2014-03-14
| 00:02 | dnolen_ | noprompt: hrm interesting, will have to look at that more closely later |
| 00:03 | noprompt | dnolen_: cool. tl;dr it creates an object that doubles as a literal and a function which returns a literal that doubles and a function... |
| 00:04 | noprompt | *as function |
| 00:18 | seangrove | $seen bbloom |
| 00:18 | lazybot | bbloom was last seen quitting 3 hours and 51 minutes ago. |
| 00:23 | arrdem | anyone worked with influxdb and care to comemnt on it? |
| 00:30 | noprompt | there *another* new db? |
| 00:33 | arrdem | noprompt: this one is some weird fake nosql monster intended for time series logging |
| 00:33 | arrdem | noprompt: implemented in Go apparently.. |
| 00:34 | chare | Go sucks shit |
| 00:34 | chare | why does anyone use it? |
| 00:34 | jaimef | they dislike Oracle? |
| 00:34 | technomancy | because rob pike |
| 00:35 | seangrove | Damnit, I keep adding chare to my ignore list, but erc doesn't seem to persist it across restarts |
| 00:35 | chare | seangrove why you hate me bro? |
| 00:35 | arrdem | seangrove: goddamnit neither is mine... |
| 00:35 | seangrove | Time to open up init.el |
| 00:35 | chare | why does everyone hate me? |
| 00:36 | arrdem | chare: because you're a waste of valuable bandwidth and more valuable brain cells |
| 00:38 | arrdem | that's better... |
| 00:59 | chare | do you guys agree that Clojure > Go ? |
| 01:00 | jaimef | depends on what you want to do |
| 01:00 | TEttinger | gozala: nice work on https://github.com/Gozala/wisp |
| 01:00 | jaimef | and if you need java |
| 01:01 | jaimef | chare: I would love if I could do this in clojure with threads and perform as well on 1k machines. https://github.com/ober/labrat/blob/master/collectors/Go-lang/collector.go |
| 01:01 | chare | jaimef: why does Clojure not work for that+? |
| 01:02 | jaimef | cost of threads > goroutines |
| 01:02 | chare | doesn't clojure have lightweight threads or something? |
| 01:02 | sid__ | Hi, can anyone suggest a way to set true in seq (false false false false) if I have a seq of index positions, eg: for (2 3) I need to get a (false false true true) |
| 01:02 | jaimef | chare probably. I'm just not that good enough in clojure yet to acheive the same. |
| 01:03 | arrdem | jaimef: please don't feed chare. |
| 01:04 | arrdem | jaimef: he's one of an elite group: those who managed to get themselves banned from #clojure |
| 01:04 | amalloy | wow, i didn't know anyone used amalloy-utils, iwilcox |
| 01:04 | sid__ | Hi, can anyone suggest a way to set true in seq (false false false false) if I have a seq of index positions, eg: for (2 3) I need to get a (false false true true)? |
| 01:04 | jaimef | arrdem: thanks :P |
| 01:04 | amalloy | i haven't used it for years; when geni hired me, i merged the parts of it i still liked into flatland/useful |
| 01:04 | arrdem | jaimef: /ignore is a glorious thing :D |
| 01:04 | jaimef | amen |
| 01:04 | sid__ | or for (0 1 2) -> (true true true false) |
| 01:05 | jaimef | .oO(trollBot to alert new folks ) |
| 01:05 | chare | I'm not a troll |
| 01:05 | dsrx | off-topic: what's the name of the big block of comments at the top of an emacs mode file, with documentation + copyright info and all that |
| 01:05 | dsrx | ahh the commentary |
| 01:05 | amalloy | sid__: i'm sure someone will get to your question soon. in the meantime, please be patient: irc is not an instant-help hotline |
| 01:05 | iwilcox | amalloy: I tried to hack something similar together myself, questioned the wisdom/approach/awkwardness of my crappy n00b code, and googled the typical keywords I thought one might use to do it. Seeing you do it was kind of validating. :) |
| 01:06 | iwilcox | amalloy: But I'll be taking a closer look at -utils as a result :D |
| 01:06 | amalloy | iwilcox: yeah, and indeed that's one of the functions i liked enough to carry over. it's now flatland.useful.map/keyed |
| 01:06 | muhoo_ | so many people have libraries of homegrown utiities not in the language. |
| 01:07 | sid__ | amalloy, I did it by setting values in an array for the index and then converting it to seq, is there a better way? |
| 01:08 | amalloy | &((fn replace-indexed [x replace? coll] (map-indexed (fn [i v] (if (replace? i) x v)) coll)) true #{0 1 2} [false false false false]) |
| 01:08 | lazybot | ⇒ (true true true false) |
| 01:10 | amalloy | or if your input were a vector, you could just (reduce #(assoc % %2 x) v indices) |
| 01:12 | jaimef | nrepl is pretty nice on stack traces |
| 01:22 | sid__ | amalloy, there's a difference of 0.10196800000000006 msecs in what I was doing and what you did |
| 01:22 | amalloy | what. who cares |
| 01:23 | amalloy | write code that looks good and reads well |
| 01:23 | arrdem | (inc amalloy) |
| 01:23 | lazybot | ⇒ 90 |
| 01:23 | sid__ | but I see you used sets, converting from seq to sets will take some time itself |
| 01:23 | sid__ | thanks anyways |
| 01:24 | zspencer | (inc amalloy) |
| 01:24 | lazybot | ⇒ 91 |
| 01:24 | sid__ | (inc lazybot) |
| 01:24 | lazybot | ⇒ 22 |
| 01:24 | TEttinger | is that a... tenth of a millisecond difference? |
| 01:24 | TEttinger | is that even measurable? |
| 01:25 | zspencer | (inc inc) |
| 01:25 | lazybot | ⇒ 7 |
| 01:25 | arrdem | TEttinger: the JIT will fix that give a couple thousand passes.. |
| 01:25 | sid__ | lol, I just trying to find out the difference |
| 01:25 | sid__ | not that I care about it |
| 01:25 | sid__ | I was* |
| 01:25 | TEttinger | (dec seangrove's dare) |
| 01:25 | lazybot | ⇒ -1 |
| 01:25 | trap_exit | is there an easy way to check if (into {} is lazy or not lazy ) ? |
| 01:26 | seangrove | TEttinger: I go by the beat of different drum |
| 01:26 | amalloy | TEttinger: don't forget the 6e-20s difference at the bottom there |
| 01:26 | arrdem | ,(type (into {} [[:a :b] [:b :c] [:d :e]])) |
| 01:26 | clojurebot | clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap |
| 01:26 | amalloy | trap_exit: into is never lazy |
| 01:26 | amalloy | maps are also never lazy |
| 01:26 | trap_exit | well, maps are not lazy, but map is lazy |
| 01:27 | trap_exit | I had (into {} (map ... ... )) in mind |
| 01:27 | TEttinger | trap_exit, you can be sure that it ISN'T lazy if you use mapv in place of map |
| 01:27 | trap_exit | amalloy Tettinger: interesting, thanks! |
| 01:27 | trap_exit | http://clojure.github.io/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/mapv is new to me |
| 01:28 | amalloy | whaaaat. why would you mapv here |
| 01:29 | trap_exit | amalloy ... Tettinger |
| 01:29 | seangrove | amalloy: I make sure it's not lazy, before feeding it to into |
| 01:29 | trap_exit | round 1, fight! |
| 01:29 | TEttinger | I personally use it when I don't know how things would act with laziness |
| 01:29 | amalloy | seangrove: ??????? |
| 01:29 | seangrove | amalloy: Sorry, sorry, just joking |
| 01:29 | amalloy | nothing makes sense anymore, i resign |
| 01:29 | trap_exit | TEttinger wins |
| 01:29 | amalloy | TEttinger: seriously though, that's a terrible reason to use mapv |
| 01:29 | trap_exit | round 2 |
| 01:29 | trap_exit | start! |
| 01:29 | TEttinger | haha ignorance takes the day! |
| 01:29 | arrdem | (inc ignorance) |
| 01:29 | lazybot | ⇒ 1 |
| 01:29 | TEttinger | :-( |
| 01:30 | amalloy | use it when you *know* what you need; map is the right default. if you don't know which you need, figure it out! better to know things than paper over them |
| 01:31 | trap_exit | man |
| 01:31 | trap_exit | clojure battles not nearly as fun as mortal kombat or rap battles |
| 01:31 | TEttinger | I don't know everything amalloy, and I really don't have enough working memory to track the laziness behavior of every function without looking it up... |
| 01:32 | amalloy | you don't need to know about every function, really. it's mostly just the data structures |
| 01:32 | trap_exit | I think it's basically: if it returns a list, and it's not doall, it's lazy |
| 01:32 | amalloy | not far off, trap_exit |
| 01:36 | TEttinger | one of the few things that I really dislike about clojure's standard lib is the presence of these "it's a trap" fns. flatten and now mapv? It would be nice if the docstring just said "no don't" next to them so I don't need to ask on IRC everytime |
| 01:37 | zspencer | or it could raise an AckbarException |
| 01:37 | TEttinger | yeah it could be worse |
| 01:39 | arrdem | M-x package-install RET amalloy-this RET |
| 01:39 | TEttinger | (doc flatten) ; [bad idea intensifies] |
| 01:39 | clojurebot | "([x]); Takes any nested combination of sequential things (lists, vectors, etc.) and returns their contents as a single, flat sequence. (flatten nil) returns an empty sequence." |
| 01:39 | amalloy | TEttinger: mapv's not a trap |
| 01:39 | arrdem | TEttinger: br0 no |
| 01:39 | arrdem | TEttinger: I used flatten once but did not inhale... |
| 01:39 | amalloy | it's just used in a lot of places where it's not needed, usually for performance gains that just don't matter or because of weird ideas about laziness |
| 01:39 | trap_exit | there's a standard notation of ! = mutation |
| 01:40 | trap_exit | I'd like something where function name had weird chard to indicate whether it's lazy |
| 01:40 | amalloy | it's a perfectly good function, just not one you should default to |
| 01:40 | TEttinger | that's not a bad idea trap_exit |
| 01:40 | arrdem | flatten? |
| 01:40 | arrdem | ~flatten |
| 01:40 | trap_exit | (inc TEttinger) ;; great minds think alike |
| 01:40 | lazybot | ⇒ 15 |
| 01:40 | TEttinger | laziness is a really important of clojure, like the mutation behavior |
| 01:40 | amalloy | unlike flatten, which is truly a trap |
| 01:40 | trap_exit | anyone else think it's a good idea? :-) |
| 01:41 | TEttinger | well it would need to be in some alternate core.clj |
| 01:41 | TEttinger | not like people don't do that, ztellman did it for primitive-math |
| 01:42 | TEttinger | personally I think it would be a better idea if you were starting over, and a bad idea if you weren't |
| 01:42 | TEttinger | but! |
| 01:44 | TEttinger | something similar could be handy for learning clojure, I am wondering about a REPL that automatically catches some special exception thrown by all evaled calls in a different core.clj that informs you of the behavior of all fns used |
| 01:45 | TEttinger | so you enter in this alternate repl, (map inc [1 2 3]), and it throws an exception and catches it for map's docs and inc's docs, and extra info that isn't in the docstring |
| 01:45 | TEttinger | (and prints that info) |
| 01:45 | TEttinger | something like a doc on a macroexpand I guess? |
| 01:50 | noprompt | sometimes it's difficult to put what something does in to works. |
| 01:50 | noprompt | *words |
| 01:51 | trap_exit | what consulting rates do people command for cljs + clojure web dev ? |
| 01:51 | noprompt | probably whatever they feel they're worth. :-P |
| 01:52 | zspencer | trap_exit: depends on how competent I am. |
| 01:52 | noprompt | there's a pattern here. |
| 01:52 | trap_exit | is $300/hour too high? |
| 01:52 | noprompt | for one person? |
| 01:52 | zspencer | If I can deliver working software quickly and effectiely I'll charge up to $150/hr |
| 01:52 | trap_exit | yeah |
| 01:53 | zspencer | ATM, I would probably only chage like $75 for clojure |
| 01:53 | noprompt | zspencer: don't i work w/ you? |
| 01:53 | trap_exit | anyone here successfully charge $300/hour ? |
| 01:53 | noprompt | :-P |
| 01:54 | scottj | trap_exit: those rates are for specialized knowledge (not general programming) afaict |
