#clojure – 2014-03-11

2014-03-11

00:18	noprompt	any thoughts on creating a macro which targets clj/cljs w/ cljx that needs to return a reified instance of clojure.lang.IFn/IFn?
00:18	noprompt	anyone?
00:18	noprompt	lol
00:18	clojurebot	anyone is anybody
00:33	seangrove	Hrm, I'm not sure that gridstylesheets are a 100% clear win. Seems like they definitely have the potential to be, but are missing a few things first
00:34	noprompt	seangrove: they're definitely more complex, if i'm thinking the same thing your talking about.
00:34	seangrove	noprompt: http://gridstylesheets.org
00:34	seangrove	Hands-down better than css at layout, but it's unclear how to handle some of the dynamic parts
00:35	noprompt	ok i think that's different from what i was thinking.
00:36	noprompt	i did some work on a very sophisticate layout system which used a font-size/line-height scale which generated a grid.
00:36	noprompt	it was meant to be used as a layout system.
00:37	seangrove	noprompt: undoubtedly a good idea for you to checkout gss, the idea is certainly very interesting
00:37	seangrove	And it's right up your alley. Add some core.logic to garden, some accelerated 3d transforms, and boom :)
00:37	noprompt	seangrove: i've bookmarked it and will definitely give it a look.
00:38	noprompt	fwiw i used to work for a newspaper and there was just a ton of brilliant ideas in all the old books they had laying around.
00:38	noprompt	i never understood why the same attention to detail in print never made it to the web.
00:39	noprompt	it's like the web came along and suddenly everyone when "well, this completely different so forget everything we've learned over the passed 100 years"
00:39	noprompt	s/when/went
00:39	noprompt	better yet a 1000 years.
00:40	seangrove	bbloom_: Any thoughts on the constraints system in OSX now? GSS is based off of that, seems clever, much better aligned with app design
00:40	noprompt	seangrove: the amazing thing about clojure is that now there's actually a very good opportunity to build extrodinarily complex layouts.
00:41	noprompt	stuff that you simply could/would not do w/ sass/haml/etc.
00:41	seangrove	noprompt: How so?
00:41	noprompt	seangrove: because you can unify both systems with protocols.
00:44	noprompt	seangrove: imho, while scss/less are great tools they're not powerful enough to build the kinds of systems you could build with a real programming language.
00:44	seangrove	noprompt: I'm pretty curious about it
00:44	seangrove	Any example specifically?
00:45	noprompt	for example w/ a reified object/datatype you can implement various protocols that express how to render itself in different contexts.
00:45	noprompt	seangrove: look at newspaper design. it's very complex.
00:46	seangrove	noprompt: I'm more interested in app design, rather than newspaper design
00:46	noprompt	seangrove: definitely.
00:46	seangrove	CSS isn't very good at handling app design, to say the least
00:46	noprompt	it's not, but it can be if you program it.
00:47	noprompt	iow, w/ garden you can build better abstractions that express what you want in html/css.
00:47	noprompt	app design or newspaper design.
00:47	noprompt	whatever design.
00:47	noprompt	ddellacosta: i'll take that as a complement. :)
00:48	seangrove	noprompt: Let me know what you think about gss, it's certainly up there with what you're talking about
00:48	seangrove	The documentation is lacking, but the ideas are solid
00:48	ddellacosta	noprompt: I've just always taken the opposite approach, which is to touch CSS as little as possible...but what are ya gonna do, it's there and it's not going away.
00:48	bufferloss	so my dates are coming out obviously in a "different timezone" than UTC, which my database is set to UTC
00:48	seangrove	ddellacosta: Use gss :P
00:48	ddellacosta	I mean, I'm not a designer or a front-end layout person, I just pretend to be one.
00:48	Raynes	My approach to dealing with CSS has always been to write CSS.
00:48	bufferloss	any way to prevent this? I've done some googling but nothing particularly satisfies the answer
00:48	bufferloss	er, the question?
00:48	ddellacosta	Raynes: :-P
00:49	noprompt	Raynes: you haven't written enough then. ;)
00:49	bufferloss	CSS3 is pretty much fine
00:49	bufferloss	SASS ftw
00:49	bufferloss	not having to deal with IE ftw
00:49	Raynes	noprompt: You lookin' for a paddlin
00:49	ddellacosta	let's all just acknowledge the elephant in the room, it's not CSS, it's the f*ing browsers
00:49	noprompt	Raynes: bring it. ;P
00:49	seangrove	ddellacosta: ? It's certainly css.
00:49	Raynes	noprompt: Brb packing my car.
00:49	noprompt	ddellacosta: yeah, i'm with seangrove on this one.
00:50	seangrove	ddellacosta: http://gridstylesheets.org/guides/ccss/
00:50	ddellacosta	seangrove, noprompt: yeah, do you guys write CSS to support IE8? Like, all features, across your apps?
00:50	noprompt	i guess i'm biased.
00:51	ddellacosta	whenever someone throws a framework at me I'm just like...whatever. Doesn't change anything.
00:51	noprompt	in the past i've written large scss projects 3K-6K lines, i don't belive preprocessors are the future. period.
00:51	seangrove	ddellacosta: Nope. But even once you're passed that, CSS is a hurdle to overcome in writing apps
00:51	noprompt	why would i want @for i through j when i could have (map some-fn (range i j))
00:51	ddellacosta	seangrove: right, I'm just saying, I'm not past that and a lot of folks aren't. I don't have the luxury of thinking of CSS in the terms that you guys are talking about it now.
00:52	noprompt	why wouldn't i want macros?
00:52	noprompt	like this: http://noprompt.github.io/clojurescript/2014/02/10/media-query-breakpoints-with-garden.html
00:52	Raynes	noprompt: Dear God, the fancy.
00:52	Raynes	It burns.
00:53	noprompt	and as soon as i finish converting the sass parse tree to scss, i can use whatever's out there.
00:53	noprompt	sorry "to clj"
00:53	ddellacosta	noprompt, seangrove: I mean, granted, I'm writing for the enterprise, solely web-based apps. It's a different world than someone who is trying to write a system for up-to-date desktop and mobile browsers.
00:53	noprompt	Raynes: just a theme bro. lots of 20's inspiration.
00:53	noprompt	lol
00:54	noprompt	ddellacosta: this is true.
00:54	noprompt	my whole point is that CSS is awful. SCSS is an improvement, sure, but that's all it is.
00:55	ddellacosta	noprompt: well, then we are in agreement.
00:55	noprompt	call me a smug lisp weenie, but i'd rather write my own language that abstracts all the CSS horse shit away and live in my ivory tower than write that.
00:56	noprompt	if anyone gave a damn i'd do kickstarter! LMAO!!!
00:56	noprompt	hell i'll throw in type safety! cc/ ambrosebs
00:57	ddellacosta	noprompt: I'm totally down with that. But what I'd really like is some system that let me use css3 transitions transparently across browsers, handling all the shimming and whatnot. That's the kind of crap I get stuck on consistently.
00:57	noprompt	seangrove: but looking at what your working on, hey go w/ what you know, make the damn thing work. then get fancy.
00:57	noprompt	ddellacosta: that's the whole idea! :)
00:57	seangrove	noprompt: This is fancy
00:57	ddellacosta	noprompt: then give it to me
00:58	seangrove	noprompt: But, check out constraint-based layout systems and compiling them to css/js runtime, and tell me what you can do with it in garden ;)
00:58	seangrove	That'd be fantastic
00:58	Raynes	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zplc4Ienkws
00:58	seangrove	That's almost certainly a much bigger opportunity
00:58	noprompt	guys, i was watching a lot of BoardWalk Empire and browsing http://www.jugend-wochenschrift.de/index.php?id=25
00:58	ddellacosta	Raynes: that looks creepy I ain't clickin
00:58	Raynes	ddellacosta: It's a song.
00:58	seangrove	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47-xxp02PFg
00:58	ddellacosta	noprompt: pretty
00:59	Raynes	No creepies.
00:59	noprompt	my whole house is gonna end up looking like an art deco time machine.
00:59	ddellacosta	Reba!
01:00	bufferloss	how can I accomlish something like this with condp
01:00	bufferloss	,(let [value 2] (if (> value 2) "foo" (if (< value 2) "bar" "baz")))
01:00	noprompt	seangrove: it'll take time. no one really shares the vision i have and it's hard to find anyone who wants to be an active contributor.
01:00	clojurebot	"baz"
01:01	noprompt	seangrove: writing new code takes time and thought. improving the compiler each time is a big effort.
01:01	seangrove	noprompt: Definitely. It's a pretty huge system you're working on
01:01	noprompt	seangrove: not to mention ensure i can support both cljs and clj.
01:02	noprompt	i mean if i could just find one or two solid guys/gals who could give me a few hours a week that'd be awesome.
01:02	noprompt	and ddellacosta, i could deliver on that promis.
01:03	noprompt	(deliver that-promise "d-d-d-deliver that promise yo")
01:03	ddellacosta	noprompt: :-)
01:05	noprompt	ddellacosta: i did tell you about thorn right? https://github.com/noprompt/thorn
01:05	noprompt	ddellacosta: css->clj is almost done w/ the exception of media queries.
01:05	noprompt	ddellacosta: then the hard part scss->clj.
01:05	ddellacosta	noprompt: I was eavesdropping the other day right when you were talking about it with bbloom actually. :-O
01:05	ddellacosta	noprompt: very cool stuff, I gotta say.
01:06	noprompt	ddellacosta: it was actually pretty easy once i figured out the right ruby spells.
01:06	ddellacosta	noprompt: yeah, it's kind of crazy the stuff you can do with the JVM huh?
01:07	noprompt	ddellacosta: it's incredible. i kept telling my coworker how amazed i was for like an hour on/off.
01:08	seangrove	ddellacosta: Worth checking out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouzAPLaFO7I for an idea
01:08	ddellacosta	seangrove: will do, after I listen to this Reba song Raynes dropped on us
01:10	mskoud	Anyone who can help me with this: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/22316854/clojure-nested-maps-path
01:12	ddellacosta	mskoud: you'll make it easier on yourself if you can make :children contain maps vs. vectors
01:13	ddellacosta	mskoud: for example
01:13	ddellacosta	,(def x {:name "A", :id 1, :children {2 {:name "B", :id 2, :children []} 3 {:name "C", :id 3, :children {4 {:name "D", :id 4, :children {}}}}}})
01:13	clojurebot	#'sandbox/x
01:13	ddellacosta	mskoud: then you can do stuff like
01:14	ddellacosta	(get-in x [:children 3 :children])
01:14	ddellacosta	whoops
01:14	ddellacosta	,(get-in x [:children 3 :children])
01:14	clojurebot	{4 {:name "D", :id 4, :children {}}}
01:14	ddellacosta	mskoud: and
01:14	ddellacosta	,(update-in x [:children 3 :children 4 :name] "E")
01:14	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
01:14	ddellacosta	er
01:14	ddellacosta	,(assoc-in x [:children 3 :children 4 :name] "E")
01:14	clojurebot	{:name "A", :id 1, :children {2 {:name "B", :id 2, :children []}, 3 {:name "C", :id 3, :children {4 {:name "E", :id 4, :children {}}}}}}
01:15	ddellacosta	etc.
01:15	mskoud	ok, thx ddellacosta, will try to explore this, sounds resonable!
01:15	ddellacosta	mskoud: :-)
01:20	mskoud	it better but i still miss an index where i can lookup any id , independent of level/depth.
01:22	mosber	/join #incanter
01:29	ddellacosta	mskoud: how so?
01:30	mskoud	Getting a record like this is ok (get-in @x [:children 3 :children 4]) , but i do not know which child element its in. Just need to get the element with :id 4 , know knowing where it is. Maybee i should build some sort of index.
01:32	TravisD	mskoud: Are you searching through the tree to find an element, and return the path to it?
01:32	ddellacosta	mskoud: well, in that case I would just make it into a binary tree or something to be able to search easily on the ids, assuming they are unique.
01:33	mskoud	TravisD : Yes, thats right. And the id's are unique
01:39	amalloy	ddellacosta: don't roll your own binary search tree, just use a map
01:39	noprompt	dammit. i think i'm actually gonna have to generate the clj/cljs code and cp/pst it into the file.
01:39	noprompt	:\|
01:39	ddellacosta	amalloy: is it still efficient then to find nodes by id when you don't know where the node is?
01:40	amalloy	huh? just one map of id->thing
01:40	ddellacosta	amalloy: I don't know how you'd do it without iterating through each branch, if your nodes aren't structured at all.
01:40	ddellacosta	right; see the above conversation for context
01:40	TravisD	If the data is not already in a nice structure, you cant avoid doing a naive search through the tree
01:44	noprompt	oh duh, just import the clojure.lang.* stuff.
