#clojure – 2014-02-06

2014-02-06

11:48	silasdavis	Anyone have any advice for database migration/schema libraries
11:48	silasdavis	I am interested in clojure ones
11:48	silasdavis	but I am also considering using ActiveRecord from rails
11:48	silasdavis	or indeed anything else
11:48	technomancy	~clojars migrations
11:48	clojurebot	clojars migrations are just a namespace with functions: https://github.com/ato/clojars-web/blob/master/src/clojars/db/migrate.clj
11:49	Anderkent	silasdavis: do you already use a sql abstraction library?
11:49	technomancy	silasdavis: I would recommend against something big like lobos or drift
11:49	technomancy	migratus or ragtime are fine, but IMO you're better off with something like the link above
11:49	rkneufeld	Stickers! Get em while they're hot: https://twitter.com/rkneufeld/status/431468188715343872
11:50	`cbp	Does north america include mexico
11:50	`cbp	:-)
11:50	amro	aw, only NA
11:51	silasdavis	Anderkent, thinking about it, I have a high throughput front end which is largely go, I'm also looking at which abstraction library to use there. I thought clojure or rails might provide more flexible migrations and administrative manipulation of the database
11:51	joegallo	https://github.com/pjstadig/migratus
11:51	locks	does north america include portugal?
11:52	silasdavis	technomancy, could you expand on your resasoning?
11:52	locks	what's an ocean, really.
11:52	muhoo	`cbp: last i heard, north america is canada, usa, and mexico.
11:53	rkneufeld	`cbp: Yeah totally
11:54	`cbp	Usually american sites count only canada alaska and us as north america
11:54	rkneufeld	`cbp: Yeah, it's not a big grand thing, so I'll totally send you some stickers.
11:55	Anderkent	silasdavis: I can't remember exactly, and I've moved on from the project since so I can't change, but I think I've used drift before without any issues. The only thing I remember doing that was slightly uncommon was writing a defmigration macro that disabled down migrations
11:55	`cbp	=)
11:55	AimHere	What about Cuba, Jamaica, Bermuda, Barbados, Grenada and so forth? Don't they get to be North America too?
11:56	`cbp	can you send anything to cuba from the usa
11:56	technomancy	silasdavis: I feel like the code mostly speaks for itself =) it's quite short
11:56	Anderkent	silasdavis: the general approach of a migration being just a function is sound I thikn
11:56	coventry	How do you say (.-value (.getElementById js/document id)) in dommy?
11:56	technomancy	silasdavis: also, IMO down migrations usually sound like a good idea but don't actually work well in practice because they never get tested
11:57	technomancy	same with DB-agnosticism; there are too many quirks in DDL across various SQL implementations to make a DB-agnostic lib really reliable unless it has thousands of users a la activerecord
11:57	muhoo	migrations are very clean in datomic, and seem to come from a similar approach as technomancy's.
11:57	Anderkent	technomancy: silasdavis: ah, actually, I think we moved on to a similar approach later on; except we'd also ensure that the list of already executed migrations are a prefix of the list that we want
11:58	Anderkent	technomancy: silasdavis: so I guess that's another vote against drift and for a simple approach like clojars-web
11:58	rkneufeld	AimHere: I don't know about those ones (esp. Cuba). If the postage is reasonable I'd do it.
12:01	silasdavis	so going to the other extreme, would you consider just writing a schema in a sql file?
12:02	technomancy	silasdavis: definitely
12:02	technomancy	that's a great place to start; the question is how you deal with changes
12:03	silasdavis	presumably through a in-language abstraction layer or dsl
12:04	Anderkent	technomancy: silasdavis: so we had a very simple schema (two or three tables) initally, so our first migration just adds that
12:04	x^2	hey, i am a little bit confused about what a piece of code is doing
12:04	Anderkent	if you have something more sophisticated you might just write it down in a sql file and run that
12:04	x^2	could someone help me understand?
12:04	silasdavis	Ideally i'd like a declarative schema and have some library mostly sort out creating me database and dealing with tables already existing etc
12:04	Anderkent	x^2: sure, upload it somewhere and we can take a look
12:04	x^2	it's really jut a line or 2
12:04	x^2	sec
12:05	x^2	(let [[_ from priv chan cmd] (re-find #":(.)!~. (PRIVMSG) (.) :(.)" msg)]
12:05	x^2	so you don't have to explain the regex
12:05	x^2	but
12:05	x^2	is that command just basically setting each thing returned from re-find, to one of the things in the binding vector?
12:05	x^2	and if so, what is the significance of the _
12:05	Anderkent	silasdavis: the thing with declarative schemas is that you lose so much control of your database, and sooner or later you'll need a feature thats not in the dsl
12:05	teslanick	The first thing that re-find returns is the whole string, I believe.
12:05	Anderkent	x^2: _ doesn't mean anything special, but it's often use as a variable name for something that won't be used
12:06	x^2	ohhh
12:06	coventry	x^2: http://clojure.org/special_forms#Special Forms--Binding Forms (Destructuring)
12:06	x^2	that would make sense
12:06	silasdavis	x^2 it indicates the first element isn't bound
12:06	silasdavis	we don't care about it
12:06	x^2	is that just convention?
12:06	Anderkent	yes
12:06	x^2	okay
12:06	silasdavis	it's part of the destructuring language
12:06	x^2	that makes sense
12:06	x^2	and then in this part:
12:06	teslanick	You can use it multiple times, if you want to signal that you're ignoring multiple things: let [[_ _ _ a] (re-find …)]
12:07	x^2	if (not (nil? cmd))
12:07	x^2	31 (def parsed_cmd {:from from :cmd cmd :chan chan}))
12:07	x^2	ignore the 31, lol
12:07	x^2	so what that's doing
12:07	x^2	is basically just defining a hash map of the things returned previously by re-find
12:07	Anderkent	something really ugly; I hope that's not in a function or anything
12:07	hiredman	being wrong
12:07	x^2	why is it wrong?
12:07	x^2	this isn't my code btw
12:07	hiredman	defs don't go in ifs
12:07	x^2	i see
12:08	x^2	what's the better idea
12:08	x^2	to use a "let?
12:08	silasdavis	unless you want some thread-local thing conditionally but that doesn't look like this case
12:08	Anderkent	you want something to be defined once and always the same; if your def is in an if, or in a function or whatever, you can't depend on it being there
12:08	hiredman	depends on the intent
12:08	Anderkent	yeah, intent and context
12:08	hiredman	def creates a global binding of a name to a value, always
12:09	x^2	ah
12:09	x^2	the full line
12:09	Anderkent	if this is in a function, just return the map instead of defing parsed_cmd
12:09	Anderkent	x^2: it'd be easier if you posted the entire file somewher
12:09	x^2	this person actually defined parsed_cmd as the map, and then returned parsed_cmd
12:09	x^2	im not sure why they didn't do it the way you just described
12:09	x^2	1 second
12:10	Anderkent	they might have been confused :)
12:10	x^2	ill pastebin it
12:10	x^2	very small program
12:11	x^2	http://pastebin.com/NVj5L1w6
12:11	x^2	it's just a simple irc bot
12:11	x^2	found it online, was going to use it to help me learn clojure as i do work on it
12:11	x^2	since im familiar with irc protocol from other stuff i've written
12:11	hiredman	this is not written by someone who knows clojure, obviously
12:11	x^2	i see
12:12	x^2	why do you say that?
12:12	rasmusto	)\n)\n for one :p
12:12	hiredman	defs inside functions is really gross
12:12	hiredman	it is also old
12:12	silasdavis	it's trying to write procedurally
12:13	x^2	hm
12:13	hiredman	defstruct is pretty much abandoned
12:13	x^2	let me get this straight
12:13	silasdavis	the let binding could be used for intermediates
12:13	x^2	you're saying they shouldn't be using defs because instead, you could just return whatever you're setting a def to
12:13	x^2	correct?
12:13	silasdavis	and in any case they're not needed
12:13	muhoo	x^2: if you want to parse IRC logs, maybe try this http://p.hagelb.org/irc-logs.html
12:13	x^2	im actually working on making a bot
12:14	x^2	but anything parsing irc would be useful im sure
12:14	technomancy	huh, apparently that's a thing I wrote
12:14	teslanick	x^2: The reason you don't def inside a function is that the function now has side effects.
12:14	x^2	i was looking at the code for clojurebot but it seemed pretty daunting
12:14	Anderkent	technomancy: lol
12:14	x^2	ah
12:14	x^2	i see teslanick
12:14	x^2	so instead of just performing a function, it is changing something outside of itself
12:14	x^2	which is not clojurey
12:14	x^2	i think
12:14	hiredman	technomancy: hah!
12:14	teslanick	And not like… ok side effects like logging.
12:14	Anderkent	x^2: more or less right, an in particular defining a global var as a side effect is fugly
12:14	amro	side effects are ugly, clojure or not
12:15	teslanick	It has not-ok side effects like changing the name-state.
12:15	hiredman	def has side effects at compile time, it interns a var
12:15	dnolen	x^2: nested defs are just really not supported but also a great source of crazy bugs.
12:15	x^2	hmm, ok
12:15	x^2	i was reading the O'Reilly book which did warn against using defs much
12:15	dnolen	x^2: Clojure isn't Scheme
12:15	x^2	oh i know
12:16	x^2	like i said, i didn't write that code
12:16	dnolen	x^2: in Scheme define is local, in Clojure def are always top-level
12:16	x^2	im just trying to work on something in clojure that's more complex than a basic number cruncher
12:16	x^2	right
12:16	x^2	for local we would want to use "let"
12:16	x^2	i think
12:17	teslanick	Yes. If you want to define something local to a function, let is usually the way to go.
