#clojure – 2014-04-07

2014-04-07

01:19	kras	How do I control the number of parallel threads using pmap?
01:20	kras	Lets say I have 80 parallel jobs but want to use a pool of 10 workers only i.e, 10 threads at a time
01:24	`szx	kras: https://github.com/TheClimateCorporation/claypoole
01:41	arrdem	hum... so I have this handy dandy xsd schema file... is there a toolkit that will allow me to generate record definitions and an appropriate data.xml importer from it?
02:16	miseria	"el deseo de vivir un millon de años, me obligan a buscar y matar la muerte, antes que ella me convierta en calavera" bienvenidos: http://castroruben.com temo_a_un_ser_sin_rival
02:18	deadghost	noprompt, how far as you along with sass for garden; I'll help out if I can
02:19	deadghost	*are
02:19	noprompt	deadghost: not very far. i've been hung up on other stuff at the moment. but it's pretty easy to hack on.
02:20	deadghost	noprompt, is it up on github?
02:22	noprompt	deadghost: yeah, https://github.com/noprompt/thorn
02:22	noprompt	deadghost: if you want me to explain more msg me
02:22	deadghost	email or pm?
02:22	noprompt	pm is fine
03:56	sm0ke	if i have some static enums define in an inner class with weird name like org.my.com.Abcdefghijk$Lmnop
03:56	sm0ke	and i want to use enums inside a condp =
03:57	sm0ke	how do i avoid Abcdefghijk$Lmnop/ENUM1 ...
03:57	opqdonut	have a clojure file that defines nicer names for them
03:58	sm0ke	why doesnt clojure allows import *
03:58	opqdonut	you can write a macro to do that :P
03:59	sm0ke	bleh
04:22	ambrosebs	instaparse case for parsing multi-line C-style comments?
04:36	ambrosebs	<MultiLineComment> ::= '/' InsideMultiLineComment '*/'
04:36	ambrosebs	<InsideMultiLineComment> ::= !( '/' \| '/' ) (#'.' \| LineTerminator) \| MultiLineComment
04:36	ambrosebs	from https://github.com/Engelberg/instaparse/blob/master/docs/ExperimentalFeatures.md#auto-whitespace
06:48	dsrx	weasel users - new 0.2.0 release includes support for clojurescript 2202
06:53	whodidthis	instaparse is such amaze
07:29	devn	wow. so parse.
07:29	devn	such insta.
07:46	pradeepc_	Hello how can i check if an element exists in a vector.
07:47	beamso	,(contains? [1 2 3 4] 3)
07:48	clojurebot	true
07:48	opqdonut	nope
07:48	opqdonut	,(contains? [:a :b :c :d] 3)
07:48	clojurebot	true
07:48	beamso	ouch
07:48	opqdonut	contains? checks whether the index is valid, i.e. whether you have a valid key
07:48	ambrosebs	,(some #{:a} [:a :b :c])
07:48	clojurebot	:a
07:48	opqdonut	yep, that's the right one
07:49	opqdonut	but it doesn't work for finding a nil, unfortunately
07:49	AimHere	If you're doing that a lot, you might want to consider switching to a set or a map instead, of course
07:49	ambrosebs	,(some (some-fn nil? false? #{:a}) foo)
07:49	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: foo in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
07:50	opqdonut	:)
07:52	pradeepc_	AimHere: I want to check the ip of each client request and block if it exists in the blacklist.
07:52	opqdonut	yeah use a set for that
07:52	AimHere	Unless you have a good reason for them to be ordered, then go with a set
07:53	ambrosebs	,(contains? #{:foo :bar} :foo)
07:53	clojurebot	true
07:54	opqdonut	,(#{"123" "456"} "123")
07:54	clojurebot	"123"
07:54	AimHere	Given what an IP address is, there might be some sort of funky fast bespoke data structure that you can knock up that's more efficient
07:56	ambrosebs	I prefer contains.
07:56	pradeepc_	AimHere: can you point me somewhere.
07:56	ambrosebs	unless the operator is a set literal
07:57	AimHere	I can't, no. That was just a random thought popping into my head. I recommend you go with the set first, because it'll be quick and easy to knock up; if there's performance problems then consider looking up how grown-ups optimize their IP blacklists.
07:58	beamso	wouldn't people use network addresses and submasks to optimise?
07:58	pradeepc_	AimHere ambrosebs Thanks.
08:08	sm0ke	,(.getConstructor Integer Integer)
08:08	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Class cannot be cast to [Ljava.lang.Class;>
08:09	clgv	sm0ke: you need an array of classes instead of a class
08:09	gfredericks	,(.getConstructor Integer (into-array [Integer]))
08:09	clojurebot	#<NoSuchMethodException java.lang.NoSuchMethodException: java.lang.Integer.<init>(java.lang.Integer)>
08:09	sm0ke	hmm
08:09	gfredericks	,(.getConstructor Integer (into-array [Long]))
08:09	clojurebot	#<NoSuchMethodException java.lang.NoSuchMethodException: java.lang.Integer.<init>(java.lang.Long)>
08:09	gfredericks	,(.getConstructor Integer (into-array [Integer/TYPE]))
08:09	clojurebot	#<Constructor public java.lang.Integer(int)>
08:09	sm0ke	what da..?
08:09	gfredericks	Integer/TYPE is the type of primitive ints
08:10	gfredericks	compare:
08:10	gfredericks	,(type (make-array 1 Integer))
08:10	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to java.lang.Class>
08:10	gfredericks	,(type (make-array Integer 1))
08:10	clojurebot	[Ljava.lang.Integer;
08:10	gfredericks	,(type (make-array Integer/TYPE 1))
08:10	clojurebot	[I
08:11	clgv	,(.getCanonicalName (type (make-array Integer/TYPE 1)))
08:11	clojurebot	"int[]"
08:11	sm0ke	ok so i have a use case where i define a record and wont too lookup its constructor lets say
08:11	sm0ke	,(defrecord MyRec [a b])
08:11	clojurebot	sandbox.MyRec
08:11	clgv	,(.getCanonicalName (type (make-array Integer 1)))
08:11	clojurebot	"java.lang.Integer[]"
08:12	clgv	,(.getConstructor MyRec (into-array [Object Object]))
08:12	clojurebot	#<Constructor public sandbox.MyRec(java.lang.Object,java.lang.Object)>
08:12	sm0ke	,(.getConstructor (Class/forName "sandbox.MyRec") Object Object)
08:12	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: getConstructor for class java.lang.Class>
08:12	sm0ke	aha
08:12	sm0ke	thanks clgv
08:12	sm0ke	,(.getConstructor (Class/forName "sandbox.MyRec") (into-array [Object Object]))
08:12	clojurebot	#<Constructor public sandbox.MyRec(java.lang.Object,java.lang.Object)>
08:12	sm0ke	just checking :D
08:13	sm0ke	so why isnt Object/TYPE
08:13	clgv	there is no primitive object ;)
08:15	sm0ke	,(Integer. (Integer. 1))
08:15	clojurebot	1
08:15	sm0ke	,(.getConstructor Integer (into-array [Integer]))
08:15	clojurebot	#<NoSuchMethodException java.lang.NoSuchMethodException: java.lang.Integer.<init>(java.lang.Integer)>
08:16	sm0ke	,(.getConstructor Integer (into-array [Integer/TYPE]))
08:16	clojurebot	#<Constructor public java.lang.Integer(int)>
08:16	sm0ke	wtf
08:17	sm0ke	am is missing something here?
08:17	sm0ke	am i*
08:17	clgv	sm0ke: you are missing autoboxing and autounboxing
08:17	ambrosebs	http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/lang/Integer.html?is-external=true#constructor_summary
08:18	sm0ke	sneaky
08:18	sm0ke	makes sense
08:18	sm0ke	thanks
08:19	sm0ke	so java is dynamically type to some sense
08:19	sm0ke	typed*
08:19	beamso	i wouldn't say that
08:20	sm0ke	int and Integer are different types!
08:20	beamso	it's more that Integer came after int
08:20	beamso	and the JVM attempts to help you go between the two, but you can get a NPE in certain circumstances (i.e. Integer -> int)
08:22	sm0ke	,(.newInstance (.getConstructor (Class/forName "sandbox.MyRec") (into-array [Object Object])) 1 2)
08:22	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: sandbox.MyRec>
08:23	clgv	sm0ke: no. afaik the compiler inserts code for you to do the (un-)boxing of Integer/ints
08:24	clgv	your session namespace probably expired
08:25	sm0ke	,(defrecord MyRec [a b])
08:25	clojurebot	sandbox.MyRec
08:25	sm0ke	,(.newInstance (.getConstructor (Class/forName "sandbox.MyRec") (into-array [Object Object])) 1 2)
08:25	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: newInstance for class java.lang.reflect.Constructor>
08:25	sm0ke	,(.newInstance (.getConstructor (Class/forName "sandbox.MyRec") (into-array [Object Object])) (into-array [1 2]))
08:25	clojurebot	#sandbox.MyRec{:a 1, :b 2}
08:29	sm0ke	(inc clgv)
08:29	lazybot	⇒ 15
08:31	clgv	:D
09:18	lunk	hello, how can i take two seq's of equal length, one of digits and one of booleans, and emit from digits when the corresponding boolean is true?
09:18	lunk	for loops are doing cross products
09:21	tbaldridge	arrdem: ping
09:22	arrdem	tbaldridge: good morning...
09:22	tbaldridge	arrdem: you had a question?
09:25	arrdem	tbaldridge: enjoyed your c.t.a(.jvm) talk, only thing that really stuck out to me was your comments about a potential SSA layer below or beyond c.t.a. What's the activity there? Not a project I'm aware of.
09:26	TEttinger	,(let [digits [1 2 3] bools [true false true]] (filter number? (map #(if %1 %2) bools digits))) ; lunk
09:26	clojurebot	(1 3)
09:27	tbaldridge	arrdem: I've threatened to write it, that's about it. core.async uses a form of SSA, but I'd like to pull that out and make it an actual library. Any non-bytecode output platform could possibly take advantage of it.
09:27	mdrogalis	SSA?
09:27	arrdem	mdrogalis: static single assignment
09:28	mdrogalis	arrdem: Thanks.
09:28	arrdem	mdrogalis: it's a ... style of bytecode, typically register machine modeling which makes some compiler analysis techniques much simpler to use.
09:28	tbaldridge	clojurebot: SSA is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_single_assignment
09:28	clojurebot	In Ordnung
09:28	TEttinger	In Ordnung
09:28	TEttinger	[06:25;32] * hoeck has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
09:28	TEttinger	[06:25;41] * si
09:28	arrdem	s/bitecode/compiler internal representation/g
09:28	TEttinger	dammit
09:28	lunk	TEttinger: yes!
09:28	tbaldridge	for once Wikipedia's view of something is actually quite nice
09:28	TEttinger	clojurebot: SSA \|is\| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_single_assignment
09:28	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
09:29	TEttinger	hm
09:29	mdrogalis	Thanks for the info. Neat.
09:30	arrdem	tbaldridge: I guess my only issue with that is it seems like the kind of "only updated here" or "never updated" proofs you could do on values given a SSA structure you could probably do on the normal t.a tree.
