#clojure – 2014-02-02

2014-02-02

00:45	insamniac	:( Faber
01:07	rovar	what would be an elegant way to un-interleave?
01:07	rovar	e.g. i have an alist and I want to break it out into 2 lists
01:17	fowlslegs	I am wondering what's causing this CompilerException... Seems like I am using recur from tail position.
01:17	fowlslegs	http://paste.debian.net/79743/
01:18	fowlslegs	Working on 4clojure #85 http://www.4clojure.com/problem/84 btw.
01:18	fowlslegs	*#84
01:51	john2x	are records the idiomatic way to model a datastore entry? Or just plain maps?
02:13	seangrove	john2x: Typically just plain ol' maps
02:27	dsrx	,(apply map vector [[:a 1] [:b 2] [:c 3]])
02:27	clojurebot	([:a :b :c] [1 2 3])
02:27	dsrx	rovar: ^
02:29	amalloy	fowlslegs: nowhere inside of a for-expression is in tail position, really
02:29	rovar	dsrx, wowowow
02:30	rovar	mind is blown
02:33	hiredman	~for
02:33	clojurebot	for is not a loop
02:47	chchjesus	lol
03:23	regexkind	hiya
03:23	regexkind	has anyone on here made use of enlive?
03:24	rhg135	I have
03:24	rhg135	But for scraping
03:24	regexkind	Yah that's what I'm trying to do
03:24	regexkind	but not sure if you'd know this then:
03:24	regexkind	do you know how to convert a collection of enlived data back into html?
03:25	regexkind	like, I have a nested map, and I want the html back
03:25	rhg135	No idea sorry
03:25	regexkind	:/ ok
05:05	quizdr	is the primary difference between get and nth the matter of exception throwing vs returning nil? and as such, the decision on which to use is primarly a decision of which of these two outcomes you'd prefer?
05:07	amalloy	&((juxt get nth) (list 1 2 3))
05:07	lazybot	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core$get
05:07	amalloy	&((juxt get nth) (list 1 2 3) 1)
05:07	lazybot	⇒ [nil 2]
05:08	quizdr	amalloy the point you are making is that get is not available for lists, correct?
05:09	amalloy	yes; alternatively, get is always fast, while nth is willing to be O(n) if necessary
05:09	quizdr	but as for vectors, for example, then the quesiton would be simply a matter of how the function handles if something is not found (assuming you do not use the not-found parameter), true?
05:09	quizdr	oh, even on a vector, nth is O(n)?
05:10	amalloy	no, i said "if necessary", which it's not for vectors
05:11	quizdr	ok. when adding to the end of a vector, is push or assoc by vector length as key a better choice?
05:11	amalloy	for vectors in particular, that's probably the only difference
05:11	amalloy	push doesn't exist; conj is the way to go (if it weren't, there would be almost no reason for conj to work on vectors)
05:12	quizdr	got it.
05:13	quizdr	final question of the hour: when deciding whether to use a key as lookup function, or the map as lookup function, it should likely depend on whether either the key or the map could be nil, true?
05:14	quizdr	(inc amalloy)
05:14	lazybot	⇒ 82
05:15	amalloy	sounds about right
05:15	quizdr	thanks, amalloy you are either up really early or really late, or what part of the world are you in?
05:16	amalloy	california, so up lateish
05:17	quizdr	indeed
05:20	quizdr	does anyone know of any useful step-by-step tutorial for getting a clojure web dev environment going on the likes of Linode? something for someone with nearly no sysops experience.
05:27	borkdude	How can I calculate (partitions (range 1 27) :min 6 :max 6) without running into memory errors...?
05:35	borkdude	too many possibilities
05:36	finishingmove	what would be the idiomatic clojure way to do euler#1 (sum of multiples of 3 or 5 under 1000)
05:50	dsrx	finishingmove: what does your solution look like?
05:50	sm0ke	hey guys why isnt there a closed? open? in core.async?
05:51	quizdr	finishingmove I can think of a variety of ways to do it, all in a single form. consider reduce, map, maybe filter. combining them will give you what you want
05:53	finishingmove	dsrx, first I had something like (apply + (filter is-multiple-of-3-or-5 (range 1000))), where is-multiple-of-3-or-5 is a custom function using "or" and "mod", but then I figured I can do something like (apply + (distinct (concat (range 0 1000 5) (range 0 1000 3)))), so I am liking that one more, but I hope it doesn't have some big performance penalty?
05:55	quizdr	finishingmove regarding performance, reduce might be a better choice than apply
05:55	rue__	But correctness and clarity above all?
05:57	finishingmove	I read somewhere that apply is considered more idiomatic Clojure than reduce.
05:57	quizdr	really? that's interesting.
05:57	quizdr	i'd like to see where that is written.
05:58	finishingmove	https://stackoverflow.com/questions/3153396/clojure-reduce-vs-apply
05:59	quizdr	since apply basically calls a function with the list as its arguments, it can be a problem if the list is very long. however i'm coming from common lisp where implementations can widely vary and allow as little as 50 function parameters, making apply dangerous. I'd have assume clojure followed this idiom, even if the same restrictions didn't apply.
06:01	quizdr	in that stackoverflow question, notice the comment by the very wise cgrand
06:01	finishingmove	now, how would this work on a lazy list ? From what I understand, range, concat and distinct would all return a lazy sequence. Does that makes "reduce" more favorable than "apply" in this case?
06:03	quizdr	your list is clearly finite so i wouldn't think that matters in this case unless you knew in advance you were not going to need all the elements in the sequence. but you do need them, because you are adding them together, so whether it is lazy or not I would think be moot
06:04	finishingmove	Ah, I see. I'm still new to lazyness... that makes sense though.
06:04	opqdonut	fikusz: for + it doesn't matter
06:04	opqdonut	oops
06:04	opqdonut	fikusz: ignore that
06:04	opqdonut	finishingmove: for + is doesn't matter, the multi-arity version of + is implemented using apply
06:05	opqdonut	so (apply + list) and (reduce + list) are exactly the same, the former just has one indirection
06:05	quizdr	opqdonut see this that suggests + is actually implemented using reduce: http://stackoverflow.com/a/3153643/768472
06:05	dsrx	I think you mean the multi-arity version of + is implemented using reduce
06:05	opqdonut	err, that's what I mean
06:05	opqdonut	*meant
06:05	dsrx	(which is in agreement with the last thing you said)
06:07	opqdonut	I'm not sure which form I prefer, but I kinda feel like using apply for + and merge etc. is appropriate
06:07	opqdonut	but it's only a couple of functions for which apply f and reduce f are the same thing
06:08	quizdr	the arguments against apply have more weight in other lisps, so likely don't factor into the clojure idioms
06:09	opqdonut	yeah
06:12	finishingmove	reduce reads better to me, so I'll be using that, since the "idiomatic apply" mythn got busted (more or less)
06:13	quizdr	i think your euler solution is not bad, the one contained in one form, not the one with the extra function
06:14	quizdr	i'd bet it could be shorter, however. after doing many of the 4clojure problems i'm convinced there is always a shorter alternative
06:19	hyPiRion	I think rhickey commented that you should reduce whenever it makes semantically sense, except when you're calling `str`. Then it's cheaper and better to use apply
06:19	deadghost	hmm what
06:19	deadghost	I just tried it
06:19	deadghost	reduce + and apply str have better performance
06:20	deadghost	and now I'm aware I totally don't know what it's doing under the hood
06:20	hyPiRion	$source str
06:20	lazybot	str is http://is.gd/k4S9Km
06:21	piranha	is there $source command for cljs? :)
06:22	hyPiRion	instead of doing (str (str a b) c), (str a b c) creates a stringbuilder, which only creates a single string instead of several
06:23	deadghost	is stringbuilder javaspeak
06:23	finishingmove	sounds like something Gargamel invented and placed into the smurf village
06:24	quizdr	finishingmove actually it is.
06:26	quizdr	for anyone interested there are some nifty examples on this page: http://java.ociweb.com/mark/clojure/article.html I like the comparision of get-in with reduce for searching nested maps
06:27	deadghost	I like that guide
06:27	deadghost	though I didn't read all of it
06:27	deadghost	got me through cl -> clojure
06:27	quizdr	you should read all of it. it's not that long
06:27	quizdr	and what are your thoughts on cl vs clojure?
06:28	deadghost	I didn't use cl for very long
06:28	deadghost	but my impression is stuff works in clojure
06:28	deadghost	and not so much in CL
06:29	quizdr	ha ha
06:29	quizdr	well i do find clojure easier to learn than CL. the immutability actually helps the learning process i think
06:29	deadghost	I think I went though 3 libraries to scrape something
06:29	quizdr	and clojure is more elegant as a lisp-1
06:29	deadghost	and none of them worked all the way
06:30	deadghost	documentation was spotty, quicklisp + asdf hard to figure out, and community not what I'd call friendly
06:31	deadghost	quizdr, did you learn by book or what
06:31	deadghost	I'd probably have a REALLY REALLY hard time with clojure if I didn't already 70% finish a CL book
06:31	quizdr	yes i learn mainly from books
06:32	quizdr	though with clojure there are other fantastic sources of learning too
06:32	deadghost	is there a good first clojure book?
06:32	quizdr	for the basics in a quick and non-intimidating way, the Halloway book is good
06:32	quizdr	not too long, but also not too deep
06:32	finishingmove	quizdr, I actually had that link bookmarked :) I'm one of those people who herd up on resources and read before they dig into anything :P
06:32	quizdr	finishingmove so am i
06:33	deadghost	the only clojure books I've thumbed through are web dev with clojure and clojure book
06:33	quizdr	i've read about 4 clojure books at this point
06:33	quizdr	i still have dumb questions every now and then however
06:33	deadghost	I like clojure book but holy crap it is dense
06:33	quizdr	simple things i forget, because i'm also learning other languages for work, so it gets all mixed up in my head sometimes
06:34	deadghost	common lisp: a gentle introduction is symbolic computing is among my favorite books
06:34	deadghost	because it's actually pretty gentle
06:35	quizdr	i think i have that one
06:35	quizdr	i've got a ton of CL books
06:35	quizdr	i try to implement their examples in clojure
06:35	deadghost	did you get into CL much
06:35	quizdr	it's fun and you learn quickly that way
06:35	jonasen_	Anyone seen "Symbol's value as variable is void: cider-repl-input-start-mark" when doing M-x cider-jack-in?
