#clojure – 2013-12-14

2013-12-14

00:05	akhudek	wow, gloss is much slower at reading than writing
00:13	cljr	,(-> (concat (repeat 10 0x00) (repeat 2 0xff) [127 0 0 1]) (map char) (apply str))
00:13	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.LazySeq cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
00:14	cljr	,(->> (concat (repeat 10 0x00) (repeat 2 0xff) [127 0 0 1]) (map char)
00:14	cljr	(apply str))
00:14	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
00:18	cljr	,(->> (concat (repeat 10 0x00) (repeat 2 0xff) [127 0 0 1]) (map char) (apply str))
00:18	clojurebot	"
00:20	cljr	speaking of gloss, ive got a frame defined as an ascii string, and when i write out the above data using that frame, the hex output ends up like 00 .. 00 3f 3f 7f 00 00 01, when im expecting 00 .. 00 ff ff 7f 00 00 01, im a newbie at this, am i doing something wrong encoding-wise?
00:23	akhudek	https://www.refheap.com/21752
00:23	akhudek	ouch
00:24	akhudek	cljr: I'm not sure. Are you sure the string encoding is right? Maybe it's utf-16 or something?
00:25	cljr	well, when i use (str ..) that is a utf-16utf-16 string, rights?
00:25	cljr	But even if i change the frame to use that, i get even weirder hex output than i would expect
00:27	akhudek	cljr: looks like you can specify the encoding in your frame definition
00:28	akhudek	https://github.com/ztellman/gloss/wiki/Introduction
00:29	cljr	akhudek: yeah, that is what i mean, when i change it to :utf-16, output is even more off
00:33	akhudek	cljr: ah, I don't know then
00:42	akhudek	yikes, a custom reader takes only 7.7msec vs 4428msecs using gloss.
00:43	deadghost	is there a sleep function to delay running code?
00:43	deadghost	or do I need to roll my own/pull from java
00:43	akhudek	deadghost: Thread/sleep
00:44	akhudek	deadghost: if you need to schedule code to run later and continue, then you can start a thread where the first call is Thread/sleep
00:44	akhudek	deadghost: there are also scheduling libraries if you want more sophisticated functionality
00:46	TEttinger	deadghost, overtone's at-at is very good.
00:56	cljr	well, maybe i know what my issues is, is a char[] in C/C++ the same as a String in Java?
00:59	dsrx	no
01:02	dsrx	a String in java is more like a std::string in C++
01:06	amalloy	cljr: ascii is a 7-bit encoding, right? so i'm not sure it's well-defined what gloss "should" do if you ask it to encode (char 0xff)
01:14	akhudek	cljr: unicode-8 is not a simple char[]
01:14	akhudek	cljr: however, you should only encounter a difference if you have data that is outside the standard ascii set
01:18	marcopolo2	anyone use clj-webdriver? It crashes my nrepl server whenever I spawn a new browser, anyone experience that?
02:29	ddellacosta	what do I use to get cider to recognize functions declared in the namespace I'm working in?
02:29	ddellacosta	C-c M-n doesn't seem to do it
02:51	divyansr__	, (list 1 1 )
02:51	ddellacosta	nevermind, needed to use C-c C-n.
02:51	clojurebot	(1 1)
02:54	alfred	help
03:22	TEttinger	Alfred, do go on
03:53	bitemyapp	Alfred: refheap.com
04:11	Pupeno	Is there a html template for Clojure that automatically escapes strings unless they been marked as safe, like Rails?
04:12	justin_smith	I think any of the moustache-derived ones should do that
04:15	Pupeno	justin_smith: it seem so, from mustache's docs: "All variables are HTML escaped by default. If you want to return unescaped HTML, use the triple mustache: {{{name}}}."
04:15	Pupeno	Is Hiccups the only structure-based template?
04:15	justin_smith	the one I use is the one we developed for caribou, antlers
04:15	justin_smith	what do you mean by structure-based - like the input is edn?
04:16	justin_smith	if so laser and enlive both can use edn data structures in templating
04:17	Pupeno	justin_smith: not sure what edn is, but what I mean is that you build a tree so you cannot accidentally open a tag without closing it, like hiccups or in rails, haml.
04:17	justin_smith	edn is the clojure equivalent of json
04:17	justin_smith	the basic data literals
04:17	Pupeno	enlive reminds me too much of the zope/plone template engine. It seemed like a good idea in paper but in the day to day it was a nightmare.
04:19	Pupeno	laser seems of the same kind as enlive and zope's
04:19	Pupeno	TAL, that was the name of Zope's.
04:20	justin_smith	I can say those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head, but usually it is the front end guy doing the template stuff, so we use something based on moustache because it is a syntax they are familiar with
04:21	justin_smith	so I don't have much experience with clojure-centric templating
04:21	justin_smith	(though antlers is done in clojure and uses clojure in the helpers)
04:22	Pupeno	In all the teams I been, frontend was done by the same people as everything else, so I stopped choosing template engines based on how easy it would be for someone used to HTML.
04:22	Pupeno	I'm not saying that this is the only way, just what tends to be true for me.
04:23	justin_smith	yeah, we clearly have different environments
04:24	sveri	hi, anyone here using cursive? whichupdate channel do i have to use for the intellij 13 release?
04:24	Pupeno	sveri: I am.
04:25	Pupeno	sveri: I used this one: http://cursiveclojure.com/plugins-13.xml
04:25	Pupeno	if that's what you are asking.
04:25	sveri	yea
04:25	sveri	thank you, i was not sure cause the doc said that this is for the EAP release
04:26	Pupeno	Yeah, intellij was just released and the docs are out of date.
04:26	sveri	ok
04:26	sveri	awesome, thank you very much
04:26	Pupeno	AFAIK
04:26	Pupeno	sveri: just getting started with it?
04:27	sveri	Pupeno: i tried it some time ago, but got not rly warm with it
04:27	sveri	however, emacs lacks some things for me too and as awesome as lighttable is, there are a lot of features missing too (regarding general editing capabilities)
04:27	Pupeno	The fact that by default it's in structural mode was confusing (http://cursiveclojure.com/userguide/paredit.html).
04:27	Pupeno	brb
04:35	Pupeno	I used to play with La Clojure back in the day, before Cursive.
04:53	pepijnd	is there a way to use neo4j via clojurescript
04:55	TEttinger	pepijnd, like via node.js?
04:55	TEttinger	you mean clojurescript not clojure?
04:56	pepijnd	TEttinger, no from the browser. neo4j has a rest api
04:57	TEttinger	http://clojureneo4j.info/
04:57	TEttinger	first result for: clojure neo4j rest api
04:58	pepijnd	TEttinger, thats
04:58	pepijnd	not cljs
04:58	TEttinger	right forgot
05:10	pepijnd	wow https://github.com/zubairq/coils#client-side-neo4j-cypher
05:11	pepijnd	is Clojure on Coils any good?
