2014-02-20
| 00:00 | noprompt | bob2: of course. that and ml. |
| 00:00 | s1gs3gv | try to be positive mark[oz] ... it'll feel good. |
| 00:00 | johnwalker | or rust |
| 00:00 | sm0ke | erlang |
| 00:00 | s1gs3gv | 1980 |
| 00:00 | bob2 | noprompt, did you find haskell's type system to be significantly more valuable than scala's? |
| 00:00 | mark[oz] | s1gs3gv: I just feel like the same conversations happen, no matter which language I'm playing with.... "does it scale?" "is it better then language X" |
| 00:01 | sm0ke | go |
| 00:01 | s1gs3gv | it is a legit concern |
| 00:01 | mark[oz] | we can make anything scale... geez people scale c++ |
| 00:01 | sm0ke | lua can be scaled |
| 00:01 | bob2 | s1gs3gv, without context, it isn't |
| 00:01 | noprompt | bob2: i never used scala. i took one look at it and literally said "fuck no". |
| 00:01 | bob2 | noprompt, hah, fair enough |
| 00:01 | mark[oz] | s1gs3gv: if google can keep 14 copies of the internet in memory, then you'll be fine :) |
| 00:01 | johnwalker | noprompt: ugh, yeah me too, except it was in the context of the coursera introduction |
| 00:01 | s1gs3gv | ok, with remote akka actors i can scale thru configuration |
| 00:02 | s1gs3gv | without writing any new code |
| 00:02 | bob2 | so does running more app servers count as "scale thru configuration"? |
| 00:02 | mark[oz] | you could always throw a load balancer in front of a few instances right? |
| 00:02 | mark[oz] | varnish, etc. |
| 00:02 | s1gs3gv | yes, if i don't have to change my code, just the config |
| 00:03 | bob2 | then any language counts, if you write mostly-stateless apps |
| 00:03 | johnwalker | twitchplayspokemon seems to scale |
| 00:03 | noprompt | like i said, i mostly enjoy type safe languages just not syntax. |
| 00:04 | bob2 | clojure is type-safe, it's just not statically typed |
| 00:04 | noprompt | call me a smug lisp weenie. syntax adds an unecissary barrier between you and your program. |
| 00:04 | noprompt | bob2: fair enough. |
| 00:05 | johnwalker | s1gs3gv: look for the technique that you want to use to scale your app, and check how it works in clojure |
| 00:05 | dsrx | my favorite scala thing is List(1,2,3).toSet() # => Boolean = false |
| 00:07 | noprompt | wut? |
| 00:08 | inahandizha | http://VisitsToMoney.com/index.php?refId=386970 |
| 00:08 | dsrx | it ends up becoming something like (List(1,2,3).toSet).apply( () ) |
| 00:09 | dsrx | and since list is covariant the inferencer makes that list a List[Any], and checks for membership of () in it |
| 00:09 | dsrx | something like that |
| 00:10 | s1gs3gv | so, i am considering mark[oz] question regarding the differences between scalability thru configuration using akka remoting and using loadbalancers |
| 00:17 | s1gs3gv | really that throws the burden of application scalability on the system admistrators rather than the software architects |
| 00:18 | s1gs3gv | it should be possible just to netboot a system and have it join the application service |
| 00:18 | mark[oz] | s1gs3gv: you need to tackle each component of the application to determine where it best sits |
| 00:18 | mark[oz] | and I don't believe there is burden, just various solutions |
| 00:19 | s1gs3gv | mark[oz]: when you require administrative action to scale a system, you introduce a point of failure |
| 00:20 | bob2 | " application scalability" is absolutely the software developer and architect's problem |
| 00:20 | bob2 | poorly designed and implemented apps will never scale |
| 00:21 | mark[oz] | facebook would disagree |
| 00:21 | mark[oz] | so would reddit and twitter |
| 00:21 | mark[oz] | it's just tougher |
| 00:21 | bob2 | heh |
| 00:22 | mark[oz] | I'm on a 16million pi app that's is being scaled across 3 web servers, and still as one db. |
| 00:22 | s1gs3gv | which db ? |
| 00:22 | mark[oz] | we have solid caching, memcached, memoization, varnihs, etc. |
| 00:23 | mark[oz] | s1gs3gv:postgres. |
| 00:23 | mark[oz] | s1gs3gv: hidden behind an ORM btw |
| 00:24 | s1gs3gv | what kind of hardware is running the db ? |
| 00:24 | mark[oz] | it'll be RDS soon. but it's a beefy dell 2950 (3 years old though) |
| 00:25 | s1gs3gv | and this is a clojure app ? |
| 00:25 | mark[oz] | nope. |
| 00:25 | mark[oz] | python... so prob slower then the jvm :) |
| 00:25 | s1gs3gv | well ... |
| 00:25 | mark[oz] | but my point stands... it shouldn't matter? |
| 00:25 | s1gs3gv | what shouldn't matter ? |
| 00:26 | johnwalker | clojure is faster than python |
| 00:27 | s1gs3gv | everything is faster than python, except ruby lol |
| 00:27 | johnwalker | is php faster than python? |
| 00:27 | s1gs3gv | dunno. i don't do php :) |
| 00:27 | s1gs3gv | scala is |
| 00:29 | s1gs3gv | anyways, the takeaway i am getting is that clojure is slower than scala but some think it make up for it by being a better match to the problem spaces and that you can scale clojure apps using load balancers. |
| 00:29 | s1gs3gv | have i got that right ? |
| 00:29 | Cr8 | i.. |
| 00:30 | s1gs3gv | ? |
| 00:30 | Cr8 | it's hard to say that a -language- is slower or faster than another |
| 00:30 | Cr8 | especially two jvm languages |
| 00:30 | Cr8 | unless one is groovy |
| 00:30 | s1gs3gv | lol |
| 00:31 | Cr8 | I'd say Clojure and Scala are pretty similar in terms of closeness to the underlying runtime though |
| 00:32 | Cr8 | and there's always https://github.com/ztellman?tab=repositories when you need an escape hatch |
| 00:33 | s1gs3gv | thats kinda interesting. ty. |
| 00:34 | Cr8 | (by which i mean ztellman has several different projects that allow you to step around some of the things in clojure when you need to for performance reasons) |
| 00:34 | Cr8 | vertigo, proteus, probably more |
| 00:35 | Cr8 | That is one of the differences I'd say that exists between Clojure and Scala is that Clojure does a lot less in the way of actual *enforcement* of its sensibilities |
| 00:36 | s1gs3gv | right |
| 00:36 | Cr8 | which may be something you like or don't, depending on your situation |
| 00:36 | s1gs3gv | sure |
| 00:37 | s1gs3gv | there are times when covariance and contravarience hurt the brain |
| 00:38 | s1gs3gv | but it seems to pay dividends |
| 00:39 | s1gs3gv | can u summarize the benefits of *not having* a static type system in clojure |
| 00:41 | Cr8 | probably not. One though is that it is a bit at odds with its goal of being a language that sits very thinly on-top of some host platform (enabling stuff like ClojureScript very easily) |
| 00:41 | technomancy | not having Java's type system is pretty great |
| 00:41 | Cr8 | ^^ |
| 00:41 | technomancy | it would be really difficult to build something that is both 0) good and 1) allows for decent JVM interop |
| 00:43 | Cr8 | and now you have the weird effect of touching the JVM "types" at a lower level than you would from Java even |
| 00:44 | Cr8 | since Java has things that don't "exist" at the JVM layer (generics, inner classes) |
| 00:44 | s1gs3gv | so what is great about not having the java type system ? |
| 00:44 | s1gs3gv | perl doesn't have it either ... |
| 00:45 | s1gs3gv | technomancy: define good |
| 00:45 | Cr8 | if you had a static type system and it was significantly different from Java's it complicates the interop layer |
| 00:46 | s1gs3gv | but that is hidden in the implementation. as an application programmer i don't need to worry about it. |
| 00:46 | technomancy | s1gs3gv: catches common errors without imposing lots of unnecessary mental overhead |
| 00:46 | Cr8 | heh |
| 00:47 | Cr8 | I've never used FFI of any form without eventually having to study the implementation to deal with something |
| 00:47 | s1gs3gv | FFI ? |
| 00:47 | Cr8 | (foreign function interface, though here I use it to mean interop layers in general) |
| 00:48 | s1gs3gv | as an application programmer using a jvm language that interoperates with java classes, why should i care |
| 00:49 | s1gs3gv | in fact, i shouldn't have to care |
| 00:50 | s1gs3gv | i think i'm missing something here that y'all are trying to explain ... |
| 00:51 | s1gs3gv | scala and clojure both target the jvm and interoperate with java classes |
| 00:51 | s1gs3gv | scala has a static type system, clojure doesn't |
| 00:51 | s1gs3gv | that has benefits and costs |
| 00:51 | s1gs3gv | convince me that the costs outweigh the benefits if u can |
| 00:52 | technomancy | I don't care; if Scala doesn't drive you crazy then that's fine by me =) |
| 00:53 | `szx | s1gs3gv: why don't you just try it out and decide for yourself? |
| 00:53 | bob2 | why? if you like scala, go for it |
| 00:53 | bob2 | no one but you (and your coworkers) cares what you use or prefer |
| 00:53 | s1gs3gv | lol. thats what i thought ! |
| 00:53 | s1gs3gv | i like both. |
| 00:53 | s1gs3gv | but clojure is so slow ... |
| 00:54 | technomancy | slow clojure programs are slow |
| 00:54 | technomancy | fast clojure programs are fast |
| 00:54 | technomancy | there's nothing about clojure that makes it impossible to write programs that are as fast as the fastest scala programs |
| 00:55 | s1gs3gv | so why do the benchmark game benchmarks suck ? |
| 00:55 | technomancy | because benchmarks are stupid |
| 00:55 | s1gs3gv | ohhh, excuse me. sorry. |
| 00:56 | technomancy | no one who knows how to write clojure has bothered to spend a bunch of time optimizing against a silly gamed metric |
| 00:56 | s1gs3gv | i don't think any of those programs are optimized. |
| 00:56 | technomancy | right, because no one cares |
| 00:57 | s1gs3gv | its still an apples to apples comparison |
| 00:58 | technomancy | benchmark games are like arguing on the Internet |
| 00:58 | technomancy | whoever has more time to sink into a fruitless cause always wins |
| 00:58 | s1gs3gv | it shouldn't be necessary to optimize an idiomatic clojure program to get good performance. |
| 00:58 | s1gs3gv | that is a bad tradeoff |
| 00:59 | technomancy | what good is a fast program that isn't correct? |
| 00:59 | technomancy | do you want a language that makes it easy to write fast code and difficult to make it correct, or vice versa? |
| 00:59 | s1gs3gv | are you suggesting that idiomatic clojure programs are less likely to be correct |
| 00:59 | technomancy | no |
| 01:00 | alew | if you want performance, you should use a language built with speed in mind, like c |
| 01:00 | s1gs3gv | are you suggesting that idiomatic clojure programs are more likely to be correct ? |
| 01:00 | technomancy | yes |
| 01:01 | s1gs3gv | so you are implying there is a tradeoff between idiomatic usage and performance ? |
| 01:01 | alew | that's true of every single language |
| 01:01 | s1gs3gv | not really |
| 01:02 | s1gs3gv | i don't have a problem with it if there are ways to deal with scalability |
| 01:02 | technomancy | scala comes out better in the games because it makes it easier to write imperatvie code |
| 01:02 | s1gs3gv | in fact i think idiomatic usage trumps performance |
| 01:02 | technomancy | imperative code is more difficult to write correctly in a concurrent setting |
| 01:02 | s1gs3gv | yes |
| 01:02 | s1gs3gv | i'm not arguing imperative vv functional |
| 01:03 | technomancy | imperative vs functional *is* the same argument as fast vs correct |
| 01:03 | s1gs3gv | phhhwww |
| 01:03 | technomancy | in the context of clojure vs scala |
| 01:03 | s1gs3gv | i've written a lot of correct imperative programs |
| 01:03 | alew | in what language is the idomatic solution also always the fastest? |
| 01:04 | s1gs3gv | i think the primar concern in language choice is how closely the language models the abstraction we use when thinking about the problem space |
| 01:04 | s1gs3gv | but i want to ensure that my solution scales reliably without adminstrative action |
| 01:05 | alew | what about erlang? |
| 01:05 | s1gs3gv | 1980 |
| 01:05 | s1gs3gv | sorry, thats a reasonable question. but out of scope in a clojure/scala conversation |
| 01:06 | s1gs3gv | i really like clojure, but the benchmarks suck |
| 01:07 | technomancy | if you think you can't write fast code in clojure you should read http://meshy.org/2009/12/13/widefinder-2-with-clojure.html |
| 01:07 | technomancy | if you base your decisions on alioth benchmarks you deserve what you get =) |
| 01:08 | s1gs3gv | i'll read it. thanks for the link. |
| 01:09 | s1gs3gv | take it easy folks. ttyl. late here ... |
| 01:10 | ssafejava | thanks for the links technomancy, always glad to have you in channel |
| 01:10 | technomancy | alioth used to penalize you for startup time too |
| 01:10 | technomancy | not sure if they still do |
| 01:11 | technomancy | but that made it totally misleading for server software |
| 01:12 | technomancy | read the meshy.org article ... and pray you never have to deal with optimization at that level yourself =) |
| 01:12 | technomancy | ssafejava: np; cheers. calling it a night. |
| 01:13 | ssafejava | night |
| 01:43 | quizdr | I have a map of maps, therefore a lazy sequence that contains other lazy sequences. I just want to print it all out, but it seems I have to get fancy with mapping printlns on top of printlns; is there an easier way? doall only realizes the top-level map |
| 01:44 | bob2 | pprint? |
| 01:45 | Cr8 | map {:foo "bar"} or map (map foo [bar baz]) ? |
| 01:45 | Cr8 | map {:foo "bar"} <-- not lazy |
| 01:46 | quizdr | Cr8 yes, map of map, actually three levels deep. |
| 01:46 | quizdr | bob2 that only works on top level |
| 01:46 | Cr8 | pprint or pr-str should realize the whole structure |
| 01:47 | quizdr | Cr8 ok let me take a closer look. |
| 01:47 | Cr8 | er, (prn) rather |
| 01:47 | Cr8 | if you want to print it out |
| 01:48 | Cr8 | pr-str would return the string that would be printed using pr |
| 01:49 | Cr8 | quizdr: (print) is for humans |
| 01:49 | Cr8 | (pr) is for printing things such that they are fully represented and can be read back in |
| 01:49 | quizdr | Cr8 gotcha |
| 01:49 | Cr8 | with (println) and (prn) respectively if you want newlines after |
| 01:51 | hhenkel | Hi all, I'm running in an error trying to use at-at as a scheduler library with http-hit communicating over channels. The error is: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.core.async.impl.channels.ManyToManyChannel cannot be cast to java.lang.Runnable |
| 01:52 | hhenkel | So my guess is, that it is not a good idea to use return a channel at that point in the code but rather return the data and put it then in the channel? |
| 01:55 | amalloy | hhenkel: an error message is much, much less useful than an entire stacktrace |
| 01:57 | hhenkel | amalloy: That's not a big deal: https://www.refheap.com/42612 |
| 01:59 | amalloy | i know very little about at-at, but it sure looks to me like you are calling schedule-requests with a core.async channel, when it wants a Runnable |
| 01:59 | amalloy | (and since clojure functions implement Runnable, you may in fact just want to be passing it a fn) |
| 02:02 | Cr8 | at-at is a pretty thin wrapper around http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/util/concurrent/ScheduledThreadPoolExecutor.html |
| 02:02 | Cr8 | and it looks like you tried to hand at-at/every a channel where it expected a function (or other Runnable thing) |
| 02:03 | hhenkel | amalloy: Cr8: added the functions to https://www.refheap.com/42612 |
| 02:04 | Cr8 | hhenkel: every expects an interval |
| 02:04 | hhenkel | Cr8: Yes, that's what I thought might be the problem. So it's better to return the result of the http request then? |
| 02:04 | Cr8 | ahah waity |
| 02:04 | Cr8 | *wait |
| 02:04 | Cr8 | you want to run that http-post every timed-request ms |
| 02:05 | Cr8 | right |
| 02:05 | Cr8 | just toss a # at the front of line 15 =P |
