#clojure – 2014-03-07

2014-03-07

00:05	felixflores	in the wiki page http://clojure.org/reader
00:06	felixflores	it says Keywords are like symbols, except: They cannot contain '.' or name classes.
00:06	felixflores	is that true?
00:08	ambrosebs	felixflores: sounds a bit odd, but that's the closest thing we have for a spec atm
00:08	ambrosebs	felixflores: the current implementation doesn't behave like that
00:08	ambrosebs	felixflores: of course that doesn't mean much
00:10	felixflores	how can that be true if even Datomic uses :db.part/user and :db.install/attribute ...
00:14	ambrosebs	these are all facts
03:12	hhenkel	Good morning all, I was wondering if there is a good way of "knowing" the current path within a postwalk call?
03:14	hhenkel	I got some code that reads a configuration and looks for strings of the form ${action.getThis} to look up some value in a map.
03:14	Null_A	hhenkel: not using postwalk, but you could write your own postwalk with path
03:15	hhenkel	This works fine so far but now I recognized that there may be times were I need to know in which path I'm currently working.
03:16	hhenkel	Null_A: okay, writing something new is always an option but I was hoping not to reinvent the wheel.
03:16	Null_A	hhenkel: if I recall postwalk implementation in only a few lines and build ontop of walk
03:17	hhenkel	Null_A: okay, I'm looking into it...
03:26	honza	how can i use a specific ns based on some condition? suppose i have (:require [a :as a] [b :as b])) and based on some condition i want to use functions from a, and then sometimes i want stuff from b; you can assume both a and b have a fn called "greet"
03:27	honza	the "a" and "b" don't seem to be fully qualified on their own for some reason
03:29	honza	all i have found was (find-var 'a/greet)
03:34	BartAdv	damn, I've played with lein-droid, and even though I can't connect my tablet with usb for dev-mode (no drivers), I've just copied the apk and repl into it. such happiness :)
03:40	muhoo	lein-droid is amazing. much nicer way to do android stuff.
03:40	muhoo	if you have an app where it's ok for it to take a while to load, and then stay up.
03:44	BartAdv	yeah, for now I'm jsut playing around, but I would be sad if I had to make some app and the startup time would be a 'no' argument for choosign clojure
03:44	BartAdv	choosing*
03:45	BartAdv	note that I'm total androd noob so I don't even know when app needs full startup time and when it's just put in background and restored and all those things
04:25	CookedGr1phon	Hopefully the startup time issue is getting some love : http://galdolber.tumblr.com/post/78110050703/reduce-startup
04:26	CookedGr1phon	I'm certainly betting on it, doing a lot in clojure-android at the moment
04:28	BartAdv	you mean it will eventuall be swallowed by the 'official' clojure?
04:29	CookedGr1phon	don't know about that
04:30	CookedGr1phon	might end up being a fork which tracks main clojure but with some tweaks for mobile
04:30	CookedGr1phon	it would certainly be nicer if it all worked off one main line though
04:30	CookedGr1phon	just don't know how feasible that is
04:32	BartAdv	and how do you rate the experience of developing for android? you're doing some commercial stuff?
04:33	CookedGr1phon	yeah, the experience is so much nicer than normal android/eclipse/spend half your day waiting for adb
04:33	CookedGr1phon	most of my code is pure and unit tested on my pc
04:33	CookedGr1phon	there's a thin layer of android specific stuff
04:33	CookedGr1phon	but even that i just tweak in the repl and don't have to restart all the time
04:33	CookedGr1phon	there's a few libraries have issues
04:34	CookedGr1phon	main one i've come across is duplicate classes don't get ignored like on the jvm
04:34	CookedGr1phon	so you get weird library conflicts
04:34	CookedGr1phon	but a few excludes usually fix that
04:36	BartAdv	what editor you use? are you maybe familiar with LightTable connection issues or you just do emacs/cider or something else?
04:36	CookedGr1phon	I just use emacs/cider
04:36	CookedGr1phon	never really used anything else
04:37	CookedGr1phon	the nice thing about cider is that you can C-c M-r to switch between two repl connections, so i can be unit testing something with midje locally with autotest running, then when everything passes rotate repls and eval there, start using it
04:38	CookedGr1phon	means you don't have to be so worried about exceptions causing AndroidRuntime exceptions and killing your process
04:38	CookedGr1phon	though I do still wish there was a way to catch those and not reset your process
04:39	BartAdv	hah true, too damn easy to just end with 'unfortunately, xxx has stopped'
04:41	sveri	hi, does someone know what happened to the "out of the tar pit" paper on the papers-we-love github repository?
04:42	CookedGr1phon	does anyone know of a small library for escaping/unescaping html entities
04:43	dsrx	sveri: since it's a git repo... presumably you can look through the history, right?
04:48	CookedGr1phon	further to my last question, how about one that just works? Pulled in apache commons lang stringescapeutils and it doesn't html encode all my entities
04:48	sveri	dsrx: thank you, i found it, the repo moved and there the paper was added to a new folder -.-
04:50	notostraca	CookedGr1phon, ouch. I wonder if there's some predefined mapping you can just plug into clojure.string/escape
05:06	chare	commute vs alter
05:06	chare	not getting it
05:10	szymanowski	hello, is there anybody how knows instaparse a bit?
05:11	szymanowski	(def foo
05:11	szymanowski	(insta/parser
05:11	szymanowski	"S = A B
05:11	szymanowski	A = 'a'+
05:11	szymanowski	B = #'1\|2\|3\|4' "))
05:11	szymanowski	(foo "aa")
05:11	szymanowski	why does it success? B is empty
05:23	CookedGr1phon	notostraca: don't think so, I want to htmlencode emoji characters. I'm wondering if actually the issue is the html encoding I'm setting, and actually I could just put them in directly if i set that directly
05:23	notostraca	emoji are UTF-16 or more, right?
05:24	CookedGr1phon	utf-8
05:24	notostraca	I didn't know you could do the ones that weren't in the BMP with UTF-8, but it kinda makes sense
05:25	CookedGr1phon	bmp?
05:26	notostraca	basic multilingual plane, the first 2^16 chars I think
05:26	notostraca	emoji are past that
05:27	CookedGr1phon	i think it's the other way around, utf-16 is a fixed size codepoint, utf-8 can have longer codepoints
05:27	CookedGr1phon	to include an arbitrary number of characters afaik
05:27	chare	clojure is too complicated
05:27	CookedGr1phon	characters is probably the wrong terminology there, but you get what I mean
05:28	notostraca	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emoticons_(Unicode_block) do you mean these emoticons?
05:28	CookedGr1phon	chare: commute is for something like addition, where order doesn't matter
05:28	CookedGr1phon	chare: so if you say I have 5, add 3 and add 8, it doesn't matter what order those operations come through
05:29	chare	I want to know how the underlying stm retry works differently for commute
05:29	chare	its not clear to me
05:29	CookedGr1phon	so if something's changed in a ref transaction but it's able to commute, you can just apply it on top of teh new thing
05:29	CookedGr1phon	but with alter, you have to do the whole transaction again
05:29	CookedGr1phon	to avoid getting into an inconsistent state
05:31	CookedGr1phon	but yea, I've been using clojure 2 years now and never felt like I actually needed a ref, I tend to use agents or atoms
05:31	CookedGr1phon	notostraca: no I mean these ones http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emoji
05:32	notostraca	CookedGr1phon, the ones I linked are lower in the page
05:32	CookedGr1phon	ah ok
05:40	effy	is there a way to get a feeling of how much memory some nested datastructure/object take (i am not familiar with java and unlike C i dont have any intuition of what would take how much) i found this https://gist.github.com/nathell/417669 but it seems to always give me the same size
05:42	BartAdv	I come from .NET background, but System/gc looks suspicious to me, especially when it's invoked 4 times?
05:42	BartAdv	isn't there some flag for 'full collection' or something like that?
05:42	effy	BartAdv: it's not my code i found that on the mailing list
05:43	BartAdv	doesn't matter, I'm just hinting
05:44	effy	what i mean is that i think the full approach is kind of sketchy, i'm hopping for someone to have a better idea than calling gc
05:45	BartAdv	heh, would be quite interested in it too
05:50	BartAdv	what about just looking in the java world: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/52353/in-java-what-is-the-best-way-to-determine-the-size-of-an-object ?
05:56	effy	BartAdv: trying to import the instrumentation thing into clojure, but i've no idea what i am doing it might take a while
06:01	BartAdv	it seems it requires some tinkering with the way jvm is started/some manifest editing, so it might be not that straightforward
06:02	CookedGr1phon	doesn't visualvm have stuff for tracking memory usage?
06:18	effy	it's the second time in 3 days i hear about visualvm, i guess it's going to be time to see what it's all about this w-e
06:18	CookedGr1phon	well attaching a profiling tool and just browsing the interface has got to be easier than adding calls in your code
06:19	CookedGr1phon	yourkit is meant to be good too, but it's not free
06:21	effy	CookedGr1phon: in the first place i was hopping for something like a simple command that i could call from the REPL, kind of like (time) but for memory, seems like it's not as easy as i expected
06:31	clgv	effy: you can get free memory and total memory from the Runtime class. but that only gives a summary on the global state
06:32	Anderkent	the gist method could work, but I'd do it with 1000 or more instances then take average
06:32	Anderkent	i don't think you can be much more precise easily
06:33	Anderkent	if you really need precision then visualvm + oql is the way to go, I suppose
06:37	BartAdv	but is there a way to really force gc? as far as I know, calling System/gc can effect in nothing being done at all
06:39	Anderkent	it can, but in practice that will rarely happen
06:43	effy	Anderkent: i understand why you would like to instantiate a lot and average but i am dealing with large objects so i cannot afford to instantiate a lot, and the thing inside the gist always return 136bytes for me (for la 320 000 elemects matrix which seems improbable)
06:45	Anderkent	effy: ah, it's not transitive
06:45	Anderkent	no wait
06:46	Anderkent	was looking at wrong code :P
06:50	Anderkent	yeah I guess I was wrong about System/gc being usually reliable for short lived objects
06:51	Anderkent	effy: I guess your best bet is a profiler after all
08:05	llasram	,(meta '^:foo foo)
08:05	clojurebot	{:foo true}
08:05	llasram	Why did I never think of that before?
