#clojure – 2014-01-02

2014-01-02

00:00	marcopolo`	http://bit.ly/1a2uY0C is the class I'm working with
00:00	marcopolo`	Like a factory, but for itself
00:01	marcopolo`	The method I'm talking about is getSocketFactory()
00:02	marcopolo`	Could I make a wrapper class that has a constructor which calls that method?
00:02	marcopolo`	Is there a way to subclass in clojure?
00:02	TEttinger	http://grepcode.com/file/repo1.maven.org/maven2/org.apache.httpcomponents/httpclient/4.1/org/apache/http/conn/ssl/SSLSocketFactory.java#SSLSocketFactory.%3Cinit%3E%28java.lang.String%2Cjava.security.KeyStore%2Cjava.lang.String%2Cjava.security.KeyStore%2Cjava.security.SecureRandom%2Corg.apache.http.conn.ssl.X509HostnameVerifier%29
00:02	TEttinger	it appears to have public constructors
00:02	gtrak	proxy can do it, genclass can do it.
00:02	TEttinger	just not no-arg constructors
00:03	TEttinger	marcopolo`, yeah, subclassing is definitely possible with proxy and genclass, maybe reify
00:04	gtrak	reify no
00:04	gtrak	reify just handles clojure protocols and java interfaces
00:04	marcopolo`	TEttinger: ideally, I'd like to use to no-arg constructor.
00:05	marcopolo`	I can override the constructor with gen-class/proxy?
00:08	TEttinger	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/gen-class yes with gen-class
00:08	TEttinger	there's a :constructor section in there
00:11	marcopolo`	Thanks :)
00:19	danlentz	devn: y by namespace is ok so im past that hurdle. no i am strugling to get lein-autodoc to work
00:20	danlentz	cmdline java-jar is fine
00:20	danlentz	lein autodoc -> Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: lancet/core$WsdlToDotnet (wrong name: lancet/core$wsdltodotnet)
00:20	danlentz	what the hell is a lancet?!
00:21	mullr	lancet \|ˈlansit\|
00:21	mullr	noun
00:21	mullr	1 a small, broad, two-edged surgical knife or blade with a sharp point.
00:21	mullr	2 a lancet arch or window.
00:21	mullr	• [ as modifier ] shaped like a lancet arch: a lancet clock.
00:21	danlentz	and why does autodoc need it?
00:21	danlentz	it is certainly drawing blood :)
00:21	mullr	my dictionary doesn't know the answer to that
00:22	danlentz	ah hold on. lein autodoc is probably looking in ~/.m2
00:22	danlentz	for the jar
00:22	danlentz	ah.
00:22	danlentz	tks sometimes it helps to just gripe and things become clear
00:22	danlentz	:)
02:00	hydromet	hello, I'm a clojure newbie (and having a lot of fun getting to know it, using Light Table, and just recently purchased the O'Reilly book by Chas et al)
02:00	TEttinger	hy hydromet
02:01	TEttinger	*hi
02:01	arrdem	TEttinger: hipster
02:01	hydromet	I was listening yesterday to a presentation Rich gave several years ago to an audience of Java programmers and at one point Rich was describing macros
02:01	hydromet	hello TEttinger!
02:02	TEttinger	arrdem: I did have a neckbeard before it was hip.
02:02	arrdem	TEttinger: I'm so sorry.
02:02	hydromet	Rich at one point said that one of the beautiful things about macros is that they can be used to extend the language of Clojure itself, giving programmers the same power as Rich himself (since Rich created Clojure)
02:03	hydromet	He also said this is a much better approach than having to beg and wait for Sun (this was before Sun was acquired by Oracle) to make changes to Java if someone wanted to extend Java
02:03	bbloom	arrdem: i also hate that, so annoying
02:03	hydromet	So here's what I don't understand ...
02:03	hydromet	Since Clojure in and of itself is open source (Eclipse License), what would prevent someone from modifying Clojure regardless of using macros or otherwise?
02:04	arrdem	hydromet: modifying clojure to achieve what...
02:04	TEttinger	it's modifying in your code, rather than changing the compiler/reader
02:04	arrdem	hydromet: rebind a clojure.core symbol like +?
02:04	arrdem	hydromet: add a Haskell typechecker? gotta give us more to work with here
02:04	hydromet	well Rich's point was that the power of macros is to syntactically change the language (I thought)
02:05	arrdem	eeeeh
02:05	TEttinger	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/stable/project.clj#L4 here's an example. defproject isn't part of the language
02:05	arrdem	since we don't have reader macros I would disagree. macros add syntactic sugar, they can't alter the syntax of the language.
02:05	TEttinger	it was added by the leiningen code, but otherwise acts like defn
02:05	hydromet	I just didn't quite understand why he, in the context of talking about macros, said something about having to beg and wait for Sun (Oracle) to make changes to Java
02:05	arrdem	hydromet: link to the talk?
02:06	hydromet	arrdem: sure, one moment, let me find it
02:06	TEttinger	hydromet, well if you change java, your changes won't be usable by end users
02:06	TEttinger	or rather, if you change the JVM
02:07	hydromet	arrdem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P76Vbsk_3J0
02:07	TEttinger	which is what apparently would be needed to, say, add lambdas to java
02:08	hydromet	TEttinger: but if you use a macro to change itself in Clojure, that doesn't mean your macro becomes available to end users does it? Do you mean end users who run the program (using JRE only, no JDK etc.)?
02:08	hydromet	TEttinger: or do you mean available to the rest of the programming community?
02:09	hydromet	arrdem: I'll try to find the point in that video where he says that, one moment please
02:10	hydromet	arrdem: 1:13:00
02:10	TEttinger	no no, I mean, you could try to add defproject as a keyword to java, but it would take a change to the parser to have the java definition of defproject not try to evaluate the names inside. in clojure you can control what gets evaluated, like how if doesn't execute the branch that the condition doesn't lead to
02:10	hydromet	"what's beautiful about Clojure and Lisps ..."
02:11	arrdem	hydromet: mmkay hang on
02:11	TEttinger	hydromet, does that makes sense?
02:12	TEttinger	java's ability to control what gets evaluated/compiled is limited
02:12	TEttinger	clojure has pretty much full control
02:13	hydromet	arrdem: Rich says at about 1:13:00 "What's beautiful about Clojure and Lisps, you at the same power that I have to write macros"
02:13	hydromet	arrdem: "You don't have to wait for me, I'm not Sun"
02:13	hydromet	bingo! Why does Rich say this "I'm not Sun"?
02:14	arrdem	hydromet: so... do you understand how macros interact with the compiler?
02:14	TEttinger	when people wanted changes to core java features, they needed to wait for sun/oracle to make changes
02:14	hydromet	I don't write Java and don't understand enough about Sun / Oracle. I thought they had some weird not fully transparent licensing issues which is why Larry Ellison and Google ended up in a big court battle over Android's Dalvik "clean room" Java systems etc. (ugh)
02:15	arrdem	TEttinger: choose. [1,3] or [4,6]
02:15	Ember-	Sun Microsystems was aquired by Oracle few years back
02:15	Ember-	there is no Sun Microsystems anymore
02:15	arrdem	Ember-: not helping...
02:15	TEttinger	arrdem: [[LInteger
02:15	arrdem	1d2
02:15	clojurebot	2
02:15	arrdem	okay.
02:16	arrdem	TEttinger: he's yours.
02:16	hydromet	arrdem: so clearly I have a gap in my newbie understanding of how Clojure macros work and what if anything this has to do with open source licensing (comparing to Sun/Oracle Larry Ellison et al)
02:16	TEttinger	heh
02:16	TEttinger	hydromet, it has to do with this
02:16	Ember-	hydromet: opensource licensing and clojure macros have absolutely nothing to do with each other
02:16	arrdem	hydromet: you are taking Rich too literally when he talks about extending the language.
02:16	hydromet	Ember: thanks
02:16	hydromet	arrdem: ah!
02:16	Cr8	better phrasing
02:16	Ember-	macros are a language feature
02:17	TEttinger	java is written in a lower-level language, I think mostly C++. you can't extend the compiler in java.
02:17	Cr8	you are able to add functionality that would normally require a change to the language
02:17	TEttinger	clojure is mostly written in clojure
02:17	Cr8	without actually having to change the language
02:17	arrdem	hydromet: macros are a compiler structure which allow a programmer to express some operation in terms of compile time code generation not built into the language core
02:17	Ember-	clojure macros are comparable to C macros but they are way more powerful
02:17	TEttinger	not all, some parts are java or javascript (for cljs)
02:17	hydromet	TEttinger: that makes sense (not being able to extend the Java compiler, itself written in C++)
02:17	TEttinger	right, but macros go one step further
02:18	Ember-	the main difference between clojure macros and other clojure code is that clojure macros are executed on compile time
02:18	TEttinger	they expose the ability to change the compiler to code
02:18	Ember-	that results the macro code being replaced by the outcome of that macro code being executed and spitting clojure code out
02:18	Ember-	thus the final clojure source code "file" which is compiled to .class files is different than what is sitting on your hard drive
02:18	TEttinger	yep
02:19	Ember-	this allows you to do stuff not otherwise possible
02:19	hydromet	Ember: I thought I heard Rich say (in that same presentation that I gave the link to) that Clojure macros should not be confused with simple C macros
02:19	Ember-	hydromet: indeed they shouldn't
02:19	TEttinger	they should not.
02:19	arrdem	hydromet: yes you did hear that, and they should not be
02:19	Ember-	clojure macros are way way more powerful
02:19	arrdem	hydromet: C macros are simple textual replace operations
02:19	hydromet	C macros are essentially about text substitution at compile time, no?
02:19	Cr8	yep
02:20	Cr8	where as lispy macros are structural
02:20	arrdem	hydromet: Clojure and Lisp macros are full blown code execution for code generation
02:20	Ember-	with clojure macros you can modify clojure code on fly
02:20	arrdem	no no no you _WRITE_ code _WITH_ code
02:20	hydromet	Clojure macros are programs that ask the compiler to transform itself (something like that)?
02:20	Ember-	in clojure code is data and data is code
02:21	Ember-	hydromet: macros are compile time execution rules
02:21	hydromet	Ember: this is definitely a foreign concept for me so I have to get my brain wrapped around it (I will definitely do so)
02:21	Ember-	clojure compiler works in two phases, first it executes the macros and then it compiles the resulting code into .class files
02:21	arrdem	Okay. Example?
02:21	TEttinger	hydromet, I wouldn't worry too much about macros at the new-user stage. 2 years in and I still haven't written (or needed to write) a defmacro. I anticipate I may soon.
02:21	hydromet	arrdem: I thought you were going to sleep? ;-)
02:22	seriously_random	question about cons: http://pastebin.com/vriyG8ps
02:22	Cr8	,(clojure.walk/macroexpand-all '(-> 6 inc (/ 2)))
02:22	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.walk>
02:22	arrdem	hydromet: SOMEONE IS WRONG ON THE INTERNET
02:22	Cr8	aw
02:22	Ember-	and yesh, the first rule of the macro club is: you do not write macros
02:22	Cr8	&(clojure.walk/macroexpand-all '(-> 6 inc (/ 2)))
02:22	Ember-	:)
02:22	lazybot	⇒ (/ (inc 6) 2)
02:22	Cr8	no that guy is not here
02:22	hydromet	arrdem: huh?
02:22	Cr8	oh yes he is
02:22	logic_prog	in clojurescript, how do I encode HTML encode strings? i.e. "<->" into a literal "<->", rather than be interpreted as a tag
02:22	Ember-	the main reason for this is the fact that macros get really confusing really fast if not used properly
02:23	Ember-	and most of the time just plain functions are a better solution
02:23	oakwise	dnolen: am I wrong that om/build-all with a transforming :fn will always update all of the items because identity is changing? E.g. I've got a large list of titles that I want to live filter using a search input. The :fn does `(assoc item :hidden true)` when item is filtered out, which causes all hidden items to be updated at every update to the search input. Am I doing it wrong? Does the hidden attribute have to be part of the item's sta
02:23	oakwise	for this to work correctly?
02:23	hydromet	TEttinger: Indeed, your suggestion of not needing to tackle macros as a newbie sounds wise, and in that video I think Rich mentioned that its probably not apt for a newcomer
02:23	Ember-	but when you really need macros then oh boy you're happy you are using clojure
02:23	TEttinger	yeah. to start with, hydromet, I'd recommend learning the core functional programming parts of the library: apply, map, reduce, filter.
02:23	Ember-	hydromet: I've so far written like 10 macros in total. Most of them just to fiddle around
02:23	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
02:24	Ember-	one or two are actually in real production code
02:24	TEttinger	also, 4clojure is excellent
02:24	Ember-	and at the same time I've written thousands of clojure functions
02:24	Ember-	just to give some perspective here
02:24	hydromet	Ember: and TEttinger: thanks so very much for helping to clear this up ... I guess I got kind of hung up on the part about macros and Rich saying he's not Sun (in the comparison with Java)
02:24	TEttinger	heh
02:25	Ember-	hydromet: no problem, that's the reason #clojure exists :)
02:25	hydromet	My more recent programming has been in Ruby and I only briefly looked at Java in the late 1990s (before that it was Objective-C on NeXT machines)
02:25	Ember-	to help out fellow clojure programmers or those who want to become one
02:25	TEttinger	it's easy to get stuck on these talks, I have found myself confused by seemingly weird parts in a talk and I just can't think about the rest for a bit...
02:25	hydromet	The Clojure community rocks!
02:26	marcopolo`	)
02:26	hydromet	This is the most fun I've had learning a new program in a long time!
02:26	TEttinger	yep
02:26	Ember-	glad to have helped you out
02:26	Ember-	now I need more coffee
02:26	TEttinger	it's a very expressive language.
02:26	hydromet	The first language I learned at the univ. was Fortran believe it or not (my background being geophysical sciences)
02:26	TEttinger	fortran 77?
02:26	TEttinger	I know there was a long gap without a new version
02:26	hydromet	So to see Clojure has roots to Lisp and Lisp roots to McCarthy and McCarthy was around when Fortran was created, is all quite cool!
02:26	arrdem	the only thing on earth faster than C....
02:27	TEttinger	is optimized C?
02:27	marcopolo`	is there a way to recompile classes within the repl?
02:27	alew	It's very liberating to have macros. Sometimes you run into these code structure patterns that you can't really put into a function but feel like they could be abstracted away. That's usually when macros become really useful
02:27	arrdem	TEttinger: is F77
02:27	TEttinger	(doc compile)
02:27	clojurebot	"([lib]); Compiles the namespace named by the symbol lib into a set of classfiles. The source for the lib must be in a proper classpath-relative directory. The output files will go into the directory specified by compile-path, and that directory too must be in the classpath."
02:27	hydromet	TEttinger: I can't recall if it was Fortran 77 or not (forgot already!)
02:27	arrdem	hydromet: good. you don't want to be writing that stuff
02:28	hydromet	arrdem: believe it or not, a lot of hydrology and meteorology to this day in the year 2014 is still written and maintained in Fortran (like weather models)!
02:28	marcopolo`	thanks
02:28	arrdem	hydromet: I'm in the HPC community at $UNIVERSITY. Believe me I know how relivant f77 still is.
02:29	arrdem	hydromet: I just never want to have to write/debug it :P
02:29	hydromet	arrdem: very cool that you're in HPC
02:30	hydromet	arrdem: is there any chance traditional / legacy HPC stuff might be migrated away from F77 to Clojure? Imagine running a climate model on the JVM via Clojure!
02:31	arrdem	ugh......
02:31	arrdem	the performance slowdown...
02:31	arrdem	the pain...
02:31	TEttinger	hydromet, I think more likely is something like X10
02:31	TEttinger	it has IBM's backing and is really very close to HPC Scala
02:31	TEttinger	but no not for a long time
02:32	arrdem	hydromet: the issue with HPC codes is the development cycle on them
02:32	hydromet	arrdem: although for dynamical models (resolving at grid points, using finite differencing etc.) I suppose its hard to beat F77
02:32	arrdem	hydromet: your average HPC code has been handed down through four or five generations of grad students and is a total hairball
02:32	hydromet	TEttinger: interesting, I haven't heard of X10 and didn't realize there was is "HPC Scala"
02:32	arrdem	hydromet: F77 can write good code as can Perl the issue is that the users don't write good code
02:33	TEttinger	no, I mean
02:33	TEttinger	it's an HPC kind of language, but it's similar to Scala in features
02:33	hydromet	arrdem: hairball is a good description! I imagine there are similar issues in gov organizations with F77 code like NOAA
02:34	TEttinger	so it has stuff for locality when distributing code, but also some medium-strength functional programming features
02:34	hydromet	TEttinger: good point, its not always about the language itself but about who is writing the code!
02:34	arrdem	hydromet: that's me being polite in good company :P I'm on UT Austin's Student Cluster Competition team so I'm involved in building and running some of the gnarliest codes out there
02:34	arrdem	hydromet: I've seen some shit man....
02:34	alew	choice of programming languages is more of a social one and legacy one than a technological one it seems
02:34	hydromet	TEttinger: can Clojure process large arrays of data fairly speedily? (like grids of data points)?
02:35	nones	is quil no longer developed?
02:35	arrdem	alew: mostly agreed... but F77 and C have Java numeric performance totally beat.
02:35	TEttinger	it's how prismatic works. take a look at hiphip, hydromet
02:35	arrdem	alew: when you really really do need to go fast you need different tools
02:35	marcopolo`	hydromet: it can be just as fast as java
02:35	arrdem	I do hope that changes, but it's the status quo
02:35	TEttinger	https://github.com/Prismatic/hiphip
02:35	alew	arrdem: yeah, but those situations are sooo sooo infrequent
02:36	hydromet	arrdem: Good grief, it sounds like you've got your hands full with that competition! Good luck!
02:36	arrdem	hydromet: we just won for the 2nd year in a row :D
02:36	hydromet	TEttinger: thanks, I wil take a look at both prismatic and hiphip
02:36	arrdem	hydromet: my hands are empty for eight more glorious months
02:36	hydromet	arrdem: congrats!
02:37	hydromet	arrdem: so is your next project going to be clustering a boat load of the new Mac Pro towers and running some Clojure with OpenCL on those graphics cards (just kidding)
02:37	seriously_random	noob question: fn[...] in reduce can have more than two variables beside accumulator and element in a sequence, e.g. fn [acc x]?
02:37	TEttinger	hydromet, it only makes sense if you already know the equivalents in clojure's collections functions to what hiphip does to arrays
02:37	hydromet	macropolo`: do you run a lot of numerical stuff on Clojure?
