#clojure – 2014-01-24

2014-01-24

00:00	rovar	it's best to not have dysfunctional bros
00:00	rovar	all drama
00:01	rovar	however, I'm afraid clojure is my bro, I don't share my bros
00:02	deadghost	dude man
00:02	deadghost	if you love your bro
00:02	deadghost	you gotta set your bro free
00:02	deadghost	unless you want to marry your bro
00:02	deadghost	then you need to ask for rich hickey's permission
00:02	akurilin	So, I love how ring will add both url and post data params into the params map, except you have to remember that you can't tell if something is a number or a string in a GET's URL param :(
00:03	akurilin	Do people end up using the two separate param maps to know when they need to parse for numbers and when they can assume the JSON got parsed correctly to a number?
00:03	bbloom	akurilin: form and url encodings are EVIL
00:03	bbloom	i can not tell you how many damn rails apps i've seen that just have params[...] with url, form, and json data all conflated
00:04	bbloom	then they scratch their heads for a month when they have a bool a number and a string and can't tell em all apart
00:04	guest1234	can't some bright clojurean fix this intractable 'form params' problem, once and for all?
00:04	bbloom	frankly, it makes a man wish for tcl :_P
00:05	deadghost	who is our hero
00:05	akurilin	bbloom: what kind of options do I have if I need to read the :id in the compojure route and query params? Doesn't sound like I have much of a choice, right?
00:05	guest1234	Heroes can run. I'm learning to walk.
00:05	bbloom	akurilin: i dunno, i haven't used compojure
00:05	akurilin	outside of redesigning the api to use all posts
00:05	akurilin	but then you're pooping on http methods
00:05	deadghost	wrong guest1234
00:05	deadghost	heroes can FLY
00:06	bbloom	http deserves pooping on for most things we try to do with http... and it's too damn complicated for the things that SHOULD be done with something like http :-)
00:06	deadghost	and breathe underwater
00:06	deadghost	and shoot laser beams
00:06	deadghost	like superman and rms
00:06	akurilin	I get that.
00:07	guest1234	how much of the damn web is genuinely, just getting damn form data from a to b. that's the entire 'healthcare' problem
00:07	guest1234	problem / industry.
00:07	guest1234	but that's another talk
00:09	guest1234	dead-ghosts can fly. and presumably breathe under water too?
00:09	deadghost	it's funny how many different frameworks need to be made for CRUD apps
00:09	guest1234	maybe they're all trying to resolve it the same <wrong> way.
00:09	deadghost	will we ever have one unified thing with skinnable syntax
00:10	guest1234	like with the magic of btc, just have data 'zap' from point A to B.
00:11	guest1234	magically show up where it needs to, without hassle or conflated, ill-formed nonsense
00:11	deadghost	I want to hug the internet
00:11	deadghost	wait no scratch that
00:11	deadghost	that sounds awful
00:11	guest1234	nope. it's logged.
00:12	deadghost	so what are you guys working on
00:13	deadghost	I'm herpaderpin a website to keep track of my lists
00:13	deadghost	compojure + enlive
00:14	guest1234	does anyone have the source for D. Nolen's Om ToDo. the source link, https://github.com/tastejs/todomvc/tree/gh-pages/labs/architecture-examples/om has some funky lookin' git jedi
00:15	guest1234	off this page: http://swannodette.github.io/todomvc/labs/architecture-examples/om/
00:15	deadghost	I have a friend that likes forking everything he uses
00:15	deadghost	in case stuff disappears one day
00:16	guest1234	that's a little creepy, and incredibyl helpful.
00:16	deadghost	I wouldn't say helpful
00:16	deadghost	because he doesn't have your package
00:17	guest1234	did he fork todo?
00:17	deadghost	read above^
00:17	deadghost	meaning no
00:17	guest1234	I guess there's plenty else to read through
00:18	guest1234	sorry. misread as fork anything that shows up on his page.
00:19	guest1234	as if stalking daily for any updates to grab.
00:20	guest1234	anyway, back to the hero that's going to fix FORMS and data integrity across the wire.
00:20	deadghost	godspeed
00:20	guest1234	if you could have that by tomorrow, TTThhhat be great. thanks.
00:27	akurilin	bbloom: actually I just realized why Parse.com uses POST for fetching and SO uses GET. The former has somewhat complex queries you can define, and so it requires nested datastructures, which you can't really do that well in the URI. SO on the other hand doesn't support complex queries, so it can get away with no nesting.
00:27	akurilin	So if I want nesting, I'm kind of screwed and need to POST it.
00:28	akurilin	I guess you can serialize a JSON object into the URI, but I don't know if that's just a recipe for sadness.
00:30	akurilin	Actually it looks like people do this.
00:30	akurilin	I don't know if it should make me sad or not.
00:32	dsrx	deadghost: websocket repl transport for clojurescript
00:33	deadghost	I'm only vaguely aware of websockets
00:33	deadghost	you lost me at "repl transport"
00:37	dsrx	deadghost: right now, browser-connected repls for clojurescript work with the usual iframe cross-page communication hackery which works... except you can't do it unless the page you'd like to run the repl on is served over something besides http (like a spotify application or chrome extension)
00:38	dsrx	er you can't do it if the page isn't served over http
00:39	deadghost	sounds neato
00:39	deadghost	I haven't had a chance to try clojurescript
00:39	deadghost	can that voodoo work with normal js
00:40	deadghost	or is it some clojurescript specific magic
00:40	egghead	deadghost: cljs is to js what clojure is to java
00:40	deadghost	that sounds stupidly amazing
00:42	deadghost	I'm pretty happy with just clojure in my life
00:42	deadghost	but a clojure for JS rocks my socks
00:42	deadghost	I'm not a huge fan of js you see
00:42	akurilin	Nvm, Parse actually does use GET, they URL-encode a json blob.
00:42	akurilin	Ugh guess I'm doing that
00:43	dsrx	deadghost: to be honest i'm not totally sure if it will work, i've implemented the CLJS and still have to do the CLJ side that gets piggiebacked to nrepl and be sure it "acts like" the standard repl enough that it will even work
00:45	dsrx	hrm i guess i should verify that i can actually use websockets in spotify >:D
00:46	deadghost	it's k, you can be our hero
00:46	deadghost	do a write up when you're done
01:02	andyf_	Wow, someone has been having fun maintaining the channel topic message
01:06	coventry	Anything obviously funky about this clojurescript code? I'm getting an assertion failure, "alts! used not in (go ...) block". Also, I get "can't recur here", if I use (go-loop) instead of (go (loop)). https://www.refheap.com/26844
01:10	dsrx	coventry: are you requiring the core.async macros?
01:10	dsrx	have to do it separately in cljs
01:11	coventry	dsrx: That was the problem. Thanks.
01:27	akurilin	Sanity check: I should be able to specify environ variables in project.clj's :profiles :uberjar :env, right?
01:33	andyf_	when one is using Leiningen and has intra-file dependencies using :require and :use, is there ever a valid reason for a file foo/bar.clj to have any namespace in it other than foo.bar?
01:34	andyf_	And as an edit to that question, I would guess that Leiningen has nothing to do with the answer to the question.
01:34	tomjack	no
01:35	noonian	i don't think you can do that because of how java expects your file paths to correspond to namespace (package) names
01:35	tomjack	there are examples in clojure of violations that involve using load instead of require
01:35	tomjack	clojure/core_*.clj
01:36	tomjack	etc
01:36	andyf_	tomjack: Yeah, I know Clojure implementation itself sometimes uses load, but I'd consider that the exception rather than the rule, from what I have seen
01:37	andyf_	But I am pretty sure that the implementation of require, use, and ns always look for a namespace foo.bar.blat in foo/bar/blat.clj, in some directory on your classpath.
01:37	tomjack	right
01:37	tomjack	so, no
01:38	tomjack	is there a sane way to add namespaces to edn?
01:38	andyf_	I am testing the Eastwood lint tool on some projects, and finding some placeholder files in the test directory with a namespace declared by ns that does not match the file path, and wondering whether I should make simple-to-understand error message for that.
01:40	egghead	pretty sure Cannot call method 'call' of undefined is the npe of cljs
01:41	andyf_	tomjack: You mean, enable edn to read namespace-qualified symbols?
01:42	andyf_	tomjack: At least the tools.reader implementation of an edn reader can read namespace-qualified symbols, so not sure if I understand the question.
01:43	dsrx	egghead: heh
01:44	tomjack	andyf_: yes. and keywords
01:44	tomjack	where "namespace" no longer means clojure.lang.Namespace
01:44	tomjack	..and data readers?
01:44	tomjack	nah
01:44	tomjack	well, yeah. the tag can be data-namespaced, but the var its bound to by data-readers will be clj-namespaced
01:44	dsrx	weird, i considered changing my nick to 'tomjak' on freenode today
01:45	andyf_	tomjack: I am not familiar enough with data readers to give any advice there
02:16	logic_prog	what browser does lighttable use for rendering?
02:17	logic_prog	I know lighttable users node.js
02:17	logic_prog	but it needs to use a browser for rendering -- what browser does it use?
02:19	xuser	logic_prog: chromium
02:20	logic_prog	https://github.com/rogerwang/node-webkit/wiki/How-node.js-is-integrated-with-chromium ?
02:20	logic_prog	or should I be reading something else?
02:21	xuser	yeah, node-webkit uses chromium, node-webkit is wat LT uses
02:22	xuser	s/wat/what/
02:30	fredyr	have you guys seen anybody doing cljs and node on the server side for web stuff?
02:31	logic_prog	xuser: nice, thanks!
02:31	logic_prog	fredyr: I have been wanting to, as a poor man's version of erlang
02:32	fredyr	erlang? in what way
02:41	jonathanj	are there any good reads about what core.async isn't?
02:42	jonathanj	coming from mainly a Deferred/Promise-based workflow, it's kind of surprising to me that core.async channels aren't a more common return value from libraries (i was looking at irclj)
02:43	tomjack`	does irclj use core.async now?
02:43	tomjack`	ah
02:45	tomjack`	go blocks seem reminiscent of promises
02:45	tomjack`	from the outside..
02:45	tomjack`	well, no
02:46	tomjack`	ok, "reminiscent". but promises "complect control flow and communication"
02:46	tomjack`	this quote is from the blog post about core.async, which I assume you've already read?
02:46	egghead	hmm, in om why might i get "Uncaught Error: No protocol method ITransact.-transact! defined for type cljs.core/Atom: [object Object]"
02:47	egghead	I thought atoms were perfectly fine things to be 'application state' and that you could use (transact! ...) outside of the react lifecycle to change it's state
02:47	tutysara	ddellacosta: I had tried fixing the issues with error response from provider, update the issue with comments, see if it is ok
02:49	tutysara	ddellacosta: , and for multiple provider thing changed the implementation to use a :provider-uri config instead of redirecting /login to the form to choose provider, updated that issue with comments :)
02:53	egghead	or... why might I be getting errors saying that part of my app state isn't a cursor?
02:53	dsrx	egghead: i think transact! accepts a cursor into the state, not the state itself
02:53	egghead	ya, I realized I could just use 'swap!' isntead of transact! outside of the react lifecycle, but now it's saying that things like (:thing state) isn't a cursor
02:55	egghead	i'm probably just misunderstanding something
02:56	egghead	I'm just trying to do (apply dom/ul nil (om/build-all! my-lis (:get-list-from state)))
02:56	egghead	but it's saying that the value in (:get-list-from state) isn't a valid cursor
02:56	jonathanj	tomjack`: no, i don't think it does; it talks about callback functions
02:56	jonathanj	tomjack`: i don't see a lot of libraries that have an async nature with an outward facing core.async interface (some don't even use core.async) and i'm wondering if i've missed what core.async isn't
02:58	ddellacosta	tutysara: okay, responded--thanks!
02:58	dwwoelfel	Is it common knowledge that the :or destructuring form is eagerly evaluated?
02:59	dwwoelfel	user> (let [{:keys [a] :or {a (println "hi")}} {:a 1}]
02:59	dwwoelfel	a)
02:59	dwwoelfel	"hi"
02:59	dwwoelfel	1
03:00	logic_prog	did the word complect exist before rich hickey?
03:00	logic_prog	did rich hickey just come up with a word complect
03:00	ddellacosta	logic_prog: yes, he explains that in one of his early talks in fact, if I recall
03:00	logic_prog	and the rest of the wold go: okay, we accept this world you've defined
03:00	dwwoelfel	Seems like a bug in core/destructuring, where it uses a get
03:00	dsrx	com·plect [kuhm-plekt] Show IPA verb (used with object) Obsolete . to interweave; intertwine. Origin: 1515–25; < Latin complectī to embrace, enfold, equivalent to com- com- + plect ( ere ) to plait, braid + -ī passive infinitive ending; cf. complex
03:00	ddellacosta	logic_prog: http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=complect
03:01	ddellacosta	ah, dsrx beat me to it
03:01	jonathanj	tomjack`: which core.async blog post are you refering to?
03:01	tomjack`	the one you almost certainly read
03:01	tomjack`	clojure.org I think
03:01	tomjack`	I think a Promise interface is pretty similar to event callbacks as far as the comment in the blog goes
03:02	tomjack`	but I have thought about that comment for some time and still am not sure I understand it :)
03:02	jonathanj	yes, it is
03:02	jonathanj	promises are just a callback abstraction
03:02	jonathanj	in the promise/deferred world though, whenever you do something async you return a deferred/promise
03:02	jonathanj	and as such, promises/deferreds permeate almost every aspect of your software
03:03	tomjack`	..so core.async isn't that, because it doesn't, uh, complect communication and flow of control
03:03	jonathanj	tomjack`: definitely, and i understand that part
03:03	tomjack`	I think I understand the question now
03:03	jonathanj	tomjack`: but why does irclj (to pick an example) not give me channels out?
03:03	tomjack`	does it even use core.async?
03:04	jonathanj	why do i have to put callbacks in?
03:04	jonathanj	tomjack`: not as far as i can tell
03:04	jonathanj	tomjack`: why would one not want to use core.async?
03:04	jonathanj	tomjack`: i feel like i've missed some crucial part of what core.async most definitely is not
03:04	tomjack`	I'd guess the explanation is probably more about the author than core.async
03:05	ddellacosta	jonathanj: are you wondering why more libraries don't use core.async, is that part of your question?
03:05	jonathanj	ddellacosta: yes
03:05	tomjack`	but if we assume that the author was familiar with core.async (and that all the new functions existed when irclj was written ?), it's an interesting question
03:06	ddellacosta	jonathanj: one simple answer is that it's relatively new, and a lot of libs haven't had time to adapt it to their needs--pedestal, for one, I recall being a perfect use-case--but they only started to integrate it this fall (I believe).
03:06	tomjack`	oh interesting
03:06	jonathanj	ddellacosta: hrm, weird
03:06	tomjack`	I can't wait to see what pedestal + core.async looks like
03:06	jonathanj	ddellacosta: i've been reading about it for quite a while (before i decided to find out what it was about)
03:06	ddellacosta	actually, I think that v.2 already integrates it
03:06	jonathanj	ddellacosta: but maybe my perception of time is a little... off.
03:07	ddellacosta	jonathanj: well, it's been proposed and in alpha for a while. But it was only in the latter half of last year that it was officially out, I believe.
03:07	dsrx	egghead: got context for all that?
03:07	ddellacosta	here's what I was looking for: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/pedestal-dev/e8MzUH4K-T0
03:07	jonathanj	so would a library that uses core.async (and exposes a core.async interface for users) return channels from functions that produce results asynchronously?
03:07	egghead	sure dsrx
03:08	ddellacosta	jonathanj: ^ you'll note that that post is from July, and it mentions that "Rich Hickey announced core.async a few weeks ago."
03:08	jonathanj	ddellacosta: okay, that makes sense; thanks
03:08	dsrx	afaik om/build and build-all will only accept a cursor, which is created by om/root and passed subsequently to your rendering functions
03:08	ddellacosta	jonathanj: np, hopefully that puts some of it in context.
03:09	egghead	dsrx: https://www.refheap.com/26863
03:10	tomjack`	"Messages which tell other things to change"
03:10	tomjack`	https://github.com/pedestal/pedestal/blob/9f7879a6a6fdd5805cb22155d5589a36ae775152/app/examples/walkthrough.clj
03:10	tomjack`	so I can't tell how core.async affects a typical pedestal user's application code
03:11	tomjack`	didn't find any core.async requires in files that looked like demo code
03:11	tomjack`	oh, the app-template is where to look I guess
03:11	ddellacosta	tomjack`: yeah, I'm not knowledgeable about how it works to say, I think that it's pretty heavily integrated into the codebase at this point though (last I looked at it)--so I think it's more that it provides the wiring for the underlying parts. I think that a Pedestal application developer wouldn't necessarily have much need to touch it, as Pedestal provides a pretty thorough FRP pattern itself on top of it.
03:12	tutysara	ddellacosta: thanks :) will work no the pull requests and for putting the workflow together I have to see how I can do it
03:12	ddellacosta	tomjack`: I could be wrong about that...that statement is based on the last time I played with Pedestal, a few months back.
03:12	egghead	dsrx: I don't see how it could not be a cursor, since it was passed to the om component
03:12	ddellacosta	tutysara: great, thanks for all of your contributions!
03:12	egghead	app is the thing passed to om/root
03:13	ddellacosta	tutysara: btw, I'm not positive that it makes sense to have one workflow for all providers vs. one per provider...I'll have to think about it. In some ways it makes sense to consider a single provider a single workflow, but I'm just not sure about it yet. So if you think one makes more sense than the other, let me know why--thanks!
03:13	tomjack`	ddellacosta: sounds reasonable
03:13	dsrx	egghead: oh hrm
03:13	tomjack`	I haven't looked at pedestal in a long time either
03:14	tomjack`	but it seems you're right that core.async is used quite a bit in pedestal itself
03:14	tomjack`	not sure why it's used in the walkthrough but not user code
03:14	tomjack`	maybe the walkthrough is for developers?
03:14	ddellacosta	tomjack`: yeah, I've gotta check it out again myself...along with hoplon and a few other things...always more to check out!
03:15	ddellacosta	tomjack`: huh, dunno--I wonder if that walkthrough is v.3 vs. v.2?
03:16	tomjack`	dunno, will wait and see. won't be using cljs for a long time :(
03:18	ddellacosta	egghead: I'm still figuring out how this all works, but I've had the same problem, and solved it by passing the whole data structure to the component and deconstructing it within the component code (rather than before I pass it in). I believe it has to do with the structures that can be validly used as a cursor (https://github.com/swannodette/om/blob/master/src/om/core.cljs#L243 for example).
03:19	ddellacosta	er, not sure if that code example is helpful
03:20	egghead	ddellacosta: what I don't understand is that it looks exactly like what dnolen is doing in his tutorial example
03:20	ddellacosta	egghead: which one? the to-do thing?
03:20	dsrx	most of the om examples and such pull out the state to be used with build-all before calling it
03:20	dsrx	egghead: yeah thats why i'm confused too
03:21	egghead	maybe because it is a nested structure or something?
03:21	egghead	I mean it's a map of keys to sometimes strings sometimes lists of other maps etc
03:21	egghead	ddellacosta: nah https://github.com/swannodette/om/wiki/Tutorial#wiki-your-first-om-component this one
03:22	ddellacosta	egghead, dsrx: as I said I'm still figuring it out, but I believe it has to do with how to-cursor works, which is what happens when you create a component: https://github.com/swannodette/om/blob/master/src/om/core.cljs#L387
03:22	dsrx	right, it doesn't seem like to-cursor is recursive (heh)
03:23	fredyr	egghead: are you updating your atom outside of the om lifecycles?
03:23	dsrx	egghead: what version are you on?
03:24	fredyr	egghead: bc then you replace the cursor with a plain atom
03:24	egghead	dsrx: latest
03:24	egghead	and ya fredyr
03:24	egghead	I think basically I have a larger structure {:foo [:a :b :c]} and that is a cursor but apparently [:a :b :c] is not?
03:24	egghead	it makes no sense
03:25	fredyr	a cursor is a cursor
03:25	fredyr	:)
03:25	dsrx	i don't think om/root ever actually swaps in a cursor to replace your state atom
03:26	egghead	fredyr: do you know what is wrong with my code? https://www.refheap.com/26863
03:26	egghead	i mean it'll work if everyone has full access to all the state i just want to know why it doesn't work
03:26	ddellacosta	dsrx: it explicitly does in root: https://github.com/swannodette/om/blob/master/src/om/core.cljs#L442
03:26	egghead	like if instead of (:supervisors state) I just say state like ddellacosta suggested
03:26	egghead	but that feels lame
03:29	dsrx	ddellacosta: i see it creating a cursor from the dereferenced state of the atom provided to it (which is then passed onto the render fns), but i don't ever see it updating the atom itself unless i'm missing something
03:30	fredyr	egghead: can you show the om/root code for creation, as well as the atom updates
03:30	fredyr	egghead: bc i don't think the code you posted contains the problem
03:30	dsrx	this is the first time i've really dug deep into om so i very well might have no idea what i'm talking about :D
03:30	dsrx	the first time i read om source code i didn't know what an atom was
03:31	egghead	sure thing fredyr
03:31	ddellacosta	dsrx: that's because you would be doing the updating yourself, using transact! or update!
03:32	egghead	fredyr: om root creation: https://github.com/eggsby/warden/blob/master/src/cljs/warden/core.cljs#L17
03:32	fredyr	egghead: also, i don't think you should update the atom outside of om, but use transact! or update!
03:32	egghead	swap updating https://github.com/eggsby/warden/blob/master/src/cljs/warden/net.cljs#L19
03:32	egghead	fredyr: the whole point of my use case is that I want to keep the ui state in sync with an external resource
03:33	egghead	so I kind of have to do it outside of the react component
03:33	fredyr	egghead: sure, but if you look at dnolen's examples, that's usuall done by setting up a channel inside of the will-mount of a component
03:33	fredyr	egghead: where you have access to the cursor
03:34	egghead	hmm
03:34	fredyr	egghead: https://github.com/swannodette/om/blob/master/examples/counters/src/core.cljs#L43
03:34	fredyr	egghead: something like that
03:36	egghead	i'll try kicking off the polling stuff inside of the will mount and using set-state! or update! instead of swap!
03:36	egghead	thanks fredyr
03:36	fredyr	np, let us know it you get anywhere
03:40	quizdr	why do I need to writing something like #(vector %2 %) rather than #([%2 %])? I know #() cannot be nested, but this is not a nested #(), or there another reason?
03:40	dsrx	quizdr: #(vector %2 %) desugars into (fn [x y] (vector y x))
03:40	fredyr	quizdr: its bc of how #() gets expanded
03:40	clgv	quizdr: because of the definition of the reader macro #()
03:41	dsrx	,(fn [x y] ([x y]))
03:41	quizdr	so my erroneous would just get expanded as (fn [x y] [y x]) ?