08:08	clgv	llasram: uuuh. interesting
08:08	clgv	,(meta '^:foo ~'foo)
08:08	clojurebot	{:foo true}
08:08	clgv	,(let [bla 'foo] (meta '^:foo ~bla))
08:08	clojurebot	{:foo true}
08:10	edbond	how can I destruct true/false result of group-by? ,(group-by odd? (range 10))
08:10	edbond	,(group-by odd? (range 10))
08:10	clojurebot	{false [0 2 4 6 8], true [1 3 5 7 9]}
08:10	llasram	clgv: Well, those are kind of different
08:10	llasram	,'~blah
08:10	clojurebot	(clojure.core/unquote blah)
08:11	clgv	llasram: but attach the meta as well
08:12	chouser	,(let [{odds true, evens false} (group-by odd? (range 10))] evens)
08:12	clojurebot	[0 2 4 6 8]
08:12	llasram	clgv: Yes, but to the `unquote` form
08:12	llasram	,(map (juxt identity meta) [^:foo 'foo, '^:foo foo])
08:12	clojurebot	([foo nil] [foo {:foo true}])
08:12	llasram	The latter is what I realized you can achieve
08:12	edbond	chouser, thanks
08:12	edbond	(inc chouser)
08:12	lazybot	⇒ 16
08:13	clgv	'^:foo ~'foo
08:13	clgv	,'^:foo ~'foo
08:13	clojurebot	(clojure.core/unquote (quote foo))
08:14	chouser	edbond: sure, np.
09:08	trptcolin	if anybody's used delimc or delimited continuations via shift/reset in any other context, i'd appreciate any ideas on this: https://gist.github.com/trptcolin/8f91cdb2eddb6e7d9adc
09:24	martinklepsch_	Raynes, if that's yours, has it been posted somewhere else: https://www.refheap.com/15296
11:02	noprompt	are there any clojure source pretty printers?
11:05	gfredericks	I've never seen one
11:06	TravisD	noprompt: Not sure if this is what you're looking for, but Pygments supports clojure, and I guess that means you could use it with the minted latex package
11:11	noprompt	TravisD: that's not exactly what i'm looking for but nice thought.
11:11	noprompt	i think i might actually have to write something special
11:11	TravisD	noprompt: :) out of curiosity, what are you looking for?
11:12	noprompt	TravisD: best i demonstrate w/ an example... one moment.
11:13	dnolen_	noprompt: pprint has a source code mode, it works ok
11:14	dnolen_	it's what the macroexpander in Emacs uses
11:14	dnolen_	Cider I mean
11:23	noprompt	https://github.com/noprompt/thorn :)
11:23	noprompt	basically i want to emit clean clojure files: https://gist.github.com/noprompt/9414584
11:25	clgv	noprompt: there was one lib mentioned on the ML
11:25	noprompt	dnolen_: so this can convert css->clj right now.
11:25	clgv	noprompt: ah right. "fipp" was its name https://github.com/brandonbloom/fipp
11:26	noprompt	dnolen_: i'm wondering if there are any strategies for when i go to do sass, keeping track of free/bound vars etc.
11:26	noprompt	automatically generating correct refers if enough information is known.
11:26	bbloom	clgv: noprompt: how can i help? :-)
11:27	noprompt	bbloom: see the gist
11:27	noprompt	bbloom: essentially i just want to clean that up.
11:27	noprompt	whenever i write a file.
11:27	bbloom	clgv: noprompt: Fipp only pretty prints edn, not clojure code.... BUT! it's more of a pretty printer construction kit than anything else, you can look at the edn.clj file to see how you could easily make your own pretty printer for the output of your app
11:28	bbloom	you don't need to change the pretty printer engine, you just need to supply a pretty "document"
11:28	bbloom	https://github.com/brandonbloom/fipp/blob/master/src/fipp/edn.clj
11:29	noprompt	thanks brandon
11:29	noprompt	i'll work this in after i've nailed down the code generation.
11:30	bbloom	noprompt: let me know if you have any questions. i know a few folks are using fipp but i don't get much feedback, so i can only assume it works perfectly :-)
11:30	noprompt	it's pretty amazing how fast i was able to get to a point where i could generate code once the sass parse tree was converted to pure data.
11:30	bbloom	noprompt: you could also use fipp to pretty print the generated css as a backend from garden
11:30	bbloom	i assume garden does just indenting now, right?
11:31	noprompt	bbloom: basically, but it's horrible.
11:31	noprompt	bbloom: it gets a few things wrong.
11:31	bbloom	if you have an AST of the CSS code, you can easily translate that to an "AST" of Fipp's pretty print document format
11:31	noprompt	that's also because i didn't completely know what i was doing.
11:32	noprompt	sweet! that's awesome.
11:32	bbloom	that'll give you proper indenting, line breaking, and right-margin awareness
11:32	bbloom	there's even column alignment
11:32	gfredericks	,(def foo #'foo)
11:32	clojurebot	#'sandbox/foo
11:32	clgv	,foo
11:32	clojurebot	#'sandbox/foo
11:33	clgv	:O ;)
11:34	noprompt	the idea of thorn is pretty trippy.
11:34	noprompt	the cool thing is, the sass parse tree can be converted to anything.
11:35	bbloom	yeah, sass is pretty well engineered
11:35	bbloom	iirc it's got a proper AST for each of the various transformation levels
11:35	noprompt	all i had to do was write a new visitor and emit data instead of code.
11:35	bbloom	and the CSS AST is (was?) a strict subset of the scss and sass trees
11:35	bbloom	yeah, beautiful :-)
11:36	bbloom	fipp operates on a very compiler-ish functional model of pretty printing
11:36	bbloom	the "printer" is a machine that is just an interpreter for a little language
11:36	bbloom	that little language represents a pretty printed document
11:36	bbloom	so you just slap a pass on to your compiler pipeline
11:37	noprompt	gah! i'm so excited about this.
11:38	bbloom	also, fipp is designed to be memory efficient, so it accepts lazy seqs in the input documents, so you don't actually need to do all the work of realizing the entire AST in memory at once. just the spine of the AST that is currently being printed
11:40	bbloom	noprompt: if you want to use Fipp as a backend for "production" use, it should be fast enough, but if it isn't, you can probably swap out a different interpreter that doesn't do any of the actual pretty part of the pretty printing
11:40	bbloom	but if that is too slow, you have to just swap it out in your pipeline with an alternative backend
11:42	noprompt	bbloom: i'm sure it will be fast enough. the purpose of thorn is simply to generate proper clojure code from sass/css (maybe less later).
11:42	noprompt	someone can then clean it up, etc. so i doesn't have to be ultra fast. just correct.
11:43	bbloom	noprompt: ah, by "production" use i meant if you wanted it in the Garden backend
11:43	bbloom	for a run-once tool, i agree: who gives a shit if it's slow
11:43	bbloom	but for your app builds, it needs to be fast
11:44	noprompt	bbloom: oh, oh, yeah. well i definitely want to plug that in. will it work w/ cljs?
11:44	noprompt	it's not terribly important if it doesn't.
11:45	bbloom	noprompt: https://github.com/brandonbloom/fipp/pull/12
11:47	noprompt	sweet
11:56	gfredericks	apparently throwing a function called `repl` into clojure.core doesn't go very well
12:00	gtrak	throwing anything into clojure.core probably won't go very well.
12:01	gtrak	just add a UUID suffix and let autocomplete do the work :-)
12:07	mzdravkov	I need some web framework for clojure, but there are like hundred of them. Can you point me to a framework, that is being actively maintened. Something simple, similar to Sinatra, would be perfect.
12:07	gtrak	mzdravkov: compojure is the sinatra analogue.
12:07	gtrak	the popular one
12:09	mzdravkov	gtrak: thanks
12:30	gfredericks	trying to change a var's metadata before its initial value finishes evaluating might be a bad idea
12:35	jcromartie	gfredericks: what kind of horrible things are you doing?
12:38	gfredericks	jcromartie: https://github.com/fredericksgary/repl-utils/blob/master/src/com/gfredericks/repl.clj#L50
12:40	jcromartie	interesting
12:40	jcromartie	so it returns a symbol for a var, so that you don't have to worry about hanging on to a future or whatever
12:41	jcromartie	that's rather handy in the REPL
12:42	gfredericks	exactly
12:42	gfredericks	and if I'm using cider with C-u C-x C-e, the symbol for the job is printed right after the expression
12:42	gfredericks	I did it with a future initiall and then realized dereffing was too much trouble
12:42	gfredericks	life is too short to deref
12:42	koreth_	I like Enlive's conceptual model, but man, is it a pain to debug. So much indirection I'm never sure what's going to call what when, and the stack traces are next to useless. No question, just wanted to vent.
12:43	gfredericks	clojurebot: enlive is a pain to debug
12:43	clojurebot	Alles klar
12:44	gfredericks	does anybody know why C-u C-x C-e doesn't print out to the repl buffer?
12:44	gfredericks	I can imagine it being intentional but it's pretty much never what I want (since I can't see out otherwise)
13:02	ptcek_	Do I need to use rufoa/named-re or I can get named regexp groups when running on java 1.7 (but how...)?