| 02:05 | hhenkel | Cr8: Yes, exactly. |
| 02:05 | Cr8 | you're actually passing it the result of *calling* http-post |
| 02:05 | Cr8 | you want to pass a function that *will* call http-post |
| 02:06 | Cr8 | (every <interval> <function> <pool>) ; (every 1000 (fn [] (println "I get printed every 1000ms")) my-pool) |
| 02:06 | Cr8 | (every 1000 (println "I return nil") my-pool) <-- throws nullpointerexception because it tries to call nil as a function |
| 02:07 | hhenkel | Cr8: okay, okay...I think I see the issue...I'll give it a try. |
| 02:07 | hhenkel | ;) |
| 02:08 | Cr8 | I've done this same thing using at-at myself. |
| 02:12 | webus | hi! i'm locking for remote job on clojure |
| 02:12 | hhenkel | Cr8: Looks much better now...totally strange that it works once it is done right. |
| 02:12 | Cr8 | funny that |
| 02:12 | hhenkel | (inc Cr8) |
| 02:13 | hhenkel | lazybot is gone? |
| 02:13 | ddellacosta | ,(inc Cr8) |
| 02:13 | clojurebot | #<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: Cr8 in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)> |
| 02:13 | Cr8 | huh it was here earlier |
| 02:13 | ddellacosta | &(inc Cr8) |
| 02:13 | Cr8 | guess it got borked |
| 02:13 | ddellacosta | hmm |
| 02:13 | Cr8 | ddellacosta: it's actually not in the channel :) |
| 02:14 | ddellacosta | Cr8: ah |
| 02:14 | ddellacosta | clojurebot: where is lazybot? |
| 02:14 | Cr8 | is it its brother's keeper |
| 02:14 | ddellacosta | jeez, the bots are really slacking off today |
| 02:14 | ddellacosta | lazy bots |
| 02:21 | juliankrause | Hello, I am following this doc http://clojure-doc.org/articles/tutorials/vim_fireplace.html on how to get my repl set up correctly. However, when I try and run the tests I get: ClassNotFoundException clojure.tests java.net.URLClassLoader$1.run (URLClassLoader.java:366) |
| 02:21 | juliankrause | I am using OpenJDK 7 on debian. Is this a problem? Is there a way to get more details? |
| 02:23 | juliankrause | Ooops, I realized what it is, running (clojure.tests/run-tests) fails with that. |
| 02:23 | juliankrause | Thanks |
| 02:57 | TravisD | Do refs provide validation because you may not control the transactions that update the ref? |
| 03:03 | arrdem | ddellacosta: you don't do inc with code eval. it's its own system. |
| 03:03 | arrdem | (inc ddellacosta) |
| 03:04 | arrdem | which apparently is offline.. |
| 03:04 | arrdem | TravisD: care to elaborate? |
| 03:05 | TravisD | arrdem: Ah, I watched a talk by Rich Hickey about simplicity tonight. It seems like you should be able to have validation and mutation as orthogonal concepts. I was trying to figure out why they are coupled together |
| 03:06 | TravisD | arrdem: The talk was relevant because he started using the word "complect", which is why i was thinking about it in the first place |
| 03:08 | arrdem | TravisD: AFAIK ref transactions provide no validation. You can achieve validation by using ref update hooks, but it's not something I've done. |
| 03:09 | TravisD | Ah, maybe it's just for convenience then. What I was thinking of is this: (def some-ref (ref 0 :validator #(> % 0)) |
| 03:09 | arrdem | lemme look around a bit, I may be entirely offbase here. |
| 03:10 | arrdem | I appologize. there is official support for ref validation. |
| 03:10 | arrdem | http://clojure.org/refs#Refs%20and%20Transactions |
| 03:10 | amalloy | TravisD: #(> % 0) is just pos?, isn't it? |
| 03:10 | arrdem | http://clojure.github.io/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/set-validator! |
| 03:10 | TravisD | amalloy: sounds like it :) |
| 03:10 | TravisD | I just made something up on the spot. not too familiar with the available predicates yet |
| 03:13 | mskou72 | I have something like this: (def x [{:a 1 :d #{}} {:a 2 :d #{}}]) , but how do i put items in the set and get a new x? |
| 03:14 | ddellacosta | arrdem: ah, didn't realize...thanks |
| 03:18 | ddellacosta | mskou72: if you want to do the same thing to all :d sets, you could do something like (map (fn [v] (update-in v [:d] #(conj % :foo))) x) |
| 03:18 | mskou72 | well only fx for maps where (= :a 2) |
| 03:20 | ddellacosta | mskou72: in that case just add a predicate I suppose: (map (fn [v] (if (= 2 (:a v)) (update-in v [:d] #(conj % :bar)) v)) x) |
| 03:21 | mskou72 | thanks, will try! |
| 03:21 | bob2 | are you sure you want a randomly mutable global? |
| 03:22 | ddellacosta | mskou72: more generally, if you are still figuring out how to structure your data, consider what you will want to access/update and how, and think about the ways that clojure gives you to make it easier. Sometimes that pays off. |
| 03:22 | ddellacosta | bob2: what do you mean? |
| 03:22 | ddellacosta | bob2: I don't see anything mutable anywhere in mskou72's question or my answer |
| 03:26 | mskou72 | bob: the (def x part was just to present the problem in a runable manner... |
| 03:47 | lizzin | is there a way to destructure a map in a def? say (def [x y] (group-by #(< % 5) (shuffle (range 10))))? |
| 03:48 | ddellacosta | lizzin: you mean defn? You don't pass args into a def like that. |
| 03:49 | ddellacosta | lizzin: and if you are asking about defn, then the answer is yes, you certainly can. This is a great article on destructuring: http://blog.jayfields.com/2010/07/clojure-destructuring.html |
| 03:50 | lizzin | i am familiar with defn. just wondering if was also possible to create two vars w/ a single def while destructing that map |
| 03:51 | ddellacosta | lizzin: no, the first arg to def is a symbol, not bindings/params. |
| 03:53 | lizzin | ddellacosta: seems a bit odd that this is not allowed. but binding via let etc should work just fine |
| 03:53 | hhenkel | Hi all, is it possible to pass multiple values to a function using the "arrow" notation? |
| 03:54 | ddellacosta | lizzin: why is it odd? Honestly I can't really think of a use case that would need you to do this kind of thing |
| 03:54 | bob2 | mskou72, ah, sorry, I misunderstood |
| 03:55 | ddellacosta | lizzin: simply set the var to be the value of the group-by, then it's very easy to refer to things using built-in mechanisms that Clojure provides. |
| 03:55 | bob2 | hhenkel, you can pass a container and destructure it in the function, but -> and ->> only pass in one arg themselves |
| 03:56 | lizzin | ddellacosta: true. it just something i've found useful in scala |
| 03:56 | hhenkel | bob2: okay, thanks. |
| 03:57 | lizzin | ddellacosta: i just started learning clojure. so i'm sure my views on this are sure to change |
| 03:58 | ddellacosta | lizzin: another thing is that function args/let bindings are setting local scope; you would be setting indefinite (global) scope with this proposed mechanism. |
| 03:58 | ddellacosta | lizzin: I'm not sure there is much of an arg there other than semantic consistency, though. |
| 03:58 | ddellacosta | lizzin: yeah, in general it's good to get a feel for the tools Clojure gives you for getting ahold of your data--it is very powerful but takes a bit of time to "think in Clojure" so to speak. |
| 04:04 | lizzin | ddellacosta: i have much to learn. thanks for the help |
| 04:05 | ddellacosta | lizzin: as do we all. :-) Sure, any time, hope I was helpful! |
| 04:05 | TravisD | Since random number generators are not pure (unless you include the seed as an argument, which seems uncommon), should you be careful about their use in otherwise pure code? |
| 04:07 | dsrx | passing RNG state around inside a closure or contained within an object or with a state monad or something isn't really that uncommon |
| 04:07 | TravisD | yeah, I wrote some simulation stuff in Haskell that used a state monad to thread the seed through the program |
| 04:08 | TravisD | but that felt kind of tedious in the end |
| 04:09 | quizdr | I'm finding it a bit odd that partition returns a sequence, which you'd understand to be ordered, yet conj prepends to the front, unlike other ordered sequences like vector. Is this confusing or expected? |
| 04:10 | lizzin | ddellacosta: you definitely were! |
| 04:18 | dsrx | the 'place' that conj happens depends on the collection; lists are one example where it's prepended (because they're singly linked lists) |
| 04:46 | nathan7 | quizdr: conj just does the most efficient 'add this to the sequence' it can do |
| 04:46 | nathan7 | for a single-linked list, that's at the front, for a vector, that's at the back |
| 04:47 | nathan7 | conj is guaranteed to be constant-time |
| 05:04 | hhenkel | What are the best options/prefered types when I'm facing such an exception: nth not supported on this type: PersistentArrayMap |
| 05:10 | clgv | hhenkel: what do you want to extract from the map? |
| 05:11 | hhenkel | clgv: I don't want to extract anything... ;) I'm providing a datastructure to http-kit to be used within a post request. |
| 05:12 | hhenkel | clgv: https://www.refheap.com/42670 |
| 05:13 | clgv | hhenkel: oh then you provide the wrong data structure or the wrong layout |
| 05:14 | clgv | hhenkel: http-kit is clearly assuming a sequential data structure there - maybe even a vector |
| 05:14 | clgv | check the docs about what data you need to provide |
| 05:15 | hhenkel | clgv: yes, thought so...updated the refheap with my code...gues I have to rethink line 8 then. |
| 05:16 | hhenkel | clgv: looks like I need a vector for that. |
| 05:17 | clgv | what's that: (keyword "form-params") ? why not :form-params? |
| 05:17 | clgv | hhenkel: maybe you need a vector of requests? just check what the docs say ;) |
| 05:25 | hhenkel | clgv: How do I create a vector then? I'm limited with my knowledge regarding options to process the data. |
| 05:26 | hhenkel | clgv: As far as I understand I need a different operation then the doall / map because this gives me a lazyseq |
| 05:26 | clgv | hhenkel: you need some introductory text to clojure if you ask that |
| 05:27 | hhenkel | clgv: I'm trying to understand the oreilly book at the moment... |
| 05:28 | clgv | hhenkel: If I were you I'd read the http-kit docs to find out what the used call needs to get as data |
| 05:28 | clgv | and then go from there |
| 05:39 | sm0ke | conj is not constant time |
| 05:40 | sm0ke | it took over 3 days i guess |
| 05:40 | sm0ke | :D |
| 05:46 | rurumate | Is there a way to enable auto-reload of modified source files with liberator? |
| 05:49 | bob2 | rurumate, 'lein ring server'does that already |
| 05:57 | rurumate | bob2: ok, that's what I used to do before liberator, and it worked |
| 05:57 | sm0ke | whats is liberator? |
| 05:58 | rurumate | now I cloned the liberator project and run lein examples, and have to restart after a change |
| 05:58 | rurumate | sm0ke: it's a project on github |
| 05:58 | sm0ke | rurumate: whats it good for? |
| 05:59 | rurumate | sm0ke: not sure yet, but it seems to require less setup work for a new project |
| 05:59 | rurumate | than raw compojure |
| 05:59 | rurumate | I'm lazy you know |
| 05:59 | sm0ke | hmm how can compojure be more work!! the req response is a map! |
| 06:00 | sm0ke | thanks to ring |
| 06:00 | rurumate | sm0ke: for example, many useful ring handlers are already there |
| 06:00 | sm0ke | it seems to have some fancy graph based thingy |
| 06:01 | sm0ke | rurumate: ring handlers and middlewares are completely different things |
| 06:01 | Anderkent | well that's the thing, it doesn't really do anything for you; sometimes it's nice to work on a higher level of abstraction than just request-response |
| 06:01 | rurumate | oops sorry, I meant middlewares |
| 06:01 | sm0ke | and can be resused in any app based on ring |
| 06:01 | sm0ke | need to read about it |
| 06:08 | rurumate | hmm, no liberator users here? |
| 06:08 | rurumate | it has almost 500 stars, I wasnt't expecting this |
| 06:15 | sm0ke | rurumate: did you try what bob2 suggested? |
| 06:15 | sm0ke | rurumate: if its based on ring, lein ring server should be good enough |
| 06:16 | sm0ke | rurumate: https://github.com/weavejester/lein-ring |
| 06:22 | clgv | rurumate: I can ping one of the maintainers if he is around ;) |
| 06:28 | clgv | no luck yet.. |
| 06:31 | rurumate | clgv: yes please, thanks |
| 06:32 | rurumate | google didn't help me much, I think this should go into liberator's README.markdown |
| 06:32 | rurumate | or the wiki start page |
| 06:41 | clgv | rurumate: maybe you need to start the server from the REPL. then updating code would be pretty easy without additional magic |
| 06:51 | sm0ke | hey is it necessary for deftype to implement an interface? ##(deftype ValarMorghulis [s] (getName [_] x)) |
| 06:51 | sm0ke | the doc here has a spec* http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/deftype |
| 06:52 | sm0ke | what happened to lazybot? |
| 06:52 | sm0ke | ,(deftype ValarMorghulis [s] (getName [_] x)) |
| 06:52 | clojurebot | #<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Symbol> |
| 06:52 | sm0ke | ,(deftype ValarMorghulis [s] (getName [_] s)) |
| 06:52 | clojurebot | #<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Symbol> |
| 06:53 | clgv | sm0ke: to implement a method in a deftype you need an interface |
| 06:53 | clgv | or a protocol |
| 06:54 | sm0ke | hmm than the statement that gen-class and deftype are similar is just plain wrong |
| 06:56 | clgv | sm0ke: similarity does not mean they are identical, they just share some common properties |
| 06:57 | rurumate | clgv: thanks, I'll try the repl way |
| 06:57 | rurumate | cheers |
| 06:59 | sm0ke | ugh, i am lost when it comes to defining types |
| 06:59 | Anderkent | sm0ke: functions on deftype must fulfill a protocol / interface |
| 06:59 | Anderkent | that's by design |
| 06:59 | sm0ke | defprotocol, definterface, then defrecord, extend-type, deftype, then proxy, reify, gen-class.. blah blah bleh |
| 07:00 | Anderkent | right, they're all different tools for different purposes; (with perhaps exception of gen-class, which is the low-level mechanism) |
| 07:01 | Anderkent | .. I think there was a cool graph of 'what datatype to use' somewhere, but cant find it now |
| 07:01 | sveri | hi, did someone here integrate friend into a luminus/http-kit project and has some example code or any other resources for this? |
| 07:01 | sm0ke | http://chasemerick.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/choosingtypeforms2.png |
| 07:02 | sm0ke | there is no extend-record, extend-type on that |
| 07:02 | Anderkent | yeah, that's it :P |
| 07:02 | Anderkent | because they're not datatypes, they're ways fo bending an existing datatype to support new interfaces |
| 07:03 | Anderkent | i.e. you're defining a protocol and want to provide implementations for types you don't control |
| 07:11 | sm0ke | ,(defprotocol IncStr (inc [s])) |
| 07:11 | clojurebot | Warning: protocol #'sandbox/IncStr is overwriting function inc\n#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied> |
| 07:11 | sm0ke | :P |
| 07:11 | clgv | don't annoy clojurebot! otherwise he may join lazybot in the tavern ;) |
| 07:12 | sm0ke | the sandboxing is bullet proof |
| 07:23 | sm0ke | how wise it would be to have something like...(ns org.abc) (deftype....) (ns back.to.original). in a source code? |
| 07:23 | sm0ke | the point being deftype could be given a custom package strucutre? |
| 07:27 | clgv | sm0ke: very stupid, since clojure cannot require that namespace since class loading is done via a namespace-file-location correspondence |
| 07:28 | sm0ke | clgv: is that true? why is it permitted on a repl then? |
| 07:28 | clgv | but if you want a different namespace for the deftype just create the appropriate file for that namespace |