| 01:54 | zspencer | Hourly rates (from my experience) top out at ~$200 unless you have incredibly specialized abilities. |
| 01:54 | zspencer | If you want to get higher you have to figure out how to charge for a solution instead of for time |
| 01:55 | zspencer | Which carries it's own risks |
| 01:55 | scottj | trap_exit: it doesn't hurt to find out where no is though. |
| 01:55 | SegFaultAX | I never charge by the hour. |
| 01:55 | noprompt | yeah, i'd say $300 is bananas |
| 01:55 | trap_exit | bananas is what people feed monkeys |
| 01:55 | trap_exit | so it's too low right? |
| 01:55 | SegFaultAX | I'm not a prostitute, so hourly makes no sense when I'm freelancing. |
| 01:55 | zspencer | bananas are a superfood, so it's too high |
| 01:56 | trap_exit | SegFaultAX: yeah, that's what I also feel about charging per hour |
| 01:56 | trap_exit | it feels very weird as an engineer |
| 01:56 | SegFaultAX | I mean really, what can you possibly do in an /hour/? |
| 01:56 | SegFaultAX | Can't even fully get into the flow. |
| 01:56 | zspencer | Earn $XXX |
| 01:56 | zspencer | ;) |
| 01:57 | SegFaultAX | I charge by the half-day or day. |
| 01:57 | zspencer | I tend to charge by the week at a certain % of capacity |
| 01:57 | zspencer | but now I work full time for a real company |
| 01:57 | zspencer | so that's weird |
| 01:57 | SegFaultAX | (Not to say that being a prostitute is bad, just that it's not a sensical model for software development) |
| 01:58 | noprompt | dnolen_: here's the macro helper code in context: https://github.com/noprompt/garden/blob/2.0.0/src/cljx/garden/selectors.cljx#L36-L56 |
| 01:58 | noprompt | dnolen_: feel free to comment on the commit if you have time. i'm done hacking on it today. |
| 02:00 | zspencer | nice |
| 02:02 | noprompt | i never do contract work because i'm too busy dicking nonsense. |
| 02:03 | insamniac | don't talk about the lady like that. |
| 02:18 | amalloy | what's the point of using git logs to prove your hours? they're easy to forge, and not terribly instructive anyway depending on your workflow. i'd rather commit things in logical chunks, eg by creating a patch series at the end of the day, than commit something every hour to prove i'm working |
| 02:19 | trap_exit | without using the fucktard <blink> tag, how do I show an animated "connecting" status symbol ? |
| 02:19 | trap_exit | something that tells the user "eh, something is fucked up, but this symbol is still animated, so you should feel comfort |
| 02:24 | akhudek | trap_exit: css animations unless you care about certain browsers |
| 02:27 | trap_exit | akhudek: http://www.andreaverlicchi.eu/css-3-only-spinning-loading-animation/#.UyKg-VFdUhw is impressive |
| 02:42 | sid__ | has anyone used cache in clojure? what cache would you suggest? |
| 02:49 | bob2 | sid__, what do you want to cache? |
| 02:50 | sm0ke | anyone using datomic over riak? |
| 02:51 | sm0ke | sid__: core.cache is "idiomatic" cache for clojure |
| 02:51 | sm0ke | https://github.com/clojure/core.cache |
| 02:56 | sid__ | has anyone used spyglass memcached? |
| 02:58 | sid__ | bob2, what do you mean by what do I want to cache? |
| 03:42 | mindbender1 | ,(name nil) |
| 03:42 | clojurebot | #<NullPointerException java.lang.NullPointerException> |
| 03:43 | mindbender1 | Is there a reason why name should throw on nil? |
| 03:45 | ddellacosta | mindbender1: what do you expect it to do? |
| 03:46 | mindbender1 | (if (or nil (string? x)) x (. ^clojure.lang.Named x (getName))) |
| 03:47 | mindbender1 | This has been troubling me for years! |
| 03:47 | mindbender1 | ddellacosta: ^^ what do you think? |
| 03:48 | ddellacosta | mindbender1: er, you want to get the string from a keyword? Why not just use name? |
| 03:49 | ddellacosta | why do you do (. ^clojure.lang.Named x (getName)) ? |
| 03:49 | mindbender1 | ,(clojure.repl/source name) |
| 03:49 | clojurebot | Source not found\n |
| 03:50 | qq_an_qq | no idea ,, ! |
| 03:50 | ddellacosta | ,(defn not-nil-name [x] (if-not (nil? x) (name x) x)) |
| 03:50 | clojurebot | #'sandbox/not-nil-name |
| 03:50 | mindbender1 | ddellacosta: that's the source for name I pasted (modified) |
| 03:50 | mpenet | #(some-> % name) |
| 03:50 | mpenet | ,(some-> nil name) |
| 03:50 | clojurebot | nil |
| 03:51 | ddellacosta | mpenet: much nicer than mine. ^ mindbender1 |
| 03:51 | ddellacosta | ,(some-> nil name) |
| 03:51 | clojurebot | nil |
| 03:51 | ddellacosta | ,(some-> :foo name) |
| 03:51 | clojurebot | "foo" |
| 03:51 | ddellacosta | ,(some-> "foo" name) |
| 03:51 | clojurebot | "foo" |
| 03:51 | ddellacosta | ^ mindbender1 doesn't that do what you need, quite simply? |
| 03:52 | mindbender1 | that will mean inviting some-> wherever I need name |
| 03:52 | mindbender1 | How computing wise is that? |
| 03:52 | ddellacosta | mindbender1: I'm not sure I understand your point |
| 03:53 | mindbender1 | The source should be modified |
| 03:53 | ddellacosta | mindbender1: which is to say, I don't understand it |
| 03:53 | ddellacosta | mindbender1: don't really agree, but I would take it to the dev list if you feel so strongly about it |
| 03:54 | mindbender1 | ddellacosta: that's what I'm looking to do |
| 03:54 | ddellacosta | using some-> or just making your own custom fn is not a big deal in the least |
| 03:54 | ddellacosta | ,(defn nname [x] (some-> x name)) |
| 03:54 | clojurebot | #'sandbox/nname |
| 03:54 | ddellacosta | (nname :foo) |
| 03:54 | ddellacosta | (nname nil) |
| 03:54 | ddellacosta | ,(nname :foo) |
| 03:54 | clojurebot | "foo" |
| 03:54 | ddellacosta | ,(nname nil) |
| 03:54 | clojurebot | nil |
| 03:55 | ddellacosta | mindbender1: but hey, go for it |
| 03:56 | mindbender1 | how do I make something like nname globally available |
| 03:58 | ddellacosta | mindbender1: maybe using this? https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj#L211 Dunno, never needed to do that |
| 04:00 | mindbender1 | *Forms* to prepend to *every form* -- namespace would be better. Thanks anyway |
| 04:01 | ddellacosta | mindbender1: good luck |
| 06:33 | schmir | #/join ethereum |
| 07:06 | BartAdv | is it possible to somehow obtain reference to the 'current' function? say I have add-watch handler that wants to 'remove' itself under certain circumstances |
| 07:06 | clgv | BartAdv: well use a defn ;) |
| 07:07 | BartAdv | but I'm creating such callback locally |
| 07:08 | clgv | BartAdv: you can name a local function (fn myname [x] ...) but you can only use it for recursive calls afaik |
| 07:11 | BartAdv | doh, silly me. remove-watch uses the key given when calling add-watch |
| 07:11 | BartAdv | so, problem was not there in first place, thanks anyway;) |
| 07:12 | clgv | BartAdv: a suicidal watch so to say? :P |
| 07:15 | BartAdv | yeah |
| 08:16 | gfredericks | ,((fn f [] f)) |
| 08:16 | clojurebot | #<sandbox$eval25$f__26 sandbox$eval25$f__26@eb38b5> |
| 08:18 | tomjack | :) |
| 08:23 | gfredericks | I'm really enjoying this `bg` macro: https://github.com/fredericksgary/repl-utils/blob/master/src/com/gfredericks/repl.clj#L98 |
| 08:25 | clgv | gfredericks: a future with runtime duration? |
| 08:27 | clgv | I did some progress reporting stuff which is almost as decoupled to be a separate library. but didn't know yet whether it is of general interest |
| 08:27 | gfredericks | clgv: runtime duration, alerts on completion/error, and puts results in vars instead of a derefable |
| 08:27 | clgv | ah k |
| 08:27 | gfredericks | when you eval 'bg14' it tells you how long that one has been running |
| 08:28 | clgv | ah just saw your code above. so the name of a fn is indead a ref to it |
| 08:29 | gfredericks | yep |
| 08:29 | gfredericks | only when you name it in that style |
| 08:29 | gfredericks | defn works slightly differently |
| 08:29 | clgv | yep |
| 08:29 | gfredericks | which is important when you're playing with dynamic programming stuff |
| 08:39 | tomjack | java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: let in this context |
| 08:39 | tomjack | hmmm |
| 08:42 | clgv | tomjack: interesting. but we can not help you without context info ;) |
| 08:42 | gfredericks | that's a logical possibility; let is just a macro you can not-refer |
| 08:43 | tomjack | I don't think you can help me |
| 08:43 | clgv | ,(resolve 'let) |
| 08:43 | clojurebot | #'clojure.core/let |
| 08:43 | tomjack | this was 9 jobs in to a 11 job hadoop flow |
| 08:43 | tomjack | where each job is the same |
| 08:44 | tomjack | my hypothesis is that starting a repl with a new version of the jar (probably during the 8th job) caused hadoop to get confused and load the wrong version |
| 08:44 | tomjack | I guess... |
| 08:44 | gfredericks | I don't think we can help you |
| 08:45 | clgv | starting a repl within a distributed hadoop computation with a different jar version sounds odd.. |
| 08:45 | tomjack | not within, concurrent with |
| 08:46 | tomjack | I just found the exception message funny, since I feel pretty sure I didn't not-refer let.. |
| 08:56 | shep-werk | Are there any core.async buffers that are disk-backed (and thus I could claim they are "unbounded")? |
| 08:58 | clgv | shep-werk: zach tellman has a lib for disk-backed queues. maybe you can combine it with core.async which allows you to specify the buffer of a channel |
| 09:01 | shep-werk | clgv: this look like the one you mean? https://github.com/Factual/durable-queue |
| 09:01 | tomjack | b |
| 09:03 | stompyj | Can someone PM me Rich Hickey's public email address? I have a friend who wants to get in touch with him regarding a speaking gig, but can't find his contact info anywhere |
| 09:03 | stompyj | If he doesn't have a public email addy, could someone tell me how one would go about getting in touch? |
| 09:05 | clgv | shep-werk: yes. you probably just have to implement the protocols for buffers from clojure.core.async.impl.protocols |
| 09:06 | shep-werk | clgv: cool, thanks. I actually have done that once already... I wanted a LIFO buffer instead of FIFO |
| 09:07 | shep-werk | it was pretty easy, so that was cool |
| 09:07 | gfredericks | stompyj: can't you find it from the mailing lists? |
| 09:07 | clgv | shep-werk: yeah, that's one of the reasons why I like protocols in clojure^^ |
| 09:08 | stompyj | gfredericks: you' think it'd be cool to just use that one? I kept hoping he'd have a public one, so he didn't think it was intrusive |
| 09:08 | shep-werk | clgv: downside here is that it is a durable queue... wonder what it would take to trick it into a stack :-) |
| 09:09 | clgv | shep-werk: oh, you want a stack here as well ... |
| 09:09 | shep-werk | clgv: i'm just playing around, so I don't /need/ anything :-D |
| 09:10 | clgv | shep-werk: to get a durable stack you'll probably have to implement it yourself analog to the durable_queue |
| 09:11 | shep-werk | another thing about my particular use case is that I'm not worried about the durability aspect, just the not-bounded-by-memory |
| 09:11 | shep-werk | but this is probably a great place for me to start exploring, thanks! |
| 09:11 | clgv | shep-werk: so dropping some of the things in the queue would be ok? |
| 09:12 | shep-werk | yeah |
| 09:12 | shep-werk | This is all predicated from http://www.reddit.com/r/dailyprogrammer/comments/1yzlde/022614_challenge_150_intermediate_reemvoweler_1/ |
| 09:12 | shep-werk | Which spun up some thinking about how I could use core.async with it |
| 09:13 | shep-werk | and a root thing that came up was |
| 09:13 | clgv | well arent there queues in core.async that just drop items when they are full? |
| 09:13 | mdrogalis | clgv: Yes. Sliding and dropping buffers. |