13:03	mikerod	I originally thought that syntax-quote was at "read-time". However, I'm confused now because it is able to qualify symbols against the current environment. This sounds more like "compile-time" to me. What am I missing?
13:05	bbloom	mikerod: read-time and compile-time are interleaved
13:06	bbloom	mikerod: if you have two forms at the top level of a file, the first form is compiled before the second form is read
13:06	mikerod	bbloom: That confuses me because I can use the LispReader to read an input stream
13:07	bbloom	mikerod: they don't HAVE TO BE interleaved, they just are for the top level of a clojure file
13:07	mikerod	bbloom: so I was looking at it from the perspective of "nothing is compiled"
13:07	bbloom	mikerod: from that perspective, syntax-quote is broken
13:07	mikerod	bbloom: so if the reader finds syntax-quote like, `a in a stream and 'a doesn't belong anywhere, what happens?
13:07	bbloom	,`a
13:07	clojurebot	sandbox/a
13:08	bbloom	mikerod: https://github.com/brandonbloom/backtick
13:08	bbloom	mikerod: syntax quote doesn't need to be part of the reader, nor does syntax quote need to use the "current" compiler environment
13:09	bbloom	mikerod: those are both implementation details of clojure
13:09	mikerod	ah, I have stumbled on this before and didn't go though it. I will take a look through what you have here.
13:09	bbloom	mikerod: from one perspective, it's a "bug" from another perspective, it's an "optimization"
13:09	mikerod	bbloom: yep, I also noticed that Clojure syntax quote is looking at symbols from the "current" ns perspective
13:10	mikerod	I understand that in a typical use-case for it in a macro returning code, it would make sense to work like it does
13:11	mikerod	bbloom: thanks for the link, I'll go through this. definitely looks interesting.
13:16	rufoa	<ptcek_> Do I need to use rufoa/named-re or I can get named regexp groups when running on java 1.7 (but how...)? << i made named-re because there wasn't (isn't?) a way to do it in clojure itself even on j1.7
13:16	rufoa	it's a bit of a hack though
13:16	Raynes	People are still writing more task scheduling libraries in Clojure? o.o
13:17	ptcek_	rufoa: response from author :) Thanks for making it clear that it does not work...
13:17	Raynes	Can it really be possible that out of the 400 existing libraries for it, there are still use cases not catered to?
13:17	Raynes	:p
13:19	TravisD	Raynes: afaik, there's quite a lot of active research on scheduling. Some of the new libraries maybe implement fancy new algorithms :P
13:19	Raynes	TravisD: But they don't :P
13:21	mindbender1	Raynes: Prove it!
13:25	Raynes	mindbender1: I mean, I can't really prove that none of them (I may be missing some) implement exciting new algorithms. That said, it doesn't really bother me that all these libs exist. it's fantastic, even. Options are cool. I mean, I also wrote one.
13:29	TravisD	Raynes: My guess is that there are so many libraries because people write them as a learning experience
13:29	TravisD	and maybe a few of them are made by active researchers :)
13:29	Raynes	TravisD: Indeed. I just never realized that scheduling libraries were one of those projects people used for that.
13:29	TravisD	Ah, yeah, it's an interesting observation
13:30	Raynes	TravisD: When learning new languages I generally write an API client library and CLI tool for refheap.
13:30	Raynes	I like that particular project because it's trivial and still requires digging into how you do crucial things in a given language.
13:31	TravisD	heh, sounds cool. I don't learn new languages often enough to have go-to starter projects
13:31	TravisD	:(
13:31	TravisD	Whenever I try a new language, though, invariably I try to implement my experiments in it. Sometimes with a lot of frustration, lol
13:32	sdegutis	I just barely missed the Haskell debates in here a few days ago... what were the main pros/cons for Haskell?
13:35	technomancy	pros: your code is always correct. cons: you have to listen to people talk about monads all day.
13:35	technomancy	it's a trade-off
13:36	koalallama	a+ summary
13:38	TravisD	Did any of the #haskell guys chime in?
13:43	justin_smith	technomancy: don't forget the curse of the monad - if you figure them out you need to make a tutorial blog post within 7 days or you die.
13:43	justin_smith	it's like the category theory version of The Ring
13:43	technomancy	hehehe
13:43	TravisD	lol
13:46	dacc	haha
13:48	sdegutis	heh heh heh heh
13:50	koalallama	or at least tweet about a burrito
13:51	sdegutis	technomancy: I have a hard time imagining how Haskell code can be any safer than equivalent C# code.
13:51	sdegutis	(Picked a random type-safe language as example.)
13:51	justin_smith	the burrito loophole is your ethical way out - it fulfills the requirements of the curse, but will not lead to anyone else's monad nirvana and thus does not spread the curse
13:52	technomancy	sdegutis: it's true; haskell is so good that it defies imagination
13:53	sdegutis	heh, "WTF is a Monad? w/ Uncle Bob Martin -- Watch Uncle Bob use Clojure to stumble around this hideously complex topic and eventually give up and fail." -- http://www.meetup.com/Software-Craftsmanship-McHenry-County/events/144270572/
13:54	sdegutis	That would have been fun to attend.
13:54	justin_smith	sdegutis: in all seriousness, haskell has more nuance in dealing with types - you can have something that is "not yet typed" or a member of a typeclass with a nuance and flexibility most static languages can't match
13:54	justin_smith	(as random examples and not the pinnacle)
13:55	TravisD	Yeah, I love watching failure :)
13:56	technomancy	anyway doesn't C# have null unioned with every type? that kind of disqualifies its type system from being taken seriously.
13:56	justin_smith	shrug oriented programming via the universal implicit maybe
13:57	technomancy	sounds like a conference talk title
13:57	TravisD	Hmm, isn't bottom a member of every type in Haskell?
13:57	technomancy	one of the speakers here said that he's being trolled by conference organizers who conspire to append "... an unexpected journey" to every talk he submits
13:58	technomancy	"Shrug-oriented Programming via the Universal Implicit Maybe: an Unexpected Journey"
13:58	sdegutis	technomancy: only if you add a ? mark at the end of the type
13:58	sdegutis	technomancy: bool can only be true/false, but bool? can be true/false/null
13:58	sdegutis	:D
13:58	justin_smith	TravisD: bottom is less like null and more like an Exception I think
13:58	justin_smith	(I could be wrong on that)
13:58	technomancy	sdegutis: huh; TIL. that's a hell of a lot better than java.
13:59	technomancy	Raynes: does elixir support identifiers with question marks and exclamation points?
13:59	TravisD	justin_smith: Heh, yeah, I guess they're not really the same. But it's a similar ugliness :P
13:59	Raynes	technomancy: Does Erlang?
13:59	technomancy	Raynes: no, erlang is super dumb about that
13:59	justin_smith	TravisD: well, if you are turing complete, you either have an error state implicitly or explicitly
13:59	sdegutis	technomancy: "that is lame"?
13:59	TravisD	true :)
13:59	technomancy	I wondered if they bothered fixing that in elixir
14:00	technomancy	sdegutis: faint praise, I know
14:00	TravisD	justin_smith: I don't know much about it, but I guess you can do quite a lot of interesting things without being turing complete
14:00	sdegutis	technomancy: did i guess TIL right?
14:00	clojurebot	Excuse me?
14:00	technomancy	sdegutis: oh
14:00	technomancy	no
14:00	technomancy	clojureTIL?
14:00	technomancy	dang it
14:00	justin_smith	TravisD: but not much programming? dunno
14:00	technomancy	clojurebot: TIL?
14:00	clojurebot	excusez-moi
14:00	technomancy	clojurebot: TIL is today I learned
14:00	clojurebot	Roger.
14:00	sdegutis	ahhh
14:00	technomancy	sdegutis: ^
14:01	sdegutis	also, does Java just allow any tpye to be null?
14:01	technomancy	sdegutis: unless it's a primitive
14:02	technomancy	it's pretty terrible
14:02	sdegutis	So, regards to language design, I just replaced (keyword (format "quality-%s" quality)) with (get {"high" :quality-high, "low" :quality-low} quality) in our code...
14:02	gfredericks	technomancy: it could be worse
14:02	sdegutis	Am I.. am I doing dynamic programming wrong?
14:02	gfredericks	technomancy: we could have a boxed java.lang.Null
14:02	TravisD	justin_smith: I think languages like Coq and Agda are not turing complete, yet they are still useful programming langauges
14:03	technomancy	gfredericks: Null/valueof
14:03	gfredericks	technomancy: Null#equals always returns false
14:04	TimMc	sdegutis: Congratulations, your code is now more greppable.
14:04	sdegutis	TimMc: yea, that's one of the main benefits of avoiding the (keyword ...) style
14:05	stuartsierra	dnolen_: A while ago you asked for a G.Closure release, but there aren't any newer releases on https://code.google.com/p/closure-library/downloads/list . Did you want to go straight to the Git source?
14:05	sdegutis	Not only more greppable, but more grokkable, and especially easier to refactor using automated tools
14:05	dnolen_	stuartsierra: yeah I noticed they stopped doing them :P
14:05	sdegutis	(Also there's a single `letfn` in our code, and it's about to go away.)
14:05	dnolen_	stuartsierra: straight from Git source sounds fine.
14:06	stuartsierra	dnolen_: Much harder to pick a release point then.
14:06	dnolen_	stuartsierra: do you have another solution in mind?
14:06	stuartsierra	dnolen_: No. :(
14:07	stuartsierra	Just wondering how best to go about versioning.
14:08	stuartsierra	Git SHAs don't sort.
