#clojure – 2014-01-06

2014-01-06

00:11	t3soro	Hello Clojurians
00:11	t3soro	How can i prevent a (deliver) to a promise from delivering twice during a transaction that might get retry'd?
00:16	bbloom	t3soro: deliver it asynchronously with an agent
00:16	bbloom	t3soro: sends to agents are held until after a transaction succeeds
00:23	t3soro	thanks bbloom
00:38	arrdem	yarrr
00:39	arrdem	is there a (ninc) function in someone's snippet library?
00:39	bitemyapp	arrdem: ninc?
00:39	arrdem	bitemyapp: I keep needing an (inc (or 0 val))
00:39	arrdem	we.. (or val 0)
00:39	bitemyapp	...
00:39	arrdem	*well
00:40	arrdem	ninc Nillable Inc
00:40	bitemyapp	seems like you could just write it eh? :)
00:40	bitemyapp	seems silly though.
00:40	bitemyapp	just embedding the (or ...) is straight-forward.
00:40	arrdem	bitemyapp: the point is that this is the 15th or so time I've done so :P seems like it should exist somewhere for re-use...
00:41	seangrov`	fnil?
00:41	arrdem	seangrov`: what is this form? I don't know of it..
00:42	bitemyapp	arrdem: fnil is a more generic way to do it.
00:42	bitemyapp	ninc doesn't seem advisable.
00:42	arrdem	,(doc fnil)
00:42	clojurebot	"([f x] [f x y] [f x y z]); Takes a function f, and returns a function that calls f, replacing a nil first argument to f with the supplied value x. Higher arity versions can replace arguments in the second and third positions (y, z). Note that the function f can take any number of arguments, not just the one(s) being nil-patched."
00:42	arrdem	cute
00:42	seangrov`	,((fnil + 0) nil 10)
00:42	clojurebot	10
00:42	seangrov`	\o/
00:43	arrdem	lein new me.arrdem/detritus
02:28	tommo_	can some1 verify if this is valid code? (:gen-class ^{Manifest {:name "clj impl" :author "author" :description "desciption"}})
02:29	tommo_	i'm trying to add a class-level annotation
02:35	amalloy	that can't be right - metadata has to attach to something
02:35	amalloy	i don't know how to do annotations, but that ain't it
02:38	tommo_	ah silly me, attached it to class name
02:39	tommo_	and it looks like it works
02:39	bitemyapp	tommo_: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/test/clojure/test_clojure/genclass/examples.clj
02:41	tommo_	thanks bitemyapp, amalloy
03:12	seriously_random	how to avoid nesting while using take in a map: http://pastebin.com/kFxjMxdq
03:16	TEttinger	,(reduce into [] '((1 2 3) (1 2 3) (1 2 3)))
03:16	clojurebot	[1 2 3 1 2 ...]
03:16	TEttinger	seriously_random: ^
03:16	seriously_random	TEttinger, can't I do something inside map function?
03:17	seriously_random	TEttinger, I could also use flatten, but I want map to return non-nested sequence
03:17	vijaykiran	seriously_random: usually map is m -> m
03:17	TEttinger	yeah, if you use map on a 3-element sequence you get back a 3-element sequence
03:18	TEttinger	they may be nested elements
03:18	TEttinger	but still 3
03:21	seriously_random	TEttinger, http://pastebin.com/9w2ntvbn
03:22	TEttinger	the difference between reduce into [], and flatten, is flatten goes through the whole nesting and flattens all of it, reduce into [] removes one layer of nesting
03:23	TEttinger	,(reduce into [] '((1 2 3 (4 5 6)) (1 2 3 (4 5 6)) (1 2 3 (4 5 6))))
03:23	clojurebot	[1 2 3 (4 5 6) 1 ...]
03:25	seriously_random	TEttinger, or better is to avoid creating nested sequences
03:25	amalloy	(reduce into [] (map f coll)) is a pretty silly way to write (mapcat f coll)
03:26	TEttinger	right, mapcat
03:26	TEttinger	I was thinking of the output
03:45	seriously_random	TEttinger, ended up with apply concat (for instead
03:46	TEttinger	not... mapcat?
03:46	seriously_random	http://pastebin.com/R3Yjim6b
04:45	jazzorn	Hey! Question: probably some of you know http://www.youtube.com/user/jekor and the "Haskell Deconstructed" Tutorials where jekor rebuilds well know applications in haskell. I read trough Programming Clojure and liked the practica alot because they point in the same direction to get better in reading and writing and more important 'good haskell style'. Is there some known source you would recommend to 'get better in reading and writing clojure', like e.g.
04:45	jazzorn	well written clojure code of medium size that makes uses of common patterns, best practices, and so on ... ? Thanks and have a nice day!
04:52	llasram	jazzorn: Leiningen is a generally well-designed, approachable project, which has the big benefit that you'll already actually use if working in Clojure
04:53	hyPiRion	llasram: oh dear lord, Leiningen is not using common patterns and best practices
04:53	fredyr	jazzorn: and clojure source ofc
04:53	llasram	Haha
04:53	hyPiRion	It's worth to have a look at, but don't assume stuff we do in there is something you will do yourself
04:54	andrew__	are all the functions and forms built into the language listed here, or is this only a subset: http://richhickey.github.io/clojure/clojure.core-api.html
04:54	llasram	hyPiRion: You have a better example? :-) I honestly think it's pretty decent
04:55	llasram	andrew__: FYI, the official clojure repos are on github, but under the 'clojure' org, so e.g. not under user 'richhickey'
04:55	TEttinger	don't ever look at my code for "good practices"
04:55	hyPiRion	llasram: I'm not sure, but 4clojure and lazybot perhaps?
04:56	TEttinger	nice little snippet from my current project (aget ^"[Lcom.badlogic.gdx.graphics.g2d.TextureAtlas$AtlasSprite;" cleaned idx)
04:56	llasram	andrew__: To answer your question -- most of the lowest-level special forms are implemented in the compiler itself, currently in Java
04:57	TEttinger	jazzorn, I learned a lot hacking on lazybot
04:57	andrew__	llasram: ok, i just wanted to know the actual Clojure forms that make-up the langauge
04:57	TEttinger	it's fairly good source, well-documented but a lot of files. thankfully it's all sandboxed, so if you make a mistake it still launches and prints the error in the console
04:58	hyPiRion	(inc TEttinger)
04:58	lazybot	⇒ 11
04:59	TEttinger	hooray
04:59	hyPiRion	I usually struggle to find source code recommendations for new clojure programmers, so it's nice to get that one confirmed
04:59	TEttinger	lazybot has a mongodb dependency, which is fairly easy to set up
05:00	TEttinger	I actually had a harder time setting up and maintaining lucene for one of the plugins I wrote
05:00	llasram	TEttinger: I was going to make some snide comment about them (both? I believe) using mongo, and thus not following best practices, but (originally) held my tongue :-)
05:00	TEttinger	is congomongo deprecated?
05:01	llasram	`ring` and `compojure` show signs of being older projects, but may be the most widely-used Clojure projects following clojure itself
05:01	llasram	TEttinger: Not that I'm aware of. Just referring to MongoDB itself :-)
05:02	TEttinger	llasram, is datomic preferred these days?
05:02	llasram	TEttinger: You are making it difficult to inject passing database snobbery!
05:03	TEttinger	it's what I do man
05:03	llasram	Heh
05:03	TEttinger	hey it could be worse
05:03	TEttinger	could be Oracle's commercial DB
05:04	llasram	jazzorn: BTW, you'll probably get a wider range of suggestions if you ask on the Clojure mailing list. Especially versus this time of day on IRC -- this is probably maximum US sleepytime
05:06	llasram	TEttinger: All I ask of my databases is that they be libre and not lose my data as a design decision. Everything else I'll evaluate on an application-specific basis
05:07	TEttinger	I'm in california... but then again, I'm on Pacific Nonstandard Crazy Time
05:09	llasram	TEttinger: Yeah... Actual maximum might be in another 30-60 minutes, but we do have a number of EST early-risers
05:09	TEttinger	still, bay area and seattle seem to be prime clojure dens
05:10	llasram	Dark caves, filled with slithering parentheses
05:13	jazzorn	well, i'll jump into core-api for a while ... thanks
05:31	andrew__	i'm trying to make sense out of this: http://pastebin.com/iTY30wD0 When doing something like (count) on a very large sequence, is this suggesting that it will throw away values it doesn't need, if it can, and thus avoid memory problems on large seqs?
05:35	llasram	andrew__: Clojure tries to be relatively aggressive about generating code which doesn't unnecessarily hold references to values it no longer needs (i.e. "locals clearing"). Garbage collection and the design of lazy sequences (essentially single-linked lists where the "next" element may be a function to call) does the rest
05:36	ucb	hey hey llasram
05:36	llasram	Good <time of day>
05:37	ucb	morning for me, good $TZ_GREETING for you as well
06:10	pepijndevos	Can I do CouchDB-style compare-and-set! in Clojure? That is, compare a revision, not the whole data.
06:11	arcatan	good morning, in the universal greeting time!
06:21	pepijndevos	hrm, there are some java.util.concurent.atomic classes that have a mark or stamp, but they ALSO require the reference.
06:21	andrew__	llasram: so does (count) actually evaluate and remember all the values in a seq? also 2) is just prepeding your name with a colon enough to "message" you on here?
06:22	llasram	andrew__: Just mentioning someone's nick is usually enough to highlight it in most IRC clients
06:23	llasram	andrew__: As for `count` -- I'm not really sure how to answer that
06:23	andrew__	the code snippet I provided is confusing
06:23	andrew__	it suggests that count is by nature not head-retaining, therefore, how are values "remembered" if it evaluates everything at once?
06:25	llasram	Unfortunately I can't quite tell the source of your confusion
06:26	llasram	For lazy sequences, `count` just walks it as a single-linked list and counts the number of entries, so it doesn't need to hold on to any earlier references
06:27	andrew__	how can I get 5th element like this without error: (nth (repeatedly 1e6 (rand-int 10)) 5)
06:28	andrew__	it reports "java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn "
06:28	llasram	That kind of exception means you provided something else where Clojure expected a function, which is the case for the second argument of `repeatedly`
06:29	llasram	(rand-int 10) vs e.g. #(rand-int 10)
06:29	andrew__	oh, i meant a function literal
06:29	llasram	You meant a function literal?
06:33	andrew__	Yes I meant what you wrote, the #() expression. fixed. so my test reveals that using time and nth to access an element in a long lazy seq, indeed it takes longer for the first call, then short for the second. this is even true after (count) has been used to evaluate all elements, thus suggesting count does not actually cause values to be remembered, and the seq remains lazy
06:37	llasram	andrew__: Oh, I see what you are saying. No, that's not correct. Realization of lazy seq each element happens only once for a given concrete instance of a lazy seq
06:37	llasram	andrew__: Try creating a seq which needs to e.g. call Thread/sleep to realize each element
06:37	andrew__	llasram so count is not "realizing" the list
06:37	llasram	andrew__: It is
06:38	llasram	andrew__: Something else is confounding your empirical results
06:38	andrew__	if it is realizing it, then why is it not "head retaining" -- wouldn't knowing the "head" mean that it was realized?
06:39	llasram	When you walk a single-linked list, you only need to hold on to your "here" reference as you walk each element, you don't need to keep a reference to the first element you started at for each iteration
06:39	andrew__	ok, so keeping a reference to an element is not the same as having it "realized"
06:40	andrew__	what I don't understand about this code snippet http://pastebin.com/iTY30wD0 is that the 2 (count) calls are separate expressions, so why would one depend on the other as far as retaining a reference to head elements? llasram
06:40	llasram	Because they have an evaluation order imposed by the order in which they appear in the code
06:41	andrew__	but once one of them is evaluated, why would references be held when that expression ends? why does the order of the two count calls affect whether each of them holds onto references to head or not? each one does it count, returns a value, then the next one does the same. why would order matter?
06:42	deadghost	anyone have a good book for java?
06:42	deadghost	all this multi component factory talk is freaking me out
06:43	deadghost	http://api.libreoffice.org/examples/examples.html
06:44	deadghost	I assume if I want to use the api from clojure
06:44	deadghost	I'd have to understand the java
06:45	llasram	andrew__: Because the two sequences returned by `split-with` are both lazy sequences which close over references to the original sequence. The "head" sequence is short and fits in memory. Causing it to be realizes, realizes the original sequence up through those number of elements.
06:46	llasram	Until it is realized, the "tail" sequence holds on to those "head" elements via it's reference to the original sequence. Because the "head" is small, this is fine
06:47	broquaint	deadghost: You mostly need to understand how to call Java from Clojure which isn't too bad if you've got halfway decent API docs.
06:48	llasram	andrew__: Swapping the order of the calls leads to the un-realized "head" sequence holding its reference to the original sequence, which walking the "tail" portion forces to be fully realized, and thus blow the heap
06:48	deadghost	broquaint, I guess I'll try winging it
06:50	andrew__	llasram ...thinking
06:53	pepijndevos	Has anyone tried backporting cljs datastructures to Clojure?
06:53	hyPiRion	pepijndevos: check out Mori by dnolen
06:54	hyPiRion	wait what, I read wrongly
06:54	broquaint	Good luck, deadghost :)
06:54	hyPiRion	I thought you meant implementing Clojure data structures in js
06:54	pepijndevos	I was going to say...
06:54	pepijndevos	No, I want to mess with the ones already in Clojure.