03:41	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval25$fn__26 sandbox$eval25$fn__26@1d290d1>
03:41	fredyr	#(%) -> (fn [x] (x)), not (fn [x] x)
03:41	clgv	quizdr: it expands to a function call and ([]) does only make sense with integers as in ##([4 5 6] 1)
03:41	lazybot	⇒ 5
03:41	clgv	quizdr: no. (fn [x y] ([y x]))
03:42	fredyr	,(macroexpand-1 '#([%2 % 1]))
03:42	clojurebot	(fn* [p1__52# p2__51#] ([p2__51# p1__52# 1]))
03:43	quizdr	i see
03:43	fredyr	,(macroexpand-1 '#([%2 %1]))
03:43	clojurebot	(fn* [p1__78# p2__77#] ([p2__77# p1__78#]))
03:43	fredyr	quizdr: there's an extra parenthesis
03:43	clgv	,(read-string "#([%2 % 1])")
03:43	clojurebot	(fn* [p1__106# p2__105#] ([p2__105# p1__106# 1]))
03:44	clgv	fredyr: it is not an actual macro ;)
03:44	fredyr	hah
03:44	quizdr	clgv macroexpand is quite useful for seeing inside syntax in general even for non macros
03:45	clgv	quizdr: not more useful then read-string, since that is where the non-macro is happening ;)
03:45	clgv	*non-macro magic
03:46	quizdr	,(read-string "(#(%) 5)")
03:46	clojurebot	((fn* [p1__131#] (p1__131#)) 5)
03:47	quizdr	(inc clgv)
03:47	lazybot	⇒ 11
03:47	quizdr	(+ clgv 10)
03:47	lvh	Hello! How can I get the number of days in between two local-dates in clj-time?
03:47	clgv	quizdr: but macroexpand-1 is the tool when writing macros
03:48	quizdr	(* clgv clgv)
03:48	clgv	:P
03:48	fredyr	~clgv
03:48	clojurebot	Excuse me?
03:49	clgv	fredyr: what did you expect as return?
03:49	CookedGryphon	lvh: Something like (in-days (interval date1 date2))
03:50	fredyr	clgv: some witty comment?
03:50	lvh	CookedGryphon: But interval doesn't work on two dates; because it considers them themselves intervals, not times
03:50	clgv	:P
03:50	lvh	CookedGryphon: so I also need a way to tack "noon" onto a date
03:50	CookedGryphon	lvh: how are you making the dates?
03:51	lvh	CookedGryphon: clj-time appears to do midnight, but even with my limited understanding of calendaring I'm pretty sure that's fragile unless you only use tz-agnostic types everywhere
03:51	lvh	right now, (local-date); but they will be read from a CSV file after
03:51	CookedGryphon	and it does, behind the scenes
03:52	CookedGryphon	if you put the tz data in, it'll use it. If you don't, I'm not sure what you want it to do?
03:54	lvh	CookedGryphon: When I use date-time, I appear to be getting Intervals in UTC (ISO timestamps ending in Z)
03:55	lvh	CookedGryphon: How do I tack on "noon" to something? I mean I guess I could do something like (apply local-time ((juxt year month day) my-date))
03:56	lvh	ehh except of course with the times added :)
03:56	CookedGryphon	lvh: I might be wrong, but I don't think it will make any difference
03:57	CookedGryphon	if both the dates are in the same timezone (utc) it'll surely just do the arithmetic on the date field and all will be well, I don't see the need to shift it to noon
03:57	CookedGryphon	and if you did, what good it would do
03:58	TheDude_	Hi, I'm new to clojure and trying to rename an uploaded file with a long timestamp, but for some reason the code is not working
03:58	CookedGryphon	the interval noon to noon is the same as the interval midnight to midnight
03:58	CookedGryphon	unless there's something fundamentally broken
03:59	CookedGryphon	especially as doing it at 00:00:00 is used all through the examples for jodatime/clj-time
03:59	lvh	CookedGryphon: It's probably a nitpick. If you have half an hour, I highly recommend http://pyvideo.org/video/1765/blame-it-on-caesar-what-you-need-to-know-about-d
04:00	TheDude_	Thanks, am checking it out
04:00	TheDude_	What would you recommend as a unique identifier for renaming an uploaded file?
04:00	CookedGryphon	lvh: yeah, but I trust jodatime/clj-time people have thought about this a lot more than I have, so trying to trick it by moving things to midday sounds like a bad idea...
04:01	lvh	CookedGryphon: In that talk, the author makes a cogent argument about exactly why it shouldn't ever be midnight.
04:01	lvh	CookedGryphon: (The answer is that not every midnight time instance exists.)
04:01	CookedGryphon	lvh: does this come up in your dataset?
04:02	CookedGryphon	have you tried putting them into jodatime
04:02	lvh	CookedGryphon: I have no idea, it's still being constructed. It does come up in real datasets, though.
04:02	CookedGryphon	i would be very surprised if it didn't work it out, or at least make a reasonable compromise
04:02	TheDude_	Hi, does anyone know of a lib to handle file uploads and renaming the uploaded file?
04:03	lvh	CookedGryphon: (There's people that can't check into certain Alitalia flights because they were born on the wrong day; that particular problem is related to Europe/Rome and someone being under the mistaken impression that doing everything in the same timezone would make it sort of work out.)
04:03	fredyr	clojurebot: clgv \|is\| (read-string "((.)$(.))")
04:03	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
04:04	fredyr	~clgv
04:04	clojurebot	clgv is (read-string "((.)$(.))")
04:04	CookedGryphon	lvh: lol, yeah, it is a bit of a minefield!
04:04	clgv	,(read-string "((.)$(.))")
04:04	clojurebot	((.) $ (.))
04:04	clgv	:P
04:04	lvh	CookedGryphon: Anyway, times and calendars are incredibly complicated, and unfortunately not even Zulu time is as easy as we like to think it is (still has leap seconds)
04:05	clgv	clojurebot: forget clgv \|is\| (read-string "((.)$(.))")
04:05	lvh	also leap days
04:05	clojurebot	I forgot that clgv is (read-string "((.)$(.))")
04:05	fredyr	point free owl
04:05	clgv	~clgv
04:05	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
04:05	fredyr	:(
04:05	lvh	Anyway, what I want is for something to tell me the number of days between 2014 01 01 and 2014 01 15.
04:05	clgv	clojurebot: clgv \|is\| usually very busy
04:05	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
04:05	clgv	;)
04:06	TheDude_	Does anyone know of a good tutorial on file uploads? Am new to clojure and this one issue is throwing me sideways. Rest ref routing, crud, sessions easy peasy.
04:08	srruby	How do I create a global atom? Thanks.
04:10	noonian	(def my-atom (atom {})) ?
04:10	srruby	noonian: Thanks!
04:10	noonian	np
04:11	TheDude_	Hi, is anyone here avaliable to answer a question?
04:12	lvh	TheDude_: Lots of people. Probably not me.
04:13	noonian	just ask and if anyone knows the answer they will likely answer it
04:14	TheDude_	Thanks. Have made good progress with clojure but stuck on 1 issue, uploading a file via ring and renaming it either with a long timestamp or maybe userid + sessionid
04:14	TheDude_	Been trying to crack this nut for 2 days :)
04:17	noonian	where are you having trouble?
04:17	clgv	TheDude_: isnt a file upload just a HTTP POST request?
04:18	clgv	TheDude_: I am not sure about the browser side, but if it is just an HTTP POST request on your server you can just access the input stream of the request to get the contents of the file
04:19	TheDude_	Yes, I can get a file and save it to a folder, however where I'm having trouble is renaming the file with a unique identifier such as long timestamp or session userid
04:19	clgv	when you save it to a folder you specify the filename and thus can use an arbitrary one
04:20	quizdr	ok, i'm looking at a decurrying excercise. i think i must be brain dead. how is it possible to peer inside a curried function to see what arguments it is using internally?
04:21	TheDude_	I found some code, am trying it now by generating a random number via java
04:21	quizdr	or even to query the number of arguments a fn expects
04:21	TheDude_	Does anyone have an idea how I would append or prepend that unique random number to the uploaded file name?
04:22	clgv	TheDude_: can you upload a minimal gist of your file upload code so that we have some context to help you?
04:23	clgv	appending to strings is easily done via ##(let [existing-string "my-file.txt"] (str "prefix." existing-string ".postfix"))
04:23	lazybot	⇒ "prefix.my-file.txt.postfix"
04:24	clgv	if you want to append before the ending you can just split the string at the dot
04:24	clgv	the clojure.string namespace is what you want then
04:25	TheDude_	Thanks guys, I will try that right now. My first time to IRC, how do I post the gist here?
04:26	ddellacosta	TheDude_: just paste it into refheap.com or gist.github.com (or whatever), and paste the link to that gist/refheap into the IRC window.
04:27	quizdr	ah, of course, use the curried function as a recursive function
04:29	TheDude_	Thanks, here's the sample code point where I'm at now https://www.refheap.com/26875
04:29	d11wtq	Hi guys. Looking for some input on DSL style choices in Clojure.
04:29	d11wtq	https://gist.github.com/d11wtq/8594436
04:30	d11wtq	I'm writing (for learning only) a cron style scheduler, that distributes work across a number of nodes. It has a schedule file that is written in Clojure, as in that Gist.
04:30	d11wtq	Does that DSL look like you'd expect, or would you abstract further/less with macros?
04:30	TheDude_	The first definition is handle-upload, not handle-upload-original
04:31	d11wtq	And would you put parentheses around each schedule entry, so it's more logically grouped?
04:31	d11wtq	(Sorry, I don't really know a better place to ask for peer review... stackoverflow not good for that)
04:31	CookedGryphon	d11wtq: definitely less with macros
04:32	CookedGryphon	d11wtq: I would make it data
04:32	quizdr	d11wtq programmers.stackexchange often boasts itself as a peer review site
04:32	CookedGryphon	d11wtq: for an amusing explanation of why, see this talk by stuart halloway http://vimeo.com/77199361
04:32	quizdr	actually there is this new beta site at stackexchange, fyi: http://codereview.stackexchange.com/
04:33	d11wtq	CookedGryphon: Yeah, so the angle was I going for there was, for example, avoiding Keywords and doing somethng like (every 5 minutes (println "Boo"))
04:33	d11wtq	But I don't like that.
04:33	d11wtq	Thanks for your suggestions on the other stackexchange sites!
04:33	d11wtq	I always forget about them :)
04:33	alandipert	d11wtq: looks cool to me, but yeah macros (if they get big) can be hairy. the only part i might change is to feed it functions instead of exprs for :every and :at; these functions could take the schedule as an arg perhaps
04:34	CookedGryphon	yeah, you should avoid macros if at all possible
04:34	clgv	~gist
04:34	clojurebot	http://gist.github.com/
04:34	clgv	the bot knows ^^
04:34	clgv	but refheap as good as well
04:36	alandipert	d11wtq: also if you feed it functions isntead of exprs, defschedule doesn't need to be a macro anymore
04:36	d11wtq	Yeah, the macro will (obviously) ultimately construct a function that calls other functions. I think some level of macro usage makes writing something like a schedule cleaner though, so you don't need to wrap everything with lambda.
04:36	alandipert	(not that macros are bad, i personally think they rule and i write them all the time)
04:37	d11wtq	It's funny hearing people say to avoid macros. It wasn't that long ago (before I started in Clojure) that I read Let Over Lambda. That puts things in perspective. A little defschedule macro is nothing :P
04:37	CookedGryphon	d11wtq: DSLs are very rarely a good idea. You make it so people can't compose what you're doing easily, and obscure it so that if people want to do anything out of the ordinary, they will probably need to know something about what your macros are generating
04:37	CookedGryphon	and heaven forbid there's ever a case you didn't think of ahead of time
04:37	alandipert	d11wtq: imo clojure is a tighter/better designed system than CL, and macros are scarcer because they aren't needed to stitch together the language as much
04:38	tomjack`	a project for which a CL'er I know thought essential, in clojure, ended up needing virtually no macros
04:39	tomjack`	er, "for which a CL'er I know thought _macros_ essential"
04:40	d11wtq	Thanks guys. I'll do this with functions alone and finish off by providing a convenience macro. I think that's the way to go (and the way I'd naturally TDD this).
04:42	CookedGryphon	d11wtq: I really recommend that talk I linked to, which would suggest storing your schedule as data where possible. That way other tools can read your data, say you wanted to make a separate app to show you upcoming events rather than scheduling them, or allow you to reconfigure them graphically
04:42	CookedGryphon	that would be easy with data
04:42	CookedGryphon	hard with functions, and extremely difficult with a dsl
04:42	CookedGryphon	http://vimeo.com/77199361
04:42	CookedGryphon	there you go again
04:42	TheDude_	Would it be possible to get some feedback on this code https://www.refheap.com/26879
04:43	d11wtq	http://vimeo.com/77199361 thanks
04:43	TheDude_	Am trying to rename an uploaded file
04:44	steckerhalter	how do I convert long to a byte array? I have found this where the question outlines how to do it with Java, but I'm not sure how to translate that in to Clojure: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/19791255/how-to-convert-byte-array-to-long-without-using-java-nio
04:45	CookedGryphon	steckerhalter: I would recommend a ByteBuffer instead of an outputstream if you know the length of your data vaguely
04:45	CookedGryphon	and don't need to stream
04:46	steckerhalter	CookedGryphon: ok, any examples how to use it for this purpose?
04:46	CookedGryphon	then you just do (doto (java.nio.ByteBuffer/allocate 8) (.putLong 123) (.putLong 321)) etc
04:47	CookedGryphon	and then .rewind to go back to the start of the bytebuffer if you want to overwrite, or read out one thing at a time
04:48	CookedGryphon	and look at the docs for how to get a byte array out of that
04:48	steckerhalter	thanks
04:48	CookedGryphon	.array i think
04:48	noncom	anyone using twitter-api, can show an example of a restful statuses-update call? what will be the :params?
04:49	CookedGryphon	steckerhalter: np, hope that's enough info to get you started
04:50	ddellacosta	TheDude_: you need to take a look at ring's multipart-params namespace: https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring/wiki/File-Uploads
04:51	ddellacosta	TheDude_: http://ring-clojure.github.io/ring/ring.middleware.multipart-params.html
04:53	TheDude_	Thanks ddellacosta, am checking that right now
04:53	ddellacosta	TheDude_: try reading through some of the examples that exist first, because your code doesn't really seem to reflect how ring/compojure works. Google "file upload with ring/compojure" and you should find some good examples.
04:56	ddellacosta	TheDude_: or at least, I'm not sure what's happen with all the functions that you are including from the pgapp.util namespace; could be they are doing the heavy lifting.
04:58	TheDude_	I got it working with file name as is and to a dynamically created directory for user
04:58	TheDude_	But I prefer to save em all in one folder with a unique identifier in the file name and store that in the db
04:59	TheDude_	I'll try a search with ring compojure, since I'm new to clojure not so familiar with all the plumbing in the various libraries
04:59	TheDude_	SQL Crud, views, sessions, all easy peasy, file upload and manpilating how file is name, where saved, etc, bit challenging :)
05:00	ddellacosta	TheDude_: ah, I see. I think the problem with your example is just that it's hard to see what stuff like upload-file and gallery-path are doing.
05:00	TheDude_	The functions in the utils namespace just supply the folder name where to save the file
05:00	TheDude_	gallery-path is just a reference to the actual folder to store
05:00	ddellacosta	TheDude_: it would probably be useful to put that in the refheap next time so people can see what they are returning and how they work.
05:01	TheDude_	upload file I myself am confused :) I don't see it in my utls file
05:02	ddellacosta	TheDude_: if you are just getting familiar w/Ring and Compojure definitely scan through the examples of argument de-structuring and read up on how the request map works--and you may get some of a sense of how it is by simply dumping out the request itself in your code, to start. That can be useful if it's not clear what is getting passed where.
05:02	TheDude_	Oh I got it, upload-file is a reference in the [noir.io :refer [upload-file resource-path]]
05:03	ddellacosta	TheDude_: ah, sorry--I see that referenced in the require form now, I missed it.
05:03	TheDude_	How long do you think it typically takes a newbie adpoting clojure from standard 00 langs like ruby or coldfusion?
05:03	TheDude_	lisp is def a diff paradigm, enjoying the journey so far
05:03	AeroNotix	so my co-worker is trying to set up cider, when opening a cider-jack-in repl and then loading code into it, it complains it cannot find classes. Printing out the class path suggests that it's not picking up the project at all.
05:04	ddellacosta	TheDude_: in that case, take a look at the noir docs: http://yogthos.github.io/lib-noir/noir.io.html#var-upload-file. I would suggest maybe leaving noir off at first and doing it via ring...just so you get how ring works at first.
05:05	TheDude_	Is lib-noir created by yogothos?
05:05	ddellacosta	TheDude_: re: how long it takes? If you've done ruby or python and are familiar with wsgi or rack, then you should get a sense of how ring works pretty quickly.
05:06	TheDude_	Yes it seems to work same way as middleware
05:06	ddellacosta	TheDude_: lib-noir is maintained by yogthos, but grew out of code from the-framework-formerly-known-as-noir by Chris Granger
05:06	ddellacosta	TheDude_: er, not just yogthos I guess
05:06	TheDude_	yogothos is the man, he's been v helpful
05:08	TheDude_	I think the key here is reading up the docs and getting more familiar with the plumbing
05:08	TheDude_	I'm just a week into it so far, looks v promising
05:08	ddellacosta	TheDude_: yep, definitely agree--I think you'll feel a lot more comfortable with it once you've gotten through Ring/Compojure docs, especially (if you want to do server-side web stuff).
05:09	TheDude_	I'm mostly doing server side stuff, about 99%
05:09	ddellacosta	TheDude_: and I definitely recommend looking at the codebase for those two projects as well, they are clean and well written, and the ring architecture itself is simple and logical.
05:10	TheDude_	Are you doing web dev stuff or you have a diff use case?
05:11	ddellacosta	TheDude_: I do web dev with Clojure, yep.
05:12	ddellacosta	TheDude_: but there are a lot of folks using Clojure in a lot of different domains.
05:12	TheDude_	Using any framework or you write your own
05:13	ddellacosta	TheDude_: mostly just Compojure, with various libs here and there. I haven't yet found a framework that is as useful as simply composing libraries together.
05:13	TheDude_	Yeah, I like the simplicity of just putting together some libraries
05:13	fredyr	speaking of server side web in clojure, whats the way to setup user account logins and such, with email verification?
05:14	TheDude_	Thanks for your help, calling it a night for now. Goodnight and again thanks.
05:15	ddellacosta	TheDude_: cheers, good luck! :-)
05:15	ddellacosta	fredyr: I've built two systems which do that, and they both have required a fair bit of code slinging, unfortunately. :-(
05:15	fredyr	ddellacosta: too bad
05:15	ddellacosta	fredyr: but, the one I built with Friend was a bit simpler. For that project, I used mailchimp + friend.
05:16	ddellacosta	fredyr: I mean, it was a lot of code compared to how I used to set up Rails w/Devise back in my RoR days. But, then again, I had to use Rails. ;-)
05:16	fredyr	haha right
05:16	fredyr	yeah, i guess i'm comparing to how i would've done it with django
05:17	ddellacosta	fredyr: the other way I did it was an even more customized version which uses safeguard (my company's lib: https://github.com/diligenceengine/safeguard)
05:17	AeroNotix	so my co-worker is trying to set up cider, when opening a cider-jack-in repl and then loading code into it, it complains it cannot find classes. Printing out the class path suggests that it's not picking up the project at all.
05:17	ddellacosta	fredyr: yeah, I think that friend is the closest thing we've got to anything rails or django could give us (not knowing what is possible with django, but I assume it is easier)
05:18	ddellacosta	AeroNotix: is he starting it up in the project directory? I've only started up cider by starting a repl in a separate project dir, then connecting to that, which always works nicely for me.
05:19	ddellacosta	god, that safeguard read me is f*cking terrible
05:19	ddellacosta	forgive me for saying so boss. ;-)
05:21	ddellacosta	fredyr: I've actually been meaning to write some sort of "get-going-quickly" thing for friend which wraps up some of the functionality that you get with something like devise in Rails.
05:22	ddellacosta	fredyr: I should add, there is also going the Java route--there are wrappers for stuff like apache shiro I think
05:22	ddellacosta	fredyr: https://github.com/inventiLT/Pocheshiro
05:22	ddellacosta	fredyr: it's just...very Java-y
05:46	muhoo	i love that there's an oath-clj and a clj-oauth library, which are different but seem to do the same thing
05:47	steerio	at least there's a different word in both (if that's really oath there)
05:47	steerio	in both = in each
05:47	steerio	i can't english
05:52	katox	is there a simple way in sider to run (macroexpand-1 'form) instead of default (macroexpand-1 form)?
05:57	katox	what do I do now is to expand all macros from the top level form to get to the proper level - or - just copying the stuff into the repl, adding pprint macroexpand-1 and quote, that seems silly
06:05	tim__	what is the difference between '(use 'a.b)' and '(:use a.b)'?
06:10	katox	tim__: the second is the form used in ns macro, the first is the actual call
06:11	tim__	Thanks
06:11	katox	tim__: np, that said, use is somewhat obsolete now that require has :refer option
06:13	tim__	thats a lot of help, i'm very new to clojure.
06:18	Morgawr	,(int 1.999999999)
06:18	clojurebot	1
06:18	Morgawr	,(int 1.999999999999999999999999)
06:18	clojurebot	2
06:18	Morgawr	welp
06:19	Morgawr	https://gist.github.com/tshauck/8591809 <-
06:22	hyPiRion	Morgawr: well
06:22	hyPiRion	,1.999999999999999999999999
06:22	clojurebot	2.0
06:23	Morgawr	,1.999999
06:23	clojurebot	1.999999
06:23	Morgawr	I see
06:23	Morgawr	still fun
06:23	arcatan	even clojure knows that 1.999... = 2
06:25	locks	nothing is true, everything is permitted
06:25	Morgawr	but then how come (apply + (range)) doesn't return -1/12? :D
06:27	hyPiRion	because range isn't infinite
06:29	hyPiRion	,(doall (range (- Long/MAX_VALUE 1000) Double/POSITIVE_INFINITY))
06:29	clojurebot	#<ArithmeticException java.lang.ArithmeticException: integer overflow>
06:32	AeroNotix	org.apache.commons.io.IOUtils where does this package/class live? Do I need to download it?
