#clojure – 2013-12-19

2013-12-19

00:03	noprompt	bitemyapp: we'll probably have to move our pairing session to sunday if that's cool.
00:04	noprompt	bitemyapp: i have to attend holiday "events" tomorrow and potentially friday.
00:29	deadghost_	hmm how I can recover from an exception?
00:30	deadghost_	(clojure.java.io/reader "http://deadgho.st/this-page-does-not-exist")
00:31	deadghost_	gives a file not found exception
00:31	deadghost_	I want to tell it to continue the program
00:32	deadghost_	or in the case of 503 try a few more times then continue
00:33	TEttinger	##(doc try)
00:33	lazybot	⇒ "Special: try; catch-clause => (catch classname name expr)\n finally-clause => (finally expr)\n\n Catches and handles Java exceptions."
00:34	seancorfield	deadghost_: perhaps use clj-http instead so you have more control over how HTTP status is handled?
00:55	blur3d	does anyone know of an idiomatic way to define an expression once and allow it to be bi-directional (eg. 1 day = 24 hours and 24 hours = 1 day)
00:56	blur3d	would something like core.logic be suitable?
00:56	bitemyapp	noprompt: this weekend works.
00:59	noprompt	bitemyapp: fantastic.
01:02	echo-area	blur3d: Will java.util.concurrent.TimeUnit be suitable for you?
01:02	echo-area	Oh, that is only an example
01:02	blur3d	I'm looking to use it in a much broader sense
01:03	blur3d	something like this
01:03	blur3d	http://www.algebrahelp.com/calculators/equation/calc.do?equation=a%3D2b&solvf=b
01:04	blur3d	I'm fairly sure i have seen an example in clojure somewhere... likely in one of the books I've read, but its hard to find
01:04	blur3d	basically i want to be able to define something once, and flag it is reversible - and then it automatically adds both variations
01:05	TEttinger	blur3d, sounds like a use for macros?
01:05	TEttinger	like def-rev
01:06	blur3d	yeah, the macro can be used to define both of them... but i need a way to start with a=2b and get b=0.5a
01:06	echo-area	I saw similar things in SICP which introduced a constraint propagation system. Not sure if it exists for Clojure though
01:07	blur3d	maybe was I remember was a reverse stack function in C.
01:08	blur3d	Im hoping to find something I can use generically... so if it knows you can get AUD/USD, then it knows you can get USD/AUD
01:10	echo-area	blur3d: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-22.html#%_sec_3.3.5 Maybe implementing something like this is a last resort
01:13	blur3d	I know the problem is similar to unit conversion, thus you can define a base unit as 1 and then the other units as a factor of the base - and for that you can use multi-dimensional analysis
01:19	blur3d	anyway, ill keep looking out. Thanks @echo-area TEttinger
01:20	TEttinger	np
01:21	TEttinger	speaking of heavy metal in boss fights, Giygas part one has nes-style music, then transitions to http://youtu.be/9gbG_gzgyJI?t=2m6s
01:22	TEttinger	gah wrong chan
01:39	blur3d	I've found something that I might be able to work off - https://github.com/francoisdevlin/Full-Disclojure/blob/master/src/episode_012/episode_012.clj
01:40	blur3d	it has a video covering it also http://vimeo.com/9666573
02:10	chenglou	clojure newb here, why does the let statement take a vector for binding and not a map
02:14	blur3d	chenglou: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3859765/why-does-let-require-a-vector
02:15	chenglou	blur3d: ah thanks. Isn't that slightly expensive though
02:15	chenglou	I've read that the implementation is a 32-way tree
02:16	chenglou	but I guess usually they dont exceed a certain number of items
02:16	blur3d	I really haven't looked into it
02:16	chenglou	kk thanks
02:17	TEttinger	chenglou, I think the trees are used for sorted sequences IIRC
02:17	chenglou	TEttinger: I read it's the vector's underlying implementation
02:17	TEttinger	to the src!
02:18	blur3d	chenglou: IIRC hash-maps are internally vectors, so I would presume they are more performant then hash-maps
02:18	TEttinger	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/PersistentVector.java
02:19	chenglou	TEttinger: yep
02:19	chenglou	blur3d: didn't know that, thanks
02:20	TEttinger	it appears to be a linked list up to or after 32 items, I cannot make sense of this
02:20	chenglou	TEttinger: 32-way tree
02:20	chenglou	TEttinger: http://hypirion.com/musings/understanding-persistent-vector-pt-1
02:20	chenglou	got it
02:21	chenglou	btw loving clojure right now, it makes so much sense =)
02:24	TEttinger	yeah, that kind of data structure seems to be pretty useful in general. I know Judy Arrays (a kind of less-memory-intensive associative array designed to reduce cache misses, but 20K lines of code) internally use a 32 or larger way tree
02:24	TEttinger	err trie
02:26	chenglou	first time I hear about judy arrays
02:27	chenglou	that thing looks awesome and has no performance downside...?
02:27	seriously_random	how to rewrite "(condition? (= blah bleh) (cons '() (recursive-fn (+ 1 n) a-seq))" so that function in the end doesn't give back a list with useless '()?
02:28	noidi_	seriously_random, maybe a list comprehension would work better than explicit recursion and consing: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/for
02:28	noidi_	seriously_random, the first example on that page demonstrates the use of `:when` to filter out elements
02:29	seriously_random	noidi_, it's got to be recursive
02:30	noidi_	why?
02:30	clojurebot	http://clojure.org/rationale
02:31	noidi_	http://blog.fogus.me/2011/03/09/recursion-is-a-low-level-operation/
02:31	seriously_random	noidi_, because it's mooc :)
02:32	seriously_random	also, recursions are kinda cool
02:46	rurumate	How to pass command line arguments (like input path) to a cascalog job jar?
02:48	rurumate	nvm I found it in the cascalog-impatient wiki
03:28	blur3d	is there a version of deref that evals the function if it is not a delay, or derefs it? something like
03:28	blur3d	(defn do-deref [r]
03:28	blur3d	(if (delay? r)
03:28	blur3d	@r
03:28	blur3d	(r)))
03:50	noidi_	blur3d, AFAIK, you can implement IDeref if you want to create your own derefable objects https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/IDeref.java
03:51	TEttinger	blur3d, that function looks perfectly reasonable. I should probably learn more about delays
03:51	noidi_	,(let [x (reify clojure.lang.IDeref (deref [this] "lol"))] @x)
03:51	clojurebot	"lol"
03:53	noprompt	just wrote a wrapper around BreakIterator. bleh.
03:54	noprompt	first cut: https://www.refheap.com/22037
03:54	noprompt	bleh
03:59	noprompt	i'm probably never going to use it.
04:02	blur3d	noidi_ TEttinger:kk, cheers
04:07	dyreshark	can anyone recommend a solid, idiomatic clojure codebase to read?
04:09	vijaykiran	dyreshark: https://github.com/Datomic/codeq perhaps ?
04:09	TEttinger	dyreshark, I can't say much about how idiomatic it is, but lazybot is certainly fun to work with, and it uses a lot of clojure features (from the written-early parts of the language)
04:11	dyreshark	vijaykiran: TEttinger: cool, i'll look into them. thanks :)
04:12	sm0ke	any one tried vertx adapater for ring?
04:13	sm0ke	clojure seems to be lagging behind in http://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#section=data-r8&hw=i7&test=db
04:13	sm0ke	round 8 web framework benchmarks
04:14	sm0ke	also is there a grizzly ring adapter?
04:25	TheBusby	Any creative ways to produce a sorted-map which has random order? (just need to shuffle it once)
04:30	sm0ke	TheBusby: what do you mean by sorted-map with random orders?
04:32	clgv	TheBusby: sorted-map and random order sound pretty much mutually exclusive ;)
04:32	TheBusby	is sorted-map the only mechanism to create a map in one specific order?
04:32	TEttinger	sorted-map-by ?
04:32	TEttinger	,(doc sorted-map-by)
04:32	clojurebot	"([comparator & keyvals]); keyval => key val Returns a new sorted map with supplied mappings, using the supplied comparator. If any keys are equal, they are handled as if by repeated uses of assoc."
04:33	TheBusby	(sorted-map-by get-rand-boolean-value ...) ?
04:34	clgv	TheBusby: that might not work if you desire a uniform random distribution
04:34	TheBusby	that was my first though, then shuffle and array-map?
04:34	clgv	TheBusby: you could create a random permutation and use that for sorting
04:37	TheBusby	clgv: so shuffle the map, then turn it into an array-map to preserve the random ordering?
04:37	clgv	TheBusby: ##(let [m {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3 :d 4}, order (zipmap (keys m) (shuffle (range (count m))))] (into (sorted-map-by order) m))
04:37	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap cannot be cast to java.util.Comparator
04:38	clgv	ah damn comparator instead of attribute^^
04:39	TheBusby	,(apply array-map (flatten (shuffle (seq {1 1 2 2 3 3}))))
04:39	clojurebot	{2 2, 3 3, 1 1}
04:39	clgv	,(let [m {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3 :d 4}, order (zipmap (keys m) (shuffle (range (count m))))] (into (sorted-map-by #(< (order (key %1)) (order (key %2)))) m))
04:39	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry>
04:39	clgv	TheBusby: no. do not rely on the order of the arraymap since it is automatically converted to a persistenhashmap when growing beyond a certain size
04:40	TheBusby	clgv: excellent point, but hopefully I wont encounter that issue as I'm immediately converting the array-map to EDN, JSON, or XML
04:41	taruti	What is the right way to "pr" a byte-array so that it can be read back?
04:41	clgv	TheBusby: well, then just try. why do you need it to be ordered randomly then?
04:41	TEttinger	TheBusby, have you seen the lib Ordered?
04:42	TEttinger	https://github.com/flatland/ordered
04:42	TheBusby	clgv: hopefully to keep developers from depending on the order of fields. :)
04:42	TheBusby	TEttinger: no, looking now!
04:42	clgv	TheBusby: o_O
04:42	TEttinger	they might use some trick that you would find useful
04:43	TheBusby	TEttinger: would the advantage of order-map over array-map be the issue of assoc/dissoc that clgv mentioned?
04:43	TEttinger	ordered's maps are basically the same as Java's TreeMap s, just persistent?
04:44	TEttinger	no, http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/util/LinkedHashMap.html
04:45	TEttinger	I don't know why it needs to be random though
04:46	TheBusby	yeah... Just trying to make the dev API simulate all the different possible types of responses to break developer code before they release it.
04:46	TEttinger	if you just want to rearrange the order of fields to discourage wrong assumptions, ##(sorted-map-by (fn [l r] (- (rand-int 1000) 500)) :a 1 :b 2 :c 3) would work
04:46	lazybot	⇒ {:a 1, :b 2, :c 3}
04:46	TheBusby	changing field orders, JSON/XML encoding tricks, etc
04:46	TEttinger	pfft
04:46	TEttinger	##(sorted-map-by (fn [l r] (- (rand-int 1000) 500)) :a 1 :b 2 :c 3)
04:46	lazybot	⇒ {:b 2, :a 1, :c 3}
04:46	TEttinger	there we go
04:47	TheBusby	TEttinger: as clgv was good to point out though, that doesn't ensure an even distribution
04:47	TEttinger	but I don't think you need one
04:47	dav	did the algebraic data types code get lost when the contribs got split into several packages? (https://github.com/richhickey/clojure-contrib/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/contrib/types.clj)
04:48	clgv	TheBusby: I think your motivation for the whole taks is quite bizarre
04:48	clgv	$contrib
04:48	TEttinger	~contrib
04:48	clojurebot	Monolithic clojure.contrib has been split up in favor of smaller, actually-maintained libs. Transition notes here: http://dev.clojure.org/display/community/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
04:48	TheBusby	clgv: I found developers "grep'ing out" data from a JSON response already...
04:48	clgv	TheBusby: why is it your task to forbid that?
04:49	TheBusby	clgv: if we make changes in the future, it'll break their code
04:49	TheBusby	clgv: in a perfect world, they'd be responible for their own poorly implemented code; and yet 800 pound gorilla's...
04:49	clgv	TheBusby: but only because they use it wrongly. is it really your task to ensure they are doing it right?
04:50	clgv	if you start there you'll end up doing a lot of strange things to ensure they are using the service right
04:51	TheBusby	I used to feel the exact same way, now I'm willing to do a little effort if it'll head-off potential problems
04:53	TEttinger	you know... you could just reverse it at random
04:54	TheBusby	TEttinger: yep, that works too ;)
04:54	clgv	TheBusby: well just go with the array-map approach if you serialize it directly without modifications
04:55	TEttinger	##((rand-nth [identity reverse]) sorted-map :a 1 :b 2 :c 3))
04:55	lazybot	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (7) passed to: core$reverse
04:55	TheBusby	okay, thanks for the heads up about distribution and the pointer to ordered-map! ;)
04:55	TEttinger	##((rand-nth [identity reverse]) (sorted-map :a 1 :b 2 :c 3))
04:55	lazybot	⇒ {:a 1, :b 2, :c 3}
04:57	TEttinger	err no ##((rand-nth [reverse]) (sorted-map :a 1 :b 2 :c 3))
04:57	lazybot	⇒ ([:c 3] [:b 2] [:a 1])
04:58	TEttinger	apparently reverse and rseq will both return a seq not a sorted-map
05:00	sm0ke	i have (defn ring-handler [] (handler/site #'myroutes)) in my code which i add to project.clj :ring {:handler myns/ring-handler}
05:00	sm0ke	but i seem to be getting clojure.lang.ArityException
05:00	sm0ke	for every route i try
05:01	sm0ke	wtf is this
05:02	TEttinger	arity exceptions are just you passed the wrong number of args to some fn
05:02	TEttinger	does it give a line number?