06:35	quizdr	i built some apps for myself in CL, simple things to parse text and store personal data. nothing too deep.
06:36	quizdr	jonasen_ can't say i have
06:36	quizdr	maybe something in your project.clj settings?
06:36	jonasen_	quizdr: I've tried with two different projects..
06:36	jonasen_	same result
06:37	deadghost	jonasen_, are you using melpa
06:37	jonasen_	deadghost: not sure
06:37	deadghost	where are you getting cider?
06:37	jonasen_	deadghost: M-x package-install
06:37	drorbemet	Hi, which clojure function is best for partitioning a lazy string by pattern? clojure.contrib.string/partition looks like it but there is no clojure.string/partition ?
06:38	deadghost	jonasen_, did you include melpa in your package-archives list in .emacs?
06:38	jonasen_	deadghost: let me check
06:38	deadghost	because melpa has a tendency to screw things up
06:38	deadghost	because it gets unstable stuff
06:39	drorbemet	http://richhickey.github.io/clojure-contrib/string-api.html#clojure.contrib.string/partition
06:40	jonasen_	deadghost: (add-to-list 'package-archives '("marmalade" . "http://marmalade-repo.org/packages/"))
06:40	jonasen_	that's the only reference to package-archives in my init.el
06:40	deadghost	ok then the issue isn't from melpa
06:40	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
06:41	drorbemet	clojure.string/split is not lazy http://clojure.github.io/clojure/clojure.string-api.html#clojure.string/split
06:42	jonasen_	deadghost: ok. It magically started working again... not sure what I did wrong previously
06:43	deadghost	jonasen_, then all is well
06:43	deadghost	for now
06:43	jonasen_	deadghost: yep. 'til next time... Thanks for your help
06:48	deadghost	jonasen_, idk how you have/like your packages set up but you might want to consider something like this in your .emacs: http://pastebin.com/YS0w2gTG
06:49	deadghost	so it installs packages from a list on startup instead of M-x package-install
06:50	jonasen_	deadghost: thanks. I'll consider it.
06:57	quizdr	So when you pass args to a multimethod, those args are actually evaluated for two different functions: the dispatch as well as the multimethod. 2 procedures for the same args, where the first procedure chooses the second procedure. sound correct?
07:38	sobel	i wish i could find SQL libraries that i don't hate
07:39	sobel	i reeeaaally don't want an ORM or a DSL in front of SQL, i just want simple parameter mapping like psycopg2
07:41	sobel	and i don't want it to fight me on custom data types. postgres has a very useful type system that's been extended for json, hstore, inet, array, and geospatial types that are non standard
07:41	sobel	but so useful
07:42	sobel	i find it wrong and wrongful to a) put big queries in client code and b) deal with leaky abstractions like HoneySQL
07:43	sobel	the jdbc library shouldn't be trying to save the poor clojurist from dealing with SQL directly. it should make dealing with SQL directly conevient.
07:44	steckerhalter	a bear should not be a fish
07:49	sobel	well, i can't promote clojure as viable data access tool until i figure out decent jdbc usage
07:50	sobel	i can rewrite some queries but not all to work around array types
08:26	scape_	sobel: to work around array types... is this within honeysql? have you given korma a chance. it's not ideal perhaps but might be a better choice
08:27	sobel	no, the limitations of those DSLs are problematic, too
08:59	gfredericks	sobel: so I've done a lot of this sort of thing
09:00	gfredericks	sobel: I'm interested in why you see honeysql as a leaky abstraction; to me it's just a way of assembling sql queries programmatically that uses data instead of string manipulation
09:00	gfredericks	if you're not making your sql queries programmatically it's not a big win, and it's not a big deal if you just decide not to use it
09:02	gfredericks	e.g., if I want to create a query-1! function that checks that the query gets exactly one result, and does it by adding "LIMIT 2" to the query, you can do that with honeysql without worrying about A) whether LIMIT always goes at the end or if there might be something extra after that I have to worry about when doing my string concatenation, and B) whether the incoming query already has a LIMIT clause on it
09:03	gfredericks	and regarding custom types, all the plumbing has been added to java.jdbc to handle this in both writes and reads; it's just not necessarily super convenient yet
09:03	gfredericks	I think the worst part is postgres arrays; for writing them I haven't figured out how to do it without mucking with some sort of baseTypeName in the jdbc interop
09:03	gfredericks	certainly it's no worse than in java
09:04	sobel	gfredericks: honeysql is a leaky abstraction because it must track every bit of syntax in the sql dialect. i don't see the point of an isomorphic DSL.
09:04	sobel	i mean, either it's isomorphic (and pointless in my view) or it's leaky
09:05	sobel	i also think constructing queries at runtime (especially in client code) is poor design
09:07	sobel	nail it down.
09:08	gfredericks	sobel: so do you embrace redundancy in your queries, or do you think there's some way of avoiding it in the data model?
09:08	sobel	what redundancy?
09:08	gfredericks	e.g., if I have two similar tables
09:09	gfredericks	and want to query them in similar but not identical ways
09:09	gfredericks	then either I have two queries with similar structure and thus shared information
09:09	gfredericks	or I'm creating the query programmatically
09:09	sobel	i would have to see more of the design in particular
09:09	gfredericks	well, how about the query-1! example
09:10	gfredericks	do you just append LIMIT 1 every time you make such a query?
09:10	gfredericks	repeating the logic?
09:10	gfredericks	LIMIT 2 rather
09:10	sobel	sec.. (phone)
09:20	llasram	gfredericks: That looks pretty slick. I had not actually looked at honeysql but had also mentally slotted it into the "sad DSL" category. Actually looking at it, it looks great
09:21	gfredericks	llasram: yeah in my experience it's minimal enough to not be dumb, and whenever it "leaks" and can't do what you want you can drop back to strings with no problem
09:22	gfredericks	it's all pure functions so it's simple to verify that it's doing what you think it is
09:22	gfredericks	SQL is the sad DSL :)
09:22	sobel	SQL is a category of database-specific DSLs
09:22	llasram	:-)
09:23	gfredericks	sobel: something data oriented would be more useful
09:23	rovar	errg..
09:23	rovar	I'm passing in [:6 2] to https://www.refheap.com/31630
09:23	rovar	and getting java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching clause: [:6 2]
09:24	sobel	the common ground (standard SQL) is suitable for most data operations but most interesting things are not spec'd in the standard
09:24	rovar	I don't see how [[a 2]] doesn't match that
09:24	sobel	so you have DML that is fairly portable, at least, when the schema is implemented the same
09:25	gfredericks	sobel: suitable for low-level data operations maybe, but not trying to build abstractions on top of
09:25	sobel	exactly. it is not suitable for building DSLs on top of.
09:25	sobel	each SQL is its own DSL for its database.
09:25	gfredericks	I don't mean DSLs
09:26	sobel	first of all, if i have LIMIT 1 in a query in client code, i have lost
09:27	gfredericks	why's that?
09:27	sobel	if it's that important it should be a function or a view
09:28	karls	hey guys. quick question - why is it when i do (class {:key "val"}) => clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap, but when i def the same thing and call class on the resulting var, it gives back clojure.lang.PersistentHashMap? https://www.refheap.com/31632
09:29	gfredericks	karls: that's terribly interesting and I have no idea
09:29	sobel	if you look at the database in OO terms, most of the tables are private implementations. or should be. care must be taken to minimize the public interface or you end up with mad coupling
09:29	gfredericks	karls: hash maps are used for larger maps; in general you can ignore the difference
09:29	gfredericks	sobel: okay, so you do your abstracting using db mechanism like functions/views
09:30	sobel	a LIMIT clause in client queries tells me it is peeking too deeply into the implementation
09:30	sobel	gfredericks: i wouldn't call it abstracting, but i do limit my public db interface that way
09:30	karls	gfredericks: hm.. this makes multimethods that dispatch on the class of an argument pretty annoying.
09:30	sobel	a table is an acceptable part of a public interface, but it should be intentional
09:31	gfredericks	sobel: which means your application logic is spread across your development language and your sql db code
09:31	gfredericks	karls: use IPersistentMap instead
09:31	sobel	don't tell me there's a bright line between storage logic, business logic, and application logic
09:31	sobel	because there isn't
09:32	sobel	the database enforces application design all the time
09:32	gfredericks	sobel: I'm not telling you anything I'm trying to noodle through the differences in how we approach problems
09:32	sobel	data structures are part of application logic
09:32	sobel	so i would say application logic is spread through client and database code
09:33	gfredericks	sobel: I think clojureland people like to maximize their ability to try new things in seconds at the repl; so to the extent that trying new things requires installing things in the database that could be more dificult
09:33	sobel	gfredericks: that is not a clojureland thing, that is common to pretty much all devs who are not data engineers. that approach is just irrational when you already have a database in play.
09:34	gfredericks	sobel: okay; I don't have a good way to evaluate the different perspectives, so I will have to drop out of this discussion on account of Not Smart Enough
09:34	sobel	gfredericks: thanks, i do hope to crack this nut of appropriate data access!
09:34	karls	gfredericks: that sounds reasonable. how would i go about using that in a multimethod though?
