#clojure – 2014-04-16

2014-04-16

00:00	amalloy	&(doc promise)
00:00	lazybot	⇒ "([]); Alpha - subject to change. Returns a promise object that can be read with deref/@, and set, once only, with deliver. Calls to deref/@ prior to delivery will block, unless the variant of deref with timeout is used. All subsequent derefs will return the same del... https://www.refheap.com/76684
00:01	amalloy	plus, i mean, you have all of java.util.concurrent at your fingertips if you want it
00:01	amalloy	derek_c: ^
00:03	derek_c	amalloy: how does promise solve the problem?
00:04	amalloy	you give the thread a promise to block on, and deliver to it when you're "done"
00:05	derek_c	amalloy: hmm I don't think that's what I'm trying to do... I described my problem in more details here: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/23098575/how-do-you-block-a-thread-until-a-condition-becomes-true
00:05	derek_c	I know I can just use java.concurrent, but there has to be a Clojure way
00:06	beamso	,(doc deliver)
00:06	clojurebot	"([promise val]); Delivers the supplied value to the promise, releasing any pending derefs. A subsequent call to deliver on a promise will have no effect."
00:06	amalloy	rich encourages you to use j.u.c if it contains a solution to your problem. there aren't wrappers around that stuff because it's already good
00:07	amalloy	derek_c: also, you said "condition", which is like a real thing in concurrent programming, distinct from "some condition is true"
00:09	derek_c	amalloy: ok... but maybe there is a way to do without condition variables. I'm really just trying to solve a simple concurrency probelm
00:09	derek_c	here: http://upl.io/czj5ag
00:10	derek_c	I'm modeling each sim as a thread, and the bathroom is the shared resource
00:11	derek_c	and each sim starts in one of two initial states: either it wants to wash hands, or it wants to use the toilet
00:11	derek_c	and it exits after it finishes what it wanted to do
00:14	guns	Interestingly, you could probably solve this problem with a channel with custom buffer implementation
00:15	guns	hand washer = 1, toilet user = MAX_VALUE
00:17	guns	derek_c: (a fixed buffer of course)
00:18	derek_c	guns: channel is not a Clojure primitive though?
00:19	amalloy	wait, isn't this just a reader/writer lock?
00:19	guns	derek_c: you would need a custom implementation that read an object's "size"
00:19	guns	*buffer implementation
00:19	derek_c	guns: there are lots of ways to solve this problem if we model the bathroom as another separate thread that accepts requests from sims
00:19	derek_c	amalloy: yes, it is
00:20	beamso	modelling it as a thread seems like overkill
00:20	amalloy	like, in clojure if you need a reader/writer lock, you use http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/util/concurrent/locks/ReentrantReadWriteLock.html
00:20	guns	derek_c: I thought you wanted something "clojurey"
00:20	amalloy	why would you reinvent such a wheel, when really smart people already have it for you
00:21	derek_c	amalloy: I wouldn't if I was writing a real application... I was just wondering if this problem is solvable with the Clojure primitives, like vars, refs, atoms, and agents
00:21	derek_c	so seems like it's at least not easily solvable
00:21	amalloy	well, none of those really like blocking
00:21	amalloy	but that's what promises are for
00:22	derek_c	amalloy: I see
00:22	amalloy	i dunno, maybe i'm wrong about promises
00:22	derek_c	ok thanks guys
00:56	xsyn	Can I ask a stupid question about frequencies
00:56	xsyn	I do a frequencies on a dataset I have and it returns pretty much what I expect
00:57	xsyn	except when I do a (vals (frequencies data)) I get the response of a single val which is equivalent to all the frequencies added
00:58	xsyn	and if I do a (keys (frequencies data)) I get (" ")
00:59	guns	xsyn: have some sample data?
01:00	xsyn	nevermind
01:00	xsyn	I found it
01:00	xsyn	it was a typo :/
02:35	gko_	What are code-conversion-work-xxxxx buffers? they pop up from time to time when I open a file...
02:35	gko_	wrong channel, sorry
02:47	yedi	man... learning simple devops stuff sucks
02:48	ivan	it might be because every devops tool is not good
03:01	sdegutis	Good morning.
03:01	sdegutis	Anyone awake?
03:11	dissipate	tools.logging vs. timbre
03:11	dissipate	hmm
03:11	dissipate	tools.logging looks pretty disappointing. i don't feel like slogging through log4j's documentation.
03:15	derek_c	does anyone know if the coroutines created by core.async.go get mapped into actual threads or not?
03:16	derek_c	or do they just run in the same thread, like in Python and JS?
03:16	systemfault	You should watch the nice video on them
03:22	amalloy	derek_c: well, they run literally in javascript, in cljs. so definitely not multiple threads in that case
03:23	amalloy	on the jvm, i'm not sure
03:52	Frozenlock	, (clojure.core/read-string (str {:a #"regexp"}))
03:52	clojurebot	{:a #"regexp"}
03:53	Frozenlock	, (clojure.edn/read-string (str {:a #"regexp"}))
03:53	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.edn>
03:53	Frozenlock	, (require 'clojure.edn)
03:53	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>
03:53	Frozenlock	-_-
03:53	Frozenlock	Anyhow, my point was, it doesn't work. Any idea why?
03:54	Frozenlock	Seems I can't read a regexp with the edn/read-string
03:54	amalloy	Frozenlock: are regular expressions defined as part of the edn spec?
03:55	Frozenlock	Eh, doesn't look like it https://github.com/edn-format/edn
03:55	amalloy	so...
03:56	Frozenlock	So I'll have to use core/read-string
03:56	Frozenlock	And hope not to be #'ed
03:56	Frozenlock	:-p
03:56	maxthoursie	but you could define your own reader macros for edn, couldn't you?
03:57	Frozenlock	Last time I used core/read-string, the safest way was with read-eval to false. Is there any new practice?
03:58	maxthoursie	no, I confused that with tagged elements
04:00	maxthoursie	Frozenlock: related https://github.com/edn-format/edn/issues/26
04:00	maxthoursie	I guess the portability issue is the reason
04:00	Frozenlock	Yeah, regexes are weird beasts for clojure
04:01	maxthoursie	we'll, even outside clojure
04:01	maxthoursie	that's the point, I guess, edn is made to be useful outside clojure
04:01	maxthoursie	a regexp wouldn't
04:02	Frozenlock	Perhaps, but in clojure I can feel it often... you can't check them for equality either.
04:02	Frozenlock	(And thus are unusable as key in a map)
04:03	trap_exit	are there builtin functions for arraybuffer -> string and string -> arraybuffer in clojurescript ?
04:03	maxthoursie	Didn't know that
04:03	Frozenlock	I've been spoiled by being able to use everything as a key :p
04:03	Frozenlock	, (= #"." #".")
04:03	clojurebot	false
04:06	trap_exit	argh
04:06	clojurebot	No entiendo
04:06	trap_exit	bhow do I get arraybuffer/string translation ? :-)
04:06	maxthoursie	I think someone had a lib for that
04:57	maxthoursie	so internet says turning of read-eval is not enough. What other things could cause side effects?
05:00	maxthoursie	found a relevant link: http://grokbase.com/t/gg/clojure/132bt7kyzx/ann-never-use-clojure-core-read-or-read-string-for-reading-untrusted-data/132cdm08r4#132cdm08r4
05:02	Frozenlock	maxthoursie: As far as I understand, read-string with read-eval to false is 'safe-but-cant-guarantee-it-wont-bite-you-in-the-ass' :-/
05:02	Frozenlock	At least since 1.5.0
05:02	maxthoursie	Frozenlock: that's what I gather too
05:03	maxthoursie	but I'm failing to see the difference
05:03	maxthoursie	clojure should use the edn reader
05:04	Frozenlock	But the edn reader can't read everything...
05:09	Frozenlock	Another EDN case that's driving me crazy: keywords starting with a number. In clojure it's not a problem. However, because it's not in the EDN spec, cljs doesn't support it. :-(
05:10	ambrosebs	,:1a
05:10	clojurebot	:1a
05:10	Frozenlock	ambrosebs: it works fine in Clojure
05:10	yotsov	Bronsa: hello, question regarding tools.emitter.jvm. I see it currently depends on ASM. Are there plans to remove this dependency (impression I got from one talk), or is ASM there to stay?
05:11	ambrosebs	Frozenlock: Clojure does almost no error checking. Unsurprising.
05:12	Frozenlock	Are you saying it shouldn't work?
05:12	ambrosebs	Frozenlock: I'm saying just because it compiles doesn't mean that much.
05:45	Frozenlock	xeqi: shouldn't `form-and-button' also accept a :button element? https://github.com/xeqi/kerodon/blob/master/src/kerodon/impl.clj#L47
05:46	Frozenlock	(I might be wrong, but I usually use a :button with type :submit, rather than a :input)
06:19	petron	why is my Top K quickselect implementation error'ing out on some inputs? https://www.refheap.com/76711
06:22	irctc	Hello some body tell me how i am create the testing data base in clojure
06:26	irctc	Hello some body tell me how i am create the testing data base in clojure
06:29	clgv	,(meta #'some-fn)
06:29	clojurebot	{:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name some-fn, :added "1.3", :file "clojure/core.clj", :column 1, ...}
06:29	clgv	1.3 for real?
06:30	Averell	petron: your partitioning only works for sorted coll
06:36	arav93	Hi, I need some help with clojure.instant
06:37	pyrtsa	Just ask the question.
06:40	arav93	Could someone tell me how parse-timestamp works in clojure.instant
06:43	llasram	In what sense?
06:46	pyrtsa	arav93: Did you read the source already? https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/instant.clj#L48-L118
06:47	arav93	I read it but I'm unable to get it working.
06:50	pyrtsa	arav93: How about using one of https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/instant.clj#L271-L288 ?
06:51	arav93	pyrtsa: I do not understand how
06:52	Frozenlock	,(clojure.instant/read-instant-timestamp "1985-04-12T23:20:50.52Z")
06:52	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>
06:52	Frozenlock	o_O
06:52	pyrtsa	(clojure.instant/read-instant-date "2014-04-16T12:34:56+01:00")
06:52	pyrtsa	,(clojure.instant/read-instant-date "2014-04-16T12:34:56+01:00")
06:52	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>
06:53	Frozenlock	Dangerous dates are dangerous
06:53	pyrtsa	,#inst "2014-04-16T12:34:56+01:00"
06:53	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>
06:53	pyrtsa	arav93: If it's user input, pass in a string. If you've got a literal string in source code, just use `#inst "..."`.
06:54	pyrtsa	(...and let the Clojure reader do the conversion for you.)
06:56	arav93	pyrtsa: Could you explain a lil better?
06:58	pyrtsa	For user input, something like (let [t (clojure.instant/read-instant-xxx s)] ...), for literals, (let [t #inst "2014-04-16T00:00:00.000+00:00"] ...)
06:59	pyrtsa	...where xxx depends on which type of result you want (java.util.Date / java.sql.Timestamp / java.util.GregorianCalendar).
06:59	pyrtsa	And s was a string, of course.
07:16	agarman	@Frozenlock - what's up?
07:16	Frozenlock	I -JUST- spoke about how regex can't be equal in Clojure. Yet, I wondered why one of my tests was failing.
07:16	Frozenlock	Turns out there was a regex in the map
07:18	AimHere	When some people find an inappropriate regular expression in their code, they bang their head on the keyboard. Now they have two regular expressions in their code.
07:19	Frozenlock	,(= {:a 1 :b #"surprise"} {:a 1 :b #"surprise"})
07:19	clojurebot	false
07:33	katox	Frozenlock: that's deliberate?
07:36	Frozenlock	katox: It was deemed somewhat irrelevant http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1182
07:38	katox	hm, yeah regarding this as two regexps are equal when they accept the same language is a bit complicated requirement ;)
07:39	katox	s/when/iff
07:45	perses	if i want to write a function which take str and separator, and split it at separator, (defn gsplit [str separator] (clojure.string/split string #separator)) , is this right?
07:46	perses	>(defn gsplit [str separator] (clojure.string/split str #separator)
07:46	perses	> (defn gsplit [str separator] (clojure.string/split str #separator)
07:46	perses	,(defn gsplit [str separator] (clojure.string/split str #separator)
07:46	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: )>
07:46	perses	,(defn gsplit [str separator] (clojure.string/split str #separator))
07:46	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: )>
07:47	agarman	, (fn gsplit [s sep] (clojure.string/split s sep))
07:47	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval69$gsplit__70 sandbox$eval69$gsplit__70@1ebd60d>
07:47	vijaykiran	,(clojure.string/split "test,5,-,stuff-more" #"-")
07:47	clojurebot	["test,5," ",stuff" "more"]
07:47	agarman	, (gsplit "foo:bar" ":")
07:47	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: gsplit in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
07:47	vijaykiran	,(clojure.string/split "test,5,-,stuff-more" #",")
07:47	clojurebot	["test" "5" "-" "stuff-more"]
07:48	agarman	, (doc clojure.string/split)
07:48	clojurebot	"([s re] [s re limit]); Splits string on a regular expression. Optional argument limit is the maximum number of splits. Not lazy. Returns vector of the splits."
07:48	arav93	Hi, I did (clojure.instant/read-instant-timestamp "1985-04-12T23:20:50.52Z") and I got #inst "1985-04-12T23:20:50.520000000-00:00" How do I pass this to parse-timestamp?
07:50	katox	, (class (clojure.instant/read-instant-timestamp "1985-04-12T23:20:50.52Z"))
07:50	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>
07:51	katox	;) nvm, should be java.sql.Timestamp, why another parse?
07:52	arav93	I'm trying to work clojure.instant ns.
07:57	katox	,(source clojure.instant/read-instant-timestamp)
07:57	clojurebot	Source not found\n
07:58	katox	hmm, ok https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/5e9ad16e11aad1228ca3d1b0a9c3b52ccd602dbc/src/clj/clojure/instant.clj#L283
08:01	arav93	I did not understand much by reading through this , katox
08:03	katox	arav93: not sure what are you asking about but that snippet shows that a Timestamp object is constructed first in a function that is returned to parse a sequence
08:03	katox	arav93: that fn can be called by a reader that you setup
08:10	perses	i have a very large file and i want to read line by line, and then process line then do the next line, what is the best way to do this?
08:11	Anderkent	perses: (with-open [rdr (clojure.java.io/reader "/my/file")] (for [line (line-seq rdr)] (do-stuff-to line)))
08:11	perses	Anderkent: is this the efficient way to do this?