05:02	broquaint	sm0ke: I think you want def rather than defn there.
05:03	sm0ke	broquaint: just tried that to no use
05:03	TEttinger	and of course you'd take out the [] for def
05:04	clgv	gists with code and stacktraces for the win ;)
05:04	sm0ke	TEttinger: hehe :P
05:05	sm0ke	forgot to take out the []
05:07	sm0ke	where do i specify these options? https://github.com/weavejester/lein-ring#web-server-options
05:08	mercwithamouth	anyone here have any medium sized projects that use enfocus?
05:08	clgv	mercwithamouth: better ask your question directly^^
05:08	bvdeenen	hi all, I'm looking for a way to limit the number of digits of a float that's shown in the repl. Any tips ?
05:08	sm0ke	fuck i never knew lein ring server is so awesome for development!
05:08	sm0ke	it has hot swap
05:09	mercwithamouth	clgv: no question...i just wanted to look over someones project to see how they structure their code =P
05:09	clgv	bvdeenen: you probably have to overide print-method for floats
05:09	TEttinger	there's a way, let me check
05:09	clgv	bvdeenen: or if you explicitely output them you can use `format`
05:09	mercwithamouth	sm0ke: hah i didn't know it allowed hot swapping either. c00l beanz
05:10	bvdeenen	no,no, it's just for during development of a function
05:10	bvdeenen	I know about format
05:11	TEttinger	there's http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/with-precision
05:11	TEttinger	but that's for BigDecimals
05:12	bvdeenen	yeah, I found that already. I am developing some math functions that return float sequences, and my screen just fills up like mad
05:12	TEttinger	floats shouldn't be very long, hm?
05:13	bvdeenen	So it would be nice if I could just limit the number of digits the repl shows. I guess I'll go have a look at overloading core/print-method
05:13	bvdeenen	Well each float is about 15 characters, and my function returns a vector of 50 :-)
05:13	bvdeenen	Oh worse, 50 vectors of 3 floats
05:14	bvdeenen	Anyway, I'll check on print-method, thanks for thinking along....
05:14	TEttinger	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/print-length ?
05:14	TEttinger	that's what clojurebot uses
05:14	TEttinger	,(repeat 7)
05:14	clojurebot	(7 7 7 7 7 ...)
05:15	bvdeenen	yep that works, it helps.
05:17	bvdeenen	I'll see if I can add this to clojure.core/print-method, maybe even suggest it as a patch, with a print-round global
05:17	clgv	bvdeenen: you can just set print-length and print-level in your REPL
05:18	clgv	bvdeenen: print-method would be only for using format to limit the decimal places shown
05:19	bvdeenen	Yep, I'm using print-length now, that helps, but I still like the idea of having a global rounding constant for floats in the repl
05:19	clgv	bvdeenen: that's the approach I meant (defmethod print-method Float [v ^java.io.Writer w] (.write w (format "%.3f" v)))
05:19	clgv	similar for Double
05:20	bvdeenen	Cool! thanks for the tip
05:20	clgv	bvdeenen: you could also use a dynamic variable for the number of decimal places there
05:21	bvdeenen	He dude, you just created my patch! Just add it to clojure.core please, and everone is happy... :-)
05:21	clgv	bvdeenen: no certainly not. since this influences text serialization ;)
05:22	bvdeenen	oh :-(
05:22	clgv	pr-str and such use print-method as well
05:24	bvdeenen	That's too cool, it works, ok now I'll try to figure out how it works, because I'm new to clojure
05:25	seriously_random	is there tuple assignment like in python?
05:25	clgv	seriously_random: Clojure has destructuring if that is what you mean
05:26	dav	Is there no decent algebraic data type library for clojure?
05:26	clgv	,(let [[a b c] (range)] [c a b])
05:26	clojurebot	[2 0 1]
05:27	clgv	dav: what do you want to do?
05:28	dav	clgv: pattern matching on algebraic data types
05:29	dav	clgv: as done here: https://code.google.com/p/clojure-contrib/source/browse/trunk/src/clojure/contrib/types/examples.clj?spec=svn596&r=596
05:29	dav	clgv: except clojure-contrib was disbanded and it seems to me that this code is gone
05:29	clgv	dav: there is core.match for pattern matching
05:29	dav	clgv: it seems to pattern match values.. that's not very interesting
05:30	dav	clgv: I'd want to pattern match type constructors
05:31	dav	I guess I can probably reproduce the functionality with map matching
05:45	broquaint	There's a subtlety here I'm not appreciating and could do with some enlightenment - https://gist.github.com/broquaint/8037288
05:53	broquaint	Oh I think it's the REPL not knowing how to stringify it.
05:54	seriously_random	how to write the following for loop in clojure: http://pastebin.com/1WcjHa90
05:55	sm0ke	broquaint: thats weird there is a default toString for EVERY Object in java which prints the object reference
05:57	sm0ke	broquaint: working with java apis which do not have Builder patterns is ugly in clojure
05:58	sm0ke	as a sidenote
06:04	broquaint	Duly noted, sm0ke :)
06:09	daGrevis	did I do this koan correctly? "One function can beget another"
06:09	daGrevis	(= 9 (((fn [] #(+ %1 %2))) 4 5))
06:09	daGrevis	yodas?
06:20	clgv	daGrevis: what is filled in? otherwise I'd say (= 9 (+4 5)) is simpler ;)
06:21	daGrevis	clgv, it would be simpler, but I would count is as cheating
06:22	clgv	daGrevis: why?
06:22	daGrevis	beacuse u r just ignoring 4 5 that are passed to the function as arguments
06:22	daGrevis	elegant cheating :P
06:22	clgv	daGrevis: I dont know what the exakt exercise is. no + does not ignore 4 5 ;)
06:22	daGrevis	clgv, can you show me full example of your code?
06:23	clgv	as said above, I have no clue what part of the expression is fixed and where exactly you need to fill in something
06:23	uday	Hi, We are using core.match for pattern matching. And we want to match a set instead of a vector or sequence like this [([1 2 3 4] :set)]. Can you someone suggest us how we can implement our own matchers like this?
06:24	clgv	uday: in case you get no answer very soon, try to ask dnolen in several hours
06:26	daGrevis	clgv, https://github.com/functional-koans/clojure-koans/blob/master/src/koans/06_functions.clj#L26
06:26	daGrevis	you need to fill ___
06:26	uday	clgv: Sure. Thanks
06:26	daGrevis	you could just fill it with 9 and it will pass
06:26	clgv	daGrevis: ok then I'd use (= 9 (((fn [] +)) 4 5))
06:27	clgv	daGrevis: no you couldnt
06:27	daGrevis	:/
06:27	clgv	,(= 9 (((fn [] 9)) 4 5))
06:27	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
06:27	clgv	see ;)
06:27	clgv	,(= 9 (((fn [] +)) 4 5))
06:27	clojurebot	true
06:28	daGrevis	clojurebot, ye, cool
06:28	clojurebot	I don't understand.
06:28	daGrevis	whoops
06:28	daGrevis	i got to ask, why 9 doesn't work?
06:29	daGrevis	, (= 9 (((fn [] 9)) 4 5))
06:29	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
06:29	clgv	because 9 ist not a function but it called as one
06:29	clgv	,(= 9 (((fn [] (constantly 9))) 4 5))
06:29	clojurebot	true
06:29	daGrevis	clgv, is + a function?
06:29	clgv	;)
06:29	clgv	yes
06:29	daGrevis	, (= 9 (((fn [] '9)) 4 5))
06:29	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
06:29	clgv	+ is a symbol which is resolved to the function that adds numbers ;)
06:29	daGrevis	for something sake ;D
06:30	clgv	daGrevis: using (constantly 9) works in that case since it creates a function that always returns 9
06:30	daGrevis	clgv, why doesn't '9 work?
06:30	clgv	daGrevis: it is no function
06:30	clgv	,(type '9)
06:30	clojurebot	java.lang.Long
06:31	daGrevis	i thought ' had a special meaning
06:31	clgv	daGrevis: yeah, it is a shortcut for (quote ...)
06:31	daGrevis	, (= 9 (((fn [] '9)) 4 5))
06:31	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
06:31	daGrevis	whoops
06:31	clgv	but that does not create functions ;)
06:31	daGrevis	ok, til and gotta learn a lot more
06:31	daGrevis	thanks :)
06:33	clgv	daGrevis: you got a book or know about clojure-doc.org?
06:33	daGrevis	clgv, currently im walking throught the koan
06:34	daGrevis	i have some knowledge in programming ;)
06:34	daGrevis	python, a bit of haskell
06:34	daGrevis	gotta get book! \o/
06:34	clgv	daGrevis: reading about the concepts of the language will speed up your progress ;)
06:35	daGrevis	clgv, any suggestions?
06:35	daGrevis	i mean, for book
06:35	clgv	daGrevis: "Clojure Programming" is quite recent. I read a few chapters of it which were well written
07:08	casperc	s
07:23	seriously_random	from index 1 to 2 in '(1 2 3 4 5) => (2 3) - how?
07:25	daGrevis	clgv, thanks for book suggestion ;)
07:26	clgv	seriously_random: ##(->> (range 1 6) (drop 1) (take 2)
07:27	clgv	ups
07:27	clgv	,(->> (range 1 6) (drop 1) (take 2))
07:27	clojurebot	(2 3)
07:44	seriously_random	I don't want to sound intrusive, but could someone show something like this: http://pastebin.com/1WcjHa90 is done in clojure
07:47	seriously_random	I guess I could use destructure, "let [[a b c] '(1 2 3)]". But that will only work if sequence is fixed size
07:48	jballanc	seriously_random: in your pastebin you say "hashset", but sets are inherantly unordered
07:48	jballanc	did you mean a seq or vec?
07:49	seriously_random	hashset is original input, I guess I convert it to sequence first
07:49	seriously_random	skipping words, not a good sign :)
07:50	jballanc	so, yeah, you could make it a seq
07:50	jballanc	'(seq #{1 2 3 4})
07:50	jballanc	whoops
07:50	jballanc	,(seq #{1 2 3 4})
07:50	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4)
07:50	clgv	seriously_random: since it is swapping back and forth there is no clear functional result. is it only supposed to do the printing side effect?
07:50	jballanc	but if you want to swap, you probably want a vec
07:51	seriously_random	would vec simplify the task?
07:51	clgv	seriously_random: what is the task? printing the original sequences with the 3 swaps?
07:52	seriously_random	clgv, 1234, 2134, 3214, etc (swapping with index 0)
07:54	clgv	,(let [v [1 2 3 4]] (dotimes [i 3] (let [i (inc i)] (println (assoc v 0 (v i) i (v 0))))))
07:54	clojurebot	[2 1 3 4]\n[3 2 1 4]\n[4 2 3 1]\n
07:54	jballanc	heh...I would've used a for comprehension
07:55	jballanc	saves a form
07:55	seriously_random	why can't it be something simple, like a, b = b, a in python?
07:55	jballanc	because vectors (and seqs and hashes and sets) in Clojure are immutable
07:55	clgv	seriously_random: persistent data structures, that's why
07:56	clgv	this is you a,b = b,a => (assoc v 0 (v i) i (v 0)))
07:57	clgv	you could write a separate swap function if it's worth it
07:58	jballanc	actually, since you're only printing the vectors there's not even any need to really do the assoc
08:00	clgv	jballanc: well it is the simplest. traversing the vetor needs more code ;)
08:00	clgv	and closer to the semantic in the pseudocode
08:04	jballanc	eh, I guess...
08:05	jballanc	the pseudocode doesn't really fit with a functional design, though
08:05	seriously_random	here is the actual "pseudocode": http://helloacm.com/a-recursive-full-permutation-in-python/
08:11	clgv	jballanc: thats right. but we could approximate it with `dotimes` in idiomatic clojure ;)
08:12	jballanc	you can do a lot of ugly stuff in clojure :)
08:12	clgv	seriously_random: well there is at least one existing implementation for a lazy sequence of all permutations of a given length...
08:13	clgv	it was in the old contrib libs
08:13	jballanc	seriously_random: the article you linked, though, is doing something different than your pastebin
08:14	jballanc	you were just permuting two positions, but the article you link is doing a full permutation
08:14	jballanc	that should actually be much easier/clearer to do (recursively, as the article suggests) in clojure
08:17	seriously_random	jballanc, I was aware of not doing a full perm. set. It was more like a practice before the real deal.