14:08	stuartsierra	Maven-ish things expect version numbers to go up.
14:08	dnolen_	stuartsierra: well ClojureScript version is just the commit number
14:09	stuartsierra	Bleh. Don't remind me.
14:09	TravisD	Can anyone recommend a visually appealing dark emacs theme? Sorry for being grossly off topic
14:09	dnolen_	stuartsierra: I think you wrote that script :)
14:09	stuartsierra	dnolen_: Just following orders, judge.
14:10	`cbp	TravisD: I use zenburn
14:10	TravisD	`cbp: I'll check it out, thanks :)
14:10	stuartsierra	dnolen_: Well, the last release of G.Closure was 0.0-<DATE>-<SHA> so I guess we can stick with that.
14:10	technomancy	TravisD: zenburn and monokai are my favourites
14:11	stuartsierra	Re themes, I like Twilight.
14:11	TravisD	Yeah, I used monokai for a while! Is there a package for zenburn?
14:11	sdegutis	TravisD: I like this one:
14:11	`cbp	TravisD: yes there is on melpa
14:11	`cbp	TravisD: works great with clojure
14:11	TravisD	Just found it :) There seemed to be a few alternative packages, but I installed zenburn-theme
14:11	`cbp	TravisD: solarized/dark is also nice
14:11	dnolen_	TravisD: I like tomorrow-night
14:11	sdegutis	TravisD: https://gist.github.com/sdegutis/9417820
14:12	sdegutis	It's a fork of naquadah.el on Melpa, but nicer on the eyes in a few but important ways.
14:13	TravisD	hehe, thanks for all the suggestions! To summarize, they are zenburn, monokai, twilight, solarized, tomorrow-night, and sdegutis' modified version of naquadah.el
14:13	sdegutis	(Actually I was the one who put naquadah-theme.el on Melpa, but it was my fork, not the original, and eventually the author of naquadah-theme.el wanted his on there instead so mine got removed. So this gist is the only version of it now.)
14:13	amalloy	technomancy: i love that presentation title. plz to submit to a real conference
14:14	sdegutis	Wishing my nicks were colored in this IRC client right about now...
14:14	sdegutis	Or that stuartsierra's nick wasn't so close to technomancy's in length...
14:15	TravisD	I really miss my coloured nicks :( Now everyone is just a gray smudge of the same
14:15	sdegutis	I should write an IRC client that's programmable in ClojureScript.
14:15	sdegutis	Then I'd be able to easily add colored nicks.
14:15	`cbp	an irc client for light table :)
14:17	amalloy	TravisD: did someone steal your irc client? or make you colorblind?
14:18	TravisD	amalloy: No, I use colloquy which supports different themes. I really like one theme for how it formats messages, but I used to use another theme which had coloured nicks. I can probably splice the two together somehow, but I didn't want to bother
14:18	TravisD	maybe I will do that this afternoon...
14:18	sdegutis	TravisD: try out LimeChat
14:19	sdegutis	its simpler yet more powerful than colloquy
14:19	TravisD	sdegutis: Ah, cool, I'll check it out. I was under the impression that colloquy was the de-facto standard mac IRC client
14:19	sdegutis	it was once written almost entirely in MacRuby. then the author at one point must have realized thats a terrible idea, so he rewrote it all in objC
14:20	sdegutis	TravisD: among mac-fanboys yes, since its so shiny.
14:20	TravisD	I like shiny things :)
14:20	TravisD	It's been crashing a lot lately, though.
14:20	bbloom	I use Textual, seems to work fine
14:20	sdegutis	TravisD: shiny things are indeed nice when they work
14:21	TravisD	bbloom: but it's not free! :(
14:21	`cbp	the only free irc client is obviously erc
14:22	TravisD_	Oh man, this limechat business is weird
14:22	bbloom	TravisD: it's 5 bucks and there is a demo
14:22	bbloom	TravisD: if you like it, spend the 5 bucks
14:22	sdegutis	plus im pretty sure LimeChat (free & open source) beats the heck out of Textual in terms of features
14:22	sdegutis	(and simplicity)
14:22	Jahkeup	+1 for LimeChat
14:22	sdegutis	i wonder if textual is a sig source of income for them
14:23	sdegutis	there's also http://conceited.net/products/linkinus
14:24	TravisD_	I might give limechat a try. Are there more themes than it comes with by default?
14:24	sdegutis	yeah
14:25	TravisD_	Can I get it to confirm my nick automatically?
14:25	TravisD_	one sec.
14:25	sdegutis	yea
14:25	technomancy	erc's nick highlighting normalizes for trailing punctuation <3
14:25	technomancy	(thanks to leathekd)
14:26	benmoss	limechat is weirdd
14:28	TravisD	Anyways, sorry for the off-topic nonsense. Is there a place to discuss this sort of thing that's not the main channel, like #not-clojure?
14:28	justin_smith	#clojure-social?
14:29	sdegutis	Yeah #clojure-social
14:30	TravisD	great, thanks :)
14:43	borkdude	I just had a conversation with Erik Meijer. He bashed Clojure today in favor of Scala :P
14:43	borkdude	just jokingly though
14:44	bbloom	borkdude: on what grounds?
14:45	borkdude	bbloom it wasn't really serious, but he's more in favor of a type system that helps him so he can program without thinking ;)
14:46	borkdude	he presented something about his Rx implementation
14:48	bbloom	borkdude: shrug i like some of his work, but i don't have positive things to say about either programming without thinking or Rx :-P
14:51	sdegutis	borkdude: i do enjoy typesystems that are integrated nicely into an IDE, they help tremendously in my productivity
14:51	sdegutis	although that may be more of a statement about how unproductive i am on my own?
14:51	borkdude	he spoke about covariants and contravariants of getters and setters
14:51	borkdude	:-S
14:51	sdegutis	oh.
14:52	koalallama	sdegutis: I feel the same way.
14:53	bbloom	accessors: a bad idea to solve problems caused by other bad ideas
14:53	justin_smith	(inc bbloom)
14:53	lazybot	⇒ 30
14:53	borkdude	I asked him, don't you think creating a class for each kind of data is anti code reuse?
14:54	sdegutis	(dinc bbloom)
14:54	borkdude	He mentioned something about traits in Scala, but I don't know Scala enough to judge if that takes away this pain
14:55	bbloom	borkdude: traits are a slightly less theoretically problematic version of mixins, which are wildly problematic in both theory and practice
14:55	borkdude	or extension methods
14:55	bbloom	extension methods are a syntax convenience, essentially
14:55	borkdude	I know them from C#
14:55	bbloom	so extension methods actually do add a little bit of actual expressivity
14:55	bbloom	b/c they are dispatched by type, so in that sense they can be seen as a form of return type polymorphism
14:56	bbloom	but most of the time, that little subtly of the spec is ignored
14:56	bbloom	and ppl just use them as free functions with . notation convenience
14:56	borkdude	right
14:56	bbloom	the static polymorphism aspect is totally lost on most people
14:57	bbloom	interestingly, people had asked the C# folks for extension methods for a while but the design team was like "fuck that".... until they needed the static polymorphism for Linq
14:58	bbloom	ppl just wanted the syntax tho
14:58	whilo	i am trying to debug my core.async channels, which proves difficult and confuses me by undetermined behaviour.
14:59	whilo	i have tried to build a wrapper to log values on channels: https://gist.github.com/ghubber/9418732
14:59	whilo	but it doesn't work, only some values get through
15:00	sdegutis	bbloom: it does rock tho
15:00	whilo	any ideas or tipps of how to properly track connections and values in complex system?
15:00	bbloom	sdegutis: linq? yeah linq is super cool
15:01	sdegutis	bbloom: i meant ext methods but yeah linq too
15:01	sdegutis	as close to clojure.core as a static lang can polly get?
15:01	bbloom	sdegutis: you can just do what rich does: make a class called something small like RT and just load it up with static functions
15:02	sdegutis	thx
15:02	bbloom	i did a java project that was like 5k lines of code, and only 3 classes. one of them was just a giant static function bag. some java guru reviewing it was like "what the fuck is this!??!" but meanwhile it was dramatically faster than what he had, so he was like "shrug ok i guess"
15:03	dnolen_	whilo: that's not going to work how you expect if someone else gets a reference to c.
15:03	dnolen_	whilo: c needs to already be mult'ed
15:05	whilo	dnolen_: if i create the channel and mult it first before i return it, it should work?
15:05	bbloom	sdegutis: actually, i'm cheating a bit. there were also google protobufs, which i used like i use clojure maps... so i guess there may have been 50+ actual "classes" at runtime
15:05	dnolen_	whilo: yes
15:05	whilo	dnolen_: thx!
15:06	abp	bbloom: Oh wow, i did an android project with mostly static functions, arrays and hashmaps at time. the guy who took it over immediatly started refactoring into tons of classes. because you don't use static.
15:06	whilo	dnolen_: are there debugging concept like auto-generated network-diagrams where you can follow values in general (e.g. erlang) or how do people debug channels?
15:06	bbloom	abp: and i'm sure his program is now slower, more code, and harder to debug
15:07	sdegutis	abp: did you have static variables for persistent state?
15:07	bbloom	yeah, static variables are the problem, not static functions
15:07	borkdude	state?
15:07	clojurebot	you're doing it wrong!
15:07	bbloom	although your static functions need to be pure
15:07	abp	sdegutis: nope, static methods for mostly querying, data transformation etc.
15:08	dnolen_	whilo: no debugging tools visual or otherwise that I'm aware of, would be useful.