12:17	muhoo	x^2: you might want to look at the code for lazybot or clojurebot for inspiration
12:18	x^2	alright, iwas looking at the code for clojure bot for a little
12:18	x^2	it seemed really daunting
12:18	rasmusto	~let
12:18	clojurebot	let is creating a local binding in your lexical scope
12:18	x^2	because i am really new to this
12:18	hiredman	~clojurebot
12:18	clojurebot	clojurebot has a poetic soul
12:18	x^2	lol
12:18	x^2	.let
12:19	muhoo	x^2: or if you really want to get going fast, https://github.com/flatland/irclj
12:19	rasmusto	,(let [{:keys [a b c]} {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3}] [a b c])
12:19	clojurebot	[1 2 3]
12:19	x^2	oh nice
12:19	x^2	might check out this library, how it's written and then see if i can use it
12:19	teslanick	destructure the keys for god's sake!
12:20	teslanick	ytmnd
12:20	Anderkent	I always forget the [] around keys in :keys
12:20	Anderkent	makes me sad, every time
12:20	hiredman	x^2: https://gist.github.com/hiredman/27733 is an older version of clojurebot as a single file
12:20	locks	Anderkent: time for an emacs plugin
12:21	Anderkent	locks: >emacs D;
12:21	x^2	hiredman: thanks a lot, i think this is actually good
12:21	x^2	because im still a little confused by how people break up files in clojure applications
12:22	x^2	now this code uses a few "def"'s for constants like irc channel
12:22	x^2	i assume that is the case where it's actually ok
12:22	x^2	if you want it to be basically an immutable thing
12:22	rasmusto	x^2: put similar functions in a namespace that makes sense, and everything else in a namespace called "misc", thought that's probably not the only way
12:22	x^2	hmm ok
12:22	x^2	i also haven't really seen the purpose of using multiple namespaces yet
12:23	x^2	but im sure that will come with time
12:23	teslanick	hiredman: I love your docstrings.
12:23	teslanick	"just do this, I don't care"
12:23	Anderkent	I never know how to format a docstring
12:24	Anderkent	i.e. manual linebreaks? indent?
12:24	hiredman	async would be future in more modern clojure
12:24	rplaca	Anderkent: manual linebreaks yes (none of the tools add them for you)
12:25	Anderkent	rplaca: but that leaves you with the indent problem :P
12:25	Anderkent	I usually end up putting a new line after the opening quote then writing with 0 base indent
12:25	rplaca	Anderkent: do all the normal formatting manually (i,.e., indent when you have examples or whatnot)
12:25	Anderkent	also, damnit, I want triplequoted strings :(
12:26	Anderkent	rplaca: the thing is if your docstring is mutliline and indented itself, all but the first line will get indent that you don't want
12:26	rplaca	indent following lines to the original if you like it or leave it on the left margin
12:26	rplaca	yeah, I know
12:26	rasmusto	,(str "" "foo" "")
12:26	clojurebot	"foo"
12:26	rplaca	in autodoc I compensate for that by removong the constant indent on following lines
12:26	rasmusto	there's your triple quotes :p
12:26	Anderkent	rasmusto: try that for a docstring :)
12:27	rplaca	I keep meaning to submit a patch for the doc function to do the same
12:27	Anderkent	#=(str "" "foo" "") :D
12:27	technomancy	,«let's add "literal" strings»
12:27	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: �let's in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
12:27	rasmusto	true, I guess it wouldn't work in ^:doc either
12:27	technomancy	boooo
12:27	rplaca	Anderkent: I really wanted """ yesterday when I was putting a whole python program inline in my clojure program
12:27	Anderkent	technomancy: so each raw string takes a manually input unicode char?
12:27	Anderkent	:P
12:28	hyPiRion	,'[«let's add "literal" strings»] ; ?
12:28	clojurebot	[�let's add "literal" strings�]
12:28	Anderkent	rplaca: I really really want """ because I'm writing a doctest library but kinda can't get arsed to finish it because without """ it's pretty much useless
12:28	technomancy	Anderkent: C-x 8 <; not that much more than three "s
12:28	hyPiRion	,(apply str '[«let's add "literal" strings»])
12:28	clojurebot	"�let'saddliteralstrings�"
12:28	technomancy	plus it's easier to match open/closed with paredit =)
12:28	hyPiRion	whoops.
12:28	Anderkent	technomancy: editor specific solutions are not solutions
12:28	technomancy	Anderkent: it's the 21st century; editors need to get with the times =)
12:29	rplaca	Anderkent: probably you need to come to terms with that yourself. It seems very unlikely that you're going to get """
12:29	rplaca	:)
12:29	Anderkent	: (
12:30	Anderkent	is that because people actively don't want """, or some other reason?
12:30	rasmusto	when I need literal strings I just slam everything over to the left
12:30	Anderkent	(I guess it'd be backward incompatible, but meh)
12:30	technomancy	Anderkent: probably just because it's very difficult to convince rich of any change
12:30	Anderkent	:( fork it! :P
12:30	rplaca	Anderkent: +1 technomancy
12:30	rasmusto	"lojure
12:30	hiredman	te
12:31	technomancy	lava is a pretty good name
12:31	Anderkent	or surely you could release it as a library? just hook into the reader and swap contents of """
12:31	rasmusto	reader macro? doesn't that require a fork too?
12:32	rplaca	Clojure doesn't support hooking into the reader that way. At least not now
12:32	hiredman	technomancy: I think it is because most literal string proposals to date would make the reader not LL(1)
12:32	Anderkent	rasmusto: just redefine clojure.core/load-lib :P
12:32	technomancy	Anderkent: technically possible, but not in a way that wouldn't make your stomach churn
12:32	x^2	thank yall again for the help, this seems like a friendly community. going to hang around here a bit.
12:32	rplaca	Rich has been concerned that having multiple reader syntaxes would harm code compatibility
12:32	Anderkent	or, can you replace methods by reflection in java?
12:32	Anderkent	:P
12:32	rplaca	x^2: thanks for stopping by
12:32	x^2	:)
12:32	rasmusto	,(let [f (fn [x] (* x x))] (f 2))
12:32	clojurebot	4
12:33	technomancy	Anderkent: the reason clojure doesn't have reader macros is that they have composability issues in CL
12:33	technomancy	what you're describing is a giant composability issue =)
12:33	locks	I've only been here a while, but every other day I see """ mentioned
12:33	Anderkent	I wasn't serious for a while now :P
12:33	technomancy	hiredman: huh; shows how much attention I've been paying
12:33	Anderkent	locks: because it's so good :(
12:33	rplaca	:)
12:33	technomancy	Anderkent: neither was my «» fwiw
12:33	locks	Anderkent: what does it do?
12:34	Anderkent	locks: let you type stuff in your string without having to escape "! :X
12:34	locks	so, literal strings?
12:34	Anderkent	not quite, just an alternative terminator.
12:35	rplaca	actually the nice thing about my python program is that I could just convert all my " to ' and it went into a Clojure string just fine
12:35	locks	hm
12:35	Anderkent	rplaca: so you don't have any ' in your python " stirngs?
12:35	rplaca	(thoug I still needed to double up some \s in regexps)
12:35	Anderkent	:P
12:35	rplaca	Anderkent: not in that program, no
12:36	aconbere	I feel kind of dumb but I'm trying to find documentation on clojure (not sure what to call them) 'type annotations' like you see here `(defn read-chunks [^java.nio.ByteBuffer record]...)`
12:36	rplaca	someone decided that the correct data encoding for some data I needed was actual executable python
12:36	aconbere	what are those ^ things called?
12:36	Anderkent	aconbere: caret?
12:36	Bronsa	aconbere: type hints
12:36	rplaca	so I had to use python to exec it and spit out CSV that I could read in Clojure
12:36	aconbere	Bronsa: thanks :)
12:37	Anderkent	ah. not reading back strikes again
12:40	rhg135	rplaca: I'm so sorry
12:47	rplaca	rhg135: :) one of the little travails of living in the real world
12:48	rhg135	Edn ftw
12:48	rplaca	at least I didn't have to write my whole solution in python
12:49	rplaca	actually here CSV or JSON would be excellent formats
12:49	rhg135	Hmm
12:49	rplaca	I don't need to sell the non-CLojure world on edn and the data itself is super simple
12:49	rplaca	just a buch of node and roles in test runs for a distributed DB
12:49	rplaca	*bunch
12:50	rhg135	Whomever gave you the python was a sadist
12:50	rasmusto	at least python has list slicing notation
12:50	rplaca	no, just didn't understand the implications of what he was doing
12:50	Anderkent	tbh I end up using csv quite often - the fact that you can just append lines to file without having to worry about collection terminators etc is convenient
12:51	rplaca	Anderkent: agreed. when you're data is fundamentally tabular it's my favorite
12:51	rasmusto	tell me that abc[-1:-3:-1][::-1] isn't easy to understand
12:51	rplaca	cause you can read and write it everywhere
12:51	rplaca	rasmusto: :)
12:51	AimHere	I quite like spitting out JSON from clojure with a multimethod. If I can find an excuse to do that, I will ;)
12:52	rhg135	rasmusto: it burns
12:52	rplaca	AimHere: hah. In this case my little python program is doing that on it's side so it can parse the python format but also some CSV I create to describe systems and the JSON that I hope they'll adopt
12:53	rasmusto	yeah, that was too confusing so I wrote this instead: abc[::-1][::-1][0:8][::-1]
12:53	mdeboard	edn -> graphviz pls
12:53	rplaca	but it uses multiple if statements :)
12:53	rhg135	Uh
12:53	rasmusto	mdeboard: did you try out the code in that gist I posted?