09:34	gfredericks	karls: the same way you use the classes
09:35	gfredericks	sobel: let me know if you need help with java.jdbc & custom types
09:36	sobel	gfredericks: i actually will. looks like i won't get to spend today coding but over the next couple weeks i hope to have it all nailed down. if i can just get a library of functions based on about 6 queries to work well, i will have everything i need to write a sweet proof-of-principle app for work
09:37	llasram	sobel: OOC, where do you work, if you don't mind my asking?
09:37	sobel	llasram: it's a Chicago based finance co. called Enova
09:37	llasram	cool
09:38	sobel	there is exactly one clojure app in production already. i'm tight with the guy that wrote it, and he's more or less my main inspiration to look into clojure.
09:38	sobel	but i found out it doesn't even touch jdbc. i'd thought he was using our usual postgresql backend but he apparently went with some nosql db.
09:39	sobel	(and fair enough, he didn't know you could just pervert postgresql tables to serve blobs quite nicely)
09:40	karls	gfredericks: i'm still a bit confused. i thought multimethods dispatch on a value?
09:40	gfredericks	karls: how were you trying to use them before you started asking questions?
09:41	karls	in the case of a class, you just "switch" on the class name.
09:41	gfredericks	karls: IPersistentMap is a classname in that respect
09:41	quizdr	So when you pass args to a multimethod, those args are actually
09:41	quizdr	evaluated for two different functions: the dispatch as well as the
09:41	quizdr	multimethod. 2 procedures for the same args, where the first
09:41	quizdr	procedure chooses the second procedure. sound correct?
09:41	quizdr
09:41	quizdr	yikes! sorry
09:41	gfredericks	,(defmulti crepes class)
09:41	clojurebot	#'sandbox/crepes
09:42	gfredericks	,(defmethod crepes java.lang.Number [x] (inc x))
09:42	clojurebot	#<MultiFn clojure.lang.MultiFn@1fdd37d>
09:42	karls	gfredericks: a multimethod that dispatches on the class of the second argument. and then i came across this {} vs (def m {}) issue.
09:42	gfredericks	,(crepes 41)
09:42	clojurebot	42
09:42	gfredericks	,(defmethod crepes clojure.lang.IPersistentMap [m] (assoc m :num 42))
09:42	clojurebot	#<MultiFn clojure.lang.MultiFn@1fdd37d>
09:42	gfredericks	,(crepes {})
09:42	clojurebot	{:num 42}
09:42	gfredericks	,(crepes (array-map :a 9))
09:42	clojurebot	{:num 42, :a 9}
09:43	gfredericks	,(crepes (hash-map :b 10))
09:43	clojurebot	{:b 10, :num 42}
09:43	gfredericks	karls: ^ looks like it all works?
09:43	karls	gfredericks: !
09:43	karls	that's great!
09:43	karls	gfredericks: thanks!
09:43	gfredericks	np
09:46	karls	gfredericks: that's really cool. i wasn't aware that IPersistentMap "counts" as a class.
09:47	gfredericks	interfaces are classes for a lot of purposes
09:47	gfredericks	,(instance? clojure.lang.IPersistentMap {})
09:47	clojurebot	true
09:47	gfredericks	^ that purpose is probably the most relevant
09:47	karls	indeed. that's really nice.
10:10	hyPiRion	,(instance? clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection {})
10:10	clojurebot	true
10:22	AeroNotix	,(anscestors clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection)
10:22	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: anscestors in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
10:22	AeroNotix	,(ancestors clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection)
10:22	clojurebot	#{clojure.lang.Seqable}
10:49	rovar	is there a way to get lein to load a plugin? I'm trying to run lein midje.. I have it in my :profiles :dev :plugins
10:49	rovar	but when I run lein midje, it says it's not a task
10:49	rovar	:profiles {:dev {:dependencies [[midje "1.6.0"]]}
10:49	rovar	:plugins [[lein-midje "3.1.3"]]}
10:51	konr	what's the other special symbol valid inside macros, besides &form?
10:51	llasram	rovar: It may need to be in your top-level `plugins`, or in your profiles.clj `:user` profile plugins. I'd need to look at the code to recall the order of profile application vs plugin-resolution
10:51	llasram	konr: You mean &env ?
10:52	rovar	llasram, it works when I put it in my user profile, but I'm trying to make this project workable for export.. i'll try putting it into top level plugins
10:52	konr	llasram: yes, thanks!
11:04	gfredericks	konr: (source defmacro) has those somewhere ;-)
11:13	fowlslegs	Hey all! I'm working on 4clojure problem 84 http://www.4clojure.com/problem/84 and am running into problems with recursion in my script. It seems like I am recurring from tail position, but I'm getting an error that I'm not http://paste.debian.net/79743.
11:17	schmir	fowlslegs: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7813497/clojure-what-exactly-is-tail-position-for-recur may help
11:19	schmir	it's not in tail position because it's enclosed by the outer for
11:38	technomancy	rovar: top-level :plugins is the usual way to go, but I'm surprised it doesn't work in :dev :plugins
12:52	gzymsiu	hi all
13:21	albert_	I'm trying to compile a google closure aware javascript file into my clojurescript compilation set. I noticed that when I do this and require the provided namespace in my clojurescript code via (:require [my.gc.ns]) it works, but If I dont require it, it doesn't seem to be added to the compilation set. Is there a way to get it added to the compilation set without having to require it in the clojurescript source file
13:27	albert_	that is, my namespacing of my javascript file via goog.provide("my.namespace") isn't being added to my code
13:28	albert_	even after including the gc aware file in my project.clj :libs
13:33	dnolen	albert_: you need to require it. Is there a point to not doing so?
13:34	albert_	dnolen: yes, the file depends on some clojurescript namespaces, so requiring results in a circular dependcy
13:35	dnolen	albert_: there's not much you can do except break the circularly dependency.
13:42	sdegutis	Well then.
13:50	gfredericks	somebody was asking earlier why (def m {1 2}) creates a hash-map rather than an array-map, and I had no idea; does anybody else?
13:51	borkdude	gfredericks that is indeed odd
13:51	gfredericks	,(class {1 2})
13:51	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
13:52	gfredericks	,(def m {1 2})
13:52	clojurebot	#'sandbox/m
13:52	gfredericks	,(class m)
13:52	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentHashMap
13:52	gfredericks	I'm a little weirded out that I didn't know about this before
13:52	andyf	fowlslegs: The error message may be confusing, but I think it is because the recur is inside neither a loop nor fn expression.
13:53	Bronsa	gfredericks: I have a patch in jira for that
13:53	Bronsa	let me find it
13:54	andyf	gfredericks: CLJ-944 comments and analysis may shed some light on it. I believe there is a path through the code that does not create PersistentArrayMap's for small maps, whereas most others do
13:54	Bronsa	gfredericks: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-944
13:54	Bronsa	andyf: you beat me :)
13:54	gfredericks	omg guy s/then/than/
13:54	gfredericks	do I have permissions to edit the title?
13:55	gfredericks	I do!
13:55	gfredericks	is that going to distract anybody's inbox?
13:55	Bronsa	who cares.
13:55	andyf	Only the creator and 3 watchers, I think
13:55	gfredericks	okay well they deserve it then :)
13:56	gfredericks	okay finally the important aspects of this ticket have been attended to
13:56	andyf	Yeah, it is totally going to be fixed tomorrow now :-) (yes, sarcasm)
14:07	arrdem	augustl: interesting OS idea... I'll be watching with interest :D
14:09	arrdem	augustl: are you planning to try and bootstrap a JIT'd environment, or shooting for something simpler?
14:25	augustl	arrdem: thanks :) I do like the idea of JIT for the system language. Not sure how much work it is.. And the less work I have to do, the better :)
14:27	arrdem	augustl: I'm just curious because a longtime idea of mine has been to take a Clojure-like system and build an OS based around jiting all the "immutable data" semantics out into a real metal-friendly runtime with programmer friendly semantics.
14:28	AeroNotix	https://github.com/lshift/cloverage/issues/33
14:29	AeroNotix	if anyone's interested^ weird error when using Cloverage with some macros I wrote.
14:29	gfredericks	Huh. I wonder if pure functions would allow you to do "reference prediction". E.g., "I'm going to just mutate this data structure assuming nobody will need the old copy, and if I turn out to be wrong we'll just back up."
14:29	augustl	arrdem: sounds like we basically have the same idea :)
14:29	arrdem	augustl: :D
14:29	augustl	arrdem: hopefully the entire IP stack will be written in the JIT-ed system language. Why does IP need to be written in machine code?
14:29	arrdem	gfredericks: that's data liveness analysis. old compilers topic.
14:30	gfredericks	arrdem: yeah no way could I be original
14:30	arrdem	augustl: JIT'd drivers? up top man, exactly what I wanted.
14:30	augustl	arrdem: if you're the only one that had an idea, it's probably a bad idea, as they say :)
14:31	augustl	someone on HN suggested forking an existing small OS, will probably do that, current progress is a basic understanding of EFI booting and no actual relevant code..
14:32	arrdem	haha, that's where all of this stuff starts... an idea and no code :P
14:32	bbloom	augustl: you should look the work from Alan Kay's Viewpoints research lab
14:32	bbloom	augustl: they implemented a TCP/IP stack as a non-deterministic peg parser with ometa
14:33	augustl	arrdem: at least I'm past the infamous "mkdir ...." problem (I have a name for it)
14:33	augustl	bbloom: ah, very cool
14:33	augustl	I'm the first to admit that my lack of familiarity of prior art is disturbing to say the least.. :) Basically only Clojure and some Linux.
14:33	bbloom	augustl: i was gonna write a big comment on HN, but decided not to bother with that hostile audience
14:33	arrdem	augustl: get a runtime first, then we can worry about building a saner filesystem :P
14:34	bbloom	augustl: yeah, you're basically doomed unless you pick a particular problem you want to solve
14:34	bbloom	augustl: is the goal just to learn something for yourself?