09:30	arrdem	not that I'm really opposed to reimplementing more of LLVM in Clojure for Clojure...
09:31	lunk	TEttinger: clever, i knew i was going down the wrong path. TY sir
09:31	tbaldridge	arrdem: yeah, I mean it's super useful for core.async as I basically take the SSA and emit it as a case+lets to create the state machine
09:31	TEttinger	no prob lunk
09:32	tbaldridge	But I think it could be useful for emitting to platforms that don't have "everything as an expression". For example, PyPy's RPython writes SSA code as C
09:32	arrdem	tbaldridge: yeah I'm reading that now. slick!
10:00	Bronsa	Is there a good reason why `some` doesn't take multiple colls?
10:01	Bronsa	I find myself doing (some true? (map pred c1 c2)) quite often
10:03	AimHere	Bronsa, what's the obvious interpretation of (some foo? a b c) ?
10:03	AimHere	That question broke him, evidently.
10:04	opqdonut	as he said, (some true? (map foo? a b c))
10:04	opqdonut	I think it's weird that map is multi-arity but e.g. some and filter are not
10:04	AimHere	So you have to add in another function as well as the extra collections
10:04	AimHere	It's not obvious to me
10:04	Bronsa	AimHere: sorry emacs crashed
10:04	opqdonut	AimHere: no, the foo? just gets passed multiple arguments
10:05	Bronsa	AimHere: look at the source of some
10:05	Bronsa	it's pretty straightforward to implement that for multiple colls
10:05	opqdonut	the true? is just a way of implementing it
10:05	Bronsa	just add another arity that calls pred on (first c1) (first c2)
10:05	AimHere	Ah, sorry, not thinking clearly
10:06	AimHere	But then, if I was to see (some pred? a b c), I could also read it as (some pred? (concat a b c)
10:06	Bronsa	AimHere: no, that follows the same pattern as e.g. map
10:07	Bronsa	(map f a b c) applies f to (first a) (first b) (first c)
10:07	AimHere	That's your intuition, though some doesn't act like 'map' to my mind
10:07	AimHere	some takes a pred and a collection and spits out a member of that collection. Looks more like nth to me!
10:08	Bronsa	AimHere: it doesn't spit out a member of the collection
10:08	Bronsa	it spits out the result of calling f to a member of that collection
10:08	Bronsa	,(some inc (range))
10:08	clojurebot	1
10:09	AimHere	Fair enough, but it's unlike map in some ways
10:09	AimHere	Yours is one interpretation, but not the only one. It's non-obvious
10:09	Bronsa	sure, I was just drawing a parallel
11:15	ambrosebs	any tips for figuring out where instaparse gets stuck if it overflows the heap? is there a "current token" variable?
11:19	bbloom	ambrosebs: isn't "parses" lazy? you might be able to see some ambiguity if you just print the parses stream until it does
11:19	bbloom	(note: i've only used instaparse for very simple use cases and haven't had to debug any grammars yet)
11:20	ambrosebs	bbloom: ah I'll try
11:34	zeeshanlakhani	If anyone's done work w/ test.check or double.check, how could I write a generator that needed to combine two types... one gen/string and the other a regex on that string, for example?
11:34	reiddraper	zeeshanlakhani: how specifically do you want to combine them?
11:35	reiddraper	zeeshanlakhani: more than likely you'll want to use gen/fmap or gen/bind
11:35	zeeshanlakhani	hey reid! Yeah, I was trying to get it to work w/ gen/bind, but in the midst of trying to generate them from prismatic schema's s/both
11:36	zeeshanlakhani	if I return two separate generators, i should just be able to combine them w/ gen bind?
11:37	reiddraper	zeeshanlakhani: gen/bind lets you take the randomly generated value from one generator and make a new generator out of it. fmap allows you to apply a function to a value generated. so really just depends on what you want to do
11:37	reiddraper	zeeshanlakhani: maybe you could describe in prose what you want
11:38	zeeshanlakhani	Yeah, the basics of what I want is that I have from a schemata a type that needs to be both a string and a string that fits a certain reg. expression. I just want to generate a set of samples that apply to both those types.
11:39	zeeshanlakhani	I feel like I'm saying that I need a generator that's aware of the constraint of an input generator
11:40	reiddraper	zeeshanlakhani: hmm
11:40	zeeshanlakhani	Does that make any sense? :)
11:41	reiddraper	zeeshanlakhani: not quite sure i'm following. do you have these generators already written? if so, can you be more explicit about how you want to compose them
11:42	xsyn	are incanter's datasets indexed out of the gate?
11:43	xsyn	someone was describing R's dataframes, saying that they're really efficient due to their indexing
11:43	xsyn	I was interested if incanter had the same functionality
11:43	xsyn	s/if/as to whether/
11:48	ambrosebs	bbloom: phew parses is pretty amazing
11:48	bbloom	yup!
11:52	zeeshanlakhani	To be honest reid, the more I look at our prismatic schema-uses, the more I'm seeing a type that's more like a field's value will be both a map and a non-empty collection, which, if that's the case gen/such-that will be exactly what i need (predicate and gen) for most cases and fmap for others. Think I was over-complicating the situation :D
11:52	pdurbin	xsyn: due to their indexing?
11:53	reiddraper	zeeshanlakhani: cool. also take a look at gen/not-empty, which is a prewritten (such-that not-empty ...)
11:55	zeeshanlakhani	yep, will do. Thank you reid! So much fun using test.check
11:55	reiddraper	zeeshanlakhani: np, and happy to hear :)
11:57	ambrosebs	instaparse.core/parses + clojure.data/diff = holy crpa
12:01	bbloom	ambrosebs: interactively debugging ambiguity beats the pants off cryptic shift/reduce errors, huh?
12:03	ambrosebs	bbloom: never used a parser in my life
12:03	ambrosebs	apparently a great place to start
12:05	bbloom	ambrosebs: traditional parser generators only parse a subset of CFG. you get a weird error message if you accidentally create a grammar that isn't in the subset.... but the source of the issue is usually very far from the symptom
12:05	gtrak	Is it just me or is the lifecycle of core.async channels and implications a little unclear and discomforting? Trying to figure out how to test a small thing, considering implementing it with callbacks instead, but maybe I'm missing something fundamental, I have no idea :-). If I could instrument which channel(s) is/are getting blocked, then that would help immensely.
12:06	ambrosebs	bbloom: ah that sucks
12:06	bbloom	ambrosebs: yeah, trade off is that instaparse's generalized algorithm can be very memory hungry
12:08	bbloom	but in practice it's not a big deal b/c you can debug your grammar interactively, find sources of ambiguity, excessive left recursion, etc, and eliminate those
12:08	bbloom	it's kinda like dynamic vs static typing ;-)
12:08	ambrosebs	:)
12:09	ambrosebs	I assume ambiguity is a severe performance problem
12:10	bbloom	so i dunno enough about instaparse's internals, but it doesn't have to be a perf problem
12:11	bbloom	but my understanding is that instaparse's algorithm ALWAYS supports back tracking
12:11	bbloom	which means high memory overhead for the parse context, to support that backtracking
12:11	bbloom	in general, you need most of that context saved for unlimited lookahead
12:12	bbloom	i'd really like to see tools to help you prove/falsify properties about grammars, like verifying that a grammar is LL(N)
12:39	doky	hello is there any option to concat string in regexp ? and produce a map with it ? somethng like (map #(% (re-find #%" [\w ]+" "-p password -u username")) ("-p", "-u") ) ?
12:42	doky	what results to {:-p "password" :-u "username"}
12:42	justin_smith	doky that question is confusing
12:42	justin_smith	first off, map does not produce a hashmap, it maps over some input
12:42	TimMc	doky: No, but Pattern has a quote-for-regex method, and for this use-case you probably want clojopts anyhow.
12:43	justin_smith	yeah, it looks like clojopts may be what you want https://github.com/amalloy/clojopts
12:44	doky	TimMc: but i need to parse string in cycle .. if no .. a can call different regexp and assoc results to map
12:56	noprompt	the latest version of clojurescript randomly throws wacky errors.
12:56	noprompt	java.lang.Exception: JSON error (unexpected character): ^@
12:57	noprompt	like, uh, what?
12:57	noprompt	dnolen_: ^
12:57	hiredman	looks like a null character
12:57	dnolen_	noprompt: more details needed
12:57	noprompt	i don't even know if i could give you any
12:58	noprompt	before that it was
12:58	noprompt	java.lang.IndexOutOfBoundsException:
12:58	noprompt	and no vectors were used.
12:58	noprompt	or at least not in the part i changed.
12:58	noprompt	it could be one of the libraries though.
12:58	AimHere	These errors don't look any weirder than normal clojure/javascript errors
12:58	noprompt	but this wasn't happening before with the same code.
12:58	hiredman	noprompt: are you using cljsbuild auto build?
12:58	noprompt	sometimes it's just a matter of adding some whitespace and saving the file again and everythign compiles fine.
12:59	noprompt	hiredman: yes.
12:59	hiredman	noprompt: check for multiple autobuild processes
13:00	noprompt	hiredman: yeah, i'm familiar with "those" errors. there's only one cljsbuild process rolling though.
13:00	dnolen_	noprompt: paste a stack trace and maybe I'll see something
13:01	noprompt	dnolen_: https://www.refheap.com/73054
13:04	dnolen_	noprompt: looks like it's blowing up on the source maps, that what we use clojure.data.json for
13:04	noprompt	dnolen_: you can ignore the [cljsbuild] that's just a tag we have for the output
13:05	noprompt	dnolen_: any clue what might cause it?
13:05	dnolen_	noprompt: look at the json is it valid?
13:07	noprompt	dnolen_: looking into it.
13:11	seangrove	bbloom: I've been thinking about it, I'm pretty sold on the idea of Auckland-style layout model. With the right UI it makes a lot more sense for developers than raw iOS-style constraints
13:12	bbloom	seangrove: yup. then the next though that follows is that you that to be the default top-level layout, but you'll still want hierarchical layout managers
13:14	seangrove	bbloom: I control the top-level layout of these regions, but delegate layout within those regions to some other layout system?
13:14	bbloom	seangrove: right, since some layouts are super simple and make sense like "stack layout"
13:15	bbloom	seangrove: why bother with a constraint solver if you're just going to do y+=height ?
13:15	noprompt	auckland-style?
13:15	bbloom	seangrove: and some layouts are non-linear, so a linear constraint solver isn't a good plan at all
13:15	bbloom	seangrove: i'll let you explain
13:15	bbloom	(curious to hear your take on it anyway)
13:17	seangrove	bbloom: Been explaining it in person quite a bit, haven't yet over irc
13:17	seangrove	noprompt: Reasonably simple idea - have you worked with a designer and see how they sketch things out in PS or Sketch?
13:18	noprompt	seangrove: yes. myself.
13:18	noprompt	seangrove: well, and other designer friends.
13:18	bbloom	seangrove: and now you're doing customer development!
13:18	noprompt	seangrove: i was a designer a long time before i was a programmer.