08:11	Anderkent	oh, might have to wrap the for in doall
08:12	Anderkent	yes, line-seq is lazy
08:14	perses	Anderkent: so what should it be?
08:14	perses	(with-open [rdr (clojure.java.io/reader "/my/file")] (doall (for [line (line-seq rdr)] (do-stuff-to line)))) ?
08:14	Anderkent	yeah
08:14	Anderkent	well. Depends if you need the results of do-stuff-to-line
08:14	Anderkent	or if you only care about side effects
08:15	Anderkent	doall if you need the results, dorun if you only need side effects
08:15	clgv	perses: you could also "slurp" the file and use clojure.string/split on it
08:15	Anderkent	clgv: see 'very large' above
08:15	clgv	Anderkent: ah ok. didnt see that
08:15	perses	thanks guys
08:15	Anderkent	I'm reading 'very large' as gigabytes though, perses if it's just a couple megs just slurp it :)
08:16	clgv	gigabytes? terrabytes! ;)
08:25	perses	,(get (list 1 2 3) 0)
08:25	clojurebot	nil
08:25	perses	,(get [1 2 3] 0)
08:25	clojurebot	1
08:25	Anderkent	,(nth (list 1 2 3) 0)
08:25	clojurebot	1
08:25	perses	,(0 (list 1 2 3))
08:25	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
08:26	perses	i guess if get is polymorphic function will be very good, but why isn't?
08:26	perses	so get can work for list or vector or map
08:26	Anderkent	get is for getting a value from a structure that can be indexed
08:26	Anderkent	like a map or a vector
08:26	Anderkent	nth is for getting the nth value from a sequence
08:28	perses	so nth for list is more efficient than get for vector?
08:29	Anderkent	no, get for a vector is more efficient than nth; but you cant 'get' from a list, because you can not index a list
08:29	Anderkent	a list only lets you get the first element, or get all other elements
08:30	jcromartie	I see very little performance difference between get and nth for a vector
08:32	Anderkent	right, it might check if the collection is indexed or not, if it does then there's not much difference
08:32	Anderkent	if it doesn't and behaves like `last`, then it's o(n) rather than o(1)
08:33	jcromartie	,(dotimes [_ 10] (let [n 1e6, v (vec (range n))] (time (dotimes [_ n] (get v (rand-int n))))))
08:33	clojurebot	#<OutOfMemoryError java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space>
08:33	jcromartie	oh fine be like that
08:33	Anderkent	hah
08:33	Anderkent	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/RT.java#L761
08:33	Anderkent	it does check
08:34	jcromartie	,(let [n 1e6, v (vec (range n))] (dotimes [_ 10] (time (dotimes [_ n] (nth v (rand-int n))))))
08:34	clojurebot	#<OutOfMemoryError java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space>
08:34	jcromartie	,(let [n 1e5, v (vec (range n))] (dotimes [_ 10] (time (dotimes [_ n] (nth v (rand-int n))))))
08:34	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 57.234936 msecs"\n"Elapsed time: 22.612508 msecs"\n"Elapsed time: 22.719057 msecs"\n"Elapsed time: 20.353758 msecs"\n"Elapsed time: 20.465892 msecs"\n"Elapsed time: 19.734251 msecs"\n"Elapsed time: 24.6308 msecs"\n"Elapsed time: 21.561721 msecs"\n"Elapsed time: 20.138097 msecs"\n"Elapsed time: 19.321783 msecs"\n
08:34	jcromartie	,(let [n 1e5, v (vec (range n))] (dotimes [_ 10] (time (dotimes [_ n] (get v (rand-int n))))))
08:34	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 28.693759 msecs"\n"Elapsed time: 30.672505 msecs"\n"Elapsed time: 23.772632 msecs"\n"Elapsed time: 22.376006 msecs"\n"Elapsed time: 22.670438 msecs"\n"Elapsed time: 21.908001 msecs"\n"Elapsed time: 22.869125 msecs"\n"Elapsed time: 22.611847 msecs"\n"Elapsed time: 22.509958 msecs"\n"Elapsed time: 21.313093 msecs"\n
08:34	jcromartie	so nth is actually faster in that case
08:35	Anderkent	#reliablebenchmarks
08:38	jcromartie	Anderkent: you mean that benchmark is not good?
08:38	jcromartie	or is good?
08:38	jcromartie	my sarcasm detector is not working
08:41	te	,`unquote
08:41	clojurebot	clojure.core/unquote
08:41	Anderkent	running something 10 times is not a good benchmark, no; at least not good enough to pick up on a 1msec difference :P
08:41	te	Someone talking about profiling?
08:43	te	Get an evaluation license for YourKit -- add this to your project.clj (assuming you're on OSX) :jvm-opts ["-agentpath:/Applications/YourKit_Java_Profiler_2013_build_13074.app/bin/mac/libyjpagent.jnilib"]
08:43	te	step 2: ...
08:43	te	step 3: profit.
08:44	Frozenlock	Assuming OSX is a thing now? The Apple invasion continues...
08:44	Anderkent	it's more of a 'hey I'll paste my path here fix it up if you're on linux/windows'
08:44	jcromartie	Anderkent: running it 1 million/100K times, 10 times...
08:44	te	beard*
08:44	Anderkent	also I'd guess like 40-70% people here are on macs
08:45	Anderkent	a neck bear would be a sight to behold
08:45	jcromartie	my job gives me a mac, I bought a thinkpad
08:45	xsyn	when life gives you lemons
08:45	te	they'
08:45	te	they're both fine.
08:46	te	the tightness of apple's hardware + software is tough to beat
08:46	perses	,(replace "please i prefer ruby", #"ruby" "clojure")
08:46	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (3) passed to: core/replace>
08:46	jcromartie	the $3K MacBook Pro has an amazing screen, and an amazing battery… but the $400 Craigslist thinkpad beats it in CPU performance
08:46	te	thinkpad, try as it might, still can't hold a candle to my battery life
08:46	jcromartie	nope
08:46	perses	,(clojure.string/replace "please i prefer ruby", #"ruby" "clojure")
08:46	clojurebot	"please i prefer clojure"
08:47	te	fun little thing to try: implement all of clojure.string using no java
08:47	te	(direct interop i mean)
08:47	Anderkent	(defmacro dot [& body] (. ~@body)) - not direct interop anymore?
08:47	te	boo
08:48	Anderkent	:P
08:48	te	./kickban Anderkent your macros are no good here
08:48	te	\o/
08:49	te	so, claypoole -- you guys ever use it?
08:49	te	or gals, or fish, etc.
08:50	perses	if i have ("Clojure" "is" "fun") how can i replace fun with another thing?
08:51	te	,(replace {"fun" "radical"} '("clojure" "is" "fun"))
08:51	clojurebot	("clojure" "is" "radical")
08:51	sohalt	hi, I just stumbled across reduce1 in merge-with and wondered how it differs from "normal" reduce, but couldn't find the source or documentation via (source reduce1) or (doc reduce1). Could anybody enlighten me on this one?
08:53	dnolen_	sohalt: it's private, just look at the source if you're curious
08:53	agarman	http://www.clodoc.org/doc/clojure.core/reduce1
08:53	te	sohalt: is this helpful? https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core/protocols.clj
08:53	sohalt	thanks. I wonder why my quick google search didn't turn that up for me.
08:54	te	agarman: because google juice for clojuredocs is still riding high
08:54	te	im going to build a really great core.async LOIC to DoS it if it stays up much longer
08:54	agarman	lol
08:54	perses	,(if nil "fasle" "true")
08:54	clojurebot	"true"
08:55	te	seriously, i don't know how you can have something as high in the rankings, as important as it turns out to be to newcomers as a result, and not ever bother to update it
08:55	te	hasn't there been some clojuredocs rewrite in the works for like 2 years now?
08:55	Anderkent	i think there was some drama involved
08:56	te	really?
08:56	te	i never saw anything about that.
08:56	Anderkent	don't really know, didn't follow it, just my impression from when i heard about it like a year ago
08:57	te	i take back what i was saying
08:57	te	looks like it saw a string of commits 3 months ago
08:57	te	clj-rewrite in progress apparently
08:57	te	happy to see that.
08:58	te	now, if people could just quit writing alternative documentation websites and find a way to share the same domain...
08:59	sohalt	Also while I'm at it: Why is the (when (some identity maps) … in merge-with required? Wouldn't a simple (when maps … do aswell?
08:59	gfredericks	my favorite documentation strategy is fingerhut's project
08:59	te	explaining to people: "nonono, you want to use clojure-DOC.org, not clojureDOCS.org.
08:59	te	such a bummer
08:59	gfredericks	I haven't seen anybody else care about it though
08:59	te	gfredericks: wait, what now?
09:00	gfredericks	te: it's a clojure project with alternative docs, and it adds them to the built-in vars at runtime so your repl docs are all customized
09:00	te	oh, yeah, i remember that -- have never used it personally
09:00	gfredericks	me neither; I just love the concept
09:01	te	I put http://getclojure.org out there -- would be nice to fix it up. there are a ton of cool examples in there, which, with some curation, could be used by andy's thingamajig
09:01	gfredericks	also it seems easier to generate a fancy website from docstrings than vice versa
09:01	te	<-devn
09:01	gfredericks	it could even be richer info than just docstrings
09:01	te	id like to add ratings to it, but i just haven't spent the time
09:01	gfredericks	e.g., separating brief refresher-style docs from full intros
09:02	te	gfredericks: yeah, i want to run clojure.tools.analyze across every single thing in getclojure.org
09:02	gfredericks	lists of related vars...
09:02	te	and capture a ton of meta
09:02	te	and yes, that. something like the clojure atlas ontology, mixed with examples
09:02	te	it would be a clear winner by default
09:04	gfredericks	andy said he has so far not gotten a single PR on that project
09:04	gfredericks	naturally I made a firm commitment to intend to work on it
09:05	te	andy has done so damn much for the community -- i know many people have, but sometimes i wish we had more of a community thing around recognizing people
09:05	te	throw them a balloon party or something
09:05	gfredericks	I did not realize until clojure/west that andy was not affiliated with cognitect
09:05	te	send them cookies. whatever it is. it'd be nice to show more appreciation all around for people
09:06	te	gfredericks: he's surely not the only one, if you look at the 1.6 contributors list
09:06	te	lots of people, lots of patches, lots of time, lots of effort
09:06	gfredericks	he's a lot more prominent than a lot of the people on that list though
09:06	te	but he's been doing it for a lot longer, and a lot harder than most
09:06	te	yeah, agreed
09:06	gfredericks	or at least one of the people on that list :)
09:07	te	gfredericks: want to throw $100 into a pot for an amazon gift card for andy?
09:07	te	ill match you
09:07	gfredericks	would gittip work for this?
09:07	te	not sure
09:08	te	heh, and then tbaldridge shows up and makes me feel guilty about just doing it for andy
09:08	sohalt	:D
09:08	te	we need to make a list and get a clojure tip going
09:08	te	once a month, someone gets recognized for their commitment
09:09	te	something like that
09:09	gfredericks	for some reason when tbaldridge "showed up" I imagined him swooping down from the rafters...? no idea what that thought was about
09:10	jcromartie	with a knife in his teeth
09:10	gfredericks	I guess "bird" is a sub-rearrangement of "baldridge"
09:10	te	i think it'd be nice to just highlight work people have been doing. there are a lot of people who aren't as public who have done a ton for the community for years
09:10	te	i want to get nakkaya to a US clojure conference, for example
09:11	te	we need to fund that guy. he has had a prolific clojure blog since 2009 i think
09:11	te	i think he's in turkey
09:13	gfredericks	gittip seems to only support regular donations? kind of weird...
09:19	te	shrug
09:20	te	what's the right way to set up a little fund for this kind of thing?
09:21	te	gfredericks: ^
09:22	gfredericks	te: no idea; that's what I was speculating about wrt gittip
09:22	te	im just going to set up a little site with stripe
09:22	te	and then people can trust me or not
09:22	Anderkent	fund as in how you could get money from other people, or how could you easily send the money?
09:22	drbobbeaty	gfredericks: You can do it in PayPal, if that doesn’t offend
09:23	Anderkent	isnt stripe us-only?
09:23	gfredericks	drbobbeaty: good point
09:24	Anderkent	i was thinking bitcoin, because paypal tends to dislike people sending donations
09:24	Anderkent	would suck to get your account locked :)
09:25	drbobbeaty	Anderkent: I think if you set it up with them as a Donation “destination”, then they get it. I’ve done this for charitable contributions for a Church Missions trip for my daughter. It’s really not all that hard, and they seem to be understanding of the nature of giving.
09:25	te	Anderkent: I was thinking anything except bitcoin, because bitcoin.
09:26	te	I feel like it has turned into a really long and elaborate troll.
09:26	drbobbeaty	te: but the motivation is pure, and honest.
09:27	te	there is a PR problem, not to mention there are a lot of people who were on the sidelines a couple years ago, and with all of the drama everyone is constantly hearing about it, they're still standing there watching
09:27	Anderkent	depends if you follow the drama or not; i feel like as long as you stay away from the obvious scams (exchanges, drug markets, blah blah), it's cool for everyday usage
09:27	te	so for donations it seems like a bad idea
09:28	te	because i bet less than 20% of the clojure community actually has bitcoins
09:28	gfredericks	I wouldn't know how to make use of bitcoin if somebody wanted to send me some
09:28	te	^-case in point
09:29	gfredericks	that doesn't mean it's difficult; I just haven't looked into it; I wouldn't be surprised if it was difficult though
09:29	te	dogecoin is frankly more useful to me because if i were paid with it, i wouldnt feel obligated to figure out a way to actually redeem it, because it's mostly worthless
09:29	te	it's like getting a gold star
09:30	Anderkent	te: well, that depends on the amounts, doesn't it? 100$ in dogecoin is the same as 100$ in bitcoin
09:30	te	i like gold stars more than i like obligations
09:30	te	Anderkent: yeah sure, probably a bad example: i'll put it like this: I'd rather be sent food stamps than bitcoin.
09:31	Anderkent	gfredericks: running the risk of going too deeply offtopic, you get a mobile wallet app, scan a bar code at the shop, and press 'accept charge'
09:31	Anderkent	assuming you find a shop that supports bitcoin that has something you want, of course :) I tend to spend in a couple pubs in london
09:33	gfredericks	gotta find some good London pubs around Chicago
09:34	jcromartie	te: if you can exchange dogecoin for something, then it has value no?