01:44	noprompt	that was easy.
01:44	ddellacosta	heh
01:46	ddellacosta	amalloy: while I think mskoud needs some kind of structure it's hard to know what (probably not a binary search tree actually), but since the nodes have parent/child relationships to each other doesn't seem like a flat map would suffice. Would be interested to hear why that is not the case though.
01:47	amalloy	ddellacosta: what i mean is, if the current hierarchy he has is important to him, then converting it to a binary search tree doesn't make any sense; and if he just needs an index to look up "something" by id, then a map is all he needs
01:47	ddellacosta	amalloy: right, gotcha...so he'd keep the index somewhere else.
01:49	mskoud	so keep the structure a plain map instead of a nested?
01:58	amalloy	mskoud: presumably the structure of the nested map matters to you, so you can't just throw it away. but you can additionally maintain a flat map of id->path or something, which you use to make operations faster
01:59	mskoud	yes, that would be a good way to go. Any hint to how to create such a map.
02:00	akhudek	mskoud: iterate over the entire tree and build the map as you go
02:01	akhudek	of course, if you need to update the tree, you'll have to remember to update the map too
02:45	sid_	Hi there, I'm trying to use pulsar library in my project, but I'm getting this error:
02:45	sid_	(use 'co.paralleluniverse.pulsar.actors) Initializing core.typed ... Loading Clojurescript... Clojurescript found and loaded. Initializing cljs.core NullPointerException clojure.core/deref-future (core.clj:2108)
02:45	sid_	I've added the dependencies in my project.clj file.
02:46	sid_	can anyone please help
02:46	sid_	anyone?
02:46	clojurebot	anyone is anybody
02:46	sid_	anybody? :P
02:50	sid_	I searched on google but couldn't resolve it
02:51	noprompt	sid_: maybe browse the issue tracker?
02:51	noprompt	i'm not familiar with the library, but you should do that or look at the stacktrace and try to figure out where the issue is.
02:53	dsrx	it looks like you're trying to load some mish-mash of clojurescript and clojure
02:54	dsrx	er, I may be misreading that error
02:55	sid_	Stacktrace got me this: java.lang.NullPointerException: null at clojure.core$deref_future.invoke (core.clj:2108) clojure.core$deref.invoke (core.clj:2129) cljs.analyzer$resolve_var.invoke (analyzer.clj:347) cljs.analyzer$resolve_var.invoke (analyzer.clj:308) clojure.core.typed.util_cljs$resolve_var.invoke (util_cljs.clj:40) clojure.core.typed.parse_unparse$resolve_type_cljs.invoke (parse_unparse.clj:585) cloju
02:56	sid_	I'm pretty new to clojure
02:56	sid_	what can I do to resolve it
02:56	sid_	?
02:57	noprompt	sid_: did you browse the issue tracker yet?
02:58	sid_	how can I browse the issue tracker? Sorry if this is a lame question
02:59	noprompt	sid_: i think the project is hosted on github -> https://github.com/puniverse/pulsar
02:59	noprompt	sid_: browse the open/closed issues.
02:59	noprompt	sid_: if you can't find something open a new issue or attempt to ping the authors here.
03:01	sid_	I'll do that. Thank you for your help :)
03:01	jph-	is there a way to get progress from java.io/copy?
03:01	noprompt	sid_: no problem
03:01	noprompt	sid_: also, if you're new to clojure it might help to learn the basics before jumping in to something like pulsar.
03:02	SegFaultAX	sid_: http://www.clojurebook.com/
03:02	noprompt	sid_: get a handle on things first. that'll help you debug problems faster once you're more familiar w/ the clojure landscape.
03:02	noprompt	just a friendly tip.
03:02	noprompt	:)
03:02	SegFaultAX	(inc noprompt)
03:02	lazybot	⇒ 7
03:05	sid_	Thank you for so much. I'm working on a web app and I encountered a situation in which I thought using actors would be a good. So I was going through pulsar and core.async.
03:05	sid_	Thank you so much*
03:05	noprompt	sure. :)
03:07	dissipate	how important is it to study reducers when first learning Clojure? http://clojure.com/blog/2012/05/08/reducers-a-library-and-model-for-collection-processing.html
03:08	noprompt	dissipate: it's not essential. you can get far w/o them.
03:08	dissipate	noprompt, do you use them?
03:08	noprompt	dissipate: i've been programming clojure for a 1 1/2yrs and haven rarely used thme.
03:08	noprompt	*them.
03:08	noprompt	dissipate: it just depends on what you're doing. but they're fairly easy to learn.
03:09	dissipate	noprompt, it just seems more and more stuff to learn!
03:09	dissipate	noprompt, do you think it is a good thing that the core is getting bigger and bigger?
03:10	noprompt	dissipate: just my two cents: learn about things so you know about them; solve your problem with the core tools; if you need more horse power use power tools.
03:11	noprompt	dissipate: i don't have a problem w/ that no.
03:11	noprompt	i've never found core to be bloated.
03:12	noprompt	and there's hardly any core function i didn't want or wanted improved.
03:12	noprompt	well except for for re-matches and re-find.
03:12	noprompt	those are terrible.
03:14	dissipate	noprompt, you use core.logic?
03:14	noprompt	no not yet.
03:14	sid_	hey noprompt, I'm actually confused what to do. I need to maintain sessions of 60 minutes on a click event for multiple users parallely. I thought on using actors that could revert with a message that the 60 minutes session is over and return all the computations done in the fiber. Would it be good to use puslar in this case or would you recommend using something else?
03:15	noprompt	sid_: i can't speak to pulsar. i've really only used core.async. if you're working w/ the browser i'd recommend that.
03:16	dissipate	sid_, what about Redis?
03:18	SegFaultAX	dissipate: I will say this about reducers: they are perfectly usable without understanding how they actually work.
03:18	sid_	noprompt, how would I join a thread in core.async for 60 minutes? Is there something in clojure or should I use java's join interop?
03:18	dissipate	SegFaultAX, well, that's good because Hickey's article has me confused out of my mind. :O
03:18	SegFaultAX	As long as you fundamentally understand the core functional operators map, filter, and reduce, you can defer learning how the library works for some time.
03:19	SegFaultAX	dissipate: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Clojure-Reducers might be a good extra resource.
03:19	sid_	dissipate, clj-redis-session?
03:19	SegFaultAX	Good analogies for gaining an intuition about reducers.
03:20	sid_	dissipate, I'm already using lib-noir to maintain sessions when a user login
03:20	dissipate	sid_, yep, looks good to me. https://github.com/wuzhe/clj-redis-session should be able to create a session in Redis with a 60 second timeout that any thread can access.
03:21	dissipate	SegFaultAX, thanks. i'm actually still trying to figure out how recursive functions with lazy-seq work. seems to be somewhat like Python's 'yield'
03:22	dissipate	sid_, (wrap-session your-app {:store (redis-store redis-conn {:expire-secs (* 3600 12)})})
03:23	SegFaultAX	dissipate: Reading the source is instructive. Lazy seqs are just chained continuations.
03:23	sid_	dissipate, wouldn't it be better just to join a thread for 60 minutes? I'm already using lib-noir to maintain user login sessions
03:24	SegFaultAX	dissipate: Each cell in the lazy seq is either evaluated (in which case its value is already cached and returned immediately), or there is a thunk which will yield the next value (which is immediately cached and the thunk destroyed)
03:24	dissipate	sid_, but Redis is probably more robust. you need persistence for something that lasts 60 minutes.
03:25	SegFaultAX	sid_: What does "join a thread for 60 minutes" mean? Thread.join(60 * 60 * 1000)?
03:26	sid_	like dispatch something like a future for 60 minutes and it should return back after the completion if those 60 minutes with all the calculated results
03:27	dissipate	SegFaultAX, this is confusing to me: https://www.refheap.com/56279
03:27	SegFaultAX	sid_: Join probably isn't the tool you want to use for that.
03:27	sid_	SegFaultAX, joining won't work. I'm pretty new to futures and agents. Does futures really work that way
03:27	sid_	?
03:28	SegFaultAX	dissipate: It's idiomatic to wrap the outer-most form in the lazy-seq to defer as much execution as possible.
03:28	sid_	completion of*
03:28	SegFaultAX	sid_: Do futures really work what way? I have no idea what you're talking about.
03:29	SegFaultAX	But blocking the main thread for 60 minutes waiting for a thread to return seems insane.
03:30	sid_	yup, my bad, joining would be bad
03:30	dissipate	sid_, you really ought to consider some kind of persistence for your sessions
03:30	SegFaultAX	sid_: So what are you really trying to do?
03:30	sid_	can you suggest something?
03:30	SegFaultAX	sid_: Can you describe the problem you're trying to solve?
03:31	sid_	I'm working on a web app, which provides user registration on it
03:31	sid_	after user registration, a user can start a new test
03:31	sid_	for 60 minutes
03:31	SegFaultAX	What's a test?
03:32	sid_	test as in any kind of test related to academics
03:32	SegFaultAX	Oh like an exam
03:32	SegFaultAX	?
03:32	sid_	yup
03:32	SegFaultAX	Ok, go on.
03:32	sid_	so i need to maintain a a session of 60 minutes for that test session
03:33	sid_	and at the end of the test, I need to add those results in the database
03:33	SegFaultAX	Ok
03:33	sid_	what would you suggest I should do?
03:34	SegFaultAX	Depends on the format of the exam.
03:34	SegFaultAX	Does the client send the user's response after each question?
03:34	sid_	yes it does
03:35	sid_	I'm pretty confused what to do
03:35	SegFaultAX	Does it need to be very exact? Down to the second?
03:36	sid_	no, I want to add the answers to the database at the end of 60 minutes
03:36	SegFaultAX	I mean the length of the session.
03:37	sid_	yes, the length of session should be exact
03:38	SegFaultAX	Ok, based on what you've told me I can think of a few ways to model this.
03:39	SegFaultAX	MVP might be a user table, a session table, and a response table.
03:39	SegFaultAX	A user has many sessions, and a session has many responses.
03:39	SegFaultAX	A session also has a start time and a duration (or end time, as you like)
03:40	SegFaultAX	The business logic is essentially "allow new responses to be inserted for this session as long as the session is still open"
03:40	SegFaultAX	Or you could always allow responses to be recorded, but only count those that were created within the session window.
03:41	SegFaultAX	You can easily provide an endpoint to query how many seconds are remaining in the session to update/synchronize the UI.
03:41	sid_	okay..so paralleslism doesn't come in if a lot of users are talking the test session at the same time?
03:41	SegFaultAX	sid_: Each user has their own session.
03:42	sid_	wouldn't that impact the performance?
03:42	SegFaultAX	sid_: There is also probably some sort of test table, and so a session belongs to a user and a test (it's essentially a join table with some additional metadata)
03:42	SegFaultAX	a) Don't optimize prematurely, b) no it wouldn't.
03:42	SegFaultAX	Since you can do an index scan on the join table by (user_id, test_id)
03:43	SegFaultAX	If you have a group of students taking the test together and that's a meaningful thing you want to capture, you could create a session group, which has many sessions.
03:44	SegFaultAX	Then you could ask questions like "which students took this test together?"
03:45	SegFaultAX	Anyway, that's just one idea for how to implement it.
03:45	sid_	so all the queries for an individual user has to go through what? a thread?
03:45	SegFaultAX	sid_: What?
03:46	SegFaultAX	What do threads have to do with this?
03:47	sid_	like, each question returns a question id and answers when going to the next question
03:47	dissipate	,(first (iterate inc 2))
03:47	clojurebot	2
03:47	sid_	I'll have to store those results somewhere?
03:47	SegFaultAX	sid_: As I said presumably you'll have some representation of a test.
03:48	sid_	would it be feasible to let an actor do all those tasks
03:48	sid_	and at the end of session just add those results to the database?
03:48	dissipate	sid_, you should store every single result the student gives in some persistent DB. depending on how important the data is.
03:49	SegFaultAX	sid_: Um, I don't feel like we're talking about the same thing.
03:49	dissipate	sid_, no, not at the end of the session, during the session, store everything the student gives you persistently
03:49	SegFaultAX	You're asking about actors and threads and I'm trying to help you conceptualize your problem.
03:49	sid_	I was thinking of storing those results in an atom
03:49	dissipate	sid_, why? store them in a DB or some persistent layer.
03:50	dissipate	sid_, you could do something like memcached or redis, with a mongodb capped collection for additional caching.
03:51	SegFaultAX	dissipate: Dude, what?
03:51	SegFaultAX	memcache, redis, and mongo all in one sentence?
03:51	SegFaultAX	sid_: Why don't you focus on getting a working solution first before you start trying to "optimize"
03:52	dissipate	SegFaultAX, why not? if memcached or redis go down, you still have mongo as a backup. but like i said, depends on how important the data is.