06:55	pepijndevos	But messing with Java is no fun
06:55	pepijndevos	So I though I could backport the Cljs ones to Clojure instead
06:55	hyPiRion	Sounds interesting
06:56	pepijndevos	Specifically, I'm interested in making PersistentTreeMap more like a list, and do stuuf like NavigableMap in Java.
06:57	pepijndevos	There is a TreeMap in Java as well, which supports NavgiableMap stuff. But I also want to be able to look up by index.
06:59	philandstuff	you could crib ideas from core.rrb-vector and data.avl
06:59	andrew__	llasram i guess the fundamental source of my confusion is with regards to how references are getting held based on two different function calls. behind the scenes, Clojure must try to optimize by saying "oh, he needs to look at the head of this sequence in the next function call, so I won't throw away any values while I walk this list." is that right?
06:59	andrew__	Clojure determines how to handle a lazy seq based on just on a sequence function being called (like count), but also based on what other function calls neighbor it
07:00	andrew__	*based not on just a sequence function (typo above)
07:00	pepijndevos	philandstuff, avl doesn;t look bad at all! hmmm
07:03	llasram	andrew__: Maybe it would help to think of lazy sequences as closures over whatever they need to compute the next element
07:04	llasram	andrew__: The immediate return values of `split-with` haven't evaluated anything yet, and so both are closures over the original sequence
07:05	philandstuff	pepijndevos: yeah anything by michalmarczyk is generally worth a peruse
07:05	llasram	Clojure doesn't do anything at the semantic level you're describing -- it just tries to be aggressive about clearing local references which are no longer necessary, and the rest of the resulting behavior follows from GC
07:06	pepijndevos	philandstuff, maybe I can persuade him to implement NavigableMap. It provides all the other things I want.
07:07	amalloy	andrew__: (1) lazy sequences are never realized twice (they are always saved). (2) iterating over a lazy sequence releases references to the walked-over elements. (3) the GC can only collect elements to which there are no pointers. (4) as a necessary result of 1, 2, and 3, if you call an iterating function f on a collection c, and then call another function g on c, then c cannot be GCed during f
07:07	llasram	andrew__: Anyway, I've got to go, but I hope it becomes clear to you :-)
07:07	seangrove	Weird. Seems like the body for POST requests to my ring server are not coming in at all, even though I'm sending it through cURL or the browser. Anything obvious to check?
07:07	amalloy	seangrove: some middleware has already read the body
07:07	andrew__	llasram perhaps my confusion is that this is a let form, the result of which has nothing to do with specific values inside the sequences, but rather just with their counted size. The let form only needs to know those values for the purpose of counting them and then those values are thrown away, since nothing is getting stored
07:07	amalloy	and since it's a stateful stream, you can't re-read
07:07	seangrove	Ah, that could be, yeah
07:08	andrew__	llasram therefore the evaluation of the let form needs to remember head in order to fulfill its task
07:09	seangrove	amalloy: Yeah, looks like it. I had removed most middleware, just not enough, heh.
07:11	andrew__	llasram here is another test that suggests I'm understanding this better:
07:12	andrew__	I can do this fine, because no values are being remembered, only counted items: (count (range 1e8)) -- but, I cannot do this: (def v (split-with #(< % 12) (range 1e8))) followed by (def v (split-with #(< % 12) (range 1e8)))
07:12	andrew__	llasram that was supposed to say followed by (count (v 1))
07:13	andrew__	the only difference is that values are remembered in one, not the other. just as in the first let form.
07:20	dsrx	is there a way to write a 0-arity fn with #() ?
07:20	hyPiRion	yeah, skip %'s inside them
07:20	hyPiRion	,(repeatedly 10 #(rand-int 10))
07:20	clojurebot	(6 1 3 5 7 ...)
07:21	dsrx	hmm...
07:21	dsrx	weird. getting a cljs "Invalid arity: 1" error when I use #([]), but not when I use (fn [] [])
07:22	hyPiRion	that's because #([]) is (fn [] ([]))
07:22	dsrx	ohh
07:22	hyPiRion	,'#([])
07:22	clojurebot	(fn* [] ([]))
07:22	dsrx	of course
07:24	dsrx	thanks
07:24	hyPiRion	np
07:27	seangrove	Hrm, another oddity. If I add (ring.middleware.json/wrap-json-params) to my ring routes, it causes a 404...
07:28	seangrove	Seems like ring-middlewares can be pretty tricky to compose
08:13	augustl	seangrove: I found running middlewares before method/path matching to be a problem..
08:14	augustl	seangrove: I use a routing lib that wraps the middleware around the individual post-routing FNs so that you don't run into problesm with middlewares that redirects or reads the read-once body
08:21	pepijndevos	Is there a way to serialize clojure data, maintaining structural sharing?
08:26	mdrogalis	pepijndevos: I wonder if Fressian does that under the hood.
08:26	mdrogalis	Probably not though.
08:27	augustl	pepijndevos: as in compose two serialized blobs, or to encode the internal in-memory structural sharing your current mem has?
08:27	seriously_random	is map here doing just mod 3? http://pastebin.com/7Bt2DHDY
08:28	pepijndevos	hmm. I don't know. I just want to avoid exploding memory by serializing and then deserializing map sharing structure.
08:29	pepijndevos	So I gues the latter
08:29	pepijndevos	Alternatively, I could maybe use data.diff to store just the difference and recreate the structural sharing uplon load,
08:30	augustl	pepijndevos: storing facts/events and deriving the map from that might make sense yeah
08:33	arcatan	seriously_random: it calculates the nearest integer towards zero that is divisible by 3
08:34	seriously_random	arcatan, where can I read more about (map # %?
08:35	augustl	seriously_random: #(foo %) compiles to (fn [arg1] (foo arg1))
08:36	augustl	so % is the argument passed to the fn
09:02	TEttinger	seriously_random: ##(str "compare the output of " (#(+ % %) 5) " and " ((fn [n] (+ n n)) 5) )
09:02	lazybot	⇒ "compare the output of 10 and 10"
09:02	TEttinger	seriously_random: ##(str "then, compare the output of " (#(+ %1 %2) 5 7) " and " ((fn [x y] (+ x y)) 5 7) )
09:02	lazybot	⇒ "then, compare the output of 12 and 12"
09:06	pepijndevos	What is the namespace magic required to look up a function by name and call it?
09:07	pepijndevos	(like ((lookup "assoc" clojure.core) {} :foo 1)
09:07	TEttinger	I think it's resolve
09:07	TEttinger	,(doc resolve)
09:07	clojurebot	"([sym] [env sym]); same as (ns-resolve ns symbol) or (ns-resolve ns &env symbol)"
09:08	TEttinger	,(resolve assoc)
09:08	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.core$assoc cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Symbol>
09:08	TEttinger	,(resolve 'assoc)
09:08	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/assoc
09:09	TEttinger	,(resolve (symbol "assoc"))
09:09	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/assoc
09:09	TEttinger	there you go
09:09	pepijndevos	&(#'clojure.core/assoc {} :a 1) ; is a var callable.. can;t remember
09:09	lazybot	⇒ {:a 1}
09:10	TEttinger	how's your afternoon going, pepijndevos?
09:11	pepijndevos	good, getting a database together :D
09:24	rurumate_	(type (char \newline))
09:24	rurumate_	,(type (char \newline))
09:24	clojurebot	java.lang.Character
09:24	rurumate_	why can type not tell me if it's a primitive?
09:25	teslanick	Is anything in Clojure a primitive?
09:25	pepijndevos	yea
09:25	TEttinger	yes, contents of arrays
09:25	rurumate_	I would think so
09:25	TEttinger	I think type is autoboxing it because there's no class for char that doesn't promote to Character
09:26	rurumate_	is there something like type which doesn't do autoboxing?
09:27	TEttinger	I wonder that myself.
09:30	pjstadig	primitive types are compile-time types, you can't inspect them at runtime without autoboxing
09:31	pjstadig	you know you have them, or not, by looking at the source code
09:31	TEttinger	so (type x) calls (class x), and that calls a method on Object
09:31	pjstadig	,(type type)
09:31	clojurebot	clojure.core$type
09:32	pjstadig	i believe type (and class?) are functions, so their arguments get boxed when they are called
09:32	pjstadig	or they desugar into a call to some RT method that take Objects or something
09:33	pjstadig	~source type
09:33	pjstadig	~source class
09:36	CookedGryphon	Hey, I'm having an issue with core.async - No implementation of method: :emit-instruction of protocol: #'clojure.core.async.impl.ioc-macros/IEmittableInstruction found for class: clojure.core.async.impl.ioc_macros.Jmp
09:37	TEttinger	pjstadig, did it send those in a notice?
09:37	CookedGryphon	does anyone know what that means?
09:37	pjstadig	TEttinger: do those not show publically?
09:37	pjstadig	http://is.gd/UfrUwQ
09:37	TEttinger	CookedGryphon, more people should be awake soon, lots of them use async
09:39	TEttinger	,(type (into-array [(char \newline)]))
09:39	clojurebot	[Ljava.lang.Character;
09:39	TEttinger	wow
09:40	TEttinger	oh, generics can't have primitives, they need to be objets inside
09:40	TEttinger	so that vector is making it a Character not a char
09:40	hyPiRion	,(type (into-array Character/TYPE [\newline]))
09:40	clojurebot	[C
09:41	hyPiRion	That's probably what you want
09:41	TEttinger	no, my goal was to find the type
09:41	hyPiRion	ah, alright
09:41	hyPiRion	Yeah, an Object can't be a primitive
09:41	TEttinger	Character/Type means I know it already, unless I can call that without knowing it?
09:41	hyPiRion	or the other way around: A primitive can't be an object
09:59	rurumate_	,(type (aget (into-array Character/TYPE [\newline]) 0))
09:59	clojurebot	java.lang.Character
09:59	pepijndevos	How do I "apply" the result from clojure.data/diff?
10:01	pepijndevos	For added entries I could maybe do (fn recursive-merge [& maps] (apply merge-with recursive-merge maps))
10:24	hcumberdale	Hi :)
10:25	hyPiRion	hello
10:25	hcumberdale	I'm trying to insert multiple rows like in https://github.com/clojure/java.jdbc "Example Usage" but this does not work if I generate the maps with (map ...) because of the result is a '({ } ... {} )
10:26	hcumberdale	how to transform '({} {}) to {} {} ? macro needed?
10:27	hyPiRion	either macro or apply
10:27	augustl	hcumberdale: (apply the-fn (map ..))
10:28	hyPiRion	yeah, (apply mysql-db :fruit '({} {})) also works
10:29	hyPiRion	(apply j/insert! mysql-db :fruit '({} {})) I mean
10:29	hcumberdale	IllegalArgumentException insert called with columns but no values
10:30	hcumberdale	sorry missed a (
10:32	hcumberdale	worked, thx
10:35	hcumberdale	is this also possible for update! ?
10:35	hcumberdale	multiple updates with one call?
10:35	augustl	hcumberdale: "apply" is generic to any function
10:36	hcumberdale	I meant the api clojure jdbc
10:36	hcumberdale	can't find an example for multiple updates
10:57	jjl`_	how on earth does midje autotest manage to run my test suite without me even noticing? it's BLAZING fast
11:13	kes_	Can someone suggest a way to refactor https://gist.github.com/7d063b410e1b4c5bfdd5 ? Seems like that should all be one thing.
11:18	broquaint	kes_: Wants another function? https://www.refheap.com/22515
11:20	augustl	kes_: I wouldn't write functions like that. I would maybe have written a get-factor function and then just done the key lookup as needed
11:20	augustl	kes_: data is an abstraction in and of itself, no need to wrap it even more in a function :)
11:20	jjl`_	and i just commented another approach on the gist
11:21	augustl	kes_: so, (:city (factor-by-zipcode zipcode factors-table))
11:21	augustl	jjl`_: not sure what the point is of getter fns :)
11:22	jjl`_	augustl: likewise, but without seeing more code, i'm not going to tell someone they're wrong :)
11:22	augustl	jjl`_: I like to issue a word of warning when I see someone abstracting data in getter fns and the like, based on personal experience in seeing java devs do that when they learn clojure
11:23	jjl`_	augustl: i haven't had that experience, but i get it
11:24	augustl	Get it. Get it?
11:26	augustl	kes_: fyi, (defn get-factor [factors-table zipcode] (first (filter #(= (:zip %) zipcode) factors-table)))
11:27	hcumberdale	whats the best way to re-order a vector for jdbc processing?
11:27	augustl	hcumberdale: got an example?
11:32	kes_	augustl: Thanks, sorry for the delay in response. :)
11:34	ToBeReplaced	hcumberdale: maybe https://github.com/ToBeReplaced/jdbc-format ?
11:35	pepijndevos	$findfn {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} :a :b [1 2]
11:35	lazybot	[]
11:36	pepijndevos	$findfn {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} [:a :b] [1 2]
11:36	lazybot	[clojure.core/mapv clojure.core/map clojure.core/replace clojure.core/pmap clojure.core/keep]
11:37	pepijndevos	Since assoc can take many keys, I kind of epected there would be a way to get many keys as well.
11:38	joegallo	That would be a very easy thing to write, if you want it.
11:39	CookedGryphon	hi, I think I'm having some bad interactions between core.async and core.match
11:39	CookedGryphon	No method in multimethod 'to-source' for dispatch value: class clojure.core.match.OrPattern
11:41	CookedGryphon	actually, it might be to do with aot compilation, not core.async at all...