09:35	te	meh, i didn't mean to make this a referendum on crypto currency
09:36	te	i dropped in a couple years ago and bought some BTC at 2$, watched it climb, crash, climb, crash, climb, sold and made my money back
09:36	te	i found the whole thing to be a PITA
09:36	te	i just dont see it being useful for regular people
09:37	te	it's like PGP.
09:37	jcromartie	anybody here using Cursive regularly?
09:38	guest234245	te: Pelle B. is writing a clojure wrapper https://github.com/pelle/bitcljoin
09:38	jcromartie	guest234245: bringing it back on topic beautifully :)
09:39	guest234245	take that and make something useful ... for the regular folk
09:39	jcromartie	Clojure… regular folk… ?
09:39	gfredericks	making crypto useful for regular folk is apparently impossible?
09:39	guest234245	sometimes overlap
09:41	guest234245	if anyone knows other crypto / clojure projects, please share
09:42	guest234245	* crypto currency
09:42	te	gfredericks: i respect what keybase is trying to do
09:43	te	i know developers who don't know how to send a damned PGP email
09:43	jcromartie	I have a testing dilemma
09:44	te	jcromartie: do tell
09:44	jcromartie	I have a Clojure web app, but its whole job is to coordinate a bunch of external services.
09:44	jcromartie	Kayako, JIRA, Stash, Confluence, and more...
09:44	te	get your spinning animation ready :)
09:44	jcromartie	yeah really
09:45	te	what's your question?
09:45	te	also, i mentioned this earlier, but claypoole is really fantastic
09:45	te	it might not be a fit for you, but maybe it is...
09:45	jcromartie	well, so right now I have a bunch of integration tests written in Rspec that are totally black box
09:45	jcromartie	and run against real installations of these services
09:46	jcromartie	with a test setup script that goes out and prepares the whole testing environment
09:46	jcromartie	it's insane
09:46	jcromartie	it takes forever
09:46	te	yeesh
09:46	Anderkent	it does sound insane
09:46	jcromartie	and only one person can use it at a time
09:46	te	jcromartie: you want a stubbed service
09:46	te	record responses and test against those
09:47	te	keep your integration tests for the big "seriously, make sure it works before we deploy"
09:47	te	but stub the rest of those responses out
09:47	jcromartie	I guess I could stub the service responses before running the specs
09:48	te	then people can run it locally
09:49	jcromartie	I tried this https://github.com/fredericksgary/vcr-clj
09:49	jcromartie	but it blew up in my face
09:49	llasram	Oh geez. Will your insurance pay for the reconstructive surgery ?
09:49	jcromartie	but I think that was just the clj-http recording
09:49	jcromartie	if I mocked my API functions themselves… that should do it
09:50	Anderkent	jcromartie: what I did a while ago (but only mocking one web service) was mock my api wrapper for 90% of the code, then when testing the api wrapper mock clj-http
09:51	jcromartie	but one problem is the service state
09:51	jcromartie	like, testing the creation of things
09:51	Anderkent	i.e. (provided (clj-http/get "http://the-webservice/blah/foo") => {:status 500 :body "foobarzip"}))
09:51	Anderkent	well, yeah
09:51	jcromartie	testing that they don't exist before, then they are created, then it should exist
09:51	Anderkent	wiat, are you testing your wrapper
09:51	Anderkent	or the app that you're delegating to
09:52	jcromartie	testing the app that coordinates all of these services
09:52	Anderkent	right, so you want to test that it tells the other service to create something if it's told it doesn't exist, right? Not that it's actually created when told.
09:53	jcromartie	well part of the integration test is that the thing is actually created
09:54	gfredericks	jcromartie: let me know if there's a specific issue with vcr-clj
09:56	gfredericks	jcromartie: if the args/return are not serializable via pr/read I think that would cause it to not work
09:56	gfredericks	that fact should probably be better documented
09:59	jcromartie	gfredericks: so, for a given var and cassette, it doesn't handle the result of multiple calls to functions with side effects?
09:59	gfredericks	jcromartie: calling something multiple times should work
10:00	gfredericks	it will play back the return values in order
10:00	jcromartie	hm, ok
10:04	hlprmnky	nothing germane to add except “omg there’s a vcr-clj now hooray”
10:07	gfredericks	hlprmnky: I wrote it maybe two years ago
10:07	gfredericks	I'm just not a marketing person
10:08	jcromartie	hm, whatever version comes up with "lein try" doesn't seem to work when recording stateful vars
10:08	jcromartie	must be old or something
10:08	gfredericks	what's a stateful var?
10:08	gfredericks	I can't imagine an old version not supporting multiple calls to something
10:10	jcromartie	well, this didn't work: (with-cassette :foo [{:var #'foo}] (foo) (foo) (foo))
10:10	jcromartie	it didn't record any calls to (foo)
10:10	Morgawr	is there a function in clojure that groups vectors together? like (f [1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9]) -> [[1 4 7] [2 5 8] [3 6 9]] ?
10:10	jcromartie	but with 0.3.3 it works
10:10	gfredericks	jcromartie: this is the vcr-clj.core namespace?
10:10	gfredericks	Morgawr: vector would do that
10:11	clgv	Morgawr: (apply mapv vector ...)
10:11	clgv	,(apply mapv vector [1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9])
10:11	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long>
10:11	clgv	,(mapv vector [1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9])
10:11	clojurebot	[[1 4 7] [2 5 8] [3 6 9]]
10:11	jcromartie	gfredericks: yeah, vcr-clj.core/with-cassette
10:11	gfredericks	oh I didn't see the transposition
10:11	Morgawr	clgv: thanks!
10:12	Morgawr	also thanks gfredericks for replying anyway )
10:12	jcromartie	anyway I blame lein try :)
10:12	clgv	Morgawr: apply when you get a list instead of single vectors ^^
10:12	Morgawr	clgv: yeah, thanks
10:13	jcromartie	ah, I was using "lein try vcr-clj" and not "lein try com.gfredericks/vcr-clj"
10:13	gfredericks	yeah somebody else has a same-name project
10:14	gfredericks	and your example works for me on the alpha version (which only differs from 0.3.3 in the http namespace)
10:14	jcromartie	yeah
10:14	jcromartie	I think it's just someone pushed a really old version to clojars
10:14	jcromartie	open source problems :)
10:14	gfredericks	oh that might have been me by accident before namespacing the mvn artifact
10:15	gfredericks	damn leiningen's defaults
10:15	Anderkent	no, https://github.com/ifesdjeen/vcr-clj - looks like a different thing
10:15	Anderkent	and it defines the vcr-clj/vcr-clj artifact, which is what lein try vcr-clj would grab
10:15	Anderkent	(well, unless it was never deployed)
10:15	gfredericks	I'll crack open the vcr-clj/vcr-clj jar and see if it looks like my handwriting
10:16	Anderkent	gfredericks: https://clojars.org/vcr-clj it does
10:16	Anderkent	0.0.2
10:16	gfredericks	yeah that one is mine
10:17	gfredericks	just super old since I didn't keep deploying to that
10:17	gfredericks	if clojars had a way to mark things as bad I'd do that
10:17	Anderkent	hm, you don't like the default group name?
10:23	gfredericks	no
10:23	gfredericks	I just had a build break the other day because of people using default group names
10:24	jcromartie	but default group names are nice and sterile… when people use their own names then it adds an uncomfortable personal dynamic to the project dependencies
10:24	jcromartie	managers don't like that
10:24	Anderkent	gfredericks: can you elaborate on the build break?
10:24	jcromartie	"who the hell is this gfredericks guy? can I trust him?"
10:24	jcromartie	(I'm kidding)
10:25	jcromartie	(except not… we've had customers that were uncomfortable with open source attributions to individual authors)
10:27	Anderkent	i dunno I don't see how it makes any difference
10:28	gfredericks	Anderkent: I'll find the irc log
10:30	gfredericks	Anderkent: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2014-04-14.html#15:37
10:30	gfredericks	it ended with technomancy claiming there's no need for internal libraries
10:31	Anderkent	right, okay, for anything non-public (mostly my forks of someones public lib tho) i'd still use my group name
10:31	gfredericks	yep I would've too
10:33	clgv	$latest seesaw
10:33	lazybot	[seesaw "1.4.4"] -- https://clojars.org/seesaw
10:33	clgv	awesome
10:33	Anderkent	well, it seems you use it for everything now, which kinda implies you would. But I still think it's really not needed 90% of the time
10:34	gfredericks	I don't want builds breaking 10% of the time :P
10:37	Anderkent	eh, guess I'm not being clear. Builds don't break if you only use default group name for public artifacts (unless clojars breaks, in which case your build breaks anyway). I agree private artifacts should be in a private namespace, but 90% of the time making your artifact public is fine. The builds should never break
10:38	gfredericks	it's also kind of pretentious to pick a low-entropy generic name and assume your library will be the most prominent one by that name for decades to come
10:38	gfredericks	which leiningen encourages you to do before you've even written any code
10:39	Frozenlock	I've always wondered why...
10:39	Frozenlock	The clojars/lein tutorial clearly explain how to use a group name, but by default you have your nice, clean, short project name.
10:40	gfredericks	the alternative is to pick a default that won't work
10:40	gfredericks	more amusing perhaps would be a uuid group name
10:40	gfredericks	,(symbol (str "fixme-" (rand-int 100000000)) "my-project")
10:40	clojurebot	fixme-85755338/my-project
10:41	Anderkent	well, you're trading the first lib with that name having it easier, or every lib with that name having the crappy experience
10:42	Anderkent	i don't see how the future libs with the same name are any better if my libs has a group name, unless they just swipe the default group name
10:42	gfredericks	this also assumes clojars is the only OSS repo
10:44	Frozenlock	UUID all the namespaces!
10:44	Anderkent	isn't clojars the only repo where the group-name = artifact-name thing is common?
10:44	gfredericks	hard to evaluate the tendencies of not-yet-existing repos
10:44	jcromartie	I think it's a Clojure thing in general
10:45	jcromartie	Frozenlock: I like it
10:45	gfredericks	"It's okay as long as nobody else does it."
10:45	Anderkent	it's not a problem until it's a problem and then we'll blame the people who broke it
10:46	jcromartie	org.8CDFB3A4-EE85-41BA-AB44-178B7CEB95E7.604141BA-4519-4FF3-AED7-AA795F73A709/D8CCABC0-EAB5-4549-BF8A-69189E1525BA
10:46	Frozenlock	jcromartie: magnificent
10:46	gfredericks	I think I've already put more effort into complaining about this than it deserves; it only cost me an hour
10:47	gtrak	we should just use URIs for namespaces and forget projects.
10:48	gtrak	changing maven can't be that hard..
10:50	gtrak	or an rdf based build :-)
10:50	Anderkent	maybe we should just number projects
10:52	clgv	Anderkent: with characters like A, B, C, C++, D, ...? :P
10:52	Anderkent	I was thinking just a central service that would spit out an integer that will become your project name
10:52	gtrak	the problem is we have two namespaces, the classes and the maven one. We're a lisp-1.
10:53	clgv	single point of failure hooorray! :D
10:53	te	bahaha jcromartie
10:53	te	needs more sha512
10:53	clgv	Anderkent: you could just use the timestamp in milliseconds - how likely is it that someone else created a project in the same millisecond? ;)
10:58	technomancy	gfredericks: re: marking as bad on clojars: you can just deploy a new version with :description "don't use this" or something
10:59	technomancy	we can do manual deletions, but we try to save that only for cases where sensitive data has been deployed
11:01	technomancy	and for the record, I don't condone the use of everyday nouns like vcr as unqualified project names
11:02	AimHere	VCR is still an everyday noun? I thought that was some exotic rune that only old greybeards had heard of, like BetaMax and Geocities
11:04	jcromartie	yeah, there are programmers working today who have never handled a tape cassette
11:05	jcromartie	"why do Windows drive letters start with C:\"
11:05	gfredericks	technomancy: your approach is lesser known literary characters?
11:06	gfredericks	jcromartie: does that have something to do with tape cassettes?
11:06	Anderkent	org.clojars.jaceklach/'that one crow from norse mythology'
11:06	gfredericks	or did you just mean people forgot about A:\ and B:\?
11:07	jcromartie	gfredericks: what I'm trying to say is "kids these days!"
11:07	seangrove	jcromartie: Having used Windows XP for 5 minutes yesterday for something, I'd shorten that question down to "Why do windows?"
11:07	gtrak	ha, B:, when's the last time you used that one?
11:08	gtrak	there's a window of about 10 years where people knew what a: and c: meant but might not have known b:
11:08	Anderkent	gtrak: not that long ago, because you can now map abitrary drives to b: :)
11:08	gfredericks	I don't think I personally ever used a B:\ but when I was <8yo I remember my grandfather having one
11:08	gfredericks	I don't recall ever seeing it used though
11:09	gtrak	Anderkent: my gut recoils at the thought, but my mind knows I don't give a crap because I've been using linux for 14 years.
11:09	gtrak	and we have chroot
11:10	jcromartie	I used A: and B:
11:10	Anderkent	i had lots of 'fun' playing with the windows registry a couple years ago when I messed up a reinstall and it wasn't picking up the drives in the right order.
11:15	jcromartie	now raise your hand if you ever used an 8" floppy drive :)
11:16	Anderkent	I remember having an 8'' floppy drive but don't think I've personally used it
11:16	gfredericks	now you guys are trolling the kids by making things up
11:16	gfredericks	stop pretending computers were ever big. it's a silly fable.
11:16	hlship	My first experience with a disk drive was a large (12"?) removable hard disk platter for a Burroughs B800
11:17	hlship	Dad's accounting computer, circa 1978
11:17	hlship	I called it "HAL"
11:18	technomancy	http://p.hagelb.org/ibm-pc.png
11:19	locks	"After all, your son's still wearing that tie"
11:19	locks	is he though
11:22	Anderkent	you could go some pretty dark places with that quote
11:24	instilled	hey! is there a way in clojure jdbc to apply a fn to column names for updates and inserts, e.g to transform a key from 'some-col' to 'some_col' (as e.g. sqlkorma does it) or do I have to do the mapping before hand?
11:25	joegallo	http://clojure.github.io/clojure/clojure.set-api.html#clojure.set/rename-keys is a useful thing
11:25	joegallo	but that would be outside clojure.java.jdbc...
11:26	benmoss	that is a pretty hot fn
11:26	instilled	ok. that's perfectly fine… was just making sure i haven't overlooked something already available in clojure.jdbc...
11:26	instilled	thanks!
11:27	joegallo	actually, i think you can use the 'entities' functionality for that
11:27	joegallo	if you want something inside clojure.java.jdbc. but i'm not positive, this is just from 2 minutes poking about.