06:33	alew	I find it very curious that (take 2.5 x) returns 3 elements instead o f2
06:34	alew	,(take 2.5 (range 5))
06:34	clojurebot	(0 1 2)
06:34	hyPiRion	AeroNotix: add [commons-io/commons-io "2.4"] to your dep vectory
06:35	AeroNotix	hyPiRion: cheers
06:37	TEttinger	),(take 2.4 (range 5))
06:37	TEttinger	,(take 2.4 (range 5))
06:37	clojurebot	(0 1 2)
06:37	TEttinger	seems to round up
06:37	alew	If you look at the implementation
06:38	alew	it's actually just dec'ing each iteration
06:38	alew	and checking if positive
06:38	alew	so you get down to 0.4
06:38	alew	Still seems like odd behaviour
06:39	TEttinger	rand-int can take a fraction or float param too. it's even weirder
06:40	TEttinger	,(frequencies (repeatedly 1000 #(rand-int 2.5)))
06:40	clojurebot	{2 201, 1 368, 0 431}
06:41	TEttinger	note how 2 shows up about half as frequently as the others
06:41	alew	what the fuck..
06:47	TEttinger	alew, that probably has to do with just dividing (rand) by the arg to rand-int
06:48	TEttinger	or multiplying?
06:49	CookedGryphon	or it could be that int is truncating, doing a floor
06:49	CookedGryphon	so 0 and 1 buckets are both twice as big as the 2.5 bucket
06:49	hyPiRion	CookedGryphon: yeah, rand-int is essentially just (int (* n (Math/random)))
07:18	lvh	Hi
07:19	lvh	is there a way to tell group-by what to put items into
07:19	lvh	I want them also sorted by (f elem), not just grouped by.
07:22	CookedGryphon	(into (sorted-map) (group-by f coll))?
07:23	CookedGryphon	or sorted-map-by
07:23	CookedGryphon	as your keys are already the values you want to sort by
07:25	hyPiRion	I think lvh means that the lists inside the maps are sorted
07:25	lvh	nope, CookedGryphon had it right
07:25	lvh	the keys of the map have to be sorted
07:26	lvh	is there some kind of convention for a memoized function and its unmemoized variant?
07:26	lvh	Sorry, I mean for the names of them.
07:26	CookedGryphon	lvh, i usually call the unmemoized variant blah*
07:26	lvh	And then (def blah (memoize blah*))?
07:29	CookedGryphon	lvh: yeah
07:30	CookedGryphon	I think I've seen it in a few other libraries too
07:30	CookedGryphon	only issue with that
07:30	CookedGryphon	is that the def there isn't going to pick up the docstring from blah*
07:30	CookedGryphon	and the arglist
07:31	CookedGryphon	not sure what to do about that other than manually attach the metadata
07:35	hyPiRion	lvh: we do alter-var-root'ing in Leiningen. Consider doing that if you never use the unmemoized version
07:46	john2x	can I 'unload' a namespace I use/refer/required in the repl?
07:57	noidi	,(doc remove-ns)
07:57	clojurebot	"([sym]); Removes the namespace named by the symbol. Use with caution. Cannot be used to remove the clojure namespace."
08:02	locks	,(doc doc)
08:02	clojurebot	"([name]); Prints documentation for a var or special form given its name"
08:12	lvh	Hi
08:12	lvh	is there a more efficient "intersection?"? Maybe just intersection is already doing what I want
08:12	lvh	Basically I have a 2-set and an N-set; if either element is in the N-set, give up
08:13	lvh	I think the way to spell that is (if (seq (intersection s1 s2)))
08:13	llasram	lvh: You can do way better than that
08:13	llasram	If you know s1 is smaller than s2,
08:13	llasram	(if (some s2 s1) ...)
08:13	lvh	llasram: Nope. The N-set starts out empty.
08:14	lvh	llasram: Maybe I should explain what I'm trying to do
08:14	lvh	I'm trying to solve a hotel-pairing optimization problem
08:14	llasram	Maybe :-)
08:14	lvh	I've figured out how to produce candidate pairs in terms of decreasing preference
08:14	alandipert	check each element w/ contains?
08:14	lvh	if either of the people in the candidate pair is aready assigned, obviously I can't assign them again
08:14	lvh	so, I'm keeping a set of already assigned people.
08:15	lvh	Does that make sense?
08:15	lvh	(That's the big N-set. It obviously starts empty.)
08:15	lvh	maybe that still means some, though.
08:16	llasram	Totally. And my suggestion still holds -- I just made it overly-strong. And you can always generalize. The important part is that you only care that there is an intersection vs the content of the intersection
08:16	lvh	because it doesn't actually matter if the set is bigger
08:16	lvh	right?
08:16	lvh	right
08:16	lvh	llasram: Thanks!
08:16	llasram	np!
08:16	hyPiRion	lvh: as far as I understand, you can just do (not-any? #(contains? s2 %) s1)
08:17	hyPiRion	well heck, llasram's solution is way better. I'll go away now.
08:17	llasram	hah
08:17	llasram	Actually I'll go away now!
08:17	llasram	That'll show ya
08:17	lvh	actually, rethinking my algorithm, it may be necessary to actually have the intersection anyway
08:18	hyPiRion	I guess I am terrified of nil and write code to defend against them at any momemt.
08:18	lvh	hmmm, maybe not, because I have every combination
08:18	lvh	I need a whiteboard
08:18	alandipert	some is o(n) worst case though, vs. just using 2 contains? checks
08:19	hyPiRion	alandipert: not if you know that s1 contains 2 elements only
08:19	lvh	yeah, I can guarantee they're only pairs.
08:19	lvh	because they come from (combinations all-users 2)
08:20	alandipert	hyPiRion: oh, right! i had my s1 and s2 backwards
08:24	lvh	are nested loop/recurs okay?
08:25	hyPiRion	lvh: I would recommend to split the function up into more functions if that happens
08:25	hyPiRion	But it's doable, sure, just a bit convoluted :)
08:25	lvh	I'm having a hard time making function names sane
08:25	lvh	(defn pair-least-unmatched-days-within-subgroup)
08:26	lvh	is there a refactoring thing for emacs that understands clj projects
08:26	lvh	that can rename function names?
08:26	CookedGryphon	lvh clj-refactor
08:26	CookedGryphon	is probably the closest thing
08:26	lvh	oooh!
08:26	CookedGryphon	you can do nice things like rename file which will update all the references to your namespace too
08:27	CookedGryphon	and unwind/wind threaded expressions
08:27	lvh	awesome
08:27	CookedGryphon	but mainly I use it for shifting namespaces around
08:27	lvh	there's a few things I'm writing that I'm pretty sure can be rewritten with reducers
08:27	CookedGryphon	if you open a new .clj file, it'll fill out your ns declaration for you too which is nice
08:31	alew	CookedGryphon: thanks for the tip
08:32	lvh	yep
08:32	lvh	mind blown.
08:32	CookedGryphon	if you think that's good, wait till I get round to updating latest-clojure-libraries
08:33	CookedGryphon	my first foray into elisp, which unfortunately doesn't work at the moment thanks to the nrepl->cider thing
08:33	CookedGryphon	for looking up and inserting teh latest version of a thing into your project.clj, then uses pomegranate to load it into your running repl with no restart if you want
08:42	katox	another dozen or so hours lost on a dynamic binding
08:43	katox	reminds me dependency injection - it feels good at first ;)
08:55	lvh	hey
08:56	lvh	... wait, I just figured it out.
08:56	lvh	Sorry :D
09:16	steckerhalter	it seems that using a ByteBuffer and then doing .putInt in a map does not operate on the original ByteBuffer? the ByteBuffer stays empty at least
09:18	andyf_	map is lazy. Try doseq around things that you want for side effects
09:19	steckerhalter	andyf_: ok, will do
09:20	andyf_	katox: binding and dorun/doall - 2 things that often go well together
09:22	katox	andyf_: true enough, this time nil crept in sometimes though
09:45	mikerod	empty? is a fn; not-empty? is not a fn; not-empty is a fn ;= fn naming fail
09:45	afhammad	what am I missing: I am requiring [monger.core :as mg] within a namespace, however get this: java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate monger/core__init.class or monger/core.clj on classpath
09:45	afhammad	I have this in my project dependencies: [com.novemberain/monger "1.7.0"]
09:46	AeroNotix	any httpcs to recommend?
09:46	AeroNotix	http-kit/aleph?
09:47	mikerod	maybe `not-empty` was named like that, to make people hate it and just use `seq` instead
09:50	gfredericks	mikerod: not-empty? would suggest it's a predicate which returns a boolean, which would not be true
09:50	gfredericks	,(not-empty {:a 2})
09:50	clojurebot	{:a 2}
09:51	gfredericks	similarly we have some instead of any?
09:51	gfredericks	,(some #(when (pos? %) (inc %)) [-2 -1 0 1 2])
09:51	clojurebot	2
09:52	mikerod	gfredericks: that's fair enough, but it should be a predicate that is analogous to `empty?`
09:52	gfredericks	presumably rhickey disagrees
09:52	mikerod	some, is useful to not be a predicate; it can serve as a "get first" fn
09:52	CookedGryphon	ugh, midje
09:52	CookedGryphon	sorry, that was meant to be qualified with a complaint :P
09:53	quizdr	some can return more than just true or false, therefore it is not a predicate
09:53	CookedGryphon	midje isn't reloading when i change my source, just when i change the test file
09:53	CookedGryphon	any ideas?
09:53	mikerod	I'm just coming from the standpoint of helping some people write some clj code. They don't quickly accept `seq` as a "not empty" check. They understand "empty?" of course, but then they always get confused when it comes to "not-empty" - no ? mark.
09:53	mikerod	I meant, new people to clj.
09:53	mikerod	anyways, just a little nit pick really.
09:54	gfredericks	clojure is a constant pile of confusion and surprises to new people
09:54	mikerod	:P
09:54	mikerod	fair enough
09:54	afhammad	gfrederick: yes it is
09:55	gfredericks	docstrings are often helpful
09:55	gfredericks	it's nice that they're so integrated
09:55	gfredericks	rather than having to google to find them
09:56	gfredericks	I think I had the idea of curating a list of clojure gotchas before
09:58	gfredericks	,(doc not-empty)
09:58	clojurebot	"([coll]); If coll is empty, returns nil, else coll"
09:58	jcromartie	somebody help me decipher net.cgrand.reload
09:58	gfredericks	does anybody have a solution for cleaning up resources associated with a ring response after the inputstream has closed?
09:58	jcromartie	where do the ::deps metadata come from? do I have to add that to the ns myself?
09:59	jcromartie	the documentation in the README here is clearly insufficient https://github.com/cgrand/enlive
09:59	jcromartie	it just says call (net.cgrand.reload/auto-reload ns)
09:59	llasram	gfredericks: I just got a PR merged into ring which allow using the CollReduce protocol instead of a seq of strings
09:59	llasram	You can reify that protocol with your own setup/cleanup surrounding the actual reduce behavior
09:59	gfredericks	llasram: I'm using cheshire; is there a way to combine those?
10:00	gfredericks	I guess if I serialized the top-level array myself...
10:00	llasram	gfredericks: I may have misunderstood. Do you have public code, or more details?
10:01	llasram	Ooops -- gotta scrum. bbiaf
10:01	gfredericks	k
10:06	gfredericks	llasram: it's not public; I'm currently using piped-input-stream to start another thread that uses cheshire.core/generate-stream
10:07	gfredericks	I'm having trouble figuring out how CollReduce is useful at all, much less for my particular use case
10:07	gfredericks	I must be missing something
10:08	clgv	where is piped-input-stream from?
10:08	gfredericks	ring.util.io
10:10	gfredericks	I had the impression that pjstadig's scoped library could help with this but then I read through it this morning and I don't think that's true
10:11	mmitchel_	stuartsierra: I'm looking at using your component lib for a new web app. Would you consider it to be stable enough for a prod app? Also, do you know who might be using it?
10:11	clgv	anyone used graphstream from clojure, yet? is it easy to use for visualization?
10:11	mmitchel_	stuartsierra: oh well, i see the README - alpha, beta etc :)
10:11	stuartsierra	mmitchel_: It's quite simple, so yes I consider it stable. I am currently using it on a large client project.
10:11	mmitchel_	nice
10:12	stuartsierra	Where "stable" means "doesn't have any obvious bugs."
10:12	mmitchel_	It does look quite simple +1
10:12	stuartsierra	But I still reserve the ability to change the public API between 0.x versions.
10:17	shep-home	Is there a way of telling if putting onto a core.async channel will block?
10:17	tbaldridge	shep-home: no, but you can make sure it never blocks
10:18	tbaldridge	shep-home: and you can use alt! with :default (or timeout) to do something else if it tries to block
10:18	shep-home	tbaldridge: thanks. I was thinking of something like a webservice that gets a request and puts it into a channel
10:19	shep-home	it could be preferable to return an HTTP busy code right away, and not do the work
10:19	shep-home	I think this is called backpressure, but I'm still learning my way around :-)
10:20	tbaldridge	shep-home: yeah, use a channel with a larg-ish buffer and then do (alts!! [[c val]] :default :busy)
10:20	tbaldridge	that'll instantly return :busy if the channel is full
10:20	shep-home	Yeah, that makes sense. I was looking at put, but couldnt see how that would help
10:20	shep-home	thanks!
10:20	AeroNotix	any httpcs to recommend?
10:22	llasram	gfredericks: Yeah, you'd need to change your code so that it somehow produces a "collection" of strings instead of writing to an input stream
10:30	andyf_	stuartsierra: I didn't look thoroughly, but does tools.namespace or any other lib you know implement a check that source file names and namespace symbols in ns forms are consistent with each other?
10:31	andyf_	stuartsierra: And if not, would such a thing be a useful addition to tools.namespace?
10:31	stuartsierra	andyf_: I'm not sure I understand the question. If ns forms don't match their files, Clojure won't even load them.
10:31	andyf_	stuartsierra: But someone can create them and get no errors
10:32	CookedGryphon	andyf_: in emacs clojure mode you can do (clojure-update-ns) which will replace it with the appropriate namespace
10:32	andyf_	stuartsierra: I am testing Eastwood on many projects, and sometimes I run across oddball things like this. They can be hard to debug the exceptions that get thrown
10:32	CookedGryphon	and clj-refactor automatically fills in the right one when you open a file
10:32	gfredericks	llasram: what's the advantage over a lazy seq?
10:33	stuartsierra	andyf_: Sounds like something for a linter like Eastwood to check, then.
10:33	andyf_	I am planning on adding an easy-to-understand message: Hey, this file contains a namespace foo.bar, but it should be bar.baz based on its name.
10:33	andyf_	stuartsierra: Oh, it will. I'm just asking if tools.namespace is a reasonable home for a function that finds such things or not.
10:34	stuartsierra	andyf_: Not sure. I'll think about it.
10:34	hipsterslapfight	express : node :: xxx : clojure ... is there an xxx?
10:35	andyf_	I have read an article about someone in academia who took a C lint tool commercial, and the crazy things they found out in the wild in real C code. I am starting to get a tiny idea of 1% of the stuff that they must have come across :-)
10:35	tim__	are there any tools like checkstyle / findbugs / pmd etc available for clojure?
10:36	andyf_	tim__: I do not know exactly what those tools do, but you may want to look at kibit and Eastwood, both on github
10:38	llasram	gfredericks: You can have set-up / tear-down code :-)
10:46	tim__	@andy_f thanks, they are exactly what i'm after.
10:47	gfredericks	llasram: where does the teardown code go? the edge-case is when the socket is closed so the whole thing doesn't get sent
10:53	ambrosebs	dnolen: do I have to maintain my own cljs.env atom when analyzing CLJS forms? And should I always initialise it by loading core.cljs with my env as cljs.env/compiler ?
10:53	llasram	gfredericks: The client socket? So like, your service is streaming a chunked response, and the client just closes the socket as some point?
10:53	jita	Is IntelliJ good IDE for clojure programming ?
10:55	saolsen	jita: with the cursive plugin it's pretty great
10:55	saolsen	http://cursiveclojure.com/
10:55	jita	saolsen: there is la clojure too how does it compare to that ?
10:55	saolsen	I use it a lot, especially if I have to do anything with java interop.
10:55	blrm	saolsen: i haven't seen that, looks nice. i just knew of la clojure
10:56	saolsen	This one is newer and I think they built it because of some frustrations they had with la clojure
10:56	saolsen	I haven't used la clojure though.
10:56	locks	for some reason I was under the impression that cursive and la clojure were by the same people
10:57	locks	or at least people in common?
10:57	saolsen	they might be
10:57	saolsen	I don't really know who's behind it
10:57	locks	they changed the name to break backwards compat and etc
10:57	jita	saolsen: cool, and when you are not working for java interop what do you use? emacs ;)
10:57	locks	this is mostly guessing tho
10:57	saolsen	but they're really good, super responsive on twitter and github issues and seem to ship a new version every week or so
10:58	saolsen	I bounce back and forth between emacs and cursive.
11:00	llasram	saolsen: Have you tried eclim?
11:01	saolsen	llasram: nope, never heard of it
11:01	llasram	saolsen: https://github.com/senny/emacs-eclim
11:01	llasram	Essentially runs Eclipse as a background service, then lets Emacs talk to it
11:04	saolsen	interesting
11:04	saolsen	is there clojure integration?
11:04	jita	saolsen: do you use cursive plugin or IDE?
11:04	saolsen	the ide isn't out yet
11:04	saolsen	just the plugin
11:04	saolsen	and it's still in alpha so you have to add their repository
11:05	jita	saolsen: does it work with intelliJ 13ce?
11:05	saolsen	the site covers how to get set up
11:05	saolsen	jita: yep
11:05	jita	saolsen: thanks
11:06	llasram	saolsen: Oh, no. I misunderstood. It's definitely for writing Java from Emacs, which is for some reason is what I'd taken you to be talking about
11:10	lvh	my tests appear to have hit an infinite loop.
11:10	lvh	how do I stop them? I'm using run-tests in the repl
11:10	arrdem	mash C-g?
11:11	lvh	Doesn't appear to be working.
11:11	clgv	Ctrl+C in lein repl
11:11	kzar	C-c?
11:11	kzar	oo too slow
11:11	lvh	nREPL connection closed: connection broken by remote peer
11:11	lvh	I think that means java gave up
11:11	lvh	maybe?
11:12	clgv	lvh: killall -9 java ;)
11:13	cark	or more mashing on the box itself
11:14	lvh	hehe :)
11:14	lvh	if anyone has a second to give me some style advice, I think https://github.com/lvh/pairing/blob/master/src/pairing/core.clj#L81 can use plenty
11:14	lvh	pair-days is what I'm calling and what's doing what appears to be an infinite loop
11:14	lvh	maybe it's actually just really really slow
11:15	Anderkent	well, I don't see pair-days ever going out of the loop
11:15	Anderkent	it always recurs
11:16	lvh	ah, yes, that would be bad.
11:16	Anderkent	pair-subgroup-days seems ok, one thing I'd do is put pairs and paired on separate lines in 0 and 1 cases, so that it looks exactly like the 2 case
11:16	Anderkent	but it's a very minor issue
11:17	Anderkent	in pair-days you just want to check if you have any subgroups left, I guess?
11:17	lvh	yeah; I added the (if (seq
11:18	jstew	If I have a collection [[1 2] [3 4]], what's a nice way to split them by column so that they're [[1 3][2 4]]? My solution is ugly, and I know there's an elegant way.
11:18	lvh	it appears that I always get [[] []] back from it though
11:19	Anderkent	this is another super minor thing, but I prefer to have the terminating case first, since it's so short. saves scanning down to see what the other case is
11:19	Anderkent	compare https://www.refheap.com/26994
11:19	AeroNotix	https://gist.github.com/AeroNotix/eecf8d63aa307381bfff anything more idiomatic than this?
11:19	Anderkent	lvh: do you know if pair-subgroup-days works? :P
11:20	lvh	Anderkent: Nope, writing tests
11:20	clgv	AeroNotix: there was a lib for byte array and such mentioned on the ML some time ago
11:20	AeroNotix	clgv: I was looking for something like this, decided to just start it myself.
11:21	Anderkent	AeroNotix: what's it trying to do, split a byte array into two around the first occurence of c?
11:22	AeroNotix	Anderkent: like string/split for byte-arrays
11:22	Clome	is there a way to work with java primitives? A java fun returns an int, but in clojure I get an Integer object. Is there a way to tell clojure that I want a normal int.
11:23	Anderkent	why use BAIS instead of areduce?
11:23	clgv	Anderkent: +1
11:24	Anderkent	Clome: you can tag the arg sometimes. But in general I'd accept boxed stuff most of the time
11:24	Anderkent	if you really need performance, look into https://github.com/ztellman/primitive-math ?
11:26	Clome	Anderkent: A method in java returns an int, and then I use this int in a (case ) form which returns always the default, since integer is an object and it test the memory reference?
11:27	Anderkent	Clome: that doesn't sound right, it should automatically unbox it if your case is int-based
11:28	Anderkent	,(case (Integer. 0) 0 :yes :no)
11:28	clojurebot	:yes
11:28	Anderkent	Clome: ^
11:29	Clome	Anderkent: it is not int based, since in the casess I use static java int fileds, but they too get boxed in Integers. Any easy solution?
11:30	Anderkent	Clome: I don't follow. If your cases are ints (literal numbers) then it should be int based. can you post your code?
11:31	clgv	Clome: no. the problem is that case needs compile time constants
11:32	Anderkent	('case' has three modes of operations - either ints, where it uses numerical dispatch, or keywords (where it's objects identity), or other stuff (object hashes)
11:32	Clome	Keyboard/KEY_W here is an case example, which is a normal int but in clojure gets boxed in Integer
11:32	clgv	Clome: the symbol which resolves to the static integer is no compile time integer constant
11:32	Anderkent	Ah. That won't work, you need constants. Use condp
11:33	clgv	Clome: there was a question on the ML recently. where someone solved it via writing a macro on top of case such that static constants are resolved
11:34	Anderkent	clgv: does marking a def as ^:const make it work with case?
11:34	clgv	Anderkent: never tried
11:34	Clome	Can`t I for example say something like this (def ^:const ^int key-w Keyboard/KEY_W), so that clojure dos not box this int?
11:34	lvh	so, there's a thing I don't get
11:34	lvh	map is lazy right? but when I put it in a repl expr, I see the full result
11:34	lvh	is it lazy, but being instantiated for the repl?