14:35	augustl	bbloom: that is at least a part of it, I consider it a research project, not a practical OS anyone will ever run
14:36	bbloom	augustl: do you have any need for it to actually boot? i think you might be interested in simply building a VM instead of an OS
14:37	bbloom	there are lots of very smart folks who have worked on language VMs who think that multi-language VMs are kinda a bad idea, but there are other folks who think that multilanguage VMs are the OSes of the future
14:37	bbloom	i'm still not sure what camp i'm in :-)
14:37	bbloom	one thing is for sure: hardware sucks :-P
14:37	arrdem	bbloom: common runtimes are awesome :D
14:37	augustl	bbloom: a month ago I thought doing it on bare metal would be cool
14:37	arrdem	augustl: oh gods why
14:37	augustl	but now that I haven't gotten anywhere... Perhaps a VM is a good first step.
14:38	bbloom	augustl: have you ever implemented your own little lisp or GC or anything like that?
14:38	bbloom	augustl: maybe start there
14:38	augustl	ideally not with too many dependencies on the OS so it can run on the bare metal in the future :)
14:38	bbloom	it's a right of passage after all :-)
14:39	augustl	true that :) I've written a lisp in Ruby once, using ruby data so I didn't need a parser :)
14:39	bbloom	arrdem: at this point, it's not clear we as a discipline understand well enough to create a truly useful cross-language VM
14:39	bbloom	augustl: parsing is it's own entire rabbit hole
14:39	bbloom	you can fall down the parsing hole and never come out :-P
14:41	arrdem	bbloom: how so. We may not be able to build runtimes which are in some sense "optimal" for all languages, but that doesn't mean we don't know full well how to point multiple languages at a single common JIT'd runtime.
14:41	arrdem	bbloom: and that is, I think, good enough
14:42	bbloom	arrdem: that's a turing tarpit argument
14:43	bbloom	arrdem: there are things we simply can't do on the JVM without being prohibitively complex or slow
14:44	arrdem	bbloom: the usual whipping boy being primitive arithmetic... yes.
14:45	bbloom	arrdem: or much more interesting features, like copy-on-write VM images, or delimited continuations, or more
14:49	arrdem	bbloom: we'll just have to see where the world goes. I think that while these things are indeed hard, working with metal is no nicer and that thanks to the reusability and performance gains which JIT'd systems _can_ offer we will see them increase in use whether or not we can do them "right".
14:50	bbloom	arrdem: i think we need a lot more VM investment/research
14:50	bbloom	arrdem: i think that multilanguage VMs are the future... they just aren't the present
14:51	bbloom	frankly, as nice as clojure is on the JVM, it was designed to fit in to constrained hosts
14:51	bbloom	which was a brilliant move for rich's goals
14:51	bbloom	but if you've got research goals, i'd probably target the VM level
14:51	gratimax	aside question, do you think we'll see more optimized dynamic language vms in the future? there must be quite a few hoops to jump getting a dynamic language like clojure running on the jvm
14:52	arrdem	gratimax: people will continue to run dynamic languages on VMs and they will continue to be slow
14:52	bbloom	gratimax: that's less true than you'd think. turns out that the JVM is basically already a dynamic language itself
14:52	dnolen	gratimax: getting dynamic languages to run on the JVM isn't that hard. Making them as fast as Clojure however is another matter.
14:52	arrdem	gratimax: so much of compiler driven optimization is type dependant that static types and type analyisis are really critical to "high performance".
14:53	bbloom	arrdem: i'd argue that performance is about specialization, of which static types is only a small part of a balanced strategy :-)
14:55	arrdem	bbloom: let me get my masters, then we can have this talk :P
15:20	lvh_	hi!
15:20	gfredericks	lvh_: hallo
15:20	lvh_	I want to write some clojurescript, and I have a porject which is perfect for a d3.js treemap
15:20	lvh_	is strokes the thing to use? or should I just use d3 directly
15:21	lvh_	it doesn't seem to hard either way; for d3 I can just do (-> (whatever) (something else0)
15:22	dnolen	lvh_: either approach is probably going to be OK. strokes just makes it so that you can use CLJS data structures instead of JS arrays / objects.
15:23	lvh_	oh. that seems like mostly a win except I don't expect to change the data at all
15:27	i_s	where is this macro now? "-?>" ? (cant get search working for that term)
15:29	rebcabin	i_s: github/rplevy/swiss-arrows
15:29	rebcabin	i think that's what you're looking for
15:29	bbloom	(doc some->) ; i_s
15:29	clojurebot	"([expr & forms]); When expr is not nil, threads it into the first form (via ->), and when that result is not nil, through the next etc"
15:29	i_s	great, thank you
15:37	lvh_	is clojure.java.io still what I use to read a line from a file? It seems I want clojure.contrib.io maybe.
15:38	llasram	lvh_: clojure.contrib.* is ancient history
15:38	lvh_	is clojure.contrib.io.read-lines old and busted or something
15:38	lvh_	okay
15:39	llasram	lvh_: You want clojure.java.io/reader
15:39	llasram	like: (with-open [inr (io/reader filename)] (->> inr line-seq do-stuff))
15:39	lvh_	so (first (line-seq (reader "fn"))?
15:39	lvh_	oh, okay.
15:40	llasram	Yours is fine except you'll want to `with-open` the reader
15:40	llasram	Well, which means it needs to go lexically outside the rest of it :-)
15:40	lvh_	that closes the file, I'm guessing? anyway I'll go read clojure.java.io
15:40	lvh_	Thank you!
15:40	llasram	Yeah -- its a macro which expands to a try..finally block
15:40	llasram	np
15:41	AeroNotix	is anyone using Cloverage?
15:50	AeroNotix	do my messages appear here?
15:50	gfredericks	,'yup
15:50	clojurebot	yup
15:50	AeroNotix	ah ok
15:51	gfredericks	apparently cloverage coverage amongst the channel members is lacking
15:51	gfredericks	also maybe sunday is slow
15:51	AeroNotix	gfredericks: I've asked this several times before and it seems that coverage data is not something that people use.
15:52	llasram	Hmm?
15:52	gfredericks	AeroNotix: I saw another library the other day and was going to try it but haven't yet
15:52	AeroNotix	Cloverage is the most widely developed, so far
15:52	AeroNotix	gfredericks: yes? Do you remember it?
15:52	gfredericks	I think it was the piplin fellah
15:52	gfredericks	lemmeesee
15:52	AeroNotix	ok
15:53	gfredericks	https://github.com/dgrnbrg/guzheng
15:53	gfredericks	I hadn't heard of cloverage
15:53	gfredericks	I haven't been looking for a coverage tool though I just stumbled on guzheng
15:54	AeroNotix	gfredericks: cloverage seems to work fine... I've just come up against a bug, though. I'm generating defrecords with macros and it seems to choke on that
15:54	AeroNotix	and the output is a custom reporting output, so I can't plug it into e.g. cobertura
15:56	AeroNotix	ok so guzheng didn't die when running
15:57	gfredericks	the less catchy the name, the less it crashes
15:58	AeroNotix	gfredericks: any idea how to get the info out of it? It doesn't generate any files
15:58	gfredericks	AeroNotix: I know nothing about it, sorry
15:58	AeroNotix	gfredericks: cheers anyway
16:00	AeroNotix	gfredericks: I just use it to mean "thank you"
16:00	AeroNotix	but that might be an Englishism
16:00	gfredericks	that is what urban dictionary told me
16:00	AeroNotix	American'ts might try to use it but they just sound weird saying "cheers"
16:00	AeroNotix	americant's*
16:01	AeroNotix	lol spelling
16:01	AeroNotix	whatever, it's late
16:01	gfredericks	the weird part is the definition said you can also use it after giving something
16:01	AeroNotix	gfredericks: i've never used it like that, but English is full of contradictions
16:02	gfredericks	(inc english)
16:02	lazybot	⇒ 0
16:02	gfredericks	lol
16:02	llasram	nice
16:02	gfredericks	alright well now I can be british
16:02	lvh_	Hi! I'm parsing some apache log lines; I really only want the URL path
16:02	lvh_	is there a thing I can just use that will magically parse apache web server logs?
16:03	llasram	lvh_: There is almost certainly an existing Java library for that
16:04	AeroNotix	lvh_: qtile?
16:05	lvh_	I only know that as a window manager
16:05	llasram	You know what, I'm going to downgrade that to "probably"
16:05	lvh_	llasram: there's a URL parsing lib for clj, but not really paths
16:05	lvh_	maybe it just magically works
16:06	llasram	lvh_: Oh, if you've already gotten the URL part, then there's lots of options for then parsing the URL
16:06	lvh_	llasram: no, I don't, sorry
16:06	llasram	,(.getPath (URI. "http://example.com/fun/time/path"))
16:06	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Unable to resolve classname: URI, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
16:06	llasram	Pfft
16:06	lvh_	I have Apache web server log lines
16:06	llasram	,(.getPath (java.net.URI. "http://example.com/fun/time/path"))
16:06	clojurebot	"/fun/time/path"
16:06	lvh_	I want the paths out of them
16:06	llasram	Ok, I see
16:07	llasram	Yeah -- so that seems like a really common task, but I don't know of an existing library right off the top of my head
16:07	AeroNotix	lvh_: yeah I just remember your handle in the context of qtile... not sure why
16:07	lvh_	I guess maybe I can do a regex match for "(?:GET\|POST\|PUT\|DELETE) (.*) (?:HTTP)"
16:07	lvh_	what's not-greedy * spelled in clj/java?
16:07	llasram	*?
16:07	clojurebot	* is just for when you are lazy and sloppy
16:07	llasram	heh
16:08	llasram	Haha, here's an especially exciting regex solution: http://scalability.org/?p=3802
16:11	lvh_	,(re-find #"(?:GET\|POST\|PUT\|DELETE) (.*?) (?:HTTP)" "121.243.231.243 - - [20/Jan/2014:06:31:43 +0100] \"GET /images/nav-off-bg.png HTTP/1.1\" 200 310 \"http://www.python.org/\" \"Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1) AppleWebKit/535.7 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/16.0.904.0 Safari/535.7\"")
16:12	clojurebot	["GET /images/nav-off-bg.png HTTP" "/images/nav-off-bg.png"]
16:12	lvh_	I don't understand why that gives me two results.