11:28	instilled	i was hoping to find any example in the source (or test source) but failed to see how to properly use it...
11:28	joegallo	see more here: http://clojure-doc.org/articles/ecosystem/java_jdbc/using_sql.html#clojure-identifiers-and-sql-entities
11:28	joegallo	(still not sure this is what you want, but it seems promising)
11:29	instilled	that's it. cheers. from the link above (j/query db-spec ["SELECT * FROM mixedTable"]
11:29	instilled	:identifiers #(.replace % \_ \-))
11:30	joegallo	yup, bingo
11:30	instilled	cheers a lot!
11:38	joegallo	instilled: you're entirely welcome
11:54	perses	how can i convert (((1 2) (3 4)) ((12 13) (0 1))), to ([1 2] [3 4] [12 13] [0 1]) ?
11:55	gtrak	apply concat map vec
11:55	perses	,(->> (((1 2) (3 4)) ((12 13) (0 1))) (concat map vec))
11:55	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
11:55	gtrak	,(apply concat (map vec '(((1 2) (3 4)) ((12 13) (0 1)))))
11:55	clojurebot	((1 2) (3 4) (12 13) (0 1))
11:55	perses	,(->> (((1 2) (3 4)) ((12 13) (0 1))) (concat map vec))
11:55	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
11:55	gtrak	err whoops, something like that :-)
11:56	coventry	vector, maybe
11:56	perses	,(->> (((1 2) (3 4)) ((12 13) (0 1))) (concat map vector))
11:56	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
11:56	perses	,(->> '(((1 2) (3 4)) ((12 13) (0 1))) (concat map vector))
11:56	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.core$map>
11:57	perses	,(apply concat (map vec '(((1 2) (3 4)) ((12 13) (0 1)))))
11:57	clojurebot	((1 2) (3 4) (12 13) (0 1))
11:57	perses	,(apply concat (map vector '(((1 2) (3 4)) ((12 13) (0 1)))))
11:57	clojurebot	(((1 2) (3 4)) ((12 13) (0 1)))
11:57	perses	,(apply concat (map vec '(((1 2) (3 4)) ((12 13) (0 1)))))
11:57	clojurebot	((1 2) (3 4) (12 13) (0 1))
11:57	gtrak	ah, map vec apply concat :-)
11:58	gtrak	,(map vec (apply concat '(((1 2) (3 4)) ((12 13) (0 1)))))
11:58	clojurebot	([1 2] [3 4] [12 13] [0 1])
11:58	gtrak	I was thinking in thread-macros
12:00	llasram	I prefer: ##(mapcat (partial map vec) '(((1 2) (3 4)) ((12 13) (0 1))))
12:00	lazybot	⇒ ([1 2] [3 4] [12 13] [0 1])
12:00	llasram	Which I think came up yesterday? But maybe perses didn't like that answer
12:00	gtrak	(partial map .. ) always feels funny
12:00	justin_smith	#(map vec %)
12:01	llasram	gtrak: Then you aren't doing it enough :-)
12:01	gtrak	justin_smith: but that creates a new class!
12:01	justin_smith	At compile time. And it runs faster than partial.
12:01	gtrak	that's just the args-unpacking
12:02	gtrak	slippery slope to bloatware!
12:08	gtrak	llasram: just seems to me there ought to be a better way. weird wart, was looking at a nested versions of that yesterday with update-in.
12:09	llasram	gtrak: If you find the better way, please do let me know :-)
12:10	justin_smith	https://www.refheap.com/76754 <- surprising benchmark
12:10	justin_smith	gtrak's version is much faster
12:10	gtrak	I'd expect it to be
12:10	justin_smith	well, OK, surprising to me
12:10	gtrak	well, mine's totally lazy
12:11	gtrak	hmm.. so is the mapcat one thoguh
12:11	justin_smith	I think it's the nested map elimination that does it
12:11	justin_smith	but that is still a very big difference
12:11	llasram	justin_smith: Now try it with reducers :-)
12:12	justin_smith	llasram: I have not used them, can you give me a reducers version?
12:12	llasram	Hmm, does criterium force evaluation of lazy results?
12:13	gtrak	wrap em in a doall
12:13	llasram	I think the way mapcat works will force evaluation of one step
12:13	justin_smith	llasram: yeah, definitely does
12:13	llasram	kk
12:14	llasram	justin_smith: (require '[clojure.core.reducers :as r]) then use r/map and r/mapcat. And I think can use r/foldcat instead of concat
12:14	justin_smith	llasram: wait - it may not force it, I will double check
12:14	justin_smith	llasram: cool, thanks
12:15	llasram	(actually `r/foldcat` <-> `apply contact`)
12:16	llasram	OR maybe not
12:16	llasram	BLOOP
12:16	llasram	So ignore the foldcat -- I never use it because `cat` requires input to be Counted for some reason
12:16	llasram	Oh, and need to force realization by (into [] ...) or such the result
12:17	llasram	So actually, lots of differences
12:17	justin_smith	llasram: oh, all the reducers stuff needs forced?
12:17	llasram	Yes. It otherwise just lazily accumulates a reducer chain
12:17	justin_smith	criterium is good, but it is the only thing that makes me feel like my cpu is way too weak
12:20	jebberjeb	,(+ 1 2)
12:20	clojurebot	3
12:20	jebberjeb	,('foo 'bar 'baz)
12:20	clojurebot	baz
12:20	jebberjeb	wt!
12:20	justin_smith	,(get 'bar 'foo) ; jebberjeb
12:20	clojurebot	nil
12:20	justin_smith	,(get 'bar 'foo 'baz) ; jebberjeb
12:20	clojurebot	baz
12:21	justin_smith	a symbol in called position acts as get on its first arg
12:21	justin_smith	with second arg being the last arg to get, the default result
12:22	jebberjeb	justin_smith: many thanks
12:22	justin_smith	,(doc get)
12:22	clojurebot	"([map key] [map key not-found]); Returns the value mapped to key, not-found or nil if key not present."
12:22	justin_smith	,('foo '{foo 0 bar 1}) ; intended actual usage
12:22	clojurebot	0
12:48	guest234245	yogthos: trying to use cljs-ajax and when I issue a POST its showing up on the other side as an OPTIONS request.
12:48	guest234245	not sure what I'm missing..
12:49	blake__	Why does "iterate inc 5" give "5 6 7..." but "iterate + 5" give "5 5 5..."?
12:50	jcromartie	blake__: because (+ 5) returns 5
12:50	joegallo	(inc (inc (inc 5) --> 8
12:50	joegallo	(+ (+ (+ 5))) -> 5...
12:51	blake__	jcromartie, joegallo: Thanks.
12:52	technomancy	clojurebot: dsls \|are\| intimidating and frightening https://secure.flickr.com/photos/technomancy/1884002248
12:52	clojurebot	Ok.
12:54	sdegutis	Has anyone experienced any issues using Clojure in dwm?
12:54	llasram	The X window manager?
12:54	sdegutis	Yeah.
12:55	llasram	Ok. What sorts of issues? (I mean, I'm not -- just having a hard time thinking of what sorts of issues could occur)
12:55	sdegutis	Never mind I forgot to try rebooting.
12:56	sdegutis	Sorry, I should have tried that first.
13:01	blake__	technomancy: "DSLs solve all the things!" -- Ruby
13:02	bbloom	blake__: more like OOP-EDSL all the things!
13:05	blake__	bbloom: 'deed.
13:08	sdegutis	Oh wait a minute, how is that upside-down now?
13:16	justin_smith	gtrak: llasram: https://www.refheap.com/76761 updated benchmarks, I was wrong, criterium was not forcing the laziness
13:16	justin_smith	that explains the surprising performance difference
13:18	llasram	justin_smith: That's good to know
13:39	michaniskin	which libraries are good for making SOAP clients in clojure?
13:39	Anderkent	well, there's clj-soap
13:39	Anderkent	i don't know of any other one
13:40	mdrogalis	necessary-evil
13:41	mdrogalis	michaniskin: https://github.com/brehaut/necessary-evil
13:41	locks	love the name already
13:41	Anderkent	isn't that xml-rpc rather than soap?
13:41	michaniskin	haha the name is looking good
13:42	justin_smith	(inc brehaut) ; for that awesome name
13:42	lazybot	⇒ 23
13:44	michaniskin	i think of SOAP and XML-RPC as "especially heinous", like in law and order svu
13:45	michaniskin	ok thanks!
13:53	seangrove	Structural sharing in edn? That sound like a thing?
13:54	bbloom	seangrove: not in a textual representation...
13:54	seangrove	Because large persistent data structures with a lot of shared structures (app state history) is nice nice in memory, but then serializing to send around is not nice
13:55	seangrove	bbloom: I want to polish my history player to store the app state at every transition, but that's going to make sending reports to the server prohibitively large
13:55	justin_smith	seangrove: also it is bad for multithreading
13:56	bbloom	seangrove: maybe fressian covers this?
13:56	michaniskin	seangrove: gzip
13:56	seangrove	This is in the browser, I should have mentioned
13:57	bbloom	michaniskin: gzip is too late in the pipeline
13:57	bbloom	michaniskin: you might have to generate and zip tons of stuff, only to get a tiny result at the end
13:57	michaniskin	bbloom: it's the pragmatic approach, not the fancy approach
13:58	bbloom	michaniskin: i mean, he can try it, but it's likely that he has too much sharing such that it will hang his UI at the frequency he wants to run it
13:58	michaniskin	i'd invent a new way to serialize only if standard compression doesn't work
14:00	bbloom	amusingly, XML has this feature, not that anybody ever uses it
14:02	seangrove	bbloom: I believe coventry said python's pickle format can do something similar
14:06	bbloom	seangrove: yeah, most object serialization libraries have no choice but to support object identity
14:12	seangrove	bbloom: For eclj, effects are programmable from the top-level, but are the automatically identifiable/taggable/queryable from the language itself?
14:12	seangrove	For example, I'd like to slim my time-travelling debugger down, and just have it set a dynamic variable to mock any side-effects and play the message
14:13	bbloom	seangrove: i'm working on the design of that right now. example: https://github.com/brandonbloom/eclj/blob/master/src/eclj/interpret/meta.eclj#L145-L166
14:13	seangrove	Are you expecting to add some meta-data to a var/function/something so I can ask if it's side-effecting?
14:13	bbloom	seangrove: no. that's a static effect system, like "throws" in java
14:14	bbloom	it would be hypothetically possible to abstract-interpret some code & see an approximation of what effects it may have
14:14	bbloom	but i'm pretty far from that
14:14	bbloom	likely to do type-checking via abstract-interpretation first
14:16	seangrove	Ok, I'm just realizing that the separation of state-transition and side-effecting as a pattern is really useful for us, specifically for things like deterministic reconstruction, but it's something that would fit better at the language level
14:16	bbloom	seangrove: you can approximate a real programmable effect system using OOP techniques
14:16	seangrove	Something like Eff/Elm/etc. representing effects as values
14:16	bbloom	seangrove: Om already does this
14:17	bbloom	basically protocols + dynamic vars == crappy effect system
14:17	bbloom	in the case of your app, you have that cast! effect, you can simply implement that as an operation on some dynamic var
14:18	seangrove	Intersting point
14:18	bbloom	(defn cast! [msg] (-cast! eff msg))
14:19	seangrove	I'll meditate on that
14:19	bbloom	seangrove: also ask dnolen_ how he intercepts state w/ the om protocols
14:20	seangrove	I definitely think time-travelling debuggers are a possibility in cljs now. Probably not even a ton of work, just more than it ideally would be
14:21	bbloom	seangrove: yeah, Elm has a JS monad essentially
14:21	bbloom	which is somewhat akin to my "env" in eclj
14:21	bbloom	being able to intercept all side effects is a fundamental feature of a next gen language -- hence my quest to add them to clj :-)
14:21	seangrove	bbloom: Makes me all kinds of excited :)
14:22	dnolen_	seangrove: doing a time traveling debugger specifically for Om would be pretty simple
14:22	amalloy	seangrove: the common-lisp printer does support structural sharing in printed representations, with stuff like (xs #1=(1 2 3 . #1#)), as the printed representation of (cons 'xs (cycle '(1 2 3)))
14:22	amalloy	er, i guess (list 'xs (cycle '(1 2 3)))
14:22	bbloom	amalloy: yeah but edn doens't have such a facility :-(
14:23	amalloy	bbloom: yeah, i'm not saying you can do it in edn. but you said "not in a textual representation", which could have been misinterpreted
14:23	bbloom	amalloy: ah, you're right, sorry
14:23	bbloom	amalloy: what CL does is basically read-time letrec :-P
14:24	amalloy	that's an interesting way of putting it. i guess you're right
14:31	TravisD	Does light table have a standard REPL in addition to the instarepl?
14:32	TravisD	Also, are there any plugins for light table that emulate emacs key bindings?
14:32	amalloy	i think if you want light table to use a standard repl and emacs keybindings, you maybe just want to run emacs instead?
14:33	blake__	Sanity check, please: I'm trying to understand lazy-seq, but I came across a situation where my REPL gave me an error for one piece of code, then worked later for the same piece of code. The output is here:
14:33	blake__	https://www.refheap.com/76767
14:34	TravisD	amalloy: Hehe, that's a fair point. I've got a strange obsession with new editors. Always looking for something that I might like more than emacs
14:34	TravisD	amalloy: it's a great way to waste time
14:34	seangrove	TravisD: I'm sure it has both, yes
14:34	Anderkent	blake__: well you get an error when you call it on ii rather than (ii 1) ?
14:34	seangrove	TravisD: ctrl+space repl
14:35	blake__	Anderkent: Thank you! I was =not= seeing that!
14:35	seangrove	And our very own ibdknox has seen fit to provide https://github.com/LightTable/Emacs
14:35	Jaood	amalloy: wouldn't customizing lighttable live via clojure a la emacs a good reason?
14:35	Jaood	:)
14:35	xsyn	what's the difference between ~ and ~@
14:35	justin_smith	,`(~@[1 2 3])
14:35	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
14:36	justin_smith	,`(~[1 2 3])
14:36	clojurebot	([1 2 3])
14:36	justin_smith	that's the difference
14:36	xsyn	thank you very much
14:36	justin_smith	np
14:36	TravisD	seangrove: Cool, thanks :) When I do ctrl + space repl, I only see instarepl
14:37	seangrove	Hrm...