| 07:29 | clgv | sm0ke: yeah that is true. on the repl when you define a namespaces it is created in memory. when you define the namespace in a file and require it from a different file there is the mentioned convention so that the namespace can be found and loaded into memory |
| 07:30 | sm0ke | ,(doc ns) |
| 07:30 | clojurebot | "([name docstring? attr-map? references*]); Sets *ns* to the namespace named by name (unevaluated), creating it if needed. references can be zero or more of: (:refer-clojure ...) (:require ...) (:use ...) (:import ...) (:load ...) (:gen-class) with the syntax of refer-clojure/require/use/import/load/gen-class respectively, except the arguments are unevaluated and need not be quoted. (:gen-class ..... |
| 07:31 | clgv | just remember ech namespace needs his own file. but one namespaces can be implemented in different files for better organization of large namespaces see clojure.core |
| 07:31 | clgv | sm0ke: the docstring just explains how ns is used^^ |
| 07:32 | sm0ke | clgv: what do you mean by one namespace can be implemented in different files? |
| 07:32 | clgv | sm0ke: you can simply try your scenario. write a second file (ns my.example (:require org.abc)) where (ns back.to.original) ... (ns org.abc) ... (ns back.to.original) |
| 07:33 | clgv | and see if failing ;) |
| 07:33 | clgv | sm0ke: see clojure.core |
| 07:33 | sm0ke | clgv: hey that would obvisouly fail |
| 07:34 | sm0ke | wait.. |
| 07:34 | sm0ke | hmm i am interested to know what would happen if i put (ns xyz) in middle of a source code |
| 07:34 | clgv | any setup with two ns-forms within a single file will fail |
| 07:34 | sm0ke | ah |
| 07:35 | clgv | you can't properly require xyz if the file where it is contained was not loaded in advance |
| 07:37 | sm0ke | so do you propose i either use gen-class or create folder like org.stupid.java.packaging.howlong.cani.dothis ? |
| 07:39 | clgv | sm0ke: if you really need that long package yeah |
| 07:39 | sm0ke | :P |
| 07:41 | sm0ke | anyways, getting off now |
| 07:41 | sm0ke | later! |
| 07:41 | TimMc | clgv: But if one were to require the "containing" namespace, the other would become available, yeah? |
| 07:42 | clgv | TImMc: yeah |
| 07:42 | TimMc | not that I'm encouraging such shenanigans |
| 07:42 | clgv | just like the (ns) form executed in the repl |
| 07:43 | clgv | TimMc: it is just the classloader logic that cannot find the file where the "contained" namespace is in |
| 07:44 | clgv | we should switch from files to database as storage for programming. no more file oriented organization ;) |
| 07:45 | clgv | a petty that the lighttable feature for composing the workspace view out of different functions did not survive... |
| 07:49 | TimMc | It didn't? :-( |
| 07:49 | clgv | last time I tried I could not find it. |
| 07:49 | clgv | about 3-4 weeks ago |
| 07:57 | clgv | TimMc: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/light-table-discussion/0DAuy2Trfjw |
| 08:00 | mercwithamouth | would any of you clojure afficionadas be willing/interested in starting a video tutorial site like railscasts? Not 'with' me but 'for' those like me =P |
| 08:00 | mercwithamouth | paid service of course... |
| 08:04 | clgv | mercwithamouth: some did write books to help you ;) |
| 08:08 | mercwithamouth | clgv: lol very true..and i've bought all of them =P |
| 08:17 | clgv | mercwithamouth: and read all of them yet? ;) |
| 08:33 | wink | mercwithamouth: well there is videos.lispcast.com, but not many |
| 10:23 | stain | hi, is it possible to use (extend-type) or similar to make beans of a Java interface also implement ISeq or ITransientMap or similar? (without modifying the Java source) |
| 10:24 | stain | or would I have to do my own new multimethods? |
| 10:25 | stain | if I try (extend-type com.example.MyJavaThing clojure.lang.ITransientMap (..)) I get: IllegalArgumentException interface clojure.lang.ITransientMap is not a protocol |
| 10:26 | Anderken1 | you can't add interfaces to java classes, but you can proxy them and add the interfaces to your proxy |
| 10:27 | gfredericks | sometimes |
| 10:27 | Anderken1 | sometimes. |
| 10:27 | gfredericks | ,(proxy [clojure.lang.Keyword] []) |
| 10:27 | clojurebot | #<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching ctor found for class sandbox.proxy$clojure.lang.Keyword$0, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)> |
| 10:27 | gfredericks | ,(proxy [clojure.lang.Keyword] ["foo"]) |
| 10:27 | clojurebot | #<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching ctor found for class sandbox.proxy$clojure.lang.Keyword$0, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)> |
| 10:27 | gfredericks | ,(proxy [clojure.lang.Keyword] ["foo" "bar"]) |
| 10:27 | clojurebot | #<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching ctor found for class sandbox.proxy$clojure.lang.Keyword$0, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)> |
| 10:27 | stain | ok.. but then I would have to proxy it everwhere I retrieve the Java objects? |
| 10:27 | stain | then I could rather just create brand new Clojure object at each of those points |
| 10:28 | Anderken1 | that's usually the right thing to do, yes |
| 10:30 | stain | but I can create multimethods around my Java classes, right? Say a (convert-to-clojure) method with different implementations for each of my Java classes |
| 10:32 | Anderken1 | yes in theory, though I'm struggling to imagine a use case for that; usually when interacting with java you know straight away what class you'll be getting and can do whatever you want with it without the indirecton of a multimethod |
| 10:35 | clgv | stain: yes you can. I did it for an R interface |
| 10:38 | _bart | Let's say I have (def beats {0 [kick] 1 [kick snare]}) and (def arps {0 [a] 1 [b]}), how do I merge the two so that I get a (def c {0 [kick a] 1 [kick snare b]})? |
| 10:39 | Anderken1 | ,(doc merge-with) |
| 10:39 | clojurebot | "([f & maps]); Returns a map that consists of the rest of the maps conj-ed onto the first. If a key occurs in more than one map, the mapping(s) from the latter (left-to-right) will be combined with the mapping in the result by calling (f val-in-result val-in-latter)." |
| 10:39 | _bart | (the hashes hold a 'bar' for the sequencer, and I have multiple bars for multiple instruments) |
| 10:39 | Anderken1 | so (merge-with conj beats arps) |
| 10:40 | Anderken1 | uhm, I ment concat |
| 10:40 | Anderken1 | ,(merge-with concat {1 [1 2 3]} {1 [4]}) |
| 10:40 | clojurebot | {1 (1 2 3 4)} |
| 10:40 | clgv | better use into |
| 10:41 | Anderken1 | yeah, that's better |
| 10:41 | _bart | ah that looks great, why would I use into? |
| 10:41 | Anderken1 | you'll get the same type |
| 10:41 | clgv | concat may bite you when you use that code too often |
| 10:41 | `cbp | into is also faster |
| 10:41 | Anderken1 | ,(merge-with into {:a #{:b :c}} {:a #{:b :d}}) |
| 10:41 | clgv | stacking up lazy sequences with concat too often results in a stackoverflow |
| 10:41 | clojurebot | {:a #{:c :b :d}} |
| 10:41 | Anderken1 | ,(merge-with concat {:a #{:b :c}} {:a #{:b :d}}) |
| 10:41 | clojurebot | {:a (:c :b :b :d)} |
| 10:42 | _bart | ah okay, thanks |
| 10:42 | sdegutis_ | I always avoid conj. |
| 10:42 | _bart | ,(doc into) |
| 10:42 | clojurebot | "([to from]); Returns a new coll consisting of to-coll with all of the items of from-coll conjoined." |
| 10:42 | sdegutis_ | I never seem to want to add onto a sequence in an undefined order. |
| 10:43 | sdegutis_ | Anyone else with me on this? |
| 10:43 | _bart | can I also merge 3 maps ith this code? |
| 10:43 | sdegutis_ | Or am I crazy? |
| 10:43 | Anderken1 | sdegutis_: so you don't use into either? |
| 10:43 | _bart | with* |
| 10:43 | clgv | sdegutis_: I almost only use vectors for sequential data. except from macro implementations |
| 10:43 | `cbp | you're crazy |
| 10:43 | sdegutis_ | I use into only for (into {} ...) |
| 10:44 | sdegutis_ | clgv: But once you run it through map or filter, it's not a vector anymore. |
| 10:44 | sdegutis_ | Anderken1: I only use (into {} [[k v] [k v] ...]) |
| 10:44 | Anderken1 | well, for maps and sets the order doesnt matter anyway; vec and list are the only places you'd care I suppose, and there I usually avoid conj |
| 10:44 | llasram | Huh |
| 10:44 | sdegutis_ | llasram: Huh. |
| 10:44 | clgv | sdegutis_: well I guess I do not often have the need to add to such a sequence after filter again. |
| 10:45 | clgv | for map there is mapv ;) |
| 10:45 | clgv | ,(apropos "filter") |
| 10:45 | clojurebot | (filterv filter) |
| 10:45 | clgv | oh right, filterv as well^^ |
| 10:45 | llasram | I see knowing if a value is a seq vs a vector as pretty much the same as knowing if it's a string vs a database connection |
| 10:45 | sdegutis_ | clgv: When you get a sequence from another of your functions, it may have been mapped or filtered or not. |
| 10:45 | `cbp | so what do you use instead of conj? :-D |
| 10:45 | sdegutis_ | clgv: So I always have this hesitation of not being sure at all of what type my sequences are. |
| 10:46 | sdegutis_ | `cbp: Usually just concat. |
| 10:46 | Anderkent | llasram: huh. For me it's more like map or sorted-map |
| 10:46 | `cbp | That is horrifying! |
| 10:46 | Anderkent | in most cases you don't care |
| 10:46 | clgv | sdegutis_: as I said. adding single elements to such a sequence didnt pop up that much in my projects |
| 10:46 | sdegutis_ | `cbp: Yep. |
| 10:47 | Anderkent | (i.e. just `seq` it and forget about the problem :D) |
| 10:47 | llasram | Anderkent: Right, but when you do care, then you just know, or document, or check, or coerce, or whatever else is appropriate to the problem |
| 10:47 | sdegutis_ | I've had to do it a few times, for example adding a header row to a CSV table. |
| 10:47 | Anderkent | llasram: sure. |
| 10:47 | sdegutis_ | It just happens that I always care about where it's being added to the sequence at. |
| 10:47 | clgv | sdegutis_: you can use (list* header data) to be sure what you get ;) |
| 10:48 | Anderkent | unless you think you know it's a set so you don't bother checking and then nil comes in |
| 10:48 | clgv | works for vectors as well |
| 10:48 | sdegutis_ | That just sounds so idempotent though. |
| 10:49 | pcn | newbie quetion here: is there a typical way to take a config file, e.g. .ini file, and read it with a module, and turn values that contain commas into lists? |
| 10:50 | pcn | I'm struggling with getting the mapping back from clojure-ini, then checking a subset of keys for values with commas |
| 10:50 | `cbp | sdegutis_: I feel like (into [header] table) would be preferable as it's faster and you dont turn it into a seq. Unless the table is a lazy seq then a conj would do the trick |
| 10:50 | pcn | then returning the new mapping with lists in their place |
| 10:51 | sdegutis_ | Could be so. |
| 10:51 | sdegutis_ | May be so. |
| 10:52 | pjstadig | ,(clojure.string/split "foo,bar" #",") |
| 10:52 | clojurebot | ["foo" "bar"] |
| 10:52 | pjstadig | pcn: ^ |
| 10:52 | pjstadig | if you know a key in a map you want to do that to, then you can use update-in |
| 10:53 | pjstadig | ,(update-in {:foo "bar,baz"} [:foo] clojure.string/split #",") |
| 10:53 | clojurebot | {:foo ["bar" "baz"]} |
| 10:53 | `cbp | pcn: maybe you can try instaparse for parsing config files |
| 10:54 | pcn | could be. I think my needs are better served by clojure-ini for now, but when I'm more comfortable in the language, maybe |
| 10:55 | `cbp | Oh i didn't realize that library existed |
| 10:58 | hhenkel | Is there a way to set the body of a post request with http-kit? |
| 11:07 | `cbp | hhenkel: I believe you add a :body key to the options map in http/post |
| 11:08 | `cbp | hhenkel: Also :form-params are part of the body |
| 11:08 | `cbp | (and override it) |
| 11:11 | AeroNotix | so, I was thinking that (clojure.data.json/read .... :bigdec boolean) shouldn't just be for decimal numbers, but for all numbers. Right? |
| 11:11 | AeroNotix | At the moment if the number is decimal... i.e. N.N then it converts |
| 11:13 | hhenkel | `cbp: yes, I had that...was missing a slash at the end of the url resulting in a strange behavior. |
| 11:16 | ellisd23 | Howdy. I'm a pythoner at the moment and I'm looking to fully dive into Clojure after some sporadic dabbling in FP in the past. Does anyone have any good ideas or links to places with good ideas on small side projects I could hack on that would immerse me in Clojure and show me what it's good at? |
| 11:18 | wink | ellisd23: I can present you a wildly random assortment of 113 clojure bookmarks, otherwise not so sure I can help https://pinboard.in/u:winks/t:clojure/ |
| 11:19 | ellisd23 | wjlroe, thanks, I'll take a look :-) |
| 11:19 | `cbp | ellisd23: clojure is good at concurrency. Maybe you can try making a webapp with a chat using websockets, which is pretty easy in clojure and pretty hard in python |
| 11:20 | ellisd23 | `cbp, ooh, interesting |
| 11:20 | wink | `cbp: I don't think it's that hard with tornado, but then again I never tried |
| 11:21 | `cbp | wink: I tried with flask + uwsgi + gevent and man was that hard |
| 11:21 | wink | `cbp: hehe ok :) |
| 11:21 | wink | I probably would've tried mongrel2 + brubeck first |
| 11:23 | ellisd23 | `cbp, I guess I don't understand the concurrency aspect. If I had written such a thing in Django, obviously parallel requests can be handled for receiving the chat messages |
| 11:25 | pcn | ellisd23: my experience is that twisted (not tornado, however) has a lot of sharp edges, and gets single-cpu limited. |
| 11:25 | `cbp | ellisd23: yeah with django you'll have to handle those requests in parallel which means one instance per request which is very limiting. |
| 11:25 | pcn | The workarounds suggested are overwhelmingly complex for the beneft derived. |
| 11:25 | `cbp | ellisd23: in clojure you just handle them asynchronously with one thread per request or even with callbacks |
| 11:26 | pbostrom | ellisd23: perhaps a better example is if the chat app send messages that mutate some shared application state on the server, like user A logs out at the same instant user B sends a message to user A |
| 11:31 | `cbp | ellisd23: basically the django implementation wouldn't scale at all |
| 11:33 | ontoillogical | How do I properly time a pmap? |
| 11:33 | ontoillogical | (time (pmap #(+ % % ) (range 10000))) doesn't do what I want it to do |
| 11:35 | hyPiRion | wrap it in a doall |
| 11:35 | hyPiRion | (time (doall (pmap ...))) |
| 11:35 | `cbp | or a dorun if you wanna be able to look at the time result :-p |
| 11:36 | ontoillogical | oh of course |
| 11:36 | ontoillogical | thanks! |
| 11:48 | benmoss | dnolen_: have you seen http://facebook.github.io/react/blog/2014/01/02/react-chrome-developer-tools.html ? |
| 11:48 | benmoss | works decently well with om it seems |
| 11:50 | jonathanj | `cbp: should be easy with Twisted ;) |
| 11:54 | technoma` | nothing's easy in twisted =( |
| 11:57 | jonathanj | it's an OT conversation for this channel, but i would really love for people who say that (and there do seem to be quite a number) to explain to me where they were tripped up |
| 11:57 | dnolen_ | benmoss: yes, we should submit a patch so that we can get names in |
| 11:57 | technoma` | I had the misfortune of taking over maintenance of a twisted app |
| 11:58 | technoma` | the API for reading public keys as part of the SSH server implementation was pretty much undocumented and didn't make a lot of sense |
| 11:58 | dnolen_ | benmoss: that said, I think we still want instrumentation that's browser agnostic, I'm pondering how to do this properly for Om. |