11:52	CookedGryphon	does anybody have any clues as to what No implementation of method: :emit-instruction of protocol: #'clojure.core.async.impl.ioc-macros/IEmittableInstruction found for class: clojure.core.async.impl.ioc_macros.Jmp means?L
11:52	justin_smith	sounds like a bug in core.async that an error like that would even show up
11:54	justin_smith	maybe an aot / library version mixup? see if stopping clojure, lein clean, restarting helps. That's my first goto when I get errors that don't even make any sense in terms of the code in my app.
11:54	CookedGryphon	i've done that, no joy
12:16	katox	Hey, been fighting Om lately but I'm still unclear about some state/props intents. Cut out of app init here: https://www.refheap.com/22520
12:16	dnolen	katox: can you be more specific?
12:17	dnolen	katox: tried to keep the semantics more/less in line with React
12:17	seangrove	dnolen: Just pushed our first om app to production today
12:17	katox	I wanted to init the app with state and put there a chan to of events
12:18	katox	so I expected this to belong into state
12:18	katox	if I'm not mistaken re-render should occur after a state change
12:18	dnolen	seangrove: whoa awesome!
12:19	dnolen	katox: yes re-render will occur eventually on a state change.
12:19	katox	dnolen: the problem is that the definition in the bin is somehow incomplete
12:19	tbaldridge	seangrove: "DEPLOY ALL THE ALPHA CODE!!" :-P
12:19	arcatan	\o/
12:19	tbaldridge	seangrove: "DEPLOY ALL THE ALPHA CODE!!" :-P
12:19	tbaldridge	bleh wrong window, sorry for the report
12:19	katox	dnolen: I'm not sure what's missing, the .-props are not yet there
12:19	tbaldridge	*repost
12:20	seangrove	tbaldridge: heh, presumably the second time was to fix a bug with the alpha code ;)
12:20	tbaldridge	lol, nice
12:20	arcatan	wait, there's a jar on clojars, it can't be alpha
12:20	dnolen	katox: the first agument to the life-cycle protocols is NOT the owner
12:20	dnolen	katox: it's the reify instance
12:20	seangrove	React is pretty sound though, it's what we were looking to build towards anyway. Om has some sharp edges and we lost ~1 day to some things, but it's definitely a net +
12:20	dnolen	katox: that's why you're code isn't working
12:21	katox	dnolen: ah!
12:24	CookedGryphon	with core.async, can you recur from the result-expr of at alt! ?
12:28	katox	dnolen: so disregarding this bug, is it okay to setup a channel in pre-render will-mount, save it into state and process it pre-render as well
12:28	pepijndevos	Huh... ns is clojure.core in a different namespace.
12:29	pepijndevos	Or... I guess ns is not lexical...
12:29	Bronsa	pepijndevos: it is not indeed.
12:29	katox	dnolen: accummulating more changes that'll be reflected on next render
12:29	Bronsa	pepijndevos: (let [cur-ns ns] (defn ..)) will do what you want
12:29	pepijndevos	lol, ok
12:30	rurumate_	Help, I'm getting java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.tools.logging.impl.LoggerFactory in all :aot namespaces
12:30	rurumate_	what seems to be the problem here?
12:30	dnolen	katox: seems ok to me, but note if you set-state! before/during IWillUpdate phase, then all phases after it will see it
12:30	rurumate_	this used to work, just made some changes to dependencies in project.clj
12:31	hiredman	rurumate_: delete ./target and try again
12:32	jballanc	core.logic question...why doesn't this return (1)? (cl/run* [q] (cl/membero 1 '(q 2 3)))
12:33	rurumate_	jballanc: I dunno, looks like it should
12:33	hiredman	because 'q is not q
12:33	dnolen	jballanc: what hiredman said
12:33	jballanc	huh...but this does? (cl/run* [q] (cl/membero 1 [q 2 3]))
12:33	rurumate_	oh
12:33	jballanc	d'oh
12:33	jballanc	yeah, ok...guess I need a refill on the coffee
12:33	jballanc	:P
12:33	rurumate_	hiredman: it worked, thanks
12:34	rurumate_	+ hiredman
12:35	rurumate_	maybe #clojure should get karma points
12:36	bbloom	(inc #clojure)
12:36	lazybot	⇒ 7
12:36	bbloom	done.
12:37	S11001001	bbloom: my thought exactly
12:40	katox	dnolen: thanks, makes sense
12:40	dnolen	katox: yeah we used to pass the owner to life-cycle implementations, but it was tedious
12:41	dnolen	katox: in the future Om component constructor fns may stop taking cursors as it's a potential source of confusion
12:41	dnolen	katox: instead IRender would take it, and everyone else would need to get it via om/get-props
12:42	katox	dnolen: sounds more straightforward
12:42	katox	dnolen: the bug above must have crept in when refactoring to a newer version
12:43	katox	dnolen: somehow I couldn't find it ;) - parameter blindness
12:43	rasmusto	,;)
12:43	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
12:43	rasmusto	,:)
12:43	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: :>
12:44	jballanc	hmm...ok, another one -- why doesn't this terminate? (cl/run* [q] (cl/membero 2 q) (fd/bounded-listo q 2))
12:46	hiredman	what do you mean by not terminate?
12:50	dnolen	jballanc: bounded-listo isn't really relational, it needs to come first
12:51	dnolen	jballanc: it a simple hack to prevent some basic bad scenarios not a real solution.
12:51	dnolen	jballanc: perhaps jim duey's Arrow based work can provide more termination but I haven't had time to think about it.
12:52	hansel-han	Can anyone that's written an ebook recommend an input format? I'd like to translate my Pages.app book into something compatible with Pandoc.
12:54	technomancy	people seem to like asciidoc
12:54	technomancy	that's what they used for the clojure cookbook
12:55	CookedGryphon	does anybody here understand alt!, I've been banging my head on this one line of code all day: https://www.refheap.com/0e98bf67f7a20db53acc85d6f
12:55	tbaldrid_	technomancy: I think that's mostly because the publisher only allows asciidoc. But rkneufeld would know more.
12:56	technomancy	tbaldrid_: huh. I know cemerick is always singing its praises and bemoaning markdown
12:56	technomancy	which is reasonable; markdown is terrible
12:56	tbaldrid_	CookedGryphon: the event-stream should only have a single argument in the handler (val, not val ch)
12:57	CookedGryphon	I tried that too iirc, one second I'll try
12:57	hiredman	CookedGryphon: you can't recur from a non-tail position
12:57	technomancy	hansel-han: what's the book?
12:57	hansel-han	CookedGryphon: does that code actually work? alt! takes a vector of channels in that form and i don't see how alt! in that example would do anything other than hang indefinitely.
12:57	CookedGryphon	hansel-han: don't know yet, it's yet to compile
12:58	CookedGryphon	hansel-han: it's meant to wait until it's able to push to the other loop just above it
12:58	hiredman	given the result of the alt! is let bound, the bodies of the alt! are not in tail position
12:58	hansel-han	technomancy: it's not clojure or dev related. i just imagine that someone here might have some experience. i'm checking out asciidoc.
12:59	rkneufeld	technomancy: hello! We use asciidoc solely because that is what O'Reilly dictated to us.
12:59	hansel-han	rkneufeld: if you werent' constrained, would you have another preference?
13:00	jballanc	dnolen: ah, indeed...thanks for the tip!
13:00	rkneufeld	hansel-han: I like asciidoc for the features it provides, but editor integration is not great, and the tooling is klunky. I might try constraining myself to write a shorter book using just Markdown (a la "The Senior Software Engineer"), but that comes with some serious limitations (specifically layout)
13:01	jballanc	dnolen: I'll have to look into Arrows some more
13:01	technomancy	rkneufeld: is it accurate that asciidoc has most of the features of docbook?
13:02	hansel-han	yeah, i couldn't really see an endgame with vanilla markdown in regard to images. someone just recommended http://www.literatureandlatte.com/scrivener.php to me
13:02	rkneufeld	technomancy: I think so, I don't know for certain. I do know that in production O'Reilly staff converts the book to docbook and works with it in that format over asciidoc.
13:02	hyPiRion	If I were serious, I'd do LaTeX even for ebooks. Although you should be very comfortable in LaTeX before you go down that road.
13:02	hyPiRion	s/were/was/
13:03	technomancy	were is actually right for that
13:03	rasmusto	what's wrong w/ LaTeX? Most of it is plain text
13:03	technomancy	fwiw
13:03	rkneufeld	I think in general, if you're new to the tools and writing, I'd start with simple Markdown and get the content down first.
13:03	rasmusto	unless you're doing tables and eqns and things
13:03	rkneufeld	A complex toolchain is a surefire way to burn tons of time avoiding the task at hand (writing a book)
13:04	hansel-han	rkneufeld: agreed. i made sure to write almost all of the content before i began looking for answers to this question. i know me. i would've let this decision blockade the book for years
13:04	technomancy	what you really need to do is invent a sexp-based publishing format and use that
13:05	hansel-han	technomancy: it took a lot of effort to not yak shave down that path when i was trying to write chapter 1!
13:06	technomancy	protip: you can use the Computer Modern font without using LaTex and everyone will still think you used LaTex so you look smart
13:06	rkneufeld	technomancy: Ha!
13:07	bitemyapp	technomancy: spent an hour yesterday poring over neighborhoods in Seattle with a native from the city. She was another strong vote in favor of the PNW.
13:07	S11001001	technomancy: I enjoy texinfo, which gives cmr output by default
13:08	rasmusto	s/poring/pouring amirite? (pnw joke)
13:08	hansel-han	CookedGryphon: what's your intention with `[[predict-data event-history]] (recur [])`?
13:08	bitemyapp	rasmusto: it doesn't rain on the west coast, it drizzles and mists.
13:08	rasmusto	bitemyapp: we call it rain though
13:08	bitemyapp	rasmusto: I'm from Ohio, there is no rain here, just mild sneezes.
13:08	hiredman	why would you not want to use latex?
13:08	bitemyapp	in Ohio, rain means you'd get soaked in 30 seconds.
13:09	bitemyapp	rasmusto: I just find the moaning about the rain silly given how flaccid it is :P
13:09	bitemyapp	a light mist is refreshing :)
13:09	CookedGryphon	hansel-han: I want to accumulate events, while the long running prediction function is running, and then when that loop is in a position to accept new data, push it there
13:09	rasmusto	for sure, especially at the coast
13:09	bitemyapp	rasmusto: where are you in the PNW?
13:09	CookedGryphon	and process all the events it received in the meantime
13:09	rasmusto	bitemyapp: portland
13:09	technomancy	bitemyapp: nice; hope it works out
13:10	bitemyapp	rasmusto: cool. Paying Seattle a visit sometime in the next month or two.
13:10	rasmusto	sweet
13:10	dnolen	a pretty significant CLJS enhancement, http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-615, if someone wants to apply and test that would be awesome
13:10	bitemyapp	technomancy: I was initially put off by how expensive Seattle was compared to Austin, but after running the numbers, I don't think it makes nearly as much of a difference as simply leaving the bay area will.
13:11	technomancy	bitemyapp: especially if you want to be outside the city
13:11	dnolen	also namespaced keyword destructuring appears likely for 1.6, would be nice to get this in CLJS http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-745
13:11	dnolen	if it happens
13:12	hiredman	CookedGryphon: have you considered a buffered channel?
13:12	bitemyapp	technomancy: eventually. I'll probably live around capitol hill initially. I won't move out of the city until I'm ready to get a house - want to soak up the area until then.
13:12	CookedGryphon	hiredman: yep, I don't think that'll give the behaviour I want though
13:12	CookedGryphon	I want predict to be doing as much work as it can
13:13	CookedGryphon	without blocking new events
13:14	CookedGryphon	I don't really know how many events to consume with a buffered channel
13:14	CookedGryphon	before I set predict off
13:14	CookedGryphon	as i want to batch as many events as I can, without waiting for idle time or anything like that
13:16	gdev	dnolen, where do I send the results of my test runs?
13:16	dnolen	gdev: ?
13:16	arrdem	whelp hackernews is still screwed... guess I'm gonna have a productive day.
13:17	gdev	dnolen, or did you just mean test it out for ourselves?
13:17	kzar	arrdem: It's been screwed all day uk time :(
13:17	kzar	(Interestingly it was displaying a cloudfare error for a while, didn't realise they were using that.)
13:17	dnolen	gdev: apply the patch, run script/build, try the installed CLJS in an existing project
13:17	arrdem	kzar: US-CENTRAL here, it's been down since about 2000HRS yesterday
13:17	dnolen	gdev: if everything works ok please say so on the ticket
13:18	TimMc	There's a lot of tech fail today. Anything systemic?
13:18	dnolen	gdev: the patch need to be reviewed, but it's helpful to know it doesn't break everything before especially for a large patch like this
13:18	kzar	TimMc: Everyone's hungover post christmas?
13:19	TimMc	Plausible.
13:19	gdev	dnolen, okay will do, sorry I forgot that I had a username on jira
13:19	arrdem	kzar: it's been more than a week man... nobody should be hung over that long
13:19	rasmusto	arrdem: you forget new years eve
13:19	kzar	my old housemates are probably still drunk now
13:20	bitemyapp	kzar: russian?
13:20	rasmusto	arrdem: oshi, it has been a week though ;o
13:20	arrdem	I mean I'm on vacation and still drinking, but that's not the point :P
13:20	TimMc	arrdem: I would ascribe it more to post-vacation knowledge loss.
13:20	bitemyapp	arrdem: you're still on vacation?!
13:20	kzar	heh
13:20	TimMc	"What's this button do again? Let's find out."