14:37	seangrove	One of my siblings uses emacs before they switch to emacs, that's the limit of my exposure so far
14:38	justin_smith	is your sibling in a time paradox?
14:38	TravisD	heh
14:39	Jaood	surely he meant LT somewhere there
14:39	seangrove	Erm, LT before using emacs
14:39	Jaood	:)
14:39	amalloy	(inc justin_smith)
14:39	lazybot	⇒ 34
14:39	seangrove	TravisD: I think it's supposed to be the 'console', but it doesn't show up for me
14:40	seangrove	it is a mystery
14:41	seangrove	wow, this instarepl is definitely very cool though.
14:41	technomancy	http://p.hagelb.org/mystery.gif you mean?
14:42	seangrove	And thus, I have a gif-bot with no programming.
14:42	hyPiRion	~mystery
14:42	clojurebot	mystery is http://p.hagelb.org/mystery.gif
14:42	seangrove	Ah, damn
14:42	seangrove	Thought I was clever
14:42	TravisD	I don't understand the meaning of the gif
14:42	technomancy	=P
14:42	Anderkent	TravisD: are you saying it's a mystery?
14:42	seangrove	(inc Anderkent)
14:42	lazybot	⇒ 11
14:43	TravisD	Anderkent: Haha :)
14:57	maxthoursie	I want autotest for clojure.test
14:57	maxthoursie	is there something like that?
14:57	maxthoursie	that is something that runs my test when code is changed
14:58	rlinehan	maxthoursie: I've been using lein test-refresh. it's worked pretty well so far. https://github.com/jakemcc/lein-test-refresh
15:00	gtrak	Raynes: I'd like to search lazybot log dumps, technically hard? Maybe lucene's too big, I'd be fine building something for myself that polls for new logs and dl's/indexes those.
15:01	maxthoursie	rlinehan: that was exactely what I was looking for, thanks!
15:02	gtrak	google was pretty ineffective at helping me find something earlier
15:02	gtrak	maybe that could be made better, not sure.
15:02	justin_smith	gtrak: http://i.imgur.com/D2Hh0sn.png
15:02	gtrak	haha
15:11	Rosnec	is there a way to display the current recursion point?
15:12	Rosnec	I'm trying to recur, and it's telling me it's expecting 0 args when really there should be 1
15:12	Rosnec	the only thing I can think of is that lazy-seq is creating a recursion point
15:13	seangrove	bbloom: https://www.youtube.com/user/PapersWeLove
15:13	seangrove	Are they holding the video hostage?
15:13	Rosnec	basically, the chain of functions is like (fn [x] (let ... (if-not ... (cons ... (lazy-seq (recur y))))))
15:13	maxthoursie	is there a literal for ints?
15:13	bbloom	seangrove: you'd have to ask zeeshanlakhani
15:14	bbloom	Rosnec: lazy-seq does create a recur point
15:14	bbloom	Rosnec: b/c the body of the lazy seq is a delayed function
15:14	seangrove	zeeshanlakhani: I'll send you some Korean snacks if you get it posted by this weekend
15:14	Rosnec	bloom: aha
15:15	Rosnec	if I use lazy-seq, is there really any need to use recur, then?
15:15	Rosnec	it won't consume the stack, right?
15:15	bbloom	Rosnec: you don't need recur here though, b/c by the time your deferred function runs, it will be on another stack
15:15	bbloom	Rosnec: you got it
15:15	Rosnec	ok, got it
15:15	bbloom	Rosnec: just call the fn by name
15:15	Rosnec	yup
15:15	Rosnec	I was doing that before
15:15	Rosnec	when I thought "why don't I use recur instead?"
15:15	Rosnec	that's why
15:21	gfredericks	using recur with lazy-seq will not even work I don't think
15:21	gfredericks	at best it'll do something totally unexpected
15:25	bbloom	Bronsa: when is metadata evaluated normally on forms?
15:26	gfredericks	,(meta #'int)
15:26	clojurebot	{:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name int, :file "clojure/core.clj", :column 1, :line 841, ...}
15:26	gfredericks	,(-> #'int meta :tag)
15:26	clojurebot	nil
15:26	gfredericks	,(-> #'str meta :tag)
15:26	clojurebot	java.lang.String
15:26	gfredericks	,(-> #'str meta :tag type)
15:26	clojurebot	java.lang.Class
15:27	gfredericks	sometimes apparently :)
15:27	bbloom	,^{:x (prn 1)} [(prn 2)]
15:27	clojurebot	2\n1\n[nil]
15:27	bbloom	,(meta ^{:x (pr 1)} [(pr 2)])
15:27	clojurebot	21{:x nil}
15:28	bbloom	i'm pretty sure that evaluation order isn't intentional
15:28	bbloom	shouldn't matter in most cases, but that seems totally backwards to me
15:28	bbloom	it's b/c it compiles to a with-meta call
15:28	bbloom	(doc with-meta)
15:28	clojurebot	"([obj m]); Returns an object of the same type and value as obj, with map m as its metadata."
15:28	bbloom	note the arg order
15:30	gfredericks	does that apply to not-data-structures too?
15:30	gfredericks	,^{:x (pr 1)} (pr 2)
15:30	bbloom	,(binding [print-meta true] (prn '^{:x (pr 1)} [(pr 2)]))
15:30	clojurebot	2
15:30	clojurebot	^{:x (pr 1)} [(pr 2)]\n
15:31	gfredericks	^ didn't eval the meta at all
15:31	bbloom	yeah, that's what i expected
15:31	bbloom	hence why i asked Bronsa to know if he knew some other weird edge cases
15:31	bbloom	at this point, he's the expert on weird evaluator edge cases
15:32	Rosnec	before I go and write this myself, is there a function like partition that can guarantee that the last partition has size < n? So if the size = n, it appends () to the seq?
15:32	bbloom	Rosnec: maybe you mean partition-all ?
15:32	Rosnec	doesn't that make sure the last partition has size n?
15:32	derek_c	can you define a var in a let form?
15:32	Bronsa	bbloom: sorry Icc was afk
15:32	derek_c	I mean, you can define an atom like (let [a (atom 3)])
15:32	derek_c	how about var?
15:33	Bronsa	bbloom: it's evaluated before the expression when applied to non-quoted data literals
15:33	bbloom	Bronsa: really? example?
15:33	Rosnec	oh, wait a minute, partition cuts off the extra terms?
15:33	Bronsa	bbloom: sorry, I meant after
15:33	Rosnec	I've been using the wrong function this whole time!!
15:34	bbloom	Bronsa: haha ok yeah, makes more sense
15:34	Rosnec	I had the two confused
15:34	Bronsa	bbloom: not evalauted when the literal is not evaluated (quoted, arg to a macro)
15:34	Rosnec	but now I need something that's sort of the opposite of partition
15:34	Rosnec	partition-all keeps everything
15:34	bbloom	Bronsa: ok, i think that's what i understood from the experimenting above :-) thanks
15:34	Rosnec	partition cuts off the last seq if it's smaller than n
15:34	Bronsa	bbloom: the only gotcha I can think of is that read-time metadata on lists is not evaluated
15:35	Bronsa	,^{:foo (println "foo")} (identity 1)
15:35	clojurebot	1
15:35	bbloom	whoa.
15:35	Rosnec	I need something that adds an extra empty seq if the last seq is exactly of size n
15:35	bbloom	ok this is why i ask you these things lol
15:35	bbloom	Bronsa: any idea why that is?
15:35	Bronsa	bbloom: no idea if that's a bug or if that's intended
15:35	bbloom	,^{:foo (println "foo")} 1
15:35	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Metadata can only be applied to IMetas>
15:35	bbloom	,^{:foo (println "foo")} (reify)
15:35	clojurebot	foo\n#<sandbox$eval285$reify__286 sandbox$eval285$reify__286@7108a1>
15:36	bbloom	Bronsa: i had punted on metadata in eclj's parser, but now i need it :-P
15:37	Bronsa	yeah, it's quite useful
15:37	bbloom	Bronsa: well i had it on vars, so it got me pretty far
15:40	dnolen_	Bronsa: so it easy to detect the presence of recur w/ tools.analyzer?
15:40	dnolen_	Bronsa: I did a horrible thing in core.match where I just flatten the search and search for a symbol because tools.analyzer didn't exist 3 (4?) years ago
15:40	dnolen_	"flatten the tree of forms"
15:41	dnolen_	would like to replace and fix with something more sane
15:41	Bronsa	dnolen_: quite easy, see https://github.com/clojure/tools.analyzer.jvm/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/tools/analyzer/passes/jvm/annotate_loops.clj
15:45	gfredericks	dnolen_: Bronsa: do you guys think it's reasonable for advanced macros to depend on the analyzer? i.e., in the future will we have hundreds of calls to the analyzer via a handful of different libs when compiling our code?
15:46	gfredericks	(I don't know of a serious downside to this, just wanted to make sure it was okay to use it this way)
15:49	dnolen_	Bronsa: huh so -check-recur will do it
15:50	dnolen_	gfredericks: given how ad-hoc more advanced macros become I welcome our new tools.analyzer overlords
15:50	Bronsa	gfredericks: I believe cljs already does this, and when/if core.async moves to tools.analyzer that will be another one that does it. I think it's unlikely that it will be a wide-spread practice but definitely useful for the more powerful ones
15:51	Bronsa	BTW, check this
15:51	gfredericks	I was discussing a test.check macro with reiddraper that could be smarter w/ analyzer
15:51	Bronsa	,(defmacro x [] (println "foo"))
15:51	clojurebot	#'sandbox/x
15:51	Bronsa	, (fn [] (loop [y 1] (x) (recur (Integer. 1))))
15:51	clojurebot	foo\nfoo\n#<sandbox$eval52$fn__53 sandbox$eval52$fn__53@15268b>
15:51	Bronsa	:/
15:51	gfredericks	It's time for another episode of "WTF Clojure with Bronsa"
15:52	bbloom	Bronsa: looking at compiler.java, it seems like the definite list is: map set vector fn reify ()
15:52	Bronsa	loop invalidation in Compiler.java potentially makes the code macroexpand more than once
15:53	bbloom	Bronsa: it's funny how rewriting clojure in clojure makes clojure's flaws so much more apparent
15:53	Bronsa	bbloom: oh yeah, forgot about ()
15:53	bbloom	smaller code == less place for bugs to hide
15:53	llasram	wow
15:54	Bronsa	bbloom: it's mostly really-edge-cases, it's not always that you find macros side-effecting at macroexpansion time
15:54	justin_smith	bbloom: how is your project related to CinC btw? https://github.com/cosmin/clojure-in-clojure
15:54	bbloom	Bronsa: the order of meta/value evaluation is totally edge-casey, but as i discovered evaluated vs not evaluated is a big difference ;-)
15:55	bbloom	Bronsa: some code in core builds quote forms and evals them, like arglists :-/
15:55	bbloom	justin_smith: it's totally unrelated
15:55	Bronsa	bbloom: arglists isn't really evaluated
15:55	Bronsa	the compiler just takes the second element
15:55	bbloom	Bronsa: but the metadata on def is, which means arglists gets evaluated as an item in a map
15:55	gvickers	Hey when defining mutlimethods, dispatch is decided based on the function on defmethod returning true correct?
15:56	Bronsa	bbloom: welllll
15:56	bbloom	Bronsa: if you don't eval metadata on def, then you get an arg list of the form '(quote ...)
15:56	bbloom	from defn
15:56	bbloom	justin_smith: Bronsa (et al?) are doing the "official"-ish clojure-in-clojure
15:56	Bronsa	bbloom: the compiler takes the arglists info before evaluating any of the metadata IIRC
15:56	bbloom	justin_smith: he's trying to make a production caliber clojure impl. i'm doing experimentation w/ something much crazier
15:56	bbloom	Bronsa: not what i discovered :-P
15:57	Bronsa	let me check
15:57	justin_smith	bbloom: cool
15:57	bbloom	Bronsa: https://github.com/brandonbloom/eclj/blob/master/src/eclj/interpret/meta.eclj#L213-L225
15:57	bbloom	justin_smith: my work wouldn't be possible w/ Bronsa's either
15:58	bbloom	Bronsa: thanks for all your help, direct and indirect, btw :-)
15:58	Bronsa	bbloom: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Compiler.java#L519
15:58	gtrak	the arglists created by the cljs analyzer also contain a spurious quote.
15:59	Bronsa	bbloom: so when the Var is interned, the Var has the unevaluated metadata + arglists with the 'quote removed
15:59	Bronsa	bbloom: when the Def gets evaluated, all the meta with the original arglists is evaluated
16:00	bbloom	Bronsa: sigh really?
16:00	bbloom	that's just plain insane.
16:00	Bronsa	bbloom: you have no idea how much pain that caused me.
16:00	bbloom	Bronsa: where was the pain?
16:00	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
16:01	derek_c	did 1.6 intro any breaking changes?
16:01	derek_c	introduce
16:03	Bronsa	bbloom: weird things happen when you try to analzye ztellman libs and metadata evaluation varies slightly from how Compiler.java does.
16:03	bbloom	Bronsa: lol
16:03	bbloom	Bronsa: ok, well, i'm going to write this down... and then forget about it
16:03	ztellman	Bronsa: example?
16:03	bbloom	b/c ztellman's libs are totally not target eclj code :-P
16:04	ztellman	it's not an intentional divergence, I'd guess
16:04	bbloom	i may update the goals in the eclj readme to say "makes ztellman's crazy projects obsolete, such that he must write newer even crazier things"
16:04	Bronsa	ztellman: https://github.com/ztellman/potemkin/pull/20 :P I
16:04	ztellman	aha
16:05	ztellman	ok, merged
16:05	Bronsa	well that was fast
16:05	ztellman	well, I had meant to merge it days ago
16:05	ztellman	I thought I already did
16:05	ztellman	I need a daily email from Github of outstanding issues on my projects
16:05	bbloom	ztellman: i implemented the "alias" thing
16:06	ztellman	bbloom: cool, link?
16:06	bbloom	works a treat: https://github.com/brandonbloom/eclj/blob/master/src/eclj/env.clj#L35 and https://github.com/brandonbloom/eclj/blob/master/src/eclj/ns.clj#L10
16:06	ztellman	ha, that works
16:07	bbloom	ztellman: w00t first class environments!
16:07	ztellman	can I do fexprs in eclj?
16:07	bbloom	ztellman: there's no fexpr API, but there will be eventually
16:07	ztellman	ok, yeah, there will be some crazier things, then
16:08	martinklepsch	justin_smith, amalloy, thanks to your advice a few days ago I was able to parse this huge xml file w/o saving it in seperate files first — thanks a lot!