13:18	seangrove	bbloom: It's in no way my product :P
13:18	seangrove	noprompt: Nice. So what I've seen is designers settings higher-level constraints on a design by defining regions
13:19	seangrove	Essentially starting with guidelines
13:19	noprompt	ha, yeah. just drag one from the ruler.
13:19	seangrove	Exactly
13:19	noprompt	and then snap elements to it.
13:19	bbloom	seangrove: instant understanding. that's how you know you've got a good user mental model ;-)
13:20	seangrove	So for a top-level layout, you define these regions, and then set rules about them "This region in the middle is always this height, but it can expand in this direction if necessary, figure it out for me", etc
13:20	bbloom	i humbly request that you retune your classifier from "crazy homeless man on street corner" more towards "mo fuckin' profit"
13:20	bbloom	er prophet
13:20	bbloom	(dec spelling)
13:20	lazybot	⇒ -1
13:20	seangrove	Freudian slip??
13:20	lazybot	seangrove: Definitely not.
13:20	bbloom	~botsnack
13:20	clojurebot	Thanks! Can I have chocolate next time
13:21	seangrove	lazybot, I <3 you
13:21	bbloom	dammit. wrong bot
13:21	seangrove	noprompt: Anyway, you define these regions, and then your components inhabit them
13:21	seangrove	Maybe with another layer of layout managers in between, though
13:22	noprompt	seangrove: right. so does that involve a constraint solver or is it lower on the totum pole of how much shit i have to read to grok how it all works. :-P
13:22	bbloom	noprompt: it may or may not be built on top of a constraint solver
13:22	seangrove	noprompt: So you can imagine as a designer I set the guidelines, set the rules, strt dragging in your components into the regions, setting their data bindings to your app state, and then, finally, applying styling
13:22	bbloom	ideally, yes, but most use cases can be implemented by solving trivial proportions
13:23	seangrove	noprompt: No we can reason about layout, app-state data, component behavior, and styling separately
13:23	bbloom	you may want to say "this region keeps a 4:3 aspect ratio" and the layout evaluator may decide to implement that as a proper linear constraint
13:23	noprompt	right
13:27	seangrove	noprompt: But if you have those pieces in place, you can mould apps like you're working with clay - pieces that do what you want (layout, transform data, or style), but no more, so you can componse them together
13:28	oinksoft	is anything available for or built into clojure for managing workers? like supervisor/gen_server in OTP?
13:28	seangrove	noprompt: I'm starting to see that as the holy-grail of UI programming.
13:28	oinksoft	or are clojure people using threads for this? immutable data structures are friendly (essential) for the OTP design
13:29	oinksoft	so i thought perhaps something similar to OTP existed
13:29	technomancy	sadly there's nothing like OTP (anywhere)
13:29	technomancy	except OTP itself
13:30	technomancy	but yeah, there are typically no problems with using threads for that kind of thing
13:30	oinksoft	ok, thanks technomancy
13:30	tbaldridge	and when you do, there is core.async </shameless ad>
13:31	gtrak	tbaldridge: I'm having a hard time visualizing what's going wrong in my core.async impl, are there any sort of introspection facilities that might be useful for debugging? I saw in the impls there's some ways to get counts on the buffers and things.
13:31	oinksoft	tbaldridge: is that battle tested stuff?
13:31	oinksoft	tbaldridge: to the extent that goroutines are battle-tested ..
13:32	seangrove	oinksoft: Nothing in the Clojure world will be as battle-tested as OTP ;)
13:32	oinksoft	seangrove: well yea :p
13:32	oinksoft	i just meant, is core.async experimental or people are using this for real work?
13:32	bmabey	oinksoft: we've been using core.async in production on the server almost as soon as it came out and we haven't had many issues at all
13:33	oinksoft	bmabey: nice! anything to be aware of? i do like the look of this api
13:33	technomancy	it's not really trying to solve the same problems as OTP though, is it?
13:33	technomancy	or rather, it targets a small subset of the problems
13:33	bmabey	I have wanted OTP like supervisors with core.asycn in the past
13:33	gtrak	I guess I could maybe write a macro that creates a gensym and stacktrace for each channel instance and polls counts once in a while.
13:34	bmabey	sometimes go processes blow up on an unexpected error and I just want them to simply restart
13:34	oinksoft	technomancy: yea, i can see how this would be useful though, so i was curious, it reminded me of goroutines
13:34	bmabey	so having reusable policies to manage those restarts would be helpful
13:35	technomancy	oinksoft: sure, not saying it's not useful =)
13:35	oinksoft	technomancy: i see otp like a padded cell :)
13:36	gtrak	bmabey: I would just wrap the internals in a with-error-fn macro that does a try-catch, used it with println initially.
13:36	gtrak	i guess if you pass in a function, recur wouldn't work.
13:37	gtrak	but that just requires a more complex macro :-)
13:37	seangrove	bbloom dnolen_: I'm contemplating a visit out there the be able to join in some of these mind-blowing conversations ;)
13:38	technomancy	oinksoft: the tooling around distributed async flows is just a lot better in erlang; on the jvm it's a lot more common to have trouble debugging once you give up the ability to get a proper stack trace.
13:38	bmabey	grandy__: right, and that is what I did and moved on :) I never went the next step of extracting it but it seems like a lot of people using core.async would need something like this
13:38	dnolen_	seangrove: you're always welcome to come hang out in Brooklyn with us
13:39	bmabey	oinksoft: you do need to be aware of not-blocking the go-routines. Here is a post explaining it: http://martintrojer.github.io/clojure/2013/07/07/coreasync-and-blocking-io/
13:39	oinksoft	technomancy: yea, the remote debugging capabilities are pretty nice in erlang
13:39	oinksoft	bmabey: so core.async uses all of the go terminology (goroutine, channel, etc.)?
13:40	tbaldridge	hopefully something like OTP is developed at some point for core.async. But as always the question will be what OTP for CSP even means.
13:40	seangrove	dnolen_: Sounds good, I'll start thinking about it a bit then
13:40	bmabey	tbaldridge: yeah, and I'm hoping someone with a lot of experience in both and provide some insight
13:41	tbaldridge	bmabey: sadly I think that's one of the issues...people seem to either be experts with actors or CSP not both :-(
13:41	hiredman	well, microsoft's orleans thing claims not to need otp because of whatever
13:41	bmabey	tbaldridge: I have a friend at google who does a lot of go and he says they just panic, kill the whole process, and let the cluster start things back up again
13:41	gtrak	bmabey: lol, that's encouraging
13:41	hiredman	(but it sort of quacks like otp)
13:41	hiredman	http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/orleans/
13:42	technomancy	bmabey: part of that is just because go is no good at live introspection
13:42	bmabey	technomancy: and fast at starting up
13:42	bbloom	we definitely need something like linked/trees of processes
13:43	gtrak	bbloom: I could imagine a prismatic-graphlike thing that allows for introspection.
13:43	bmabey	bbloom: of course it all comes back to trees for you :P joking aside, I agree
13:44	tbaldridge	and two things (in my mind) that are keeping that from happening in core.async right now are 1) first class processes, 2) the ability to kill a go (requires #1)
13:45	bbloom	we need more introspection in general. don't worry, i'm on it :-)
13:45	gtrak	how can I help?
13:45	bbloom	gtrak: wait patiently for a bit ;-)
13:46	gtrak	besides tiny little one-off macros, that's my usual method for figuring things out :-)
13:46	bbloom	tbaldridge: processes are already reified, what's holding them back from becoming first-class?
13:46	bbloom	tbaldridge: is it just API design?
13:47	bmabey	bbloom: you never get a handle on the process though, just the channel it returns
13:47	bbloom	bmabey: right, but in the implementation they are a state machine object
13:47	tbaldridge	right, and the whole API is callback based so there's nothing there that describes how to terminate a callback, or even if that can be done
13:47	gtrak	what's first-class? I imagine that means a set of lifecycle protocols.
13:48	tbaldridge	any impl I've thought about has had big caveats. For example: "(kill! pid) - kills the process the next time it attempts to read write or alt"
13:48	bmabey	first class means you can assign it to a var, put in a datastructure, return it from a fn, blah, blah
13:48	bbloom	gtrak: first-class means that processes are things you can manipulate in the language directly as any other object/value
13:48	tbaldridge	but that doesn't help at all with a process stuck in a loop.
13:48	bmabey	which you can with core.async's state machines as bbloom as pointed out but the API doesn't return them to allow you to do that
13:49	bbloom	tbaldridge: presumably you can instrument loops to check the kill flag
13:49	bbloom	tbaldridge: may murder perf tho...
13:49	gtrak	ah, so just, more control on the continuum of opaque to transparent?
13:49	tbaldridge	sure...but what does that even mean if you want the same api to work for (thread) ?
13:49	bbloom	gtrak: transparency is orthogonal
13:49	bbloom	,(fn [x] (* x 2))
13:49	bmabey	yeah, (thread) is tricky...
13:49	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval25$fn__26 sandbox$eval25$fn__26@1cbeebb>
13:49	bbloom	^^ that's opaque, but first-class
13:50	bbloom	but in my interpreter, soon to be jit, you'd get something like #eclj.Function{:args [x] :expr (* x 2)} :-)
13:50	bmabey	having the channel that is returned from a go process be linked to said process seems natural.. what if closing that channel would result in the process being killed? is that a horrible idea?
13:50	gtrak	ah
13:51	gtrak	yea, I mean it seems like the channel from a go-block is the 1:1 link, analogous to function-object:semantics
13:51	tbaldridge	bmabey: I don't know yet :-) And whatever happens I need to talk to Rich about all this at some point. And he has the final say on this stuff.
13:51	gtrak	the fact that it's a channel.. doesn't mean that's all it could be.
13:51	bbloom	speaking of, tbaldridge: i'm almost finished separating syntax from the interpreter. there is a shallow "parse"/"analyze" phase & first-class "syntax objects" a la racket
13:52	tbaldridge	bbloom: nice
13:52	bmabey	gtrak: true, a Process protocol could be introduced or something which the returned val impls. as well as the Channel protocol
13:53	bbloom	tbaldridge: it's pretty cool b/c it looks sorta like the traditional analyzer, but there is no recursion. instead, the recursion that exists in eval will (eventually) be intercepted to produce deep ASTs. ie the analyzer will be parse+partial-eval
13:55	gtrak	I've been playing with om, so I'm in the lifecycle protocols mindset :)
13:58	oinksoft	ok, i've got a big question. program abstraction in clojure? in an OOP language, for instance, maybe i have an adapter layer and my API user provides the implementation they desire to my adapter (like a DB adapter). how are API users doing this in clojure?
13:58	oinksoft	i see in some cases people use (binding so define some value for a library
13:59	oinksoft	but at a high level something feels very clumsy here
13:59	justin_smith	oinksoft: multimethods or protocols pretty often
13:59	gtrak	oinksoft: try to avoid binding please :-)
13:59	justin_smith	binding is fragile
13:59	oinksoft	gtrak: yea, it looked very ugly to me
13:59	justin_smith	oinksoft: define a multi or proto in your lib, and then let a user provide an impl
13:59	gtrak	any library that uses it is likely to be making bad assumptions. It's more ok in an app.