05:13	guns	gfredericks joked once about "Clojure on Clails"; funniest damn thing I've heard on IRC.
05:16	pepijnd	?
05:17	guns	sorry; just thinking about unfortunately named clojure libraries
05:17	pepijnd	I dont know what clails are
05:17	guns	it's a joke. Unlike Clojure on Coils apparently
05:21	pepijnd	yea. point is that the name doesnt sound very solid/professional. ao given that anyone can put up some code and pretend it's the next RoR, i'm hesitant to start using it
05:22	guns	"secure client side SQL" sounds crazy
05:24	pepijnd	I think it's a macro that does some public key crypto, but it does soud weird
05:29	guns	it sounds like a poorly thought out hack; even if it is secure, a web client should never need direct access to the database
05:29	pepijnd	phpmyadmin?
05:30	guns	I'm not sure if you're trying to illustrate my point :)
05:30	pepijnd	but in that case, you would want "sql injection"
05:31	pepijnd	Y NO LIKE phpmyadmin?
05:31	guns	if he wanted to use macro magic, he could use macros to have code in a template actually execute on the server without piping SQL over the network
05:32	pepijnd	maybe they does that
05:33	guns	then he shouldn't call it "client side"; I'm going to look for the source
05:37	guns	pepijnd: No, it looks like he's throwing _symmetrically_ encrypted SQL over the network
05:37	pepijnd	oh...
05:40	guns	plus, the cipher is PBEWithMD5AndDES, which you could crack with your kid's ps3
05:42	guns	pepijnd: https://github.com/zubairq/coils/blob/coilsdemo/src/webapp/framework/server/encrypt.clj#L9-L17
05:42	guns	and he uses UUID/randomUUID as a test password in development!
05:43	pepijnd	...
05:43	guns	I hope nobody finds this chat, or somebody's client sites are going to get hacked
05:44	pepijnd	thats better than "password" I guess.
05:48	guns	Well, I see that java's randomUUID is actually random (I thought it was one of the less random variants), so I guess I'll back off on that one
05:50	pepijnd	i feel tempted to try cracking http://www.nemcv.com ... for educational value, but probably still a bad idea.
05:50	guns	you've already blown it by mentioning it here :)
05:52	pepijnd	lol, now it's all my fault if they get hacked
06:05	pepijnd	so what is the preferred micro framework these days?
06:07	pepijnd	i like moustache...
06:10	pepijnd	wat.. weavejester wrote clout AND compojure...
06:11	Raynes	pepijnd: And everything else.
06:11	Raynes	Srsly
06:12	pepijnd	haha
06:12	pepijnd	but who needs more than one router? :P
06:12	Raynes	He's basically like people perceive me (lein release clojars new libraries so often that it automatically writes them now).
06:14	Raynes	pepijnd: Also, Compojure uses clout for routing.
06:14	Raynes	For matching routes, I mean.
06:15	pepijnd	ahhh. so compojure is more than routing? never knew
06:15	S3thc0n	Is it practical to use monads instead of accessing values (as an atom for example) globally from within functions?
06:15	Raynes	Well, it's much higher level, pepijnd.
06:16	pepijnd	ok
06:16	Raynes	With a few macros to make things super pretty.
06:16	Raynes	An amazingly well designed API.
06:16	pepijnd	will try
06:16	Raynes	And goodies like some middleware sets pre-made for common use-cases.
06:16	Raynes	pepijnd: You're only just seeing the world!
06:17	Raynes	I'm so happy. ;')
06:17	pepijnd	haha, its been way to long since I did clojure webdev
06:18	Raynes	Me too, man.
06:18	Raynes	I need to give refheap some lovin'.
06:18	Raynes	And stop writing Go.
06:18	pepijnd	haha
06:19	Raynes	There is a possibility I might take some Go work soon, so I've been playing with Go for the last week. Been hacking http://github.com/Raynes/goheap like mad.
06:19	Raynes	It's fun, but I need either better static type systems or dynamic type systems in my life. :p
06:20	pepijnd	you could port all the good things from go to clojure... oh wait, core.async.
06:20	Raynes	But Go has...
06:20	Raynes	What about...
06:20	Raynes	Yeah, no clue.
06:21	pepijnd	I'm doing my first clojure job now, hence the webdev
06:21	Raynes	I mean, as far as C-like syntaxes go, I'm quite fond of it. Tabs turned me off big time, but it really makes no difference when you're writing code and you're expected to run 'go fmt' to computer-format your code anyways.
06:22	Raynes	Nice, congrats on it.
06:22	Raynes	I'm currently coming off my first Clojure job. :p
06:22	pepijnd	go is C like?
06:22	Raynes	Aye.
06:23	Raynes	I mean, it's in the C family of languages
06:23	Raynes	Beyond syntax it doesn't resmble a whole lot.
06:23	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
06:23	pepijnd	oh, ya
06:23	pepijnd	you quit the family tree thing?
06:24	Raynes	Hah, well, I didn't quit it.
06:24	Raynes	Unfortunately the company had to lay some folks off.
06:24	pepijnd	oh...
06:25	pepijnd	that sucks
06:25	Raynes	Well, that's how it always feels at first.
06:25	Raynes	:p
06:26	AeroNotix	So you got fired?
06:26	pepijnd	hah, enjoying some freedom?
06:26	Raynes	But I've got some pretty cool opportunities to pursue. I'm trying to remain in LA because I quite fancy it.
06:26	Raynes	AeroNotix: Nope.
06:27	AeroNotix	Raynes: what's goheap for? play.golang.org
06:27	AeroNotix	Done.
06:27	Raynes	hrm
06:27	Raynes	AeroNotix: What do you mean?
06:28	AeroNotix	Raynes: play.golang.org is the 'pastebin' service which is more pervasive for Go.
06:28	emil0r	hi. does anyone know what to put in leiningen in order to get clojure 1.6.0-master-SNAPSHOT as a dependancy?
06:28	Raynes	AeroNotix: Oh, goheap is an API client for refheap.com
06:28	pepijnd	magic
06:28	Raynes	It's a Clojure pastebin I wrote that the Clojure community uses.
06:29	Raynes	Or, tends to use in any case.
06:29	AeroNotix	Raynes: so you upload Clojure code from Go? I don't get it
06:31	Raynes	AeroNotix: refheap.com is a pastebin that supports tons of languages and has an API. goheap is a library wrapper around it's API (like gist's API and the various clients for it).
06:31	AeroNotix	I se..
06:31	AeroNotix	see
06:31	Raynes	Now if someone perhaps wanted to write a program that pasted something to refheap for some reason and they wanted to write it in Go, they could use goheap to easily do that.
06:32	pepijnd	but gist is not invented here
06:32	Raynes	It was more of a learning project than anything.
06:32	Raynes	The first thing I do in languages usually is write a refheap API client.