08:17	jballanc	well, in this particular case, I think you've made the problem harder by not tackling the whole thing at once
08:18	jballanc	with clojure (and functional programming in general) it's much better to sit and think about the whole problem than to try and piecemeal it together
08:19	seriously_random	or you could argue that starting from something will lead to some kind of understanding of what it is that you are doing
08:20	jballanc	yeah, but because of clojure's immutable data structures you're going to have a much harder time implementing the half-solution
08:25	clgv	jballanc: I think building solutions to problems bottom-up is pretty normal in Clojure due to the testing abilities in the REPL. but you need to think about howto structure the implementation it the needed functions
08:32	seriously_random	jballanc, http://pastebin.com/wpLWgzF5 - doesn't seem to do the same thing
08:34	seriously_random	one mistake is at dotimes (range)
08:34	clgv	seriously_random: yeah the mistake is that you wanted side-effect only code before and now you want a return value ;)
08:36	mdrogalis	Morning.
08:47	seriously_random	clgv, know anything about for and how println behaves? http://pastebin.com/x0fCMMT2
08:49	stuartsierra	clojurebot: for?
08:49	clojurebot	for is a loop...in Java
08:56	seriously_random	how to avoid deep nesting? http://pastebin.com/5cP2VQ7i
08:57	xsyn	I all
08:57	xsyn	I'm busy playing with incanter
08:58	xsyn	and I want to do an intersaection on the two lazy-seqs I've got
08:58	xsyn	but I can't convert them into sets
08:58	xsyn	how do I find the values that each lazy-seq has easily
09:03	silasdavis	any recommendations for load testing in clojure?
09:05	fredyr	xsyn: do you need to keep dups, or why not convert to set?
09:05	xsyn	just worked that out
09:05	xsyn	thanks
09:05	xsyn	(set (doall (lazy-seq))
09:13	clgv	xsyn: just (set your-lazy-seq) should work as well
09:14	jonasen	Bronsa: ping
09:14	jonasen	Bronsa: https://github.com/clojure/tools.analyzer/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/tools/analyzer/utils.clj#L85
09:15	jonasen	Bronsa: that call to 'var?' makes tools.analyzer much less platform agnostic. Is it necessary?
09:21	Bronsa	jonasen: I know, that's something I need to fix before the first release
09:23	jonasen	Bronsa: ok, it's not a real big problem, the ast is returned as ':op :maybe-class' and I can write my own resolve-var pass
09:25	Bronsa	jonasen: FWIW resolve-var will be a dynamic var like create-var. I don't think there's any other option to support arbitrary representation in the ns map
09:28	jonasen	Bronsa: yes, that's probably true. There are a few other places in analyzer.utils where you're using 'var?'. Not sure if that's a problem
09:30	Bronsa	jonasen: no, I don't think those other places will be a problem
09:58	sw1nn	hiredman: Hi, I set up an instance of clojurebot for #ldnclj, but I just noticed that there's some code to invite the clojurebot from here into that channel. Is that something that might be possible?
10:11	romain_p_	Hi everyone, could somebody tell me what is wrong with http://pastebin.com/PkR7P6Rk
10:12	romain_p_	Specifically, I get an error "<! used not in go block"
10:12	clojurebot	Excuse me?
10:14	fredyr	are there any clojurescript alternatives similar to Backbone models?
10:17	jjl`_	what things have metadata attached by default?
10:18	tbaldrid_	romain_p_: not sure, did you :require <! from cljs.core.async?
10:18	tbaldrid_	and are you importing macros from cljs.core.async.macros?
10:18	`cbp	vars have metadata by default i guess?
10:18	`cbp	this sounds like some interview question
10:19	jjl`_	heh, i actually do have a use for this information
10:20	`cbp	things that start with def put metadata on the vars, at the very least things like ns, line, file, etc
10:20	pepijndevos	hiring people in usefull
10:21	jjl`_	`cbp: that's what i thought, but i've just defined a function with defn in a lein repl and (meta myfn) returns nil
10:21	`cbp	(meta #'myfn)
10:21	`cbp	on the var not the function
10:21	jjl`_	aha
10:22	romain_p_	tbaldridge: I am using (require [cljs.core.async :refer [<! >! chan go])
10:23	tbaldridge	romain_p_: remove the go symbol and do this for go instead:
10:23	tbaldridge	(:require-macros [cljs.core.async.macros :refer [go]])
10:23	romain_p_	tbaldridge: OK, thanks!
10:23	tbaldridge	romain_p_: in CLJS you have to pull in macros via reqire-macros.
10:23	romain_p_	I was confused about that one
10:23	tbaldridge	*require-macros
10:24	romain_p_	tbaldridge: although it would be nice if the compiler complained, but I guess it cannot be done in such a dynamic language
10:25	pepijndevos	is there a reason for that other than noone bothered reimplementing the macro system?
10:29	stuartsierra	It's more complicated than that.
10:31	stuartsierra	The Clojure compiler is partially implemented in Clojure. Macros are part of that.
10:31	stuartsierra	The ClojureScript compiler is also implemented in Clojure.
10:31	stuartsierra	Macros are a compiler feature that also require the full language runtime.
10:32	stuartsierra	In ClojureScript, the language runtime (JavaScript) and the compiler (Clojure / JVM) are separate.
10:33	tbaldridge	My only complaint is that go doesn't exist inside cljs.core.async. So I would expect CLJS to at least warn about that.
10:34	stuartsierra	I think there's a CLJS compiler option for warnings like that.
11:08	dnolen	tbaldridge: romain_p_: there is new sugar now, if you give your macro file the same name as the CLJS file barring extension, :include-macros true works
11:08	dnolen	also (:require [foo.bar :as bar :refer-macros [woz]])
11:11	lpetit	cemerick: hello
11:11	cemerick	lpetit: hi! :-)
11:12	lpetit	What's up ?
11:12	cemerick	lpetit: not much / a lot, depending. :-)
11:12	lpetit	he
11:30	zerokarmaleft	I'm getting a weird var resolution error, despite it clearly being interned => https://gist.github.com/zerokarmaleft/8042030
11:37	andyf	only on that symbol?
11:40	zerokarmaleft	andyf: afaict, yes
11:40	andyf	And repeatably with a new JVM?
11:42	zerokarmaleft	andyf: my bad, get-all-bids and delete-bid also fail to resolve, get-bid resolves but is unbound
11:43	zerokarmaleft	andyf: yea, just tried with a fresh repl
11:44	andyf	no errors when loading the namespace?
11:45	zerokarmaleft	namespace loads fine
11:46	rukor	zerokarmaleft: out of curiosity, do you justify your namespace declarations by hand or some Emacs magic.
11:47	zerokarmaleft	rukor: a little of column A and a little of column B, but that's mostly enabled by M-x align-regexp
11:50	zerokarmaleft	I wonder if this is some cider/nrepl funkiness
11:51	andyf	worth trying outside on a plain terminal REPL to check, if that isn't too much trouble.
11:51	rukor	Zerokarmaleft: i see, thanks. I also see some docstrings justified. Any ideas on how to achieve that?
11:53	zerokarmaleft	rukor: that's part of clojure-mode, I believe...clojure-fill-docstring
11:57	rukor	Aha, thanks. Perfect. Ive always disliked the default fill mode for docstrings. Thanks
11:57	zerokarmaleft	andyf: same thing
11:57	zerokarmaleft	rukor: np
11:58	andyf	zerokarmaleft: I wish I had something more useful to suggest, but I'm not coming up with anything.
11:58	zerokarmaleft	it's bizarre
11:58	zerokarmaleft	eval'ing directly in the repl creates a working binding
11:59	andyf	does defentity define any other symbols with the substring "bids", like "get-bids", as part of its effect?
11:59	zerokarmaleft	hmm, good question...checking korma docs
12:02	hiredman	zerokarmaleft: that form-init bit in a temp file name is something lein does when first launching a project repl, getting it at the repl like that is very weird, what does your project.clj look like?
12:02	zerokarmaleft	andyf: looks like it just creates a map and binds "bids" to it
12:03	hiredman	zerokarmaleft: what repl are you using?
12:04	zerokarmaleft	hiredman: https://github.com/codesy/patronage/blob/master/project.clj
12:05	zerokarmaleft	hiredman: cider/nrepl
12:08	hiredman	zerokarmaleft: what happens if you remove the init-ns stuff and try to compile the file in a fresh repl?
12:09	zerokarmaleft	hiredman: same error, get-bid-command doesn't resolve when compiling get-bid
12:11	hiredman	zerokarmaleft: I don't think you can use declare like that for defentity, but I don't see how you would get the error you say you are getting from that
12:11	sw1nn	hiredman: did you catch my clojurebot question earlier? basically - can we invite ClojureBot into #ldnclj?
12:11	gfredericks	\j #ldnclj
12:11	gfredericks	slash directions
12:13	hiredman	sw1nn: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Internet_Relay_Chat_commands#INVITE might work
12:14	hiredman	zerokarmaleft: maybe you can use declare like that, it does like korma's macros explicitly var the names
12:15	sw1nn	hiredman: I tried it after looking at the code, but there's a flag :on-invite which may not be set?
12:15	hiredman	zerokarmaleft: what happens if you run java -classpath `lein classpath` clojure.main, then require your namespace?
12:16	zerokarmaleft	hiredman: same error
12:16	hiredman	sw1nn: ah, well
12:17	hiredman	zerokarmaleft: unlikely, given as I said the form-init bit is lein specific
12:17	zerokarmaleft	hiredman: the context is the actual source file instead of a temp file
12:17	zerokarmaleft	but it's the same var resolution error
12:22	zerokarmaleft	andyf, hiredman: gotta come back to this later, thanks for the suggestions
12:24	hiredman	zerokarmaleft: looking at the code in the patronage repo, there is no get-bid-command in that file
12:26	hiredman	zerokarmaleft: you have an extra m in your defn
12:31	dnolen	ok so in Om if we decomplect the data path and the render path we can have Datomic style queries to compute children instead of having to write silly functional code for it
12:38	pepijndevos	dnolen, whats Om?
12:39	dnolen	pepijndevos: https://github.com/swannodette/om
12:39	tbaldridge	dnolen: pedestal has a 120 line datalog engine you could also snag. or do the queries in core.logic.
12:39	pepijndevos	ah
12:39	dnolen	tbaldridge: excellent
12:40	tbaldridge	dnolen: it's super basic, but it works almost exactly like datomic's q fn https://github.com/pedestal/pedestal/blob/master/app/src/io/pedestal/app/query.clj
12:41	dnolen	tbaldridge: excellent I just want something simple
12:41	dnolen	tbaldridge: this won't be a bottleneck at all, and people will be able to write beautiful queries instead of writing the same tedious map filter reduce ops over and over again.
12:42	tbaldridge	dnolen: nice.
12:43	pepijndevos	uuh, looking at react now. it has embedded xml!?
12:43	dnolen	pepijndevos: HTML, and it's optional
12:44	pepijndevos	I see... weird
12:44	dnolen	pepijndevos: the website isn't very informative, what is awesome about React is the virtual DOM diffing and the event simulation
12:44	dnolen	which is what most of the React code is actually about
12:44	cark	dnolen : so Om redraws everything when there's a change in the "dom" ?
12:44	dnolen	cark: no
12:44	dnolen	cark: Om doesn't do any rendering, React does it will only update what actually changed
12:45	cark	dnolen: ah ok
12:45	pepijndevos	:include-macros true? hmmm
12:45	dnolen	cark: however Om can drive the React lazy diffing process from the root very efficiently because our data is immutable.
12:46	cark	i'm not familiar with react, maybe i should have a look to it
12:47	kmicu	dnolen: Can you estimate how much work is needed for GClosure Adv. Comp. Friendly React.js ?
12:47	dnolen	kmicu: no idea but I don't really care about that.
12:47	dnolen	kmicu: linking to a CDN for dev and :preamble for production works fine
12:48	dnolen	cark: I've got a post coming out later today with lots of details
12:48	kmicu	Finally.
12:48	kmicu	:)
12:48	dnolen	cark: CLJ/CLJS will get it immediately.
12:48	dnolen	CLJ/CLJS users
12:49	scottj	Are there docs on #js for cljs?
12:49	cark	do you mean it will be included in with clojurescript ?
12:49	dnolen	scottj: not but it I don't see why there needs to be
12:49	dnolen	cark: no
12:49	dnolen	scottj: #js {} for objects #js [] for arrays, that's it
12:57	gfredericks	what does #js [{}] do?
12:57	dnolen	gfredericks: an array with a map in it
12:58	gfredericks	a js obj or a cljs map?
12:58	dnolen	gfredericks: the behavior of #js has been through quite a bit
12:58	dnolen	gfredericks: #js isn't magical
12:58	dnolen	s/through/thought through
12:58	gfredericks	dnolen: I'm just pointing out that it isn't obvious
12:59	dnolen	gfredericks: it is if you think about it
12:59	eggnoggin	it'd just return a js literal like [{}] tho right?
12:59	dnolen	eggnoggin: no, think about it some more
12:59	dnolen	and why that's a really bad idea
13:00	gfredericks	something being a bad idea doesn't mean it can be ruled out in the absence of documentation
13:01	eggnoggin	a clojure vector where the 0th elem is a clojure map coerced to js ... wouldn't that be the same as typing [{}] in the js repl?
13:01	dnolen	gfredericks: I think people will figure it out pretty quickly. It should be documented and anyone can do that.
13:01	eggnoggin	aaah
13:01	gfredericks	dnolen: okay, I thought you had said it shouldn't be documented; my mistake
13:01	eggnoggin	so you'd write #js [#js {}]
13:01	dnolen	gfredericks: far as I know hardly any of the tagged literal stuff in CLJS is documented at all
13:01	eggnoggin	is that?