16:08	justin_smith	martinklepsch: awesome, glad it worked
16:08	justin_smith	what was the dtd fix?
16:08	bbloom	ztellman: i have a working metacircular interpreter modulo a few bugs. it's pretty slow, but partial evaluation & lifting the interpreter in to a compiler is planned :-)
16:09	bbloom	ztellman: i look forward to what you wind up doing with "jit macros"
16:09	gtrak	bbloom: is eclj the thing that's going to make core.async introspection happen?
16:09	martinklepsch	justin_smith, the best workaround is actually to just change the path to the dtd before parsing, which will also change paths for other deps like mathml
16:09	ztellman	bbloom: ha, I'm more interested in having embeddable Clojure with first-class everything than performance
16:10	bbloom	ztellman: yeah, performance is a side effect of wanting to be able to write an embeddable clojure-in-clojure run on other platforms besides the jvm
16:10	bbloom	ztellman: gotta write a compiler to get it to run elsewhere
16:11	bbloom	gtrak: there would likely be like an eclj.async b/c eclj is capable of dynamic transforms, not just lexical ones
16:11	bbloom	gtrak: so you'll (eventually) be able to do higher order operations within go blocks, for example
16:11	gtrak	ahhh
16:12	bbloom	gtrak: but that's a long way off
16:12	ztellman	the scope of the core.async transforms is pretty non-intuitive
16:12	ztellman	it closed over a mutable deftype field and just held onto the value when the goroutine started, rather than throwing an error
16:12	ztellman	took me ages to debug it
16:13	bbloom	ztellman: you should see some of the insanity i've encoutnered working on eclj
16:13	bbloom	ztellman: you think clojure's stack traces suck?
16:13	ztellman	haha
16:13	bbloom	although being able to fipp.edn/pprint an env is pretty sweet
16:13	ztellman	yeah, I don't claim it's the craziest, just that the goroutine's boundaries unceremoniously at a function, and de-mutabilizing deftype fields, etc.
16:14	ztellman	I was surprised how hard it was to reason about
16:15	bbloom	ztellman: the de-mutabilizing is probably a metadata bug
16:15	ztellman	bbloom: oh, definitely
16:15	ztellman	anyway, now I have a working compatibility shim, so I don't have to worry about core.async anymore: https://github.com/ztellman/manifold/blob/master/src/manifold/stream/async.clj
16:16	bbloom	ztellman: surely tbaldridge will have that fixed in a jiffy ;-)
16:16	gfredericks	there's not even a wikipedia article on f-expressions, how can they possibly exist?
16:16	bbloom	gtrak: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fexpr
16:16	gfredericks	gtrak: false alarm
16:16	bbloom	gfredericks: gtrak: yeah whoops sorry
16:17	bbloom	tab completion failure
16:17	llasram	clojurebot: gtrak is a false alarm
16:17	clojurebot	Alles klar
16:17	gtrak	that's ok, I like reading these things :-)
16:17	ztellman	"Fexpr" sounds like some minor Norse deity
16:17	bbloom	ztellman: assuming your familiar with fexprs, are you also familiar with racket's "syntax objects"?
16:17	gtrak	Fexpr is a great band name.
16:17	ztellman	bbloom: only minimally familiar with fexprs, not at all with syntax objects
16:18	blake__	Fexpr and Conj stole Mjolnir!
16:18	bbloom	ztellman: in short, a syntax object is just a shallow AST node: it bundles a form with an env
16:18	justin_smith	blake__: lol
16:18	Vfe	Anyone ever use .setInterval js interlop with cljs and had it work? I’m trying the most simple example I can (ns example.main) (.setInterval js/window (js/alert “hi” 1000)) and it never alerts more than once. Pure JS works as expected.
16:18	bbloom	ztellman: in eclj, i don't do recursive analysis, i just do a shallow "parse" and map->Syntax on that...
16:19	ztellman	bbloom: presumably someone else can do recursive analysis, right?
16:19	martinklepsch	justin_smith, now it all takes 20sec instead of 5minutes, success!
16:19	bbloom	ztellman: the evaluator does the recursion
16:19	justin_smith	martinklepsch: nice
16:19	ztellman	bbloom: and that's pluggable?
16:19	bbloom	which means that you don't need feature expressions or any of that nonsense, if you don't go down a code path that uses some undefined value, it won't be an error...
16:19	bbloom	it will be
16:20	bbloom	ztellman: right now, it's a multimethod
16:20	ztellman	gotcha
16:20	bbloom	but it will let you intercept it
16:20	alew	an fexpr is like a macro except the return is also not evaled?
16:20	ztellman	intercept based on AST node type, environment, or both?
16:20	bbloom	alew: it's a first-class runtime macro that doesn't not explicitly evaluate, yes
16:21	bbloom	ztellman: plan is that eval will be an open predicate dispatch function
16:22	bbloom	anyway, the biggest issue w/ fexpr's a la Kernel is operand capture: if you had (defn call [f x] (f x)) and you pass that (call quote 1) you get out x, not 1
16:22	bbloom	however, my plan is to parse children to syntax before running the fexpr, so you'd get (quote #Syntax{:form x :env {x 1 ...}})
16:23	bbloom	meaning that operand capture could only happen if you explicitly extract the :form from the fexpr arg
16:23	bbloom	otherwise, it works the same
16:24	pbostrom	Vfe: shouldn't that be (.setInterval js/window #(js/alert “hi”) 1000)
16:26	Vfe	pbostrom: Thanks, that works. Never seen that in any of the web examples though O.o
16:27	justin_smith	Vfe: in your version, the return value of js/alert is the thing you are passing as the function to call
16:28	justin_smith	(as opposed to a function that will call js/alert)
16:29	Vfe	I gotcha, that makes sense.
16:31	edw	This is a very un-value-oriented programming question, but is there a simple way to serialize a Clojure map, maintaining the identity of shared structure?
16:31	edw	And deserialize it, of course...
16:34	gfredericks	the wat
16:34	justin_smith	edw: so a map with mutable things in it?
16:36	justin_smith	edw: I guess you could hack something together with an ObjectOutputStream
16:37	gfredericks	edw: are you talking about serializing references to jvm objects? and then dereferencing them back to the original jvm objects after deserialization? or just about maintaining the redundancy in an object graph?
16:37	TimMc	edw: I believe Java serialization will maintain the object graph.
16:38	gtrak	wonder how many folks have tried to java-serialize edn.
16:38	justin_smith	I am sure it is possible, but it seems kind of pointless
16:39	gtrak	well, the cljs compiler analyzer data is way too big for print-dup, but fits in memory just fine due to structural-sharing.
16:40	justin_smith	ahh, a point!
16:40	justin_smith	www.pointerpointer.com
16:43	edw	TimMc: Ah, thanks for the tip. I just did some testing, and while duplicating equivalent objects will grow my memory use on deserialization, DISTINCT consideres this objects equivalent, so I may put "use Java serialization" in a TODO.
16:47	jpfuentes2	anyone here ever use clj-ssh and see auth errors?
16:53	amalloy	edw: clojure collections all implement Serializable, so you should be able to just use an ObjectOutputStream and be done
16:55	hugod	jpfuentes2: what short of auth errors?
16:55	jpfuentes2	USERAUTH fail
16:55	jpfuentes2	but all my args are right, and I know I can ssh into the host
16:55	michaniskin	i'm using clj-soap to make requests to a SOAP service. one of the API functions has optional arguments but i don't see a way of indicating which argument is which in the clj-soap client call. is this possible?
16:55	jpfuentes2	:ssh {:username "root"
16:55	jpfuentes2	:private-key-path "~/.ssh/id_rsa"
16:55	jpfuentes2	:strict-host-key-checking false
16:55	jpfuentes2	}
16:56	hugod	jpfuentes2: anything in the server logs?
16:56	justin_smith	jpfuentes2: are you sure that it interpolates "~" ? try expanding the path
16:56	hugod	yes, ~ is a shell thing
16:57	jpfuentes2	i tried that : (
16:57	jpfuentes2	when i'm running this with `lein test` a Java window pops up really quickly and disappears too
16:57	jpfuentes2	Apr 16 20:54:10 n1 sshd[1712]: Received disconnect from 172.20.20.1: 3: com.jcraft.jsch.JSchException: USERAUTH fail [preauth]
16:58	hugod	clj-ssh also logs the equivalent of ssh -vv on the client
16:59	edw	justin_smith: No, nothing mutable. Just a lot of shared structure. A lot of keys with the same compound value. The difference between deserializing with out preserved vs preserved structure could be 5:1 or greater.
16:59	edw	amalloy: Thanks.
16:59	jpfuentes2	i need to hook that up, or is that in the exception message ?
17:02	hugod	jpfuentes2: via java logging
17:03	jpfuentes2	thanks
17:03	jpfuentes2	any idea on why a Java window pops up when I'm trying this?
17:04	hugod	it uses jna, and jna loads (but doesn't use) jwt
17:04	justin_smith	maybe it is trying to use the OS keychain?
17:04	hugod	it uses the system ssh-agent
17:05	justin_smith	which probably needs access to the Desktop system
17:05	justin_smith	which requires the silly window, I bet
17:05	hugod	it uses jna to get access to the socket
17:05	jpfuentes2	gotcha
17:06	hugod	you can run it with -Djava.awt.headless=true without any problems
17:06	hugod	I obviously meant awt, rather than jwt
17:07	justin_smith	hugod: ahh, yeah, that makes much more sense :)
17:07	hugod	if anyone knows how to use jna without it loading awt, then I'm all ears
17:08	jpfuentes2	interesting ...
17:09	jpfuentes2	it's as if it doesn't like RSA keys?
17:09	jpfuentes2	i just generated a test DSA pair and put it on server
17:09	jpfuentes2	looks like it worked
17:09	hugod	I use rsa keys all the time with it
17:10	hugod	does your rsa key have a passphrase?
17:11	hugod	if so it needs to be in the ssh-agent
17:12	jpfuentes2	no, it doesn't
17:13	hugod	is it particularly large? I think there was a 4096bit limitation from memory
17:14	jpfuentes2	1.7K
17:14	hugod	that's the filesize I take it, rather than the number of bits in the key
17:14	jpfuentes2	yep
17:15	hugod	should be fine
17:15	jpfuentes2	well, i'll just go w/ this new pair for now
17:15	jpfuentes2	thank you for your help : )
17:16	hugod	np, let me know if you find the issue
17:36	arav93	I tried (clojure.instant/read-instant-date "2014-04-16T12:34:56+01:00")
17:36	arav93	and I got #inst "2014-04-16T12:34:56+01:00"
17:37	arav93	I'm not sure what is the data type of the output.
17:37	amalloy	arav93: (class x) will tell you, for any x, what type x is
17:38	arav93	stuartsierra: Could you explain how parse-timestamp works. i haven't been able to check it out.
17:38	arav93	amalloy: Thanks!
17:39	stuartsierra	arav93: It's a java.util.Date
17:39	arav93	I understood that part, stuartsierra
17:42	stuartsierra	arav93: Then I don't understand your question, I'm sorry.
17:42	gfredericks	data literals are super confusing for people who encounter them without an introduction
17:43	gfredericks	mostly the fact that they aren't tied to particular types; which is of course half of the point
17:43	technomancy	"wait you can have a space in between two things without a pair of delimiters wtf"
17:43	technomancy	where "two things" actually means one thing?
17:43	gfredericks	man paredit is never going to figure that out
17:44	alandipert	also #{1 1} demonstrates that they add evaluation semantics
17:45	justin_smith	gfredericks: and emacs will never syntax highlight usages of #_ properly either
17:45	gfredericks	technomancy: let's start having formalized language feature factions within the community; the technomancy faction will hate records/protocols/data-readers and love multimethods
17:46	arav93	stuartsierra: Correct me if I'm wrong. To get the required result, I have to pass a 'java.util.Date' and I'd get the required result?
17:46	technomancy	gfredericks: can't me make it more general and just love reloading and interactive development?
17:47	martinklepsch	I'm bulk inserting things into Elasticsearch and would like to know how long this takes. When I wrap the call in a (time ) call it prints 350msec which isn't right — how would I go about doing something like this?
17:47	justin_smith	arav93: didn't we discuss parse-timestamp recently? wasn't your main interest how to annotate it for core.typed?
17:48	arav93	justin_smith: Yes. There were some unresolved issues.
17:48	justin_smith	martinklepsch: you could manually record the timestamps with ##(.getTime (java.util.Date.)) and manually calculate the ms
17:48	lazybot	⇒ 1397684730098
17:49	stuartsierra	arav93: Sorry, I still don't understand what you're asking.
17:49	martinklepsch	justin_smith that sounds... elegant!
17:49	martinklepsch	:D
17:50	justin_smith	martinklepsch: not that I have any idea why time would be returning a bad result
17:50	justin_smith	but .getTime from a Date should be reliable
17:53	justin_smith	martinklepsch: maybe some other thread is doing the work, and time is only checking the round trip time of spawning that thread and returning?
17:54	martinklepsch	justin_smith, I'm eval'ing in lighttable, will try repl
17:54	martinklepsch	not using futures or anything though
17:54	justin_smith	my suspicion is the underlying lib may be using a thread
17:54	justin_smith	who knows though (could check the source of course)
17:56	martinklepsch	justin_smith, yeah, that would make sense indeed
17:56	systemfault	Hmm, macros are often said to be a selling point for any LISP… how often do you guys use macros in clojure?
17:57	justin_smith	use: constantly write: very very rarely
17:58	technomancy	they're very useful for selling lisp.
17:58	systemfault	Okay, I looked at a core.async video like 2 months ago… it’s written using macros, right?
17:58	justin_smith	right
17:58	pdk	what in clojure doesn't involve macros
17:58	justin_smith	so is "or", "and", "if", "defn"...
17:59	systemfault	What is a good case for writing a macro? Anything that cannot be done using normal functions? (I’m a beginner)
17:59	Bronsa	justin_smith: if is actually a special form
17:59	justin_smith	if you need to change the evaluation rules
17:59	justin_smith	fair enough
18:00	justin_smith	,(filter (comp :macro meta second) (ns-publics 'clojure.core))
18:00	clojurebot	([when-first #'clojure.core/when-first] [cond->> #'clojure.core/cond->>] [gen-class #'clojure.core/gen-class] [while #'clojure.core/while] [import #'clojure.core/import] ...)