02:38	arrdem	hydromet: if that's what you're up to let me know how you do it.. Clojure doesn't have a very well developed multi host parallelism toolkit that I know of
02:38	TEttinger	I would not recommend doing heavy math in clojure... yet. heavy, complex data transformations, oh god yes.
02:38	arrdem	(inc TEttinger)
02:38	lazybot	⇒ 10
02:38	marcopolo`	hydromet: I have. bits and pieces of data analysis at work
02:39	hydromet	TEttinger: in the Python community apparently NumPy (Numerical Python) has been well received by some, is there anything like NumPy for Clojure?
02:39	TEttinger	that said, I do quite a bit of simple math in clojure for a non-really-real-time game. and it has needed some optimizing, but it runs quite well now.
02:39	marcopolo`	There's Incanter
02:39	TEttinger	numpy is a binding over BLAS right?
02:39	arrdem	seriously_random: not that I know of. The usual pattern is to use an accumulator map which contains multiple meaningful keys
02:39	marcopolo`	core.matrix, if you need to do things with matrices
02:40	arrdem	TEttinger: and appropriage python C extension hooks yes
02:40	marcopolo`	and if you really need to get performant with math, you can use https://github.com/ztellman/primitive-math
02:40	TEttinger	yeah, vectorz or the LAPACK binding for core.matrix would work
02:40	hydromet	marcopolo`: ah yes! I think had seen something a few weeks agoa bout core.matrix ... I should give it a try
02:40	marcopolo`	which makes sure to keep math as primitive types to make as fast as possible
02:40	marcopolo`	honestly you should be able to get faster speeds in clojure than in python
02:41	arrdem	lol yes
02:41	hydromet	TEttinger: good question about NumPy, I'm not sure if its binding over BLAS but that could very well be the case
02:41	alew	always blows my mind that python is older than java
02:41	arrdem	marcopolo`: that's not saying much tho...
02:41	TEttinger	seriously_random, there are some good examples on the clojuredocs thing for reduce
02:41	logic_prog	https://gist.github.com/anonymous/8216063 <-- is there a more efficient way or writing this?
02:41	marcopolo`	hydromet: just remember mmul is to multiply matrices, that tripped me up for a while
02:42	arrdem	logic_prog: you don't need that or...
02:42	marcopolo`	arrdem: :) let me change that to faster runtime & faster dev time; that's a bit more impressive
02:42	arrdem	#(get symbol_map %1 %1)
02:42	logic_prog	arrdem: whoa, cool, default value ftw
02:42	arrdem	logic_prog: otherwise looks good
02:43	hydromet	marcopolo`: thank you for the heads up! A friend of mine (who is new to programming) and I are both learning Clojure together. He is an undergrad majoring both math and finance. His classmates learned Matlab but he's totally game to learn Clojure (but he also wants to do math-y stuff like matrix operations)
02:43	logic_prog	arrdem: that's disappointing -- there's no better way to do this?
02:43	arrdem	logic_prog: that's exactly how I'd do it at least...
02:43	marcopolo`	hydromet: where are you going to school?
02:43	marcopolo`	logic_prog: hash-maps also work as fns
02:44	marcopolo`	,({:foo 3} :bar 4)
02:44	arrdem	logic_prog: you may be able to do an (into "") rather than (apply str) but the basic approach I think is not gonna change
02:44	hydromet	marcopolo`: Univ. of Hawaii (I'm not in school but my friend is ... I just do some guest lecturing)
02:44	clojurebot	4
02:45	hydromet	marcopolo`: are you in school too? or do you teach?
02:45	alex_batsuev	Hi, could someone help me with ring-json and peridot?
02:45	alex_batsuev	trying to parse response from request
02:45	alex_batsuev	https://gist.github.com/batsuev/d8d1b28910f09e62a9dd
02:45	alex_batsuev	and got null :(
02:46	logic_prog	marcopolo` , arrdem: noted, thanks
02:46	marcopolo`	hydromet: nice! get them hooked on Clojure!
02:47	seriously_random	TEttinger, what if I want to change the rest of sequence at each loop? Is reduce not meant for this? http://pastebin.com/5nBdVja4
02:47	TEttinger	sure, you can do it. let me take a look
02:48	hydromet	marcopolo`: I really enjoyed watching one of Rich Hickey's presentations from a few years ago "The Value of Values" where he talks about the "PLOP" model being outdated!
02:49	marcopolo`	Is there something special I have to do to override a class's methods in gen-class?
02:49	marcopolo`	hydromet: Yeah those are always great! there's a list here of his talks http://thechangelog.com/rich-hickeys-greatest-hits/
02:51	hydromet	Does anyone know when and where Clojure Conj 2014 will be held?
02:52	hydromet	I didn't find anything about 2014 dates / places on the web
02:52	marcopolo`	hydromet: a bit too early to know for sure
02:52	TEttinger	it's 2014 already whaaaaa
02:52	hydromet	heh
02:52	marcopolo`	did you go to the last one?
02:53	hydromet	no, I've never attended a Clojure Conj but I want to attend the next one
02:53	arrdem	hydromet: word on the street is SF
02:53	arrdem	hydromet: but there's nothing official at this point
02:53	hydromet	arrdem: that would be fun
02:54	marcopolo`	wouldn't that conflict with clojure/west?
02:55	hydromet	Is Clojurescript gaining some momentum lately, now that we've entered the Gregorian calendar year 2014?
02:59	marcopolo`	Does it look like I'm doing anything wrong w/ gen-class? https://www.refheap.com/22377
02:59	marcopolo`	I'm adding socks proxy support to clj-http, but the ssl support is being really annoying
03:00	TEttinger	marcopolo`, a little
03:00	TEttinger	the java object is already mutable where you declare one dynamic
03:00	TEttinger	(InetSocketAddress. "localhost" 8118) is already a mutable object
03:02	marcopolo`	I'm planning on doing a binding for that so you can make per request based proxies
03:04	marcopolo`	It doesn't seem like it's overridding the methods
03:04	marcopolo`	It is definetely extending the class, but my methods like toString or the nil'ed connectSocket don't appear
03:19	marcopolo`	From the docs: "SSLSocketFactory is deprecated, use SSLConnectionSocketFactory"
03:19	marcopolo`	...
04:11	sm0ke	,java.util.Date.
04:11	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: java.util.Date., compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
04:11	sm0ke	,(java.util.Date.)
04:11	clojurebot	#inst "2014-01-02T09:09:45.869-00:00"
04:12	nones	is anyone use Nightcode?
04:12	sm0ke	,(1000 / 10)
04:12	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
04:12	sm0ke	heh
04:12	sm0ke	,(/ 100 10)
04:12	clojurebot	10
04:17	TEttinger	nones, I looked at it.
04:17	TEttinger	I may have installed it
04:21	nones	TEttinger: I can't to build it from master
04:21	TEttinger	I didn't try, I'm not sure what it really does
04:21	TEttinger	that light table doesn't
04:24	nones	it can't load main java class
04:25	TEttinger	are you running the jar with -jar
04:25	nones	I running by `lein run`
04:25	nones	from source code
04:26	TEttinger	ok... check the project.clj , is there a :main ns and the same ns listed under :aot
04:27	nones	:aot [clojure.main nightcode.core nightcode.leinv]
04:27	nones	:main ^:skip-aot nightcode.Main
04:28	TEttinger	I went to their page, will download and try
04:28	nones	from jar it works, but from source code it don't want starting
04:32	roland	susp
04:32	TEttinger	ect
04:34	TEttinger	nones, try "lein javac" first
04:34	TEttinger	it has 5 java source files to compile
04:35	TEttinger	I didn't have any trouble
04:35	TEttinger	lein deps ; lein javac ; lein run
04:37	sm0ke	how do i set an atom to different value
04:37	sm0ke	is there a set! ?
04:38	nones	sm0ke: use reset!
04:38	arcatan	(reset! foo-atom nev-value)
04:39	sm0ke	ah!
04:39	sm0ke	nones: thanks
04:39	sm0ke	,@(reset! (atom true) false)
04:39	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Boolean cannot be cast to java.util.concurrent.Future>
04:39	sm0ke	,(reset! (atom true) false)
04:39	clojurebot	false
04:40	sm0ke	weird that there is no mention of reset! on this page http://clojure.org/atoms
04:41	TEttinger	woah sm0ke, that is weird
04:45	sm0ke	well its weird for me
04:45	sm0ke	ymmv
04:51	Cr8	,(let [a (atom true)] (reset! a false) @a)
04:51	clojurebot	false
04:52	TEttinger	sm0ke, what's weird about it is most of the pages on the site have a listing of relevant fns. that has no listing
04:55	nones	TEttinger: thanks, it works now
04:56	TEttinger	hooray
05:52	sm0ke	does core.async works in android?
05:57	Cr8	no reason to think it shouldn't. Uses java.util.concurrent but android has an impl of that stuff
06:36	sm0ke	i have a let form in my namespace when i put that namepace in aot it is getting executed!
06:36	sm0ke	at compile time!
06:37	sm0ke	and it is obviously throwing stupid errors
06:53	jowag	sm0ke: all top level forms are evaluated when compiling
06:58	jowag	sm0ke: you should not perform I/O or any stateful stuff in top level forms, 'cause you'll never anticipate all cases where the namespace gets evaluated.
07:03	jowag	sm0ke: you should not perform I/O or any stateful stuff in top level forms, 'cause you'll never anticipate all cases where the namespace gets evaluated.
07:05	alex_batsuev	Hi, could you please tell me what am I doing wrong? :) trying to make simple json server with test using peridot and ring-json, but don't understand how to check response: https://gist.github.com/batsuev/d8d1b28910f09e62a9dd Thanks.
07:07	seriously_random	quick way to create a list of (1) n times? e.g. 3 times: ((1) (1) (1))
07:07	TEttinger	(repeat 3 '(1))
07:08	TEttinger	,(repeat 3 '(1))
07:08	clojurebot	((1) (1) (1))
07:24	seriously_random	TEttinger, I ended up rewriting the whole reduce thing. One problem remains with cons, stuff gets nested in the wrong way: http://pastebin.com/9vz7JXs1
07:26	sm0ke	hey guys anyone work with neko for android?
07:26	sm0ke	how the fk do i getApplicationCOntext?
07:27	TEttinger	neko?
07:27	TEttinger	like the haxe thing?
07:27	sm0ke	umm its helper lib for lein-droid
07:27	sm0ke	no
07:27	TEttinger	no, haven't heard of it
07:27	sm0ke	its wrapper around android api
07:27	sm0ke	hmm ok
07:28	xeqi	AlDev: compojure makes sure the response is a string. You'll need to clojure.edn/read it before you can use it as a map
07:28	xeqi	or json read it
07:30	AlDev	(prn (:response res)) - #<json$wrap_json_response$fn__976 ring.middleware.json$wrap_json_response$fn__976@59b59452>
07:31	TEttinger	seriously_random, I need to get to bed, sorry I can't be of more help
07:32	seriously_random	TEttinger, np
07:32	jowag	seriously_random: if you want to append at the end, use vector instead of cons. If creating vector is too expensive, use concat which returns a lazy sequence
07:33	AlDev	it's not a string in peridot
07:37	xeqi	AlDev: you don't pass request to the (-> app-routes ...) chain
07:37	xeqi	so its just returning the handler generated by the middleware
07:38	seriously_random	jowag, vector gives me nested lists, doesn't it? e.g. [[[...]...]...] Here is almost what I want: http://pastebin.com/rnBKVa5i
07:38	AlDev	hmm, what I need to change?
07:38	AlDev	(def res (-> (session app)
07:38	AlDev	(request "/test"
07:38	AlDev	:request-method :post
07:38	AlDev	:content-type "application/json"
07:38	AlDev	:body (.getBytes "{'user': 'Vasya'}" "UTF-8"))))
07:38	AlDev	app is (defn app [request] (-> app-routes wrap-json-params wrap-json-response))
07:38	xeqi	well, its not good to create a def inside the deftest. so first use a `let` there instead
07:39	AlDev	ooh, thx. just started to learn clojure
07:39	xeqi	but then change the definition of app to (def app (-> app-routes wrap-json-params wrap-json-response))
07:40	xeqi	this will define app to be the resulting handler function, which already takes a request as a param
07:41	jowag	,(map vector [1 2 3] [1 2 3] [1 2 3])
07:41	clojurebot	([1 1 1] [2 2 2] [3 3 3])
07:41	xeqi	also you can remove the (use 'ring.middleware.json) line by changing the ns declaration, and having (:require [ring.middleware.json :refer :all)). Similar to the compojure line
07:41	jowag	seriously_random: you want to be able to do that ^^ ?
07:41	xeqi	AlDev: you probably also want wrap-json-body instead of wrap-json-params since you are sending the json in the :body
07:43	seriously_random	jowag, yes
07:43	jowag	seriously_random: without using 'map' function?
07:43	jowag	seriously_random: or what is your goal :)
07:44	seriously_random	jowag, I did it. "(concat acc (conj '() (apply f (nth-of-all-re x seqs))))" but I am not happy with using conj '(). Getting tired of it
07:45	jowag	seriously_random: Well you have to realize what kind of data structures there are and which function creates which data structure
07:46	AlDev	Thanks, it works!
07:47	jowag	seriously_random: cons creates Cons data structure, into which you can only prepend, not append. conj works with many data structures and it 'adds' new item into the data structure. Somethimes it appends, sometimes it prepends, it depends on the data structure you are conj-oining to.
07:49	jowag	seriously_random: '() creates a PersistentList data structure, which is similar to Cons but not the same. But as with Cons, you can only prepend to the List, with conj function.
07:53	jowag	seriously_random: and concat creates a LazySeq data structure which behaves as if it was a concatenation of two collections. But the flexibility comes with the price, you cannot conj-oin to the LazySeq.
08:21	xificurC	how can I change a function's ToString representation?
08:27	AlDev	xificurC: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5306015/equivilent-of-javas-tostring-for-clojure-functions
08:27	xificurC	AlDev: just found it too, thanks a lot
08:37	xificurC	AlDev: I see I misinterpreted the problem. I'm trying to solve http://www.4clojure.com/problem/113
08:40	xificurC	so I guess its not about the function's tostring representation but about its results string representation
08:53	xificurC	https://www.refheap.com/22385
08:55	Ember-	woah, reify with clojure.lang.IFn ?
08:55	Ember-	why?
08:55	clojurebot	http://clojure.org/rationale
08:55	Ember-	ah, got it
08:55	Ember-	:)
08:55	Ember-	but seriously, what's wrong with plain ol' fn?
08:56	Ember-	and considering your original question, you cannot get a proper seq out of string without somehow parsing it
08:58	Cr8	xificurC: implement Seqable?
08:58	Cr8	has a method seq() which returns a seq
08:59	Cr8	clojure.lang.Seqable (seq [this] res)
08:59	xificurC	Cr8: thanks
09:00	xificurC	Ember-: i dont understand reify or any java interop too much yet so I really dont know what I'm doing
09:00	xificurC	just trying to make things work and then understand why
09:00	Cr8	,(seq (reify clojure.lang.Seqable (seq [this] (seq [1 2 3]))))
09:00	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
09:00	Ember-	no need for java interop there
09:03	xificurC	well I dont understand reify either
09:03	xificurC	this worked https://www.refheap.com/22389
09:04	Cr8	reify is for making a single instance of an object that extends some interfaces or protocols
09:04	Cr8	(reify SomeInterface (method-on-someinterface [this
09:05	Cr8	(reify SomeInterface (method-on-someinterface [this arg1 arg2] body) (another-method-on-someinterface [this] body) OtherInterface (method-on-otherinterface [this] body))
09:05	Cr8	so it's multiple sets of InterfaceName and method body
09:05	xificurC	so here we created a function that extends the Seqable interface?
09:05	Cr8	and you can additionally extend the methods of java.lang.Object anywhere, which is why toString works everywhere
09:05	Cr8	or you can do that explicility
09:06	Cr8	xificurC: not a function, just a 'thing'. a JVM object.
09:06	Cr8	,(str (reify Object (toString [_] "foo")))
09:06	clojurebot	"foo"
09:07	xificurC	Cr8: so the function returns an object which has the Seqable interface extended?
09:08	Cr8	yep
09:08	Cr8	well, reify is probably more reasonably considered a special form than a function
09:08	xificurC	its hard to understand this stuff when I dont understand interfaces or protocols i guess
09:09	Ember-	anyway, saying reify clojure.lang.IFn is just a hard way to say fn
09:09	Ember-	:P
09:09	xificurC	thanks I again understand a bit more than yesterday
09:10	Cr8	right, a function is an object that implements the IFn interface
09:10	Cr8	which is how maps can be functions as well
09:10	Cr8	,({:a 1 :b 2} :a)
09:10	clojurebot	1
09:11	Ember-	,((reify clojure.lang.IFn (toString [_] "foo")))
09:11	clojurebot	#<AbstractMethodError java.lang.AbstractMethodError: sandbox$eval49$reify__50.invoke()Ljava/lang/Object;>
09:11	Cr8	,(map {:a 1 :b 2} [:a :a :b :a :a])
09:11	clojurebot	(1 1 2 1 1)
09:11	Ember-	heh
09:11	Ember-	I fail
09:11	Cr8	Ember-: actually need to define invoke()
09:11	Ember-	yeah, I understood after I wrote that
09:12	Cr8	,((reify clojure.lang.IFn (invoke [_] :foo)))
09:12	clojurebot	:foo
09:12	Ember-	,((fn [] :foo))
09:12	clojurebot	:foo
09:12	Ember-	like I said, a hard way to define fn :)
09:12	Cr8	yep
09:12	xificurC	heh
09:13	xificurC	theres a lot to grasp in clojure
09:14	xificurC	especially if you havent coded much before
09:14	Ember-	if you haven't done functional programming before, then definetly
09:14	xificurC	I coded a bit in a few languages but never really touched any concepts, be it functional or OO
09:24	lsdafjklsd	xificurC: clojure has been one of the most difficult, but eye opening languages I have ever tackled. But my background isn't imperative java, I went from ruby/rails -> javascript
09:27	xificurC	lsdafjklsd: my road is roughly (starting from school) pascal -> c++ -> matlab/mathematica/R -> VBA -> clojure -> python -> Common Lisp -> elisp -> clojure; you can count roughly half a year on each of the languages except VBA which I still (unfortunately) have to use at work
09:30	lsdafjklsd	xificurC: hehe, good stuff!
09:31	xificurC	lsdafjklsd: well the bad thing is I never stay with any language long enough to learn it decently
09:31	xificurC	or the concepts of oo or functional programming
09:34	pyrtsa	Any idea why neither definterface nor defprotocol expose the possibility to extend existing Java interfaces (or Clojure protocols)?