| 11:58 | technoma` | luckily I didn't have to make many modifications to that codebase, but every single one I made was painful |
| 11:59 | dnolen_ | benmoss: basically the idea is that any call to om/build could be intercepted |
| 11:59 | dnolen_ | and you can wrap in an instrumentation component |
| 12:00 | sm0ke_ | llasram: one quick question, can i do this any better (->> (avro/binary-encoded schema record) (avro/decode schema) type str) |
| 12:01 | sm0ke_ | llasram: so basically i want to know the type of the record, the above is obviosly inefficent |
| 12:06 | jonathanj | technoma`: ah, yes, unfortunately people who don't "get" Twisted tend to write a lot of unmaintainable code and then run away |
| 12:06 | technoma` | well then when I joined the #twisted channel it was full of people trying their best to convince themselves that async is the only reasonable way to write network servers, and yes, all this pain is totally worth it in the end |
| 12:06 | mikerod | Strange, I have a - Caused by: java.lang.ClassFormatError: Invalid method Code length 297606 in class file file/path/name - that *only* occurs with AOT-compilation |
| 12:06 | mikerod | well, technically only when I write class files |
| 12:07 | llasram | sm0ke_: Oh, -- you want to know the schema in a union that abracad will select to encode a particular object? |
| 12:07 | sm0ke_ | llasram: right |
| 12:07 | mikerod | I can make this happen in the REPL by doing `(binding [*compile-files* true] (macro-generating-too-much-code))` |
| 12:07 | llasram | sm0ke_: I honestly can't think of a clean way to do that off the top of my head... OOC, what's your use-case for it? |
| 12:08 | Anderkent | mikerod: but having the macro in a file and then doing (require 'my.ns) doesn't trigger it? |
| 12:08 | mikerod | However, when I do not have *compile-files* set, I see no issue with the method size |
| 12:08 | Anderkent | weird. |
| 12:08 | mikerod | Anderkent: no, |
| 12:08 | sm0ke_ | llasram: i want to vertically partition the data file location by creating sub folders named by type |
| 12:09 | sm0ke_ | llasram: so given a union of schema i cant read a partiular type by reading files from that subfolder |
| 12:11 | sdegutis | technoma`: so it wasn't just me then, they really were doing that |
| 12:11 | sm0ke_ | llasram: do you think it would be possible to attach type metadata to the encoded record? |
| 12:11 | mikerod | Anderkent: I do not get the exception even when calling clojure.core/load |
| 12:12 | sm0ke_ | llasram: so basically i can encode a record to bytes. take the meta,, then append the bytes |
| 12:12 | sm0ke_ | i dont know if it makes any sense |
| 12:12 | llasram | sm0ke_: So I think it'd be better to do this outside of the Avro layer. Having a union schema implies that each given record in the set (e.g. in the file) could be anything in the union |
| 12:12 | llasram | If you want to partition by type into separate files, then it seems like you should first partition by type, then write each file w/ the schema for that type |
| 12:14 | sm0ke_ | llasram: yes that too makes sense, but ideally the used should have independence of having a complex schema union |
| 12:14 | sm0ke_ | user* |
| 12:14 | mikerod | Well, never mind. load does fail with the same exception, it just doesn't print it out. :) |
| 12:17 | llasram | sm0ke_: Well. Hmm. Maybe. Unfortunately I don't have any good ideas right now though :-) |
| 12:17 | lpetit | clgv: hello |
| 12:17 | clgv | lpetit: hi |
| 12:18 | lpetit | clgv: do you use CCW these days? |
| 12:18 | `szx | functional thinking question: i'd like to iterate over all pairs in a sequence (using e.g. math.combinatorics) and update the results of the computation on *both* items |
| 12:18 | clgv | lpetit: yeah. never stopped to |
| 12:18 | sm0ke_ | llasram: thats ok, the use case is peculiar i see |
| 12:19 | clgv | lpetit: 8-10 hours a day 5 days a week ;) |
| 12:19 | lpetit | clgv: so I have a question for you. Would you have objections to have Ctrl-Alt-S always start in debug mode instead of run mode ? |
| 12:19 | lpetit | clgv: wow :-) |
| 12:19 | clgv | lpetit: well I can rebind the keys, right? |
| 12:20 | sm0ke_ | anyways i think the extra ser/de step is little cost to pay for partitioned data |
| 12:20 | clgv | lpetit: debug mode. you mean eclipse's debug launcher? |
| 12:20 | lpetit | clgv: yes, the question is about that, not about the exact key binding |
| 12:22 | clgv | lpetit: what would be the implications? eclipse asking me at least once to switch perspective and working breakpoints as default |
| 12:22 | lpetit | clgv: currently, when you're in a file, and you type ctrl-alt-c (or whatever you've rebound it to), you get (if no repl is active) : 1/ start in background, in "run launcher mode", of a java process for the project ; 2/ open a REPL View ; 3/ send the editor's code to the REPL ; 4/ switch the REPL's current ns to the editor's ns ; 5/ give focus to the REPL View. Right ? |
| 12:23 | clgv | yeah. |
| 12:23 | lpetit | clgv: hmmm, I think it depends on the exact settings. In my current configuration (but maybe not the default, maybe I've tweaked it, don't remember), it only tries to switch if code with breakpoints is hit. |
| 12:24 | lpetit | yeah, working breakpoints as a default, that would be |
| 12:24 | lpetit | so that the easiest think to do is also the more powerful one |
| 12:24 | clgv | well, if there are no disturbing effects I have no objections. |
| 12:25 | clgv | but I hardly use breakpoints. when I started with clojure I used them pretty often but that decreased |
| 12:25 | lpetit | clgv: I've managed to get this exact workflow work for leiningen projects, with the difference that it's leiningen which manages the start of the project VM. |
| 12:25 | clgv | lpetit: great. |
| 12:26 | clgv | lpetit: so all the leiningen magic will work? |
| 12:26 | lpetit | clgv: you may be annoyed by old breakpoints you had set going to life, with the new settings. |
| 12:26 | clgv | lpetit: well that'll happen only once |
| 12:26 | sdegutis | lazybot died |
| 12:27 | lpetit | clgv: yes, all leiningen magic. So for instance :injections taken into account |
| 12:27 | clgv | lpetit: then I could finally fix the missing `doc` and `source` by leiningen configuration ;) |
| 12:27 | lpetit | clgv: indeed |
| 12:28 | lpetit | I guess so, what would you do for that in leiningen, exactly? |
| 12:30 | clgv | lpetit: I guess I'd try vinyasa to map them into clojure.core (https://github.com/zcaudate/vinyasa) |
| 12:31 | clgv | lpetit: the simple answer is to just require clojure.repl after a namespace is loaded |
| 12:32 | lvh | hi |
| 12:33 | lvh | I'm looking desperately for a github project I found recently that used clojure and clojurescript; it composed three major projects. The last was definitely om (the react wrapper), I think the first was compojure, and the other one was datomic |
| 12:33 | clgv | lpetit: the simple solution is probably :injections as I checked |
| 12:33 | bbloom | lvh: was it dnolen's om-sync ? |
| 12:34 | lvh | dacom! |
| 12:34 | lvh | bbloom: nope: https://github.com/bellkev/dacom |
| 12:34 | bbloom | lvh: ah ok, b/c i thought david had an *example* in the om or om-sync wiki with all 3 of those |
| 12:34 | lvh | I thought it was codam but google kept thinking I wanted "condom"... |
| 12:34 | lvh | oh, awesome |
| 12:34 | lpetit | clgv: :injections will just send some code for evaluation when the repl server starts |
| 12:36 | clgv | lpetit: huh? as I read in the past it is prepended to every evaluation |
| 12:36 | lpetit | I wouldn't bet on it, but I may be wrong |
| 12:36 | clgv | lpetit: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/stable/sample.project.clj#L209 |
| 12:37 | technomancy | yes, it's for every eval-in-project call |
| 12:37 | clgv | oh. so only once per repl? |
| 12:37 | technomancy | typically that's when the JVM starts, but for eval-in :nrepl it will happen for processes that have been running for a while |
| 12:38 | technomancy | no, it can happen repeatedly |
| 12:38 | technomancy | depending on how eval-in-project is called |
| 12:38 | sandbags | anyone aware of a library equivalent to the Ruby RVG library ("RVG (Ruby Vector Graphics) is a facade for RMagick's Draw class that supplies a drawing API based on the Scalable Vector Graphics W3C recommendation.")? |
| 12:39 | sandbags | google isn't turning anything useful up |
| 12:39 | lpetit | clgv: well, I'm not sure :injections works with lein repl :headless at all (either on command line or via ccw) |
| 12:39 | sandbags | ah found something tikkba |
| 12:40 | sandbags | sorry for the noise |
| 12:40 | clgv | lpetit: I had no chance to try it in CCW so far ;) |
| 12:40 | `cbp | sandbags: it's not noise |
| 12:41 | `cbp | sandbags: there's also analemma |
| 12:41 | lpetit | clgv: i guess if :injections does not work with repl :headless, we should try to fix it at the heart, in leiningen itself. Probably by doing some kind of middleware which would always prepend code received via nrepl connections for evaluation ... |
| 12:42 | sandbags | `cbp: yeah i was just looking at that one too |
| 12:42 | sandbags | `cbp: i'm looking to dynamically generate an image from a logo and some text obtained via a REST API call |
| 12:42 | lpetit | That way, this would work the same either via "lein repl" (and the embedded repl client) and "lein repl :headless" |
| 12:43 | clgv | lpetit: well repl-y fixes the clojure.repl issue at the frontend |
| 12:44 | lpetit | at *one* front-end, the command-line one. And only for Linux/OS X I guess. |
| 12:44 | TEttinger | sandbags, there's even AWT for that if you wanted to do it with no dependencies |
| 12:45 | sandbags | TEttinger: i'm looking to output as a PNG |
| 12:45 | TEttinger | right, I use AWT for that |
| 12:45 | sandbags | it's been ~14 years since i used AWT |
| 12:45 | TEttinger | heh |
| 12:45 | sandbags | oh, right |
| 12:45 | sandbags | things change :) |
| 12:45 | sandbags | does AWT work headless? |
| 12:45 | clgv | lpetit: yeah ok. that's true it is only that frontend... |
| 12:46 | sandbags | i'll be doing this on an EC2 instance running probably debian |
| 12:46 | TEttinger | I actually have no idea, I have it running as a console app, but it might need some kind of graphics capability |
| 12:49 | TEttinger | I wrote this a long time ago and have been tweaking it continually for different fonts I need rendered https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11914692/mess.clj |
| 12:50 | sandbags | thanks TEttinger |
| 12:52 | TEttinger | sandbags, I uh wouldn't try running it as-is, but the general method should be clear enough of how to interact with AWT from clojure. if you do want to run it, it expects https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11914692/unicode.txt in the same dir... and a bunch of undocumented command line args |
| 12:53 | sandbags | heh, yeah i was just looking at it as source material :) |
| 12:57 | sdegutis | Jim Weirich's last commit, plus comments: https://github.com/jimweirich/wyriki/commit/d28fac7f18aeacb00d8ad3460a0a5a901617c2d4 -- I'm surprised nobody's commented "He's dead, Jim." |
| 12:57 | sdegutis | A little longer and he would have gotten into Clojure probably. All the Rubyists are doing it. |
| 12:57 | technomancy | he gave a talk on clojure at strange loop |
| 12:57 | sandbags | i believe he said he was dabbling |
| 12:57 | technomancy | it was awesome |
| 12:58 | technomancy | well, a talk on the Y combinator, given in Clojure and Emacs |
| 12:58 | sdegutis | Although I guess it would be disrespectful to say "He's dead, Jim." |
| 12:59 | pcn | you think? |
| 12:59 | sdegutis | I'm starting to think so. |
| 12:59 | pcn | Yeah. I kind of hope no-one does that |
| 12:59 | llasram | sdegutis: And how are you enjoying your visit to our planet? ;-) |
| 13:00 | sdegutis | It's okay so far. Missing the context free grammar back home. |
| 13:01 | sdegutis | I like your "soda pop" though. |
| 13:01 | `cbp | first concat instead of conj now this |
| 13:01 | `cbp | you done gone insane |
| 13:01 | sdegutis | Oh sorry, is it just "pop"? I thought that was slang for "punch". |
| 13:05 | sdegutis | It's possible Jim isn't really dead. |
| 13:06 | sdegutis | He hasn't tweeted or committed recently, but the only news that he's passed is that someone said RIP on his github commit. |
| 13:06 | sdegutis | Hope this isn't a prank. |
| 13:07 | kitallis | really? |
| 13:07 | sdegutis | More likely I'm probably just in denial. |
| 13:07 | sdegutis | First stage of grieving and all that. |
| 13:10 | sdegutis | Also I avoid dynamic vars like the plague. Is this healthy? |
| 13:10 | technomancy | yes |
| 13:10 | sdegutis | I'm tempted to use one right now, to toggle whether you're an admin previewing the site, or just a normal user. |
| 13:10 | technomancy | that's what they said about the black death too |
| 13:11 | technomancy | "it's just a few rats; what's the worst that could happen?" |
| 13:11 | sdegutis | The alternative is changing API functions to take another argument (:preview?), or possibly duplicating page code to render under a new URL or something. |
| 13:11 | technomancy | ps. don't listen to me |
| 13:11 | sdegutis | Why not? |
| 13:11 | technomancy | because I lie a lot |
| 13:12 | sdegutis | Wait... is that.. is that a lie? |
| 13:13 | technomancy | seriously though, I think it's a matter of dividing code into the functional core and imperative shell. things that would be terrible in library code might be acceptable when used at the "outside" of the codebase |
| 13:13 | sdegutis | (trptcolin: was Jim Weirich the one who showed up at our 8LU in LVille a few years ago? Or was that someone else?) |
| 13:13 | technomancy | because as long as the core is functional, and the shell is small enough, you can fit everything you need to know into your head at once. |
| 13:13 | sdegutis | technomancy: hmm, now that you mention it, that sounds like a familiar paradigm |
| 13:14 | sdegutis | Like, as long as the dynamic var never strays into the core, then it's okay. |
| 13:14 | technomancy | dynamic vars add complexity overhead. as long as they don't blow your complexity budget, they can be a reasonable trade-off if you know their scope won't be too broad |
| 13:14 | sdegutis | Except in this case, that's exactly what it'd be doing. Which makes me noivous. |
| 13:14 | technomancy | pretty much, yeah |
| 13:14 | trptcolin | sdegutis: i don't remember seeing him here, but met him at a few confs around here. such a nice person. |
| 13:14 | sdegutis | Hmm. Now I wonder who that guy was. I think he was a Jim. He wrote a book, and I think he gave us a mug. |
| 13:15 | technomancy | yeah, Jim was one of the friendliest and most welcoming programmers I knew |
| 13:15 | technomancy | the Emacs Starter Kit was actually his idea that I ran with |
| 13:15 | sdegutis | So it was *you*!! |
| 13:15 | trptcolin | sdegutis: oh, you're thinking of james grenning i believe |
| 13:15 | sdegutis | Ah yes. |
| 13:16 | sdegutis | Too many Jims. |
| 13:16 | sdegutis | Er, I mean, Jim names. Not too many people. |
| 13:17 | zerowidth | sdegutis: evan phoenix said he had confirmation from several sources before tweeting about it |
| 13:17 | sdegutis | :/ |
| 13:19 | `cbp | Dynamic vars are bad! They make me afraid of putting things on other threads |
| 13:19 | sdegutis | Hmm, that's an interesting consideration. |
| 13:20 | sdegutis | You'd have to be sure to read it first and pass it to the other thread if anything. |
| 13:20 | technomancy | in your core you need to write code that works in any threading context. in your shell, you can usually know what threading context a given defn will be used in. |