06:32	AeroNotix	I see
06:33	pepijnd	Raynes next time try google safe browsing, for a challenge...
06:34	Raynes	pepijnd: ?
06:34	pepijnd	complicated api
06:34	Raynes	Oh!
06:34	Raynes	Hah.
06:35	Raynes	AeroNotix: http://jobsearch.about.com/od/firedtermination/qt/fired-laid-off.htm for an explanation of the difference between laying off and firing. I'm not sure if it's just a USA thing or not.
06:37	AeroNotix	I see
06:44	Raynes	pepijnd: Or! The WolframAlpha API.
06:44	Raynes	Go look at it. I dare you.
06:44	pepijnd	ok, not now, but i will
06:47	progo	enlive with XPath support would be great
07:34	piranha	anybody using cljs repl in browser here? If I did 'defn' of a function, it gets defined nicely. But when I change it and try to execute it (I have my emacs connected to a browser) it's not redefined
07:34	piranha	any pointers what should I do?
08:44	poppingtonic	hi people
09:41	cYmen	hm...
09:42	cYmen	When I do (apply max-key #(...) (filter ...somestuff...)) it is an error when the filter returns an empty list. How do I fix that?
09:49	pdk	make the #(...) function check its argument is nil?
09:50	hyPiRion	find some minimal value
09:50	hyPiRion	(apply max-key fn min-value (filter ...))
09:54	cYmen	hm...yeah I did approximately that but I simply added a value that will not be filtered away
10:06	mi6x3m	hey, beginner clojure here, but computer scientist. I am just looking at do's details
10:06	mi6x3m	am I right that it's "do" which allows the non-strict binary tree syntax?
10:06	mi6x3m	like
10:06	mi6x3m	(a b c)
10:06	mi6x3m	(a b c d) etc.
10:12	mi6x3m	long story, short: can someone explain "do" :)
10:14	jonasen	mi6x3m: http://clojure.org/special_forms (search for "do")
10:14	mi6x3m	jonasen: was reading that
10:14	mi6x3m	I can't understand something
10:15	mi6x3m	why is it the case that program forms aren't always binary trees?
10:15	jonasen	mi6x3m: not sure I understand what you mean. But why should each form be _binary_?
10:16	Bronsa	mi6x3m: 'do is usually used when you need side-effects
10:16	mi6x3m	jonasen: (+ 1 (/ 4 2)) is in fact a binary tree
10:16	Bronsa	e.g (do (println "foo" 1)
10:16	Bronsa	e.g (do (println "foo") 1)
10:17	jonasen	mi6x3m: there are three elements in each of those lists
10:17	mi6x3m	ok, here is a better example
10:17	mi6x3m	(+ 1 2 3) should technically be (+ 1 (+ 2 3)), without do?
10:17	justin_smith	mi6x3m: not at all
10:18	jonasen	no. + can accept any number of arguments
10:18	justin_smith	variable arity is deep in the language
10:18	jonasen	not all operators are binary
10:18	mi6x3m	justin_smith: ah, okay, I see. so do is really just about evaluating a number of expressions and returning the result?
10:18	mi6x3m	no other purpose
10:19	Bronsa	yes.
10:19	justin_smith	mi6x3m: the point of do is to ignore some of the expressions in between
10:19	justin_smith	assumed for side effects
10:19	Bronsa	justin_smith: ignore is probably a bad choice of word there :)
10:19	mi6x3m	oh, okay, this clarifies it
10:19	mi6x3m	thanks
10:19	justin_smith	let, fn, catch, etc. have implicit do blocks
10:20	justin_smith	Bronsa: yeah, good call
10:20	justin_smith	ignore the return value
10:20	justin_smith	while evaluating the expression
10:20	mi6x3m	yes, this is what was confusing me
10:26	`cbp	does anyone have a merge fn for vectors handy? or a fill fn?
10:27	`cbp	like (f [1 2 3] [1 1 1 1 1]) -> [1 2 3 1 1]
10:29	mi6x3m	another question
10:29	mi6x3m	can I only use symbols for let bindings?
10:30	`cbp	symbols or destructuring
10:31	opqdonut	,(into [1 2 3] [1 1 1 1 1]) -- `cbp
10:31	clojurebot	[1 2 3 1 1 ...]
10:31	opqdonut	oh, merge, bah
10:31	`cbp	i did (concat a (drop (count a) b))
10:31	opqdonut	I thought concat :)
10:31	`cbp	stupid stress doesnt let me think
10:31	opqdonut	yeah that should do it
10:31	opqdonut	into is slightly nicer than concat because you get a vector out
10:32	`cbp	youre right
10:38	andyf	Bronsa: jonasen: Up early, or up all night? :-)
10:38	andyf	Now that Bronsa is the master of Clojure contrib libs, I am going to throw some 3rd party libs into the Eastwood crucible for additional testing.
10:50	Bronsa	andyf: I sleep 5am/2pm :P
10:51	andyf	excellent. Exactly what my schedule was in grad school :)
11:01	mi6x3m	are let bindings always proceeded (evaluated) in order?
11:01	mi6x3m	is this guranteed?
11:01	Bronsa	yes
11:02	opqdonut	hes
11:02	opqdonut	*yes
11:03	opqdonut	the documentation that tells you that: http://clojure.org/special_forms
11:04	mi6x3m	and their evaluation will be immediately before the evaluation of the rest of the do expressions?
11:04	mi6x3m	opqdonut: not everything is there :)
11:08	andyf	mi6x3m: If an expression bound by let is lazy (e.g. the results of map, filter, and many other Clojure functions that their docs say are lazy), then they will not be fully evaluated, only a bit.
11:09	michaelr526	hello
11:09	andyf	That statement is independent of whether the lazy expression occurs in a let, or anywhere else
11:10	jonasen	andyf: early? It's 6PM here :)
11:10	andyf	jonasen: Sorry, I should better remember your time zone. Finland, yes?
11:10	jonasen	yes
11:12	andyf	Holy cow, the days must be getting short there now
11:12	hyPiRion	Sun sets at 2:30 pm over here, so I guess it's the same over there
11:12	jonasen	andyf: yep.. only a few hour days here... It gets dark at 4pm
11:13	jonasen	hyPiRion: probably
11:14	andyf	If it weren't terribly expensive or dangerous, I would once like to see the sun go around above the horizon in 24 hours at one of the poles.
11:15	hyPiRion	Hurray for Fennoscandians and their crazy longitude.
11:15	hyPiRion	andyf: I would guess it would be possible in Alaska during summer?
11:16	hyPiRion	Well, that's not a pole, but you'll see the sun following a sine wave
11:17	andyf	Looks like it. I hadn't checked how much land is actually in the Arctic circle.
11:17	jonasen	andyf: hyPiRion: Alaska might be expensive but I don't think its dangerous :)
11:18	andyf	jonasen: Cool. I'll have to see if there are any decent hotels in northern Alaska, for a mid-summer visit.