15:09	abp	bbloom: don't know if it got slower but more code for sure
15:09	whilo	dnolen_: ok, thx
15:09	gtrak	bbloom: just blame your old C tendencies instead of your new lispy ones
15:09	bbloom	abp: at minimum, it used a fuckton more memory :-P
15:09	abp	bbloom: yeah, just what androids gc likes ;)
15:21	jonasen	stuartsierra: dnolen_: a new version of GClosure Compiler was released a week ago: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/closure-compiler-discuss/f1lee2eThlg/HPZvnoWh1ncJ
15:21	dnolen_	jonasen: we were actually talking about the Closure Library
15:22	jonasen	dnolen_: oh, sorry
15:23	stuartsierra	jonasen, dnolen_: Google used to release JARs to Maven Central for closure-compiler. Last one was 2013-10-14
15:23	jonasen	stuartsierra: this has been discussed on the closure-compiler mailing list
15:24	stuartsierra	And?
15:24	jonasen	stuartsierra: let me see if I can find it
15:24	stuartsierra	10 cents says Google doesn't care.
15:27	jonasen	stuartsierra: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/closure-compiler-discuss/G9y8oUGnZ58/_-UM3lhMPwgJ
15:28	jonasen	stuartsierra: and one from january https://groups.google.com/d/msg/closure-compiler-discuss/NXokuM4gpws/1SuKqVmGPKIJ
15:30	stuartsierra	Summary: the one guy who used to do it got busy
15:30	stuartsierra	with other things.
15:30	stuartsierra	So that's going to become ANOTHER dependency we have to package.
15:30	stuartsierra	FML
15:32	stcredzero	Best practices for logging exceptions?
15:35	stuartsierra	Some folks want to test these G.Closure lib releases out for me?
15:36	stcredzero	Anyone want to stress-test the beginnings of a Clojure MMO? http://casterly.publicvm.com
15:36	stuartsierra	I'll have repo URLs in a minute
15:41	stuartsierra	New G.Closure library release available for testing https://gist.github.com/stuartsierra/9419597
15:41	stuartsierra	Please validate.
15:42	stcredzero	So who else is in http://casterly.publicvm.com ?
15:42	jcromartie	I have been in there three times
15:42	jcromartie	in no
15:42	jcromartie	now
15:42	dnolen_	stuartsierra: does the new release include third party now?
15:43	stuartsierra	dnolen_: no, it's a dependency as before
15:43	stcredzero	Well, no crashes yet (MMO)
15:43	dnolen_	stuartsierra: in your gist you're not including it?
15:43	stuartsierra	dnolen_: It's a dependency.
15:43	stuartsierra	i.e. automatic
15:43	dnolen_	stuartsierra: but of what?
15:44	stuartsierra	third-party is a dependency of closure-library
15:44	dnolen_	stuartsierra: k
15:44	stuartsierra	Which reflects the relationships in the JavaScript source.
15:44	dnolen_	stuartsierra: didn't realize that, thought it would be the other way around
15:45	stuartsierra	Yes, one would expect that.
15:46	stuartsierra	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-418 if you want the ugly truth
15:46	dnolen_	stuartsierra: thanks for putting this together, trying it out now
15:47	stuartsierra	The real reason for the separation is different licenses. But it's virtually impossible to use gclosure-library without -third-party.
15:51	whilo	dnolen_: this also works only partially, not sure why, values are put on the channels with pub-sub fns. https://gist.github.com/ghubber/9418732
15:55	dnolen_	whilo: you're returning the non-mult'ed original channel
15:56	whilo	dnolen_: if i return a mult'ed channel, will pushes to it propagate? the mult concept is not totally clear to me, also not through core.async source
15:57	dnolen_	whilo: this just doesn't seem like the right way to do this. debug-chan should take a mult'ed channel, don't bother trying to encapsulate that part at all.
15:57	whilo	ok
15:58	dnolen_	whilo: if you want to debug you need to construct a mult'ed channel and everyone else that wants to read from it needs to tap it.
15:59	`cbp	:-D
15:59	whilo	dnolen_: ok, this makes debugging non-transparent, i hoped i could have something like a logged channel, which otherwise behaves like a normal channel, so you can deactivate in production
15:59	dnolen_	whilo: which basically means debug-chan really isn't going to be all that useful.
16:00	whilo	right
16:05	hiredman	wouldn't debug-chan take a channel and return a channel, when debugging it takes a channel and returns a new channel, spinning up a go block to copy values from the channel passed in to the channel returned, printing in between or something, and in production it is just identity?
16:05	dnolen_	stuartsierra: k, tested a Om+core.async program still works and I get access goog.async.nextTick which is new
16:06	dnolen_	stuartsierra: sanity checking the REPL now
16:06	TravisD	If I want to make a pair of two values, what clojure structure has the least overhead?
16:07	stuartsierra	dnolen_: Great. If you happen to know something that depends on third-party and can check it, that would be helpful too.
16:07	dnolen_	TravisD: vector is pretty darn fast
16:07	dnolen_	stuartsierra: browser REPL does, checking it now
16:07	whilo	hiredman: that was my idea
16:07	stuartsierra	cool
16:10	hiredman	whilo: I see, so what is this mutl and tap stuff about then?
16:11	whilo	hiredman: you need mult to create copies of a channel. then you give the mult to tap to copy all values from the mult to a target channel
16:12	hiredman	whilo: you don't need any of that
16:12	hiredman	whilo: you need two channels a go "thread"
16:18	whilo	hiredman: i have no idea how to write into that thing transparently, here is the code i am currently working on: https://github.com/ghubber/geschichte/blob/master/src/clj/geschichte/sync.clj#L148
16:19	hiredman	(loop [] (>! chan2 (doto (<! chan1) prn)) (recur))
16:20	hiredman	simplest possible one way copy
16:22	dnolen_	stuartsierra: browser REPL appears to still work with latest Closure deps (there are some warnings, but these are unrelated analyzer issues far as I can tell).
16:23	TravisD	Is there a protocol that one can implement to make a type seqable?
16:23	stuartsierra	dnolen_: OK, thanks. I could just release this as-is, or post to the mailing list and ask for more testers. Any preference?
16:23	llasram	TravisD: clojure.lang.Seqable (JVM)?
16:23	llasram	Oh, protocol
16:23	stuartsierra	This is a new release build script, so I'm slightly more cautious.
16:24	llasram	TravisD: No -- interface on the JVM alas
16:24	dnolen_	stuartsierra: I would post to ML.
16:24	stuartsierra	dnolen_: OK, sounds good.
16:24	TravisD	llasram: Ah, okay, thanks :)
16:29	whilo	hiredman: i am not worried about a simple copy, i want a transparent copy. your code touches the original channel and unblocks it. can you give me a channel which logs its values, but otherwise behaves like a single (chan)? with two channels it is no big problem
16:29	whilo	(i mean exposing two channels, but i basically want to monitor a channel)
16:30	whilo	maybe i miss something obvious, not sure
16:31	hiredman	whilo: if you want it to be transparent I think you'll have to implement the channel protocols, depending on when you want the logging to happen, on publish, on recieve, etc you can reify the channel protocols log, and then dispatch to a real channel under the hood
16:32	whilo	ok, not sure what is the best way to debug stuff like that. first i wanted to have a simple switch to monitor single channels, that's all
16:32	whilo	i also had a look at the source to reimplement a log-channel.
16:33	whilo	it is just that i shoot myself with dynamically creating and wiring channels atm. and am stuck, so i need a better idea of what is going on
16:33	malyn	whilo: Would mult and tap work? http://clojure.github.io/core.async/#clojure.core.async/tap
16:34	whilo	malyn: i tried to https://gist.github.com/ghubber/9418732 but i don't know how this could work out
16:36	whilo	malyn: also it doesn't work XD
16:36	sdegutis	The state of Clojure IDEs is becoming increasingly fragmented, especially with the arrival of NightCode, LightTable, and Cursive Clojure.
16:37	jcromartie	I don't mind, since the IDE choice rarely impacts anybody outside of an individual developer's decision.
16:37	jcromartie	so long as there's a project.clj, I can use anything I want
16:37	jcromartie	and so can you
16:38	dnolen_	whilo: if you want it to be transparent, implementing the channel protocols is the only way to make it work
16:38	malyn	whilo: Details, details... :) I wonder if you have to return a tap instead of the original channel? I haven't used mult/tap yet.
16:38	sdegutis	True, but the fragmentation means those brilliant minds are not working together, but if they were, they could probably make something 3 times as good.
16:38	dnolen_	whilo: as hiredman said
16:39	aconbere	anyone use nippy here?
16:39	aconbere	I'm seeing a weird issue in a long running process
16:39	aconbere	where after maybe 24 hours it wont thaw any data
16:39	aconbere	restarting the process magically fixes the issue
16:40	technomancy	sdegutis: try my product http://p.hagelb.org/clojurewest-2014.org.html
16:41	TravisD	Is there a rationale behind why clojure does not have a zip function (defn zip-with [f as bs] (map f as bs)) (defn zip [as bs] (zip-with vector as bs))? I miss these functions from Haskell, and I think they are clearer than the map alternatives
16:42	sdegutis	TravisD: it's built into map
16:42	hiredman	TravisD: map can take multiple seqs
16:42	sdegutis	TravisD: ##(map + [1 2 3] [4 5 6])
16:42	lazybot	⇒ (5 7 9)
16:42	hiredman	,(map vector (range 10) (range 10))
16:42	clojurebot	([0 0] [1 1] [2 2] [3 3] [4 4] ...)
16:42	TravisD	Hmm, yes, I use that fact in my possible implementation
16:42	sdegutis	Yay I won that one.
16:42	hiredman	map is zip-with
16:42	sdegutis	TravisD: Then isn't your implementation inherently obsolete?