| 13:21 | sdegutis | So let's say you have a webapp (in this context, is it "let's |
| 13:21 | sdegutis | " or "lets"?) |
| 13:22 | technomancy | let us |
| 13:22 | sdegutis | In this case, we can only assume each request runs in its own thread (might not be true, but safest assumption). |
| 13:23 | sdegutis | So the only time you'd want to do other threading is when you're explicitly doing background work. At which case you're ideally spinning up the thread at the high-level of the request, not low-down into whatever the request handler is doing. |
| 13:23 | sdegutis | Hmm, in that case, dynamic vars seem perfect! Because you'd statically know which core functions are on what thread. |
| 13:34 | technomancy | oh, plus you have laziness to consider |
| 13:34 | technomancy | but typically at the outside you have all you need to make an informed choice |
| 13:35 | sdegutis | Thanks all. |
| 13:38 | sandbags | definitely liking gorilla repl |
| 13:41 | sdegutis | Mostly for graphs/charts, right? |
| 13:46 | sandbags | well as a playtime repl it's also pretty nice |
| 13:46 | technomancy | dammit |
| 13:46 | sandbags | but the USP's are the Markdown/Latex note support |
| 13:46 | technomancy | I was gonna do portable rich-content repls as my clojure/west talk |
| 13:46 | sandbags | save/load session |
| 13:47 | sandbags | i'm hoping adding MathML isn't too hard as it's been ~20 years since i did any Latex |
| 13:47 | technomancy | now people are going to keep going off and implementing this stuff in editor-specific ways, aren't they |
| 13:47 | sandbags | not sure what that talk doesn't still fly |
| 13:48 | llasram | technomancy: Until you stop them / show them how its done! |
| 13:48 | technomancy | llasram: but I'm not even using clojure any more =P |
| 13:48 | technomancy | I don't want to write a bunch of code just to stop people from doing something I think is wrong-headed |
| 13:48 | technomancy | but if people keep pulling this stuff I might have to |
| 13:49 | bbloom | technomancy: surely if your yak shaving powers are insufficient, we must call cemerick |
| 13:49 | bbloom | technomancy: or abandon all hope |
| 13:49 | technomancy | bbloom: already in the middle of a massive yak shave, sorry |
| 13:49 | bbloom | mmmm yak fur |
| 13:49 | technomancy | https://secure.flickr.com/photos/technomancy/12642312163/ |
| 13:50 | michaniskin | that's the best time to get involved with more yak shaves though! |
| 13:50 | bbloom | technomancy: are you seriously going to make your own keyboard? |
| 13:50 | michaniskin | the Inception Shave is how it's done, didn't you know? |
| 13:50 | bbloom | technomancy: that's pretty hardcore. |
| 13:50 | technomancy | bbloom: just waiting for the microcontroller to arrive in the mail |
| 13:50 | sdegutis | technomancy: not using clojure anymore, hmm? do you still maintain lein? |
| 13:51 | technomancy | sdegutis: here and there |
| 13:51 | bbloom | technomancy: i bow at the feet of your yak blade |
| 13:51 | TimMc | I don't understand Flickr anymore. |
| 13:51 | bbloom | technomancy: i'm clicking through more photos. is this a mini keyboard for you kid? |
| 13:51 | technomancy | bbloom: no, he's just modelling it |
| 13:52 | bbloom | technomancy: ah ok |
| 13:52 | bbloom | i like the big green buttons :-P |
| 13:52 | technomancy | I wouldn't go otaku for my kids =) |
| 13:52 | technomancy | (no labels, I mean) |
| 13:52 | technomancy | not till they're at least ten anyway |
| 13:52 | bbloom | haha |
| 13:52 | bbloom | that coffee shop looks familiar... |
| 13:52 | bbloom | ok i'm done :-P |
| 13:54 | TravisD | technomancy: Is there some underlying idea behind those cool looking keyboards? |
| 13:54 | TravisD | Like, a reason you made them, instead of using what's available |
| 13:55 | technomancy | TravisD: a few main things |
| 13:55 | technomancy | 0) mechanical switches have a really crisp feel to them that make me happy |
| 13:56 | technomancy | 1) most keyboards are staggered by row, which comes from trying to avoid typewriter jams. I like mine staggered by column, because I'm a human with fingers of different lengths. |
| 13:56 | technomancy | 2) having an on-board microcontroller with firmware you can reprogram on the fly is awesome |
| 13:56 | TravisD | hehe, cool :) How many have you made? |
| 13:56 | TravisD | Seems like something that would take some practice |
| 13:56 | turbofail | i prefer to enforce a uniform finger length |
| 13:56 | technomancy | TravisD: I've assembled one from a kit, which I posted about here: http://technomancy.us/172 |
| 13:57 | bbloom | i use a kenesis contoured for reasons #0 and #1, but RE: #2 it has a microcontroller for programming which i haven't used since the day i got it and remapped caps lock to control |
| 13:57 | technomancy | TravisD: and I'm in the middle of building one from scratch: https://github.com/technomancy/atreus |
| 13:57 | technomancy | bbloom: does it support unshifted parens? that's one of my favourite tricks |
| 13:57 | TimMc | turbofail: I know someone who doesn't trim his pinky nails because that gives him better reach... |
| 13:58 | TravisD | technomancy: cool, thanks :) |
| 13:58 | bbloom | technomancy: i assume i could make it do that somehow, but my brain already has a hard enough time going back to my laptop keyboard & i don't wanna have to drag around a keyboard to coffee shops like *cough* some folks |
| 13:58 | amalloy | that's why you'll never be cool, bbloom |
| 13:58 | technomancy | bbloom: yeah, that's actually why I don't have a kinesis |
| 13:59 | technomancy | even the ergodox is a bit of a beast to drag to coffee shops, that's why I started working on my own |
| 13:59 | turbofail | TimMc: ha. i was envisioning something a little more violent. |
| 13:59 | bbloom | technomancy: when you're finished with that yak, you should totally shave a whole flock (herd? what do you call multiple yaks?) |
| 14:00 | bbloom | technomancy: by that, i mean, you should totally make a tri-component laptop where the display separates from the two halves of the keyboard |
| 14:00 | bbloom | how hard could it be really? |
| 14:00 | bbloom | if you don't do it, amalloy won't think you're cool |
| 14:01 | technomancy | bbloom: I'm definitely going to be keeping copious notes in case anyone else wants to build one |
| 14:01 | technomancy | the ergodox runs $240 if you get in on a group-buy with volume discounts; mine can be made for about $100 plus shipping |
| 14:01 | technomancy | I mean, assuming I get it working |
| 14:01 | bbloom | heh |
| 14:02 | benkay | any Listora folks in the room? |
| 14:06 | dnolen_ | Om 0.5.0 going out, support React 0.9.0 |
| 14:06 | dnolen_ | supports |
| 14:09 | TEttinger | bbloom, oh man. |
| 14:10 | fredyr | dnolen_: oh, does support means require 0.9.0? |
| 14:10 | bbloom | TEttinger: ? |
| 14:10 | dnolen_ | fredyr: yes |
| 14:10 | fredyr | dnolen_: that might explain what im seeing right now then |
| 14:10 | fredyr | dnolen_: :) |
| 14:11 | dnolen_ | fredyr: I've updated all the docs / tutorials etc. Feel free to fix up anything I may have missed. |
| 14:11 | dnolen_ | fredyr: or if it's actually in the Om repo, point it out. |
| 14:11 | fredyr | dnolen_: sure, but this was on my part |
| 14:12 | fredyr | dnolen_: did update cljs version and om, but missed the new react version |
| 14:12 | fredyr | dnolen_: will def let you know if i find anything |
| 14:12 | dnolen_ | fredyr: cool thx |
| 14:12 | TEttinger | bbloom, the old dell axims came with external keyboards that unfolded kinda like that http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/60oAAMXQyfFSA7Bp/$(KGrHqN,!k8FH6eRO)GKBS!7Bont0Q~~60_1.JPG?set_id=8800005007 |
| 14:13 | bbloom | TEttinger: ha! i remember playing with something like that once, crazy |
| 14:13 | TEttinger | it had a good motion too |
| 14:14 | TEttinger | it would unfold into a shape like http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/1f/88/ade9c060ada0c18b51a20210.L.jpg |
| 14:28 | sdegutis | I can't help but think that macros complicate things too much for too little gain. |
| 14:29 | AimHere | Writing macros is complicated and painful. Once they're properly wrote, they make your life easier |
| 14:30 | sdegutis | Still. |
| 14:33 | AimHere | Besides, the solution if you're having that very problem is don't use macros |
| 14:33 | fredyr | dnolen_: i'm getting a mysterious error with build-all when trying to upgrade to 0.5.0 |
| 14:34 | fredyr | dnolen_: my component function never gets called, but i get a couple of numbers in the dom |
| 14:34 | amalloy | AimHere: if you find writing macros complicated and painful, you're either writing macros that are too complex, or you don't have enough practice writing them |
| 14:34 | dnolen_ | fredyr: did you make the necessary changes outlined in 0.5.0-rc1? |
| 14:36 | muhoo | technomancy: did you abandon the keyboard pants? |
| 14:36 | technomancy | muhoo: basically they were too much work to get in and out of when I needed to use the loo |
| 14:37 | `cbp | the keyboard pants? |
| 14:37 | `cbp | im dying |
| 14:37 | sdegutis | :'( |
| 14:37 | sdegutis | oops typo i meant :) |
| 14:38 | amalloy | `cbp: http://www.flickr.com/photos/technomancy/4397554484/ |
| 14:39 | `cbp | hah |
| 14:39 | technomancy | muhoo: I do plan on creating a mount for my keyboard that hangs below the surface of my desk and lets me type in a more neutral position |
| 14:39 | amalloy | this was back around the time of the first conj, i think? |
| 14:39 | fredyr | dnolen_: where do i find those? |
| 14:39 | technomancy | kind of a compromise between keyboard pants and the conventional position |
| 14:39 | dnolen_ | fredyr: CHANGES.md |
| 14:39 | amalloy | technomancy: +100 to that idea, by the way - i've done that at my last two jobs |
| 14:40 | dnolen_ | fredyr: also the React blog |
| 14:40 | technomancy | amalloy: cool |
| 14:40 | technomancy | I'm hoping to build something with tenting |
| 14:40 | amalloy | eh? |
| 14:40 | muhoo | .... tenting?.... o_O |
| 14:41 | technomancy | amalloy: so my hands don't have to lay out flat |
| 14:41 | technomancy | kinda like this http://www.thehumansolution.com/kinesis-ascent-multi-tent-accessory-kit.html |
| 14:41 | technomancy | but hanging below the surface of the desk |
| 14:42 | amalloy | ninjudd had one of those |
| 14:42 | fredyr | dnolen_: right, i saw that, but i don't see them breaking anything w/ build-all, right? |
| 14:42 | amalloy | before he discovered the kinesis, i guess |
| 14:42 | dnolen_ | fredyr: hard to say, I haven't encountered any issues with build-all |
| 14:42 | dnolen_ | fredyr: I have examples that use it and I test against Om TodoMVC |
| 14:43 | dnolen_ | which also uses it |
| 14:43 | fredyr | dnolen_: yeah, its probably something ive done |
| 14:44 | fredyr | dnolen_: it works if i swap it for build f (first entries) |
| 14:50 | fredyr | dnolen_: it seems to have something to do with mapping over the cursor |
| 14:51 | fredyr | dnolen_: i got it to work with a manual (mapv (fn [x] (om/build entry-component x)) entries) |
| 14:51 | fredyr | dnolen_: but using map gave the same error |
| 14:53 | amalloy | ~map |
| 14:53 | clojurebot | map is hard |
| 14:53 | dnolen_ | fredyr: you should be able to find your problem with source maps. |
| 14:53 | amalloy | well, i was going for "map is LAZY", but close enough |
| 14:53 | dnolen_ | fredyr: I see no reason for mapv to work over map |
| 14:54 | fredyr | dnolen_: hmm ok, thanks i'll try to dig into it |
| 14:56 | TravisD | For a datatype T, are T. and ->T identical functions? |
| 14:57 | amalloy | TravisD: no, because T. isn't a function |
| 14:57 | TravisD | ah |
| 14:59 | TravisD | amalloy: I'm just looking at the documentation. Is it a reader macro for (new T ...), which is a special form? |
| 14:59 | TravisD | maybe not a reader-macro. |
| 15:00 | llasram | TravisD: I don't think there's an official name. I call them "pseudo-macros" |
| 15:01 | llasram | They're expanded by the compiler during macro-expansion |
| 15:02 | bbloom | llasram: it's a reader macro. clojure offers several types of (non-extensible!) reader macros |
| 15:03 | llasram | bbloom: No, I don't think so |
| 15:03 | llasram | ,`(Example.) |
| 15:03 | clojurebot | (Example.) |
| 15:03 | llasram | ,`(.example again) |
| 15:03 | clojurebot | (.example sandbox/again) |
| 15:03 | llasram | Compiler, not reader |
| 15:03 | bbloom | llasram: good point |
| 15:03 | bbloom | llasram: ok then, it's a compiler-macro :-) |
| 15:04 | TravisD | I don't know much about macros, but can one macro create new macros? Then it might make sense that defrecord introduces the DataType. macro |
| 15:04 | llasram | But at least does happen as part of macro-expansion |
| 15:04 | llasram | ,(macroexpand `(Example.)) |
| 15:04 | clojurebot | (new Example) |
| 15:04 | llasram | ,(macroexpand `(.example here)) |
| 15:04 | clojurebot | (. sandbox/here example) |
| 15:04 | TravisD | oh weird, so it actually works even for things that aren't datatypes |
| 15:04 | TravisD | like, arbitrary symbols |
| 15:05 | bbloom | llasram: ok then, it's a compiler-macro :-) |
| 15:05 | llasram | TravisD: Yeah `Symbol.` and `.symbol` are magic "compiler-macro" syntax |
| 15:05 | llasram | (as we will now call them) |
| 15:05 | TravisD | that's a bit sad :( |
| 15:06 | llasram | It is an odd complication, but the result is convenient |
| 15:06 | TravisD | yeah, true |
| 15:07 | TravisD | I guess it's not really any different from special forms |
| 15:08 | TravisD | like, the compiler already has a few special cases. It's not /so/ strange to add a whole family of special cases, if they're convenient |
| 15:12 | bbloom | syntax is inherently special cases |
| 15:12 | bbloom | that's what syntax is |
| 15:12 | bbloom | clojure decided that syntax should be minimal, but the correct amount is slightly more than scheme |
| 15:12 | bbloom | seems reasonable to me :-P |
| 15:13 | pjstadig | "slightly more"? |
| 15:14 | bbloom | pjstadig: scheme has strings with escape sequences and the cons dot notation, and numbers, ratios, etc |
| 15:14 | bbloom | pjstadig: what did clojure add? a few extra sets of matching braces, repurposed dot, and the deref @ operator? |
| 15:14 | bbloom | pjstadig: yeah, slightly more :-P |
| 15:14 | pjstadig | do you consider destructuring as syntax? |
| 15:15 | bbloom | yes, but now you're getting in to the question of where does syntax live |
| 15:15 | bbloom | i consider any function that takes position arguments to be syntax :-P |
| 15:16 | pjstadig | well i mean i'm not necessarily disagreeing with you |
| 15:16 | pjstadig | i wouldn't say there's "buttloads more" syntax in clojure |
| 15:16 | pjstadig | but i might go a smidge higher than slightly more |
| 15:17 | bbloom | *shrug* pick a word |
| 15:17 | pjstadig | haha |
| 15:17 | pjstadig | i define my word to be semantically not whatever your word is :-p |
| 15:18 | dnolen_ | pjstadig: well, modern Scheme has a lot a syntax now I would say, it's been ~16 years since you could say Scheme was truly minimal syntax wise. |
| 15:26 | maglop | Hi; I'm looking to preprocess a file line by line with lazy-seq before I pass it on to enlive. I don't see a way to get a Reader or InputStream interface to a seq, though. Am I approaching this badly? |
| 15:30 | Wild_Cat | maglop: line-seq, maybe? |
| 15:32 | maglop | That gets me the first part, but then I need to somehow get back to exposing that as bytes as a Reader |
| 15:33 | rhg135 | any thoughts https://bitbucket.org/rhg135/gutter |
| 15:33 | Wild_Cat | maglop: so you need something that takes a Reader and transforms it to another Reader that returns a lazy seq of the first Reader's lines? |