03:52	sid_	SegFaultAX, okay, so I'll do as yo usay
03:53	SegFaultAX	dissipate: http://i.imgur.com/f9bQXZA.png
03:53	dissipate	sid_, i don't see why you are getting into threading stuff. should be handled by your web framework.
03:53	sid_	when does atoms, refs, agents, futures come into picture?
03:54	SegFaultAX	sid_: When you require coordination, synchronization, or parallel execution.
03:54	dissipate	SegFaultAX, i'm not advocating mongodb as a primary database. but it can be used for caching IMO.
03:54	SegFaultAX	Which at this phase, you clearly don't.
03:55	sid_	so these test sessions aren't parallel execution. I'm sorry I'm a complete n00b
03:55	sid_	:/
03:55	dissipate	sid_, should be handled at the web server layer
03:56	SegFaultAX	sid_: Why don't you just start building the test taking part for now? Worry about all that other crap later.
03:56	SegFaultAX	I think it's better to nail down the core domain models and logic first anyway.
03:56	dissipate	SegFaultAX, DDD?
03:57	sid_	Thank you SeagFaultAX and dissipate for your help :)
03:57	SegFaultAX	DDD-lite
03:57	SegFaultAX	sid_: Good luck mate.
03:57	atyz	So I'm currently logging a couple of datomic entities. However there are several fields I would like to redact from the logs... Is there a nice way to do this?
03:57	dissipate	SegFaultAX, you a fan of Uncle Bob's 'Clean Architecture'?
03:58	sid_	I'll work on the model and than think about optimization
03:58	sid_	just out of curiosity, aren't test session a parallel execution?
03:58	atyz	(turning it into a map doens't work because something like (into {} entity) doesn't resolve components
03:58	dissipate	,(take 1 (iterate inc 2))
03:58	clojurebot	(2)
03:59	dissipate	,(first (iterate inc 2))
03:59	clojurebot	2
03:59	dissipate	very interestng
03:59	TEttinger	it is odd how iterate does that
03:59	TEttinger	0 calls, then 1 call
03:59	dissipate	TEttinger, what do you mean?
03:59	SegFaultAX	TEttinger: Huh?
04:00	TEttinger	,(take 5 (iterate inc 2))
04:00	clojurebot	(2 3 4 5 6)
04:00	SegFaultAX	The first value of iterate is the initial value.
04:00	pyrtsa	TEttinger: It's just like how (reductions f init xs) behaves.
04:00	dissipate	TEttinger, one evaluates to a list of 1 value, the other evaluates to just 1 value
04:00	TEttinger	0 calls to inc, 1 call to inc, 2 calls to inc... is what I mean
04:00	SegFaultAX	TEttinger: Why is that weird?
04:00	alew	iterate explicitly says it returns the inital arg as the first value
04:00	TEttinger	I just wasn't aware of other fns that acted like that until now
04:01	dissipate	TEttinger, that's how iterate works. f(f(f(x)))
04:01	dissipate	no?
04:01	clojurebot	no is tufflax: there was a question somewhere in there, the answer
04:01	SegFaultAX	dissipate: x, f(x), f(f(x)), f(f(f(x))).
04:02	TEttinger	dissipate, yeah I know, I just mean it is sorta a different way of thinking about the result is all
04:02	dissipate	alew, so why does 'take 1' evaluate to a list?
04:02	alew	what is with this odd notation of putting the opening paren after the function name
04:02	TEttinger	map doesn't preserve the base values unless you tel it to
04:02	dissipate	SegFaultAX, so why doesn't 'take 1' result in the value by itself?
04:02	alew	take always returns a lazyseq
04:03	SegFaultAX	dissipate: Because take is a sequence operation.
04:03	SegFaultAX	(take 3 (range))
04:03	SegFaultAX	,(take 3 (range))
04:03	clojurebot	(0 1 2)
04:03	TEttinger	first is similar to (nth coll 0), take is more like a subsequence
04:03	dissipate	,(first (range))
04:03	clojurebot	0
04:04	dissipate	SegFaultAX, gotcha
04:04	dissipate	SegFaultAX, that sieve function is quite clever then. it uses 'first' instead of 'take 1'.
04:05	dissipate	SegFaultAX, which triggers the caching mechanism? 'first' or 'take x' ?
04:05	SegFaultAX	dissipate: First always forces a value. take is lazy.
04:07	nonuby	enlive question, trying to figure out the selector syntax to match an element that has a data-section attribute but this is not equal to "homepage-section" I though [[(attr? :data-section) (but (attr= :data-section "hompage-content"))] would work but not so
04:08	dissipate	SegFaultAX, is it possible to have a collection that is not an 'iterable', and hence cannot have 'seq' called on it?
04:09	SegFaultAX	dissipate: If you created your own collection and didn't use anything built into Java, sure. But ISeq is extended over the base Java iterable types.
04:10	SegFaultAX	Not sure why you would do such a thing.
04:13	dissipate	SegFaultAX, i dunno. one thing i do know is that i thought Python was a clever language. Clojure (and hence Lisp) seems to be on a whole other level of cleverness. i can see why many programmers are repelled by it. :P
04:18	AmnesiousFunes	Is there a convenient way to test a nested data structure for circularity, i.e. including atoms that at some point reference themselves?
04:19	AmnesiousFunes	Or should I just check every node in a branch for identity with its ancestors?
04:23	SegFaultAX	AmnesiousFunes: I'm not aware of any built-in way to do that. Use the standard recursive approach.
04:27	AmnesiousFunes	SegFaultAX: Thanks.
04:45	dissipate	how is caching in a lazy sequence not a side effect?
04:46	SegFaultAX	dissipate: It is
04:46	dissipate	SegFaultAX, wtf. that's ridiculous.
04:47	lvh	dissipate: why is that ridiculous
04:47	dissipate	SegFaultAX, how can a core library function have side effects like that? the whole idea is to get rid of that.
04:47	dissipate	lvh, and is this caching done in STM?
04:47	SegFaultAX	Nope.
04:48	dissipate	i just don't see how this is consistent with the 'pure function' philosophy
04:48	lvh	dissipate: iteration functions losing referential transparency is a lot worse of a side effect than caching
04:48	SegFaultAX	The side effects are encapsulated.
04:48	SegFaultAX	It's similar to doing side effecting code in a transient for speed.
04:48	dissipate	SegFaultAX, what if i have one thread calling 'realized?' on a lazy seq at the same time i have a thread calling 'take x' on the lazy seq?
04:49	pyrtsa	dissipate: The caching is not done in STM but it is synchronized (see LazySeq.java if interested).
04:50	SegFaultAX	Yup
04:50	SegFaultAX	dissipate: In general, you don't need to worry about these things.
04:51	dissipate	pyrtsa, is there a version of lazy-seq that has no side effects?
04:51	pyrtsa	dissipate: You shouldn't write logic that causes side effects based on (realized? x). Only use realized? to check whether x was already realized.
04:51	SegFaultAX	lvh: Nice to see you on this side. :) Clojure is slowly pulling you away from Python.
04:51	lvh	SegFaultAX: soon I will be shipping 500MB uberjars that have clojure.core + jython in them
04:51	pyrtsa	dissipate: What would that even mean? Just make sure that the iteration only produces results.
04:51	pyrtsa	...without causing side effects itself.
04:51	lvh	SegFaultAX: core.async is nice and all but twisted is still a few years ahead if you want to write protocols :)
04:52	dissipate	pyrtsa, what it would mean is that every time lazy-seq is iterated through, a brand new lazy-seq reference is created starting at the point where it left off
04:53	pyrtsa	dissipate: As long as you keep the same head, the lazy-seq is only evaluated once.
04:53	SegFaultAX	pyrtsa: A thunk is only evaluated once*
04:53	pyrtsa	Thanks for the correction.
04:54	dissipate	SegFaultAX, python and clojure are 2 different languages with different use cases IMO.
04:54	SegFaultAX	pyrtsa: Same head or not, it won't do unnecessary re-evaluation.
04:54	dissipate	SegFaultAX, i wouldn't use clojure as a scripting language because the JVM takes too long to start up, for instance.
04:54	SegFaultAX	dissipate: lvh is very well known in #python, I was commenting about that.
04:54	pyrtsa	SegFaultAX: Indeed. Only if you call the function that creates a lazy-seq repeatedly, will it evaluate multiple times.
04:55	pyrtsa	*repeatedly call the function
04:56	dissipate	SegFaultAX, i see. i'm actually trying to get away from ruby, python, perl for medium/large apps, and use clojure instead.
04:56	SegFaultAX	dissipate: You and me both.
04:57	SegFaultAX	I'm trying to get away from Python and Ruby in general.
04:57	alew	dissipate: if you want to write clojure scripts, you could have clojurescript that runs on node.js :P
04:57	dissipate	SegFaultAX, but i see myself still using python etc. for scripting
04:57	michel_slm	dissipate: hopefully soon you can use ClojureScript for that
04:57	SegFaultAX	About 30% of my work is ops, and for that Python is perfect.
04:57	dissipate	alew, that's true, hadn't thought of that. :P perhaps i can escape entirely.
04:57	alew	SegFaultAX: checked out pallet?
04:57	SegFaultAX	But for application development, I've lost my taste.
04:57	SegFaultAX	alew: Hah, no.
04:57	chare	Clojure > Python and you know it
04:58	dissipate	michel_slm, clojurescript has been ported to node.js?
04:58	SegFaultAX	alew: I looked at pallet about a year ago. I have no idea how people are building stuff with it.
04:58	alew	dissipate: as for caching, it's referentially transparent so it shouldn't violate the purity
04:58	SegFaultAX	The documentation is horrendous and the code isn't particularly good either.
04:59	alew	SegFaultAX: it's really confusing mostly due to the docs
04:59	dissipate	SegFaultAX, i lost my taste before i even got into clojure. OOP just doesn't smell right to me. it is actually quite awkward in practice, and not really reusable.
04:59	alew	SegFaultAX: I know at least a few clojure companies that are using it
04:59	michel_slm	dissipate: I believe the newest version is now more Node.js friendly
04:59	SegFaultAX	I heard it was undergoing a complete rewrite or something, but that was like over a year ago.
04:59	SegFaultAX	What ever, boto and ansible work great.
04:59	dissipate	SegFaultAX, it's all about Rust. :P
04:59	alew	SegFaultAX: maybe you are talking about 0.8? I don't know what they are doing for 0.9 or 1.0 even
05:00	michel_slm	dissipate: aha, yes, you can -- https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/wiki/Quick-Start
05:00	SegFaultAX	dissipate: I have issues with some variations of OOP. I don't take issue with object orientation in the general sense.
05:00	dissipate	SegFaultAX, boto? that's good but for some reason it was really lacking for AWS Simple Workflow
05:01	SegFaultAX	dissipate: Use the CLI API for anything boto doesn't provide.
05:01	SegFaultAX	Or the admin if you want, but that's so ugly.
05:02	SegFaultAX	Wow is it 2a already? Sheesh
05:02	SegFaultAX	Night all.
05:03	dissipate	SegFaultAX, night
05:07	BartAdv	whoa, writing some recursive stuff in SQL. thinking all the time how datomic could ease my suffering ;)
05:20	anars	cemerick: pull request regarding the empty roles set is up as of yesterday. also with a few comments. just fyi :)
05:48	triyo	What are the key changes to Clojure since 1.3.0 release? I have an app that's been happily running 1.3 and I'm looking into if it's worth putting some time aside, sooner rather than later, to upgrade to latest stable release.
05:50	triyo	any links summarising this info would be useful.
05:52	dsrx	triyo: there's a changelog on the github repository https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/changes.md
05:52	triyo	dsrx: thanks started looking through that (history of changelog)
05:57	clgv	triyo: some very convenient threading macros: some->(>), cond->(>), as->
05:58	triyo	clgv: thanks, just saw those; added in 1.5. Very cool. Personally love the -> and ->>.
05:59	triyo	What was the main purpose of adding the reduces over standard map/filter/reduce?
06:00	clgv	triyo: clojure.core.reducers you mean?
06:00	triyo	*reducers
06:00	triyo	yes, sorry, typo
06:00	clgv	triyo: if so, then the main goal is parallelization of those operations
06:01	dissipate	triyo, they were added so that you would have to learn more stuff
06:01	dsrx	hickey's got a good blog post about them here http://clojure.com/blog/2012/05/08/reducers-a-library-and-model-for-collection-processing.html
06:01	triyo	weren't there pmap, etc.?
06:01	triyo	dsrx: thanks for the link
06:01	clgv	triyo: you cant parallelize efficiently with those lazy-seq based approaches. hence reducers
06:02	clgv	triyo: that's because lazy-seqs are inherently sequentially
06:04	triyo	oh I see, that makes sense.