12:53	mdeboard	rasmusto: Negative
12:53	rplaca	mdeboard: shouldn't be too hard to write
12:54	rasmusto	random graphs and clustering of the alphabet
12:54	rasmusto	sometimes it takes quite a while to render
12:55	rhg135	rasmusto: any reason you're reversing a list twice?
12:55	rasmusto	rplaca: see https://github.com/ztellman/rhizome
12:55	rasmusto	rhg135: it's actually for clarity's sake
12:55	rasmusto	as backwards as it sounds
12:55	rhg135	Really?
12:55	Anderkent	rasmusto: well, that's not really very clear :)
12:55	rasmusto	it would if you knew the context
12:55	rasmusto	would be*
12:56	rhg135	It confused me
12:56	rasmusto	well, abc is lsb first, so I need to reverse it, then I want to index it without using negative numbers, so I reverse it, then index it, then reverse it again
12:56	rasmusto	there's the clarity
12:57	rhg135	Hmm
12:57	riz_	can someone explain what the big deal about Monads is?
12:57	rhg135	Working with bytes is so uncouth in 2014 lol
12:57	riz_	i come from an imperative/OOP background
12:58	rplaca	rasmusto: ahh, cool. I hadn't seen that Zach had done that
12:58	Anderkent	riz_: they're a general way of threading state though your functional code
12:58	rhg135	riz_: more composition
12:58	technomancy	"No one can explain what a Monad is. you have to see it for yourself."
12:59	rasmusto	,(take 2 (reverse (reverse "010011")))
12:59	clojurebot	(\0 \1)
12:59	riz_	more composition?
12:59	rasmusto	okay nvm, it's really unclear, especially in clojure
13:00	rasmusto	rhg135: bits, bytes are too coarse-grained
13:00	llasram	riz_: Are you familiar with function composition, such as via the Clojure `comp` function?
13:00	rplaca	technomancy: that's why there are so many tutorials on monads!
13:00	rhg135	Imagine two functions returning a pair
13:00	riz_	yes
13:00	rhg135	But taking one arg
13:01	rhg135	How do you compose them?
13:01	llasram	riz_: Monads are essentially a type-based way of describing patterns around function composition
13:01	technomancy	rplaca: no, that's because of a secret condition in GHC's license that says you have to blog about monads within 3 months of starting to use GHC
13:01	rasmusto	rplaca: the random graphs I was talking about https://gist.github.com/rasmusto/8807304
13:01	rhg135	technomancy: I didn't
13:01	Anderkent	technomancy: ... that explains so much
13:01	rhg135	I broke the license
13:02	technomancy	~guards
13:02	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
13:02	llasram	hehe
13:02	rasmusto	~monad
13:02	clojurebot	monad is #=(str "super" "awesome")
13:02	rhg135	Lol
13:04	rhg135	I use them for mostly state and error handling
13:04	hyPiRion	llasram: that was actually a good way of describing monads.
13:05	rhg135	Oh and that promise monad I wrote
13:13	llasram	hyPiRion: Well you don't need to act so surprised!
13:15	riz_	TIL, c# LINQ uses Monadic principles!
13:15	riz_	i'm still finding them hard to grasp, currently, but now I know that I've been using them all along!
13:16	rplaca	rasmusto: ahh, there's something to play with today!
13:16	rplaca	technomancy: man, I'm in violation of that clause by many years I'm afraid :)
13:20	llasram	I need to dig through the clojure-user archives... khissen has this awesome post that was basically "Well, Clojure now has separate partial implementation of three different monads. Maybe it should be a core abstraction?"
13:20	llasram	er, khinsen, and that's IIRC
13:24	bbloom	llasram: which 3 monads?
13:24	technomancy	list, future, and STM?
13:24	llasram	bbloom: sequence, ... Er. Man, now I really need to find it
13:24	llasram	Oh, that sounds like a good guess
13:25	technomancy	uneducated guess
13:25	Anderkent	no guess is uneducated!
13:26	bbloom	frankly, i'm not convinced that there is value to reifying monads in core, since each concrete monad has unique syntax considerations and extra non-monadic operators
13:26	bbloom	if you're going to reify an abstraction, you need to get something from it
13:26	bbloom	in haskell, you get two things: 1) do syntax and 2) monad-level abstract operations
13:26	technomancy	inc
13:27	bbloom	frankly, we don't strictly need #1, since i'd rather per-monad syntax (we have for, some->, etc)... but this ties in to #2
13:27	bbloom	#2 is annoying
13:27	technomancy	the STM has way more in common with other IDerefs than seqs; that's an actually-practical abstraction
13:27	bbloom	operating on abstract monads is kinda useless for pretty much everything but a compiler
13:28	bbloom	and even that relies on details of the concrete monad isntantiated for maximum benefit!
13:28	bbloom	instantiated*
13:30	bbloom	maybe it's b/c i'm not a haskell programmer, but i look at http://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.6.0.1/docs/Control-Monad.html and don't see anything i'd really ever want to use that we don't already have in clojure.core in one form or another
13:31	bbloom	stuff like filterM isn't necessary with dynamic typing: you can just filter a list of pairs
13:31	bbloom	lifting is a pain in the ass
13:31	bbloom	worst of all, all this stuff obscures the data. monadic chains are opaque
13:31	bbloom	i much rather a flattened lazy seq of operations and reduce over that eagerly. so much nicer b/c you can debug it interactively
13:31	hiredman	(see compojure routes)
13:31	bbloom	shrug monads :-P
13:32	rkneufeld	Can anyone offer any opinions on what the state of the art is for building quick CRUD services in Clojure is? Does Liberator serve this purpose?
13:33	llasram	Ok, I can't seem to find the post I mentioned, and am giving up before I waste excessive time on it.
13:33	llasram	It may be a memory implanted by the government, to discredit me
13:33	bbloom	rkneufeld: my impression from the talk on liberator was that it's the industrial strength http API design toolkit thinggie. i dunno if it has a more rails-like brain dead crud/rest/resource wrapper thinggie too
13:33	rasmusto	llasram: a monad of the state, if you will
13:34	hiredman	a liebnizian monad of the state
13:35	rhg135	Dat paranoid
13:36	llasram	See -- their plan is working
13:36	rhg135	Ic
13:37	rhg135	I don't trust you anymore :P
13:54	mdrogalis	dnolen & tbaldridge: What's the difference between a coroutine and what core.async provides? I'm not familiar with the former.
13:54	dnolen	mdrogalis: coroutine is something the language runtime itself must support
13:55	mdrogalis	dnolen: Hm.
13:56	tbaldridge	mdrogalis: coroutines are basically co-operative multitasking. Like threads, but other threads only run when you call (yield) or (yield other-thread)
13:58	muhoo	technomancy: in clojars migrate.clj, why are you passing the vars of the migration functions to the migrate function, instead of just passing the function? i.e. why (migrate #'foo) not (migrate foo) ?
13:58	technomancy	muhoo: the function doesn't know its own name
13:58	technomancy	so you can't record the fact that it ran in the migrations table
13:59	muhoo	ah, cool
13:59	technomancy	which is kind of silly
13:59	technomancy	but that's the way it is
13:59	muhoo	there's no args[0] as in c
13:59	muhoo	clever solution tho
13:59	mdrogalis	tbaldridge: Ah, I see.
13:59	technomancy	more just that defn doesn't copy the var metadata onto the function object itself
14:00	alandipert	mdrogalis: check out ftp://www.cs.indiana.edu/pub/techreports/TR158.pdf section 3 - coroutine =~ continuation
14:00	technomancy	for historical reasons
14:00	mdrogalis	tbaldridge: Would it be correct to say you can use core.async in that manner?
14:00	mdrogalis	Thanks alandipert. Reading.
14:00	tbaldridge	mdrogalis: maybe? I think it's possible, but I haven't tried yet.
14:01	tbaldridge	a bunch of gos all waiting on one channel might work. still it'd be a bit of a hack.
14:01	mdrogalis	Yeah
14:02	dakrone	if anyone here has a project that heavily uses clj-http, please try out the 0.9.0-SNAPSHOT as it has some drastic changes in the way headers are represented internally
14:03	muhoo	dakrone: i do. what broke? :-/
14:03	dakrone	muhoo: nothing should be broken, but you should be able to retrieve headers in a case-insensitive manner now
14:04	dakrone	muhoo: clojure 1.2.1 and 1.3 support was dropped also
14:04	dakrone	but that's why it's a snapshot, so if it actually breaks things, we can fix it before it's released :)
14:04	technomancy	dakrone: curious, known breakage or just "no longer tested"?
14:04	technomancy	with 1.2/1.3
14:05	dakrone	technomancy: known breakage (:use -> :require, docstrings for defs, type hinting syntax)
14:05	technomancy	cool
14:06	hfaafb	is there a cool way to access items in a multidimensional array
14:06	muhoo	dakrone: great, thanks.
14:06	dakrone	muhoo: please do let me know if anything breaks (nothing should) :)
14:06	joegallo	hfaafb: one a skateboard while listening to "Go Ninja Go" from the TMNT soundtrack
14:06	joegallo	s/one/on/
14:06	joegallo	i think if you'd do it that way, it would be pretty cool
14:06	technomancy	(inc joegallo)
14:06	lazybot	⇒ 3
14:08	hfaafb	i cant even skateboard
14:08	hfaafb	should i just learn haskell
14:08	technomancy	only if there's a skateboard monad
14:08	muhoo	joegallo: on irc while on a skateboard?