13:20	arrdem	bitemyapp: yeah. school resumes the 13th
13:21	kzar	bitemyapp: I got them some north korean rice (whiskey?) recently and they didn't waste any time
13:21	bitemyapp	kzar: I was right, wasn't I?
13:22	kzar	No, they're English / Welsh but they can drink
13:22	bitemyapp	oh that'll do it.
13:22	TimMc	I believe that conforms to stereotype as well.
13:27	stuartsierra	Peter Seibel invented his own markup format for "Practical Common Lisp"
13:28	bitemyapp	stuartsierra: are you our new "#catfacts!" person?
13:28	bitemyapp	stuartsierra: also, done any Haskell? I'm tinkering with module parameterization there.
13:28	stuartsierra	Referencing earlier discussion with hansel-han.
13:29	stuartsierra	bitemyapp: No, I have not used Haskell.
13:29	bitemyapp	stuartsierra: well that explains why you use Clojure I guess. Thanks anyway.
13:30	xnil	that's insulting
13:30	bvecchi	I recommend Pandoc for anything Markdown related. It can output epub among other formats.
13:30	bitemyapp	xnil: not really. Clojure's quite nice.
13:31	Cr8	I use pandoc mostly because I type in "regular" markdown, but occasionally use tools that expect "github" markdown
13:31	xnil	i'm not offended :P
13:31	xnil	i don't even use clojure, i'm just here because it's a lisp
13:31	Cr8	and pandoc can translate for me
13:32	Cr8	though usually if I can choose I render w/ multimarkdown
13:32	Cr8	"a lisp"
13:32	bitemyapp	xnil: have you used Shen? I've been trying to find somebody that's actually tried it.
13:32	logic_prog	bitemyapp: I bought the shen book
13:33	logic_prog	I also read a few chapters.
13:33	hyPiRion	bitemyapp: have you? I'm sort of tempted to.
13:33	xnil	bitemyapp: i'm having a look at it
13:33	llasram	If only the license weren't so insane...
13:33	logic_prog	overall impression: many nice ideas, but the cllojure port doesn't seem stable enough to do anything with it
13:34	technomancy	I'd be surprised if anyone invested a lot in shen with a license like that
13:34	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: I'm only curious enough to inquire, the type system isn't good enough to be worth personally investigating.
13:34	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: if you want types, FP, and to live in the future...
13:34	hyPiRion	oh man, license
13:34	hyPiRion	=(
13:34	xnil	bitemyapp: i've only used clojure/scheme/racket/CL/elisp myself
13:35	bitemyapp	arrdem: Racket is kinda nice for implementing programming languages.
13:35	xnil	racket and scheme being the only ones i have any decent experience in
13:45	TimMc	OK, I just looked through the Shen spec. What's so horrible about it?
13:45	hyPiRion	TimMc: the nonfree license?
13:45	arrdem	hyPiRion: agreed.
13:46	TimMc	I mean in practical terms.
13:46	arrdem	TimMc: Shen is really cute, but the license is assinine and disuades me from using it at all
13:46	hyPiRion	Isn't the license a practical issue? :p
13:46	TimMc	Like, what's a practical scenario where this becomes a problem?
13:47	arrdem	TimMc: I don't see that I need one. I object to not being able to hack on the language core if I want to, and thus choose not to use Mark's latest creation elegant as it may be.
13:47	xnil	when you try to distribute your software, TimMc
13:47	arrdem	xnil: no read the license. you can use shen inside another project, you just can't change shen at all ever.
13:47	arrdem	xnil: it's a read but don't touch "open" license
13:48	xnil	oi
13:48	bitemyapp	arrdem: it's actually impressive that somebody found a way to be more obnoxious than Clojure's CA.
13:48	xnil	how morbid
13:48	bitemyapp	almost like it was competition among Lispers to see who could attract the fewest contributors.
13:48	arrdem	bitemyapp: eh... I think the CA is entirely reasonable but w/e
13:48	bitemyapp	as if that was ever a problem for a Lisp, too many contributors.
13:48	technomancy	he's got a bit of a chip on his shoulder because he wasn't able to make a living with OSS and thinks he can blame that on the license
13:49	bitemyapp	arrdem: taken in isolation, yes, but seeing other lang communities are run, I'm not seeing it.
13:49	bitemyapp	technomancy: need to have a knack for sales, marketing, and drumming up contract work if you want to make a living off OSS.
13:49	arrdem	bitemyapp: shrug. legal isolation is kina the first thing that I'd worry about in this case.
13:49	hyPiRion	The problem isn't really the CA itself, it is the "Please send a printed version with your signature"-issue
13:49	bitemyapp	arrdem: that's not what I said.
13:50	arrdem	0.o
13:50	TimMc	arrdem: So if you wanted to use Shen as one component of a redistributable larger project, you couldn't tweak your copy of Shen?
13:50	technomancy	the CA is just emblematic of deeper-seated "we're not interested in your help" issues
13:50	bitemyapp	arrdem: what I said meant, "if you analyze it isolated from all counter-examples seems okay"
13:50	arrdem	TimMc: that's my understanding yes
13:50	TimMc	Huh. That is weird.
13:50	arrdem	exactly.
13:50	TimMc	I guess I'm not too bothered by that, though.
13:51	TimMc	How many people ship an altered version of Clojure?
13:51	bitemyapp	technomancy: it's particularly offensive how it locks out people from countries with less than reliable/practical mail delivery.
13:51	arrdem	Mark actually has an essay somewhere in which he defends this model...
13:51	xnil	bitemyapp: CA?
13:51	hyPiRion	TimMc: I do all time, sort of
13:51	bitemyapp	tl;dr I want somebody else to sacrifice their time so I can hear about Shen.
13:51	arrdem	xnil: Contributor Agreement
13:51	technomancy	TimMc: it was really common in the pre-1.2 days
13:51	TimMc	I can see doing that for an internal project, of course, but who'd do that with a redistributable?
13:51	hyPiRion	I use cl-format and there's this bug
13:51	technomancy	we patched it to fix locas-clearing bugs
13:51	bbloom	shrug it would be nice to have an electronic CA, but sheesh people, it literally takes ~120 seconds and a stamp to submit. Given the amount of time invested in a quality patch, a physical CA is such a silly thing to complain about
13:52	arrdem	bbloom: haha. took me an hour, but only because I included a letter with it :P
13:52	TimMc	bbloom: I don't have a printer. Some people don't live in the US. I want to contribute now.
13:52	TimMc	^ Three main reasons.
13:53	arrdem	TimMc: so sign the bloody thing, photograph it, email it to me and I'll mail it for you
13:53	TimMc	heh
13:53	TimMc	Does that pass the lawyer test?
13:53	technomancy	just bribe someone with a CA to submit it under their own name
13:53	technomancy	problem solved
13:54	hyPiRion	bbloom: I had to buy an envelope, figure out how many stamps for overseas mail, buy said stamps, then do those steps you mentioned. Also wait 2 weeks.
13:54	hyPiRion	It's not really about time though, it's about lowering the barrier
13:55	bbloom	TimMc: i don't know how any modern geek survives without a printer. i hate printing shit and avoid it often, but sometimes you gotta friggin do paperwork here on planet earth. the non-US thing is the only real issue for some folks, and even that it's not a big issue. the contribute "now" thing is silly because your patch isn't even going to get looked at for weeks/months, so why the rush?
13:55	TimMc	bbloom: Most patches aren't all that complicated. You want to lower the barrier for simple, initial participation so that the same people can then go on to submit bigger and better patches later.
13:55	TimMc	bbloom: Because I don't want to spend time/effort on a patch until I know it will matter.
13:56	technomancy	I only got a printer recently when we started homeschooling
13:56	technomancy	everyone reasonable accepts things signed on a tablet
13:56	bbloom	TimMc: so email the list & ask if such a patch would be considered/accepted
13:56	TimMc	bbloom: It's all fine and dandy that this isn't a barrier for you, but I think you should listen when other people say it's a barrier for them.
13:56	pmonks	+1 - DocuSign etc. aren't that hard to use...
13:57	bbloom	TimMc: i understand it's a barrier for some folks & think it's silly it hasn't been addressed yet, but everybody acts like it's the end of the world
13:57	pjstadig	yay! The semi-whatever CA rant
13:57	TimMc	shrug It is part of why I have given up on contributing to Clojure.
13:58	TimMc	pjstadig: Monthly, I think.
13:58	bbloom	TimMc: my view on this changed when i started getting a few PR from folks on some github projects
13:58	bbloom	reviewing a patch is A FUCKLOAD OF WORK
14:00	bbloom	it's a crappy filter, but if the activation energy of buying some stamps is too high, then i'm probably not interested in your contributions. at this point, there are enough contributors & users that major issues will be fixed immediately if discovered & anything else is not in any rush what so ever
14:00	bbloom	there are clearly much better filters
14:00	bbloom	and i'd prefer clojure used a better filter :-P
14:01	TimMc	The larger issue is the general hostility towards patches.
14:01	bbloom	so that's the much more interesting topic, IMHO
14:02	bbloom	like i said: patches are a lot of work
14:02	TimMc	Sometimes I think Core's preference is to remain bug-compatible instead of fixing bugs. And that way lies Win32.
14:03	bbloom	eh, Win32 only happens when you keep moving forward at 200MPH and maintain bug compatibility. clojure is moving much much much much slower than windows ever did
14:03	mdrogalis	bbloom: I'm reading this conversations backwards for funsies, but for non-Americans, the price to get a CA is extraordinarily high.
14:04	mdrogalis	Something on the order of $300 for some places in EU.
14:04	bbloom	$300 to mail a letter to the US!?
14:04	hyPiRion	mdrogalis: @_@
14:04	bbloom	i don't believe that
14:04	mdrogalis	Yeah, I was stunned too. Let me find the tweet chain.
14:05	mdrogalis	https://twitter.com/michaelklishin/status/398168946194780161
14:05	mdrogalis	$153. Kinda of off, but not totally.
14:06	bbloom	i still don't believe this
14:06	koreth__	You don't have to use FedEx. Regular mail is not $153 even from Russia.
14:06	mdrogalis	koreth__: I assume you signed it from Russia?
14:06	bbloom	yeah, seriously
14:07	koreth__	No, but I have been to Russia and sent stuff from there to the USA for less than that.
14:07	bbloom	people send postcards from all over the world for a buck or two each
14:07	mdrogalis	I kind of sway back and forth on this topic because I never know how much it actually costs. I never tried to mail something internationally.
14:07	arrdem	I wonder if a CA microdotted onto a postcard would count...
14:08	arrdem	mdrogalis: lived in the UK for three years, international mail gets silly fast
14:08	bbloom	mdrogalis: USPS for a letter form US to Russia is $1.10
14:08	bbloom	mdrogalis: i dunno about the other way
14:08	bbloom	i can't imagine it's dramatically more
14:08	mdrogalis	Perhaps someone should tell Klishin that.
14:08	pjstadig	i think the reason that people might use FedEx is because otherwise you don't get reliable delivery or something
14:09	mdrogalis	Ah
14:09	technomancy	send ten copies of a CA using cheap mail
14:09	mdrogalis	Flooded Durham
14:09	technomancy	that's totally not ridiculous, yeap
14:09	bbloom	technomancy: lol was literally going to suggest TCP mailing
14:11	katox	dnolen: I just caught myself in the bug you mentioned
14:11	dnolen	katox: yes, props will only be what you think it is in render, it could be something different elsewhere
14:12	katox	dnolen: created (om/build component app-state opts) and defined component as (fn [app opts])
14:12	katox	dnolen: the arity checker is fine with that but it is super easy to slip this in
14:14	dnolen	katox: oh that's different problem really, Om might get more runtime validation during development to catch simple errors
14:15	koreth__	To beat a dead horse, I was curious and went to the Russian post office's web site. The cost to mail a registered letter via air mail to the USA is the equivalent of US$2.50. http://www.russianpost.ru/autotarif/Autotarif.aspx?viewPost=13&countryCode=840&typePost=2&viewPostName=Registered%20letter&countryCodeName=USA&typePostName=AVIATION&weight=5&value1=1&postOfficeId=0
14:16	bbloom	koreth__: well there you have it :-)
14:16	katox	dnolen: yeah, I should have written similar not the same
14:16	bbloom	mdrogalis: you're in charge of telling Klishin
14:16	pmonks	Writing and contributing patches can be hard work. Reviewing patches can be (usually is) hard work. There's enough hard work in the contribution process already that it seems rather silly to add more incidental effort by requiring CAs in dead tree format.
14:17	katox	dnolen: the cause the var/param containing something different than one'd expect
14:17	technomancy	pmonks: well if you drive people away, there's less work for you as amaintainer
14:17	pmonks	Are you really a maintainer then?
14:17	mdrogalis	bbloom: Huge sigh I have to do something?
14:17	TimMc	bbloom: I assume the guy knows what he's doing re: mail.
14:17	mdrogalis	Knew I should have just lurked.
14:18	pjstadig	pmonks: sure, you maintain status quo
14:18	technomancy	pmonks: no comment
14:18	bbloom	TimMc: apparently not
14:18	pmonks	:-D
14:18	tbaldrid_	bbloom: technomancy: while we're on the subject of OSS community structure I found this talk interesting: http://vimeo.com/82175816
14:18	TimMc	bbloom: I remember this conversation. He specifically said that regular mail was just not reliable enough.
14:19	tbaldrid_	it's basically a 40min talk about distributed "lock-free" teams of people maintaining code via github.
