation?
14:34	ystael	*autocompletion
14:34	technomancy	I once emailed Ron Garrett to try to get his CL HTTP server working in clisp.
14:34	technomancy	I don't remember if that was after he left the JPL or not
14:34	arrdem	gfredericks: if you can deal with a few minutes of lag and potentially screwing a multi million dollar rover, sure!
14:34	mdeboard	ystael: Not sure how to in cider, do you know off the top of your head?
14:34	technomancy	http://www.flownet.com/gat/jpl-lisp.html
14:34	stuartsierra	mdeboard: Maybe autocomplete
14:35	justin_smith	mdeboard: M-x (global-autocomplete-mode) will toggle it
14:35	mdeboard	I toggled auto-complete-mode, still hung
14:35	ystael	mdeboard: as I fuzzily recall, I removed the ac-nrepl and clojure-complete packages. this was a while ago though, i definitely do not have recent builds
14:36	coventry`	mdeboard: M-x toggle-debug-on-quit <RET>, then mash C-g next time it happens. Should give you a backtrace which may tell you what's causing it.
14:36	mdeboard	coventry`: nice, it did
14:37	mdeboard	What it means, idk https://gist.github.com/mattdeboard/89e9ed61a091b8bbddfa
14:37	coventry`	Try turning off eldoc.
14:38	mdeboard	Giving that a whirl
14:38	mdeboard	Seems to be aok
14:39	coventry`	No idea how to get at what's happening on the server to figure out why that's slow, though. I guess you could try running jstack while emacs is hung.
14:39	technomancy	"Also in 1993 I used MCL to help generate a code patch for the Gallileo magnetometer. The magnetometer had an RCA1802 processor, 2k each of RAM and ROM, and was programmed in Forth using a development system that ran on a long-since-decommissioned Apple II. The instrument had developed a bad memory byte right in the middle of the code. The code needed to be patched to not use this bad byte."
14:40	technomancy	"The magnetometer team had originally estimated that resurrecting the development environment and generating the code patch would take so long that they were not even going to attempt it. Using Lisp I wrote from scratch a Forth development environment for the instrument (including a simulator for the hardware) and used it to generate the patch. The whole project took just under 3 months of part-time work."
14:40	technomancy	dang
14:40	mdeboard	coventry`: I just added that gist to the issue on github
14:40	justin_smith	technomancy: alien tech at its best
14:41	mdeboard	wow.
14:42	arrdem	jcromartie: you can't just say that to a room full of nerds and fade into the shadows. WE DEMAND DETAILS.
14:42	technomancy	heh, "My best hope at this point is that the dotcom crash will do to Java what AI winter did to Lisp, and we may eventually emerge from "dotcom winter" into a saner world. But I wouldn't bet on it."
14:42	justin_smith	nice
14:43	coventry`	At least we got an AI spring.
14:43	Frozenlock	technomancy: we have JS now. hurray.
14:43	technomancy	Frozenlock: so what we need is a "web winter" I guess
14:44	arrdem	http://arrdem.com/i/alien.png
14:44	arrdem	technomancy: or clojurescript...
14:45	Frozenlock	New top domain names ----> new world war ----> web winter
14:45	Frozenlock	'logic' :-p
14:45	arrdem	have you seen the things you can get for a TLD these days? :P
14:45	justin_smith	technomancy: I think the problem is that the partial gains of AI never made the CEO chuckle at the antics of a fluffy animal or supplied him with pornographic material. So they never saw the baby that was being thrown out with the bath water when AI was defunded.
14:45	turbofail	didn't ron garret have some followup article about how he met people at google who kicked his ass in productivity using whatever language?
14:45	Frozenlock	arrdem: I have. I also have very mixed feelings about it.
14:45	coventry`	I was hanging out on #javascript recently. People there seemed quite certain that no one's going to be manually programming javascript for much longer.
14:46	arrdem	Frozenlock: I'll just wait for DNS to be found fatally flawed so we can get on with namecoin adoption
14:46	mdeboard	coventry`: Oh good, so we'll have machine-generated javascript built by generators built by humans who love javascript
14:46	mdeboard	What could possibly go wrong
14:46	mdeboard	abstraction porn
14:47	arrdem	(inc mdeboard) ;; why do you think I like compilers..
14:47	lazybot	⇒ 5
14:47	llasram	You know, just like how know one writes anything in assembly, for any reason
14:47	llasram	s,know,no,
14:47	coventry`	I don't think the people who wrote clojurescript and elm are particularly in love with javascript. :-)
14:47	Frozenlock	arrdem: I'd like that. (I think)
14:48	aditya-a	technomancy: the jpl-lisp article is so cool... among my permanent lisp bookmarks :)
14:48	arrdem	Frozenlock: it's all fun and games until you have to debug the emitter..
14:49	llasram	Argh. Did that that GSoC proposal to do persistent probabilistic data structures for Clojure get accepted?
14:49	llasram	Trying to very hard to avoid shaving too many yaks right now, but these Java HyperLogLog implementations are making it hard
14:49	arrdem	llasram: not that I know of.
14:49	llasram	Bah
14:50	llasram	And humbug to boot
14:50	arrdem	llasram: Bronsa and I got in... another Sweedish guy got accepted to do a variant of my project.. there's a guy on Light Table, and there's one more I think.
14:53	llasram	arrdem: Well, congrats to you and Bronsa at least :-)
14:53	ystael	mdeboard: don't worry, idris will fix all our javascript problems :)
14:53	arrdem	llasram: is there a paper you can shoot me? I'm curious what you mean by probabalistic datastructures.
14:54	coventry`	arrdem: persistent probabilistic
14:54	coventry`	data structures
14:54	coventry`	Oops.
14:54	llasram	arrdem: the (rejected?) GSoC proposal has pretty much all of the links you'd want: http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/proposal/public/google/gsoc2014/matteo_ceccarello/5778586438991872
14:55	coventry`	I meant to send that, but cutting-and-pasting is broken in this emacs.
14:55	llasram	Basic idea is you have a data structure which lets you trade something (usually space) for certainty. Bloom filters are probably the most famous
14:56	llasram	And of course all the existing Java implementations are mutable to the max, and mark their backing data as `private` so you can't sanely serialize them
14:57	coventry`	I can see why it wasn't accepted. The proposal doesn't cohere around an interesting problem.
14:57	llasram	coventry`: That's fair. I was just saw the original post and thought "man, I could really use those" :-0
14:58	llasram	Instead -- I either get mutability or yak-shaving, and ATM am sadly going for mutability
15:03	pjstadig	llasram: don't you know should should always err on the side of yak-shaving?
15:07	llasram	pjstadig: What if I know / tell myself that I'm really just putting the yak-shaving off until later? Do I get them back?
15:08	llasram	In a sense I'm both yak-shaving and procrastinating
15:14	mdeboard	Question about clojure.java.jdb.c If I'm using insert! with multiple records, I have to use apply, e.g. `(apply sql/insert! db :table records)` ... does this mean that a query is being made per insert?
15:15	justin_smith	mdeboard: best way to answer that is check the source
15:15	mdeboard	justin_smith: Yeah I've got it open but it's kind of bonkers.