13:01	dnolen	eggnoggin: yes
13:01	eggnoggin	but wouldn't #js [{}] recursively coerce down to the js literals?
13:02	dnolen	eggnoggin: absolutely not
13:02	CookedGryphon	in core.async, is it possible to do an alts style statement but where I'm waiting on events in from one channel, or the capability to push an event to another channel?
13:02	tbaldridge	CookedGryphon: yep, look at the docs to alt! you can mix and match
13:02	tbaldridge	http://clojure.github.io/core.async/#clojure.core.async/alt!
13:03	tbaldridge	also: http://clojure.github.io/core.async/#clojure.core.async/alts!
13:03	CookedGryphon	tbaldridge: ah, I've only ever used alts!, I couldn't work out what the docstring for alt! was going on about
13:06	CookedGryphon	okay, I think I get what's going on...
13:06	justin_smith	I think alt! is like the equivalent of (let [chan val] (alts! [chan1 chan2 chanN]) (case chan ...)) -> (alt! chan1 ... chan2 ...)
13:16	noprompt	bitemyapp: omfg
13:32	jcromartie	so, I had previously had a nice prevalent system design going on, but now I have a requirement to have load balancing between two servers
13:33	jcromartie	now, there is no actual need to balance the load, but they want failover between VM instances in case one goes down
13:34	eggnoggin	jcromartie: are both of your apps stateless between requests? just use a reverse proxy
13:36	jcromartie	No, since I use a event sourcing design with state in memory
13:36	jcromartie	I can just as easily move state outside
13:37	jcromartie	so long as transactions are still possible
13:37	jcromartie	that means MongoDB is right out
13:37	pepijndevos	what if the load balancer goes down...
13:37	justin_smith	avout can help - it defines refs / atoms that are transperently shared between instances
13:38	jcromartie	justin_smith: nice!
13:38	justin_smith	with standard atom / ref semantics
13:39	justin_smith	depending how you were storing state that can make any changes to go from single instance with in-memory state to cluster a very smooth transition
13:39	jcromartie	it might be a little tricky if the different front ends have different versions of the app though
13:39	justin_smith	though it provides an incentive to make more small atoms/refs with separate parts of state, instead of one big one
13:40	jcromartie	yeah I am using a ref for state with an agent to write events right now
13:40	pepijndevos	how does it perform?
13:40	pepijndevos	avout
13:40	justin_smith	I haven't used in in production yet
13:40	justin_smith	it can be backed by zookeeper
13:40	justin_smith	which is designed for low latency
13:41	justin_smith	but I should really load-test it
13:41	jcromartie	this might really be overkill though
13:42	pepijndevos	if you kill a fly with a shotgun, it still dies...
13:42	clojurebot	No entiendo
13:45	danielszmulewicz	whois gf3
13:45	danielszmulewicz	sorry
13:45	justin_smith	avout is pretty lightweight - it is basically a keystore/message queue attached to standard clojure mutation protocols
13:46	WWWest	Hi
13:46	WWWest	I just updated to clojurescript "0.0-2120", now my project takes ~15secs instead of 4 on every change with lein cljsbuild auto
13:46	WWWest	is this normal?
13:49	danielszmulewicz	WWWest: most certainly not
13:49	WWWest	I also added core.async
13:49	tbaldridge	justin_smith: avout also has some fairly bad flaws
13:50	danielszmulewicz	WWWest: Each version bump is supposed to bring performance improvement, if not, it might be a regression.
13:50	WWWest	but I have 2 go's and 3 >!, <!
13:50	tbaldridge	justin_smith: https://github.com/liebke/avout/issues/1
13:51	justin_smith	ouch
13:51	jcromartie	tbaldridge: that's quite an issue, #1 from a year ago, still open?
13:51	justin_smith	luckily I am not counting on watches
13:52	mdrogalis	Avout not allowing you to read-every-write has burned me.
13:53	mdrogalis	Yeah, the ZK-watch thing.
13:53	pepijndevos	It seems to be a "feature"
13:53	tbaldridge	yeah, the lib is based on some flawed views of ZK and as such has basically been discontinued.
13:53	justin_smith	it looks like that is a limitation of the underlying zookeeper
13:53	mdrogalis	So I don't know if ZK itself considers them flaws.
13:54	justin_smith	flawed views as in the implementors do not understand zookeeper sufficiently? or the premise of the lib is based on a flawed understanding of zookeeper
13:54	tbaldridge	The problem is that ZK detaches watchers after each change. So if you attach a watch, then read the value then re-attach the watch you have a race condition.
13:54	mdrogalis	The ZK docs say that "it's just something you need to account for."
13:56	patchwork	The issue is that zookeeper behavior does not map to clojure watches
13:56	patchwork	So you can't expect watches on avout refs to have the same behavior as watches on regular clojure refs
13:56	pepijndevos	fu, distributed systems...
13:57	mdrogalis	Has anyone used something like ZK that doesn't have that oddity?
13:57	tbaldridge	eh, just use locks/transactions inside a machine and use other systems (message passing) outside machines.
13:57	patchwork	Leaky abstractions, yadda yadda
13:57	mdrogalis	Easier said than done, tbaldridge. At least I think so.
13:58	tbaldridge	true, it takes rethinking about your problem. But that's better than trying to get a distributed lock to work.
13:58	patchwork	So, avout is good for distributed state, but not message passing?
13:59	mdrogalis	patchwork: It's not so good for observing every change to a piece of state.
13:59	tbaldridge	I wouldn't use it for anything to be honest. It's been like 2 years since any updates were made to it.
13:59	mdrogalis	In fact - it can't.
13:59	patchwork	It seems if you want to see every change, you really want a message passing system
13:59	mdrogalis	Yeah.
13:59	patchwork	tbaldridge: So what about zookeeper in general then?
13:59	mdrogalis	I mean, it's emphemeral node feature is pretty great.
14:00	patchwork	Is avout just a bad abstraction over a good library, or is ZK itself basically flawed?
14:00	tbaldridge	No, ZK is fine for stuff like configs. I just have an issue with storing anything else in it. I wouldn't try to go and keep my application state in ZK.
14:00	patchwork	As in, maybe we need a different clojure library for zookeeper then?
14:00	tbaldridge	Now perhaps I'd keep a uuid in ZK that pointed to a datastructure on disk somewhere.
14:01	tbaldridge	I've used this: https://github.com/liebke/zookeeper-clj
14:02	tbaldridge	it works "okay" a bit temperamental. But it works fine for storing configs
14:02	patchwork	last modified 2 years ago as well!
14:02	tbaldridge	yeah
14:02	patchwork	same guy too right?
14:02	patchwork	Interesting
14:02	tbaldridge	It all depends what you're wanting to do with it.
14:03	mdrogalis	Yeah, agreed.
14:06	mdrogalis	tbaldridge: What else would you recommend if you needed CAS but didnt want ZK?
14:07	tbaldridge	ZK is fine for CAS or configs. I'm just saying I wouldn't recommend storing tons of state in ZK. Which Avout seems to be about (e.g. mapping refs to ZK).
14:08	mdrogalis	tbaldridge: Yeah, true.
14:08	mdrogalis	Ah, right. There was a list in that ACID article about which storage engines supported CAS.
14:08	mdrogalis	More than I expected
14:09	stuartsierra	The Java ZooKeeper API isn't difficult.
14:09	dnolen	Om post is up feel free to give it some HN love - https://news.ycombinator.com/newest
14:09	jcromartie	distributing state just sounds like a bad idea to me
14:09	jcromartie	so querying the db it is
14:09	dnolen	also the React 0.8 is worth upvoting they've been super nice
14:10	mdrogalis	stuartsierra: Agreed.
14:10	noncom	keywordize-keys works fine on multilevel maps, however, what if at some level there is a record and not a map? the keys do not get keywordied.. anyone knows a way around it?
14:12	stuartsierra	noncom: There's a patch already applied on Clojure 1.6 that lets `clojure.walk` support records.
14:13	noncom	stuartsierra: nice! but it is still in alpha.. maybe you could recommend a way to go then? :)
14:13	stuartsierra	copy-and-paste?
14:14	stuartsierra	It's open-source, after all.
14:14	noncom	cool! gonna do it right away!
14:15	stuartsierra	If you're interested, https://github.com/stuartsierra/clojure.walk2 is more thorough. I've also submitted that as a Clojure patch.
14:15	jcromartie	so I threw together a fun little thing that runs "tasks" with rollback
14:15	jcromartie	I am not sure I can open source it yet, gotta get that cleared up
14:15	jcromartie	but it's for doing things with side effects that may need to be rolled back
14:15	jcromartie	and it supports vectors and sets as shorthand for sequential and parallel groups of tasks
14:15	jcromartie	so you can say: (perform [a #{b c d} e]) which will perform a first, then b c and d in parallel, and then e
14:16	noncom	stuartsierra: thank you, I will looks into the sources
14:16	mikerod	stuartsierra: I'm a fan of walk2
14:17	jcromartie	and, if any of them fail, everything that was completed is rolled back, which for collections means calling rollback on each completed member task
14:17	yedi	dnolen: how dare you post your own blog post
14:17	noncom	mikerod: sounds promising :)
14:17	yedi	i wanted to reap the karma benefits
14:17	mikerod	The docs say "This repo is for demonstration only." in walk2
14:18	jcromartie	to define tasks that can roll back you can specify a map like {:up #() :down #()} or you can defrecord and implement perform/rollback
14:18	mikerod	However, I've had no issues and do not see any.
14:18	mikerod	You can even extend the protocol for Java-land Collections
14:20	noncom	mikerod: will it go to 1.6?
14:21	stuartsierra	The ticket is http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1239 if you want to keep track.
14:23	bitemyapp	MFW hoplon doesn't use leiningen.
14:24	bitemyapp	stuartsierra: is that RestFn patch going to get merged?
14:24	bitemyapp	the one Bloom was championing.
14:24	stuartsierra	bitemyapp: I don't know
14:24	mikerod	which patch is this?
14:24	noncom	yeah, i think it is a ery useful patch
14:25	noncom	s/ery/very
14:25	SegFaultAX	How useful? Ery useful.
14:25	bitemyapp	noprompt: I was thinking about data structures for frak.
14:25	bitemyapp	noprompt: ever done anything with finger trees or PATRICIA tries?
14:26	bitemyapp	or rather, for Frak++.hs
14:26	mikerod	noncom: What is the RestFn patch? Is there an issue related to it?
14:27	bitemyapp	noprompt: https://github.com/quchen/articles/blob/master/loeb-moeb.md
14:28	SegFaultAX	Speaking of finger trees... when will we be getting them in Clojure? :)
14:29	noncom	mikerod: i mean walk2. i do not know anything about RestFn... ?
14:29	stuartsierra	SegFaultAX: https://github.com/clojure/data.finger-tree
14:29	mikerod	oh :)
14:29	mikerod	yes, an ery useful patch indeed.
14:30	SegFaultAX	stuartsierra: Think it'll ever make it to core?
14:30	octagon	bitemyapp: you're right, hoplon doesn't use lein!
14:30	stuartsierra	SegFaultAX: Not unless something in core needs it. We want to make clojure.core smaller, not bigger.
14:31	bitemyapp	octagon: are you the proud author?
14:32	bitemyapp	SegFaultAX: finger trees are a bit tedious in a strict language.
14:32	bitemyapp	stuartsierra: is there a canonical post for ML functors in protocols? I have a utility bag that I'd like to publish for Datomic that would benefit from it.
14:32	octagon	bitemyapp: i'm Micha
14:32	stuartsierra	If anyone has a good benchmark that demonstrates a consistent, repeatable performance improvement from the patch on CLJ-1200, I would like to have it.
14:32	bitemyapp	octagon: I don't know who that is.
14:32	octagon	bitemyapp: i wrote it with alan dipert
14:33	octagon	bitemyapp: short answer: yes
14:33	octagon	bitemyapp: i still use leiningen too
14:33	jcromartie	I was accidentally running 2 instances of "yes > /dev/null &" which happens to be exactly how they used to recommend maxing out your MacBook and getting it super hot
14:33	bitemyapp	octagon: hot.
14:33	octagon	bitemyapp: leiningen just isn't good for some things
14:34	bitemyapp	octagon: by all means, explain.
14:34	octagon	bitemyapp: basically, the idea is that tasks could be middleware like in a ring app, instead of plugins, profiles, tasks, and middleware in lein
14:35	bitemyapp	octagon: leiningen has hooks for that.
14:35	octagon	bitemyapp: the priority is for boot tasks to be composable
14:35	octagon	bitemyapp: boot has only one "watch" task, for instance, that you can compose with any other task
14:35	bitemyapp	octagon: they're designed around the same principle.
14:35	bitemyapp	octagon: yes, you can do the same in Leiningen.
14:36	octagon	bitemyapp: we originally made a lein plugin, but it got unworkable pretty fast
14:36	octagon	bitemyapp: when it had to compose with lein-cljsbuild and various other things
14:37	bitemyapp	tbaldridge: the edn parsing situation is getting bad enough that we're considering layering an edn protocol on top of JSON.
14:38	bitemyapp	every little thing is breaking, none of the edn readers/parsers in Python are workable.
14:38	logic_prog	is there a way to write a websocket _client_ in clojure/java rather than cljs/javascript ?