14:19	bbloom	TimMc: i'm skeptical
14:19	pmonks	I'll shut up now - I'm too dumb to ever be likely to contribute to Clojure (though both maintain and contribute to other OSS).
14:19	TimMc	I mean, he lives in Russia, I don't. It seems silly to me, but I don't have enough information.
14:19	pjstadig	"YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE IS INVALID!"
14:19	insamniac	,(partition 2 '(+ 4 * 3 - 7))
14:19	clojurebot	((+ 4) (* 3) (- 7))
14:20	insamniac	,(-> 2 (+ 4) (* 3) (- 7))
14:20	clojurebot	11
14:20	insamniac	but how do i make this do that:
14:20	insamniac	,(-> 2 (partition 2 '(+ 4 * 3 - 7)))
14:20	clojurebot	((+ 4) (* 3) (- 7))
14:20	insamniac	:(
14:21	mdrogalis	Alright, I told him.
14:21	mdrogalis	Now we wait.
14:21	bbloom	TimMc: my GF is a flight attendant. her nephew in Tennessee had a class project to get postcards from family members. the nephew won by a landslide b/c she sent post cards from all over the world. i just texted her, she said she sent a postcard from saint petersburg for a few bucks & it got there in about a week
14:21	TimMc	insamniac: What is the intended result there?
14:21	insamniac	i want to thread 2 through the results of the partition
14:21	insamniac	instead of threading it into the form that starts with partition
14:21	mdrogalis	Reply: https://twitter.com/michaelklishin/status/420273418433740800
14:21	TimMc	bbloom: The two complaints were latency and reliability.
14:22	TimMc	(and the variability of that latency)
14:22	TEttinger	,(map #(-> 2 %) (partition 2 '(+ 4 * 3 - 7)))
14:22	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.LazySeq cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
14:22	insamniac	zoinks
14:22	bbloom	TimMc: ok, so cost is not a significant barrier. latency for a postcard was about a week, but yes, can vary to many weeks, and i just don't believe that reliability is that big an issue
14:23	TimMc	My point isn't that you can't get a letter from point A to point B, it's that telling someone they may have to wait up to 3 month and send 10 copies is not particularly friendly.
14:23	TEttinger	,(map (fn [[f arg]] (f 2 arg)) (partition 2 '(+ 4 * 3 - 7)))
14:23	clojurebot	(4 3 7)
14:23	bbloom	i'm saying that it's more like up to 6 weeks and it's not 10 copies, it's 1.02 on average
14:23	TimMc	insamniac: -> is a macro, it's modifying the call to partition
14:24	TimMc	##(macroexpand-1 `(-> 2 (partition 2 '(+ 4 * 3 - 7))))
14:24	lazybot	⇒ (clojure.core/partition 2 2 (quote (clojure.core/+ 4 clojure.core/* 3 clojure.core/- 7)))
14:24	bbloom	TimMc: and if you'll recall what i said at the beginning, i agree that the CA should be electronic & that the international complain is the only legitimate one
14:24	TimMc	OK.
14:24	bbloom	complaint*
14:25	mdrogalis	bbloom: Klishin says he's gonna beat you
14:25	mdrogalis	.. That didn't actually happen
14:25	TEttinger	,(map (fn [[f arg]] (f 2 arg)) (partition 2 [+ 4 * 3 - 7]))
14:25	clojurebot	(6 6 -5)
14:25	insamniac	yeah, so instead i want to use the macro to thread the value 2 through the result of partition
14:25	insamniac	,(-> 2 (+ 4) (* 3) (- 7))
14:25	TEttinger	ok, the problem was it remained quoted
14:25	clojurebot	11
14:25	insamniac	is there a pretty way to do that?
14:25	pjstadig	insamniac: right, but the result of partition isn't available until runtime, and macros happen at compile time
14:25	TEttinger	oh you want reduce
14:26	TEttinger	,(reduce (fn [base [f arg]] (f base arg)) 2 (partition 2 [+ 4 * 3 - 7]))
14:26	clojurebot	11
14:27	TimMc	insamniac: (-> FOO (partition BAR BAZ)) is (partition FOO BAR BAZ)
14:27	insamniac	there we go
14:27	insamniac	thanks
14:27	TEttinger	no prob
14:31	TEttinger	oh, insamniac, I don't think it will work on a quoted list. a list may need to be converted to vector first
14:31	TEttinger	,(reduce (fn [base [f arg]] (f base arg)) 2 (partition 2 '(+ 4 * 3 - 7)))
14:31	clojurebot	7
14:31	TEttinger	yeah, just the last element in the list
14:32	pjstadig	with a vector + * and - are actually evaluated to vars, which can be called to invoke their functions
14:32	pjstadig	with a quoted list you are calling the symbol '+ or '* or '- which will return its second argument because the first isn't a map (i think)
14:33	pjstadig	,(+ 2 7)
14:33	clojurebot	9
14:33	pjstadig	,('+ 2 7)
14:33	clojurebot	7
14:33	pjstadig	,('+ {'+ :foo} 7)
14:33	clojurebot	:foo
14:33	TEttinger	I'm actually not sure how to unquote in clojure, I almost never use quotes
14:33	pjstadig	,((eval '+) 2 7)
14:33	clojurebot	9
14:33	pjstadig	TEttinger: eval
14:33	xnil	,`(,+ 2 7)
14:33	clojurebot	(clojure.core/+ 2 7)
14:34	pjstadig	or you could resolve-var
14:34	TEttinger	yeah, that's why I guess. my lazybot forbids eval
14:34	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
14:34	xnil	or quasiquote.
14:34	justin_smith	,(resolve '+)
14:34	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/+
14:34	technomancy	,(doc resolve-var)
14:34	clojurebot	excusez-moi
14:34	llasram	xnil: Your common lisp is showing :-)
14:34	pjstadig	fine...resolve then
14:34	llasram	,`(~+ 1 2)
14:34	clojurebot	(#<core$_PLUS_ clojure.core$_PLUS_@cf767d> 1 2)
14:34	llasram	But you never see that in practice
14:35	technomancy	pjstadig: I thought it was something I didn't know about, heh
14:35	xnil	lol
14:35	justin_smith	resolve is probably the most lightweight / idiomatic way to go from symbol to fn via var
14:35	justin_smith	,((resolve '+) 1 2)
14:35	clojurebot	3
14:35	TimMc	Nonsense, what you really want to do is spit to disk with some wrappings and then load-file.
14:35	TimMc	Clearly superior.
14:35	justin_smith	heh
14:36	pjstadig	or just write a compiler
14:40	dhkl	#node
15:07	gtrak	is there an overview of om-cursors and the 'build' fn anywhere yet? trying to figure out how that works :-).
15:10	noonian	i've just started with om, but my understanding is you call build passing a component, a cursor to be passed to that component, and a map, and anything you put in a map for the :opts key in that map will be passed to the component as a third argument
15:11	noonian	the cursor is your app's state, but it also has info about the path from the root of that state, you can treat it like a map inside your components
15:13	noonian	so if your state is (atom {:m {:foo 17}}) and passed to your root component as 'app', then if you passed a sub-component (:m app) it would get a cursor that acts like {:foo 17} but you update it using om/transact! or om/update! and it can be passed as a cursor to other components
15:14	gtrak	hmm, the cursor is the state, then?
15:14	gtrak	right, there's the get-props function to get it back out
15:15	gtrak	err, hmm. get-state returns __om_state, get props is __om_cursor
15:15	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
15:16	gtrak	it doesn't seem like om-cursor contains state that we're supposed to rely on
15:16	gtrak	but rather framework bookkeeping
15:17	noonian	uh, it depends on which state you want
15:17	noonian	get-state returns the state of the component, which I haven't been using really
15:18	noonian	the cursor is the state of your app at any given moment with info about how to get to it's position relative to the root app's state
15:20	noonian	you could modify the simple example on the github page like this to see an example of using the data in the cursor: https://www.refheap.com/22526
15:21	noonian	if you wanted the data to change you would wrap it in an atom
15:22	gtrak	ah, so that map {:name "Jim"} get merged in with whatever it takes to be a cursor.
15:22	noonian	but still treat the cursor like a map
15:22	noonian	right, it will be a cursor when the component gets it, but you can read from it like a normal map
15:22	gtrak	since you never actually call to-cursor yourself
15:22	gtrak	I see..
15:22	noonian	i don't think so
15:23	gtrak	so, when the examples use 'build', they're passing along the cursor that's passed into the top-level component
15:23	noonian	if you used (atom {:name "Jim"}) and you wanted to update it in the component you could do (om/update! data assoc :name "Bob")
15:23	noonian	right
15:23	gtrak	that makes more sense :-)
15:24	noonian	in the todo example he passes sub-trees of the top-level state, but you can still use update! on it and things because as a cursor it knows how to find that sub-tree in the root state
15:24	noonian	this is totally just my understanding btw and I might be off on a few points
15:25	gtrak	yea, np, pre-alpha, at our own risk and all that :-).
15:25	fredyr	noonian: just a small thing, in your update example
15:25	fredyr	noonian: you need to specify the path
15:26	fredyr	(om/update! data [] assoc :name "bob")
15:26	noonian	i don't think update! expects the path, isn't that for om/transact! ?
15:27	fredyr	well, it did at least
15:27	fredyr	i might have changed since
15:28	dnolen	noonian: both use cursor path information, it's just that transact! can take additional path information
15:29	dnolen	gtrak: cursors are just wrappers around CLJS collections that tracks path information
15:29	dnolen	gtrak: kind of like a weak form of zippers
15:29	noonian	right, update! just uses the path of the cursor you give it and gives the data at that cursor's path to your update fn
15:30	dnolen	gtrak: cursors also represent a kind of weak policy, because applications will be concurrent you can't manipulate cursors outside of the render phase, you can only use them to update app state.
15:31	gtrak	what's it mean to manipulate a cursor?
15:31	dnolen	gtrak: any operation at all beyond updating the app state
15:31	dnolen	gtrak: printing, collection operations, all invalid
15:32	gtrak	say, re-rooting a component?
15:32	gtrak	in the dom?
15:32	gtrak	just trying to think of a use-case
15:32	dnolen	gtrak: there's no such thing in React as re-rooting
15:33	dnolen	gtrak: you will destroy something in one location in the DOM and just recreate it somewhere else.
15:35	bbloom	which is not ideal, but probably not a problem in practice unless your app is 100% focused on drag/drop of excessively complex components :-)
15:38	dnolen	this is a pretty awesome write up on Om which pretty much "gets it" http://adamsolove.com/js/2014/01/06/om-experience-report.html
15:39	gtrak	ah, great
15:41	bbloom	nice
15:43	noonian	thanks
15:44	bbloom	dnolen: heh i like this line in the conceptual overview: "While it may not seem so at first, it's useful to preserve something like React's component local state for two reasons"
15:44	bbloom	:-P
15:45	avshalom	is there the equivalent of (progn ...) in clojure? I noticed this in emacs lisp, but haven't seen it in clojure
15:45	bbloom	avshalom: do
15:45	bbloom	avshalom: many constructs have implicit dos however, like fn and let bodies
15:45	avshalom	bbloom: ah, thank you
15:45	gfredericks	bbloom: holy smokes you're right (about removing cons from ISeq)
15:46	dnolen	bbloom: heh yeah I totally didn't get what you were saying before, totally get it now
15:46	gfredericks	I would've bet upwards of five imperial dollars that wouldn't have compiled
15:46	dnolen	bbloom: React's setState decoupled from rendering is a rock solid idea
15:46	dnolen	bbloom: always being able to detect state transitions is rocking
15:47	jergason	do i need to declare functions before I can use them?
15:47	jergason	or does that all get worked out at compile time?
15:47	bbloom	jergason: generally, declare before use
15:47	bbloom	jergason: there is a "declare" function for late binding, but it's recommended that you only use it for mutual recursion
15:48	jergason	man im coming from LOOSY GOOSY javascript where everything gets hoisted for you
15:48	bbloom	dnolen: i'm really enjoying the evolution of your thinking on this b/c it's a deep lesson in how two super smart people in the same field can just talk right past each other :-)
15:48	jergason	and then running stuff in the repl convinces me it is all in scope at the same time
15:50	bbloom	jergason: yeah, can be misleading that way. sometimes i restart my repl just to make sure i got my declaration order right. i know that dnolen just slaps some extra declare statements in there & patches it up later, which is also a totally valid approach
15:50	logic_prog	dnolen: one of the main thesis of facebook react is "dom updates are expensive, so let's batch them together, opengl-rendering-style, in a requestAnimationFrame" to reduce # of re-flows
15:50	logic_prog	dnolen: is this logic still true if I only manipulate svg nodes, and no css/html nodes?
15:50	bbloom	logic_prog: yes
15:50	logic_prog	dnolen: i.e. my entire webpage is just one gigantic SVG element
15:50	dnolen	logic_prog: yes they are still in the DOM
15:50	logic_prog	bbloom: why? why would an svg element trigger a reflow
15:50	jergason	logic_prog: when you say it like that it is weird that more people aren't doing this
15:50	bbloom	logic_prog: reflows are probably the biggest issue, but not the only one
15:51	schaefer	re Om/React - is there a way to incorporate third-party (non-react) JS widgets?