14:00	oinksoft	let's say i am designing an API for catching fish. now i don't care how you catch them, you can use a rod and reel, a spear, a net ... is the API user going to call (catch-fish reel-that-implements-fish-catching-protocol)?
14:00	gtrak	they can use reify, extend-type or whatever they like.
14:00	oinksoft	in an OOP langauge I can register this with reel object in some way so i am not passing it around all the time
14:00	justin_smith	oinksoft: yeah, and define catch-fish as a multimethod or a protocol method
14:01	gtrak	oinksoft: you could define an adapter to an existing type with extend-type.
14:01	oinksoft	a frustration i have when doing lots of heavy erlang programming comes when i want to make my API flexible. you use callback modules, but anyway i am blabbering...
14:01	justin_smith	oinksoft: fp is about replacing globals with args - things really work when you do it that way
14:02	oinksoft	justin_smith: yea, this is smeothing i revisit a lot .. api design is so important.
14:02	gtrak	for instance, 'slurp' calls clojure.java.io/reader on its arg, which might be a String, which is a 'final' class, meaning it cannot be extended. in clojure.java.io, it's specified how to handle strings, so the user just has to know that that's the case, and that it'll be treated as a URL :-).
14:02	bbloom	oinksoft: over here in clojureland, we do our data design before we do api design ;-)
14:03	oinksoft	justin_smith: i want to make my program easy to maintain but also easy for the code user. one way i see epeople doing this in clojure is with macros (like sqlkorma does this)
14:03	oinksoft	bbloom: go on ... :)
14:03	gtrak	but you can extend the IOFactory protocol to any object, then it'll be slurpable :-)
14:03	bbloom	oinksoft: take a look at datomic or the clojurescript analyzer or something like that. they are very narrow APIs
14:04	bbloom	oinksoft: datomic has a handful of functions, the cljs analyzer is basically just one "analyze"
14:04	justin_smith	oinksoft: macros can make things easier / cleaner for a specific use, but can make other uses more tedious. Please provide a sensible function only path also.
14:04	bbloom	everything else about the public contract is part of the implicit schema of the data
14:04	tbaldridge	You should start with the data your system is working with, then write functions that manipulate that data, then configure the execution of those functions with more data, and finally (and only if needed) write an actual API/DSL
14:05	oinksoft	tbaldridge: that's really good advice. it's easy to dwell on the API design. you know, fancy paint and stickers on the car :)
14:07	oinksoft	or maybe the steering wheel... b ut you can't steer something that doesn't drive, or uses the wrong gas
14:07	technomancy	hm; only ~300 responses on the leiningen survey. we had more last year.
14:07	mdrogalis	technomancy: I wasn't aware it was even out.
14:08	technomancy	vote early; vote often
14:08	technomancy	no wait, that's something else
14:08	yotsov	technomancy: where was it announced? it seems I am missing some channels
14:08	mdrogalis	Wait! No, I took the survey a while ago. :P
14:08	mdrogalis	Just forgot :)
14:09	mdrogalis	Crisis averted.
14:09	technomancy	yotsov: I posted it to the leiningen and clojure mailing lists a week or two ago
14:09	technomancy	also twitter
14:09	yotsov	technomancy: ok thanks
14:09	`szx	so i'm trying to understand the reasoning behind the choice of seq functions implemented in core.reducers - e.g. i think first isn't there since it offers no benefit over lazyseqs, though not sure why take-while but no drop-while, no map-indexed, etc.?
14:10	`szx	also, any idea why (into [] (r/map identity {:a 1 :b 2})) would work in clojure but not clojurescript?
14:11	justin_smith	`szx: maybe you need to explicitly call seq on the hashmap literal?
14:11	bbloom	clojurebot: working is what does "not working" mean?
14:11	clojurebot	Pardon?
14:11	bbloom	clojurebot: working \|is\| what does "not working" mean?
14:11	clojurebot	I don't understand.
14:12	bbloom	i dunno how to use clojurebot :-P
14:12	`szx	bbloom: Error: No protocol method IReduce.-reduce defined for type cljs.core/PersistentArrayMap: {:a 1, :b 2}
14:12	justin_smith	calling seq on the hashmap should fix that error, yeah
14:12	hiredman	bbloom: the question mark at the end trips it up
14:12	bbloom	clojurebot: working is please define "not working"
14:12	clojurebot	c'est bon!
14:12	bbloom	~working
14:12	clojurebot	working is please define "not working"
14:13	`szx	justin_smith: yeah, it just looks like it should work fine - https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/src/cljs/clojure/core/reducers.cljs#L40
14:13	bbloom	`szx: might be a bug
14:15	`szx	bbloom: yeah, looks like to me
14:16	bbloom	`szx: can you put together a minimal repo case and report it on jira?
14:16	`szx	bbloom: sure. checking to make sure it hasn't already been reported
14:18	`szx	in the meantime, back to my other question - is there a reason some functions are missing from core.reducers or is it just because nobody got to it yet?
14:22	brainkim	Does anyone have a good example project with unit-tests for an http-kit server? I'm trying to figure out if I'm going to have to mock websocket requests.
14:25	mdrogalis	brainkim: Try introducing small, local queues with core.async to get around that.
14:26	amalloy	`szx: i think only one or two additional reducers have been added since the original release of reducers. having attempted to define a couple myself (and had them deferred indefinitely), i'd say there's some question about how to define a reducer rich finds acceptable
14:27	nickmbailey	fa
14:28	brainkim	mdrogalis: That's prboably what I should do. I'm having a lot of trouble creating small functions core.async but that would be really testable.
14:30	mdrogalis	brainkim: Yeah, it works out great because the processor of the request doesn't need to know which thread the request came from
14:33	rtl	gs
14:37	brainkim	mdrogalis: Thanks. That works great. I have a global channel because I don't really know how to structure the request-handlers and shit, but it's making repl-based testing a lot easier.
14:40	mdrogalis	brainkim: Glad to hear it :)
14:40	mdrogalis	brainkim: Try using stuartsierra's Component framework in conjunction with that technique. I've used it more than once so far, and I'm really happy with how it turns out.
14:40	mdrogalis	That way you can use smaller channels and control the lifecycle easier.
14:42	bbloom	,(if-let [[x & y] []] "grumble grumble" "makes sense")
14:42	clojurebot	"grumble grumble"
14:43	justin_smith	,(if-let [[x & y] nil] "grumble grumble" "makes sense")
14:43	clojurebot	"makes sense"
14:43	rasmusto	,(if-let [[x & y] []] [x y "grumble grumble"] "makes sense")
14:43	clojurebot	[nil nil "grumble grumble"]
14:43	rasmusto	,(first '())
14:43	clojurebot	nil
14:44	bbloom	,(when-let [[x] [1 2 3]] x)
14:44	clojurebot	1
14:44	bbloom	,(when-let [[x & _] [1 2 3]] x) ; i'd rather write this
14:44	clojurebot	1
14:44	justin_smith	,(let [[x & y :as z] []] [x y z])
14:44	clojurebot	[nil nil []]
14:44	justin_smith	the :as is what if-let actually sees I think
14:44	justin_smith	even if you don't bind it
14:45	bbloom	shrug maybe... destructuring works great when unconditional, but the sematnics of if-let, when-let, etc are a little flakey and seem like impl-details exposed
14:45	rasmusto	I don't like if-let
14:45	justin_smith	why not expand on the principle of if-let - let-defn for example
14:46	amalloy	bbloom: you seem to be asking for nil-punning for empty vectors? like, [] is truthy, so if-let really has to treat it as such
14:47	amalloy	it can't know whether the destructuring accomplished your goals - it's not pattern matching
14:47	rasmusto	is it that? I thought it was just ##(let [[a & b] nil] [a b]) ; that was the issue
14:47	lazybot	⇒ [nil nil]
14:47	bbloom	amalloy: yeah, it's what justin_smith said about the :as
14:47	bbloom	it makes sense, but it's kinda pattern-matchy & i forget it's not proper pattern matching sometimes
14:47	amalloy	bringing :as into it seems, to me, just to confuse the issue, but i guess if it helps...
14:48	bbloom	amalloy: logically speaking, it's testing the truthiness of the :as value... when i really wish it was testing match success/failure
14:48	amalloy	bbloom: no, it's testing the truthiness of the expression you gave it; it doesn't know anything about :as, because there isn't one
14:49	justin_smith	amalloy: kind of agreed, the rhs is what if-let sees and :as binds, but that rhs has no name or binding so it was a shortcut to just refer to the :as value
14:49	bbloom	amalloy: sure, call it "as" or call it "rhs", same thing
14:51	amalloy	bbloom: it'd be interesting to write a destructurer that returns whether or not each variable was bound successfully. or does that basically require writing most of core.match?
14:51	ghadishayban	Any good solution for lagginess in Emacs/Cider repls when the output is huge?
14:51	amalloy	ghadishayban: clear the output buffer?
14:52	bbloom	amalloy: the bulk of core.match is related to optimizing the decision tree
14:52	mdrogalis	ghadishayban: I think rkneufeld just tweeted about that lol
14:52	amalloy	if a single output is huge, then probably don't output it all at once
14:52	mdrogalis	https://twitter.com/rkneufeld/status/453230902542622720
14:52	ghadishayban	oh wow
14:52	ghadishayban	so the solution is don't
14:52	rkneufeld	Yeppers, I've been using naked lein repl and/or inferior lisp instead.
14:52	amalloy	slime+swank for life
14:53	amalloy	<- trouble-maker
14:53	rkneufeld	I don't know if there is something I'm not doing with Cider to make things better, but it has generally been a pain.
14:53	mdrogalis	I tried it and put it down, just wasn't cutting it for me.
14:54	bbloom	amalloy: you can make indepent design decisions regarding the pattern, the conditional behavior, and the binding behavior
14:54	bbloom	amalloy: our pattern syntax & binding behavior are very simple/nice, but i dislike the conditional behavior
14:55	amalloy	bbloom: i'm not sure i follow. the conditional behavior, if i understand what you mean, is not connected to patterns/bindings at all: if-let is an ordinary if, followed by a pattern-match/binding
14:56	amalloy	you could write one that's a pattern-match/binding followed by some decision based on that, but it's not close to if-let, it's close to core.match
14:56	bbloom	amalloy: yeah, that's a design decision (and a reasonable one)... consider what happens when destructuring fails
14:57	bbloom	,(let [[x] 5] x)
14:57	clojurebot	#<UnsupportedOperationException java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: Long>
14:57	bbloom	in theory, the destructuring could return success or failure instead of just crashing
14:57	bbloom	it's a relatively small change, actually
14:58	amalloy	i'm not sure it's that small, but i agree it'd be an interesting feature (as i did say above)
14:59	bbloom	small impl change, big impact to all code, of course
14:59	bbloom	a naive impl would be pretty slow too compared to the existing approach
15:12	root__	can someone explain recursion ? (defn is-even? [n] (if (= n 0)
15:12	root__	true
15:12	amalloy	root__: www.refheap.com
15:14	root__	https://www.refheap.com/73072 what does "not" do in this case ?
