#clojure – 2014-03-20

2014-03-20

00:08	SegFaultAX	Has anyone here ever tried to embed elasticsearch in their application?
00:11	technomancy	SegFaultAX: as I understand it, elasticsearch is a distributed dynamo-style cluster; not sure how that would work.
00:12	SegFaultAX	technomancy: Just like running it stand alone, but embedded in your application (eg the nodes life cycle is tied to your application's)
00:12	SegFaultAX	http://www.elasticsearch.org/guide/en/elasticsearch/client/java-api/current/client.html
00:13	technomancy	not sure what the point of ES is if you don't have clustering though?
00:14	technomancy	just use lucene
00:14	SegFaultAX	It still connects to the cluster.
00:14	SegFaultAX	It works exactly the same way, just embedded.
00:14	SegFaultAX	"When you start a Node, it joins an elasticsearch cluster." - that page I linked
00:14	technomancy	I guess you would gain faster access for whatever data happens to be on the local node?
00:15	technomancy	might make sense for smaller corpuses
00:15	hiredman	technomancy: it isn't a data node
00:15	SegFaultAX	technomancy: Actually in this case I'm wondering if it would ease deployment if I want to use elastic beanstalk or something.
00:15	hiredman	technomancy: what we did before we switched to the rest api
00:16	SegFaultAX	I guess I could deploy ES directly to EB.
00:16	technomancy	hiredman: oh, you mean like so it has access to all the ring data so it can go directly to the node that contains a given shard?
00:16	technomancy	skip a hop or whatever
00:17	hiredman	technomancy: if I recall, yeah
00:18	SegFaultAX	Anyway, it doesn't seem like it'd be that hard to do. Maybe not worth it though.
00:19	SegFaultAX	I was thinking it might be neat to have a local read-only index. Writes will fan out from the master to the local instance on each app server.
00:20	hiredman	SegFaultAX: that is not really how es works
00:20	SegFaultAX	hiredman: In what way do you mean?
00:21	SegFaultAX	I had a ~5 node cluster at my last company so I'm familiar running it as a silo'd service.
00:21	hiredman	SegFaultAX: es nodes don't have a copy of all the data, and I would definitely not recommend making your app a data node on elasticbeanstalk, you will have a bad time as the cluster rebalances when you scale up or down
00:23	SegFaultAX	Yea that was my main concern, too.
00:23	SegFaultAX	hiredman: But I got the idea from reading this: http://www.colinsteele.org/post/27929539434/60-000-growth-in-7-months-using-clojure-and-aws
00:23	SegFaultAX	Basically they had an embedded solr instance in each app node (also Clojure)
00:24	SegFaultAX	And I've heard of a similar architecture at Guardian (one of the tech leads gave a talk about it)
00:25	hiredman	SegFaultAX: sure, that is a common thing to do with lucene based things that are not elasticsearch, you have some offline process that generates indices, and each process gets a copy
00:26	SegFaultAX	(Relevant guardian talk: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/guardian-content-api)
00:26	SegFaultAX	hiredman: Why do you think that won't work for ES?
00:26	hiredman	SegFaultAX: es is clustered
00:27	hiredman	SegFaultAX: they are talking about non-clustered completely indepedent solr instances
00:27	hiredman	the clustering will not respond well to many and rapid changes in cluster membership
00:27	SegFaultAX	Well it's not like instances come up and down every couple minutes.
00:28	SegFaultAX	But I see your point anyway.
00:28	hiredman	if your data set is small enough for one machine, just build and ship lucene indices, no need for solr or es
00:30	SegFaultAX	hiredman: Yea, totally. I might still play around with it anyway just to see how bad it is. Just thought it was an interesting architectural choice.
00:37	dakrone	hiredman: it's still nice to have solr or ES instead of plain Lucene though, Lucene by itself is a much more complex API to deal with
00:37	dakrone	(sometimes)
00:58	jph-	dakrone, btw, thanks for cheshire
00:59	dakrone	jph-: you're welcome!
01:12	jph-	is it ok to put bigger functions in your (extend-type or should call functions defined elsewhere?
01:12	jph-	i kinda feel like the latter is the better approach
01:12	jph-	they otherwise feel hidden away in (extend-type
01:22	vertup	f/clear
01:23	jph-	accidentally left a () in my code, the stack trace was less than helpful
01:32	turbofail	it always is
01:56	mr-foobar	lein cljsbuild auto is compiling my changes, but python -m SimpleHTTPServer in resources/public is not picking up the changes. Not sure why :/
02:11	michel_slm	hi everyone
02:11	michel_slm	what's the best practice for dealing with dependencies pulling multiple versions of some components like clojure?
02:27	storme	echo ,(println "&(+ 1 2)")
02:27	lazybot	,(println "&(+ 1 2)")
02:27	clojurebot	&(+ 1 2)\n
02:27	storme	echo ,(println "(+ 1 2)")
02:27	lazybot	,(println "(+ 1 2)")
02:27	clojurebot	(+ 1 2)\n
02:27	katratxo	michel_slm: perhaps using `:exclusions` ? https://github.com/search?l=Clojure&q=%3Aexclusions&ref=advsearch&type=Code
02:28	katratxo	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj#L48
02:31	michel_slm	katratxo: aha, thanks.
02:31	michel_slm	am trying out hoplon, and when I tried one of its dependencies using lein try, it pulls in clojure 1.3.0 -- will try and make sure that doesn't make its way into production code
03:05	akhudek	does anyone have any idea how I can access these weird static final classes? https://github.com/knowitall/openregex/blob/master/src/main/java/edu/washington/cs/knowitall/regex/RegularExpressionParsers.java
03:13	opqdonut	akhudek: you import edu.washington.cs.knowitall.regex.RegularExpressionParser, you refer to them with RegularExpressionParser/character and RegularExpressionParser/word
03:13	opqdonut	akhudek: as you can see they're not really classes, but fields
03:14	akhudek	opqdonut: that's what I thought too, but it's giving me illegal access errors
03:14	opqdonut	mm, sorry, I typoed
03:14	opqdonut	should be RegularExpressionParser_s_ and RegularExpressionParser_s_/character
03:14	opqdonut	akhudek: weird, could you paste the error somewhere?=
03:15	dbasch	is there a way to know if a compojure route would match a path without calling it?
03:15	akhudek	https://www.refheap.com/3b078fda1a1cb483a50207b32
03:19	akhudek	there is serious magic going on in this library
03:19	akhudek	https://github.com/knowitall/openregex/blob/master/src/main/java/edu/washington/cs/knowitall/regex/RegularExpression.java
03:19	akhudek	at the bottom you can see it use RegularExpressionParsers
03:19	akhudek	but it never imports it
03:19	akhudek	O.o
03:20	opqdonut	akhudek: it's in the same package, no need to import
03:21	opqdonut	akhudek: I just checked and I can access "public static final" fields ok
03:22	akhudek	opqdonut: yeah, I've done it before too. Not sure why this one isn't working.
03:27	ArchPy	I was told to come here to learn more.
03:27	SegFaultAX	What do you want to know?
03:28	ArchPy	Why is clojure worth paying attention to?
03:29	SegFaultAX	Are you primarily a Python hacker?
03:31	jack_rabbit	Clojure is probably one of the easier functional languages to write significant applications in. And lisp is great.
03:34	tsdh	Aren't there functions like head-set/tail-set for sorted sets that return the set of elements smaller/larger than a given element?
03:35	tsdh	I know I can use take-while/drop-while, but those are linear whereas special sorted-set aware functions could be logarithmic.
03:37	ArchPy	SegFaultAX I work primarily with python and powershell
03:37	ArchPy	My day-to-day is powershell because I am a Windows Server Administrator and my personal projects have always been python. I've dabbled in other languages but nothing significant.
03:38	akhudek	opqdonut: I think the reason is that RegularExpressionParsers itself is not marked public
03:40	SegFaultAX	ArchPy: Well other people have spent a lot of time and effort describing the wonderful and attractive aspects of clojure.
03:41	SegFaultAX	They do it more justice than I can off the cuff here. Try googling "why clojure" or something.
03:42	scottj	here's one http://clojure.org/rationale
03:42	opqdonut	akhudek: riiiight, yeah
03:42	opqdonut	akhudek: so it has only package visibility
03:43	SegFaultAX	Or here: http://www.quora.com/Clojure/Why-would-someone-learn-Clojure
03:44	SegFaultAX	Or here: http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/08/07/why-clojure-will-win/
03:52	jph-	how might i thread-first this... (merge (get {:a 1} :b) (get {:a 1 :b 2} :b)) ?
03:53	jph-	i know how to thread-first (-> {:a 1} (get :b) (merge))
03:53	jph-	woops, its the second get im not sure how to represent
03:58	scottj	jph-: I don't think there's a reason to thread that. (merge (map :b [{:a 1} {:a 1 :b 2}]
03:59	tsdh	How can I get the namespace prefix of a symbol? E.g., (gimme-ns `foo) would return user if I'm in the user namespace.
03:59	jph-	scottj, i havent seen it written that way, cheers
03:59	beamso	isn't a :: symbol the symbol for the current namespace
04:00	jph-	ns
04:00	jph-	,ns
04:00	clojurebot	#<Namespace sandbox>
04:00	scottj	beamso: that's for keywords, which I think are called symbols in other languages
04:00	beamso	,(symbol "foo")
04:00	jph-	learnt that when playing with macros
04:00	clojurebot	foo
04:03	tsdh	Just to make my point clear: how can I distinguish `foo and 'foo?
04:03	tsdh	,[(name 'foo) (name `foo) (= 'foo `foo)]
04:03	clojurebot	["foo" "foo" false]
04:03	jph-	user=> (symbol (str ns) "help")
04:03	jph-	user/help
04:03	jph-	then you can (resolve ..)
04:03	jph-	and (deref (resolve ..))
04:04	tsdh	jph-: That requires that foo is an existing var which it is not in my case.
04:06	tsdh	Basically, I'm trying to write a function that given a form picks out all local variables it uses. Those are the symbols that are not in funcall position and are not namespace qualified.
04:07	tsdh	(Plus some extra logic for let, loop, and fn, etc.)
04:10	tsdh	Argh, that was way too obvious: ,(namespace `foo)
04:10	tsdh	,(namespace `foo)
04:10	clojurebot	"sandbox"
04:10	tsdh	:-)
04:10	jph-	hah
04:10	jph-	nice
04:34	jph-	silly question, whats the purpose of including type in a functions parameter list
04:34	jph-	it's not casting is it?
04:35	jph-	(def x [^java.math.BigDecimal y] y)
04:35	TEttinger	that's a type hint
04:35	jph-	for when you are (doc x) ?
