#clojure – 2014-04-14

2014-04-14

00:01	martinklepsch	another question on futures... creating a future for reading, parsing, deleting a file for a few thousand files and return a list of futures — does that sound something what you'd do with futures?
00:04	amalloy	martinklepsch: you don't really want to create a thousand futures at once - that's a lot of scheduler contention
00:05	martinklepsch	amalloy, whats something I should look into then to read/parse/delete files paralelly
00:06	maxthoursie	sounds like a task for a queue
00:07	awalker	having a hard time wrapping my head around this destructuring behavior: https://www.refheap.com/75845
00:08	awalker	I'm expecting the 2nd example to work, but it fails.
00:08	turbofail	martinklepsch: take a look at the claypoole library, it's pretty sweet
00:10	martinklepsch	turbofail looks interesting thanks!
00:11	Raynes	awalker: (apply (fn [& {:as more}] more) (mapcat identity {:a 1}))
00:12	Raynes	Ideally, if you have control over this function you'd just make it take a map instead.
00:12	Raynes	Generally if you find yourself unrolling arguments for the sake of keyword destructuring, it's better to just pass a map.
00:15	awalker	thank you, but why does the 2nd ex fail? feels like it should work but is it intentionally not supported?
00:17	[Neurotic]	Anyone else noticed that clojars latest-version.svg is being aggressively cached by github? It doesn't seem to be updating in my README.md
00:19	amalloy	awalker: because when you seq {:a 1}, you get ([:a 1]), not (:a 1)
00:20	amalloy	so when you apply f to ([:a 1]), it sees a single arg, [:a 1], rather than the two args :a and 1 you wanted to pass
00:20	bob2	pretty sure github doesn't touch it at all, and just tells your browser to load it
00:21	awalker	ah, thank you
00:21	[Neurotic]	bob2: was that to me?
00:31	bob2	[Neurotic], yes
00:32	[Neurotic]	bob2: I wish ;) nope, they now cache it on fastly cdn - it's no longer pass through
00:32	[Neurotic]	https://github.com/github/markup/issues/224
00:37	bob2	interesting
00:44	[Neurotic]	there is a Cache-Control: max-age=0 in the header, but doesn't look like it's respecting it
02:07	dissipate	how do you set up selectors with clojure.test? for instance, i want to tag a particular test as an 'integration' test, and only have it run when i want to select integration tests to be run
02:11	dissipate	nevermind, looks like this is supported by lein
03:57	sm0ke	can macros be made private?
03:57	amalloy	yes, but there's not much point (as with functions, really). like, you prevent the user from...expanding into code they could have written themselves? what's the point?
03:58	sm0ke	point being hiding them from documentation
03:59	amalloy	mmm. well, you could see if your doc-generator supports some annotation other than ^:private, or you could put them into an "internal" namespace and ask it not to document that namespace
03:59	amalloy	or document it as "bro, don't use this. you'll regret it"
03:59	sm0ke	:P
03:59	sm0ke	what if the bro is adventurous
04:00	amalloy	then...so what?
04:00	sm0ke	let me try attaching meta
04:00	amalloy	they used a function you told them not to, and it made them happy. if a future version of your software removes it, they only have themselves to blame
04:00	sm0ke	i am using codox
04:01	amalloy	https://github.com/weavejester/codox#skipping-individual-functions
04:01	sm0ke	,(doc defmacro)
04:01	clojurebot	"([name doc-string? attr-map? [params] body] [name doc-string? attr-map? ([params] body) + ...]); Like defn, but the resulting function name is declared as a macro and will be used as a macro by the compiler when it is called."
04:01	sm0ke	where is the meta-map here?
04:07	sm0ke	oh its called attr-map?
04:08	sm0ke	^:private works with codox
04:09	amalloy	as does ^:no-doc, sm0ke, which i linked to
04:12	sm0ke	yes yes
04:12	sm0ke	(inc amalloy)
04:12	lazybot	⇒ 94
04:12	sm0ke	whoa!
04:12	sm0ke	thats a lot
04:16	kaw_	LSD ls -ltra
04:16	kaw_	Oops, sorry
04:32	derek_c	does anyone know how to give ring a callback on exit?
04:32	derek_c	so I want some code to be run when the web application terminate
04:32	derek_c	*terminates(
04:34	beamso	https://github.com/weavejester/lein-ring#general-options (:destroy)
04:38	derek_c	beamso: thanks!
04:58	sveri	Hi, I am using datomic and I wonder if its common do use some uniqe id's for datoms like you do in relational databases? I have not seen an example for this so far
05:30	oskarth	What's a good pattern to remove the mental overhead of remembering if a resource should be called as function or not? For example (def users-url "foobar.url") and (defn user-url [id] (str "users-url" id)) I could do (defn users-url [] ...) but that feels silly, and putting (str "users-url" id) everywhere seems prone to mistakes. What does a _simple_ solution
05:30	oskarth	look like?
05:31	oskarth	*(str users-url "/" id)
05:41	oskarth	Slighly silly question but it feels like must be a simple solution which doesn't involve overly long names like "make-user-url"
05:43	ucb	oskarth: if you're taking votes, I'd +1 (defn user-url [id] ...)
05:43	ucb	(without knowing anything else about your problem)
05:43	oskarth	ucb: what would you do with users-url then? def or defn?
05:44	oskarth	cause it "should" be a def, but if it is at least I make the mistake of calling it as (user-url) since it has the same shape as (users-url id)
05:45	oskarth	not a hard problem but feels like one that shouldn't exist at all if you are doing it right
05:46	oskarth	(cause someone else might be doing a (let [user-url (str users-url "/" id)]...)
05:47	ucb	sure
05:47	ucb	so, is users-url a constant or could that change?
05:47	oskarth	constant
05:47	ucb	if the latter, it's common practise to name it users-url
05:47	ucb	which already gives it meaning
05:47	ucb	right
05:47	oskarth	yeah definitely
05:47	ucb	what'll be the most common usage?
05:48	ucb	wouldn't (defn user-url [id] ...) mas users-url anyway?
05:48	ucb	mask*
05:48	oskarth	nope
05:48	oskarth	in the case of an API both would be used
05:48	ucb	sorry, not mask, but rather use users-url internally, implying users-url is private anyway
05:49	ucb	in danger of sounding silly, if you want consistency, then make (defn users-url [] "...")
05:49	oskarth	yeah I agree that's one one solution to enforce consistency, but as you say it's a bit silly to write (users-url) for a string
05:50	ucb	again, I don't have a good answer, but is users-url is bound via config
05:50	ucb	then an alternative is to have (defn users-url [config] ...)
05:50	ucb	where config could be a map, etc.
05:51	oskarth	in this case it would just be the same string all the time
05:51	oskarth	I guess it could be hidden away in one or two functions with (get-user [...]) since that's the actual resource, and then let it be a bit ugly there
05:52	ucb	sure
05:52	ucb	sounds like users-url is an internal detail anyway
05:52	oskarth	bikeshedding problem perhaps, but feels like it should be a solved problem with good patterns, not something you spend mental cycles on
05:52	oskarth	just tired of getting those types of errors
06:18	ssqq	In a function call, when I use let create a lexical binding, how to redefine its value?
06:19	nightfly	use a reference type
06:24	ssqq	nightfly: you means? (defn f [] (let [v (ref "s")] (dosync (ref-set v "v")))
06:25	llasram	ssqq: More typically, you just don't do that, or use e.g. recursion to get the effect of rebinding w/o actual mutability
06:25	llasram	ssqq: What in particular are you trying to achieve?
06:25	nightfly	or that :p
06:27	ssqq	llasram: I want a char cache in a function call. I use perl before.
06:27	llasram	What is a "char cache"?
06:28	ssqq	llasram: In a loop of char-list, push char to a vector one by one.
06:29	llasram	Yeah, you want the pattern of updating by recursion
06:30	llasram	Which is the essential nature of `reduce`: ##(reduce conj [] "string")
06:30	lazybot	⇒ [\s \t \r \i \n \g]
06:31	llasram	Or manually: ##(loop [v [], s (seq "string")] (if-not s v (recur (conj v (first s)) (next s))))
06:31	lazybot	⇒ [\s \t \r \i \n \g]
06:32	ssqq	llasrm: but have many branch when met a char. I want write a reader of clojure.
06:32	llasram	Like https://github.com/clojure/tools.reader ?
06:34	ssqq	llasram: yes, I need learn this project. thanks very much.
06:34	llasram	np
06:40	sveri	hi, i have a datomic schema with an instant attribute, now, when I initialize my database I load some data from an edn file, how would I add a valid datetime for that instant attribute? I cannot find an example for this
06:49	sm0ke	whats is the simplest way to have a f applied to a initial value, then again apply to the result, and return a lazy seq
06:56	gfredericks	,(doc iterate)
06:56	clojurebot	"([f x]); Returns a lazy sequence of x, (f x), (f (f x)) etc. f must be free of side-effects"
06:58	perses	hello
06:58	perses	what is the best way to create a graph and then serialize it to a binary?
06:58	noidi	12:44] < ucb> if the latter, it's common practise to name it users-url
06:58	perses	is there a native support for a graph in clojure?
06:58	noidi	I'm sorry but that's just wrong
06:59	noidi	the "earmuffs", as they're called, signify that the var is dynamically bound
06:59	ucb	noidi: isn't it the case that is a var is dynamically ... yeah
06:59	noidi	it has nothing to do with constancy
06:59	ucb	sure, apologies, words don't come out easy early in the morning :)
07:02	noidi	and apparently reading doesn't come easily to me either, I misread you and thought you suggested using the earmuffs for constants, so apologies to you as well :)
07:03	ucb	oh, heh, no :)
07:04	sm0ke	gfredericks: thanks
07:04	sm0ke	(inc gfredericks)
07:04	lazybot	⇒ 52
07:06	noidi	oskarth, I think the right way to solve that problem is with a type system. In core.typed, your examples would have the types String and [String -> String].
07:07	oskarth	noidi: I think you might be right. I'm actually looking into it right now :)
07:07	oskarth	(not for that specific problem, just in general)
07:10	noidi	I don't think it's quite polished enough to be recommended for general use (yet!), but it's already usable and useful if you don't mind reporting bugs and working around them :)
07:12	jonathanj	does it bother anyone else that (inc foo) shouldn't actually do anything permanent? poetic license? :P
07:12	vijaykiran	perses: Graph as in graph image ?
07:13	jonathanj	(i guess (swap! foo (inc foo))) is a bit of a mouthful?)
07:13	perses	vijaykiran: Graph: set of nodes + set of edges
07:13	noidi	ambrosebs keeps improving core.typed an impressive rate, so I'm sure it's only a matter of time until I'll feel comfortable recommending it without any disclaimers
07:14	noidi	(given the enormous size of the task that might take a couple of years, though)
07:15	gfredericks	jonathanj: it'd be (swap! foo inc)
07:16	jonathanj	gfredericks: err, right!
07:17	jonathanj	user=> (def foo 0)
07:17	jonathanj	user=> (swap! foo inc)
07:17	jonathanj	ClassCastException java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Atom clojure.core/swap! (core.clj:2160)
07:17	Bronsa	jonathanj: foo needs to be an atom (def foo (atom 0))
07:17	pjstadig	jonathanj: you'd have to either (def foo (atom 0)) or (alter-var-root #'foo inc)
07:17	gfredericks	,(def next-num (partial swap! (atom 0) inc))
07:17	clojurebot	#'sandbox/next-num
07:18	gfredericks	,(next-num)
07:18	clojurebot	1
07:18	gfredericks	,[(next-num) (next-num) (next-num)]
07:18	clojurebot	[2 3 4]
07:18	jonathanj	ah
07:18	pjstadig	,(take 50 (repeatedly next-num))
07:18	clojurebot	(5 6 7 8 9 ...)
07:18	perses	is there anybody here have used loom graph lib?
07:19	gfredericks	,(next-num)
07:19	clojurebot	12
07:19	gfredericks	pjstadig: ^ ha
07:19	jonathanj	haha
07:19	pjstadig	grr
07:19	gfredericks	,(->> (repeatedly 10000 next-num) (reduce +))
07:19	clojurebot	50125000
07:19	gfredericks	,(next-num)
07:19	clojurebot	10013
07:20	jonathanj	so i guess next-num is like Python's itertools.count, is this not defined in clojure somewhere already?
07:22	jonathanj	("count" is a different thing and i'm out of names to try searching for)
07:27	ambrosebs	Bronsa: FYI you might have missed Aaron's latest comment on your GSoC proposal
07:27	Bronsa	uh, I sure did. I'm going to check now, thanks
07:35	gfredericks	jonathanj: only similar thing is gensym I think
07:35	gfredericks	,(gensym)
07:35	clojurebot	G__27
07:35	gfredericks	,(last (repeatedly 930848 gensym))
07:35	clojurebot	G__930899
07:35	gfredericks	,(gensym)
07:35	clojurebot	G__930924
07:35	llasram	Well, or `range`
07:36	jonathanj	range, duh. i forgot to look for that one
07:36	llasram	Modulo the fact that Clojure doesn't do the stateful-iterator thing
07:36	jonathanj	llasram: yeah, obviously it doesn't map quite the same way
07:36	jonathanj	i was just curious
07:51	gfredericks	oh I thought statefulness was the essense of the question
07:51	gfredericks	global statefulness in particular
08:01	wunki	I found out that a multimethod is only found if I require the namespace where it is defined in my main. Is this correct?
08:03	gfredericks	wunki: it's the same as for any var
08:03	gfredericks	the multimethod lives wherever the `defmulti` is
08:04	wunki	gfredericks: I'm defining a multimethod in a namespace which is never referenced from the `:main`, so it's also not found
08:05	wunki	gfredericks: the defmulti is defined in an external library
08:05	gfredericks	right; requiring things is important, not just for multimethods
08:06	wunki	gfredericks: is there a way to require a multimethod?
08:06	wunki	gfredericks: or should I just use `:refer :all`
08:10	llasram	For the multimethod itself just `require` the namespace and refer to it like any other var.
08:10	llasram	For implementations, you just need to `require` the implementing namespace(s)
08:10	llasram	(no special details on the `require`, that is -- any `require`ing will do)
08:11	llasram	wunki: Rule of thumb: if you need to `:refer :all`, you've done something wrong
08:11	wunki	llasram: thanks, will keep it in mind
08:11	wunki	llasram: currently only using `:refer :all` in my tests
08:12	llasram	Cool. That's perfectly reasonable
08:30	ambrosebs	Bronsa: is it a good idea to assume tools.analyzer will preserve arguments to `do`, especially constants?
08:33	Bronsa	ambrosebs: hm, at the moment it does. In the future it will have a pass to remove no-ops like constants in statement position but that's going to be in a pass
08:33	Bronsa	so you can always remove that pass if you need that guarantee
08:34	ambrosebs	Bronsa: ok. `do` statements seem like a good place to jam annotations since we can preserve tag inference
08:34	ambrosebs	(tc-ignore foo) => (do ::tc-ignore foo)
08:35	Bronsa	I see. Yeah, you should have no problems with that right now
08:36	Bronsa	ambrosebs: I'll let you know if/when this might change, but again, you'll always have the option to preserve the original behaviour
08:36	ambrosebs	Bronsa: thanks. Also folding nested `do`s would break my approach.