11:25	andyf	Google is wonderful "arctic circle hotel" finds 3 in Finland :-)
11:29	jonasen	andyf: http://www.icehotel.com/ seems cool!
11:32	bbloom	dnolen: ping
11:39	logic_prog	how does one develop a sense of absolute control over one's emotions, to be not rattled by anything?
11:39	poppingtonic	pracice mindfulness.
11:40	poppingtonic	*practice
11:40	mi6x3m	hey, what is the difference between (nth [1 2] 1) and ([1 2] 1) ?
11:41	poppingtonic	logic_prog: When you're present to your every emotion, you can choose which to express. But it takes quite a long time to master.
11:41	poppingtonic	,(nth [1 2] 1)
11:41	clojurebot	2
11:41	poppingtonic	([1 2] 1)
11:41	poppingtonic	,([1 2] 1)
11:41	clojurebot	2
11:42	justin_smith	mi6x3m: nth works on anything sequential, [] as an IFn invokes the get method
11:42	logic_prog	poppingtonic: is there a way to practice this?
11:43	andyf	jonasen: :deprecated linter throws exception when trying to find protected methods, because of its use of Class/getMethod. Worth changing?
11:43	justin_smith	mi6x3m: get is always O(7) at worst, nth has O(n) complexity for seq
11:44	mi6x3m	justin_smith: how come?
11:44	mi6x3m	wouth nth just iterate?
11:44	justin_smith	for a seq, yes
11:44	mi6x3m	okay
11:44	justin_smith	for [] it calls get ([] is actually a special hash for fast lookup / tail insertion)
11:44	jonasen	andyf: yes, I think we should use getDeclaredMethod instead
11:45	poppingtonic	logic_prog: why do you want so much control?
11:45	andyf	jonasen: I'll test with that local change for a while and see how things go.
11:46	logic_prog	poppingtonic: it's a matter of self control
11:46	logic_prog	to avoid being emotionally manipulated by others
11:46	logic_prog	it's impossible to lead if one can not even control one's own emotions
11:46	poppingtonic	Then write. About what makes you feel whatever emotions you notice. When you do this, you'll realize what your triggers are. The things that make you happy, for instance, are the triggers you should be keeping track of, so you know when it's appropriate to express the emotion.
11:47	logic_prog	so it's like a tracing debugger
11:47	logic_prog	you add "println" 's all over your life
11:47	logic_prog	then when you feel a certain emotion,you look at th elog file and be like "what happened before this emotion"
11:48	poppingtonic	Remember the dictum "whatever is measured gets improved"? Consider writing about your emotions a somewhat-contrived instance of that.
11:48	poppingtonic	logic_prog: sort-of like that.
11:48	justin_smith	there are also some heuristics
11:49	justin_smith	urgency - someone telling you you don't have a choice
11:49	poppingtonic	hmmm
11:49	poppingtonic	O
11:49	poppingtonic	sorry
11:50	logic_prog	lol
11:50	logic_prog	so basically ignore everyone!
11:50	mi6x3m	is the gathering "operator" & a macro?
11:50	poppingtonic	What's the simplest way to lazily write data to a file?
11:50	mi6x3m	or just sugar
11:50	logic_prog	isn't that a bad idea?
11:51	logic_prog	when I write ot a file, I want persistence
11:51	justin_smith	mi6x3m: a part of the destructuring special form
11:51	logic_prog	I'd be rather unhappy if clojure is like "yeah, I'm going to pretend to write to the file, but not actually write to it"
11:51	andyf	logic_prog: Learn to rationally evaluate whether someone else's opinion of you matters. In most cases, it is their problem if they are trying to get to you, not yours. I'd say it is OK to be rattled by someone important in your life.
11:51	justin_smith	mi6x3m: http://clojure.org/special_forms#Special Forms--Binding Forms (Destructuring)
11:53	justin_smith	that link pasted weird
11:53	poppingtonic	logic_prog: I mean in the sense that I'm programmatically creating files according to some specification. I don't want them to exist before they're absolutely needed. Like a fog of war. I'm making a randomly-generated text-adventure game.
11:58	poppingtonic	A file describes a particular location as a map. When a player is (= n 2) hops away from that location, the file describing it is created. My specification is in development, and very incomplete.
12:07	andyf	jonasen: Looks like getMethod searches superclasses and other implemented interfaces for a method name, but getDeclaredMethod does not. Ugh. Maybe I'll try doing both, only using getDeclaredMethod if getMethod throws a NoSuchMethodException
12:12	Bronsa	andyf: FWIW clojure.reflect recursively uses getDeclaredMethod on the Class ancestors
12:13	andyf	Bronsa: Thanks for the pointer. I'll try that out.
12:32	ghadishayban	Bronsa: I updated the tail clearing patch to clear interop invocations as well
12:33	Bronsa	ghadishayban: saw that thanks, I'm going to push the update soon
12:35	ghadishayban	Bronsa: I'm not sure it's the ideal approach right now, Christophe has some interesting ideas about emission. But it works right now, and makes straight reducers super fast.
12:39	Bronsa	ghadishayban: sure -- I'll try to experiment a bit with alternative solutions too but in the meantime yours works. No big deal to revert a couple of line changes if a better solution comes up
12:42	ghadishayban	Bronsa: heh nice! I am really super excited to start experimenting with t.emitter.jvm over the next few weeks
12:43	Bronsa	ghadishayban: I see t.a.jvm/t.e.jvm as a good way to experiment with those compiler changes, it's so much faster/easier to change things and immediately see the result compared to hacking on Compiler.java
12:43	ghadishayban	Bronsa: tell me about it. I have been working on and off on that patch for a month
12:47	Bronsa	ghadishayban: just wondering, shouldn't your patch handle keyword invokes/new calls too?
12:51	ghadishayban	Bronsa: I think that the patch should only handle the minimum amount - jumping from one frame of execution to the next. keyword invoke (even in tail position) just grabs a val and dumps it on the stack - not really long lived.
12:51	ghadishayban	Bronsa: as for new -- I haven't explored that too much but I'd love to be proven lazy by a good test case
12:55	Bronsa	ghadishayban: you're probably right regarding the kw-invoke case, I'll try and see if I can find a case where not clearing this before new causes the issue
12:56	ghadishayban	Bronsa: sorry for the shit ton of jira notifications, I thought edited notifications would be somehow debounced =/
13:15	logic_prog	does anyone fucking unerstand how deletinos in red black trees work? I'm trying to understand Clojure's persistent data structures; and I get rb-tree insertion, but rb-tree deletion is fucking confusing with red, black, double black, and negative black nodes
13:17	dnolen	core.async + om is solid gold
13:22	logic_prog	what is om?