09:42	pyrtsa	Or in other words, why do I need to jump through hoops to define a protocol of my own so that the protocol also extends an existing interface, say, clojure.lang.IFn?
09:43	mdrogalis	pyrtsa: I think you need interface injection or something crazy to do that.
09:44	pyrtsa	Internally, both defprotocol and definterface use gen-interface, which allows to pass a list of extended interfaces (gen-interface ... :extends [interface ...]). But neither of them exposes this option.
09:45	pyrtsa	That given, it doesn't seem like something crazy to me. It sounds like it was just -- intentionally or not -- left out. And I'd like to know why.
09:45	mdrogalis	Can't say I'm sure, pyrtsa.
09:45	mdrogalis	Ask Clojure-dev?
09:45	Ember-	that is indeed a limitation and I see no reason for it
09:47	Ember-	probably just something no one thought back when those were made
09:47	pyrtsa	I guess so
09:48	ToBeReplaced	what is the use case? I think the preferred method would be create a new protocol -- they really shouldn't be much bigger than one function most of the time anyway
09:52	pyrtsa	ToBeReplaced: Obviously, I'm doing Java interop here. Say, I create a function returning a Clojure object that happens to implement multiple Java interfaces in addition to some protocol(s) of my own. If my protocol implemented those interfaces, I could just type hint the return value as my type and the compiler could figure out the rest, I suppose.
09:52	pyrtsa	Another reason: It feels somewhat silly I have to list all the interfaces separately wherever I do a reify.
09:53	pyrtsa	But I might be just overlooking something obvious here.
09:55	Cr8	i think the thing is partially that types can be extended to protocols after those types are defined
09:56	Cr8	so there isn't actually a way to make all the things that satisfy the protocol satisfy that interface
09:56	ToBeReplaced	pyrtsa: what are you type hinting the return value of? i don't see why that wouldn't work, but i haven't mix-and-matched interfaces and protocols before
09:57	pyrtsa	Cr8: I'm missing your point. I'm talking about interfaces here. Obviously, I'm defining an interface that includes the methods of an existing 3rd party interface. So any type implementing mine will (need to) implement them too.
09:57	ToBeReplaced	pyrtsa: i take it back, i see the problem... interesting
09:57	pyrtsa	ToBeReplaced: Internally, protocols are interfaces. That's what I mean.
09:58	gfredericks	protocols are partially interfaces
09:58	pyrtsa	Or that. ^
09:58	gfredericks	which is the difference Cr8 was talking about
09:58	Cr8	pyrtsa: right, but the fact that a type implements a protocol is defined outside of that type
09:58	pyrtsa	Better said this way: protocols have interfaces. :)
09:58	Cr8	so even though it has to implement the methods
09:58	Cr8	you still can't actually use things of that type in places you can use things implementing that interface
09:59	pyrtsa	Cr8: Ah, that's a good point.
09:59	pyrtsa	That said, my question is still open for definterface. :)
10:00	pyrtsa	Cr8's point excludes protocols from this discussion. My mistake. But definterface should still provide the extends feature in my opinion.
10:05	Cr8	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core_deftype.clj#L20-L36 is pretty short, you could lift-and-modify [assuming you're ok being infected with the EPL license]
10:06	pyrtsa	Yeah, that's what I'm planning to do. The source macro is one of my favorite tools. ;)
10:10	tarantulee	,(print clojure.core/clojure-version)
10:10	clojurebot	{:interim true, :major 1, :minor 6, :incremental 0, :qualifier master}
10:11	pyrtsa	Cr8: Heh, the comment above "(defmacro definterface ..." reads "for now, built on gen-interface". Guess it wasn't done with a hammock. :)
10:12	UltimateEyePatch	Does apply ever give you TCO?
10:13	UltimateEyePatch	Or well, tail recursion I should say
10:16	gfredericks	UltimateEyePatch: tail calls are always via recur
10:17	gfredericks	so I don't know for sure what the context of your question is but the answer is almost certainly no
10:41	jonasen	Bronsa: Is there an easy way to know (in tools.analyzer) if a :fn-method is a loop target? Or do I need to search for the loop-id among the children?
10:43	Bronsa	jonasen: the latter; note that you don't have to walk all the children -- only the ones in :return position
10:43	jonasen	Bronsa: ok, I'll try that
10:48	TEttinger	bitemyapp: just had double-brewed aeropress coffee. one scoop to make coffee, mixed coffee with hot water, pressed through another one-scoop press. both were not labor-intensive or upper-body-intensive, and the coffee was strong but not bitter.
11:00	seubert	i paid $5 for a cortado this morning :V
11:02	jballanc	ok, so I obviously have not been paying enough attention to core.logic...what happened to defrel?
11:18	tarantulee	is there an equivalent to cond-> where the expr is threaded through both the test and the form?
11:20	jballanc	tarantulee: no, but you can combine as-> and cond-> to that effect
11:20	jballanc	(not great, I know)
11:20	tarantulee	cool, cheers
11:44	justin_smith	,(apply str (map (comp char dec int) "Hppe!Npsojoh!$dmpkvsf"))
11:44	clojurebot	"Good Morning #clojure"
11:47	mdrogalis	Morning :P
11:47	grzm	I remember hearing somewhere that there were some good examples of CSP patterns in some of the golang documentation. Anyone know off the top of their heads which (part of) the documentation in particular?
11:48	gdev	,(apply str (map (comp char dec int) "qdcqtO"))
11:48	clojurebot	"pcbpsN"
11:49	gdev	doesn't work on my box
11:49	justin_smith	gdev: slightly more readable if inc'd
11:50	stuartsierra	grzm: try https://code.google.com/p/go-wiki/w/list
11:50	justin_smith	gdev: should that O have been a Q
11:50	justin_smith	?
11:50	stuartsierra	There are HTTP examples, timeouts, rate limiting, etc.
11:50	gdev	,(apply str (map (comp char dec inc) "qdcqtO"))
11:50	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Character cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
11:50	grzm	stuartsierra: cheers
11:50	justin_smith	gdev: you need the int cast
11:51	stuartsierra	grzm: There are also some videos of presentations, something like "Intro to Concurrency in Go"
11:51	stuartsierra	Or "Concurrency Patterns in Go"
11:52	grzm	very nice. thanks!
11:52	stuartsierra	You're welcome.
11:52	gdev	justin_smith, I'll just take the bot to private chat until I work it out. My coffee kicked in me guess
11:53	justin_smith	,,(apply str (map (comp char inc int) "qdcqtL"))
11:53	clojurebot	"redruM"
11:56	gdev	justin_smith, doing ROT-1 by hand is hard apparently
11:56	justin_smith	I am sure it just takes practice
11:57	justin_smith	more shift than rot, anyway (rot would be much more verbose)
12:04	justin_smith	gdev: upping the game a bit https://www.refheap.com/22397
12:06	justin_smith	funny, the raw html source actually has the same control characters that were in my emacs buffer, but of course they do not display properly in the browser at all
12:07	Cr8	hm
12:07	Cr8	,(let [charset (map char (range 97 123)) rot (concat (drop 13 charset) (take 13 charset)) rmap (zipmap charset rot) rotate (fn [c] (or (rmap c) c))] (apply str (map rotate "guvf vf ebg13")))
12:07	clojurebot	"this is rot13"
12:07	justin_smith	not bad!
12:08	justin_smith	rotate could be #(rmap % %) without too much loss of legibility
12:08	Cr8	oh yeah
12:09	Cr8	forgot maps take a default
12:11	jowag	palindrome time!
12:12	jowag	,(let [let - tel let - tel] tel)
12:12	clojurebot	#<core$_ clojure.core$_@5d1f>
12:14	justin_smith	,((let [let * tel let * tel] tel))
12:14	clojurebot	1
12:14	justin_smith	now can we do proper math in palindromes?
12:14	ddima	the hell is this? ;)
12:14	justin_smith	ddima: stupid clojure tricks, of course
12:15	ddima	ah, didnt know (*) returns 1
12:15	justin_smith	the multiplicative identity, of course
12:15	ddima	yeah, for some reason would have expected arity-exception
12:16	ddima	but makes more sense of course
12:16	justin_smith	,(< Double/NaN)
12:16	clojurebot	true
12:16	justin_smith	it makes no sense at all, but is very practical
12:16	ddima	justin_smith: well, implementation-wise it makes sense ;)
12:16	justin_smith	exactly
12:18	andyf	justin_smith: Next version of Eastwood Clojure lint tool will warn about single-arg predicates like < > etc.
12:19	justin_smith	cool
12:19	justin_smith	,((every-pred < > =) Double/NaN)
12:19	clojurebot	true
12:19	jowag	,(fn nf [fn nf] fn nf)
12:19	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval49$nf__50 sandbox$eval49$nf__50@110e291>
12:20	Cr8	here's a fun one to run at home
12:20	Cr8	(pprint (filter #(<= 4 (count %)) (vals (group-by frequencies (clojure.string/split-lines (slurp "/usr/share/dict/words"))))))
12:21	justin_smith	jowag: I think (do .... od) could open up the potential of what a clojure palindrome could do a lot
12:27	bitemyapp	http://awelonblue.wordpress.com/2012/10/21/local-state-is-poison/
12:31	bbloom	bitemyapp: yup.
12:31	bbloom	bitemyapp: the idea that "new" was a side effect equal to gensym was MIND BLOWING to me
12:34	bitemyapp	bbloom: also lobste.rs is several orders of magnitude better than HN
12:34	bitemyapp	I've been watching it for awhile, it has grown nicely.
12:34	bitemyapp	it used to be soooo quiet.
12:35	bbloom	got an invite for me?
12:35	bitemyapp	bbloom: sadly no, I would if I had one. I don't have an account yet.
12:35	bitemyapp	bbloom: but aphyr and ztellman have accounts.
12:35	bitemyapp	I haven't bothered to ask anybody for one yet.
12:35	bbloom	i'm in no rush to have a new distraction
12:36	bitemyapp	well, I'm not looking to get distracted, there are things I'd like to post to the site.
12:36	bbloom	but if anybody wants to bestow an invite upon me, i'll receive it willingly
12:36	bitemyapp	keep the content flowing.
12:36	jonasen	I think invite only is probably a good idea in the long run
12:37	bbloom	seems like they do something with the public invite tree
12:37	bbloom	i'd like to see a full trust network graph at some point :-)
12:38	jonasen	bbloom: well, you can't create lots of troll accounts if the tree is public
12:38	bbloom	yeah, for sure, helps with that
12:38	bitemyapp	bbloom: the tags and filtering are really nice too.
12:40	bbloom	i just wish i had some way to keep track of people i trust & people i trust to trust other people :-P
12:40	bitemyapp	bbloom: web-of-trust based filtering could be really interesting.
12:40	bitemyapp	bbloom: "show me content from this person and anybody within 3 removes of them, with nothing that has these tags..."
12:40	bitemyapp	sounds like an excuse for graph nuts to have a ball.
12:41	justin_smith	(inc bitemyapp)
12:41	gdev	bbloom, lol that's what I was trying to get my team to make during clojure cup, but it is a hard problem to solve in 48 hours
12:41	lazybot	⇒ 15
12:42	justin_smith	bitemyapp: that article was great, thanks
12:42	bbloom	at this point, i think we need an RFC for a distributed social graph + arbitrary annotation data protocol
12:42	bitemyapp	justin_smith: np.
12:42	justin_smith	really thought provoking
12:42	bitemyapp	justin_smith: matches a lot of the thoughts I had as I was shifting out of thinking in terms of Common Lisp and Python and into Clojure and Haskell.
12:42	ddima	bitemyapp: thanks for the lobste.rs reminder
12:43	bitemyapp	unnecessary state you can't track or control is a bigger problem than state itself ever was.
12:43	bbloom	bitemyapp: yeah i was just discussing dmbarbour w/ dnolen. i think dmbarbour is like a mad scientist. love the stuff he's working on, but i basically treat him as an upper bound on my crazy thoughts
12:43	bitemyapp	My complaint with globals (dumb defs at the top-level) is that they create unnecessary singletons, not the "global state"
12:43	bitemyapp	if we defaulted to directories/trees so as to avoid the singleton problem I would bitch a lot less.
12:44	hiredman	bbloom: foaf it up
12:44	bitemyapp	but until people wise up to that pattern, I'll keep being cranky about configuration via (def config (atom {}))
12:44	justin_smith	bitemyapp: we need parameterized and versioned namespaces
12:44	bbloom	bitemyapp: i was stoked to see that his byte code & object language were concatenative: http://awelonblue.wordpress.com/2013/12/25/awelon-project-progress-report/
12:44	bitemyapp	justin_smith: well, there's always ML functors and typeclasses, but the best we can do is approximate them.
12:44	bbloom	hiredman: http://www.foaf-project.org/ this?
12:45	hiredman	yes, that is the foaf to which I was refering
12:45	justin_smith	bitemyapp: we can get pretty far with versioned defstructs and protocols I think?
12:46	justin_smith	sorry s/defstruct/defrecord
12:46	justin_smith	I keep doing that
12:47	bitemyapp	justin_smith: you can get pretty far with defrecords but they can still turn into local state run amok sometimes if you don't have some kind of handle to the app.
12:47	bitemyapp	justin_smith: that's why I keep a short-circuit switch available globally to all my app instances and infrastructure.
12:47	bitemyapp	justin_smith: if the global state behaved more like a log it wouldn't be as big of a deal, then you could see app init, state thereof, and shutdown as a history.
12:48	bitemyapp	sritchie needs to stop bothering with twitter and just DM me.
12:49	lsdafjklsd	bitemyapp: what's your twitter handle?
12:49	bitemyapp	lsdafjklsd: you get two guesses.
12:49	lsdafjklsd	bitemyapp: lol, got it
12:50	justin_smith	bitemyapp: there is also (def config (atom [])) (def get-config #(pop @config)) (defn push-config [conf] (swap! config conj conf)) boom, history
12:51	bitemyapp	justin_smith: hum, I don't mean for config necessarily
12:51	bitemyapp	justin_smith: I mean for app instances declaring their existence and providing handles for killing them off or fiddling with their behavior.
12:51	bitemyapp	config should be part of, and attached to, an app instance
12:51	justin_smith	bitemyapp: that was re your above mention of your config atom gripe
12:51	bitemyapp	config shouldn't exist as a singleton or a log apart from the app, tho it could be logged inside of an instance.
12:52	justin_smith	ahh, I think I am starting to see that distinction
12:52	bitemyapp	justin_smith: well yes but the hard part isn't really the push/pop, it's getting people to rethink how their app components work.
12:52	justin_smith	right, it is the design that surrounds the config
12:53	bitemyapp	justin_smith: an app is made up of components, components are made up of namespaces with functions whose behavior can be configured by some kind of state.
12:53	bitemyapp	justin_smith: ideally, instead of firing off threads into the clear blue, you should have some kind of global vision into everybody that's "up" or has been "up" in the past.
12:53	bitemyapp	and that would ideally be more than just a kill-switch.
12:53	Cr8	prismatic is an interesting mix of crap that folks i follow on twitter tweeted about and stuff "nearby", but its not as picky as I'd like
12:54	bitemyapp	justin_smith: imagine procfs but in your application.
12:54	bitemyapp	justin_smith: imagine how cool that would be.
12:54	bitemyapp	procfs is just a "tree" of pids and various levels of state introspectable globally.
12:54	bitemyapp	why can't instances of your app and their state be part of a tree with logged history?
12:55	bitemyapp	could make hot-patching a lot safer, for example.
12:55	Cr8	or: erlang is great until someone uses ets
12:56	ddima	bitemyapp: probably not exactly what you are discussing, but I like how storm uses zookeeper for that
12:56	ddima	though not in the form of a log iirc
12:56	mdrogalis	Dire 0.5.2 is out with run-time removal of handlers. Shout at me angerily if you see problems.
12:57	bitemyapp	mdrogalis: noice. Thanks!
12:57	Cr8	or maybe i'm thinking of the process dictionary
12:57	Cr8	yeah, that thing
12:57	mdrogalis	bitemyapp: Welcome. :)
12:57	bitemyapp	I don't like Erlang much but it has an outsized influence on how I structure my networked backend applications.
12:58	justin_smith	Raynes: refheap does weirdness if I paste a region from emacs that has control characters in it - I think there may be a way to scrub the paste on the elisp side
13:01	Cr8	incidentally I found out about `col` the other week
13:02	justin_smith	Cr8: not coll?
13:02	Cr8	not coll
13:02	Cr8	col the unix utility
13:02	justin_smith	ahh
13:02	justin_smith	I meant coll?, the clojure function with a ? in the name
13:02	justin_smith	but now I get it
13:11	bitemyapp	I need to wake up in the morning more often. This is awesome.
13:16	zanes	I'm getting a UnsupportedClassVersionError when I try to reify an interface from an imported library and I'm a little confused as to how to debug it. I thought Leiningen was handling all the compilation, so how is it possible that I'd have a class compiled for a different version?
13:17	hiredman	zanes: that library you are using most likely has classes compiled for a later version of java than you are using
13:18	zanes	hiredman: So the thing to do is to target a later Java version, myself?
13:18	hiredman	zanes: sure
13:18	zanes	What's the best way to do that with Leiningen? I poked around a bit and it wasn't obvious to me.
13:19	hiredman	zanes: upgrade your installed java
13:19	hiredman	lein version will tell you what version of java lein is using
13:20	seangrove	dnolen: We're working with om and ran into a pretty difficult-to-debug case where we were pulling out an IndexedSeq instead of a vector from a MapCursor. We expected to get back another cursor, but we got the plain cljs data structure instead. Looking at the code, it looks like IndexedSeq failed here https://github.com/swannodette/om/blob/master/src/om/core.cljs#L264
13:21	bitemyapp	yum. runtime type safety.
13:21	dnolen	seangrove: yes fix coming for this now, related to how simple leaf node values like numbers and strings should be handled
13:32	gvickers	I have a java object that I am using in a doto, what would be the most idiomatic way to call an instance method on each member of a vector?
13:33	justin_smith	(doseq [object object-list] (.method object))
13:33	justin_smith	probably
13:34	gvickers	justin_smith: thanks, i'll g ive that a try
13:34	justin_smith	if you want the same method called on every one, and don't need the resulting values that is
13:34	zerokarmaleft	provided the instance method has side-effects
13:35	justin_smith	right :)
13:35	justin_smith	make the doseq a for if you only want the return values, a (doall (for ...)) if you want side effects and return values
13:36	oakwise	dnolen: any hints on how to do an efficient live search of a big list of items with om/build-all? :fn with conditional `(assoc item :hidden true)` seems like it will trigger update for all hidden items rather than just those that changed, right? (sorry for the double ping…not sure if you were online late last night when I asked a similar question)
13:36	seangrove	dnolen: Heh, that and issue #37 were basically the head scratchers for most of yesterday and this morning
13:37	justin_smith	,(for [s ["hello" "world"]] (.length s))
13:37	clojurebot	(5 5)
13:39	dnolen	seangrove: so master exposes some more knobs, you can implement IToCursor to handle types beyonds maps and vectors.