08:36	Bronsa	ambrosebs: uhm that might be a problem I think
08:36	dottedmag	Are there alternatives to Datomic? That is, other "accretion-based" DBs.
08:37	Bronsa	ambrosebs: nested top level `do`s need to be folded to address the Gilardi Scenario
08:38	Bronsa	ambrosebs: nevermind, that's not done in the analyzer
08:38	tbaldridge	dottedmag: not that I'm aware of, at least not any that have immutability + datom based storage + datalog + data locality
08:39	ambrosebs	Bronsa: I can deal with that possibility, good to know.
08:39	Bronsa	ambrosebs: you should be good to go on that. IIRC the only place where t.a removes some forms is (try foo) => foo which I believe Compiler.java does too
08:39	dottedmag	tbaldridge: Thanks, that's what I expected as well.
08:51	mdrogalis	dottedmag: My experience has been that you have to treat the data store as accretion-only yourself.
08:51	mdrogalis	Nathan Marz's book that's coming out covers it pretty well, IMO
09:02	arrdem	ambrosebs: +1 for supporting symbol aliases
09:10	ambrosebs	arrdem: was it you talking about the > suffix a few days ago?
09:35	jonathanj	how would i write (re-find #"[^0-9]+" "ZAR123.45") without regexes?
09:36	jonathanj	(apply str (take-while-not digit? s)) is what i had in mind
09:37	jonathanj	but i'm guessing a bunch of these don't exist
09:40	`szx	,(defn digit? [c] (Character/isDigit c))
09:40	clojurebot	#'sandbox/digit?
09:41	`szx	,(apply str (take-while digit? "123abc"))
09:41	clojurebot	"123"
09:41	`szx	oh wait you want the other way around
09:43	`szx	,(apply str (take-while (complement digit?) "ZAR123.45"))
09:43	clojurebot	"ZAR"
09:45	jonathanj	complement
09:45	jonathanj	i can never remember that damn name
09:45	jonathanj	`szx: thank you
09:46	jonathanj	hrm
09:46	jonathanj	Character/isDigit is not defined in my environment
09:48	TimMc	&(apply str (remove #(Character/isDigit %) "४२123"))
09:48	lazybot	⇒ ""
09:49	jonathanj	user=> Character/isDigit
09:49	jonathanj	CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to find static field: isDigit in class java.lang.Character, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)
09:49	jonathanj	:/
09:49	TimMc	jonathanj: It's a static method, not a function.
09:49	TimMc	You can call it, but you can't evaluate it.
09:50	TimMc	s/static // more generally
09:50	jonathanj	user=> (Character/isDigit "a")
09:50	jonathanj	IllegalArgumentException No matching method found: isDigit clojure.lang.Reflector.invokeMatchingMethod (Reflector.java:80)
09:50	TimMc	Oh, how old is your Java?
09:51	jonathanj	i have no idea how to find that out
09:51	jonathanj	java version "1.7.0_45"
09:51	jonathanj	Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 1.7.0_45-b18)
09:51	jonathanj	Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM (build 24.45-b08, mixed mode)
09:51	TimMc	Oh, type issue.
09:51	TimMc	&(Character/isDigit \a)
09:51	lazybot	⇒ false
09:51	TimMc	Pass it a character, not a string. :-)
09:52	jonathanj	hur
09:52	jonathanj	TimMc: so what's going on with your example there? an empty result seems broken
10:11	arrdem	ambrosebs: neg
10:12	ambrosebs	arrdem: np
10:12	TimMc	jonathanj: Those ara Devanagari digits. :-)
10:12	TimMc	http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/96e/index.htm
10:12	ambrosebs	arrdem: cheers for the input
10:12	arrdem	ambrosebs: usability++
10:12	jonathanj	TimMc: aha!
10:13	TimMc	&(.getPort (.toURL (java.net.URI. "http://google.com:६/")))
10:13	lazybot	⇒ 6
10:14	TimMc	^ Java mistakenly uses a broad definition of "digit" for some parsers.
10:14	ambrosebs	arrdem: just one of those things I played it safe on
10:15	arrdem	ambrosebs: I really appreciate the desire to make sure you get it correct, but I think there's a very reasonable element of "you'd expect it to work" at play with :require :as annotations.
10:16	arrdem	hence my support therefor... the compiler should already be issuing warnings if you have an :as conflict.
10:17	ambrosebs	arrdem: yes I'll implement it. My reasoning for the decision didn't make sense in hindsight.
10:17	arrdem	ambrosebs: <3
10:17	ambrosebs	glad I'm adding alias support (non-breaking) than removing it :)
10:24	afgdf	in the /bin/repl (datomic) i cannot use the arrow keys, i get '^[[A'. D left, C right, , A up, B down. Anyone knows how i solve that?
10:34	btcNeverSleeps	I've got an issue and can't really produce a minimal test case so I'm asking for help here in case anyone had the same problem... I've got one test .clj file (using clojure.test) which fails when I try "cider-eval-buffer".
10:34	btcNeverSleeps	However that same test .clj file works fine from "lein test"
10:34	ToBeReplaced	btcNeverSleeps: persists after you restart cider?
10:34	btcNeverSleeps	ToBeReplaced: yup
10:35	btcNeverSleeps	ToBeReplaced: persists after I restart Emacs
10:35	btcNeverSleeps	however...
10:35	btcNeverSleeps	If I switch to the other .clj file (which I :require / :refer all from the test file) and do cider-eval-buffer, then back to the test .clj file then cider-eval-buffer now works from Emacs too
10:36	ToBeReplaced	btcNeverSleeps: sounds like a source path problem; are you using multiple profiles with leiningen?
10:37	btcNeverSleeps	I don't think so... No too sure what multiple profiles are. It's a regular lein project. I mostly call "lein test" and, once in a while, "lein run". The project directories were created using lein.
10:37	btcNeverSleeps	could it be some _ / - issue?
10:39	btcNeverSleeps	erf...
10:40	btcNeverSleeps	cannot easily do more testing because I'm under Emacs and I'm using erc to do IRC (silly me)
10:40	arrdem	damnit... I shoulda parsed lazybot's logs..
10:41	btcNeverSleeps	oh well, I take it I'll just cider-eval-buffer the other buffer(s) manually as of now. And then update everything (lein, cider, etc.) to the latest versions.
10:42	ToBeReplaced	btcNeverSleeps: absolutely could be a _/- issue... not sure what should be done to better document that; seems a lot of people stumble on it
10:43	btcNeverSleeps	I renamed the file, I'll restart Emacs and come back in the channel to tell if it works or not
10:43	justin_smith	load failure should check for - in the name and then add an extra output about munging
10:43	justin_smith	why would that require an emacs restart?
10:46	btcNeverSleeps	hmm still not working: it's still saying "Unable to resolve symbol: ... in this context" when I try to cider-eval-buffer that test .clj file even though the require is there and even though from "lein test" things work fine. Even though I removed the "-" from my test .clj filename / namespace. Not that much of a big deal: it's just a minor annoyance.
10:47	justin_smith	what about lein check?
10:48	sveri	hi, I am getting this instant type back from datomic: #inst "2014-12-01T00:00:00.000-00:00" and want to parse that in clojure script, how would I do that?
10:48	justin_smith	can't clojurescript just read that? it should
10:49	arrdem	you shouldn't have to read that... and besides #inst is a standard EDN reader form.
10:49	justin_smith	right, if you can read at all, that should be parsed no problem
10:49	guest234235	any advice on best way to grab (or examples) of Om (or vanilla cljs) fetching remote JSON data?
10:49	btcNeverSleeps	I just tried "lein check": throws an Exception for that one .clj file that my test doesn't want to :require : "java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.stacktrace"
10:50	sveri	arrdem: so I should have to convert it to a string before passing it to cljs?
10:50	justin_smith	btcNeverSleeps: that's a namespace, are you referring to it in some odd way?
10:51	btcNeverSleeps	justin_smith: let me check ^ ^
10:51	justin_smith	you should be able to require it no trouble, but if you accidentally referred to it unquoted you may see that error
10:51	btcNeverSleeps	it's on this line in my source file: (clojure.stacktrace/print-stack-trace t)
10:51	btcNeverSleeps
10:52	justin_smith	do you require the ns? that's probably the issue
10:52	btcNeverSleeps	oh I see
10:52	btcNeverSleeps	but why is it an issue? And why is "lein test" not chocking on it?
10:52	sveri	guest234235: as far as I can tell OM uses an app-state cljs variable, so all you have to do is replace that app-state contents with your JSON returned data
10:52	justin_smith	lein test runs tests, if you define them and put them under a test/ dir
10:53	justin_smith	lein check, on the other hand, loads every clojure file it finds, and reports any errors it sees
10:53	justin_smith	so lein test will never try to load an ns that is not required by a test ns
10:53	btcNeverSleeps	gotcha
10:54	btcNeverSleeps	I didn't know about "lein test" btw: thanks for the (great) info : )
10:54	guest234235	sveri: yep. was looking at using cljs-http to do a standard GET request; though that returns an async channel ... still learning ..
10:54	sveri	guest234235: I guess we all are :-)
10:55	guest234235	wondering if there's any example apps or repos that have already 'solved' this seemingly common thing: "get remote data; update display accordingly"
10:55	guest234235	in elegant, succint cljs, of course ;-)
10:56	justin_smith	guest234235: bird's eye view: do an ajax call, the callback provided to the ajax call should update the data structure that om renders when it gets its result
10:56	justin_smith	this will make om re-render, et voila
10:57	justin_smith	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8567114/how-to-make-an-ajax-call-without-jquery
10:58	`szx	guest234235: have you read the advanced tutorial? https://github.com/swannodette/om/wiki/Intermediate-Tutorial
10:58	`szx	err, intermediate
11:01	guest234235	yeah. think https://github.com/yogthos/cljs-ajax is going to make things easier.
11:17	te	I am using clojure.data.csv. I have tuples like: ["foo", 1, "baz"]. I want to /append/ to a CSV file and not just write it wholesale.
11:17	te	Suggestions?
11:18	justin_smith	te: appending is a fiction, you write the previous contents, followed by new ones
11:19	seangrove	justin_smith offers new-comers no choice between red and blue pills
11:19	arrdem	justin_smith: really?
11:19	te	justin_smith: heh, seriously?
11:19	arrdem	justin_smith sits on a throne of lies...
11:19	justin_smith	arrdem: well some operating systems fake it :)
11:19	seangrove	clojurebot: justin_smith sits on a throne of lies
11:19	clojurebot	I don't understand.
11:19	arrdem	justin_smith: some operating systems aren't completely retarded :D
11:19	seangrove	clojurebot: justin_smith is sits on a throne of lies
11:19	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
11:20	seangrove	~justin_smith
11:20	clojurebot	justin_smith is sits on a throne of lies
11:20	arrdem	seangrove: lemme
11:20	seangrove	Grammar challenges aside, I like it
11:20	arrdem	clojurebot: justin_smith is <reply> justin_smith sits on a throne of lies
11:20	arrdem	~justin_smith
11:20	arrdem	goddamnit clojurebot.
11:20	seangrove	Hahaha
11:20	te	so, assuming that's true justin_smith -- still, help me out here
11:20	arrdem	seangrove: would you do the honors?
11:20	arrdem	since the bots hate me..
11:20	seangrove	~justin_smith
11:20	clojurebot	justin_smith is sits on a throne of lies
11:21	te	I'm assuming I need something like (io/writer "foobar.csv" :append true)
11:21	te	but i dont know if I can use csv/write-csv if that's the case
11:21	seangrove	clojurebot: justin_smith is <reply> justin_smith sits on a throne of lies
11:21	clojurebot	Alles klar
11:21	seangrove	~justin_smith
11:21	clojurebot	justin_smith sits on a throne of lies
11:21	cowinfantry	there we go
11:21	seangrove	justin_smith: That was a lot of work, hope you appreciate it
11:21	seangrove	arrdem: How'd you upset the bots?
11:21	arrdem	seangrove: I have no idea...
11:22	te	so, anyway -- anyone want to offer help on this or just configure bots? ;)
11:22	arrdem	te: we're just here to play with the bots man :P
11:22	te	heh, fair enough
11:22	seangrove	te: Haven't used data.csv, but it seems straightforward enough
11:22	arrdem	te: you could probably use Java interop to open the file in append mode and then write the str of what you want to append...
11:22	seangrove	te: Presumably you have an atomic lock on the file, no one else is reading/writing?
11:23	seangrove	te: It looks like you just use csv/write-file and give it whatever you've previously read from the file appended with whatever you want to add
11:24	justin_smith	seangrove: which is exactly my throne of lies
11:24	te	seangrove: i was thinking about using agents
11:24	seangrove	justin_smith: That's where I got my explanation form
11:28	arrdem	Bronsa: ping
11:28	Bronsa	arrdem: pong
11:29	arrdem	Bronsa: know of any projects do to test coverage analysis on the basis of t.a trees?
11:29	Bronsa	nope
11:29	justin_smith	it looks like you can in fact create the io/writer you pass to clojure.data.csv/write-csv with the args :append true
11:29	arrdem	good. I have a first project then :D
11:29	justin_smith	(what the OS does with that is another question of course)
11:29	te	hmm okay
11:29	te	let me give this a try
11:30	Bronsa	arrdem: afaik currently the only projects that are using t.a in releases are core.typed and eastwood
11:30	Bronsa	arrdem: huh cool!
11:30	te	thanks justin_smith
11:30	te	and company
11:30	arrdem	a merry band...
11:39	guest234235	does cheshire compile to cljs ? or can it only be required in a clj namespace?
11:39	gtrak	guest234235: cheshire is a wrapper over jackson
11:39	gtrak	which is a java lib
11:39	dakrone	guest234235: no, cheshire uses Jackson which is a java library
11:39	Jabberz	the 'for' macro, is that idiomatic for doing transformation on lists, i.e. putting functions in :let, or are doing say, separate doseq's perferred?
11:40	justin_smith	Jabberz: for when you care about the result, doseq when you want to do something and return nil
11:40	Jabberz	justin_smith: cool, thanks
11:40	justin_smith	doseq has the some cartesian elaboration that for does
11:40	guest234235	dakrone: figured that was the case. best way to 'digest' and work with json in cljs namespace?
11:40	justin_smith	Jabberz: so it need not be nested
11:41	dakrone	guest234235: probably data.json then?
11:41	justin_smith	what about just using interop to turn the json into vanilla js data?
11:41	`szx	guest234235: you can just convert it to clojure data
11:41	justin_smith	and then do what `szx suggests next
11:43	guest234235	want to keep things simple. am a sucker for wrapper libraries that make anything easier, more terse.
11:43	justin_smith	guest234235: turning json into javascript data is very terse
11:43	stuartsierra	Use the G.Closure JSON parser; data.json doesn't have a ClojureScript version.
11:44	justin_smith	why not JSON.parse? that is part of the ecma standard
11:44	justin_smith	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4935632/how-to-parse-json-in-javascript
11:44	stuartsierra	Or that. I don't know.
11:45	mpenet	JSON.parse is the way to go, and there are shims for when it's missing
11:45	justin_smith	JSON.parse("{foo : bar}")
11:45	`szx	i would assume closure's JSON parser delegates to JSON.parse
11:45	justin_smith	it's that simple
11:45	guest234235	do GET request; returns JSON; need to parse and present.