13:24	kmicu	https://github.com/swannodette/om
13:25	dnolen	om + core.async https://gist.github.com/swannodette/7915826
13:26	dnolen	logic_prog: it's a bridge to Facebook's React optimized for ClojureScript
13:32	xeqi	dnolen: is om 0.1.0 published or do I need clone/install
13:35	meoblast001	as far as web frameworks in Clojure, is Luminus a pretty popular one? if not, what good alternatives are there?
13:36	dnolen	xeqi: clone/install, want to play with this a bit more before pushing it out - it's getting close!
13:37	SegFaultAX	meoblast001: Luminus isn't really a web framework so much as a set of default libraries with some obligatory boilerplate taken care of.
13:38	SegFaultAX	meoblast001: That's a feature by the way, not a drawback.
13:38	SegFaultAX	Pedestal and Caribou are also worth looking into, though.
13:38	meoblast001	okay. i'm looking over it and it passes my test as something i want to look into more
13:39	meoblast001	but if it's something that is a dead project or something the entire clojure community hates, i don't even want to start looking
13:39	meoblast001	so it should be fine to carry forward?
13:40	SegFaultAX	meoblast001: To reiterate, Luminus is just a set of sane defaults.
13:40	SegFaultAX	And those defaults are the de facto libraries in the Clojure web community.
13:40	meoblast001	okay. thanks
13:41	SegFaultAX	meoblast001: Try this `lein new luminus test-app && tree test-app`
13:41	SegFaultAX	meoblast001: You'll see there isn't very much to it at all.
13:41	meoblast001	yeah
13:41	SegFaultAX	I'd also strongly recommend you take a look at Liberator.
13:43	meoblast001	SegFaultAX: on the topic of sane. is clojurescript something sane or just a toy project?
13:46	SegFaultAX	meoblast001: I can't really speak to that from personal experience, but it appears to be stable enough to do real work with.
13:47	SegFaultAX	meoblast001: All of the cljs core team idles in this channel though. so you might direct your questions at them.
13:47	SegFaultAX	dnolen: poke ^
13:48	dnolen	meoblast001: not a even remotely close to a toy
13:48	meoblast001	ah, cool
13:54	meoblast001	ouch
13:54	meoblast001	when i do lein new luminus guestbook, it creates a project named luminus in a directory named guestbook
14:01	munderwo	Hi all. Im doing some dev in the repl, and want to reload the code from a namespace. at the moment I'm doing (use 'bob.core) at the start. But how to I get it to reload so I can run my changes?
14:06	matthavener	munderwo: i think you can do (use 'bob.core :reload)
14:07	munderwo	ahh cool.. thanks matthavener
14:07	matthavener	munderwo: you also might check out tools.namespace https://github.com/clojure/tools.namespace
14:07	matthavener	(refresh) will then reload all your namespaces nicely
14:44	noprompt	dnolen: is om cool to "beta" test?
14:44	dnolen	noprompt: getting really close, working on TodoMVC right now and it seems pretty rocking so far
14:45	noprompt	dnolen: nice. looking forward to it. hopefully a version on clojars soon?
14:45	dnolen	noprompt: yep
14:46	noprompt	such good news
14:55	rovar	how do I get frodo in my classpath so that I can load it?
14:55	rovar	I'm trying to follow the instructions at https://github.com/james-henderson/lein-frodo
14:55	rovar	frodo seems to work as a plugin, but it is not present when I run lein repl
15:20	poppingt`	Do watches keep track of metadata in refs?
15:21	poppingt`	rovar: is it in clojars?
15:21	rovar	poppingt`, it is: jarohen/lein-frodo
15:21	rovar	however, I have it included in my project as a plugin
15:21	rovar	because it is..
15:22	rovar	however.. some instructions also mention (requiring) it
15:22	rovar	which fails.
15:26	poppingt`	do you have Nomad installed?
15:28	rovar	i unno, I assume it would pull in nomad when I referenced frodo
15:41	gfredericks	dnolen: the docstrings for fd/+ and fd/* don't specify the arg order; is that worth a jira ticket?
15:41	dnolen	gfredericks: hrm, what do you mean?
15:41	gfredericks	I still don't know how core lib maintainers prefer to handle tiny doc changes
15:42	gfredericks	dnolen: every time I go to use it I can't remember if the sum is first or last
15:42	andrei	Should there be a huge performance difference between starting a repl with 'lein repl' vs just running 'clojure-1.5'?
15:43	gfredericks	andrei: what does running clojure-1.5 do?
15:43	andrei	gfredericks: that's just the clojure binary that my distribution installed
15:43	coventry	andrei: Do you mean in startup time? lein repl starts two jvms by default.
15:43	andrei	gjl_package=clojure-1.5
15:43	andrei	gjl_main="clojure.main"
15:43	andrei	source /usr/share/java-config-2/launcher/launcher.bash
15:43	andrei	coventry I mean runtime
15:44	dnolen	gfredericks: fixing
15:44	andrei	http://0xab.com/pi-clojure.clj
15:44	andrei	Takes 4.7 seconds in the repl that 'lein repl' sets up
15:45	gfredericks	dnolen: cool, thanks!
15:45	andrei	1.6 seconds in the repl that 'clojure-1.5' sets up
15:45	dnolen	gfredericks: https://github.com/clojure/core.logic/commit/9b9b3a8bb87ab5ccac2491fb5fdd80af18c47847
15:46	andrei	My profiles.clj file is empty ( {} ) and I'm strating running 'lein repl' in a directy that is not a clojure project
15:46	gfredericks	dnolen: perfect
15:46	hyPiRion	andrei: yes, should be faster to run clojure-1.5. `lein repl` starts up two JVMs, whereas clojure-1.5 starts up just one
15:46	coventry	andrei: Might be a tiered compilation issue. Try 'LEIN_JVM_OPTS= lein repl'
15:46	coventry	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/wiki/Faster#tiered-compilation
15:47	andrei	hyPiRion: That's startup time, I mean runtime of an algorithm
15:47	justin_smith	andrei: that's where tiered compilation comes in
15:47	andrei	coventry: That did it
15:47	justin_smith	there are different optimization settings
15:47	andrei	Oh, ok. Is there some doc that I should have read that would have pointed me in this direction?
15:48	hyPiRion	andrei: ah. Well, if you're on the newest leiningen version, add in :jvm-opts [] in your project.clj or do as coventry proposed
15:48	justin_smith	andrei: if you use criterium it gripes if you don't have optimizations on
15:48	hyPiRion	(for older version, you'd have to do :jvm-opts ^:replace [])
15:49	gfredericks	(inc dnolen)
15:49	lazybot	⇒ 13
15:49	andrei	Thanks for the help everyone!
15:49	andrei	Does this mean that there exist options which will produce even faster code?
15:50	coventry	andrei: Check out the leiningen wiki page I linked above. Don't know whether any of the other suggestions will help, though.