06:04	pyrtsa	Not just parallelization, also stream fusion, AFAIK.
06:13	triyo	sweet `reducers/fold` (parallelize reduction)
07:15	CookedGr1phon	Is there a way to temporarily set how many s.f. (or d.p. would do) a float will print for a given pr-str
07:15	CookedGr1phon	I have some long vectors of floats which are all 0.30000004 etc and so I only really need to see the 0.3, but as it is, it scrolls off the screen
07:27	koalallama	,(format "%.2f" 3.14159)
07:27	clojurebot	"3.14"
07:28	pyrtsa	CookedGr1phon: clojure.core/pr (and thus, pr-str) uses clojure.core/print-method or clojure.core/print-dup depending whether print-dup is truthy. In both cases, when the value x is java.lang.Double, you'll get x.toString(). So no unless you can change the printing function, no formatting is possible.
07:30	CookedGr1phon	pyrtsa: I've done it before, so I know it's possible
07:31	CookedGr1phon	Just couldn't remember how
07:31	pyrtsa	See what koalallama wrote.
07:33	pyrtsa	CookedGr1phon: FYI, for both Double and Float (I don't know which you're actually using), 0.30000004 has a different internal representation than 0.3. That's why you don't see the rounding when converting to string.
07:33	pyrtsa	(Of course, neither 0.30000004 nor 0.3 are exactly representable as floating point numbers.)
07:50	CookedGr1phon	ah, this is all different for clojurescript
07:51	CookedGr1phon	need to extend protocol IPrintWithWriter
07:52	pyrtsa	Ah, of course. Nice to hear. :)
07:56	CookedGr1phon	doesn't seem to work if i extend that for floats
08:03	pyrtsa	CookedGr1phon: Just change the printing function, I'd say. Extending protocols that aren't your own for types that aren't yours is usually a bad idea.
08:17	CookedGr1phon	what do you mean change the printing function?
08:18	CookedGr1phon	I'm printing arbitrary data, some of which has floats, which might be nested as the values of maps inside vectors, I can't just map over this and print it myself
08:54	BartAdv	do you have some general tips how to find out why aot-compiled module gives InvalidArgumentException: argument type mismatch, whereas with aot turned off it runs just fine?
08:54	BartAdv	http://lpaste.net/3729188939110547456
09:00	BartAdv	ok, nevermind, found the answer
09:00	AeroNotix	what are people using for Icinga?
09:00	gvickers	BartAdv: what was it?
09:01	BartAdv	https://github.com/clojure-android/neko/issues/23#issuecomment-37291111
09:12	felher	hey Folks. Quick question: is there a default/standard logging library for clojure? A link to it would suffice :)
09:12	joegallo	clojure.tools.logging
09:13	joegallo	https://github.com/clojure/tools.logging
09:13	felher	joegallo: great, thank you :)
09:13	joegallo	you're welcome!
09:51	jlpeters	folks, should I be able to access session variables from within the repl within emacs (for debugging and such?). My process is to visit the file that requires noir.session, run C-c C-k to compile the file, then run C-c M-n to switch the repl to the right namespace. With that setup done (and the server started via the repl), should I be able to get and set
09:51	jlpeters	session values?
10:05	clgv	jlpeters: if those are stored in global "def"s (what noir did in most cases) then you should be able to access them
10:09	jlpeters	clgv: ok, I'll dig at it. I was getting casting errors which made me think I was missing a step somewhere Thanks!
10:13	felher	Another quick question: is https://github.com/bbatsov/clojure-style-guide a good resource for a beginner? Is it followed by most people?
10:31	gvickers	felher: I would say most of that is sound advice. I have seen most clojure code written in a similiar style. Although the necessity of that style guide is questionable, code seems to fall out like that anyway.
10:34	clgv	felher: well some rules in there are debatable
10:36	felher	Okay, thanks, to the both of you. :)
10:37	llasram	I really should fork that thing and update it for my team's style...
10:37	llasram	Except the last time I tried that, I had a huuuuge fight with a guy who wouldn't agree to any max column limit at all
10:37	llasram	s,that,something like that,
10:38	clgv	llasram: max-column-limit is always ones monitors width respective to the preferred font size ;) :P
10:40	llasram	I actually proposed we compromise and take the team median of that value, but this guy literally wouldn't accept any limit as being valid
10:40	llasram	And by "limit" I mean "general length to try to stay under, unless the code is harder to read unless you don't"
10:40	llasram	I'm not a monster :-)
10:41	szymanowski	hello, what would be the simplest way to overwrite the print-method dispatch function while keeping unchanged all methods?
10:41	llasram	szymanowski: print-method is a multimethod, so just extend it for a new type
10:41	llasram	Oh, you want to change the dispatch function
10:41	llasram	Huh
10:41	szymanowski	yes
10:41	szymanowski	i need it for some reason
10:42	llasram	haha
10:42	llasram	Any mode details on what you're trying to achieve?
10:42	szymanowski	certainly wrong reasons
10:42	llasram	s,mode,more,
10:43	clgv	llasram: ah that rule sounds not too bad with the ifs attached. well, some people just dont want to agree^^
10:43	llasram	szymanowski: I ask because if you aren't aware, print-method dispatches via `type`, which you can override for IMeta's by having `:type` metadata: ##(type '^:example some-thing)
10:43	lazybot	⇒ clojure.lang.Symbol
10:43	szymanowski	i've got this (with-meta {:a 1 :b2} {:type 'Foo}) and would like to add a custom print method on it
10:43	llasram	szymanowski: er, let's try again: ##(type '^{:type :example} some-thing)
10:43	lazybot	⇒ clojure.lang.Symbol
10:43	llasram	ugh
10:43	szymanowski	the thing is my type is a symbol not a keyword
10:44	llasram	That's fine
10:44	szymanowski	so it dispatch on the class
10:44	llasram	Despite my failure to have a proper example
10:44	clgv	,(type ^{:type :example} {:a 1})
10:44	clojurebot	:example
10:44	szymanowski	PersistentHashMap or ArrayMap
10:44	llasram	clgv: Thank you :-)
10:44	clgv	,(type ^{:type 'Foo} {:a 1})
10:44	clojurebot	Foo
10:44	llasram	szymanowski: So there you go -- just extend print-method for the symbol `Foo`
10:45	clgv	,(defmulti foo type)
10:45	clojurebot	#'sandbox/foo
10:45	clgv	,(defmethod foo 'Bar [x] (println "Bar:" x))
10:45	clojurebot	#<MultiFn clojure.lang.MultiFn@367342>
10:45	llasram	,(type '^{:type :example} some-thing)
10:45	clojurebot	:example
10:45	llasram	&(type '^{:type :example} some-thing)
10:45	lazybot	⇒ :example
10:45	llasram	Huh
10:45	llasram	what##(type '^{:type :example} some-thing)
10:45	lazybot	⇒ clojure.lang.Symbol
10:45	llasram	!!!!!
10:46	clgv	,(foo (with-meta {:a 1} {:type 'Bar}))
10:46	clojurebot	Bar: {:a 1}\n
10:46	llasram	Different evaluation processes for the lazybot's different way of giving it forms!
10:46	szymanowski	:)
10:46	szymanowski	thank you
10:46	clgv	llasram: patch it^^
10:47	llasram	If I have the time
10:47	llasram	I'm trying to chill out a bit more right now. Was working too hard for several months and got a bit burned out
10:50	clgv	oh ok
10:51	szymanowski	i don't really understand your answer, i don't want to create a new multifunction for printing my stuff,I would like to do it via the print-method multi, but the current dispatch function for it use metadata :type only when it is a keyword else it defer to the class of the object, the thing is my object metadata :type is a symbol
10:54	llasram	Oh
10:54	szymanowski	can i just grab (methods print-method) , then redefine print-method multi with another dispatch fun and then re add the originals methods after?
10:54	llasram	szymanowski: I'm sorry, -- I thought you were just mistaken. I really didn't remember that limitation
10:54	llasram	That's very strange
10:55	llasram	I seriously thought it just used the `type` function to dispatch
10:55	llasram	Hmmm
10:56	szymanowski	is there something like (add-method my-multi a-function) ?
10:58	llasram	Kind of... Trying something
10:59	Anderkent	szymanowski: uh, other than (.addmethod my-multi a-function) ?
10:59	Anderkent	but that's pretty much the same as defmethod
10:59	szymanowski	ok I suppose this is what I need
10:59	Anderkent	it's equivalent to defmethod, sorry, need to read back to see what you actually want
10:59	szymanowski	ok
11:03	Anderkent	szymanowski: so, I wouldn't do this ever, but you could in theory chnage the dispatch function on existing multimethod via java reflection
11:04	szymanowski	reflexion is arcane to me
11:04	Anderkent	buuut I'd rather just wrap print-method with a function of your own that changes the metadata on the objects that interest you so that the :type is a keyword
11:04	szymanowski	reflection*
11:04	llasram	Anderkent: It's final, so that might result in madness
11:05	llasram	Here's a probably-equally-insane approach
11:05	Anderkent	llasram: .setAccessible! XP
11:05	Anderkent	oh and
11:05	Anderkent	modifiersField.setInt(field, field.getModifiers() & ~Modifier.FINAL);
11:05	Anderkent	xP
11:05	llasram	,(defmulti print-method* (fn [x w] (type x)))
11:05	clojurebot	#'sandbox/print-method*
11:05	llasram	,(doseq [[dv m] (.getMethodTable print-method)] (.addMethod print-method* dv m))
11:05	clojurebot	nil
11:05	llasram	,(doseq [[dv dvs] (.getPreferTable print-method), dv' dvs] (.preferMethod print-method* dv dv'))
11:05	clojurebot	nil
11:06	llasram	(.bindRoot #'print-method print-method*)
11:06	llasram	,(.bindRoot #'print-method print-method*)
11:06	clojurebot	nil
11:06	llasram	,^{:type 'Foo} {:anything :at-all}
11:06	clojurebot	{:anything :at-all}
11:06	llasram	,(defmethod print-method 'Foo [x w] (.write w "<Foo on you>"))
11:06	clojurebot	#<MultiFn clojure.lang.MultiFn@cbab2>
11:06	llasram	,^{:type 'Foo} {:anything :at-all}
11:06	clojurebot	<Foo on you>
11:06	llasram	Haha!
11:06	Anderkent	;_;
11:06	szymanowski	great
11:06	Anderkent	...
11:07	llasram	szymanowski: OOC, are you using Abracad?
11:08	clgv	,1
11:08	clojurebot	1
11:08	clgv	,^{:type 'Foo} {:anything :at-all}
11:08	clojurebot	<Foo on you>
11:08	szymanowski	no i don't know Abracad
11:08	clgv	damn no separated sandboxes ;)
11:09	TimMc	clojurebot, why can't you be more like those scheme bots?
11:09	llasram	szymanowski: Just curious if that's where you were getting things with symbol `:type`s from
11:09	clojurebot	I don't understand.
11:09	clgv	szymanowski: my example showed you how to use the symbol
11:10	llasram	clgv: Huh? But it only works because I replaced print-method :-)
11:11	szymanowski	thank you again to all of you
11:11	clgv	llasram: what do you mean?
11:11	clgv	llasram: I just used a different multimethod for the example but showed dispatch for a symbol
11:11	llasram	Oh, I see
11:12	llasram	I misunderstand the referent of "my example"
11:43	gfredericks	augh now I think cider is doing (use 'clojure.repl) too
11:45	gtrak	gfredericks, cider has a lot of work to be done, come help!
11:46	gtrak	moving inlined code out is my jam.
11:46	gfredericks	but I don't know elisp
11:46	gtrak	me neither..
11:46	gfredericks	I just found nrepl-repl-requires-sexp
11:47	gfredericks	which duplicates functionality in reply, but I guess reply isn't part of the cider setup
11:47	gtrak	we have cider-nrepl, and we're in the process of re-implementing a bunch of stuff in a pure clojure backend. At some point, when it's ready, it'll be a requirement.
11:47	gtrak	a collection of nrepl middlewares and ops
11:48	gtrak	at that point, we can delete a bunch of elisp
11:48	gtrak	https://github.com/clojure-emacs/cider-nrepl
11:48	gfredericks	will this be sharable by `lein repl`?
11:49	gtrak	yea, I made a lein plugin for it, I'm using it daily.
11:50	gtrak	mostly I started working on it b/c completion for CLJS is impossible otherwise.
11:50	gtrak	or impractical..
11:50	gtrak	the inline code is unmaintainable.
11:51	gfredericks	yeah
12:18	gfredericks	fun problem: writing your :repl-options {:init (...)} code so that it composes under concatenation
12:18	gfredericks	I think ((comp last list) (do some) (init things)) might be the easiest way?