| 09:13 | shep-werk | I have a goroutine that takes 1 item and produces 3, and puts those 3 back into the original queue |
| 09:13 | shep-werk | (up to 3) |
| 09:13 | shep-werk | so, the # of things in the channel could get large |
| 09:14 | shep-werk | for that particular problem, I think there is a bound (that I haven't computed) if you do a DFS of the possibilities |
| 09:15 | shep-werk | if you were to do a BFS, then the bound would be much larger |
| 09:15 | shep-werk | then I started thinking about a filesystem / web crawler |
| 09:15 | shep-werk | which would make it hard to know the bounds beforehand |
| 09:15 | shep-werk | so you would probably fall back to at least one unbounded queue |
| 09:16 | shep-werk | wall-of-text over ;-) |
| 09:16 | clgv | shep-werk: DFS can be linear in tree depth when the options at each level can be enumerated |
| 09:17 | shep-werk | yup. So for the reddit problem, it would be something like (* 2 (+ (count vowels) (count consonants))) |
| 09:18 | clgv | *I meant the space requirement |
| 09:18 | shep-werk | And so it could have a known bound beforehand |
| 09:18 | shep-werk | And that requires the stack buffer instead |
| 09:19 | clgv | shep-werk: if you have information on the input size you can easily decide whether it fits in memory ;) |
| 09:19 | shep-werk | certainly. But then when I started thinking about a web or directory crawl, I realized I wouldn't know the tree depth or width |
| 09:20 | shep-werk | so a disk-backed queue would be fine for a BFS |
| 09:20 | shep-werk | and the durability would also be a benefit |
| 09:21 | shep-werk | but since I had also been thinking about a stack... |
| 09:21 | isaacbw | how do you usually handle abstraction with clojure? Would you have several implementations in different namespaces with the same set of functions, and do a require :as ? |
| 09:21 | isaacbw | depending on which one you want |
| 09:21 | clgv | BFS memory consumption can grow quite badly compared to an equivalent DFS |
| 09:22 | shep-werk | clgv: very much so :-) Sometimes you want to mix and match them - BFS for a few levels, then DFS to try and clear out your backlog |
| 09:23 | shep-werk | isaacbw: what kind of abstraction? My first answer would be "protocols", but it depends on what you are doing :-) |
| 09:23 | clgv | isaacbw: depends how you want to use them |
| 09:23 | isaacbw | shep-werk: like "interfaces" |
| 09:23 | isaacbw | I'll take a look at protocols |
| 09:24 | clgv | isaacbw: definitely protocols when you want something like interfaces |
| 09:25 | isaacbw | I'll give a concrete example. I eventually want to use HBase as my data store, but for now (local development) I just want to use MongoDB, but I want to have a common interface for interacting with my data store abstractly. E.g I want to replace my MongoDB implmentation with an HBase implementation without actually changing any of the code that calls the interface. Would protocols be the thing for that? |
| 09:26 | isaacbw | looks like it from what I can see |
| 09:28 | dnolen_ | isaacbw: protocols or multimethods both work, if you're talking to a database multimethods will probably suffice. |
| 09:28 | clgv | isaacbw: yeah, that's doable with protocols and deftype/defrecord (or even maps with :type metadata) |
| 09:29 | clgv | or what dnolen_ said ;) |
| 09:31 | felher | Why do different methods get selected when I write (.select #^javafx.scene.control.SelectionModel sm (int index)) instead of (.select sm (int index)). The first one selects the select(int) method, the second one the select(Object) method, though in both cases I pass them an (int index). |
| 09:32 | felher | Hello folks, btw :) |
| 09:32 | tony_ | greetings |
| 09:33 | tony_ | is this a good place for a very stuck newb to get some help? |
| 09:34 | BobSchack | Yep what is the problem? |
| 09:34 | tony_ | i'm trying to pass an expression into a macro as an argument |
| 09:35 | tony_ | gettihg various "Cannot be cast" errors when I try to evalulate that expression |
| 09:36 | BobSchack | do you have gitpaste / refheap of the macro and expression? |
| 09:36 | philandstuff | felher: it's not the best part of the interop functionality :/ see http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2722856/how-do-i-call-overloaded-java-methods-in-clojure for details |
| 09:36 | tony_ | i am not familioar with gitpaste or refheap |
| 09:37 | tony_ | those are the standard methods of sharing/showing code here? |
| 09:37 | felher | philandstuff: okay, thank you :) |
| 09:37 | BobSchack | yep https://www.refheap.com is the standard I believe |
| 09:37 | clgv | felher: in that case probably "sm" is known as a super class that only has the method with object? |
| 09:39 | tony_ | refheap hates my browser (midori) I'll fire up another |
| 09:41 | felher | clgv: maybe someway hidden, but acording to the api documentation ( http://docs.oracle.com/javafx/2/api/javafx/scene/control/MultipleSelectionModel.html ), the superclass is SingleSelectionModel, which has both method, and has only the superclass Object, which doesn't have a select method at all. :) |
| 09:41 | felher | *The superclass ist SelectionModel |
| 09:44 | isaacbw | so is there not a clojure-specific GSoC proposal template? |
| 09:46 | clgv | isaacbw: I dont know. if not at least one proposal was linked on the mailing list lately. so you can have a look how that was done |
| 09:46 | isaacbw | ah, thanks clgv |
| 09:56 | tony_ | sorry that took so long |
| 09:56 | tony_ | https://www.refheap.com/58362 |
| 10:01 | turbopape2 | Hi guys, I want to know something about STM and maps... |
| 10:01 | tony_ | sorry my example expression was wrong i fixed the paste |
| 10:02 | BobSchack | I have a meeting now but http://aphyr.com/posts/305-clojure-from-the-ground-up-macros and http://www.braveclojure.com/writing-macros/ are good starting points for learning macros |
| 10:02 | turbopape2 | is the transaction retried when a map is changed as a whole or only if a conflicting key/value has been altered ? |
| 10:02 | tony_ | ok - thanks Bob |
| 10:02 | turbopape2 | does the STM check nested structures or just the ref as a whole ? |
| 10:03 | opqdonut | the value inside the ref, i.e. the whole map |
| 10:03 | opqdonut | at least if you're using ref-set |
| 10:03 | opqdonut | but see also commute |
| 10:04 | opqdonut | e.g. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4999281/ref-set-vs-commute-vs-alter has an explanation |
| 10:09 | turbopape2 | ok, thanks opqdonut |
| 10:10 | tony_ | anyone else on newb duty? :) |
| 10:11 | tony_ | I don't get why x does not evaluate to true at https://www.refheap.com/58362 |
| 10:12 | turbopape2 | ok I already know this, but my question was, if thread 1 was assoc'ing key1 , and in the meanwhile someone else assoc'ed key 2.... will the transaction be retried ? |
| 10:12 | turbopape2 | I suspect yes, BTW, just wishing it was that easy :( |
| 10:12 | turbopape2 | oh I mean it is fairly easy, ALREADY ! |
| 10:13 | dnolen_ | turbopape2: assoc'ing two different keys is commutative so not necessarily |
| 10:14 | turbopape2 | ok, so if I use commute, when updating, it will not retry ? |
| 10:14 | john2x | tony_: don't wrap x in parens.. |
| 10:14 | john2x | tony_: (if x ...) |
| 10:15 | dnolen_ | turbopape2: yes |
| 10:15 | tony_ | omg! awesome! thanks john2x! |
| 10:15 | tony_ | somehow I spent several hours not figuring that out yesterday |
| 10:15 | isaacbw | is there a paredit command to kill a whole s-exp? I can't find one on the paredit cheat sheet |
| 10:16 | turbopape2 | ok cool dnolen _ :) |
| 10:16 | tomjack | isaacbw: no, kill-sexp |
| 10:16 | tomjack | built in |
| 10:17 | tomjack | C-M-k |
| 10:17 | isaacbw | oh, neato thanks |
| 10:28 | turbopape2 | oh yeah, with commute that makes sense. Thank you guys ! |
| 10:55 | sveri | hi, I have a problem that I meet relatively often, I have a list of maps ({:data "foo" :id "first"} {:data "bar" :id "another_id"}) and I have a expected_map like this {:first "foo" :another_id "bar"} and I want to check that each of the values of the expected_map happens to be exactly once in a map of the list of maps. Is there a general solution to this in clojure? or do I have to bruteforce it? |
| 10:56 | gfredericks | what migration library am I about to choose? ragtime? |
| 10:59 | clgv | sveri: well bruteforce is a hard word here since you only to search in linear time. `frequencies` might help you |
| 11:00 | clgv | sveri: ##(let [m {:a 1 :b 2}, ms [m {:a 2, :b 4}, m {:a 5 :b 9}] ((frequencies ms) m)) |
| 11:00 | clgv | ,(let [m {:a 1 :b 2}, ms [m {:a 2, :b 4}, m {:a 5 :b 9}] ((frequencies ms) m)) |
| 11:00 | clojurebot | #<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: )> |
| 11:01 | sveri | clgv: thank you, i gues i get the idea |
| 11:01 | clgv | ,,(let [m {:a 1 :b 2}, ms [m {:a 2, :b 4}, m {:a 5 :b 9}]] ((frequencies ms) m)) |
| 11:01 | clojurebot | 2 |
| 11:01 | gfredericks | it wouldn't be unreasonable for lein to throw an error if the defproject contains a duplicate key, right? |
| 11:01 | clgv | ,,(let [m {:a 1 :b 2}, ms [m {:a 2, :b 4}, {:a 5 :b 9}]] ((frequencies ms) m)) |
| 11:01 | clojurebot | 1 |
| 11:02 | clgv | gfredericks: maybe this leads back to the discussion about exceptions on duplicate keys in literal forms and function construction |
| 11:03 | mmg | if I have a (defn foo [& args]) and I'm trying to transparently wrap that with (defn bar [& args] (foo args)) how can I do that without ending up with ((args)) in foo? I guess I can macro it, but I was wondering if there was a simpler way |
| 11:11 | chronno | mmg: (apply foo args) |
| 11:11 | mmg | Thank you! |
| 11:12 | chronno | mmg: np |
| 11:14 | yedi | hey seangrove: omchaya doesn't really need tx-listen right? since all app events go through a central controller |
| 11:14 | seangrove | yedi: Yeah |
| 11:14 | seangrove | yedi: I wouldn't mind seeing a different architecture for it though that used tx-listen |
| 11:15 | seangrove | Or the same arch, and an explanation of what it does, why it's important, how it fits into Omchaya |
| 11:30 | isaacbw | okay, so what's the point of a protocol if datatypes that "implement" it don't have to implement all the functions |
| 11:30 | isaacbw | maybe I'm misunderstanding this |
| 11:31 | isaacbw | I guess protocols are useful for routing the call to the right data type? |
| 11:31 | isaacbw | like a lightweight multimethod that only matches on type? |
| 11:34 | shep-werk | isaacbw: that's more or less the mental model I use |
| 11:35 | llasram | Plus the ability to `reify` protocols, creating special-purpose/context-specific anonymous implementations of a protocol |
| 11:35 | gtrak | protocols are adhoc type-polymorphism |
| 11:35 | cbp | isaacbw: the point of protocols is to be a better interface |
| 11:35 | cbp | avoid the expression problem and be faster than multimethods |
| 11:36 | shep-werk | the ability to not implement methods doesn't bother me... but I also like programming in fairly dynamic languages like Ruby |
| 11:36 | isaacbw | I'm having trouble understanding why you would want to allow a data type to not implement the whole protocol |
| 11:37 | gtrak | if you know the details of how it'll be used and you're being lazy :-) |
| 11:37 | isaacbw | meh |
| 11:37 | isaacbw | sounds like a "let developers break things at runtime" kind of thing |
| 11:37 | gtrak | never been a problem in practice for us |
| 11:38 | gtrak | the error messages are relatively obvious |
| 11:38 | isaacbw | I guess I won't worry about it then |