15:15	pjstadig	llasram: i've spoken to the council and you are temporarily reinstated for a probationary period. if you meet your yak shaving quota, you'll have no problem getting fully reinstated.
15:15	justin_smith	weird, my version of jdbc doesn't even seem to have insert!
15:16	mdeboard	Based on the fact there's this line, I assume it's a single query per: `(map (fn [row] (insert-single-row-sql table row entities)) rows)`
15:16	mdeboard	Nevermind
15:16	justin_smith	mdeboard: not neccessarily - where is the transaction bound?
15:16	justin_smith	or the connection even
15:17	mdeboard	I see here
15:17	justin_smith	mdeboard: another approach could be to turn on verbose logging on the sql server side
15:18	justin_smith	may or may not be easier
15:18	mdeboard	even better.
15:19	justin_smith	?
15:19	harovali	hi! , I'm really impressed at clojure, I'd like to embrace it. My first newbie question; why it hasn't the + fuction to be escaped in an expression like this: (reduce + [ 1 2 3 4] ) ?
15:20	agarman	+ is a symbol
15:20	agarman	so it's escaped already
15:20	agarman	when you put it at the head of a list
15:20	Anderkent	or rather, + 'the symbol' evaluates to + 'the fucction
15:20	Anderkent	,+
15:20	clojurebot	#<core$_PLUS_ clojure.core$_PLUS_@1775cce>
15:20	harovali	agarman: aha!, not like in CL that you have to type #'+ IIRC ?
15:20	Anderkent	and then that function is applied in reduce
15:20	agarman	like (+ 1 2 3) it is looked up like a function
15:20	agarman	and evaled as a function
15:21	harovali	sure, but there it's clearer since it's in first form position
15:21	Anderkent	eh, i don't think that's the right explanation
15:21	llasram	harovali: Yeah, Clojure is a "Lisp-1", with only one way of resolving symbols to things
15:21	harovali	llasram: aha! like elisp , say ?
15:21	llasram	Yep, or Scheme, at least in that regard
15:21	mdeboard	justin_smith: even better wrt tailing the pg log
15:21	harovali	llasram: thanks
15:21	justin_smith	harovali: clojure is a lisp-1, which means that functions and variables are in one "namespace"
15:22	justin_smith	mdeboard: ahh, cool, so it was in one query?
15:22	harovali	justin_smith: thanks too
15:22	justin_smith	np
15:23	justin_smith	llasram: well, we have multiple ways of looking symbols up (local vs. ns bi ndings etc.) but they are the same for functions and not-functions
15:23	johnjelinek	hihi all, how's it goin'?
15:23	llasram	justin_smith: Yeah -- I just was groping around for a way to avoid saying that Clojure "only has one namespace"
15:23	llasram	Since it, you know, has an arbitrary number of first-class namespaces :-)
15:23	harovali	a rather obnoxious question, aren't people worried at tha oracle's policies regarding jvm , when embracing clojure (or when designing it in the first place, although possible it started befor oracle's buy of java IIRC)
15:24	agarman	I use clojure because I have to work on the JVM
15:24	justin_smith	llasram: in retrospect, maybe "functions and non functions are looked up in the same way" would be more clear
15:25	agarman	if I weren't restricted to the JVM, I'd consider Clojure, but along with Ocaml, F# or elixir
15:25	harovali	agarman: thanks
15:25	johnjelinek	is it better to add data to an atom like a collection of records (ie: '({:resource "data" :val 1} {:resource "data" :val 2})) or like a collection of documents (ie: '({:resource "data" :vals '[1 2]})?
15:25	justin_smith	harovali: clojure has versions (of various maturity) on various target languages / platforms. I trust that if Oracle got onerous to clojure clojure would move on.
15:25	johnjelinek	which is more idiomatic?
15:25	harovali	justin_smith: thanks
15:25	bbloom	johnjelinek: niether
15:26	johnjelinek	bbloom: what do you suggest?
15:26	bbloom	johnjelinek: also you don't need that ' on your vector, numbers are self evaluating
15:26	johnjelinek	noted
15:26	bbloom	johnjelinek: i probably should have said either
15:26	johnjelinek	lol
15:26	agarman	johnjelinek: depends upon your use case
15:26	bbloom	johnjelinek: represent your value how you need it
15:27	bbloom	johnjelinek: if you have a map, you're using some key to look up some value. build up data that match your algorithms
15:27	harovali	I have to supose that the java standard library and the enterprise java beans, and such stuff , are really useful when one progams in clojure. Is that better thatn say the satandard library of perl or python or .. ?
15:27	johnjelinek	here's the case: I have different routes, and I want to collect http responses so I can broadcast data to them all over http chunked encoding, but I want to filter out data to broadcast based on who is listening on a route
15:28	agarman	harovali: the JVM libraries vary in usefulness...some are terrible...such as Date and text formatting...some are excellent like concurrent libs
15:28	bbloom	johnjelinek: i'm not quite sure what that means, but all you need to do is figure out what data you have, what questions you want to ask of your data set, and then encode data to best answer those questions
15:28	johnjelinek	I think maybe I'll keep things super flat, it sounds like it'd be easier to query
15:29	johnjelinek	rather than nesting arrays
15:29	bbloom	flatter is generally easier to query and, if your data set is small, linear performance is probably just fine
15:30	harovali	agarman: aha!, I'd previously thing that precisely, the Date library was excellent
15:30	harovali	s/thing/think/
15:30	bbloom	you can always add extra indexes and such later, since you've got immutable data it's easy to create consistent alternate views of data either incrementally or in a batch. start w/ the simplest information model & optimize later
15:30	johnjelinek	thanks :)
15:30	johnjelinek	bbloom: good thought :)
15:30	agarman	harovali: like with Ruby, Python etc. learning the stdlib and it's gotchas is a rather large part of learning the language. The functions provided by Clojure are almost universally excellent. When I need to use Java libs, they're there, but it's often depressing.
15:30	johnjelinek	lol, filter and remove always get me confused on the predicate
15:31	bbloom	johnjelinek: me too.
15:31	bbloom	filter-out vs filter-for
15:31	bbloom	argh.
15:31	johnjelinek	right
15:31	justin_smith	looking at the real world, a filter catches things, but the mental model of whether you are interested in the things that pass through the filter or the things filtered out can be confusing
15:32	justin_smith	so perhaps a filter should have two outputs :)
15:32	bbloom	justin_smith: i like the name "where"
15:32	justin_smith	really clojure's filter may be clearer as "net" or "trap"
15:33	agarman	harovali: Java's date lib was so pathologically bad that no one used it for years. Everyone used Joda. And now JSR 310 is a brand new implementation of same functionality for Java 8 and beyond.
15:33	justin_smith	bbloom: where sounds like a logical condition though (a where f(a) < x)
15:34	stuartsierra	(for [x (range 10) :when (even? x)] x)
15:35	bbloom	,(for [x (range 10) :when (even? x)] x)
15:35	clojurebot	(0 2 4 6 8)
15:35	bbloom	stuartsierra: what are bots for if we don't make them do any work?
15:36	stuartsierra	bbloom: I always forget to include the bot syntax.