15:50	andrei	coventry: Will do. Thanks!
15:51	hyPiRion	faster is relative. You could check out tiered compilation or tweak the garbage collector settings
15:51	hyPiRion	andrei: Generally http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/technotes/guides/vm/performance-enhancements-7.html is a nice webpage for performance
15:52	andrei	hyPiRion: Awesome, thanks!
15:52	hyPiRion	it doesn't tell you how to tune them properly, but at least it tells you what's available
15:54	andrei	If I wanted to extend basic numeric operations in clojure, but the multimethod way is far too slow
15:54	andrei	Where would I look?
15:54	andrei	I'm willing to spend time learning and implementing whichever approach will produce the fastest code
15:54	andrei	However low-level or involved it is in any language
15:54	amalloy	andrei: you can't really do it. just define a new function with a name that's different from +, which is what you use for adding your quasi-numbers
15:55	andrei	amalloy: Sadly that won't be sufficient in my case, the name has to be the same
15:55	TEttinger	you can redefine + can't you?
15:56	amalloy	TEttinger: you can't make the + that some other namespace uses behave like you redefined +
15:56	andrei	TEttinger: If I redefine it in one file in a project, how does that carry over to all of the other files in the project?
15:56	andrei	amalloy: Oh, I see what you mean. That's fine.
15:57	andrei	amalloy: I'm willing to put some use line at the top of each file which needs this feature
15:57	TEttinger	what is the extension for?
15:57	andrei	amalloy: So if I redefine + I can get the same performance that clojure's implementation of + gets?
15:58	TEttinger	probably not? I haven't tried, but it might be helpful to read the clojure source
15:58	andrei	TEttinger: I do research in AI/ML and I regularly perform nonstandard interpretation of numeric programs
15:58	amalloy	no, you can't, because clojure.core/+ can emit a single bytecode operation when it's working with primitives
15:58	TEttinger	neat, andrei
15:58	andrei	amalloy: And there's no way to get a user function to do the same?
15:58	amalloy	obviously you won't have primitives, you'll have these weird made-up numbers you want to invent
15:58	amalloy	no jvm bytecode knows how to add them
15:59	andrei	amalloy: Sure, but I'm willing to pay the cost for 1 branch
15:59	andrei	amalloy: For every math operation
15:59	amalloy	i don't see what you're getting at
16:00	amalloy	you'll have some Object which represents a number in your program, and some function named + that you want to use to add it
16:00	TEttinger	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L936
16:00	andrei	amalloy: I want to mix my numbers and standard numbers
16:00	amalloy	an Object, no matter what it contains or how you work with it, will be much more heavy-weight than a primitive
16:00	andrei	amalloy: When both operands to + are primitives I want the old behaviour + speed with the cost of 1 branch
16:00	andrei	amalloy: Like so: https://github.com/abarbu/AD/blob/master/AD.scm
16:01	amalloy	mmmmmm, you can probably do that
16:01	andrei	TEttinger: Thanks!
16:01	TEttinger	andrei, you will notice some fun stuff right away
16:02	TEttinger	like the more-than-two-args version being much heavier
16:02	andrei	TEttinger: Yeah.. that's pretty common. I'll do the standard trick of writing a macro to expand them out
16:03	amalloy	it's going to be pretty tricky to tell whether the operands are primitives, though
16:03	andrei	amalloy: Oh?
16:04	TEttinger	because of auto-boxing?
16:04	amalloy	you can't introspect that at runtime, because it's a decision made at compile time; and i don't know of a way for a macro to ask a question like "given the current &env, what is the type of expression e?"
16:05	andrei	amalloy: There's no runtime 'primitive?' function?
16:05	amalloy	no
16:05	coventry	typed clojure gives you no leverage there?
16:05	amalloy	all functions receive Object args
16:05	amalloy	the way clojure.core/+ works is it unconditionally expands to (RT/add x y), and later a special compiler pass replaces that with a single bytecode op iff x and y are both primitives of the same type
16:05	andyf	amalloy: Some Clojure fns receive primitive args, if they have <= 4 and are type-hinted, yes?
16:06	andyf	amalloy: Not that that invalidates any of your previous statements on the difficulty of mixing boxed and unboxed at run-time.
16:06	amalloy	andyf: sure
16:06	amalloy	but i don't think you can use that to implement "primitive?"
16:07	amalloy	because (defn primitive? ([^long x] true) ([^double x] true) ([x] false)) will call the long version if x is statically known to be a boxed Long, i think
16:07	amalloy	i'm not sure about that though
16:07	clojurebot	Excuse me?
16:08	justin_smith	https://github.com/ztellman/primitive-math what about the checks primitive-math does?
16:08	justin_smith	it gives reflection warnings if boxing of numbers happens
16:10	TEttinger	justin_smith, that might be key.
16:10	TEttinger	https://github.com/ztellman/primitive-math/blob/master/src/primitive_math/Primitives.java he uses java to implement that part
16:10	justin_smith	oh, interesting
16:11	andrei	Ah, that looks like a good way to go
16:11	TEttinger	and then he wraps it in clojure
16:12	Bronsa	https://github.com/ztellman/primitive-math/blob/master/src/primitive_math/Primitives.java#L212 how is this valid in Java?
16:12	TEttinger	https://github.com/ztellman/primitive-math/blob/master/src/primitive_math.clj looks pretty simple, but the README shows the limitations
16:12	justin_smith	I learned about primitive-math in the "Clojure High Performance Programming" book. Good, dense with info, though pricy for the short page count.
16:12	andrei	justin_smith: Awesome. Thanks! I'll check it out
16:12	amalloy	Bronsa: empty statements are allowed
16:12	Bronsa	amalloy: didn't know that, thanks
16:13	amalloy	although i'm a little surprised to see that statements are allowed at the top level of a class declaration
16:13	amalloy	like, ;;;; would be valid a lot of places, i just didn't realize this was one of them
16:14	Bronsa	isn't int foo; a statement too?
16:14	dsrx	,;;;;
16:14	amalloy	certainly
16:14	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
16:14	amalloy	oh, i see
16:14	Bronsa	:)
16:16	andrei	In https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L936, why are there two versions of every math operator?