| 11:38 | shep-werk | yeah, your unit tests for that type will smoke it out right quick |
| 11:38 | cbp | sounds like a dynamic language slogan |
| 11:39 | isaacbw | anyone here actually use ClojureScript for their front end apps? I'm worried about the amount of boilerplate that comes with it |
| 11:39 | gtrak | what it will protect you from is extending a non-existent method. |
| 11:39 | cbp | I use clojurescript, I have no idea what you meean about boilerplate :-o |
| 11:40 | isaacbw | I'm also worried about how V8/Spidermonkey's GCs handle purely functional data structures |
| 11:40 | isaacbw | cbp: just seems like there's a lot of foundational code that comes along, even with simple programs |
| 11:41 | shep-werk | isaacbw: you dont mean boilerplate that the programmer writes? |
| 11:41 | shep-werk | just the "standard library" ? |
| 11:41 | cbp | isaacbw: the closure compiler is pretty darn good at removing dead code |
| 11:41 | isaacbw | no, I meant generated boilerplate |
| 11:41 | isaacbw | cbp: maybe I'll give it another go |
| 11:41 | cbp | also gzipped the size of your apps is comparable to something like jquary + angular or whatever |
| 11:42 | isaacbw | oh, okay then |
| 11:42 | isaacbw | I wrote a purely functional red black tree in vanilla javascript. That was "fun" |
| 11:42 | gtrak | generated boilerplate is a non-problem, we also have source maps if you're not comfortable looking at the output, but haven't tried them yet. |
| 11:42 | isaacbw | couldn't figure out balanced deletion though |
| 11:42 | cbp | persistent data structures also seem to work pretty damn fine |
| 11:42 | gtrak | load time is insignificant.. code size goes down with advanced mode. |
| 11:42 | cbp | look at Om for an example of that |
| 11:43 | isaacbw | cbp: I do have a problem with saying persistent data structures. Technically they are, I suppose, but what schools teach is usually everything *up* to purely functional |
| 11:43 | isaacbw | I guess Rich Hickey says persistent though, so I'll get over it :P |
| 11:44 | seangrove | dnolen_ bbloom Either of you coming to the cljs meetup on the 27th? |
| 11:44 | gtrak | it's hard to remeber what persistent means, the things that persist are the complexity bounds of the mutable alternatives :-) |
| 11:44 | bbloom | seangrove: i'm flying back to NY at that time |
| 11:44 | isaacbw | also, |
| 11:44 | seangrove | Ah, bummer |
| 11:45 | isaacbw | one last thing and I'll get back to work: is there a good reason proper tail calls aren't implemented other than that it would a PITA to implement the transformations? |
| 11:45 | gtrak | can't do it without affecting java interop |
| 11:45 | isaacbw | ah, okay |
| 11:45 | isaacbw | makes sense |
| 11:45 | noprompt | dnolen_: did you get a chance to look at that macro code? |
| 11:46 | cbp | I think there might be a library that gives tco |
| 11:46 | cbp | maybe something of bbloom i can't remember |
| 11:46 | gtrak | it was cfrisz |
| 11:46 | isaacbw | gtrak: I've heard the excuse that the JVM doesn't support them, but there's no reason that Clojure couldn't do the transformations itself. But interop definitely makes sense |
| 11:46 | Amnesiou_ | What is a good, performant way to dedupe a sequence? Would just applying a hash-set do? |
| 11:46 | gtrak | https://github.com/cjfrisz/clojure-tco |
| 11:47 | isaacbw | we're not getting TCO in Java 8 are we? |
| 11:47 | isaacbw | maybe just lambda |
| 11:47 | isaacbw | ? |
| 11:47 | isaacbw | (as far as cool new features go) |
| 11:47 | gtrak | I heard the old apple jvm did it. |
| 11:48 | Amnesiou_ | (To answer my own question: "distinct" is much more performant.) |
| 11:48 | isaacbw | as someone relatively new to Clojure (as in, I haven't had time to discover the warts), it seems like tail calls are the one big feature that would make Clojure the perfect language |
| 11:48 | seangrove | isaacbw: It comes with Nashorn, which is more interesting for me |
| 11:48 | seangrove | isaacbw: Use recur? |
| 11:49 | seangrove | It's nice to have it verified by the compiler anyway |
| 11:49 | gtrak | isaacbw: lazy seqs are a great alternative most of the time. |
| 11:49 | dnolen_ | seangrove: I'll be returning that day so I won't be able to make it. |
| 11:49 | isaacbw | I know, but I'm used to scheme and not having to be explicit seangrove |
| 11:49 | dnolen_ | noprompt: haven't had a chance yet no |
| 11:49 | cbp | I think removing nil would make it perfect :-P |
| 11:49 | isaacbw | seangrove: a JS engine *shipping* with Java? |
| 11:49 | isaacbw | hrm |
| 11:49 | isaacbw | I left #Node.js after some politics |
| 11:49 | isaacbw | would be nice to see someone come up with an alternative to its asynchronicity model |
| 11:49 | dnolen_ | isaacbw: Nashorn has been in the works for a while now, it's pretty impressive stuff |
| 11:50 | gtrak | cljs on node.jar? |
| 11:50 | noprompt | dnolen_: cool, maybe bbloom might take a look at it? |
| 11:51 | dnolen_ | gtrak: definitely https://avatar-js.java.net/ |
| 11:51 | gfredericks | does vim-fireplace have C-c C-k? |
| 11:51 | gtrak | neat :-) |
| 11:52 | isaacbw | how does "nlp-commons" sound for this jdbc-like NLP abstraction layer |
| 11:52 | isaacbw | or would CommonNLP be better |
| 11:52 | isaacbw | or maybe contrib.nlp ;) |
| 11:52 | bbloom | noprompt: what am i looking at? |
| 11:52 | noprompt | bbloom: a macro |
| 11:52 | bbloom | ? |
| 11:53 | noprompt | bbloom: or at least the base of one https://github.com/noprompt/garden/blob/2.0.0/src/cljx/garden/selectors.cljx#L36-L56 |
| 11:53 | elfenlaid | gfredericks, maybe :%Eval |
| 11:53 | noprompt | bbloom: you can look at the examples below it to see how it works |
| 11:54 | bbloom | noprompt: why am i looking at this? did you have a particular question? |
| 11:56 | noprompt | bbloom: i'm curious there's a better way. |
| 11:56 | noprompt | *if there's |
| 11:56 | shep-werk | isaacbw, gtrak: the IBM JVM also does (some) TCO |
| 11:57 | bbloom | noprompt: i'd have to study a lot more than that one macro to grok what's going on :-P |
| 11:58 | noprompt | bbloom: the examples don't help. :-/ |
| 11:59 | noprompt | bbloom: basically do-selector-fn create the code for a function which takes a single argument and returns a reified instance that satisfies IFn and ICssSelector |
| 11:59 | noprompt | when you invoke the instance it returns the same thing. |
| 11:59 | noprompt | only when you call p/selector on it does it give you the string representation. |
| 12:00 | bbloom | and ICssSelector is essentially your AST node class? |
| 12:00 | noprompt | bbloom: no it's just a protocol |
| 12:00 | noprompt | but i suppose you could think of it that way |
| 12:00 | gfredericks | elfenlaid: cool thanks! |
| 12:00 | bbloom | noprompt: yeah, but do you have a tree of them that is recursively printed in to a css selector string, yes? |
| 12:01 | bbloom | (i think of *everything* that way :-P) |
| 12:01 | noprompt | no trees in this instance. |
| 12:01 | elfenlaid | gfredericks, you may also read this post http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1218390/what-is-your-most-productive-shortcut-with-vim/1220118#1220118 kind of awesome :) |
| 12:02 | bbloom | noprompt: i'm sorry, i'm working on some other stuff right now so i can't dig in at the moment |
| 12:05 | noprompt | bbloom: no worries. :-) |
| 12:06 | isaacbw | so I like the name "nlp commons" but I'm worried that people will think it's something that it's not |
| 12:13 | noprompt | is there a name for this pattern: (fn x [a] (fn y [b] (fn z [c] (x c)))) |
| 12:14 | pyrtsa | Currying? Making a partially applied function? |
| 12:15 | noprompt | it's not totally though because z just ends up returning x |
| 12:15 | pyrtsa | Oh, wait, was calling the (x c) in the end part of the question? |
| 12:15 | noprompt | yes |
| 12:15 | cbp` | a closure? :P |
| 12:16 | Raynes | Currying isn't just partial application. |
| 12:16 | Raynes | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currying |
| 12:17 | clgv | Raynes: yeah, it also makes food delicious |
| 12:17 | Raynes | Yes. |
| 12:17 | Raynes | I remember when Chris Granger made those jokes before I had actually ever had indian food. |
| 12:17 | Raynes | Which is approximately the only curry I've had. |
| 12:17 | clgv | :D |
| 12:19 | Pupnik | how could you live a life without curry! |
| 12:20 | Raynes | Rural Alabama :( |
| 12:21 | pyrtsa | noprompt: Recursion is the best name I could come up so far. :P |
| 12:21 | seangrove | Raynes: But you're in LA now, right? No more excuses. Go grab soem Japanese curry today ;) |
| 12:21 | Raynes | But think of the pizza |
| 12:22 | seangrove | Raynes: Compelling argument. |
| 12:22 | nightfly | ...and Vietnamese curry, and Thai curry |
| 12:22 | clgv | we have a "currywurst" buffet in our canteen every second friday |
| 12:23 | isaacbw | can someone explain why it's [com.novemberain/monger "1.7.0"]. What does the / mean? |
| 12:23 | clgv | isaacbw: separation of group/artifact |
| 12:24 | isaacbw | so when I just do [compojure "1.1.6"], what's going on? |
| 12:24 | isaacbw | no group? |
| 12:25 | TimMc | isaacbw: I think that means compojure/compojure |
| 12:26 | isaacbw | huh, are these packages on on maven central? |
| 12:26 | justin_smith | many are on clojars |
| 12:26 | isaacbw | oh right |
| 12:26 | justin_smith | which is a clojure centric repo, from technomancy who also wrote leiningen |
| 12:26 | isaacbw | I used to know all this stuff, like a year ago |
| 12:26 | isaacbw | too much time with JavaScript |
| 12:28 | technomancy | actually I didn't make clojars |
| 12:30 | justin_smith | oh, I thought it was your deal |
| 12:31 | technomancy | xeqi has been doing most of the maintenance recently |
| 12:32 | isaacbw | hmm, why does clojure-mode default to 1 space indentation? Is there a way to change that to two? |
| 12:32 | technomancy | isaacbw: it's two for most forms |
| 12:32 | technomancy | well for most macro forms |
| 12:32 | isaacbw | technomancy: I'm trying to use hiccup, and it's doing one for vectors within vectors |
| 12:33 | isaacbw | and one for (html\n... |
| 12:33 | technomancy | otherwise it just aligns with the previous arg |
| 12:33 | isaacbw | I added html to the indent list with 2, but I don't think I can do the same thing for lists |
| 12:33 | isaacbw | er, with 0 |
| 12:34 | technomancy | vectors shouldn't introduce any new indentation rules |
| 12:34 | isaacbw | I don't really want 2 space indentation on vectors all the time, just within the (html ) form |
| 12:34 | technomancy | it shouldn't be two for vectors; that's just for function calls |
| 12:35 | isaacbw | yea, but in the case of hiccup it looks a bit more readable with two |
| 12:35 | isaacbw | In my opinion |
| 12:35 | technomancy | you mean indenting data like it's function calls? |
| 12:35 | isaacbw | just in this special case, yea |
| 12:36 | technomancy | no idea |
| 12:36 | isaacbw | or maybe I should juse use something aside from hiccup that actually *does* use function calls |
| 12:37 | isaacbw | instead of trying to mangle the indentation rules |
| 12:38 | jjro | I've aleph http-server, and I would like to use it with lein ring server, so that I get automatical updates to class files, when I'm editing: https://gist.github.com/jrosti/9551391 |
| 12:39 | jjro | using ring-handler with lein ring does not work |
| 12:39 | jjro | nor the approach in gist |
| 12:39 | jjro | apparently there is something that I do not understand |
| 12:40 | isaacbw | how about instead of setting a static number in define-clojure-indent, I set (n-1) where n is the total number of arguments |