13:40	seangrove	dnolen: Brilliant, thank you
13:43	dnolen	seangrove: but you won't need to handle IndexedSeq yourself.
13:43	dnolen	seangrove: I'm relaxing vector to indexed
13:44	seangrove	dnolen: Sounds good, we experimented with something similar briefly, before just converting our IndexedSeqs into vectors
13:45	dnolen	oakwise: that would be true in React too
13:45	dnolen	oakwise: efficient search of a truly huge list of items needs to use a some type of clever windowing.
13:46	pcn	clever windowing... there should be a library for that
13:46	pcn	even simple windowing...
13:46	dnolen	oakwise: as pcn said, you could probably provide a generic windowing components that can compose the actual view components
13:47	dnolen	oakwise: would be generally useful.
13:48	coventry	In om, why does to-cursor fail over to returning the object as is? It lead to some confusing behavior on an IndexedSeq.
13:49	coventry	Ah, I see dnolen and seangrove discussed this. :-) Still, would it make sense for to-cursor to give a warning in the default case?
13:50	dnolen	seangrove: default to-cursor implementation for all IIndexed instead of IVector
13:51	dnolen	coventry: because you want to be able to get at the values easily
13:51	dnolen	coventry: the problem is trying to build a component from a simple value
13:51	dnolen	coventry: that's a hard error now
13:51	dnolen	coventry: but I've exposed the knobs so you can still do that if you like.
13:52	seangrove	dnolen: Looks great
13:52	bitemyapp	awww yiss got followed by joey hess!
13:53	oakwise	dnolen: Thanks. Interesting. Right now I'm just trying to show/hide ~200 <li>s, each with about 5-10 dom elements per <li>.
13:53	dnolen	oakwise: yeah I don't think that will be all that slow
13:54	coventry	dnolen: Oh, throwing an error earlier in the process sounds good, too. Thanks. Om is a beautiful design, BTW.
13:54	dnolen	oakwise: we're already rendering on requestAnimationFrame
13:54	dnolen	oakwise: if it turns out to be a problem let me know
13:55	dnolen	coventry: it's getting there, it's a tradeoff, but I think you get a lot of value missing in other systems
13:55	oakwise	dnolen: roger thanks
14:01	zanes	hiredman: That did the trick. Thanks!
14:12	Clome_	Does anyone know if you can use Datomic Free in comercial applications?
14:13	mdrogalis	Correct me if I'm wrong anyone, but I believe you can.
14:14	bitemyapp	Clome_: you can use it in the backend of an application
14:14	bitemyapp	Clome_: you cannot redistribute it.
14:14	stuartsierra	Clome_: Datomic Free is both free (as in beer) and redistributable
14:14	bitemyapp	oh I didn't know it was redistributable.
14:15	bitemyapp	stuartsierra: is Pro Starter?
14:15	mdrogalis	Yeah, the Pro Starter can't be redistributed IIRC.
14:15	bitemyapp	Clome_: I would advise against using Datomic Free in a commerical application though, Pro Starter is a better idea from a technical standpoint.
14:15	stuartsierra	No, Pro Starter cannot be redistributed.
14:15	bitemyapp	Clome_: what kind of application are we talking about here?
14:16	stuartsierra	But commercial OEM licenses for Datomic Pro are available on request.
14:16	dnolen	huh wow craziness I guess now that CLJS has ICloneable
14:16	dnolen	you can implement protocols on JS Values
14:17	dnolen	so metadata for String & Number
14:17	Clome_	bitemyapp: none yet. I am just asking if it is possible, otherwise I wont waste time learning it.
14:18	stuartsierra	Clome_: For Datomic licensing questions, you're best off going to the source: #datomic or the Datomic mailing list.
14:18	bitemyapp	Clome_: Datomic Free and Pro Starter are perfectly suitable for learning and experimentation. I have a hard time countenancing a viewpoint that categorizes learning as "wasteful" though.
14:19	bitemyapp	Clome_: I've done a fair bit of work with Datomic and I would have no problem using Pro Starter in a commercial application.
14:19	bitemyapp	arrdem: what's toothpick?
14:20	Clome_	Well there is nothing new to learn. I would just waste time learning the api. I am looking for a lifghtweight clientside database. And datomic is perfect since it is coljure idiomatic and it uses logic programming. If it is not free I will go with JavaDB
14:20	Bronsa	dnolen: you mean (let [m (atom {})] (specify 1 IMeta (meta [_] @m) ..)) or something else?
14:20	arrdem	bitemyapp: http://github.com/arrdem/toothpick
14:20	gfredericks	dnolen: wat on earth
14:20	bitemyapp	arrdem: totes with you on the anamanaguchi.
14:21	arrdem	bitemyapp: iknowrite
14:21	dnolen	Bronsa: yes that could work
14:21	mdrogalis	";; TODO write a badass demo" lolol
14:22	gfredericks	Bronsa: I have no idea what that code does
14:22	arrdem	mdrogalis: hey what do you want from me?
14:22	mdrogalis	arrdem: Hah
14:22	gfredericks	what does specify do?
14:22	dnolen	gfredericks: (let [m {}] (specify 1 IMeta (meta [_] m))) is enough
14:22	gfredericks	dnolen: is that effective for all 1's everywhere?
14:23	dnolen	gfredericks: no, only that particular instance
14:23	arrdem	mdrogalis: I now have a working and tested simulator which toothpick can kick out bytecode for, so now I _can_ write a demo :D
14:23	gfredericks	dnolen: is this some JS feature I don't know about?
14:23	dnolen	gfredericks: well a clone of it anyway
14:23	gfredericks	I don't know of anything in JS that would enable that
14:23	dnolen	new Number(n), new String(s) is all you need for the ICloneable implementations
14:24	gfredericks	new Number(n) gives you a first-class-object-number?
14:24	dnolen	gfredericks: yes
14:25	mdrogalis	arrdem: More entertaining to just leave that TODO in :P
14:25	arrdem	mdrogalis: I figure I'm pushing it with the song quote at the top...
14:25	mdrogalis	arrdem: Haha.
14:26	arrdem	mdrogalis: http://www.prometheus-music.com/audio/eternalflame.mp3
14:26	mdrogalis	arrdem: Who wouldn't love that?
14:26	arrdem	mdrogalis: idk man... it still gets me every time
14:27	bbloom	dnolen: seems like ICloneable is trivially the same for all deftypes....
14:28	dnolen	bbloom: yes, though I left seqs out of it for now and obviously no way for transients
14:28	bbloom	dnolen: i'm not sure how i feel about ICloneable....
14:29	dnolen	bbloom: it's required for specify, no other way for it to work
14:29	bbloom	dnolen: on one hand, it's a clear solution for achieving specify sanely & capitalizing on the platform's features, which is very clojure-y
14:29	mdrogalis	Nada and William's Conj talk just broke my brain.
14:29	bbloom	dnolen: but on the other hand, it's such a weird thing to clone an immutable structure :-P
14:29	bbloom	dnolen: even if it's a shallow clone
14:30	dnolen	bbloom: I don't think it's weird at all.
14:31	gfredericks	bbloom: clojure does it all the time for handling metadata
14:31	gfredericks	(clj-jvm I mean)
14:32	bbloom	yeah, so what's really happening is that there is a hidden field: the type/prototype pointer
14:32	bbloom	in java, that field is immutable. in javascript, it's mutable if you change the prototype on a single object, right?
14:33	bbloom	like a ruby metaclass injection thing
14:33	dnolen	bbloom: yeah that's how JS works.
14:34	zerokarmaleft	mdrogalis: indeed, nada live-coding like a boss
14:34	bbloom	zerokarmaleft: her live coding was pretty damn impressive
14:34	bbloom	dnolen: what things are you using specify for?
14:34	mdrogalis	zerokarmaleft: After a certain point, I had no idea what was going on. :P It's over my head.
14:35	zerokarmaleft	mdrogalis: they lost me after the typechecker...I'll have to revisit it at some point
14:35	mdrogalis	That's pretty far!
14:36	bbloom	don't worry about it if they lost you
14:36	bbloom	they lost lots of smart folks :-P
14:36	dnolen	bbloom: I think it'll be useful when you want some value to satisfy some API w/o changing equality, it's kind of like become in OO systems
14:36	mdrogalis	bbloom: :)
14:36	bbloom	they are so far down their academic rabbit hole, that they set out to give a talk about how to understand academic stuff & then just went nuts
14:36	bbloom	was enjoyable, but they failed at their stated goal
14:36	zerokarmaleft	mdrogalis: I loved the bit (paraphrased): "If you're Daniel you start by reading the axioms, if you're Oleg you start by reading the LaTeX." :D
14:36	bbloom	which is true of so much of academia ;-)
14:37	mdrogalis	zerokarmaleft: I lol'ed at work, everyone gave me a ??? look
14:37	dnolen	bbloom: it also avoids the need for wrappers for that use case which is big benefit in my opinion.
14:37	bbloom	dnolen: yeah, i know when it's useful & what it does & how it works. i'm asking what in particular you/others are planning to use it for
14:37	zerokarmaleft	mdrogalis: btw, I'm loving dire...thanks for that
14:37	dnolen	bbloom: as the universe of protocols expands, I'm sure people come up with lots of rocking ideas
14:37	bbloom	dnolen: i'm not anti-wrapper. in fact, i quite like wrappers in theory, if only we had a delegation system
14:38	dnolen	bbloom: I'm not anti-wrapper either - they're just a bear in Clojure(Script)
14:38	bbloom	dnolen: yes.
14:38	bbloom	dnolen: factor's generic words, protocols, & delegation systems are worth studying
14:39	mdrogalis	zerokarmaleft: Anytime :) Just released 0.5.2
14:39	bbloom	dnolen: http://docs.factorcode.org/content/article-generic.html + http://docs.factorcode.org/content/article-delegate.html
14:48	bitemyapp	hmmm, yes.
14:48	bitemyapp	time to write my own edn parser.
14:48	bitemyapp	I've had enough.
14:50	dnolen	yep specify works a charm on JS numbers - https://gist.github.com/swannodette/8225403
14:51	stuartsierra	dnolen: How desirable is it to have metadata on host types in ClojureScript when Clojure does not / cannot support the same?
14:53	dnolen	stuartsierra: it was something Rich proposed and put on the todo list, probably because it solves a wart in Clojure.
14:53	gfredericks	there are other things CLJS can do that jvm-clj cannot, e.g. because core protocols are proper protocols
14:53	stuartsierra	dnolen: OK. Interesting.
14:53	gfredericks	extend IFn to regexes or numbers
14:54	dnolen	stuartsierra: we're not going into features here not proposed by the BDFL and are unlikely ever to :)
14:54	justin_smith	would a number as an IFn be (partial * this) or something?
14:55	gfredericks	justin_smith: whatever you want
14:55	stuartsierra	dnolen: OK. It was just a passing thought. I wouldn't want to see CLJS diverge too far from JVM Clojure.
14:55	gfredericks	justin_smith: maybe (partial repeat this)
14:58	mikerod	there has to be a way to get similar metadata behavior in JVM clj
15:00	dnolen	mikerod: I think the issue is not whether it can be done but whether it can be done efficiently. obviously JS engine have been optimizing this type of thing for well over a decade now. Not true for JVM.
15:00	dnolen	mikerod: perhaps invokeDynamic will change that story eventually
15:02	mikerod	dnolen: that makes sense
15:02	bbloom	dnolen: i think that specify could also be implemented in terms of wrappers/delegation & JVMs should be able to optimize that quite well. decorator objects are quite common in java apps
15:03	bbloom	dnolen: clj already relies on double virtual-call elimination for ever top-level var used as a function :-)
15:03	khaled	hi, all, is using gradle and pallet make sense?
15:04	dnolen	bbloom: yeah, I suspect that rhickey is not really a fan of delegation, probably because people tend to abuse it.
15:04	dnolen	bbloom: which is why there's so little support for it
15:05	bbloom	dnolen: i'd be quite curious to hear his thoughts on it. wouldn't want to make guesses/assumptions about his perspective
15:06	dnolen	bbloom: yeah just guessing over here. I think recall Stuart Halloway saying to avoid delegation / wrappers at some point.
15:07	dnolen	bbloom: but to be honest I don't mind, I'm glad I don't have to read code w/ wrappers and delegation that often in Clojure
15:07	dnolen	it's a convenience to often misused
15:13	arrdem	clojurebot: ping
15:13	clojurebot	PONG!
15:20	koalallama	clojurebot: source
15:20	clojurebot	source is http://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/tree/master
15:22	gvickers`	I asked this before but am still having trouble conceptually, I have a vector of objects, and in a "doto" I want to call the same instance method on each of the objects in the vector. Any idea how to do that? I tried using a map but it fails silently, but adding each element "first, last" works as expected.
15:23	arrdem	gvickers`: refheap paste? map should do what you want so long as you don't mind lazyness...
15:25	koalallama	gvickers`: doseq?
15:28	gvickers`	https://www.refheap.com/22403
15:28	koalallama	gvickers`: whatever you're working on, I want a piece of :)
15:28	gvickers`	Maybe there's something im missing, I understand clojure collections can mess with the type of java objects they contain, but i dont know if thats my problem
15:29	trptcolin	gvickers`: map is lazy. you want doseq, like koalallama says
15:29	gvickers`	snmp4j lib wrapper, thanks!
15:29	justin_smith	gvickers`: map does not fail silently, it is just lazy
15:29	gvickers`	thanks all, i'll give it a try
15:29	justin_smith	gvickers`: remember I recommended doseq, or (doall (for ...))
15:30	koalallama	gvickers`: cool, if open source, send me link. I use a lot of snmp4j, but mostly in Java so far
15:30	arrdem	gvickers`: yeah you definitely want doseq here.
15:30	gvickers`	yea I thought I had done a bad job asking the question, but now I understand what you mean
15:34	gvickers`	I will be reducing the library down a lot, not a huge fan of the way SNMP4J does things. Right now v1 and v2c traps can be captured pretty easily, you just supply a map with a callback function, usually I just give it a function that dumps the traps onto a channel, then you can easily use core.async for processing the stream of data. I am very new to clojure, and this library is only a couple days old.
15:34	gvickers`	https://github.com/gardnervickers/claptrap
15:37	gvickers`	justin_smith: thanks that worked beautifully! clojure's lazyness gets me once again...
15:40	koalallama	great, good luck
15:53	hiredman	win 19
16:02	joegallo	win 20
16:04	dnolen	k first awesome thing about specify, tree stuff with host values at the leaves where you want them to satisfy a protocol
16:10	jballanc	dnolen: hey, am I right in surmizing that pldb has completely supplanted defrel in core.logic?
16:11	dnolen	jballanc: that is correct
16:11	jballanc	cool
16:11	jballanc	some of the docs/wiki pages are still referencing defrel...had me confused a bit
16:12	dnolen	jballanc: yes should be cleaned up, would love for somebody to help if they feel inclined
16:12	jballanc	heh...well, let's see what my boss thinks of this idea I have for core.logic...might be able to swing a few pull requests your way
16:13	jballanc	I'm toying with the notion of using titan for storing/retrieving relations for use with core.logic
16:13	jballanc	so, along the way I'm looking at that code anyway
16:13	dnolen	jballanc: sounds cool
16:14	jballanc	yeah, specifically titan's integration with elastic search for full-text indexing means the possibility of full-text goals
16:14	jballanc	could be...interesting...
16:55	oakwise	dnolen: looks like that ~200 item list is taking ~500ms to update on every state change even with should-update on the item component always returning false, and it seems to grow/shrink with the number of pseudo-dom components in the item's render func (even though the render func isn't getting called)
16:58	dnolen	oakwise: sounds unlikely if the items are not re-rendering.
17:02	dnolen	specify to make the bits of a JS 32bit integer accessible / seqable sounds funs.
17:05	trptcolin	what is a JS integer? ;) </trolololo>
17:06	bitemyapp	trptcolin: 1.2 \| 0;
17:11	gfredericks	a JS integer is a special integer with gradual overflow
17:11	gfredericks	they can get quite big but they just start acting a little funny at some point
17:13	arrdem	bitemyapp: damnit man now I want to know how the JS sign bit behaves...
17:13	justin_smith	you can get integers via various html5 extensions like three.js
17:13	justin_smith	like actual hardware integers that is
17:14	bitemyapp	twitter continues to be the best way to get software support.
17:14	bitemyapp	(inc twitter_support)
17:14	lazybot	⇒ 1
17:14	gfredericks	a hardware integer is a line of laptops each of which is either open (1) or closed(0)
17:14	bitemyapp	arrdem: read the spec and be horrified.
17:14	l1x	is there a way to fetch values belong to a string key from a hashmap the same way you can do it with a symbol? (-> {:test 1} :test) vs. (-> {"test" 1} ??)
17:14	justin_smith	gfredericks: lol
17:14	arrdem	js> -1 \| 1<<31 => -1
17:14	arrdem
17:14	arrdem	WAT
17:14	arrdem	WAI
17:15	justin_smith	l1x: get-in
17:15	justin_smith	,(get-in {"test" 1} ["test"])
17:15	clojurebot	1
17:15	justin_smith	it does nesting like you can do with ->
17:15	justin_smith	,(get-in {"test" {"one" 2}} ["test" "one"])
17:15	clojurebot	2
17:16	TimMc	arrdem: Try `-1 \| "hello"`
17:17	TimMc	(This is not the operator you are looking for.)
17:17	arrdem	TimMc: I had a lurking suspicion that was the case...
17:18	arrdem	TimMc: ... no that's what I wanted...
17:18	arrdem	TimMc: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Operators/Bitwise_Operators
17:19	TimMc	Ugh, right, I'm thinking of \|\|
17:19	TimMc	"foo" \| "bar" ;= 0
17:19	TimMc	Wat 2: Return of the Wat
17:20	arrdem	(dec javascript)
17:20	lazybot	⇒ -2
17:21	arrdem	I see I'm not the first person with this idea
17:21	justin_smith	wat boogaloo strikes back, the wat-ening
17:21	bitemyapp	(dec javascript)
17:21	lazybot	⇒ -3
17:22	TimMc	Hmm, isn't two's complement for -1 all ones?
17:22	TimMc	That would always OR to -1.