16:17	andrei	A quoted one and an unquoted one
16:17	amalloy	Bronsa: in a class declaration those actually aren't statements, exactly
16:17	amalloy	check out http://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se7/html/jls-8.html#jls-8.1.6, where ; is explicitly allowed
16:17	TEttinger	one auto-promotes ints to bigInts
16:17	TEttinger	andrei ^
16:17	TEttinger	,(+ 1111111111111111111111111111111111 11111)
16:17	clojurebot	1111111111111111111111111111122222N
16:17	TEttinger	wat
16:18	Bronsa	amalloy: I see
16:18	amalloy	TEttinger: 1111111111111111111111111111111111 is already a bigint
16:18	TEttinger	##(+ 1111111111111111111111111111111111 11111)
16:18	lazybot	⇒ 1111111111111111111111111111122222N
16:18	TEttinger	oh
16:18	TEttinger	herp
16:19	TEttinger	##(reduce + (repeat 100 16rfffffff))
16:19	lazybot	⇒ 26843545500
16:19	TEttinger	gah
16:19	amalloy	&(reduce * (repeat 100 16rfffffff))
16:19	lazybot	java.lang.ArithmeticException: integer overflow
16:19	amalloy	ez
16:19	TEttinger	##(reduce +' (repeat 100 16rfffffffffffffff))
16:19	lazybot	⇒ 115292150460684697500N
16:20	dav	What is the purpose of 'do' given that if you just put the forms one after the other it seems to work just as well as without the do-statement?
16:20	TEttinger	I just woke up haha
16:20	amalloy	dav: (if x (do y z) n)
16:20	andrei	TEttinger: Thanks!
16:20	TEttinger	dav, it's very useful when you have stuff like if, things that only allow one form... also when you want to return something after calculating something else
16:21	amalloy	imagine (if x y z n). how do those group?
16:21	dav	amalloy: so you would never do (let [..] (do ...)) ?
16:21	amalloy	dav: well, "never" is a strong word. i could imagine doing it on occasion
16:21	amalloy	to emphasize side effects or something
16:21	amalloy	but you never need to
16:22	TEttinger	,(do (print "whee ") 0)
16:22	clojurebot	whee 0
16:22	TEttinger	,(do (print "whee "))
16:22	clojurebot	whee
16:22	TEttinger	oh that's interesting, clojurebot doesn't show the nil?
16:22	amalloy	,(do (do (do (do 'whop))))
16:22	clojurebot	whop
16:22	dav	TEttinger / amalloy - thx. is there a reason to use when rather than if other than for clarity ?
16:23	TEttinger	when allows multiple forms
16:23	TEttinger	other than that, not really? it is clearer
16:24	Bronsa	dav: some (myself included) use when instead of if when there's no else branch, others only use when for side-effects
16:24	also	,(macroexpand '(when x a b c))
16:24	clojurebot	(if x (do a b c))
16:24	TEttinger	when returns nil if the condition is false, so it can be handy when passed to some fns that expect nil rather than false
16:24	dav	amalloy / TEttinger / Bronsa - ok i think I have the clear picture. thanks!
16:25	amalloy	TEttinger: wat
16:25	amalloy	that last one makes little sense
16:25	Bronsa	TEttinger ##(if false 1)
16:25	lazybot	⇒ nil
16:25	TEttinger	I am fairly certain I encountered one in the std lib...
16:26	amalloy	obviously there are functions that care about nil vs false, but that doesn't distinguish if from when at all
16:26	TEttinger	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/keep
16:27	TEttinger	sure, it just saves typing nil as an else statement
16:27	amalloy	did you...read what Bronsa just sent you?
16:27	TEttinger	oh herp
16:27	TEttinger	that won't work for multiple forms though, you need.... do !
16:34	technomancy	clojurebot: when?
16:34	clojurebot	when is for side effects
16:34	Bronsa	>:(
16:36	amalloy	if technomancy and clojurebot both think this independently and without any collusion it must be true!
16:38	hyPiRion	clojurebot: technomancy?
16:38	clojurebot	technomancy codes while wearing gravity boots to increase the blood flow to the face transplant he got after discovering the world does not treat build tool creators kindly
16:39	hyPiRion	oh, I've not seen that before
16:46	also	clojurebot: clojurebot?
16:46	clojurebot	"More human than human" is our motto.
16:47	bitemyapp	LOL
16:47	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: I hadn't seen that one before.
16:48	also	clojurebot: lazybot?
16:48	clojurebot	lazybot is echo ~lazybot
16:48	bitemyapp	I happen to agree with clojurebot and technomancy. when is for side-effects.
16:48	also	why is that?
16:49	tim__	, (when (:a {:a 42}) "we have a")
16:49	clojurebot	"we have a"
16:49	tim__	no side effects needed.
16:51	SegFaultAX	It's a matter of convention.
16:52	SegFaultAX	It's not like you /have/ to use it for side effecting code, obviously.
16:53	SegFaultAX	But since if and if-not don't require an alternative branch, when and when-not are used for side-effecting code by convention.
16:53	tbaldridge	ah, good point. Forgot about the optional branch
17:12	cYmen	Since when does if not require an alternative branch?
17:12	Bronsa	since always?
17:13	cYmen	huh
17:13	cYmen	odd...wonder where I got that idea, then
17:14	also	cYmen: i was confused by the first example for kibit: https://github.com/jonase/kibit
17:17	cYmen	hm...can't remember...maybe :)
17:22	cYmen	Well, I checked out the 4clojure source and now have a local copy running.
17:22	cYmen	Now, what to do. :p
17:28	cYmen	Fuck...
17:45	logic_prog	how do I get format in clojurescript?
17:45	logic_prog	what library/namespace is it part of?
17:46	rovar	java string?
17:46	rovar	,(find-doc format)
17:46	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.core$format cannot be cast to java.lang.String>
17:46	rovar	,'(find-doc format)
17:46	clojurebot	(find-doc format)
17:46	also	logic_prog: i don't think it exists. javascript doesn't provide format
17:47	rovar	oh.. I didn't read the word clojurescript
17:47	rovar	yea.. it's a native
17:47	justin_smith	(doc format)
17:47	clojurebot	"([fmt & args]); Formats a string using java.lang.String.format, see java.util.Formatter for format string syntax"
17:48	logic_prog	non-existence is useful
17:48	logic_prog	thanks!
17:49	rovar	so how do people work with local-repo?
17:50	rovar	I find it odd how poor the support in lein is for compiling dependencies for other projects
17:54	dnolen	ok the fact that every node in the om tree has its path is pretty awesome
17:54	justin_smith	rovar: I usually just run lein install in each project, without using local-repo
17:55	cYmen	hm...can't seem to install cider
17:55	cYmen	fails to download :/
17:55	justin_smith	yeah, known issue with the emacs archive
17:55	cYmen	but fairly recent, I take it?
17:55	justin_smith	not a cider bug, a bug in the archive server
17:57	cYmen	but the issue is new?
17:57	cYmen	because I think it installed just fine on three machines a couple of weeks ago
17:58	rovar	justin_smith, when you use that approach, how do you reference one project from the other?
17:58	justin_smith	in project.clj
17:59	justin_smith	as I would any other dependency
17:59	rovar	does install put it into the ~/.m2?
17:59	justin_smith	yeah
18:36	sorenmacbeth	is there already a fn that does (interleave (keys m) (vals m))?
18:36	justin_smith	(mapcat m) ?