14:08	`cbp	hfaafb: if it's a java array use aget
14:08	muhoo	how is that even possible
14:08	hfaafb	its a clojure vector
14:09	`cbp	get-in
14:10	S11001001	hfaafb: how about some https://github.com/mikera/core.matrix#corematrix
14:10	teslanick	,(get-in [[,,,]["hello" "world"][,,,][,,,]] [1 1])
14:10	clojurebot	"world"
14:10	hfaafb	thanks
14:10	hfaafb	you guys are pretty cool
14:11	teslanick	(pretty chuffed about that use of commas as whitespace)
14:11	`cbp	~haskell
14:11	clojurebot	"you have to see features like that in the context of Haskell's community, which is something like Perl's community in the garden of Eden: detached from all shame or need to do any work." -- ayrnieu
14:12	alandipert	,((fn [v [x y]] (get v (+ (* x 2) y))) [1 2, 3 4] [0 1]) ; for a flat vector posing as a multidimensional one
14:12	clojurebot	2
14:41	sritchie_	cemerick: hey man, are you around?
14:41	sritchie_	I've got an austin setup that just… stopped working.
14:41	sritchie_	cemerick: I'm running the "connect" call in the browser (I've run it a couple of times in the console)
14:41	sritchie_	cemerick: but I have no visibility into whether the connection's failed, etc
14:41	sritchie_	no errors, nothing
14:42	cemerick	sritchie_: umm
14:42	cemerick	Not sure what to say about that.
14:42	cemerick	something changed
14:42	sritchie_	like, my first command at the repl in emacs (* 2 2) just hangs, as if it's waiting for a connection
14:42	sritchie_	cemerick: okay, fair :)
14:42	sritchie_	cemerick: the Q stands… any way to diagnose whether or not the connect call on the browser actually went through?
14:43	sritchie_	the whole thing is fragile enough that I worry about whether I'm even using it correctly.
14:43	sritchie_	cemerick: stackoverflow happens sometimes if I disconnect with :cljs/quit and try to reset the browser repl atom,
14:43	seangrove	sritchie_: Same issue, constantly and constantly
14:43	cemerick	sritchie_: look for a series of 3-4 requests right when the session starts in e.g. the network panel in chrome
14:43	sritchie_	cemerick: oh, jesus, there it goes
14:44	sritchie_	just connected after like a minute
14:44	muhoo	,(get '(1 2 3) 1)
14:44	clojurebot	nil
14:44	muhoo	,(get (vec '(1 2 3)) 1)
14:44	clojurebot	2
14:44	muhoo	WHY?
14:44	seangrove	"cljs repl hangs", "hard refresh page", "still hung, C-b" "hard refresh", "try command again in cljs repl, hung", "hard refresh", "works!"
14:44	sritchie_	exactly
14:44	llasram	muhoo: Because lists don't provide constant-time indexed access?
14:45	sritchie_	cemerick: do you have that experience that seangrove is mentioning?
14:45	sritchie_	or is there some better way to set up the tools than injecting that script inside of your html and having the app connect back to the repl
14:45	cemerick	I don't, no.
14:45	muhoo	llasram: but, nil is surprising. throwing an exeption "you can't use get on a list" would be more helpful
14:45	seangrove	cemerick: Really? It's constantly happening to everyone I introduce cljs to
14:45	sritchie_	yeah, every single dev environment I've touched is extremely finicky
14:45	cemerick	sritchie_: that's sort of the entire premise of the browser-REPL :-P
14:45	llasram	muhoo: (get 'zoom 'what 'foo)
14:46	seangrove	cemerick: Although Austin is fantastic, please don't misinterpret my moaning ;)
14:46	llasram	muhoo: Er, ##(get 'zoom 'what 'foo)
14:46	lazybot	⇒ foo
14:46	sritchie_	cemerick: yeah, I get that, which is why the experience is so confusing
14:46	sritchie_	like, the whole stackoverflow issue when you disconnect
14:46	sritchie_	yeah, it's great to have Austin, for sure
14:46	cemerick	seangrove: well, if I could get my hands on legitimately not-working environment, I'd do what I can. I've paved over all the rough spots I've ever hit. shrug
14:46	sritchie_	cemerick: we can Screenhero sometime if you like
14:46	seangrove	cemerick: I understand
14:47	sritchie_	hell, I can give you access to our PaddleGuru source if you want
14:47	seangrove	cemerick: I can repro it in a certain case though
14:47	sritchie_	cemerick: and you can try to run the browser repl
14:47	seangrove	cemerick: Hopefully I can find time for a minimum repro case
14:47	muhoo	llasram: hum. well. that's a sharp edge i guess i'll just have to watch out for. if i pass a list into a function that's expecting a vector, or if i try to do get-in on a nested structure and some part of it will be a list, i'll get a silent nill failure
14:47	sritchie_	seangrove: that'd be awesome
14:47	sritchie_	cemerick: any insight into that issue of clojure.tools.reader compilation failing when Austin's on the classpath?
14:47	seangrove	sritchie_: Maybe. Specifically if I try/catch at a certain point the repl never actually connects
14:47	cemerick	sritchie_: I have to draw the line at OSS contributions short of doing remote support skypes, etc. ;-P
14:48	cemerick	sritchie_: sorry, link?
14:49	sritchie_	https://github.com/cemerick/austin/issues/37, https://github.com/cemerick/austin/issues/23
14:49	sritchie_	cemerick: sure, I write a bunch of open source too, I get it...
14:49	technomancy	muhoo: silent nil failures are the Clojure Way =\
14:49	sritchie_	I wasn't trying to ask for extra work, just offering a debugging environment for what seems like a fairly major issue in the library
14:50	muhoo	technomancy: not always, and i have many multiple-page-long stacktraces to prove it
14:50	sritchie_	cemerick: not so you can debug my stuff, you just mentioned getting your hands on a busted environment
14:51	stuartsierra	muhoo: I've filed issues on some of these; http://stuartsierra.com/2013/02/04/affordance-concision
14:51	cemerick	sritchie_: right, that; I hadn't associated it specifically with tools.reader. No, I haven't looked into that yet in detail.
14:51	cemerick	very happy for some help with it, tho
14:51	technomancy	muhoo: silently returning nil and failing in an unrelated part of the codebase, rather
14:52	cemerick	sritchie_: Yeah, I appreciate the offer. Maybe I'll take you up on it at some point, but I'm extremely focused lately / now / hopefully as long as possible, etc.
14:53	sritchie_	yeah, for sure, the stuff you're putting out is awesome
15:07	muhoo	stuartsierra: thanks, that's a nice exposition on the topic.
15:09	stuartsierra	muhoo: you're welcome
15:25	Anderkent	were all bots dead on 3rd Feb? Trying to find the logs online :P
15:25	hiredman	freenode fell appart
15:25	Anderkent	hm, then that's probably not the day I'm looking for
15:25	TimMc	We could do a merge on people's logs...
15:26	Anderkent	damnit, i think it is the day I was looking for ;_;
15:26	hiredman	actually, most of the freenode issues were the 2nd and the 3rd for me, but maybe utc that would have been the 3rd and the 4th
15:26	Anderkent	logs for the 4th also seem very short for everyone?
15:26	Anderkent	eh.
15:28	TimMc	Anderkent: Whatcha looking for?
15:28	Anderkent	someone was helping me on tuesday, I think, with a No matching ctor found for class clojure.lang.AFunction$1 error
15:28	gfredericks	oh well use the matching constructor instead
15:28	Anderkent	and I just wanted to tell them they were half right, and damn I don't think I can fix it
15:29	Anderkent	;_;
15:30	Anderkent	eh no, goddamnit, I still don't get why it's breaking only in this particular case
15:31	doody1	what are some good references on clojurescript?
15:31	Anderkent	Anyone know where function pre/post conditions are built?
15:32	Anderkent	ah, in fn
15:32	clojurebot	Huh?
15:33	TimMc	Anderkent: Well, I can give you my logs for the last week or whatever.
15:33	Anderkent	nah, it's cool
15:33	Anderkent	not really important
15:34	TimMc	(Lines elapsed since start of Feb 3: 4000. Not actually that many.)
15:34	stuartsierra	clojurebot: classes?
15:34	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
15:35	Anderkent	oh shit, I get why it's broken
15:35	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
15:35	Anderkent	precondition is literally included in the metadata of a fn
15:35	Anderkent	and my literal representation includes a function object
15:36	stuartsierra	I can never find that diagram of Clojure's classes/interfaces when I want it.
15:36	Anderkent	which it cant put in code. Gah.
15:39	TimMc	stuartsierra: Well, if you find it again, I'd be curious to see it.
15:41	gfredericks	does the leiningen dependency list get turned into a classpath in leiningen's code or maven code or somewhere else?
15:42	rhg135	stuartsierra, if you find it add it clojurebot
15:47	arrdem	clojurewiki too...
15:49	stuartsierra	http://n01se.net/paste/fZQ
15:49	stuartsierra	PNG here: http://n01se.net/paste/HTx
15:50	stuartsierra	SVG here: http://n01se.net/paste/fZQ?pretty=no
15:50	Anderkent	stuartsierra: how did you choose the colours?
15:51	stuartsierra	I didn't.
15:51	Anderkent	:D
15:51	stuartsierra	It's from https://groups.google.com/d/msg/clojure/H42kG6_aKms/gYyJoD7UUe8J
15:51	stuartsierra	Chouser made it.
15:51	arrdem	(inc chouser)
15:51	lazybot	⇒ 15
15:51	bmath	(+ 3 4)
15:51	clojurebot	suffusion of yellow
15:56	gfredericks	is there any succinct summary of what situations require `lein clean` to avoid having wrong dependencies?