11:45	gtrak	love that we can grab everything in closure piecemeal. It's massive.
11:45	dnolen_	guest234235: go w/ stuartsierra's suggestion if you need to target <= IE7
11:46	guest234235	targeting mobile.
11:47	justin_smith	ie <= 7 will not run on mobile (that you care about at least)
11:47	justin_smith	correcting myself: JSON.parse('{"foo" : "bar"}')
11:47	justin_smith	(the previous was invalid json)
11:54	guest234235	stuartsierra: really? no clojurescript version to parse json
11:54	stuartsierra	guest234235: It's not needed. Some browsers have it built in and G.Closure libs handle the rest.
11:54	justin_smith	guest234235: JSON is a javascript serialization format, it's silly to write your own javascript json parser
11:57	justin_smith	(js->clj (JSON/parse "{\"foo\" : \"bar\"}")) <- this gives you native clojure data
11:57	justin_smith	it's pretty succinct
11:58	gtrak	guest234235: a fully-clojure impl provides no benefits for most use-cases.
11:58	gtrak	I wonder the same about any lib that reimplements things that already exist..
11:59	guest234235	reimplements in a way that makes a given lib easier to work with.
11:59	gtrak	maybe once we get a fancy compiler, optimization might change things.
11:59	justin_smith	guest234235: explain to me what part of what I posted above is not easy?
11:59	guest234235	but yes, argument then is immediately, just improve that lib
12:00	justin_smith	it's a function call and a javascript method
12:00	gtrak	guest234235: or we can do idiomatic wrappers, but that's still dubious a lot of the time.
12:00	gtrak	depending on the complexity of the wrapped project
12:01	guest234235	true. I'm not here advocating crafting dubious, redundant libraries.
12:01	gtrak	If it's not a trivial interface, like the JSON parser, often I'll end up learning more than I would've to use java interop.
12:01	AimHere	You don't need to; those libraries will happen, regardless
12:01	guest234235	just need to grab some remote JSON data, serve it up on a page ;-)
12:02	gtrak	for instance, clj-http and related projects can get really hairy when you do something like client-auth.
12:02	gtrak	you end up learning more levels of abstraction b/c you're already committed to the idiomatic wrapper.
12:02	gtrak	so it kind of just pushes the cost around
12:03	gtrak	but clj-time I think is pretty nice to use, because it's more about surface area than depth.
12:03	guest234235	gtrak: yep. if the use-case is that "it just works" , then fine. costs offloaded.
12:03	AimHere	Most json is parsed by (read-string (replace foo #":" "")) anyways...
12:04	justin_smith	hah, fair enough
12:04	gtrak	AimHere: you're joking? haha.
12:04	justin_smith	in practice yeah that would mostly work I guess
12:04	AimHere	I might not be entirely serious, true ;)
12:05	gtrak	really, if we had better tooling, interop would be even easier.
12:06	gtrak	and wrappers kind of fill the gap for now
12:15	Vfe	How can I get an entire vector as an argument? for example. (defn func [ [my-vec] ] {:key [my-vec]}) (func [“item1” “item2” “item3”]) gives my-vec a vector of just “item1”.
12:16	Vfe	Is there some trick to the behavior I want?
12:16	rasmusto	,(let [[a b :as all] [1 2]] [a b all])
12:16	clojurebot	[1 2 [1 2]]
12:17	`szx	Vfe: you're destructuring the vector, is that what you wanted to do?
12:17	rasmusto	Vfe: hm, maybe I didn't fully understand the question. Do you want the vector destructuring?
12:17	`szx	otherwise (defn func [my-vec]] {:key my-vec}) will work just fine
12:17	`szx	ugh
12:17	`szx	(defn func [my-vec] {:key my-vec})
12:18	Vfe	No, I just want to take a vector in that will add that vector to a map
12:18	Vfe	If it’s destructing it that’s maybe where I’m confusing myself XD
12:18	`szx	,((fn [v] {:k v}) [1 2 3 4])
12:18	clojurebot	{:k [1 2 3 4]}
12:18	rasmusto	Vfe: ah, then do as `szx suggested, don't bother with the destructuring bit
12:18	justin_smith	the extra [] pair introduces destructuring
12:19	Vfe	Gah, you’re right. Thanks for the help. I blame lack of sleep, I should know this, hah
12:19	Vfe	Appreciate it guys :)
12:20	justin_smith	well, in some c-like language v[] may mean "v, which is a vector", so I could imagine guessing (wrongly) that [v] in an arg vector means the same thing.
12:20	justin_smith	I am probably overthinking that
12:21	`szx	probably :)
12:23	rasmusto	,(clojure.set/intersection) ; why not #{} ?
12:23	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.set>
12:24	justin_smith	the intersection of nothing :) sounds pretty zen
12:24	rasmusto	justin_smith: union has a 0-arity case
12:25	justin_smith	rasmusto: if we are basing this on mathematics, I think "everything in null" and "intersection of null" are very different questions
12:26	justin_smith	if on intuition, yeah, generalize all the things to zero args
12:27	rasmusto	justin_smith: I'm doing an (apply intersection some-seq-of-sets), where some-seq-of-sets might be empty, I guess I can just wrap the thing in a cond
12:27	justin_smith	yeah, that makes sense, we really should have zero argument arities of everything defined for that kind of thing
12:28	justin_smith	((fnil f #{}) sets) maybe?
12:28	rasmusto	justin_smith: yep, was just writing that :)
12:28	justin_smith	((fnil println "default") nil)
12:28	justin_smith	,((fnil println "default") nil)
12:28	clojurebot	default\n
12:29	justin_smith	,((fnil println "default") "provided")
12:29	clojurebot	provided\n
12:29	rasmusto	,((fnil count 'baz) ())
12:29	clojurebot	0
12:30	rasmusto	,((fnil count 'baz) nil)
12:30	clojurebot	#<UnsupportedOperationException java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: count not supported on this type: Symbol>
12:30	justin_smith	ok, you should call seq
12:30	justin_smith	,((fnil count "baz") (seq ()))
12:30	clojurebot	3
12:30	justin_smith	unless there is an fempty
12:31	jonathanj	i'm trying to remember what term Clojure uses to describe the structures it uses for efficiently handling things like subvectors
12:31	rasmusto	justin_smith: I was assuming that nil? would work on '(), probably good that it doesn't
12:31	justin_smith	somehow fempty sounds like something lewis carrol would invent
12:31	jonathanj	(efficiently in terms of memory use)
12:31	technomancy	structural sharing?
12:32	justin_smith	persistent data structures?
12:32	gtrak	jonathanj: persistent array-mapped hash tries
12:32	tim__	jonathanj: trie
12:33	jonathanj	thanks, all of those were helpful
12:33	rasmusto	justin_smith: oh, how should I get 'apply and (fnil intersection #{}) to behave, I won't have a nil argument if I apply that fn to nil :p
12:33	justin_smith	oh wait
12:34	justin_smith	(fnil (partial apply intersection))
12:34	justin_smith	(fnil (partial apply intersection) #{}) that is
12:34	rasmusto	justin_smith: hah, gotcha!
12:34	rasmusto	thanks :)
12:34	justin_smith	(fnil (partial apply intersection) [#{}]) final answer
12:36	justin_smith	(defn intersect' ([] #{}) ([& args] (apply set/intersection args))) ; simpler
12:37	te	/whois te
12:37	AimHere	Youis te!
12:37	te	:D
12:37	justin_smith	oh, I just found out who te is
12:37	te	<-devn on a different client
12:39	justin_smith	"*** lazybot is logged in as Raynes" I should use whois more often
12:39	te	justin_smith: im going to bug you again about visiting. have you gotten a chance to talk to anyone?
12:40	justin_smith	I'll bring it up again
12:42	martinklepsch	any clever suggestion beside threadpools to write/read tens of thousands of small files?
12:42	te	just read? any processing?
12:43	justin_smith	martinklepsch: if they are on one disk, doing it in parallel threads will be slower than reading them one at a time
12:43	justin_smith	thread per disk
12:44	justin_smith	because seek time
12:44	martinklepsch	te, read = xml parsing in that context
12:44	martinklepsch	justin_smith,ah thats interesting, also true for SSDs?
12:44	justin_smith	SSD has non-zero seek time
12:44	martinklepsch	I guess yes?
12:45	justin_smith	and reading files in parallel will not be faster than sequentially
12:45	justin_smith	and parsing xml is much faster than getting data from the disk
12:45	te	clojurebot: justin_smith?
12:45	clojurebot	justin_smith is sits on a throne of lies
12:45	justin_smith	hah
12:45	te	:)
12:45	rasmusto	heh
12:48	justin_smith	even ignoring seek time, most OS's will pre-cache, so things are faster if you go sequentially through files rather than in parallel
12:48	justin_smith	unless you are doing something CPU heavy, xml parsing is not CPU heavy
12:52	Jabberz	is there a way to get the index of the entry inside a for/:let ?
12:53	llasram	,(for [[i x] (map-indexed vector [:a :b :c])] {:value x, :index i})
12:53	clojurebot	({:value :a, :index 0} {:value :b, :index 1} {:value :c, :index 2})
12:53	amalloy	Jabberz: no; sometimes that notion isn't even well-defined, eg for a nested-loop. but you can use map-indexed at the level you're interested in
12:53	rasmusto	Jabberz: ##(for [[i x] (map-indexed vector [:a :b :c])] [i x])
12:53	lazybot	⇒ ([0 :a] [1 :b] [2 :c])
12:54	llasram	(inc amalloy)
12:54	lazybot	⇒ 95
12:54	justin_smith	man, and I was this close to saying map-indexed too :)
12:54	Jabberz	ah, thanks
12:54	llasram	Always thinking about the problem slightly deeper than the rest of us
12:54	amalloy	justin_smith: too slow, bro
12:54	justin_smith	heh
12:55	rasmusto	ah, thoughts too deep for me o;
12:56	martinklepsch	justin_smith, I'm essentially splitting a large file into smaller string chunks, save them, parse them, delete them
12:56	martinklepsch	justin_smith it's a workaround for not being able to hand strings with paths to DTDs to xml/parse
12:56	justin_smith	martinklepsch: if it is all one file system, I don't think multiple threads will gain you much, given the linearity of storage devices
12:57	justin_smith	which is why I suggested a thread per disk
12:58	martinklepsch	justin_smith, I got that... I just wonder if there are any other ways I could do it. But again this is probably more related to xml parsing
12:58	Bronsa	ambrosebs: ping
12:58	ambrosebs	Bronsa: hi
12:59	amalloy	justin_smith: you could use threads a bit. like, read sequentially from the disk in one thread, putting jobs onto a queue, and have a threadpool to process items from the queue. only matters if processing is slower than disk read, of course, but that's the only case when anything at all matters
12:59	justin_smith	martinklepsch: you don't need to write them if you were going to delete anyway
12:59	justin_smith	martinklepsch: just make an in-memory reading source (ByteArrayInputStream)
13:00	justin_smith	the disk bounce is pointless
13:00	justin_smith	amalloy: yeah, I tried to say that above, but probably much less clearly (when I mentioned the issue of CPU bound processes)
13:01	justin_smith	martinklepsch: see first example here http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.xml/parse
13:01	martinklepsch	justin_smith, theoretically, but xml/parse takes either File, InputStream or a String naming a URI.
13:01	Bronsa	ambrosebs: I think I mentioned this to you some time ago, but I've been thinking about putting Symbols rather than Classes on the nodes, would this be a problem for core.typed?
13:01	amalloy	martinklepsch: that's why he said a ByteArrayInputStream
13:01	technomancy	bbloom: were you the one bugging me about tail calls in my forth instead of loops?
13:01	bbloom	technomancy: yup
13:01	justin_smith	martinklepsch: right, you can make an input stream out of a string, as shown there
13:01	bbloom	technomancy: did you make the switch? :-)
13:01	amalloy	technomancy: who else, eh?
13:02	Bronsa	ambrosebs: not going to do it anytime soon b/c it's a bit tricky to handle reify/deftype but if I figure out an easy way to do it it should be a performance win
13:02	technomancy	bbloom: no, but I just read an interview with moore about how he regrets loops in forth and how he got rid of them in his new dialect in favour of recur
13:02	technomancy	http://www.ultratechnology.com/1xforth.htm
13:02	bbloom	technomancy: yup. it's not really recur tho. it's basically just "rewrite the previous word from a call in to a jump"
13:02	martinklepsch	justin_smith, amalloy, the issue is that the xml to parse contains <xml version ... > a few thousand times and this obviously breaks xml/[arse
13:03	bbloom	technomancy: operating at the machine level, of course
13:03	ambrosebs	Bronsa: which nodes?
13:03	justin_smith	martinklepsch: requesting permission to use xml/arse in future jocularity
13:03	justin_smith	martinklepsch: that's why you split the string, make streams of the parts, then parse those, right?
13:03	Bronsa	ambrosebs: everywhere I now store a Class, that would be replaced by a Symbol. e.g the :class field on :static-call etc
13:03	technomancy	my loop implementation is pretty terrible; it requires a bunch of nasty primitive stuff
13:04	technomancy	I should probably get rid of it
13:04	amalloy	aside: am i the only one who thinks it's silly that clojure.java.io/reader interprets a string as a url, instead of creating a StringReader? like, we have java.net.URI and java.io.File to disambiguate, but if you want to treat the string as a source itself you just can't use c.j.io/reader at all
13:04	justin_smith	(inc amalloy)
13:04	lazybot	⇒ 96
13:04	justin_smith	yeah, that has bugged me too
13:04	technomancy	haha "It would of course not be convenient to nest loops but nested loops are a very dicey concept anyway."
13:04	ambrosebs	Bronsa: ok, it'll probably blow up some preconditions.
13:04	bbloom	technomancy: heh, indeed. he's a crazy man
13:04	technomancy	amalloy: oinc
13:05	ambrosebs	Bronsa: which is fine.
13:05	amalloy	i just had an idea: i'll catch up to technomancy's karma by expression non-controversial opinions as if they were novel
13:05	justin_smith	hah
13:05	bbloom	technomancy: the other nice thing about implement ; as jump means you can do early exits of words & transfer of control
13:05	arrdem	amalloy: good luck with that...
13:06	Bronsa	ambrosebs: cool. I'll let you know if/when I make that change. Not anytime soon btw
13:06	llasram	(inc amalloy)
13:06	lazybot	⇒ 97
13:06	martinklepsch	justin_smith, I think I've tried that before and then the parsing failed because xml/parse couldn't find the DTDs etc, maybe I need to try again ;)
13:06	technomancy	bbloom: I'm kinda biased against early exits because of FP, but this stuff is unapologetically imperative, so ...
13:06	technomancy	I should probably get over that
13:06	bbloom	technomancy: yeah, you're writing the exact opposite of FP right now
13:06	justin_smith	martinklepsch: you may need to do more elaborate massaging before the arsing stage
13:06	bbloom	technomancy: which is a good thing in such a context
13:06	technomancy	bbloom: but ; as anything other than "definition over" seems to be specific to colorforth afaict?