11:35	Anderkent	lvh: the map gets realized when the repl prints it
11:35	Anderkent	if you do (def result (map ...)) it won't be realized
11:35	Anderkent	Clome: alas, I don't think you can
11:36	clgv	Clome: well, easy enough to try and see
11:36	Anderkent	I think case won't even try to resolve symbols
11:36	Anderkent	i.e. if you say (case x foo :yes) it's checking if x == 'foo
11:36	clgv	macroexpand-1 on the case-form might be handy
11:36	Anderkent	,(cse 'foo foo :yes :def)
11:36	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: cse in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
11:36	Anderkent	,(case 'foo foo :yes :def)
11:36	clojurebot	:yes
11:36	clgv	ah right^^
11:37	Anderkent	so you can't use symbols to refer to their values
11:37	Clome	ok, thanks
11:37	clgv	you cant use lists either if I remember correctly. but vectors work since they are in the same equality partition
11:38	clgv	,(case '(1 2) (1 2) :yes :no)
11:38	clojurebot	:no
11:38	clgv	,(case 1 (1 2) :yes :no)
11:38	clojurebot	:yes
11:38	Anderkent	Clome: in general. Don't use case unless you really need the performance of javas switch
11:38	clgv	,(case 2 (1 2) :yes :no)
11:38	clojurebot	:yes
11:38	clgv	^^
11:39	Anderkent	I suppose writing a macro that evaluates case args then produces (case) with literals shouldnt be that hard?
11:39	clgv	Anderkent: humm I think that statement is not true. case is compiled to jvm code using hashing
11:39	Anderkent	clgv: not for int or identity matching afaik
11:39	Clome	why did (case 2 (1 2) :yes :no) returned :no?
11:39	clgv	I'd think switch is a primitive jvm byte code op, is it?
11:39	borkdude	what is the fastest/easiest (not necessarily best) way of building a crud web app with datomic as storage nowadays?
11:39	clgv	Clome: it did not ^^
11:39	Anderkent	I'm like 80% sure that (case x 1 :yes :no) compiles to switch
11:39	clgv	,(case 2 (1 2) :yes :no)
11:40	clojurebot	:yes
11:40	Clome	sorry, I meant :yes
11:40	Clome	why is that
11:40	clgv	Anderkent: switch with hashing I think
11:41	Clome	should not (1 2) return an error, since 1 is not a function
11:41	Clome	what am I missing here
11:42	Anderkent	Clome: case is a macro, it gives special syntax. In there, a list means 'one of these elements'
11:42	clgv	Clome: no. in `case` that's a notation fur alternative values that are matched
11:43	Clome	oh right, sorry
11:44	borkdude	I have used case exactly once
11:44	borkdude	until now
11:45	borkdude	(* amount (case time :month 1 :quarted 3 :year 12)) something like that
11:45	Anderkent	clgv: so it's either TableSwitch or LookupSwitch depending on whether your keys are sparse or not
11:46	Anderkent	I can't excactly find where it's emited in the compielr though. ..
11:47	clgv	Anderkent: just compile a function with `case` and use a decompiler to look it up
11:49	borkdude	Ah, the amount of users has grown with about 250 since I last paid attention to it
11:49	borkdude	here
11:51	Anderkent	clgv: https://www.refheap.com/27009 yep, tableswitch
11:54	eyepatch	I'm looking at (take-while #(<= % 4000000) (fib))) I understand the whole bit except for # and % I'm not familiar with those characters. Where could I look them up in docs?
11:55	eyepatch	Obviously you could tell me what they mean in a few seconds. I'm guessing % is a replacement for some unknown value in a predicate that doesn't know what i'll work on and # will return the value of % when the predicate is true.
11:56	eyepatch	But I'd be surprised if this was the last time that I ran into unfamiliar characters.
11:56	borkdude	eyepatch it is the notation for anonymous functions
11:56	borkdude	,(#(+ % 10) 1)
11:56	clojurebot	11
11:56	borkdude	eyepatch it's just fancy notation for ((fn [x] (+ x 10)) 1)
11:56	llasram	,`#(expando! %)
11:57	clojurebot	(fn* [p1__52__53__auto__] (sandbox/expando! p1__52__53__auto__))
11:57	llasram	A "reader macro", in the parlance
11:57	Anderkent	eyepatch: but yes, googling for special symbols is really hard
11:58	Anderkent	eyepatch: I recommend spelling out symbol names, so try for example "clojure hash symbol" or "clojure pound symbol" (depending on wehre you're from :P)
11:58	gfredericks	llasram: yes the client closes the socket in the middle; also some other server-side error could happen to interrupt
11:59	eyepatch	Out of curiosity where is do people say pound and where do they say hash?
12:00	eyepatch	So it it similar to a lambda.
12:00	llasram	gfredericks: Ok. So with the CollReduce-based version, any error like that will cause an exception to be thrown within the dynamic scope of code you control
12:00	llasram	So as the stack unwinds, you can perform clean-up
12:00	eyepatch	oh silly me, it was in the "clojure in 15 minutes" thing.
12:00	eyepatch	Which is handy as a reference.
12:01	eyepatch	ok. Everything makes sense now.
12:01	Anderkent	eyepatch: I think europe says hash, usa says pound?
12:01	eyepatch	oh, ok.
12:01	Anderkent	for me pound is £ :P
12:01	llasram	eyepatch: What about senseless things? Do those now make sense?
12:01	eyepatch	I have the tendency to say British slang as an American.
12:01	eyepatch	llasram, senseless?
12:02	llasram	Anderkent: I say "hash" and am American
12:02	Anderkent	eyepatch: beause everything
12:02	eyepatch	Oh. right. I didn't qualify everything.
12:02	eyepatch	Hah, hah.
12:02	Anderkent	llasram: that's because you're a decent person!
12:02	llasram	heh
12:02	Anderkent	eyepatch: llasram: related: the only reason I use 7zip for everything is that it tells me 'Everything is OK' on each run
12:02	Anderkent	uplifting!
12:03	eyepatch	lol
12:04	Anderkent	AeroNotix: did you figure out how to do your split thing with areduce?
12:06	AeroNotix	Anderkent: sorry, no. I was updating my gpg key
12:06	llasram	gfredericks: The existing options for using a piped input stream or a seq are both fubar'd. With the input stream, nothing closes it, so your threat just fills the output stream buffer then blocks forever
12:06	llasram	gfredericks: With the seq option, you not only don't have any way of doing clean-up code, but
12:07	llasram	gfredericks: It turns out PrintWriter (which is what the servlet API uses) has this insane detail that it promises never to throw an exception after construction
12:07	llasram	gfredericks: So if the client connection closes, the ring-servlet loop just keeps pumping your seq into the void
12:11	TimMc	eyepatch: Hash, pound, sharp, number, octothorpe.
12:11	TimMc	eyepatch: Some of those are actually different characters, but they are all sometimes written as "#".
12:13	locks	little-jailcell-window-bar-thingie
12:15	llasram	I just know that it has to be called "hash" so that Common Lisp's "#\|" syntax is "hash-pipe"
12:16	locks	pound pipe is… yeah.
12:18	tbaldridge	"hash-pipe" wow, I need to find a reason to use that phrase
12:19	llasram	tbaldridge: Write more Common Lisp?
12:19	technomancy	that's asking a lot
12:19	tbaldridge	and seeing how the winds have changed in Colorado lately, I'm now much less likely to be arrested for using the phrase.
12:20	llasram	Oh, yeah -- I guess smoking more marijuana would also increase your number of opportunities for that phrase
12:20	locks	"no no, I meant an ASH pipe. they vintage son"
12:21	tbaldridge	I plan on using the phrase, not using the device the phrase suggests.
12:21	llasram	Just exploring the linguistic possibilities!
12:24	lvh	Hi
12:24	lvh	how can I do destructuring binding in my repl?
12:24	gfredericks	,(let [[a b] (range 10)] [b a])
12:24	clojurebot	[1 0]
12:24	lvh	I want (let [[x y] (f)]), except with keeping the names around
12:24	lvh	like def
12:25	gfredericks	(defmacro defs [form expr] (let [syms (->> form flatten (filter symbol?))] `(let [~form ~expr] ~@(for [sym syms] `(def ~sym ~sym))))
12:25	Anderkent	(let [[a b] (f)] (def x a) (def y b)) :P
12:26	gfredericks	I think I left out a paren at the end there
12:26	gfredericks	but that lets you (defs [a b] (range 10))
12:26	Anderkent	#clojurelastwords
12:26	rasmusto	gfredericks: whoa, I've always assumed it wasn't safe to do defs like that, am I wrong?
12:26	gfredericks	rasmusto: in what respect?
12:26	rasmusto	not sure, for code reloading or something?
12:27	gfredericks	it just expands to what Anderkent suggested
12:27	rasmusto	oh, maybe I was trying to "def" something in a function as a means of having a mutable variable
12:27	Anderkent	non-top-level defs are discouraged, but as long as you don't do unsane things it's okay
12:27	gfredericks	oh yeah that's terrible
12:27	Anderkent	yeah exactly don't put that ina function
12:27	Anderkent	just top level
12:27	rasmusto	(I remember asking about it before I knew a damn thing about clojure)
12:27	rasmusto	s/clojure/fp
12:28	gfredericks	looks like that defs doesn't cover map destructuring
12:29	gfredericks	due to ##(flatten {:a [1 2 3]})
12:29	lazybot	⇒ ()
12:29	rasmusto	,(seq {:a [1 2 3]})
12:29	clojurebot	([:a [1 2 3]])
12:30	lvh	hm
12:30	rasmusto	,(flatten (seq {:a [1 2 3]}))
12:30	clojurebot	(:a 1 2 3)
12:30	lvh	how can do I step by step debugging? there seem to be a bunch of articles on google with few currently usableconclusions
12:32	rasmusto	,(let [a [1 2 3], _ (prn a) b (map inc a), _ (prn b)] 'foo)
12:32	clojurebot	[1 2 3]\n(2 3 4)\nfoo
12:32	rasmusto	is how I debug step-by-step
12:32	rasmusto	lvh: probably not the answer you are looking for
12:33	`cbp	suddenly I go back to python and I'm at a total loss on how to do recursive traversal algorithms without persistent data structures
12:34	Anderkent	lvh: debugging is pretty flaky still. Eclipse with counterclockwise can somewhat do it
12:34	clgv	lvh: you can do that in counterclockwise
12:34	Anderkent	I usually just deftrace
12:34	rasmusto	`cbp: use += on mutable lists (and then quit in disgust)
12:34	Anderkent	and write tests :D
12:35	`cbp	sys.setsetrecursionlimit(10000) # yeahhhhh
12:35	TimMc	I tried writing a Python program recently.
12:36	mmitchel_	what happened?
12:36	rasmusto	here's how I write python nowadays: ^I^I(range) # syntax error
12:36	TimMc	It was going well until I had to figure out how to work with "unicode strings", and I was all http://replygif.net/i/310.gif
12:37	mmitchel_	lol
12:37	mmitchel_	that's the best
12:37	rasmusto	TimMc: use bytearray
12:37	rasmusto	er wait, no that's even more confusing
12:37	Anderkent	.. I've caught myself doing (. delegate callMethodStuff) while writing java ..
12:37	`cbp	unicode strings, the GIL
12:37	`cbp	the spanish inquisition was in the habit of burning python books
12:38	TimMc	All I wanted to do was to convert some strings to NFD, but nooOOOOoo
12:38	lvh	Cool, I fixed it by using more REPL.
12:39	rasmusto	lvh: how do you use the REPL, which environment?
12:39	lvh	rasmusto: cider
12:39	rasmusto	lvh: cool, I liked what I used of nrepl.el, but I'm a vim guy personally :D
12:40	lvh	if anyone feels like giving a newbie code review, https://github.com/lvh/pairing/blob/master/src/pairing/core.clj#L81 could use some
12:40	lvh	particularly the function on that line I think
12:40	Anderkent	I'm pretty happy with foreplay for vim
12:40	Anderkent	wait, it's called something else now isnt it
12:40	Anderkent	fireplace
12:40	rasmusto	Anderkent: fireplace, the public isn't ready for a plugin named foreplay
12:41	`cbp	lvh: would you paste an example input/output please?
12:41	rasmusto	well, not until we've had a good dose of cider
12:41	wink	is there a better way to get a mimetype of an image than this? (nio.file.Paths/Files) http://www.rgagnon.com/javadetails/java-0487.html
12:45	rasmusto	oh, I can't do :if-let in a for/doseq, right? should I nest another form?
12:46	rasmusto	or just a :let [blah (if ...)]] (if blah ...))
12:46	`cbp	you can have a :let and you can have a :when that filters
12:48	rasmusto	`cbp: hmm, I have a var thats bound to either each thing in a seq of things, or just once to nil, I'm not sure if :when helps
12:51	lvh	`cbp: Did you see the test file?
12:52	rasmusto	oh, I didn't know you could do ##(let [[a b] nil] [a b])
12:52	lazybot	⇒ [nil nil]
12:52	`cbp	lvh: no I just saw your fn
12:52	rasmusto	##(let [[a b] '()] [a b])
12:52	lazybot	⇒ [nil nil]
12:53	rasmusto	is this a lisp-1/2 thing about nil being an empty list of sorts?
12:55	fredyr	,(int 1.999999999999999)
12:55	clojurebot	1
12:56	llasram	rasmusto: "nil punning"; orthogonal to lisp-1 vs -2
12:56	fredyr	,(int 1.999999999999999)
12:56	clojurebot	1
12:56	fredyr	,(int 1.999999999999999999)
12:56	clojurebot	2
12:56	noncom	fredyr: magic
12:56	fredyr	^^ did you guys see this rounding thing on twitter?
12:56	fredyr	i guess its a java thing
12:56	fredyr	but im not really sure why
12:57	aperiodic	it's not a java thing, it's a fixed-point thing
12:57	`cbp	^
12:57	Wild_Cat	what rounding thing?
12:57	`cbp	does the same thing in most languages
12:57	llasram	rasmusto: In CL, `nil` is (`identical?` to) the empty list. In Clojure, the seq API is to treat `nil` as an empty sequence
12:57	Anderkent	,1.999999999999999999)
12:57	clojurebot	2.0
12:57	fredyr	oh right
12:58	Anderkent	it worked with that paren, wat
12:58	`cbp	,(
12:58	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
12:58	fredyr	on twitter it was
12:58	metellus	,213354908fdjk
12:58	clojurebot	#<NumberFormatException java.lang.NumberFormatException: Invalid number: 213354908fdjk>
12:58	fredyr	,(nth [1 2 3 4] 1.9999999999999)
12:58	clojurebot	2
12:58	fredyr	,(nth [1 2 3 4] 1.999999999999999999)
12:59	clojurebot	3
12:59	rasmusto	ah yeah, saw that
12:59	fredyr	which threw me off a bit
12:59	rasmusto	,1.999999999999999999
12:59	clojurebot	2.0
12:59	rasmusto	ah ok, it's just a cast-to-int thing
12:59	Wild_Cat	more like IEEE floating point oddity.
12:59	fredyr	yeah
13:00	rasmusto	,(nth [0 1 2 3] 1.999999999999999999)
13:00	clojurebot	2
13:00	Wild_Cat	and not JVM-specific, for that matter.
13:00	rasmusto	illustrates it a bit more clearly
13:00	fredyr	yeah ofc its for any ieee floating points
13:01	fredyr	(dec fredyr)
13:01	lazybot	You can't adjust your own karma.
13:01	fredyr	:s
13:01	Wild_Cat	funny how even when aware of the IEEE floating point imprecision thing, I always tended to assume that they were always erring downwards
13:02	Wild_Cat	(that is, that the number you get is always <= to the literal you typed)
13:02	Wild_Cat	when there's no such guarantee, as we just saw.
13:02	Wild_Cat	and I should have known better.
13:02	strijkijzer	So ehh
13:02	strijkijzer	People here don't hate a lisp-like syntax but like it more I assume?
13:03	fredyr	lol
13:03	BullSherd	Wow, Google is making really strange things http://goo.gl/YEkaMA
13:03	BullSherd	funny haha xD
13:04	`cbp	~guards
13:04	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
13:04	strijkijzer	fredyr, are you laughing at me?
13:04	Wild_Cat	strijkijzer: kinda hard to like Clojure and hate the Lisp syntax at the same time
13:04	Wild_Cat	...although as far as I'm concerned, I like Clojure's syntax -- that is, I find all the additions it made to the Lisp syntax great.
13:05	`cbp	I like it the most because of stuff like paredit
13:05	Wild_Cat	simple stuff like vector, map and set literals make it so much more readable.
13:05	`cbp	and paredit + multiple cursors = yes plz
13:05	fredyr	strijkijzer: sorry, but yes it is a reasonable thing to assume, that lispers don't hate lisp
13:05	strijkijzer	fredyr, maybe they see it as a lesser evil.
13:05	strijkijzer	Syntax is typically the last concern for me to judge if I like a language, I can get around bad syntax if the semantics are sound.
13:05	strijkijzer	Like, I hate Haskell syntax but apart from that the langauge is fine.
13:06	Wild_Cat	strijkijzer: bad syntax is hard to get around.
13:06	strijkijzer	So I was wondering if maybe people see the lisp like syntax as a lesser evil or something?
13:06	`cbp	bad syntax is I have to google for how to write the stupid thing but oh guess what the whole thing is ungoogleable
13:06	strijkijzer	Well, it's one of the least important parts of programming language design insofar that most languages just re-use the same syntax that was used before and slightly modifiy.
13:06	Wild_Cat	I liken it to typing on an uncomfortable keyboard -- sure, you can do it, but it always gets in the way.
13:06	strijkijzer	THere are basically 3 big syntax families in use. C-style, Lisp-style and ML-style.
13:07	strijkijzer	But apparently people don't see it as a lesser evil
13:07	technomancy	you can tell when someone's new to lisp; it's the people who aren't totally keen on homoiconicity
13:07	strijkijzer	I hear a lot from people that they don't like it though which confuses me.
13:07	strijkijzer	It's not as much the homo-iconicity that I like as much as the consistency and simplicity and explicitness.
13:08	Wild_Cat	strijkijzer: I can see how "bare" Lisp syntax can be a pain. I mean, like I just said, I don't like it when a language goes too far in the minimalism direction.
13:08	strijkijzer	If you see something like x %% y *# z in Haskell you're just going to guess what the praecedence is.
13:08	strijkijzer	Hmm, I don't like "special rules" too much.
13:08	Wild_Cat	vector/map/set literals make Clojure far more readable than most Lisps I've been exposed to.
13:09	strijkijzer	Like ehh, in Haskell, a year back I was trying to define a (..) operator for double function composition (.) is single function composition, turns out I can't do this because it has [n..k] syntax which is basically (range n k)
13:09	Wild_Cat	...for that matter they make any language that has them more readable.
13:09	strijkijzer	I really wonder why on earth [n..k] is necessary, surely range n k suffices?
13:09	Wild_Cat	(yes Java, I'm glaring at you)
13:10	Wild_Cat	(and I'm also glaring harder at C++ which doesn't even have string literals)
13:12	strijkijzer	Wild_Cat, well, the point is it is arbitrary in languages which allow you to define arbitrarily complex new algebraic datatypes.
13:12	`cbp	strijkijzer: for the same reason you need to put a comma between every item in a data structure
13:12	strijkijzer	You can't define new datatypes in clojure can you?
13:12	strijkijzer	`cbp, what is that a reply to?
13:12	Anderkent	strijkijzer: define datatype. defrecord might be what you want?
13:12	Wild_Cat	strijkijzer: new datatypes as in new literals, or as in new data structures?
13:12	`cbp	syntax that seems to be designed for people that write with pen and paper
13:13	Wild_Cat	because if it's the latter, you absolutely can.
13:13	`cbp	strijkijzer: the [n..k] thing
13:14	strijkijzer	Wild_Cat, well is it possible in clojure to create a myList whose interface in every way is identical to the current list
13:14	jita	Which is better ide eclipse or intellij idea ?
13:14	strijkijzer	or a my-vector.
13:14	Wild_Cat	strijkijzer: sure.
13:15	strijkijzer	Wild_Cat, ah I wasn't aware of that.
13:15	strijkijzer	And this runs with the same performance internally?
13:15	Wild_Cat	strijkijzer: it's even necessary to be able to do that, due to the fact that Clojure interops with Java
13:15	`cbp	strijkijzer: it's usually best to write high performance data structures with java
13:15	`cbp	then write a clojure wrapper
13:16	strijkijzer	Well, I'm asking about the possibility.
13:16	Wild_Cat	strijkijzer: I'm guessing the performance will be inferior because Clojure's vector is implemented in Java at a lower-level.
13:16	strijkijzer	At least, my point with loads and loads of special syntax for data structures is that it's arbitrary.
13:16	strijkijzer	I think (vector a b c d) suffices for [a b c d] really.
13:16	Wild_Cat	strijkijzer: of course it is. But that's not a good enough justification to not add in literals for the most commonly-used data structures.
13:17	tbaldridge	Wild_Cat: the funny thing is, the java version of vectors is almost exactly like what Clojure would spit out if you used deftype, protocols and type hinting.
13:17	Wild_Cat	the square brackets jump out at me, making it easier to identify the vector.
13:17	Wild_Cat	(likewise {} for maps)
13:17	tbaldridge	Wild_Cat: so there may not be a performance difference at all.
13:17	strijkijzer	Well, at one point this does some pretty convoluted things wityh the language syntax, OCAml definitely has this problem that the language syntax deifnition becomes too overloaded because of all rthis and typos often result in it not becoming bad syntax but something you didn indend.
13:17	Wild_Cat	especially when you take into account the fact that Clojure uses vectors and maps a lot.
13:18	technomancy	ocaml's precedence rules =(
13:18	llasram	Raynes: ping
13:18	Raynes	Hello, this is Raynes.
13:18	llasram	Raynes: https://github.com/Raynes/bultitude/commit/68491b281a5de760fc44e087fffdca2e03b2ef6b
13:18	Wild_Cat	strijkijzer: language design, at that point, becomes a matter of taste and restraint: how many special cases do you add?
13:18	llasram	THe `(second form)` -> `form` commit changes the public interface
13:18	llasram	Is this known?
13:19	Wild_Cat	(that's an open question that every language designer will answer differently. I think Clojure hits a sweet spot, or pretty close to one)
13:19	Wild_Cat	(I also think Python hits another one)
13:19	Raynes	llasram: The commit specifically states that it shouldn't break existing functionality. If it does, then I will promptly release a new major version and beat Grayson up.
13:20	Raynes	And by 'promptly' I mean at like 10PM tonight PST.
13:20	Raynes	:P
13:20	llasram	I'm confused why no one has noticed until now, because it breaks the Leiningen test, but yeah -- `ns-form-for-file` used to return just the ns symbol, but now returns the full form
13:20	strijkijzer	Wild_Cat, well yeah, obviously it's super subjective.
13:21	strijkijzer	If I designed a syntax, I would probably make numbers default to hexdecimal and read from lefty to right.
13:21	teslanick	Are there any guides for building an om/clojurescript app side-by-side with a clojure app?
13:21	strijkijzer	Note that we currently read numbers from right to left ina script that coes from left to right
13:22	llasram	s,the Leiningen test,a Leiningen test,
13:27	fredyr	teslanick: do you mean with a clojure backend or something?
13:28	teslanick	fredyr: Yeah. With the possibility of logic-sharing across the two stacks.