| 15:34 | rhg135 | it isn't too bad? |
| 15:34 | Wild_Cat | maglop: isn't that the definition of the BufferedReader interface? |
| 15:35 | maglop | Wild_Cat: maybe? I will be changing the data on the way, though |
| 15:35 | benmoss | rhg135: you know about enliven? |
| 15:35 | benmoss | enlive rather |
| 15:35 | rhg135 | yup |
| 15:35 | rhg135 | i've used it too |
| 15:36 | rhg135 | had some crazy idea jsou was faster |
| 15:36 | maglop | Takes a Reader, modifies the data on a line by line basis, and then exposes the modified data as a Reader |
| 15:38 | sdegutis_ | Clojure has 0% syntax. |
| 15:38 | sdegutis_ | Absolutely none. |
| 15:38 | rhg135 | nah |
| 15:38 | rhg135 | more like %3 |
| 15:39 | rhg135 | well it depends |
| 15:39 | rhg135 | it isn't necessary to lear but its nice |
| 15:50 | sdegutis_ | Okay, let's compromise and say it's about 80% syntax. |
| 15:51 | sdegutis_ | But that the 20% that's semantics happens to be really super consistent. |
| 15:53 | amalloy | except nth |
| 15:53 | amalloy | that is super inconsistent |
| 15:54 | rhg135 | how is nth inconsistent? |
| 15:54 | amalloy | it's the only sequence function that takes the collection as its first arg |
| 15:55 | amalloy | (nth coll n), (take n coll), (map f coll) |
| 15:56 | dkinzer | yeah, but it's consistent with it's origin in scheme. http://hyperpolyglot.org/lisp |
| 15:56 | amalloy | it's also one of very few functions that will be either O(1) or O(n) depending on what you pass it |
| 15:56 | amalloy | dkinzer: yes, i'm aware of why we have this function; that doesn't make it consistent with clojure |
| 15:56 | dkinzer | historical consistency sometimes trumps other stuff. |
| 15:56 | amalloy | dkinzer: well, send a pull request replacing first/rest with car/cdr |
| 15:56 | dkinzer | amalloy: true. |
| 15:57 | dkinzer | :) |
| 16:00 | dkinzer | though racket uses both (car, first) and (cdr, rest).. but maybe racket is not really scheme. |
| 16:03 | technomancy | butlast having no hyphen =\ |
| 16:03 | joegallo | ugh, yes |
| 16:03 | technomancy | you know: real, hard-hitting issues |
| 16:06 | amalloy | i dunno, i'm okay with butlast's name. but-last isn't really better, because there's no...verb? that sounds silly, but mashing an adjective together with a modifier feels better to me than doing it with a verb |
| 16:08 | sveri1 | hi, i am trying to login with the friends library and i use this code: http://pastebin.com/ajnhffa4 However, everytime i submit my form i get a 404 error back saying the resource was not found, any ideas what I am missing here? |
| 16:08 | amalloy | the fact that butlast isn't lazy and drop-last is...*that* bothers me |
| 16:08 | technomancy | yeah, know that I think about it the "you use a hyphen for identifiers containing two words" comes from CL, not clojure |
| 16:08 | technomancy | *now |
| 16:08 | sdegutis_ | amalloy: it returns a single element though, not a whole coll |
| 16:08 | amalloy | sdegutis_: not true at all |
| 16:08 | sdegutis_ | oh |
| 16:08 | sdegutis_ | amalloy: please disconfuse me |
| 16:09 | sdegutis_ | ,(nth [1 2 3] 1) |
| 16:09 | clojurebot | 2 |
| 16:09 | amalloy | &(butlast [1 2 3 4]) |
| 16:09 | amalloy | oh, you're talking about forever ago |
| 16:09 | sdegutis_ | yep, im always behind the times |
| 16:09 | amalloy | wait what? 2? |
| 16:09 | sdegutis_ | 0-based |
| 16:09 | amalloy | oh, that was clojurebot. lazybot is ignoring me |
| 16:09 | sdegutis_ | lazybot is dead |
| 16:09 | dkinzer | not so weird also when you consider that most of the core operators don't have hyphens. |
| 16:09 | amalloy | i thought 2 was the answer to (butlast [1 2 3 4]) and i was going to change careers |
| 16:10 | sdegutis_ | i mean, missing |
| 16:10 | sdegutis_ | amalloy: wow, what kind of trauma have you been going through that such a small discontinuity is the straw that killed the camel with two stones? |
| 16:11 | amalloy | lazybot, i summon thee! |
| 16:11 | dkinzer | ,(butlast [1 2 3 4]) |
| 16:11 | clojurebot | (1 2 3) |
| 16:11 | sdegutis_ | WHOA. |
| 16:11 | sdegutis_ | that was cool |
| 16:11 | amalloy | *chuckle* |
| 16:11 | TravisD | amalloy: Convenient timing? Or does it somehow monitor the channel through the other bots? |
| 16:12 | amalloy | i just restarted him |
| 16:12 | amalloy | &1 |
| 16:12 | lazybot | ⇒ 1 |
| 16:12 | technomancy | how about this: assoc works on vectors, but not dissoc |
| 16:14 | sdegutis_ | I followed the mailing list thread about that. That's about the time I started realizing maybe Clojure isn't going in the best direction. |
| 16:14 | sdegutis_ | &() |
| 16:14 | lazybot | ⇒ () |
| 16:14 | sdegutis_ | That too. |
| 16:15 | sdegutis_ | Every time you see an unquoted set of parentheses, it's a function call. Except when they're empty, then it's a literal list. |
| 16:15 | sdegutis_ | ,(= () '()) |
| 16:15 | clojurebot | true |
| 16:15 | sdegutis_ | Oh man. That's totally a nerdy robot emoticon! |
| 16:17 | devn | sdegutis_: I have Leah Hanson's ear on Romeo. I think she's going to stop by sometime this week and give me some guidance. |
| 16:17 | devn | She's working on the type checker. |
| 16:17 | mklappstuhl_ | whats an idiomatic way to check if a "stringA" starts with "str" ? |
| 16:17 | technomancy | sdegutis_: also in letfn, proxy, and reify, paren sets don't indicate function calls but definitions |
| 16:18 | sdegutis_ | devn: sweet |
| 16:18 | devn | mklappstuhl_: you could use java |
| 16:18 | devn | ,(.startsWith "abc" "a") |
| 16:18 | clojurebot | true |
| 16:18 | technomancy | (and maybe a few other hosty macros) |
| 16:18 | amalloy | also deftype and defrecord, which technomancy prefers to believe don't exist |
| 16:18 | sdegutis_ | technomancy: I totally agree: out of all languages, Clojure is probably the most consistent. |
| 16:18 | devn | ,(re-find #"^a" "abc") |
| 16:18 | clojurebot | "a" |
| 16:18 | llasram | mklappstuhl_: ##(.startsWith "stringA" "str") |
| 16:18 | lazybot | ⇒ true |
| 16:18 | bbloom | +1 for the re- approach |
| 16:18 | technomancy | amalloy: la la la can't hear you |
| 16:18 | amalloy | and sometimes in fn/defn: (fn ([x] x) ([x y] (+ x y))) |
| 16:19 | llasram | Huh, I thought that went to lazybot |
| 16:19 | devn | ,I like using re-* personaly |
| 16:19 | clojurebot | #<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: I in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)> |
| 16:19 | llasram | ,(.startsWith "stringA" "str") |
| 16:19 | clojurebot | true |
| 16:19 | devn | personally |
| 16:19 | llasram | Whoa, I was lagged |
| 16:19 | devn | llasram: no worries :) |
| 16:19 | technomancy | sdegutis_: "all languages" being "th eset of languages you can get paid to work in"? |
| 16:19 | devn | heh |
| 16:19 | sdegutis_ | technomancy denies deftype? But.. how else do you define functions in Clojure programs? |
| 16:20 | sdegutis_ | technomancy: No, all languages. |
| 16:20 | sdegutis_ | I've never seen or heard of a more consistent language than Clojure. |
| 16:20 | dkinzer | The empty parentheses one is totally weird. |
| 16:20 | sdegutis_ | Prove me wrong please. I really want to be wrong. |
| 16:20 | technomancy | sdegutis_: have you learned forth? |
| 16:21 | sdegutis_ | dkinzer: I'm very grateful to find someone who agrees with me on this; last time I brought it up, I got a lot of "nah that's totally consistent and expected and good and normal" |
| 16:21 | sdegutis_ | technomancy: That toy language? |
| 16:21 | devn | does anyone here have any opinions on postgres-friendly sql abstractions in clojure beyond jdbc, something that's a bit more "i don't know SQL but have used ActiveRecord" friendly? How about one that /isn't/ korma? |
| 16:21 | sdegutis_ | technomancy: Can you write *actual programs* in it? |
| 16:21 | sdegutis_ | That do, like, useful things? |
| 16:21 | sdegutis_ | I thought it was an esolang. |
| 16:21 | technomancy | actually kind of tempted to write my keyboard firmware in forth |
| 16:21 | sdegutis_ | ! |
| 16:22 | devn | my god technomancy, you are a bad ass. |
| 16:22 | dkinzer | sdegutis_: nah, I agree with you; it doesn't make any sense. It's supposed to be an empty set so why not just return the something with the set syntax? |
| 16:22 | technomancy | devn: well I haven't *done* it |
| 16:22 | devn | you will have forth-powered, laptop pants |
| 16:22 | devn | err keyboard pants |
| 16:22 | technomancy | I wimped out and ordered an AVR microcontroller instead so it could run one of the existing firmwares |
| 16:22 | sdegutis_ | technomancy: no, he's right actually; I've never met anyone who talked about writing firmware; that's pretty hard core |
| 16:23 | technomancy | but I specifically bought this ARM-based one because I wanted to run a forth or scheme on it |
| 16:23 | technomancy | sdegutis_: you should hang out in #geekhack |
| 16:23 | devn | technomancy: omg they have a freenode channel?! |
| 16:23 | sdegutis_ | Nope. I don't want to *always* feel like I'm writing in QBasic while everyone around me is inventing anti-gravity force fields. |
| 16:23 | devn | geekhack is a fantastic community |
| 16:24 | sdegutis_ | Just once in a while :) |
| 16:24 | technomancy | devn: except for the caveat of "uses php-based forum software non-ironically" I agree =) |
| 16:24 | devn | :) It gets the job done. *shrug* |
| 16:24 | sdegutis | oh man, i wrote a phpbb competitor once in.. php |
| 16:25 | devn | So, one more attempt: Do you guys have a suggestion on a SQL abstraction lib that isn't Korma and provides a semi-friendly interface to postgres? |
| 16:25 | sdegutis | Is Datomic an option? |
| 16:25 | devn | I've used jdbc, but I'm going to be leveling someone up and want to ease him in. |
| 16:26 | devn | sdegutis: unfortunately no. |
| 16:26 | sdegutis | Sorry. |
| 16:29 | xuser | devn: java.jdbc has a minimal DSL I think |
| 16:29 | mklappstuhl_ | I'm surprised how how hard some simple things in clojure can be sometimes. I want to filter a list of strings based on an input string. It's fairly trivial using .startsWith but using re-find it becomes quite a bit more complex |
| 16:31 | sdegutis | mklappstuhl_: the Clojure philosophy is to use the platform when it's more convenient I think |
| 16:32 | sdegutis | mklappstuhl_: I've used #(.startsWith %) with filter I think |
| 16:32 | technomancy | mklappstuhl_: oh man, that reminds me of another of my gripes |
| 16:32 | technomancy | if regexes were ifn this would be easy |
| 16:32 | technomancy | you probably just want partial re-find though |
| 16:32 | BobSchack | devn https://github.com/krisajenkins/yesql if you're not looking an ORM. |
| 16:32 | ToBeReplaced | how do i type-hint ProcessBuilder to avoid reflection? |
| 16:32 | sdegutis | technomancy: isn't %() preferred over partial btw? |
| 16:34 | mklappstuhl_ | sdegutis, issue with platform is, that it varies from platform to platform :D |
| 16:34 | technomancy | sdegutis: not by me =P |
| 16:35 | dkinzer | ,[(identical? '() ()) (identical? '() []) (= '() []) (= '() #{})] |
| 16:35 | clojurebot | [true false true false] |
| 16:35 | sdegutis | mklappstuhl_: there's only one platform, Java. don't let anyone tell you otherwise! |
| 16:37 | mklappstuhl_ | sdegutis, I'm actually using cljs right now ;D |
| 16:37 | amalloy | &(identical? () (list)) |
| 16:37 | lazybot | ⇒ true |
| 16:37 | sdegutis | mklappstuhl_: nice |
| 16:37 | amalloy | *chuckle* if CL did that, the entire macro system would collapse |
| 16:40 | whodidthis | any tips on doing multiple channels over a single channel?=( |
| 16:41 | ToBeReplaced | whodidthis: mix and mult for n-to-1 and 1-to-n |
| 16:41 | sdegutis | So, I heard some people talking about Common Lisp recently. Seems like a good production read Lisp. What do you all think? |
| 16:41 | sdegutis | *ready |
| 16:42 | technomancy | "production" is a funny word |
| 16:42 | technomancy | what are you producing? |
| 16:42 | technomancy | HTTP responses, I guess? |
| 16:42 | technomancy | it makes me think of factory assembly lines |
| 16:43 | ToBeReplaced | I'm looking for a way to invoke (ProcessBuilder. (into-array ["echo" "hi"])) without causing reflection -- any recommendations? afaik i can't type-hint the complex type |
| 16:43 | sdegutis | You know, Production. |
| 16:43 | sdegutis | Like, where the code goes when I deploy to the nodes. |
| 16:44 | amalloy | ToBeReplaced: ^"[Ljava.lang.String" |
| 16:44 | sdegutis | The thing that executes "ENV=production sudo rake server:start". |
| 16:44 | technomancy | ToBeReplaced: I don't think it's possible for reflection to be a bottleneck when launching processes FWIW |
| 16:44 | amalloy | errrr, might need to be ^"[Ljava.lang.String;" |
| 16:44 | amalloy | &(class (into-array ["x"])) |
| 16:44 | lazybot | ⇒ [Ljava.lang.String; |
| 16:45 | amalloy | well, that's true too. but maybe you want to be able to `lein check` and not get any warnings |
| 16:45 | ToBeReplaced | amalloy: correct, thanks, didn't know i could put quotes around it |
| 16:45 | ToBeReplaced | technomancy: you're right, it's not a bottleneck -- it was ugly with lein check and it's an easy standard to hold people to |
| 16:46 | technomancy | ah, sure |
| 17:06 | akurilin | Anybody here using Migratus? I'm wondering if multiple statements in a migration all get wrapped into one single transaction. I'm looking at the source and it seems to be the case, but I just wanted a sanity check: https://github.com/pjstadig/migratus/blob/master/src/migratus/database.clj#L43 |
| 17:16 | bitemyapp | technomancy: :env/blah keywords in Leiningen defproject, how do I "or"? |
| 17:18 | technomancy | bitemyapp: hrm... I think you might need unquote or read-eval for that |
| 17:18 | bitemyapp | you know what, n/m, it's only for GPG stuff I guess. |
| 17:18 | bitemyapp | we're not using it for that, we just wanted a fallback for something nicer than ~ |
| 17:18 | bitemyapp | but we'll stick with ~ for now then |
| 17:18 | bitemyapp | technomancy: thanks, reading the source answered my question, sorry to bother you :( |
| 17:19 | bitemyapp | technomancy: cheers |
| 17:19 | technomancy | no worries |
| 17:23 | `szx | is there a nicer way to do a commutative memoize than combining all the arguments into e.g. one set? |
| 17:24 | `szx | e.g. https://www.refheap.com/43097 |
| 17:24 | ordnungswidrig | technomancy: are there known issues with with-profile, clojure-version-deps and test? |
| 17:25 | amalloy | well, a set won't work at all |
| 17:25 | technomancy | ordnungswidrig: what's clojure-version-deps? |
| 17:25 | amalloy | since (add 1 1 1 1) |
| 17:25 | amalloy | you almost need like a frequency map, if you really don't care at all about parameter order |
| 17:26 | `szx | yeah, bad example - they are unique in my case |
| 17:26 | ordnungswidrig | technomancy: i try to vary the dependency on the clojure version in profiles for testing |
| 17:27 | `szx | amalloy: i guess = would be a better example than + in this case |
| 17:27 | ordnungswidrig | technomancy: like in http://technomancy.us/158 |
| 17:29 | technomancy | ordnungswidrig: I don't know of any issues around that |
| 17:30 | ordnungswidrig | technomancy: I end up with this: https://www.refheap.com/43098 |
| 17:46 | technomancy | ordnungswidrig: I don't think that has anything to do with Leiningen |
| 17:48 | ordnungswidrig | technomancy: lein test works, lein with-profile dev,1.5 test fails with the above error. |
| 17:49 | technomancy | sure |
| 17:49 | technomancy | because your code calls contains? on a lazy seq |
| 17:49 | technomancy | older versions of clojure fail silently on that |
| 17:50 | technomancy | FSVO "your" |