04:35	jph-	ie, is it more for self-documenting code
04:35	beamso	the type hint is to prevent using reflection when executing methods/functions
04:36	scottj	jph-: clojurebook.com or read all the docs on clojure.org
04:36	beamso	lein check tells you the methods in your project that are using reflection
04:36	jph-	beamso, ahh, got it
04:36	beamso	i think warn-on-reflection is the setting in the repl
04:36	TEttinger	type hints are important for making clojure run faster, and the doc thing is nice too
04:37	jph-	oh so it also allows optimization when JITing
04:37	jph-	ok
05:40	ivan-kanis	what's the equivalent of CL progn in clojure?
05:40	clgv	ivan-kanis: `do`
05:41	ivan-kanis	ok
05:41	clgv	,(do (println 1) (println 2) 3)
05:41	clgv	&(do (println 1) (println 2) 3)
05:41	lazybot	⇒ 1 2 3
05:41	clojurebot	1\n2\n3
05:41	clgv	hm ok not that illustrative with the bots
05:42	clgv	&(+ 5 (do (println 1) (println 2) 3))
05:42	lazybot	⇒ 1 2 8
05:42	ivan-kanis	no worry
05:42	ivan-kanis	How do I close the cider repl?
05:43	ArchPy	Clojure for sys admin projects? yea or nay?
05:44	pyr	ArchPy: what type specifically
05:44	ArchPy	pyr: Mostly task automation. But of every kind really.
05:44	ivan-kanis	nm it's C-c C-q
05:44	ArchPy	In a mixed enviroment windows and linux
05:45	mskoud	If startup time is not an issue, i dont see why not.
05:45	ArchPy	mskoud: How is Clojure with .NET?
05:45	pyr	ArchPy: there are really good libs for this in clojure. if you're working with traditional ops persons you're gonna get a bit of pushback
05:48	ArchPy	pyr: I'm curious as to what that would be?
05:48	clgv	ArchPy: probably "nay" when you need fast startup times
05:48	pyr	ArchPy: because clojure doesn't even remotely look like bash
05:49	pyr	ArchPy: mostly :-)
05:50	clgv	ArchPy: Clojure CLR is tracking Clojure JVM closely afair
05:50	ArchPy	pyr: Well, I dont really use bash. My day to day automation is powershell in windows. And when I need to do most of my basic stuff in linux its python / puppet.
05:51	ArchPy	I mean, I guess I do use bash. But not really in the toolmaking category.
05:52	clgv	ArchPy: powershell has a tight .NET integration right?
05:52	ArchPy	I guess I was wondering if there are any unique advantage to using Clojure for toolmaking
05:52	ArchPy	clgv: It's ridiculously good. Super-fast and easy.
05:53	ArchPy	clgv: Powershell has kind of revolutionized my job. It's not ugly and painful like vbscript. With just object-piping and a ForEach loop half of what I need is done.
05:53	clgv	ArchPy: well if Clojure's .NET interop is as good as the on for Java then you should try how far you come
05:54	ArchPy	clgv: Could you rephrase that? I dont think I totally understood you.
05:59	rocknrollMarc	powershell is windows only right?
05:59	rocknrollMarc	have you tryed the fish shell? that one realy kicks as
05:59	rocknrollMarc	s
06:00	xsyn	zsh ?
06:00	rocknrollMarc	http://fishshell.com/
06:01	rocknrollMarc	I usualy use zsh but this new one is realy better but im switching slowly maybe I wont but Im using bolth as fish has realy nice completion
06:01	rocknrollMarc	is you have a mac and use vim like me have a look at this please https://github.com/skwp/dotfiles
06:35	dsrx	who needs fish or zsh when you have eshell? ;)
06:39	xsyn	or cshell
06:39	xsyn	(on the sea shore)
06:53	sm0ke	hello all
06:53	sm0ke	what clojure datastructure should i use which is composite and comparable aprt from lists vectors
06:54	sm0ke	,(sort [{:a 1} {:a 3}])
06:54	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap cannot be cast to java.lang.Comparable>
07:11	CookedGryphon	sm0ke: what are you trying to achieve there?
07:11	CookedGryphon	,(sort-by key [{:a 1} {:a 3}])
07:11	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry>
07:11	CookedGryphon	oh, oops
07:11	sm0ke	,(sort-by :a [{:a 1} {:a 3}])
07:11	clojurebot	({:a 1} {:a 3})
07:11	CookedGryphon	,(sort-by :a [{:a 1} {:a 3}])
07:11	clojurebot	({:a 1} {:a 3})
07:12	sm0ke	yea i dont want to sort, i want data abstraction which can have multiple components and be comparable
07:13	sm0ke	so for instance ##(sort [[:a 1] [:a 2] [:a -1] [:z 0]])
07:13	lazybot	⇒ ([:a -1] [:a 1] [:a 2] [:z 0])
07:13	sm0ke	makes sense right?
07:14	sm0ke	but only that i am not allowed to use list
07:15	sm0ke	athough weird requirement, i think one way would be to have a Record which implments Comparable
07:17	sm0ke	its weird though that maps have equality but are not comparable
07:17	sm0ke	,(= {:a 1} {:a 1})
07:17	clojurebot	true
07:17	sm0ke	,(compare {:a 1} {:a 1})
07:17	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap cannot be cast to java.lang.Comparable>
07:22	pyrtsa	sm0ke: Unlike equality comparison, there is no cheap inequality comparison for maps.
07:23	pyrtsa	So that's, AFAICT, the reason there is no such thing defined by default.
07:23	sm0ke	true
07:24	pyrtsa	(The keys of a map aren't sorted, so you need to iterate over all the keys of both maps before you know what to compare.)
07:26	sm0ke	unless its a sorted map
07:26	sm0ke	,(compare (sorted-map :a 1) (sorted-map :a 1))
07:26	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentTreeMap cannot be cast to java.lang.Comparable>
07:27	pyrtsa	Why don't you just create your own comparator for that?
07:27	sm0ke	yea doing that
07:35	clgv	ArchPy: my guess is that Clojure CLR interop with .NET is probably as good as Clojure JVM interop with the JVM/Java
07:35	clgv	ArchPy: I did not tray it yet though
07:38	CookedGryphon	does anybody know of any libraries which nicely wrap safe posixy atomic file operations?
07:39	CookedGryphon	I can't seem to find anything
07:40	sm0ke	CookedGryphon: wouldnt anything over jvm be already posixy?
07:41	CookedGryphon	different part of posix :P I mean the safe atomic read/write conventions
07:41	CookedGryphon	so for example if your process crashes half way through a save, you don't have a corrupt file left on disk and the previous version completely lost
07:42	BartAdv	clgv> ArchPy: my guess is that Clojure CLR interop with .NET is probably as good as Clojure JVM interop with the JVM/Java <- there are some inconveniences with generics, as there are differences in that regard etween jvm and .net
07:44	clgv	BartAdv: ah ok. yeah in .NET genrics are at vm-level right?
07:45	BartAdv	yes
07:46	sm0ke	anyone working with nippy had problem with de/se of Records?
08:32	abcdw	Are any GSoC mentors here?
08:48	clgv	abcdw: more likely in a few hours (2-3)
09:05	abcdw	why this channel is so silent?)
09:05	teslanick	People are busy working on great stuff?
09:06	clgv	because the vast number of US people is not here, yet
09:06	fu86	Is there a function to prepend a string to another which I can use in a (-> ...) form?
09:06	cemerick	+1 to irc channels that aren't busy just to be busy :-)
09:07	clgv	fu86: I guess you are not threading the prefix, right?
09:07	clgv	fu86: in that case you probably need a custom function to do that
09:07	fu86	clgv: ok, thanks
09:09	hyPiRion	fu86: ##(-> "foobar" ((partial str "p:")))
09:09	lazybot	⇒ "p:foobar"
09:10	hyPiRion	eventually just use ##(-> "foobar" (->> (str "p:")) (str "-postfix))
09:10	cemerick	there's always ##(-> "foobar" (->> (str "p:")))
09:10	lazybot	⇒ "p:foobar"
09:10	cemerick	my irc game has gone stale :-P
09:11	hyPiRion	cemerick: well, you didn't forget to end the string :)
09:12	fu86	is ->> inside a -> okay?
09:13	cemerick	it's probably overly-clever, but yes
09:13	hyPiRion	I tend to use as-> inside -> in small doses, so I guess it is okay
09:13	cemerick	as-> is perhaps a better option
09:14	fu86	thanks a lot!
09:14	hyPiRion	fu86: I think it just boils down to preference at that point. As long as it is readable and consistent in a project, you should be fine :)
09:15	clgv	hyPiRion: yeah but this form defeats the point of the threading somehow
09:15	fu86	okay. I still having some trouble finding "the clojure way"^TM
09:40	jjl`	/win 42
09:40	fu86	http://hastebin.com/jupapeyixe.lisp
09:40	fu86	is there a better way to write this?
09:40	devn	so weird and "magic" that midje has "typo tolerance" just 'cause
09:41	devn	"Experience has shown that it's easy to type ..mc... when you meant to type ...mc.... As of Midje 1.3-alpha5, the two are resolved to the same metaconstant. The same is true of --mc--- and ---mc---. It is not the case, however, that ..mc.. is the same metaconstant as --mc--."
09:41	devn	blech.
09:43	shep-werk	devn: metaconstant is close enough to magicconstant anyway ;-)
09:43	devn	i have no idea why anyone would litter their codebase with something to do that. it's tantamount to saying: "experience has shown that people regularly mis-spell and, so from this point on in clojure, "adn" will also resolve to and"
09:44	devn	that's where you just go:
09:46	jjl`	they do this in npm
09:48	mikerod	,(let [or #'clojure.core/or] (or 1 2))
09:48	clojurebot	nil
09:49	mikerod	,(let [or #'clojure.core/or] (or 1 2))
09:49	clojurebot	nil
09:49	mikerod	Why?
09:49	clojurebot	http://clojure.org/rationale
09:50	clgv	mikerod: first of all `or` is a macro so that did not have any chance to work at all
09:55	shep-werk	clgv: the macroexpand for it looks reasonable though...
09:55	shep-werk	,(let* [or #'clojure.core/or] (let* [or__3943__auto__ 1] (if or__3943__auto__ or__3943__auto__ 2)))
09:55	clojurebot	1
09:56	berdario	I just noticed a weird thing, if I have nested `send`s (that is, I send a function to an agent, and inside that function another function is sent to the same agent) the agent loses part of its state
09:57	berdario	(the agent contains a vector, logging the value before the inner send it is a 2 element vector, logging the value inside the function that was "inner-sent" it's a 1 element-vector)
09:57	berdario	I guess that the execution order of functions sent in this way isn't well defined... is this expected behavior?