15:15	`szx	,(not true)
15:15	clojurebot	false
15:15	`szx	,(not false)
15:15	clojurebot	true
15:15	cbp	teletubs: it negates the value returned from (is-even? (dec n))
15:16	teletubs	cbp: I am lost, this code work but I don't know why ?
15:17	amalloy	teletubs: think of it in words, as a definition of even: "a number N is even if it is zero, or if N-1 is not even"
15:17	amalloy	now try it on a few samples, by hand: 0, 1, 2, and 3 should be enough to see how it works
15:17	teletubs	amolloy: I did
15:18	amalloy	i mean like on paper or in your head, not typing it into the repl
15:18	amalloy	doing that should help you understand why it works
15:27	trap_exit	consider a url of the form http://localhost:8080/?blah=foo
15:27	trap_exit	how do I read out the "blah=foo" part in clojurescript ?
15:29	dnolen_	(.. js/window -location -search) if you're trying to do this on the current url, or http://docs.closure-library.googlecode.com/git/class_goog_Uri.html
15:29	trap_exit	dnolen_: will read up on that, thanks!
15:33	miseria	"cuando la causa nos enloquece, el efecto nos destruye y el fin continuara siendo un sueño" bienvenidos: http://castroruben.com temo_a_un_ser_sin_rival
15:34	teletubs	amalloy: so its doing something along the lines of 2 -> not 1 -> not not 0 which is true right ?
15:34	amalloy	indeed it is
15:36	teletubs	haha THANKS. My head was begining to spin :)
15:39	Rakko	What's the best choice of text editor integration (especially in-editor REPL, syntax highlighting/indenting support, doc and symbol lookup) for a newbie to Clojure? I'm pretty comfortable with Vim, Emacs, and Eclipse.
15:40	justin_smith	Rakko: if you know all equally, Emacs has the best integration
15:40	Rakko	cool
15:40	bmabey	the others are decent too so you can't go wrong
15:40	Rakko	I have a tiny bit of experience with CL in SLIME
15:40	bmabey	emacs does have the most mindshare however
15:42	teletubs	How about big-integer recursion? https://www.refheap.com/73077
15:43	justin_smith	,(dec (BigInteger. "1")) ; it should just work
15:43	clojurebot	0N
15:44	cbp	teletubs: you don't need to distinguish between long and BigInteger in clojure
15:44	justin_smith	though really there are better ways to check even / odd status than iterating until you hit 0, that is merely a good way to demonstrate recursion, not a good way to do that task
15:44	justin_smith	$source even?
15:44	lazybot	even? is http://is.gd/LyGOJD
15:44	amalloy	&(inc Long/MAX_VALUE) ;; cbp
15:44	lazybot	java.lang.ArithmeticException: integer overflow
15:45	justin_smith	teletubs: see lazybot's link above for the right way
15:46	justin_smith	teletubs: though extending that to bigints (probably by doing modulus) would be interesting
15:47	justin_smith	or maybe a bigint bit-mask if such a thing exists
15:47	amalloy	justin_smith: it works fine for bigints, doesn't it?
15:47	amalloy	an unchecked cast to long should just drop off the top N bits
15:48	cbp	Ok i mean you don't need to use the BigInteger methods when dealing with bigintegers, if your function gets passed a bigint it will work
15:48	justin_smith	,(bit-and 1 (long (BigInteger. "11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111")))
15:48	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Value out of range for long: 11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111>
15:48	justin_smith	amalloy: or what did you have in mind?
15:49	amalloy	,(even? (BigInteger. "11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111"))
15:49	clojurebot	false
15:49	amalloy	,(unchecked-long (BigInteger. "11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111"))
15:49	clojurebot	1857484646311031239
15:49	justin_smith	oh, never mind then, thanks
15:50	cbp	you can just add N to the end to turn it into a bigint :-P
15:54	justin_smith	,(= (BigInteger. (apply str (repeat 226 \1))) 1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111N)
15:54	clojurebot	true
15:56	teletubs	amalloy: What is going on inside of that loop?
15:57	justin_smith	teletubs: do you mean the source to even? - if so, that is not a loop
15:57	amalloy	he means the refheap he pasted earlier
15:57	teletubs	justin_smith: https://www.refheap.com/73077
15:57	amalloy	tail-recursive even
16:08	tbaldridge	oh awesome....tools.cps is getting a re-work with tools.analyzer http://www.chrisfrisz.com/blog/2014/04/06/progress/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
16:09	bbloom	tbaldridge: neat, but i've got my eyes locked on dynamic extent :-)
16:10	tuft_	,(def foo.bar 2)
16:10	clojurebot	#'sandbox/foo.bar
16:10	tuft_	,foo.bar
16:10	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: foo.bar, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
16:10	bbloom	tbaldridge: i'm definitely going to attempt what you suggested w/ JIT-compiling via clojure.core/eval
16:10	rasmusto	,#'sandbox/foo.bar
16:10	clojurebot	#'sandbox/foo.bar
16:10	tuft_	ah ok, thanks
16:11	rasmusto	tuft_: I don't know what I just did
16:11	bbloom	tbaldridge: should be pretty doable to (clojure.core/eval `(fn [] ~(unparse ast)))
16:11	tuft_	tuft: er, actually yeah =)
16:11	rasmusto	,(identity foo.bar)
16:11	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: foo.bar, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
16:11	tuft_	,@#'foo.bar
16:11	clojurebot	2
16:11	tuft_	gross but works
16:11	rasmusto	is it a clojurebot reader thing?
16:12	tuft_	i guess avoid dots in symbol names
16:12	amalloy	you're "not supposed to" use symbols with dots in them
16:12	rasmusto	oh, its looking for a class
16:12	justin_smith	rasmusto: all that will work the same in a repl
16:12	justin_smith	reader rules
16:12	amalloy	justin_smith: not reader, evaluator
16:12	rasmusto	,(def -.-.-.- 2)
16:12	clojurebot	#'sandbox/-.-.-.-
16:12	justin_smith	oh, ok
16:12	amalloy	foo.bar reads as foo.bar
16:13	rasmusto	,@#'-.-.-.-
16:13	clojurebot	2
16:14	justin_smith	is there a matching trick in let?
16:14	sritchie_	justin_smith: what do you mean?
16:15	justin_smith	,(let [... :silence] (apply str (repeat 2 (name ...))))
16:15	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.ClassFormatError: Illegal field name "..." in class sandbox$eval186, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
16:15	justin_smith	#' will not work there clearly
16:15	justin_smith	it's just a weird corner case of course
16:16	michaniskin	is there something like :refer-clojure that i can use in a ns declaration to exclude java mappings? like java.lang.Error is mapped to Error, for instance
16:17	amalloy	michaniskin: no, you're stuck with java.lang afaik
16:17	clojurenewb	hi, anyone know how to group a bunch of selector/transformer pairs to be able to re-use them with laser ?
16:18	michaniskin	amalloy: thanks :/
16:21	justin_smith	clojurenewb: I think you can make a map with selectors as keys and transformers as vals, then use apply
16:21	justin_smith	hmm... that could require a mapcat also
16:21	amalloy	clojurenewb: tell Raynes to release 2.0.0 - it turns those pairs into just vectors, so that you can hang onto them and combine them with just like (list pair1 pair2 pair2)
16:22	amalloy	he's apparently been on 2.0.0-SNAPSHOT for nine months
16:22	Raynes	And decreases performance by about 400%.
16:22	Raynes	Haven't had time to figure that out yet.
16:22	amalloy	feh, performance is for chumps
16:22	Raynes	Apologies.
16:23	clojurenewb	so is the plan for now this map idea ?
16:23	Raynes	Either way, selector and transformers are just functions. I'm pretty sure you can compose them in a reusable way in any version of laser.
16:23	justin_smith	based on an example, maybe something like this: (apply laser/document (laser/parse html) (apply concat {(laser/id= "hi") (laser/content "omg") (laser/class= "meow") (laser/content "omg)}))
16:23	technomancy`	clojurebot: it?
16:23	clojurebot	it is &env and &form
16:24	amalloy	a map sounds like a terrible idea, because you'd lose ordering
16:24	technomancy`	hm; I was hoping for "it is just a function"
16:24	justin_smith	though in practice the map would not be defined inline with the call of course
16:24	technomancy`	which I'm sure is buried in there somewhere
16:24	Raynes	I guess you can compose selectors and transformers individually, but not together.
16:24	Raynes	That blows.
16:24	amalloy	well yeah, Raynes, that's why you made the changes in 2.0.0 :P
16:25	Raynes	I thought the reason was "this fundamentally makes more sense"
16:25	Raynes	I never realized that it was actually adding features.
16:25	justin_smith	amalloy: fair point, so the map could be replaced by a vec of alternating selector / transformer, or a vec of two element selector / transformer vecs
16:25	clojurenewb	my only idea now is to combine then in some other element and re-write that… not a great idea
16:25	Raynes	Anyways, there are a few bugs in the 2.0.0 snapshot and the changes are woefully undocumented as such, but it works for the most part. It's slow as hell.
16:26	vendethiel	what'd be the clojure community "framework of choice" for clojure (and maybe clojurescript)?
16:26	Raynes	If all of those things are okay with you for now, then you can use that.
16:26	vendethiel	luminus?
16:26	justin_smith	another try: (apply laser/document (laser/parse html) [(laser/id= "hi") (laser/content "omg") (laser/class= "meow") (laser/content "omg)])
16:26	Bronsa	michaniskin: you can use ns-unmap though
16:26	Raynes	I think the Clojure community is too large for there to be any one canonical anything, vendethiel.
16:27	Raynes	Luminus is a great way to start.
16:27	vendethiel	Raynes: that's the idea :)
16:27	Raynes	Some folks like Pedestal.
16:27	Raynes	I'm a compojure guy.
16:27	Raynes	I support luminus, if that matters to you at all.
16:27	Raynes	yogthos gets stuff done.
16:27	Raynes	I pretend to help.
16:28	vendethiel	well, I'm certainly interested at something that shows clojure's best parts, not something that "gets stuff done" but is hacky (if that's what you meant)
16:28	clojurenewb	justin_smith: I don’t think thats what I am looking for, that is one selector and multiple transformations
16:28	mynomoto	vendethiel: I think Hoplon is a good framework.
16:29	justin_smith	clojurenewb: really? it should bbe taking them pairwise
16:29	vendethiel	mynomoto: thanks, noted
16:29	justin_smith	clojurenewb: so two selectors in the example I adapted above
16:30	clojurenewb	justin_smith: I will see if I can get it to work, thanks
16:31	justin_smith	I assume laser/document takes any number of alternating selectors and transformers, if so that would be the usage pattern for reusing some set of selectors / transformers repeatedly
16:31	justin_smith	s/the/a
16:34	clojurenewb	justin_smith: oh.. ‘Don't know how to create ISeq’ when I pulled in a function that used ‘apply’ over a few pairs of selector/transformer (pulled in to a defdocument)...
16:35	yogthos	@Raynes I just mostly glue stuff together and document it :P
16:36	Raynes	clojurenewb: I really don't think you can do this without digging into the 2.0.0 snapshots.
16:36	Raynes	That whole branch of development is adding the feature you want.
16:36	Raynes	It's very similar to compojure's middleware.