16:43	TravisD	Yes, but I personally find the term "zip" more interpretable. It makes it clear that you're combining several seqs
16:43	TravisD	I guess that is not enough to include it in the language, though
16:43	sdegutis	TravisD: #(def zip map)
16:44	sdegutis	TravisD: ##(def zip map)
16:44	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! def is bad!
16:44	sdegutis	Aww
16:44	TravisD	sdegutis: should be (def zip (partial map vector))
16:44	sdegutis	TravisD: looks good
16:44	stuartsierra	OK posted release to 'clojurescript' mailing list.
16:45	TravisD	hiredman: so it is. I didn't really notice that until you mentioned it
16:46	TravisD	hiredman: Even given my implementation of zip-with :P
16:48	stuartsierra	And 'clojure' mailing list.
16:53	isaacbw	how are there no official hoodies? D:
16:56	ToBeReplaced	is there a lib/script that tries to convert a jar to clojure namespaces? ex. i want to work with java.nio.file without needing to type-hint
16:57	isaacbw	,'(a . b)
16:57	clojurebot	(a . b)
16:58	ToBeReplaced	seems like there's a lot of wrapper libraries (clj-time, fs, as examples) that don't provide (much) extra functionality, but i'd still like to be able to (require '[java.nio.file.Files :refer [create-directory]])
17:02	noonian	this might help: https://github.com/juergenhoetzel/clj-nio2
17:02	noonian	but otherwise you will need to use java interop an import java.nio.file.Files instead of require and .createDirectory
17:04	stcredzero	So, for exception logging clojure.tools.logging is perfectly cromulent?
17:04	ToBeReplaced	noonian: yeah... it's not hard to write a quick wrapper -- was wondering if someone wrote something to auto-generate a wrapper
17:05	ToBeReplaced	noonian: it's not always possible... and there would be a speed hiccup... so it's probably just not useful... i haven't thought it through at all
17:06	noonian	hmm, would be a fun project though, scrape javadocs and generate clojure library wrappers for them, idk how useful it'd be
17:07	jcromartie	noonian: I don't see the point. The Clojure/Java interop is already nice. And to make a more Clojure-friendly library takes thought.
17:08	hiredman	there was this lesser known object store with a vaguely rest api we had to use for work, I wrote a html documentation -> clojure code compiler/transformer/whatever for it
17:08	jcromartie	noonian: Also you can use reflection to iterate over the classes/interfaces/methods. So no need to scrape the javadocs. Maybe start form there.
17:08	hiredman	it was neat
17:08	noonian	jcromartie: good point
17:08	hiredman	then the company that backed the object store went out of бизнес
17:16	hiredman	anyway, clojure is great for all kinds of code generation, compilers, interpreters, etc
17:16	hiredman	etl jobs :)
17:16	akyte	But startup time.
17:17	hiredman	shrug
17:17	hiredman	there are more interpreters, compilers, and code generators than those in a scripting languages runtime
17:23	isaacbw	is anyone here planning to do the quil idea for clojurescript?
17:23	technomancy	quil needs a rewrite
17:23	technomancy	it's super imperative =\
17:23	TravisD	Does anyone know of an efficient implementation of sparse vectors?
17:25	aconbere	efficient for what?
17:25	TravisD	aconbere: Computing inner products with other sparse vectors and dense vectors
17:25	TravisD	and all the vectorspace operations
17:26	aconbere	and these are presumable very large sparse vectors? so you're primarily concerned with memory efficiency?
17:27	TravisD	aconbere: Actually, the main thing I want is for the inner products to scale with the number of non-zero entries
17:28	TravisD	the space savings is nice, too
17:28	TravisD	but the vectors are not so large that they wouldn't fit in memory, or anything
17:29	aconbere	hmmm, I'm not sure I have anything immediately in my bag of tricks
17:29	aconbere	I could come up with a few ideas
17:29	aconbere	but I would have to just write up a test case and try them out
17:29	aconbere	:-/
17:29	TravisD	A good representation is as a list of [index value] pairs, sorted by index
17:30	TravisD	all the operations can be implemented efficiently for this representation, but I'm wondering if someone has already done it :)
17:30	aconbere	heh
17:30	arrdem	TravisD: if it isn't blatantly part of core.matrix already I doubt it
17:30	isaacbw	does nbeloglazov hang out in irc?
17:31	isaacbw	(the quil author)
17:31	arrdem	$seen nbeloglazov
17:31	lazybot	nbeloglazov was last seen quitting 8 weeks ago.
17:31	arrdem	isaacbw: I'll take that for a no
17:31	isaacbw	ah well
17:31	isaacbw	technomancy: so how would that rewrite happen?
17:31	isaacbw	a fork?
17:32	TravisD	arrdem: Is there somewhere to see the api of core.matrix? I couldn't find one after a quick search
17:32	arrdem	I may have the lib name wrong it's been a while.
17:32	TravisD	arrdem: I think matrix.core is right
17:32	TravisD	there was a github page
17:32	technomancy	isaacbw: sam mentioned plans to try to make things more functional in quil 2
17:33	technomancy	isaacbw: the API needs to look more like racket's functional image handling features
17:33	arrdem	TravisD: yeah so there's c.m but I think there's another good matrix library floating around. name escapes me :c
17:34	isaacbw	technomancy: hmm, so if I took on the quil->clojurescript project suggested in the GSoC ideas page, which API would make the most sense to target? The current quil API, or some new undefined API
17:34	arrdem	TravisD: this is the one you want https://github.com/clojure-numerics/core.matrix
17:34	llasram	arrdem: Are you think if clatrix, which uses jblas?
17:35	llasram	(and which core.matrix can use as a backend)
17:35	technomancy	isaacbw: personally I don't think quil1->cljs makes sense, but the maintainer might feel otherwise
17:35	technomancy	I think quil2 on the JVM should take priority
17:35	isaacbw	is it the API that's too imperative, or the implementation? Or both?
17:36	technomancy	I think the implementation has to be imperative behind the scenes
17:36	arrdem	llasram: I don't think that was it. I'm about 80% I was in fact thinking of numerics/core.matrix. the other 20% is offline.
17:37	llasram	haha
17:37	llasram	ok
17:38	isaacbw	technomancy: cool, thanks for the input. I'll send the maintainer an email and see what his goals are
17:38	llasram	TravisD: Oh, sparse vectors. Yeah -- the core.matrix API is vaguely aware of them, but none of the available backends provide them (last I checked)
17:38	isaacbw	on a similar note, do you folks have any additional ideas for good GSoC projects that aren't listed in the ideas page? http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Project+Ideas
17:38	TravisD	llasram: Ah, alright :) That's too bad
17:38	llasram	TravisD: Mahout has okay sparse vector and matrix implementations, if you aren't adverse to some Java interop
17:39	arrdem	TravisD: if you aren't, please leave a core.matrix backend for the rest of us <3
17:40	TravisD	arrdem: I'll have to look at the support core.matrix requires. It might be considerably more than I need for my own project :D
17:40	llasram	I've got most of a core.matrix backend which uses Mahout sparse impls... I just need to find the time to finish it
17:41	llasram	And have needed to so-do for like 4 months
17:41	llasram	So, there's that
17:41	arrdem	's ok I have a PR on Loom that's been awaiting a rework since October :P
17:46	gfredericks	is there a reason that leiningen can't use classloader tricks to run on a single jvm?
17:46	gfredericks	is it possible to have two versions of clojure running?
17:46	technomancy	gfredericks: :eval-in :classloader
17:46	technomancy	doesn't work all that well
17:46	bob2	note: breaks jetty in a bizarre way
17:47	gfredericks	interesting, thanks
17:48	isaacbw	ah yea, technomancy
17:48	isaacbw	I see what you mean about quil
18:06	rurumate	is there an easy way to have a history of repl, like in bash
18:06	rurumate	or shell
18:12	dnolen_	rurumate: pretty sure lein repl already does this for you
18:18	justin_smith	rurumate: with lein repl it will use the readline history mechanism, if you have rlwrap installed (it uses readline via rlwrap if it finds it) http://linux.die.net/man/1/rlwrap
18:18	technomancy	gfredericks: afaik the weirdness of :eval-in :classloader is due to it being lightly tested rather than any inherent weirdness in using classloaders
18:19	justin_smith	rurumate: for the command foo, readline creates the file ~/.foo_history
18:19	justin_smith	(or maybe rlwrap creates it, one of those)
18:20	technomancy	rlwrap is only used by lein1
18:20	technomancy	was
18:20	justin_smith	oh, my bad
18:20	justin_smith	what does lein2 use?
18:20	technomancy	justin_smith: uses jline2 in-process
18:21	technomancy	it's a pretty good port, but not foolproof
18:23	justin_smith	more to the point, does jline2 have a history mechanism?
18:24	justin_smith	otherwise I guess "rlwrap lein <args>" would be an option
18:24	technomancy	find ~/src -name .lein-repl-history
18:37	whilo	hiredman, malyn, dnolen_: just for reference, i have got it to work for me with this hack: https://github.com/ghubber/geschichte/blob/master/src/clj/geschichte/debug_channels.clj
18:38	whilo	everything is taken from async except for the two swaps and the pass-through of the logging stuff
19:12	cherukan	hi
19:12	chare	amalloy I am reading chapter 6 of programming clojure
19:13	cherukan	newbie question - I have two books on my shortlist - Clojure in Action, Joy of Clojure - which one do you recommend? (I know java)
19:13	isaacbw	cherukan: I just bought JoC and I love it so far
19:13	amalloy	JoC
19:13	arrdem	JoC
19:14	chare	why joc?
19:16	cherukan	Seems unanimous( ? ) - thanks
19:16	systemfault	Hmm.. how is your knowledge of Java going to be of any help with Clojure?