09:58	Bronsa	mikerod: you need to take into account &form and &env
09:59	Bronsa	,(#'or nil nil 1 2)
09:59	clojurebot	(clojure.core/let [or__3947__auto__ 1] (if or__3947__auto__ or__3947__auto__ (clojure.core/or 2)))
10:00	clgv	shep-werk: I think macroexpand makes an error there and deviates from the compiler behavior
10:01	shep-werk	clgv: combined with Bronsa's point about form/env, that would make sense
10:01	Bronsa	clgv: an error?
10:01	clgv	shep-werk: ah so you think his point was to get the macroexpandion with that let form?
10:04	shep-werk	clgv: you mean mikerod's original goal? I don't dare wager a guess :-)
10:07	clgv	shep-werk: yeah I focussed on the original ;)
10:08	shep-werk	clgv: so, what do you think is up with macroexpand in this case?
10:10	mikerod	clgv: so I'm still confused by this behavior :)
10:10	mikerod	I have a chunk of unevaluated code. I want to qualify all of the unqualified symbols in it, if they can be.
10:10	mikerod	but I want to respect local shadowing.
10:10	mikerod	So I had this good idea, of just shadowing all the symbols
10:10	mikerod	In an outer-let
10:11	mikerod	that wraps the original form
10:11	mikerod	...
10:11	clgv	shep-werk: nothing. as Bronsa pointed out there are the two "hidden" parameters to every macro
10:12	clgv	mikerod: maybe you want macro-symbol-let from tools.macros
10:12	mikerod_	I was knocked out of the channel
10:12	clgv	mikerod_: maybe you want macro-symbol-let from tools.macros
10:12	mikerod_	I will look at that
10:12	mikerod_	I think I've heard of it before.
10:13	mikerod_	I am curious about this behavior though. I guess I could dig into the evaluation to understand it.
10:13	mikerod_	,(let [or #'clojure.core/or] (or 1 2 3))
10:13	clojurebot	3
10:13	quizdr	cemerick hyperion what is the double hash symbol for? ##
10:13	mikerod_	(let [or #'clojure.core/or] (or 1))
10:13	Bronsa	mikerodor is a macro
10:13	mikerod_	,(let [or #'clojure.core/or] (or 1))
10:13	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core/or>
10:13	mikerod_	Very strange
10:13	Bronsa	if you get the var of a macro you can invoke that as a function
10:13	mikerod_	Bronsa: it seems to work on 3 arity?
10:13	mikerod_	,(let [or #'clojure.core/or] (or 1 2 3))
10:13	clojurebot	3
10:14	mikerod_	,(let [or #'clojure.core/or] (or 1 2 3 4))
10:14	clojurebot	(clojure.core/let [or__3947__auto__ 3] (if or__3947__auto__ or__3947__auto__ (clojure.core/or 4)))
10:14	mikerod_	oh
10:14	Bronsa	mikerod_ every macro has 2 implicit args
10:14	Bronsa	&form and &env
10:14	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: form in this context
10:14	mikerod_	ah
10:14	mikerod_	Bronsa: I see what you mean now.
10:14	mikerod_	tricky
10:16	honza	http://honza.ca/2014/03/how-to-use-piggieback-in-vim-fireplace-to-hack-cljs
10:24	clgv	honza: a lot of text for 2 relevant lines ;)
10:25	honza	word :)
10:51	matthavener	does clojure's PersistentHashMap handle avoiding collision DoS attacks?
10:57	TimMc	matthavener: I don't believe so.
10:58	stuartsierra	How could it?
10:58	TimMc	Hmm, maybe in 1.6 it will.
10:59	TimMc	In master, it uses Util/hasheq, which for String uses the Murmur3 hash.
11:01	TimMc	,clojure-version
11:01	clojurebot	{:interim true, :major 1, :minor 6, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"}
11:01	clgv	matthavener: you'll need a cryptographic hash function to do that (i.e. a hash function for which it is computationally hard to find collisions)
11:07	matthavener	clgv: yeah, agreed, if you need the cryptographic collision prevention.. but i'm just referring to the problem that ruby had:
11:08	matthavener	clgv: where the hashcode was the same for given data on every proecess, so it was trivial to generate collisions that worked against every ruby instance
11:08	matthavener	according to this: http://vaskoz.wordpress.com/2013/04/06/java-7-hashing-drastically-better-than-java-6/ , hashCode and murmur use some kind of seed entropy
11:10	tbaldridge	I'd have to search the ML but there was a discussion about this about a year or so ago
11:10	tbaldridge	some languages like Lua and Ruby IIRC had some serious issues with this, but it wasn't so bad in Clojure.
11:10	felher	Hey folks. I very often would like to use 'type' or 'key' as names for my arguments of some functions. Those names are taken, though, and IIRC it is considered to be bad style shadowing those names. Is there a convention that adresses this problem? Prefixing with '_' for example?
11:13	tbaldridge	part of the problem in Lua was that it only hashed the first 32 characters of the string
11:15	TimMc	hah, nice
11:15	TimMc	,(map #(clojure.lang.Util/hasheq %) ["Aa" "BB"])
11:15	clojurebot	(2112 2112)
11:16	cbp	o_O
11:17	TimMc	,(map #(clojure.lang.Util/hasheq %) ["AaAaAaAa" "BBBBBBBB"])
11:17	clojurebot	(-540425984 -540425984)
11:18	TimMc	hiredman: How recent is clojurebot's clojure.core?
11:18	xeqi	,clojure-version
11:18	clojurebot	{:interim true, :major 1, :minor 6, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"}
11:19	xeqi	hmm, that doesn't help with the hash changes :/
11:22	TimMc	Oh, wait...
11:22	TimMc	return Murmur3.hashInt(o.hashCode());
11:22	TimMc	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Util.java#L172
11:22	tbaldridge	Yeah, that was put in yesterday
11:22	tbaldridge	to handle perf problems with re-hashing large strings.
11:23	TimMc	fail
11:23	tbaldridge	how so?
11:24	TimMc	Well, if the output of hashCode is alreayd a collision, how will running it through Murmur3 do any good?
11:26	TimMc	,clojure.lang.Murmur3
11:26	Bronsa	TimMc: I've wondered that too
11:26	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.lang.Murmur3, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
11:28	Bronsa	TimMc: that collision still happens in clojure HEAD btw
11:30	TimMc	of course
11:32	tbaldridge	did those strings hash differently before this latest patch?
11:33	TimMc	No, that's a known problem with java.lang.String/hashCode
11:34	TimMc	&(map #(clojure.lang.Util/hasheq %) ["AaAaAaAa" "BBBBBBBB"])
11:34	lazybot	⇒ (-540425984 -540425984)
11:34	tbaldridge	So the problem is this. Switching to pure Murmur3 causes perf problems when people use large strings as keys (see ML thread on 1.6)
11:34	TimMc	Yeah, I don't have an answer. :-(
11:34	tbaldridge	Switching to the way it is now restores perf at the loss of better hashing for strings.
11:35	Bronsa	tbaldridge: in RC1 they hashed differently, yes
11:35	Bronsa	user=> ,(map #(clojure.lang.Murmur3/hashUnencodedChars %) ["Aa" "BB"])
11:35	Bronsa	(208255379 -1956385023)
11:35	TimMc	tbaldridge: Oh, misunderstood your question, sorry.
11:36	tbaldridge	And I pinged rich off channel for comments about hashing the hashCode of string, reply: "those hashcodes incorporate arithmetic relationships between the values of characters that reemerge when you combine them, rehashing scrambles so that doesn't happen"
11:36	tbaldridge	"hashcodes get combined in collection hashes"
11:37	TimMc	what
11:38	TimMc	OK, brainstorm: Murmur3(o.hashCode() + Murmur3(head(o)))
11:39	TimMc	That feels icky and I don't know jack about hashing algorithms, but it is probably strictly better than what we have now, in both perf and collision resistance.
11:39	TimMc	(where head(o) is like Lua's approach(
11:39	tbaldridge	Sadly I don't know much more about any of this to comment, if there are concerns try a ML post. Alex reads those and responds quite quickly.
11:40	TimMc	ok
11:40	tbaldridge	And these days he's kindof the Clojure curator
11:43	clgv	TimMc: I think you are right, that "murmuring" the hashcode java provides defeats the purpuse of using murmur at all in the string case
11:45	clgv	humm is string hashing fixed in java 8? there was some talk that hashing was improved in that release
11:46	shep-werk	TimMc: Why murmur the sum of codes?
11:47	shep-werk	Why not just combine them; like o.hashCode combine murmur(head(o))
11:47	TimMc	shep-werk: (Not necessarily sum, just some combining function.) Because Murmur is better at hashing strings, but hashCode takes into account the whole string.
11:47	shep-werk	right, that's why you want to combine them; I think we are on the same page
11:47	TimMc	so s/+/⊕/
11:47	shep-werk	heh, is this #APL now
11:47	tbaldridge	The problem wasn't that Murmur wasn't hashing the entire string, the problem is that .hashCode caches the hash. Can't do that if you switch up the hashing method
11:48	TimMc	Alex Miller says that Murmur on String/hashCode is still valuable for the collection hashing characteristics: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/commit/50c9095b3e72b2d7a9a9f93838b147c3d99c6dd0#commitcomment-5744987
11:48	katox	dnolen_: I gave a almost 2.5h talk at Prague Lambda yesterday on om and react, http://www.slideshare.net/katoxidl/om-react-1
11:48	katox	dnolen_: react attracted many newcomers (mostly js devs), Om received more quite a few nods and boomarks, I think you made a few converts yesterday, well done ;)
11:49	dnolen_	katox: that's awesome!
11:50	katox	dnolen_: the coolest part was watching js devs eyeballs rolling when showing them map identity comparison in om source ;)
11:53	dnolen_	katox: heh
11:58	katox	dnolen_: I don't even know when they updated React Dev tools, but when I opened the console the new display names were there, also quite nice
11:58	katox	dnolen_: It might be handy to update om/component to include it by default
11:58	dnolen_	katox: yep, there's no way to include it by default - but there's a ticket for om/component to take an additional parameter for this
11:58	katox	dnolen_: that's what I meant
11:59	CookedGryphon	In core async, is there a neat way to wait on a mult closing?
12:00	CookedGryphon	Other than consuming and throwing away everything until I get a nil
12:01	tbaldridge	CookedGryphon: nope
12:01	tbaldridge	besides a separate "close" channel that you close after the mult closes
12:02	CookedGryphon	tbaldridge: Fair enough, I'll just make a separate close channel for things to listen to rather than consuming it in multiple places
12:06	puredanger	hello gentle Clojure friends
12:06	puredanger	matthavener: your original question about PHM and collision DoS attacks is a good one
12:07	puredanger	and something that could be addressed in the Murmur3 class by creating a seed like Java 7 does (or using theirs) instead of seeding to 0
12:07	matthavener	puredanger: thanks :)
12:08	matthavener	according to this, http://java-performance.info/changes-to-string-java-1-7-0_06/ , in java 7 String has a hash32() method which is cached and seeded via time
12:10	TimMc	Oh huh, I didn't know that Java 7 made String/substring linear.