16:37	Raynes	Compiles all selectors and transformations into functions calling functions calling functions (yo dawg).
16:37	Raynes	And gives you the power to do that.
16:37	justin_smith	clojurenewb: they should be all in a flat list, not pairs
16:37	clojurenewb	Raynes: ok thanks… I probably can’t use it yet though as you mentioned the preformance difference… its to go into production :-)
16:37	justin_smith	list/vector/whatever
16:37	clojurenewb	justin_smith: I’ll try again
16:38	Raynes	clojurenewb: Well, the version you're using probably isn't bleeding fast fwiw. Enlive is inevitably much faster as Christophe put a lot of effort into making that be the case.
16:38	michaniskin	Bronsa: ns-unmap was just the thing. thanks!
16:38	Raynes	I put a lot of effort into keeping the code base as small and trivial as possible.
16:39	clojurenewb	Raynes: I think laser is awesome by the way… did not mean to sound negative, thanks for a cool library
16:40	Raynes	Of course! Feel free to yell at it or me at any time. I've dug myself this hole by letting 2.0.0 go unworked on for so long despite squeeling for two months about how laser was going to be better maintained than enlive.
16:40	Raynes	It certainly isn't abandoned though. I just need to spend a weekend or so on it.
16:41	clojurenewb	I know the feeling… so much to work on, so little time
16:45	blake__	Trying to comprehend this function definition, specifically the meaning/purpose of the "->": (defn func->func-info [func]
16:46	bbloom	blake__: it's just part of the name
16:46	bbloom	,(symbol "foo-><-bar")
16:46	clojurebot	foo-><-bar
16:46	bbloom	,'<><><><>---<><<><---,
16:46	clojurebot	<><><><>---<><<><---
16:47	blake__	oh...huh...not used to all the punctuation yet...just got accustomed to minus signs not being minus signs =P
16:47	rasmusto	,(let [map->vec (fn [m] (mapv vec m))] (map->vec {:a 1 :b 2}))
16:47	clojurebot	[[:b 2] [:a 1]]
16:47	tuft_	blake__: even the minus sign is just a symbol name in clojure =)
16:47	rasmusto	(bad example, just showing the naming) :P
16:47	justin_smith	blake__: rule of thumb, anything but ()[]{}#. will be part of a name unless separated by some space
16:48	bbloom	justin_smith: eh... or ~ or @ or , or a lot of things
16:48	blake__	Right...that's another one that gets me--significant spaces.
16:48	bbloom	blake__: the AMOUNT of space isn't significant. just the fact that it exists...
16:48	justin_smith	even in c ab isn't the same as a b
16:49	rasmusto	quantity of space shouldn't matter though :)
16:49	bbloom	blake__: while we're at it... commas are whitespace in clojure
16:49	blake__	right...significant space...well, punctuation not used a separator...not complaining, just retraining the brain...
16:49	bbloom	,(+ 5 ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, 10)
16:49	clojurebot	15
16:50	blake__	bbloom: That I knew and adapted to quickly. For whatever reason.
16:50	rasmusto	,(,,+,,5,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,10,,)
16:50	clojurebot	15
16:51	bbloom	commas as whitespace is one of those awesome ideas i could have never though of in a million years
16:51	jcromartie	trying to figure out how to render (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ as a symbol
16:51	jcromartie	I mean usable
16:51	bbloom	,(symbol "(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻")
16:51	clojurebot	(?�?�??? ???
16:51	bbloom	heh
16:51	rasmusto	AHhaha
16:51	blake__	heh
16:51	justin_smith	&(symbol "(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻")
16:51	lazybot	⇒ (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
16:51	jcromartie	well aside from that
16:51	justin_smith	(inc lazybot)
16:51	lazybot	⇒ 24
16:51	jcromartie	:P
16:51	bbloom	no, don't reward lazybot for unicode support!
16:52	bbloom	it's fucking 2014
16:52	bbloom	(dec clojurebot)
16:52	lazybot	⇒ 39
16:52	justin_smith	hah
16:53	amalloy	truly we are in the future, where computers can recognize, like any sane person, that ┻━┻ is text
16:54	rasmusto	^I disagree
16:55	technomancy	clojurebot: ┻━┻ is text.
16:55	clojurebot	c'est bon!
16:55	hiredman	ring and the servlet api defaults to iso whatever
16:57	technomancy	technically the IRC RFC states the encoding of messages is "unspecified"
16:58	technomancy	clojurebot: ┻━┻?
16:58	clojurebot	┻━┻ is text.
16:58	technomancy	the you have it
16:58	technomancy	there
16:58	AmandaC	Most of the english-speaking world has settled on UTF-8 for IRC though.
16:58	justin_smith	,(let [（╯°□°）╯︵┻━┻ (fn [WTF] (throw WTF))] (（╯°□°）╯︵┻━┻ (Exception. "TABLE"))
16:58	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
16:58	justin_smith	hmph
16:59	technomancy	AmandaC: sure; being pedantic
16:59	AmandaC	:p
16:59	technomancy	"You are technically correct." / "Which is the best kind of correct; amirite?"
16:59	justin_smith	,(let [（╯°□°）╯︵┻━┻ (fn [WTF] (throw WTF))] (（╯°□°）╯︵┻━┻ (Exception. "TABLE")))
16:59	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: TABLE>
17:01	modulus	Hi, I'm having an odd issue with korma, I think related to macros. Say I have a db table called widgets. I can't do this:
17:01	modulus	(select wiedgets (if true (where {:id 1})))
17:01	modulus	I get a wrong number of args for where
17:02	modulus	though (select widgets (where {:id 1})) works fine
17:02	justin_smith	modulus: macros are weird
17:02	modulus	i need to be able to build conditional where clauses, so any clues how to go about it instead?
17:03	justin_smith	modulus: to programmatically interface with code that is a macro, you should make another macro
17:03	justin_smith	(or find a non-macro-using way to do it, of course)
17:03	modulus	that sounds like an awful idea....
17:03	justin_smith	remember that if is a macro
17:03	scape_	I'm having trouble with gen-class and creating my own class, I mocked up an example to show what I mean. #<CompilerException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: cljtest.core.Test, compiling:(cljtest/main.clj:4:1)>
17:03	justin_smith	(if true (select widgets (where {:id 1})))
17:03	scape_	https://www.refheap.com/73085
17:05	justin_smith	modulus: since a macro represents a changed syntax, it often won't do what you want with arbitrary inline values, which is why the solution is usually use yet another macro, or don't use macros in the first place
17:06	modulus	nwjsmith___: yeah but the problem is i need to build quite a few different where conditions, depending on several things, so if i have to put the select in the if i'm pretty screwed.
17:06	modulus	er wrong completion, apologies.
17:07	justin_smith	np. Yeah, I would check if korma has a layer that just uses vanilla data as input. If not, construct the call in your own macro or don't use korma?
17:08	modulus	hmm maybe the starred forms will work, I'm going to try that
17:08	hiredman	,(symbol "(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻")
17:08	clojurebot	(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
17:09	justin_smith	,'（╯°□°）╯︵┻━┻
17:09	clojurebot	（╯°□°）╯︵┻━┻
17:09	justin_smith	sweet
17:09	scape_	Why do I receive a classnotfound when compiling my code? am I using gen-class wrong? what am I missing?
17:10	justin_smith	scape_: maybe try putting the constructor in a function so it is not called at load time, but can be delayed until after everything else is loaded and compiled?
17:11	justin_smith	scape_: since classes can have side effects at creation time, putting a constructor at the top level is probably a bad idea anyway
17:11	justin_smith	(otherwise loading the namespace has sideeffects, which is bad)
17:12	scape_	i'll try that
17:12	justin_smith	also, I am not totally sure what that ^:skip-aot does, but it is suspicious
17:13	scape_	it shipped with my lein new app, I removed it and tried aot it also received same error
17:15	modulus	heh starred forms don't ... quite ... do it
17:15	scape_	justin_smith: I got the idea from here https://github.com/libgdx/libgdx/wiki/Using-libgdx-with-Clojure
17:15	scape_	where they use a class to initiate the game
17:15	scape_	i'll try another way, thanks :)
17:16	justin_smith	scape_: yeah, but they do the right thing and make the instance inside -main
17:16	justin_smith	that is different from the top level, -main should actually have side effects
17:17	justin_smith	and you should probably similarly create the class inside -main - or restructure things and not use classes, since usually that pattern of usage is for when you are using some lib that is from java, and there is no need if the defining code is clojure
17:19	scape_	this is true, i also couldn't get their code to compile :-\ but the lib is from java hence the class thing. I probably have an alternative i'll check out
17:20	modulus	hmm so
17:20	modulus	(-> (select* widgets) (where {:id 1}) (select)) works
17:20	modulus	but again, using if breaks it
17:20	modulus	i don't understand what's going on with the macros here which is confusing me
17:21	justin_smith	scape_: if you have something that should always be a singleton, you can just have a namespace with an init function and some vars for "fields" and defns for "methods" (if the fields are not immutible the var should hold a ref or atom). Otherwise there are things like a defn that returns a map plus some functions that expect that map as an arg.
17:21	rasmusto	,(macroexpand (-> (select* widgets) (where {:id 1}) (select)))
17:21	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: select in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
17:21	rasmusto	,(macroexpand '(-> (select* widgets) (where {:id 1}) (select)))
17:21	clojurebot	(select (where (select* widgets) {:id 1}))
17:24	modulus	how do i see the expansion of a macro?
17:24	justin_smith	modulus: same way rasmusto did
17:24	justin_smith	modulus: quote the form, and call macroexpand on it
17:25	modulus	hmm
17:25	modulus	i forgot to quote
17:29	tuft	was using this handy datomic-schema lib, but the side-effecting defs bit me https://github.com/Yuppiechef/datomic-schema/blob/master/src/datomic_schema/schema.clj
17:29	modulus	heh, some weird transform
17:29	modulus	(macroexpand '(-> (select* widgets) (if true (where {:id 1}))))
17:29	modulus	(if (select* widgets) true (where {:id 1}))
17:29	modulus	I've no idea how the first becomes the second
17:29	tuft	were i to refactor, is the clojure test approach the way to go? i.e. use (ns-interns) instead of what this is doing with atoms?
17:29	justin_smith	modulus: -> is a macro, it just inserts each form into the next
17:31	justin_smith	,(macroexpand '(-> long (very and boring) (a story)))
17:31	clojurebot	(a (very long and boring) story)
17:31	modulus	ahh, i see now, so the problem is the if is being threaded
17:31	justin_smith	well, a form is being threaded into if, but yeah
17:32	modulus	i thought if would execute first for some reason
17:32	rasmusto	modulus: yeah, stuff like that gets messy, and can be worked around (messily) with #(if blah % somethingelse)
17:32	justin_smith	~macros
17:32	clojurebot	Barking spiders!
17:32	rasmusto	~macro
17:32	amalloy	not sure whether to inc or dec clojurebot for that...
17:32	clojurebot	Holy Crap.
17:38	modulus	Well, thanks; I still don't know how to do conditional wheres but I'll think about it.
17:39	justin_smith	You could make a function that constructs the form to be called at compile time. What could go wrong with that?