15:36	bbloom	stuartsierra: in the spirit of making the bots do extra work, they should speculatively evaluate anything that resembles code you may want to evaluate in irc
15:36	dbasch	why is that more useful than
15:36	dbasch	,(range 0 10 2)
15:36	clojurebot	(0 2 4 6 8)
15:36	justin_smith	bbloom: though I guess that logical condition is exactly what filter is doing, so...
15:37	bbloom	dbasch: b/c (for [x some-result-from-earlier :when (even? x)] x)
15:37	stuartsierra	dbasch: It's not. Just an example of `for :when` syntax.
15:37	dbasch	stuartsierra: gotcha :)
15:38	turbofail	hm. filter always seemed intuitive to me, perhaps because i'm used to thinking of filters by what they pass
15:39	coventry	Yeah, filter is great, but for / :when is very useful when you want to iterate over and filter a cartesian product.
15:40	justin_smith	turbofail: well, in natural language it is ambiguous - "high frequency filter" "water filter" "carbon monoxide filter" - totally inconsistent
15:41	szymanowski	hello, when I try (declare foo) at the clojurescript repl it throws an error is it normal?
15:41	dbasch	there used to be a separate function in clojure contrib, don’t know if it’s still around
15:41	dbasch	but it was like (juxt filter remove)
15:42	justin_smith	,(group-by even? (range 4)) ; dbasch
15:42	clojurebot	{true [0 2], false [1 3]}
15:42	justin_smith	that's all that's needed for that
15:43	dbasch	,((juxt filter remove) even? (range 4))
15:43	clojurebot	[(0 2) (1 3)]
15:43	rhg135	,(doc group-by)
15:43	clojurebot	"([f coll]); Returns a map of the elements of coll keyed by the result of f on each element. The value at each key will be a vector of the corresponding elements, in the order they appeared in coll."
15:43	rhg135	hmm
15:44	dbasch	justin_smith: depends on what you want
15:47	dbasch	justin_smith: group-by is not lazy, for one
15:47	justin_smith	fair point, yeah
15:59	amalloy	(juxt filter remove) is only half-lazy, really
15:59	justin_smith	half-lazy?
16:00	amalloy	try: (let [[evens odds] ((juxt filter remove) even? (range 1e8))] (list (last odds) (first evens)))
16:00	amalloy	it has to walk over the list twice, so it has to hold onto the head of the list for the second traversal
16:07	teslanick	Is this a totally nutty idea? https://gist.github.com/nhusher/11301237
16:08	teslanick	Putting data to the redis-ch posts it to a redis pubsub, taking from awaits data on the pubsub.
16:15	alejandr_	teslanick: that's a cool idea. Can you explain how the readPort portion works?
16:16	teslanick	core.async channels are just a small box of protocols. I'm implementing the same protocols with different behavior.
16:16	teslanick	I borrowed the idea from https://github.com/james-henderson/chord
16:18	teslanick	But it's just calling the protocol function against the read-ch. So when you do (<! redis-ch) you're actually doing (<! read-ch), which is a channel fed by the redis-listener.
16:19	alejandr_	Ah got it, had missed that the redis subscriber was filling a separate channel
16:19	alejandr_	thanks
16:19	teslanick	It's the only way I could think of to stitch together the (weird) way that carmine handles pubsub and a core.async channel
16:20	justin_smith	arrdem: regarding out convo the other day about using log on units, one way to clarify it may be to say that currently your usage of numbers for the units is an implicit multiplying factor, and you need some other datum to represent curvature, which is something not represented currently (you are using math such that all is implicitly linear, log is not linear)
16:21	justin_smith	*our convo...
16:30	sveri	Hi, I am still on my way through om, right now I am trying om-sync. I am running this function: (om/transact! data edit-key (fn [_] (.-date e)) :update) where data is a map like this: {:id 2394 :foo "foo" :bar "bar"}, edit-key is :bar and the fn just returns sime text for :bar. It works at altering the state and om-sync also calls the server side. However, it only provides the edit-key :bar map like this: {:bar "new_val"} instead of the whol
16:32	justin_smith	e..
16:38	AWizzArd	About cider-nrepl: adding this as a :plugin to my :user profile is enough, right? I won’t need to add :nrepl-middleware to my :repl-options, yes?
16:53	ticking	has anyone found a local maxima for a simple clojure editor yet?
16:54	mikerod	ticking: does that mean emacs?
16:54	ticking	mikerod: simple ;p
16:55	justinho1	vim?
16:55	clojurebot	Gesundheit!
16:55	mikerod	ticking: (not= simple easy)
16:55	mikerod	:P
16:55	amalloy	well, emacs is neither, mikerod
16:55	ticking	mikerod: emacs is neither
16:55	amalloy	i mean, i love emacs
16:55	mikerod	amalloy: I was waiting on a response like that :P
16:55	mikerod	fair enough, but yes I do love emacs
16:56	justinholguin	Seriously though, LightTable is probably it
16:56	ticking	justinholguin: nope, LT is probably easy but BOT is the opposite of simple, even the emacs internals are cleaner compared to that hairball ^^
16:56	hrathod	ticking: Nightcode, perhaps?
16:57	justinholguin	BOT?
16:57	ticking	justinholguin: the object model LT
16:57	ticking	LT employs, Behaviours Objects Tags
16:58	justinholguin	Ok, thanks.
16:59	justinholguin	I started with LT and it served me well while I was still experimenting with basics, but I use vim now and I can't really go back.
16:59	ticking	hrathod: good idea but seems very IDE focused
16:59	mikerod	when going for simple
16:59	mikerod	in an editor
16:59	mikerod	that is tricky I suppose
16:59	ticking	yeah, I was thinking about Sublime :/
17:00	ticking	Github atom looks promising but feels alpha
17:00	mikerod	Eclipse + counter clockwise :)
17:00	ticking	justinholguin: yeah, LT is awesome on paper but flawed in reality
17:00	ticking	mikerod: oh you ;)
17:03	hrathod	What is the definition of "simple" in this case? Just syntax highlighting? ability to connect to nrepl?
17:04	mikerod	is a "notepad" style editor simple?
17:04	ticking	mikerod: yeah
17:05	mikerod	then notepad
17:05	ticking	hrathod: connect to nrepl should be the most advanced feature
17:06	ticking	mikerod: I'm on a mac, also notepad might be a bit tooo simple
17:06	ticking	but I'd lean more forward to something like it than say lighttable
17:07	mikerod	I know people coming from Java-land tend to use Counterclockwise since they are already using Eclipse
17:07	hrathod	ticking: I don't know what the status of Clooj is, but I believe it was fairly simple
17:07	ticking	hrathod: yeah commited a fix to it once, but it is also very IDE like
17:08	ticking	I'll just conclude that no local maxima has been found yet ^^
17:09	justinholguin	Where's the appeal in an editor that's basically notepad with nREPL support? I don't think I get it.
17:09	ticking	justinholguin: simple things have less points of failure
17:09	egghead	LOCAL MAXIMA
17:09	llasram	Also, where's the appeal of an editor that isn't Emacs? I don't get it :-)
17:10	ticking	llasram: same answer ;) less points of failure
17:10	egghead	light table?