15:57	Tolstoy	Is there any way to get tools.logging to use a logger name other than the namespace?
15:58	hiredman	gfredericks: it should never be required for dependenxies in lein 2, but can be required to clear out stale aot'ed stuff
15:58	gfredericks	hiredman: which might include dependencies?
15:59	stuartsierra	clojurebot: class chart is https://groups.google.com/d/topic/clojure/H42kG6_aKms/discussion
15:59	hiredman	yes, AOT is transitive'
15:59	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
15:59	stuartsierra	clojurebot: class chart ?
15:59	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
15:59	stuartsierra	Bah.
15:59	hiredman	clojurebot: class chart?
15:59	clojurebot	class chart is https://groups.google.com/d/topic/clojure/H42kG6_aKms/discussion
15:59	hiredman	clojurebot: class chart
15:59	clojurebot	class chart is https://groups.google.com/d/topic/clojure/H42kG6_aKms/discussion
16:01	Tolstoy	Looks like there's no way to do it.
16:04	Anderkent	That feeling when you can't remember why you're doing something, but it's breaking stuff, and removing it stops the breakage, so you remove it #bugfixed
16:05	Tolstoy	Is there a way to create a namespace "on the flow" to bind to ns temporarily?
16:07	hiredman	Tolstoy: yes, but don't
16:07	hiredman	the cases where you would need that are vanishingly small
16:08	Tolstoy	I just want to be able to log to subject matter with tools.logging rather than namespaces.
16:08	hiredman	Tolstoy: just don't uses tools.logging then
16:08	Tolstoy	So it's not possible with that tool. Okay.
16:09	hiredman	or use the lower level functions it exposes (which I dunno, they may let you do whatever)
16:09	Tolstoy	Yeah, I looked at those. They pay attention to ns so thought maybe I could override that for the one case I need it.
16:09	stuartsierra	tools.logging just wraps Java logging APIs, all of which let you create a Logger object with an arbitrary name.
16:10	shriphani	hi. is it possible to do pass in extra arguments with lein ring server ? I can't see a way to do it and my google-fu is failing me.
16:10	Tolstoy	stuartsierra: I'm not seeing that, though. The logger they seem to want is a logger factory. I'll check again, though.
16:10	paulswilliamsesq	Hiya - can someone please advise what the benefits of using :require are without aliases, when you can use fully qualified references to functions outside of the current namespace? #not_trolling ;-)
16:10	stuartsierra	Tolstoy: Just use the Java API for your logging library.
16:12	stuartsierra	paulswilliamsesq: Just referring to a function in another namespace does not load that namespace.
16:12	Tolstoy	stuartsierra: Heh. That'll work. ;)
16:12	hiredman	paulswilliamsesq: you can't, though, unless something else has already loaded the code
16:12	hiredman	require loads the code, refering to a function with a full qualified name will not
16:14	paulswilliamsesq	stuartsierra: hiredman: does this rule include functions within clojure ns like clojure.set/intersection? I seem to be able to call it using fully qualified name without explicit requires. Could it be lein that autoloads clojure.* namespaces?
16:15	hiredman	the clojure runtime loads clojure.core and a few others
16:15	hiredman	the ns macro automatically requires clojure.core
16:16	stuartsierra	In general you cannot rely on anything being loaded besides clojure.core.
16:16	hiredman	correct
16:16	hiredman	the set of namespaces that the runtime loads besides clojure.core has changed overtime
16:16	paulswilliamsesq	hiredman: gotcha, just going through joy of clojure, which uses invocations of clojure.set/intersection as an example of when to use require, and being devious, I tried without the require and was suprised to see it work!
16:17	hiredman	clojure.set is a namespace where this changed, it used to be automatically loaded, then wasn't
16:18	paulswilliamsesq	hiredman: and now is again?
16:18	technomancy	it used to be loaded by clojure.main
16:18	hiredman	could be
16:18	technomancy	now clojure.main got disj'd from the set of things that load clojure.set
16:19	hiredman	paulswilliamsesq: if you are at a repl, and ran a require, it loaded it, and it will stay loaded
16:19	Anderkent	#reassuring-commit-messages: https://github.com/JacekLach/cloverage/commit/69fa5556e4cfe9ac884d7c6f2dffb66c976a462b
16:20	paulswilliamsesq	hiredman: not running in a repl, running in a testing ns tested through lein-autoexpect
16:20	hiredman	Anderkent: 90% of testing and code coverage frameworks for clojure are written by people who never seem to know what they are doing
16:20	Anderkent	hiredman: that's me :(
16:21	hiredman	which I sort of imagine why code coverage and tests apeal
16:21	hiredman	paulswilliamsesq: autoexpect most likely isn't cleanly testing things, e.g. it is using the same jvm with whatever accumalted state for multiple test runs
16:22	hiredman	Anderkent: would you say you know what you are doing with clojure then?
16:22	Anderkent	hiredman: Yeah, I'd think so. This is more of a case 'I don't have time to track it down right now' than a 'I don't understand the language I'm using'
16:23	paulswilliamsesq	hiredman: ok, I've been using it in a similar style to koans.
16:24	paulswilliamsesq	hiredman: I've previously found tdd a good way of learning and recording facts about languages / libraries etc.
16:24	hiredman	Anderkent: as whoever was trying to tell you, you are emitting a function object from a macro instead of a data structure that when evaluated is a function object
16:24	Anderkent	hiredman: that's me. on both sides.
16:25	hiredman	,(let [a '(fn [x] x) b (fn [x] x)] [a b])
16:25	clojurebot	[(fn [x] x) #<sandbox$eval25$b__26 sandbox$eval25$b__26@183da96>]
16:25	Anderkent	hiredman: and tbh the function object is only emitted as an argument to the macro itself - it should never show up in macroexpanded code
16:25	hiredman	the reason you only see it once you try to tag the function object with metadata is a little esoteric, but basically it is because metadata on function objects is a bad hack
16:25	Anderkent	(which is the part I don't understand - apparently somewhere it does, and it has something to do with fn preconditions)
16:26	Anderkent	hiredman: oh?
16:26	hiredman	yes
16:27	Anderkent	care to elaborate? (or point me at a relevant resource)
16:28	hiredman	Anderkent: well, given a function, what would you do to create a new version of that function with metadata attached?
16:28	hiredman	if you were writing it?
16:28	agocs_work	Here's a dumb question: I'm running a SpeClj test. In the describe block, I have "(with-all env (.toString (UUID/randomUUID)))". When I go to use the env variable inside an (it) block, I need to use the @ decorator before env. Why is that? I feel like I don't fully understand what @ is doing.
16:29	hiredman	you can't have some mutable field, because fns are values, not references, so you need to be able to return a "new" value with the metadata without effecting the old value
16:29	Anderkent	hiredman: right, so it delegates?
16:30	hiredman	anyway, just think it through, come up with some designs and tradeoffs for those designs, I have to go back to work
16:31	hiredman	and follow it all the way through, given an abitrary object, and clojure compiels to bytecode, so for compilation you have to embed that object in the jvm bytecode somehow
16:37	Anderkent	hiredman: but that's my point, the function object should never be embedded into actual code - it's only ever passed around as an arg to a macro, or called from that macro
16:37	gfredericks	is there a lein plugin for sticking all the project data on the classpath in some manner?
16:38	hiredman	Anderkent: evidently that is not the case
16:38	technomancy	gfredericks: check out configleaf
16:40	Anderkent	well, duh. also, not very helpful. But yeah, I figure now it kinda works-by-accident since non-metadataed function objects are embeddable; I guess I really should track it down since this doesn't seem like a sane thing to rely on
16:45	gfredericks	technomancy: yo thx man u da bomb
16:46	Raynes	he is da bomb
16:48	scape_	when using core.async go blocks, I noticed using a loop within them will hog the pool-- even if the loops are basic and non-blocking; is it not advised to spin up many go blocks with loops? I could do this in reverse and have one loop which constantly spins up go blocks-- but then why is go-loop even a macro?
16:48	technomancy	"No mom, things aren't the bomb any more. Only bombs are the bomb."
16:51	stuartsierra	scape_: go blocks run on a fixed-size thread pool right now. If most of them are "parked" most of the time it's not a problem. But if they are all doing work they fill up that thread pool.
16:53	scape_	stuartsierra: they're each checking if an inputstream has data available. what constitutes parked in a loop?
16:53	stuartsierra	scape_: parked means waiting on the result of a channel operation like <!, >!, or alt!.
16:54	stuartsierra	scape_: It sounds like you're creating "spin" loops that repeatedly check a flag. That will tie up a thread.
16:54	gfredericks	does (str some-lazy-seq) not print the seq for some intentional reason about infinite lazy seqs and such, or just because it was never implemented?
16:55	scape_	what's suggested then? spin off go blocks that check flag and <! their return on another go block?
16:55	scape_	apply str is needed gfredericks , I believe
16:55	stuartsierra	scape_: You probably don't want to be checking a flag in a loop.
16:55	gfredericks	scape_: I know that, I'm wondering why
16:55	gfredericks	,(str '(1 2 3))
16:56	clojurebot	"(1 2 3)"
16:56	gfredericks	,(str (seq "foo"))
16:56	clojurebot	"(\\f \\o \\o)"
16:56	gfredericks	oh nevermind
16:56	gfredericks	that's actually the behavior I was reacting to and that's totally consistent
16:56	stuartsierra	scape_: Either use a blocking operation on a real thread or use a callback-based API to `put!` into a channel.