16:12	lvh_	Didn't I just make the outside groups non-capturing?
16:13	rue__	lvh_: Non-capturing means into a numbered group
16:14	rue__	So you are still /matching/ the string, but your only match group is the middle string.
16:16	lvh_	rue__: I got the latter, not the former sentence.
16:16	lvh_	rue__: How do I get just the match group?
16:16	rue__	It’s the second value in your vector there
16:16	lvh_	rue__: Sure, but I mean in general
16:16	lvh_	sorry, I'm used to named groups
16:17	rue__	I’m not sure I understand? That’s how you’d do it… match, and then take the groups you’re interested in. There are zero-width negative modifiers (which leave out a matched part from the result, in effect), but I’m not sure it’s worth it
16:18	oetjenj	non-capturing doesn't mean capture into numbered group, non-capturing means - as it implies - no capture at all ;) try the regex without non-caputing (and use capturing instead) and compare the results
16:19	gfredericks	I think lvh_ might want a single string back
16:19	gfredericks	,(re-find #".{3}" "hey look at this")
16:19	clojurebot	"hey"
16:19	rue__	#"(?<!GET\|POST\|PUT\|DELETE) (.*?) (?!HTTP)", I think
16:19	lvh_	Sorry, I was confusing zero-width with non-capturing
16:19	lvh_	rue__: What's the difference between ?<! and ?!
16:20	rue__	Former is lookbehind, latter is lookahead
16:20	TEttinger	lvh, I believe re-find will always return a sequence of the full matched string as the first element, followd by any captured groups, if there are any groupings in the regex.
16:20	rue__	^
16:20	oetjenj	TEttinger, correct
16:21	oetjenj	unless there is no match, than re-find returns nil, iirc
16:21	lvh_	rue__: ah, thanks
16:21	Wild_Cat	wouldn't you want re-groups instead, though?
16:21	lvh_	TEttinger: aha; so if I have one matched group...
16:21	gfredericks	TEttinger: it returns a string if there are no matched groupos
16:21	gfredericks	as I demonstrated above
16:21	TEttinger	yep
16:23	rue__	You have one not non-capturing group, which is returned :)
16:23	Krajsnick	How come (filter even? (range 1 10)) works without wrapping the even? predicate but you can't use javas Character/isDigit ? Does it have something to do with the function needs to be a clojure function?
16:23	elarson	I was trying to play with the clojure.data.csv module via a simple script with lein exec but I get a file not found exception when I require clojure.data.csv.
16:23	gfredericks	Krajsnick: yeah, java methods aren't first class in that way
16:23	elarson	I understand I'm not getting the right classpath configured, but I sort of assumed lein was taking care of adding standard clojure libs
16:24	Krajsnick	Ah okay, so as a rule of thumb when sending functions as arguments, wrap them if you're using java interop?
16:24	gfredericks	elarson: you have to add it to your :dependencies list
16:24	gfredericks	Krajsnick: yep
16:24	Krajsnick	thanks
16:24	elarson	gfredericks: is that something I can do in a single file? ie not via the project.clj
16:24	gfredericks	not with leiningen
16:24	elarson	this is just a single file I'm wanting to run as a script
16:25	gfredericks	leiningen is pretty project-oriented
16:25	gfredericks	if it has any single-file features I don't know about them
16:26	elarson	well, I found out about lein-exec http://koodo.wordpress.com/2013/11/09/shell-scripting-with-clojure/
16:26	lvh_	Does #"whatever" actually compile the regex? I'm having difficulty figuring out what kind of object it is
16:26	elarson	ah and it looks in that blog I might abel to include some deps
16:26	elarson	gfredericks: thanks for the help
16:27	gfredericks	elarson: yeah that looks possible
16:27	oetjenj	elarson, have a look at https://github.com/mtyaka/lein-oneoff ... might be what you are looking for, too
16:27	rue__	lvh_: It’s a literal, isn’t it?
16:27	elarson	oetjenj: great, will do'
16:27	gfredericks	lvh_: yeah I think it does
16:27	gfredericks	,(type #"foo")
16:27	clojurebot	java.util.regex.Pattern
16:28	lvh_	Ah, I didn't know about type :)
16:28	gfredericks	lvh_: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/LispReader.java#L439
16:28	gfredericks	the reader compiles it
16:29	lvh_	(def lines (with-open [inr (reader filename)] (->> inr line-seq (take 5)))) ;; IOException Stream closed java.io.BufferedReader.ensureOpen (BufferedReader.java:115)
16:29	gfredericks	,(type (read-string "#\"foo\""))
16:29	clojurebot	java.util.regex.Pattern
16:29	lvh_	Why does that close it already? I'd expect to get the first five lines.
16:29	gfredericks	lvh_: because take is lazy
16:29	hiredman	,(doc line-seq)
16:29	gfredericks	try adding (doall) after take
16:29	clojurebot	"([rdr]); Returns the lines of text from rdr as a lazy sequence of strings. rdr must implement java.io.BufferedReader."
16:30	lvh_	that'll be handy :) thanks :)
16:30	lvh_	(inc gfredericks)
16:30	lazybot	⇒ 39
16:31	lvh_	(why isn't it more like (swap! gfredericks inc)?)
16:31	gfredericks	then less people would type it
16:31	gfredericks	inc! would be nice maybe
16:32	lvh_	oh, by the way, this is a paredit question, but I seem to remember that there was a way to change the paren-type (so e.g. I have al ist and I want a vector)
16:32	gfredericks	I think there is an easier way but I always do it by making a vector before the list, slurping the list in, then splicing everything in the list into the vector
16:33	lvh_	yeah, that's what I do too
16:33	lvh_	except in the opposite order
16:33	lvh_	but otherwise equivalent I think
16:34	gfredericks	I would think the opposite order would be more steps
16:34	gfredericks	N slurps instead of 1
16:37	amalloy	paredit-wrap-square reduces the number of steps, compared to square+slurp
16:37	TEttinger	lvh_:
16:37	TEttinger	,(re-find #"(?<=(?:GET\|POST\|PUT\|DELETE) ).*(?= (?:HTTP))" "121.243.231.243 - - [20/Jan/2014:06:31:43 +0100] \"GET /images/nav-off-bg.png HTTP/1.1\" 200 310 \"http://www.python.org/\" \"Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1) AppleWebKit/535.7 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/16.0.904.0 Safari/535.7\"")
16:37	clojurebot	"/images/nav-off-bg.png"
16:42	dbasch	anybody using the latest LightTable in OSX? I can't get instarepl to work
16:43	elarson	this might be a dumb question, but does a hashmap have to use a symbol as a key? I'd like to do {"First Name" "firstname"}
16:43	llasram	~tias
16:43	clojurebot	tias is try it and see
16:43	Guest80042	dbasch: How is it failing? It works for me.
16:43	gfredericks	(inc llasram)
16:43	lazybot	⇒ 15
16:43	elarson	llasram: well I did try it and it failed, which is why I asked
16:43	gfredericks	llasram: my first thought was "ooh ooh I know that one!"
16:43	elarson	the error wasn't really clear
16:43	gfredericks	elarson: what was it?
16:44	dbasch	Guest80042: I try to evaluate anything and I get an exception: http://pastebin.com/HfwKqU8c
16:44	scape_	,{"one" 1}
16:44	clojurebot	{"one" 1}
16:44	elarson	gfredericks: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Parameter declaration missing
16:44	gfredericks	,(defn foo {"foo" 42})
16:44	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Parameter declaration missing>
16:44	TEttinger	elarson, hashmaps can be anything for keys, but usually you use keys for getting from a hashmap because they let you do ##(:key {:key :value})
16:44	lazybot	⇒ :value
16:44	gfredericks	elarson: like that? ^
16:44	scape_	no defn
16:44	scape_	just def
16:45	oetjenj	,({"First Name" "a name} "First Name")
16:45	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading string>
16:45	TEttinger	##({"key" :value} "key") also works
16:45	lazybot	⇒ :value
16:45	TEttinger	but not ##("key" {"key" :value})
16:45	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
16:45	Guest80042	dbasch: Sorry, don't know what's going on there.
16:46	seangrov`	dbasch: Just a guess http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8801142/sonar-build-fails-with-nullpointerexception
16:46	elarson	TEttinger: so that looks like I do need a symbol
16:46	seangrov`	Might need to upgrade your jre/jdk?
16:46	elarson	btw, here is what I was doing: https://gist.github.com/ionrock/8775341
16:46	TEttinger	keywords are functions that can take a hashmap, but other types can be used if you have the hashmap as the fn
16:46	gfredericks	elarson: keys can be anything
16:46	llasram	elarson: defn vs dev
16:46	scape_	don't use defn
16:46	llasram	def even
16:47	dbasch	seangrov`: I'm using build 1.7.0_09-b05, how about you?
16:47	Guest80042	dbasch: I'm using 1.7.0_51-b13
16:47	elarson	(inc llasram)
16:47	lazybot	⇒ 16
16:47	elarson	thanks llasram
16:47	llasram	np!