| 17:58 | ordnungswidrig1 | technomancy: oh dear, you're right. the default I defined is 1.4, not 1.5. thanks a lot! |
| 17:59 | technomancy | no problem |
| 18:10 | tjd | is there a builtin function f such that (f g x) == (g x)? |
| 18:11 | joegallo | like, (invoke inc 1) == (inc 1) ;; (not that invoke exists, just asking if that's what you're getting at |
| 18:11 | hyPiRion | tjd: Could you give an use case? Generally you can just remove f |
| 18:11 | amalloy | tjd: no, there isn't |
| 18:11 | seancorfield | seems like the closest thing for be apply: (apply g [x]) == (g x) |
| 18:12 | amalloy | hyPiRion: well, that function is useful in cases where you're not writing it as a literal |
| 18:12 | tjd | apply is close but not quite |
| 18:12 | joegallo | ,((fn [f & args] (apply f args)) inc 1) |
| 18:12 | tjd | since it destructures the arg |
| 18:12 | clojurebot | 2 |
| 18:12 | Bronsa | well. ##(deliver inc 1) |
| 18:12 | lazybot | ⇒ 2 |
| 18:12 | amalloy | (condp invoke x, even? :even, odd? :odd), for example |
| 18:12 | amalloy | or (map invoke list-of-thunks) |
| 18:14 | hyPiRion | Where's FUNCALL when you need it |
| 18:15 | technomancy | hyPiRion: it's hiding in clojure.core/deliver |
| 18:15 | technomancy | (for arity 1 anyway) |
| 18:16 | tjd | (deliver inc 1) oh... oh my. |
| 18:17 | hyPiRion | Well, it's a neat hack, I'll give you that |
| 18:17 | technomancy | like many things, I learned it from amalloy |
| 18:26 | dsrx | ha |
| 18:30 | TimMc | or trampoline, if you know the return value isn't a function :-P |
| 18:30 | TimMc | $findfn + 2 3 5 |
| 18:30 | lazybot | [] |
| 18:30 | TimMc | Oh come on, lazybot/ |
| 18:30 | TimMc | That's pretty lazy, even for you. |
| 18:36 | technomancy | heh |
| 18:49 | seancorfield | Bronsa: just looking at that (deliver inc 1) ... that's weird :) but the source of deliver shows why that happens... TIL: you can deliver a promise by calling it with a value! |
| 18:50 | technomancy | Welcome to Clojure, where everything[1] is a function! |
| 18:50 | technomancy | [1] - except regexes; those are dumb. |
| 18:50 | hyPiRion | it's not like picolisp though |
| 18:51 | hyPiRion | In Picolisp, (1 2 3) is like saying (defn 1 [& args] (apply list 1 args)), except more efficient |
| 18:55 | technomancy | I'm not entirely sure I *want* to understand that |
| 18:57 | hyPiRion | Oh, that came out wrongly. All numbers are functions, so (1 2 3) is the same as (list 1 2 3) |
| 18:57 | hyPiRion | they are sort-of like autoquoted |
| 18:57 | technomancy | wow |
| 18:58 | bob2 | is there some way to put part of my ~/.lein/profiles.clj in another file? I have it checked it into vc, but would like to be able to put some non-vc'd stuff in there too |
| 18:58 | Raynes | &(trampoline + 1 2 3) |
| 18:58 | lazybot | ⇒ 6 |
| 18:58 | technomancy | bob2: there is! |
| 18:58 | technomancy | hang on, I know this one... |
| 18:58 | Raynes | TimMc: Not sure why he didn't get that. Maybe his sandbox is getting stuck on trampoline for some ridiculous reason. |
| 18:59 | hyPiRion | http://software-lab.de/doc/ref.html#ev |
| 18:59 | technomancy | bob2: I think you can do ~/.lein/profiles.d/myprofile.clj |
| 18:59 | bob2 | technomancy, oh, score |
| 18:59 | hyPiRion | yup |
| 19:07 | bob2 | technomancy, hm, that appears to not be loaded |
| 19:08 | bob2 | ah, sorry |
| 19:08 | bob2 | that creates a new profile |
| 19:11 | technomancy | yeah |
| 19:12 | technomancy | you can't split up one profile |
| 19:12 | technomancy | well |
| 19:12 | bob2 | I'm not gonna make user.clj :) |
| 19:12 | technomancy | you might be able to define :user as a composite of :user/private and :user/public |
| 19:13 | technomancy | so crazy it just might work |
| 19:13 | technomancy | oh, heh |
| 19:13 | technomancy | sure, name it something else |
| 19:13 | hyPiRion | it's exactly one in a million chance |
| 19:17 | bob2 | cool, with-profile works |
| 19:17 | bob2 | thanks! |
| 19:18 | technomancy | with-profile? |
| 19:20 | bob2 | just gave up, put the creds in ~/.lein/profiles.d/mything.clj and run it with 'lein with-profile mything ring server-headless' |
| 19:23 | technomancy | oh, sure |
| 19:23 | technomancy | I thought you wanted stuff to be picked up implictly, which is harder |
| 19:25 | bob2 | I did, but it's not super important for now |
| 19:25 | technomancy | I'm curious if it works though =) |
| 19:28 | bob2 | for documenting an (ns), is it preferable to use a ^:doc annotation, or a string in the ns form? |
| 19:36 | technomancy | string, definitely |
| 19:36 | noonian | why is a string prefered? |
| 19:37 | technomancy | less punctuation |
| 19:39 | weavejester | Quick question: is it a common issue for the cljs compiler to run out of heap space? |
| 19:39 | amalloy | weavejester: i've heard about that happening fairly often with source maps; i don't know if it's still an issue |
| 19:40 | weavejester | amalloy: Hm, I'm not using a source map. |
| 19:40 | weavejester | I just wiped my target directory, and suddenly it throws a heap space error. |
| 19:41 | weavejester | https://gist.github.com/weavejester/6af8522f4bc22fc58e06 |
| 19:41 | weavejester | In case anyone's interested. |
| 19:42 | weavejester | I'm guessing that failing to compile cljs.core is not a common issue, or else it would have been noticed :) |
| 19:42 | noonian | i'd try lein cljsbuild clean if you wiped target manually and your js is being outputed somewhere else |
| 19:43 | weavejester | Shouldn't make a difference, but trying it now |
| 19:44 | weavejester | Hm, nope: https://gist.github.com/weavejester/e35240240e49c4c54b91 |
| 19:45 | weavejester | Maybe the clojurescript compiler just needs a lot of memory |
| 19:53 | amalloy | weavejester: default maximum heap size is 1GB or 1/4 of all ram, whichever is less (for oracle's jvm) |
| 19:54 | weavejester | amalloy: Free RAM or total RAM? |
| 19:54 | amalloy | total |
| 19:55 | amalloy | free would be quite poor, because of mmapped files and disk buffers/caches |
| 19:55 | weavejester | amalloy: Hm, I'm not sure that's true, then. I have 4GB of RAM, so in theory "lein cljsbuild" should have up to 1GB to play with. |
| 19:56 | weavejester | amalloy: But it dies with less than 200M |
| 19:56 | weavejester | amalloy: Same thing with a project that used, datomic, incidentally. |
| 19:56 | weavejester | amalloy: I need to manually specify -Xmx1g |
| 19:57 | amalloy | well, all i have is http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/technotes/guides/vm/gc-ergonomics.html and http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/technotes/guides/vm/server-class.html |
| 19:59 | weavejester | amalloy: Well, whatever the docs say, the version of Java 1.7 on my Macbook doesn't default to 1G! :) |
| 19:59 | hiredman | it also depends on which jvm (server/client) |
| 19:59 | weavejester | amalloy: Maybe Apple's version is changed slightly. |
| 20:00 | amalloy | hiredman: yeah, but basically no modern machines count as client for oracle's jvm |
| 20:00 | amalloy | (as noted in my secnod link) |
| 20:00 | hiredman | amalloy: on my mac I get different versions when I pass -server or not |
| 20:00 | amalloy | and is that oracle's jvm? |
| 20:00 | hiredman | oh, fuh, never mind, I mist read the string |
| 20:00 | weavejester | I believe so... |
| 20:01 | weavejester | Though I'm not sure a dual-core counts as "two CPUs" |
| 20:01 | hiredman | somehow a whole word just didn't register |
| 20:01 | weavejester | Which is needed for Java to guess that it's -server |
| 20:01 | AmnesiousFunes | Heavy users of tools.namespace: what parts/functions do you use/need the most? |
| 20:01 | hiredman | weavejester: another thing to keep in mind is if you are using lein to run stuff, lein will pass arguments to the jvm |
| 20:02 | weavejester | hiredman: Ohh, point. |
| 20:02 | technomancy | -client doesn't exist any more |
| 20:02 | hiredman | like -client |
| 20:02 | technomancy | unless you're on a 32-bit sytem |
| 20:02 | hiredman | technomancy: well, the version of lein I have installed still passes -client |
| 20:03 | hiredman | it seems to still get a server jvm, but it still passes -client |
| 20:03 | technomancy | hiredman: sorry, I mean it doesn't exist in the JVM |
| 20:03 | technomancy | it's silently ignored |
| 20:03 | weavejester | Lein seems to default to mx512M |
| 20:04 | hiredman | weavejester: you may have JVM_OPTS set in your environment |
| 20:06 | weavejester | hiredman: Nope, that environment var is empty... although, it could also be a system property? |
| 20:06 | weavejester | Yeah, curiously if I set :jvm-opts ["-server"] that doesn't work - it runs out of memory |
| 20:07 | weavejester | But :jvm-opts ["-Xmx1g"] does work |
| 20:07 | weavejester | The docs would suggest the two are synonymous for a machine with 4GB of RAM. |
| 20:07 | hiredman | weavejester: jvm-opts in project.clj don't override leins, unless you do ^:replace |
| 20:08 | weavejester | hiredman: So why does :jvm-opts ["-Xmx1g"] work? |
| 20:08 | hiredman | weavejester: because -Xmx1g doesn't have to be the first argument |
| 20:08 | weavejester | hiredman: Ahh |
| 20:11 | hyPiRion | hiredman: they've been overriding lein's default for some time, actually |
| 20:11 | hyPiRion | see technomancy/leiningen#1230 |
| 20:11 | hyPiRion | lazybot, can you please live for like more than one hour? :( |
| 20:12 | hyPiRion | https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/pull/1230 |
| 20:13 | hiredman | hyPiRion: that assumes you are running whatever the latest lein release is |
| 20:14 | hyPiRion | yeah. 2.3.0 or later |
| 20:14 | hiredman | hyPiRion: since I use lein to pin version dependencies to avoid the treadmill of constantly chasing upgrades, you can imagine my attitude towards chasing lein upgrades |
| 20:15 | weavejester | amalloy, hiredman: thanks for the suggestions, btw |
| 20:37 | taw23 | Newbie to clojure here. Can someone explain why (list a b c) gives an error about symbol resolution but '(a b c) doesn't? |
| 20:38 | dacc | taw23: the first element is evaluated as a function call unless you quote it |
| 20:38 | ambrosebs | taw23: an unquoted symbol tried to resolve itself |
| 20:38 | dacc | er, yeah that's more to the point |
| 20:39 | dacc | ,(list 'a 'b 'c) |
| 20:39 | clojurebot | (a b c) |
| 20:40 | amalloy | &(let [a 1, b 2, c 3] [(list a b c) '(a b c)]) |
| 20:40 | amalloy | ,(let [a 1, b 2, c 3] [(list a b c) '(a b c)]) |
| 20:40 | clojurebot | [(1 2 3) (a b c)] |
| 20:42 | taw23 | Not sure who I was just talking to, but that explanation doesn't make a lot of sense to me |
| 20:42 | taw23 | I'm used to a variable needing to be declared or assigned to be used at all |
| 20:43 | dacc | taw23: they aren't variables but symbols. naked ones attempt to resolve to a definition, while quoted ones can be used as regular values |
| 20:44 | TravisD | Is it cider that gives me all these nice quotes in the status bar of emacs? |
| 20:44 | hyPiRion | TravisD: yep |
| 20:44 | TravisD | cool, is there a list of them somewhere? |
| 20:44 | dacc | taw23: not sure using them as values comes up much except when passing to e.g. defn, which is a macro and so doesn't required the quoting |
| 20:45 | taw23 | dacc, eh, still thoroughly confused :-S |
| 20:45 | noonian | symbols in clojure are first class values unlike in something like java |
| 20:45 | taw23 | but what is a symbol if not a assigned to a value? |
| 20:45 | bob2 | tldr you can just not do (list a b c) or '(a b c) until you understand symbols better |
| 20:45 | dacc | taw23: heh, maybe get a good intro book. i'm working through the o'reilly one and it explains this stuff pretty well |
| 20:46 | taw23 | yeah maybe i will |
| 20:46 | noonian | so foo and bar are symbols, and the evaluation rules for symbols in clojure is to try to resolve to something they are bound to |
| 20:46 | taw23 | and quoting doesn't attempt to resolve it? |
| 20:46 | bob2 | yes |
| 20:46 | noonian | after (def a 10), a will resolve to 10 |
| 20:47 | noonian | but without defining it first, evaluating the symbol a will throw an error because it couldn't be resolved |
| 20:47 | taw23 | yeah, that much makes sense, I guess it's just that single quote notation that I find bizzare |
| 20:47 | noonian | if you quote a symbol it will evaluate to a value of type Symbol |
| 20:47 | noonian | ,(type (quote foo)) |
| 20:47 | clojurebot | clojure.lang.Symbol |
| 20:47 | bob2 | the single quote thing is an almost-universal lisp-ism |
| 20:48 | hyPiRion | bob2: it's still very strange for people unfamiliar with lisps |
| 20:48 | taw23 | if a b and c were all properly defined as numbers, '(a b c) and (list a b c) would actually have different contents? The first being the symbols themselves and the latter being their values? |
| 20:48 | hyPiRion | taw23: yes |
| 20:48 | noonian | yeah, most non-lisp languages don't have an analogous concept |
| 20:49 | taw23 | hyPiRion, ah, that makes a bit more sense then |
| 20:49 | noonian | quote quotes an entire form |
| 20:49 | bob2 | hyPiRion, right |
| 20:50 | noonian | ,(let [c 17] (quote (a b (unquote c) d))) |
| 20:50 | clojurebot | (a b (unquote c) d) |
| 20:50 | noonian | ,(let [c 17] (quote (a b ~c d))) |
| 20:50 | clojurebot | (a b (clojure.core/unquote c) d) |
| 20:50 | noonian | hmm, unquote only works in syntax quote? |
| 20:51 | turbofail` | yep |
| 20:52 | turbofail` | which is why you're able to hijack unquote for your own purposes in your own macros |
| 20:53 | right1 | i just had the weirdest lighttable bug where it was writing out "(" to a tab that wasnt in focus and everything else on my current tab... |
| 20:53 | right1 | i thought my keyboard was broken |
| 20:55 | turbofail` | ,((fn [x] (list x (list (quote quote) x))) (quote (fn [x] (list x (list (quote quote) x))))) |
| 20:55 | clojurebot | ((fn [x] (list x (list (quote quote) x))) (quote (fn [x] (list x (list (quote quote) x))))) |
| 20:56 | turbofail` | an oldie but goodie |
| 20:56 | AimHere | That's just Lisp's way of saying "Yields the source code when preceded by it's quotation" |
| 20:57 | taw23 | right1, I once almost formatted my entire computer because I for the life of me couldn't figure out where a particular bug was coming from. Turns out I had placed a book on the spacebar of an extra keyboard I had plugged in under my desk |
| 20:58 | AmnesiousFunes | right1: Any more info on that? Can you replicate the issue? |
| 20:58 | right1 | sorry, i couldn't figure out how to replicate it |
| 20:59 | AmnesiousFunes | If it happens again, feel free to ping me in #lighttable |
| 20:59 | right1 | okay |
| 20:59 | TimMc | Raynes: I figure lazybot timed out. |
| 21:15 | gfredericks | ,'~~~~~~~~~~~! |
| 21:15 | clojurebot | (clojure.core/unquote (clojure.core/unquote (clojure.core/unquote (clojure.core/unquote (clojure.core/unquote (clojure.core/unquote (clojure.core/unquote (clojure.core/unquote (clojure.core/unquote (clojure.core/unquote #)))))))))) |
| 21:16 | gfredericks | ,'~:-D |
| 21:16 | clojurebot | (clojure.core/unquote :-D) |
| 21:19 | TravisD | Is there anything particularly wrong with this definition of .. (which I'll call chain): (defmacro chain [& xs] (reduce (partial list '.) xs)) ? |
| 21:20 | TravisD | It's not exactly the same as .., since it allows for a single argument |
| 21:21 | amalloy | TravisD: that doesn't look very useful to me - it's not close to .., is it? |
| 21:21 | noonian | well, it wouldn't work with forms that take arguments right? |
| 21:21 | amalloy | &(reduce (partial list '.) '(a b c d)) |
| 21:21 | amalloy | ,(reduce (partial list '.) '(a b c d)) |
| 21:21 | clojurebot | (. (. (. a b) c) d) |