13:29	fredyr	teslanick: ah right, i haven't seen anything with om/cljs to that end
13:30	fredyr	teslanick: but there has been alot of buzz about cljx for code sharing between cljs and clj lately
13:32	teslanick	Interesting, thanks!
13:36	llasram	Raynes: To clarify, you are planning on bumping the version vs restoring the old interface, yes?
13:36	llasram	Well, I guess bumping w/o restoring vs bumping + restoring
13:40	Anderkent	FWIW, the change makes sense to me, and something like 'ns-symbol-for-file' could be added for the old functionality
13:41	llasram	Anderkent: Yeah, I don't honestly care. I just want to fix Leiningen in a way that won't need to be changed again right away :-)
13:41	Anderkent	:D
13:41	Anderkent	(let [ns-sym (if (symbol? ns-form) ns-form (second ns-form))]) ex!
13:41	Anderkent	*ez!
13:41	Anderkent	:P
13:42	gfredericks	(cond-> ns-form (symbol? ns-form) (second))
13:42	gfredericks	or the other way
13:43	llasram	Better, but I'm looking for a social solution :-)
13:49	Raynes	llasram: Bumping the version number.
13:49	Raynes	The change was necessary for a Leiningen feature
13:49	llasram	Raynes: Awesome
14:03	DomKM	If you were going to read SICP, On Lisp, Lisp in Small Pieces, and Let Over Lambda, in what order would you read them?
14:03	DomKM	That's the order I'm reading them but I'm interested in what someone who has already read them thinks
14:04	jcromartie	I'd read half of SICP first, then give up, and then do the same with the rest in any order you'd like.
14:04	jcromartie	:P
14:04	jcromartie	that's just what I've done
14:04	DomKM	lol
14:04	deadghost	I have a terrible tendency
14:04	deadghost	to stop reading books half way through
14:04	deadghost	halfway is enough for me to be dangerous
14:04	deadghost	then I go be dangerous
14:05	deadghost	and say I'll go back to finish eventually
14:05	deadghost	(hasn't happened yet)
14:07	DomKM	yeah that's a distinct possibility
14:09	jcromartie	you usually get your dopamine hit (for me, when SICP demonstrated how you can build any data structure with closures) about halfway through these books
14:12	fredyr	i've never found let over lambda particularly engaging, so never gotten far
14:13	tbaldridge	DomKM: to be honest, in the older lisp books, the lisp being used is so primitive, I wonder if it's worth reading those before the Clojure books.
14:13	tbaldridge	I went back and read some Scheme code the other day, and my reaction was "why on earth would you code this way...oh yeah, you don't have types, or literal hash maps, or immutable vectors or....."
14:14	bbloom	tbaldridge: i'm trying to write some C right now... my brain hurts
14:14	bbloom	tbaldridge: but it's not the memory management or the low level anything...it's just like... wait... why the fuck are structs in different namespaces from other types?
14:14	DomKM	tbaldridge: I've already read most of the clojure books, I consider these readings to be more foundational than instructional
14:14	bbloom	and how come i can't add a new namespace without prefixing symbols?
14:15	tbaldridge	bbloom: what are you writing?
14:16	bbloom	tbaldridge: all kinds of fun/terrible stuff :-P
14:19	deadghost	is there a list of cool stuff written in clojure I can peruse?
14:20	Anderkent	deadghost: https://github.com/trending?l=clojure ? :D
14:21	deadghost	that works
14:22	deadghost	though I'm looking more for a whole project than libraries
14:22	Anderkent	right, don't know about that, projects by nature don't get as much visibility
14:24	Anderkent	I mean I guess it depends on what you'd call a project. Maybe just read through sources of tools that you can use? lein, lein plugins (cloverage! except code be ugly) etc.
14:24	Anderkent	but in general reading sources of real projects is not actually that constructive
14:25	deadghost	Anderkent, I was more looking for the purpose of hyping myself up
14:25	deadghost	like FUCK YES CLOJURE
14:25	Anderkent	oh
14:25	llasram	Code in a non-library project is just code you don't expect to be able to reuse :-)
14:25	deadghost	CLOJURE!!!1!!11!
14:25	Anderkent	right, and because you don't expect to reuse it and just want to get shit done it tends to not be as pretty :P
14:25	Anderkent	deadghost: I dunno, lighttable?
14:25	Anderkent	is pretty cool
14:26	algernon	deadghost: core.logic, kibit are two things that are jawdropping (and are reasonably understandable)
14:26	Anderkent	core.async is pretty cool too
14:26	algernon	also, overtone. never forget overtone and what Sam Aaron does with it.
14:26	deadghost	oh right
14:26	deadghost	I've been meaning to play with overtone
14:37	lvh	Hi :) if anyone is willing to scan some newbie code and give feedback, I'd be much obliged: https://github.com/lvh/pairing/blob/master/src/pairing/core.clj#L81
14:44	cark	lvh: a cursomary glance, and it looks quite neat
14:44	lvh	cark: Cool! Thanks :)
14:45	cark	lvh : tho i personally prefer being a bit more explicit about the data
14:45	stompyj	Just want to canvas the community here, for those running clojure web apps, whats your deployment vehicle? immutant? jetty + apache, jetty + nginx? beanstalk/
14:45	lvh	cark: How do I do that?
14:45	Anderkent	lvh: the one thing I've mentioned before - I'd swap around the order in if statements, so that you don't have to scan through 15 lines to find the else clause
14:45	cark	lvh : I like having constructor functions for my data
14:45	llasram	stompyj: jetty in an uberjar fronted by apache right now. Want to move toward immutant though
14:46	stompyj	llasram: any reason why apache over nginx? I only ask because I haven't used apache in so long, I'm curious if there's something I'm missing there
14:46	lvh	cark: Ah. I have not done that yet because the data will be coming from gnlary csv data so I will need to write an explicit munging layer :)
14:46	cark	lvh : and let it be known that i disagree with Anderkent =)
14:46	llasram	stompyj: And these are all internal Web service -- nothing public facing
14:46	lvh	Anderkent: Sorry I missed that before
14:46	llasram	stompyj: Because we have tiny team who all knows how to make Apache dance :-)
14:46	lvh	Anderkent: So (if (not (seq x ...?
14:46	stompyj	llasram: haha, fair enough
14:47	Anderkent	lvh: (if-not
14:47	lvh	oh, I didn't know about if-not
14:47	stompyj	llasram: how do you deploy?
14:47	cark	don't do that ><
14:47	cark	it's harder to understand
14:47	Anderkent	stompyj: the one clojure webapp I've used was on aleph, which I believe is powered by netty. Then just pushed as an uberjar to heroku
14:48	Anderkent	cark: how come it's harder to understand?
14:48	llasram	stompyj: jenkins builds .deb packages and pushes them to an APT repo, from where puppet then deploys them
14:48	stompyj	llasram: wow
14:48	cark	Anderkent: negation is harder on the brain, at least I think it is
14:48	Anderkent	huuuh
14:49	Anderkent	I'm so confused right now but I'll accept that you don't like negation
14:49	llasram	stompyj: What sort of "wow" was that? :-)
14:49	Anderkent	for me (if-not (seq)) is completely idiomatic and automatically parses as 'empty seq'
14:50	Anderkent	and having the short branch first makes it much easier to scan the code
14:50	Anderkent	indentation's not reliable over 20-lines
14:50	cark	ahwell that's a fine point anyway
14:50	Anderkent	I suppose the other solution is to just pull out the long body into a helper fn
14:50	bhauman	confused about how to determine if an instance implements a Protocol in cljs
14:50	cark	can't do that with the recur
14:50	stompyj	llasram: it was a "another deployment strategy I've not heard of yet" wow
14:51	stompyj	llasram: I've been working in ruby since 2004, and .NET/Java before that... so while I 100% love clojure, I'm still trying to find the right level when it comes to deployment
14:51	llasram	stompyj: It was inspired by this: https://hynek.me/articles/python-app-deployment-with-native-packages/
14:51	Anderkent	bhauman: satisfies? protocol object) I think?
14:52	stompyj	the ruby in me tells me just to deploy via beanstalk / heroku. But the old enterprise programmer in me wants to invest time in immutant or jetty and do a ansible deploy, etc
14:52	bhauman	Anderkent: thanks will try that :)
14:52	Anderkent	llasram: I did something similar in python but only because we had a 2gb dependency (xelatex)
14:53	cark	lvh : The one thing I don't like is that the shape of your data is not directly apparent. But on the other hand the code is neat. So if it works with you it's all good
14:53	llasram	stompyj: Yeah, it depends on your use-case. If I were starting from scratch for a public service on cloud infrastructure, would probably do it entirely differently
14:54	llasram	Anderkent: I did it because we have stuff in Python, Ruby, and Clojure, and our previous system was a mess.
14:54	bhauman	Anderkent: thanks, that bit of basic knowledge goes a long way. And now I see it there on the protocols page.
14:54	Anderkent	yeah, got it
14:54	Anderkent	bhauman: no worries, pretty used to googling stuff for people ;>
14:55	llasram	Anderkent: Following the same model for everything got deployment entirely automated, and with atomic packages using the language-appropriate tools
14:55	bhauman	Anderkent: I google the crap out of that and it just wasn't surfacing for me
14:55	Notte	Hi, is it possible to have a function with two vector parameters that destructures the second one into head (which i don't care) and tail?
14:56	jcrossley3	llasram: when the time comes, we'd like to help get debian init scripts hardened for immutant, too.
14:56	cark	(defn vecs [vec1 [h & tail]] ...)
14:56	bhauman	Notte: ^
14:56	rasmusto	,(let [a [_ & tail] [[1 2 3] ['foo 4 5]] [a tail])
14:56	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: )>
14:57	Notte	cark: thanks. I was writing it wrong.
14:57	llasram	jcrossley3: I have to confess that I personally just use runit :-)
14:57	rasmusto	whoops, missed something
14:57	rasmusto	,(let [a [_ & tail] [[1 2 3] ['foo 4 5]]] [a tail])
14:57	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: let requires an even number of forms in binding vector in sandbox:>
14:57	jcrossley3	llasram: cheater ;)
14:58	lvh	cark: Would a defrecord fix that
14:58	cark	lvh : don't sweat it. Your code is idiomatic enough. What matters most is to get the product done !
14:59	Anderkent	bhauman: my query was 'clojure implements protocol' FTR, which brings up clojure.org/protocols, which mentions extends? and satisfies?
14:59	bhauman	genius!
15:00	esancho	llasram: do you use something like Rundeck to orchestrate deployments with puppet?
15:01	llasram	esancho: Not yet, but we just finally got an ops person who knows this stuff, and he's got plans
15:01	Anderkent	queue evil sysop laugh
15:01	llasram	esancho: For now we just have our internal packages set to be 'latest' and do an `apt-get update` (against internal repos only) on each run
15:02	danneu	What's a good way to create a config.edn file that lets you change things on the fly in production? slurp + a ttl cache?
15:04	lvh	is there a refactoring lib that can rename a function across a project
15:04	lvh	clj-refactor.el
15:04	lvh	I have that; but it only has file renames.
15:06	esancho	llasram: gotcha, the tricky part is when you need to orchestrate deployments across multiple servers... I'm working on something similar right now and it was funny to read about it in #clojure
15:07	llasram	esancho: Ah, yeah. That's rare enough for us that it's still manual. Perfect, enemy of the good, etc :-)
15:09	stompyj	llasram: back, catchingup
15:10	stompyj	llasram: I might wimp out and go with clojure to start. the thing is that I want to use fluentd or something like that to capture pretty detailed logging events, etc
15:10	stompyj	llasram: and if I decide to do apache / jetty, then I need to build a chef script that deploys all that stuff (chef is what we currently use), but what I really want to do is use ansible,
15:10	stompyj	Im being wishy washy atm :)
15:11	llasram	You can only find better ways by trying new ways, but you can only get stuff done by doing things which work. Always a dilemma!
15:13	stompyj	yeah, its further complicated by the fact we are 85% done with this project, and we have about 3 months before it has to launch
15:13	stompyj	so lots of naval gazing time
15:13	stompyj	if I don't keep myself on track
15:13	stompyj	heh
15:17	gfredericks	I'm seeing some spooky dependency resolution involving lein plugins
15:17	llasram	Spooooooooky
15:20	stompyj	llasram: another question, do you guys write tests? and if so, which lib are you using
15:21	llasram	stompyj: For deployment?
15:21	stompyj	oh no, TDD type testing
15:21	Anderkent	midje for functional tests, junit for integration
15:21	stompyj	i'm using midje right now
15:21	stompyj	as well
15:21	dima_	any quick ideas on how to get lein work with some java code using "lombok"? lein pom; mvn compile works, lein compile and lein javac fail with ClassNotFound for "com/sun/tools/javac/processing/JavacProcessingEnvironment"
15:21	gfredericks	project has dep [A 2] and plugin [C 1] -> [B 1] -> [A 1]
15:22	stompyj	I'm finding that unit tests aren't as important due to the functional nature of clojure + the repl
15:22	llasram	stompyj: Oh, we use clojure.test for all our Clojure testing.
15:22	llasram	We used midje for some Cascalog projects, because of midje-cascalog, but the level of magic got too intense for me
15:22	llasram	Plus my experience is that the way midje wants to run tests when compiling a namespace cramps the typical Clojure workflow
15:23	stompyj	llasram: Anderkent: thanks
15:23	Anderkent	llasram: yeah thats why our facts are deftest wrapped ;p
15:23	Anderkent	my pain with midje is mostly that factoring stuff out is really hard
15:23	Anderkent	because fact is a macro, you cant just call a function that makes some assertions
15:23	llasram	Anderkent: I remember trying that and running into some sort of issue -- don't recall exactly what
15:23	stompyj	do you guys have any experience with mocking out third party services in midje? This is the one thing I can't wrap my head around re: tests
15:24	Anderkent	stompyj: if you have a clojure api for them, just (provided (third-party/request :arg1 "foo") => {:response :body})
15:24	gfredericks	oh I think this is speclj's fault somehow
15:25	stompyj	Anderkent: that makes sense. then where do you stick all the gnarly responses? inside the test suite itself? or do you load them from a file? currently I have a bunch of (def something <INSERT GNARLY JSON HERE>)
15:25	stompyj	I will say, I've only ever done TDD in ruby (and a smidge in C#) so outside of the ruby world, I have a ton of "where does this go" questions
15:26	egghead	dnolen: am I correct in my observation that om doesn't support lists (only vectors) ?
15:26	ddima	nobody? :/
15:27	Anderkent	stompyj: so you probably want to separate this into two layers. One that transforms the gnarly responses into nice data structures. In there you can just put the model responses in test-resources and load from file
15:27	Anderkent	then on the business layer you just mock your interaction layer and return maps with whatever you expect
15:27	stompyj	interesting. makes sense
15:28	stompyj	test/resources is an idiomatic clojure directory structure for such things? (I've never heard of it)
15:29	Anderkent	I believe it's test-resources in lein
15:31	Notte	,(do (defn t [coll1 [_ & coll2]] (cond (and coll1 coll2) 0 (and coll1 (not coll2)) 1 :else 2)) (t [] []))
15:31	clojurebot	1
15:32	Notte	Would anyone explain me why is it happening, please?
15:33	Notte	,(true? (and [] (not [])))
15:33	clojurebot	false
15:33	edbond	,(not [])
15:33	clojurebot	false
15:34	edbond	,(and true false)
15:34	clojurebot	false
15:34	edbond	,(true? [])
15:34	clojurebot	false
15:34	RickInAtlanta	,(if [] true false)
15:34	clojurebot	true
15:34	edbond	Notte, ^^^
15:34	Notte	ow
15:35	egghead	Notte: because coll2 doesn't exist?
15:35	logic_prog	is there a way in clojure code to say: "fire off a nrepl at this point" ?
15:35	logic_prog	i.e. a nrepl which has (1) the local environments, (2) I can evaluate forms, and (3) pick a value to return?
15:35	egghead	Notte: why do you expect coll2 to exist?
15:36	egghead	,(and [] (not nil))
15:36	clojurebot	true
15:36	Notte	egghead: i don't know. Sorry.
15:36	egghead	Notte: it's the way destructuring works, if it can't find a match it binds 'nil'
15:37	Notte	ok
15:37	Notte	thank you, edbond and egghead
15:37	egghead	if you have [] as your data and [_ & x] as your match, then it will try to break [] into first and rest, binding x to rest
15:37	egghead	if you try to get (rest []) you get nil
15:38	egghead	hope this helps Notte
15:39	Notte	i'll remember it
15:40	gfredericks	when a lein plugin has :dependencies, those should never get on the app's classpath, correct?
15:41	egghead	hopefully gfredericks are you seeing otherwise?
15:42	hiredman	some plugins will inject things in to the projects deps
15:44	gfredericks	hiredman: this one doesn't obviously
15:44	gfredericks	https://github.com/slagyr/speclj/blob/2.9.0/src/leiningen/spec.clj#L23
15:44	gfredericks	I am seeing otherwise
15:44	gfredericks	about to post a minimal reproducing project
15:46	gfredericks	here it is: https://github.com/fredericksgary/bad-deps
15:46	gfredericks	actually this is quite weird because it's one plugin causing another unrelated plugin's dep to be used
15:47	gfredericks	`lein deps :tree` does not pick up on this
15:48	danielglauser	gfredericks: did you try `lein shadowdeps :tree`?
15:48	danielglauser	:)
15:48	gfredericks	:P
15:49	gfredericks	migratus-lein is a plugin that depends on migratus which depends on an old java.jdbc
15:49	gfredericks	speclj is a plugin that runs tests
15:50	Anderkent	gfredericks: when I try running that project I can't even `lein with-profile speclj repl`
15:50	gfredericks	Anderkent: what's it do?
15:50	Anderkent	crash saying nrepl is not on classpath
15:50	gfredericks	me too; I wonder why
15:51	gfredericks	something about how with-profile works maybe
15:51	gfredericks	all that profile does is change the :test-paths
15:52	Anderkent	crazy. that's even if I remove the plugins
15:52	gfredericks	you should be able to avoid with-profile by setting test-paths at the top level and using `lein spec`; but then `lein test` won't work for normal reasons
15:52	gfredericks	I think you're describing a different [non-]problem
15:52	sdegutis	Quick design question. I have a macro that basically does (if ~condition (do ~@body) (handle-error)) and I want to replace it with non-macro code. But I'm finding that `body` is often multiple things, so I need to wrap it in (do), which can look a little ugly inside an (if) but can't be replaced with a (when) on account of the else-clause. What would you do in this case?
15:53	llasram	sdegutis: Just use the macro
15:54	gfredericks	so where is the classpath actually constructed?
15:57	gfredericks	leiningen.core.classpath probably
15:58	Anderkent	gfredericks: yeah, you get both jdbcs on your classpath with that profile
15:59	gfredericks	Anderkent: how did you figure that out?
15:59	Anderkent	printed out the classpath from main
15:59	Anderkent	:D
15:59	sdegutis	llasram: hmm, that's one idea, but I can't help feeling like it's non-idiomatic to have (with-some-effect some-arg ...) in my code.
15:59	Anderkent	(println (seq (.getURLs (java.lang.ClassLoader/getSystemClassLoader))))
16:00	gfredericks	good to know
16:01	sdegutis	This macro mainly exists to hide a (do) and the else-clause, and I'm not sure that's a good enough reason for it to be a macro.
16:01	gfredericks	Anderkent: wait are you doing that without running the spec task?
16:01	gfredericks	Anderkent: I get the normal deps using `lein with-profile speclj run`
16:02	gfredericks	at least it prints the normal version
16:02	Anderkent	no, I mean with the spec task
16:02	Anderkent	so I assume it's the speclj plugin messing things up
16:02	gfredericks	right
16:03	gfredericks	I can't figure out how though because it seems like the task gets to eval-in-project pretty quick without touching anything weird
16:03	Glenjamin	the speclj plugin does something really odd
16:03	Glenjamin	i ran into this the other week, 1 min
16:03	sdegutis	gfredericks: why did you choose speclj?
16:03	gfredericks	sdegutis: I didn't
16:03	gfredericks	am debugging for a coworker
16:04	Glenjamin	i chose it because i like the RSpec test spec style
16:04	Anderkent	gfredericks: but the speclj plugin adds spelcj to your classpath somehow right?
16:04	Anderkent	I don't see where it happens but it must
16:04	Glenjamin	in a recent version of speclj they stopped using a second jvm process
16:04	Glenjamin	and ran tests in the lein process itself
16:04	gfredericks	waat
16:05	Anderkent	that'd do it
16:05	Glenjamin	you can fix by adding ":speclj-eval-in :subprocess" to your project.clj
16:05	Glenjamin	https://github.com/slagyr/speclj/pull/67
16:05	hiredman	https://github.com/slagyr/speclj/blob/2.9.0/src/leiningen/spec.clj#L33
16:05	Glenjamin	thats the one.
16:05	Glenjamin	took me a good hour or so to track down
16:06	sdegutis	Wow.
16:06	sdegutis	(re: the pull request)
16:06	gfredericks	huh
16:06	Anderkent	gfredericks: so you basically want a dependency on speclj instead of :plugins speclj
16:06	rasmusto	i had nil pudding for lunch
16:06	Glenjamin	you need both if you want to do "lein spec"
16:07	sdegutis	(inc rasmusto)
16:07	lazybot	⇒ 3
16:07	gfredericks	Anderkent: or both? how does `lein spec` work if it's not a plugin?
16:07	Glenjamin	"just run it in the same JVM to save 3 seconds" seems like a reasonable idea, apart from the part where it isn't
16:08	Anderkent	you're right it's both
16:08	Glenjamin	gfredericks: you need both so you can do lein spec, but adding ":speclj-eval-in :subprocess" should fix classpath weirdness
16:08	Anderkent	Glenjamin: actually it kind of is, but you want to fire off a new classloader
16:08	hiredman	it is a plugin that runs code in the projects process, so it injects a speclj dep into the project
16:09	Glenjamin	Anderkent: i don't know enough about java/jvm to deal with classloaders, but i would love to be able to run stuff with siloed dependencies
16:09	Glenjamin	defeat callback hell and all that
16:09	Glenjamin	sorry, dependency hell
16:09	gfredericks	I'm having trouble getting this to work after adding :subprocess
16:09	Glenjamin	gfredericks: when i ran into the issue, it was because speclj and lein itself clashed on some dependency
16:10	pcn	Are there libraries that make file handling easier? I'd like something that implicitly manages a file using with-open, and provides an split. And that buffers reads and writes.
16:10	Anderkent	lein trampoline was a thing wasnt it
16:10	Glenjamin	lein trampoline is a funky hack
16:10	Glenjamin	the lein shell wrapper reads a file that the lein jvm left behind and execs it
16:11	Glenjamin	but shouldn't make a difference vs subprocess
16:11	gfredericks	Glenjamin: thanks for figuring this out :)
16:11	Glenjamin	got it working?