17:22	TimMc	Final Wat XI
17:23	oakwise	dnolen: yeah seems weird… I'll try and put together a minimal example later today. But unless I'm doing something crazy, render on the item component (correctly) doesn't get called, but the more components within it still increase the whole app update time. Here's a quick flame graph: http://i.imgur.com/sK4X0Wh.png
17:23	arrdem	TimMc: yes. ~0 == -1
17:23	arrdem	,(bit-xor (bit-not 0) -1)
17:23	clojurebot	0
17:23	arrdem	:D
17:24	arrdem	,(bit-xor (bit-not 0) -2)
17:24	clojurebot	1
17:24	arrdem	:P
17:24	arrdem	no need to multiply with -1, just xor with ~0 :D
17:24	arrdem	and add 1...
17:26	gfredericks	toos compliment
17:27	TimMc	Wat resolved.
17:27	rads	dnolen: I was taking a look at the counters example that uses om/join. the join thing seems like a bad idea to me because it means the component has to know about the structure of the entire app state
17:28	rads	dnolen: I made a small fork to show an alternative example where you just add the extra cursor to an existing cursor: https://github.com/rads/om/compare/counters
17:28	justin_smith	,(apply str (first (last (take 32 (iterate (fn [[bits left]] [(conj bits (bit-and left 1)) (bit-shift-right left 1)]) [() -1])))))
17:28	clojurebot	"1111111111111111111111111111111"
17:28	justin_smith	in retrospect "remaining" is a better name than left, in context
17:30	rads	dnolen: the (allow-reads (not= ...)) thing might not be the best implementation, but the advantage of doing it this way is that it's straightforward to pass in the parts of the app state that you need, and each component only has to know about a flat map of cursors that get passed in
17:30	arrdem	justin_smith: what is this sorcery
17:31	justin_smith	arrdem: showing the bits in a long, of course
17:31	justin_smith	well, 32 of them
17:31	arrdem	justin_smith: &&(clojure.pprint/cl-format nil "~b" 5)
17:31	arrdem	~botsmack
17:31	clojurebot	Owww!
17:32	hyPiRion	##'&
17:32	lazybot	⇒ &
17:32	arrdem	,&&(clojure.pprint/cl-format nil "~b" 5)
17:32	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: && in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
17:32	arrdem	gerd dermert
17:32	arrdem	,(clojure.pprint/cl-format nil "~b" 5)
17:32	clojurebot	#<ClassNotFoundException java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.pprint>
17:32	hyPiRion	heh
17:32	hyPiRion	,(require 'clojure.pprint)
17:32	clojurebot	nil
17:32	hyPiRion	try now
17:33	arrdem	,(clojure.pprint/cl-format nil "~b" 5)
17:33	clojurebot	"101"
17:33	arrdem	(inc hyPiRion)
17:33	lazybot	⇒ 27
17:33	TimMc	,(clojure.pprint/cl-format nil "~b" -1)
17:33	clojurebot	"-1"
17:33	marissagrove	,(+ 6 7)
17:33	clojurebot	13
17:33	arrdem	TimMc: yeah it does that. kinda silly.
17:34	hyPiRion	TimMc: it's a nice little cheating guy
17:34	arrdem	TimMc: the issue is that the JVM doesn't really have a sign bit...
17:34	TimMc	arrdem: Nah, that behavior of cl-format seems fine.
17:34	hyPiRion	That's more about the cl format spec
17:34	hyPiRion	Hei igjen,
17:34	arrdem	,(bit-and (int -1) (int (bit-shift-left 1 31)))
17:34	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Value out of range for int: 2147483648>
17:34	arrdem	hyPiRion: explain that then.
17:34	justin_smith	so I am vindicated!
17:35	hyPiRion	Oh dang, wrong window
17:35	hyPiRion	arrdem: I meant "~b" -> -1 is according to the cl format spec
17:35	arrdem	hyPiRion: ah. ok. I didn't see that when I read the hyperspec last night then.
17:35	justin_smith	I mean there is probably an easier version than what I did, but at least mine works :P
17:37	seangrove	bitemyapp: What problems have you run into re: datomic from python?
17:37	seangrove	Specifically, what could be so bad you'd write your own edn parser? :P
17:37	bitemyapp	seangrove: I am somewhere in atomic rage territory on this subject.
17:37	bitemyapp	seangrove: let me find the gif that perfectly illustrates my current status.
17:39	bitemyapp	seangrove: http://i.imgur.com/tKu6wrM.gif
17:39	bitemyapp	boom. Perfect.
17:39	octagon	is it possible to write a function #'eval-in-ns such that (eval-in-ns 'foo '(prn ns)) => #<Namespace foo>? Assume the 'foo namespace exists and has clojure.core refer'd in.
17:39	seangrove	I find myself reciting that exact mantra from time to time
17:39	bitemyapp	octagon: yes.
17:39	seangrove	bitemyapp: Isn't there a clojure meetup tonight?
17:40	bitemyapp	seangrove: news to me. Maybe I can cry salty tears into a beer while listening to people talk about writing Clojure whilst I'm writing a parser in Python of all things.
17:40	hiredman	octagon: it is, but I find the desire for such a thing tends to result from misunderstanding the nature of clojure's namespaces
17:40	bitemyapp	seangrove: so there is!
17:40	octagon	bitemyapp: i am having a hard time understanding how eval and namespaces interact. i saw the #'with-ns macro in contrib, but it resolves things at compile time
17:40	bitemyapp	octagon: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Clojure-Namespaces-Vars-Symbols
17:40	bitemyapp	~contrib
17:41	clojurebot	Monolithic clojure.contrib has been split up in favor of smaller, actually-maintained libs. Transition notes here: http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
17:41	octagon	hiredman: i want to be able to eval expressions entered by the user in a separate namespace at runtime
17:41	bitemyapp	octagon: Contrib is dead yo. ^^
17:41	octagon	bitemyapp: i know :/ i just found the macro there and was trying to understand it
17:41	hiredman	octagon: `(do (in-ns ...) user-expression)
17:41	bitemyapp	octagon: watch the presentation I linked.
17:41	bitemyapp	Andera's explanation is among the best I've ever seen.
17:41	rads	dnolen: I just realized you can also just use (to-cursor) to create a new cursor from a map of existing cursors. with the change to componentShouldUpdate I linked to in my fork, these on-the-fly cursors will not update unless their child cursors change, which seems like a nice advantage over the existing implementation
17:41	octagon	bitemyapp: ok thank yo
17:42	octagon	*you
17:42	bitemyapp	seangrove: mmmm pushdown automata
17:42	bitemyapp	this makes me feel like me, but 10 years ago.
17:43	bitemyapp	crunchy and primitive. like a hippie drinking raw milk. I can feel the botulism now.
17:43	hiredman	the easiest thing to do is just ignore it and call eval, let your users writing clojure use ns or in-ns to pick what namespace they want
17:44	bitemyapp	octagon: ^^ take the easy way out :P
17:44	bitemyapp	reifying namespaces to separate data probably isn't worth it unless you're doing something incredibly sophisticated and bad.
17:44	octagon	bitemyapp: i will write a file and then #'load-file if i need to :)
17:45	bitemyapp	octagon: do whatever your nihilistic heart desires my friend.
17:45	octagon	bitemyapp: i kid, i kid
17:45	octagon	but seriously i might
17:45	bitemyapp	arrdem: it's a dynamically typed Lisp. Being morally deficient comes with the territory, all bets are off here.
17:46	octagon	my application uses clojure as a scripting language basically, which means i need to eval the user code separately to avoid confusion with things that exist in the evaluator namespace
17:46	arrdem	$google clojure sandbox
17:46	lazybot	[How can I sandbox Clojure? - Stack Overflow] http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5258038/how-can-i-sandbox-clojure
17:46	bitemyapp	$google clojail
17:46	lazybot	[flatland/clojail · GitHub] https://github.com/flatland/clojail
17:47	arrdem	yeah. that one.
17:47	bitemyapp	$google Linux jail
17:47	lazybot	[chroot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroot
17:47	bitemyapp	$google application isolation
17:47	lazybot	[Application Isolation: Basics and Directions \| Symantec Connect ...] http://www.symantec.com/connect/articles/application-isolation-basics-and-directions
17:47	bitemyapp	...wut
17:47	bitemyapp	fucking corporate SEO.
17:47	hiredman	octagon: but namespaces doesn't work like that
17:47	arrdem	bitemyapp: one of my Plan 9 friends has this awesome proposal where mount becomes a devfile not a program
17:47	bitemyapp	arrdem: <3
17:48	arrdem	bitemyapp: if you chroot /dev/mount out, you've totally sandboxed yourself, because you can't mess with the FS anymore!
17:48	hiredman	if you define a function F in the namespace N, the value of ns when F is called may or may not be N
17:48	octagon	hiredman: it's especially confusing for me because some things work in the repl but not in the application
17:48	hiredman	out side of the repl the value of ns is alsomost always clojure.core
17:48	hiredman	namespaces are a compilation environment
17:49	hiredman	almost
17:50	octagon	hiredman: but they are also dynamic, in that you can add names to them at runtime, right?
17:50	justin_smith	octagon: I think it is likely more that you don't understand what the repl or application is doing. Inside a namespace or in a repl, the clojure compiler behaves the same way with very few exceptions.
17:51	octagon	i guess my confusion may be conflating adding names to namespaces and evaluation of forms
17:51	bitemyapp	octagon: perhaps it would help if you watched Andera's presentation?
17:51	octagon	bitemyapp: yes, i will do that. i'm tethering on my phone at the moment, but thanks i will
17:52	hiredman	octagon: sure but adding names, namespaces are basically a map that is consulted to look up vars during compilation
17:52	hiredman	you can looking values from the them in a more dynamic way, but that is how clojure uses them
17:52	hiredman	they are a compilation environment
17:53	hiredman	not a runtime environment (although they do exist at runtime and can be fiddled with because this is lisp and the difference between runtime and compilation time can be rather small in the repl)
17:55	octagon	hiredman: perhaps i could do what the repl is doing in my application
17:56	TimMc	arrdem: In JS: ~~1<<35 == 8
17:56	hiredman	the repl doesn't do much in fact, I think it initial sets the namespace to user, and after that it is hands off, and it is user code that changes the value of ns afterwards via in-ns or ns
17:56	justin_smith	octagon: if you are tempted to define something in one ns from another, that makes me think you have a poorly resolved dependency loop
17:57	llasram	justin_smith: I think they're just writing a REPL/equivalent
17:58	octagon	thanks everyone, bitemyapp, hiredman i think i know how to proceed now
17:59	bitemyapp	^^ confidence I wish I had.
18:08	andyf_	Bronsa: ping
18:08	Bronsa	andyf_: pong
18:08	bitemyapp	andyf_: dong
18:09	celwell	what's wrong? (fn [n] ((let [arr nil])
18:09	celwell	(dotimes [i n]
18:09	celwell	(conj arr i))
18:09	celwell	arr))
18:10	bars0	Hi all. I am on linux. Where leiningen puts downloaded jars?
18:10	amalloy	celwell: everything there is wrong. values are not mutable, and you have too many open-parens before that let
18:10	andyf_	Bronsa: Your recent tools.analyzer.jvm "better error messages" changes removed the :ast key from the ex-data of exceptions thrown due to bad tags. Was that data considered unreliable, or difficult to provide longer-term? It might be useful in error messages in Eastwood.
18:10	bitemyapp	celwell: that's not how Clojure works.
18:10	amalloy	that's just (range n)
18:10	hyPiRion	bars0: in the ~/.m2/ directory
18:11	bitemyapp	celwell: conj'ing a vector in Clojure returns a new vector with the value provided added to the vector, it does not mutate the original vector.
18:11	bars0	hyPiRion: thanks
18:11	bitemyapp	,(let [x [:a] y (conj x :b)] (println x y))
18:11	clojurebot	[:a] [:a :b]\n
18:11	bitemyapp	celwell: ^^
18:11	bitemyapp	celwell: did x change?
18:11	bitemyapp	celwell: what is y?
18:12	celwell	I'm very new to clojure. Trying to do this: "Create an array of N integers, where N is specified as input. "
18:13	justin_smith	,(repeat 4 42)
18:13	clojurebot	(42 42 42 42)
18:14	justin_smith	celwell: one of the most important things about clojure is the basic types are immutible, conj does not change the input, it returns a copy that is added to
18:14	CaptainLex	celwell: It would be harder to specify N than simply enter all N integers. Are they random integers or user-supplied?
18:14	celwell	N is just a numebr that says the length of the created array
18:15	celwell	the contents of each element is ignored
18:15	CaptainLex	celwell: In that case, justin_smith's example is definitely adequate
18:15	Bronsa	andyf_: mostly because the ast at that point is not guaranteed to be valid so I prefered to remove it, but if it's actually needed I'm sorry, I can bring it back.
18:15	CaptainLex	celwell: What are you getting this problem from?
18:16	andyf_	Bronsa: I wouldn't go so far as to say "needed", but it is convenient, and provides some context information that isn't available in the :form key
18:16	andyf_	Bronsa: Let me experiment with a one-liner change to see if it brings back everything desired by Eastwood, and I can submit a patch if it works
18:16	celwell	hackerrank.com
18:16	justin_smith	celwell: taking a closer look, it seems you were trying to write range
18:16	octagon	,(loop [x 0, xs []] (if (< x 10) (recur (inc x) (conj xs x)) xs))
18:16	clojurebot	[0 1 2 3 4 ...]
18:16	justin_smith	,(range 4)
18:16	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3)
18:17	octagon	^^ looping to construct an array
18:17	Bronsa	andyf_: fair enough -- in case, don't attach the ast directly but `(prewalk ast cleanup)` so we don't end up printing :namespaces
18:18	andyf_	Bronsa: Thanks for the tip. I was already working around their huge size by explicitly avoiding printing them out, but better to be surgical about it.
18:19	justin_smith	,(first (last (take 5 (iterate (fn [[arr n]] [(conj arr n) (inc n)]) [[] 0])))); also doable as iterate
18:19	clojurebot	[0 1 2 3]
18:19	celwell	legitimate question: why is it so complicated to something that should seem to be simple?
18:20	bitemyapp	celwell: you don't know what you're doing.
18:20	justin_smith	,(range 5) ; celwell: it is simple
18:20	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4)
18:20	octagon	celwell: it's sort of a loaded question, because you'd never do that. you'd do (range n)
18:21	octagon	celwell: but there are many ways to construct sequences of things, and they're very powerful.
18:22	celwell	ok, what's the threshold I should hold out for for seeing the benefits of clojure? (coming from php (sorry) and js/coffee)
18:22	celwell	so far, everything seems overly confusing to me...
18:22	octagon	,(take 5 (map #(* 4 %) (range)))
18:22	clojurebot	(0 4 8 12 16)
18:22	celwell	maybe I should stick with it for a week, or what?
18:22	CaptainLex	celwell: Coming from PHP to clojure is definitely going to be jerring
18:23	bitemyapp	celwell: if your ROI time-horizon is limited to a week, you should quit programming.
18:23	CaptainLex	celwell: It will seem pretty confusing at first
18:23	octagon	celwell: ^^ that maybe illustrates better how clojure can help you
18:23	justin_smith	celwell: it will take much longer than that to get fp, but it is worth it
18:23	CaptainLex	but hopefully, when you've stuck with it a bit, PHP will seem confusing when you go back ;)
18:23	bitemyapp	celwell: learning a functional language will pay off huge over the long run but you're not going to unlearn the garbage PHP and JS taught you in a single week.
18:25	celwell	ok, these are things I'm hearing (especially with the trend of clojure this year). but, concretely, what is the single most important benefit in functional programming (over PHP e.g.)?
18:25	bitemyapp	celwell: there is no single most important benefit.
18:25	bitemyapp	celwell: taken as a whole, functional programming means working faster, thinking faster, and fewer bugs.
18:25	hyPiRion	celwell: You'll be a better programmer :)
18:25	CaptainLex	celwell: The single most important benefit is in how you think about the software you write
18:26	bitemyapp	celwell: the foundation of it is in referential transparency, functions that are like mathematical functions and return consistent results for the same arguments.
18:26	andyf_	celwell: I'd give it at least a week of hobby time, if you can spare it. I'd also recommend getting a book on Clojure, if the cost isn't prohibitive for you, e.g. the O'Reilly book on Clojure. Functional style programming can feel somewhat foreign to you at first (and sometimes even after a while, but less so)
18:26	bitemyapp	celwell: FP makes you a better programmer but until you are that better programmer you're not going to understand waht you're missing.
18:26	seangrove	celwell: The second most important concrete benefit is that bitemyapp will love you and give you lots of hugs.
18:26	bitemyapp	celwell: http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html
18:26	bitemyapp	celwell: seangrove is only half right. Instead of hugs, you Haskell lessons and free beer.
18:27	bitemyapp	celwell: by "hugs" he meant the Haskell repl.
18:27	bitemyapp	you get*
18:27	octagon	celwell: i also used to do PHP. i find that it is extremely difficult for even a real pro PHP programmer to write robust large programs. but clojure is very well designed so you don't have to be such a pro to create programs that are at least maintainable
18:27	seangrove	Haha, well played
18:28	celwell	i'll stick with it, thanks
18:29	octagon	celwell: my company moved from php/js to clojure/clojurescript
18:30	celwell	interesting, was it hard to find devs?
18:30	octagon	celwell: we have like 120K lines of PHP, so it's a difficult process to disentangle ourselves
18:30	octagon	but everyone can learn it, all of the php guys are learning it and they love it
18:31	bitemyapp	Python people at my company have had zero trouble learning Clojure, despite getting their lessons from a total prick.
18:31	octagon	and the clojure code is orders of magnitude more maintainable and understandable
18:32	justin_smith	oh man my iterate example above was so silly
18:32	justin_smith	,(take 5 (iterate inc 0))
18:32	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4)
18:32	justin_smith	that is how to do it with iterate
18:32	bitemyapp	I was going to say.
18:32	justin_smith	you should have!
18:32	bitemyapp	I didn't know if you were being weird on purpose or not.
18:32	bitemyapp	it's hard to tell sometimes.
18:32	justin_smith	fair enough :P
18:32	CaptainLex	Does anyone have any experience with shoreleave?
18:32	celwell	is there a recommended subset of the core I should memorize to get started (i find myself not knowing enough functions to get anywhere in my learning)
18:33	octagon	celwell: with PHP there is a lot of knowledge you need to have just to not shoot yourself in the foot when you are building a complex application, so the programmer needs years of experience and skill
18:33	bitemyapp	celwell: don't memorize...learn.
18:33	bitemyapp	it's not a quiz. just read and code.