17:10	egghead	emacs?
17:10	clojurebot	emacs is a nice operating system if it only had a decent editor
17:10	technomancy	I point people to inferior-lisp if they're having a hard time getting nrepl working
17:10	justin_smith	justinholguin: I have a hack to add atom:link to clj-rss, which is something that validators seem to think should be there
17:10	technomancy	it's good to have a fallback
17:10	justin_smith	justinholguin: with a bit of work it could maybe be made a feature of clj-rss even
17:11	justinholguin	justin_smith: did you read my mind or my GitHub profile?
17:11	justin_smith	justinholguin: I was looking at the clj-rss code on gh and saw you were the last to commit
17:11	justin_smith	figured the nick carried over
17:12	justin_smith	though I guess I could actually make what I have into a proper PR
17:12	justinholguin	Yeah, so I figured
17:12	justinholguin	Cool, that library needs work.
17:12	justinholguin	I saw an open issue for that
17:12	justinholguin	But that's not really something I care about
17:12	justin_smith	justinholguin: https://www.refheap.com/80485
17:13	justin_smith	of course you probably don't want "localhost:33333" in the real outptut :)
17:13	justin_smith	and I don't know what kind of mess my brain was making of reality when I typed "clojure.edn" in the comment, hah
17:14	justinholguin	justin_smith: yes, that is a safe assumption. I would definitely recommend sending yogthos a PR
17:14	justin_smith	cool, will clean it up
17:14	justinholguin	I'm working on some unrelated issues I've been having with clj-rss, which incidentally appears to be the only library out there for generating RSS feeds with Clojure.
17:15	justin_smith	I figured that out :)
17:15	justinholguin	I keep forgetting that RSS is "dying" because I've used it every day for like 12 years
17:15	justin_smith	(also I found out the clojure web framework I help maintain totally fails to allow rss content type of non-static data at the moment :()
17:16	justinholguin	Which framework is that?
17:16	justin_smith	caribou
17:16	justin_smith	and yes I know frameworks are terrible, it's my job though :)
17:16	ticking	justinholguin: a edn based replacement would be nice though ^^
17:16	akurilin	Quick question, what do you guys use for storing slightly more involved external configuration than what can be handled with just env vars? e.g. I want to be able to read in a list of strings in my ring app at boot, should I use some sort of yaml/edn/json thingy?
17:16	gworley3	here's a simple enough question I could use some advice on: what's the best way to store a shared connection in a ring app? a ref? atom?
17:16	justinholguin	I use yaml, but I'm kind of a heretic.
17:17	justin_smith	akurilin: I use a set of edn files, and a boot time var to decide which one is loaded
17:17	bbloom	yaml is the worst thing ever.
17:18	akurilin	justin_smith: edn comes for free with 1.6, right?
17:18	justin_smith	gworley3: will the shared connection need a coordinated change alongside some other shared mutable value?
17:18	justinholguin	YAML is terrible, but it's easy to read and edit by hand. For me, that makes it a decent way to handle config files
17:18	justin_smith	akurilin: well even before that, given that all you need to do is call read on the bufferedstream (it's just safer in 1.6)
17:19	gworley3	justin_smith: nope. just need to come into existence once per jetty process and then be shared by all the threads (may eventually expand to pooling, but shouldn't be necessary since in this particular case i'm using rabbitmq)
17:19	justin_smith	akurilin: edn is just a json-like subset of clojure data literals
17:19	akurilin	justin_smith: yeah I guess since technically this isn't an unsafe file, I can just eval it?
17:19	justin_smith	gworley3: if it never changes, consider using delay or even a declare and a later def
17:19	gworley3	akurilin: edn is great
17:19	akurilin	bbloom: I hate anything that uses whitespace for formatting
17:19	justin_smith	akurilin: well read is fine, no need for eval even
17:20	bbloom	akurilin: whitespace is the least of yaml's problems
17:20	bbloom	irb(main):004:0> YAML.load("foo: 1\nyes: two\n3: :four\n'5': null")
17:20	bbloom	=> {"foo"=>1, true=>"two", 3=>:four, "5"=>nil}
17:20	justin_smith	akurilin: 1.6 just adds some extra reading safety, but it's your file so no need to be too worried
17:21	akurilin	justin_smith: fair enough, I'll play around with read then
17:21	bbloom	although this highlights one of my complaints about clojure's syntax too... true/false/nil look like symbols but aren't
17:21	justin_smith	akurilin: (-> "caribou/plugin/rss/dummy-input.edn" io/resource io/reader PushbackReader. edn/read))
17:21	justin_smith	akurilin: that is from the same project I was just quoting to justinholguin
17:21	akurilin	ah neat
17:21	gworley3	justin_smith: ah, delay looks like just the thing. thanks!
17:21	akurilin	thx
17:21	lemonodor	i like the google approach to app configuration: everything is a command line flag. if you want, you store them in a file and read them from there. everything that can be configured can be set in a file, or from the command line.
17:21	justin_smith	gworley3: np
17:22	lemonodor	it’s consistent between languages, and it’s consistent between deploying to 10K machines or running on your desktop
17:22	justin_smith	lemonodor: yes, it would be nice to have a lib that made that work with clojure (maybe it exists and I don't know it)
17:23	lemonodor	justin_smith: https://github.com/wiseman/clj-gflags (i’m new to clojure, it’s not done, etc.)
17:23	gworley3	on a related question, once i have this shared connection, rabbitmq has a concept of channels (it takes care of multiplexing requests across a single tcp connection using them) that i should create once per thread
17:23	justin_smith	lemonodor: cool!
17:24	justin_smith	gworley3: weird. I wonder if piggybacking on :dynamic vars (which by clojure definition have different bindings per thread) would be a win or lose there
17:24	gworley3	right now i have this set using (def ^:dynamic channel) that i later bring into existence when i need it, but is this actually thread local in this case? I'm using ring and compojure and it's not 100% clear to me when the threads get created
17:24	justin_smith	maybe someone with deeper expertise than me can weigh in on that
17:24	justin_smith	amalloy maybe
17:25	justinholguin	gworley3: just a note, dynamic vars should have earmuffs (channel). Their ears get cold.
17:25	justin_smith	gworley3: I think :dynamic means it can be different per thread, but in no way tells you it will be
17:25	gworley3	justinholguin: oh, they do; i just forgot them here
17:26	justin_smith	gworley3: mainly what I know about :dynamic is that it correlates highly with bugs in my code. That could be my fault, could be the feature's fault, I will need more learning before I know which.
17:28	gworley3	justin_smith: from the docs it mentions needing to use binding to set a thread local value, but in the case of using compojure it's not clear to me where i would need to stick this in
17:28	justin_smith	akurilin: that PushbackReader is java.io.PushbackReader btw (oddly, not covered by clojure.java.io)
17:28	justin_smith	gworley3: I don't think compojure has anything to do with that, or even ring, it has to do with the way the individual ring backend uses threads
17:29	justin_smith	gworley3: we had bugs with dynamic vars get exposed when trying to get http-kit compatibility
17:29	justin_smith	because http-kit does not use threads the same way jetty does
17:29	gworley3	hmm
17:30	justin_smith	at this point I consider "breaking bad code which misuses :dynamic" as a positive feature of http-kit
17:30	gworley3	justin_smith: yeah, i'm trying to make sure these vars end up doing what i want in a multithreaded environment using jetty, but right now it's a little fuzzy to me
17:30	akurilin	justin_smith: any particular reason for that specific class?