16:11	Anderkent	ah. I thought trampoline was reusing the same process, just doing classpath magic
16:11	Anderkent	but I guess it's not
16:12	hlship	Curiousity: when extending a protocol onto Clojure maps, it seems like you could extend APersistentMap, IPersistentMap, or even Associative. What is the best choice, or what do you need to consider to make a choice.
16:14	gfredericks	Glenjamin: no but I'm not surprised it doesn't work anymore :)
16:14	Glenjamin	http://www.flyingmachinestudios.com/programming/lein-trampoline/ : "How Clojure Babies are Made: Leiningen's Trampoline"
16:14	Glenjamin	gfredericks: downgrading to speclj 2.8 is probably not unreasonable
16:14	Anderkent	Glenjamin: yeah I found it now
16:14	Anderkent	gfredericks: I got it to run tests, it just crashed on checking the exit code ;p
16:14	Anderkent	I'd raise a bug with speclj
16:15	Anderkent	make them worry about it
16:15	Glenjamin	yeah, i might see if they'll change the default back - it doesn't seem like a good idea
16:15	gfredericks	yeah I saw the exit code thing too
16:15	Glenjamin	the solution to slow jvm startup with speclj is to use --auto
16:15	gfredericks	so leiningen has a feature where if you say :eval-in :leiningen it... how the hell does it get your normal dependencies in that case?
16:15	Anderkent	as to classpath isolation, yeah, I'd like a nice thing for it too
16:16	Anderkent	right now I'm also sharing the classpath with environment project in my plugin (cloverage)
16:16	llasram	gfredericks: That's intended for plugins and the like, for the plugin code itself. The speclj plugin doing this is totes counter-purpose
16:17	Anderkent	the current idea to fix it is to switch to subprocess evaluation, but that means I have to make intrumentation produce files rather thane val things, and bleh in general
16:17	technomancy	gfredericks: :eval-in :leiningen turns :dependencies into :plugins
16:17	Anderkent	*than eval
16:17	technomancy	effectively
16:17	gfredericks	technomancy: how does it do that after the process has already started up?
16:17	Anderkent	technomancy: does it attempt resolution or just takes project classpath and appends it to current one?
16:18	technomancy	gfredericks: pomegranate classloader tricks
16:18	technomancy	Anderkent: it does a new resolution
16:18	Anderkent	then a duplicate classpath entry is probably a bug there
16:19	Anderkent	oh unless it did a new resolution, got a differnt version... Can you remove things from classpath?
16:19	OscarZ	i have a vector x of maps and i want to return the same vector but without a specific map that i can find with (apply min-key :value x).. whats the best way to do this? probably something simple that im missing again :)
16:19	Glenjamin	gimme 2 mins i can tell you what i conflicted on...
16:20	AimHere	OscarZ, filter sifts a collection by a predicate
16:21	technomancy	wow wait... speclj runs project code in leiningen by default?
16:21	OscarZ	oh i thought i tried filter.. so predicate like #(not= y %) should work ?
16:21	technomancy	._.
16:21	Anderkent	technomancy: yep, because it saves 3 seconds!
16:22	AimHere	OscarZ, well that's one example of a predicate
16:22	technomancy	http://p.hagelb.org/10no.gif
16:22	AimHere	You'll have to craft the appropriate one for your problem!
16:22	Anderkent	technomancy: https://github.com/slagyr/speclj/pull/67 go and post that there :
16:23	Glenjamin	right, yeah
16:24	Glenjamin	the problem I had was speclj wanting a newer version of clj-stacktrace than the one that leiningen had already loaded
16:24	Glenjamin	which was resolved by telling it not to do :eval-in :leiningen
16:25	Anderkent	I mean okay, what they did before was also insane
16:26	Anderkent	they spawned off their own jvm
16:26	Anderkent	rather than using eval-in-project
16:26	technomancy	pretty weird
16:26	Anderkent	yeah I don't even
16:26	technomancy	http://p.hagelb.org/comfort.jpg
16:27	Anderkent	How many pics do you even have there. Damn you for not having an index
16:27	sturner	Anyone familiar with http://www.prismtech.com/opensplice and worked with DDS in general from Clojure?
16:27	technomancy	mwahaha
16:28	gfredericks	I bet he has an emacs function that searches his images directory to make sure he gets the url right
16:29	gfredericks	he can send a gif url in an avg of 4 keystrokes
16:29	technomancy	I've stopped trying to save keystrokes since getting a mechanical keyboard
16:29	Anderkent	he just has a mapping from emoticones to gifs on outgoing text
16:29	technomancy	since each keystroke is so crisp and satisfying
16:29	technomancy	I no longer want to minimize that feeling
16:30	seangrove	technomancy: Is there a way to specify host on the command line when starting a repl?
16:30	bbloom	technomancy: aw yeah, mmm mechanical. love it
16:31	technomancy	seangrove: LEIN_REPL_HOST I think
16:31	technomancy	bbloom: cherry MX blues; I heart them so much
16:31	jkj	steampunkical keyboard
16:31	teslanick	keyboard nerds are the worst. ;)
16:31	pcn	technomancy: you must have your own office. I had to take away the keyboard from an intern when he got one a couple of years ago.
16:31	Glenjamin	wow, this speclj task stuff is really weird now
16:31	Anderkent	pcn: there are silent mechanical switches
16:31	pcn	Oooooh.
16:31	seangrove	pcn: My coworker made me give up the kinesis for the same reason
16:31	bbloom	technomancy: kenesis man myself
16:31	Glenjamin	i'm gonna have to dig in and see if i can make this sensible again
16:31	technomancy	pcn: https://secure.flickr.com/photos/technomancy/tags/laboratory yeap
16:31	Anderkent	oh sorry didnt see cherry mx
16:31	seangrove	technomancy: That did it, thank you
16:32	technomancy	it's not an office; it's a laboratory =)
16:32	Glenjamin	there's one guy in our office with a mechanical
16:32	pcn	That's nice.
16:32	Glenjamin	lucky for us he's a manager now, so doesn't type much
16:32	technomancy	seangrove: psh; the kinesis is silent compared to this
16:33	pcn	Where'd you get the desk from?
16:33	also	is it normal for leiningen to give the error "Checksum validation failed, no checksums available from the repository" only the first time the dependency is fetched?
16:33	technomancy	pcn: ikea jerker, I think
16:33	seangrove	technomancy: You could just wire your keyboard to play machine-gun fire sound effects whenever you're typing if you're going for a visceral, loud effect
16:34	teslanick	What's the idiomatic way to loop over something with an incrementing index? loop/recur?
16:34	AimHere	You want to feel the machine gun effects too
16:34	gfredericks	Glenjamin: coworker pointed out that `run -m speclj.main` works
16:34	Glenjamin	heh
16:34	Anderkent	teslanic map-indexed ?
16:34	technomancy	seangrove: supposedly having audio feedback in the switch itself can help train you to reduce force to the exact amount required for activation rather than bottoming out every time
16:34	Glenjamin	gfredericks: it's possible to use in a repl too, but a bit fiddly
16:34	pcn	Ah, they don't make taht any more
16:34	technomancy	not really something you can do in software
16:35	technomancy	pcn: I think they just renamed it
16:35	teslanick	Anderkent: thanks. don't know how I didn't see that.
16:35	Anderkent	that's okay
16:38	pcn	technomancy: I think it's dead and gone. The replacements aren't reputed to be as good.
16:39	logic_prog	has ritz been ported to cider, or is it still nrepl only?
16:39	technomancy	pcn: ah, shame
16:39	technomancy	big fan of standing desks
16:41	Raynes	technomancy: Can you tell that Python tooling frustrates me? https://www.refheap.com/27051
16:41	technomancy	Raynes: my deepest condolances
16:42	bbloom	virtualenv is a massive pain
16:43	technomancy	"at least it's not rvm"
16:43	seubert	virtualenvwrapper is fine..
16:43	bbloom	ugh.
16:43	Raynes	Well, my problem is that virtualenv.el expects me to just have a single directory for all my envs.
16:43	Raynes	I'm fine with virtualenv.
16:43	bbloom	doesn't python have PYTHON_PATH or something?
16:43	Raynes	It's also not gonna matter because Python has replaced it in core.
16:43	Raynes	pyvenv yo
16:44	Anderkent	technomancy: +1
16:44	Anderkent	unless you were being sarcastic
16:44	Raynes	Presumably at some point people will grow nads and switch to Python 3 across the board...
16:44	bbloom	meanwhile, plan9 got this right however long ago: union directory mounts > various virtualenv nonsense and PATH variables
16:44	Glenjamin	does it handle multiple pythons, or does it still just do different package loading dirs per app?
16:44	sdegutis	I think Take Me Out should be the official Clojure song, it epitomizes everything Clojure's about, from FP to abstracting sequences: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ijk4j-r7qPA
16:46	pcn	Raynes: python 2 won't dissappear until all of numpy and scipy work
16:48	Anderkent	pcn: it won't dissapear from enterprise even then
16:48	Anderkent	http://www.robg3d.com/?p=1175 etc.
16:49	gozala	dnolen: tbaldridge do you have little bit of time I have some questions in regards to core.async
16:50	pcn	Sure, but by the same token once you only have it in enterprises, it's dead.
16:50	tbaldridge	gozala: sure
16:50	rasmusto	:<
16:50	rasmusto	that's not true of humans, is it?
16:51	pcn	My recollection of being in big enterprises is that all learning stopped when I walked in the door
16:51	logic_prog	tbaldridge: if I want uber clojure debugging tools, do I want ritz or cider?
16:52	logic_prog	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA5zOLCa3Xw <-- anyone know a link for this talk, where, starting at 11:25, the slides aren't suffering from parallax ?
16:53	tbaldridge	logic_prog: there really isn't a good debugger for clojure. You can use JVM debuggers if you want. Most people just get comfortable with smaller functions and the repl
16:53	tbaldridge	not to mention that the Clojure compiler does some stuff that makes debugging with a debugger really hard. For example it clears locals after its done (so the data in the locals can be GC'd)
16:54	gozala	tbaldridge: I’m trying to wrap node IO libs for cljs
16:54	logic_prog	tbaldridge: so the notion of "when an exception happens, fire me up a repl (1) with access to local vars (2) lets me evaluate forms and (3) pick what value to return" is not part of stadard clojure workflow ?
16:54	gozala	and expose channel based APIs
16:54	logic_prog	tbaldridge: the compiler argument makes sense
16:54	tbaldridge	logic_prog: no, and I'm not even sure such a tool exists for clojure
16:54	gozala	tbaldridge: one thing that I çant figure out is what’s idiomatic way to report and handle errors
16:55	technomancy	getting access to locals is not that tricky if you set the point beforehand
16:55	technomancy	https://github.com/technomancy/limit-break
16:55	gozala	tbaldridge: two options I considered were
16:55	tbaldridge	gozala: what I recommend is having a dedicated "error" channel. Report exceptions to that channel and have that channel log them or something.
16:55	technomancy	logic_prog: the difficult part is a stepping debugger
16:55	gozala	1. Make apis that return records with output channel and error channel
16:56	sdegutis	technomancy: ffvii!!
16:56	gozala	2. Make Error protocol an put them on the same result channel
16:56	sdegutis	<3
16:56	logic_prog	tbaldridge , technomancy: this makes sense, I can see how this is easy in "interpreted scheme" but hard in "clj compiled to java"
16:56	technomancy	sdegutis: necessarily
16:56	sdegutis	oh?
16:56	technomancy	logic_prog: the other thing is you have to be in pretty deep in the guts of some nasty stateful code to actually need a stepping debugger in clojure
16:57	technomancy	due to referential transparency everywhere
16:57	logic_prog	technomancy: I can't belive limit-break is just 32 lines of code: https://github.com/technomancy/limit-break/blob/master/src/limit/break.clj
16:57	technomancy	logic_prog: it's pretty, errr... limited
16:57	Anderkent	badumtsss
16:57	danneu	I'm just faking it til I make it with my VPS. If I start a datomic-pro SQL transactor on a remote server, then my local peer connects to the jdbc connection with <remote-ip>:4334 (default port), right?
16:57	gozala	tbaldridge: ok the only inconvenience is that then I end up with ton of APIs that return two channels and on each read one needs to alt! between error and data
16:58	gozala	tbaldridge: I felt like it would be nice to have something built-in
16:58	technomancy	logic_prog: however, its simplicity makes it good for understanding what's really at the core of locals-inspection and possibly building something better from that, should anyone be so inclined
16:58	technomancy	hint hint
16:58	logic_prog	technomancy: yeah, exactly why I'm reading it beacuse it's more instructional than production quality
16:59	gozala	tbaldridge: another question was on how would one communicate back
16:59	logic_prog	technomancy: is there a good nrepl tutorial somewhere where I can play with integrating limit-breka into repl-y, instead of only with stdin repl>
16:59	technomancy	sdegutis: dang now you got me listening to http://ff7.ocremix.org
16:59	Anderkent	logic_prog: reply can do standalone, i think?
16:59	technomancy	logic_prog: unfortunately afaik the details are scattered
17:00	technomancy	beyond just the nrepl readme I mean
17:00	gozala	tbaldridge: what I mean is let’s say (fs/read path) returns a {:output (chan) :error (chan)}
17:00	gozala	tbaldridge: what if consumers want’s sot stop reading from output at some point
17:00	gozala	tbaldridge: Ideally file descriptor should be closed
17:01	gozala	tbaldridge: but how should one communicate intent that it’s done consuming channel
17:01	gozala	tbaldridge: I guess what I’m asking for is something like (take-while p c)
17:01	tbaldridge	gozala: the problem is that the person reading from the channel is very rarely able to do something about the error.
17:02	tbaldridge	gozala: have you read Joe Armstrong's papers on this sort of thing
17:02	logic_prog	tbaldridge , technomancy : I am considering spening today + weekend studying ritz. Is there anything I should know before hand? (Or is this even a good investment of time -- are there known flaws with ritz?)
17:02	gozala	tbaldridge: I have not (do you have a link by a chance)
17:03	sdegutis	technomancy: dang now you got me listening to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfB3aEOWAlk
17:03	gozala	tbaldridge: sure reared will rarely handle errors
17:03	gozala	tbaldridge: but in my frp lib for example I had an error type
17:03	technomancy	logic_prog: the main complaint is that it's difficult to set up and get working, and it's incompatible with cider. I haven't tried it myself.
17:04	tbaldridge	gozala: the first part of this paper is good: http://www.erlang.org/download/armstrong_thesis_2003.pdf
17:04	gozala	so values put on signal if they of error type would thread through high order functions
17:04	tbaldridge	it follows the actor model, but many of the ideas work well in core.async
17:04	gozala	and there were functions like catch that could be used to handle those casess
17:05	sdegutis	technomancy: True story, this is the playlist that runs 8+ hours a day for me: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zyf3814c2tey0oh/bahamut.png
17:05	gozala	tbaldridge: I’ll take a look at the paper
17:05	technomancy	sdegutis: there is no shame
17:06	sdegutis	Also I designed that app. I think like 3 people know it exists.
17:06	gozala	tbaldridge: I think it would be good to have some examples with suggestions on how to handle this kind of stuff though
17:07	Raynes	I swear by pebble for wrist notifications, but I've gotta say, the notification load of this new job and bitemyapp's tweets is going to cause my arm to be perpetually vibrating.
17:09	gozala	tbaldridge: also how about the other question of letting reader communicate with writer that it’s done
17:10	tbaldridge	gozala: when its done it normally will just close the channel.
17:10	gozala	tbaldridge: so you mean reader should (close! input) ?
17:10	gozala	tbaldridge: is that observable for the writer ?
17:11	gozala	tbaldridge: so that it could close error channel and free up resources ?
17:11	teslanick	sdegutis: That's a handsome music player
17:11	sdegutis	teslanick: thx. src: https://github.com/sdegutis/bahamut
17:12	tbaldridge	gozala: yeah, if you're looking for resource type stuff, then yes, there probably needs to be a 2nd channel involved that the writer alts over. When the "shutdown" channel is closed it frees the resources and exits.
17:12	tbaldridge	but it's hard to say without seeing a usecase
17:12	Notte	Would you help me with this function? http://hastebin.com/minuxibira.lisp It should return a lazy-seq of tuples
17:13	Notte	I don't get why i can't realize it even with doall or similar
17:13	gozala	tbaldridge: how would you implement (fs/read path) ?
17:13	gozala	tbaldridge: assuming that content maybe large and there for you would wanna stream it
17:14	gozala	tbaldridge: that’s basically what I’m trying
17:14	jstew	If I have a collection [[1 2] [3 4]], what's a nice way to split them by column so that they're [[1 3][2 4]]? My solution is ugly, and I know there's an elegant way.
17:14	alandipert	Notte: you can use the fact that map takes n colls and do something similar with (map vector colls...), eg
17:14	hyPiRion	jstew: (apply map list ...)
17:14	hyPiRion	,(apply map list [[1 2] [3 4]])
17:14	clojurebot	((1 3) (2 4))
17:14	jstew	wow... very nice!
17:14	gozala	tbaldridge: I can put my current code somewhere if you want to take a look
17:14	hyPiRion	eventually (apply mapv vector ...) if you want them on vector form
17:15	jstew	clojure is so elegant. My solutions thus far haven't been as sexy as they can be. Thanks :)
17:16	Notte	alandipert: i thought about it, but i don't want pair like (a a), (b b)
17:16	Notte	also i really want to understand what i'm doing wrong
17:16	alandipert	Notte: what's an example desired in/out?
17:16	hyPiRion	jstew: It comes with experience, it's hard at first if you've used imperative languages earlier :)
17:17	Notte	alandipert: (tuples [1 2 3]) ; -> [[1 2] [1 3] [2 3]]
17:17	jstew	It's starting to click. I can write clojure, just not "good" clojure yet.
17:17	Glenjamin	gozala: the node streams api is pretty well formed and offers approaches for most of the problems you just mentioned
17:18	Notte	jstew: what docs are you using?
17:18	Glenjamin	i'm not sure channels alone are rich enough to be streams in the node sense
17:19	jstew	hyPiRion: Could you be so kind as to explain how that works? map list makes a list out of hte vector, but apply will do what in that context? I thought apply just sort of flattens a list so that it can be used as args?
17:19	Glenjamin	jstew: yup, it's like * in ruby or ptthon
17:20	jstew	Notte: docs for what?
17:20	Notte	jstew: to learn clojure
17:20	Anderkent	jstew: apply turns it into (map list [1 2] [3 4]). Map then takes the first element from each list, applies list to it (giving (1 3)), then does it again
17:20	Notte	i can't find much online, compared to other languages
17:20	jstew	Notte, 4clojure.org, clojure for the brave and true, and google code jam
17:20	hyPiRion	jstew: (apply map list [[1 2] [3 4]]) is just like (map list [1 2] [3 4]). Since map allow a variadic amount of lists, it works
17:21	jstew	Got it! Thank you both, Anderkent and hyPiRion. you;ve been helpful
17:21	Glenjamin	Notte / jstew http://aphyr.com/tags/Clojure-from-the-ground-up is good also
17:21	technomancy	(inc aphyr)
17:21	lazybot	⇒ 1
17:21	technomancy	...!
17:22	technomancy	I guess he's not on IRC much, but styll
17:22	technomancy	still
17:22	Glenjamin	i suspect lazybot needs some spit/slurp
17:22	hyPiRion	(inc aphyr)
17:22	lazybot	⇒ 2
17:22	hyPiRion	$seen aphyr
17:22	lazybot	aphyr was last seen talking on #riemann 2 hours and 25 minutes ago.
17:22	jstew	technomancy: your nick looks familiar for some reason. Were you a rubyist in the past?
17:23	technomancy	jstew: hush not so loud
17:23	jstew	hah, knew it. :)
17:23	insamniac	It looked familiar to me when I got here, but then I realized it was because of github.
17:23	Notte	Glenjamin: thanks
17:24	rasmusto	technomancy += 1
17:24	Glenjamin	mutable state!
17:24	technomancy	http://thisotplife.tumblr.com/post/63360807823/mutable-data-structures
17:27	Anderkent	OTP?
17:27	Anderkent	Open Telecom Platform? Seems weirdly specific
17:28	ro_st	dnolen: howdy
17:28	technomancy	the reference implementation of erlang is often called OTP
17:28	Anderkent	right. Didn't realize it's all about erlang
17:29	Anderkent	I guess that'll join security reactions and plt life in my rss reader..
17:30	ro_st	what does the t in PLT stand for?
17:31	Anderkent	you know I thought it was theory, but now I figure itmight be a reference to racket?
17:33	gozala	Glenjamin: node streams are like set of channels
17:33	gozala	and they are far from ideal
17:33	gozala	not to mention there’s no syntax support
17:33	hyPiRion	ro_st: theory, theorists
17:33	gozala	that’s why I’m trying to wrap them in core.async flavoured API
17:34	ro_st	aha
17:34	Glenjamin	gozala: i think it's worth exploring, but you'll need quite a few channels
17:34	Glenjamin	streams form a pipeline, to handle backpressure correctly - they're actually more similar to Seqs than core.async i would say
17:35	gozala	Glenjamin: Not necessarily there are two approaches
17:35	gozala	one is more haskelly where you deal with different messages types with actual types
17:35	gozala	or you use multiple channels
17:36	gozala	I’ve done implementation of both approaches in js in a past
17:36	gozala	and kind of prefer former
17:36	ro_st	http://this-plt-life.tumblr.com/post/36425247242/when-i-hear-of-a-lisp-success-in-industry this one
17:36	Glenjamin	in node nowadays it tends to be more common to define things as streams, and use pipe()
17:36	gozala	but I’m not sure how well it maps to core.async
17:36	Glenjamin	i'm unsure which of those categories it fits into
17:37	gozala	Glenjamin: none, they basically have one channel in form of event emitter
17:37	gozala	and event types serve as a channel / message type
17:37	Glenjamin	the client-side examples i've seen from rich have been to attach a single channel to one event listener
17:37	Glenjamin	but i can see how one channel would be simpler
17:38	gozala	Glenjamin: I also think core.async has a lot more saner approach to IO coordination than node’s hard coded backpressuer
17:38	Glenjamin	do channels do backpressure?
17:38	gozala	channel is sync point
17:39	gozala	you can’t write until other end reads
17:39	gozala	and you can make buffered channels
17:39	Glenjamin	right, yes
17:39	gozala	that would allow to buffer
17:39	Glenjamin	so you probably want to work with the .on('readable') api
17:39	Glenjamin	can a channel be closed?
17:39	gozala	Glenjamin: yes
17:40	Glenjamin	then that fits a single channel pretty well, and you just have to deal with errors - i think i've caught up with where you started?
17:40	Glenjamin	can you make a channel throw?