19:17	systemfault	Yeah, JoC is great... chapters can be boring at times.
19:17	technomancy	systemfault: depends on what you're going to be writing
19:18	cherukan	systemfault: Just mentioned that so I dont need to know pitfalls of java again
19:39	TravisD	I am representing sparse vectors as lists of [index value] pairs. Does it make sense to use (defrecord SparseVector [entries]) for the purpose of multimethod dispatching?
19:40	TravisD	I could also use a dispatch function that looks something like (comp coll? first)
19:40	justin_smith	TravisD: depends, how often would you use a sparse vector and regular vector as args at different times to the same function?
19:40	TravisD	justin_smith: quite often
19:40	hiredman	TravisD: use a map, not a list
19:41	TravisD	hiredman: I don't follow
19:41	TravisD	hiredman: Ah, I do now
19:41	TravisD	hiredman: If the lists are sorted, I believe there should be less overhead than if using a hashmap
19:42	justin_smith	hiredman: are you thinking a map like {:type "sparse-vector" 1 ... 2 ...} or am I missing something here?
19:42	hiredman	consider a sorted map
19:42	TravisD	justin_smith: He's saying that sparse vectors should be represented as maps from indices to values, instead of association lists, like I was proposing
19:42	justin_smith	ahh, right
19:42	justin_smith	yeah, alists are usually the wrong idea
19:43	hiredman	I never used clojure's sorted collections, so I never remember how the built in ones work, I think they are sorted based on keys, not insertion order
19:43	TravisD	hiredman: I think they are a suitable representation for this problem. I don't actually know how sorted maps work in functional languages
19:43	justin_smith	hiredman: yeah, there is sorted-set-by I think
19:44	justin_smith	(otherwise it is the default comparator like you get with sort)
19:44	justin_smith	,(sorted-set 3 1 2 5 8 99 0 2 22)
19:44	clojurebot	#{0 1 2 3 5 ...}
19:44	TravisD	It's easy to write all the operations so that they return index-sorted alists
19:44	justin_smith	the problem with alists is the lookup side
19:44	hiredman	,(doc sorted-map)
19:44	clojurebot	"([& keyvals]); keyval => key val Returns a new sorted map with supplied mappings. If any keys are equal, they are handled as if by repeated uses of assoc."
19:45	TravisD	Hmm, actually, with hashmaps I guess the cost of most operations will scale with the number of non-zero elements in the sparser of the two vectors
19:46	justin_smith	,(sorted-map 1 :a 8 :b 2 :c)
19:46	clojurebot	{1 :a, 2 :c, 8 :b}
19:46	TravisD	while using alists, you will always have to traverse the longer of the two
19:46	TravisD	actually, maybe not.
19:46	justin_smith	depends if you need to do random lookup
19:46	TravisD	yes
19:46	TravisD	hm, some weird trade offs
19:47	justin_smith	what is your objection to a map? that it is too expensive in space / time / ?
19:48	TravisD	justin_smith: Yeah, there are tradeoffs between using an alist and a map
19:49	TravisD	I thought alists were strictly faster for the operations I want to implement, but it's not true
19:49	justin_smith	the slow lookup on alist way outpaces any speed costs on a map
19:49	TravisD	justin_smith: It depends on what you're doing
19:52	TravisD	Can you traverse sorted maps in the order of their keys?
19:52	justin_smith	yes, by calling seq on it
19:52	justin_smith	which is cheap, because it is sorted already
19:52	hiredman	TravisD: for sorted maps
19:53	TravisD	And what is the cost of building a sorted map with n entries, if I already have them sorted by key
19:53	hiredman	the sorted maps are a redblack tree
19:54	hiredman	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/PersistentTreeMap.java
19:54	TravisD	so presumably it's n log n to construct, even if the elements are already sorted?
19:55	amalloy	TravisD: usually when inserting into a binary search tree, already-sorted input is the worst case
19:55	TravisD	amalloy: Ah
19:56	amalloy	because it requires the most rebalance operations
19:56	hiredman	I think it is log n, not n log n
19:56	TravisD	hiredman: how is that possible? Certainly you must at least read all of the elements
19:56	amalloy	hiredman: well he's inserting n things
19:56	hiredman	ah, sure
19:57	isaacbw	anyone have GSoC ideas aside from the stuff in the ideas page?
19:58	TravisD	Anyways, I think with a-lists I can write all the operations I need, and they will cost O(max(n, m)), where n and m are the number of nonzero components of the two vectors respectively. I think that using sorted maps, you'll depend on O(min(n,m)) most of the time, but potentially with some pesky log factors
19:59	TravisD	well, that doesn't do it justice. Sorry for the rambling
19:59	TravisD	I'll just work it out
19:59	justin_smith	are you doing more construction ops, or more lookups?
20:00	justin_smith	if construction >= lookup a list is probably better, given they are generated in order already
20:00	TravisD	justin_smith: I almost never need to do lookups. But, for example, computing inner products can look like lookups or traversals, so which structure is better depends a lot on the vectors you're using
20:01	TravisD	I'm also realizing that I can just implement all of these things and then benchmark later :)
20:02	justin_smith	yup, criterium rarely lies
20:02	gfredericks	it gave me a negative result once
20:04	justin_smith	well clearly, you should run whatever code triggered that, repeatedly, in order to give your other code more time to execute
20:04	justin_smith	should boost performance all around
20:05	TravisD	amalloy: Are there more efficient ways to construct a binary search tree, given that you know the data is already sorted?
20:05	TravisD	seems like there should be
20:06	amalloy	it should be possible, yes. i don't know any implementations that expose that operation, though
20:10	TravisD	Heh, if you don't care about constant factors and such an algorithm exists, when constructing a binary search tree from a list of elements you could check if the list was sorted and then call the appropriate method
20:10	TravisD	then the worst case would become nearly sorted lists :P lol
20:11	isaacbw	would writing a D3 library for clojurescript be worth a GSoC project?
20:11	amalloy	don't those already exist, isaacbw?
20:11	justin_smith	I saw a small proof of concept
20:11	isaacbw	ah, looks like there's C2
20:12	amalloy	like c2 or strokes
20:12	isaacbw	how about a more general question: would writing a new library for the Clojure ecosystem be worthy of a GSoC project, or is it generaly for things in core or contrib
20:13	justin_smith	"C2 is a very early project, and there’s a lot left to do. If you are interested in contributing, ping @lynaghk on the Github."
20:13	TravisD	Ah, for those interested, it looks like the C++ boost library implements both types of sparse vector that we're talking about.
20:13	justin_smith	linked list and hashmap are both available?
20:14	technomancy	isaacbw: I think for a brand-new project you'd b every likely to underestimate how far you can get in a summer
20:14	TravisD	http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_35_0/libs/numeric/ublas/doc/vector_sparse.htm#coordinate_vector
20:14	technomancy	*be very
20:14	isaacbw	technomancy: but working on an established project outside of clojure itself is kosher?
20:14	technomancy	overestimate, I mean
20:15	TravisD	justin_smith: they have both "Mapped vectors" and "Compressed vectors", which are essentially the two representations we were talking about
20:15	technomancy	isaacbw: people working under an existing project are a lot more likely to accomplish their goals I think
20:19	TravisD	justin_smith: Also, strangely, it looks like sparse vectors are always represented using a-lists (essentially) in BLAS
20:22	justin_smith	TravisD: linked list based or array based alist?
20:23	TravisD	justin_smith: not clear from the documentation I was looking at. Probably array-based, I would guess
20:23	TravisD	they said they store two "vectors", one containing values and the other containing indices
20:24	justin_smith	OK. yeah an array of indexes you can binary search on
20:24	justin_smith	unlike a linked list (which is what a clojure list is)
20:24	akurilin2	I have a silly question: if you're building a server-side templated (w/ Selmer in my case) non-MVC site, where do you place the JS for each individual page? Do you just add a <script> into each template file?
20:25	justin_smith	akurilin2: the pattern we always use here is a layout.html partial
20:25	TravisD	Yeah. Although, the same doc I was looking at seemed to indicate that the list of indices need not be sorted. Which sounds insane to me
20:25	TravisD	Maybe it's not a reputable source :)
20:25	justin_smith	and then the contents of each page are injected into the middle of layout.html
20:25	justin_smith	any js used by every page will be referenced in layout.html
20:26	justin_smith	I forget what the term is for an inside-out partial like that (that surrounds your content rather than being inserted into it)
20:27	amalloy	TravisD: are you implementing alists in clojure or something? i can't figure out the context
20:27	akurilin2	justin_smith: so right now I have a base template with head/body, containing a toolbars template, which contains the actual inner site pages. So you're saying, do NOT place <script> inside of the individual inner site pages?
20:28	justin_smith	akurilin2: well depends if the script is used on every page
20:28	TravisD	amalloy: Ah, I'm trying to decide how to implement sparse vectors. The two competing representations are as a sorted association list, and as a map of some kind
20:28	TravisD	amalloy: The operations I want to implement are scaling, vector addition, and inner product
20:28	akurilin2	justin_smith: I have a script that's on every page that's just referenced from the base layout, I think that's what you were referring to. I'm talking about a per-page script though.
20:29	justin_smith	ahh right
20:29	justin_smith	akurilin2: we usually put those at the foot of the individual files
20:29	justin_smith	I forget why, but that makes them easy to find
20:30	akurilin2	justin_smith: ok so that's what I was thinking of doing, thanks for sanity-confirming.