17:31	justin_smith	akurilin: edn/read needs it (as does the normal read iirc)
17:31	justin_smith	akurilin: a regular Reader does not suffice
17:31	amalloy	there are many ways to get a different value for a var per thread, but like justin_smith says, is that really what you want? if you do part of a job on one thread and want to spin some of the gruntwork for that job off to another thread, you may want them to share the resource, for example
17:33	amalloy	if you really truly want a fresh instance of something per thread, useful has a good tool for that: https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/flatland/useful/utils.clj#L201 lets you write (def channel (thread-local (make-a-channel)))
17:33	justin_smith	akurilin: you can more concisely do (edn/read-string (slurp (io/resource "file/path.edn"))) and punt on efficiency
17:34	amalloy	then each thread evaluates (make-a-channel) at most once, and @channel gets you the channel for that thread
17:34	gworley3	amalloy: i came across thread-local but was trying to see if i could do it with clojure primitives before i dug into that
17:35	gworley3	amalloy: i actually just found this while i've been on here and it suggests a way of using bound-fn: http://blog.steveolsen.us/dynamic-vars-in-ring-handlers/
17:47	bbloom	what causes files to get copied to target/classes ?
17:49	amalloy	bbloom: that's where lein puts them when you do aot, no?
17:49	bbloom	amalloy: i haven't done any aot compilation & these aren't .clj files
17:49	dbasch	bbloom: compilation
17:49	amalloy	bbloom: then i'd say it's some bad lein plugin?
17:49	amalloy	but it'd be .class files, not .clj files
17:50	amalloy	(if you were doing aot)
17:50	bbloom	they are files be loaded as resources out of src
18:02	technomancy	bbloom: maybe cljx or something
18:03	bbloom	technomancy: i'm not using any plugins for this project
18:03	technomancy	mysterious
18:03	bbloom	indeed
18:05	Bronsa	bbloom: using swank and compiling a file puts the .clj files in target/classes
18:05	bbloom	Bronsa: i use vim
18:05	Bronsa	maybe something similar happens with the vim plugin?
18:05	bbloom	i don't think so
18:05	Bronsa	bbloom: rm -rf target, connect via vim and compile the file & see if it gets populated
18:12	AWizzArd	About cider-nrepl: adding this as a :plugin to my :user profile is enough, right? I won’t need to add :nrepl-middleware to my :repl-options, yes?
18:13	gtrak	AWizzArd: correct
18:14	gtrak	that's basically the point of the plugin
18:14	AWizzArd	gtrak: k, thx
18:14	AWizzArd	gtrak: btw, does this plugin have anything to do with piggieback or cljs repls?
18:14	gtrak	yes
18:14	gtrak	rather, not the plugin bit
18:14	gtrak	but the middlewares do
18:15	gtrak	should just work when piggieback is active.
18:21	akurilin	justin_smith: good to know, thank you sir.
18:22	akurilin	On an unrelated note, what's a simple way of breaking lein ring unberjar?
18:22	akurilin	I need to make sure the script is handling the failure correctly
18:23	justin_smith	akurilin: having an invalid :handler in your project.clj :ring config?
18:23	justin_smith	or an invalid ring option maybe?
18:23	akurilin	hm let me try that in a bit, good call
18:23	justin_smith	depends where you want it to break I guess
18:25	amalloy	set your computer on fire
18:25	amalloy	that should break lein ring uberjar
18:25	justin_smith	lol
18:44	l1x	hi, has anybody seen this problem? https://gist.github.com/l1x/11305543
18:45	justin_smith	l1x: try (io/write (io/file file)), or just (io/writer file)
18:45	justin_smith	*io/writer of course
18:45	l1x	same results
18:46	justin_smith	what is "file" in that context
18:46	justin_smith	the name of a file?
18:46	justin_smith	an io/file?
18:46	justin_smith	and why are you calling str on it?
18:48	l1x	file is (io/file "string" "anotherstring")
18:48	l1x	i have tried both using it as it is and calling str on it
18:48	l1x	both fails
18:48	justin_smith	then yeah, calling string on the file is the wrong thing
18:50	l1x	fyi it works
18:50	justin_smith	which works?
18:50	l1x	both, using it as it is or calling str on it, both is supported for io/write
18:51	penthief	llx: data needs to be a String for the write method to be found.
18:51	l1x	and it works in repl, but not when i am calling it in the real code
18:51	justin_smith	calling str on the file object?
18:51	l1x	yes
18:51	l1x	penthief: thanks, that might be it
18:51	justin_smith	that's weird
18:52	justin_smith	yeah, I guess io/writer coerces strings to files
18:52	l1x	but you are right, it should be a File object it is better that way
18:53	amalloy	calling (str) on a file object gets you useless garbage
18:53	amalloy	,(str (java.io.File. "/tmp/foo"))
18:53	clojurebot	"/tmp/foo"
18:53	amalloy	huh. it doesn't? i didn't know that
18:53	justin_smith	amalloy: surprised me too :)
18:54	amalloy	i'm so used to its pr-str, i guess
18:54	cbp	:-P
18:54	l1x	and the winner is penthief
18:54	l1x	thanks bro, (str data) fixed the problem
18:54	l1x	it was a hashmap and i thought it is just a string
18:54	justin_smith	also, there is spit
18:54	l1x	now it works
18:55	l1x	amalloy: what are you talking about? calling str on a File returns you the operating system specific string that is your path to the file
18:55	l1x	eg on windows it is going to be \ on unix it is /
19:14	hyPiRion	,(str (java.io.File. "I'm not so sure\\"))
19:14	clojurebot	"I'm not so sure\\"
19:15	hyPiRion	Granted, a real file will give you a valid file name
19:15	TravisD	Is there a function that returns the first element of a seq satisfying some predicate? Something like (defn first-satisfying [p xs] (first (filter p xs)))
19:16	hyPiRion	TravisD: no, that's your best bet. Can define it as (def ffilter (comp first filter)) though
19:16	TravisD	ah, I like the name and definition :)
19:17	justin_smith	bonus points if you use metadata so ffilter has a doc string :)
19:17	justinholguin	,(doc some)
19:17	clojurebot	"([pred coll]); Returns the first logical true value of (pred x) for any x in coll, else nil. One common idiom is to use a set as pred, for example this will return :fred if :fred is in the sequence, otherwise nil: (some #{:fred} coll)"
19:17	justinholguin	TravisD: ^^^
19:17	justin_smith	(some even? (range)) justinholguin: not quite
19:17	justin_smith	,(some even? (range)) justinholguin: not quite
19:17	clojurebot	true
19:18	justin_smith	(oops)
19:18	TravisD	:(
19:18	justinholguin	Ah, I see
19:19	justin_smith	of course (some (apply set (all-even-numbers)) (range)) would work, but that set is expensive to construct :)
19:19	akurilin	So if want to cache some resources in memory when starting my ring app, is a promise delievered from ring's init handler pretty much my best bet?