17:40	gozala	tbaldridge so here is a code I’ve being working on https://github.com/Gozala/clojurescript.node/blob/master/src/node/fs.cljs#L149
17:40	mmitchel_	technomancy: For :repositories setting in project.clj -- Is there a way to provide a password for each :repository from the environment?
17:41	gozala	Glenjamin: you don’t throw, but you can make (Errro. message)
17:41	technomancy	mmitchel_: yeah, check out `lein help deploying` under "credentials in the environment"
17:42	gozala	and reader can (if (error? message) (handle error) (do-something message))
17:42	mmitchel_	technomancy: excellent thanks!
17:42	gozala	tbaldridge: in this implementation I box errors in error type
17:43	gozala	rather than implying second channel for errors
17:43	gozala	Initially I tried using two channels instead but felt a lot more hassle
17:44	gozala	tbaldridge: so net module actually uses two channel approach
17:45	gozala	but as you can see from example on readme https://github.com/Gozala/clojurescript.node#examples
17:45	gozala	API tends to become a lot more complex that way
17:46	gozala	that’s why I’m leaning towards elm like approach of using types to distinguish data & errors
17:47	gozala	but then map, filter and all high orders functions would ideally pass through errors otherwise user will need to do it manually
17:48	gozala	tbaldridge: another thing is that consumer is forced to handle errors since it’s on the same channel
17:49	gozala	while with two channel approach it felt like it’s easy to forget you to even handle error channel
17:49	gozala	tbaldridge: does any of my reasoning makes sense to you ?
17:53	tbaldridge	gozala: so this is a rare example where I'm going to recommend something I don't normally recommend.
17:54	tbaldridge	1) box errors and then write a macro that I prefer to call <?, this will create a take and if the value is a boxed error, then re-throw it.
17:55	gozala	tbaldridge: but don’t you think there should be something alike in core.async itself ?
17:55	gozala	I feel like it’s not very exotic use case
17:56	gozala	most of node APIs will have a same concerns
17:56	gozala	tbaldridge: what you suggest actually is very similar to what Task.js does
17:56	gozala	tbaldridge: http://taskjs.org/
17:57	tbaldridge	2) if you use the latest version of core.async >! now returns falsey if the put happens on a closed channel.
17:57	tbaldridge	So with that you can easily write a with-open macro that calls close! when control escapes the current block.
17:58	tbaldridge	That will allow the file reader to detect that the channel is closed and free up resources.
17:58	gozala	tbaldridge: but that means producer will have to waste one read until it knows no writes are possible
17:58	gozala	ideally it would happen prior to that
17:59	gozala	tbaldridge: also ideally producer will still confirm close
17:59	gozala	since there still maybe an error on attempt to free resources
17:59	tbaldridge	gozala: why do you need to confirm freeing of resources?
18:00	tbaldridge	what are you going to do if freeing fails?
18:00	Anderkent	that seems excessive. IF there might be an error, the producer should handle it
18:00	Anderkent	otherwise it's something you cant handle, so why tell the consumer
18:00	tbaldridge	(inc Anderkent)
18:00	lazybot	⇒ 5
18:01	gozala	tbaldridge: Anderkent I see your point, but freeing up resources may take a time
18:01	gozala	so I feel like it’s awkward to pretend that it’s already closed
18:02	gozala	that being said I don’t think it’s a big deal in my case so I can ignore it until I have a better use case
18:03	gozala	tbaldridge: Anderkent don’t you think suggested <? should just be a !<
18:04	gozala	although to be honest I prefer handling cases via cond rather than catch
18:04	tbaldridge	gozala: that's an entire other argument, lol
18:05	tbaldridge	see arguments over Go's error handling (or lack of it)
18:05	gozala	specially since error propagation is not that useful with async code
18:05	Anderkent	I do like cond over catch, but also prefer silent error propagation. I.e. monads!
18:05	tbaldridge	gozala: true, so it's not a bad idea to just box everything into a hashmap and then do cond on it.
18:05	Glenjamin	the node core has a "if you subscribe to error you can have it, if you don't then i'll throw" - is there a parallel to be drawn here?
18:06	gozala	Anderkent: tbaldridge that’s what I’m suggesting though
18:06	tbaldridge	{:op :more-data :value "4444"}
18:06	gozala	if high order functions would just propagate errors
18:07	gozala	Glenjamin: node has domains, and please don’t get me started on them
18:07	tbaldridge	gozala: well there's another argument to be made here. Let's say I have a chain of (-> read-file map filter map output-data)
18:07	Glenjamin	domains are awful
18:07	tbaldridge	each of those being a go block doing some processing
18:07	Glenjamin	even the core devs agree
18:08	tbaldridge	gozala: some would say that an error in any of those should cause read-file to close it's channel, map filter, etc then all close, propagating the close. Then report the error to a single reporting channel.
18:09	gozala	tbaldridge: I think it’s more reasonable to have another control structure to handle that
18:09	tbaldridge	So output-data alts on the error channel and the response. If the response channel closes without sending a response the error channel is read and that generates a 500, or something like that
18:09	gozala	(-> read catch map filter map …)
18:09	gozala	or (-> read map filter map catch)
18:10	gozala	that way user can decided where to handle errors and how
18:10	tbaldridge	gozala: this follows the erlang pattern of "let it die". When things error out you crash the entire request/response chain and report the error to a central channel.
18:10	gozala	that how most reactive libs deal with that
18:11	gozala	tbaldridge: now that I think about it’s fine
18:11	gozala	it’s actually the same
18:11	gozala	as long as you have something like catch control structure to deal with recovery
18:12	gozala	tbaldridge: so only diff is weather channel should be closed on errors or not
18:13	gozala	I’d be fine with either option
18:14	Glenjamin	i don't think you should be taking data off a stream that has errored, so i would vote for closed
18:15	gozala	tbaldridge: Anderkent so are there any chances to incorporate something like this into core.async ?
18:16	tbaldridge	like what?
18:18	gozala	tbaldridge: like incorporate some error support
18:18	gozala	catch style control structure
18:18	gozala	and special handling of errors
18:18	gozala	which can abort tasks and report errors as you suggested
18:19	gozala	ms rx has such catch like control structure
18:20	tbaldridge	the problem is, this use case doesn't really fit well with how core.async is normally used. The idea behind core.async is to turn deep call stacks into linear data flows. This sort of error propagation doesn't really fit with that model.
18:20	tbaldridge	the adaption of node.js to core.async is a very interesting use case, but I'm not convinced what we've come up with here is the best solution.
18:21	tbaldridge	The better route is something were we can add monitoring of go blocks. Erlang does this via supervisor trees, where you can say "if this block dies, kill me" or "if this block dies, let me know".
18:21	gozala	tbaldridge: to me core.async is lower layer to reactive programming like ms rx
18:22	tbaldridge	That allows you to turn your entire HTTP request/response chain into a single dataflow that will crash/cleanup if a single error occurs, which is exactly what you want most of the time.
18:23	gozala	tbaldridge: that’s fine too
18:23	gozala	but some way to communicate errors is necessary, is kind of my point
18:23	gozala	tbaldridge: at the moment if producer has an error there’s nothing in core.async to support that
18:24	tbaldridge	gozala: sure there is, the producer sends an error to a channel. build whatever you want on top of that.
18:25	tbaldridge	It's a design decision for the library to not go any further than that. We don't want to dictate how errors should be handled.
18:25	gozala	tbaldridge: ok
18:26	gozala	tbaldridge: only issue with that is built in control structures won’t do anything on errors
18:27	gozala	so libraries will have to build their own control structures to support errors
18:27	gozala	which may be ok too
18:28	gozala	tbaldridge: for example generators in JS sort of solve the same problems as core.async
18:28	gozala	buth they allow user to throw in exceptions
18:29	gozala	I kind feel this is what missing
18:29	tbaldridge	If I were building a node.js interface, I would probably sit and think for about a month on how I might want to handle exceptions. Should they be handled, by whom? Why do we need to handle exceptions, etc. When code starts to get ugly, I like to go back and re-think my assumptions. If the code doesn't "feel right" perhaps I'm wrapping the API in the wrong way.
18:30	Glenjamin	i always thought that core.async was to solve the problem of decoupling bits of your application, and the callback soup was a handy side benefit
18:30	Glenjamin	the problem with reading from a stream is that you are actually somewhat coupled to the stream's state
18:30	gozala	tbaldridge: I have being thinking about it for 2 years now :P
18:31	tbaldridge	Glenjamin: agreed
18:31	gozala	started with https://github.com/Gozala/streamer
18:31	gozala	then moved to https://github.com/Gozala/streduce
18:31	Glenjamin	this is why Node.js has "evolved" a whole new set of libraries and abstractions around streams, separate from callbacks - it's still young and experimental
18:31	gozala	and then to https://github.com/Gozala/elmjs
18:31	Glenjamin	but there's people playing with lots of approaches
18:32	gozala	plus explored all the other reactive things that came up like ms rx, elm
18:32	dnolen	gozala: generators are even more low level than core.async, and you can throw exceptions in core.async too.
18:32	gozala	dnolen: how can producer of channel communicate error with a consumer ?
18:33	dnolen	gozala: many ways exactly the same as generators
18:33	gozala	dnolen: I agree generators are more low level
18:33	dnolen	gozala: generators don't dictate anything
18:33	gozala	dnolen: generators have g.next and g.throw
18:33	gozala	later throws in exception into routine
18:34	gozala	how one can throw in exception into go routine ?
18:34	dnolen	gozala: yes really low level, you gotta do something different if you want to use promises + generators, or channels + generators
18:34	Glenjamin	gozala: are you familar with caolan as in caolan/async?
18:35	gozala	dnolen: I really just want a channels, but with some error reporting support from the data producer side
18:35	dnolen	gozala: as people have already said, dictating something is pretty unwise given differing needs for different applications
18:35	gozala	there are some adhok ways
18:36	dnolen	gozala: I've done error channels stuff and supervisor stuff, both are appropriate sometimes
18:36	gozala	dnolen: maybe seeing those examples would help
18:36	dnolen	gozala: or try it yourself :)
18:37	gozala	dnolen: also adding some error reporting support does not prevents supervisor stuff I think
18:37	gozala	dnolen: I did that, that’s why I’m trying to get more input from people like you :P
18:39	gozala	ok I guess I’ll try to finish version with boxed errors on a channel & we’ll see from there
18:39	gozala	Glenjamin: yeas I’m aware of async not a fan
18:39	tbaldrid_	gozala: also remember that core.async channels are multi writer, unlike rx which is (for the most part) single writer
18:40	gozala	tbaldridge: although you can mix multiple channels in rx so it’s really just defaults
18:40	tbaldridge	Imagine your surprise if you have two producers writing to a single map channel. One producer errors, and sends an error to map. Map then passes the error on and exits.
18:41	tbaldridge	Now the 2nd producer tries to write but the other end is dead.
18:41	Glenjamin	gozala: well caolan has been working on trying to implement decent map/filter/reduce type functions for node streams lately, and strugging with these same issues
18:41	bbloom	tbaldridge: the Rx source is available & i looked at it closely. i was like "holy crap. so much error propagation logic!"
18:41	Glenjamin	i wasn't suggesting async.js was helpful for this problem :)
18:41	gozala	tbaldridge: tbaldridge other end maybe dead either way though no ?
18:42	gozala	if consumer closed it’s end it’s kind of dead
18:42	bbloom	tbaldridge: Rx existed prior to async was in C# too, so there's tons of manual state machines. it's pretty horrific in hindsight
18:42	egghead	dnolen: ping
18:42	dnolen	egghead: saw your question earlier, only associative data structures in the app state for Om
18:42	gozala	Glenjamin: https://github.com/Gozala/reducers are monadic
18:42	gozala	and they do work with node streams
18:43	gozala	if you import https://github.com/Gozala/streduce
18:43	egghead	dnolen: ya I didn't know that '() wasn't associative but [] was, I figured because you could nth on both of them
18:43	tbaldridge	gozala: actually, the core.async code in master is written to shutdown when the channel the writer is producing to is closed. So closing channels the the "idiomatic" way to terminate processes in core.async.
18:43	gozala	Glenjamin: all of the back pressure etc is preserved
18:43	egghead	om is awesome but I was so frustrated last night trying to figure out why om was saying my data wasn't a valid cursor :p
18:44	dnolen	egghead: i've documented this restriction in several places
18:44	egghead	my fault then
18:44	gozala	tbaldridge: sorry I did not quite got the last comment
18:44	gozala	you mean idiomatic way to close channel is from producer side you mean ?
18:46	egghead	dnolen: I see it now here: https://github.com/swannodette/om/wiki/Documentation#wiki-root -- I was just unaware that for example the result of 'map' isnt something that is associative
18:46	egghead	or the result of a for comprehension or something similar
18:46	dnolen	egghead: Clojure documentation says they return lazy seqs
18:47	tbaldridge	gozala: in the code in master, it's idiomatic to do it from either side. Both sides should be watching for the channel to close, and shutdown when it happens.
18:47	dnolen	egghead: other people have encountered this before, but there's not much I can do about it. I wan't to enforce associative data structures for future perf reasons.
18:49	dsrx	,(doc bean)
18:49	clojurebot	"([x]); Takes a Java object and returns a read-only implementation of the map abstraction based upon its JavaBean properties."
18:49	egghead	dnolen: I'm not against the restriction, maybe the docs could be more explicit and say 'For practical purposes this means you can only use vectors and maps, but not lists or lazy seqs'
18:49	dnolen	egghead: sure can do that.
18:49	gozala	tbaldridge: is core.reactive is a thing ? maybe core.async is too low level for what I’m trying to do
18:50	gozala	tbaldridge: Asking because I noticed your repo
18:51	tbaldridge	gozala: oh, that repo is super old.
18:51	tbaldridge	it predates core.async by a few years.
18:52	tbaldridge	gozala: as to my point, onto-chan is a producer that shuts down when the channel closes: https://github.com/clojure/core.async/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/async.clj#L615
18:52	dsrx	,(instance? clojure.lang.Associative (map identity [1]))
18:52	clojurebot	false
18:53	egghead	dsrx: obvious when you know it :p
18:54	rasmusto	dsrx: ##(associative? (map identity [1]))
18:54	lazybot	⇒ false
18:57	Glenjamin	is there a better way to get it back into a vector than just calling (vec) on the Seq?
18:57	rasmusto	##(associative? (mapv identity [1]))
18:57	lazybot	⇒ true
18:58	Glenjamin	aha
18:59	rasmusto	Glenjamin: assuming you're doing a map
18:59	Glenjamin	mm
18:59	Glenjamin	found the related variants
19:00	rasmusto	is there one for hash-maps?
19:00	Glenjamin	(mapv identity {:a :b})
19:00	Glenjamin	,(mapv identity {:a :b})
19:00	clojurebot	[[:a :b]]
19:02	rasmusto	,(let [a {:a :b}] (into (empty a) (map identity a)))
19:02	clojurebot	{:a :b}
19:02	Glenjamin	(into {} (map identity {:a :b :c :d}))
19:02	Glenjamin	,(into {} (map identity {:a :b :c :d}))
19:02	clojurebot	{:a :b, :c :d}
19:02	rasmusto	Glenjamin: hi5
19:02	Glenjamin	o/
19:04	Glenjamin	which is basically what mapv does \o/ https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/c6756a8bab137128c8119add29a25b0a88509900/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L6232
19:05	rasmusto	mine gives you back the same coll type that you started with, which might be useful? Maybe mapv is moreso because you know what you're getting out
19:05	Glenjamin	mapmap would be a rubbish name, i guess
19:05	rasmusto	mashmap
19:06	technomancy	mapmap would be a great name
19:06	rasmusto	yeah, map vs hash-map is a hard thing to explain
19:06	Glenjamin	add it to core! that's easy to do, right?
19:06	rasmusto	mapmap is a good name, assuming you're OK with map as a coll name
19:06	technomancy	in mapmap it's at least clear you mean both meanings =)
19:06	rasmusto	true
19:06	rasmusto	but in which order?
19:07	dsrx	oh i know, call it collectmap[
19:07	dsrx	:p
19:07	rasmusto	mapm, alternatively maph
19:08	rasmusto	maph.numeric-tower
19:08	Glenjamin	i guess it's too late to rename Map to Dict :p
19:09	bbloom	Glenjamin: heh, i've had that thought too, but for some reason "dict" implies to me that the keys are strings
19:09	bbloom	shrug dunno why
19:09	Glenjamin	ah, i can see that
19:09	technomancy	"Dictionary" is too many syllables
19:10	bbloom	technomancy: that's why python people just call them "dicts"
19:10	technomancy	"Dict" invites too many jr. high jokes
19:10	Glenjamin	Mapping perhaps?
19:10	bbloom	factor calls a map an "assoc"
19:11	bbloom	but i've found that awkward to say, since my brain reads "assoc" as a verb
19:11	rasmusto	(assoc (dict :a 1))
19:11	bbloom	association vs associate
19:11	btcNeverSleeps	Hey all... I've got a question regarding the kinda "long" stacktrace, and this question and its answer: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/14297079/ ("Why are Clojure stacktraces so long?")
19:12	Glenjamin	i blame the map function
19:12	Glenjamin	i suppose they both do the same thing, so that's the main issue
19:12	btcNeverSleeps	Isn't the way the Clojure code (and Clojure Java code) decided not to use many checked exception a major reason for the long stacktraces?
19:13	btcNeverSleeps	(btw this isn't a criticism of runtime exceptions: I'm just asking if "doing without checked exception" is, or not, a big reason for long stacktraces)
19:13	bbloom	btcNeverSleeps: whether or not exceptions are checked has nothing (theoretically) to do with the length of a stack trace
19:13	Anderkent	btcNeverSleeps: not really. it's just that because of its dynamicity (ww?) the stacks are necessarily deep
19:14	bbloom	however, in practice, checked exceptions tend to cause a lot of re-throwing and exception swallowing, both of which will shorten visible stack traces, but are generally a bad idea
19:14	Anderkent	and recursion doesnt help either
19:14	Anderkent	bbloom: eh, they just separate the stack trace into X (20 lines) caused by Y (40 lines) cause dby ...
19:14	Anderkent	unless you eat the cause in which case you're evil
19:14	bbloom	Anderkent: indeed
19:15	btcNeverSleeps	(semi-related): when you code in Clojure (on the JVM), are there any checked exceptions that can happen and that you'd then be forced to catch?
19:16	bbloom	btcNeverSleeps: no. checked exceptions are an illusion of the java compiler. they are not a JVM byte code feature
19:16	btcNeverSleeps	and what happens in Clojure if I do Java interop and use a Java method that, in a .java, would refuse to compile if I didn't catch the exception?
19:17	bbloom	btcNeverSleeps: only the java compiler checks exceptions. neither the JVM nor the clojure compiler checks exceptions.
19:18	btcNeverSleeps	so if the checked exception is thrown, I end up with a checked exception manifesting itself as a runtime exception?
19:19	bbloom	btcNeverSleeps: if by "manifest" you mean "be raised at runtime" then yes. if you mean "magically becoming a subclass of the RuntimeException class" then no
19:21	socksy	not exactly a clojure question, but does anyone know how to speed up infoq videos? Rich Hickey can talk quite slowly
19:21	bbloom	socksy: use the extra time between words to reflect on what he's saying :-)
19:22	bbloom	rich isn't some awful professor whose class you skip and watch later at 2X speed just to make sure you know what's going to be on the test
19:23	bbloom	every one of his talks are worth the time to watch and then some
19:23	socksy	I have the attention span of a gnat, and inevitably my mind starts to wonder and I end up having to rewind and watch the same sentence again and again. I don't get that when the video is sped up :)
19:24	socksy	*wander
19:24	bbloom	heh.... ok
19:24	technomancy	socksy: you can download infoq videos if you change your browser user-agent
19:24	bbloom	does it wonder to things related to what he's talking about?
19:25	bbloom	if your wandering mind is at least somewhat on topic, that's probably fine to rewind a bunch :-)
19:25	socksy	I'm not sure...
19:25	socksy	technomancy: useful info, thanks
19:26	btcNeverSleeps	,(.getBytes "a" "non-existing-encoding")
19:26	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>
19:29	ivan	socksy: there are three infoq downloaders, but none can put the slides next to the video
19:29	ivan	one can replace the video with the slides
19:29	ivan	https://github.com/cykl/infoqscraper https://github.com/mtayseer/infoq-downloader https://github.com/rg3/youtube-dl
19:37	steckerhalter	any idea why reading a file with (slurp "file.txt" :encoding "UTF-8") that contains one 4-byte utf-8 character prints a string with 4 characters?
19:40	alxlit	ivan: infoqscraper can, get it from master
19:41	ivan	steckerhalter: maybe you've got a double-encoded UTF-8 file?
19:42	alxlit	ivan: infoqscraper presentation download --type h246_overlay or something like that
19:43	steckerhalter	ivan: not sure what double encoded means, but I created the file myself containg just that utf-8 character in 4 bytes
19:44	ivan	steckerhalter: does ls -l confirm that it's 4 (or 5) bytes?
19:44	steckerhalter	ivan: yes, 4
19:44	ivan	alxlit: thanks. will try after I figure out the python 2/3 mess within
19:45	steckerhalter	xxd -b file >>> 0000000: 11110101 10100111 10111101 10110101 ....
19:46	steckerhalter	maybe it just can't deal with 4 bytes or something?
19:49	steckerhalter	ok, hmm... emacs displays one character, gedit says it's invald
19:49	steckerhalter	õ§½µ
19:50	ivan	Python says
19:50	ivan	UnicodeDecodeError: 'utf8' codec can't decode byte 0xf5 in position 0: invalid start byte
19:54	steckerhalter	well, that is 0xf5 should be valid looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-8
19:55	steckerhalter	s/that is//
19:58	ivan	steckerhalter: that table refers to some obsolete original design
19:58	steckerhalter	ivan: yeah, it could be the restriction kicking in
19:59	AeroNotix	what can I do if I want to run a test suite with profiling enable?
19:59	AeroNotix	enabled*
19:59	AeroNotix	is there a plugin with lein test?
19:59	Anderkent	AeroNotix: what kind of profiling?
19:59	Anderkent	timbre?
20:00	AeroNotix	Anderkent: memory, cpu, call tracing
20:00	AeroNotix	Anderkent: never used timbre
20:00	Anderkent	oh, some jvm agent?
20:00	AeroNotix	jvm agent?
20:01	Anderkent	well, what are you going to use to profile it
20:01	Anderkent	there's jvm profilers like yourkit etc
20:01	AeroNotix	ok
20:01	Anderkent	these work by attaching an agent ot the jvm, they will tell you what options to add to a process
20:01	Anderkent	then you just pass these to :jvm-opts in lein
20:01	AeroNotix	gotcha, ok
20:01	Anderkent	or alternatively oyu can use a native clojure profiling lib like timbre
20:02	AeroNotix	Thanks for the info
20:02	Anderkent	that works by wrapping your code
20:02	Anderkent	no worries :)
20:02	AeroNotix	timbre looks like it can do individual form profiling, which is cool
20:02	steckerhalter	ivan: ok, got it, it's out of bounds after RFC 3629. thanks
20:04	Anderkent	steckerhalter: yeah it says 'octet values c0 c1 f5 to ff never appear'. I wonder what purpose that has
20:06	steckerhalter	Anderkent: the limitation?