16:48	gfredericks	also thanks scape_ who pointed it out first :)
16:48	scape_	going to slink away now
16:48	scape_	:D
16:48	elarson	and thanks TEttinger confirming keys can be anything
16:48	gfredericks	,{{} {}}
16:48	clojurebot	{{} {}}
16:48	dbasch	I'll upgrade to the latest jdk7 and try again
16:48	arrdem	augustl: oh gods and you want to do a rust kernel... I should just watch this repo now :P
16:48	scape_	i think keys being actual keys is much faster as a lookup in a map-- i assume at least
16:48	gfredericks	"actual keywords"
16:49	scape_	thanks yes gfredericks
16:49	seangrov`	dbasch: javac -version => javac 1.7.0_21
16:50	scape_	gfredericks: my middle name is frederick and last name starts with a g :D
16:51	Guest96402	dbasch, seangrov`: The bug says it affects version 6 but not 7, so it'll be weird if that corrects the problem
16:51	dbasch	Guest96402: that didn't fix it
16:51	gfredericks	Scape Frederick Gorschtarch
16:51	scape_	ha
16:51	gfredericks	oh so the 's' in my nick must be fore "scape"
16:51	dbasch	Guest96402: the weirdest part is that the spinner doesn't stop after fetching dependencies
16:52	scape_	hah
16:52	gfredericks	g___ frederick s(cape_)
16:52	dbasch	I launch instarepl, it goes connecting... -> fetching dependencies... -> (nothing)
16:52	dbasch	but the spinner doesn't stop
16:52	seangrov`	dbasch: It's probably failing to start some nrepl project, and then it has to wait ~30s or so for the threads to finally exit, and it's not communicating it to you
16:52	Guest96402	Hmm, what happens if you do a lein repl in the project directory?
16:53	dbasch	Guest96402: this is not in any particular project
16:53	dbasch	leon repo works fine in all my projects
16:53	dbasch	lein repl
16:54	TEttinger	I have dbasch's problem whenever I use light table
16:54	oetjenj	elarson, btw you can easily turn string into keywords with (keyword "Some string"), in case you use String keys because you got them from parsed content or something similar
16:54	elarson	oetjenj: ah that is good to know
16:54	elarson	thanks
16:54	oetjenj	your welcome ;)
16:55	seangrov`	ibdknox: Where's the best place to get support for lighttable for dbasch and TEttinger? the ml?
16:55	rebcabin	,(keyword "what happens with spaces")
16:55	clojurebot	:what happens with spaces
16:56	lvh_	rebcabin: yeah I found this useful while interpolating some stuff from csv recently
16:56	lvh_	CSV keys contained gnarly things
16:56	TEttinger	rebcabin: ##(name (keyword "what happens with spaces"))
16:56	lazybot	⇒ "what happens with spaces"
16:56	TEttinger	interesting that it still stores it
16:56	llasram	rebcabin: Most Clojure core functions are very much "garbage in, garbage out"
16:57	gfredericks	keywords that don't appear in your source code are usually not a good idea
16:57	gfredericks	I wonder if that's why cheshire defaults to strings
16:58	amalloy	gfredericks: creating keywords is expensive too
16:59	lvh_	gfredericks: hm. so my use case is "get some data from a csv, and interpolate into this template many times (and then mail it to people)"
16:59	gfredericks	amalloy: oh interesting
16:59	lvh_	gfredericks: so my source code never sees the keywords, but the template and the csv both do (and obviously have to agree on which point to what data)
16:59	gfredericks	lvh_: okay so the template is outside your source code?
16:59	oetjenj	I just tried LightTable InstaRepl on my Mac and it throws several exceptions on the console... seems to something wrong with it, i have JDK 7 installed
17:00	scape_	oetjenj: might want to make sure jre is removed
17:00	dbasch	oetjenj: google is not helpful either, the only match I find is my own pastebin
17:01	oetjenj	well i am not using LT myself, i prefer sublime for small things and IDEA for more with a separate repl anyways
17:01	dbasch	scape_: an older version of light table worked fine for me, I updated to the newest and it stopped working
17:01	lvh_	gfredericks: Correct; I slurp it from a file
17:01	gfredericks	lvh_: what templating language?
17:01	lvh_	gfredericks: I don't really get to choose though because the interpolation lib insists on using :keywords
17:02	amalloy	i mean, i think it should default to strings anyway, for the reason you mentioned, but you also get a substantial speedup for using strings
17:02	lvh_	gfredericks: mustache, but I don't really care which one
17:02	lvh_	it's trusted source markdown; string interpolation would be totally fine if it supported named strings
17:02	scape_	I gave up on lighttable because I had to keep removing and reinstalling with some of the later versions. it was fun at first tho-- finally gave in to emacs ;)
17:02	scape_	sublime is a good middle ground tho
17:02	scape_	brb
17:02	gfredericks	lvh_: I think that feels close enough to using the keywords in your code
17:03	Guest96402	I'm pretty excited about lighttable. Not enough to use it for serious work, but it looks like a very solid foundation
17:04	oetjenj	LT REPL is driving me nuts, but that's just my preference i guess
17:04	dbasch	Guest96402: I was trying to set it up for a friend who doesn't want to use emacs, it doesn't work on his mac or mine
17:04	rebcabin	https://github.com/overtone/emacs-live‎
17:04	rebcabin	tuned for Clojur
17:04	rebcabin	Clojure* even
17:06	Guest96402	dbasch: I would suggest he try cursive for now. Haven't used it, but I hear good things about it, and it meets the not-emacs criterion.
17:06	oetjenj	even though emacs traditionally is somehow connected to list ;) i never managed to make myself comfortable in it, i am more of a vi guy
17:06	dbasch	Guest96402: I'll check it out
17:06	oetjenj	Guest96402, dbasch cursive finally works nice, at least in ultimate, haven't tried the community edition
17:07	oetjenj	but i'd assume it works the same
17:11	lvh_	I'm trying to produce a hierarchical count, so I'd like to end up with {:a {:b {:c 1 :d 1}}} from the 2-vec [:a :b :c] and [:a :b :d]
17:11	gfredericks	lvh_: that is totally possible
17:11	lvh_	I don't really know how to say "go down this map with these keys making thinsg as you go along"
17:11	gfredericks	update-in
17:11	Guest96402	update-in
17:11	lvh_	yay :) thanks
17:12	amalloy	&(reduce (fn [acc path] (update-in acc path (fnil inc 0))) '((a b c) (a b c)))
17:12	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException
17:12	amalloy	&(reduce (fn [acc path] (update-in acc path (fnil inc 0))) {} '((a b c) (a b c)))
17:12	lazybot	⇒ {a {b {c 2}}}
17:12	amalloy	&(reduce (fn [acc path] (update-in acc path (fnil inc 0))) {} '((a b c) (a b d)))
17:12	lazybot	⇒ {a {b {d 1, c 1}}}
17:12	amalloy	there we go
17:12	lvh_	so that is spelled (update-in map keys inc)
17:12	mrcheeks	,(inc amalloy)
17:12	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: amalloy in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
17:12	mrcheeks	heh
17:12	mrcheeks	~amalloy++
17:12	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
17:13	gfredericks	lvh_: and you use (fnil inc 0) so that it accepts nil the first time
17:13	amalloy	good effort, mrcheeks
17:13	mrcheeks	:-)
17:13	Bronsa	(inc amalloy) ;; there
17:13	lazybot	⇒ 83
17:13	gfredericks	(inc mrcheeks'-effort)
17:13	lazybot	⇒ 1
17:13	lvh_	gfredericks: oh, I guess I sort of excpected (inc) to return 0 maybe that's just silly :)
17:13	gfredericks	lvh_: ##(inc nil) is the more relevant call
17:13	lazybot	java.lang.NullPointerException
17:14	gfredericks	which is different from ##(inc)
17:14	lazybot	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: core$inc
17:14	lvh_	gfredericks: yes
17:14	gfredericks	lvh_: and even if it did return 0 that'd be wrong for your case
17:14	lvh_	okay, cool thanks :)
17:15	lvh_	gfredericks: err, derp, yes; I was htinking of how you'd do it in python, which involves defaultdict(int), so what actually happens is when you access the thing for the first time you get int() (== 0), and then you increment :)
17:16	gfredericks	aaaah right
17:16	gfredericks	rubby has that too
17:16	lvh_	but instead what happens here is that fnil takes a function and returns a function that ... well; I guess we can all read the docstring it's pretty clear :)
17:17	gfredericks	does anybody think a feature like that is bad for some precise reason?
17:17	lvh_	a feature like what?
17:17	gfredericks	maps that return default values
17:17	gfredericks	it'd be easy enough to do
17:18	gfredericks	just mix in a little ztellman...
17:18	lvh_	they have their use cases I think :)
17:18	lvh_	but maybe that's just because I like them for python; perhaps I am just completely missing how you'd otherwise write them in clj
17:19	oetjenj	don't maps already return a default value? :D
17:19	llasram	gfredericks: It breaks all kind of behavior, doesn't it? You have things "in" the map which aren't in the map `keys` etc
17:19	Guest96402	I've was thinking of something similar recently. The problem is how you deal with idioms like (into {} my-special-map)
17:19	llasram	fnil I think covers most of the behavior you'd actually want
17:19	gfredericks	llasram: Guest96402: yeah those are good points
17:20	gfredericks	it makes it feel more like a function than a data structure
17:20	llasram	Yeah. And I think it makes more sense for mutable structures, which is how you usually use the defaulting there anyway -- what's the default value when you mutate the value for a key which doesn't exist yet?
17:21	gfredericks	that applies just as well to immutable though
17:22	llasram	Does it? Oh, I guess maybe if you had some sort of updating protocol or something
17:22	llasram	Otherwise just getting a default for anything seems weird
17:22	llasram	My new standard for interface design decisions: I will avoid things which seem "weird"
17:23	lvh_	gfredericks: the reason I think it wouldn't make a lot of sense for clj is that to me, as a complete newbie, it feels like clojure tries very hard to have simple data structures and then a bunch of functions that do things with them
17:23	lvh_	whereas hey in python yes let's have another dict subclass
17:23	gfredericks	llasram: updating a mutable map still reduces to access + set; i.e., get + assoc
17:24	llasram	gfredericks: You and your "good points". Geez
17:24	gfredericks	clojurebot: python is <reply> yes let's have another dict subclass
17:24	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
17:24	llasram	clojurebot: python?