18:33	octagon	celwell: clojure does not have the quirks and pitfalls of PHP, which is a huge productivity boost right off the bat
18:33	CaptainLex	celwell: A lot of the core fniness of clojure is abstracted away when you right practical applications
18:34	CaptainLex	celwell: So instead of taking a standardized tutorial, maybe work on some small app in the a domain you're used to
18:34	celwell	i agree, but still... maybe I should I look some good simple code examples
18:34	CaptainLex	use Google to find libs to help
18:34	celwell	any suggestions on github
18:34	CaptainLex	s/right/write
18:34	CaptainLex	Someone has a clojure koans repo, right?
18:34	bitemyapp	they exist.
18:34	justin_smith	yeah, clojure koans isn't bad for starters
18:35	CaptainLex	This is a popular place to start: https://github.com/functional-koans/clojure-koans
18:35	andyf_	celwell: Some people have found the cheatsheet helpful: http://jafingerhut.github.io/cheatsheet-clj-1.3/cheatsheet-tiptip-cdocs-summary.html
18:35	octagon	also maybe SICP? that really helped me when i first discovered lisp
18:35	celwell	i've seen koans, any real world example though?
18:35	celwell	that you would suggest
18:35	CaptainLex	Hmmm
18:35	CaptainLex	How real world? Do you mean
18:35	CaptainLex	interesting math, or a web server?
18:35	celwell	not math
18:36	celwell	a simple game or web app
18:36	bitemyapp	celwell: have you done the koans?
18:36	CaptainLex	So probably not a 99 problems repo, then. Hmmm
18:36	bitemyapp	looking at Ring isn't going to do a lot for you.
18:36	celwell	no : koans
18:36	bitemyapp	celwell: do the koans.
18:36	bitemyapp	celwell: don't be lazy.
18:36	bitemyapp	you can be lazy after you know what you're doing.
18:36	celwell	ill try it
18:37	CaptainLex	celwell: Honestly, my recommendation for getting into functional programming is to start with the Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs
18:37	bitemyapp	celwell: don't try, just do the koans.
18:37	bitemyapp	CaptainLex: no. stop.
18:37	bitemyapp	celwell: don't do SICP. Just do the Clojure Koans.
18:37	CaptainLex	:'(
18:37	bitemyapp	CaptainLex: I'm tapping you out. Take a break.
18:37	bitemyapp	celwell: if you get stuck, take a break, then get back to it.
18:37	celwell	I started watch mit video lectues of sicp from the 80's
18:37	bitemyapp	celwell: do not stop until you complete the Clojure Koans.
18:37	CaptainLex	bitemyapp: I wouldn't recommend the whole thing, just the first chapter. Nonetheless, I'll poke around over here
18:38	bitemyapp	celwell: I watched Sesame Street in the 80s.
18:38	Cr8	I was dead in the 80s
18:38	octagon	SICP was really fun for me when i was starting
18:38	bitemyapp	interesting definition of dead.
18:38	Cr8	well
18:38	Cr8	not alive
18:38	bitemyapp	octagon: Clojure Koans were really fun for me when I was starting.
18:38	rads	celwell: I think the best way to learn anything is to figure out something you think would be fun to make, and start making it one step at a time
18:39	bitemyapp	celwell: do that, but do the koans first.
18:39	celwell	rads: i agree, but i find myself too stuck to do that
18:39	bitemyapp	celwell: that's because you don't know what you were doing. You know what helps with that?
18:39	bitemyapp	celwell: I give you two guesses.
18:39	octagon	bitemyapp: different strokes, right?
18:39	bitemyapp	octagon: different strokes is too often used as a cover for laziness.
18:39	octagon	bitemyapp: you got me there. i'm the laziest dude ever
18:40	celwell	bitemyapp: koans?
18:40	bitemyapp	octagon: I've taught too many people programming in many languages to really believe it makes a damn difference. You have to do some kind of exercises.
18:40	bitemyapp	celwell: correctamunde. Hop to it.
18:40	bitemyapp	octagon: they can be bad koans, they can be good koans, but you have to interactively hammer in how things work or it'll never stick.
18:40	bitemyapp	octagon: blindly groping around a 'practical' project before you know what's going on takes longer than just doing koans.
18:41	bitemyapp	it's also less profound and more subject to cargo culting.
18:41	octagon	bitemyapp: i didn't get into clojure until like a year after reading and rereading SICP. i was just enjoying thinking about it, cause the idea of lisp was new to me
18:41	octagon	i didn't even do much scheming really, just thinking about it
18:42	octagon	my day job was not computing at the time
18:42	celwell	one more question: are there any habits I should avoid as I start to develop my clojure 'technique'?
18:42	bitemyapp	celwell: don't cargo cult.
18:42	bitemyapp	celwell: if you think X is true, don't just minimally prove X is true - try to break the assumption with code that you think would demonstrate the opposite.
18:42	bitemyapp	celwell: use the REPL, interactively poke around
18:43	bitemyapp	celwell: the biggest thing that will prevent you from learning Clojure is being in IRC asking questions instead of doing koans.
18:43	bitemyapp	celwell: that leads to 90%++ of failures to actually learn Clojure.
18:43	CaptainLex	Hahahaha
18:43	Cr8	get a REPL
18:43	Cr8	play
18:43	bitemyapp	Cr8: the koans will take care of that.
18:43	bitemyapp	or should, anyway.
18:43	bitemyapp	I would hope. :\|
18:44	celwell	thanks for the advice, ciao
18:44	justin_smith	well the koan interface isn't directly a repl though, it is a good reminder to also play in the repl as you go
18:45	CaptainLex	Good luck celwell!
18:45	akhudek	hmm, I guess core.matrix has no support for float matrices
18:45	bitemyapp	eggscellent. The empire spreads!
18:46	hiredman	akhudek: what do you mean by that?
18:46	bitemyapp	akhudek: does it matter if you have a 64-bit machine?
18:46	bitemyapp	I think that's why nobody bothers.
18:46	akhudek	hiredman: e.g. versus double, mostly for memory saving reasons
18:46	akhudek	exclusively for memory saving reasons
18:46	bitemyapp	oh, so it's not for throughput.
18:47	bitemyapp	weird use-case.
18:47	hiredman	akhudek: sure, but what do you mean by no support?
18:47	akhudek	hiredman: all the implementations only support double data type
18:47	justin_smith	akhudek: clojure uses 64 bit numerics by preference, but you should be able to put floats in a vector and use that with core.matrix
18:48	bitemyapp	(inc justin_smith)
18:48	lazybot	⇒ 25
18:48	akhudek	justin_smith: I might try that, thanks.
18:49	hiredman	justin_smith: clojure vectors box, so you if the intent is to avoid memory pressure by using 32bit numbers I doubt you want boxing
18:50	akhudek	hiredman: good point. I should have remembered that I ran into that at one point.
18:51	hiredman	there are primitive vectors (that can hold primitive values) but they are not often used, and I imagine most code that just assumes clojure's regular vectors will break / convert the specialized vectors to regular vectors
18:51	bitemyapp	must be irish if they box so prolifically.
18:51	justin_smith	hiredman: true, but can't the libs use floats? or are they typehinted everywhere for doubles only?
18:51	hiredman	justin_smith: I don't know
18:52	hiredman	justin_smith: I imagine they are just going with clojure's flow
18:52	bitemyapp	justin_smith: I think it's pretty hard to keep Clojure from messing with 'em.
18:52	hiredman	the 64bit types are just better supported
18:53	bitemyapp	akhudek: probably cost less to buy RAM.
18:53	thirdy	is there a channel for lighttable?
18:54	thirdy	#lighttable?
18:54	akhudek	bitemyapp: debatable with our hosting provider :-)
18:54	akhudek	I can probably make do with 64-bit for now though
18:54	akhudek	we'll see
18:55	mullr	vectorz-clj, one of the core.matrix backends, doesn't appear to use boxed primitives. (fwiw)
18:56	justin_smith	mullr: yeah, but can it use unboxed floats? I would assume all the core.matrix libs would at least have the option of unboxed doubles
18:56	akhudek	vectorz is double only
18:56	mullr	alasa
18:56	mullr	* alas
18:57	akhudek	the core.matrix code mentioned an ndarray-float implementation, but it claimed it was missing when I tried to access it
18:57	justin_smith	akhudek: how much of core.matrix do you need? maybe you could get by with hiphip?
18:58	akhudek	justin_smith: I'm not doing much at this point, I may just write some custom routines to use a float array
18:58	justin_smith	akhudek: well, hiphip does low level unboxed arrays of arbitrary types, and would likely be a head start with something like that
18:59	justin_smith	https://github.com/prismatic/hiphip
19:00	akhudek	hiphip is worth a try too
19:00	bitemyapp	abara
19:00	bitemyapp	dammit
19:00	justin_smith	bitemyapp: wow, hiphip does "parameterized modules" by defining a type variable followed by load-file
19:01	justin_smith	lol
19:04	bitemyapp	justin_smith: looking at it now. That's hilarious.
19:04	justin_smith	for the lack of functors!
19:07	akurilin	seancorfield: just saw your reply from a month ago about using straight sql for migrations. Glad to find out I'm not the only one not to use a clj library to handle that.
19:07	akurilin	actually using ruby's standalone_migrations, worked fine for the past half year.
19:09	seancorfield	akurilin: well, we started off with plain SQL migrations and a non-Clojure process for running them (via Ant!)
19:09	bitemyapp	justin_smith: if you want to go down the rabbit-hole: http://donsbot.wordpress.com/2009/10/11/self-optimizing-data-structures-using-types-to-make-lists-faster/ http://lpaste.net/71651
19:09	bitemyapp	akurilin: I use a clj library, but it's processing .sql files.
19:09	seancorfield	So moving to a Clojure process to run the same SQL migrations was just a logical step for us.
19:09	philed	justin_smith: Sorry if this is naive --- I haven't read the code --- but why would you need functors in a dynamically typed language? Just use functions from dictionaries or something?
19:10	justin_smith	philed: the code uses type declarations to create unboxed collections
19:10	bitemyapp	philed: it's not about need, it's about scaling up your programming when you need to and abstracting away details.
19:10	akurilin	seancorfield, bitemyapp so essentially no DSL, just something running SQL against your target DB,right?
19:10	justin_smith	it redefines the type to declare, then redefines everything in a new ns
19:10	bitemyapp	for functors in general.
19:10	bitemyapp	akurilin: in my case, yes.
19:10	philed	justin_smith: Ah, it's typed.
19:10	seancorfield	akurilin: correct.
19:11	akurilin	bitemyapp: in your case, does clj just manage sql table with migration ids in it, or something of that sort?
19:11	akurilin	*a sql table
19:11	bitemyapp	akurilin: just look at Migratus.
19:12	seancorfield	akurilin: we have a table with a "db level" in it and that selects which migrations need to run (and then we update it)
19:12	bitemyapp	akurilin: be aware, I stopped using SQL databases for the most part.
19:12	bitemyapp	akurilin: you don't want a single monotonic db level if you can avoid it - Migratus lets you avoid that and not implement anything yourself.
19:12	justin_smith	philed: also, functors are an alternative to what we do with protocols / multimethods, which are less about defining classes and more about using functional composition to create new implementations of operations on existing types
19:13	bitemyapp	philed: in particular, functors are part of a much larger family of algebraic constructs that can be used to abstract your programs.
19:13	bitemyapp	philed: functors, applicative functors, monoids, monads, foldables, traversables, arrows, etc...
19:13	akurilin	bitemyapp, seancorfield interesting, I've never dealt with this issue. So you have a tree-like migration path of sorts rather than one line?
19:13	bitemyapp	akurilin: look at Migratus.
19:13	philed	Oh, you mean functors as in Haskell, not Ocaml.
19:14	bitemyapp	akurilin: there's no point in my saying anything that Migratus' documentation would more accurately explain.
19:14	bitemyapp	or source.
19:14	akurilin	bitemyapp: fine fine :P
19:14	bitemyapp	akurilin: I stopped using SQL databases. when I last used one, I used Migratus.
19:14	bitemyapp	akurilin: there's a reason I haven't touched Korma in awhile.
19:14	bitemyapp	philed: what distinction do you suppose you're making here?
19:16	philed	bitemyapp: Parameterised modules versus endofunctors on your type system.
19:16	bitemyapp	philed: do you think functors in OCaml are somehow not endofunctors?
19:16	alew	besides parametization, what's wrong with clojure namespaces?
19:17	bitemyapp	philed: what do you think is more likely? That there is a schism in PLT and category theory, or that two different languages are using a VERY general category theoretic construct in two different ways?
19:17	bitemyapp	philed: a functor is a functor.
19:17	philed	bitemyapp: I could be persuaded :) But no, I tend to think of functors as functions of modules, and modules not being Ocaml types.
19:18	akurilin	bitemyapp: that's fair.
19:18	bitemyapp	philed: this is partly why I recommend people learn Haskell instead of OCaml, it lets to them believing fewe things that are silly.
19:18	hiredman	the load-string hiphop does is kind of gross, I would have used a macro
19:19	bitemyapp	philed: Functors in OCaml are about abstracting types. Functors in Haskell are about abstracting types.
19:19	bitemyapp	hiredman: sounds like a micro-library waiting to happen.
19:20	philed	bitemyapp: Abstracting types?
19:20	bitemyapp	philed: http://caml.inria.fr/pub/distrib/ocaml-4.01/ocaml-4.01-refman.html#sec20 what does the first line say there?
19:20	bitemyapp	philed: it's the same exact thing in Haskell, they're just being reified to the compiler and used in a weird way in OCaml.
19:20	philed	Functors are functions from structures to structures. In other words, parameterised modules, as I said.
19:21	bitemyapp	philed: that the structure they're parameterizing is a reified module thingy is an implementation detail.
19:21	bitemyapp	philed: it doesn't make them not-Functors.
19:21	philed	They have totally different use-cases.
19:21	bitemyapp	philed: really?
19:22	bitemyapp	because AFAICT, the Haskell community uses them in the same way, just in a more general way that isn't reified to the compiler for the module system.
19:23	hiredman	https://gist.github.com/8230036
19:23	philed	I'm happy to compare Ocaml functor with Haskell type-classes, since those are often used in the same way. But I wouldn't compare Ocaml functors to the Haskell type-class Functor.
19:23	bitemyapp	it doesn't become "not a functor" just because you're narrowing down the scope of how it's used to a single one-off use-case
19:24	philed	I'd write an Ocaml functor to implement the equivalent of Haskell's Functor type-class.
19:24	bitemyapp	philed: hum, that's getting closer to protocols and the like, yeah.
19:24	bitemyapp	philed: but the functor isn't why you get to do that.
19:24	bitemyapp	philed: it's the parameterized module.
19:24	bitemyapp	that they're functors is a bit of a "gimme"
19:25	philed	I'm not sure what you're saying.
19:25	bitemyapp	it's like saying, "but our product is built by programmers that suck air!"
19:25	bitemyapp	well yeah, sure, but that's a bit of a facile and meaningless point to make about a product.
19:25	bitemyapp	functors are so general that a lot of programmatic patterns can be modeled as one.
19:25	philed	If you want to talk about formal translations between the two concepts, I'm all ears.
19:25	bitemyapp	philed: SPJ has thoroughly covered that territory IIRC.
19:26	bitemyapp	philed: he's been soliciting feedback on a similar module system for Haskell.
19:27	philed	bitemyapp: In the Isabelle theorem prover, you have type-classes and an ML style module system. They play nicely together, but they have different uses.
19:27	bitemyapp	but seriously, think about it. (a -> b) -> f a -> f b could be virtually anything.
19:27	bitemyapp	philed: I stay in Haskell land, so if I did anything with proofs it'd be in Agda or Idris.
19:27	philed	Otherwise, they wouldn't have bothered adding in the type-classes.
19:27	philed	Isabelle has Haskabelle!
19:28	bitemyapp	philed: yeah uh, after seeing Coq's "Haskell" support, I'll pass.
19:28	philed	It's pretty good at verifying Haskell programs, though it isn't going for Curry Howard.
19:28	bitemyapp	philed: I think you misunderstood what I was saying.
19:29	noncom	i use the lein "checkouts" feature and there is a problem. if the project i am in does not enlist all the dependencies of the project i am referring to, it fails to find them. I assume, it must take it from the referred project but it does not. Is this the intended behavior?
19:29	bitemyapp	It wasn't an assertion of complete equivalence at the practical level.
19:29	bitemyapp	philed: I was addressing a question that was originally about functors in the abstract.
19:29	bitemyapp	philed: you dove into something that you seem to have misconstrued as being specifically about particular programming languages.
19:30	noncom	technomancy: ping
19:31	philed	bitemyapp: Not sure. justin_smith was referring to parameterized modules when he used the term "functor." That sounds quite specifically like the Ocaml sense of functor.
19:34	alew	What's the best intro to category theory?
19:34	philed	alew: Depends on your background.
19:34	philed	It's a classic bootstrapping problem.
19:36	bbloom	bitemyapp: justin_smith: dammit! i missed a modules/functors discussion :-P
19:36	bbloom	i've felt the need for those myself a few times
19:36	philed	I've found that most cat theory texts start out by saying: hey, to understand monads, just think about homotopy theory! And I go: what the f**k is homotopy theory?
19:36	bbloom	a protocol just doesn't cut it
19:37	philed	bbloom: I'll bite! Why do you want modules/functors?
19:37	alew	philed: what backgrounds matter?
19:39	noncom	what's wrong with monads definition here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monad_(functional_programming)
19:40	bbloom	philed: i was just trying to explain, but realized i'd need to explain one of the projects i ran in to the problem with, etc
19:40	bbloom	philed: the hiphip use case is an obvious one for dealing with unboxed values, but there are other times too
19:40	bitemyapp	bbloom: look at hiredman's paste and the prismatic/hiphip code.
19:40	bitemyapp	oh, you've seen it then.
19:41	bitemyapp	noncom: seems okay.
19:41	philed	bbloom: Are there any cases where you're not dealing with type annotations (as I assume you are talking about unboxed values)?
19:41	technomancy	noncom: hi
19:42	bbloom	philed: yeah, so there are a number of OOP patterns that are better served by modules
19:42	bitemyapp	philed: cat theory and homotopy theory are complementary, IMO.
19:42	noncom	technomancy: hi! please read above ^^
19:42	technomancy	the behaviour you describe is intentional
19:42	noncom	so i just have to include all deps in the present project, right?