16:56	gfredericks	,[(str \x) (str [\x])]
16:56	clojurebot	["x" "[\\x]"]
16:57	gfredericks	^ that's a little bit weird though
16:57	scape_	okay, i was hoping to not write this in a call-back manner
16:58	stuartsierra	With core.async you generally use `put!` and `take!` with callbacks at the "edges" of your code, to interop with other libraries. Then your application can be written with `go` blocks.
16:59	scape_	stuartsierra: okay thanks, i'll have to rethink this :D
17:02	amalloy	gfredericks: i always assumed it was because of infinite seqs, yeah
17:02	amalloy	it's perfectly sensible to include vectors' contents, since those are known to be finite
17:17	effy	how can i read a clojure stack-trace, there is not a single line of the trace that match my file, is there a tricks to make it more readable ?
17:18	technomancy	a recent study found that clojure stack traces are "not that bad" and "often bearable"; maybe check again?
17:18	amalloy	effy: usually it's noce the case that no single line comes from your file; the "trick" of reading them is to get more practice at it. you can also paste it to refheap.com and post a link here for more experienced analysis
17:18	technomancy	sorry
17:18	`cbp	start at the top! :p
17:19	amalloy	"noce"? "not", more like
17:21	technomancy	effy: if you paste defns into the repl you won't get line numbers; make sure you're compiling the whole file as a unit
17:23	effy	technomancy: mmmmh, it's probably because i call it with C-x C-e to the repl then, thanks
17:23	rplaca	effy: another thing to watch for is lazy sequence evaluation, often caused by the print at the repl forcing evaluation
17:23	technomancy	effy: there's no technical reason C-x C-e couldn't send line numbers
17:23	technomancy	it's just that no one's bothered yet
17:24	effy	rplaca: i got lazy-seq but i dont think it should be displayed, it's a wrong type somewhere which my newbie-ness not allow me to easily spot
17:26	effy	that's a good learning oportynity, is there an easy way to trace the code or dump a kind of stack-trace but with the parameters provided during the function calls ?
17:26	technomancy	effy: check out tools.trace
17:34	technomancy	bahaha https://mobile.twitter.com/seanlevin/status/431548196809363456#tweet_431548196809363456
17:35	bbloom	technomancy: apparently twitter.com and mobile.twitter.com don't share login cookies
17:35	technomancy	bbloom: yeah, regular twitter is a real disaster when using a keyboard-driven browser
17:35	technomancy	or with noscript
17:36	bbloom	technomancy: which i consider a feature b/c it means that i'm less likely to screw around if my mouse is out of reach :-P
17:36	technomancy	my mouse is always out of reach
17:39	rhg135	mouse?
17:40	rhg135	it's over there
17:42	technomancy	sites that don't set meta rel=next/prev: threat or menace?
17:43	clj-noob	hey guys.. I'm having trouble understanding macros... I'd like to wrap the enfocus defsnippet macro in a new macro so I can dynamically create one of its parameters... in this case the uri parameter... can anyone point me to an example of a macro that does something like this ?
17:44	`cbp	clj-noob: timbre has a defmacro inside a defmacro if you're into that sort of thing
17:44	clj-noob	thx I'll go take a look
17:45	dsrx	yo dawg
17:46	`cbp	clj-noob: https://github.com/ptaoussanis/timbre/blob/master/src/taoensso/timbre.clj#L478
17:47	clj-noob	`cpb: oh.. I think I'm looking to do something different...
17:47	clj-noob	spit out a macro with one of its params generated by my own macro... not nest macros
17:48	`cbp	clj-noob: like this? https://github.com/ztellman/clj-tuple/blob/master/src/clj_tuple.clj#L69
17:50	clj-noob	`cbp: yes I think so thanks, just trying to understand that :-)
18:03	arrdem	so why does the ns macro not support nesting of partial ns's?
18:03	arrdem	eg. :require [foo [bar [baz :refer :all] [bung :refer [bah]]] [other :refer :all]]
18:07	technomancy	arrdem: because namespaces aren't actually hierarchical
18:07	technomancy	it's an illusion
18:08	arrdem	technomancy: I know that
18:08	arrdem	technomancy: but it doesn't mean the macro couldn't present the illusion
18:08	technomancy	I think the whole prefix stuff is widely regarded as a mistake
18:08	arrdem	really.
18:08	arrdem	that's rather unfortunate...
18:09	technomancy	you don't want to mess with grep
18:10	arrdem	see... you can say that but I'd rather have smarter tooling (nrepl tools, LT support, compiler -> editor integration) that allows symbol resolution rather than saying "oh go grep for it".
18:10	technomancy	arrdem: ok, well write some then =)
18:10	arrdem	we can build better tools. that the old ones work shouldn't be sufficient reason to keep them..
18:10	technomancy	nothing exists now, so don't break the best thing we have till we have something better
18:11	technomancy	you burn bridges after you cross them, not before =)
18:14	arrdem	I'll bomb that bridge when I come to it..
18:26	bbloom	technomancy: arrdem: i agree firmly with both of you :-) damn tradeoffs
18:26	bbloom	programming makes me feel like im skitzo more often than not
18:26	arrdem	we're all mad here... some tea?
18:42	gregorstocks	is there a way in lein to do something like (def profile {...}) (defproject ... :profiles {:x profile :y (merge profile {...})})?
18:43	gregorstocks	i'm trying to combine a bunch of small lein projects into one big lein project with one profile per old project, because that should solve some git headaches
18:44	gregorstocks	but everything I've tried has led to either "contains? not supported on type: clojure.lang.PersistentList" or it trying to evaluate my dependency symbols before they're loaded
18:45	gregorstocks	i guess #leiningen is a better place to ask.
18:54	arrdem	gregorstocks: so project.clj gets read and eval'd normally...
18:55	arrdem	gregorstocks: you should be able to add defs and soforth I thinl.
18:55	gregorstocks	arrdem: it turns out I want composite profiles
18:55	gregorstocks	I think
18:56	arrdem	gregorstocks: maybe. I'm not terribly familiar with leiningen's internals.
19:01	ztellman	open sourced a thing: https://github.com/Factual/durable-queue
19:02	ztellman	clj-noob: let me know if you have questions about clj-tuple
19:02	llasram	ztellman: That is sweet
19:02	llasram	(inc ztellman)
19:02	lazybot	⇒ 10
19:03	ztellman	llasram: yeah, it was a surprising nothing like this already existed
19:03	Raynes	ztellman: Open sourced things!
19:03	Raynes	ztellman: It used to be the case that basically everything I did ever was open source. Even professional stuff, cuz flatland.
19:03	Raynes	:p
19:04	ztellman	Raynes: how's the new gig treating you?
19:04	Raynes	Very well!
19:04	ztellman	glad to hear it, give my best to Lance, haven't seen him in a while
19:04	ztellman	is there going to be a scopely contingent at Clojure/West?
19:04	Raynes	Hopefully I can start dragging him to meetups.
19:05	bbloom	ztellman: i've made a bunch of file system queues... but with slab allocation?
19:05	Raynes	ztellman: Sadly no -- this one caught me a bit off guard.
19:05	Raynes	ztellman: The call for presentations opened like 5 minutes after I started this new job.
19:05	ztellman	bbloom: not sure how else you'd do it, if you want to be able to clean up after yourself and do append-only writes
19:06	Raynes	I would have submitted a presentation had I felt I had the time to actually prepare one :P
19:06	bbloom	ztellman: one file per task
19:06	ztellman	hahaha
19:06	bbloom	ztellman: performs better than (most people) think :-P
19:06	ztellman	admittedly, that didn't occur to me as a valid option
19:06	bbloom	ztellman: don't laugh, i've processed an absurd amount of shit with bash and inotify-tools
19:06	bbloom	:-)
19:09	bbloom	ztellman: i see you say 1.5k tasks/second, i've definitely done like nearly 1k with task per file :-)
19:10	ztellman	bbloom: must have not been on an AWS box
19:10	bbloom	ztellman: rackspace
19:10	ztellman	they give you fully tens of IOPS
19:10	bbloom	ztellman: if you're lucky
19:11	Raynes	Guys.
19:11	Raynes	What happened to refheap? When it start getting so many pastes? Goodness.
19:12	Raynes	We've now crossed 34k. I've had to outsource the database!
19:12	ztellman	Raynes: do you need a queue
19:12	Raynes	ztellman: 34k dude, I'm nearly in big data territory!
19:12	Raynes	It's like two gigs man.
19:13	arrdem	Raynes: the all time IRC logs for #clojure were 1.9M records...
19:13	arrdem	bigger data than my budget server can handle :P
19:13	Raynes	Hah
19:24	alew	ztellman: what was your use case for building durable queue?
19:24	ztellman	alew: some of our customers have realtime systems that emit data they want us to use
19:24	ztellman	notably, one has 50k+ datapoints/sec
19:25	ztellman	we need to journal it to S3, but sometimes S3 stops accepting writes for a bit
19:25	ztellman	every few days, we'd get a hiccup, and all the processes would fall over, hard
19:25	ztellman	meanwhile, the volume of data was increasing every week
19:25	ztellman	this was using the Hadoop S3 client, at the time
19:27	ztellman	but I've wanted something like this before, there's usually some sort of transaction log that shouldn't just be queued up in memory
19:27	alew	so durable-queue kicks in when S3 isn't accepting
19:28	ztellman	well, it's the intermediary even when S3 is working
19:28	alew	and the volume of data was high enough where memory would be prohibitively expensive?