12:10	puredanger	thx - that's interesting.
12:10	puredanger	I knew about some but not all of those changes
12:10	puredanger	I also was not aware that sun.misc.Hashing has a murmur3 impl which we might be able to use directly
12:11	puredanger	when we require java 7+ that is :)
12:14	puredanger	you can just mail clojure@googlegroups.com if you're in the group
12:14	TimMc	I was trying to find a/the existing discussion to reply to.
12:15	puredanger	https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure/K6W7DbxV0Cw
12:15	mercwithamouth	hmmm so i'm going through web development in clojure. I've just started the picture gallery app and I'm running into a little issue https://gist.github.com/anonymous/9667479
12:16	TimMc	Oh! Thanks.
12:16	mercwithamouth	here's an updated version with my project.clj and handler.clj files https://gist.github.com/anonymous/9667520
12:16	puredanger	TimMc: although, I think it would be perfectly reasonable to raise the cryptographic DoS issue specifically on clojure-dev instead
12:17	cbp	mercwithamouth: need the .repl namespace too
12:17	cbp	file i mean
12:17	trptcolin	mercwithamouth: first guess, probably need to (require 'picture-gallery.repl). in-ns doesn't require anything
12:18	mercwithamouth	ahh
12:20	TimMc	(I have a particularly slow internet connection this week, which is making things difficult.)
12:20	clgv	puredanger: you dont want cryptographic hashing in Clojure's datastructuers since you want fast hashing with a good scattering
12:20	clgv	but real cryptographic ones are much slower than e.g. murmur
12:21	puredanger	yeah, I'm not suggesting that
12:22	puredanger	I'm suggesting that creating a per-VM unique seed would be useful as in http://vaskoz.wordpress.com/2013/04/06/java-7-hashing-drastically-better-than-java-6/
12:22	puredanger	and then using Murmur3 as we do now
12:23	mercwithamouth	hmm still no bueno.
12:23	mercwithamouth	i'll take a few more minutes to see where my ignorance lies...
12:25	mercwithamouth	ok
12:29	sandwichmaker	mercwithamouth: from your last gist link I can't see where is the start-server defined. For development, I tipically defined as: (defonce server (run-jetty #'handler/app-handler {:port 8080 :join? false}))
12:31	sandwichmaker	mercwithamouth: and then (.start server)
12:35	mercwithamouth	ahh i did lein new compojure [blah]... compojure-app gives me the setup i'm familiar with
12:35	sandwichmaker	merchwithamouth: and if you want to know about the different parameters present in that run-jetty map you can go to http://ring-clojure.github.io/ring/ring.adapter.jetty.html
12:35	mercwithamouth	sandwichmaker: yeah, i noticed that when i went back to look at a previous web app i toyed with and realized no project.repl existed in the first place. wrong template =P
12:36	sandwichmaker	mercwithamouth: :)
12:38	mercwithamouth	can't squeeze blood from a turnip...
12:45	TimMc	Hmm, another approach for hashDoS would be to avoid eagerly parsing the querystring and postbody, and instead asking for all params with keys in a known set or matching a pattern.
12:46	TimMc	You could even use a destructuring syntax, I htink.
12:46	puredanger	TimMc: I notice that they undid a lot of that hashing stuff in Java 8
12:47	puredanger	looks like they moved it down into hotspot itself for Strings
12:48	puredanger	http://docs.oracle.com/javase/8/docs/technotes/guides/collections/changes8.html
12:48	puredanger	they changed hash map impl such that collisions are held as a tree, not a list and address that root problem
12:49	Bronsa	I just realized that in {:AaAa 1 :BBBB 2} the keys will collide because of the last commit
12:51	Bronsa	the collision propagates to keywords and symbols since they use the string hash
12:51	TimMc	Bronsa: But as someone noted on the ML, symbols and keywords have the opportunity to cache their own fancier hashes.
12:51	puredanger	we have a fix for that issue in the queue already (on keywords and symbols)
12:51	Bronsa	puredanger: oh ok
12:52	hyPiRion	huh
12:52	puredanger	we will murmur3 the name and ns parts
12:52	Bronsa	seems reasonable
12:53	puredanger	specifically Util.hashCombine(Murmur3.hashUnencodedChars(name), ns==null?0:Murmur3.hashUnencodedChars(ns))
12:53	TimMc	I'm not a huge fan of converting strings to keywords everywhere (I don't like that they're non-roundtrippable in the general case) but it works out nicely here.
12:53	hlship	Haveing an issue with namespaces and meta-data
12:53	hlship	I have a namespace with meta:
12:54	hlship	https://gist.github.com/anonymous/cd5db37da6bed1da9a15
12:54	hlship	But (-> 'io.aviso.rook-test5 find-ns meta) is nil
12:55	Bronsa	hlship: are you AOT compiling that namesapce?
12:55	hlship	Nope, this is all at the REPL
12:56	tomjack	hashDoS?
12:56	Bronsa	hlship: what version of clojure? this works on my repl
12:56	TimMc	tomjack: http://events.ccc.de/congress/2011/Fahrplan/attachments/2007_28C3_Effective_DoS_on_web_application_platforms.pdf (PDF)
12:56	hlship	1.5.1
12:56	tomjack	TimMc: this is a problem we already had in 1.5.1?
12:57	hlship	It looks like its an artifact of re-loading a namespace.
12:57	cbp	hlship: maybe you havent required that namespace?
12:57	tomjack	I got scared that a 1.6 RC had a "hashDoS" problem :)
12:57	TimMc	Yeah..
12:57	tomjack	ok, cool
12:57	hlship	It looks like when you re-load a namespace, any meta for it is not changed
12:57	Bronsa	hlship: right
12:57	hlship	is that intentional or a bug?
12:58	Bronsa	honestly I don't know. metadata on namespaces is a bit weird
12:59	hlship	I do get correct results using ns-remove before reloading the namespace
13:00	hlship	I know reloading a namespace can be a bit odd
13:00	Bronsa	that's to be expected. right now the behaviour is that the ns gets the metadata of the symbol naming the namespace when the namespace is first created
13:00	hlship	yes, that's not ideal for me
13:01	Bronsa	AFAIK this is what causes problems with metadata on AOT compiled namespaces
13:01	Bronsa	I tried debugging it in the past but got bored before finding a solution.
13:01	hlship	Is this a known issue or should I go add one?
13:02	hlship	this is extra wierd in that I'm provding an attribute map for the namespace (as opposed to meta-data on the symbol)
13:02	hlship	that should either take precedence or be merged
13:02	hlship	I think I'd prefer precendence
13:02	Bronsa	hlship: I don't see a bug in JIRA for this, I'd say go open one
13:03	mmitchell	Question... I have a set of functions, that talk with an http service. In order to facilitate simpler testing, I’d like to pass these functions as an argument to my app code - not reference a namespace. I have this setup as a protocol now, but because I don’t envision ever having alternative implementations (except for tests), but I am considering a map of functions instead. So I guess the question is… is using a protoc
13:03	mmitchell	ol to achieve cleaner testing a valid approach? Or, would using the map of functions be a better way?
13:06	noonian	does anyone know if you can configure light table to recognize certain files that don't have extensions to use a particular language editor?
13:07	noonian	i.e. Gemfile or Vagrantfile to use ruby; :lt.objs.files/file-types works great but only seems to be configurable by extension
13:09	hlship	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1389
13:12	mindbender1	,(dissoc {:a {:b {:c 1}}} [:a :b] :c)
13:12	clojurebot	{:a {:b {:c 1}}}
13:12	TimMc	mindbender1: It's not dissoc-in
13:12	mindbender1	,(dissoc-in {:a {:b {:c 1}}} [:a :b] :c)
13:12	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: dissoc-in in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
13:12	TimMc	Yeha. :-(
13:13	mindbender1	,(defn dissoc-in [m ks k]
13:13	mindbender1	(update-in m ks #(dissoc % k)))
13:13	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
13:13	TimMc	*yeah
13:13	TimMc	mindbender1: And update-in doesn't do the right thing in the base case.
13:13	hyPiRion	It's not evident what dissoc-in would do iirc
13:14	TimMc	mindbender1: And update-in doesn't do the right thing in the base case.
13:14	TimMc	ugh
13:14	TimMc	&(update-in {} [] assoc 1 2)
13:14	lazybot	⇒ {nil {1 2}}
13:14	mindbender1	I think it should be patched then?
13:14	mindbender1	TimMc:
13:17	TimMc	I agree. I don't remember if there's a Jira ticket open for it.
13:18	puredanger	there are at least 2 tickets for this already
13:19	puredanger	coming at it from different angles
13:19	puredanger	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-373
13:19	mindbender1	puredanger: If you're looking at the link now can you share?
13:19	mindbender1	ok
13:20	puredanger	(was finding - just knew from memory)
13:21	tutysara	I recently started doing frontend development using angular, having used clojure for some time, I am missing the jump-to-source and jump-to-definition functions offered by cider. Do we have anything similar to nrepl for coding interactive javascript with angular
13:21	puredanger	mindbender1: feel free to vote on that if you want to raise visibility, I would like to fix it as it trips people up
13:24	mindbender1	puredanger: sure!
13:31	bodie_	just curious whether anyone's got any input about opengl interfaces for clojure? is LWJGL suitable? I'm working on a game engine right now and weighing between scala, clojure and C++/SDL for my approach.
13:32	stuartsierra	mmitchell: I like the protocol approach, because that's what protocols are for. I assume that virtual method dispatch in Java is always going to be faster than a hash-map lookup.
13:32	mmitchell	stuartsierra: ahh good point
13:34	tbaldrid_	bodie_: the OpenGL interface is so simple just about any Java binding would work
13:34	tbaldrid_	bodie_: but you haven't explained what you're trying to do
13:37	bodie_	tbaldridge, make an extensible base so I can start some really minimal work on a game -- I have something pretty unique in mind for the mechanics so I'm trying to put my own thing together under the hood
13:37	bodie_	not quite sure what you're looking for beyond that :)
13:38	jjl`	use unity3d?
13:38	bodie_	doesn't really fit the bill, I'm academically interested in engine programming anyway
13:38	tbaldridge	bodie_: yeah, then a simple OpenGL binding will work. If you were looking to visualize 500GB of medical data, I might suggest something else.
13:39	bodie_	ah, I see
13:39	bodie_	cause data structures and heap behavior?
13:39	bodie_	it's a voxel rts kind of thing with lots of units on screen, so... might be vaguely comparable
13:39	bodie_	why?