19:42	bbloom	philed: the difference is subtle... it's kinda like ruby style metaprogramming vs macros
19:42	bitemyapp	bbloom: or functors. or monoids. or monads. or applicatives, etc etc etc
19:42	technomancy	noncom: yes, :dependencies must be complete
19:43	bbloom	bitemyapp: i'm talking specifically about ML style parameterized modules. not any category notion of functors
19:43	KeithPM	Good day all. I would like someone to review a function I wrote for creating permutations. I am having an issue of inability to convert a java.lang.Long to Object[]. https://www.refheap.com/22414 (Warning) I may have transgressed by creating a function to append an item to the end of a sequence :) Bear with me, it's an academic exercise in recursion at this point
19:43	bitemyapp	bbloom: my point was about ditching OOP for more principled concepts.
19:43	noncom	technomancy: i see, thanks!
19:43	bitemyapp	bbloom: but yeah, parameterized modules are nice.
19:43	bbloom	h ok
19:43	bbloom	ah* ok
19:43	bitemyapp	bbloom: but a more general notion of how to model algebraic concepts and their associated laws in your language is better.
19:44	justin_smith	we should be able to make these work in clojure right? I have wanted them for a while
19:44	bbloom	philed: anywhere you'd do heavyweight dependency injection in java land, is a case a module might make more sense
19:44	bitemyapp	Pimp Thy Compiler is not exactly principled.
19:45	arrdem	bitemyapp: hey now... unprincipled sure but durn effective
19:45	noncom	KeithPM: could you update the reafheap with instructions on how you cal the functons, so we could call them too, like you do?
19:46	KeithPM	:noncom OK will do...
19:46	bbloom	philed: for example, i had an interpreter-like-thing and then wanted to create a compiler-like-thing, but wanted to be able to have the interpreter around still to test with. unfortunately i had to either A) have two separate code bases B) create lots of protocols or C) do what hiphip did and cheat with something like load-string
19:46	bitemyapp	arrdem: sorta? OCaml isn't really playing with a full deck.
19:46	philed	bitemyapp: Ah, I think modules are great for that. Haskell style type-classes force you to choose a canonical model, and other models be damned.
19:46	bitemyapp	arrdem: if by durn effective you mean, "ghetto with one and only one thing anybody wants to steal from it"
19:46	hiredman	we have macros, load-string is gross!!!
19:47	bitemyapp	philed: that is a pretty poor mischaracterization of the differences.
19:47	arrdem	every time I see eval() in another language... the rage...
19:47	justin_smith	hiredman: they mention in the hiphip comments "it's either this one load or a huge pile of macros"
19:47	philed	bbloom: You want protocols to allow you to write generic code?
19:47	bbloom	hiredman: i put your macro in the same category as C
19:47	bbloom	philed: no, i don't. but that's what you need to do in java, for example
19:47	bbloom	we have macros, so we can do static metaprogramming
19:47	hiredman	justin_smith: I doubt they are doing what I am thinking of
19:48	hiredman	if you see by last gist, it is one macro
19:48	bitemyapp	philed: how much Haskell have you done exactly and is your name Robert Harper?
19:48	bbloom	bitemyapp: i disagree with so much shit robert harper says :-P
19:48	hiredman	thinking about it would be best to add something that pushed the namespaces in to loaded-libs
19:48	philed	bitemyapp: I do love Robert Harper. But I've done plenty of Haskell and Ocaml.
19:49	justin_smith	hiredman: ahh, I missed that, much nicer
19:49	bbloom	bitemyapp: either that, or he's just unable to communicate with mortals & i perceive disagreement
19:49	bitemyapp	philed: You should drink a little less Harper kool-aid.
19:49	KeithPM	OK updated https://www.refheap.com/22414
19:49	philed	What makes you think I've drunk any?
19:49	bitemyapp	bbloom: he's an authority on PLT and TT, but he's such an extremist that if his interests had been in politics, he'd have been a terrorist.
19:50	bbloom	heh
19:50	bitemyapp	bbloom: a violent one.
19:50	KeithPM	:noncom I have updated https://www.refheap.com/22414
19:50	bitemyapp	bbloom: he has a hard time imagining that there might be countervailing concerns in PL design.
19:50	bitemyapp	and he has a hard time understanding why others might have their priorities configured differently.
19:52	bitemyapp	philed: the components of what people use ML functors for are, in Clojure parlance, more "decomplected" in Haskell.
19:52	bitemyapp	philed: you cannot obsess over comparing ML functors to typeclasses alone and get the whole picture.
19:52	philed	bbloom: Ack. I'm not sure what to make of what you've said. You've got compiler-like thing and interpret-like thing. What do you want in terms of modules?
19:52	bitemyapp	philed: the power-to-weight ratio that results is better.
19:52	bitemyapp	and easier to understand in isolation.
19:52	philed	bitemyapp: Not sure what you're talking about.
19:53	bbloom	philed: i'm saying that i had two implementations of some library that had a common interface, but that interface did not all have a nice friendly THE-SYSTEM as the first argument to dispatch on
19:53	bitemyapp	philed: ML functors aren't that great and there are better ways to solve the constellation of problems it tries to address all at once.
19:53	bbloom	so if i were to use protocols to make it polymorphic, i'd have to a factory protocol & then various protocols for all the dispatched args in that interface
19:53	bbloom	and then thread through a factory pointer everywhere
19:53	bbloom	it woulda just been java
19:53	bbloom	lol
19:53	bitemyapp	I'm starting to see why Sierra's approach makes people mad.
19:54	philed	bitemyapp: I'm not enamored by ML functors.
19:54	bbloom	there are two interesting papers on functors & type classes
19:54	bitemyapp	bbloom: do tell.
19:54	bbloom	one that creates two transformations, one in each direction
19:54	bbloom	and another that talks about adding "implict" to modules to approximate type classes
19:55	bbloom	let me dig them up
19:55	philed	bitemyapp: I've got an Ocaml monad library in OPAM, and I found the syntax of ML modules so horrendous, that I suspect they'd never have been discovered in ML.
19:55	bbloom	http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/1558
19:55	bbloom	www.mpi-sws.org/~dreyer/papers/mtc/main-long.pdf‎
19:55	bitemyapp	philed: at least Async shows one way to make reasonably sensible use of monads.
19:56	bitemyapp	bbloom: thanks, now I have something to read during the Clojure meetup.
19:56	noncom	KeithPM: hmmmm...
19:56	bbloom	bitemyapp: async uses monads only b/c i got to tim too late to convince him to use a concatenative DSL in place of his state monad :-P
19:57	philed	bbloom: I'm just not sure how parameterised modules would help. This might sound naive, but if you want parameterised modules in Clojure, just turn modules to dictionaries and have those dictionaries as the first argument to functions representing functors. The syntax will only be as horrible as ML.
19:57	bbloom	philed: that's a dynamic technique, i want a static one
19:57	arrdem	Bronsa: do you have docs somewhere of the AST format that tools.analyzer(.*) emits?
19:57	bbloom	see also http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/mzlib_unit.html
19:57	KeithPM	noncom: Headache?
19:57	bitemyapp	philed: I'm with bbloom, I'd want a static one.
19:57	bbloom	which is a modules-like construct in a scheme
19:58	bbloom	guide is a better doc page for this: http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/units.html
19:58	bitemyapp	bbloom: I don't like arbitrary DSLs. They don't compose like monads.
19:58	noncom	,(vec 3)
19:58	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to convert: class java.lang.Long to Object[]>
19:58	noncom	see
19:58	KeithPM	noncom: OK...
19:58	bbloom	"A unit resembles a procedure in that both are first-class values that are used for abstraction. While procedures abstract over values in expressions, units abstract over names in collections of definitions."
19:58	noncom	you do (map vec a-seq)
19:58	noncom	which maps (vec) over longs
19:58	bbloom	unit==module, but racket already fucked up & called it's namespaces modules :-P
19:58	bitemyapp	bbloom: nutty.
19:58	KeithPM	Yes.. I was worried about that, but I was 'hoping' that I would always receive a sequence... OK... I will double check
19:59	philed	bitemyapp: You mean async in Ocaml?
19:59	noncom	,(vec [3])
19:59	clojurebot	[3]
19:59	philed	I've only ever played with lwt.
19:59	noncom	,(vec (seq 3))
19:59	clojurebot	#<ExceptionInfo clojure.lang.ExceptionInfo: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long {:instance 3}>
19:59	bbloom	bitemyapp: you wouldn't have recognized it as DSL
19:59	KeithPM	noncom: Thanks... Will fix it :)
19:59	noncom	yeah
19:59	bbloom	bitemyapp: it would basically just be a reduce over a lazy seq of "instructions"
19:59	bbloom	like Fipp is :-)
20:00	bitemyapp	bbloom: there is a reason people are moving towards monadic GLL parser combinators :\|
20:00	hyPiRion	uh eh, not sure how parameterized modules in Clojure would make nasty syntax
20:02	philed	hyPiRion: If you want to write generic code in Ocaml, you end up having to wrap all your code in a parameterised module that has arguments for all the modules that are defining your interfaces. It's pretty horrible. OO is more lightweight, and makes sense with multiple dispatch.
20:03	bbloom	OO & dispatch don't make any kind of sense at all :-P
20:03	philed	You still lose if you want to write functions that return generic values.
20:04	bitemyapp	which Haskell accomplishes just fine.
20:04	bitemyapp	Having generic functions that participate in parameterized typeclasses, that is.
20:05	hyPiRion	philed: yeah, but that's not necessarily how it needs to be done in Clojure
20:05	noncom	KeithPM: idk if you've fixed it, but using "vector" instead of "vec" does it
20:05	hyPiRion	You could probably make it like Erlang's parameterized modules, granted with a slight performance penalty
20:06	KeithPM	noncom: OK... I was trying to convert sequence but I will use try vector instead
20:17	bitemyapp	philed: bbloom - http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Polymorphism#Ad-hoc_polymorphism this bit is important.
20:17	bitemyapp	to me, anyway.
20:17	audaxion	can anyone point me to a good podcast for learning clojure?
20:19	pdurbin	audaxion: http://feeds.feedburner.com/thinkrelevance/podcast
20:19	audaxion	pdurbin, thanks
20:20	bitemyapp	it really worries me that Bing is faster to use to get directions than Google Maps these days.
20:22	bbloom	bitemyapp: agreed. was literally just talking w/ dnolen about delegation earlier, which is basically the dynamic version of newtype + auto deriving
20:23	bitemyapp	bbloom: you can't do generalized newtype deriving in a sound way.
20:23	bitemyapp	bbloom: you can make it work in cases that'll make a demo go smoothly, but you can't rely on it.
20:23	bbloom	bitemyapp: good thing i could care less about soundness :-P
20:23	bitemyapp	couldn't*
20:24	bbloom	i couldn't care less what the correct expression is
20:24	bitemyapp	bbloom: I have varying degrees of "give a fuck"-ness about soundness, but I'm serious, you can make incorrect programs from generalized newtype derivation.
20:24	bitemyapp	there are times with violating soundness does and does not matter. This isn't one of those cases I'd happily ignore.
20:24	bitemyapp	times when*
20:24	Bronsa	arrdem: not yet, sorry, that's something that I need to do :/
20:25	arrdem	Bronsa: nbd. I'm just hacking together the IR for an assembler suite and I'd like it's representation to match yours for obvious reasons.
20:25	bitemyapp	bbloom: if your program isn't correct, you can't get very far with the fancy toys at your disposable - and worse - if you use pimp things out too much you won't even know which bad idea is responsible for the fuckery.
20:25	bbloom	bitemyapp: sure, but the point is that newtype == a wrapper in a dynamic context, which we can trivially create with (deftype Wrapper [wrapped]) but then you have the new problem of how to make it 90% like the wrapped thing, since that's what you usually want
20:26	bbloom	bitemyapp: yeah, but most folks can't be trusted w/ deftype and defrecord right now anyway, so it's just an extension of that problem :-P
20:26	bitemyapp	It's more than that.
20:26	bitemyapp	GNTD can fuck anybody, not just clueless people.
20:27	bbloom	shrug i haven't fully internalized the benefits & pitfalls yet, just starting to think more about this stuff
20:28	bitemyapp	bbloom: hacking Haskell is a good way to get a direct handle on it.
20:28	bbloom	bitemyapp: i know enough haskell to know that i disagree w/ a few fundamental things that have a major impact down the line on these things too. we've talked about some of that stuff before
20:29	bbloom	eg i think return type polymorphism is a bad idea :-P
20:29	bitemyapp	bbloom: there's a way to make GND sound and safe.
20:30	bitemyapp	but you have to go further down the types rabbit-hole.
20:30	bbloom	bitemyapp: i have some ideas about going further down the dynamic rabbit-hole :-P
20:30	peregrin_	anyone have good/bad experiences using korma?
20:31	bbloom	bitemyapp: in short, i think that staging is better than typing
20:31	bitemyapp	bbloom: sigh, there's nothing unique or special about "dynamic", you're going to have to learn how to do it right from a type-theoretic point of view.
20:32	bitemyapp	bbloom: you're being foolish, you're better than that. Look here for the current state of making GND safe: https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Roles
20:32	bbloom	bitemyapp: you're assuming you understand my entire perspective from two sentences in IRC, note that you expect i'm better than that, then still call me foolish?
20:33	bitemyapp	because it's not about ego.
20:33	bitemyapp	bbloom: you're going to have to drop the uni-type fetishism if you want to at least reach parity with the current body of understanding on PLT - such as how to attack problems like GND.
20:34	KeithPM	noncom: I think I actually need vec. Vector doesn't convert the inner sequences to vector, it just wraps a vector around the sequence. I will probably have to ensure that I don't get to an integer... Stop at singleton or something... I'll take a look. Thanks
20:34	dnolen	bitemyapp: "current body of understanding on PLT" eye roll
20:34	bbloom	bitemyapp: i'll drop the uni-type fetish when the PLT community drops the uni-type-system fetish
20:34	bitemyapp	dnolen: http://ro-che.info/ccc/17
20:35	bbloom	bitemyapp: i won't claim to be a professional with type theory, but i certainly know it a whole hell of a lot better than most dynamic typing proponents. i'm firmly in that red/green spot
20:36	bitemyapp	type theory in uni-typed languages is like removing the clutch from a vehicle and marvelling at how "fast" your car goes when you rev it to 9,000 RPM
20:36	akhudek	peregrin_: not my preferred sql lib. Feel it bundles too much and doesn't have clean escape hatches to raw jdbc.
20:37	bbloom	bitemyapp: "uni-typed" is rhetoric. it's not a useful descriptor of anything
20:37	bbloom	bitemyapp: it's clearly a good idea to design a language that is highly amenable to static analysis, especially formal analysis, such as by modern type systems
20:38	bbloom	bitemyapp: but to call such a language uni-typed b/c it enforces types at runtime is just plain silly
20:38	bitemyapp	peregrin_: if you want the opinion of a Korma maintainer, you might be better off with HoneySQL unless you're interested in working on a Korma refactor.
20:38	peregrin_	akhudek Honey will have to be it, korma seems to be dead or dying :/
20:39	bitemyapp	peregrin_: it's not dead, we're just waiting for somebody to give enough of a fuck to actually do something about it.
20:39	bitemyapp	one of the maintainers doesn't use SQL databases much anymore and doesn't have time to dump into a library nobody else will contribute to.
20:39	bbloom	bitemyapp: since we were linking to dmbarbour's mad scientist ravings earlier: http://awelonblue.wordpress.com/2013/09/04/staging-is-simpler-than-type-checking/
20:39	peregrin_	bitemyapp sounds like the definition of death to me..
20:40	akhudek	bitemyapp: what would you want beyond what honeysql gives?
20:40	peregrin_	akhudek bitemyapp not everyone is in love with manually writing yet another insert/update/parse results function
20:41	bitemyapp	akhudek: schema-awareness.
20:41	bitemyapp	akhudek: honeySQL is pretty spare. It's really just a SQL generator.
20:41	peregrin_	extremely spare
20:41	peregrin_	just a SLIGHTLY better way to write sql in clojure
20:42	bitemyapp	bbloom: you might be misconstruing what he's talking about here.
20:42	bbloom	bitemyapp: i am not
20:42	akhudek	bitemyapp: I mocked up the start of a schema aware lib the other day, though not sure where to go with it. Found that I could easily pull a schema from an sql database into clojure and then use it for some light sql generation + checks for things like column name typos.
20:42	bitemyapp	bbloom: preference for statically verified type systems does not mean the disinclusion of libraries with uni-typed APIs/objects.
20:43	bitemyapp	bbloom: preference for uni-typed languages almost always means you cannot and will not design a sane or safe type system for verifying your programs.
20:43	peregrin_	akhudek thats what ruby/sequel does. it works pretty great
20:44	bbloom	bitemyapp: uni-typed is already an insufficiently defined phrase, you're making an insufficiently substantiated generalization, and then attributing that position to me
20:46	akhudek	peregrin_: the main problem I see in many sql generating libraries is that they try to be the sole interface to the database + completely hide it under some abstraction layer.
20:46	akhudek	I see the value in generating sql for common use case patterns though
20:47	peregrin_	akhudek look at Sequel for ruby, it does a really good job of abstracting SQL into ruby syntax but then giving you super simple prepared statements that returns hashes.
20:49	peregrin_	i mean you can go super deal and use it like active record. or you can use it like honeysql. or you can use it just to make pstatements. I seen absolutely nothing like this in clojure...
20:49	peregrin_	deal/deep i/i've
20:50	bbloom	bitemyapp: i think it is perfectly reasonable/acceptable to design a language that has provably safe runtime behavior, but programs in that language can not be proven free of certain common classes of errors, as long as approximate reasoning is generally free of common classes of errors
20:50	bbloom	bitemyapp: see also http://www.cse.chalmers.se/~nad/publications/danielsson-et-al-popl2006.html
20:52	bbloom	approximate reasoning == it's A-OK to create a logical system that abstracts over some details and fails to validate some subset of useful programs or fails to detect some subset of erroneous programs
20:52	seangrove	bbloom: I've very much come around to the idea that programs should be amenable to static analysis, whatever that means. I think types are a good idea, but maybe not the only one.
20:52	akhudek	peregrin_: interesting, thanks for the link
20:53	seangrove	peregrin_: https://twitter.com/peregrine ?
20:53	peregrin_	seangrove yes :) how you doing man?
20:53	bbloom	seangrove: agreed. hence my stance on optional type systems
20:53	bbloom	and my lack of caring for soundness
20:53	bbloom	:-P
20:54	seangrove	peregrin_: Doing well, cool to see you hacking with clojure!