13:06	bbloom	technomancy: turns out that a lot of the things you thought were no-nos from your C days turn out to be pretty damn reasonable in forth
13:06	ambrosebs	Bronsa: great
13:07	technomancy	bbloom: I didn't have C days
13:07	bbloom	technomancy: it's basically any "machine forth" which is just moore & friend's idea for a very simple minimal forth
13:07	martinklepsch	justin_smith, yeah, potentially prepending directory names before files and that type of stuff
13:07	justin_smith	martinklepsch: I just realized how inappropriate that sounded, no harrassment intended
13:07	amalloy	technomancy: apologetically imperative would be like..."look i'm really sorry, but i need you to increment the variable i. yes, i know you liked it as five, but we really need six right now, and you need to work with the team"
13:07	bbloom	technomancy: ok fine, your emacs lisp days
13:07	technomancy	well, more like my C days are happening now, solely in order to let me write forth
13:07	bbloom	amalloy: nice.
13:07	martinklepsch	justin_smith, all good
13:07	arrdem	(inc justin_smith)
13:07	lazybot	⇒ 33
13:07	bbloom	technomancy: haha
13:08	technomancy	amalloy: hehe; totally
13:08	bbloom	technomancy: it's fun when you have such a small simple core. it's almost hard to resist tweaking it endlessly
13:08	ambrosebs	Bronsa: you should be able to edit your proposal
13:08	arrdem	technomancy: yeah... this penultimate yak shave of yours is seeming more and more like a decent into madnes.s..
13:08	bbloom	technomancy: like w/ eclj now, the semantics of clojure are expressed so sussinctly that i can clearly see every flaw b/c it's wherever an 'if occurs lol
13:08	technomancy	amalloy: "don't be all X is five, if five is what you mean. If five is on your mind then baby just come clean"
13:09	technomancy	http://achewood.com/index.php?date=05052003
13:09	technomancy	arrdem: I am not ruling it out
13:09	Bronsa	ambrosebs: oh, huh, didn't notice that. I guess I'll just copy paste the comment in a "Milestones" section of the proposal, for consistency, then
13:10	ambrosebs	Bronsa: Aaron unlocked it but forgot to tell you
13:10	arrdem	technomancy: it's ok tho, you can alway blame it on the atreus curse
13:10	technomancy	arrdem: hopefully this time no blood is spilled
13:11	arrdem	technomancy: lets hope so... I'd like to see you live to use that keyboard :P
13:12	Bronsa	ambrosebs: ah ok, done
13:12	ambrosebs	Bronsa: thanks
13:18	aciniglio	is there a way to memoize a multimethod?
13:18	amalloy	aciniglio: wrap it in a function?
13:18	arrdem	*memoized function
13:18	aciniglio	amalloy: just the defmethod? or the whole block?
13:19	amalloy	if you want to memoize every implementation, then create a function that calls the multimethod, and memoize that
13:19	arrdem	and be sure to recur through it.
13:19	amalloy	if you want to memoize just one implementation, then define its method to call a function, and memoize that function
13:19	amalloy	arrdem: meh. you might or might not want to memoize recursive calls
13:20	aciniglio	yeah, that makes sense
13:20	aciniglio	thanks
13:20	justin_smith	arrdem: so you mean use explicit self calls instead of recur?
13:20	arrdem	justin_smith: use explicit calls to the memoizing wrapper rather than recur
13:20	arrdem	halves your effective stack size tho :c
13:20	justin_smith	arrdem: cool, I can see how that would make sense for some reducing algorithms
13:21	technomancy	amalloy: can't you alter-var-root with a defmulti?
13:21	amalloy	uhhhh
13:21	amalloy	i would be super-worried about doing that. maybe
13:21	justin_smith	arrdem: maybe memoizing some trampolined functions would be cleaner?
13:21	amalloy	probably not though, i would think
13:21	technomancy	I don't think you need an in-between function
13:22	justin_smith	technomancy: so you are saying you would replace the multi with its memoization with alter-var-root
13:23	Bronsa	I recently discovered that multimethods heavy code is a pain in the ass to profile
13:23	amalloy	technomancy: yeah, as i expected, you can alter-var-root it, but if you do you can't add new defmethods
13:23	Bronsa	It really doesn't help to know that you spend 88% on MultiFn.invoke
13:24	arrdem	ew...
13:24	amalloy	Bronsa: what profiler are you using? surely you can check self-time instead of total-time, or tell it to ignore time spent in MultiFn.invoke
13:24	technomancy	amalloy: true
13:24	tbaldridge	amalloy: yeah don't redef, instead define a multimethod called -foo and then name the memoized version foo. That way you can call the right one depending on what you want.
13:24	amalloy	tbaldridge: yes, that was my advice, though i didn't weigh in on naming
13:25	tbaldridge	amalloy: I don't think each method gets named sanely though either.
13:25	justin_smith	amalloy: but then the situation where you want to find out where your bottleneck is, and it may or may not be the multimethod
13:25	tbaldridge	The compiler doesn't emit (foo-bar...) when you (defmethod foo :bar)
13:26	amalloy	i'd call it foo and foom, because how often do you get to write source code as onomatopoeic explosions?
13:27	amalloy	that's a good point, tbaldridge. i guess you'd have to do something pretty gross make the profiler aware of what methods are taking the time. like, have each just delegate to a function, or something. yuck
13:28	tbaldridge	yeah, but I sonder if cursive integrates enough with intelij that YourKit would give good insight into this.
13:28	tbaldridge	*wonder
13:31	hiredman	amalloy: we have this thing in our code at work call the spock-tock-lock, and sometimes things block on the spock-tock-lock, it makes for greating standups
13:32	justin_smith	hah
13:32	rasmusto	hm, if I bind some stuff with :or, it doesn't get put into the :as binding thing?
13:33	amalloy	rasmusto: no. :as refers to exactly the incoming object
13:33	rasmusto	amalloy: okay, thanks.
13:34	justin_smith	,((fn [{a :a :or {a 0} :as m}] [m a]) {})
13:34	clojurebot	[{} 0]
13:34	rasmusto	my code is getting a bit dangerous with these optional arguments + defaults :s
13:34	justin_smith	rasmusto: instead of :or you can do a merge on the input, and then destructure
13:35	justin_smith	(fn [m] (let [m (merge default m) {a :a} m] ...))
13:35	rasmusto	justin_smith: I like that approach, thanks again
13:35	justin_smith	np!
13:35	S3thc0n	I stumbled over Haskell and noticed it is 'missing' Lisp's macros. After some pondering I wonder: For which constructs are they actually >needed< (whose functionality is not already built into a hypothetical rather extensive language)? Most examples I have seen are pretty basic, and everything I tried to come up with ends being just a function. (Not that I doubt it, but I wish to know.)
13:36	amalloy	or provide a more spartan API, and make your clients pass the optional arguments anyway. if they don't, you can (throw (IllegalArgumentException. "This is SPARTA!"))
13:36	TEttinger	haskell calls its metaprogramming "templates" IIRC
13:36	technomancy	S3thc0n: using macros to delay evaluation isn't necessary in a lazy language
13:36	amalloy	TEttinger: like lispers, i think haskellers call their metaprogramming "programming"
13:36	rasmusto	amalloy: make them be explicit, I think I like that
13:36	TEttinger	heh fair enough
13:37	justin_smith	rasmusto: if nothing else, you can have a strict layer with no implicit arguments or coercions, then a separate coercing layer
13:37	justin_smith	if nothing else that makes understanding ones own code much simpler
13:38	amalloy	template haskell exists, but it's way more heavyweight than macros. and, as technomancy says, less necessary in a lazy language
13:38	rasmusto	all the pieces are coming together now :)
13:39	S3thc0n	That's my point: Would a lazy Lisp (just hypothetical) with the basic constructs (let, pattern matching etc) still need macros (except for when the designers abandon it and newly appeared basic features should be implemented)?
13:39	amalloy	the primary feature of macros is controlling the evaluation of arguments, by putting them in a different lexical/dynamic context, or by evaluating them multiple times or whatever
13:40	justin_smith	that makes me think of another possible framing "macros are for doctor who's business, if you don't need to deal with alternate flows of time, or universes where things are parsed differently, you may not need them"
13:40	amalloy	in a lazy language, a lot of that wouldn't be necessary, but it's still nice, both for bootstrapping the language from a small set of primitives, and for letting users customize things
13:41	technomancy	S3thc0n: oh I see; interesting. probably the main one would be evaluating things in a different lexical context, like how the for macro's :while or :let stuff works.
13:41	llasram	And for locally reducing boilerplate
13:41	bbloom	amalloy: evaluating multiple times is the one that gets forgotten by lazy advocates
13:41	technomancy	but that's not strictly necessary; it's just map sugar
13:42	llasram	I think my most frequent use of macros is when I'm defining <n> of the same thing in the same place, and create a private, local macro to capture the pattern
13:42	amalloy	bbloom: well, of course in a truly lazy side-effect-free language that doesn't matter anyway
13:43	technomancy	probably heavy code-walking things like core.async couldn't be done in userspace, but I'm not very familiar with that
13:43	technomancy	and that's not the kind of macro mere mortals should be writing anyway, so not having that capability built-in to the language isn't a big deal IMO
13:43	amalloy	since evaluating an expression multiple times always produces the same result, and has no other effects
13:44	bbloom	amalloy: except that's not really true, hence Control.Monad.Loops
13:44	S3thc0n	technomancy: That is exactly what I was thinking of.
13:44	amalloy	to meaningfully evaluate something multiple times in a pure, lazy language, you need it to be a function, and pass it different args; this is roughly the same as evaluating multiple times in a modified lexical environment
13:45	amalloy	bbloom: but those don't evalaute the same thing multiple times!
13:45	bbloom	amalloy: sure, they thread a state variable you can't get at through
13:45	amalloy	right. which means they don't need to be macros
13:46	bbloom	amalloy: right, but laziness is orthogonal to purity. it's just that laziness is practically impossible to reason about without purity
13:47	bbloom	amalloy: and you can't implement loops with laziness alone, you also need a trampoline of sorts, which in the case of haskell is provided by the runtime for monads
13:47	technomancy	S3thc0n: I can't think of any cases of macros you'd write in application code anyway
13:47	amalloy	definitely. i guess i didn't say soon enough that i was talking about a pure language as well as a lazy one
13:48	bbloom	amalloy: our discussion was more for the sake of S3thc0n than either of us anyway :-P
13:48	justin_smith	in impure lazy lang would be kind of a fun INTERCAL style esolang actually
13:48	amalloy	bbloom: you sound so noble! you know we were just arguing because it's fun
13:48	bbloom	amalloy: sshhh
13:49	S3thc0n	bbloom: You may very well continue, I'm extracting knowledge through that. o.o
13:49	amalloy	bbloom: i don't understand what you mean by being unable to implement loops with just laziness
13:49	justin_smith	you could have like a "supervisor" construct, that forces the default lazy functions to grudgingly process some of their inputs at a semi-nondeterministic rate...
13:49	amalloy	obviously tail recursion is enough to implement loops, so you must mean something i don't understand
13:49	wink	hm, is there an easier way for foo-bar -> "Foo Bar" than this monstrosity? (let [p (string/split (:class c) #"-")] (apply str (map (fn [x] (str (string/upper-case (first x)) (apply str (rest x)) " " )) p)))
13:50	amalloy	wink: ##(doc clojure.string/join)
13:50	lazybot	⇒ "([coll] [separator coll]); Returns a string of all elements in coll, as returned by (seq coll), separated by an optional separator."
13:50	justin_smith	wink: camel-snake-kebab may help you?
13:50	justin_smith	https://github.com/qerub/camel-snake-kebab
13:50	wink	thanks both, checkin
13:51	bbloom	amalloy: tail recursion isn't lazy
13:52	bbloom	amalloy: well... i guess i can be
13:52	amalloy	monads certainly don't enter into it. you can write a lazy looping function without any monads
13:52	justin_smith	wink: oh, you would need to fork c-s-k and add a [capitolize capitolize " "] rule here for it to help you https://github.com/qerub/camel-snake-kebab/blob/stable/src/camel_snake_kebab.clj#L27
13:53	justin_smith	so probably never mind that - though c-s-k should provide that, as far as I am concerned
13:53	wink	hehe
13:53	amalloy	let f 0 = []; f x = x:(f (x - 1))
13:53	justin_smith	s/capitolize/capitalize/g
13:53	amalloy	it's the automatic thunking that makes lazily looping possible, not monads
13:55	bbloom	amalloy: i think you're making sense, but i'm not going to think about it too hard b/c my brain is still exhausted from yesterday
13:55	amalloy	goodness. what did i miss yesterday?
13:55	bbloom	amalloy: https://twitter.com/BrandonBloom/status/455452491304685568
13:56	justin_smith	you are in a twisty maze of stack-frames, all alike
13:56	bbloom	GO EAST
13:56	yedi_	does anyone have example ansible scripts for deploying clojure webapps
13:56	technomancy	oh man
13:56	justin_smith	your inspector has not been implemented yet, you are likely to be eaten by a Grue
13:56	technomancy	I started playing zork with my kids last week
13:57	enquora	anyone here using clara-rules?
13:57	technomancy	that damn maze is like ... an object lesson in life's unfairness
13:57	llasram	technomancy: The one you solve by leaving a trail of your most precious belongings?
13:58	technomancy	"I went east and then west and I should be back where I started but I'm not; what is the deal" / "listen buddy, what is this 'should'? the world doesn't owe you anything."
13:58	technomancy	(not actually how I talk to my kids but you get the idea)
13:58	justin_smith	I once solved a non-euclidean self-modifying maze in a MUD by marking each room in a binary system devised of presence or absence of multiple easily found objects that could be left on the floor
13:58	amalloy	justin_smith: maybe it makes sense for c.j.io/reader to interpret a string as a url, for symmetry with c.j.io/writer, which clearly can't interpret a string as anything but a place to write to
13:58	technomancy	llasram: right; and then sometimes the thief steals your landmarks for kicks.
13:58	llasram	OH RIGHT
13:58	llasram	I forgot that part
13:59	justin_smith	{:mushroom 1 :magic-light 2 :dried-meat 4} and thus mark rooms...
13:59	llasram	Unless you kill him first? But maybe you can't do that until later
13:59	justin_smith	amalloy: I can see the logic, but not the usefullness
13:59	llasram	amalloy: Of course, io/copy with a source string copies the string content. Fun times
14:03	mikerod	so, are there no functions exposed in clojure.core that would allow me to test if a Symbol resolves to a class name or not?
14:03	mikerod	without throwing an exception
14:04	S3thc0n	llasram: Good idea killing him, you can mark the floor with his blood and guts :3
14:04	mikerod	I think I see this idea @ Compiler$HostExpr#maybeClass() but it is a private method :)
14:04	llasram	mikerod: Why do you need this?
14:05	mikerod	llasram: DSL stuff
14:05	mikerod	llasram: fairly long story
14:05	mikerod	llasram: I want to fully-qualify symbols without compiling things.
14:06	justin_smith	,(try (resolve 'java.io.Files) (catch ClassNotFoundException e false))
14:06	clojurebot	justin_smith: No entiendo
14:06	mikerod	llasram: dealing with the static member access via interop macros
14:06	mikerod	(Instant/now)
14:06	ambrosebs	,(resolve 'java.io.Files)
14:06	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: java.io.Files>
14:07	ambrosebs	,(resolve 'java.io/Files)
14:07	clojurebot	nil
14:07	ambrosebs	of course.