17:44	tuft	need to stop programming clojure. python code getting hard to look at. =)
17:44	bohford	hard to go back isnt it
17:44	tuft	i keep trying to do structural editing, too
17:45	rasmusto	map(lambda x: x + 1, [1, 2, 3])
17:46	justin_smith	there are also things like the runtime that will gladly let libraries write outside array bounds
17:46	justin_smith	(that whole "reading a utf7 web page corrupts your couchdb instance" bug for example)
17:47	rasmusto	map(lambda x: x.append("foo"), [[1, 2] ["a", "b"]])
17:47	rasmusto	whoops, missed a comma
17:49	amalloy	i just looked up utf-7. who would ever use that?
17:49	justin_smith	amalloy: no idea? but if a webpage says it is utf7, one should parse as utf7 or fail I guess
17:50	bbloom	isn't that for like MIME headers or something?
17:50	bbloom	yeah, imap uses it b/c email headers have to be in ascii
17:51	bbloom	so basically no one would ever use it... if they could help it
17:51	justin_smith	http://rspeer.github.io/blog/2014/03/30/unicode-deadbeef/ title is funny (they blame text encodings rather than the insecure architecture of their runtime)
17:59	tbaldridge	unicode in Python is a mess anyways
18:00	justin_smith	I am tempted to generalize that statement
18:00	tbaldridge	true
18:00	tbaldridge	but there are times where python obeys the encoding of the terminal the interpreter is started in
18:02	justin_smith	you could generalize over "unicode" or "Python" actually
18:02	justin_smith	the intersection is of course a little quagmire
18:33	scape_	justin_smith: got my test class to compile, I threw it in a main and then put :aot :all in project file. now i'll try fixing my actual issue with the java lib i'm using. thanks for the ideas
18:34	justin_smith	scape_: glad you worked it out
18:34	justin_smith	it should suffice to only aot the :genclass ns
18:35	scape_	yea, i figured but wanted to make sure :)
18:35	justin_smith	yeah, easier to have something that works and refine from there, to be sure
18:38	NicoArg	hello :) im from argentina
18:38	justin_smith	hello
18:39	NicoArg	chat me.. i dont kwnow write in english so much haha
18:39	NicoArg	i want learn more
18:40	rasmusto	NicoArg: http://www.clojurebook.com/ http://joyofclojure.com/
19:04	amalloy	huh, another function i didn't know was in clojure.core: find-var
19:04	amalloy	i've always seen resolve used instead
19:05	`szx	amalloy: just saw your response re: the missing reducers - so you're saying in principle you don't see any reason why one shouldn't use r/drop-while, r/map-indexed, etc.?
19:05	tuft	,(find-var `str)
19:05	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/str
19:05	tuft	cool
19:05	bbloom	huh, how does it differ from ns-resolve? it only does namespace qualified vars?
19:06	`szx	s/use/implement i guess
19:06	amalloy	`szx: implementing transformers like that isn't too bad - it's implementing new sources entirely, like range or repeat, that's fraught with problems
19:08	amalloy	bbloom: well, ns-resolve uses the current namespace (including ns aliases), and also lets you resolve in a different namespace
19:08	amalloy	it looks like find-var only accepts canonical names
19:08	bbloom	amalloy: makes sense
19:11	justin_smith	yeah, seems like find-var reduces the complexity and removes a potential failure point if you know the full ns and don't care about aliases
19:15	gtrak	if you tap into a mult, and that target channel is closed, seems like we need to untap it from the mult, too? What's the expected effect if you don't? also, if one of the taps of the mult has a full queue, does that also block the mult, and consequently all other taps?
19:19	justin_smith	I am trying to figure out how to use cemerick/friend - is there some simple example of using a :credential-fn (or replacement for one?) that does not require a map with an entry for every user?
19:19	justin_smith	I already have users in a db, and having to update some map every time I update the db seems like the wrong thing
19:21	hiredman	justin_smith: https://github.com/hiredman/ideapad/blob/master/src/com/thelastcitadel/ideapad.clj has a lot of moving parts, but it uses friend to do basic auth, authenticating a user against another service with a rest api
19:21	justin_smith	hiredman: awesome, thanks
19:22	hiredman	justin_smith: I think the thing you are missing is it doesn't have to be a map, it can be any function that takes a username and returns whatever friend wants
19:22	hiredman	for :credential-fn
19:22	justin_smith	ah, that is much better, and totally compatible with my setup
19:24	justin_smith	(inc hiredman)
19:24	lazybot	⇒ 39
19:27	bbloom	amalloy: what i really need is ns-resolve that doesn't find java classes...
19:28	oinksoft	bbloom, why?
19:29	bbloom	oinksoft: crazy esoteric experiment bootstrapping reasons
19:32	oinksoft	bbloom, i see, just curious :)
19:38	kenrestivo	X-In-Like-Flynn? o_0
19:39	hiredman	I needed to add an extra header for some reason which I no longer recall
19:39	technomancy	flynn from tron?
19:40	justin_smith	errol flynn's autobio is a rollicking tale, btw
19:41	hiredman	it rhymed shrug
19:46	bbloom	how do people feel about the distinctions between clojure.core and cljs.core ?
19:46	bbloom	iirc, one gets re-routed to the other, right?
19:48	oinksoft	is it normal to design a clojure program around records/protocols?
19:48	justin_smith	oinksoft: in my experience program no, but library yes
19:49	oinksoft	justin_smith, this is a logging library
19:49	justin_smith	then yes, please do it that way
19:49	bbloom	i just replaced about 15 record types with two record types. my program got simpler AND faster
19:49	justin_smith	awesome
19:50	oinksoft	bbloom, i didn't bring it up yet, but performance was once concern i had about using a bunch of protocols. do i pay for that at compile time or runtime?
19:50	bbloom	yes
19:50	oinksoft	haha
19:50	oinksoft	ok
19:50	hiredman	megamorphic calls not fast, news at 11
19:51	bbloom	oinksoft: seriously though, start with a multimethod if you only have one generic function.
19:51	bbloom	only define a protocol if you need it
19:51	bbloom	only define a record or deftype if you need it
19:51	bbloom	basically, use plain old data unless you need to dispatch on type a lot
19:52	oinksoft	bbloom, OK that was what i was wondering about. as i was designing i could see how most parts of it could be described through protocols
19:52	bbloom	oinksoft: that might be true for your problem or it could be brain damage from past languages
19:52	oinksoft	bbloom, in erlang it's normal to use a record /-type for anything because you only pay for that at compile time
19:52	sdegutis	How do you usually distribute a .jar file created with `lein uberjar` but from another project than your own? I'm trying to distribute REPLy to my remote server.
19:52	bbloom	oinksoft: i couldn't tell you unless i tried to implement whatever you're implementing ;-)
19:52	oinksoft	bbloom, so i didn't just want to go headlong into doing it in the erlang way :P
19:53	oinksoft	bbloom, sure, let me provide a concrete example
19:53	bbloom	oinksoft: i dunno much erlang, but it's probably better to go erlang -> clojure style than to go java -> clojure style :-P
19:53	technomancy	erlang uses records in a lot of places simply because proplists are ugly and maps are too new
19:53	technomancy	clojure luckily has had maps since the start =)
19:54	gtrak	maps, fancy
19:54	oinksoft	bbloom, as i typed out the concrete example i got my answer, this was not a place for a record/protocol
19:54	technomancy	gtrak: http://thisotplife.tumblr.com/post/81168432835/when-i-heard-erlang-now-has-maps
19:54	bbloom	ha
19:54	sdegutis	It seems wrong to just compile the jar and stick it into my git repo..
19:55	bbloom	sdegutis: it is
19:55	oinksoft	technomancy, heh i have no problem w/ records, keep programs simple
19:55	gtrak	hah
19:55	sdegutis	I could clone REPLy and create an uberjar on-demand, and use that..
19:55	oinksoft	technomancy, proplists are mostly slow
19:55	sdegutis	It seems equally wrong to make REPLy a submodule of my repo.
19:55	gtrak	sdegutis: that IS wrong
19:55	sdegutis	gtrak: which one
19:55	gtrak	the first
19:55	sdegutis	Okay yea.
19:55	technomancy	oinksoft: maybe they don't seem as ugly if you aren't accustomed to maps =)
19:56	oinksoft	technomancy, probably more like stockholm syndrome
19:56	gtrak	sdegutis: is reply pure clojure? just eval it :-)
19:56	bbloom	oinksoft: fast immutable maps are LIFE CHANGING
19:56	oinksoft	bbloom, ah well those i havent used yet, except now in clojure
19:57	sdegutis	gtrak: I don't want Leiningen on the remote server, just Java.
19:57	technomancy	gtrak: also http://thisotplife.tumblr.com/post/76346999236/other-peoples-reaction-when-i-say-erlang-is-about-to
19:57	sdegutis	gtrak: REPLy is only gonna be there for debugging etc.
19:57	gtrak	well, the normal clojure repl is always there, if it's a clojure app.
19:57	gtrak	you can eval arbitrary strings in there, which can include full libraries if you're trying hard enough :-)
19:58	gtrak	gotta run though, later
19:58	sdegutis	Alternatively maybe I can compile REPLy into my app, and just run it through my app...
19:59	sdegutis	That seems the easiest but maybe not the cleanest route.
20:03	oinksoft	what does it mean if i see (def fn (partial fn* unbound-thing)) ? where does unbound-thing come from?
20:04	oinksoft	if it matters, unbound-thing is also the name of a protocol method
20:05	hiredman	protocols don't have methods
20:05	hiredman	they are collections of functions
20:05	oinksoft	wasn't sure of the terminology
20:05	oinksoft	*function
20:06	hiredman	that name is the name of a function, just like (defn foo ...) and foo names a function (it actually names a var which holds a function but whatever)
20:08	oinksoft	but there is no (defn unbound-thing) in this source file or imported
20:08	hiredman	oinksoft: you said it is part of a protocol
20:09	oinksoft	hiredman, it is, (defprotocol Proto (unbound-thing [arg] ....))
20:09	oinksoft	hiredman, this defines unbound-thing, unqualified, globally to my source file?
20:10	oinksoft	hiredman, that seems weird, what if i define two protocols that happen to share a function name
20:10	hiredman	oinksoft: they have to go in different namespaces
20:11	bbloom	oinksoft: what happens if you name two functions the same thing?
20:11	hiredman	^-
20:12	bbloom	oinksoft: by "unbound" do you mean "unqualified"
20:12	oinksoft	oh!
20:12	oinksoft	Warning: protocol #'user/P is overwriting function f
20:12	oinksoft	this is surprising but now i know what is happening
20:12	bbloom	why is this surprising?
20:12	oinksoft	bbloom, well typically if i don't spend jack shit to study something i just understand it, you know? ;)
20:13	bbloom	shrug
20:13	oinksoft	bbloom, if a protocol is just a collection of functions that can operate on a record type, it makes a lot more sense
20:13	oinksoft	bbloom, i was thinking about this inside-out
20:13	bbloom	they can operate on any JVM type
20:13	bbloom	plus nil, which isn't really a type :-P
20:13	oinksoft	yea, this is very nice
20:15	oinksoft	bbloom, hiredman, thanks for the help
20:20	tadni-	Are there any introductory (as in near to complete beginner) to programming text, in Clojure? All I can find assumes prior knowledge.