19:20	akurilin	I basically just need to run a "def" that one time when init is run, but actually calling def is frowned upon afaik
19:20	justin_smith	akurilin: you could use an actual caching function, or even better use varnish in front of your app and let varnish do the caching
19:20	justin_smith	if the thing cached is the response to the client, that is
19:21	akurilin	justin_smith: in my case it's more of a large .json payload that I need to parse into memory and that is then used by a lot of the internal business logic. It's basically 100% like a totally static db.
19:21	TravisD	justinholguin: Wouldn't that still just return true?
19:21	akurilin	I just need to load it once.
19:21	TravisD	er, justin_smith ^^^
19:21	l1x	is there a way to convert a hashmap to a string without escaping quotes?
19:21	justin_smith	akurilin: fair enough
19:21	TravisD	sorry about that. Didn't realize you were both justins
19:21	justin_smith	TravisD: that was my point
19:21	justinholguin	We forgive you.
19:21	akurilin	justin_smith: so would a promise be a goot match there in your view?
19:22	justin_smith	heh, yeah, trickiness
19:22	justin_smith	I am one of 5 justins in my office
19:22	justin_smith	you could also do declare / def in init
19:22	justin_smith	but yeah, I think a promise is cleaner
19:22	TravisD	Hehe, Travis' are considerably rarer
19:22	guns	"Heather? Not me, Heather."
19:23	justin_smith	guns: yeah, it's pretty bad
19:23	justin_smith	the fun part is seeing all the emails meant for the other justins
19:23	justin_smith	and getting invited to meet with clients (one of the justins is a partner)
19:23	akurilin	justin_smith: fair enough. Do people ever try to bypass having to use @ to access promises to clean up the syntax by wrapping them in some kind of accessor or is it not worth it?
19:24	justin_smith	akurilin: that seems silly to me
19:24	justin_smith	I mean @ is an accessor (short for (deref ...))
19:24	akurilin	hey man, I save ONE entire character worth of typing, think about it!
19:24	akurilin	:P
19:24	justin_smith	a let binding, to keep things concise, maybe
19:25	akurilin	ok fair enough, I'll buy that
19:25	justin_smith	I go for the philosophy that the closer a binding is to usage, the shorter a name you can get away with
19:25	justin_smith	so ns + var should form something totally unambiguous when combined
19:26	guns	re variable length: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=840331
19:26	justin_smith	and then for things bound right before usage, go super small, sure
19:26	akurilin	justin_smith: were you the one who recommended the init startegy to me many months ago? As in, you have Ring's init, and from there you call all of the other various inits in different namespaces?
19:27	justin_smith	probably, that is how I do it (when namespaces need state of course)
19:27	justin_smith	but I am working on more and more having state be returned from an ns, rather than being in it
19:28	justin_smith	(big plan is a plugin system where features are returned by a constructor function in each plugin ns)
19:29	akurilin	I also wonder if maybe it's a good idea to have a separate namespace for all the state that gets accumulated at init
19:29	justin_smith	html / enlive question: what is my best bet when I have some html and I want to get a truncated plain text out of it - or is there even some sane way to handle that?
19:30	justin_smith	akurilin: ns app.state or some such?
19:30	akurilin	yeah, cause right now I have "model.foo" with its own state, and "model.bar" with its own state
19:30	akurilin	I guess we'll see on the long term
19:31	akurilin	it's like with routers, splitting them up in different files is fun until you get to about 3 routes, after that you re-write it all in one place :P
19:42	guns	I'm thinking about symmetrically encrypting runtime passwords to keep them out of stacktraces (so just obfuscation); is this too heavy handed? Is there a reliable way of filtering stacktraces?
19:44	hiredman	what do you mean "keep them out of stacktraces" ?
19:44	justin_smith	how would the string end up in the stack trace - an exception handler that leaks info in constructing its message?
19:45	justin_smith	*exception thrower that is
19:45	technomancy	you mean core dumps?
19:45	guns	The record with password field gets pr-strd
19:46	justin_smith	by some tracing code, or in a stack trace?
19:46	justin_smith
19:46	guns	just stack trace to a log file
19:46	guns	technomancy: I won't bother with local attackers
19:46	guns	a local user can just get root and use gdb
19:56	justin_smith	guns: in that case, what about making sure the stacktrace never leaves the server?
19:56	justin_smith	then you only have local to worry about
19:57	guns	justin_smith: I won't be controlling the infrastructure
19:57	guns	It's actually an IMAP client
19:57	justin_smith	ahh
19:58	justin_smith	so you can't be sure the client doesn't see a server stack trace
19:58	guns	I'm pretty sure they would see it :) and they're the sort of folks that would storm the gates
19:59	justin_smith	what about a redesign such that the actual password is never in a record? shouldn't you be comparing to a salted hash anyway?
20:00	guns	justin_smith: No, the actual IMAP password is needed to connect to the server; this is different from typical auth scenarios
20:00	justin_smith	ahh
20:01	justin_smith	I mean I would call that an infrastructural flaw that the password needs to be passed around like the village bicycle, but that's out of your control if you want to use that protocol
20:01	guns	It's up to the user. they can always use 2-factor auth with gmail etc
20:01	justin_smith	you could put the password inside a Byte[]
20:01	justin_smith	it is still readable by applying str, but won't get printed
20:02	justin_smith	,(.getBytes "hello")
20:02	clojurebot	#<byte[] [B@aeddb5>
20:02	justin_smith	,(apply str (.getBytes "hello"))
20:02	clojurebot	"104101108108111"
20:03	justin_smith	that at least prevents any legible printing, with a low overhead
20:03	dbasch	guns: keep passwords in memory only while you need them, don’t pass them around
20:03	justin_smith	oh oops!
20:03	fortruce_	when using clojure.lang.RT/loadLibrary, where does the Classloader attempt to find my library at, i'm getting UnsatisfiedLinkErrors trying to use OpenCV
20:03	guns	that's true; I might opt for that. I'll think a little harder about keeping the password in memory
20:03	dbasch	guns: passwords should be very short-lived in memory anyway
20:03	justin_smith	,(String. (.getBytes "hello"))
20:03	clojurebot	"hello"
20:03	guns	dbasch: I think that's right. It's convenient for me; but the user should just be using gpg-agent or whatever anyway
20:05	amalloy	huh. i thought java had a SecureString or something like in C#
20:06	justin_smith	amalloy: maybe, but byte[] does what you want from it in terms of printing at least
20:07	justin_smith	or char[] I guess
20:07	guns	justin_smith: if you're going to do that; it's not that much harder to XOR, and not much harder to use AES
20:08	guns	As long as it's understood that it's just obfuscation, no encryption
20:08	justin_smith	guns: the printed rep of byte[] reveals nothing of hte content
20:08	justin_smith	that's what you wanted, right?
20:08	guns	justin_smith: yes, it was.
20:08	guns	and it's a good point
20:09	justin_smith	or am I missing something?