15:51	bbloom	logic_prog: consider styles too. anything that gets computed by flowing data through dom relationships must be computed on read
15:51	gfredericks	bbloom: so I think removing it prevents programs such as: ISeq x = PersistentList.EMPTY; ISeq y = x.cons(42);
15:51	logic_prog	jergason: yeah, at some point I was like css: absolute, static, relative -- this shit sucks. I just want to say "you, go put yousefl at 50,50
15:51	gfredericks	apparently clojure's java source just doesn't ever do that
15:51	dnolen	schaefer: I think integrating React components is simple
15:51	bbloom	schaefer: yes, see the "refs" in the react docs
15:51	bbloom	schaefer: http://facebook.github.io/react/docs/working-with-the-browser.html
15:52	dnolen	schaefer: any solution for doing that in React probably valid for Om too.
15:52	logic_prog	bbloom, dnolen: noted, thanks for clarifications
15:52	gtrak	dnolen: I can almost make something useful after ~1 hour of looking at it, so it's not that bad :-). I did some game programming in school, it feels like the update/render loops of a scene-graph. One of the exercises we had to do was to make update and render run in separate threads.
15:52	bbloom	gfredericks: something like that :-)
15:52	gtrak	but that was C#.. clojure's way better at this :-)
15:52	seangrove	I think it might be good to give a talk at the first SF cljs meetup on Om
15:52	seangrove	Seems fitting
15:53	schaefer	bbloom dnolen : thanks! i'm primarily a server-side guy building a UI (almost) for the first time. i'm familiar with JS frameworks like Vaadin and RAP but I don't really understand their underpinnings
15:54	bbloom	dnolen: adam's comment about FRP/Rx dataflows rings so true to me
15:54	dnolen	bbloom: 100% agree
15:54	bbloom	dnolen: "yeah, it looks nice now. but you played compiler in your head, manually represented a dataflow... then changed some shit & need to recompile manually too!"
16:16	kschrader	dnolen: Any talks scheduled in NYC about Om?
16:17	dnolen	kschrader: yes I think when it's a bit more fully baked
16:17	kschrader	cool, will watch my giant flood of Meetup emails for something
16:18	petehunt	seangrove: if there's an sf om meetup i'd be happy to represent team react
16:26	tommo	i'm using clojure as a scripting language for my game and i'm trying to load a clojure class at runtime
16:26	tommo	but when i try to instantiate it with newinstance
16:26	tommo	i get this exception: Caused by: java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate cljscript__init.class or cljscript.clj on classpath
16:26	tommo	the compiler doesn't seemto be outputting a __init suffix on any of the output classes
16:27	technomancy	tommo: are you using gen-class?
16:27	tommo	actually scratch that apparently it does
16:27	tommo	i see it right here, and yes
16:27	tommo	so it literally just isnt on the classpath for some weird reason then...
16:27	gtrak	tommo: seems like you should use the clojure runtime itself to require and load namespaces, any reason why not?
16:28	tommo	simply because i already had a scripting api which used java and loaded scripts from classes so i thought it would be a simple impl
16:28	tommo	so i should go for that instead gtrak ?
16:28	gtrak	yea
16:29	gtrak	you don't want to be subject to load-order issues
16:29	tommo	thanks
16:30	gtrak	here's an example: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming/Tutorials_and_Tips#Invoking_Clojure_from_Java
16:30	gtrak	1.6 (not released yet) has a new api for this though
16:31	tommo	cool, will keep my eyes open
16:31	gtrak	might be informative: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/api/API.java
16:32	gtrak	oh huh, I thought that had more in it
16:38	stuartsierra	The Java API is new in Clojure 1.6.
16:39	stuartsierra	oh, someone already said that. nevermind.
16:46	gfredericks	somehow it wouldn't have even ocurred to me to try to fix that problem; but now that clojure.api exists it seems obvious that it had to be fixed :)
16:47	stuartsierra	The "unofficial" API has always been RT.var and Var.invoke.
16:47	gfredericks	which made sense to me since I understand what vars are
16:49	gfredericks	but anybody who doesn't has to conclude that calling clojure from java is hard/weird
16:50	gfredericks	wait it didn't actually get any easier did it?
16:51	hiredman	shrug it still is an ffi, clojure is not java
16:53	gfredericks	I think it was just the fact that it takes two calls to call something; but I guess one call would be a perf antipattern
16:53	tbaldrid_	gfredericks: two callse?
16:53	tbaldrid_	*calls?
16:53	gfredericks	tbaldrid_: one to look up the var, the other to call it
16:54	bbloom	the var lookup is static at compile time in clojure
16:54	hiredman	gfredericks: but the lookup should be in a static init anyway
16:54	tbaldridge	gfredericks: right, the correct way is to look up the var once, and cache it, then call it whenever needed
16:54	akhudek	is there a better way to build specialized namespaces than https://github.com/Prismatic/hiphip/blob/master/src/hiphip/double.clj ?
16:54	gfredericks	tbaldridge: bbloom: hiredman: yep that's what I meant by "perf antipattern"
16:54	bbloom	akhudek: hiredman surely has a macro for you :-)
16:54	hiredman	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1188 http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Improvements+to+interop+from+Java
16:56	hiredman	akhudek: I took a pass at changing how hiphip does it https://github.com/hiredman/hiphip/blob/foo/src/hiphip/impl.clj
16:56	hiredman	the macro isn't very generic and could be better
16:56	tbaldridge	gfredericks: at any rate, it's better than it would be in something like Python. There you'd have to lookup the fn from the module every time you want to call it, that is if you want it to respond to redefs. That's something I see as a major plus in Clojure. Vars are first class, not a entry in a hashmap.
16:57	hiredman	part of the complication is due to the reader qualifying symbols based on ns at read time and resolving classes that way to
16:57	hiredman	vars are super!
16:57	gfredericks	tbaldridge: that's an interesting point
16:59	akhudek	hiredman: is there an advantage to doing it this way?
17:00	stuartsierra	tbaldridge: Yeah, hadn't thought of it that way. There's a performance cost to deref'ing the Var, but that's better than a hash lookup.
17:00	hiredman	akhudek: way less gross in my opion than the read-string thing
17:02	bbloom	stuartsierra: yup, it's just an extra pointer indirection, which the JVM chews through like nobody's business
17:03	hiredman	another alternative might be some using load or load-file directly, which would make the existing approach more palatable to me
17:03	akhudek	hiredman: what are the issues with the load-string approach?
17:04	hiredman	akhudek: the macro approach in generally will play nicer with clojure's compilation model
17:05	hiredman	with the macro approach once the code has been compiled you don't need the compiler any more, with load-string you need the compiler twice
17:06	hiredman	e.g. once to compile the call to load-string, then once when load-string is actually executed
17:06	akhudek	hm, maybe there is a smarter way to accomplish what I'm attempting than specializing namespaces
17:07	akhudek	I'm trying to extract schema's from sql databases into clojure code, then having a set of functions/macros be sepcialized to each extracted schema
17:07	hiredman	statically parameterizable namespaces would be nice
17:07	hiredman	with the macro approach you get real line numbers in errors too
17:08	hiredman	(as real as you ever get from clojure)
17:08	akhudek	that would be very helpful
17:10	hiredman	there was a neat haskell(based?) module system released recently
17:10	hiredman	http://plv.mpi-sws.org/backpack/
17:11	hiredman	it would be interesting to build something like that for clojure as a replacement for the ns macro
17:12	akhudek	this also reminds me of c++ templates
17:12	hiredman	oh sure
17:12	hiredman	very similar with the same code explosion
17:13	hiredman	the load-string approach is the same
17:13	akhudek	yeah
17:13	akhudek	an inherits the same "where the hell did that error come from?" I suppse
17:13	hiredman	maybe? I dunnoo
17:21	akhudek	the basic design problem I have is https://www.refheap.com/22535
17:34	bitemyapp	arrdem: http://i.imgur.com/97juRl7.gif
17:44	hiredman	akhudek: how fluid do you expect the schema to be? e.g. do you need to generate the code for the schema everytime?
17:46	akhudek	hiredman: no, it will be updated rarely. The prototype code I have actually generates a file for it as a preprocessing step. But it could also be done using a memoized call every time the app is compiled.
17:47	akhudek	Not sure which approach is better. Probably the latter as it saves having an extra lein plugin and would also catch differences between production and dev schemas.
17:48	akhudek	Well, assuming you don't aot compile I guess. So maybe not much of a difference.
17:49	hiredman	akhudek: you could also just generate the clojure code once and check it in
17:49	hiredman	(some people seem to be allergic to this approach though)
17:51	akhudek	hiredman: yeah, though I prefer regenerating it as part of the build process. A big motivation for this is to catch errors in user code that talks about database objects. So if your database changes in a bad way (e.g. remove a needed column), then the app code will fail to compile. If you generate once you lose this.
17:51	akhudek	generate the schema once, that is
17:52	[Neurotic]	Quick stupid question - easiest way to do a boolean check if one string is in another? re-find?
17:52	hyPiRion	.contains
17:52	Raynes	&(.contains "foo bar baz" "bar")
17:52	lazybot	⇒ true
17:52	hiredman	akhudek: use core.typed, generate the clojure code once, regenerate the type information everytime and see if it type checks :)
17:52	[Neurotic]	ah just use the interop
17:52	[Neurotic]	fair enough. Cool, will do that then. tag
17:52	[Neurotic]	tha*
17:53	[Neurotic]	tah* :/
17:56	hiredman	http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/173076/information-rich-themes-v4.pdf
17:56	akhudek	hiredman: That would be cool, but how would it handle multiple schemas? E.g. using multiple databases? I need to look into core.typed more deeply. Are you thinking of an approach where you have a 'column' type? Can you define a set of keywords as belonging to a type?
17:58	seangrove	petehunt: Well, a CLJS meetup with a talk on Om
17:58	seangrove	But maybe we'll just do lightning talks and put Om off until next month, give it a little time to settle
17:58	akhudek	hiredman: thanks, that looks very interesting, will read through it
17:58	bitemyapp	seangrove: when is this happening?
17:59	hiredman	akhudek: I dunno, I was sort of joking, it depends on how far you want to push it to what extend that would be useful and how much type annotating you would need to do
17:59	seangrove	bitemyapp: 27th, I think
17:59	seangrove	Waiting for confirmation from Etsy in SF
18:00	seangrove	They're being awesome about hosting it
18:00	bitemyapp	seangrove: is it reasonable to assume CLJS'ers would be interested in the wider scope of functional ->JS languages?
18:00	seangrove	Probably a good fit for a lightning talk
18:00	bitemyapp	that's what I intended
18:00	bitemyapp	seangrove: the 27th would be enough time for me to present on Fay and what kind idioms arise there for things like DOM interaction.
18:00	seangrove	I'd like to see that as well
18:01	hiredman	if you want some kind of tool to catch errors at build time core.typed seems reasonable
18:01	bitemyapp	seangrove: okay, I'll pencil in hammering out a lightning talk for Fay as my co-project alongside the ElasticSearch stuff I'm doing for Simonides.
18:02	seangrove	With all that extra "free time" you have ;)
18:02	bitemyapp	oh yes, tons. I'm positively swimming in free time while trying to get cantankerous half-assed parsers working. :)
18:02	bitemyapp	actually, the most recent one has been pretty great.
18:02	bitemyapp	and the author is very communicative.
18:02	bitemyapp	seangrove: been to Chaya SF yet?
18:03	akhudek	hiredman: I'm not entirely sure where I'm going with this. The current prototype stuff is really quite simple, it just synthesizes some common sql queries. The macro provides checking on column and table names and automatic retrieval by primary key. Our code base has a lot of this sort of boring boilerplate. Something more clever using types could be useful though. Either way, seems like an interesting paper worth reading through.
18:03	seangrove	bitemyapp: By the way, thanks for the tip on ansible. Marissa had it up and running super smoothly in 1.5 days, never doing any sysadmin stuff before
18:03	seangrove	bitemyapp: I think I might have meet someone there a few years ago, not sure...
18:03	bitemyapp	seangrove: yeah ansible is probably the best choice for anybody who hasn't developed any bad habits already.
18:04	bitemyapp	seangrove: ansible is a bit harder for me to swallow because I'm sitting on a massive stockpile of idempotent Python code, haha.
18:04	bitemyapp	it's like trying to get a Common Lisp user to give up their micro-language ecosystem built on the back of sacrificed goats and macros.
18:05	sshack	So what are people using for SQL schema migrations these days? Lobos is missing quite a few of PG datatypes I'd like to use.
18:05	bitemyapp	sshack: use Migratus.
18:05	akhudek	sshack: we use flyway
18:05	bitemyapp	sshack: it's practical, lets you write straight-up sql files, and handles merges intelligently.
18:05	sshack	Will look at both
18:05	bitemyapp	sshack: downers? it's a bit pissy about filenames and timestamp formats.
18:06	akhudek	flyway is similar
18:06	sshack	flyway is java. Recommendations for a clojure based solution?
18:06	bitemyapp	Also, I'm pretty sure the author of Migratus is a crypto-fan of Max Headroom. neutral on that one.
18:06	bitemyapp	sshack: Migratus is Clojure.
18:07	bitemyapp	sshack: it's a leiningen plugin.
18:07	akhudek	sshack: flyway has a command line app and there is a lein plugin, though we don't use the lein plugin.
18:07	sshack	bitemyapp: Currently maintained?
18:07	bitemyapp	sshack: as maintained as it needs to be.
18:07	sshack	akI shall look into it some more then.
18:07	bitemyapp	there's only so many things you can do with executing SQL files based on migration history.
18:07	sshack	bitemyapp: Point.