| 12:41 | isaacbw | (unrelated to my previous indentation question) |
| 12:41 | technomancy | personally I really hate it when people change indentation rules |
| 12:41 | llasram | srsly |
| 12:41 | llasram | It's so trivial |
| 12:42 | technomancy | because it means you're creating your own little world, and every other contirbutor is going to create inconsistencies |
| 12:42 | isaacbw | I see |
| 12:45 | jjro | or, is it not possible to use aleph http-server with lein ring plugin? |
| 12:46 | isaacbw | technomancy: I don't know, I just like the idea of a DSL that looks at least somewhat like html |
| 12:47 | isaacbw | though I guess I don't have to do the crazy indentation n-1 thing to get what I want |
| 12:47 | justin_smith | isaacbw: you could make a custom file type, meant to be read by clojure, with its own mode / rules. |
| 12:47 | guns | isaacbw: https://github.com/guns/vim-clojure-static/issues/13 |
| 12:48 | guns | isaacbw: A discussion I had about this very topic |
| 12:48 | isaacbw | hold on, so the default indentation for a function call is 1 space, if there are no arguments on the same line as the function symbol, right? |
| 12:48 | isaacbw | oh neat guns, I'll read through |
| 12:48 | technomancy | isaacbw: it's more li |
| 12:48 | technomancy | *like zero columns of indentation |
| 12:49 | technomancy | just aligned to the function instead of the paren |
| 12:49 | isaacbw | alright |
| 12:49 | isaacbw | is there a reason for that? Or do you just assume that most people will have one argument per line including the first line? |
| 12:50 | technomancy | I would guess it's because if you're adding a line break before any args it's because you are having trouble keeping it under 80 cols? |
| 12:50 | technomancy | but these rules were decided upon before I was even born |
| 12:51 | isaacbw | yea I remember this stuff from CL :P |
| 12:51 | isaacbw | I thought maybe clojure would be a little different |
| 12:51 | technomancy | at least there are no brace placement wars |
| 12:51 | guns | OTBS |
| 12:52 | isaacbw | ye olde lispers should have thought about html DSLs! geez |
| 12:53 | technomancy | they were too busy complaining about how SGML is just a crap sexpr syntax |
| 12:54 | technomancy | hard to find fault with that |
| 12:55 | isaacbw | was sgml around before paren s-exprs? |
| 12:56 | technomancy | I don't think so |
| 12:56 | justin_smith | "SGML descended from IBM's Generalized Markup Language (GML), which Charles Goldfarb, Edward Mosher, and Raymond Lorie developed in the 1960s." |
| 12:56 | justin_smith | close I guess? but still newer |
| 12:56 | justin_smith | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Generalized_Markup_Language |
| 12:57 | justin_smith | aha! GML were the initials of the three authors as well, funny |
| 12:57 | justin_smith | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Generalized_Markup_Language like a mashup of keywords, css, and html to my first glance, funny |
| 12:58 | justin_smith | it's cool that we still use all the same tag names |
| 13:10 | pepijndevos | I use compojure with the site handler, which ads params middleware, yet my I get emptyness for a result |
| 13:10 | pepijndevos | https://github.com/weavejester/compojure/blob/master/src/compojure/handler.clj#L28 |
| 13:10 | technomancy | llasram: have you done much with forth? |
| 13:11 | pepijndevos | https://www.refheap.com/58527 |
| 13:13 | sdegutis | noprompt: do you have a way to do {:margin "0 auto"} more conveniently in Gaerdun? |
| 13:13 | llasram | technomancy: I wrote a Forth implementation (for the Z-machine), most of it in Forth, but that's about it |
| 13:14 | noprompt | sdegutis: {:margin [[0 :auto]]} |
| 13:14 | llasram | technomancy: I did go a little further than most people -- got it passing this (admittedly tiny) ANS Forth test suite I found, and running someone else's Forth Tetris implementation |
| 13:15 | technomancy | llasram: saw your name on a comment on this post about implementing itsy forth |
| 13:15 | technomancy | cool |
| 13:15 | sdegutis | noprompt: neat, I didn't think of using inner-vectors for that |
| 13:15 | technomancy | llasram: been playing with the idea of doing my keyboard firmware in forth |
| 13:16 | technomancy | kinda shocked by the fact that there's only one forth on avr that I could find, and it messes with the bootloader |
| 13:16 | rasmusto | nkro over usb? |
| 13:16 | noprompt | sdegutis: [[]] <-- space separated list, [] <-- comma separated list |
| 13:16 | llasram | technomancy: Oh, neat. That could be pretty cool |
| 13:16 | llasram | technomancy: Why does it mess with the boot loader? |
| 13:17 | noprompt | sdegutis: [[1 2] [3 4]] => 1 2, 3 4 |
| 13:17 | technomancy | rasmusto: only going up to 6; I don't really care about gaming |
| 13:17 | isaacbw | how do you collect a lazy sequence into a list? |
| 13:17 | sdegutis | noprompt: one trick I've done with manual CSS was doing "margin: 0 auto; margin-left: 10px;". The benefit is that you can specify one-off adjustments without having to modify the two-dim default. But it's not possible by default in Gaerdun because maps are unordered. |
| 13:17 | technomancy | llasram: it's not designed for use on arduinos specifically |
| 13:17 | rasmusto | technomancy: how about keyboard-as-an-instrument? gotta do chords :) |
| 13:17 | noprompt | sdegutis: you can just use two maps in that case and place one above the other. |
| 13:18 | technomancy | rasmusto: well... with modifiers you can do 10 keys |
| 13:18 | sdegutis | noprompt: I think it'd be cool to add a feature that lets you specify both a default value and some overrides, maybe like {:margin [[0 :auto] {:left "40px"}]} |
| 13:18 | guns | rasmusto: There was a comment on HN that claimed that nkro over usb can be larger than 6 if you simply declare that in your device profile (and your hardware supports it)? Do you know if this is true? |
| 13:18 | technomancy | and I only *have* ten fingers |
| 13:18 | noprompt | sdegutis: there's no "one map rule" |
| 13:18 | technomancy | so it seems OK unless you are designing a device for extraterrestrials or mutants |
| 13:18 | sdegutis | noprompt: true but it's nice to keep related rules in the same place. |
| 13:18 | rasmusto | guns: I don't. I just use one of those usb->ps2 adapters |
| 13:19 | noprompt | sdegutis: i typically group everything in to layout, typography, and theme. |
| 13:19 | guns | rasmusto: Just seems like the kind of knowledge that has become cargo culted, but the truth is in plain sight |
| 13:19 | clojurebot | 'Sea, mhuise. |
| 13:19 | noprompt | sdegutis: layout = positioning, dimensions, display, typography = strictly font stuff, theme = everything else |
| 13:20 | sdegutis | noprompt: sounds like a good idea, but I'm not that pro at CSS yet :/ |
| 13:20 | noprompt | sdegutis: it just takes discipline, :) |
| 13:20 | justin_smith | technomancy: if you mash your face on the keyboard, I bet you can hit more than ten keys at once |
| 13:20 | justin_smith | don't forget the useful face-mash potential you could open up! |
| 13:20 | noprompt | sdegutis: i use defstyles to group all those things together, and defrule to abstract common selectors |
| 13:21 | technomancy | justin_smith: ten keys is already 23% of the total number on this board to begin with |
| 13:21 | sdegutis | i see thank you sir for your time |
| 13:22 | technomancy | llasram: do you know of any good resources on implementing forth with a limited level of C knowledge? |
| 13:22 | justin_smith | or, what if I want to do keyboard-to-midi input to play cecil taylor songs? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EstPgi4eMe4 |
| 13:22 | technomancy | "Just enough C to get you to the point where you don't need it any more" is what I'm looking for I guess |
| 13:23 | llasram | technomancy: Well, most of the Forth resources I looked at start with assembly, so... :-) |
| 13:23 | technomancy | heh, oh right |
| 13:23 | llasram | Where does the C come in? |
| 13:23 | llasram | Oh, ok |
| 13:23 | technomancy | just trying to bootstrap with minimal effort |
| 13:23 | technomancy | maybe if I don't already know C it'd be quicker to bone up on AVR assembly |
| 13:24 | technomancy | it's supposed to be a decent instruction set |
| 13:24 | llasram | Probably, because that's probably how you'll want to write the primitives you can't/don't want to write in Forth |
| 13:24 | llasram | Are you planning to write from scratch, or port an existing Forth? |
| 13:24 | technomancy | probably start from scratch |
| 13:25 | justin_smith | and forth has good assembly interop, so you could bootstrap up functionality in a repl on the running forth system if you have a serial into it |
| 13:25 | technomancy | I don't intend it to be a general purpose impl |
| 13:25 | TimMc | technomancy: Hardware macros allow you to have more than 10 keypresses simultaneously. |
| 13:25 | technomancy | just enough to get my keyboard firmware running |
| 13:25 | TimMc | but I feel like that's still excessive |
| 13:25 | llasram | Cool. Then yeah -- I think doing the AVR assembly is the way to go |
| 13:25 | llasram | Is there an emulator available? |
| 13:25 | technomancy | good question |
| 13:26 | technomancy | if so it's not in apt |
| 13:26 | sdegutis | noprompt: and thank you for writing Gaerdun |
| 13:26 | sdegutis | it is nice software |
| 13:27 | technomancy | oh, there's a simulator |
| 13:27 | llasram | Ahhh |
| 13:27 | llasram | Less hardcore than Forthing directly to the hardware, but probably easier :-) |
| 13:28 | technomancy | especially if I want to actually use my keyboard while writing it |
| 13:28 | llasram | Yeeeeah |
| 13:28 | llasram | Chicken, meet egg |
| 13:29 | justin_smith | woah, bootstrapping keyboard |
| 13:29 | justin_smith | start with two working keys, slowly build that up to fully working |
| 13:29 | technomancy | bahaha |
| 13:29 | justin_smith | (one key plus mearured timings?) |
| 13:29 | isaacbw | does anyone have an idea for a nicer way to write this? https://gist.github.com/isaacbw/9552599 |
| 13:30 | isaacbw | (let alone the fact that it won't do exactly what I want, I'm not realizing |
| 13:30 | isaacbw | *now |
| 13:30 | rasmusto | guns: for some reason this video cracked me up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMjczjhelWM |
| 13:30 | isaacbw | but in terms of the code itself and what it does |
| 13:31 | llasram | isaacbw: You call `apply str` where `str/join` might be appropriate, and call `str/join` where `str` would be more appropriate |
| 13:31 | llasram | Also, you probably want to require `clojure.string :as str` |
| 13:33 | gfredericks | `clojure.string :as ring` |
| 13:33 | llasram | lolololol |
| 13:33 | llasram | I don't know why I found that so funny |
| 13:33 | llasram | But I just frightened my co-workers |
| 13:34 | llasram | (inc gfredericks) |
| 13:34 | lazybot | ⇒ 42 |
| 13:34 | seangrove | It's like js.evil |
| 13:36 | TimMc | seangrove: clj.evil would have more alter-var-root |
| 13:36 | seangrove | Err, evil.js |
| 13:36 | TimMc | js.evil is evil.js's evil twin |
| 13:36 | seangrove | TimMc: The idea was to prevent hot-linking js I believe. It would randomly change global defs |
| 13:36 | seangrove | alert => eval, + => -, etc. But it wouldn't be consistent about it |
| 13:36 | TimMc | *nod* |
| 13:37 | seangrove | Really very lovely, thinking about it |
| 13:38 | seangrove | Someone should write a polyfilly for evil.js - normalize behavior even when a script with it is loaded |
| 13:39 | TimMc | You'd have to work pretty hard to get ahold of the original native fns. |