12:19	gfredericks	I guess there's no reason to return the last value at all
12:19	gfredericks	presumably nrepl ignores it
12:22	sdegutis	What's the use-case for higher-order Leiningen tasks?
12:22	sdegutis	My googling for it only brings up github-issues relating to it.
12:25	sdegutis	Is it mostly used for combining compilation tasks into a single one like `lein compile-everything`?
12:28	hyPiRion	sdegutis: to change profiles (with-profile), to reuse a lein shell (do) or to run with more perf/less memory overhead (trampoline) mostly
12:35	cbp	,(macroexpand '(-> x ((f a b))))
12:35	clojurebot	((f a b) x)
12:37	xsyn	How do you patch a live system through the repl?
12:37	devn	jump into the namsepace, redefine a function
12:39	devn	lol at the topic btw
12:39	devn	"top analysts expect this to be followed by newer versions with still higher numbers"
12:39	devn	reminds me of the "maths" "look around you"
12:39	devn	mathematicians think there may be even larger numbers...
12:40	xsyn	devn: that's it?
12:40	devn	xsyn: i mean, you can do that.
12:40	xsyn	yeah, I thought it would have been more complicated
12:40	xsyn	good to know :)
12:41	pbostrom	xsyn: you can also connect your editor to the live system, if you want to try to keep your source in sync with the running system
12:42	xsyn	so, if I'm running a system via lein, how do I tell emacs to attach to that system, does lein keep a port open or is that something I need to configure?
12:42	technomancy	xsyn: typically you embed an nrepl server in your application
12:43	technomancy	it's just a library you can add to :dependencies
12:44	xsyn	thank you kindly
12:45	technomancy	devn: oh man
12:45	technomancy	I just saw "look around you" over the weekend
12:45	technomancy	good times
12:45	devn	haha, yes
12:45	devn	the second season is not nearly as good
12:45	technomancy	shame
12:45	technomancy	have you seen Moments of Wonder?
12:45	devn	no!
12:46	technomancy	it is a treasure
12:46	devn	added to my watchlist.
12:46	devn	favorite episode?
12:46	technomancy	I think the one on Time probably
12:46	devn	bahahaha, omg, okay im sold, just watched 2min
12:47	technomancy	but they're super short and there are only five
12:47	rasmusto	relevant http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyd1XzGMxOQ
12:47	devn	"it's not like money, you can't taste it."
12:47	devn	"so, what is clocks?"
12:47	technomancy	"it will always be an unknowable mystery, like why the seasons change, or how telephones work"
12:47	devn	bahahaha. i love the accent.
12:49	dnolen_	noprompt: btw, are you actually pairing up Om + Garden?
12:49	noprompt	dnolen_: i've done a little bit w/ it but not much.
12:49	noprompt	dnolen_: thoughts?
12:50	TimMc	technomancy: The Look Around You DVD set is on my wishlist.
12:50	dnolen_	noprompt: no, just wondered if you had something that worked for you.
12:50	noprompt	dnolen_: the clientside story for garden won't be compelling until there's and API for the CSSOM
12:51	dnolen_	noprompt: i see
12:51	noprompt	dnolen_: i mean you can still generate inline styles with garden.core/style for complex CSS.
12:52	noprompt	dnolen_: but i really need help w/ the project.
12:52	dnolen_	noprompt: what kind of help?
12:53	noprompt	dnolen_: ideas, code, improvements, etc.
12:53	dnolen_	noprompt: ok the general kind :) I've been keeping my eye on it
12:53	noprompt	dnolen_: the big thing i want is to expose protocols instead of types and clean up the compiler so more advanced features can be added.
12:54	noprompt	dnolen_: duplicate code removal, etc.
12:54	noprompt	dnolen_: by all means if you have thoughts/suggestions please let me know.
12:55	noprompt	dnolen_: julian stepped up and patched the whole thing to support cljs.
12:55	noprompt	it was awesome.
12:55	noprompt	garden was also my first real clojure library so there's definitely some n00bish stuff happening in there.
12:56	noprompt	dnolen_: maybe i should open an issue that explains what my ideas are for the next version?
12:57	dnolen_	noprompt: I usually find wiki design pages better for that sort of thing.
12:57	noprompt	dnolen_: ah, great idea.
12:57	noprompt	tonight i'll collect my thoughts and do that.
12:58	dnolen_	noprompt: cool
12:58	dnolen_	will check it out
12:58	noprompt	dnolen_: awesome!
12:59	noprompt	the big thing would be advice on how to design a better compiler.
13:00	noprompt	right now it takes two passes.
13:02	noprompt	dnolen_: i'm sure you'll have plenty of folks to chat w/ but i'll be a clojure west if you have time to chat then.
13:02	dnolen_	noprompt: definitely
13:04	noprompt	dnolen_: honestly, my dream here is to have a unified system for frontend development.
13:04	noprompt	i think it's possible.
13:18	clgv	why do I need print-dup true in addition to print-meta true to get metadata annotations for symbols in printed output?
13:18	clgv	I do not care whether a PersistenArrayMap is used when reading that output back in, but I care whether metadata is restored as well
13:20	rasmusto	~+>
13:20	clojurebot	Huh?
13:21	jjttjj	I'm trying to use seesaw with very little experence with Swing. I want to basically have a table with values that are constantly changing according to an incoming stream of (a lot) of data. is it fine to be pulling from a core.async channel and just re-rendering the whole table on each new incoming piece of info or is there a way to render invidual cells of the table?
13:23	pyrtsa	,(binding [print-meta true] (pr-str (with-meta 'x {:tag :foo})))
13:23	clojurebot	"^:foo x"
13:23	pyrtsa	clgv: ^
13:24	clgv	well I use print-meta true
13:25	clgv	jjttjj: you probably will have to learn to write a custom table model since the one provided with seesaw.table might not meet your performance expectations
13:25	pyrtsa	,(binding [print-meta true] (let [foo ^:foo 'x] (pr-str foo)))
13:25	clojurebot	"x"
13:26	jjttjj	clgv: thanks! sounds fun
13:29	clgv	pyrtsa: to be specific it is :type metadata on the symbol
13:30	pyrtsa	clgv: Are you sure you managed to attach the metadata?
13:30	clgv	,(binding [print-meta true] (let [foo ^{:type :bla} 'x] (pr-str foo)))
13:30	clojurebot	"x"
13:30	pyrtsa	I'm saying adding metadata like that apparently fails for symbols. with-meta works.
13:30	pyrtsa	Don't know why.
13:31	pyrtsa	,(binding [print-meta true] (let [foo (with-meta 'x {:type :bla})] (pr-str foo)))
13:31	clojurebot	"x"
13:31	pyrtsa	Argh.
13:31	clgv	pyrtsa: yeah I checked I have symbol with :type metadata in a map
13:32	rasmusto	,(binding [print-meta true] (let [foo (with-meta {:not 'asymbol} {:type :bla})] (pr-str foo)))
13:32	clojurebot	"{:not asymbol}"
13:32	pyrtsa	clgv: Hmm, right. At least the print functions use the :type metadata if it's there. Didn't think they might strip it away, but that could explain.
13:33	pyrtsa	clgv: There: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core_print.clj#L75-L76
13:34	pyrtsa	So then, I guess the answer to the original question is: yes, you'll need to set print-dup to true if you want to have the :type metadata printed.
13:38	clgv	pyrtsa: humm I could fix it, since it does not need to be :type meta
13:40	k3ny	test..
13:41	k3ny	test..
13:45	RickInAtlanta	I was trying to see how the cljs.core.async.map function works, https://www.refheap.com/56399 I only get results 1,3 and 5. does anyone know what happened to 2 and 4?
14:15	amalloy	RickInAtlanta: (fn [& args] (apply str args)) is just str
14:16	cbp	what's an okish embedded database that i can use inside a clojurescript/node-webkit program
14:17	cbp	maybe i can use edn files
14:17	amalloy	RickInAtlanta: and while i've never actually written any core.async, i bet if you life the map out of the while, you'll get the results you want. that is, (go (let [c (map ...)] (while true (... (<! c)))))
14:20	RickInAtlanta	amalloy: Thanks, that worked
14:21	RickInAtlanta	amalloy: can you explain why it worked when I put the map into the let bindings?
14:22	amalloy	RickInAtlanta: well, it worked then because that's what you'd expect! instead, i'll explain why it didn't work in your original version
14:22	RickInAtlanta	or more specifically, why it didn't work when I called it directly in the go block
14:22	RickInAtlanta	:)
14:22	amalloy	when the map was inside the while, you were creating a new mapped channel in each iteration of the while loop
14:23	RickInAtlanta	DOH
14:23	RickInAtlanta	makes total sense now!
14:23	RickInAtlanta	thanks a ton
14:23	amalloy	core.async: reintroducing us to mutability problems we've forgotten how to deal with
14:24	RickInAtlanta	Yeah, you helped me fix not just that error, but the next 25 errors I won't get, because I will think about the channel's lifetime
14:28	bbloom_	(doc into-array) ; "type of the first value". ouch.
14:28	clojurebot	"([aseq] [type aseq]); Returns an array with components set to the values in aseq. The array's component type is type if provided, or the type of the first value in aseq if present, or Object. All values in aseq must be compatible with the component type. Class objects for the primitive types can be obtained using, e.g., Integer/TYPE."
14:30	amalloy	bbloom_: as opposed to what? walking over the array to find the least general type that can hold them all?
14:30	bbloom_	i assumed (into-array coll) was the same as (object-array coll)
14:31	bbloom_	been using it wrong for quite a while & probably have some subtle bugs around....
14:32	amalloy	bbloom_: i can certainly understand making silly assumptions (i do so all the time), but of course if that were true there'd be no reason for into-array to exists
14:33	hadronzoo_	What is the best way to pause a thread indefinitely?
14:33	amalloy	unplug your computer
14:33	bbloom_	amalloy: well the two-arity overload makes lots of sense... seemed reasonable to assume that the 1-arg overload delegated to the two-arg one... i just didn't expect it to effectively GUESS
14:33	bbloom_	i can see how that might be useful, but shit, burned me :-P
14:36	cbp	how do i use ex-info in clojurescript?
14:36	cbp	it doesn't seem to use the info map at all
14:36	amalloy	yeah, i suppose that's true. into-array's one-arg version is rarely useful
14:36	cbp	or gives me weird errors
14:36	amalloy	mostly it's only good for making String[]s
14:38	cbp	errors such as "has no method 'call'"
14:39	amalloy	cbp: paste a real error message
14:41	cbp	amalloy: err sorry my mistake. I was missing the throw
15:01	Pate_	Are there any large open source eCommerce systems currently being built in Clojure?
15:02	stuartsierra	Pate_: Yes, but I can't talk about them. :)
15:04	stuartsierra	Actually, here's one I can talk about: http://techcrunch.com/2013/10/02/staples-buys-runa-to-square-up-to-amazon-in-the-e-commerce-game-for-office-supplies/
15:04	Pate_	Clojure+Datomic seems like a great platform to build an open source eCommerce platform on and offer commercial support/plugins.
15:04	stuartsierra	Oh, you said open-source.
15:06	stuartsierra	I'm not aware of any open-source "platform" projects, but plenty of companies are building eCommerce systems with Clojure and/or Datomic.
15:07	Pate_	Is Runa built in Clojure?
15:10	stuartsierra	yes
15:11	Pate_	cool, (reading up on it). Runa's 20 odd peeps are now Staples Innovation Lab.
15:11	Pate_	Were you involved with that stuartsierra?
15:22	Frozenlock	Is there an equivalent of `map-indexed' for `for'? Or should I just use `range' like shown here http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/for#example_962?
15:24	TimMc	Hah, runa's jobs website is still malware-infested.
15:30	apetastic	anyone with experience using jax-ws with annotations in clojure? i've been able to get a web service up and running by using deftype in the vein of this: https://github.com/clojurebook/ClojureProgramming/blob/master/ch09-annotations/src/main/clojure/com/clojurebook/annotations/jaxws.clj but i'd like to expand on it and hang a @Resource annotation to get the WebServiceContext to do some basic auth and header manipulation
15:32	amalloy	Frozenlock: use range, or even use map-indexed if you want: (for [[i x] (map-indexed vector xs)] ...)
15:33	Frozenlock	amalloy: thanks
15:44	Anderkent	oh hey 1.6.0-RC1 is out? Should totally be the topic
16:06	jowag	Can anyb please give me a concrete example of where the java equals is broken wrt. to Clojure's equiv?