14:38	logic_prog	I want to write a _client_ to stress test my websocket server
14:38	tbaldridge	bitemyapp: seems that a little time with pyparsing or parsley would get you want you want.
14:38	bitemyapp	logic_prog: yeah, although that'd be weird.
14:38	bitemyapp	tbaldridge: well, that "little time" is what already exists and those libraries are broken.
14:38	bitemyapp	tbaldridge: I've been incrementally fixing edn_format but I'm losing my patience with it.
14:38	jcromartie	logic_prog: you can open as many websockets as you want from JS
14:39	logic_prog	yeah, but I want to write my testing code in java
14:39	logic_prog	s/java/clojure
14:39	noncom	you can use a JS on JVM
14:39	noncom	:)
14:40	logic_prog	I would need JVM on JS
14:40	noncom	you could try using rhino or such..
14:40	noncom	yeah, i am mostly joking. it's just that i had the same request some time ago
14:40	bitemyapp	tbaldridge: the edn spec being wrong combined with the terrible, terrible libraries out there makes using Datomic outside of Clojure incredibly painful.
14:40	jcromartie	Jetty has a websocket client library
14:41	jcromartie	http://www.eclipse.org/jetty/documentation/current/jetty-websocket-client-api.html
14:41	bitemyapp	tbaldridge: we've lost a lot of hours to this already.
14:41	bitemyapp	but the edn spec errors really just digs the knife in.
14:41	jcromartie	logic_prog: I think that's your answer
14:41	jcromartie	include require org.eclipse.jetty.websocket/websocket-client in your dev dependencies and test away
14:41	cespare	Didn't nigel (or was it someone else?) send out a proposal for two-valued math functions (like quo, rem := n / d) a while ago?
14:41	logic_prog	jcromartie: very nice, thanks
14:42	cespare	I can't find the thread on golang-dev
14:42	tbaldridge	bitemyapp: that's the part that I'm wondering about. What spec errors are referring to? And if every single Python lib breaks, I'm wondering why.
14:42	bitemyapp	tbaldridge: the Python libs break because they're incredibly naive and untested. The edn spec is wrong about what's allowed in a symbol
14:43	bitemyapp	tbaldridge: and its over-restrictiveness relative to what Clojure actually allows in the implementation breaks code that we needed to actually use with Clojure/Datomic.
14:43	tbaldridge	what symbols are being sent from Datomic?
14:43	bitemyapp	I don't really have time for this right now
14:43	bitemyapp	if the divergence between the edn spec and what Clojure allows isn't disconcerting already, then you're not thinking ahead very far.
14:45	noprompt	garsh darn internet connection...
14:45	bitemyapp	noprompt: w/b
14:45	noprompt	bitemyapp: no sir, i can't say i have.
14:45	cespare	oops wrong chan, sorry
14:45	bitemyapp	noprompt: well I was just thinking about the data structures, tries vs. finger trees, that sort of thing - for Frak.
14:45	bitemyapp	noprompt: also I was pondering a reverse Frak.
14:45	jcromartie	are there really advantages to "lein ring server" vs just having a main namespace with a fn that starts your app?
14:45	tbaldridge	I'm just saying, we use stuff like ruby edn quite a lot and haven't had these issues, so I'm wondering what the difference is. For example, Diametric works great with the REST frontend.
14:45	jcromartie	I really don't like having a top-level handler
14:45	bitemyapp	jcromartie: no advantages, just more muggle compatible.
14:46	jcromartie	I see
14:46	jcromartie	I thought that might be the purpose
14:46	noprompt	bitemyapp: yeah i've been interested in that as well. ultimately it would be nice to write a regex parser or an api for constructing regex.
14:46	technomancy	jcromartie: I don't see the point either
14:48	noprompt	i discovered this week i'm going to be a father. looks like i'll be reading technomancy's blog more often.
14:48	bitemyapp	noprompt: wat.
14:48	technomancy	noprompt: oh nice; congrats.
14:48	bitemyapp	noprompt: congrats
14:48	TimMc	noprompt: !
14:49	noprompt	bitemyapp: yep. i mean unless something goes wrong.
14:50	TimMc	But chances are you'll have a Little Lisper in a couple years.
14:50	bitemyapp	Haskeller, if I have my way.
14:50	bitemyapp	porque no los dos is my motto though.
14:50	TimMc	"why not both"?
14:51	technomancy	noprompt: so far I've only done one "parenting" post, but I'm sure there will be more to come. =)
14:51	technomancy	you've got lots of time to prepare
14:51	TimMc	Anyway, very exciting.
14:51	technomancy	(not that you can actually ever be prepared for something like that)
14:52	bitemyapp	I mean, all you really have to do is not kill the kid.
14:52	bitemyapp	that's roughly the standard for perpetuation of the species so far.
14:52	noprompt	technomancy: haha, this is true. you know, when i discovered she was pregnant i flipped out internally. then i saw the ultrasound on tuesday and was happy for some odd reason.
14:52	arrdem	bitemyapp: good news, I'll be helping you lurk the channel more
14:52	technomancy	noprompt: yeah it's understandably gut-wrenching
14:52	jcromartie	"some odd reason" …
14:52	jcromartie	:P
14:52	arrdem	bitemyapp: bad news, my hardware startup shut down Q_Q
14:53	patchwork	noprompt: children rewire your brain. It is evolutionary.
14:53	dmpayton	noprompt: fwiw, not killing the kid is easier than it looks. kids are pretty resilient.
14:53	noprompt	bitemyapp: my dad applied similar logic when teaching me how to drive. "the goal is to get the wagon from point a to point b without wrecking."
14:53	bitemyapp	arrdem: :(
14:53	bitemyapp	arrdem: sorry to hear that!
14:54	koalallama	noprompt: congrats
14:54	bitemyapp	tbaldridge: most promising alternative to edn_format so far is the lispreader from clojure-py.
14:55	jcromartie	The whole "you don't understand until you have kids" thing is TOTALLY true. It's literally impossible to explain without experiencing it.
14:55	tbaldridge	bitemyapp: well, we accept patches send one over and I'll merge it.
14:55	tbaldridge	(inc jcromartie)
14:55	lazybot	⇒ 5
15:00	jcromartie	what's a good way to mock a service for tests that doesn't depend on dynamic bindings
15:00	jcromartie	aside from implementing the service with protocols+records
15:00	jcromartie	and I may have just answered my own question
15:01	stuartsierra	yes you did
15:01	danielszmulewicz	noprompt: Secretary and core.async is pretty neat: https://www.refheap.com/22046
15:01	noprompt	danielszmulewicz: it's fun stuff. gf3 deserves most of the credit though. :-)
15:03	noprompt	danielszmulewicz: it'd be great to have clout support cljs so there'd be one unified routing api story.
15:05	danielszmulewicz	noprompt: Is clout the thing that Compojure uses, or are they separate things?
15:07	noprompt	danielszmulewicz: yes. clout is what compojure uses for routing. i like it's design.
15:07	noprompt	danielszmulewicz: i also like the strait forward approach secretary takes too.
15:07	danielszmulewicz	noprompt: Right. +1 for a unified routing api story.
15:08	noprompt	danielszmulewicz: the neat idea is potentially being able to reuse routing code on both the server and the client.
15:13	akhudek	dnolen: your todo app has a bug, if you delete some items then try checking some boxes, the wrong boxes get checked
15:13	akhudek	dnolen: otherwise, very impressive!
15:14	danielszmulewicz	Is the todo app going to make it on the README?
15:14	danielszmulewicz	I mean on the main page of http://todomvc.com/ ?
15:15	danielszmulewicz	I see a "compile to javascript" section, but no link to Clojure-related technologies...
15:31	mikerod	I'v read through this https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure-dev/9JB-vKjvbhE and then saw hiredman had a gist @ https://gist.github.com/hiredman/921874 . I find this interesting and think I'm being bit by it.
15:32	mikerod	Is this expected behavior or a defect?
15:39	noprompt	technomancy: i've been thinking about creating a modifier key which, when held, would allow me to type numbers on the home row. :-_
15:39	noprompt	:-)
15:39	noprompt	the key travel to the actual number keys is too far.
16:06	technomancy	jcromartie: with-redefs doesn't use dynamic bindings
16:06	jcromartie	technomancy: thanks
16:07	jcromartie	I already moved to a protocol though :)
16:07	technomancy	=(
16:07	jcromartie	why so sad?
16:07	jcromartie	you're one of those "just use a map" purists?
16:07	mikerod	,(eval (let [c (comp inc inc)] `(~c 1)))
16:08	clojurebot	#<ExceptionInInitializerError java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError>
16:08	mikerod	:(
16:08	technomancy	not a fan of using protocols for anything other than extreme perf requirements
16:08	mikerod	,(eval (let [c (comp inc inc)] (c 1)))
16:08	clojurebot	3
16:08	technomancy	mikerod: yeah, functions get stripped of unused environment
16:08	stuartsierra	with-redefs is still dynamic (time) scope.
16:08	jcromartie	technomancy: I think they also make sense when it comes to external services, where a mock is truly useful sometimes
16:08	technomancy	otherwise you leak a lot
16:08	jcromartie	otherwise I prefer standard functions and data
16:09	jcromartie	what do you mean leak?
16:09	technomancy	jcromartie: as long as I don't have to maintain it
16:09	technomancy	jcromartie: Imean they'd have to carry around a bunch of unrelated junk
16:09	mikerod	technomancy: is there anywhere I could look to understand this more?
16:09	jcromartie	does with-redefs work across namespaces?
16:10	technomancy	jcromartie: sure
16:10	mikerod	I guess I have a fn being AOT compiled that closes over its environment during macroexpansion time
16:10	technomancy	mikerod: not aware of any docs on the subject. this channel is surely your best resource =)
16:10	mikerod	I struggle to see a workaround, I was relying on the closure over the surrounding env
16:11	mikerod	and AOT compilation is necessary
16:11	technomancy	you can get the closure via the implicit &env arg to macros, but not with functions
16:11	jcromartie	I see… with-redefs would likely fit the bill
16:11	technomancy	see my serializable-fn lib
16:11	jcromartie	I'll keep it in mind in the future
16:13	mikerod	technomancy: yes, I have seen the &env before hmm
16:14	mikerod	I'll bang my head against my desk on this one for a bit I guess. :)
16:14	jcromartie	but then again, with protocols I can have different implementations of the services at the same time, while with-redefs is messing with globals
16:14	jcromartie	and globals are bad no?
16:14	technomancy	vars are globals
16:15	technomancy	as long as the extent of the changes are limited they're certainly easier to follow than protocols
16:16	jcromartie	yes and changing them for short periods of time seems flaky :)
16:16	jcromartie	rather than treating them as permanent always-and-forever values
16:16	jcromartie	I prefer to think of top-level vars in namespaces as constants, with the option of temporary thread-local bindings. with-redefs seems like a pretty heavy hammer.
16:16	jcromartie	but it works for a unit test
16:16	zerokarmaleft	at what point does dynamic (time) scope become an issue for with-redefs?
16:17	jcromartie	if I was running my app from a REPL and I ran my unit tests (which used with-redefs for mocks) it would break the app while the test ran
16:17	technomancy	I haven't run into any problems with them in practice
16:17	jcromartie	which while not likely to cause real (as in production server) problems is not great
16:18	zerokarmaleft	hmm, I can't imagine that disrupting development workflow
16:18	jcromartie	I can imagine making a mess but I doubt it would really go bad :)
16:18	technomancy	I would take a bit of yuckiness in tests over making the implementation more complicated simply in order to make it testable any day
16:19	jcromartie	well, my implementation went from having a ns full of functions operating on a map, to a namespace full of functions operating on a record
16:19	jcromartie	and you create the record with a constructor function that takes a map
16:19	technomancy	reloading issues around records are super annoying to track down in repl driven dev
16:19	jcromartie	yes they are
16:19	jcromartie	that would be one thing
16:20	stuartsierra	tools.namespace fixes that
16:21	jcromartie	but then again if you are depending on with-redefs to mock external services then you have to mock everything that might be called by anything else, whereas providing a mock implementation as a record puts the mock in one tidy package
16:21	technomancy	even if you save of a record in a one-off def?
16:21	technomancy	I do that all the time
16:21	technomancy	*off
16:21	stuartsierra	don't do that :)
16:21	technomancy	jcromartie: fixtrues are just functions
16:21	devinus	is anybody here using OrientDB?
16:21	stuartsierra	but yes, it will lwork
16:21	technomancy	stuartsierra: no.
16:22	technomancy	jcromartie: speaking of "one tidy package" I mean
16:22	jcromartie	yes
16:22	technomancy	in fact quite a bit tidier since they are scoped to just the tests
16:23	jcromartie	so would a reified mock service
16:23	technomancy	but you've still changed the behaviour of your impl just to support your tests
16:25	logic_prog	dumbass question: what is the reason, in the context of cljs, why I have to define macros in .clj files and can't define them in .cljs files
16:27	dobry-den	Since Datomic isn't ideal for counters, what would be a simple way to keep track of viewcounts for posts in my database without bringing in something like a Redis dependency?
16:27	vijaykiran	osnr: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/18381052/why-clojurescript-macros-cant-be-written-in-clojurescript
16:27	vijaykiran	oops logic_prog ^^
16:27	logic_prog	vijaykiran: nice, thanks!