18:08	bitemyapp	sshack: Clojure projects tend to become "done" faster than those in languages like Java
18:08	bitemyapp	this can sometimes make it hard to tell what's "unmaintained" vs. merely "done"
18:08	rasmusto	how can something that's "infinitely extensible" ever be done?
18:08	rasmusto	:P
18:09	bbloom	rasmusto: just put the extensions outside the radius of the done core & you're good :-)
18:09	sshack	bitemyapp: Have you used migrates with heroku? I don't think there would be any gotcha's, but it never hurts to ask.
18:10	bitemyapp	sshack: hum. I dunno. Only thing is getting the URL syntax right?
18:10	sshack	That shouldn't be a problem.
18:10	bitemyapp	sshack: I generally used a local or production postgres instance with migratus.
18:10	rasmusto	bbloom: ah, ok. speaking of which, is there a good code analysis tool that'll tell me what fns I'm using and which I can deprecate? All of my stuff is contained in a single project
18:10	sshack	Well, I'll have to give it a try.
18:11	bitemyapp	sshack: best way to roll. And seriously though, it's pissy about the filenames. Find a filename example and work off of that.
18:11	rasmusto	kibit/bikeshed?
18:11	sshack	bitemyapp: Thanks for the hint.
18:13	bitemyapp	sshack: I mention this because the last time I used migratus I raged for like an hour trying to remember the fucking format. It's a goddamn death-trap.
18:13	bitemyapp	but once I got it working with my own little migration file generator, I was in heaven.
18:14	sshack	Why did you write a migration generator?
18:15	bitemyapp	it's not a migration generator
18:15	bitemyapp	it's an empty file maker that injects the format into the filename that migratus expects
18:15	bitemyapp	because it wants a migration name and timestamp.
18:16	sshack	That format makes perfect sense to me
18:16	sshack	It's exactly how I'd do it.
18:17	bitemyapp	sshack: well you'll probably jive with pjdstadpidfgjdkgahhhhconsonantsfndig's way of thinking then
18:19	devn	tbaldridge: hola
18:19	devn	tbaldridge: you around?
18:19	tbaldridge	devn: yeah
18:19	devn	ah sweet!
18:19	devn	i was going to try and goad you into taking a moment to weigh in on an overtone thread
18:20	devn	tbaldridge: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/overtone/RmhlMQJL6-k
18:20	sshack	bitemyapp: Who is pjd...?
18:20	devn	see the post at the bottom: sam's questions related to replacing the event system in overtone with core.async
18:21	bitemyapp	sshack: look at migratus' github.
18:22	sshack	ahh.
18:22	devn	tbaldridge: with some guidance, i think sam and company could be convinced, but i simply cannot speak to some of the questions he's raising at the moment
18:24	tbaldridge	devn: I think the main problem would be with the way concurrency is handled in the two systems. Overtone likes to have "hard eventing" I'll call it.
18:24	tbaldridge	That is to say, you can say "run this event at this ms, not one ms sooner or later".
18:25	tbaldridge	Core.async uses alot of queues, and each time an event/go gets scheduled it gets thrown into a thread pool, the exact time that events are run is undefined.
18:25	devn	more "scheduling" than eventing
18:25	sshack	bitemyapp: Ahh I see you wrote a little scaffold generator for migrates id-name-dir-timestamp.sql
18:25	tbaldridge	yeah
18:25	devn	tbaldridge: surely there's some disgusting hack to make that happen in core.async 3:)
18:26	sshack	What -;; separator requirement is annoying. it'd be nice to just have raw sql files.
18:26	devn	s/in/with
18:26	devn	tbaldridge: for some of the stuff he's talking about, i agree with you, it's all about scheduling
18:26	devn	but for other things, the current "at this ms" thing doesn't really map 1:1 with what a user of overtone is trying to do
18:29	devn	tbaldridge: if you're making a sequence of notes that are to be played according to a particular bpm, time signature, etc. i agree we're talking more about scheduling than "eventing", but if you have a sampled piano and want to pass the note value you played to 3 other instruments, i could see core.async being a good fit
18:29	devn	forming connections between fx, insts, etc.
18:30	tbaldridge	devn: agreed, so perhaps using core.async at a higher level is a good idea. But I wouldn't want to build the guts of a synth on it. The interface perhaps.
18:31	devn	like [my guitar] ->> [fx1]+-+[fx2]+-+[fx3]
18:31	devn	tbaldridge: yeah, that might be the ticket
18:32	devn	tbaldridge: in any event, if you feel the urge to weigh in on that thread, it'd be cool to see what comes out of the discussion with sam.
18:32	tbaldridge	sure
18:33	tbaldridge	we talked at CodeMesh in Dec, not about this exactly but we're not strangers at least :-)
18:33	devn	i think for sending notes and what-not from external instruments, core.async is a big win
18:34	devn	the (at) macro can be funky. you specify (now) as an arg to at. I think having that be core.async might be a better fit
18:35	devn	but as i state in that thread, im not an overtone expert and haven't contributed to the core of it, so i might be way off base to suggest that
18:48	arrdem	bitemyapp: har ahr
18:48	arrdem	bitemyapp: level 11.5, grinding der dotaz 'cause toothpick is giving me shit
18:49	bitemyapp	arrdem: <3
18:50	arrdem	thinking of which. is there a favored way to structure assertions and condition checking? I saw dire but haven't played with it yet.
18:53	bitemyapp	arrdem: dire is more for AOP wackos like me.
18:53	bitemyapp	arrdem: especially people that write a lot of services and stuff.
18:54	bitemyapp	arrdem: most people I see using pre-conditions and post-conditions, but that can get out of hand quickly and isn't very composable/clean - which is why I favor dire.
18:54	bitemyapp	there's a better way to do things like AOP/dire (cough monads) but that's for another day.
18:58	alew	so with AOP, you collect all functionality relating to some logical unit (like logging, or authorization) into one module that gets called into and dispatched based on who is calling?
19:00	arrdem	aaand drow fed puck
19:01	tommo_	as suggested earlier i'm now trying to load a clojure file into java through the runtime
19:01	tommo_	but when i call compiler.loadfile i get a nullpointer
19:01	tommo_	which originates from class.getclassloader line
19:01	bitemyapp	arrdem: I am going to positively die when you hit 13 from happiness.
19:01	tommo_	do i need to somehow initialise the runtime before loading anything?
19:01	tommo_	the wiki says it should automatically setup the runtime
19:01	arrdem	bitemyapp: good then I'll get to stop listneing to you talk about monads
19:01	hiredman	don't do that
19:02	hiredman	RT.var("clojure.core","load-file").invoke(...);
19:02	hiredman	(or the java api if you have that)
19:02	tommo_	the files are not on the classpath, btw
19:05	bitemyapp	arrdem: hahahaha. as if.
19:05	sshack	bitemyapp: What behaviour did migratus exhibit when it took issue with your migration filenames?
19:05	bitemyapp	arrdem: I'll be the Tupac of Monads. You'll get my lessons from the GRAAAAAVE
19:05	bitemyapp	sshack: you're going further back in history than my hedonistically ravaged mind can reach.
19:06	sshack	I'm getting an exception here, but it's not clear what's causing it.
19:06	bitemyapp	lancepantz: welcome stranger.
19:06	bitemyapp	sshack: sounds like the clock on your hour of raging just started. Good luck!
19:06	sshack	bitemyapp: Alright. Cheers anyways. Thanks for the heads up one the filename issue.
19:07	tommo_	thanks hiredman, worked
19:07	bitemyapp	sshack: I've got some betting squares going on the over/under for that ~60 minutes, let me know how long it takes in the ed.
19:07	bitemyapp	end*
19:07	bitemyapp	sshack: sensible error messages appear to be foreign to most Clojure libraries/tools
19:08	tommo_	small problem though, originally it was loaded as a class file so i had class level runtime annotations for script metadata
19:08	sshack	Seems to be. Annoying thing is, that'd probably make people overall 4x more productive.
19:08	tommo_	any ideas for a simple way to do a similar thing with the rt?
19:09	arrdem	bitemyapp: I'd tend to agree...
19:09	bitemyapp	sshack: well if they cared about sensible errors and catching things at the right time, it'd have a type system.
19:09	bitemyapp	sshack: but here we are.
19:09	bitemyapp	sshack: My solution is to spread the suffering around and then roll around in it like a dog in mud. Your results may vary.
19:09	sshack	I'd use haskell, but the tooling there is horrible. And no one believes in relational databases (they're not academically interesting anymore)
19:10	bitemyapp	sshack: oh, you gotta pull from the more practical people to find that kind of tooling, like Snoyman's stuff.
19:10	bitemyapp	sshack: what you're thinking of is persistent + postgres bindings + esqueleto.
19:11	bitemyapp	sshack: nothing wrong with Haskell, just the libraries you were aware of. See here: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/esqueleto
19:11	bitemyapp	sshack: idea being, use persistent as a generic backend, specialize query semantics as needed with things like esqueleto.
19:12	sshack	I'm gonna leave haskell alone for a while.
19:12	bitemyapp	sshack: I've found the tooling to be generally better and more reliable than clj so far, with non-overlapping gaps in library coverage (between clj and hs) compared to Python.
19:13	bitemyapp	e.g. Clojure has a bad and unreliable library for ElasticSearch, Haskell has no library beyond simply using the HTTP + JSON stuff.
19:13	sshack	Also, there are many things with absolutely zero library coverage. Like payment processors or mail services (mail gun, postmark, etc)
19:13	bitemyapp	given my druthers, I'd not get fooled and go with the latter scenario.
19:13	bitemyapp	sshack: languages like Haskell and Clojure are for people brave enough to write a library/tool.
19:14	sshack	For now, it seems to be true.
19:14	arrdem	bitemyapp: which is why we like the :D
19:14	bitemyapp	and have done the ROI calculation to determine that they're willing to make the things they want to get the language they want.
19:14	sshack	I've no problem with writing libraries. Just being forced to.
19:14	technomancy	you mean with enough free time?
19:14	sshack	technomancy: Bingo.
19:14	bitemyapp	technomancy: it's just an ROI calculation whose neutral point shifts over time as the library ecosystem matures.
19:14	hiredman	time is always in short supply
19:15	bitemyapp	if you're not going to get a lot of leverage out of a better language then you'd probably be most productive in Rails/Django anyway.
19:15	bitemyapp	copy-pasta your way to nirvana and all that.
19:16	Jarda	user=> (clojure.string/join ":" (split-at 2 "1122"))
19:16	Jarda	"clojure.lang.LazySeq@9e1:clojure.lang.LazySeq@a01"
19:16	Jarda	is this expected?
19:16	Jarda	or I guess it is
19:16	Jarda	but how can I accomplish what I'm trying to do, to get "1122" -> "11:22"
19:16	arrdem	Jarda: interpose may be more useful....
19:16	amalloy	&((juxt str pr-str) (range 3))
19:16	lazybot	⇒ ["clojure.lang.LazySeq@7480" "(0 1 2)"]
19:17	amalloy	ie, don't use str to turn sequences into strings
19:18	amalloy	but you can, say, ##(clojure.stinrg/join ":" (map (partial apply str) (split-at 2 "1122")))
19:18	lazybot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.stinrg
19:18	amalloy	&(clojure.string/join ":" (map (partial apply str) (split-at 2 "1122")))
19:18	lazybot	⇒ "11:22"
19:19	Jarda	amalloy: ok thanks
19:20	alew	bitemyapp: what's wrong with Elastisch?
19:20	arrdem	god I swear I'm gonna start instalocking Drow so that nobody else does....
19:21	bitemyapp	alew: holds face in hand and weeps
19:21	bitemyapp	arrdem: you've turned into a real pubbie now. You've embraced fear and hatred. Let it flow through it, use it as a weapon!
19:22	arrdem	bitemyapp: the rage compells me...
19:22	bitemyapp	arrdem: the hate is swelling in you now. Take your drow bow. Use it. Tiny is unarmed. Strike him down with it. Give in to your anger.
19:27	arrdem	bitemyapp: more like I reach the state of zen beyond trolling and rage
19:28	bitemyapp	arrdem: that's the ticket.
19:28	bitemyapp	arrdem: that's how you go 25-4 in a game your team lost. the zen.
19:30	koreth_	,(apply format (cons "%c%c:%c%c" "1122"))
19:30	clojurebot	"11:22"
19:31	sshack	Is there an easy way to see what class path a leineingens plugin is getting? I'm trying migrates migrations here and missing clojure/java.jdbc
19:32	arrdem	instalock drow here we go.,..
19:32	noonian_	i've found i also get that error sometimes when using aot compilation and i need to lein clean
19:32	noonian_	specifically with java.jdbc
19:34	technomancy	sshack: don't run migrations in a plugin
19:35	akurilin	Anybody else got pinged by Hickey's sister?
19:35	sshack	Why not?
19:35	technomancy	sshack: it just doesn't make sense
19:35	technomancy	it should happen in a project namespace
19:36	sshack	My thoughts are it does. I can have migrations run as a hook during deployment.
19:36	technomancy	you don't need a plugin for that
19:36	technomancy	just use lein run
19:46	bitemyapp	akurilin: ...what?
19:46	bitemyapp	akurilin: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure/-PoYv8wUpwE
19:47	bitemyapp	akurilin: forward me the email please.
19:48	akurilin	bitemyapp: your cma@ account?
19:49	bitemyapp	akurilin: https://www.mail-archive.com/clojure@googlegroups.com/msg76604.html
19:49	bitemyapp	akurilin: son of a...she apparently is Hickey's sister, if rplevy is to be believed.