| 13:42 | isaacbw | can put-clojure-indent take something like *either* 1 or 0? |
| 13:43 | llasram | isaacbw: So, what are you trying to do? |
| 13:44 | isaacbw | I'm experimenting with a little html dsl that looks like: (div { attributes } |
| 13:44 | isaacbw | (div { attributes } |
| 13:44 | isaacbw | (div ... |
| 13:45 | isaacbw | but I want the indentation to still work if { attributes } is omitted |
| 13:45 | guns | rasmusto: very face mash friendly |
| 13:45 | _tim__ | Hi, is there an easy way to print a ratio as a floating point using format? doesn't need to be very accurate, just to help me debug. |
| 13:45 | isaacbw | maybe I shouldn't be doing what I'm doing... |
| 13:45 | llasram | Maybe :-) |
| 13:48 | justin_smith | ,(format "%f" (double (/ 1 7))); _tim__: there is always this |
| 13:48 | clojurebot | "0.142857" |
| 13:50 | justin_smith | or %g if you need more digits of course |
| 13:51 | _tim__ | justin_smith: thanks, is that first converting to a double or casting? |
| 13:51 | justin_smith | I don't think casting exists in clojure? it is a conversion |
| 13:51 | justin_smith | I don't think a ratio would cleanly cast to double |
| 13:51 | _tim__ | justing_smith: thanks |
| 13:59 | bore | Hello |
| 14:00 | bore | I have a beginners question. Is it possible to partially apply a macro? This doesn't even sound right, but it would be useful in my case |
| 14:00 | justin_smith | ,(apply str (map char [104 101 108 108 111])) |
| 14:00 | clojurebot | "hello" |
| 14:00 | justin_smith | no, it is not possible, but you could fake it depending on your needs |
| 14:01 | bore | how could I fake it? is there a general approach? |
| 14:01 | justin_smith | #(or % :default) is one example |
| 14:02 | justin_smith | wait, that's weird - #(and :default %) |
| 14:02 | justin_smith | slightly less weird |
| 14:02 | justin_smith | n/m that's still messed up - what are you trying to do? |
| 14:02 | bore | this is cool but not what I want |
| 14:03 | bore | so I have a macro that wraps a carmine (redis) call and it has a signature of [db body] |
| 14:03 | bore | something like (defmacro wcar [db body] ..... |
| 14:04 | bore | now in any given namespace I alway want db to be the same value |
| 14:04 | justin_smith | a pattern for that is a new function with closure over db |
| 14:04 | bore | so I would ideally like to fix the first argument |
| 14:05 | bore | how would this new function help? |
| 14:05 | justin_smith | is it body or & body? |
| 14:05 | justin_smith | for the latter you need another macro, otherwise you could maybe use a function |
| 14:05 | bore | it's actuall & body |
| 14:05 | bore | it's actually & body |
| 14:05 | justin_smith | right, so macros cause the need for more macros |
| 14:06 | justin_smith | (defmacro wcardb [& body] `(wcar db ~@body)) ; assuming db is bound in the same namespace |
| 14:06 | justin_smith | there may be a smarter way to do that |
| 14:07 | bore | I have one like that, but when I caught myself repeating this pattern I thought there might be a more elegant way |
| 14:07 | justin_smith | *is bound, or will be bound by the time the code the macro expands to is invoked |
| 14:07 | justin_smith | macros beget macros, the other solution is not to use a macro |
| 14:07 | justin_smith | (in the first place - a non macro version of wcar) |
| 14:08 | bore | alright so I didn't have a stupid approach |
| 14:08 | justin_smith | I don't think so - maybe someone else has a better suggestion |
| 14:08 | bore | I am not sure how to do that, but I'll have a nose around - it's all still quite new to me |
| 14:09 | bore | I need to delay execution of form passed to wcar |
| 14:09 | bore | so I guess I'm stuck with macros then... |
| 14:09 | justin_smith | an alternative is to require a lambda as argument |
| 14:10 | dnolen_ | bore: I would step back and honestly rethink your approach. Just have all functions take db as an explicit parameter. If you think you macros something is wrong. macros are always the very last thing to think about, and usually you realize you probably don't need them. |
| 14:10 | justin_smith | (inc dnolen_) |
| 14:10 | lazybot | ⇒ 1 |
| 14:10 | justin_smith | (inc dnolen) |
| 14:10 | lazybot | ⇒ 14 |
| 14:12 | TimMc | dnolen_: Got a core.logic question for you. How hard do you think it would be to add interval logic such that the answer would be min/max floats for each of the variables? |
| 14:12 | dnolen_ | TimMc: CLP(R) needs it's own kind of solver |
| 14:12 | bore | I am quite new to the language, so I followed carmine libaray instructions to use a macro, but I agree - getting more familiar with the clojure would definetly help in the long run |
| 14:12 | dnolen_ | bore: ugh |
| 14:14 | justin_smith | that's what I meant by the macros beget macros thing - you could check out the source of the macro you are using, maybe there is an underlying function you can use |
| 14:14 | justin_smith | if it's well designed there will be |
| 14:14 | TimMc | dnolen_: Aaron Brooks hacked up something with finite domains that emits all possible discrete solutions, and I could mine that for min/max values -- but it feels like there should be a native solution. |
| 14:14 | TimMc | Then again, I've never used core.logic. :-P |
| 14:14 | justin_smith | bore: there is a macro, clojure.repl/source that shows you the source of a macro or function when possible |
| 14:15 | TimMc | This is for the Clojure version of https://github.com/timmc/sourdough, so it is obviously very important. |
| 14:15 | dnolen_ | TimMc: but did you really mean floats? |
| 14:15 | TimMc | Yep. |
| 14:15 | bore | thanks for tips I'll try to sort something out |
| 14:15 | TimMc | dnolen_: Well... float intervals, specifically. |
| 14:15 | dnolen_ | TimMc: yeah when I was looking at this stuff, FD and R really seemed fundamentally different - but I also never really dug into R |
| 14:16 | TimMc | There's another problem here, which is that the numbers can be seriously fuzzy. |
| 14:16 | TimMc | 200 + 200 = 380 sometimes |
| 14:16 | TimMc | I guess that's true for floats in general, though. |
| 14:16 | dnolen_ | TimMc: oh k, right - so yeah intervals would be an extension to CLP(R) |
| 14:17 | dnolen_ | http://www.ofai.at/cgi-bin/tr-online?number+93-19 |
| 14:17 | dnolen_ | haven't looked at this stuff enough to know how much of the interval stuff could be hijacked for this |
| 14:17 | TimMc | Thanks, I'll follow that up! |
| 14:18 | TimMc | I *may* be able to do this without a general logic engine, though. |
| 14:25 | edw | Has anyone here deployed a Clojure app as an uberjar (because you needed to build from private deps) on Heroku? |
| 14:26 | justin_smith | is that even possible? |
| 14:26 | edw | justin_smith: I would like it to be possible... |
| 14:26 | technomancy | sure, uberjars with private deps should work fine |
| 14:28 | justin_smith | technomancy: all the docs I find mention uploading source and having heroku do the building - how does one use precompiled objects on heroku? |
| 14:28 | edw | technomancy: What I mean is that I'd like to build the uberjar locally, so I don't need to deal with the s3-wagon thing... |
| 14:29 | edw | justin_smith: What you said. |
| 14:29 | technomancy | edw: oh, I see. you could use the inline buildpack if you don't mind committing the uberjar to git |
| 14:29 | technomancy | https://github.com/kr/heroku-buildpack-inline |
| 14:29 | loliveira | any LightTable user? |
| 14:29 | technomancy | kinda dumb that you have to set a separate buildpack for that, but whatever |
| 14:30 | edw | technomancy: I assumed that I'd be committing to doing that. I could just commit to a non-master branch and deploy that... |
| 14:31 | technomancy | pushes to non-master don't actually trigger a deploy though |
| 14:32 | technomancy | your heroku git repo would just be a dummy repo that wouldn't be related to your primary source repo |
| 14:33 | stuartsierra | Any last comments on the new G.Closure library release? https://groups.google.com/d/topic/clojurescript/cYKt6dI4Q7A/discussion |
| 14:33 | clojurebot | No entiendo |
| 14:33 | stuartsierra | I'll make the final release to Maven Central today unless someone reports a problem. |
| 14:35 | technomancy | edw: actually the null buildpack would make more sense for what you describe https://github.com/ryandotsmith/null-buildpack |
| 14:38 | edw | technomancy: Thanks. All check both out. |
| 14:56 | asthasr | Hey guys. What's the canonical way to have a side-effect (like logging) inside a threading macro? |
| 14:56 | asthasr | For example, (->> x fn fn2 fn3 (log some-message) fn4 fn5) |
| 14:56 | asthasr | or is this just massively terrible |
| 14:57 | technomancy | asthasr: doto works with -> |
| 14:59 | asthasr | technomancy: Ah, didn't know about doto. Thanks |
| 15:00 | amalloy | asthasr: combining doto and -> is like magic |
| 15:01 | amalloy | you can even do it in both "directions": (doto (Person.) (.setName "steve") (-> (.getFriends) (doto (.add mike) (.add jane)))) |
| 15:05 | ztellman | amalloy: I can never understand what the hell is going on when you do that |
| 15:06 | technomancy | http://p.hagelb.org/alternate.gif |
| 15:06 | asthasr | amalloy: I have confusion. Messing around with doto in the repl, why doesn't (doto 3 (+ 5) (* 9)) return 72? |
| 15:07 | amalloy | because doto is for side effects |
| 15:07 | asthasr | ahh, so ultimately it will just return the original |
| 15:07 | asthasr | derp |
| 15:07 | asthasr | i'm dumb |
| 15:07 | amalloy | evaluating 3+5 doesn't change what 3 is |
| 15:07 | technomancy | (doto 'some.ns require in-ns) is my favourite |
| 15:08 | amalloy | yes, i like that one too, technomancy. unashamed to have stolen it |
| 15:08 | technomancy | abomination or handy shortcut? you decide! |
| 15:08 | amalloy | i remember being confused as to why (require 'some.ns) suddenly started returning nil - i was so used to using the doto version and getting 'some.ns returned |
| 15:08 | turbopape | hi guys , I use inside a dosync several send-offs to the same agent, like dosync ( let [....] (send-off db-agent (fn [_] write-to-db-1) ) (send-off db-agent (fn [_] write-to-db-1) ) ... ) |
| 15:09 | turbopape | but it seems that sometimes some agents jsut don't do the work... |
| 15:09 | turbopape | any idea on how to investigate ? |
| 15:10 | justin_smith | are you checking agent-error? |
| 15:11 | turbopape2 | yep. nothing in it ... |
| 15:11 | sdegutis | amalloy: fwiw i agree with ztellman |
| 15:11 | justin_smith | so they are just not running? |
| 15:11 | turbopape2 | I think it has to do with the change of state ... |
| 15:11 | sdegutis | ... this time |
| 15:11 | turbopape2 | some of them are , the others not |
| 15:12 | turbopape2 | I mean, I think I don't get the agent hold after change of state thing, i think... |
| 15:12 | turbopape2 | Will it be okay to use only one agent and put the treatment as a do block inside onlye one send-off ? |
| 15:13 | turbopape2 | how would you do it guys ? |
| 15:17 | amalloy | sdegutis: if there's a coding style that is expressive but you find hard to read, you should try using it for a while - the enforced practice helps broaden your mind. i can't remember the specifics anymore, but there was something like that i wanted to practice, and now i use it so often i apparently can't remember what it was |
| 15:26 | AmandaC | Hey, anybody in here have experience with gloss? I’m trying to parse a data structure that has fixed-length strings, but null-pads them to fit that length, I’d rather not have the nulls in the resulting data, but I’m not really sure how to specify the thing to not have them. :s |