14:07	justin_smith	ahh
14:08	ambrosebs	pretty sure this is abug
14:08	llasram	mikerod: I think you'll probably just want to Class/forName and catch the exception
14:08	justin_smith	ambrosebs: which behavior being a bug? the one where the class is not there?
14:08	ambrosebs	justin_smith: (resolve 'java.io.Typo) should return nil I think
14:08	ambrosebs	resolve returns (U nil Var)
14:08	ambrosebs	resolve returns (U nil Var Class)
14:08	llasram	mikerod: Although it honestly seems like a bad idea to do a different thing w/ a symbol based simply on whether or not a class named by it exists
14:09	justin_smith	llasram: yeah, good point/ Class/forName is more direct than turning the string into a symbol and resolving
14:09	tobani	, (resolve 'java.io/Typo)
14:09	clojurebot	nil
14:09	llasram	I think it's because the symbol has a namespace, and thus cannot be a class
14:09	justin_smith	tobani: but that is not a class, it is a function in a nonexistent ns
14:11	tobani	Yeah that was me thinking "is there a Files class in java8 or...."
14:11	justin_smith	I should have used a more obvious typo
14:12	Bronsa	ambrosebs: yeah it looks like a bug
14:13	Bronsa	,(doc ns-resolve)
14:13	clojurebot	"([ns sym] [ns env sym]); Returns the var or Class to which a symbol will be resolved in the namespace (unless found in the environment), else nil. Note that if the symbol is fully qualified, the var/Class to which it resolves need not be present in the namespace."
14:13	Bronsa	should definitely return nil
14:14	bbloom	,(def ^{:xx (prn 1)} f) ; whoa
14:14	clojurebot	1\n1\n#'sandbox/f
14:14	bbloom	apparently def evals the metadata!?
14:14	Bronsa	bbloom: yeah, it's by design
14:15	bbloom	Bronsa: interesting. why?
14:15	Bronsa	bbloom: however it's a bug that it evals the metadata twice
14:15	bbloom	heh
14:15	Bronsa	there should already be a ticket in JIRA for that
14:15	Bronsa	bbloom: don't talk to me about :arglists
14:16	bbloom	lol
14:16	tpope	oh bbloom 90% of the clojure.core's in fireplace are gone now
14:16	bbloom	tpope: that's both great news AND bad news b/c it means i need to port my changes :-)
14:16	S3thc0n	Wow - I just realized that with runtime macros, one could implement functions as a macro which replaces the variables in the function body's AST. And macros are special functions. Macroception?
14:16	tpope	using tricks like "eval in the user namespace"
14:17	bbloom	tpope: what's that mean exactly?
14:17	tpope	and tricks like "who the fuck would shadow macroexpand-1 I mean seriously"
14:17	bbloom	lol shit. b/c i might do that lol
14:17	bbloom	hell, doesn't clojure.walk do that?
14:17	Bronsa	bbloom: I don't know why it's evalauted though, I just know that it's explicitely stated in http://clojure.org/special_forms#Special%20Forms--(def%20symbol%20init?) that it will be
14:17	tpope	jesus man you're the reason I got defensive about clojure.core in the first place
14:17	bbloom	S3thc0n: if you're interested in "runtime macros" i highly recommend checking out a language called "Kernel" & fexprs
14:18	bbloom	Bronsa: weird. shrug ok
14:18	S3thc0n	bbloom: Thanks for the hint :)
14:18	S3thc0n	I've never liked the differentation between runtime and compile time anyway :b
14:18	Bronsa	bbloom: I guess it's convenient for :inline/:inline-arities though
14:18	bbloom	Bronsa: i split def in to two primitive effects: :declare and :define
14:18	technomancy	compile time is just a subset of runtime
14:19	tpope	by "eval in the user namespace" I just mean I'm assuming that you'd have to be a pretty big asshole to shadow something in user
14:19	Bronsa	bbloom: huh? what are the benefits?
14:19	ambrosebs	tpope: if relevant: clojure.tools.analyzer/macroexpand-1, clojure.tools.analyzer.jvm/macroexpand-1
14:20	bbloom	tpope: so if i evaluate an individual form, you somehow evaluate that in user? what if i'm evaluating it in a ns that has extra stuff in scope?
14:20	bbloom	Bronsa: https://github.com/brandonbloom/eclj/blob/master/src/eclj/env.clj#L64-L73
14:21	bbloom	Bronsa: b/c i implement it in terms of intern and intern doesn't have a way to differentiate nil from unbound
14:21	Bronsa	lol I didn't even know intern took a val argument
14:22	Bronsa	bbloom: makes sense
14:22	tpope	bbloom: individual forms get evaled with no extra wrapping
14:22	bbloom	tpope: they get evaluated in the current namespace tho, right?
14:22	tpope	that (try (eval ...)) nonsense is long gone
14:22	tpope	yeah the current namespace
14:22	bbloom	tpope: ok, so what if the current namespace defines macroexpand-1 ?
14:22	tpope	then what the fuck is wrong with you
14:23	bbloom	tpope: Bronsa, ambrosebs, and i have all done that :-P
14:23	amalloy	,(def macroexpand-1 (partial list 'macro!))
14:23	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.SecurityException: denied, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
14:24	amalloy	:(
14:24	bbloom	for eclj, i have to patch up eval, case, defprotocol, deftype, ns, and reify b/c all of those are basically compiler primitives in disguise
14:25	rasmusto	read edn from a resource (edn/read-string (slurp (resource filename))) ?
14:25	justin_smith	I love case for providing such a straightforward performant low level functionality, I hate it for making a special case exception for what (...) means
14:25	tpope	macroexpand-1 feels like a pretty frivolous extra to worry about anyways
14:26	gtrak	as far as I can tell, this discussion is about fireplace eval'ing stuff. Is it an option to implement this in an nrepl middleware? We shouldn't be writing new tooling code that gets eval'd except as a stopgap.
14:26	gtrak	at least in theory
14:26	justin_smith	rasmusto: (edn/read (resource filename)) maybe?
14:26	rasmusto	justin_smith: edn/read wnats a pushback reader
14:26	tpope	lol don't talk to me about middleware mr. my middleware sends map data as lists because that makes the elisp easier
14:26	justin_smith	or do we need to turn resource into a reader first to make that work?
14:27	justin_smith	(-> filename resource reader edn/read) ?
14:27	Bronsa	justin_smith: reader doesn't return a PBR
14:27	justin_smith	never mind then :)
14:27	rasmusto	justin_smith: its a bufferedReader
14:28	justin_smith	there should totally be a clojure.java.io/hipster function that returns a PBR
14:28	tpope	seriously the fact there's generic ops like "info" that send data hand tailored for elisp makes the whole notion a bit of a joke
14:28	rasmusto	justin_smith: cloblue/ribbon
14:28	bbloom	tpope: here's my hacks btw: https://github.com/brandonbloom/vim-fireplace/compare/master...eclj
14:28	gtrak	tpope: I have a ticket out there to fix that :-), just backwards compatible for now b/c whatever..
14:28	gtrak	I haven't heard any complaints.
14:29	gtrak	don't point at me! tpope: https://github.com/clojure-emacs/cider-nrepl/issues/27
14:29	rasmusto	justin_smith: I'll use string-pushback-reader I guess
14:29	rasmusto	string-push-back-reader*
14:30	tpope	gtrak: whew at least we're on the same page there
14:30	justin_smith	rasmusto: what ns is that in?
14:30	gtrak	I had to debug the elisp bencode implementation to get this to work at all.
14:30	gtrak	believe me, I have zero preference for elisp
14:30	rasmusto	justin_smith: clojure.tools.reader.reader-types
14:32	rasmusto	justin_smith: I might be on the wrong track here though, since slurp + memoize seemed to work OK
14:32	gtrak	tpope: if there's any other blockers for you, you should let me know.
14:32	gtrak	kinda working in a vacuum here.
14:32	tpope	gtrak: my other piece of feedback is that you're sending absolute paths, whereas I already have classpath searching locally and would prefer to use that, because it will even work in cases like drawbridge on a remote server
14:33	tpope	gtrak: I get sending absolute, but could we also send classpath relative if available?
14:33	justin_smith	rasmusto: extra credit, have the internal function take two args, file path and timestamp, and top level function passes in the file you ask for, and its modification time
14:33	justin_smith	then memoize the internal, of course
14:33	gtrak	tpope: in that case I'd probably add an extra attribute to the response.
14:33	tpope	gtrak: yeah exactly
14:33	gtrak	I'll make an issue for it
14:34	rasmusto	justin_smith: hm, clojure.tools.reader.reader_types.PushbackReader isn't a java.io.PushbackReader I guess
14:34	justin_smith	ouch
14:34	tpope	gtrak: I already hooked up the stracktrace and complete ops
14:34	gtrak	tpope: I'll call it 'resource', I think.
14:35	gtrak	file-classpath doesn't quite make sense
14:35	justin_smith	,(java.io.PushbackReader. (io/reader (io/resource "project.clj")))
14:35	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such namespace: io, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
14:35	tpope	yeah resource sounds much better than anything I can think of
14:35	TimMc	Is it some kind of sick joke that lein-voom is at 0.1.0-SNAPSHOT instead of a stable release?
14:35	llasram	nice
14:36	dbell	Anyone know what might cause a dirty take/put in core.async? #omproblems
14:36	mikerod	llasram: sorry, had a meeting...
14:36	justin_smith	(defn pbr [location] (java.io.PushbackReader. (io/reader (io/resource location))))
14:36	justin_smith	rasmusto: that function should make it easy?
14:37	llasram	mikerod: How dare you walk in the way of the channel dispensing sage advice?
14:37	mikerod	llasram: so I tried to catch up with what all was said. and the consensus is I have to try-catch a Class#forName ? booo
14:37	mikerod	llasram: I know, I'm sorry :(
14:37	rasmusto	justin_smith: yep, shaves off about 1s from the slurp + read-string version
14:37	llasram	mikerod: haha. I don't know about consensus -- that's just my suggestion
14:37	justin_smith	rasmusto: oh, nice
14:37	mikerod	I was surprised that `resolve` throws exceptions on me for classes
14:38	gtrak	tpope: I think the map/list thing will be pretty easy. It's just at the top-level. I'll let you know when it's ready to go, I have to implement it in cider itself first.
14:38	justin_smith	mikerod: consensus is that is a bug that should be fixed I think
14:38	llasram	mikerod: What's so bad about catching exceptions?
14:38	gtrak	make it work both ways, then pull the rug out
14:38	tpope	gtrak: any concerns about making the op backwards incompatible?
14:38	mikerod	justin_smith: ah I see
14:38	tpope	ah ok
14:38	llasram	mikerod: If you're concerned about the class-load-initialize behavior, you can always use the form which inhibits initialization
14:38	tpope	yeah I'll just hold out for the map implementation I guess
14:39	gtrak	tpope: cider hasn't had a real release since I started on this, and the plugin remains at SNAPSHOT, too.
14:39	mikerod	llasram: no initialize concerns for me. try-catch control flow just always looks a bit shady to me.
14:39	llasram	mikerod: shrug When the Java standard library gives you exceptions, you make exception-ade
14:40	mikerod	llasram: haha, +1 putting it that way
14:40	bbloom	tpope: gtrak: sorry, i'm not really following this conversation right now, but i just want to add that sometimes nrepl returns errors that fireplace can't parse
14:40	mikerod	for putting*
14:40	bbloom	i'm not sure when that happens or why
14:40	bbloom	tpope: it happens at .value[0] in the nrepl.vim code
14:40	bbloom	basically, value isn't a vector sometimes... shrug
14:40	gtrak	bbloom: yea, I'd need more detail, like a printout of the nrepl response.
14:41	bbloom	gtrak: i can get that, 1 sec
14:42	bbloom	gtrak: i get:
14:42	bbloom	Exception not caught: nREPL: namespace not found
14:42	bbloom	which is probably a mix of clojure & vim errors
14:42	bbloom	also, i have a patched nrepl, so it could be me being an idiot somehow
14:43	bbloom	gtrak: my patch is here: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/NREPL-50?page=com.atlassian.streams.streams-jira-plugin:activity-stream-issue-tab
14:44	gtrak	ah, yea we don't do anything at all to handle top-level exceptions, emacs will just freeze when that's the case :-). Barring a general fix for that, if you have specific inputs that cause it, we can add a testcase and fix for the specific op.
14:44	bbloom	gtrak: seriously? sheesh.
14:45	tpope	there are definitely errors that fireplace can't handle either
14:45	gtrak	Once I understand the ramifications, I'll figure it out, but I'm still pretty new to nrepl and elisp :-)
14:45	tpope	in particular when nrepl craps out midway through serializing a response
14:45	gtrak	I just _really_ wanted the cljs thing to work.
14:45	tpope	bbloom: I don't have time to dig in now but feel free to make issues
14:46	gtrak	I'll add an issue for the general exception handling, I don't think there is one yet, but I've been aware of it.
14:46	bbloom	tpope: i only didn't file an issue b/c i don't have enough info to make a sensible bug report
14:46	gtrak	bbloom: should still get me the bad inputs, we should handle them if they make any sense.
14:47	gtrak	or often, returning nil is fine.
14:47	gtrak	better than an exception
14:47	bbloom	gtrak: i think it has to do w/ stack overflows in eval. basically if there is no stacktrace available, then tpope's code will do pst and gets no result to parse
14:47	bbloom	gtrak: returning nil is NOT FINE. that's super confusing lol
14:48	gtrak	bbloom: depends :-). I think it's sensible if you're asking for a var that doesn't exist?
14:48	tpope	bbloom: skimming your changes, it's a mixture of happily moot and merge confict
14:48	gtrak	or we could just implement http ;-)
14:49	bbloom	tpope: which parts are which? / how can i help?
14:49	bbloom	it's working good enough for me right now, so i probably won't bother attempting to reconcile your changes until after i get a little bit more stuff working in my own code
14:49	tpope	bbloom: the stacktrace stuff is hopefully moot. that's where I just evaled in the user ns
14:49	tpope	bbloom: one off runner definitely moot
14:50	tpope	bbloom: oh and for stacktrace you can just provide a stacktrace nrepl op
14:50	tpope	matching the cider nrepl one
14:51	bbloom	tpope: i can?
14:51	bbloom	tpope: honestly, most of this stuff is only your problem b/c nrepl is not as general purpose as promised
14:51	tpope	well if you provide one fireplace will use it
14:52	tpope	can't really speak to your abilities
14:52	bbloom	i didn't write nrepl :-P
14:52	gtrak	tpope: bbloom: I've had similar problems recently with collisions between our own stacktrace stuff and the CLJS setup. still thinking about it.
14:52	gtrak	like.. somehow the browser JS engine ends up evaling clojure pst code :-).
14:52	gtrak	and totally screws up the repl.
14:53	bbloom	gtrak: yeah, clj + cljs + eclj = enough differences to design sensible enhancements
14:53	gtrak	I'm guessing that's because it's trying to eval it on the actual repl session instead of the tooling session to take advantage of dynamic vars *e.
14:53	gtrak	the answer is, don't eval.