16:27	dobry-den	The simplest I could think of is an atom that stores a hash-map of post-ids and incs them. And this gets periodically serialized to viewcounts.edn
16:27	mikerod	technomancy: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11191992/functions-with-closures-and-eval-in-clojure
16:28	mikerod	turns out there was already a stack issue on it
16:28	dobry-den	(I guess I would use an agent, rather)
16:28	mikerod	that is comforting
16:28	technomancy	it's not really an eval issue
16:28	mikerod	mine isn't coming out of eval
16:28	technomancy	ah, right
16:29	mikerod	it is the results of a fn call that is called during macro-expansion
16:29	mikerod	so it is hidden and sneaky, IMO
16:29	mikerod	I'm not doing this weird eval-syntax-quote thing
16:29	technomancy	I think I misread your first question
16:30	mikerod	I have to AOT some Clojure code where a macro, at expansion time, calls a function that returns a map pointing to some anonymous functions that close over their environment
16:31	mikerod	eh map pointing is wrong, I mean map with anonymous functions as vals
16:41	jcromartie	somebody help me out… what's that macro that lets you define a name for the intermediate result of a bunch of forms?
16:41	Profpatsch	Does the repl display the output of called Java classes?
16:41	jcromartie	like (_ it …)
16:41	zerokarmaleft	jcromartie: as->?
16:42	jcromartie	as!
16:42	jcromartie	where is that?
16:42	technomancy	Profpatsch: if they print to an outputstream that the repl is hooked up to.
16:43	jcromartie	zerokarmaleft: that's not in core right?
16:43	jcromartie	hm, it is
16:43	technomancy	not sure which repls reset System/out for you
16:43	zerokarmaleft	jcromartie: i think so
16:43	Profpatsch	technomancy: stdout, stderr?
16:43	zerokarmaleft	jcromartie: rather, I think it is in core
16:43	jcromartie	I couldn't find it in clojuredocs or google
16:43	technomancy	Profpatsch: you can try writing to System/out to check for yourself
16:44	maravillas	it's newer than clojuredocs has
16:45	Profpatsch	technomancy: Nope, (.println System/out "foobar") does nothing.
16:45	Profpatsch	How to hook it up then?
16:45	technomancy	Profpatsch: technically it probably went somewhere you're just not looking
16:45	technomancy	there's something like a System/setOut maybe?
16:46	technomancy	been a while
16:46	Profpatsch	technomancy: Huh, aren’t you doing any Java interop?
16:46	technomancy	not doing much of anything these days
16:48	Profpatsch	Huh, too much maintaining leiningen?
16:48	technomancy	well, that sounds bad. I am not doing much clojure, but I am learning a hell of a lot.
16:49	technomancy	no, Leiningen is just really stable and mature
16:49	technomancy	https://github.com/heroku/logplex/pull/71 <- this whole week
16:50	technomancy	I am using records, and they are terrible!
16:50	technomancy	(erlang records, but still)
16:50	Profpatsch	Huh, Erlang. Not something you program everyday.
16:51	Profpatsch	Especially at work.
16:51	mikerod	technomancy: https://gist.github.com/mrrodriguez/8046814
16:51	mikerod	in case you had any interest, this is what I was eluding to
16:51	mikerod	just some dummy fn and macro combination to demonstrate
16:52	mikerod	I'm open to anyone else's insight on this issue as well :)
16:53	arubin	Interesting. IRCCloud displays gists inline.
16:54	bitemyapp	arubin: that's pretty appealing.
16:54	technomancy	mikerod: not really sure what you're intending there. wouldn't expect that to work.
16:54	bitemyapp	I also like my macro images to be inlined.
16:54	Profpatsch	Hm, not even (with-out-str) works for grabbing stdout in the repl …
16:54	technomancy	bitemyapp: you must trust your co-workers more than I do
16:55	technomancy	Profpatsch: with-out-str operates on out, not System/out
16:56	mikerod	I don't know why you wouldn't expect it to work. It is a very simplified case.
16:56	mikerod	*though
16:57	technomancy	you have a macro that returns a function object instead of a list that compiles to a function
16:58	mikerod	In the case 2 example; I want the macro to return a map that has keys -> fn objects
16:59	bitemyapp	technomancy: my coworkers are boring enough that I wouldn't worry. I'm the crazy one, remember?
16:59	mikerod	so making fn objects during macro-expansion and returning them = bad
16:59	technomancy	bitemyapp: it'll rub off on them eventually
17:00	bitemyapp	>:)
17:01	technomancy	mikerod: well the return value of the macro gets fed to the compiler
17:02	mikerod	I added a comment on the gist, where I did macroexpand-1 (to see what feeds to the compiler) ;= {:f #<user$get_map_of_fn$fn__10283 user$get_map_of_fn$fn__10283@7321803a>}
17:02	mikerod	And that fails
17:02	mikerod	with the function having the closure
17:03	mikerod	I guess I can (try) to see that this is bad
17:04	zerokarmaleft	technomancy: how would you recommend tracing execution of hook-fns added via robert-hooke?
17:04	technomancy	zerokarmaleft: if they're vars then c.t.trace should just work
17:04	zerokarmaleft	tools.trace seems to break at the point of the hook
17:05	technomancy	on the hooked var or the hook?
17:05	bitemyapp	clojure-py is pretty cool, if anyone has a need for something like that.
17:06	zerokarmaleft	technomancy: the hook itself
17:06	technomancy	hm; sorry, I don't know
17:08	pdk	, (macroexpand-1 (-> 1 2 3 4))
17:08	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
17:08	pdk	welp
17:08	Profpatsch	technomancy: out should default to System/out, but out is a PrintWriter and System/out is a PrintStream in my repl
17:09	Profpatsch	Can I redirect System/out to the out PrintWriter somehow?
17:09	mikerod	,(macroexpand-1 '(-> 1 2 3 4))
17:09	clojurebot	(4 (3 (2 1)))
17:09	Profpatsch	Locally if possible.
17:10	mikerod	I'm not sure why clojurebot just fully expanded that macro
17:10	mikerod	pdk: You have to quote the form passed to macroexpand-1
17:10	AeroNotix	kind of new to clojure -- can I use leiningen to find local applications/libraries? Ala $GOPATH or $PYTHONPATH or w/e?
17:10	mikerod	unless it will be evaluated
17:12	justin_smith	AeroNotix: lein finds remote deps and installs them to a local archive, you can use lein install to add something to the local archive manually
17:13	bitemyapp	AeroNotix: ls -alh ~/.m2/
17:13	AeroNotix	justin_smith: say like I am developing a project locally and I also locally develop a library for it. Does it need to be a remote dependency too?
17:14	justin_smith	AeroNotix: no, you can use lein install to make it available locally
17:14	justin_smith	and lein uberjar to pack it up with the rest
17:14	justin_smith	but it can be convenient to put it on clojars
17:15	AeroNotix	hmm, with quicklisp for common lisp you can do this. There's a directory which it scans for quicklisp enabled projects. Anythign like this with leiningen?
17:15	technomancy	AeroNotix: lein is more focused on ensuring everything works on a fresh checkout out of the box
17:16	AeroNotix	technomancy: what does that mean in this situation?
17:16	AeroNotix	QuickLisp works fine
17:16	technomancy	you can add optimizations for local dev, but that's a step you do after correctly declaring things in :dependencies
17:16	justin_smith	AeroNotix: it works fine on whose box and after finding the deps how?
17:17	AeroNotix	justin_smith: quicklisp is a managed set of repositories. There's an index which lists where dependencies live. (ql:quickload :project-name) then walks the dependencies and grabs them all.
17:17	technomancy	from what I've heard about $GOPATH, "works fine" is not really a good description
17:18	AeroNotix	Perhaps using it would be a better way to form an opinion.
17:18	justin_smith	AeroNotix: so if I had a checkout of your source project, that is all I would need? or would I need to go download a bunch of libraries by hand?
17:18	AeroNotix	justin_smith: you need to have a quicklisp enabled system, yes. But that's similar to needing to have lein installed.
17:18	technomancy	hopefully that will never be necessary
17:18	AeroNotix	technomancy: what wouldn't be necessary?
17:19	technomancy	being forced to write go at work
17:19	AeroNotix	I'm not getting into that conversation. You're arbitrary beef is your arbitrary beef.
17:19	AeroNotix	It's a language which Clojure itself ripped off to good effect. Not sure where the problem is but whatevs.
17:19	AeroNotix	You disliking it still doesn't make me understand lein any better.
17:20	technomancy	I've made an explicit choice to avoid the slopiness around go's dependency handling
17:20	AeroNotix	I don't care. I think I made that clear :)
17:20	justin_smith	AeroNotix: lein is a dpendency manager, it doesn't use a path, instead it uses mvn project coordinates for each project so versions can be installed in parallel
17:20	AeroNotix	justin_smith: I see.
17:20	technomancy	projects should declare everything they need in order to function
17:21	AeroNotix	technomancy: cool.
17:21	AeroNotix	justin_smith: Do I need to understand mvn to use lein?
17:21	technomancy	if it's not declared in project.clj, it doesn't exist, basically
17:21	AeroNotix	technomancy: cool.
17:21	justin_smith	AeroNotix: lein generates a specific path for each artifact you need based on your dependency delcarations, and the recursive declarations generated for that
17:21	justin_smith	AeroNotix: you won't need to understand mvn
17:21	AeroNotix	(fwiw you demonstrably do not understand go's dependency tracking, technomancy but we'll leave it at that.)
17:22	technomancy	not worried, there is a huge pile of other reasons to avoid it
17:22	AeroNotix	justin_smith: so how do local projects come into this? Are there some docs somewhere about that? I looked at some SO answers and it looked like there were some specific flags for local paths
17:22	AeroNotix	technomancy: cool.
17:22	justin_smith	AeroNotix: as I said, lein install will put the project in the current directory into the local repo cache
17:23	justin_smith	then another project can declare a dep in order to find it
17:23	AeroNotix	justin_smith: OHHHH!
17:23	AeroNotix	justin_smith: I get it, I get it
17:23	justin_smith	how many times did I say "lein install" ?
17:23	AeroNotix	justin_smith: sorry, this is new to me
17:23	technomancy	so you have two projects, right? one of them is a lib? if you can put it on clojars, that will make things much easier.
17:23	AeroNotix	technomancy: baby steps
17:23	AeroNotix	also, it may not be public code.
17:24	justin_smith	AeroNotix: a difference is that every dependency is versioned
17:24	justin_smith	that is actually a huge benefit
17:24	pdk	, (macroexpand-1 '(-> 1 2)))
17:24	clojurebot	(2 1)
17:24	pdk	, (macroexpand-1 '(-> 1 2 3))
17:24	clojurebot	(3 (2 1))
17:24	technomancy	yeah lein is secretly an attempt to convince everyone to OSS their libs by making private repos a hassle. you heard it here first. =)
17:25	AeroNotix	technomancy: cool.
17:25	akhudek	AeroNotix: it's trivial to just locally install libraries for local dev
17:25	akhudek	AeroNotix: we do it all the time
17:26	justin_smith	akhudek: he may even know the command to do that by now
17:26	AeroNotix	justin_smith: :)
17:28	AeroNotix	hmm this is pretty cool
17:29	mikerod	technomancy: you will make Richard Stallman proud
17:29	justin_smith	AeroNotix: the ability to select versions without having to uninstall anything or manually set a path is pretty nice, I am spoiled for other environments at this point
17:30	AeroNotix	isn't this just re-using java machinery?
17:30	AeroNotix	e.g. mvn
17:30	justin_smith	yes, but edn instead of xml is a nice bonus
17:30	justin_smith	and it is more succinct
17:30	hyPiRion	well, clojure, rather.
17:31	Bronsa	mikerod: you will make RMS mad at you for confusing Open Source with Free Software
17:31	technomancy	mikerod: it's the least I could do after the whole "writing Emacs" thing.
17:31	justin_smith	AeroNotix: I am not saying no other language has it, but from what I have seen none has it quite as simple
17:31	AeroNotix	cool ok
17:31	mikerod	that's true, way to give back
17:32	mikerod	or perhaps it is pay it forward
17:32	technomancy	npm has a neat thing where you can trivially isolate dependency trees due to the way js modules work
17:32	technomancy	you can't do that for java since packages aren't first-class
17:32	TimMc	Bronsa: Not even that; you could still have binary blobs in a public place without having the source there.
17:32	technomancy	and doing it for clojure without doing it for java is kinda pointless =\
17:35	technomancy	AeroNotix: but yeah, maven built some very good foundations we're sitting upon. not too keen on how their builds work, but their repo infrastructure is great.
17:35	AeroNotix	technomancy: cool
17:36	technomancy	I admit I would have made several design mistakes due to my rubygems background if some of those decisions hadn't already been made for me. =)
17:36	akhudek	the only thing that would make mvn better would be the ability to use multiple version of one library in one project
17:37	technomancy	akhudek: it's not really Maven's faund that Java packages are half-assed tohugh
17:37	akhudek	very true
17:37	TimMc	akhudek: I suspect that was omitted because Java doesn't generally allow for that.
17:37	technomancy	fault
17:37	technomancy	geez, my fingers
17:37	TimMc	Even though Maven "isn't just for Java".