16:08	pyrtsa	,(.equals 1.0 (float 1.0))
16:08	clojurebot	false
16:08	pyrtsa	,(== 1.0 (float 1.0))
16:08	clojurebot	true
16:08	pyrtsa	,(= 1.0 (float 1.0))
16:08	clojurebot	true
16:10	S11001001	,(.equals nil "42")
16:10	clojurebot	#<NullPointerException java.lang.NullPointerException>
16:11	borkdude	How do I get a value from a cursor, so I can use it in a normal function, in Om?
16:12	indure	I am having the same problem described here https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/clojure/asEXM2uHyxw/aK4rrKOKs1YJ
16:14	indure	any thoughts on whats going on?
16:15	borkdude	got it, om/value
16:17	gfredericks	indure: my guess is the var version uses reflection, which picks the first method it finds at runtime
16:17	gfredericks	I don't think the inconsistency is a good thing
16:17	gfredericks	probably they should both error
16:17	gfredericks	there might be a ticket for this?
16:18	pyrtsa	indure: For getting rid of the actual problem, you should just add type hints, e.g.: (.submit ^ExecutorService pool ^Runnable f)
16:23	jowag	pyrtsa: thank you, so it is mainly an issue with numerics?
16:23	indure	gfredericks: thanks. I'll check if there's a ticket
16:23	indure	pyrtsa: will do
16:24	jowag	(inc pyrtsa)
16:24	lazybot	⇒ 3
16:26	pyrtsa	jowag: Numbers, collections and nil come to my mind first. To be honest, I'm not completely satisfied by the way Clojure treats equality and inequality either. But it's certainly better than in Java.
16:31	amalloy	for an example of where clojure's equality semantics are too permissive: ##(map (memoize pop) '((1 2 3) [1 2 3] (1 2 3)))
16:31	lazybot	⇒ ((2 3) (2 3) (2 3))
16:32	amalloy	in case it's not clear: (pop [1 2 3]) should return [1 2], not (2 3), but memoize sees that [1 2 3] is equal to (1 2 3) and returns the cached result
16:32	gfredericks	amalloy: "too permissive" meaning you have a specific idea for how = should behave differently?
16:32	pyrtsa	Good one!
16:33	amalloy	gfredericks: not really. just that the equality model has effects that are definitely surprising
16:34	gfredericks	roger
16:34	amalloy	haskell's approach is viable, in that you can't even ask whether two objects of different type are equal, but it wouldn't work at all in clojure
16:34	gfredericks	who wants to make a dependently typed clojure
16:34	pyrtsa	amalloy: Actually, pop should be two functions, pop-last for vectors and pop-first for lists.
16:35	amalloy	pyrtsa: i mean, i disagree, but even if we take that as a given, what about conj?
16:35	pyrtsa	Likewise.
16:35	tbaldridge	I'd love to have used the Haskell approach in school "are 1 and 1.1 equal" me: "you aren't allowed to ask me that question"
16:35	amalloy	assoc? lots of things dispatch differently across types that clojure considers equal
16:36	pyrtsa	Yeah, I know. The list goes on and on. But AFAICT, that would fix the problem with sequence equality.
16:36	amalloy	pyrtsa: that's basically advocating removal of polymorphism. cure seems a lot worse than the disease
16:37	pyrtsa	Ugh, I guess you're right.
16:37	tbaldridge	agreed, the whole idea that things that are equal must act exactly the same, makes no sense to me.
16:37	steckerhalter	how do find out why I get a stackoverflow after a few minutes?
16:37	gfredericks	Clojure is a monomorphic, concretely typed, single-threaded, one-variable language with message-passing nulls.
16:38	indure	pyrtsa: hints didn't help - still getting same issue
16:39	steckerhalter	I'm downloading xmls, parse them and write them to files. and it fails with a stackoverflow after it has been running for some time
16:39	pyrtsa	Btw, I'm stunned stunned that (compare [1 1 1] [1 2]) returns 1 in Clojure. If the implementation had been "compare lexicographically, like strings", inequalities could be extended to lists too. And order by length is almost never what you want.
16:39	tbaldridge	steckerhalter: perhaps one of you xml file is really deep?
16:40	steckerhalter	tbaldridge: no, they're pretty short
16:40	tbaldridge	steckerhalter: most of the time stack overflows are pretty easy to debug if you look at the pattern of the overflow.
16:40	pyrtsa	indure: Can you paste the source code and the error you're seeing somewhere online?
16:40	ToBeReplaced	tbaldridge: maybe (= 1 1.0) should be nil?
16:40	tbaldridge	there will normally be a cycle between a few functions, follow that path of execution.
16:41	steckerhalter	tbaldridge: ok, I will try
16:45	indure	pyrtsa: http://padfly.com/3323443344
16:49	pyrtsa	indure: Unfortunately, the ^Runnable tag won't stick to `#()` for reasons beyond my current knowledge. If you use (let [... f #()] (.submit pool ^Runnable f)) it will work okay.
16:50	indure	hm..strange - trying ...
16:51	tbaldridge	does it stick to (fn...)?
16:51	pyrtsa	I don't think it does.
16:51	pyrtsa	It doesn't.
16:52	indure	it doesnt
16:52	indure	I am losing confidence now
16:52	tbaldridge	I've experience this issue before.
16:53	tbaldridge	try moving .submit into a pool
16:53	tbaldridge	bleh, moving submit into a defn
16:53	tbaldridge	then type hint the args to the defn
16:54	pyrtsa	tbaldridge: That does definitely work. It's just another way to use symbols for the arguments, and to thus be able to type annotate the symbols in source.
16:55	pyrtsa	(let [pool ..., f ...] (.submit ^ExecutorService pool ^Runnable f)) is what I usually use.
16:55	tbaldridge	yeah that works too
16:56	pyrtsa	Being able to do Java interop is definitely Clojure's big upside. But not its second nature.
16:56	pyrtsa	(And shouldn't be.)
17:08	TravisD	how much of an impact do type tags actually have on performance? Do you get runtime error if a value of unexpected type is passed in?
17:09	TravisD	(I mean in clojure code, not calling java)
17:16	stuartsierra	Type tags are only there to prevent reflective method calls. They are neither coercions nor assertions.
17:22	splunk_	TravisD: check out https://github.com/clojure/core.typed if you're interested in static type checking
17:23	TravisD	Ah, I see. So there isn't any performance benefit?
17:23	TravisD	like, if I have some functions that are working on ints, and I tag them as such, they won't end up being java primitives or whateveR?
17:27	splunk_	it's a bit more involved than that to work with primtiives
17:27	splunk_	http://clojure.org/java_interop#Java%20Interop-Support%20for%20Java%20Primitives
17:30	splunk_	there's also a section on it in http://www.clojurebook.com/
17:30	TravisD	cool, thanks
17:51	Profpatsch	Why won’t recur bow to my will: http://i.imgur.com/FAn9tRV.jpg ?!
17:51	Profpatsch	Can’t recur at line …
17:51	llasram	Profpatsch: Because you're posting images instead of using rehfeap :-p
17:52	Profpatsch	Yeah, sorry. :P
17:53	Profpatsch	https://www.refheap.com/56584 Here ya go.
17:54	Profpatsch	I don’t see why this wouldn’t work.
17:56	Frozenlo`	Github down o_O
17:56	Anderkent	eh, probably is confused by go's state machine
17:56	Profpatsch	oO
17:56	Profpatsch	You mean a compiler error?
17:57	amalloy	well, an error in the go transformation macros? that certainly looks like it should expand into something in tail position
17:57	Profpatsch	Ooooh, it worked once I re-evalled the whole file.
17:57	Profpatsch	No idea.
17:57	Anderkent	wait what
17:58	Profpatsch	I think open-close-ui was a very old version, too, so I made it a stub. Maybe that was it.
17:59	Anderkent	(defn foo [x] (go (if (pos? x) (recur (dec x)) x))) fails for me
17:59	Anderkent	the exception comes from ioc macros too, rather than compiler
18:00	Cr8	(go-loop is shorthand for (go (loop
18:00	Cr8	recur is fine inside a go, it just can't cross a go
18:03	PinkPrincess	,(map (fn [f] (f 1 2)) ((juxt juxt juxt) + -))
18:03	clojurebot	([3 -1] [3 -1])
18:03	PinkPrincess	Imagine explaining the meaning of (juxt juxt juxt) to your mother.
18:04	mdeboard	PinkPrincess: Can you break down what's happening there
18:04	mdeboard	pls
18:05	gtrak	imagine explaining it to myself... :-)
18:05	mdeboard	gooby pls
18:06	PinkPrincess	Well... ((juxt juxt juxt) + -) returns two functions (of variable arguments) that will apply + and - to their arguments. I then map a function onto this sequence that'll call the "apply +" and "apply -" functions with the arguments 1 and 2.
18:06	PinkPrincess	But that may or may not make sense mostly in my own head.
18:06	amalloy	Anderkent: (fn [] (go (recur))) is clearly no good
18:06	danielszmulewicz	github crashed hard here. Anyone else noticed?
18:06	mdeboard	danielszmulewicz: yep
18:06	amalloy	you can't recur to the top of the function, you have to stay inside the go
18:06	mdeboard	danielszmulewicz: been about a half hour or so
18:06	danielszmulewicz	right.
18:07	AeroNotix	status.github.com
18:07	Anderkent	ah, sorry; didn't see it was go-loop rather than go
18:09	amalloy	status.github.com is so reliable. they should just host main github services there
18:10	AeroNotix	amalloy: alol
18:11	gtrak	i like how the octocat is red
18:11	gtrak	time well spent
18:11	danielszmulewicz	amalloy: lol
18:11	danielszmulewicz	gf3: ping
18:12	stuartsierra	Profpatsch: There have been some bugs with the `go` macro transformations and other macros such as ->
18:12	hyPiRion	amalloy: wasn't that like an actual, serious hacker news comment last time they were down?
18:12	amalloy	hyPiRion: probably. i certainly didn't come up with it myself
18:13	stuartsierra	hyPiRion: I saw it on a hacker news parody twitter account.
18:13	amalloy	actually i do wonder what the uptime of status.github.com is. is it actually 100%, or does it go down sometimes and nobody notices because it's not when github is down?
18:13	amalloy	yeah, https://twitter.com/shit_hn_says/status/421116237792284672
18:15	mr-foobar	Hi all, toying with om. It seems om's dom utils, does not have dom/input element. not sure why ...
18:15	hyPiRion	stuartsierra, amalloy: It's a reference to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7027040
18:16	hyPiRion	I don't know why I bothered to search that up
18:17	Profpatsch	stuartsierra: I guess the Clojure devs are human, too. :)
18:17	Profpatsch	Is there a good solution for waiting on document.readyState without using jquery in Clojurescript?
18:20	stuartsierra	Profpatsch: And core.async is still alpha. Channels are pretty stable, but the `go` macro still has bugs to be worked out.
18:20	mr-foobar	Profpatsch: put script tag at end of the body ?
18:20	Profpatsch	mr-foobar: Is that enough to make it work in every case?
18:20	harmspam	Profpatsch: (.addEventListener js/window "DOMContentLoaded" handler)
18:21	Profpatsch	What about readystatechange?
18:22	mr-foobar	Profpatsch: by the time the browser reaches the end of body, the dom is already there ... so you are good to go I think
18:23	pbostrom	mr-foobar: om does have an input element
18:23	Profpatsch	mr-foobar: Thanks, that worked.
18:26	mr-foobar	pbostrom: my bad. f'ed up. I was seeing https://github.com/swannodette/om/blob/master/src/om/dom.clj and I couldn't find input, so got confused ...
18:27	pbostrom	yeah, I think since input and other cannot have children they are not included in the macro file
18:29	mr-foobar	pbostrom: i was missing nil, (div/form div/input #js {....
19:03	Profpatsch	Is there something like clojure-toolbox.com for cljs?
19:03	TimMc	amalloy: I've seen status.github.com go down.
19:16	turbopape	hi people; I am try to loop recur over a map, but when I put a (dissoc map key) in the recur form, it seem to not change anything in the next loop iteration...
19:16	turbopape	any one can assist ?
19:17	hiredman	,(doc dissoc)
19:17	clojurebot	"([map] [map key] [map key & ks]); dissoc[iate]. Returns a new map of the same (hashed/sorted) type, that does not contain a mapping for key(s)."
19:17	hiredman	returns a new map
19:18	qbg	turbopape: code?
19:18	turbopape	ok
19:18	stuartsierra	Anyone ever seen `lein trampoline repl` cause "OutOfMemoryError: PermGen" when `lein repl` works fine?
19:18	turbopape	where can I post it ?
19:18	bob2	turbopape, remember you can't alter a map, just create a new map that differs in some way
19:18	bob2	turbopape, refheap.com
19:21	turbopape	here it is guys,
19:21	turbopape	https://www.refheap.com/56627
19:21	turbopape	thanks for help ...