19:28	alew	right
19:29	ztellman	I suppose I could have gotten high-mem instances for a process whose healthy memory usage is ~100mb
19:30	ztellman	but like I said, I think it's a problem that just needed to be solved, and had a bunch of applications elsewhere
19:30	alew	makes sense
19:30	ztellman	and then the processes with a bunch of in-memory backlogs aren't these fragile little bubbles you have to pray stay around long enough for them to clear
19:51	stirfoo	how do I keep emacs cider from eating tracebacks?
19:52	stirfoo	I use C-c M-j cider-jack-in and a lot of exceptions don't get printed. lien repl from the cl shows them all.
19:52	arrdem	stirfoo: they aren't eaten, they're just in Messages
19:52	Raynes	(setq cider-repl-popup-stacktraces t)
19:54	TEttinger	man Futures are great. as soon as you enter a new level, my game can preload the next level in another thread, even though the level generator is written in java.
19:54	TEttinger	never really used them before
19:54	arrdem	Futures are awesome until you start running more threads than you have hardware CPUs...
19:54	arrdem	then things get weird fast.
19:55	TEttinger	I'm only using one at a time so far
19:55	stirfoo	arrdem: haha, I like it so far, but I was never a slime guru
19:55	TEttinger	(thread beyond the executing one)
19:55	stirfoo	thanks Raynes, I'll try that
19:55	arrdem	stirfoo: I appologize. cider is totally awesome, my brain read cider as nrepl, which is cider's old name.
19:55	stirfoo	ah
19:55	alew	Future use an unbounded thread pool, right?
19:55	rsenior	ztellman: looks awesome BTW
19:55	arrdem	alew: I believe so.
19:56	ztellman	rsenior: thanks!
19:56	arrdem	alew: which is a real problem when database transactions are in futures...
19:56	arrdem	see bitemyapp/revise
19:56	rsenior	ztellman: is there a reason you didn't reach for a java message queue?
19:57	ztellman	rsenior: the closest to what I wanted was Kafka, but I figured a smaller library that could be embedded in anyone's project without dragging half the world along would be a nice thing to have
19:57	rsenior	ztellman: grim_radical and I were just talking about swapping it vs. ActiveMQ (which we're using in PuppetDB, but drags in a lot of deps)
19:57	ztellman	exactly, if all you're doing is in-process queueing, most existing products are way overkill
19:57	grim_radical	rsenior: yeah, looks like the only feature we'd be missing is scheduled retries
19:58	rsenior	ztellman: yeah, that's the PuppetDB use case
19:58	rsenior	grim_radical: right
19:58	alew	arrdem: what's the problem with db transactions in future?
19:59	arrdem	alew: when you have absurdly high write throughput
19:59	arrdem	alew: what I ran into was that I was spawning transaction futures faster than they could execute
20:00	arrdem	alew: which lead to all kinds of "interesting" failures.
20:00	ztellman	unbounded thread poooooools
20:00	stirfoo	Raynes: much better, thank you!
20:00	arrdem	bounded thread pools with work queues!
20:01	Raynes	stirfoo: I got it directly from the README :P
20:01	alew	arrdem: besides an oom error, shouldn't unbounded thread pools work fine for something io bound?
20:01	stirfoo	guilty!
20:02	arrdem	alew: no because you loose order gurantees on the writes, and I ran into really weird issues where the connections each worker was using could actually time out before the worker finished or even started.
20:05	alew	arrdem: ah, yeah, if you expect order than unbounded thread pools wouldn't work. that must have been fun to debug :P
20:05	arrdem	alew: you have noooooo idea :c
20:05	doody1	ritz doesnt work with cider right?
20:06	doody1	how do you debug clojure with emacs?
20:09	rplaca	doody1: println & tools.trace
20:10	rplaca	(I use cl-format instead of println, but I'm an outlier)
20:10	rplaca	decidedly not ideal, but it works
20:12	doody1	so set a breakpoint, inspect a ring handler params, is no go ?
20:13	sritchie_	dnolen: any advice on how to get Om (and react, I guess) to not render UI elements when they're far from the viewport?
20:13	sritchie_	dnolen: or maybe this already just works - thinking of a TODO list with 10k items, for example
20:14	dnolen	sritchie_: you will need to do some windowing logic yourself.
20:14	rplaca	doody1: that's right
20:14	dnolen	sritchie_: but you can make a generic component for horizontal lists w/o too much trouble
20:14	dnolen	sritchie_: er vertical lists
20:15	sritchie_	dnolen: trying to find the protocol to deal with this - I remember reading about IShouldRender or something in your docs...
20:16	dnolen	sritchie_: this logic should be in IRender(State), you select the list of things that are actually in view
20:17	dnolen	sritchie_: it does mean you have to write some logic to know how big elements in your view are - this is way simpler if you have a fixed height of course. If you don't will be much more complicated.
20:17	doody1	rplaca: does that suck? or may be I am so lame
20:18	sritchie_	dnolen: yeah, for sure. so figure out the location of the top of the first one, then I guess I can somehow supply only the items that are supposed to be in scope given the current windowing...
20:18	dnolen	sritchie_: exactly
20:19	sritchie_	dnolen: so probably just a calculated top: css value on the first one that's rendered?
20:19	sritchie_	cool
20:19	sritchie_	then the rest just work
20:19	dnolen	sritchie_: if scroll y is 1000px, and elements are 100px tall, you know you can render starting at index 10
20:19	sritchie_	dnolen: and set the style of the first one to give it the right offset, correct?
20:19	dnolen	sritchie_: that's right
20:20	sritchie_	dnolen: boom, what might have been a hard problem turns in to a "don't fuck up CSS syntax" problem
20:20	sritchie_	so good
20:20	dnolen	sritchie_: the logic will be a little messy especially if you want to make it cross browser
20:20	dnolen	sritchie_: but the point is that this component can be completely generic
20:20	dnolen	sritchie_: you can just reuse it every time you need this functionality
20:21	dnolen	sritchie_: if you write one for Om I'm sure everyone will just use yours :)
20:21	sritchie_	dnolen: sold
20:22	sritchie_	dnolen: gotta come up with a catchy name for the component, of course
20:22	sritchie_	dnolen: that's going to be the blocker
20:22	sritchie_	something about solipsism
20:26	rplaca	doody1: yeah, it somewhat sucks. But not quite as much as you would think, generally
20:29	muhoo	dnolen: is there any particular reason why the second arg to om/build-all needs to be a vector not a list? is it because get-in is used inside om?
20:29	dnolen	muhoo: the argument to build all can be any sequence
20:30	dnolen	muhoo: but the requirement is that everything in app-state be associative for performance reasons
20:30	muhoo	cool, thanks.
20:30	dnolen	muhoo: you can of course make other things into cursors, but you do so at your own risk
20:30	dnolen	muhoo: I only tests w/ things that satisfy map? or indexed?
20:31	muhoo	pretty sure lists do neither, that'd explain it then.
20:32	dnolen	muhoo: yeah leave lists and lazy-seqs out of your app-state
20:33	dnolen	muhoo: you can of course use lazy-seq operations on things that you get out of the app state and that will work just fine.
20:33	muhoo	makes sense, thanks for om. i was working through the om-react-tutorial and there was a comment that the arg must be a vector for unknown reasons. i wanted to know what the unknown reasons were.
20:34	muhoo	https://github.com/jalehman/react-tutorial-om, FYI
20:39	sritchie_	dnolen: one more Q - can you recommend a good way of passing an index in with build-all?
20:39	sritchie_	to get the index of the TODO item, for example
20:40	sritchie_	dnolen: actually, I can probably just zip an index on to each todo
20:40	dnolen	sritchie_: yep
20:40	sritchie_	boom, works
20:50	mlb-	$DAYJOB is massively enterprise. I want to deploy a webapp. What are my options?
20:51	muhoo	mlb-: build a uberjar and run it in a container?
20:52	muhoo	sorry, war, not uberjar
20:52	muhoo	mlb-: https://github.com/weavejester/lein-ring
20:52	mlb-	muhoo: I've been pondering that, but what's necessary to run a container environment on Windows?
20:53	muhoo	pretty sure tomcat runs on windows, but i've never tried it. i'd be shocked if it didn't tho.
20:53	arrdem	yep it does
20:53	arrdem	$google apache tomcat war deploy windows
20:53	lazybot	[Apache Tomcat 6.0 (6.0.39) - Tomcat Web Application Deployment] http://tomcat.apache.org/tomcat-6.0-doc/deployer-howto.html
20:53	mlb-	ah, okay. Will do some research and probably pester people in #tomcat then :P
20:54	mlb-	thanks, muhoo and aaronj1335_
20:54	mlb-	err, arrdem
20:54	mlb-	this tabcomplete :P
20:54	muhoo	np
20:55	arrdem	np
21:06	muhoo	speaking of lein-ring, is there a way to pass the nrepl start? args on the command line instead of mucking around in the source of (someone else's) project.clj?
21:07	muhoo	i.e. i naively tried "lein ring server-headless :nrepl :start? true" and got a spectacular fail
21:08	arrdem	wouldn't you have to actually write your own main method? otherwise unless the args are stored there you're pretty much hosed since unlike in Python we don't have sys.argv
21:10	sritchie_	dnolen: my specific use, btw, is building a stopwatch -
21:10	sritchie_	so I'm hitting the state for a rerender every 10ms, to update the stopwatch
21:10	sritchie_	dnolen: qq - I KNOW nothing changes in the rest of the app until certain events take place
21:10	muhoo	arrdem: naw, there's some magic here i remember learning about from technomancy, looking through my notes, i think i'll get it
21:11	muhoo	update-in, IIRC
21:11	sritchie_	dnolen: is there some preferred way to isolate the updates to the stopwatch timestamp from the rest of the app? It does need to be in the state, since when you hit "mark" I need to be able to create an athlete row (a todo, basically) from that current time
21:12	sritchie_	dnolen: feels like local state, but other components need to read it, and "requesting" a local timer state via channels seems like the wrong approach
21:16	muhoo	arrdem: fwiw, this was the magickal incantation that did what i wanted lein update-in :ring:nrepl merge "{:start? true :port 7777}" -- ring server-headless
21:17	arrdem	muhoo: truly an incantation worthy of my black grimoire...