20:33	akurilin	Is it generally a poor idea to cache data on (def) calls because of the potentially varying order in which this can happen?
20:34	akurilin	e.g. I have a very static table in the db which I want to cache into a var on my app's boot. Doing it in a def seems potentially risky.
20:35	akurilin	Or I guess not necessarily. Should I consider exporting this to some kind of "init function"?
20:44	Morgawr	how would I test if a vector contains an element?
20:45	Morgawr	I could write my own function with empty? and filter but there probably is a function that does that...?
20:46	arrdem	what SQL layer(s) are people using?
20:46	arrdem	all I'm really finding is korman and java.jdbc..
20:48	akurilin	I'm using both. Korma for the boring crud or any time I need to translate something procedurally to a query, and cjj for complex queries.
20:55	dee5	What's the normal way of running a leiningen task in the background?
20:58	hiredman	don't?
20:58	dee5	:(
20:59	hiredman	if you want to run some lein uberjar up an uberjar and run that
20:59	hiredman	something
20:59	dee5	Alright thanks
21:16	x^2	im reading through the O'Reilly clojure book
21:16	x^2	and i understand a lot of the syntax of this now
21:16	x^2	but im just tryingg to better understand
21:16	x^2	does Clojure completely abandon the idea of anything object/struct like, and instead carry on through functions passing data to other functions?
21:16	x^2	or can anyone give me some insight on this
21:16	x^2	i am kind of reading through, and i understand how to do basic things
21:17	x^2	but i dont feel like i "get" the big picture on this yet
21:17	x^2	maybe someone here can shed some light on that
21:19	dnolen	x^2: there are object/struct like things in the language - but it's common to encourage people to not reach for them unless they really need it.
21:20	hiredman	dnolen: maps are used all the time
21:20	hiredman	x^2: it depends what you mean by object/struct
21:21	x^2	i mean like
21:21	hiredman	generally clojure code tends to pass around values (immutable data) and call functions on them
21:21	hiredman	er
21:21	x^2	enclosure of data basically
21:21	hiredman	call functions with them as the arguments
21:21	x^2	i know about vectors and stuff
21:21	x^2	like
21:22	x^2	i feel i can write some very basic things right now
21:22	x^2	but i want to make them in the clojure way
21:22	hiredman	yeah, so vectors and maps and seqs and functions
21:22	hiredman	that is how you do it
21:22	x^2	i dont want to be writing java or C++ using clojure if you know what i mean.
21:22	x^2	okay
21:22	x^2	this seems like a really wonderful language
21:22	x^2	i get bored reading about ones that are so similar
21:22	x^2	but all of these new ideas have me really excited
21:23	x^2	i am just trying to think of something now i could write to put the ideas of clojure to good use
21:23	Morgawr	try writing a LightTable plugin :P
21:23	Morgawr	it's fun
21:23	Morgawr	and not that hard
21:23	x^2	im not sure what that is, and ive only written a couple very basic programs before. so i might want to start at something above a 'hello world'
21:23	x^2	but not much above
21:23	x^2	lol
21:23	Morgawr	https://github.com/mdhaney/lt-plugin-template <-- a template for LT plugins
21:24	Morgawr	LightTable is an editor written in Clojure (for clojure and other languages)
21:24	Morgawr	but yeah, just get familiarized with the language, I guess a plugin might be too complex
21:24	x^2	ooo
21:24	x^2	yeah for now i think
21:24	dnolen	Morgawr: well ClojureScript :)
21:24	Morgawr	it's a pretty neat editor, really extensible, I'm loving it
21:24	x^2	i am developing using lein- do you think this is a good idea?
21:24	teslanick	I spent a few weeks banging around in LightTable just to get acquainted with the language.
21:24	Morgawr	dnolen: well, still Clojure :P
21:24	teslanick	Lein is definitely the thing for development in clojure.
21:25	x^2	alright well im off to a start then lol
21:26	x^2	also - i have one question of logistics, i guess
21:26	x^2	in my lein project directory
21:26	x^2	or rather
21:27	x^2	let me start over: i have a directory called "hello" for a basic hello world project
21:27	x^2	and in the /src folder, i have:
21:27	x^2	i have a "hello" folder, with core.clj
21:27	x^2	that reads:
21:28	x^2	(ns hello.core (:gen-class))
21:28	x^2	(defn greet[who] (println (str "Hello " who "!")))
21:28	x^2	(defn -main[who] (greet who))
21:28	x^2	so obviously in this core.clj, i have one regular function and my main functio
21:28	x^2	n
21:28	x^2	how do people usually lay these things out in lein?
21:28	x^2	like would someone put a bunch of other functions and main in the core.clj?
21:28	x^2	or would they usually split it up into different files
21:29	teslanick	A file contains one (or sometimes more) namespaces. But a file contains the same namespace as the file name.
21:29	s4muel	Like that. Look at project.clj you'll see a :main entry. Usually you split up files by namespace, like example if you have a client server app you'd have (ns foo.client) and (ns foo.server) in src/client.clj and src/server.clj
21:29	teslanick	So really you'd be dividing functions up across namespaces related to what they do.
21:30	teslanick	By way of example, Clojure has clojure.core, clojure.string, clojure.zip, clojure.pprint, etc.
21:31	teslanick	Where core has most of the common functionality, and each of the others have functions specialized to a particular task (strings, tree structures, and pretty-printing respectively)
21:32	s4muel	Indeedy. There's nothing preventing you from throwing it all in one giant file, either, per se. It is just a matter of style and organization. Take a look at some of the more popular libs to see how they are organized (or as teslanick points out, clojure itself)
21:32	x^2	YEhmmm, okay
21:32	x^2	i was going to do that, look at some of what is out there
21:33	teslanick	A lot of the popular libs are relatively easy to read; as you may have noticed, Clojure is very terse.
21:33	s4muel	Of course, file paths do come into play when you start adding test frameworks and working more with leiningen in terms of advanced build/compilation stuff. Depends, again, on what you're using.
21:34	x^2	yeah, that is all very confusing to me right now
21:34	x^2	now i would like to ask
21:34	x^2	for a beginning 'first' project, would it be okay to put everything (inluding main) in that core.clj and just work off of that?
21:35	x^2	for a relatively small project, of course
21:35	x^2	with just a few functions most likely
21:35	teslanick	Yeah. You can break it up into namespaces later if it grows.
21:35	x^2	okay, cool
21:35	teslanick	I've been writing stuff in little clj files scattered across my desktop and copy them into my project when I think they're done.
21:36	x^2	so you just write them in separate clj files, put them in the same directory, and build?
21:36	x^2	(simplifying, of course)
21:39	teslanick	Well, I write a bunch of related functions and test them together, then copy the file into the project and give it a namespace.
21:39	teslanick	Because LightTable doesn't care about projects, you can just live-eval stuff as you're working to build things incrementally. The amount of boilerplate necessary is basically nil
21:40	x^2	hmm, okay.
21:40	x^2	i do really like the REPL environment, too
21:40	x^2	it seems very cool.
21:45	teslanick	I should say that I'm very much a Clojure neophyte myself
21:46	teslanick	The REPL is pretty neat, though the thing that gets me is connecting to a running application and manipulating its state as its operating.
21:48	x^2	i've heard you can do that
21:48	x^2	i have no idea how yet
21:48	x^2	but i have seen that as a feature of clojure
21:48	x^2	which amazes me
21:48	x^2	it must tie back to the 'code as data' idea, right?
21:49	x^2	in that you can just feed some 'data' (being code) into an application, and it is evaluated like anything else.
21:49	teslanick	Also that mutable state is called out very explicitly.
21:49	x^2	oo
21:50	teslanick	And altering stateless components is relatively safe.
21:50	arrdem	if I wanted a doseq with a carry-forwards state that's for, right?
21:50	arrdem	sorry. loop/recur
22:02	gfredericks	arrdem: I have no idea what that means
22:03	arrdem	gfredericks: I was refactoring a doseq and realized that I really wanted an eager reduce, which is just for with some destructuring.
22:03	arrdem	gfredericks: that was as much me muttering to myself as anything :/
22:03	mklappstuhl	curious how the parsing of namespaced function calls like (string/split ...) works in clojure
22:04	hiredman	parsing?
22:04	mklappstuhl	is the parse looking for a slash and than splitting the string?
22:04	arrdem	mklappstuhl: fully qualified symbols are written ns.sub-ns.sub-sub-ns/symbol
22:04	hiredman	oh, how symbols are read?
22:04	mklappstuhl	hiredman: sorry — reading is probably more appropriate
22:05	mklappstuhl	ah
22:05	quizdr	this just blew my mind: #(reduce deliver f %&)
22:06	mklappstuhl	so basically if you use :require [clojure.string :as str] it basically maps str to clojure.str
22:06	hiredman	that has nothing to do with reading though
22:07	hiredman	at read time foo/bar is just a symbol with namespace slot foo and a name slot bar
22:07	gfredericks	quizdr: what on earth is that useful for
22:07	hiredman	same with str/foo
22:07	hiredman	,(read-string "str/foo")
22:07	clojurebot	str/foo
22:07	gfredericks	,(read-string "doesn't/exist")
22:07	clojurebot	doesn't/exist
22:07	quizdr	gfredericks it was amalloy's answer to a problem on 4clojure; I think pretty crafty. more elegant.
22:08	x^2	,(read-string "testfunc")
22:08	clojurebot	testfunc
22:08	teslanick	quizdr: What was the problem?
22:08	gfredericks	quizdr: ooh he must be taking advantage of the impl
22:08	mklappstuhl	hiredman: I guess my terminology was wrong
22:08	quizdr	impl? what do you mean?
22:08	gfredericks	deliver is supposed to be for promises but functions as a generic call function
22:08	gfredericks	,(deliver inc 42)
22:08	clojurebot	43
22:09	gfredericks	^ not what deliver is for
22:09	quizdr	oh i see.
22:09	gfredericks	there'd be no reason to even suspect it would do that without reading the source
22:09	gfredericks	which is what I meant by "impl"
22:09	quizdr	the doc mentions it as "alpha" anyway and "subject to change" so probably not a good idea to depend on it as habit
22:09	quizdr	"impl" = "implementation" ?
22:09	gfredericks	no not for use in production 4clojure
22:09	gfredericks	yes
22:10	quizdr	it's amazing to see the paradigm shift among programmers on that site when reviewing others' answers. so many still use loop/recur with a single line alternative does the trick with 25% as much code. fascinating.
22:10	quizdr	*when a single line alternative...
22:11	quizdr	my main take away from those execersizes is that the vast majority of the time, when I approach a problem with a loop in mind, strong liklihood there is a more elegant way instead.
22:11	gfredericks	yep
22:14	bbloom	quizdr: i frequently write loops then look at them and say "now what does that actually do?" before refactoring it
22:14	bbloom	sometimes, i know the algorithm & don't need laziness, but don't know what it is called until i see it
22:15	mklappstuhl	I'd love to see a blog that features small overly complex code snippets and then simplifies them reading that, quizdr
22:15	teslanick	Speaking of which, is there any clojure-oriented code review groups out there? The clojure tag on codereview.stackexchange is pretty dead.
22:16	teslanick	I see the clojure a coworker can write, and I feel like Phillip Fry with a Holophonor
22:17	insamniac	lol
22:17	insamniac	you're not alone
22:19	ivan	I can confirm that infoqscraper finally does the right thing, if you download a recent ffmpeg build and run PYTHONPATH=. python bin/infoqscraper presentation download --ffmpeg ./ffmpeg --type h264_overlay core-async-clojure
22:20	ivan	the aspect ratio on the video recording is slightly off but that is ignorable or fixable
22:25	quizdr	mklappstuhl just perusing the solutions at 4clojure will give you all you need to know and more, it's a fantastic learning resource
22:25	quizdr	of course, you can't see the solutions until you've come up with one of your own!
22:27	mklappstuhl	quizdr: yeah probably thats better for learning, coming up w/ sth on your own first
22:28	quizdr	being able to mix map, apply, reduce all in a single line of code is really extraordinary, all these tools available for genuine creativity. if you ask a c++ person to write a particular function, most of them will do it more or less the same way, because there aren't as many options. but these lisps bring ideas to the surface and really open up the process in ways i've never seen before. i really had no idea what computer programming
22:28	quizdr	could be until i discovered this stuff
22:30	quizdr	i know i'm preaching to the choir, but not having to think about low-level details and also getting to increase the thinking/typing ratio when coding has really spoiled me quickly.
22:31	insamniac	Yeah I follow a bunch of people on 4clojure, and it's crazy to see the variety of ways one can approach a problem.
22:32	insamniac	To be honest, I'm still uncomfortable with the freedom.
22:33	quizdr	insamniac i think that will change as you master the various functions. for me i simply don't know what a lot of those functions are, so I resort to basically implementing them on my own to solve a problem, hence why loop/recur ends up getting more air time than it deserves. then I see code on there that uses cool little built-in tools and i realize I should be memorizing the clojure.core API!
22:33	gfredericks	random function you don't know about yet: fnil
22:34	quizdr	,(doc fnil)
22:34	insamniac	true story
22:34	clojurebot	"([f x] [f x y] [f x y z]); Takes a function f, and returns a function that calls f, replacing a nil first argument to f with the supplied value x. Higher arity versions can replace arguments in the second and third positions (y, z). Note that the function f can take any number of arguments, not just the one(s) being nil-patched."
22:34	quizdr	wow
22:34	insamniac	i remember when i first saw juxt and got all giggly.
22:34	gfredericks	,(update-in {:foo 12} [:bar :baz] (fnil conj #{}) 42)
22:34	clojurebot	{:bar {:baz #{42}}, :foo 12}
22:37	quizdr	that's an eye-full
22:38	gfredericks	I've mostly only used it to add things to collections that might be nil
22:39	dsrx	,(doc fnil)
22:39	clojurebot	"([f x] [f x y] [f x y z]); Takes a function f, and returns a function that calls f, replacing a nil first argument to f with the supplied value x. Higher arity versions can replace arguments in the second and third positions (y, z). Note that the function f can take any number of arguments, not just the one(s) being nil-patched."
22:42	teslanick	One thing I've noticed -- and maybe this is because I write clojure after work but before bed -- is that I have really weird dreams about homoiconicity
22:44	quizdr	telansick actually i kid you not so have i. when i first discovered common lisp, i was dreaming about it at night for several days.
22:44	quizdr	almost like discovering a drug, to be honest.
22:44	technomancy	quizdr: I had a fever like that once
22:45	quizdr	technomancy ha i got the clojure fever every day, son!
22:45	technomancy	I dreamed I was implementing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puyo_Puyo_(series) in emacs lisp as a derived mode of M-x tetris
22:45	quizdr	really, you too? that's quite a coincidence
22:45	technomancy	it was a really high fever
22:46	quizdr	...they always are
22:47	teslanick	I think my brain made the linguistic connection between homo-iconic and homo-sapiens, so I was dreaming of humans implemented as self-modifying s-expressions. I also haven't been sleeping well, so maybe there's a connection.
22:50	quizdr	i went to a lecture last night, the guy runs a company where they treat the brain as a computer that runs software programmed by nature over large stretches of natural selection, proposing that modern day problems already have solutions in the software. they use Haskell.
22:51	quizdr	to uncover what the software actually is, they look at statistical analysis of historical problems and how they resolved, using that as evidence of what the inner implementations might be. almost seems like decurrying to me.
22:51	teslanick	That's a little arrogant, but then… haskell. ;)
22:51	technomancy	that sounds like one of the talks I heard at strangeloop
22:53	quizdr	check it out http://www.appliedcognitivescience.com/
22:53	quizdr	well, looks like there isn't much there on the site
22:54	quizdr	he used topology to showcase the ivention of functors
22:56	quizdr	in which I discovered that the word "functor" in haskell has a completely different meaning than the same word in c++ :)
23:01	KeithPM	Good day all. I am trying to figure out why I am not receiving any input from the following function. (compute-winnings-for-a-trial n ) works on its own https://gist.github.com/kpmaynard/8611605
23:02	TEttinger	KeithPM, conj doesn't change acc
23:02	TEttinger	so you return the original acc, []
23:02	TEttinger	you need to just take out the acc after that compute-winnings call
23:02	quizdr	KeithPM yes remember all data is immutable. you should just pass the conj statemet to recur
23:03	quizdr	or whatever is appropriate
23:03	KeithPM	TEttinger: Yes, yes… Bad error :)
23:03	TEttinger	err I think I read it wrong btw
23:05	KeithPM	TEttinger: I think I should perform the conj within the recur...
23:06	quizdr	KeithPM yes that would be a good way
23:06	quizdr	alternately you could use a let form up top if you need the conj result more than once
23:07	KeithPM	quizdr: OK let within the loop right?
23:08	quizdr	only if you need the conj result more than once, you could put a let in there yes
23:08	TEttinger	oh and when I ran it the loop never terminated?
23:08	TEttinger	not sure what condition it should end on, but I'm guessing m <= 0
23:08	akurilin	Does anybody know of a guide for how to set up running unit test from the repl, including reloading the project if it needs to be.
23:09	KeithPM	TEttinger: Really? But I'm decrementing m each time… Hmmmm
23:09	KeithPM	TEttinger: Thanks, I will look in to that problem
23:10	quizdr	you are decrementing m each time, but where is the exit? the recur is outside of your if test
23:10	quizdr	KeithPM ^
23:12	quizdr	KeithPM you don't need a let because looks like you are only conj when you recur, so put your conj in the recur only.
23:12	quizdr	you could replace your current conj form with the recur form to move recur inside the if test, and put the conj inside the recur.
23:13	TEttinger	try https://gist.github.com/tommyettinger/8611744 , KeithPM
23:13	KeithPM	quizdr: I agree, The idea is that I would loop to the loop point, with m decremented. If m becomes 0 the else-part should be executed, I think
23:14	quizdr	if you are going to recur, you a test inside the loop where the result is not a recur, or else you have an infinite loop.
23:14	KeithPM	quizdr: Yes, I am trying that, recurring in the then-part and returning acc in the else-part
23:14	quizdr	currently, recur is always getting called no matter what
23:15	KeithPM	quizdr: OK, let me take a look at it. Wow, amazing how easily one can blow one's foot off LOL… 5 lines of code!!!!
23:15	TEttinger	infinite loops are easy, fixing them not so much
23:15	KeithPM	TEttinger: Thanks, looking at it now
23:15	quizdr	for example you could have a line like this: (recur (dec m) n (conj acc (compute-winnings-for-a-trial n)))
23:15	KeithPM	TEttinger: :)
23:15	TEttinger	don't need the n actually, since it doesn't change
23:16	quizdr	put that as one of the if branches and you at least have a non-recurring branch to exit the loop
23:16	KeithPM	TEttinger: Rightm, right… The n is available already…
23:17	KeithPM	TEttinger: That's exactly what it should look like, thanks
23:18	joshuafcole	Hey folks, where do leiningen plugins get stored at?
23:18	joshuafcole	I'm trying to patch cljsbuild but can't seem to find it.
23:18	quizdr	ha ha i just saw TEttinger gist, don't know why i was repeating it
23:18	quizdr	could have saved some typing
23:18	quizdr	:)
23:19	KeithPM	quizdr: Thanks anyway, I appreciate it
23:19	TEttinger	KeithPM, there's an easier way too
23:19	TEttinger	,(defn multiple-trials [m n] (repeatedly m #(compute-winnings-for-a-trial n)))
23:19	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: compute-winnings-for-a-trial in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
23:19	TEttinger	oh right
23:19	TEttinger	well it does almost the same thing, just as a seq not a vector
23:19	KeithPM	TEttinger: I tried that but repeatedly needs a no-arg function
23:20	TEttinger	it is, n is outside the closure
23:20	KeithPM	Oh OK, you used the anonymous function… I did not try THAT… That's neat
23:21	TEttinger	assuming your compute just returned a random number... ##(let [m 6 n 8] (repeatedly m #(compute-winnings-for-a-trial n)))
23:21	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: compute-winnings-for-a-trial in this context
23:21	TEttinger	dammit!
23:21	KeithPM	For any beginners out there, I am actually following an article which tries to introduce developing an entire clojure program which runs a heads and tails (coin flipping) game. http://archive.eddology.com/post/14592579289/busy-persons-clojure?goback=.gde_1058217_member_5831664140367724547#!
23:21	TEttinger	assuming your compute just returned a random number FOR REAL... ##(let [m 6 n 8] (repeatedly m #(rand-int n)))
23:21	lazybot	⇒ (7 2 7 6 1 1)
23:22	KeithPM	TEttinger: I will try again with the anonymous function
23:23	TEttinger	repeat and repeatedly have some interesting subtle differences... the anonymous fn syntax creates a no-arg fn if no % args are used in the body
23:24	KeithPM	TEttinger: Yes, I think you already bound the n so anonymous function is in fact no-arg
23:24	TEttinger	(that's a fun catch, you would expect it to at least have a % single arg, right? but it is smart about it)
23:30	KeithPM	TEttinger: repeatedly works wonderfully well :) … Fewer keystrokes extends programmers' lives :)
23:38	akurilin	Hey folks. Is there a way to (require) all the namespaced under a certain folder?
23:38	akurilin	I'd love to be able to require all my test nses at once so that I can do (clojure.test/run-all-tests) on them.
23:40	Anderkent	akurilin: bultitude can tell you what is on the classpath
23:45	technomancy	akurilin: the fact that `lein test` can't be invoked from within your project itself is a big failing of the design there
23:47	technomancy	hopefully we can fix it in 3.0
23:54	akurilin	technomancy: I was reading your guide for lein test and you say in there that we should use clojure.test/run-all-tests to test from the REPL. What's your recommendation for getting those namespaces loaded int he first place?
23:55	akurilin	Should I use bultitude and require all of the test ones?
23:55	technomancy	akurilin: bultitude is about the only way, yeah
23:56	akurilin	Ok, will give that a try then.
23:56	akurilin	Any guides for how to UT from one's REPL you might be aware of ?
23:56	akurilin	I couldn't find anything in the "blogosphere"
23:57	akurilin	Which is surprising because this is pretty basic.
23:58	technomancy	akurilin: I don't ever do a full test from the repl
23:58	technomancy	I just est the specific nses that I'm working on
23:59	technomancy	and then before merging or pushing or whatever run a fresh `lein test` from the CLI so I know that the JVM state hasn't been corrupted
23:59	technomancy	personally anyway