| 15:27 | seangrove | technomancy: Have you gotten around to fixing namespaces to make them less mutation-based monstrosities? |
| 15:27 | amalloy | AmandaC: you can specify a gloss codec that includes the nulls, and then (compile-frame codec (fn pre-encode [s] (...add some nulls...)) (fn post-decode [s] (...remove the nulls...))) |
| 15:28 | AmandaC | amalloy: ah, so there’s no way to do it using the default gloss.core/string codec? |
| 15:28 | amalloy | probably not, i dunno |
| 15:29 | amalloy | there's no need to make *everything* a primitive, when there are so many ways to layer stuff on top of the primitives |
| 15:34 | technomancy | seangrove: lunch |
| 15:34 | technomancy | and no, I only rant about things on IRC in hopes that someone else will fix it these days |
| 15:35 | technomancy | it's my new MO |
| 15:35 | seangrove | technomancy: Ah, so that's how we can recognize you if you pop up under a different nick |
| 15:37 | stuartsierra | Is it still the case that ClojureScript cannot catch non-Object errors? |
| 15:39 | dnolen_ | stuartsierra: catch :default |
| 15:39 | stuartsierra | dnolen_: got it, thanks. |
| 15:39 | dnolen_ | stuartsierra: also remembered a few other new things, specify/specify!/clone |
| 15:40 | dnolen_ | (specify foo ...) is like reify, but calls clone on foo and then mutates it to add methods |
| 15:40 | dnolen_ | desugars into |
| 15:40 | dnolen_ | (specify! (clone foo) ...) |
| 15:41 | stuartsierra | dnolen_: OK. What's `clone`? |
| 15:41 | dnolen_ | stuartsierra: clone just calls -clone protocol method, ICloneable |
| 15:41 | dnolen_ | stuartsierra: it just returns a clone, like meta does, but doesn't change anything |
| 15:42 | stuartsierra | dnolen_: You mean `clone` gives you a new instance of a data structure which is equal to the one you passed in? |
| 15:43 | dnolen_ | stuartsierra: yep equiv, not JS equals |
| 15:43 | stuartsierra | OK |
| 15:44 | stuartsierra | Is `clone` a deep-copy then? |
| 15:45 | dnolen_ | stuartsierra: semantically yes like meta. But really all implementation just call the constructor again with current fields |
| 15:45 | dnolen_ | stuartsierra: https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/src/cljs/cljs/core.cljs#L677 |
| 15:46 | noprompt | $seen Raynes |
| 15:46 | lazybot | Raynes was last seen talking on ##eleventhbit 1 hour and 15 minutes ago. |
| 15:46 | dnolen_ | stuartsierra: http://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/test/cljs/cljs/core_test.cljs#L2068 demonstrate specify, and clarifies the equality bits |
| 15:47 | stuartsierra | dnolen_: Is "IWoz" a deliberate Steve Wozniack reference? |
| 15:47 | seangrove | Creepy, cross-channel tracking of Raynes |
| 15:47 | dnolen_ | stuartsierra: haha no |
| 15:49 | stuartsierra | Looking at the implementation, it seems pretty clear that `clone` is *not* a deep copy. |
| 15:49 | sdegutis_ | Wait, Clojure has a deep-copy? |
| 15:51 | dnolen_ | stuartsierra: but it doesn't need to be in precisely the same way meta doesn't need to be |
| 15:52 | dnolen_ | stuartsierra: note that transients don't support for the obvious reasons |
| 15:52 | dnolen_ | stuartsierra: er, I've mean with-meta this whole time of course |
| 15:53 | stuartsierra | OK |
| 15:54 | stuartsierra | dnolen_: Are there docs for `specify!` more recent than http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/specify+i.e.+reify+for+instances ? |
| 15:54 | dnolen_ | stuartsierra: not really, those docs are more ambitious wrt to optimizations than what is present in the current implementation |
| 15:55 | dnolen_ | stuartsierra: the highlevel stuff does apply |
| 15:55 | stuartsierra | OK cool |
| 15:56 | stuartsierra | dnolen_: Thanks! |
| 15:57 | dnolen_ | stuartsierra: np |
| 15:57 | AmandaC | Hrm, stupid question. I’ve got a function that needs a few intermediate values. How can I make these values not leak to the global context? Or is the idea that I’m supposed to chain them all together into one giant expression? |
| 15:57 | stuartsierra | dnolen_: And congrats on the KT Coders training announcement too |
| 15:57 | dnolen_ | stuartsierra: thanks! |
| 15:59 | amalloy | AmandaC: use a let? |
| 16:00 | AmandaC | amalloy: hrm |
| 16:01 | scape_ | definitely sounds like a place for let |
| 16:01 | amalloy | your question implies that you were considering using def for your intermediate values - it's *never* (with exceptions for experts only) right to def something inside a function |
| 16:01 | AmandaC | I see. |
| 16:02 | AmandaC | Yeah, I am using def inside the function, this is the code, to be precise: http://amanda.darkdna.net/p/25c9b |
| 16:02 | scape_ | ,(let [x 1, y 2] (prn x)) |
| 16:02 | amalloy | that's the purpose let serves |
| 16:02 | clojurebot | 1\n |
| 16:02 | amalloy | hey, nice-looking paste site. <3 dark themes |
| 16:04 | llasram | AmandaC: Do you come from scheme? |
| 16:04 | AmandaC | llasram: nope, actually. I’m coming from no-lisp-experience. :P |
| 16:04 | amalloy | AmandaC: https://www.refheap.com/31483d5e44072050fa310b865 would be one reasonably standard way to rewrite that |
| 16:04 | llasram | AmandaC: Clojure `def` is explicitly global -- what it does is create a var (if necessary) and intern it into the current global namespace |
| 16:05 | llasram | AmandaC: Oh, ok. Scheme def-equiv is lexicaly-scoped, which leads some astray |
| 16:05 | AmandaC | I was considering it like a normal variable set. :p |
| 16:05 | AmandaC | amalloy: hrm, that looks a rather bit nicer, yes/ |
| 16:05 | AmandaC | thanks. |
| 16:06 | scape_ | yea for some reason def is the first thing that shows up when learning clojure, but really it should come later to reduce confusion |
| 16:06 | amalloy | AmandaC: note that you never use src, and you use a variable named bitmap that doesn't seem to exist |
| 16:07 | AmandaC | Whoops |
| 16:07 | AmandaC | Yeah, src is used in making bitmap |
| 16:09 | dnolen_ | AmandaC: some what of a sidenote, but variable assignment as found in most other languages just doesn't exist in ClojureScript |
| 16:09 | dnolen_ | AmandaC: er meant Clojure there |
| 16:09 | AmandaC | Heh, I got the meaning. and yeah, I’m discovering that now. :p |
| 16:10 | amalloy | AmandaC: just for funsies, note that https://www.refheap.com/4f1c1b5c5cfc334a54cad3d26 would be a way to do it all as one big expression, as you mentioned |
| 16:10 | scape_ | AmandaC: i like that paste page you have, did you design this or is it a library? |
| 16:10 | AmandaC | scape_: the hi lighting is a library, the CSS I made myself. p |
| 16:11 | cbp | neat |
| 16:11 | AmandaC | the hi lighting is done by the Pygments python library, which I use to generate a static-html page, the CSS is to mirror the Vim inkpot theme which I used heavily back in my vim days |
| 16:12 | scape_ | cool |
| 16:12 | amalloy | llasram: you asked that already? |
| 16:12 | amalloy | oh sorry, i was scrolled back |
| 16:12 | amalloy | lol |
| 16:13 | amalloy | AmandaC: are you aware of import? it would save you typing out the package names inline, where they just clutter things |
| 16:15 | AmandaC | amalloy: well, I have to import the java classes, but I’m not really sure what I’d do to shorten them from there? |
| 16:15 | llasram | amalloy, IRC time-traveler! |
| 16:15 | scape_ | lol |
| 16:15 | scape_ | you import or require it and give it a short hand for the namespace |
| 16:16 | amalloy | AmandaC: https://www.refheap.com/bd51be6e4aa2ec9d9e8eb202f |
| 16:17 | AmandaC | oh, huh |
| 16:17 | amalloy | you don't actually have to import java classes to use them - they're always available |
| 16:17 | amalloy | import just lets you not mention the package name |
| 16:17 | AmandaC | Ah |
| 16:17 | AmandaC | That’d make the code much cleaner, I though I had to import them to use them. :p |
| 16:17 | AmandaC | I already have the import statements. |
| 16:18 | scape_ | :) |
| 16:21 | AmandaC | Oh yes, that’s definitely much cleaner. :D |
| 16:24 | srruby | I'm registering for Clojure/West. Anyone have a discount code? Thanks, John |
| 16:40 | stuartsierra | Is `:print-input-delimiter` still a valid build option in ClojureScript? |
| 16:48 | gfredericks | is there a solid jruby <-> clojure data translator lib somewhere? |
| 16:49 | gfredericks | zweikopf looks promising |
| 16:53 | dnolen_ | stuartsierra: whoa what is that? |
| 16:53 | DomKM_ | gfredericks: I used zweikopf for this https://github.com/DomKM/whois.clj. It works well. |
| 16:53 | dnolen_ | stuartsierra: and yes it is |
| 16:53 | stuartsierra | dnolen_: More important question: is it still relevant given source maps? |
| 16:54 | dnolen_ | stuartsierra: I just don't know what that does |
| 16:55 | stuartsierra | dnolen_: OK |
| 17:13 | stuartsierra | FYI, it's a G.Closure compiler thing to insert comments between concatenated files. https://developers.google.com/closure/compiler/docs/api-ref |
| 17:14 | BartAdv | (def s (atom "")) <- how can I do instance? checks on the wrapped value? |
| 17:14 | BartAdv | hm, I can deref, alright |
| 17:15 | edw | technomancy: ping |
| 17:18 | edw | technomancy: unping |
| 17:19 | seangrove | technomancy: reping |
| 17:26 | stuartsierra | I have released G.Closure library 0.0-20140226-71326067 for sync to Maven Central. |
| 17:30 | dnolen_ | stuartsierra: excellent |
| 17:32 | stuartsierra | And now I have a script to build it directly from the Git source, so we don't have to wait for Google to make a versioned release. |
| 17:37 | tbaldridge | nice! there's some sweet async stuff in the new versions |
| 17:37 | tbaldridge | things that I think can replace the dispatcher in core.async |
| 17:38 | dnolen_ | tbaldridge: yep that's what I was thinking |
| 17:39 | dnolen_ | tbaldridge: I think you probably want to retain the custom queue'ing logic for setTimeout people but otherwise yes |
| 18:30 | [swift]_ | what's the best book for new clojure users nowadays? |
| 18:33 | justin_smith | the clojure programming o'reilly book is decent |
| 18:35 | [swift]_ | justin_smith: sounds good. i'll give it a shot |
| 18:44 | FatsDT | What is the fastest way to determine the latest stable version of a package? |
| 18:45 | jcsims | FatsDT: something like lein-ancient? https://github.com/xsc/lein-ancient |
| 18:46 | FatsDT | "./lein search $packagename" gives me many versions |
| 18:46 | FatsDT | I usually end up visiting the github pages for every package to figure out the version. That can't be the right way to do it. |
| 18:48 | AmandaC | FatsDT: just go for the highest one? :p |
| 18:50 | shep-home | So, am I missing a clean way of getting a lazy seq out of a core.asyn channel? |
| 18:56 | shep-home | like, I have some code, but I guess I'd expect there to be one in core.async itself. |
| 18:56 | shep-home | But there may be a good reason I'm overlooking |
| 18:56 | justin_smith | https://gist.github.com/gerritjvv/7230860 this may be relevant? |
| 18:57 | shep-home | justin_smith: yeah, that's what im doing (just one chan for me though, so it's a touch simpler) |
| 18:57 | arohner | shep-home: what semantics are you expecting when there is no data in the channel? Taking is stateful, which kind of conflicts w/ laziness |
| 19:01 | shep-home | arohner: if there's nothing, I'd be ok with blocking. That seems plausible - a seq based on IO could have pauses too |
| 19:02 | arohner | I'm just pointing out that those decisions have to be made somewhere, and it's a tradeoff |
| 19:03 | arohner | so the library probably doesn't support it already, just because it's hard to make something that works for everyone |