17:38	AeroNotix	so let's say I just `lein install'd something. I fire up a repl, will it be able to access that repo? Or does it need `lein repl'?
17:38	technomancy	TimMc: well, that brokenness is baked in pretty deep
17:38	justin_smith	AeroNotix: with alembic or pomegranate it can find and load that lib
17:38	justin_smith	AeroNotix: but it is often easier to make a project.clj that declares the dep
17:39	AeroNotix	and then `lein repl' in the other project?
17:39	technomancy	AeroNotix: tl;dr: no, but if the project.clj hasn't changed you can use lein's checkout-deps feature to pick up changes in a library's working copy without restarting the repl
17:39	justin_smith	right, then require the dep
17:39	technomancy	(assuming you've already added it to :dependencies)
17:39	justin_smith	https://github.com/pallet/alembic
17:39	AeroNotix	cool, ok
17:40	AeroNotix	so basically, I can't just fire up a REPL and find the local cache of stuff without some third-party things.
17:40	AeroNotix	ala Python REPLs
17:40	technomancy	`lein help faq` tells you about checkout deps
17:40	AeroNotix	reading
17:40	technomancy	...I think
17:41	justin_smith	technomancy: I think he is just asking about finding something in a repl after a lein install
17:41	justin_smith	unless I misunderstand
17:41	AeroNotix	that's correct justin_smith
17:41	Profpatsch	technomancy: I guess I have to redefine System.out to out. However, System/out is static. Is there a way to redefine that in Clojure?
17:42	justin_smith	AeroNotix: I think technomancy was trying to tell you how to do something more complex
17:42	AeroNotix	probably
17:42	technomancy	checkout deps confuse everyone, so I was pre-emptively over-explaining
17:43	technomancy	Profpatsch: not sure off the top of my head, but you're on the right track it sounds like
17:43	AeroNotix	I just want to have a project of code which I import via the repl.. can it be done?
17:44	technomancy	just do the `lein install; restart the repl` thing till you get the hang of that
17:44	technomancy	then once you get tired of having to restart the repl, read up on cehckout deps
17:44	AeroNotix	so when I `lein install' ALL repls have access to this via the local cache?
17:45	justin_smith	if it is referenced in project.clj or you use alembic or the like, yes
17:45	AeroNotix	ok. So not just any random repl
17:45	technomancy	`lein install` means "put this in the local repo"
17:45	technomancy	so it means that any project on your machine can declare it in project.clj
17:46	technomancy	as if it were a published dependency on clojars or whatever
17:46	justin_smith	AeroNotix: a key here is there is no implicit dependency (though there is recursive dependency). Every dependency is declared somewhere.
17:46	AeroNotix	hmm
17:46	justin_smith	AeroNotix: though there are workarounds like adding deps to profiles.clj if you want it in every repl
17:46	bitemyapp	yeah so if you want to use Datomic with Python, seriously consider clojure-py.
17:47	justin_smith	or as I mentioned there are libs that find and resolve and import deps at runtime
17:47	AeroNotix	ok thanks
17:52	AeroNotix	ahaaaa, I got it.
17:53	AeroNotix	so, if I wanted to. I could use profiles.clj to have a similar workflow to what I get in other languages (a global set of repositories) by dynamically adding the deps in the profiles.clj
17:53	AeroNotix	whilst also maintaining dependency happiness with the project's project.clj
17:55	technomancy	yeah, typically you would do that with dev tools that the project doesn't actually depend on
17:55	justin_smith	AeroNotix: well I would do it by adding a dep on alembic to profiles.clj
17:55	justin_smith	AeroNotix: but only finding deps explicitly is a huge benefit
17:55	technomancy	profilers, debuggers, refactoring tools, etc
17:55	justin_smith	AeroNotix: it makes deployment and sharing code much simpler
17:56	AeroNotix	justin_smith: if the dependencies are listed properly with project.clj how does that affect things if profiles.clj also has dependencies. Do the deps in profiles.clj get included, too?
17:57	justin_smith	AeroNotix: only one version of a dep will be pulled in, project.clj should override profiles.clj
17:57	justin_smith	they are merged
17:57	technomancy	the lists get merged. if there's overlap it can be problematic though.
17:57	technomancy	you can see the full thing with `lein deps :tree`
17:57	AeroNotix	ohh, I thought the profiles.clj dependencies were separate.
17:58	technomancy	`lein with-profile production deps :tree` for the "pristine" deps
17:58	AeroNotix	thanks all
18:14	jcromartie	alright technomancy: you've convinced me
18:15	technomancy	cool; your next mission is to use clojure.core/when for side-effects, not just for when you have a single-branch condition
18:16	bitemyapp	ooooohhhh monad comprehensions
18:16	AeroNotix	nice using # in macros for gensym. Nice touch
18:16	bitemyapp	technomancy: monad comprehensions would be nice in OCaml Async.
18:25	technomancy	I believe you but don't know what to do with this knowledge.
18:25	bitemyapp	technomancy: hum. Does OCaml have list comprehensions?
18:25	bitemyapp	the syntax in Haskell is repurposeable.
18:26	technomancy	not sure; I always just use map/iter
18:26	bitemyapp	yeah but I mean generalizing to monads
18:27	technomancy	dunno; I've only ever used two monads on purpose, and one of them was called "The GitHub Monad"
18:28	shep-home	After watching http://vimeo.com/68383317, my interest in quickcheck and friends is renewed
18:28	shep-home	mostly because I realized that my generated data can be a sequence of functions that are applied to an initial state
18:29	shep-home	which led me to try it out. It works, but I was less-than-enthused with the output from failing cases
18:29	shep-home	Is there some better string representation of functions that would help me here?
18:29	shep-home	Or perhaps some tweak to simple-check?
18:30	akurilin	Oh man, exciting day in clojureland today.
18:30	akurilin	Great post there dnolen .
18:30	shep-home	For example, ":smallest [1 (#<core$partial$fn__4190 clojure.core$partial$fn__4190@71a40dde>)]" is not helping me narrow down the problem i have introduced
18:37	edw	Hey guys, I pushed a little library in Clojure that allows folks to use etcd for configuration using the same interface they'd normally access environment variables, making development and deployment of Clojure apps on CoreOS simpler. <https://github.com/edw/scallion>
18:39	pdk	tonight is a mini accomplishment
18:39	pdk	ported -> and ->> to common without them overflowing stack or giving stupid results
18:43	devn	dnolen: the link to "Source" in your TODOMvc clone points at tastejs's github repo
18:44	devn	Just an FYI
18:47	logic_prog	do atoms have almost no overhead in cljs because javascript is single threaded?
18:52	edw	logic_prog: One would hope that you're mostly deref-ing atoms and not modifying them. It's probably the difference between writing "x + 1" and "x[0] + 1" in terms of time and space.
18:53	logic_prog	I need to have a global queue
18:53	logic_prog	I'm using (atom []) to simulate it
18:53	logic_prog	should I be doing something else?
18:53	edw	Been there.
18:53	logic_prog	I was goign to use core.async, ... but core.async has a limit on # of elements on the chan
18:53	logic_prog	edw: what did you end up doing?
18:53	logic_prog	also, I have no idea the difference between "x+1" and "x[0]+1"
18:54	edw	Probably quite small.
18:54	logic_prog	doesn't x+1 and x[0]+1 mean semantically different thigns
18:54	logic_prog	when x is a vector?
18:55	edw	logic_prog: Yeah. In the first case, x would be your queue, in the second, x is an array, the first and only element of which is your queue.
18:56	weavejester	Does anyone know if there are any issues with using Austin with the latests Clojurescript/
18:57	edw	I'm very unfamiliar with the performance promises (if any) that JS runtimes give you about performance of adding or deleted single items from the front and/or back of an array. I'd think you could just use pop(), push(), shift(), and unshift() JS methods directly.
18:57	weavejester	Ah, actually, looking at the source code I might be missing a configuration option
19:01	weavejester	Hm, that didn't work either...
19:02	weavejester	Is anyone using anything other than Austin for cljs REPLs?
19:03	shep-home	reiddraper: https://gist.github.com/shepmaster/8048392 -- an example of the output that I am getting with simple-check
19:03	shep-home	Pretty nice tool :-)
19:03	shep-home	Thanks for your work on it!
19:05	justin_smith	shep-home: one thing that often helps is using named anonymous functions when possible. This comes up with trying to decipher stacktraces too
19:07	bitemyapp	weavejester: what's your impression of Hoplon so far?
19:08	weavejester	bitemyapp: I'd hesitate to offer an opinion as I'm not that well-versed in ClojureScript dev as yet.
19:08	bitemyapp	weavejester: I'm a little more so, I'm trying to figure out if it's solving the two-way binding problem or something bigger than that.
19:08	bitemyapp	I need to get noprompt to look at this.
19:08	weavejester	I'm still trying to set up a cljs environment for my first cljs library :)
19:09	noprompt	what's?
19:09	bitemyapp	so far it looks like it's eval + two-way binding + stateful vars getting smashed over and over.
19:09	bitemyapp	noprompt: http://hoplon.io
19:09	weavejester	Without much luck, I might add...
19:09	bitemyapp	no event stream/core.async/FRP though.
19:09	noprompt	bitemyapp: oh yes, i've seen this. a while back.
19:09	bitemyapp	noprompt: are my impressions accurate?
19:09	bitemyapp	DOM event streams smashing var state?
19:09	weavejester	I'm unable to get a REPL up that can load in any code. And I get weird warning messages.
19:10	noprompt	bitemyapp: i haven't looked at the code however.
19:11	reiddraper	shep-home: yeah, you definitely bring up a good point, and some custom output for when a test fails is on the roadmap. you wanna file an issue about it so it can be public?
19:11	weavejester	Does anyone happen to have an example of a working cljs environment with a REPL?
19:11	bitemyapp	weavejester: https://github.com/swannodette/mies
19:12	technomancy	it's really distressing that people are asking that question in what is nearly 2014 =\
19:12	weavejester	bitemyapp: I can get that far, but I can't get a good REPL working.
19:13	bitemyapp	technomancy: more distressing that those best positioned to solve the problem have made a habit of denying there's a problem.
19:13	weavejester	So "lein trampoline cljsbuild repl" works
19:13	weavejester	But I was trying to use something tied in with nREPL
19:13	bitemyapp	weavejester: getting brepl/austin REPL working is a "building your lightsaber" rite of passage for CLJS.
19:13	technomancy	especially coming from someone who has been doing clojure web programming since before I even heard of clojure
19:13	weavejester	Like piggyback or austin
19:13	weavejester	I do feel very much like a newcomer to cljs :)
19:14	bitemyapp	weavejester: https://github.com/cemerick/austin/tree/master/browser-connected-repl-sample this is the example project for austin.
19:14	weavejester	Ironically I've avoided it for so long precisely because it seemed so hard to set up and so tricky to debug.
19:14	bitemyapp	the debugging story is better than Clojure once you actually get it working
19:14	shep-home	justin_smith: good call. Unfortunately, it doesn't help that much. Also, I'd really like to have the arguments included
19:14	bitemyapp	spoiled bastards have a stepping debugger.
19:14	weavejester	bitemyapp: Yeah, I've looked at that, too. But I can't get the (ns blah (:require ...))
19:14	weavejester	to work
19:15	shep-home	reiddraper: can do. You want an issue for the generic (custom output) or the specific (partial functions)?
19:16	reiddraper	shep-home: custom output please, not sure there is much we can do for printing functions. but feel free to motivate with that specific case
19:16	weavejester	Austin also gives a strange warning: "WARNING: Symbol IDeref is not a protocol"
19:16	shep-home	Yup
19:16	weavejester	Which isn't present when I run the REPL through Rhino
19:17	bitemyapp	weavejester: can mostly ignore the warning IIRC
19:17	justin_smith	shep-home: well (fn invert [x & args] (apply - x args)) will print more readably than #(partial - %) and does the same thing
19:17	weavejester	bitemyapp: Oh, okay
19:17	justin_smith	invert is a terrible name for it though
19:17	bitemyapp	weavejester: what's the actual error/problem?
19:18	weavejester	bitemyapp: I'll just gist it...
19:18	bitemyapp	eggscellent.
19:18	weavejester	bitemyapp: https://gist.github.com/weavejester/8048564
19:19	weavejester	Maybe it's because I'm not using "src" for my cljs?
19:19	weavejester	Except the warning implies it did load it up.
19:20	bitemyapp	weavejester: lein-cljsbuild has special source dir / prefix parameters.
19:20	bitemyapp	weavejester: you need to specify them so it knows where to find your namespaces.
19:20	bitemyapp	fair warning: I write clojurescript approximately once a month. I've actually written more clojure-py than CLJS in the last 30 day interval.
19:21	weavejester	bitemyapp: Oh, cljsbuild works fine. Let me show you the branch
19:21	weavejester	https://github.com/weavejester/reagi/tree/clojurescript
19:21	bitemyapp	weavejester: "works fine" is relative, you could be working with a brepl that doesn't have your namespaces rolled in.
19:22	weavejester	bitemyapp: Well, what I mean is that it compiles and works with "lein trampoline cljsbuild repl"
19:22	weavejester	Actually, let me just double-check that.
19:22	bitemyapp	weavejester: well, normally it wouldn't matter, but yeah, IDeref isn't a protocol.