18:00	justin_smith	in your own repl that will list all macros in clojure.core
18:01	justin_smith	76 out of 591 public definitions in my version
18:01	systemfault	Not that bad then
18:01	systemfault	This is like 13%
18:02	Raynes	systemfault: What you want, almost always regardless of what it is, can be done with functions, just less pretty. That less pretty but functional sample should be the foundation upon which you build your macros to make things prettier.
18:03	justin_smith	Best practice is to always use a function, unless the thing you need can only be a macro. Do play with them to figure out what they do, just don't expect to actually need them in real code that often.
18:03	systemfault	So no need to become a macro god, I get it :)
18:03	technomancy	clojure.core is not intended to be representative of good style for user-level code
18:05	systemfault	Then… one last question. Any thought about core.typed? (types are attractive to me in most languages but do I want them in clojure?)
18:09	Jaood	Raynes: are you saying one should write the code first using functions and then (if you feel like or need it) rewrite it using macros to make it prettier?
18:14	TimMc	Jaood: Where "prettier" means "not unbearably redundant", yeah.
18:16	justin_smith	don't forget evaluation semantics - if you need short circuiting, rearranging before eval, or structural manipulation of your args, it's gotta be a macro
18:17	martinklepsch	whats the way to switch to a custom namespace in the repl?
18:17	justin_smith	martinklepsch: pre-existing or creating a new one?
18:17	martinklepsch	existing
18:18	justin_smith	(doc in-ns)
18:18	justin_smith	,(doc in-ns)
18:18	clojurebot	"([name]); Sets ns to the namespace named by the symbol, creating it if needed."
18:18	martinklepsch	thought in-ns should do it but nothing defined in there
18:18	clojurebot	"([name]); Sets ns to the namespace named by the symbol, creating it if needed."
18:18	martinklepsch	hm
18:18	martinklepsch	then I must be too stupid
18:19	justin_smith	,(do (in-ns 'foo) ::bar)
18:19	clojurebot	:sandbox/bar
18:19	justin_smith	erm...
18:19	TimMc	heh, nice try
18:19	TimMc	::bar is expanded when that form is read
18:19	justin_smith	,::bar
18:19	clojurebot	:sandbox/bar
18:19	justin_smith	ahh
18:20	TimMc	,(do (in-ns 'foo) ns)
18:20	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: ns in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
18:20	amalloy	martinklepsch: when you use ns (or in-ns) to go into a namespace, it is empty
18:20	justin_smith	,(do (in-ns 'foo) clojure.core/ns)
18:20	clojurebot	#<Namespace foo>
18:20	amalloy	if you want to load a namespace from a source file, you need to use require
18:20	justin_smith	amalloy: he said it was pre-existing
18:21	TimMc	Oh yep.
18:21	amalloy	justin_smith: you and he didn't understand each other
18:21	justin_smith	oh, yeah, maybe not yet loaded
18:21	justin_smith	got it
18:21	justin_smith	to me "pre-existing" implied "required from a file already"
18:23	arrdem	Better names for a "math with units" library than arrdem/units? :P
18:26	justin_smith	don't name it clunitsjure
18:27	arrdem	I _think_ I have better taste than that. Should probably check.
18:28	justin_smith	if you want something less obvious: measures
18:28	Morgawr	mm.. I have a defrecord in a namespace and I require'd the namespace in another file and use (MyDefinedRecord. parameters) and it doesn't work
18:28	danneu	If I have a collection of points: [{:latitude 18, :longitude: -8, :score 42}, ...], does anyone know of the sort of algorithm that can "filter points with the highest score within 5km"?
18:28	justin_smith	maybe
18:28	Morgawr	records don't go out of their namespace?
18:28	gtrak	meajure
18:28	justin_smith	ouch
18:28	arrdem	my brain...
18:28	martinklepsch	amalloy, justin_smith, to me pre-existing meant that it's defined somwhere :D
18:28	justin_smith	in your clojure runtime or in the abstract wider universe?
18:28	arrdem	gtrak: that's so painful I may just use it..
18:29	Bronsa	+1 for meajure
18:29	arrdem	3/3 Clojure hax0rz hate the name. Meajure it is.
18:29	gtrak	my 2 cents :-)
18:29	arrdem	technomancy: ^ you see this. you see it.
18:29	amalloy	Morgawr: records don't live in a namespace; they're java classes
18:29	amalloy	you have to import them like any other java class
18:29	Morgawr	ah
18:29	Morgawr	I see
18:30	Morgawr	didn't know that, thanks
18:30	technomancy	arrdem: better be sufficiently hilarious
18:31	gtrak	or mehjure
18:31	arrdem	meajure is actually pretty good... most of this is gonna be math on financial units anyway rather than metric/imperial.
18:32	amalloy	arrdem: there are a number of unit-of-measure libs out there already. have you decided they're all no good?
18:33	arrdem	amalloy: I only found one, and it targets Clojure 1.2
18:33	arrdem	amalloy: so... yes.
18:33	amalloy	https://github.com/martintrojer/frinj/blob/master/project.clj
18:33	amalloy	and there's nothing wrong with targeting 1.2, if it still works fine on 1.5 or whatever
18:34	arrdem	that lib used all sorts of stuff from Contrib that doesn't exist anymore.
18:34	amalloy	https://github.com/fogus/minderbinder/blob/master/project.clj
18:35	justin_smith	but these don't have a nice web2.0 friendly name like meajure
18:36	arrdem	justin_smith: shush you. I'll take a reasonable lib by someone I trust.
18:36	arrdem	besides. that name is kinda evil..
18:36	arrdem	(inc amalloy)
18:36	lazybot	⇒ 99
18:36	arrdem	$karma technomancy
18:36	lazybot	technomancy has karma 105.
18:37	justin_smith	(reduce max (all-karma))
18:38	jaimef	can you guys stop spamming /r/lisp? k/thanks :P
18:38	arrdem	jaimef: but we have the better lisp...
18:39	justin_smith	http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp I see very little clojure content there
18:39	justin_smith	is the problem that it shows up at all?
18:40	arrdem	justin_smith: yes. that subreddit insists that it's the CL subreddit, not the *lisp subreddit.
18:40	arrdem	justin_smith: Clojure stuff gets downvoted agressively
18:40	arrdem	complete with the usual Symbolics fetish..
18:44	arrdem	amalloy: thanks for the links... looks like neither is a fit for my use case tho.
18:46	arrdem	If I was doing math with fixed conversion rates, minderbinder is perfect. Unfortunately the nature of the task is floating conversion rates (currencies).
18:47	amalloy	i mean, if /r/lisp wants to be a common-lisp community, and their sidebar suggests they do, why would you post clojure stuff there? it's just rude. like, sure, they got a too-general name, but that's just too bad
18:47	justin_smith	arrdem: in that case, something like "standard" could be a good name
18:47	amalloy	arrdem: isn't that one of the use-cases frinj says it's great for?
18:47	justin_smith	fiat, specie...
18:49	arrdem	amalloy: reading..
18:49	arrdem	;; A big plastic bottle of really bad vodka?
18:49	arrdem	things I never expected to see in source code..
18:50	justin_smith	arrdem: https://github.com/martintrojer/frinj/blob/master/src/frinj/feeds.clj
18:51	arrdem	justin_smith: oh damn.
18:51	arrdem	still uses a global atom tho :P
18:51	amalloy	https://github.com/martintrojer/frinj/blob/master/src/frinj/feeds.clj#L23-L24 - augh just today i gave a class on why this is an evil race condition
18:51	justin_smith	arrdem: that's fair grounds for a fork with optional rename
18:52	arrdem	amalloy: yaaay dosync!
18:52	amalloy	arrdem: no, just a less-bad swap! function
18:52	amalloy	(swap! feed-pool #(or % (...)))
18:52	arrdem	amalloy: right.
18:52	justin_smith	then you can even leave out the when-not, yeah
18:53	amalloy	one of my slides was like "you think you need a ref and dosync, but really you just need to be more careful with your dang atoms"
18:53	justin_smith	amalloy: at a university? workshop?
18:53	amalloy	justin_smith: for other factual engineers
18:53	justin_smith	cool
18:53	arrdem	amalloy: is there a good rule of thumb for when to dosync? it's not a corner of the language I've trodden before, and I tend to just abuse swap! functions.
18:54	amalloy	arrdem: rule of thumb: don't
18:54	llasram	amalloy: Oh, are you at Factual now?
18:54	amalloy	like, refs are cool. but you never need them. i've used like five
18:54	arrdem	amalloy: I like that rule!
18:54	amalloy	once a year
18:54	llasram	I've still never used one
18:54	amalloy	llasram: yeah, for about two months now
18:54	llasram	I should study amalloy's uses of them :-)
18:54	llasram	amalloy: Cool!
18:54	arrdem	I only saw one last week... and promptly submitted a PR that got rid of it :P
18:54	llasram	haha
18:55	justin_smith	amalloy: so do you use an atom of a map instead of separate refs that need to stay syncronized?
18:55	amalloy	when possible, yeah
18:55	amalloy	(and it usually is)
18:56	amalloy	llasram: let me know if you find them. i don't know how to search for it
18:57	arrdem	hum... well I can't use frinj's feed structure directly due to API lags.. but I can just add-unit! myself.
18:57	llasram	amalloy: I'll just clone all your repos and grep for '(ref ' :-)
18:57	justin_smith	I saw a blog where a guy was talking about the poor MP performance of swap! with deep structures, and I imagined that synchronizing only on the set of refs you use would be less likely to lock things up than all the threads fighting over a big map they all want to modify
18:57	justin_smith	I'll see if I can dig it up
18:58	amalloy	justin_smith: for sure that's true, if you're doing something expensive to distinct subsets of a large structure
18:59	amalloy	one amusing trick you can do is, instead of storing the actual value in the atom, store a delay of the value
18:59	justin_smith	oh nice, tricky
18:59	amalloy	then the work you do while swapping is very small, and then the deref does the work whenever
18:59	amalloy	but that makes reading not-cheap, which rich frowns on
19:00	amalloy	(because when N people deref a delay at once, N-1 of them block)
19:00	TimMc	I don't understand this trick you're talking about.
19:01	hiredman	amalloy: and is that way even once the value is realized
19:01	justin_smith	TimMc: the expensive calculation is not done while the swap! locks the object
19:01	TimMc	it makes me think of https://gist.github.com/samn/5843422
19:01	amalloy	hiredman: sure, although it's a pretty short locking window in that case
19:02	TimMc	justin_smith: Oh, swap in a delay that will perform the work at that node?
19:02	TimMc	...interesting.
19:02	justin_smith	TimMc: that's what I assumed amalloy meant, yeah
19:02	justin_smith	similar in spirit to using a lazy seq I guess
19:04	amalloy	i used that trick in https://github.com/amalloy/hermes/blob/master/src/flatland/hermes/queue.clj, to keep a buffer of "all the things that have happened in the last N minutes", where both reading and writing are expected to clean out stale events. i'm not sure anymore whether it was really a good thing to do, but it's an example
19:05	gtrak	maybe I should just join the http-kit party
19:05	gtrak	anyone have anything bad to say about it?
19:06	gtrak	just using jetty b/c lazy
19:06	justin_smith	it can break ring apps that assume the whole processing of the request happens in a single thread; IMHO that just means the ring app was broken though
19:06	justin_smith	http-kit is good
19:07	gtrak	ah yea, I wouldn't want to rely on that.
19:07	bhauman	loving websockets in http-kit
19:07	justin_smith	and the performance is great
19:07	justin_smith	and not needing a container on production
19:08	gtrak	the jetty ones seem to work.. but I noticed sente lets you define it as a ring-handler, whereas the jetty websocket server is further down.
19:11	arrdem	yaay my halfbaked units work. closeenough.jpg
19:12	amalloy	arrdem: the lisp motto
19:13	arrdem	amalloy: :D
19:16	petron	hmm, can't figure out why my Clojure implementation of the Top K quickselect algorithm is error'ing out for certain inputs: https://www.refheap.com/76711
19:17	amalloy	too many parens on line 11
19:17	arrdem	amalloy: 14 I think you mean..
19:17	amalloy	har har
19:18	amalloy	he asked why it doesn't work, not why it's stylistically a little unpleasant
19:18	kenneth	hey all, macro question
19:18	arrdem	no... 11 doesn't close the cond block..
19:19	kenneth	say i have a macro like this: (defmacro def-react-class [ name & args ] `(def ~name (.createClass React ~@args)))
19:19	amalloy	arrdem: read line 11 more carefully. particularly the test (ie, leftmost part)
19:19	amalloy	compare it to line 9
19:19	arrdem	amalloy: herp derp. gotcha.
19:19	arrdem	amalloy: good eye.
19:20	Jaood	arrdem: don't you dare challenge amalloy !
19:20	kenneth	instead of just splicing in the args i'd like to transform them in a more complex way, how might i do that?
19:20	arrdem	Jaood: http://arrdem.com/i/really.gif
19:20	amalloy	(.createClass React ~@(whatever args))
19:21	kenneth	and whatever would just be a function that is called with the args
19:21	Jaood	arrdem: ;)
19:21	jarjar_prime	Hey there :-)
19:21	amalloy	but srsly, also really consider not writing a def* macro. just make the macro expand to (.createClass React whatever), and then someone can def it if they want
19:21	justin_smith	kenneth: write a function that takes a sequence representing the macro's input, and outputs the sequence that the macro should produce
19:21	justin_smith	kenneth: then call said function in the macro
19:21	Jaood	do you all have like emacs shortcuts for pasting gifs on irc? :)
19:21	jarjar_prime	is there a way to (or) a lazy-seq?
19:21	amalloy	&(doc any?)
19:21	jarjar_prime	so I can filter on them?
19:21	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve var: any? in this context
19:22	amalloy	er, i guess we just have ##(doc some)
19:22	lazybot	⇒ "([pred coll]); Returns the first logical true value of (pred x) for any x in coll, else nil. One common idiom is to use a set as pred, for example this will return :fred if :fred is in the sequence, otherwise nil: (some #{:fred} coll)"
19:22	arrdem	Jaood: tech is believed to have his own keybind tools... I just remember what images I have in my collection :P
19:22	jarjar_prime	(or (map #(namespace-prefix %) (string/split namespaces #","))) <-- that's kind of what i'm attempting
19:22	amalloy	jarjar_prime: what do you imagine that returning?