20:09	justin_smith	If you already punt on local attacks, an xor or aes or whatever don't get you anything the untrintable representation didn't
20:09	guns	no, not at all; I concede the point
20:09	guns	dbasch is right in the end
20:10	justin_smith	hah, that was my first tack too
20:11	justin_smith	err not my first, but on of
20:12	justin_smith	another consideration regarding byte[] - since string is immutible you can't zero it out or obfuscate it when done, so it is hanging around until garbage collected
20:13	guns	I can just unload the responsibility of password storage to gpg-agent, and whatever's built into OS X; my only concern was efficiency, but it's really nothing in comparison to the IO
20:13	guns	thanks everyone!
20:18	dbasch	justin_smith: that’s probably the case regardless, unless you control all layers of communication between the client and your app
20:20	justin_smith	dbasch: the various caching spots?
20:21	dbasch	justin_smith: no, your server. nginx, jetty, etc.
20:21	justin_smith	right, I mean caching abstractly, each of those has places where things stick around in memory
20:22	dbasch	yes
20:22	gworley3	back again with another question and possibly free SO points. anyone know how to do what i'm trying to do: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/23305042/automatically-require-dependent-namespace-in-clojure-macro
20:23	justin_smith	though ideally one could transfer and use credentials in such a way that the password is only plaintext in one specific place, and then one has the power to clear out the thing once done with if it is mutible
20:23	amalloy	gworley3: your problem is imaginary. they don't need to refer to env
20:23	dbasch	justin_smith: that’s really what oauth is for
20:24	gworley3	amalloy: oh?
20:24	amalloy	try macroexpanding that. you'll see that it expands to environ.core/env
20:24	justin_smith	yeah, that way you don't even need to pass the password around (what I was referring to with my talk about treating the password like a community bicycle above)
20:24	guns	I bet memset(p,0,n) isn't even guaranteed on cheapo RAM
20:24	gworley3	amalloy: yep, i've already seen that it does that
20:25	amalloy	syntax-quote fully-qualifies all symbols within it, for just this reason
20:25	amalloy	okay, so what's the problem? clearly there's no :refer needed in the caller's namespace
20:25	justin_smith	gworley3: once required, the ns exists throughout the clojure process, loading the ns is not a per-parent thing
20:25	gworley3	amalloy: but when it include in a namespace without requiring environ.core, i get "unable to resolve symbol"
20:26	amalloy	gworley3: you must be misunderstanding either what you're doing or what the error message means, because that isn't what happens
20:26	amalloy	you still have to require gworley3.utils, of course, but the reference to environ.core is unnecessary
20:27	gworley3	"Exception in thread "main" java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: env in this context"
20:28	justin_smith	but env won't end up in that code - it will be fully qualified, that is what ` does
20:28	justin_smith	something else is called env
20:28	gworley3	oh, you know what, you're right; i'm dumb
20:28	justin_smith	did you have an arg called env nearby?
20:28	gworley3	yeah, it was part of some other new code i had been writing and forgot about while i was doing the refactor to add the macro
20:28	justin_smith	err I mean code that referred to something called env
20:29	gworley3	welp, guess i learned the lesson that i actually know more about how macros work than i thought and should have looked for a more mundane explanation
20:29	justin_smith	also, read stack traces carefully
20:30	justin_smith	(pst) is your friend
20:30	arrdem	As is (e)
20:31	justin_smith	arrdem: *e ?
20:31	amalloy	gworley3: on the other hand, why is this a macro? write a function (defn env* [name default] (fn ([] (or (env name) default)) ([x] x))), (def username (env :username "mike"))
20:31	amalloy	er, (def username (env* :username "mike"))
20:32	gworley3	amalloy: so i only have to write username once instead of twice
20:33	justin_smith	at a certain point DRY has deminishing returns I think
20:33	amalloy	i think that's a questionable economy, but if you're set on it, you should still define a function that does the actual work, and then a macro that wraps the little bit of sugar around it
20:34	gworley3	amalloy: that makes sense. this is actually the first time i've done something i could only dry up by writing a macro
20:34	gworley3	normally i try to stick to functions
20:37	amalloy	really you can even write this as a function, by using intern instead of def. but again i'm not convinced that that's super-amazing
21:28	dnolen_	DataScript + Om example just so people can start experimenting https://gist.github.com/swannodette/11308901
21:29	dnolen_	that said, lots of potential here
21:29	ToxicFrog	Oh my god death to Java sockets
21:34	bbloom	dnolen_: pretty cool. coupled with the use of equiv, you'll be passing around tuples of [entity-id transaction-id] to all your react components in no time ;-)
21:34	dnolen_	bbloom: actually I think most people will just pass entities
21:34	dnolen_	bbloom: you just need to add entity caching over DataScript
21:35	dnolen_	get all the flexibilty of Datomic for the data model
21:35	dnolen_	w/o changing how components work and w/o losing fast rendering
21:35	bbloom	dnolen_: that definitely will be nice
21:36	irctc	hello
21:36	llasram	hello
21:37	bbloom	dnolen_: what would be cool would be if you could somehow hook the server side transaction log & stream "relevant" datoms down to the browser
21:38	bbloom	not at all clear how you'd enable that w/o lots of custom work, but it would certainly be nicer than some half baked backbone/socket.io clusterfuck
21:38	tomjack	seems like maybe a can of worms though?
21:38	akhudek	bbloom: we just recently did this for sql, worked out really well. Planning on doing a source release at some point.
21:38	bbloom	akhudek: cool
21:39	dnolen_	bbloom: yes that's the next step
21:39	akhudek	bbloom: basically we have materialized views sitting in the browser, then any changes to the server database cause deltas to be sent to efficiently update any relevent client views
21:40	dnolen_	bbloom: DataScript's making me rethink some assumptions about how Om works (a good thing). It's much a better M story than what you see in most JS MVCs
21:40	dnolen_	definitely something I thought about when I was working on Om, but too lazy to implement the Datomic API, glad somebody else picked it up
21:41	tomjack	do you set up filtered server txlog to auto-transact into client's db?
21:42	tomjack	and not transact into that db at all from the client otherwise?
21:43	tomjack	s/db/conn/
21:44	tomjack	I guess my confusion is where the boundaries are between the client and server databases
21:44	dnolen_	tomjack: that needs sorting out
21:44	dnolen_	tomjack: I'm mostly interested in the repercussions for data modeling on the client side as well as repercussions for app structure
21:45	bbloom	akhudek: that's neat. i'm curious to see how it came out
21:46	bbloom	dnolen_: yeah, the cursor stuff seems to make sense for view-level state, but i was never sold on it for the M layer
21:46	dnolen_	bbloom: def, that's where it's kinda busted
21:47	dnolen_	bbloom: but widgets will want to update an entity, so you need some kind of reference back to the original data, but cursors may very well be overkill for this
21:47	bbloom	dnolen_: i think you can do much better for view state than the cursor approach too, but it's a pretty reasonable approximation of the "right" solution for both, so rather than dissuad you from going that route i wanted to see how far you could push it
21:47	bbloom	answer: pretty far :-)
21:47	bbloom	dnolen_: well, entities have a db ident in them, right?