13:39	clojurebot	why not?
13:40	bodie_	^ clever :D
13:40	jballanc	clojurebot: botsnack
13:40	clojurebot	Thanks, but I prefer chocolate
13:41	jballanc	clojurebot: chocolate
13:41	clojurebot	actually I decided I prefer botsnacks after all.
13:41	jballanc	clojurebot: recursion
13:41	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
13:41	arrdem	(inc clojurebot)
13:41	lazybot	⇒ 35
13:41	hyPiRion	oh woah, when did clojurebot reply on chocolate? That's a neat easter egg
13:45	tbaldridge	bodie_: there's some technical stuff that may cause issues if you're attempting to stream tons of data to/from a GPU. I don't see it being a problem for most games as you'll probably stream the data once and leave it there
13:46	tbaldridge	bodie_: namely, Clojure likes to work with doubles and not floats. So if you're doing tons of CPU processing of float data you might run into issues.
13:47	tbaldridge	like I said, not a problem for a prototype, and easy enough to work around when it comes to optimizing. That's what I love about Clojure easy to prototype, not hard to optimize when the time comes.
13:53	borkdude	Does this, or something similar already exist in clojure? https://www.refheap.com/62421
13:55	ssa	does anyone know how to intern a defmethod?
13:57	amalloy	ssa: they're not interned, so no
13:57	ssa	ok
13:57	amalloy	borkdude: that looks like comp?
13:57	ssa	maybe i should describe my problem
13:58	ssa	i'm using liberator and trying to override one of its defmethods -- specifically its json encoding
13:58	amalloy	like, (filter= :a 2 coll) is (filter (comp #{2} :a) coll)
13:59	ssa	i added a defmethod in my project that i thought would "override" the original
13:59	ssa	it does seem to override it some, but not all the time
13:59	ssa	so i thought it could be a binding issue?
13:59	ssa	is this a good intuition or no?
14:01	amalloy	ssa: probably not. if you succeed in overwriting a defmethod, the original is gone and nobody's the wiser. perhaps liberator sometimes goes through that defmulti and sometimes does something else, or perhaps it sometimes has a different dispatch value and thus goes through a different method
14:02	ssa	interesting, ok, thanks amalloy. i'll do some more investigating, cheers
14:03	amalloy	or you might be reloading the liberator namespaces, which re-tramples back over your definition, ssa
14:05	bodie_	thanks for the input, tbaldridge
14:06	ssa	i see what you're saying; i have a feeling that isn't happening -- only one endpoint has this problem (defmethod isn't overwritten), whereas the other endpoints are ok (defmethod is overwritten)
14:06	SegFaultAX	Anyone played with EEP?
14:11	AeroNotix	is weavejester around?
14:11	AeroNotix	or do they have a different handle in IRC?
14:13	hyPiRion	$seen weavejester
14:13	lazybot	weavejester was last seen joining on clojure 2 weeks ago.
14:13	AeroNotix	heh, nice!
14:32	borkdude	What is the common clojure way to deal with (compare 1 "foo") => Exception?
14:32	borkdude	amalloy thanks for your reply earlier
14:32	amalloy	borkdude: you're welcome. and: use a different/custom comparator
14:33	borkdude	I kind of solved it like this: (compare 1 (if (string? v) nil v))
15:56	amalloy	borkdude: that's fine if you're calling compare by hand, but that seems pretty rare to me: most uses of compare will be from trying to put things in a sorted collection, no?
16:00	ToBeReplaced	can someone point me to an example using reduced? and reduced
16:01	justin_smith	http://kunstmusik.com/2014/03/20/clojure-and-bluecsound-example/ blog post on using clojure with blue (a java csound frontend)
16:03	JavaIsAwful	csound? why use csound when there's overtone
16:03	ToBeReplaced	nevermind reduced question, got there
16:04	AeroNotix	is it a pita to integrate midje and core.test?
16:04	AeroNotix	or will it be fine enough?
16:07	justin_smith	JavaIsAwful: csound has better performance, more diversity in its audio processing functions, and better low level control. The main benefit of sc is the more flexible language, which you are going around anyway with a clojure frontend.
16:07	JavaIsAwful	I suppose that's a good point
16:07	JavaIsAwful	the clojure frontend bit
16:08	JavaIsAwful	didn't know csound performed better than sc
16:08	justin_smith	I switched from sc csound when I got a nokia n900
16:08	dacc	i thought sc was more interactive than csound?
16:08	justin_smith	on a small mobile device like that, csound was fully functional (and much fun) and sc was useless
16:08	justin_smith	dacc: latest csound allows definition of instruments at runtime
16:09	justin_smith	(and redefinition)
16:09	justin_smith	it also compiles to pnacl such that you can run it in a chrome browser(!)
16:09	bob2	AeroNotix, integrate how?
16:10	bob2	pretty sure midje runs core.test tests
16:10	justin_smith	http://vlazzarini.github.io/ (link to run csound in your browser)
16:12	justin_smith	I have thought of using clojurescript to control the pnacl csound port
16:17	ToBeReplaced	does reducers/fold allow you to set reduced on each subgroup? can't seem to get it to function
16:17	dacc	justin_smith: wow cool
16:18	garietyxxx	Hi, #clojure, I'd like to write a Node.js app in Clojure, but I'm confused as to ClojureScripts association with the Closure compiler. Google Closure and Node use different `require` formats, so how could they possibly work together?
16:19	justin_smith	dacc: be sure to check out stria
16:19	justin_smith	an excellent piece of computer music, all algrorithmic, generated in the browser
16:21	dbell	is there a clean idiomatic way to have to two different datatypes share implementation of the same protocol? Would you just write a common function and then reference the function when extending?
16:22	amalloy	ToBeReplaced: i wouldn't expect reduced to make sense in the context of a fold
16:26	amalloy	dbell: you can use extend (rather than extend-type/extend-protocol) to pass in a map of all the functions. otoh, you may want to double-check whether you really want a protocol and not just a function, if you need multiple identical implementations
16:26	seangrove	dnolen_: I'd like my components to implement another protocol, zr/IPreview, and to have my Om instrumentation be able to select between using om/IRender and zr/IPreview - basically swapping out the rendering methods. Any ideas on how to approach that
16:26	seangrove	?
16:27	stuartsierra	garietyxxx: I think ClojureScript apps targeting Node.js do not use the G.Closure compiler. But it's not an area I know much about.
16:27	dbell	sorry, I realized i wasn't clear;
16:27	dbell	it's a third-party type/protocol pair
16:27	amalloy	yikes. i mean, it's not against the law, but you should be cautious when extending a protocol you don't control for a type you don't control
16:28	dbell	oh, sorry
16:28	dbell	still not clear
16:28	dbell	trying to extend the protocol
16:28	dbell	to my type
16:28	dbell	and wanting to use the implementation of the 3rd-party type
16:28	dbell	i mean i can just copy paste
16:28	dbell	but...
16:29	amalloy	so type T implements protocol P, and you want an identical implementation for your type S?
16:29	seangrove	dbell: You want a type that basically wraps a third-party type, so you can safely extend protocols to it?
16:29	dbell	yeah
16:30	justin_smith	dacc: woah, going directly to that piece, I see it is by the guy who invented FM synthesis http://vlazzarini.github.io/stria
16:30	amalloy	there's not much to share then
16:31	dbell	yeah something tells me i've got a logic problem rather than a not-knowing-clojure-feature problem
16:31	amalloy	you just have to copy/paste or something, if the code is not in a function you can use
16:31	dnolen_	seangrove: what's the difference between those two methods exactly?
16:33	seangrove	dnolen_: One renders a dummy/mockup version of the component (possibly with drop-target for sub-components to be built) with resizing/editing handles, the other renders exactly as the production version of the component
16:35	seangrove	dnolen_: I think I can work around it by making IPreview return a separate Om component. It was messy last time I tried, but I might have better context for it now
16:35	dnolen_	seangrove: why can't you handle this with :instrument? You can intercept and back with a component that will call the preview method instead?
16:37	seangrove	dnolen_: I can, but ultimately Om is going to call (render ...) on it, so I can't provide a preview method alongside my Om methods easily - right now they're separate components
16:37	dnolen_	seangrove: "back with a React component that call preview method instead"
16:37	seangrove	Ahh, ok
16:37	seangrove	Got it
16:38	dnolen_	seangrove: look at how Pure is constructed now in master
16:38	dnolen_	seangrove: you can just create your like Pure is constructed but you just assoc in your custom render method
16:38	dnolen_	om.core/build takes :ctor so you can use your own constructor instead of `pure`
16:39	seangrove	dnolen_: Looks good, thanks
16:41	dnolen_	seangrove: let me know how that goes, that's a pretty cool use of :instrument, replacing all the standard Om components with a custom thing
16:42	seangrove	dnolen_: Just wrapped my head around :instrument yesterday, cleaned up quite a bit of stuff
16:42	dnolen_	seangrove: nice
16:56	JavaIsAwful	when you guys GPL your clojure projects, what do you typically put under :license :name in your project.clj?
16:56	JavaIsAwful	just GNU General Public License?
16:56	JavaIsAwful	or do you include "version 3" after, or whatever version
16:59	bts-	JavaIsAwful: https://github.com/search?q=license+GNU+path%3Aproject.clj&type=Code&ref=searchresults
16:59	JavaIsAwful	bts-: good to see there's no consensus :D
17:12	eraserhd_	Is there a lein plugin that checks for dependency updates?
17:12	eraserhd	Oops.
17:12	technomancy	JavaIsAwful: the GPL is incompatible with Clojure's own license
17:13	devth_	eraserhd: https://github.com/xsc/lein-ancient
17:13	JavaIsAwful	technomancy: but that doesn't mean I can't use it, right?
17:13	JavaIsAwful	technomancy: I'm not licensing clojure with it
17:13	technomancy	JavaIsAwful: you're licensing a derivative work
17:14	hiredman	technomancy: are you a lawyer? you have to tell me if you are
17:14	JavaIsAwful	or a cop
17:14	JavaIsAwful	gotta tell us if you're a cop
17:14	gfredericks	or an angel
17:15	joegallo	he's not a cop, seriously, though, how about that meth?
17:16	technomancy	joegallo: https://twitter.com/NotAPoliceman/status/263447666376187904
17:16	arohner	hiredman: lol
17:16	hiredman	as long as technomancy has some too, then we are ok under attorney client privilege
17:16	joegallo	technomancy: "crime men" i'm dying
17:20	JavaIsAwful	lol, this is pretty great
17:20	JavaIsAwful	thanks for giving me something to waste the next 5 minutes reading
17:24	JavaIsAwful	well, that was a fun 5 minutes
17:27	gfredericks	yeah that was great now lets all go do our favorite drugs and tell each other what/where we're doing
17:34	technomancy	and when
17:39	JavaIsAwful	I'll be going to the corner of 5th and main with my kilo of heroin, everyone and their non-cop friends should join me #yolo #notacop
17:39	JavaIsAwful	at exactly 6pm EST
17:51	arrdem	where's Bronsa when you need him :c forget the time delay between the US and Italy.