20:30	akurilin2	Ugh feels kind of hacky after working with MVCs for a bit
20:30	akurilin2	but I guess that's what people used to do
20:30	akurilin2	Or still do :P
20:31	justin_smith	hey, maybe we're both being total hacks now, let me know if you find a better solution
20:31	justin_smith	we have this idea for asset pipelines where the scripts needed on each page would be part of the pipeline, but that's kinda MVC
20:32	Nyyx	is there already a function like this? #(if (nil? %1) %2 %1)
20:32	justin_smith	or
20:32	amalloy	Nyyx: (or a b)
20:32	justin_smith	(which is a macro)
20:33	justin_smith	there is also fnil
20:33	Nyyx	oh I didn't realize it returned the original value
20:33	Nyyx	thought it was true/false
20:33	Nyyx	fnil only works on arguments
20:33	justin_smith	,(map (fnil identity :default) [:a 0 nil])
20:33	clojurebot	(:a 0 :default)
20:33	justin_smith	,(map (fnil identity :default) [:a 0 nil false])
20:34	clojurebot	(:a 0 :default false)
20:34	justin_smith	if you need to preserve false, don't use or
20:34	akurilin2	justin_smith: we have a bajillion of frontend gurus on this channel, I'm just going to wait for them to open a can of wisdom on me
20:35	justin_smith	akurilin2: heh, we'll both be enlightened
20:35	Nyyx	,((fnil identity :default) (get {} :non-existant))
20:35	clojurebot	:default
20:36	justin_smith	,(get {} :non-existant :default)
20:36	clojurebot	:default
20:36	justin_smith	that's why get has an extra arg!
20:36	Nyyx	:O
20:36	justin_smith	,(:non-existant {} :default)
20:36	clojurebot	:default
20:36	justin_smith	even better :)
20:36	Nyyx	I really should read all the doc strings
20:36	Nyyx	I only know book explanations of what they do
20:36	Nyyx	skimps on details
20:37	justin_smith	you should have mentioned you were using get, we could have sorted this out much sooner
20:37	Nyyx	well still very helpful to know (or ) works like ruby
20:37	amalloy	justin_smith: well, i think it's reasonable for him to not realize that get is an important part of the question
20:38	justin_smith	sure, I almost added a :) there
20:38	justin_smith	,(:existant {:existant nil} :default)
20:38	clojurebot	nil
20:38	justin_smith	the one gotcha - if you consider it a gotcha
20:48	akurilin2	justin_smith: the other piece that feels hacky to me is that all of our .js files are assumed to be selmer templates, so by default I funnell every .js file through selmer with a set of basic parameters like domain name, to build the right <a href> links depending on the environment
20:49	akurilin2	I know some of this is going to be bite me in the ass at some point :P
20:49	TravisD	On clojure maps, is count a constant time operation?
20:50	justin_smith	O(1)
20:50	justin_smith	(or so says the book "Clojure High Performance Programming" - recommended if you have these sorts of questions by the way)
20:50	TravisD	cool, thanks. Is it documented anywhere outside of a book?
20:51	bbloom	(doc counted?)
20:51	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns true if coll implements count in constant time"
20:51	bbloom	(counted? {})
20:51	bbloom	,(counted? {})
20:51	clojurebot	true
20:51	justin_smith	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1273729/what-is-the-time-complexity-of-count-function-in-clojure
20:51	TravisD	oh cool
20:51	akurilin2	(this is the part someone says "it's documented by reading the source")
20:51	bbloom	(doc count)
20:51	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns the number of items in the collection. (count nil) returns 0. Also works on strings, arrays, and Java Collections and Maps"
20:51	TravisD	akurilin2: I was expecting that, actually, lol
20:52	bbloom	the doc string for clojure.core/count really should mention counted
20:52	TravisD	yeah, that would be nice
20:55	Nyyx	,(counted? [])
20:55	clojurebot	true
20:55	amalloy	i like to sneak in sequences that implement Counted but take exponential time to do it
20:55	bbloom	,(counted? (list))
20:55	clojurebot	true
20:55	bbloom	,(counted? (lazy-seq))
20:55	clojurebot	false
20:56	bbloom	amalloy: you monster.
20:56	bbloom	amalloy: i feel like i've said that to you before...
20:57	amalloy	i think usually it's me accusing someone of monstrosity
20:57	technomancy	~guards
20:57	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
20:57	TravisD	Is there a way to open the documentation for an interface from the repl?
20:57	Nyyx	how does list return count in constant time?
20:58	Nyyx	there is a constant that keeps track of it in the list implementation?
20:58	TravisD	Nyyx: Seems like there should be, but it also seems wasteful to store the length of every sublist
20:58	amalloy	amusingly, searching the #clojure logs for references to "monster", the only person to accuse anyone of being a monster last november was technomancy, who did it three times
20:59	TravisD	lol
20:59	isaacbw	TravisD: which repl
20:59	TravisD	isaacbw: I'm using cider
20:59	isaacbw	TravisD: C-c C-d should do it
20:59	Nyyx	so magic?
20:59	isaacbw	or maybe C-d d
20:59	technomancy	amalloy: three times consecutively?
20:59	isaacbw	*C-c d
20:59	amalloy	no, about a week apart
20:59	isaacbw	my fingers remember
20:59	isaacbw	but my brain doesn't
21:00	technomancy	huh
21:00	TravisD	You monster. you MONSTER. YOU MONSTER!
21:00	amalloy	oh, and i misread. one f those was october
21:00	technomancy	in preparation for halloween no doubt
21:00	amalloy	2013-11-26.txt-[13:29:42] bitemyapp: seangrove: I do things that kill my Emacs r
21:00	amalloy	egularly.
21:00	amalloy	2013-11-26.txt:[13:29:48] technomancy: you monster
21:02	amalloy	yeah, not judging you
21:02	akurilin2	Can we talk Haskell yet?
21:02	akurilin2	It's after 6pm.
21:02	amalloy	Maybe
21:03	dnolen_	bbloom: so this is fun, starting to protocolize the state methods in Om, pretty close to the point where you can force a component to write into global state, or take an Om component and use it without the Om abstractions / batched render loop, etc - drop into Reagent or whatever.
21:04	akurilin2	Btw, kind of a pita that you can't define a map literal and use above keys in the ones below
21:04	akurilin2	that'd be a neat hack.
21:07	pdk	does clojure have something like cl let&
21:07	pdk	er
21:07	pdk	let*
21:07	amalloy	yes, it's called let
21:09	gfredericks	,(defmacro let-map [& entries] (let [es (partition 2 entries) names (repeatedly gensym)] `(let [~@(mapcat list names (map second es))] {~@(mapcat list (map first es) names)})))
21:09	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Map literal must contain an even number of forms>
21:10	gfredericks	,(defmacro let-map [& entries] (let [es (partition 2 entries) names (repeatedly gensym)] `(let [~@(mapcat list names (map second es))] (hash-map ~@(mapcat list (map first es) names)))))
21:10	clojurebot	#'sandbox/let-map
21:10	gfredericks	wait that's not helpful
21:10	gfredericks	akurilin2: how should this even work
21:12	gfredericks	we have to assume keyword keys or something amirite
21:13	amalloy	gfredericks: (let [a 1 b (inc a)] (flatland.useful.map/keyed [a b])), if we're going to be writing silly macros
21:13	gfredericks	so repetitive
21:27	akurilin2	gfredericks: what are we talking about again?
21:38	akurilin2	Hammock time!
21:42	bbloom	dnolen_: cool
21:45	bbloom	dnolen_: i'm come by the studio to chill with kovas tomorrow. if you're there, you'll have to show me how that works
21:46	dnolen_	bbloom: sweet, I'll try to make it.
21:52	TravisD	is there a way to apply a function to each value in a map?
21:54	TravisD	aside from something like (defn map-map [m f] (reduce (fn [m [k v]] (assoc m k (f v))) {} m))
21:56	bbloom	TravisD: there is no map-values or map-keys in core, but you can do something like (into {} (for [[k v] m] [k (f v)]))
22:18	TravisD	bbloom: ah yeah
22:24	bhenry	is there a performance benefit in requiring with :refer [x y z] vs. requiring with :as lib?
22:28	isaacbw	is clojure a lisp-1 or lisp-2?
22:29	ryanf	isaacbw: lisp-1
22:29	isaacbw	woot
22:30	bhenry	is there any benefit (performance or otherwise) in requiring with :refer [x y z] vs. requiring with :as lib?
22:33	gfredericks	bhenry: only your readability preferences
22:33	gfredericks	performance is unrelated
22:34	bhenry	gfredericks: that's what i thought. thanks.
22:57	dsrx	terrible lein plugin idea: like slamhound, but it rewrites your source files with judicious use of :refer :rename, :as, etc to minimize file size
22:57	dsrx	s/source files/ns macros
23:41	firefaux	is there any actual documentation for clojure's data structures and interfaces to them?
23:41	TravisD	is there a function that will take an associative binary operator and turn it into an n-ary operator?
23:42	firefaux	TravisD: you could do something with reduce
23:42	TravisD	Hm, yes, it seems like that's pretty much exactly what reduce does
23:42	firefaux	yep
23:42	TravisD	thanks :)
23:43	TravisD	That's a surprising way to think about it
23:43	firefaux	no problem
23:44	firefaux	now does anybody know of any extensive documentation for the data structures in clojure? I want to understand the actual java code that went into them
23:44	firefaux	and what I have to conform to to make my own
23:50	amalloy	firefaux: nothing super official. i think most people figure it out by checking what interfaces are implemented by {}, #{}, [], (), and so on
23:50	amalloy	then you can look at those interfaces and the methods in them mostly make sense
23:51	firefaux	there really should be something official
23:51	firefaux	the source code is pretty readable
23:51	firefaux	but its comments are pretty sparse
23:52	firefaux	and some things would be nice to have an explanation for