| 19:05 | shep-home | arohner: valid point |
| 19:06 | shep-home | arohner: onto-chan does exist though |
| 19:06 | shep-home | does it not have the same tradeoffs? |
| 19:07 | shep-home | also spool and to-chan |
| 19:22 | BartAdv | hm, is it possible to set reference value without invoking watchers? |
| 19:27 | justin_smith | can you just make the watcher more specific? |
| 19:27 | justin_smith | or is it that you are worried the watcher would not get called? |
| 19:28 | BartAdv | no, my watcher is updating the GUI textbox, and now, if I wanted to do two-way binding, the TextChanged event could reset the refeence value, but that would invoke watcher that would again alter the textbox value and... |
| 19:29 | justin_smith | you could paramaterize the data with who last touched it and make sure the gui sets that key, and also checks it |
| 19:30 | justin_smith | which may mean promoting the data to a map with a :value key, or some such |
| 19:31 | BartAdv | or maybe using some meta? |
| 19:31 | BartAdv | ok, I will think about it, thanks |
| 19:31 | justin_smith | yeah, you could alter the meta I guess |
| 19:31 | justin_smith | but while the data is atomic, I don't know if the metadata is? |
| 19:31 | justin_smith | (synchronized, whatever...) |
| 20:20 | gfredericks | is it better to test the defproject macro by using eval in leiningen-core's tests, or by using a test project in the leiningen-proper tests? |
| 20:21 | dnolen_ | a workaround for using cool JS libs with closure advanced compilation even if they don't provide externs - http://swannodette.github.io/2014/03/14/externs-got-you-down/ |
| 21:04 | mr-foobar | how do you create an edn data structure with tagged literals ? |
| 21:21 | gfredericks | mr-foobar: it's not quite clear what that means; could you describe why you're trying to do that? |
| 21:27 | technomancy | gfredericks: use a test project |
| 21:27 | gfredericks | technomancy: damn I guessed wrong |
| 21:27 | mr-foobar | gfredericks: I am reading an edn string from ajax -- #foo/bar [1 2 3] -- converting it to clojure ds. I have made some changes and now I want to serialize it back to edn. |
| 21:28 | gfredericks | technomancy: do you know what would cause `bin/lein test` to exit quickly with no output? |
| 21:28 | gfredericks | this is after changing defproject |
| 21:29 | gfredericks | mr-foobar: I've only accomplished that by extending print-method for a custom type |
| 21:29 | gfredericks | mr-foobar: or :type metadata |
| 21:29 | technomancy | gfredericks: "because bootstrapping" might be the best I can offer with available data |
| 21:29 | technomancy | and my battery is about to cut out |
| 21:29 | jonh | eep |
| 21:30 | gfredericks | mr-foobar: here's an example: https://github.com/hiredman/bytes/blob/master/src/com/thelastcitadel/bytes.clj |
| 21:30 | gfredericks | technomancy: thanks :) |
| 21:30 | technomancy | gfredericks: can help later if you open an issue |
| 21:31 | gfredericks | roger |
| 21:31 | technomancy | or a pull request with a big "NOT READY" description |
| 21:32 | `szx_ | i'm struggling with what seems to be a pretty common problem people encounter when building a game in clojure, i.e. updating nested state |
| 21:32 | `szx_ | e.g. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/clojure/kWylqe4e3-Y/i_-Q0BlkgMUJ |
| 21:35 | `szx_ | in my case i have a world map representing trains that move on tracks that looks like this: {:lines [{:path [list of coords] :trains [{train1..}{train2...}]} {:path... }] } |
| 21:36 | `szx_ | i'm trying to figure out a good way to, for example, on click, find the closest train and update it |
| 21:36 | `szx_ | finding it easy, e.g. using mapcat but then i lose my "reference" to the train and can't update it |
| 21:36 | `szx_ | i keep wanting to have some kind of id/pointer (ugh) but it doesn't seem like the right solution |
| 21:38 | `szx_ | anyway, any advice would be appreciated |
| 21:41 | amalloy | i don't really understand how you would use mapcat to find a particular train, `szx_. i have to go, so i can't answer your particular question, but if you can provide a more concrete example, someone else will have a better chance than with the current poorly-defined question |
| 21:42 | `szx_ | i meant i use mapcat to find all the trains in all lines, then iterate as usual |
| 21:42 | `szx_ | amalloy_: using reduce, for example |
| 21:43 | AmandaC | `szx_: did you see that LightTable programmer’s explanation on that one game-dev strategy? |
| 21:43 | AmandaC | Seemed interesting. I’d probably try it out if I didn’t vow to never touch direct game programming again. :p |
| 21:43 | `szx_ | AmandaC: i'm not sure, link? |
| 21:44 | `szx_ | AmandaC: are you talking about one of chris granger's posts? |
| 21:44 | AmandaC | `szx_: it was mentioned in somewhat-depth on the ClojureTV YouTube channel’s conj talks. Not sure what year, though |
| 21:45 | `szx_ | AmandaC: i'll try to find it, thanks for the lead |
| 21:46 | `szx_ | http://www.chris-granger.com/2012/12/11/anatomy-of-a-knockout/ was it this one? |
| 21:46 | AmandaC | That seems to expand on it, but yeah, that’s what it’s referencing, that game design thingy |
| 21:49 | `szx_ | well he uses ids which is an approach i considered but it still feels a little clumsy when you add nested structures to the equation |
| 21:51 | `szx_ | in my case i don't even have an id, it's really just the index of the line/train within their vector |
| 21:51 | `szx_ | which feels even more awkward |
| 21:55 | muhoo | huh, i had no problem cheating by making an externs just by taking the library and stripping out all the code, just leaving the function declarations, boom, instant externs |
| 21:56 | muhoo | which is what that post basically says, doh |
| 22:00 | tmciver | `szx_: not sure exactly what your problem is but update-in is what you'd use to update a nested structure. |
| 22:01 | `szx_ | tmciver: right, but i first have to find the right thing to update |
| 22:01 | `szx_ | tmciver: i don't know what i'm going to update until i've iterated through all entities |
| 22:05 | `szx_ | tmciver: for example, how would you find the entity (train) closest to the current mouse position and make a change to it? |
| 22:06 | tmciver | `szx_: hmm, maybe something like (update-in your-data-map [:lines :trains] f) where f would take the vector of trains and return a new vector with the closest one updated. |
| 22:07 | `szx_ | tmciver: but it's the closest one across all lines |
| 22:10 | `szx_ | tmciver: f only "sees" some of the trains (the ones on that line) |
| 22:10 | tmciver | `szx_: I think you'd have to do some 'pre-processing' to figure out what the update-in key vector was supposed to be. e.g., [:lines 3 :trains 2]. You'd have to have some functions that determined that you needed line 3 and train 2. |
| 22:11 | `szx_ | tmciver: right, that's the direction i was going in, but then i end up with code that looks like this: |
| 22:11 | `szx_ | (map-indexed #(map-indexed (partial vector %1) (:trains %2)) (:lines @world)) |
| 22:15 | `szx_ | i just feel like there's a better way, but maybe there isn't. |
| 22:19 | tmciver | Not sure what a better way would be but I prefer to be explicit so I would probably write a function that was something like 'keys-to-closest-train' that you could then use as input to update-in. |
| 22:20 | `szx_ | well... nested atoms but that's a big no no |
| 22:20 | tmciver | `szx_: also, AmandaC might have been talking about this talk: http://www.chris-granger.com/2013/01/24/the-ide-as-data/ |
| 22:23 | `szx_ | tmciver: thanks, i'll take a look |
| 22:25 | AmandaC | tmciver: yeah the video in the top line of that post is what I saw |
| 22:53 | gfredericks | where do the 500 pages w/ stacktraces that I normally see in compojure apps come from? |
| 22:54 | michaniskin | well, a mommy and a daddy love each other very much, and then a stork comes… |
| 22:55 | michaniskin | sorry, disregard me |
| 22:55 | pdk | huge stacktraces are the product of framework orgies |
| 22:55 | pdk | 50 software frameworks stacked on top of each other makes for extremely deep call chains |
| 22:58 | amalloy | gfredericks: i think it might even be ring |
| 22:58 | amalloy | pdk: you misread the question |
| 22:59 | amalloy | he's not asking why they're 500 pages long, he's asking who's responsible for rendering a stacktrace as a 500 error |
| 22:59 | pdk | ohh |
| 22:59 | pdk | http 500 |
| 23:00 | gfredericks | amalloy: the jetty adapter isn't doing it |
| 23:00 | gfredericks | I don't see any obvious namespaces in ring.middleware.* |
| 23:01 | muhoo | i simply do not want to make a mental picture of a "framework orgy" |
| 23:02 | muhoo | all kinds of people's opinionatated and brittle models of the world, getting ugly in a dimly-lit room |
| 23:03 | amalloy | gfredericks: https://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/blob/6b8d49196a1d4dd254e7905d63c19c7f5729439d/ring-devel/src/ring/middleware/stacktrace.clj |
| 23:03 | muhoo | abstractions that don't fit together at all... ok that's enough. |
| 23:06 | gfredericks | amalloy: ah ha; ring-devel; cool thanks |
| 23:06 | amalloy | gfredericks: fwiw, i found that by searching within the ring github repo for "try" |
| 23:08 | gfredericks | haha |
| 23:08 | gfredericks | clever |
| 23:22 | eraserhd | Does core.logic not already have a goal for an arbitrary sequence of any length? |
| 23:29 | amalloy | eraserhd: i don't see one |
| 23:29 | felixflores | I'm trying to work through the Reasoned Schemer book, and in one of examples they use `pair? |
| 23:30 | felixflores | is this not defined in core.logic? |
| 23:31 | eraserhd | felixflores: hrmm.. |
| 23:32 | amalloy | it's a little unpleasant to write, because of nil/(), but i think something like (defn seqo [x] (conde [(emptyo x)] [(nilo x)] [(fresh [a d] (conso a d x))])) |
| 23:32 | felixflores | it says unable to resolve symbol: pair? |
| 23:32 | amalloy | you might only need one of those two clauses, i'm not really sure |
| 23:32 | amalloy | felixflores: that's probably the scheme primitive to test if something is a cons cell |
| 23:33 | eraserhd | amalloy: Why account for nil? |
| 23:34 | eraserhd | ,(require 'clojure.core.logic) |
| 23:34 | clojurebot | #<FileNotFoundException java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/core/logic__init.class or clojure/core/logic.clj on classpath: > |
| 23:34 | amalloy | because you can cons onto it to get a non-empty collection |
| 23:34 | felixflores | the funny thing is in https://github.com/candera/reasoned-schemer/blob/master/src/reasoned_schemer/chapter2.clj, they use it |
| 23:34 | felixflores | without defining it |
| 23:35 | amalloy | well i did just say, felixflores, that it's a scheme primitive |
| 23:35 | amalloy | clojure programs use functions like 'first without defining them, because they're part of the language |
| 23:35 | amalloy | oh, but that's clojure |
| 23:36 | amalloy | they're importing it from other code they wrote: https://github.com/candera/reasoned-schemer/blob/master/src/reasoned_schemer/core.clj |
| 23:36 | eraserhd | felixflores: You can probably define it like this: (defn pair? [x] (= clojure.core.logic.LCons (class x))) |
| 23:39 | felixflores | ah! thanks amalloy |
| 23:39 | felixflores | how could have I missed that |
| 23:56 | danielszmulewicz | I'm trying use org.clojure/core.memoize (the fogus library), but I get an exception No such var: cache/through |
| 23:56 | danielszmulewicz | I saw it came up before |