17:24	clojurebot	python is ugly
17:24	llasram	Aww
17:24	gfredericks	~python
17:24	clojurebot	python is "I think dropping filter() and map() is pretty uncontroversial…" — GvR
17:24	gfredericks	~python
17:24	clojurebot	python is "I think dropping filter() and map() is pretty uncontroversial…" — GvR
17:24	gfredericks	~python
17:24	clojurebot	python is (defmulti #^{:doc "docs for foo"} foo class)
17:25	llasram	It's in in there somewhere :-)
17:25	gfredericks	this is good reading
17:25	goodger	:(
17:25	gfredericks	~python
17:25	clojurebot	python is "I think dropping filter() and map() is pretty uncontroversial…" — GvR
17:25	AeroNotix	~@python
17:25	clojurebot	Excuse me?
17:25	AeroNotix	Well, I thought you'd give me them all then
17:25	llasram	Hah. Nice try :-)
17:26	llasram	I think the fact-chaining would make that tricky though
17:26	llasram	~amalloy
17:26	clojurebot	amalloy is the spotlight illuminating my dumb mistakes
17:26	llasram	Well, that one was probably direct :-)
17:27	lvh_	~lvh
17:27	clojurebot	Huh?
17:27	amalloy	i don't think there are any facts chaining from amalloy
17:27	lvh_	maybe one day I will be famous
17:27	llasram	amalloy: I thought I remembered one came up which you figured out went through like 3 hops. May be misremembering obvs
17:27	amalloy	clojurebot: lvh will be famous one day
17:27	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
17:27	amalloy	clojurebot: lvh \|will\| be famous one day
17:27	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
17:28	lvh_	fwiw I am writing a free introductory course on cryptography that I hope to be releasing in the next 2 weeks
17:28	lvh_	so maybe that will work
17:28	gfredericks	two-time pads!
17:28	gfredericks	the second-most secure cryptoscheme!
17:29	llasram	lvh_: You are a cryptographer?
17:29	gfredericks	clojurebot: a cryptographer is somebody who makes drawings and then hides them
17:29	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
17:29	lvh_	Hey, that was dutch, sort of.
17:30	lvh_	llasram: Yes, if that includes applied cryptography. I don't actually design ciphers.
17:30	Morgawr	clojurebot is dutch? :o
17:31	goodger	can't be
17:31	goodger	it didn't choke half to death on the g
17:31	lvh_	llasram: Sorry, I should rephrase: I don't design ciphers that I intend people to seriously use, or that I publish :)
17:31	llasram	Heh
17:31	lvh_	LVH is totally the best mode of operation.
17:31	Morgawr	goodger: true true
17:32	Morgawr	hghoodhgher*
17:33	llasram	lvh_: You totally had me going for a sec -- thought it must be one of those newer verifying block cipher modes
17:34	lvh_	llasram: Well, it actually is an AEAD mode.
17:34	lvh_	llasram: Overall, it's a pretty reasonable one too.
17:34	llasram	Interesting
17:35	lvh_	llasram: I also haven't published it because there's no reason you should be using it over GCM except maybe that GF(2**128) multiplications are really hard to do in constant time in software
17:36	llasram	It's an interesting topic!
17:37	Cr8	I have a highlight for "crypto"
17:37	gfredericks	I just saw an extremely minor typo in a clojure docstring. there's basically no practical way for me to fix it without wasting 5 peoples' time is there? :/
17:38	ivan	find more typos and make a bigger patch?
17:38	gfredericks	yep :(
17:38	gfredericks	maybe I should start a typos branch
17:40	llasram	I thought clojure/core had adopted a more expedited process for obvious doc fixes
17:40	gfredericks	maybe they did! that's why I asked
17:40	Bronsa	not really
17:41	llasram	I haven't tested it -- I just remember one of the cognitects saying something along those lines the last time I was around for an instance of The Great Patch Difficulty convo
17:45	ivan	gfredericks: https://www.refheap.com/31866/raw
17:45	gfredericks	ivan: nice
17:46	gfredericks	mine was s/and/an/ so would not be caught
17:47	amalloy	upto: almost as good a word as alot
17:47	gfredericks	amalloy: refers to a really tall thing
17:47	gfredericks	clojurebot: technomancy is the upto behind leiningen
17:47	clojurebot	In Ordnung
17:48	llasram	(inc gfredericks)
17:48	lazybot	⇒ 40
17:52	sobel	+1 typos branch
18:03	gfredericks	I'll accept pull requests ;-) https://github.com/fredericksgary/clojure/tree/typos
18:03	dbasch	Guest96402: oetjenj upgrading the clojure plugin to 0.0.6 fixed the lighttable issue
18:04	llasram	gfredericks: Even from people w/o CAs?!?!?!
18:04	llasram	~guards
18:04	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
18:04	gfredericks	llasram: oh that does sound sticky
18:04	oetjenj	dbasch, thanks
18:04	gfredericks	let's just say no
18:04	llasram	gfredericks: The die is cast -- your typo branch is the PR-accepting future of Clojure
18:04	llasram	Oh, or not
18:15	riz_	hi
18:17	riz_	what does it mean by: Trying to convince others to use Haskell is permitted between 0200 and 0500 UTC.]
18:17	riz_	is it a joke or something which i don't get?
18:19	llasram	There was an active member of the channel who went very pro-Haskell. That was an attempt at a compromise/joke
18:19	amalloy	wait, was? did callen/bitemyapp leave while i was on vacation?
18:19	llasram	I haven't seen him around
18:19	gfredericks	I haven't seen him for a couple days maybe?
18:19	pyrtsa	I think he left.
18:19	riz_	hey are you the guy i talked to other night?
18:19	gfredericks	$seen bitemyapp
18:19	lazybot	bitemyapp was last seen talking on #clojure 1 week and 5 days ago.
18:19	riz_	i can't remember the name
18:19	gfredericks	oh wow
18:20	amalloy	i saw him in #haskell last night
18:20	riz_	i was here at like 4 am cause i couldn't sleep
18:20	pyrtsa	He's active in #haskell.
18:20	riz_	so both haskell and clojure are functional
18:20	riz_	then what are the major differences?
18:20	riz_	is there something haskell can do that clojure can't?
18:21	dsrx	haskell has the power to turn you into a weenie like no other language can
18:21	deadghost	idk man
18:21	deadghost	there's js and ruby
18:23	pyrtsa	I'm kind of sad of how things went with him here. Yes, there was quite a lot of noise but actually a lot what he said makes sense, and with core.typed and possibly without being restricted to the JVM, Clojure could take steps in that direction.
18:23	gfredericks	pyrtsa: I'm curious what "how things went" means
18:24	llasram	riz_: Well, they're both Turing-complete :-)
18:25	pyrtsa	gfredericks: I don't know if "ignorant" is the best word but...
18:26	riz_	aren't most programming languages?
18:26	hiredman	I've had him on /ignore almost since he showed up, but I see lots of complaints in here, and else where about his behavior here
18:26	gfredericks	riz_: haskell is statically typed
18:26	llasram	riz_: Yeah, was a joke
18:26	riz_	ohhh
18:26	riz_	hehehe
18:26	gfredericks	hiredman: okay, I wasn't sure if there was some aspect that went beyond that, related to languages and such
18:27	llasram	riz_: statically typed, unhosted, pure functional. You get some of the best type-checking and type-based optimization in the industry
18:27	hiredman	to balance out all the complaints, I've seen non-regulars in #clojure twice defend him (or make gestures inthat direction) counting pyrtsa's "I'm kind of sad"
18:28	pyrtsa	:)
18:28	clojurebot	excusez-moi
18:28	SegFaultAX	amalloy: I had lunch with him on Thurs. He probably won't be hanging around #clojure much anymore.
18:28	SegFaultAX	Although still hacking Clojure regularly etc.
18:28	amalloy	SegFaultAX: it sounds like you murdered him
18:28	amalloy	just fyi
18:28	SegFaultAX	Well, ah.
18:29	gfredericks	amalloy: in a way that still lets him hack on clojure regularly
18:29	llasram	I'm not glad he's gone, but he wasn't always the most newbie-friendly voice
18:29	SegFaultAX	Considering he came to my office, I think my co-workers would have noticed something :)
18:29	riz_	you mean haskell is more efficient than clojure?
18:29	SegFaultAX	gfredericks: I guess I was the one who did all the hacking?
18:30	gfredericks	#murderjokes
18:30	pyrtsa	riz_: FWIW, for me, the biggest difference is that with Clojure, when losing context for a while, I tend to make lots of mistakes where I just forget to type some code somewhere. Like a function with 1 parameter too few. With Haskell, that can't easily happen.
18:30	llasram	riz_: JVM Clojure gets the JVM JIT, so no, not unilaterally for every algorithm, certainly not. It's just different trade-offs
18:31	SegFaultAX	Anyway, the point is he hasn't moved away from Clojure, just #clojure.
18:31	SegFaultAX	If you want more details, PM or DM on Twitter.
18:33	gfredericks	riz_: being "functional" is almost the only thing the two languages have in common
18:33	SegFaultAX	llasram: For Clojure in particular, I would think most things in Haskell are faster. For Java in general, that's probably not the case.
18:34	SegFaultAX	Clojure's overhead is significant.
18:34	pyrtsa	gfredericks: Persistent data structures could be another common thing, unless you count it as part of the definition of "being functional".
18:34	gfredericks	pyrtsa: good point
18:34	dnolen	SegFaultAX: people make claims w/ out benchmarks. Last I checked really fast Haskell code looks pretty weird. Same as Clojure.
18:34	hiredman	the think with a channel like #clojure, is it is a very mixed bag, some people here write clojure professionally and want to talk shop, some are involved in the dev of the language and want to talk about estoic bits of it, some are just trying to get "hello world" working
18:34	pyrtsa	Clojure's startup time is a pain. Haskell applications tend to start up very fast.