17:55	amalloy	arrdem: you can $mail him
17:56	amalloy	not synchronous, of course, but if your development process relies on synchronous access to bronsa you're probably out of luck
17:57	arrdem	hey now.. synchronous access to Clojure contributors tends to be an amazingly viable assumption
17:57	arrdem	see my last 20 months of bothering yall successfully :P
18:01	JavaIsAwful	does using () vs [] make a difference when I use :import?
18:01	JavaIsAwful	in (ns), that is
18:01	gtrak	() is weird imo
18:02	JavaIsAwful	yeah
18:02	JavaIsAwful	I don't like it
18:02	gtrak	but it works
18:02	JavaIsAwful	but [] will work the same?
18:02	gtrak	yea
18:02	JavaIsAwful	ok good
18:02	cbp	java is the best
18:02	JavaIsAwful	I'm looking at a clojure.contrib example that uses [] for everything but :import
18:02	gtrak	ns is a macro, so normally, (blah would call a function called blah, but it just takes it as a list
18:02	JavaIsAwful	gtrak: makes sense
18:02	gtrak	since that's what makes macros macros
18:03	JavaIsAwful	is there any way to force evaluation in a macro's arguments?
18:03	gtrak	the key question is 'when'
18:03	JavaIsAwful	when is there a way?
18:04	gtrak	when do you want it to be evaluated
18:04	JavaIsAwful	no particular example, just wondering
18:04	gtrak	this: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Clojure-Macros
18:04	tbaldridge	JavaIsAwful: it's purely convention, there is no difference between using [] or () in a ns
18:07	JavaIsAwful	does paredit have a way to convert ()'s to []'s?
18:07	gtrak	JavaIsAwful: so that's the long answer, the short answer is you can run eval yourself on the arg in the body of the macro to eval at compile-time, and if the macro returns a data structure, it'll be evaluated just like normal code.
18:07	JavaIsAwful	gtrak: I see
18:08	gtrak	macros run at compile-time, outside-in.
18:08	JavaIsAwful	right
18:08	gtrak	if the return result contains the arg, that'll get evaluated at run-time.
18:09	cbp	JavaIsAwful: yes it does
18:09	gtrak	with normal function call order
18:09	cbp	JavaIsAwful: But I dont remember the keybinding ahahah
18:09	JavaIsAwful	cbp: that's just about everything in paredit for me
18:09	JavaIsAwful	C-left and C-right are about all I can remember :P
18:10	JavaIsAwful	which are really annoying, because I have to move my right hand :\
18:10	Frozenlock	Paredit is making me crazy
18:11	Frozenlock	But apparently it's the best thing since sliced bread...
18:11	JavaIsAwful	Frozenlock: when doing something in paredit makes your hair fall out, don't forget M-x disable-paredit-mode
18:12	tbaldridge	Frozenlock: it takes a bit to get used to, but once you do it's really nice
18:12	_2_Heben2	olaao
18:13	cbp	Actually now tit
18:13	cbp	er
18:13	cbp	now that i remember I
18:13	Frozenlock	always the keyboard
18:13	cbp	now that I remember it might've been light table or emacs live that had it
18:14	cbp	because I remember removing it
18:29	JavaIsAwful	does cider have a keybinding or command to do a `lein run` on the current project?
18:33	cbp	JavaIsAwful: it has a keybinding for jack-in which is kinda like lein repl but not lein run afaik
18:36	JavaIsAwful	cbp: yeah I know about jack-in
18:36	JavaIsAwful	I guess I could jack-in to my project's main file and run (-main) myself
18:38	cbp	JavaIsAwful: Just be careful it doesnt kill your emacs :-D
18:40	JavaIsAwful	cbp: why would it do that?
18:40	JavaIsAwful	I seem to remember that happening in the past
18:40	JavaIsAwful	but never understanding why
18:40	JavaIsAwful	or maybe I'm just thinking about when I got infinite recursion and emacs locked up
18:41	cbp	I dont know it's been a long time since i started a clojure app from emacs, I think i had problems when I ran stuff like shutdown-agents
18:41	JavaIsAwful	and I got to run my favorite shell command
18:41	JavaIsAwful	`killall java` :::)
18:46	JavaIsAwful	so I noticed in the examples for tools.cli, they do things like #(Integer/parseInt %)
18:47	JavaIsAwful	I saw that and thought "that's redundant, I'll just do Integer/parseInt, without the anonymous function"
18:47	JavaIsAwful	lo and behold, I get an exception about being unable to find static field parseInt
18:47	JavaIsAwful	unless I do it like they did
18:47	cbp	static methods arent first class
18:47	amalloy	methods aren't first-class values
18:47	JavaIsAwful	ah
18:47	JavaIsAwful	is there any other way to wrap them in a function?
18:47	Wild_Cat	are they not?
18:48	Wild_Cat	Aww :(
18:48	JavaIsAwful	seems like an ugly way to do things
18:48	amalloy	well uh...use a lambda. like the example
18:48	amalloy	you couldn't really ask for a more convenient way
18:48	JavaIsAwful	I'd rather do something like (some-function Integer/parseInt)
18:48	JavaIsAwful	tried partial but it didn't work
18:49	JavaIsAwful	I mean, using lambdas means assuming something about the arguments it takes
18:49	amalloy	it's not possible if some-function is a function, because Integer/parseInt is not a value. if it were, you wouldn't need to do this at all. you can do it as a macro, which is fine, but it's not really exciting
18:49	brehaut	there is memfn but why be silly. use the lambda
18:49	JavaIsAwful	ohhhh
18:49	amalloy	brehaut: memfn doesn't work for non-member functions
18:49	amalloy	(as implied by its name)
18:49	brehaut	oh thats a static, sorry
18:49	JavaIsAwful	now I understand
18:50	JavaIsAwful	but non-static methods are first class?
18:51	brehaut	no method is first class
18:51	myguidingstar	hi all, I tried Overtone on my Linux box and it crashed whenever I call `(use 'overtone.live)`
18:51	JavaIsAwful	whoops, well running (-main) from cider crashed cider
18:51	myguidingstar	here's the output https://gist.github.com/myguidingstar/897664b8c0c61f89556e
18:51	myguidingstar	I tried to google but found nothing
18:54	JavaIsAwful	is there any good clojure frontend for doing sockets stuff?
18:55	cbp	java.web.socket :-P
18:55	JavaIsAwful	I said clojure!!! :P
18:56	cbp	maybe aleph
18:56	cbp	$google clojure aleph
18:56	lazybot	[ztellman/aleph · GitHub] https://github.com/ztellman/aleph
18:56	amalloy	aleph, and there's another one. clj-http, or http-kit or something?
18:57	cbp	that's actually java.net.Socket duh
18:57	amalloy	cbp: uggghhhhhh, i can't imagine the pain of trying to implement websockets on top of Socket
18:57	clojurebot	Excuse me?
18:57	amalloy	clojurebot: nobody asked you
18:57	clojurebot	No entiendo
18:57	cbp	http-kit has good websocket support
18:58	brehaut	clj-http is the requests library
18:58	noonian	yeah, depends if you want tcp sockets or websockets
18:59	noonian	http-kit is good for websockets but no socket support afaict
18:59	JavaIsAwful	actually, I just need to do udp sockets, not http
19:00	yedi_	newb question: i want to work from within the context of namespace in my repl, how would I go about doing that?
19:00	yedi_	i'm trying to use (in-ns <namespace>) but none of the vars from the namespace seem to be loaded. Also I lose my other core functions like `use` and `keys`
19:00	yedi_	is there a better way to do this
19:00	cbp	yedi_: require the namespace first
19:00	cbp	before you in-ns
19:00	noonian	JavaIsAwful: aleph is probably what you want: https://github.com/ztellman/aleph/wiki/UDP
19:01	cbp	or.. load-file
19:01	amalloy	yedi_: in-ns doesn't load any code, it just goes into a namespace (creating it empty if it isn't already loaded)
19:01	JavaIsAwful	noonian: ooh, this actually looks pretty good
19:01	amalloy	require is for loading namespaces from disk
19:02	JavaIsAwful	wait, is that the entire documentation for UDP? lol
19:02	cbp	JavaIsAwful: read the source! :-P
19:02	JavaIsAwful	cbp: lul
19:03	JavaIsAwful	there's this too: http://ideolalia.com/aleph/aleph.udp-api.html
19:03	noonian	it looks like it just delegates to netty
19:03	yedi_	cbp amalloy: many thanks
19:04	JavaIsAwful	wait, does using two names like that highlight it for both of them?
19:04	JavaIsAwful	in irc
19:07	JavaIsAwful	back in 10, about to cook up some chickens
19:11	yedi_	i want to use my library in another project, what do I have to do to make my library lein friendly?
19:11	yedi_	is there a guide i could look at?
19:11	justin_smith	yedi_: you probably want to put it on clojars
19:11	technomancy	yedi_: try `lein help tutorial`
19:12	yedi_	sweet, will check it out
19:21	amalloy	JavaIsAwful: it depends on the recipients' clients, of course - highlighting isn't a part of the irc protocol. but just about every client takes notice when your username appears anywhere in any message
19:29	JavaIsAwful	I'm baaack
19:29	JavaIsAwful	amalloy: I knew it wasn't part of the IRC protocol, but there seem to be common conventions
19:30	JavaIsAwful	I always thought it looked at the start or end of a message for your name, but I guess it really is just looking for your name anywhere in the message
19:31	justin_smith	it's 100% up to the client
19:32	JavaIsAwful	justin_smith: I know, but there are some pretty standard things that clients do
19:37	JavaIsAwful	so I left out a dependency in my project.clj
19:37	JavaIsAwful	and the error message I got was a ClassNotFound exception for my project's core class
19:37	JavaIsAwful	how does that make any sense?
19:38	chare	ok we have two projects that need solved
19:38	chare	(1) make clojure framework that beats out ruby on rails
19:38	amalloy	you were unable to load your project's class, because loading it depended on loading some other stuff. it should be in the stacktrace, probably as a Caused By
19:38	justin_smith	ns declaration fails because dep is missing so that class does not exist
19:38	chare	(2) why is there no tail call optimization in JVM? writing clojure code without recursion is really annoying.