19:49	bitemyapp	akurilin: yeah why not. I know somebody (not me) that is looking for a Clojure gig and I could toss the hookup over the fence.
19:49	Raynes	I thought we had already established that she was indeed his sister.
19:50	bitemyapp	Raynes: I don't get the mailing list firehose.
19:50	Raynes	No, I mean we talked about this personally when she sent me a recruitment email. Or so I thought.
19:50	Raynes	I mentioned that I had gotten an email from Rich Hickey's sister.
19:50	bitemyapp	Raynes: no, you didn't tell me :(
19:50	bitemyapp	or you talked to otherMe instead of meMe
19:51	Raynes	Perhaps it was someone else I talked about it with...
19:52	bitemyapp	akurilin: danke schön. email forwarded. :)
19:52	akurilin	Anyway, it's cool that clojure is a family business ;)
19:52	bitemyapp	haha, I think his brother did some Clojure here and there too.
19:53	technomancy	he did a bunch of the logos
19:53	technomancy	(and some coding too)
19:54	akurilin	Did he make those $50 tshirts?
19:54	akurilin	Those things better be bespoke ;)
20:04	devn	how do I require cljs.reader in script/repljs?
20:11	dnolen	devn: there still no require REPL special case, would love a patch for that.
20:11	dnolen	devn: there is in-ns, load-file, and a load-namespace special REPL cases
20:24	devn	dnolen: yeah, figured out i had to do it through (ns ...)
20:25	devn	dnolen: could you give me a clue? is the state of the art to turn "{\"foo\": \"bar\"}" into {:foo "bar"} still js*?
20:26	dnolen	cljs.reader/read-string should work
20:26	devn	dnolen: with #js, you mean?
20:26	dnolen	devn: oh are you trying to convert JSON into CLJS data?
20:26	devn	yes
20:27	dnolen	devn: (js->clj (js/JSON.parse ...))
20:28	devn	dnolen: much obliged. it's been awhile since i've clojurescripted and js->clj used to be something hand-rolled
20:28	devn	i didn't know if that's what the cool folks were using
20:30	devn	dnolen: also, i noticed all the tests for #js were on (... "#js ..." ...) and not (... #js ...)
20:31	devn	but that totally doesn't matter. my bad.
20:31	devn	:)
21:06	bitemyapp	arrdem: mumbur?
21:14	deadghost	until now in my mind it was "rick" hickey
21:14	deadghost	rich hickey is kind of a funny name
21:15	gfredericks	,(set "rich hickey")
21:15	clojurebot	#{\space \c \e \h \i ...}
21:16	gfredericks	,(set "richhickey")
21:16	clojurebot	#{\c \e \h \i \k ...}
21:17	deadghost	,(reverse "rich hickey")
21:17	clojurebot	(\y \e \k \c \i ...)
21:17	darthdeus	hey guys, anyone here using lighttable?
21:18	noonian	yeah, i use it
21:18	noonian	it's purty
21:19	darthdeus	are you using the paredit plugin?
21:20	noonian	hmm, it seems to exhibit paredit like behavior but i didn't do anything to set it up
21:21	noonian	i didn't think the plugin system had been release yet
21:21	darthdeus	paredit like behavior? :o
21:21	darthdeus	i've tried this https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/light-table-discussion/BIyWHnRcoWc but some thing don't seem to work
21:21	noonian	i have paredit commands in my command pane
21:22	noonian	what isn't working?
21:22	darthdeus	ah there's a typo, he spelled "shift" as "shit" :D
21:22	noonian	yeah lol i read that in the thread
21:24	darthdeus	i'm kinda noob at paredit thingy, is there a way that i can easily change something like (foo 1) into (bar (foo 1)) ?
21:26	andrew__	llasram: it finally clicked for me, and I get it now. thanks for help.
21:30	noonian	darthdeus: just figured it out, start with (foo 1), then put cursor on the left side of the paren and type '(bar ', then bring up the command pane (or use hotkey) and run "Paredit: Grow Right"
21:31	noonian	sorry, should be '(bar)' then grow right
21:32	darthdeus	perfect, thanks :)
21:32	tommo_	how can i access an instance variable from a java class i'm proxying?
21:34	tommo_	ahh got it
21:34	tommo_	didnt notice the implit this argument
21:35	noonian	do you just use .varname?
21:36	noonian	(.varname obj)?
21:37	tommo_	yep
21:37	noonian	cool
21:37	tommo_	(.varname this)
22:02	andrew__	if into-array creates a Java array (not a Clojure literal of any type), then is there any purpose to using it if your code base is entirely in Clojure and you do not interact with java in any way?
22:04	Raynes	Well, if you need array-like performance.
22:04	noonian	probably not for most programs
22:04	Raynes	But you usually don't.
22:04	Raynes	And if you do, you'll be acutely aware of it.
22:06	Raynes	dnolen has an interesting post about using Java arrays for performance sensitive code in Clojure, but I can't find it since he moved blogs.
22:08	dnolen	andrew__: all the array support in Clojure(Script) is for doing performance sensitive work, if you don't need it don't use it
22:08	Raynes	dnolen: Where is that blog post?
22:08	Raynes	:(
22:08	dnolen	Raynes: posterous
22:08	Raynes	Anything pre-2013 seems to have vanished off the face of the interwebs.
22:08	dnolen	Raynes: I'll never write another blog again on anything that isn't backed by Git that I don't have copies of on my local machine
22:09	Raynes	Oh.
22:09	Raynes	Oh dear. So all of those posts are just lost!?!?!
22:09	dnolen	Raynes: yep
22:09	Raynes	Goodness.
22:09	dnolen	Raynes: hmm actually looks like way back machines archived some of it
22:10	dnolen	er waybackmachine
22:16	myfriend	If I downloaded leiningen, I do not have to manually download the clojure zip from the website right?
22:16	myfriend	my understanding is that clojure is centrally hosted and lein will always pull from the central servers?
22:16	akhudek	myfriend: right
22:17	akhudek	myfriend: the specific version that it pulls is in your project.clj
22:17	myfriend	akhudek, so what about when I don't have an internet connection
22:18	akhudek	myfriend: if you've pulled it at least once in the past it will be cached in your local maven repository under ~/.m2
22:18	hiredman	if you are familiar with maven, that is what lein does
22:18	andrew__	thanks guys, i was wondering what the array support was for
22:18	andrew__	i can feel your pain about lost blog posts.
22:18	myfriend	alright, thank you akhudek
22:41	darthdeus	can i somehow stop lighttable when it's processing stuck in a loop?
22:42	Raynes	kill -9 :p
22:44	lsdafjklsd	dnolen: hey man, is there an issue with updates not being propagated down into build-all components?
22:44	dnolen	lsdafjklsd: not that I'm aware of
22:45	lsdafjklsd	dnolen: maybe I'm just doing something wrong, buy I'm trying to pass owner state from the root, to a UL component, and then into the children li elements that are built through build-all
22:45	lsdafjklsd	dnolen: when I updated the node state, the re-render happens and refreshes properties on the ul component, but code that uses it in the li does not update for some reason
22:46	R_Macy	has anyone had any problems using core.typed with cursive?
22:46	dnolen	lsdafjklsd: did the value actually change for those components?
22:47	lsdafjklsd	dnolen: I'm basically comparing the changed 'current-id' to the id of the li element to set a class
22:47	lsdafjklsd	dnolen: and if it's the same, set the class. so for one I would assume that would eval to true
22:48	dnolen	lsdafjklsd: would need to see a minimal example
22:48	lsdafjklsd	ok
22:55	tommo_	whats the easiest way to convert a variadic arg (arrayseq) into a java array of primitive ints
22:55	tommo_	i tried (ints (into-array Integer args)) but it doesnt work
22:55	S11001001	tommo_: into-array.
22:56	S11001001	tommo_: ints is a type hint, not a coercion function
22:56	tommo_	oh
22:56	S11001001	and Integer is not the primitive int type, it's the class java.lang.Integer
22:56	lsdafjklsd	dnolen: Here is a gist... if you could take a look at it real quick that would be amazing. https://gist.github.com/lsdafjklsd/8294408
22:57	lsdafjklsd	dnolen: It's just a list titles, and when you click an item in the sidebar that becomes active below. simple master child
22:58	dnolen	lsdafjklsd: what version of Om are you on, 0.1.4?
22:58	lsdafjklsd	dnolen: ya
22:58	S11001001	,(into-array Long/TYPE [1,2,3])
22:58	clojurebot	#<long[] [J@c007bd>
22:58	tommo_	and S11001001 the exception is because the values im passing in are actually longs
22:58	S11001001	^ tommo_
22:59	tommo_	yeah, :p
22:59	tommo_	thanks
22:59	S11001001	yeah they are at that
22:59	S11001001	,(into-array Integer/TYPE [1,2,3])
22:59	clojurebot	#<int[] [I@d81e23>
22:59	S11001001	,(into-array Long [1,2,3])
22:59	clojurebot	#<Long[] [Ljava.lang.Long;@14dd6be>
22:59	S11001001	note the type printed
23:00	dnolen	lsdafjklsd: oh are you trying to set the state of a parent from a child?
23:00	tommo_	yeah i thought it was the other way around
23:00	lsdafjklsd	dnolen: ya
23:00	S11001001	,Object/TYPE
23:00	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to find static field: TYPE in class java.lang.Object, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
23:00	dnolen	lsdafjklsd: yeah not going to work and don't plan on supporting that
23:00	lsdafjklsd	dnolen: yea it felt bad
23:01	lsdafjklsd	dnolen: what's the idomatic way? refs?
23:01	dnolen	lsdafjklsd: oh so I see what you're having trouble w/, communicating between parents and children
23:02	lsdafjklsd	dnolen: ya
23:02	dnolen	lsdafjklsd: you could do this a couple of ways, I prefer to use core.async for this
23:02	dnolen	lsdafjklsd: I think passing an atom to the child could also work, and the parent could have a watcher fn on it.
23:03	dnolen	lsdafjklsd: you could also just do it with callbacks too
23:03	lsdafjklsd	dnolen: so the list items would be passed a channel where an active id gets pushed on to, and if it matches their ID add the class?
23:03	dnolen	that's what the React folks do
23:04	lsdafjklsd	dnolen: i'd like to go the core.async route
23:04	dnolen	lsdafjklsd: the parent will get the id and render the children, adding that information to that particular child
23:04	lsdafjklsd	dnolen: ok
23:04	andrew__	why does (compare 10 5) return 1 ? The docs for compare don't really explain this
23:04	andrew__	`1
23:04	lsdafjklsd	dnolen: I tried that here, like in the {:opts {fn, but the child wouldn't refresh, or update
23:05	lsdafjklsd	dnolen: even though the parent UL is firing
23:05	dnolen	lsdafjklsd: because the parent needs to modify the child
23:05	dnolen	lsdafjklsd: it takes some getting used to but you basically always need to flow information down
23:05	lsdafjklsd	dnolen: like doing assoc on the e right?
23:05	dnolen	lsdafjklsd: yep associng some data onto the child
23:06	lsdafjklsd	hmm I'll try that again, that seems good
23:06	lsdafjklsd	dnolen: good info, still learning the ropes. really appreciate you taking a look at it
23:06	dnolen	lsdafjklsd: no problem
23:06	dnolen	lsdafjklsd: the TodoMVC has to do this exact same thing for which child is being edited
23:07	dnolen	lsdafjklsd: worth taking a look at
23:07	lsdafjklsd	dnolen: ok
23:07	lsdafjklsd	dnolen: and while I have you, when I use build, what is the owner in the component?
23:07	lsdafjklsd	dnolen: itself?
23:07	dnolen	lsdafjklsd: https://github.com/swannodette/todomvc/blob/gh-pages/labs/architecture-examples/om/src/todomvc/app.cljs#L58
23:08	dnolen	lsdafjklsd: owner is the real backing React component
23:09	lsdafjklsd	dnolen: so if I build something from the root render fn, that built items 'owner' arg is the react component of itself, not the root?
23:09	dnolen	lsdafjklsd: not the reify instance, that why the first argument to all the life cycle methods are ignored unless you need to implement some other stuff for some reason
23:09	mtndew4brkfst	andrew__: looks like compare functions similarly to < and > and goes left to right, and left (10) is greater than right (5) so it returns a positive int
23:09	andrew__	ah, thanks, that makes sense
23:09	dnolen	lsdafjklsd: yes, only the function you pass to om/root can get at the root React backing component
23:10	lsdafjklsd	dnolen: gotcha
23:10	lsdafjklsd	dnolen: it's not inject itself into the child component as the owner argument
23:10	dnolen	lsdafjklsd: no it does not
23:10	lsdafjklsd	dnolen: awesome, thanks again man
23:11	dnolen	lsdafjklsd: every time you call build you're constructing a React component behind the scenes
23:11	lsdafjklsd	dnolen: that sortable example is a gift too, holy cow
23:11	dnolen	lsdafjklsd: that delegates to your reify instance
23:11	dnolen	lsdafjklsd: yeah that was fun to do, very impressed w/ React.
23:11	lsdafjklsd	dnolen: perfect, that's what I thought
23:13	andrew__	there is an arity for sort-by that looks like this: (sort-by keyfn comp coll) but the docs do not say what "comp" represents, can anyone advise?
23:14	mtndew4brkfst	comparitor function, maybe?
23:15	andrew__	actually, now I get it, I see comp is the optional comparator function
23:15	andrew__	i tend to need docs to be more explicit, i'll have to get used to that