14:53	gtrak	hence why I jumped into this :-)
14:53	bbloom	gtrak: for stack traces?
14:54	bbloom	the whole damn point is that i wrote a fucking eval function! :-P
14:54	gtrak	ah, well, that might be interesting.
14:55	gtrak	You're saying you want eclj eval with nrepl?
14:55	tpope	my use of eval is way down and once the info op is stable it'll basically just be frivolities
14:55	gtrak	maybe you should look at how piggieback implements it for cljs: https://github.com/cemerick/piggieback/blob/master/src/cemerick/piggieback.clj#L126
14:56	gtrak	well, it's somewhere in there
14:56	bbloom	gtrak: i shouldn't need to write a plugin to swap out a single function. that's just silly
14:56	tpope	eval for macroexpansion seems pretty benign for example. it's basically just a shortcut to type out (macroexpand-1 ...) for you
14:56	tpope	we're not evaling to query, just helping the user to interactively eval
14:57	bbloom	tpope: i know that fireplace does macroexpand, but for some reason i never use it... probably should
14:57	tpope	I don't really use it either
14:57	bbloom	here i am, typing out macroexpand like a sucker
14:57	gtrak	bbloom: 'eval' is an op in nrepl, it's more complicated than that, but yea I guess you could use whatever to call a function.
14:57	gtrak	the nrepl eval supports interruption and some other stuff
14:57	bbloom	gtrak: clojure.main/repl has an eval argument, so i supply it :-P
14:57	bbloom	seems to work for me
14:59	gtrak	I'm not sure I understand the use-case, but that won't be first-class in nrepl terms.
15:00	gtrak	i mean, you wouldn't want to replace clojure's eval for the whole process.
15:00	gtrak	unless you do, but that sounds bad
15:01	bbloom	gtrak: i changed fireplace to look at the file extension. if it's clj, it does nothing different. if the ext is eclj, then it passes :eval 'eclj.core/eval
15:01	bbloom	that's all
15:02	Bronsa	justin_smith: mikerod btw I opened a ticket for the ns-resolve bug
15:02	mikerod	Bronsa: awesome, I'll watch that one
15:03	sveri	hi, I am trying to parse some datomic data, especially the instant type, which comes as a standard date string. From the server I get some edn back, but when I try to display the date I see nothing, not even an error, however, it works with different attributes: this is the code: http://pastebin.com/VP1yQjRZ
15:04	gtrak	bbloom: ah, ok. weird :-). does fireplace use that for something?
15:04	bbloom	gtrak: no. i'm writing a clojure interpreter
15:04	bbloom	gtrak: and i wanted it to work in vim
15:04	bbloom	and now it does w/ my various patches/hacks
15:05	amalloy	sveri: i mean, you're trying to embed a time/date object into your dom. presumably you want to format it as a string of some kind
15:05	sveri	amalloy: are there helper functions in cljs available for this?
15:06	amalloy	also you seem to not be passing enough args to map? like, your paste is missing stuff. you have (apply dom/div nil (map #(...)))
15:07	sveri	amalloy: i left out the calls around that are not needed for the paste, however, calling a different keyword on the map it works as expected
15:08	gtrak	tpope: is the map thing only an issue in the response, or the request, too?
15:09	bbloom	Bronsa: ok eclj now evaluates var metadata... ONCE :-)
15:09	tpope	gtrak: I would much prefer to send a map for associative data, yes. I don't remember noticing any ops that forced me to send lists
15:10	gtrak	tpope: yea, I just haven't traced the request code yet, somehow it magically ends up as a map once it hits my middlewares :-).
15:10	gtrak	but I'm not sure what it starts out as
15:11	tpope	so the top level structure seems to always be a map. I don't think any cider-nrepl ops take a nested structure?
15:11	gtrak	yea, I don't think there's a reason for it yet
15:12	gtrak	but arglists at least is an example of some nested data
15:12	gtrak	in the response
15:12	tpope	oh yeah that. I'm wondering if that might be better sent as a string?
15:13	tpope	I mean it depends what you want to use it for, but the only use case I have is display
15:13	gtrak	I'm back and forth on that. elisp ends up reading it, but it's a bit weird, since [] encodes as nil. I was thinking of adding an arglists-str attribute too.
15:13	tpope	yeah maybe both is the safe bet
15:13	whodidthis	any idea how to add index to maps in a vector like [{:t :a} {:t :c}] -> [{:t :a :index 0} {:t :c :index 1}]
15:14	amalloy	&(doc map-indexed)
15:14	lazybot	⇒ "([f coll]); Returns a lazy sequence consisting of the result of applying f to 0 and the first item of coll, followed by applying f to 1 and the second item in coll, etc, until coll is exhausted. Thus function f should accept 2 arguments, index and item."
15:15	whodidthis	whoa, clojur has everything, thanks
15:16	tpope	gtrak: how are you formatting docs over in emacs? just stitching togethr the symbol, arglists, and doc string by hand?
15:16	tpope	with an arglists str that's pretty straightforward
15:17	btcNeverSleeps	when using clojure.test, is there an easy way to shortcut out of a deftest as soon as on test fails? e.g. I'd like (deftest test-ff (is false) (is false)) to report only one failure, not two.
15:17	btcNeverSleeps	s/as on/as one/
15:18	gtrak	tpope: it actually uses the data.
15:18	gtrak	it used to 'read' the string.
15:18	gtrak	but that's an elisp read on clojure data (eww..)
15:19	tpope	yeah sounds treacherous
15:20	gtrak	so, we got rid of the 'read' just a couple days ago, now I'm going to add the string representation back for you :-)
15:20	gtrak	there's still some work to be done, the cljs arglists end up looking weird, I have to figure that out.
15:21	gtrak	like '([113 117 111 116 101] [(coll k v) (coll k v & kvs)])'
15:21	gtrak	for assoc
15:21	gtrak	um.. come to think of it, pretty sure that first one is quote
15:22	gtrak	(map int "quote")
15:22	gtrak	,(map int "quote")
15:22	clojurebot	(113 117 111 116 101)
15:22	gtrak	haha
15:22	tpope	brilliant
15:27	hyPiRion	gtrak: I know how you just knew by looking at the decimal representation
15:27	hyPiRion	/s/know/love/
15:28	gtrak	hehe, tbh I'd seen it quoted before a couple months ago, just made the connection (five of them).
15:37	gfredericks	people who like non-namespaced maven artifacts: my build just broke and you're all individually responsible
15:38	llasram	gfredericks: I apologize for the mistakes of my past selves
15:39	gfredericks	(inc llasram)
15:39	lazybot	⇒ 21
15:43	hyPiRion	gfredericks: like, unnamed packages?
15:43	gfredericks	hyPiRion: no like [foo "0.1.0"]
15:44	hyPiRion	gfredericks: oh, you're welcome then
15:57	xeqi	gfredericks: I'm interested to hear more
15:58	gfredericks	xeqi: somebody internally made a clojure library named [foo "0.1.1"] and put it on our internal maven repo
15:58	justin_smith	lol
15:58	gfredericks	6 months later an OSS organization decides they like that name too
15:58	gfredericks	so they put [foo "0.1.1"] on clojars
15:59	xeqi	haha
15:59	justin_smith	I hope the package was actually called foo
15:59	justin_smith	like literally
15:59	technomancy	solution: never use libraries that aren't oss
16:00	bbloom	justin_smith: the new version of the package is foo.bar version 3.1.4
16:00	gfredericks	justin_smith: it wasn't
16:01	gfredericks	$latest foo
16:01	lazybot	No project by this name exists on clojars.
16:01	xeqi	gfredericks: becareful, the foo on clojars might of had secret compiled code that uploaded everything on your hardrive to some hackerz server
16:02	technomancy	seriously, with all the hassle around private repositories it's really a wonder that anyone bothers writing libs that aren't OSS in the first place
16:03	pjstadig	gfredericks: maybe you shouldn't have had an internal library named foo, and instead one called namespace/foo :-p
16:03	xeqi	not that namespacing the internal one prevents someone from using the same group/artifact combo in a public server
16:04	pjstadig	if namespace == [YOUR COMPANY'S DOMAIN NAME] probably not likely
16:04	gfredericks	pjstadig: yes I agree and that's how I fixed the issue
16:04	gfredericks	I didn't decide to name it that in the first place
16:04	pjstadig	but naming things in a global namespace is hard
16:07	justin_smith	(defproject `(symbol (str (java.util.UUID/randomUUID) / "project-name")) ...)
16:08	gfredericks	technomancy: I think we have some people that use the private repo for app deployment
16:08	pjstadig	YES!
16:08	turbofail	shouldn't that be a ~?
16:08	justin_smith	turbofail: yeah, also / should have been "/" or \/
16:09	technomancy	gfredericks: I've seen people do that but do not understand the motivation at all
16:09	technomancy	I guess if you have regulatory concerns about S3 or something?
16:10	justin_smith	turbofail: also, the unquoting does not kick in until after the version number, it was a mock suggestion so whatevs
16:10	gfredericks	or availability? I dunno
16:10	gfredericks	technomancy: some companies might consider amazon to be a competitor :P
16:11	technomancy	it takes a lot of hubris to think you can do better than S3 though
16:11	justin_smith	because we need to keep all the client's private credentials in a clojure library as plaintext
16:11	turbofail	lol
16:11	justin_smith	and a private repo keeps that safe, right? /s
16:11	gtrak	technomancy: I don't think that's what he's saying..
16:11	arrdem	in registers, everything is plaintext
16:11	pjstadig	justin_smith: they use https, so by definition they are safe
16:11	gtrak	it doesn't take hubris to not give a competitor control over stuff you care about :-)
16:11	justin_smith	oh, yeah, I forgot
16:12	technomancy	gtrak: meant re: availability specifically
16:12	justin_smith	carry on then
16:12	arrdem	pjstadig: low blow
16:13	gfredericks	technomancy: the more datacenters it takes to deploy your app...
16:13	technomancy	gfredericks: still though, why not just scp or something?
16:14	technomancy	all the repository-specific logic isn't being used for single uberjars
16:14	gfredericks	no idea
16:14	gfredericks	setting up a private repo is still good for redundancy though
16:14	technomancy	sure, as a cache
16:14	gfredericks	right
16:15	technomancy	I guess if you already have it up as a cache, it's not much additional extra complexity
16:15	technomancy	but it's complecting caching and publishing zomg
16:15	justin_smith	that's been traditional for analog publishing
16:15	technomancy	(protip: easy way to convince clojure users something is a bad idea: accuse it of complecting)
16:16	justin_smith	technomancy: that's complecting good programming advice with social engineering advice
16:16	technomancy	oh noes
16:16	TEttinger	technomancy: I've linked people to the keyboard pants concept after they said they'd paid $200 for a keyboard
16:17	technomancy	TEttinger: hehe; nice
16:17	technomancy	FWIW I haven't been doing that recently, but maybe there is more research to explore in that field
16:18	TEttinger	I wonder if you could use similar technology to those laser keyboards and track finger movement directly
16:18	TEttinger	keygloves
16:19	technomancy	nah, typing without tactile feedback is a nightmare
16:19	TEttinger	who said no tactile feedback?
16:19	TEttinger	you could have a pad at the fingertip
16:19	justin_smith	technomancy: easily fixed the way cellphones do it: install a vibrator in the pants
16:19	rasmusto	I want haptic gloves
16:19	justin_smith	technomancy: bonus, secondary market :)
16:20	technomancy	TEttinger: maybe if you cloud vary the strength of the feedback based on hew far from the center of the "key" you struck
16:21	amalloy	i wonder what cyborglovesystems.com would be like
16:22	justin_smith	depends where you break the words
16:22	justin_smith	cyborg love systems
16:22	rasmusto	haha
16:23	amalloy	that's really the only sensible place to break the words, which is why i thought it was funny
16:23	rasmusto	(inc amalloy)
16:23	lazybot	⇒ 98
16:38	TimMc	hagelborglovesystems
16:39	rasmusto	ha! gel borglo vesys tems
16:40	Bronsa	lol
17:02	blake__	Is there a preferred way to indicate a function parameter when the function has a specific, known task (as opposed to being highly abstract). Like, if I need a function that foos bars, should I code the formal parameter as "bar-fooer-fn" or "bar-the-foo" or...is there a "best practice" here?
17:03	justin_smith	blake__: I typically just call it f
17:03	justin_smith	and make sure my comment and code are clear as air
17:03	blake__	'k.
17:04	justin_smith	actually - maybe "half the time" - if there is an extremely straightforward name, I just go for that
17:04	justin_smith	like if it describes something that stores data, I call it "save"
17:04	justin_smith	I like to name it the verb, and not "doer of the verb"
17:05	blake__	but also not "verb-the-noun"...
17:05	justin_smith	no
17:05	justin_smith	but that is style of course, I am sure there are many good ways to do it
17:06	bbloom	blah-fn is common when you want to differentiate from blah the macro
17:06	blake__	Sure. I'm not gonna marry it, I just don't want to bring over some other language-style, like nounReceiveVerbWhenDesired.
17:07	devth	twi
17:07	blake__	bbloom: Good tip, thx.
17:07	devth	mt
17:07	TimMc	devth: Are you a cat?
17:07	mdrogalis	Hahah.
17:07	mdrogalis	That took me a sec. :P
17:08	amalloy	one example of a bad way would be to name it after the type signature it would have in haskell. (defn frobnicate [data lparen_a->b->a_rparen->a->lsquare_a_rsquare->a] ...)
17:08	devth	TimMc: nope, alfred user trying to switch to twitter window :)
17:09	blake__	amalloy: I can't even.
17:09	amalloy	hey, where does the "mt" acronym for like "oops, wrong channel/window/person" come from?
17:09	devth	mistell
17:09	TimMc	huh
17:09	amalloy	okay. that's what i guessed, because i'd only seen it in games before. but then you brought it here
17:09	rasmusto	wtb a better irc client, pst
17:10	devth	i figured it was appropriate in irc
17:10	technomancy	http://nedroid.com/2012/07/b-r-webcoms/
17:10	TimMc	I wonder if I could set up irssi to require me to type /say in front of messages.
17:10	justin_smith	(inc rasmusto)
17:10	lazybot	⇒ 7
17:10	Bronsa	TimMc: that would be horrible to use.
17:11	justin_smith	cast fireball TimMc
17:11	justin_smith	:( didn't work
17:12	amalloy	Bronsa: he would add a keyboard macro to automatically prefix with /say
17:12	TimMc	prolly
17:13	blake__	Ultimately, probably ending up defeating the purpose...
17:13	oskarth	What's a good example of simple error handling in a Clojure library interacting with an API? Looking for good patterns I should adopt
17:14	gtrak	simple: happy-paths-only programming :-)
17:14	llambda	are there any best practices around testing om apps? (even cljs in general, for that matter)
17:15	justin_smith	oskarth: this may seem like a non-sequitor, but always name anonymous functions
17:15	justin_smith	(fn name-you-see-in-the-stacktrace [& args] ...)
17:15	oskarth	gtrak: definitely
17:15	justin_smith	makes figuring out what you broke so much easier....
17:16	oskarth	For example if I call a GET I might get three types of errors. The request might be malformed, I might lack access, the resource might not exist etc. How to uniformly report and propogate this in a sane manner?