19:39	JavaIsAwful	(recur)
19:39	JavaIsAwful	chare
19:39	chare	recur is really annoying to use
19:39	JavaIsAwful	welp, that's how you do TCO
19:40	chare	why didn't tail call optimization ever get added to jvm
19:40	JavaIsAwful	because it's java
19:40	rasputnik	chare: pay Larry Ellison, he'll hook you up
19:40	JavaIsAwful	java's icky
19:42	chare	and what happens if you need to tail call a totally different function
19:42	chare	then you can't use looping
19:42	beamso	trampoline
19:43	technomancy	if lack of TCO is the biggest problem in your life you've got it pretty good
19:43	beamso	http://bugs.java.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=6804517
19:43	beamso	scheduled for jdk9
19:45	chare	omg thats going to take forever, 8 just got released
19:45	seangrove	Can't tell if that's serious or not
19:46	JavaIsAwful	maybe when I implement mini-java in my compiler class next semester, I'll add TCO
19:46	JavaIsAwful	/s
19:47	justin_smith	JavaIsAwful: I'll one up you by making a primitive, crude version of tail call which I will name the bootycall
19:48	JavaIsAwful	lol
20:01	amalloy	JavaIsAwful: if you do implement a compiler at all, adding tco is really easy. it's only hard for java because of other decisions that have since been made that depend on not having tco
20:01	JavaIsAwful	amalloy: hmm, well maybe that's what I'll do then
20:02	JavaIsAwful	from what I've heard about past years, the semester-long project is to implement a certain subset of java, plus one new thing
20:03	chare	amalloy: you suggesting we switch to racket/scheme for a clean start?
20:05	arrdem	JavaIsAwful: ohai bro
20:08	brehaut	apropos: http://i.imgur.com/5X3VwOy.png
20:08	JavaIsAwful	arrdem: eyy
20:08	brehaut	(via @webyrd)
20:09	technomancy	brehaut: that expression... so much pain.
20:09	brehaut	which?
20:10	brehaut	(please excuse my uncaffenated friday brain)
20:10	cbp	its thursday
20:10	technomancy	the pic you linked to
20:10	brehaut	not in new zealand
20:10	cbp	oh i guess
20:10	brehaut	cbp: living in the future isnt all its cracked up to be
20:11	brehaut	technomancy: oh, yes indeed
20:13	JavaIsAwful	brehaut: what's today's winning lottery number?!
20:13	JavaIsAwful	brehaut: that's yesterday for you, I guess
20:16	amalloy	aussies have the future knowledge to win the lottery, but not the inclination. the prize is always a dropbear
20:18	SegFaultAX	brehaut: Was that a plea for generalized TCO or only direct recursion?
20:19	brehaut	SegFaultAX: i assume that with a picture of Steele, its generalized TCO?
20:20	brehaut	you have as much context as i do though
20:21	SegFaultAX	Maybe. Even if Java only supported self recursive tail calls, that'd be a huge step up.
20:22	hiredman	http://openjdk.java.net/projects/mlvm/subprojects.html
20:23	hiredman	the oracle bug database says the tco bug is targeted at version 9
20:25	hiredman	the continuation bug says the same thing though
20:25	arrdem	continuations in Java....
20:25	arrdem	okay.
20:25	amalloy	yeah, i assume 9 isn't getting any of this stuff. 9 is just the current "sounds cool" bin
20:25	arrdem	sounds about right to me
20:25	SegFaultAX	That would be awesome, even if it was only at the bytecode level. Native call/cc
20:26	arrdem	I think they'd just add an interproc GOTO first and let library / lang authors fudge it from there...
20:26	arrdem	were such a thing to ever happen.
20:26	JavaIsAwful	lol, aleph's documentation is pretty top-tier
20:26	JavaIsAwful	it linked to this page https://github.com/ztellman/lamina/wiki/Result-Channels
20:27	SegFaultAX	JavaIsAwful: I'm sure he'd love to have your help!
20:27	JavaIsAwful	SegFaultAX: if only I had the time :)
20:27	JavaIsAwful	or understood how his libraries worked
20:28	arrdem	one day I will finish cloutjure... then we will all get karma for PRs :P
20:29	beamso	if i have a protocol and types that implement that protocol, does the protocol create an interface and do the types implement the interface?
20:30	amalloy	JavaIsAwful: https://github.com/amalloy/hermes/blob/master/src/flatland/hermes/server.clj is a project i did at my last job, using aleph's websocket implementation. it has some other stuff that you don't care about, but https://github.com/amalloy/hermes/blob/master/src/flatland/hermes/server.clj#L132 is most of the webserver
20:31	beamso	yogthos: i'm cool with that, but (instance? selmer.node.INode selmer.node.TextNode) returns false for me.
20:31	yogthos	beamso: not sure why that's happening...
20:31	yogthos	this all lives here https://github.com/yogthos/Selmer/blob/master/src/selmer/node.clj
20:32	beamso	maybe that means i was getting INode instances whereas everyone else is getting TextNode instances
20:32	amalloy	basically a function gets called whenever a client connects, and you get a lamina channel to talk to them over. enqueue data into the channel to write to the client, receive to read from them
20:32	yogthos	beamso: you should always get either a FunctionNode or a TextNode instance
20:33	amalloy	beamso: protocol implementations don't necessarily implement any interface
20:33	amalloy	they satisfy a protocol, and sometimes that's done by implementing an interface, but it's not required
20:34	JavaIsAwful	thank you amalloy, that's probably the most helpful thing anybody could have said :)
20:34	yogthos	indeed :)
20:34	beamso	amalloy: so if i've typehinted a parameter to a function call, it could go wrong?
20:34	amalloy	don't typehint protocol functions. there's no reason
20:35	amalloy	i'm looking at you too, yogthos - what is the deal with the ^String in that code you pasted?
20:35	yogthos	amalloy: seemed like a good idea at the time :P
20:35	amalloy	beamso: in the selmer example, it looks like those types do implement the interface
20:35	amalloy	but (instance some-class other-class) is never true
20:36	amalloy	instance? wants an object and a class, not two classes
20:36	amalloy	(yes, yes, (instance? Class other-class) works specifically for java.lang.Class, but that's not the point)
20:38	beamso	would there be something with reloading a repl that could break that instance? call?
20:42	amalloy	yes. i intended to say as much myself, but then i got sidetracked
20:42	amalloy	(this assumes you mean a sensible instance? call, and not one comparing two classes)
20:43	amalloy	if you (def n (TextNode.)) (require :reload 'selmer.whatever) (def m (TextNode.)), now m and n are of different classes
20:43	beamso	yeah, i worked out that using the instance and the class worked, so my apologies to both yourself and yogthos on getting that wrong.
20:43	yogthos	no worries
20:43	beamso	oh, that would explain why i was only getting the error on repl reload.
20:48	SegFaultAX	Oh the fun of redefining vars at the REPL.
20:55	JavaIsAwful	amalloy: in your hermes project, did you do any client side stuff?
20:55	JavaIsAwful	or just server-side?
20:56	JavaIsAwful	amalloy: oh, I see from your readme that there is a client
20:56	JavaIsAwful	but it appears to be all js
20:57	JavaIsAwful	I'm sure I'll figure it out in clojure
21:08	JavaIsAwful	amalloy: y u no follow 80 character law?
21:09	hlship	Doing some interesting work combining Ring and core.async right now. I'll be able to make it public in a bit.
21:09	JavaIsAwful	I don't want to make my editor wider to read your code :(
21:17	brehaut	JavaIsAwful: i believe you mean the 1980s character law
21:30	akhudek	what would prevent fold from parallelizing?
21:30	JavaIsAwful	isn't there a parallelized fold in the reducers library?
21:31	akhudek	JavaIsAwful: yes, but one of my coworkers is finding that it's not using more than a single cpu in particular application: https://www.refheap.com/ca4a1f117b952a2d8e2193e3e
21:32	gfredericks	does it sound plausible that reply mis-parses "foo//"?
21:32	akhudek	everything looks right to me, and it certainly should give a speedup given the profiling I've done
21:32	gfredericks	does reply just use the builtin reader?
21:42	amalloy	gfredericks: i think it uses tools.reader
21:43	amalloy	akhudek: lazy sequences aren't random-access, so folding is not possible
21:43	hiredman	amalloy: parallel folding is not possible
21:44	amalloy	yes, sorry
21:45	akhudek	amalloy: thanks, I thought it might be something like that but wasn't sure if it batched non-random access sequences or something.
21:50	gfredericks	,clojure.core//
21:50	clojurebot	#<core$_SLASH_ clojure.core$_SLASH_@24764f>
21:50	gfredericks	https://github.com/trptcolin/reply/issues/136
21:54	seangrove	Oh man, love this https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=505521#c4
22:17	yedi	technomancy: wow.. that was incredibly simple. lein is quite tight
22:17	technomancy	thanks
22:19	JavaIsAwful	so what are the idomatic ways of handling byte streams in clojure?
22:20	JavaIsAwful	I need to create and read datagram packets at the raw bytes level
22:20	JavaIsAwful	should I just be using ByteBuffer or whatever it's called?
22:24	technomancy	copying into bytearrayoutputstream is the normal way I think
22:26	malyn	You may also want to look at https://github.com/ztellman/byte-streams ; Aleph and Lamina have some built in byte stream support if you are using those (by way of ztellman's gloss).
22:27	hiredman	JavaIsAwful: it really depends on whatever the library you are using uses
22:28	JavaIsAwful	I've decided to just use java.net.DatagramSocket
22:28	hiredman	yeah, so that uses byte arrays
22:28	JavaIsAwful	I'm trying to do things like put a short, followed by a string, into a byte array
22:29	hiredman	JavaIsAwful: ah, well wrapping the byte array with a bytebuffer can make that easier
22:29	hiredman	(ByteBuffer/wrap ...)
22:30	gfredericks	lol I did `lein help tutorial` and the first thing it did was start copying dependencies
22:30	JavaIsAwful	why is ByteBuffer abstract?
22:30	JavaIsAwful	that doesn't make sense to me
22:30	shriphani	hi. how do I make lein use the pom.xml that I have in my java source directory ? I can build a jar with maven but lein can't seem to compile it
22:30	malyn	JavaIsAwful: Maybe take a look at gloss then? It gives you a DSL for encoding/decoding byte arrays. https://github.com/ztellman/gloss/wiki/Introduction
22:30	hiredman	JavaIsAwful: because there are different kinds, heap and direct(native?)
22:31	JavaIsAwful	the javadoc only lists MappedByteBuffer as a subclass
22:31	JavaIsAwful	which is also abstract
22:32	JavaIsAwful	is that just because the others aren't in java.nio?