19:22	turbopape	yeah bob2 , I'm totally aware...
19:22	bob2	what's in the map?
19:23	turbopape	something like { :k1 1 :k2 2...}
19:23	qbg	key is going to be a seq
19:23	bob2	from that code perhaps you want (map ) instead
19:23	qbg	,(take 1 [1 2 3])
19:23	clojurebot	(1)
19:23	qbg	that isn't what you want
19:23	turbopape	okay,
19:23	bob2	since you're just doing a thing to every key and returning an aggregate thing
19:24	turbopape	ok, but If I don't do a loop, I won't be able to get the aggrefate thing (result)
19:24	turbopape	If I map, I'll have the result for each key at a time...
19:25	qbg	,(let [keys [:a :b :c]] (zipmap keys (map (fn [_] "whatever") keys)))
19:25	clojurebot	{:c "whatever", :b "whatever", :a "whatever"}
19:25	turbopape	no actullay result is not just a plain zipmap ... I just simplified it here for the sake of the example
19:26	turbopape	I really need the loop to work plz :)
19:26	turbopape	I actually call a function depending on each key and recalling it on the result each time...
19:26	qbg	,(reduce (fn [m k] (assoc m k "whatever")) {} [:a :b :c])
19:26	clojurebot	{:c "whatever", :b "whatever", :a "whatever"}
19:27	turbopape	yes qpg, thank you, but result isn't relevant here... I don't want the result, I want the loop plz :)
19:27	qbg	,(loop [remaining {:a 1, :b 2, :c 3} res {}] (let [key (first (keys remaining))] (if key (recur (dissoc remaining key) (assoc res key "whatever")) res)))
19:27	clojurebot	{:b "whatever", :c "whatever", :a "whatever"}
19:28	turbopape	plz have a look on the new https://www.refheap.com/56627
19:28	turbopape	ok , thank you qbg :)
19:29	qbg	still could use reduce with your updated refheap
19:29	turbopape	yeah, maybe reduce after all...
19:30	turbopape	Thank you anyway, I sure owe you a lot in my path of enlightenment :)
19:33	turbopape	absolutely. Reduce !
19:41	mischov	Does anybody have any good resources on packaging javascript libs like react-cljs does? Trying to understand what is going on there.
19:53	TravisD	Can someone suggest a resource on zippers? Partly I'd like a tutorial but I'm also interested in how they work
19:55	amalloy	TravisD: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zipper_(data_structure) http://stackoverflow.com/questions/380438/what-is-the-zipper-data-structure-and-should-i-be-using-it
19:55	technomancy	wasn't there a conj talk on zippers a while back?
19:55	TravisD	amalloy: Great, thanks :) I suppose I should have checked Wikipedia.
19:58	TravisD	Hm, so in the list example, they have to reverse the list of elements to be added after the location in order to have efficient operations. Are there similar issues with trees?
19:59	Frozenlock	Is there a way to make cljsbuild only build a single `build' when using "lein cljsbuild test" ?
20:00	TravisD	Also, this business about types looking like polynomials and zippers being formal derivatives is pretty fascinating
20:05	amalloy	TravisD: well, "have to" reverse elements...it's just a different choice of representation
20:05	amalloy	just like when you make a queue out of two linked lists by reversing one of them
20:06	TravisD	Ah, yeah
20:06	TravisD	I am reading http://www.st.cs.uni-saarland.de/edu/seminare/2005/advanced-fp/docs/huet-zipper.pdf
20:51	camelCaseIsUgly	I have what is probably a dumb question: I have a lein project with two files under src/name-of-project- core.clj and view.clj. How can I load core.clj into view.clj? I've true doing (ns view.clj (:use core.clj)) but that raises a FileNotFoundException. I'm guessing there's something I don't understand about java's classpath. Can anyone help me out?
20:52	gfredericks	you want src/project/core.clj and src/project/view.clj
20:53	gfredericks	then (ns project.core) and (ns project.view (:use project.core))
20:54	camelCaseIsUgly	yep, that works. Thank you!
20:59	Profpatsch	oO, I can’t do (apply recur [thing1 thing2 thing3])
20:59	Profpatsch	Recur is seen as Var in my namespace. oO
21:06	TravisD_	Profpatsch: I think the issue is that recur is not a function, it is a special form
21:06	Profpatsch	TravisD_: Can you think of a way to do this?
21:06	Profpatsch	Hm, an unquote splice is not an option in Clojurescript code.
21:06	TravisD_	You could use destructuring: (let [ [a b c] [thing1 thing2 think3] ] (recur a b c))
21:06	Profpatsch	But not with arbitrary lists.
21:06	Profpatsch	Hm, wait.
21:06	Profpatsch	That wouldn’t make sense with recur anyway.
21:06	TravisD_	Profpatsch: Yeah, I think that is true
21:06	Profpatsch	Whoa, I can do an unquote splice in cljs functions?
21:06	bufferloss	does the (. Math pow arg1 arg2...) syntax work for "regular" clojure libs? i.e. not specifically java only libs, like clojure.java.jdbc ?
21:11	Profpatsch	bufferloss: If you mean backend-agnostic, then no.
21:11	bufferloss	not sure what backend-agnostic means, so... not sure?
21:11	bufferloss	Profpatsch, I'm not using e.g. clojurescript if that's what you are referring to
21:11	bufferloss	currently it's fairly "plain" clojure code
21:12	Profpatsch	Because you said not Java only libs.
21:12	Profpatsch	Everything is Clojure is kind of „Java only“ as long as you are on the JVM.
21:13	Profpatsch	Every JVM language can access every JVM library.
21:13	Profpatsch	If I’m not mistaken.
21:13	bufferloss	well I mean, that as far as I'm aware, clojure.java.jdbc won't exactly "run" in a regular Java program, that is to say, Clojure works with Java but Java doesn't really "work" with clojure (to my knowlege anyway)
21:14	bufferloss	so just wondering if clojure libs, being written in clojure I would presume work differently than Java libs "written for java"
21:14	Profpatsch	You can call Clojure constructs from Java.
21:14	Profpatsch	It’s not nice (what is), but you definitely can.
21:15	Profpatsch	Well, I guess jdbc interfaces with native (C/C++) libraries.
21:16	Profpatsch	But with Java and Clojure you stay on the JVM, so you can call everything available on the JVM.
21:16	bufferloss	k
21:16	bufferloss	so the clojure.java.jdbc has nothing clojure specific in it?
21:16	bufferloss	no features that I can use from clojure but not from java?
21:16	Profpatsch	Ah, that’s where you’re coming from.
21:18	Profpatsch	I haven’t used the clojure jdbc interface yet, so I don’t know.
21:18	Profpatsch	JDBC itself is just an API-Definition.
21:19	Profpatsch	That specifies how to access (relational) databases with Java.
21:20	Profpatsch	So to be compatible clojure JDBC has to comply with that API. But I guess they do use quite a bit of syntactic sugar.
21:21	bufferloss	also, like, I wouldn't likely expect to be able to just be writing regular Java and at a whim, mix the syntax of clojure on random lines into my Java program - the syntaxes are fundamentally different and, effectively, not "compatible" per se
21:21	bufferloss	so I was wondering if there was maybe some restriction on clojure libs being called, but it sounds like there probably isn't
21:22	bufferloss	and I should just go try it and see anyway
21:22	Profpatsch	No, especially the dynamic part of Clojure doesn’t play well with Java (lots of object casting necessary).
21:22	Profpatsch	What are you trying to do anyway?
21:23	Profpatsch	It sounds like you want to incorporate Clojure in a Java project.
21:25	bufferloss	nope, I want to stay as far away from Java itself as possible :P
21:26	bufferloss	also I'm not really doing anything special in reference to my original question, it was more of a syntax curiosity
21:27	bufferloss	what I am about to be doing is dealing with e.g. writing a record to a Postgres database with a separate date column and a separate time column
21:27	bufferloss	not sure how that's going to work in Clojure, but I've done it before in Java so actually I suppose it won't be much different
21:27	Profpatsch	jdbc Clojure is a very low-level wrapper around the Java stuff.
21:27	bufferloss	btw, what is an #inst() when it refers to some type of date object
21:28	bufferloss	cuz that's the default type that comes out of the database for both date and time columns
21:28	bufferloss	(using jdbc)
21:28	Profpatsch	If you go ti https://github.com/clojure/java.jdbc the first thing they recommend is to use a higher level wrapper to ease the pain.
21:30	Profpatsch	Korma looks useable http://sqlkorma.com/ .
21:31	gfredericks	bufferloss: #inst is probably just how the thing is printing; use clojure.core/class to find out what it actually is
21:31	gfredericks	#inst is not type-specific
21:32	Profpatsch	It’s like that with most Java libraries: Only because the Java world uses the same stuff they have for ten years there are way friendlier solutions in Clojure.
21:32	Profpatsch	That don’t make you scream in agony.
21:34	bufferloss	ok
21:35	bufferloss	yeah jdbc is painful :(
21:35	bufferloss	but, also fast
21:35	bufferloss	I guess, I mean about as fast as you can get in Java I would suppose
21:36	bufferloss	also, I tried grenchman yesterday, but got an error both times, the first time it said I had to run lein repl :headless from outside of my project root, which I did, and grenchman still failed to work with `grench lein run`
21:38	bufferloss	oh yeah, when I run: `lein repl :headless` outside of my project root and then attempt to `grench lein run` from within my project root I get "java.lang.Exception: Error loading project.clj"
21:39	Profpatsch	Wasn’t grenchman written in Ocaml?
21:39	bufferloss	I have no idea
21:39	bufferloss	why?
21:39	brehaut	yes
21:39	clojurebot	why is the ram gone
21:39	bufferloss	lol
21:40	Profpatsch	That was kind of a hurdle for me b/c on Arch it requires sever hundred MB of dependencies.
21:40	xuser	clojurebot: because java
21:40	clojurebot	Huh?
21:40	xuser	clojurebot: right
21:40	clojurebot	Pardon?
21:40	xuser	clojurebot: no
21:40	clojurebot	no is tufflax: there was a question somewhere in there, the answer
21:40	bufferloss	ok, so now I get "Unknown status:19namespace-not-found"
21:41	Profpatsch	But I have to say that I don’t really need Clojure to boot that fast, since I seldomly start a clj process.
21:41	Profpatsch	Normally you fire up your repl and that’s that for one productive session.
21:42	Profpatsch	Lighttable does it in the background so you don’t even have to think about stuff.
21:44	Profpatsch	For Clojurescript theres a Debian VM running with Vagrant, cljsbuild and a python server serving it inside tmux.
21:45	Profpatsch	So on finishing development just save VM to disk and start everything up again running next time.
21:48	bufferloss	woot, grenchman works finally, sweet
21:49	bufferloss	well, I happen to be working in a method/paradigm in which I am consistently/constantly invoking and re-invoking my current project from the command line
21:50	bufferloss	in the future I may build a web interface to trigger the run, but it's really a "science" type app that has no particular need of any such web frontend, only need of much crunching, very numbers, so maths
21:50	Profpatsch	So why not do that from the repl?
21:50	bufferloss	cuz it's not a text editor
21:51	Profpatsch	So why not write a function that reloads the file from the repl?
21:51	ddellacosta	bufferloss: can't you pull in whatever data you need via functions, and just re-run the thing in the repl?
21:51	ddellacosta	or, what Profpatsch said ^
21:51	bufferloss	Profpatsch, hmm, that might work
21:51	Profpatsch	It’s like, two lines.
21:52	bufferloss	I'm like, pretty noob to clojure, and I have a limited time to hack after my other coding day job, so... suffice it to say I haven't investigated many of the "finer points", though I'm quite interested in said finer points of clojure development
21:52	bufferloss	my next goal mainly is to learn more about how to structure my code properly into namespaces/packages/whatever-theyre-called
21:52	Profpatsch	(defn run-maths [config-file] …)
21:53	ddellacosta	bufferloss: making the repl central to your workflow definitely helps--I was doing the same thing as you with testing for a while until I learned my lesson.
21:53	bufferloss	ddellacosta, well, grench has just sped that up by a ton
21:53	bufferloss	but I'm still interested in how to do it in repl
21:53	Profpatsch	(run-maths (slurp "path/to/file"))
21:54	bufferloss	slurp, I like it, is that a real method? :)
21:54	Profpatsch	Or, as per preference:
21:54	Profpatsch	(def config-file "path")
21:54	ddellacosta	bufferloss: I also recommend taking a look at: https://github.com/stuartsierra/component and http://thinkrelevance.com/blog/2013/06/04/clojure-workflow-reloaded just for some ideas
21:55	bufferloss	ddellacosta, sweet thanks
21:55	Profpatsch	bufferloss: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/slurp
21:55	bufferloss	Profpatsch, excellent
21:56	Profpatsch	I can very much recommend the cheatsheet: http://jafingerhut.github.io/cheatsheet-clj-1.3/cheatsheet-tiptip-cdocs-summary.html
21:56	Profpatsch	It’s what I use all the time.