| 21:21 | amalloy | so i guess that's what noonian is saying |
| 21:22 | noonian | ,(reduce (partial list '.) '(a b (c c2 c3) d)) |
| 21:22 | clojurebot | (. (. (. a b) (c c2 c3)) d) |
| 21:22 | TravisD | Ah |
| 21:22 | amalloy | oh, funny. i guess that works, doesn't it |
| 21:23 | amalloy | noonian: that's correct syntax: (. x (c c2 c3)) is the "explicit" form of (. x c c2 c3) |
| 21:24 | TravisD | if it works, it's by accident. I thought .. was just used to access deeply nested methods |
| 21:24 | noonian | amalloy: huh, i've never seen that syntax |
| 21:24 | noonian | thanks |
| 21:24 | TravisD | parameterless methods |
| 21:24 | jarjar_p_ | hello ;-) |
| 21:24 | quizdr | if I have a map and I want to alter its values, or its keys, or both, but still have a map in the end, I'm finding I'm often using mapcat over the map, then hash-map it back together. Is this an acceptable idiom? |
| 21:24 | jarjar_p_ | Anyone have any idea why this wouldn't print anything... |
| 21:24 | jarjar_p_ | println (clojure.string/join "-" (hash-set (repeatedly 3 #(random-string 3)))) |
| 21:25 | amalloy | gross, quizdr |
| 21:25 | noonian | i think you want update-in |
| 21:25 | amalloy | into/for is better than hashmap/mapcat |
| 21:25 | noonian | ,(doc update-in) |
| 21:25 | clojurebot | "([m [k & ks] f & args]); 'Updates' a value in a nested associative structure, where ks is a sequence of keys and f is a function that will take the old value and any supplied args and return the new value, and returns a new nested structure. If any levels do not exist, hash-maps will be created." |
| 21:25 | amalloy | noonian: no, he wants to modify each key or each value |
| 21:26 | noonian | ah, yeah then for or reduce |
| 21:26 | amalloy | ,(let [m {:x 1, :y 2}] (into {} (for [[k v] m] [k (inc v)]))) |
| 21:26 | clojurebot | {:y 3, :x 2} |
| 21:26 | quizdr | thanks guys, i'll try to rearrange my habit. |
| 21:26 | quizdr | i like that amalloy |
| 21:28 | amalloy | jarjar_p_: you didn't call println, you just evaluated it for side effects |
| 21:28 | noonian | ,(let [m {:x 1, :y 2}] (reduce (fn [res [k v]] (assoc res k (inc v))) {} m)) |
| 21:28 | clojurebot | {:x 2, :y 3} |
| 21:28 | noonian | yeah, into is nicer |
| 21:28 | jarjar_p_ | amalloy: lol i'm quite a n00b |
| 21:31 | quizdr | here's the ridiculous way i was doing it: |
| 21:31 | quizdr | ,(apply hash-map (mapcat #(vector (first %) (-> % second inc)) {:a 1 :b 2})) |
| 21:31 | clojurebot | {:a 2, :b 3} |
| 21:32 | quizdr | worth noting that it is not actually much more characters long, but obviously not as easy |
| 21:39 | sandbags | I'm slightly baffled by an error I am getting "IllegalArgumentException No matching ctor found for class mces.core$__GT_pred$fn__4734 clojure.lang.Reflector.invokeConstructor (Reflector.java:163)" all the Google hits refer to Java interop, which I am not doing here. |
| 21:40 | bob2 | refheap your code |
| 21:40 | sandbags | i'm posting it, but i'm interested in what the error is actually saying |
| 21:41 | sandbags | https://gist.githubusercontent.com/mmower/d20bdf176a993476109d/raw/2eee256fceefb6a83379b4973e7e12afdec17361/gistfile1.txt |
| 21:42 | sandbags | i can post more if needed |
| 21:43 | quizdr | sandbags what is pos.x ? |
| 21:43 | sandbags | quizdr: a symbol |
| 21:44 | quizdr | do you get the error regardless of the symbol or value you pass there? |
| 21:44 | quizdr | i.e. if you just pass true or false |
| 21:44 | noto2 | try ~criteria ? |
| 21:45 | TEttinger | in the call to ->pred |
| 21:45 | TEttinger | err map ->pred |
| 21:45 | sandbags | the functions being built by ->pred work if called indepdently |
| 21:45 | quizdr | noto2 the criteria in the macro is not in syntax quotes |
| 21:45 | sandbags | quizdr: yes, because i am processing that in the macro into a different form |
| 21:46 | sandbags | TEttinger: not sure what you're asking/suggesting |
| 21:46 | sandbags | TEttinger: oh, sorry, missed your nick change |
| 21:46 | TEttinger | nvm, I really know very little about macros |
| 21:46 | quizdr | sandbags i know i was just pointing that out to noto2 |
| 21:46 | sandbags | quizdr: ah, sry, misread you |
| 21:47 | sandbags | ->pred appears to build a valid function that works, hang on a sec |
| 21:49 | quizdr | sandbags if you just enter (search world true) or false do you still get the error? |
| 21:49 | sandbags | i updated the gist |
| 21:49 | sandbags | quizdr: i'll try |
| 21:50 | sandbags | i get a different error |
| 21:50 | sandbags | that's probably because you can't map true |
| 21:51 | quizdr | what happens if you just enter pos.x at the repl, what value do you get? |
| 21:51 | sandbags | that's not going to work |
| 21:51 | sandbags | there is no symbol pos.x |
| 21:52 | TEttinger | sandbags, uhhhh link again? I think the old link is to a specific revision |
| 21:52 | quizdr | oh i gotcha. well that's a tree i won't bark up |
| 21:52 | sandbags | it's a synthetic syntax to refer to something like {:pos {<ent-id {:x }} |
| 21:52 | sandbags | TEttinger: https://gist.github.com/mmower/d20bdf176a993476109d |
| 21:53 | sandbags | it's nearly 3am so possibly i am not at my best, sorry :) |
| 21:54 | quizdr | the buddha says "He who is wise, drinks green tea. Also, he does not code for a stretch exceeding 17 consecutive hours." |
| 21:54 | sandbags | i'm still not grokking what the exception is actually saying, possibly because I'm not au fait with how clojure turns functions into classes |
| 21:55 | sandbags | i started at about 00:30 if that helps :) |
| 21:55 | quizdr | so that's nearly 27 hours then! |
| 21:55 | sandbags | well if you add it all up over the years it's probably a lot more than that |
| 21:56 | TEttinger | sandbags, hm. I wonder if it could be AOT compilation-related |
| 21:58 | sandbags | i think you just veered above my pay-grade |
| 21:59 | TEttinger | heh. then it probably isn't, if you had any gen-class stuff in your file it could be related to ahead-of-time compiled code not being up-to-date |
| 22:00 | sandbags | no, there's no Java interop at all in this stuff |
| 22:00 | TEttinger | but if you aren't doing anything with gen-class then it's a very strange error indeed |
| 22:00 | TEttinger | oh! |
| 22:00 | TEttinger | just realized something |
| 22:00 | sandbags | i'm a little puzzled by the change in NS reflected in the prompt |
| 22:00 | sandbags | not sure if that's a red-herring |
| 22:01 | sandbags | do tell |
| 22:01 | noonian | sandbags: don't you just want to call ->pred and not map it? |
| 22:01 | TEttinger | mces.core$__GT_pred$fn__4734 refers to the anonymous fn inside ->pred |
| 22:01 | sandbags | yes |
| 22:01 | sandbags | ->pred is, essentially, a function builder |
| 22:01 | sandbags | returning it wrapped in a {:component <fn>} |
| 22:01 | noonian | "c1# (->pred criteria)" instead of "c1# (map ->pred criteria)" |
| 22:02 | noonian | oh nvm |
| 22:02 | sandbags | noonian: no, there may be multiple criteria |
| 22:02 | noonian | yeah, i didn't parse the varargs |
| 22:03 | sandbags | the syntax i am replacing is (find-entities world [{:pos #(= (:x %) 1} ...]) |
| 22:03 | sandbags | so i'm translating (search world (= pos.x 1) ...) into that |
| 22:04 | TEttinger | hmmm... but your example uses '= instead of = |
| 22:05 | TEttinger | i mean I have no idea how to use macros at this point, so my advice is probably not very helpful, but have you tried evaluating this from a file with a non-"user" ns? like the one it keeps switching to, a file in the mces ns |
| 22:06 | sandbags | yes |
| 22:06 | noonian | well for one i'd remove the #'s because you're not sticking any symbols in the generated code |
| 22:08 | sandbags | noonian: fair point |
| 22:11 | sandbags | TEttinger: if you change the example to = it still works |
| 22:12 | sandbags | TEttinger: ((:pos (->pred '[= pos.x 2])) {:x 2}) => true |
| 22:12 | TEttinger | ah ok |
| 22:13 | dsrx | ,'('= =) |
| 22:13 | clojurebot | ((quote =) =) |
| 22:13 | David | oin clojurescript |
| 22:13 | David | whoops, sorry about that |
| 22:14 | sandbags | to rule out the downstream code i replaced find-entities with println and i still get the same error |
| 22:14 | sandbags | but i'm going to recycle my repl jus tin case |
| 22:15 | ambrosebs | ,(doc ==) |
| 22:15 | clojurebot | "([x] [x y] [x y & more]); Returns non-nil if nums all have the equivalent value (type-independent), otherwise false" |
| 22:16 | sandbags | yep |
| 22:16 | dsrx | (== 4.0 4) |
| 22:16 | ambrosebs | returns non-nil implies you can check success with (not (nil? %)).. |
| 22:16 | dsrx | ,(== 4.0 4) |
| 22:16 | clojurebot | true |
| 22:17 | ambrosebs | my brain |
| 22:17 | sm0ke | ,(== 4.000000000000000000000000000000000000001 4) |
| 22:17 | clojurebot | true |
| 22:18 | ambrosebs | ,(not (nil? (== 1 2)) |
| 22:18 | clojurebot | #<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading> |
| 22:18 | ambrosebs | ,(not (nil? (== 1 2))) |
| 22:18 | clojurebot | true |
| 22:18 | ambrosebs | bad doc |
| 22:18 | ambrosebs | that is all |
| 22:22 | sandbags | i've added a couple more more comments to the gist https://gist.github.com/mmower/d20bdf176a993476109d one showing the find-entities call, the other a disassembly of the anon-func |
| 22:22 | sandbags | not sure if anyone can see anything funky in the disassembled code, it's a little beyond me |
| 22:30 | TEttinger | I'm wondering why you're using flatten, actually... |
| 22:30 | TEttinger | ~flatten |
| 22:30 | clojurebot | flatten is rarely the right answer. Suppose you need to use a list as your "base type", for example. Usually you only want to flatten a single level, and in that case you're better off with concat. Or, better still, use mapcat to produce a sequence that's shaped right to begin with. |
| 22:31 | sandbags | TEttinger: actually i don't need to any more, that's a hold-over from something i was doing before |
| 22:31 | sandbags | in fact what i want is vec |
| 22:31 | TEttinger | that's a relief |
| 22:31 | TEttinger | also, mapv may be what you want |
| 22:31 | TEttinger | ,(doc mapv) |
| 22:31 | clojurebot | "([f coll] [f c1 c2] [f c1 c2 c3] [f c1 c2 c3 & ...]); Returns a vector consisting of the result of applying f to the set of first items of each coll, followed by applying f to the set of second items in each coll, until any one of the colls is exhausted. Any remaining items in other colls are ignored. Function f should accept number-of-colls arguments." |
| 22:33 | sandbags | replacing flatten with vec gives me an identical call to what i expect, modulo the issue with the anon-function |
| 22:35 | sandbags | https://gist.github.com/mmower/a7e5f6d78f1f2537a4d1 <- updated code & example runs |
| 22:36 | sandbags | i still have no idea what the IllegalAccessError: No matching ctor found for class <blah> is really saying |
| 22:37 | TEttinger | ctor is a constructor, but I have no idea why it couldn't make one for an anon fn |
| 22:37 | sandbags | sorry, yes, i understand the concept, but I've no idea what ctor it's looking for or why it wouldn't find one |
| 22:37 | sandbags | it's been an age since i looked at Java or Java byte-code |
| 22:37 | amalloy | you're calling eval on a closure |
| 22:38 | amalloy | (let [x 1, f (fn [] x)] (eval f)) |
| 22:38 | amalloy | you really shouldn't eval functions at all ever, but if they aren't closures it happens to work |
| 22:39 | sandbags | sorry where i am calling eval on a closure? I call (eval op) because op will be the symbol '= |
| 22:39 | sandbags | and i need the function = |
| 22:40 | amalloy | sandbags: (mces.core/find-entities world [{:pos #<core$__GT_pred$fn__10298 mces.core$__GT_pred$fn__10298@61dc7878>}]) is clearly not what you want to macroexpand to, because you couldn't possibly write that code yourself: it has a function object in it |
| 22:41 | sandbags | amalloy: when you say a "function object" are you talking about something other than a function? |
| 22:42 | amalloy | sandbags: #(% x) is the notation you would use, in source code, to describe a function. when the compiler *evaluates* that, it gets a function |
| 22:42 | sandbags | yes |
| 22:42 | amalloy | you can't embed a function directly into your source code, right? you need to use the notation for it |
| 22:42 | sandbags | ah, damn |
| 22:42 | sandbags | yes i see it now |
| 22:43 | sandbags | i mean i see what you're saying |
| 22:43 | amalloy | i can't figure out what you're trying to do in search and in ->pred, but the end result is evaluating something too many times |
| 22:43 | TEttinger | {(keyword component) #(op ((keyword slot) %1) value)})) ; like this? |
| 22:43 | sandbags | TEttinger: essentially yes, except op won't work |
| 22:44 | sandbags | if you look at the find-entities call you can see it's translating into |
| 22:45 | sandbags | okay so i probably want to quote the function in ->pred |
| 22:45 | amalloy | yeah, i think that's probably it |
| 22:45 | sandbags | although that leaves some trailling work to do because it's now qualifying e.g. op |
| 22:46 | sandbags | but it's 3:46am and I suspect I am not compos mentis enough to handle this ;-) |
| 22:46 | sandbags | thanks amalloy |
| 22:46 | sandbags | and TEttinger |
| 22:46 | amalloy | `#(~(eval op) (~(keyword slot) %1) ~value) probably |
| 22:47 | TEttinger | glad it's working a bit better |
| 22:47 | sandbags | amalloy: you little beauty |
| 22:47 | sandbags | yes indeed |
| 22:47 | sandbags | (search world (= pos.x 29) => #{#uuid "5306c8b0-c93d-4284-aa36-2826b62a65ec"} |
| 22:47 | TEttinger | woo! |
| 22:48 | sandbags | so a stupid idea i had about 5 hours ago becomes working code :) |
| 22:49 | sandbags | of course the next step is to rewrite the macro to handle boolean logic, that ought to be fun ... but i think i'll leave that for a clearer head |
| 22:49 | sandbags | thanks again guys |
| 22:50 | TEttinger | (inc amalloy) |
| 22:50 | TEttinger | oh is lazybot not here? |
| 22:52 | sandbags | right... to sleep, g'night |
| 22:53 | amalloy | TEttinger: he's been disconnecting a lot recently |
| 22:53 | amalloy | i'll bring him back |
| 22:54 | TEttinger | (inc amalloy) |
| 22:54 | lazybot | ⇒ 85 |
| 22:54 | amalloy | $mail Raynes if lazybot keeps crashing i'll ask lance to fire you |
| 22:54 | lazybot | Message saved. |
| 22:54 | amalloy | gotta get those priorities straight |
| 22:56 | Raynes | amalloy: lol |
| 22:56 | Raynes | |
| 22:59 | Raynes | amalloy: Lance will get right on the firing me stuff |
| 22:59 | Raynes | amalloy: Thanks for starting him, didn't notice he was down. |
| 22:59 | amalloy | twice today, mate |
| 22:59 | vladimust | is lazybot written in clojure? where's the repo, so I can read the code? |
| 22:59 | amalloy | earlier it was more dramatic: i shouted "lazybot, i summon thee!" right before he /joined |
| 23:00 | amalloy | $google clojure lazybot github |
| 23:00 | lazybot | [Raynes/lazybot · GitHub] https://github.com/Raynes/lazybot |
| 23:01 | vladimust | thanks, I've been looking for some good clojure code to read |
| 23:11 | vladimust | Can you guys recommend me any good clojure repos to read? |
| 23:14 | amalloy | haha, decided against lazybot already? |
| 23:16 | vladimust | ah no, I don't have internet at home |
| 23:16 | vladimust | so I download a whole bunch of clojure repos and resources for the week |
| 23:16 | vladimust | and read them/code at home |
| 23:17 | vladimust | all clojure and no internet makes vladimust a very slow learner |
| 23:18 | seancorfield | at least you have a REPL and the docs handy locally vladimust :) |
| 23:19 | vladimust | Yup, it's great. :) |
| 23:58 | chare | unmute me please |
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