20:20	technomancy	tadni-: I don't think anything like that exists. clojure is not a great language to learn programming in.
20:21	bob2	suspect you'd be better off starting with python or ruby
20:21	technomancy	heavens no
20:21	technomancy	start with racket
20:21	technomancy	I mean, unless you are looking to use it professionally with little delay
20:22	amalloy	guys i found an amazing feature slime/swank has that's not present in cider: swank.core/read-from-emacs-minibuffer
20:22	technomancy	amalloy: I implemented that in nrepl-discover =P
20:22	amalloy	there's y-or-n-p support in there as well, although it's hidden
20:24	tadni-	I've been looking into elisp, for a practical skillset I could learn. Pretty sure they have an introductory text.
20:24	Bronsa	amalloy: woah
20:25	technomancy	tadni-: elisp is certainly more practical than racket. unfortunately it is very imperative. but the built-in intro is good, and the first half of Practical Common Lisp is very relevant too.
20:25	amalloy	i don't know how i would use that, technomancy. even reading through the docs and the source for nrepl-discover
20:25	technomancy	nrepl-discover has docs??
20:25	lazybot	technomancy: Uh, no. Why would you even ask?
20:25	Bronsa	now I need to find a way to use that
20:25	amalloy	well it has a readme
20:25	technomancy	yeah
20:25	technomancy	it's pretty half-baked ATM
20:25	amalloy	Bronsa: i actually discovered it because i had a way to use it!
20:25	technomancy	but it's a lot nicer to extend than swank
20:26	scape_	is it possible with leiningen to have it include certain dependencies based on something specific when running lein?
20:26	amalloy	writing a program for work that prompts the user to fill in the blanks in some auto-generated data; i was giving it swappable ui bits, for gui/cli, and discovered i could add a slime/swank backend for myself as well
20:26	Bronsa	I feel a bit bad not using nrepl/cider but everytime I tried moving from slime/swank I ended up switching back after less than a day :(
20:27	technomancy	scape_: sure, as long as "something specific" is "which profiles are active"
20:27	scape_	okay, so it's profiles I should look into? thanks technomancy
20:29	amalloy	Bronsa: see also (#'swank/send-slime-command-to-emacs-and-wait :y-or-n-p prompt)
20:29	amalloy	sadly that's a bit fragile - if you C-g out of it, clojure gets really sad
20:30	technomancy	amalloy: in nrepl-discover you just attach metadata to a function that says it's a command that should be invokeable from the editor
20:30	technomancy	you can even provide various completion options
20:30	amalloy	technomancy: how does that help?
20:30	amalloy	the goal is to go the other direction: let clojure call y-or-n-p
20:30	amalloy	or, anyway, the goal of this feature in swank
20:30	technomancy	oh, but you can't prompt in the middle of an existing function call; never mind
20:31	amalloy	i have like (when (y-or-n-p "dude this looks bad, are you sure?") (jdbc/delete-everything-forever))
20:32	technomancy	yeah, nrepl is request/response
20:32	technomancy	no SSE
20:38	tadni-	Ok
20:38	tadni-	Well, thanks for the advice tech.
20:38	tadni-	I'll look into racket more in-depth.
20:38	tadni-	Peace people.
20:40	technomancy	oh he left before I could recommend HDTP =(
20:40	technomancy	HTDP rather
20:41	cespare	What's the general convention for naming your deftest? I've been browsing some popular projects and it seems like a common choice is either just the name of the general thing/concept (e.g. 'deftest serialization') or to suffix with -test if it's a unit test for a function ('deftest conj-service-test')
20:41	amalloy	i was in the middle of telling him he could use tab-completion instead of calling you tech
20:41	cespare	some folks use test- as a prefix instead
20:42	amalloy	naming of tests is the wild west. stake your claim
20:42	cespare	amalloy: I'm coming up with a recommendation to replace the insano practice we seem to have here of calling it foo-bar-works-as-expected
20:42	cespare	:)
20:44	kras	can I control the number of threads spawned by pmap/pcall?
20:44	kras	Emulating a thread pool
20:45	hiredman	you don't, so use a thread pool
20:45	hiredman	~pmap
20:45	clojurebot	pmap is not what you want
20:45	`szx	kras: again, https://github.com/TheClimateCorporation/claypoole
20:49	kras	`szx: this seemed like a basic usage and I thought the language ought to have some built-in
20:49	kras	sorry for the repetition
20:50	`szx	kras: no worries. nothing built-in afaik
20:51	kras	so when I say (pmap inc [1 2 3 4 5]) it spawns 5 threads?
20:51	hiredman	no
20:51	hiredman	it is much more annoyingly complicated
20:52	kras	:-(
20:52	hiredman	right, it is a gimmick, looks good in demos, is bad
20:56	hiredman	,(doc pmap)
20:56	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f coll & colls]); Like map, except f is applied in parallel. Semi-lazy in that the parallel computation stays ahead of the consumption, but doesn't realize the entire result unless required. Only useful for computationally intensive functions where the time of f dominates the coordination overhead."
20:57	gfredericks	"... and where function execution times have a low variance."
21:01	hiredman	"... and watch out for chunked seqs"
21:02	gfredericks	really?
21:02	gfredericks	is pmap implemented in ignorance of chunking?
21:04	amalloy	yes
21:04	amalloy	pmap is implemented in ignorance of everything
21:04	gfredericks	,(->> (range 10) (pmap print) (first))
21:04	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: no threads please>
21:05	gfredericks	that's exciting
21:06	amalloy	i wrote like a mediocre pdorun earlier: https://www.refheap.com/feee08c4a29bbd104005e5240
21:08	hiredman	we have a pdoseq at work, which I like, because I wrote it, but no one else has ever used it
21:08	gfredericks	there's a library that wraps all the executor stuff
21:08	gfredericks	has its own pmap & such
21:08	amalloy	executors are fine though
21:09	gfredericks	a little bit noisy if you use them a lot
21:09	amalloy	and pmap using wrapped executors doesn't sound likely to be much better than clojure.core/pmap anyway?
21:09	gfredericks	I haven't jumped to using said library though so apparently I'm on your side of it
21:10	gfredericks	well if you do it eagerly you're at least not subject to variance issues
21:10	amalloy	like, for my do-jobs, i was able to run job n+100, even if job n takes a really long time
21:10	amalloy	(because i don't care about order)
21:10	gfredericks	sure; but executors can do that
21:11	amalloy	pmap needs to be eager to make that possible
21:11	gfredericks	sure
21:11	gfredericks	(like I said)
21:11	amalloy	right. it's just, you were saying it offhand, like "and pmap has to be eager". but that's a big deal
21:11	gfredericks	I say all my big deals offhand
21:12	hiredman	I really want some like (pipeline [queue-size threadpool-size some-function] [queue-size threadpool-size next-function] [" " "] ...)
21:12	gfredericks	I guess my hunch is that most people who jump to pmap care a lot more about parallelizing than they do about laziness
21:20	hiredman	clojure.core really doesn't have anything good for organizing multithreaded io stuff
21:22	bob2	may want claypoole
21:22	gfredericks	I think that's the library I was mentioning
21:32	noprompt	dnolen_: yeah, we have no idea what's causing the random errors. they're generally weird occasionally related to a ^@ character which we have idea what it's about.
21:32	noprompt	java.lang.Error: Not a valid base 64 digit:
21:32	noprompt	it could be a library but it's hard to say.
21:34	noprompt	it still seems to be source-map related though. that last error comes from cljs.source-map.base64/decode.
21:57	kenrestivo	i feel bad for the guy who made gorilla. great idea, but now he's likely to get mired in browser incompatibility hell.
21:57	kenrestivo	s/gorilla/any web app/g
22:23	scottj	kenrestivo: I felt bad for him because right after gorilla was released session was released and had a clojure/west talk and since they looked similar to me on first glance I thought gorilla would get overshadowed, but it appears that they have roughly the same number of github stars so I guess they're both doing fine.
22:34	zanes	Has anyone had issues AOT-compiling core.match :or expressions?
22:34	zanes	I think I may have found a regression.
23:16	Jaood	is there a function to get only the values that have been realized in a lazy-seq?
23:18	amalloy	Jaood: see: (doc take-while), (doc realized?)
23:18	mercwithamouth	o_O i'm looking at zippers and wow am i 'comfused'
23:25	amalloy	mercwithamouth: i suggest you don't worry about it - you don't need zippers, whatever your problem is
23:26	Jaood	amalloy: thanks
23:26	mercwithamouth	amalloy: good to know. i'll add them to my todo list and come back
23:27	amalloy	i guess the exception is "help someone gave me a zipper how do i use it"
23:27	mercwithamouth	definitely something i'd like to have a strong hold on but right now they're making my head hurt
23:27	mercwithamouth	i'm just going through 'clojure programming'
23:28	Jaood	mercwithamouth: what page?
23:28	mercwithamouth	Jaood: 152
23:29	mercwithamouth	skipping to concurrency and parallism...
23:29	Jaood	hah
23:29	Jaood	you are ahead of me, page 95 still
23:31	Jaood	amalloy now me wonder if I should skip that part too
23:33	Jaood	+made
23:33	mercwithamouth	=P i have a few days off from work. I spent around 7 hours the other night going through it
23:33	mercwithamouth	after Part II i'll jump to the web programming in clojure book
23:35	Jaood	same, although some parts of chapter 8 are really useful to know
23:36	Jaood	for daily clojure
23:36	mercwithamouth	true...i've done a bit of tinkering on the side so i'm getting pretty comfortable with namespaces and organization in general. i'll take a look over it though
23:45	Jaood	amalloy: so is there are pattern to replace zippers? or is a just don't do it that way?
23:46	amalloy	Jaood: you just don't need them. like, in certain esoteric scenarios, they are handy to have for sure. but if you are learning clojure, and think "i need zippers for this", you are wrong
23:46	amalloy	and all you need is a recursive function, usually
23:47	amalloy	they're pretty good for working with xml, i guess, if you have a reason to do that
23:51	Jaood	amalloy: got it
23:53	oinksoft	i'm having a hard time writing recursive functions in clojure, i am used to processing off the head of a list in erlang ... how do i recursively process a list in clojure?
23:53	oinksoft	i couldn't even find a function to take all but the head
23:55	sjy	oinksoft: use 'rest'
23:57	bob2	you may want map or filter or reduce instead though
23:58	mercwithamouth	any tutorials out there that go over building a compojure webapp 100% without hiccup?
23:58	bob2	what do you want to use instead?
23:59	Jaood	mercwithamouth: do you already know ring well?
23:59	oinksoft	bob2, i just want the first non-nil value of a list of functions when applied
23:59	oinksoft	bob2, if-let looks promising if i knew what it did, the examples are not very clear to me
23:59	Jaood	mercwithamouth: the book you mentioned covers that I think, the show how to use selmer too
23:59	mercwithamouth	Jaood: well..no but i've toyed a little with it along with both enfocus and om
23:59	beamso	mercwithamouth: http://www.luminusweb.net/