19:23	weavejester	bitemyapp: what is it?
19:23	weavejester	I know in Clojure it's an interface.
19:24	weavejester	But in cljs?
19:24	bitemyapp	weavejester: do something for me first, unfuck that code long enough to test accessing your namespace as if it was a dumb one with a hello-world inside of it
19:24	bitemyapp	weavejester: get that working first, then we can broach the subject of your deftype.
19:25	bitemyapp	one thing at a time.
19:25	bitemyapp	(defn muh-fn [] (println "lol"))
19:25	weavejester	Okay - hang on, rhino-repl is still loading.
19:25	bitemyapp	I want to get your namespace loading and working in Austin.
19:26	bitemyapp	since that's the workflow you'd most likely want to work with long term.
19:26	weavejester	Yeah.
19:26	bitemyapp	when you mentioned the warning, I thought it was those generic ones you get sometimes when firing up a CLJS repl, I didn't know you were depending on that actual behavior in your code.
19:26	weavejester	Confirmed it all works fine with rhino-repl
19:27	weavejester	Yeah, I assumed IDeref was a protocol, since: https://github.com/weavejester/reagi/tree/clojurescript
19:27	bitemyapp	k, comment out the deftype/protocol crap
19:27	weavejester	Oops, I mean: https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/src/cljs/cljs/core.cljs#L274
19:27	bitemyapp	try calling a hello-world fn from your namespace in austin
19:27	bitemyapp	weavejester: In CLJS-land, nothing is true and everything is permitted.
19:28	weavejester	Okay
19:28	weavejester	Just got one function now: (defn hello [] "Hello world")
19:28	bitemyapp	perfekt.
19:28	bitemyapp	and requiring + invoking does?
19:29	weavejester	Just checking. Wiped my out and target dirs, starting up lein repl
19:31	bitemyapp	weavejester: in case you end up needing this information, I've started using clojure-py at work and it's pretty credible.
19:33	weavejester	bitemyapp: https://gist.github.com/weavejester/8048656
19:33	weavejester	No joy
19:33	weavejester	Same error as before
19:34	shep-home	reiddraper: done, thanks! https://github.com/reiddraper/simple-check/issues/45
19:34	weavejester	I'll try wiping out .repl, then restart. See if it's something wrong with temporary files left around.
19:35	shep-home	Now that I've done the hard part of creating the issue, I've no doubt it will be fixed soon :-)
19:37	shep-home	justin_smith: is there a way I can do (fn (...construct-a-name...) []) ?
19:39	reiddraper	@shep-home much appreciated
19:40	weavejester	Nope, same problem
19:41	weavejester	Although there's no sign of my function in "out" or ".repl"
19:41	Raynes	shep-home: You'd need a macro for that.
19:41	weavejester	cljsbuild compiled it correctly into "target/main.js"
19:41	weavejester	But I don't know how Austin knows about that.
19:41	bitemyapp	weavejester: nuts.
19:43	weavejester	bitemyapp: Maybe Austin assumes a source path of src/cljs ?
19:43	shep-home	Raynes: yeah, I found a mailing list post and was skimming through that. Thanks!
19:43	bitemyapp	weavejester: I think it only cares about the build artifact from cljsbuild.
19:44	weavejester	bitemyapp: But how does it know where cljsbuild put it?
19:44	bitemyapp	weavejester: why isn't austin in your profile plugins?
19:44	bitemyapp	weavejester: also set optimizations to simple
19:45	weavejester	bitemyapp: Well, it wouldn't make any difference if it was in profile plugins or at the top level.
19:53	weavejester	bitemyapp: setting optimizations to simple doesn't work. I'm taking the config from the sample app directly now. Then I'll try changing directories.
20:03	Bronsa	technomancy: ping
20:06	weavejester	Hm, now my system is dying. brb
20:07	technomancy	Bronsa: hi
20:09	Bronsa	technomancy: hi :), I'm trying a branch of tools.analyzer.jvm which requires core.memoize 0.5.6, unfortunately when I try to use "lein eastwood" (a linter that now uses t.analyzer) it crashes because it looks like an older version of core.cache than what core.memoize 0.5.6 needs is in leiningen's process
20:11	technomancy	Bronsa: huh, so the analyzer doesn't run in project-space?
20:12	Bronsa	technomancy: I'm.. not really familiar with how plugins work in leiningen, are you saying I should look at the dependency issue in eastwood's dependencies?
20:14	technomancy	we can bump the version in Leiningen, but I don't have any plans to cut a release in the near future. doing as much as possible in the project's JVM isolates you from problems lik ethis though.
20:14	technomancy	I guess the analyzer doesn't need to actually eval any code or access any dependencies?
20:15	technomancy	so technically it could run in either (modulo dependency conflicts)
20:15	technomancy	and running inside Leiningen's own process is certainly faster
20:17	Bronsa	hm, ok so removing the :eval-in-leiningen true solved the issuse, I guess we'll go with that for now
20:18	technomancy	oh, I see. eastwood uses eval-in-project, but for plugin projects that's not going to help?
20:22	Bronsa	technomancy: I honestly have no idea on how leiningen plugins works and what the eastwood one does. I'll let Andy or jonase handle this, sorry for bothering you
20:23	technomancy	I would definitely recommend removing :eval-in-leiningen unless you are writing a plugin.
20:24	Bronsa	technomancy: eastwood is a plugin
20:25	technomancy	oh I see; the plugin needs the analyzer; you're not hacking on the analyzer itself
20:26	technomancy	yeah, it is pretty silly that Leiningen pulls in core.cache just for its templating engine, which is pretty much guaranteed to not need it =\
20:27	weavejester	Hum, I'm giving up on trying to get ClojureScript to work for now.
20:28	weavejester	I'll need to ask how people actually develop in ClojureScript on the mailing list. It's not nearly as straightforward as Clojure.
20:31	technomancy	Bronsa: feel free to inc: https://github.com/davidsantiago/stencil/issues/18 =)
20:31	logic_prog	argh
20:31	logic_prog	how do I do macro expansion in cljs?
20:32	logic_prog	im getting errors of not ffinding cljs.compiler and cljs.analyzer
20:32	Bronsa	technomancy: one-upped, thanks
20:32	technomancy	Bronsa: I'm sure the debian folks would love that too
20:33	Bronsa	technomancy: are they packaging lein?
20:33	technomancy	yeah, they are pretty close to getting 2.x into sid it sounds like
20:34	Bronsa	That made me die a little inside
20:36	technomancy	the fact that it currently ships 1.x?
20:36	technomancy	apparently there was a ton of cleanup they had to do
20:37	technomancy	lots of projects that don't ship with license files; some with internally inconsistent licensing
20:39	weavejester	AHA!
20:40	weavejester	The undocumented configuration option I was missing was to set the :source-paths to Clojure and ClojureScript
20:40	weavejester	:source-paths ["src" "src-cljs"]
20:51	technomancy	it doesn't let you put them both in src/?
20:52	hiredman	technomancy: you can
20:54	hiredman	he isn't clear about the option though, because while lein has a :source-path(s) so does cljsbuild
20:54	hiredman	not sure how or if they overlap
20:54	hiredman	cljsbuild's is certainly mentioned in the readme too
21:39	seangrove	What's the difference between :foreign-libs and :preamble for cljsbuild?
21:50	OldTree	Hi, clojure-noob here, was reading through source of "juxt" when I saw "reduce1." (doc reduce1) evaluates to nil, but I found one site that places reduce1 in clojure.core, clodoc.org. I'd appreciate any info on it.
21:59	alandipert	dnolen: nice work re: om! curious about https://github.com/swannodette/om/issues/9 - is this complection part of why react is so fast?
22:03	seangrove	OldTree: reduce1 is defined in the same file on line 882
22:04	OldTree	thanks
22:22	dobladez	Any suggestions for a CI solution for a Clojure + JavaScript project ?
22:23	seangrove	dobladez: CircleCI + Phantom/Sauce Labs via WebDriver?
22:24	seangrove	+ clojure.test + cemerick/clojurescript.test, depending on what kind of tests
22:24	dobladez	sounds like an option, thanks
22:24	dobladez	do you have experience with CircleCI ?
22:24	dobladez	vs., say, Jenkins ?
22:24	seangrove	Sure, used both
22:25	seangrove	Also, worked at Sauce for quite awhile, so a bit biased in that regard
22:25	dobladez	great... so, any pros/cons between Circle and Jenkins ?
22:27	seangrove	Same argument with Heroku vs Linode. Circle is slick, pretty easy to get setup, and you don't have to worry about it. And when they add things on, they do it in a sustainable way. Jenkins has a much more vast ecosystem of varying quality, it takes longer to tweak and get right, but it very flexible and you can really drill down into the box running it.
22:39	bitemyapp	arrdem: mumbur?
22:40	arrdem	bitemyapp: yeah hang on glue in hand building minis
22:48	bitemyapp	solid evening.
22:48	arrdem	iknowrite
22:49	bitemyapp	arrdem: do you like tactical shooters?
22:49	arrdem	bitemyapp: I mean I played MWO, but I don't usually go in for milsims
22:50	bitemyapp	arrdem: hum, what I'm thinking of is more realistic than CounterStrike, but similarly structured - but more fun and focused than ArmA
22:50	bitemyapp	it's on sale.
22:50	bitemyapp	I've been playing it for 4-5 years, they have a new early access thing.
22:50	arrdem	bitemyapp: title?
23:23	SegFaultAX	dobladez: I've used CircleCI and Jenkins extensively, let me know if you have any questions.
23:25	dobladez	SegFaultAX: I have quite a bit of experience with Jenkins (from past Java projects)... just wondered if it's easy to make it work with lein and the rest of the Clojure and JavaScript testing ecosystem
23:25	dobladez	so, was looking for recommendations/caveats or other options besides Jenkins and CircleCI
23:27	SegFaultAX	dobladez: It's trivial to make Clojure projects work with Jenkins.
23:27	SegFaultAX	Especially if you've done it with a similar build system before.
23:27	dobladez	great
23:27	dobladez	I see there's a leiningen plugin for it
23:28	SegFaultAX	CircleCI is /really/ expensive, and the UI, while pretty, has some pretty big issues.
23:29	SegFaultAX	One of our biggest annoyances with Circle in general was a) it ran builds pretty slowly b) it didn't do a good job of collapsing enqueued jobs for multiple commits on the same branch.
23:29	dobladez	so, with Jenkins is it easy to capture test runs from, say, Midje ?
23:29	SegFaultAX	Yes. Just archive the artifacts (which includes stdout)
23:30	SegFaultAX	Then you can go back and look at the at your leisure.
23:30	SegFaultAX	We initially started using Circle as a stopgap while we looked for a permanent CI solution. We didn't really realize how expensive it would be.
23:30	dobladez	oh with "capture" I just meant to auto-detect build failures with at least some minimal reporting about it
23:31	SegFaultAX	In the end we just built two custom machines with lots of ram and CPU.
23:31	SegFaultAX	dobladez: The easy way to do that is return a non-zero exit code.
23:31	SegFaultAX	Jenkins has extensive reporting and tracking features.
23:32	dobladez	right. OK... looks like I'll play with Circle a bit... (has a 14-day trial)... but knowning I might endup with my own Jenkins on Digital Ocean
23:32	SegFaultAX	Ugh. How big is the sweet?
23:32	SegFaultAX	I would say don't do cloud-based CI.
23:33	SegFaultAX	If you can avoid it.
23:33	SegFaultAX	Our suite is mid-sized, maybe 13 - 17k tests. It took like 24 - 30 minutes per run on Circle.
23:33	SegFaultAX	~16 on dedicated boxes ($800 each)
23:33	clojurebot	Excuse me?
23:34	dobladez	well... it's a small project... we are only 1.5 developers... and we don't own (nor plan to purchase) hardware
23:35	SegFaultAX	Oh, well then whatever works.
23:35	SegFaultAX	Probably circle will be fine.
23:35	SegFaultAX	Or travis.
23:36	dobladez	travis is much more expensive it seems
23:37	SegFaultAX	Just use whatever works to get CI going.
23:37	dobladez	What I like about a custom Jenkins is that with DigitalOcean I can probably start fine with the $5/mo. option... and easily bump it if needed... and if that ever becomes slow, simply move the installation to local hardware
23:37	SegFaultAX	For small projects it mostly doesn't matter, and the costs of switching is low.
23:39	SegFaultAX	dobladez: Yea, plus it's easy to slave builds with Jenkins.
23:39	dobladez	SegFaultAX: curious: what are you working on? looks like a pretty big Clojure project
23:40	SegFaultAX	dobladez: Well the big one I'm referring to is Rails.
23:40	dobladez	ah, ok
23:43	SegFaultAX	dobladez: One thing I've been thinking about for a while is using Jenkins to run builds inside of docker.
23:44	dobladez	yep... I think there's already support for that
23:45	dobladez	on a prior project, we configured it with an internal "cloud" (CloudStack) using Jenkins' jclouds plugin (if I remember correctly)
23:45	dobladez	so, it launched new slaves as need
23:45	dobladez	docker containers are much faster to start though... perfect fit
23:55	SegFaultAX	dobladez: Yea, that's pretty awesome.
23:56	dobladez	SegFaultAX: gotta go... 2am here. thanks again