22:32	hiredman	,(class (java.nio.ByteBuffer/allocate 1))
22:32	clojurebot	java.nio.HeapByteBuffer
22:32	hiredman	maybe they aren't public
22:32	hiredman	doesn't matter
22:33	hiredman	wrap is all you'll need
22:34	yedi	so here, I'm opening a file that's in the libraries folder/repo -- https://github.com/yedi/rhyme-finder/blob/master/src/clj/rhyme_finder/core.clj#L15
22:34	yedi	but when I add that repo as a dependency in a different project, I get this error: Exception in thread "main" java.io.FileNotFoundException: cmudict.txt (No such file or directory), compiling:(core.clj:15:34)
22:35	JavaIsAwful	okay, I think I get it now
22:35	yedi	if I add the cmudict file to the new project, the lib works. but how can i fix rhyme-finder so that it opens/looks for the file from within its own jar
22:35	hiredman	yedi: you need to put the file in resources/ and load it from the class path using clojure.java.io/resource
22:35	JavaIsAwful	If I do .putShort, it should automatically cast to short, right?
22:36	JavaIsAwful	yeah, it does
22:36	hiredman	it depends on the type, more complicated conversions won't happen automatically
22:36	hiredman	,(byte \c)
22:36	clojurebot	99
22:36	hiredman	clojurebot: jerk
22:36	clojurebot	you cut me deep, man.
22:37	gfredericks	(defn -main [] (def the-server (start-server)))
22:37	hiredman	gfredericks: :(
22:37	gfredericks	kinda useful though...
22:37	hiredman	(def the-server) (defn -main [] (alter-var-root #'the-server (constantly (start-server))))
22:37	gfredericks	compared to that repetitive option
22:37	hiredman	don't put defs inside things
22:38	gfredericks	I know I just thought this was an interesting use case, since I don't know of concrete downsides and the alternative is repetitive
22:40	gfredericks	,(def x (def y (def z (def w 'def))))
22:40	clojurebot	#'sandbox/x
22:40	gfredericks	,x
22:40	clojurebot	#'sandbox/y
22:40	gfredericks	,y
22:40	clojurebot	#'sandbox/z
22:40	gfredericks	,z
22:40	clojurebot	#'sandbox/w
22:40	gfredericks	,w
22:40	clojurebot	def
22:40	gfredericks	well that was exciting
22:41	JavaIsAwful	I think I just got a small stroke from looking at that
22:41	hiredman	gfredericks: the issue is def causes a var to get interned during compilation, but putting the def inside a function means it won't get a value until the function is run
22:42	cminus	JavaIsAwful: You'll have to run through unchecked-short and friends to use bytebuffer
22:42	JavaIsAwful	(doc unchecked-short)
22:42	gfredericks	hiredman: sure, but again for this particular use case I can't imagine that backfiring
22:42	clojurebot	"([x]); Coerce to short. Subject to rounding or truncation."
22:42	JavaIsAwful	cminus: even if I know the values are valid shorts?
22:43	hiredman	gfredericks: just because it works doesn't mean it is good
22:43	gfredericks	hiredman: yeah it's ethically indefensible
22:45	ArchPy	So is Clojure just a trendy language?
22:45	gfredericks	hiredman: come to think of it, your "won't get a value until the function is run" point applies to the alter-var-root alternative just as much
22:45	hiredman	gfredericks: no, the var has a value in that case, nil
22:45	gfredericks	,(def hiredman)
22:45	clojurebot	#'sandbox/hiredman
22:45	gfredericks	,hiredman
22:45	clojurebot	#<Unbound Unbound: #'sandbox/hiredman>
22:45	cminus	JavaIsAwful: I ended up doing it that way. Reading and writing to a serial port.
22:45	hiredman	well damn
22:46	hiredman	anyway, at least it reads as getting no value
22:47	hiredman	instead of (def foo ...) which reads like foo should have a value
22:47	SegFaultAX	ArchPy: It's trending right now, yes, but that shouldn't suggest it isn't also being used in industry.
22:47	gfredericks	fair enough
22:48	shriphani	has anyone had success with large java codebases and lein ?
22:49	hiredman	the larger the code base the more likely it is that it is taking advantage of some feature of a java build system which lein doesn't expose or have
22:49	ArchPy	SegFaultAX: How is it being used?
22:50	JavaIsAwful	is there a reader syntax for shorts?
22:50	shriphani	hiredman, I can compile with mvn install
22:50	shriphani	the java codebase i.e.
22:50	shriphani	I am not sure how to make lein use mvn install
22:51	SegFaultAX	ArchPy: In many of the same places that you might expect Java, Scala, Python, or Ruby for example.
22:51	hiredman	shriphani: why bother?
22:51	shriphani	hiredman, because I want to build.....
22:51	shriphani	so here's my situation
22:52	ArchPy	SegFaultAX: Do you prefer Clojure over Python?
22:52	shriphani	one of the components of said java codebase I want to extend with clojure and use it from the java app
22:52	JavaIsAwful	ArchPy: as someone who started programming on Python, and loves it to bits, I personally like clojure more now
22:53	shriphani	because I have a lot of code written in clojure and porting to java is going to be a big waste of my time.
22:53	hiredman	shriphani: since the project already builds using maven, perhaps the clojure maven plugin would be a better bet
22:53	SegFaultAX	ArchPy: By a large margin, yes.
22:53	seangrove	Hey guys, I just implemented a semi-hacky drag-and-drop bit of code! For the browser! I don't think anyone had done it before, because if they had, I can't see why it wouldn't be built into the browser properly
22:53	shriphani	oh I didn't know such a thing existed
22:53	hiredman	shriphani: depending on what the clojure code does, you may just be able to include it as a resource on the maven build
22:54	shriphani	hiredman, it basically extends a java class.
22:54	hiredman	no "build" of it required
22:54	hiredman	shriphani: in what way, gen-class?
22:54	shriphani	I am using :gen-class to do it and override a method
22:54	shriphani	yes
22:54	hiredman	shriphani: ah, yeah, you'll want the maven plugin
22:55	hiredman	I am not sure what the state of the maven plugin is, before lein existed it was what people used
22:56	beamso	i think it's still being used
22:56	beamso	the clojure.java.jdbc project using the clojure-maven-plugin
22:56	beamso	*uses
22:56	shriphani	hiredman, would that essentially mean continuing to use the java project ?
22:56	shriphani	so I wanted to somehow let clojure take control of the situation
22:56	shriphani	and say have my main class invoke its main
22:57	shriphani	it = java
22:57	hiredman	shriphani: then make a clojure lein project that depends on your maven project as a library
22:57	shriphani	hiredman, so the class I am extending needs to be seen by another component
22:58	JavaIsAwful	just took another look at Gloss frames
22:58	JavaIsAwful	and realized just how beautiful they are
22:58	JavaIsAwful	exactly what I need
22:58	shriphani	and when I tried using a jar I built and a localrepo, then I could call the java project's main but it couldn't see my new class
22:58	hiredman	that isn't going to work with lein anyway, lein doesn't compile java and clojure together somehow, it compiles java using javac, then compiles clojure
22:58	shriphani	ok so I don't have an alternative I gues
22:58	yedi	ty hiredman, that did the trick
22:59	hiredman	shriphani: most likely because you didn't aot compile
22:59	shriphani	hiredman, I've got :aot :all in my project.clj
22:59	shriphani	and I did lein uberjar
23:01	shriphani	but yeah I just used the compiled jars from that project
23:01	shriphani	but if I could somehow make my extended class visible, that would be like problem solved essentially
23:01	ArchPy	SegFaultAX: Can you speak to the advantages of Clojure over python?
23:02	yedi	seangrove: can i hear more about the drag n drop doowicky
23:03	shriphani	ArchPy, you have all of java.
23:03	shriphani	there is no real python alternative to stuff like stanford-corenlp
23:03	ArchPy	shriphani: That seems like a distinct advantage of Python, no java. :p
23:05	shriphani	hiredman, although is it possible?
23:06	shriphani	to somehow make my extended class visible to classes in that jar I already have
23:06	seangrove	yedi: Just making a generic-ish draggable Om component
23:07	yedi	got code anywhere?
23:08	seangrove	yedi: Just started in on it, but here are some draggable circles https://www.refheap.com/62598
23:08	SegFaultAX	ArchPy: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Are-We-There-Yet-Rich-Hickey
23:08	JavaIsAwful	ArchPy: check out clojure-py. basically take clojure, and replace java with python, and you have clojure-py
23:08	JavaIsAwful	though it's not as developed as vanilla clojure
23:09	Frozenlock	seangrove: Ahhhh so much Om everywhere! :p
23:09	seangrove	Frozenlock: ?
23:10	Frozenlock	Sorry, Om always scares me :p
23:10	seangrove	Hrm, alright...
23:11	Frozenlock	seangrove: This might interest you: If you use the html Draggable tag with https://github.com/alandipert/storage-atom, you can have some pretty nice cross tabs/windows drag n drop.
23:12	JavaIsAwful	do gloss's frames order the bytes the same way they're ordered in the frame map you give it?
23:12	seangrove	Yeah, that's a pretty cool library
23:12	ArchPy	SegFaultAX: I will check that out
23:13	Frozenlock	seangrove: give it a try http://hvac.io. Go in the controllers tab. Duplicate your browser window and drag n drop between them. Much fun! :-D
23:14	ArchPy	JavaIsAwful: checking that out. thank you.
23:14	seangrove	Frozenlock: Wow, nice!
23:14	JavaIsAwful	ArchPy: just be careful, there are a few bits of syntax that are different
23:15	JavaIsAwful	ArchPy: mainly with things that interact with the underlying language
23:15	Frozenlock	seangrove: The app uses Reagent (alternative to Om) to render stuff from some atoms. The atoms are kept in sync between windows by using the storage-atom.
23:18	verma	Frozenlock, pretty cool!
23:18	seangrove	Frozenlock: I agree, pretty cool
23:19	Frozenlock	Thanks :)
23:20	Frozenlock	The advantage over the vanilla html DnD is that you can access complex EDN --while-- you are dragging.
23:20	Frozenlock	This is what enables the color change.
23:29	Frozenlock	Anyhow... now I want an undo library for react.js
23:29	Frozenlock	Any volunteer to implement Gundo/undo-tree? :-p
23:36	amalloy	JavaIsAwful: yes, frames are decoded in the same order as the input map
23:36	amalloy	and because maps are not guaranteed to have any particular order, gloss provides an ordered-map construct of some kind; i forget where it is
23:36	JavaIsAwful	amalloy: ah, I saw something like that
23:36	JavaIsAwful	figured that's why it was there
23:43	JavaIsAwful	I see that you can put a fixed value in for one of the frame fields
23:43	JavaIsAwful	e.g. I could do this (compile-frame {:a 2})
23:43	JavaIsAwful	but not strings it seems
23:43	JavaIsAwful	is there a workaround?
23:44	JavaIsAwful	wait, maybe I'm misunderstanding what's giving me an error
23:46	JavaIsAwful	now I see, I was just putting keyvals in incorrectly
23:46	JavaIsAwful	I thought I had to group them like [key val] [key val]