21:27	sritchie_	any advice on how to convert a record to a normal map in cljs?
21:27	sritchie_	or to print it as a map, without the reader literal for the record class?
21:30	muhoo	sritchie_: (into {} ??
21:30	lazybot	muhoo: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
21:30	muhoo	lol lazybot
21:30	sritchie_	muhoo: ugh, duh
21:31	sritchie_	muhoo: I was surprised to see that records don't round trip through the reader i cljs
21:31	muhoo	i'm not too surprised by much with cljs. it's very young. very cool tho. just starting to play around with it.
21:31	sritchie_	for sure
21:33	muhoo	i'm hoping to backscroll later through the stuff you and david were talking about, looks fascinating.
21:34	muhoo	,into
21:34	clojurebot	#<core$into clojure.core$into@130b13c>
21:34	muhoo	$into
21:34	arrdem	(inc magnars) ;; clj-refactor looks awesome
21:34	lazybot	⇒ 3
21:34	muhoo	#into
21:34	muhoo	~into
21:34	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
21:35	arrdem	##into
21:35	arrdem	&&into
21:35	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: &into in this context
21:35	arrdem	$google clojurewiki lazybot
21:36	muhoo	~into is like a magical transformer ring. (into {} something) works for a surprisingly wide variety of things.
21:36	clojurebot	Ok.
21:37	muhoo	~into is like a magical transformer ring. i.e. (into {} something) converts a surprisingly wide variety of things into maps.
21:37	clojurebot	In Ordnung
21:39	dsrx	,(into {} "what what")
21:39	clojurebot	#<ExceptionInfo clojure.lang.ExceptionInfo: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Character {:instance \w}>
21:39	dsrx	,(into {} true)
21:39	clojurebot	#<ExceptionInfo clojure.lang.ExceptionInfo: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Boolean {:instance true}>
21:39	muhoo	hahaha
21:40	muhoo	,(into {} [["what" "what"]])
21:40	clojurebot	{"what" "what"}
21:40	dsrx	boring
21:41	muhoo	ok, my factoid is not very precise. feel free to correct it.
21:44	dsrx	contrast with a Real Language that can get things done, like PHP http://ideone.com/GdLvdO
21:44	`oetjenj	hey, anyone can hint me to some good tutorials on bdd (preferably of course with clojure) with more complex examples than just calculators and/or very basic stuff?
21:44	arrdem	`oetjenj: bdd?
21:44	hiredman	calculators are the bdd killer app
21:45	akyte	Behavior driven development. I think the name is usually overkill. It's closer to "more semantic tests"
21:45	`oetjenj	arrdem behavious driven development
21:45	dsrx	bondage and discipline development
21:45	`oetjenj	;)
21:49	oetjenj	but seriously i love to learn more about bdd, but i haven't been able to find anything useful beyond those very simple examples
22:29	sritchie_	dnolen: undefined.onChange: No protocol method ICursor.-path defined for type : [object Object]
22:29	sritchie_	hmm
22:30	sritchie_	when I try to set some local state
22:30	sritchie_	one idea, back in a minute
22:31	sritchie_	dnolen: yeah, happens when I stick an onChange handler onto a text field
22:31	sritchie_	(om/set-state! owner :racer-text (.. e -target -value))
22:44	technomancy	oetjenj: there's nothing really language-specific about bdd
22:44	technomancy	oetjenj: the language-specific stuff is just "how do I write a test?"
22:46	benkay	i'd like to test that a byte-array that I've generated (via (.toByteArray (biginteger my-int))) matches a test-case hex string - where would you suggest I look for parsing the byte array into hex for comparison?
22:48	seangrove	$google clojure parse byte array to hex
22:48	lazybot	[character encoding - Clojure's equivalent to Python's encode('hex ...] http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10062967/clojures-equivalent-to-pythons-encodehex-and-decodehex
22:48	benkay	alternatively, I'd eagerly welcome reading material to improve my first-principles understanding of how to round-trip int -> bytes -> hex -> int
22:49	benkay	i've seen that one, yes. i'm ignorant on the subtleties of int -> byte and byte -> hex; hex -> int i think i have a handle on though.
22:50	seangrove	benkay: Just a bit of teasing. If you've read that SO page, you're probably not too far away. Just play around with it.
22:51	benkay	oh hey! i just found ztellman's byte-streams library. am i going to cripple my understanding of clojure/jvm byte operations by using that?
22:55	seangrove	The Salesforce world is a dark one
22:57	seangrove	Heh, the man of the hour joins us
22:59	gtrak	I think I can implement piggieback for jruby, does that sound like a terrible idea?
23:05	seangrove	gtrak: What does that mean...?
23:05	seangrove	Clojure => compile to ruby => send to remote ruby env => execute => roundtrip result?
23:06	gtrak	like... sooo, nrepl middleware that evals to a ruby runtime, just to make it easy embed
23:06	gtrak	easy to embed*
23:06	gtrak	I'd like to run a ruby repl and clojure repl in the same process.
23:06	gtrak	for demo purposes
23:07	sritchie_	dnolen: if you're around, I think this may be a bug...
23:08	arrdem	has anyone tried to use core.logic to do pruning for AI search problems?
23:09	sritchie_	dnolen:(u/log (implements? om/ICursor (aget (.-props owner) "__om_cursor")))
23:09	sritchie_	is printing "false"
23:10	benkay	okay so using byte-streams, evaluating (print-bytes (.getBytes "foo")) shows foo in the hex quite clearly but (print-bytes (.toByteArray (biginteger 1096))) just shows me .H
23:18	noonian	anyone know why i get this warning when trying to implement INamed in cljs (the code seems to work fine)? "WARNING: Symbol cljs.core.INamed is not a protocol"
23:41	novochar	[1 :two "three"] ; what is `:two` here?
23:42	novochar	is [1 :two "three"] equal to [1 {:two "three"}]?
23:44	ddellacosta	novochar: no
23:44	ddellacosta	novochar: what are you trying to do?
23:44	novochar	How would you access the number 2 in a (def aList [1 2 3]) ; I'm reading that items in a vector can be accessed by index
23:44	novochar	ddellacosta: I'm reading http://clojure-doc.org/articles/tutorials/introduction.html
23:44	ddellacosta	,(nth [1 2 3] 1)
23:44	clojurebot	2
23:44	pbostrom	vector supports get also
23:45	novochar	Thank you
23:45	dissipate	novochar, no. the first thing is a vector containing three values, the second is a vector with 2 values
23:45	novochar	What is :two in [1 :two "three"]
23:45	pbostrom	:two is a keyword
23:45	ddellacosta	novochar: what do you mean, what index is it at? what thing is it?
23:45	novochar	a keyword for?
23:45	pbostrom	keyword is a datatype
23:45	novochar	an atomic value of some sort, like in erlang maybe
23:45	dissipate	novochar, a keyword is a value
23:46	dissipate	novochar, it is an immutable value
23:46	pbostrom	http://clojure.org/data_structures#Data Structures-Keywords
23:46	dissipate	novochar, have you tried the clojure koans series?
23:46	arrdem	http://clojure.org/data_structures#Data%20Structures-Keywords
23:47	dissipate	pbostrom, i thought use of 'get' was optional
23:48	dissipate	arrdem, are you going to mutter about punycoding?
23:48	pbostrom	dissipate: true, I guess I should say it implements IAssociative
23:49	arrdem	dissipate: sadly this also falls in the set of useful yet disgusting things which I'm willing to mutter about.
23:49	arrdem	there was a double URL encoding bug that took me weeks to find in one of my previous projects :
23:49	dissipate	arrdem, punycoding: the bastardization of those 'other' languages. :P
23:50	benkay	i'm working on producing some byte arrays to be sent over tcp. i'm a total novice on this level of the jvm; what tools should I be using to serialize stuff onto the wire?
23:51	arrdem	whatever the JVM uses for sockets, combined with Clojures EDN formatting, (str) and .toByteArray I assume...
23:51	arrdem	not the most efficient thing in the world but it should work...
23:52	benkay	complicating this is some C++ on the other end of the connection expecting to see ints and chars and specific magic bytes
23:52	dissipate	benkay, you might want to look into 'protocol buffers' or 'thrift'.
23:52	arrdem	benkay: do you have a specific byte frame protocol you are attempting to work with?
23:53	dissipate	benkay, protocol buffers is great for that. it is language independent. you compile the API to the language you are using.
23:54	benkay	dissipate: thrift and protobufs look awesome and maybe precisely what i'm looking for!
23:54	dissipate	benkay, https://code.google.com/p/protobuf/
23:55	dissipate	benkay, sure sounds like it. :D
23:55	benkay	arrdem: it's the bitcoin protocol and about as poorly specified as one would expect. there isn't a 'byte frame protocol' so much as a shitty wikipedia page (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification)
23:56	benkay	well, mediawiki but same diff.
23:57	arrdem	benkay: I think someone already built a BTC client for Clojure...
23:57	arrdem	benkay: or are you looking to expose the "raw" network commands?
23:57	arrdem	if you do I'll add hacking out a doge port to my todo list...
23:58	benkay	I'm actually working on a watcher for arbitrary cryptocurrencies adhering to the baseline bitcoin protocol.