21:48	dnolen_	bbloom: yep, the cursor idea was separate from the real goal anyway - efficient time travel
21:48	dnolen_	the end is more important than the particular means
21:48	dnolen_	bbloom: yes
21:49	dnolen_	re: db ident
21:49	bbloom	dnolen_: i'd be interested to see if you can decouple the om design from the cursor such that you can ship om.cursor as a separate library for compat sake as you move towards supporting/encouraging various ad-hoc external state mechanisms
21:50	bbloom	dnolen_: actually, i'd imagine such a cursor library could have zero dependencies on om entirely & still work w/ virtually the same api
21:50	dnolen_	bbloom: yeah, cursors are completely protocolized
21:50	dnolen_	so I think we're OK for a transition to something better if need be.
21:52	bbloom	dnolen_: you might want to re-read some of the crazy ramblings on awelonblue about ad-hoc external state
21:52	dnolen_	bbloom: will do
21:52	bbloom	dnolen_: also, here's the awelonblue/plan9/datomic inspired external state tree thing i was talking talking about: https://github.com/brandonbloom/exstate/blob/master/src/exstate/core.clj
21:53	TerranceWarrior	there a way to get upscroll in the Clojure REPL?
21:54	bbloom	dnolen_: i'm not sold on the tree shape, but i'm quite happy with the division of labor of the 5 protocols in there
21:54	zspencer	I'm sure there's a canonical blog post about looping until a predicate is met
21:54	zspencer	Anyone want to point me there?
21:54	zspencer	I'm doing loop recur, but the function may have side effects (callback prints things to screen)
21:54	bbloom	dnolen_: the snapshotting model would work quite nicely with a render loop
21:54	dnolen_	bbloom: yeah I think I'm finally coming around to the fact that trees are good for components, not good for the application - you want a real data model for that
21:55	guns	TerranceWarrior: That depends on the REPL, terminal, etc
21:56	guns	zspencer: If you're not accumulating a value, then there's `while`
21:56	dbasch	zspencer: you mean while ?
21:56	zspencer	dbasch: guns: derp I am truly an idiot
22:01	TerranceWarrior	guns: java -cp clojure-1.6.0.jar clojure.main
22:02	guns	TerranceWarrior: Then it's up to the terminal to provide scrollback
22:02	guns	TerranceWarrior: try tmux if your terminal doesn't have it
22:05	technomancy	TerranceWarrior: the repl that ships with clojure is kinda junk
22:05	TerranceWarrior	guns: ok
22:05	technomancy	well, not just kinda.
22:05	guns	:) rlwrap to the rescue
22:05	jcromartie	Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: com.google.common.io.ByteStreams.limit(Ljava/io/InputStream;J)Ljava/io/InputStream;
22:05	jcromartie	when compiling ClojureScript code :(
22:05	danneu	Is there way to make it so that byte-arrays print out like `#<byte[] [00 aa bb cc dd]>` instead of `#<byte[] [B@170eca98>`? (To see the hex of its contents).
22:05	johnrx	Any pointers on getting a better "out of the box REPL" technomancy ?
22:05	johnrx	I never envisaged to change it...
22:06	jcromartie	this is pretty mysterious to me https://gist.github.com/jcromartie/6571f07675cd4768a308
22:07	technomancy	johnrx: depends on what box you're talking about
22:08	guns	danneu: I believe you can do this by extending print-method
22:09	johnrx	To be honest, I never thought of improving the REPL. It's still a little foreign for me.
22:09	johnrx	I don't really know where to start exploring. I'm still using it in a very Pythonic way...
22:09	danneu	no limit on that byte stream. your compiler is open to heartbleed
22:10	TerranceWarrior	guns: invalid.
22:11	technomancy	johnrx: leiningen ships with a much better repl, including a readline port
22:11	technomancy	but I don't know if it's worth trying to improve the one that ships with clojure
22:11	johnrx	technomancy: you mean the one when you "lein repl" ?
22:12	guns	jline2 is in the uncanny valley for me; so close
22:12	guns	TerranceWarrior: ?
22:13	technomancy	johnrx: yeah
22:13	jcromartie	it's my dependency on clojurewerkz/urly
22:14	johnrx	technomancy: This is what I use :) I thought this was the standard REPL for Clojure, since it's (for me) the easiest and quickest way to get running.
22:17	jcromartie	I should jettison that dependency just for being called "clojurewerkz/urly"
22:18	guns	danneu: (defmethod print-method (Class/forName "[B") [v w] (.write w (str (mapv #(symbol (format "%02x" %)) v))))
22:19	guns	,(byte-array [0 127 255])
22:19	clojurebot	#<byte[] [B@1f782b8>
22:19	guns	I guess that's not allowed
22:20	guns	by the bot I mean; works in the REPL
22:22	llasram	guns: Well, you didn't have clojurebot eval the print-method definition
22:22	guns	llasram: oh, I guess I don't know much about the bot
22:22	guns	oh I forgot the ,
22:22	guns	,(defmethod print-method (Class/forName "[B") [v w] (.write w (str (mapv #(symbol (format "%02x" %)) v))))
22:22	clojurebot	#<MultiFn clojure.lang.MultiFn@1952e89>
22:22	guns	,(byte-array [0 127 255])
22:22	clojurebot	[00 7f ff]
22:27	jcromartie	in ClojureScript, how can I access the results of document.getElementsByTagName(…) as a seq?
22:27	jcromartie	the result is not seqable
22:27	jcromartie	and I can't coerce it to a vector
22:28	jcromartie	i.e. what's wrong with this? (def body (-> js/document (.getElementsByTagName "body") first))
22:31	guns	jcromartie: IIRC that's a NodeList; I'm not sure why that doesn't implement ISeq, but there's probably a good reason for it
22:31	guns	you can use the native methods to iterate, or maybe implement the seq protocols yourself
22:39	j201	jcromartie: (def body (-> js/document (.getElementsByTagName "body") array-seq first))
22:43	j201	or (def body (.-body js/document))
22:54	fortruce_	how do I call into a java method that modifies one of the args as the return value
22:57	fortruce_	nvm, I got it
23:05	TerranceWarrior	anyone else us eclipse with clojure?
23:06	ivan	I wanted to SSH into a Clojure REPL a week ago: https://gist.github.com/candera/11310395
23:08	TerranceWarrior	i installed the plugin for eclipse. but i get a an empty memory window for a new clojure project.
23:16	Frozenlock	ivan: What's the benefit?
23:16	Frozenlock	Versus using the usual SSH on your machine that is
23:20	ivan	Frozenlock: nREPL as everyone uses it allows anyone on the machine to connect to your REPL
23:24	xhh	any knows is there a way to access ENV variables in project.clj?
23:26	bbloom	xhh: i think the whole project.clj file is in a syntax-quote, so you can just ~(some code here) and get env vars the normal way
23:26	xhh	bbloom: thanks, will try
23:30	xhh	bbloom: you are right, System/getenv works in project.clj, thanks again
23:51	johnjelinek	hihi all
23:51	johnjelinek	is anyone available to review my code to see if it's idiomatic or if it sucks?
23:52	TerranceWarrior	i think after I get a Doctorial in computer configuration I'll be able to upgrade the REPL under Eclipse.