18:35	SegFaultAX	dnolen: It's just a guess, yea. But Clojure's overhead /is/ significant.
18:35	dnolen	SegFaultAX: so is idiomatic Haskell's
18:36	hiredman	the first and second crowds can appreciate "views", but when you are trying to help someone in the later case it is just a pain and being a dick
18:36	gfredericks	(inc hiredman)
18:36	lazybot	⇒ 36
18:36	SegFaultAX	dnolen: Sure, but Haskell is compiling down to something native. Clojure is compiling down to something with also significant overhead.
18:37	SegFaultAX	I don't have numbers or research to backup my guess. Just anecdotal experience.
18:37	dnolen	SegFaultAX: Clojure also compiles to something native due to the JVM.
18:37	riz_	sorry got disconnected
18:39	pyrtsa	dnolen: To a degree, Haskell optimization can be guided with rewrite rules that don't particularly complicate the application-level code. I enjoyed the way BOS explained it in the latter part of this presentation: http://vimeo.com/52141702
18:39	SegFaultAX	dnolen: I don't have an axe to grind here. If you're saying idiomatic Clojure is as fast or faster than Haskell based on your real-world experience, I'll accept that.
18:39	SegFaultAX	That hasn't been /my/ experience, or the experience of some others, but then I'm not at all an expert on this topic.
18:40	oetjenj	besides all the technical diferences i think (although i never did any haskell programming, yet) the biggest difference is that haskell tends to be as pure functional as possible while clojure happily lives with tradeoffs, based on what i'ved read... isn't that right?
18:41	SegFaultAX	oetjenj: Well in the case of JVM clj, there isn't an option. You couldn't make a purely functional JVM anything.
18:41	pyrtsa	oetjenj: That's my view as well. Though there are internal differences within both communities, of course. Whether you use bindings or pass arguments explicitly, for an example.
18:41	gfredericks	you could at the lang level
18:42	hiredman	SegFaultAX: you absolutely could
18:42	oetjenj	SegFaultAX, yes i am aware of that
18:42	SegFaultAX	hiredman: You absolutely could not. At least, not at the JVM level.
18:42	hiredman	the interop would just be terrible
18:42	SegFaultAX	The classloader is inherently side effecting and stateful, as a simple example.
18:43	hiredman	SegFaultAX: the haskell runtime is also full of side effects and state, what is your point?
18:43	gratimax	I'm pretty sure the biggest 'disability' clojure on the jvm has is being dynamic, and it is running on something optimized for java
18:43	oetjenj	in other words, even if you remove two tires from your car, you still don't have a motorbike ;)
18:43	gratimax	Haskell runs on something optimized for haskell
18:43	hiredman	rts(haskell runtime) is still written in C if I recall correctly
18:44	gratimax	I know there's projects to port clojure to the python vm for instance, but I don't know performance-wise if there's much difference
18:44	SegFaultAX	hiredman: In Haskell, the core side effecting code is very deep and generally not something you can or should touch directly in application code.
18:44	hiredman	https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Commentary/Rts
18:44	SegFaultAX	In JVM, the necessary side effecting code is very close to you.
18:45	hiredman	https://github.com/Frege/frege/
18:45	gfredericks	SegFaultAX: a lang can still be pure
18:45	oetjenj	i mean, actually writing a complete side effect free program isn't of much use anyways, is there?
18:45	SegFaultAX	hiredman: That last one is an interesting project. callen was telling me about it recently.
18:46	pyrtsa	oetjenj: No one's writing one, of course. ;)
18:48	SegFaultAX	gfredericks: Semantically pure? Perhaps. But you wouldn't be able to leverage anything about the underlying platform at all. Why even use the JVM then?
18:48	pyrtsa	oetjenj: To say it in Rich Hickeyan terms, Haskell (code) being side effect -free is just a way of saying Haskell programs are values.
18:49	gfredericks	SegFaultAX: dunno; but it's an option :)
18:49	SegFaultAX	I'll revise my previous statement to "You couldn't build a meaningfully useful pure language on the JVM"
18:49	oetjenj	pyrtsa, hehe
18:49	gratimax	pyrtsa: extend this by saying that haskell programs are actually composed IO monads, now you're getting somewhere
18:50	pyrtsa	gratimax: Exactly.
18:52	gratimax	SegFaultAx: you can't build a perfectly pure language that is useful, anywhere. Haskell uses io monads to get around this and stay 'mostly pure'. haskell-like languages do run on the jvm
18:52	hiredman	bbloom should jump in at some point about memory allocation being a side effect that happens everywhere, and haskell not being able to statically protect against oomes, and static types being only one of many useful tools, etc
18:52	gfredericks	SegFaultAX: also s/dunno/GC/
18:52	gratimax	If you really wanted to, you could write a haskell IO analog in clojure with 'no side effects'
18:53	gratimax	https://github.com/clojure/algo.monads/
18:53	gratimax	bam, pure clojure!
18:54	pyrtsa	algo.monads is quite hacky, though. Not too convenient to use.
18:55	AeroNotix	does doto throw away type hints?
18:55	SegFaultAX	gratimax: You're missing my point. To do anything useful on the JVM (even to use the stdlib) you have to admit side-effecting code all over the place.
18:55	amalloy	AeroNotix: wellllll, not any more than macros in general do. it sorta depends
18:56	gratimax	SegFaultAX: you can abstract that away to something haskell-like, as I mentioned before.
18:58	SegFaultAX	gratimax: For most of the standard library, you'd have to abstract it to the point of re-implementation. So why even use it?
18:59	gratimax	SegFaultAX: that was the whole point of clojure's immutable data structures, isn't it? all that was salvaged was strings and numbers, basically
18:59	gratimax	so why even have immutable data structures? you need to implement it again anyway
19:00	AeroNotix	amalloy: well all of my dotos seem to complain about the calls being unable to be resolved.
19:00	AeroNotix	amalloy: even if I type hint the first expression
19:01	SegFaultAX	gratimax: Um, no? That isn't the point of them. It isn't to hide stuff from Java, it's to give you alternative data structures with different semantics that are easier to reason about.
19:01	SegFaultAX	You can of course still call down to Java (and you frequently do, especially to leverage existing code)
19:02	gratimax	SegFaultAX: well, people have still done nice IO to the point of having it 'nearly pure'
19:02	gratimax	take ring for example. you write web apps as composable handlers, not using sockets and whatnot
19:03	dissipate	why does (and) result in 'true' and (or) results in 'nil'?
19:03	gfredericks	monoids!
19:03	oetjenj	iirc, clojure actually started out as a library of immutable data structures for java - at least i think recall rich saying that somewhere
19:03	AeroNotix	oetjenj: [citation needed]
19:03	gfredericks	dissipate: also (+) (*)
19:04	gratimax	you can argue, yes, ring isn't perfectly pure, because there's a run-jetty function, but it is still an abstraction of http servers without side effects
19:04	dissipate	gfredericks, that's bizarre. why??
19:04	lazybot	dissipate: Uh, no. Why would you even ask?
19:04	gfredericks	dissipate: or were you asking about nil vs false?
19:04	pyrtsa	dissipate: In general, the `and` and `or` macros do not return Booleans.
19:04	oetjenj	AeroNotix, i would if i could remember where i heard it, that's why i said if i recall correctly and not stated that as a fact...
19:04	SegFaultAX	gratimax: Ok, but you can't automatically hide the side effecting code of any random package. You might be able to do that for some or even most of the standard library, but certainly not 3rd party stuff.
19:04	dissipate	gfredericks, no, wondering why 'and' with no arguments evaluates to 'true' but 'or' with no arguments evaluates to 'nil'
19:05	dissipate	pyrtsa, they don't??
19:05	lazybot	dissipate: Definitely not.
19:05	pyrtsa	´(or 1 2)
19:05	pyrtsa	,(or 1 2)
19:05	clojurebot	1
19:05	dnolen	dissipate: he gave a hint with monoids
19:05	gfredericks	dissipate: also consider ##(concat)
19:05	lazybot	⇒ ()
19:06	technomancy	gratimax: run-jetty is not part of ring-core fwiw
19:06	gratimax	SegFaultAX: true. but most of the time there are clojure versions of these libraries that make you not think about side effects
19:06	dissipate	i don't get it but whatever. :O
19:06	SegFaultAX	gratimax: Most of the time? Wut?
19:07	SegFaultAX	Do you know how many packages exist in Maven Central?
19:07	gfredericks	dangit I chased somebody off
19:09	gratimax	SegFaultAX: yes, there are probably hundreds of java packages all doing http and web stuff. but there still exists a nice clojure analog
19:11	oetjenj	gfredericks, but the answer would have been quite easy, wouldn't it? :D
19:11	gratimax	SegFaultAX: I don't mean that you can definitely find a side-effect free version of every single java package. but for most high-level use cases there most likely exists something
19:12	gfredericks	oetjenj: is it? I'm not sure of a succinct thing except "monoids"
19:14	dnolen	gratimax: Haskell actually has similar problems as Clojure in this regard because of unsafe*, thus Safe Haskell.
19:15	gratimax	gfredericks: 'identity elements'
19:15	gfredericks	yeah
19:18	pyrtsa	gratimax: Actually... if you care about more than the truthiness of the result, then neither `and` nor `or` has an identity element.
19:19	pyrtsa	(and (and) x) ≠ (and x (and))
19:20	amalloy	well, and has a left identity and or has a right identity
19:23	tomjack	depends on your equivalence relation
19:23	gratimax	I think this is really in how and/or are implemented, in a perfect world they wouldn't take values other than booleans
19:23	pyrtsa	tomjack: I said "if you care about more than the truthiness".
19:24	tomjack	yeah :)
19:25	amalloy	gratimax: that's a haskell "perfect world", but in clojure it's pretty handy to be able to write (or x default)