22:18	bufferloss	ok sweet I think I have the namespaces thing down now
22:18	bufferloss	time to check out this repl workflow y'all be holla' bout
22:19	bufferloss	was that appropriately hip?
22:19	bufferloss	does anyone actually use Maven for building clojure projects?
22:20	bufferloss	is there a benefit to using maven over leinengen?
22:22	bufferloss	last time I was working on a Java project I was using ant
22:28	bufferloss	Profpatsch, so, sorry but I don't entirely understand how the run-maths function is supposed to trigger my program
22:29	bufferloss	I get how to slurp theh program into a string, but then how do I cause that string to be run as a program? is there something like eval I should use? I thought eval was evil?
22:29	bufferloss	or is there something specifically for doing that, e.g. "running" or "loading" a file?
22:29	TravisD_	bufferloss: As far as I know, it is strongly recommended to use leiningen
22:29	TravisD_	I think it uses maven behind the scenes
22:30	bufferloss	TravisD_, ok, I am using leinengen, was wondering why anyone would want to use maven given that leinengen exists :P
22:30	TravisD_	bufferloss: Regarding loading a file, I think the recommended approach is to use the :require options in the ns macro
22:33	TravisD_	I wasn't following the conversation, though, so I'm not sure of the context
22:34	bufferloss	TravisD_, well Profpatsch was suggesting that I shouldn't invoke my program manually from the command line using 'lein run' every time I want to test a few new lines I've added
22:34	muhoo	TravisD_: AFAICT it uses maven repositories (remote and local ~/.m2/) but doesn't actually depend on maven or mvn binaries
22:34	TravisD_	muhoo: Ah, cool
22:34	bufferloss	was trying to make sense of his suggestion on how to go about doingi this
22:35	TravisD_	bufferloss: Hmm, it seems perfectly fine to me, or you could use a REPL to play with your code more interactively
22:35	bufferloss	all I see so far is (slurp) and I don't understand how to evaluate that string or how to in other words, reload and or re "require" the files in the project that have changed
22:35	bufferloss	I mean, I usually do keep a repl open but mostly for snippets that aren't much more than a few lines
22:35	TravisD_	bufferloss: I'm not sure I'd go that route
22:36	TravisD_	bufferloss: If you use emacs, you might want to check out cider. It makes a lot of this stuff very painless
22:36	bufferloss	k, grenchman seems to more or less take care of my previous gripe regarding the load time per script invocation
22:37	bufferloss	nodepad.exe for me :P
22:37	bufferloss	but, alas I fall short, because real programmers use butterflies
22:37	TravisD_	Ah, from the land of windows
22:37	TravisD_	Heh, M-x butterflies
22:37	bufferloss	nah, actually I am on ubuntu right now
22:38	bufferloss	some folks diss on the ubu, but it means I don't have to think mostly about my setup and I can just code
22:38	TravisD_	so.. you use notepad in ubuntu?
22:39	ddellacosta	wine has come really far
22:39	TravisD_	\me shivers
22:39	TravisD_	!
22:39	TravisD_	emote failure.
22:39	ddellacosta	ha
22:40	bufferloss	yeah I'm masochistic like that
22:41	bufferloss	sometimes I use regedit instead and send keystrokes by updating the registry
22:45	bufferloss	yeah, even (load-file) won't for example load any other files that are depended upon, so I'd have to load-file for every changed file
22:45	bufferloss	which seems sub-optimal, esp if and or when the project grows and has many files
22:45	bufferloss	grenchman is good enough for me for now
22:45	TravisD_	yeah, seems unwise to reimplement that functionality
23:00	isaacbw	(
23:00	technomancy	bufferloss: can't you pipe a file to grench repl?
23:00	isaacbw	(println "Hi!")
23:00	isaacbw	,(println "Hi!")
23:00	clojurebot	Hi!\n
23:01	bufferloss	technomancy, dunno, possibly? would that cause any and all other filess that may have been changed to be loaded as well if the piped file depends on them?
23:01	isaacbw	hiredman: is the clojurebot here the same one on github?
23:03	technomancy	bufferloss: you would need :reload-all for that
23:09	amalloy	isaacbw: github.com/hiredman/clojurebot is the source for clojurebot, yes
23:09	amalloy	although it seems like a lot of it is not hard-coded, but learned/taught facts. i'm not really sure how much
23:09	TravisD	Anyone here from Ann Arbor?
23:11	amalloy	isaacbw: github.com/raynes/lazybot also runs here
23:14	isaacbw	amalloy: which one would be a better bet if all I want is a clojure evaluator for my channel?
23:15	amalloy	i'd say it's easier to run your own lazybot, but then i helped write lazybot
23:15	isaacbw	:P
23:15	amalloy	you can also just ask Raynes or me to put this lazybot in your channel. he's in a lot of channels
23:15	isaacbw	ah, that might be nice. Let me check it out first though
23:15	TravisD	For some reason that reminded me a lot of the movie Her. Many conversations! (hopefully not a spoiler)
23:16	isaacbw	we might want a single bot that evaluates a variety of languages (js, clojure, haskell, etc) in which case a prefab bot wouldn't work (probably)
23:16	isaacbw	TravisD: maybe a little one
23:16	isaacbw	or a big one if I'm guessing correctly. I haven't seen it :P
23:16	TravisD	ah, no, it's not a major thing
23:16	dissipate	,(= (and) (or))
23:16	isaacbw	okay
23:16	clojurebot	false
23:17	TravisD	You probably wont recognize what I mean until you've watched it
23:17	amalloy	isaacbw: lazybot does haskell, at least
23:17	isaacbw	ooh
23:17	amalloy	i think rublets does a lot of languages
23:17	isaacbw	that's two out of four
23:18	dissipate	amalloy, all these bots are a security disaster waiting to happen
23:18	dissipate	amalloy, who calls 'eval' on some random code anyways?
23:18	amalloy	dissipate: yeah bro, selinux sandboxes are basically like injecting yourself with aids
23:18	TravisD	heh
23:19	dissipate	amalloy, selinux? really? i would have thought it would be running on BSD.
23:22	amalloy	you're welcome to try and break clojurebot or lazybot, dissipate
23:22	amalloy	i think you'll find it's more difficult than just badmouthing everything you see
23:23	dissipate	amalloy, badmouthing??
23:23	TravisD	amalloy: It's impressive to me that these bots are open source and still safe enough to use
23:23	lazybot	dissipate: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
23:23	ryantm	I found this post about Clojure records from 2010 http://david-mcneil.com/post/765563763/enhanced-clojure-records it talks about some shortcomings of Records, like positional, non-optional arguments to the constructors. It mentions that maybe more work would go into Records in Clojure. Has any of that work happened?
23:24	dissipate	amalloy, i'm not into h4x0ring.
23:24	amalloy	TravisD: like anything else, they're safe because they're open-source
23:25	muhoo	lol grenchmen. i think "simon le cowell" is a reference to "simon le bon"
23:25	ryantm	Oh, I just found the map-> constructor. That works!
23:25	TravisD	amalloy: Yeah, I guess you have many eyes checking. But, I guess it's also easier to find potential exploits
23:25	dissipate	amalloy, bitcoin is open source, and someone broke it awhile back.
23:25	amalloy	i'm 100% sure there are vulnerabilities left somewhere in lazybot, but there are far fewer than there used to be
23:26	TravisD	dissipate: "Broke" might be a strong word, there
23:26	dissipate	TravisD, well, they were able to do a transaction for a ridiculous number of coins
23:26	TravisD	I don't know much about it, but I don't think that was a fault in the design of bitcoin
23:27	dissipate	TravisD, well it was because they didn't handle integer arithmetic properly in the C++ code
23:28	TravisD	dissipate: I was also under the impression that bitcoin was mostly a community and a protocol, with many different implementations.
23:28	TravisD	But this is getting off topic! We can move it to clojure-social, if you like
23:28	dissipate	amalloy, did you say i 'badmouth' everything because i raised issues with 'shuffle' awhile back? just curious
23:28	technomancy	not exactly a lot of incentive to spend all day breaking into lazybot though
23:28	amalloy	if lazybot were protecting bank vaults, it would be considered laughably insecure. but it's just a tool to make hobbyists' lives easier. people love to find bugs in it, and when they do, they tell us about them
23:29	TravisD	technomancy: But think of the power you would have!
23:29	dissipate	TravisD, sorry, i was referring to the Satoshi client
23:29	amalloy	a malicious hacker could, what, wipe a VPS? that we have a backup of?
23:29	dissipate	amalloy, no, turn the VPS into a C&C
23:29	ryantm	Does lazybot parse IRC messages in some rigorous way?
23:30	dissipate	ryantm, yeah, it's called 'eval'
23:30	ryantm	I don't mean the PRIVMSG contents.
23:31	bufferloss	how do I pass a sql date back into clojure.java.jdbc
23:31	dissipate	,(iterate)
23:31	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core/iterate>
23:31	dissipate	,(iterate +)
23:31	bufferloss	I'm getting 'Exception in thread "main" java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to convert: class java.sql.Date to Object[]'
23:31	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core/iterate>
23:31	ryantm	,(defrecord Message [a b c])
23:31	clojurebot	sandbox.Message
23:32	dissipate	,(iterate + 1)
23:32	clojurebot	(1 1 1 1 1 ...)
23:32	ryantm	,(map->Message {:a 1})
23:32	clojurebot	#sandbox.Message{:a 1, :b nil, :c nil}
23:33	amalloy	dissipate: i didn't have any particular incident in mind. but most of the time when i hear you talk, you are saying how bad something is. shuffle, clojars...and this is what i could find in five minutes log-grepping the past two weeks
23:33	xeqi	the bots have vulnerabilites, but I found the recursive bot talk someone finally found to be more awesome
23:33	dissipate	amalloy, i offered to donate to clojars
23:34	amalloy	apparently while i wasn't listening you also said java is a bad language for startups, and anyone who "architects" a java application probably doesn't ever write code
23:34	dissipate	amalloy, java is a bad language, period. bad especially for startups. that's in dispute?
23:35	amalloy	i don't intend to engage you on the merits of your claims. but you insult a lot of things
23:37	dissipate	amalloy, i think things could be better, that's for sure.
23:37	noonian	it's hard to argue that java isn't at the very least an improvement over c(++)
23:37	amalloy	so go make them better. write an amazing product in clojure. write a better sandboxer. find a bug in lazybot
23:38	amalloy	mirror clojars
23:38	dissipate	amalloy, BTW, my poke at lazy bot was a joke. sorry it hit you the wrong way.
23:40	dissipate	amalloy, i'm amazed by clojure (so far). but i won't be writing any amazing product in it. my first project might be to port AIXI to clojure, or to write an easy to use alternative to the built-in 'shuffle'.
23:42	noonian	,(doc shuffle)
23:42	clojurebot	"([coll]); Return a random permutation of coll"
23:42	dissipate	noonian, oh man, don't get me started again....
23:42	TravisD	Is that not convenient?
23:43	noonian	let me guess, it's not random enough for some use case?
23:43	dissipate	TravisD, it is convenient with a number of caveats that are not even properly documented.
23:44	dissipate	noonian, in a way, yes. if you pass a collection over a certain size, not all permutations will be equally possible, and many permutations will never show up at all.
23:45	ryantm	,(map->Message {:a 1 :asdf 5})
23:45	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: map->Message in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
23:45	ryantm	,(defrecord Message [a b c])
23:45	clojurebot	sandbox.Message
23:45	ryantm	,(map->Message {:a 1 :asdf 5})
23:45	clojurebot	#sandbox.Message{:a 1, :b nil, :c nil, :asdf 5}
23:48	dissipate	noonian, i think i could rewrite shuffle that would block until there was enough entropy to produce truly random shuffles. in other words if you do (shuffle (range 0 52)), the call doesn't return until enough entropy has been acquired to do the shuffle without certain permutations being dropped
23:49	dissipate	noonian, in short, a design decision was made to cover up the deficiencies of hardware
23:49	noonian	idk, if i'm using shuffle i most likely don't care if it's not quite random
23:50	dissipate	noonian, if you are a statistician, research scientist or a mathematician, you would care
23:51	ryantm	Clojure has plenty of design decisions like that.
23:52	dissipate	ryantm, i'm not surprised. what's another example?
23:53	ryantm	There seems to be a lot of talk these days about the insecurity of blocking for entropy. An attacker could exhaust your entropy pool via a side channel and control your program flow.
23:54	dissipate	ryantm, damn. :(