17:16	oskarth	true, good one
17:16	justin_smith	if only I could "name" comp - how hard would it be to make comp produce an anon fn with a name derived from the names of its args? is that totally absurd?
17:16	gtrak	oskarth: in our compojure api, I just slingshot throw an exception with the status code as part of the map, can pattern match on that if I feel like it.
17:17	oskarth	Right now I'm doing a cond for the different "levels" of error and returning a heterogenous map with an error key with optional details
17:17	justin_smith	slingshot rich exceptions are pretty cool, yeah
17:17	oskarth	what does slingshot throw an exception mean?
17:17	gtrak	I've got a middleware to catch and modify them, too
17:18	gtrak	oskarth: well, actually you can use ex-info instead of slingshot for the throw side.
17:18	justin_smith	oskarth: slingshot lets you attach arbitrary clojure data to exceptions, that the one catching it can use
17:18	oskarth	oh, it's a library?
17:18	justin_smith	yeah
17:18	gtrak	slingshot can pattern-match the data on catch, yea.
17:18	gtrak	ex-info's built into clojure
17:18	gtrak	,(ex-info {:a :b})
17:18	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core/ex-info>
17:19	gtrak	see? it exists ;-p
17:19	devn	whoa. i hadn't seen the "Promote" button on clojars.
17:19	justin_smith	it's not a great way to do general purpose programming since exceptions are expensive and in the jvm truly are designed only for exceptional conditions, but it definitely beats switching on the type of the exception or something
17:19	gtrak	,(ex-info "Message" {:a :b})
17:19	clojurebot	#<ExceptionInfo clojure.lang.ExceptionInfo: Message {:a :b}>
17:19	oskarth	what about "sane" errors, ie external ones? sometimes they are in a json body, and sometimes they are just in a "not authorized" response, any getting around cond-handling that?
17:20	justin_smith	oskarth: design the api to always return a map including error code and optional message, with a convenience function for the common "barf on it if it is weird" option
17:20	oskarth	slingshot looks interesting though
17:21	oskarth	justin_smith: it's not necessarily my API ;) but yeah, something like that is what I'm doing right now
17:21	oskarth	but manually constructing the map when it doesn't exist
17:22	gtrak	if you're just throwing stuff, I don't think slingshot actually helps you
17:22	oskarth	it seems like a lot of special case analysis though, with all the cond, and then higher up dealing with it in different ways
17:22	oskarth	not sure what the shape of something better would look like
17:22	gtrak	in the impl of the lib, you don't need it, might be convenient for clients to use it
17:23	oskarth	some kind of rules system?
17:24	gtrak	as a lib user, in practice, I don't handle every error case, just the ones I'm interested in.
17:24	justin_smith	oskarth: maybe a multimethod or protocol for the returned data, and the client defines the implementation that is called in each error state?
17:24	oskarth	thats true
17:24	oskarth	justin_smith: do you have any examples of code using such a pattern?
17:24	justin_smith	with sane defaults provided of course
17:24	justin_smith	hmm...
17:25	gtrak	justin_smith: how is that better than just wrapping the call? a little more obvious, imo.
17:25	justin_smith	I don't know that I've seen it, it was just an idea of how it could be done?
17:25	oskarth	seems reasonably, if I want to get a user and the thing I get back does not satisfy being a user, it might satisfy being a malformed request or something, and then it can be dealt with on a differnet level
17:25	justin_smith	gtrak: in a try block you mean?
17:25	gtrak	yea
17:26	gtrak	or just funnel stuff into a common function
17:26	gtrak	not necessarily a try-catch every time you use it
17:27	gtrak	I guess, why worry about being clever here? I don't get it. if the data's available in a convenient way, that's enough.
17:27	oskarth	right now I have a handle-error function which creates a map for various cases
17:28	justin_smith	gtrak: I guess my motivation with the multimethod / protocol defining was that this way the client does not have to worry about the control flow (which is a common source of bugs, and could easily be defined once by the lib), and instead just implement each of the known possible cases
17:28	justin_smith	which could be a win for clarity overal
17:28	oskarth	having a protocol for the returned data is something I'll look into
17:29	gtrak	but that's global.. I'd probably just do a default impl that throws an exception :-)
17:29	justin_smith	oskarth: I didn't mean a protocol for the returned data, but a protocol defining the handlers that would be used on that data
17:29	gtrak	then you've got the issue of defining what exactly the protocol handles and doesn't handle. I'd want to see everything I could.
17:29	justin_smith	ahh
17:29	oskarth	hm
17:30	gtrak	ie, don't define spurious abstraction boundaries.
17:30	oskarth	I think a code example of something which has nice error handling/flow would be most useful at this point, if anyone knows of any
17:30	oskarth	yeah I see that point
17:33	gtrak	nice is when I can easily see everything I want to see, clj-http is pretty good at that. https://github.com/dakrone/clj-http/blob/master/src/clj_http/client.clj#L143
17:33	dakrone	\o/
17:33	justin_smith	gtrak: I think you are right, I was trying to overengineer it
17:34	gtrak	dakrone: but I wonder if slingshot is necessary anymore :-)
17:34	justin_smith	also agreed, once i figured out how it worked, clj-http was nice
17:34	dakrone	gtrak: hmm.. when was ex-info added again?
17:34	gtrak	1.4 I think?
17:35	gtrak	ya
17:35	dakrone	hmm... wonder if it's time to drop 1.3 support
17:36	gtrak	i guess it's not hurting anything
17:37	technomancy	it'd be cool to see "how long did you take to upgrade" numbers for various clojure versions in the State of Clojure survey
17:37	technomancy	I suspect 1.3 would score pretty low
17:37	gtrak	justin_smith: I guess my biggest criticism of multi-method/prot is simply action-at-a-distance
17:38	gtrak	you end up splaying the dependency across your codebase, without the normal benefits of those things (extending existing/closed types)
17:49	blake__	How does one rename a lein project? Do I just manually go through and change all the directory and filenames?
17:50	hiredman	blake__: depends what you mean by rename
17:50	hiredman	blake__: if you just want to change the artifact name in maven, just make the change to project.clj
17:50	hiredman	if you want to keep the artifact name but change the namespace names, move the files and change the ns forms
17:50	hiredman	and of course you can have various mixes of the two
17:50	blake__	I did a "lein new aproject" when I should've done "lein new bproject".
17:52	hiredman	if it is a brand new project you may as well just delete the typo and lein new again with the corrected version
17:52	devth	blake__: i like ack -l 'pattern' \| xargs perl -pi -E 's/pattern/replacement/g'
17:52	blake__	So I have to go into project.clj, change "def project aproject" to "def project bproject" and ":main aproject.core" with ":main bproject.core".
17:52	blake__	hiredman: Yeah, not new.
17:52	blake__	(I've done that a lot =P)
17:52	hiredman	blake__: it realyl depends
17:53	blake__	devth: Thanks, I'll try.
17:53	hiredman	what are you trying to achieve
17:53	hiredman	there are lots of orthogonal names that lein new generates
17:53	blake__	hiredman: Well, exactly the same thing I would've gotten had I done it right. I think it's just the project.clj and the core.clj?
17:53	blake__	hiredman: But I take your point; probably why there isn't a "lein rename".
17:54	justin_smith	in emacs you can do M-x rgrep to get hyperlinks to every usage of a regex within some directory subtree
17:54	hiredman	blake__: so you want to change the artifact id and all the namespaces
17:54	justin_smith	(then follow and edit, followed by renaming applicable files)
17:55	blake__	hiredman: yeah, I think so. I'm not sure what an "artifact" is.
17:55	hiredman	you might try using https://github.com/clojure/tools.namespace/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/tools/namespace/move.clj to automate renaming namespaces
17:55	hiredman	blake__: the artifact id is the name of the artifact in a maven repo
17:55	blake__	justin_smith: Fie upon your emacs!!! (I'm getting there. Slowly. Right now I'm doing a combination of "edln" and smoke signals.)
17:56	amalloy	i just found https://github.com/dakrone/cheshire/blob/master/src/cheshire/generate.clj#L67-L69 - can anyone think of a reason it might have been done this way, before i send a pull request to use (name k#)?
17:56	justin_smith	blake__: I am pretty sure sublimetext has a similar feature, vim may also
17:56	blake__	justin_smith: "edln" does not. =P
17:57	hiredman	amalloy: it may be for backwards compat
17:57	justin_smith	amalloy: also wanting the namespace part?
17:57	hiredman	amalloy: name used to throw on strings
17:57	justin_smith	,(name :foo/bar)
17:57	clojurebot	"bar"
17:57	amalloy	hiredman: wow, really? that must have been before 1.2, which is when i showed up
17:57	rasmusto	,(str :foo/bar)
17:57	clojurebot	":foo/bar"
17:57	justin_smith	,(.substring (string :foo/bar) 1)
17:57	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: string in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
17:57	amalloy	i'm pretty sure cheshire isn't that old anyway
17:57	hiredman	amalloy: I could be mistaken
17:57	justin_smith	,(.substring (str :foo/bar) 1)
17:57	clojurebot	"foo/bar"
17:58	justin_smith	I don't know if the different behavior with namespaced keywords is intented, but that would definitely change
17:59	amalloy	yeah, the a/b stuff looks like the only difference, and probably an important one
18:11	amalloy	hm, i'm having trouble following the locals-clearing here. it seems like https://www.refheap.com/347dfa4f9706149b049631c34 should be able to run in constant memory, but if i actually run it that's not what happens. i think this is because when it seqs over my map, each k/v entry holds a reference to the whole map
18:11	amalloy	is there a clever way i can use cheshire to do something like this, or do i have to do it by hand, like manually write "{x: 100, xs: " and then ask cheshire to write the object, and then write "}"?
18:13	dnolen_	amalloy: I don't see how that could work, there's no local to clear since the root of sequence is in the map and the map needs to be written.
18:13	dakrone	amalloy: see my experiments with doing that for a string field here: https://github.com/dakrone/cheshire/blob/master/src/cheshire/experimental.clj
18:14	amalloy	dnolen_: if the large object (here, xs) were the very last thing in the map, you could un-reference the map before you start writing xs
18:14	amalloy	or even, perhaps, dissoc :xs from the map before you start writing it? that seems like it should work even ignoring field ordering
18:15	dnolen_	amalloy: yeah dissoc'ing would work, wasn't clear you could do this in your case.
18:16	amalloy	dnolen_: well, i mean cheshire could do that. in order to write m, first dissoc x, then write the value of x; then dissoc xs and write the value of xs; then discover that the remaining map is empty
18:16	amalloy	that is, instead of seqing over the map, you recurse on it until it's empty
18:17	justin_smith	maybe a reduce?
18:17	justin_smith	no, never mind
18:19	dnolen_	amalloy: hmm, yeah seems like that would work? though honestly I'm surprised it doesn't just work if they seq the map first
18:20	amalloy	dnolen_: if you seq the map first, every entry in the map has a reference back to the root, right? and even if your "large" field is last, there's a thunk after it, which discovers that the map is actually nil so there's no work left to do
18:20	amalloy	i'll put together a prototype and see if it improves behavior for my test case
18:21	justin_smith	what about (map vec {...}) ?
18:21	amalloy	dakrone: still holds onto it all, in the seq produced by map
18:21	amalloy	because the first thing map does is seq it
18:23	justin_smith	,(into [] {:a 0 :b 1})
18:23	clojurebot	[[:b 1] [:a 0]]
18:23	justin_smith	maybe not
18:25	dnolen_	amalloy: ok yeah I don't dissoc'ing is enough, you have to know that the original map is going to get collected.
18:25	amalloy	dnolen_: sure, whoever's above you has to not be holding onto the map as well
18:26	dnolen_	yeah
18:26	dnolen_	seems brittle
18:26	amalloy	dissoc is necessary but not sufficient
18:27	amalloy	brittle seems a bit strong. cheshire should hold onto the object as weakly as it can (which should be enough to permit streaming output, i think); then it's your fault if you hold on too tightly as a user of cheshire, and you can fix it
18:27	dnolen_	amalloy: interesting, you could avoid this by cloning the value before printing it
18:27	amalloy	cloning, huh? how does that help?
18:28	amalloy	oh, in the user/client code
18:28	amalloy	maybe. i don't think it's actually necessary, but i'll finish my little proof of concept and see
18:28	dnolen_	amalloy: when you encounter a value if it's a lazy sequence / range you copy all the fields into a new thing first
18:28	dakrone	amalloy: interested in the results, lemme know how it goes
18:29	dnolen_	amalloy: you don't have clone in CLJ, but with-meta nil serves the same purpose
19:45	rhg135	hello everyone, is it just me or is the :nodejs target broken? keeps on saying cljs.nodejs being provided twice, i've tried 0.0-2202 and 0.0-2197 thanks
19:46	dnolen_	rhg135: gist of your project.clj
19:46	rhg135	k
19:48	rhg135	dnolen_, https://gist.github.com/rhg/10690590
19:49	dnolen_	rhg135: that doesn't include any :build settings
19:49	rhg135	i'm building at the repl, dnolen_
19:50	dnolen_	rhg135: you still need to supply build settings
19:50	rhg135	(cljs.closure/build "server.cljs" {:optimizations :simple :target :nodejs :output-to "server.js"})
19:51	dnolen_	rhg135: in server.js do you see the nodejs ns provided twice?
19:53	rhg135	it won't output anything but the shebang with :target
19:55	dnolen_	rhg135: k, I can't look into this at the moment, I suggest bringing it up on the ClojureScript ML asking if someone else has encountered this with exact steps to repro.
19:56	rhg135	ok, dnolen_ wasnt sure if it was just me
19:58	dnolen_	rhg135: you might want to try :optimizations :whitespace to check if the offending namespace is actually provided twice
19:59	amalloy	so dakrone, i wrote https://github.com/amalloy/cheshire/commit/ee81c68986a55c06a43753e423c42596fe0b66d4, which has a few issues. (1) it doesn't work for java.util.HashMap, since it uses dissoc. you'd need a special case there. (2) i can't actually tell if it worked. in all my trials i don't see objects being held onto by cheshire, but they're still being held onto by swank somehow(???)
20:03	dnolen_	rhg135: fwiw can't repro w/ cljsbuild, helpful if you create a minimal repo with the problem that I can look at, thanks.
20:05	rhg135	hmm interesting ok
20:10	amalloy	dakrone: i see that you have some stuff in cheshire.generate that takes a JsonGenerator, which i imagined that i could use: create a generator, write some stuff to it, then write some more - so that i can try managing the gc reachability of my own objects
20:10	amalloy	but you don't expose a way to actually get a jsongenerator
20:11	hiredman	amalloy: I wonder if it would be behave differently if it was a hash-map instead of an array map?
20:12	amalloy	hiredman: probably not. i think seqing over either of those maintains a pointer to the top-level map
20:12	amalloy	but my patch makes it not keep a handle on the seq anyway, so it shouldn't really matter
20:15	seangrove	bbloom: Was it you talking about a debugger visualizing events traveling up the component tree?
20:15	seangrove	Some time ago
20:16	perses	if i have empty graph G, and i want to do this, and want to add 1, 2, 3 one by one to g, my technique is: add-nodes (add-nodes (add-nodes G 1) 2) 3, add-nodes G node will return a new graph with nodes, how can i implement this?