20:54	peregrin_	akhudek it makes me life really hard whenever I'm like "clojure looks cool I know I'll write my next api in it"
20:54	peregrin_	seangrove been wanting to forever. Backing off elixir cause its pretty green
20:55	seangrove	Well, the om/react, core.async. core.typed, cljs ecosystem is pretty lovely
20:55	seangrove	Possibly throw in datomic there as well, but I haven't had a chance to properly play with it
20:56	peregrin_	seangrove yea cljs is a ton more exciting than clojure proper to me :) I wish they would decide to actually launch it
20:56	seangrove	bbloom: I guess I missed your stance on optional typing systems - they're not worth it, or they're an amenable approach?
20:56	peregrin_	seangrove I mean how long has it been "alpha"?
20:57	seangrove	peregrin_: Well, hack on it. We have two apps in production (well, one in production, one in alpha), and it's easy to get patches in
20:57	seangrove	And it's fun to hack on anyway
20:57	bbloom	seangrove: my firm and clear stance is that your language's observable semantics should not depend on your type system
20:57	peregrin_	seangrove yea, hard to sell to a client "going to use this alpha software" gotta use it on my own projects
20:57	bbloom	seangrove: however, my design criteria for a new language, should i design one, would include co-development of a modern type system, as to ensure the language is highly amenable to such reasoning
20:58	seangrove	peregrin_: I don't know exactly what the hold up is, I think dnolen has a few things he wants to get done before a 1.0
20:58	UltimateEyePatch	bbloom, are you an expert on clojure?
20:58	seangrove	UltimateEyePatch: If anyone is....
20:58	UltimateEyePatch	Excellent
20:58	UltimateEyePatch	bbloom, you can't combine recur with apply can you?
20:59	arrdem	UltimateEyePatch: correct. recur is a special form not a function.
20:59	bbloom	seangrove: aw, thanks :-P
20:59	peregrin_	seangrove yea it seems easy enough to use with cljsbuild and I ran into zero front end bugs using it
20:59	bbloom	UltimateEyePatch: you can address the whole room with that question
20:59	seangrove	bbloom: It's an interesting problem designing a language meant to be consumed by tools with enough metadata to soundly reason about it
20:59	peregrin_	with a demo app*
20:59	UltimateEyePatch	arrdem, is there any way to recur variadically?
20:59	UltimateEyePatch	bbloom, but I'd rather address you...
20:59	UltimateEyePatch	You re my special favourite
20:59	arrdem	UltimateEyePatch: how would a vardic return make any sense?
21:00	UltimateEyePatch	arrdem, well ehh
21:00	UltimateEyePatch	like, reduce in clojure
21:00	UltimateEyePatch	fold-left
21:00	UltimateEyePatch	Is not variadic, or is it?
21:00	bbloom	seangrove: tools already deal with this sort of thing. most transformations IntelliJ does, for example, have reaaaaallly esoteric edge cases. turns out that they just cover the majority of realistic things that realistic programs do & then have check-as-you-go UI plus some log output with warnings, if a non-provably-correct refactoring occurs
21:00	arrdem	UltimateEyePatch: nope. fold left isn't.
21:00	UltimateEyePatch	Can it be made variadic and still be tail recursive?
21:01	UltimateEyePatch	Maybe some kind of double reduce?
21:01	arrdem	UltimateEyePatch: not really...
21:02	seangrove	bbloom: Yeah, but it's quite a lot of effort in java to provide enough meta-information for tools to ready - repeated types, public/private, etc.
21:02	UltimateEyePatch	So you have to make reduce, reduce2, reduce3, reduce4 etc for allt he cases yu might need?
21:02	UltimateEyePatch	Or grow stack space
21:02	bbloom	seangrove: oh yeah, for sure, better language design w/ toolability in mind is a big deal. agreed. my point was just that approximate reasoning is OK :-)
21:02	seangrove	bbloom: Ah, I see. I'm hesitant, but it's probably true.
21:03	arrdem	UltimateEyePatch: what you propose is silly. What problem are you trying to adress here? refheap preferred.
21:03	bbloom	seangrove: like LINQ choosign to use `from x select y` instead of `select y from x` so that you can autocomplete when you type y
21:03	seangrove	bbloom: Ah, you mean as a language design?
21:04	seangrove	(of LINQ)
21:04	UltimateEyePatch	arrdem, well, sometimes you need to fold/reduce 2 lists at once.
21:04	UltimateEyePatch	So, you can then just define a reduce2 function for that and no problem
21:04	UltimateEyePatch	Sometimes 3, so you make reduce3 and so fourth
21:04	bbloom	seangrove: yeah, linq was carefully designed to be familiar to people who know SQL, but much more friendly to Visual Studio users :-)
21:04	arrdem	UltimateEyePatch: stock reduce provides that behavior unless I miss my mark..
21:04	UltimateEyePatch	It'd just be cleaner if these were all one function
21:04	UltimateEyePatch	arrdem, I've just been told that reduce can only reduce 1 list
21:05	arrdem	,(doc reduce)
21:05	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f val coll]); f should be a function of 2 arguments. If val is not supplied, returns the result of applying f to the first 2 items in coll, then applying f to that result and the 3rd item, etc. If coll contains no items, f must accept no arguments as well, and reduce returns the result of calling f with no arguments. If coll has only 1 item, it is returned and f is not called. If val i...
21:05	bbloom	UltimateEyePatch: arrdem: reduce over a (map vector ...)
21:05	seangrove	Clever
21:05	arrdem	UltimateEyePatch: yep that's the pattern.
21:05	bbloom	(reduce (fn [acc [x y]] ...) (map vector xs ys))
21:06	bitemyapp	bbloom: No thanks.
21:06	bitemyapp	bbloom: I'm okay with allowing some possibly invalid programs, but soundly typed programs are a sensible default.
21:06	bitemyapp	bbloom: static analysis is good for many things, type checking is only one of them.
21:06	arrdem	UltimateEyePatch: you could define a macro or wrapper fns, but you'd just be wrapping that pattern.
21:07	bbloom	bitemyapp: um, that's what i've been saying
21:07	bitemyapp	bbloom: but what I'm saying is that you should start with a static/strong/functional/non-strict language and only step outside of that paradigm strictly when necessary on a case-by-case basis.
21:07	UltimateEyePatch	Wait, (vector list) returns a vector with all of the elements of list right?
21:07	UltimateEyePatch	It doesn't return a vector which only contains list and stuff
21:08	bitemyapp	,(vector '(1 2 3))
21:08	clojurebot	[(1 2 3)]
21:08	bitemyapp	,(vec '(1 2 3))
21:08	clojurebot	[1 2 3]
21:08	UltimateEyePatch	Ahhh
21:08	bitemyapp	bbloom: ^^ these things are easier to understand if you had a type signature for vector and vec.
21:08	bitemyapp	alas. :\|
21:08	UltimateEyePatch	Well, then then I don't it, then (map vector xs xys) basically contains a list of 2-size vectors right?
21:09	seangrove	bitemyapp: Yeah, I had to check that earlier today too
21:09	bitemyapp	type-checking could've told him they were using the wrong function.
21:09	UltimateEyePatch	don't get it*
21:09	bitemyapp	UltimateEyePatch: basically a zipper.
21:09	bitemyapp	er, sorry, zip.
21:09	bitemyapp	not a zipper as such.
21:09	bitemyapp	UltimateEyePatch: map can take multiple iterables.
21:09	bbloom	bitemyapp: i'm not sure why we're arguing, since you seem to agree with my point of view lol
21:09	bitemyapp	UltimateEyePatch: it walks them in sequential lock-step, ending on the shortest one.
21:09	bitemyapp	bbloom: then why are you using Clojure?
21:10	UltimateEyePatch	Yeah, so the function will then just use that vector as argument?
21:10	UltimateEyePatch	THat makes kind of sense I guess
21:10	seangrove	peregrin_: Let me know if you'd like to hack on any side projects in Clojure from time to time. I often work on small things with people for fun a few hours a week.
21:10	arrdem	bitemyapp: says the pot to the kettle...
21:10	bitemyapp	UltimateEyePatch: vector is the function applied to the results.
21:10	peregrin_	nice
21:10	peregrin_	seangrove sounds good man. I'll let you know
21:10	bitemyapp	arrdem: how much Clojure do you think I've written outside of the day job in the last couple months?
21:11	bitemyapp	arrdem: or even six months?
21:11	bitemyapp	arrdem: Brambling was during my 9-5.
21:11	arrdem	bitemyapp: I don't care. you still lurk here.
21:11	bitemyapp	arrdem: that's because cool people like you reside.
21:11	bbloom	bitemyapp: i don't know why i try to exchange perspectives with you, you always get so combative
21:11	arrdem	bitemyapp: lol. my point stands.
21:11	bitemyapp	#python has no such dilemma for me.
21:11	bitemyapp	bbloom: I didn't feel combative.
21:12	bitemyapp	bbloom: I just resolve incompatible models of the universe aggressively.
21:12	bbloom	bitemyapp: arrdem's pot/kettle comment suggests to me that i'm not the only one who perceived combativeness :-P
21:12	bitemyapp	bbloom: I feel happy we had that conversation. :)
21:12	t3soro	Hey guys, I am trying to use extend-type, but it's not making sense to me
21:12	bitemyapp	80% of why I use Clojure has to do with Datomic. If not more.
21:12	bitemyapp	I don't exactly have a choice.
21:12	t3soro	Here is a minimized example, if anyone can see what's going wrong? http://pastebin.com/EL010ryZ
21:13	arrdem	bbloom: just pick your battles and tune the rest out :P
21:14	bitemyapp	arrdem: but we agreed?
21:14	arrdem	bitemyapp: just because I agree with you doesn't require that I pay attention when you start :P
21:15	bitemyapp	arrdem: mayhaps.
21:15	bitemyapp	arrdem: I'm at a Clojure meetup. I don't think there's a planned talk. Considering using it as an opportunity to teach some Haskell.
21:15	arrdem	bitemyapp: haha go for it. I need to put together a lightning talk on core.typed ... :/
21:16	bitemyapp	Ouch.
21:16	bitemyapp	arrdem: do what I do. Step 1: Know what you're talking about (kinda) Step 2: Wing it.
21:16	ryanf	t3soro: I believe you want (hello "world"), not (.hello "world")
21:17	ryanf	I could be wrong though
21:17	t3soro	hey thanks ryanf i actually just tried that, and you're right, that works.
21:19	arrdem	bitemyapp: yep. I suspect it's gonna come down to a "here's c.c.t, here's the semantics of a signature, here's the workflow, here are some failure modes I've encountered."
21:19	t3soro	I was under the impression that all protocol methods had to be called with .
21:19	arrdem	t3soro: nope!
21:20	t3soro	time to clean that out of a dozen namespaces now lol
21:23	Denommus	what version of leiningen should I install?
21:24	peregrin_	latest?
21:24	clojurebot	latest is forget latest
21:24	peregrin_	thanks clojurebot
21:25	saclark	Clojure noob here. My repl complains that it cannot resolve `seqable?` but everywhere I look online says that should be in core. Do I have require something to use it?
21:28	peregrin_	,(doc seqable?)
21:28	clojurebot	Pardon?
21:28	peregrin_	could try seq?
21:29	peregrin_	oh looks like seqable is in clojure.contrib.core but maybe seq? would work the same?
21:29	peregrin_	,(doc seq?)
21:29	clojurebot	"([x]); Return true if x implements ISeq"
21:30	bbloom	peregrin_: nope, that's seq? not can-be-made-in-to-a-seq
21:30	bbloom	saclark: try coll? which is close enough
21:32	Denommus	clojurescript looks complicate to setup
21:32	peregrin_	Denommus this should help a ton https://github.com/emezeske/lein-cljsbuild
21:36	rads	Denommus: http://swannodette.github.io/2013/10/27/the-essence-of-clojurescript/
21:36	saclark	Thanks guys, I think I'll just use `seq?` it should be good enough in my case
21:36	Denommus	I was thinking about using ClojureScript in a Qt HTML5 application
21:40	Denommus	but I could just... implement it in ClojureScript and then put the generated sources in Qt later :-)
21:54	bitemyapp	arrdem: yeah, going to give a talk on Haskell.
21:54	bitemyapp	What is good in life? Trolling Clojure meetups with Haskell.
21:54	bitemyapp	arrdem: the failures part of your talk could be particularly interesting.
21:55	bitemyapp	arrdem: tell them an angry tribal deity strikes them with a lightning bolt if the type of their function is Any * -> Any *
21:56	arrdem	bitemyapp: angry tribal deities aren't the only ones who wage war with lightning bolts...
21:57	bitemyapp	arrdem: "I'm your god too!"
21:59	rovar	writeup on DayZ on Hackernews
22:00	indigo	Trolololo types
22:00	arrdem	rovar: oh god why
22:01	rovar	it is relevant to their interests?
22:01	indigo	HN is a major circlejerk
22:01	rovar	https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7003821
22:01	indigo	I feel like the more I read it the less productive I am :\|
22:02	rovar	I recommend reading it not more than once a day, purely for productivity reasons
22:02	rovar	ironically, the only highly popular forum that isn't a circlejerk is /r/circlejerk
22:02	indigo	rovar: I believe there was that one HN by email service
22:03	indigo	It would send you the top articles from HN over a week by email
22:03	rovar	sounds like an RMS-esque solution
22:03	indigo	Haha
22:03	indigo	Who knows
22:04	indigo	RMS is probably more productive than all of us because he spends less time reading "how I built 30 apps last year"
22:05	rovar	perhaps he should be a little less productive.
22:05	rovar	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sJUDx7iEJw
22:05	rovar	that's all I have to say on that topic
22:06	tarantulee	Someone get the link for him eating some stuff off his foot
22:06	arrdem	ah RMS....
22:06	indigo	Heh
22:06	indigo	rovar: I thought you'd be linking the foot video
22:06	indigo	He is definitely an eccentric
22:06	rovar	somehow I think that this one is more tragic than eating foot particles
22:07	rovar	its slow and hard to watch, but just keeps going.. not unlike a train wrock
22:07	rovar	wreck
22:07	arrdem	rovar: I love the comparison
22:08	rovar	man I hate being sick and having way too much stuff to do.
22:33	bbloom	common lisp has attribute lists on symbols... but other than that... does any other well known language have something akin to clojure's metadata?
22:33	arrdem	bbloom: runtime symbol metadata?
22:33	arrdem	/value metadata
22:33	arrdem	not that I know of.
22:33	bbloom	either, both, whatever :-P
22:34	arrdem	usually you'd make the metadata explicitly part of the data...
22:34	arrdem	which is why Clojure has seperate metadata :D
22:34	bbloom	i assume that rich's inspiration was lisp's symbol attributes, but was wondering if there was something else to study too
22:39	bbloom	http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/ref/Annotation.html :-)
22:42	bbloom	seems like Annotation[5, "foo"] prints as just 5, but + isn't overloaded for annotations sadly :-P
23:26	seangrove	Interesting, haven't heard much about pigpen http://techblog.netflix.com/2014/01/introducing-pigpen-map-reduce-for.html
23:26	seangrove	I would have expected a bit more noise on twitter, at least
23:31	bbloom	neat
23:40	Denommus	so Clojure's ~ is like Common Lisp's ,
23:41	bbloom	Denommus: yes, and ~@ is like ,@
23:41	bbloom	Denommus: commas are whitespace in clojure
23:42	Denommus	bbloom: clojure is hygienic, right?
23:43	arrdem	Denommus: no. macros can leak symbols and refer to symbols which are not bound in the macro or macro definition environment.
23:43	bbloom	Denommus: clojure encourages hygiene with automatic symbol qualification and gensym unification, but clojure allows you to be easily defeat those mechanisms with ~'
23:44	arrdem	,(macoexpand `(~'foo))
23:44	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: macoexpand in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
23:44	arrdem	,(macroexpand `(~'foo))
23:44	clojurebot	(foo)
23:44	technomancy	it's easy to be unhygenic but difficult to do it by accident
23:44	Denommus	I expected it, somehow
23:49	thirdy	From the book Programming Clojure: true? tests whether a value is actually true, not whether the value evaluates to true in a boolean context. The only thing that is true? is true itself
23:49	thirdy	confusing
23:49	technomancy	clojure.core/true? is not a useful function
23:50	bbloom	technomancy: i've used it :-P
23:50	thirdy	(true? (= 1 1)) evalues to true
23:50	Denommus	(def a true) (true? a) evaluates to true, too
23:50	thirdy	what does it my mean by 'in a boolean context'?
23:51	bbloom	,(map (juxt identity true? false? boolean) [0 5 {} [] "foo" :bar 'baz true false nil])
23:51	clojurebot	([0 false false true] [5 false false true] [{} false false true] [[] false false true] ["foo" false false true] ...)
23:51	arrdem	(inc bbloom)
23:51	thirdy	from my understanding: it's telling me that true? will only work with the literal true e.g. (true? true), nothing more
23:52	bbloom	thirdy: a boolean context is anywhere an object is coerced to a boolean, which is basically only in 'if or things built out of 'if
23:52	Denommus	thirdy: for example, (if "a" "b" "c") evaluates to "b", but (if (true? "a") "b" "c") evaluates to "c"
23:53	bbloom	thirdy: try that (map (juxt ...)) expression i entered in your local repl & think on it for a bit :-)
23:53	Denommus	thirdy: that is, (true? a) is mostly the same thing as (= true a)
23:53	bbloom	,(map (juxt identity true? false? boolean #(if % :then :else)) [0 5 {} [] "foo" :bar 'baz true false nil])
23:53	clojurebot	([0 false false true :then] [5 false false true :then] [{} false false true :then] [[] false false true :then] ["foo" false false true :then] ...)
23:54	Denommus	I need to sleep
23:55	arrdem	,(defn sleep? [& m0ar] true)
23:55	clojurebot	#'sandbox/sleep?
23:55	bbloom	,(sleep?)
23:55	clojurebot	true
23:56	bbloom	you can def things in clojurebot? wut?
23:56	bbloom	(def wtf "!?")
23:56	bbloom	,(def wtf "!?")
23:56	clojurebot	#'sandbox/wtf
23:56	bbloom	,wtf?
23:56	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: wtf? in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
23:56	bbloom	,wtf
23:56	clojurebot	"!?"
23:56	arrdem	lol
23:56	arrdem	bbloom: I think they get undef'd after some time window but yes we can now use def.
23:56	bbloom	,(def inc dec)
23:56	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.SecurityException: denied, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
23:56	arrdem	hahahaha
23:57	bbloom	,(defn inc [x] (dec x))
23:57	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.SecurityException: denied, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
23:57	marcopolo`	,(def foo 1)
23:57	clojurebot	#'sandbox/foo
23:59	hiredman	clojurebot: oh clojurebot, wait have you done?
23:59	clojurebot	Huh?
23:59	thirdy	,(= true a)
23:59	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: a in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>