19:23	jarjar_prime	I want to feed that into a (filter), so I would like it to return true
19:23	justin_smith	arrdem: technomancy designs custom keyboards with dedicated gif-pasting keys, optimized for most pleasant possible keyfeel and click sound when sending the perfect gif
19:23	amalloy	jarjar_prime: i think you mean ##(doc some)
19:23	lazybot	⇒ "([pred coll]); Returns the first logical true value of (pred x) for any x in coll, else nil. One common idiom is to use a set as pred, for example this will return :fred if :fred is in the sequence, otherwise nil: (some #{:fred} coll)"
19:23	amalloy	(some namespace-prefix (s/split namespaces #","))
19:23	arrdem	justin_smith: you forgot that he's writing a forth implementation therefor so he can optimize the pasting in hardware..
19:24	Jaood	marcopolo`: marco
19:24	jarjar_prime	ah ok sweet, let me give that a try
19:28	jarjar_prime	amalloy: great (some) works :-)
19:28	jarjar_prime	(some #(.startsWith (name keywd) %)
19:28	jarjar_prime	(map #(namespace-prefix %) (string/split namespaces #",")))
19:29	justin_smith	jarjar_prime: you could eliminate the map call by putting the namespace-prefix call into the some predicate
19:29	Morgawr	what do you guys think is the best way of handling a tree data structure in clojure?
19:29	Morgawr	more specifically, an octree
19:30	justin_smith	jarjar_prime: or I guess you are doing that because you actually want to return the result of namespace-prefix
19:30	justin_smith	Morgawr: how much garbage are you OK with creating, and how fast does it need to be?
19:31	amalloy	by the way, justin_smith, you asked about where my class was. it's for factual, but it's not proprietary: the slides are at https://github.com/amalloy/clojure-concurrency-class, along with the code examples. original outline (which served a little bit like speaker notes)
19:31	akhudek	how do you pass closure compiler options with cljsbuild? Specifically, —debug
19:31	justin_smith	Morgawr: for doing some geometry stuff I found a quad-tree made of maps / vectors was fine, but in real time 3d rendering you may want to use something lower level
19:31	justin_smith	amalloy: cool, thanks for sharing
19:31	Morgawr	I'd need as fast as possible but it has to be pure Clojure (no java stuff)
19:31	Morgawr	I don't mind allocating extra memory/garbage
19:32	Morgawr	I was thinking of doing maps of maps
19:32	Morgawr	with vectors of children
19:32	justin_smith	so it's not like you will be creating a new octree for each frame at 60fps or something
19:32	Morgawr	like { :key val, :children [ { :key val :children [] } { :key val :children [] }] } or something like this
19:32	Morgawr	justin_smith: I don't have soft (or hard) realtime needs, if that's what you're asking
19:33	justin_smith	Morgawr: yeah, that sounds about right - and there are other options with similar semantics if that is too slow
19:33	Morgawr	I'll try with this, thanks
19:33	justin_smith	of course you will be using update-in / get-in extensively :)
19:34	Morgawr	yeah
19:34	justin_smith	you can promote from map to defrecord easily if you see perf issues without changing the rest of the code (besides the generation code)
19:35	Morgawr	yeah I think I will use a defrecord anyway
19:35	justin_smith	also if children is of a specific fixed maximum size, you could flatten it into the record for an extra boost
19:36	amalloy	justin_smith: that's not necessarily an improvement
19:36	Morgawr	chilren is of max size of 8
19:36	Morgawr	cause it's an octtree
19:36	Morgawr	what do you mean flatten it into the record?
19:37	justin_smith	amalloy: oh no? it removes a level of indirection and replaces a vector lookup with a record lookup, both should be wins, right?
19:37	Morgawr	you mean having something like { :keys val 0 child0 1 child1 2 child2 ... ... } ?
19:37	Morgawr	instead of { :keys val :children [] } ?
19:37	justin_smith	Morgawr: exactly
19:37	amalloy	justin_smith: (MyRec. new-value old-children) is a lot cheaper than (MyRec. new-value (:child1 old-rec) (:child2 old-rec) ...)
19:38	amalloy	Morgawr: i recommend just using a map instead of a defrecord. but if you really want to use a defrecord, i definitely recommend not doing the thing justin_smith just suggested about flattening
19:38	justin_smith	ahh
19:38	Morgawr	yeah I don't like the flattening thing because of what you said about incremental upgrades
19:38	amalloy	not just because of performance but because it's disgusting
19:38	Morgawr	but why do you recommend using a normal map intead of a defrecod?
19:38	Morgawr	defrecord*
19:38	amalloy	because that's the default. you need a good reason to use a record instead
19:39	arrdem	can someone explain this? not something I've seen before. https://github.com/fogus/minderbinder/blob/master/src/data_readers.clj
19:39	justin_smith	amalloy: why not just use assoc to create the new record rather than using the constructor?
19:39	amalloy	justin_smith: doesn't matter, it has to do the same amount of work
19:39	justin_smith	ahh
19:39	Morgawr	amalloy: isn't the advantage of a record that it has a fixed structure and is implemented as a java class so it has better performance when not used in a generic setting?
19:40	amalloy	http://cemerick.com/2011/07/05/flowchart-for-choosing-the-right-clojure-type-definition-form/
19:40	Morgawr	in this case all my elements/subtrees are going to have the exact amount of elements
19:40	petron	amalloy, I don't see any paren-related syntax problems for my top-k fn.
19:40	justin_smith	petron: you are wrapping a number in parens
19:40	amalloy	Morgawr: the point is you haven't done it with a map yet. you don't know if you need the performance. don't give up the flexibility of maps until you know you need records
19:40	justin_smith	on line 11
19:41	amalloy	once you do know that, it's an easy change to use records instead
19:41	petron	ahhhhh
19:41	petron	thx justin_smith
19:41	justin_smith	amalloy: it's a well known data structure, I doubt it will change as he works on it
19:41	petron	typo from an old do clause
19:41	petron	thx for spotting that
19:41	Morgawr	amalloy: I'm looking for the best performance (I'm doing a case study on performance comparisons with some algorithms in java and clojure) and I already know I need an octree
19:42	Morgawr	and it's well-defined data structure
19:42	Morgawr	it's not something that I'll need to change and maintain
19:42	Morgawr	and afaik records behave exactly like maps, you can add new key/value pairs and they won't care
19:42	amalloy	well, they behave mostly like maps
19:42	justin_smith	Morgawr: that just creates a map under the hood
19:43	amalloy	you can't dissoc, you can't have missing keys
19:43	Morgawr	justin_smith: it's still a record as far as I know, just with added fields
19:43	Morgawr	amalloy: yeah
19:43	amalloy	you can't call them as functions
19:44	amalloy	if your goal is to compare performance, it's reasonable to aim for high performance. but records aren't that much faster, really. try it out and decide for yourself
19:44	Morgawr	ah, I didn't know about them not being callable as functions
19:44	Morgawr	neat
20:06	justin_smith	maybe deftype would perform better than defrecord (easy enough to find out I guess)
20:08	petron	justin_smith, the syntax is good now, but I'm getting bad results :\
20:09	akhudek	hmm, source maps is trying to tell me that the problem I’m having with advanced compilation is in the closure string library
20:09	akhudek	that doesn’t sound right
20:09	justin_smith	petron: maybe that calls for breaking it down into smaller functions and ensuring that each does what you expect?
20:10	arrdem	amalloy: having done a preliminary google, do you know of multimethod math in Clojure? seems like something obvious someone else's done before..
20:10	beamso	multimethod math?
20:11	amalloy	numeric-tower probably has it
20:11	amalloy	which i think used to be generic-math
20:11	arrdem	yeah I found the old generic-math..
20:12	justin_smith	https://github.com/clojure/math.numeric-tower/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/math/numeric_tower.clj#L103
20:12	justin_smith	it uses a protocol
20:12	arrdem	thanks justin_smith. I knew I'd seen something like this around before.
20:13	justin_smith	it's a smaller ns than I expected
20:14	arrdem	it's also kinda all it takes to put Clojure math on par with "normal" Lisp math :facepalm:
20:14	Pate_	thx, justin_smith I think my partition-by predicate is buggy
20:17	ToBeReplaced	arrdem: see algo.generic
20:17	arrdem	ToBeReplaced: THANK YOU
20:17	arrdem	(inc ToBeReplaced)
20:17	lazybot	⇒ 2
20:18	jergason	friends, i'm struggling with moving to a functional style.
20:18	ToBeReplaced	ha, i didn't know i had ever been inc'd in the first place
20:18	jergason	i find myself using let everywhere to make local variables, and it feels icky
20:18	arrdem	ToBeReplaced: :P I can remember most of the standard library... the contribs just clutter my head :(
20:18	jergason	are there some general strategies to avoid doing imperative programming via lets in clojure?
20:18	jergason	does this even make my sense?
20:18	jergason	*sense
20:18	justin_smith	jergason: but local bindings is the only reason to use let, and let is the main way to make local bindings
20:18	Pate_	justin_smith, fixed! partition-by doesn't work the way I thought it did.
20:19	jergason	yeah, i just feel like i'm abusing local bindings
20:19	justin_smith	well I guess it does sequencing too
20:19	arrdem	so why is that algo.generic when we have numeric-tower..
20:19	justin_smith	abusing them?
20:20	justin_smith	if you need to do multiple things in a specific order, and know all their return values, let is just fine for that
20:20	scottj	jergason: if you want more specific help, share a snippet of code and people can give feedback
20:20	justin_smith	and even if you ignore some return values (using _ on the lsh), that's still OK
20:20	justin_smith	*lhs
20:20	jergason	i shall do this
20:20	arrdem	(inc ToBeReplaced) ;; have some more karma. exactly what I was trying to remember.
20:20	lazybot	⇒ 3
20:20	jergason	lemme make it work first
20:23	ToBeReplaced	arrdem: it looks like the protocol in numeric-tower is meant for internal implementation of just those methods that need to be dispatched over primitives
20:23	ToBeReplaced	i certainly wouldn't extend them... i'd use algo-generic for algebraic props
20:24	scottj	jergason: btw, rich uses a lot of let bindings IMO, see for example codeq.
20:25	scottj	so you're in good company :)
20:25	arrdem	ToBeReplaced: yeah. I'm just gonna work off of algo
20:25	arrdem	seriously tho... I knew that such a thing existed. I'm not insane! yay!
20:35	arrdem	technomancy: is lein supposed to load "user.clj" before it does anything?
20:37	technomancy	arrdem: yeah, that's outside its control
20:37	technomancy	clojure does that; no way to turn it off or anything even if we wanted to
20:37	arrdem	:sadpanda:
20:37	arrdem	okay thanks. didn't know that.
20:40	Frozenlock	technomancy: might I ask more info about this? https://github.com/ato/clojars-web/pull/203#issuecomment-40665321
20:40	Frozenlock	Where do you put this code?
20:40	technomancy	Frozenlock: that's just from the dotfiles for my browser
20:41	technomancy	gotta head out for dinner; bbiab
20:41	arrdem	TIL tech is a konqueror user.
20:41	technomancy	dude
20:41	technomancy	not konqueror
20:41	technomancy	conkeror
20:42	TEttinger	the XULrunner based keyboard driven browser, conkeror
20:43	arrdem	man... I may just switch browsers for webjumps.
20:43	arrdem	crud
20:58	akhudek	how I wish for this right now https://code.google.com/p/closure-compiler/wiki/FAQ#My_code_broke_when_using_advanced_optimizations!_How_do_I_figure
21:30	xeqi	Frozenlock: yep, I didn't use <button>s initially, and hadn't gotten back around to fixing it
21:31	Frozenlock	xeqi: Ok, so I'm not crazy :)
21:32	Frozenlock	I sent you a pull request, for the tiny tiny change.
21:32	xeqi	I wouldn't go that far
21:42	arrdem	where would you guys suggest starting on wrapping this? https://github.com/pusher/pusher-java-client
21:43	arrdem	I'm a little thrown by the anon class instantiation, and how to duplicate it.
21:56	dissipate	in order to use tools.logging do you have to have log4j or another java based logger installed?
22:07	llasram	dissipate: In your deps, yeah
22:27	amalloy	arrdem: you want reify
22:42	dissipate	amalloy, what is the most light weight logging utility to get up and running quickly?
22:45	amalloy	why are you asking me? if it's a general question and not a continuation of a conversation we've been having, ask the channel
22:46	dissipate	what is the most light weight 'batteries included' logging utility?
22:46	gfredericks	are those contradictory requirements?
22:49	dissipate	gfredericks, i don't want to mess with log4j or any of the other complicated ones
22:49	nightfly	rsyslog
22:50	dissipate	nightfly, any experience with this one? https://github.com/pjlegato/onelog
22:53	ddellacosta	dissipate: clojure.tools.logging works just fine
23:02	dissipate	ddellacosta, i guess i'll use that with just the default log4j config file
23:02	dissipate	ddellacosta, but i don't understand why tools.logging is so heavy
23:02	ddellacosta	dissipate: what do you mean, heavy?
23:03	dissipate	ddellacosta, log4j is crazy. it has a 200 page manual that goes with it.
23:04	ddellacosta	dissipate: what does that have to do with tools.logging?
23:04	dissipate	ddellacosta, it uses log4j
23:04	ddellacosta	dissipate: use timbre if you want to pretend you are not using java
23:05	ddellacosta	dissipate: it's significantly "heavier" though, in terms of Clojure codebase
23:06	dissipate	ddellacosta, onelog it is for me then. i just want to log to stdout
23:36	ToBeReplaced	dissipate: i don't know what was going on before... clojure.tools.logging is solid, and will use whatever logging backend is in your path... if you don't have one, it will use java.util.logging, which will go to stdout by default
23:39	dissipate	ToBeReplaced, ah, i did not realize that. thanks for the info.
23:41	dissipate	ToBeReplaced, you wouldn't happen to know a good scheduling library other than the ones listed here? http://www.clojure-toolbox.com/ something lightweight
23:45	ToBeReplaced	unfortunately there are no good scheduling libraries anywhere ;)
23:46	ToBeReplaced	dissipate: it depends what you are looking for... i don't think there are any viable alternatives to Quartz or Cronacle for the enterprise, but i haven't looked recently
23:47	ToBeReplaced	nothing wrong with ScheduledThreadPoolExecutor if you're talking "do this once a minute" type of stuff
23:48	amalloy	~java.util.concurrent
23:48	clojurebot	java.util.concurrent is "When I find myself in times of trouble / Prof. Doug Lea comes to me / Coding lines of wisdom / j.u.c."
23:48	dissipate	ToBeReplaced, i'm not really interested in scheduling something for the future or doing some cron-like schedule. my use case is scheduling something right away based on a message from a queue. i just want to be able to keep track of the running task, and start/stop/pause it