20:18	arrdem	,(doc alter)
20:18	clojurebot	"([ref fun & args]); Must be called in a transaction. Sets the in-transaction-value of ref to: (apply fun in-transaction-value-of-ref args) and returns the in-transaction-value of ref."
20:19	arrdem	,(doc dosync)
20:19	clojurebot	"([& exprs]); Runs the exprs (in an implicit do) in a transaction that encompasses exprs and any nested calls. Starts a transaction if none is already running on this thread. Any uncaught exception will abort the transaction and flow out of dosync. The exprs may be run more than once, but any effects on Refs will be atomic."
20:20	arrdem	smelly code smells
20:22	rhg135	dnolen_, this is WEIRD, https://github.com/rhg/htmlscript actuall compiles now
20:25	perses	can anybody help?
20:26	crocket	Can clojure be used as a systems programming language yet?
20:26	cespare	If I find myself using update-in with a length-1 vector is there some other function I should be using instead?
20:27	gfredericks	cespare: not in clojure.core; various util libraries define update
20:27	gfredericks	I use prismatic/plumbing
20:27	cespare	gfredericks: ok thanks
20:29	bob2	crocket, no
20:29	arrdem	crocket: define "
20:29	arrdem	systems"...
20:30	crocket	A language in which to write linux utilities and OSes.
20:30	rhg135	no
20:30	arrdem	and it may never be...
20:30	rhg135	the jvm isnt even a dep
20:30	dbasch	I have a rest API built using compojure. What’s the easiest/standard way to type-check the parameters on the server and create standard error messages (e.g “parameter X must be [type])?
20:31	technomancy	crocket: you'd be better off with racket or ocaml
20:31	crocket	racket?
20:31	arrdem	$google racketlang
20:31	lazybot	[The Racket Language] http://racket-lang.org/
20:31	technomancy	assuming your goal is "FP systems"
20:31	rhg135	or c
20:31	technomancy	...
20:31	arrdem	rhg135: please... no...
20:31	rhg135	assuming you like pain
20:31	crocket	It seems rust will replace C if it is lucky.
20:31	arrdem	rhg135: we point people at Rust. Not at C. C needs to die.
20:32	gfredericks	~C \|needs\| to die
20:32	clojurebot	c'est bon!
20:32	rhg135	agreed, but c will always be great self-harm
20:32	technomancy	C is perfectly cromulent...
20:32	technomancy	for people writing code that needs to run on microcontrollers
20:32	technomancy	...assuming those people are allergic to forth
20:32	arrdem	rhg135: I mean if you want a sufficiently large shotgun with which to remove that pesky leg of yours...
20:33	arrdem	or landmine...
20:33	rhg135	exactly arrdem !
20:33	arrdem	or artilery piece..
20:33	crocket	No
20:33	crocket	We need artificial general intelligence that writes programs instead of languages.
20:33	arrdem	crocket: but you could remove it so elegantly with a 155mm shell...
20:33	arrdem	areyoufuckingkiddingme.jpg
20:33	crocket	Why do we toil on writing programs ourselves?
20:34	arrdem	because for four generations of researchers we haven't built an AGI
20:34	arrdem	so this I say to you
20:34	arrdem	crocket: http://arrdem.com/i/shoo.gif
20:34	crocket	arrdem, Fortunately, this time around, hardwares are about to emulate human brain.
20:34	crocket	Moore's law caught up with us.
20:34	arrdem	crocket: you believe that, if it gives you comfort.
20:35	rhg135	arrdem, i worked on https://bitbucket.org/rhg135/nice for a friend once, i havent recovered
20:35	arrdem	^ Mr. Bennit, Pride and Predudice, Jane Austin.
20:35	crocket	arrdem, Humans will probably emulate human brains around 2030.
20:35	crocket	With super computers.
20:36	arrdem	crocket: great. call me in 14 years when you still can't build a sufficiently high resolution scanner to fulfull Ray's grand vision.
20:36	arrdem	s/14/16/g
20:36	crocket	arrdem, destructive brain scanning might be there around that time.
20:36	crocket	It means slicing a dead brain into sheets and scanning it.
20:37	arrdem	crocket: thank you, I'm sure everyone else in this channel has read The Singularity Is Near as well.
20:37	crocket	arrdem, Just a probable timeline.
20:37	crocket	might happen or might not.
20:38	timsg	anyone know offhand where the logic for clojure’s basic repl lives?
20:38	arrdem	unfortunately, this means that we have another 16 years of using handtools as master craftsmen before we can build an "A"GI to do the job better.
20:38	arrdem	timsg: clojure.repl?
20:38	crocket	arrdem, yes at least 16 years.
20:38	crocket	long enough for my career.
20:38	hiredman	clojure.main and clojure.repl
20:39	arrdem	crocket: did you have a question or are you just being offtopic.
20:39	crocket	arrdem, I was just off topic.
20:40	crocket	arrdem, I just want to be lazy.
20:42	dbasch	To rephrase my question: I have a json api, so I get my parameters from the json-params map, and they are typed. I’d like to have a wrapper that type-checks them according to the spec for each call, and returns a 400 error if the types are not right. Does such a thing exist, or do I need to build it?
20:42	seangrove	dbasch: Check out prismatic's stuff. I don't know how it works with the compojure routing system though.
20:43	dbasch	seangrove: you mean fnhouse?
20:43	seangrove	Yeah, that and Schema
20:44	bob2	you could use it with liberator
20:44	bob2	if you have the patience
20:46	dbasch	seangrove: this guy is doing it with schema https://github.com/metosin/compojure-api/
20:46	dbasch	there should be one preferred way to do these things though
20:47	crocket	arrdem, How good is clojure compared to other general purpose languages?
20:47	seangrove	crocket: ~7ish
20:47	crocket	7ish?
20:47	seangrove	crocket: Often times blue though
20:47	timsg	arrdem, hiredman: thanks
20:47	dbasch	bob2: liberator seems like overkill for this
20:48	crocket	My company is a java/javascript shop, which is depressing.
20:49	crocket	seangrove, Your analogies don't really sink in my mind.
20:50	crocket	So how good is clojure?
20:50	arrdem	well, fellow lurkers, it seems that we warranted an upgrade! someone saw fit to send us a technically competent troll rather than a help vampire!
20:52	nightfly	crocket: Give it a try
20:52	nightfly	Made a judgement about it on your own
20:52	nightfly	If you've never worked with a lisp before it will probably be a very interesting experience for you
20:57	gtuckerkellogg	clojure+emacs+cider is awesome, but I could really use an Explain It Like I’m Six explanation of integrating clojurescript
20:58	gtuckerkellogg	or is it Explain it Like I'm Five? Anyway, the point stands
21:00	`szx	gtuckerkellogg: how about one of these? https://github.com/magomimmo/modern-cljs https://github.com/swannodette/lt-cljs-tutorial http://swannodette.github.io/2013/11/07/clojurescript-101/
21:03	gtuckerkellogg	ooh, i hadn't seen the port of the lighttable tutorial
21:03	bob2	arrdem, clojure is moving up in the world!
21:03	gtuckerkellogg	@thanks `szx
21:03	`szx	np
21:06	technomancy	gtuckerkellogg: I wrote the original code behind cider and I'm still confused by all the stuff that comes up when people try to debug their cljs repls
21:07	gtuckerkellogg	that's reassuring :)
21:25	arrdem	bob2: :D
21:33	Rosnec	I just had a pretty cool idea for a function, which may or may not exist already
21:34	Rosnec	it would be a modified ->, where along the way you can somehow prefix with a keyword
21:34	Rosnec	and it returns a mapping of all of those keywords, to the evaluated form that comes after it
21:35	Rosnec	so something like this...
21:36	Rosnec	(->' x f :first g :second h) => {:first (g (f x)), :second (h (g (f x)))}
21:36	Rosnec	it would let you use threading, but store intermediate values along the way
21:36	Rosnec	the only problem I see would be the fact that keywords are functions
21:37	Rosnec	so that would conflict with how threading works
21:37	Rosnec	but perhaps there's some way to get around that
21:37	arrdem	Rosnec: I think that zipmap and juxt are right up your alley...
21:37	Rosnec	I've actually never really looked too much into those two, so I don't really know how they work
21:38	Rosnec	I should probably learn, though
21:39	arrdem	,(doc fnmap
21:39	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
21:39	arrdem	,(doc fnmap)
21:39	clojurebot	No entiendo
21:39	arrdem	,(doc fmap)
21:39	clojurebot	No entiendo
21:40	arrdem	,(defn -:> [v & pairs] (let [pairs (partition 2 pairs) keys (map first pairs) fns (map second pairs)] (zipmap ((apply juxt fns) v) keys)))
21:40	clojurebot	#'sandbox/-:>
21:40	arrdem	,(-:> 3 :+ inc :- dec)
21:40	clojurebot	{2 :-, 4 :+}
21:41	arrdem	I got it backwards but that's the idea :P
21:41	arrdem	,(defn -:> [v & pairs] (let [pairs (partition 2 pairs) keys (map first pairs) fns (map second pairs)] (zipmap keys ((apply juxt fns) v))))
21:41	clojurebot	#'sandbox/-:>
21:41	arrdem	,(-:> 3 :+ inc :- dec)
21:41	clojurebot	{:- 2, :+ 4}
21:41	arrdem	HAH
21:41	arrdem	aaaand that's my first use of juxt in anger :D
21:42	Rosnec	awesome, arrdem
21:43	Rosnec	what happens if I do this:
21:43	Rosnec	,(-:> 3 inc :+ inc :- dec)
21:43	clojurebot	{#<core$inc clojure.core$inc@1a955d8> nil}
21:43	arrdem	it breaks just like you'd expect...
21:43	Rosnec	yeah
21:44	Rosnec	you could always do what you do in lets anyway
21:44	Rosnec	,(-:> 3 :_ inc :_ inc :+ inc :- dec)
21:44	clojurebot	{:- 2, :+ 4, :_ 4}
21:44	Rosnec	treat _ as trash
21:44	Rosnec	I thought this might be useful in lets anyway
21:45	Rosnec	you could thread through a bunch of functions, and destructure it in the let binding
21:45	Rosnec	or I guess any binding
21:46	Rosnec	well, I'm saving that function
21:46	Rosnec	I might as well use it in the piece of code that made me think of that
21:48	arrdem	hum... got a better name for it than -:>
21:49	arrdem	juxt->
21:51	Rosnec	well thank you for that, arrdem
21:51	Rosnec	and actually, now I'm thinking I shouldn't use it in that snippet of code
21:51	Rosnec	but I'll definitely save it for later
21:51	arrdem	T_T
21:51	arrdem	:P
21:52	Rosnec	I would basically need it to be able to fork into multiple ->'s
21:52	Rosnec	because I need to call two different functions on the first form
21:53	Rosnec	so it'd actually be simpler to just write them out one-by-one
21:53	Rosnec	at least in this case
21:56	Rosnec	if there isn't, there should really be a way to destructure & [key val]*
21:56	Rosnec	which would basically use partition 2 in that case on the & pairs
21:56	Rosnec	or to put that better
21:57	Rosnec	instead of doing (fn [& pairs] (partition 2 pairs))
21:57	Rosnec	you could do (fn [& [key val]*] ... crap what would you even refer to it by?
21:58	Rosnec	maybe this won't work
21:58	Rosnec	I just think it would make the documentation more readable
21:59	Rosnec	although I guess you could just modify the arg list it shows in the doc
22:24	TravisD	Or you could, like, pass in a map
22:26	TravisD	Heh, unnecessary and delayed sarcasm is the greatest
22:31	cbp	I have a bunch of .class files in a jar how do I go about putting them on clojars?
22:33	seangrove	"Right?"
22:35	technomancy	cbp: you can scp a jar up
22:35	technomancy	actually wait no
22:35	technomancy	you can use `lein deploy` on any random old jar
22:35	technomancy	jar+pom that is
22:38	cbp	Ok well I'm not entirely sure how to make a pom for a bunch of protobuffers but ill try
22:38	cbp	thanks :-P
22:46	cbp	java.lang.NullPointerException
22:46	cbp	for a second I thought it would be easy
23:12	cbp	I'm getting an error when I scp to clojars https://www.refheap.com/76236
23:13	cbp	My pom is this https://www.refheap.com/76233
23:13	cbp	Any pointers?
23:16	beamso	is there an issue in that the artifact id has no capital letters but the .jar does?
23:17	cbp	If I remove the capital letter from the .jar it then complains that it expected a jar with a capital letter
23:17	beamso	ouch
23:23	dbasch	cbp: I used a pom based on this and it worked https://github.com/ato/clojars-web/wiki/POM
23:33	cbp	....
23:35	cbp	I've been modifying a copy of the pom which im not actually using in the scp and wondering why my changes do nothing haha
23:35	cbp	dbasch: thanks
23:35	cbp	It worked finally
23:36	dbasch	haha
23:37	derek_c	newbie question: I'm trying to write a macro that takes an arbitrary number of expressions, and then just put those expressions in a list and return the list
23:37	derek_c	so something like: (mymacro 1 2 3) => [:some_other_stuff 1 2 3]
23:37	derek_c	how do I do that?
23:37	cddr	why must it be a macro?
23:38	derek_c	cddr: it doesn't have to
23:39	cddr	In that case, I think you just need a variadic fn. For example (fn [& args] (concat [:some-other-stuff] args))
23:42	cddr	If you get to choose datomic for persistence, and clojurescript for the client, would you just propagate the datomic info model all the way down to the app?
23:43	derek_c	cddr: thanks
23:44	cddr	Or is there still benefits to be had in building a conventional "REST" API
23:44	derek_c	when a macro and a function do the exact some thing, does it make sense to choose the macro because it saves you a function call?
23:45	beamso	cddr: i'd still build the REST API.
23:45	beamso	derek_c: it is seen as better form to only use macros when necessary
23:45	cddr	derek_c: I'd always prefer a function because they are more composable
23:46	derek_c	beamso: I see, thanks
23:46	derek_c	cddr: why?
23:50	bbloom	seangrove: still there?
23:50	cddr	derek_c: Paul Graham has a chapter on it in "On Lisp": http://dunsmor.com/lisp/onlisp/onlisp_12.html
23:51	seangrove	bbloom: Yeah, finishing up some stuff, but a bit burnt out. Might have some visual stuff you might enjoy soon though from some ideas that I've been able to pull off
23:52	bbloom	seangrove: heh ok awesome, well let me know tomorrow or something
23:52	bbloom	seangrove: i'm beat now
23:52	derek_c	is there a function that can sort of take things out of a list? I mean, instead of doing (concat [1 2 3] [4 5 6]), I want to do [1 2 3 (something [4 5 6])]. is that possible?
23:54	cddr	What is "something" a function that you indent to pass [4 5 6] to?
23:55	seangrove	bbloom: Sounds good, will do
23:55	seangrove	bbloom: As a hint, it's another "oh, he's crazy, that'd take a ton of work" => "oh, that's possible, and kind of handy"
23:55	derek_c	cddr: yeah
23:55	derek_c	so [1 2 3 (something [4 5 6])] would return [1 2 3 4 5 6]
23:56	bbloom	seangrove: yeah that's not a hint
23:56	Jaood	,(into [1 2 3] [4 5 6])
23:56	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4 5 ...]