18:37	justin_smith	,(mapcat {:a 0 :b 1})
18:37	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core/map>
18:37	justin_smith	err
18:37	justin_smith	,(mapcat identity {:a 0 :b 1})
18:37	clojurebot	(:a 0 :b 1)
18:38	rukor	(flatten (seq m))
18:38	justin_smith	~flatten
18:38	clojurebot	flatten is rarely the right answer. Suppose you need to use a list as your "base type", for example. Usually you only want to flatten a single level, and in that case you're better off with concat. Or, better still, use mapcat to produce a sequence that's shaped right to begin with.
18:39	sorenmacbeth	flatten doesn't do what I want
18:39	justin_smith	,(flatten {:a 0 :b [1 2] :c 3})
18:39	sorenmacbeth	yes, like clojurebot says
18:39	clojurebot	()
18:39	rukor	right
18:40	sorenmacbeth	,(mapcat identity {"foo" [:bar]})
18:40	clojurebot	("foo" [:bar])
18:40	sorenmacbeth	yeah, that's what I need
18:40	sorenmacbeth	cheers
18:40	coventry	,(apply concat {1 2 3 4})
18:40	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4)
18:40	sorenmacbeth	,(apply concat {"foo" [:bar]})
18:40	clojurebot	("foo" [:bar])
18:40	justin_smith	I wonder what the mapcat identity / apply concat tradeoff comes down to
18:41	coventry	Probably the mapcat version is faster.
18:41	hyPiRion	it's the other way around
18:41	hyPiRion	mapcat is just (apply concat (apply map f coll))
18:42	coventry	Huh.
18:42	justin_smith	cool, thanks hyPiRion
18:42	seangrove	,(reduce concat (seq {"foo" [:bar]})) ; just for fun
18:42	clojurebot	["foo" [:bar]]
18:42	hyPiRion	(apply concat coll) would be faster, if performance was an issue
18:43	hyPiRion	,(reduce into [] {1 2 3 4}) ; could probably be a competitor
18:43	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4]
18:46	justin_smith	(persistent! (reduce (fn [vc [k v]] (-> vc (conj! k) (conj! v))) (transient []) {1 2 3 4}))
18:46	justin_smith	likely the big winner
18:49	sorenmacbeth	thanks pals
18:49	sorenmacbeth	gonna go with (apply concat amap) for now
18:49	justin_smith	good call
18:49	hyPiRion	would be surprising if that's your bottleneck anyway
18:50	justin_smith	yeah, most likely not a bottleneck
18:50	justin_smith	but it is fun to bytecode-cycle-golf
19:03	nkozo	somebody knows how to make a _bidirectional_ binding in seesaw?
19:21	gfredericks	justin_smith: man it'd be fun if there were a expr->bytecode-cycles
19:22	gfredericks	what's the easiest way to get such a thing?
19:22	gfredericks	probably optimizing jvms would make the results irrelevant anyhow :/
19:23	andyf_	gfredericks: What is this bytecode-cycles you refer to?
19:24	gfredericks	welp
19:24	gfredericks	yunno.
19:24	gfredericks	number of bytecode instructions executed during the evaluation of an expression?
19:26	andyf_	gfredericks: Yeah, I'm pretty sure most of the code that you care how fast it runs does get optimized by the JIT.
19:27	dsrx	,(apply concat [[1 2] [3 4] [5 6]])
19:27	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5 ...)
19:28	dsrx	,(doc mapcat)
19:28	clojurebot	"([f & colls]); Returns the result of applying concat to the result of applying map to f and colls. Thus function f should return a collection."
19:32	hyPiRion	Hrm
19:32	hyPiRion	,(coll? "hey")
19:32	clojurebot	false
19:33	TEttinger	hyPiRion, that's interesting
19:33	hyPiRion	I guess it should return a seqable item instead
19:33	hyPiRion	,(mapcat identity ["foo" "bar"])
19:33	clojurebot	(\f \o \o \b \a ...)
19:51	lalala	is there anyone who has used Pedestal on a project who would be willing to tell me about their experience using it?
19:52	dnolen	TodoMVC in progress - https://github.com/swannodette/todomvc/tree/om/labs/architecture-examples/om
19:55	also	dnolen: awesome!
19:58	dnolen	representing your UI as EDN rocks so hard
20:01	also	i've been avoiding all the javascript template libraries...they all feel wrong
20:01	rovar	I rather like dommy
20:02	rovar	and I'm generally picky about that sort of thing
20:02	dnolen	I do not believe in templates anymore
20:02	dnolen	or string based ones anyway
20:06	bitemyapp	god I am exhausted.
20:07	andyf_	god already knew that
20:07	bitemyapp	andyf_: teaching people is tiring.
20:07	bitemyapp	talking is tiring
20:07	bitemyapp	thinking is tiring
20:08	andyf_	Teaching people who aren't learning very well? I find teaching people who are paying attention and interested in learning invigorating.
20:08	bitemyapp	andyf_: well it's fun, but you still have to repeat yourself some.
20:08	bitemyapp	andyf_: but I've noticed a difference in how draining it is depending on speed of uptake.
20:09	andyf_	What are you teaching?
20:09	bitemyapp	andyf_: Haskell!
20:10	andyf_	Ah, came to the #clojure channel to relax your mind, eh? :-)
20:11	bitemyapp	andyf_: I just have a lot of people I really like here.
20:11	pdk	#clojure
20:11	pdk	a place for friends
20:11	bitemyapp	andyf_: there are really nice people in #haskell too, I just don't know as many of them
20:11	bitemyapp	pdk: lol!
20:25	rovar	does #clojure have a history somewhere?
20:25	rovar	I need to rediscover a url that someone gave me
20:25	coventry	http://clojure-log.n01se.net/ http://logs.lazybot.org/
20:25	Bronsa	rovar: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/
20:25	clojurebot	Excuse me?
20:26	Bronsa	mph.
20:26	Bronsa	(inc coventry)
20:26	lazybot	⇒ 5
20:26	coventry	The n01se.net has gone down at times, so I think it may be incomplete, but it has the better interface.
20:26	coventry	*.net one
20:28	rovar	this was it : https://github.com/halgari/clojure-conj-2013-core.async-examples/blob/master/src/clojure_conj_talk/core.clj
20:28	andyf_	Bronsa: I am running into some cases where Eastwood analyzing multiple namespaces in a single run causes exceptions with some namespaces, but when I do those namespaces by themselves, there is no exception. Have you seen such things before? Would you be interested in looking at an example of this?
20:28	rovar	I need to tell google to increase the pagerank of that page
20:29	Bronsa	andyf_: I've seen such things before and am horrified at the thought of debugging that again.
20:29	Bronsa	but please, let me know what's failing
20:30	andyf_	Bronsa: I'll file one as an Eastwood issue, since it might be specific to how Eastwood is using tools.analyzer. Should I try to minimize the source code size first?
20:31	Bronsa	andyf_: but first, make sure you are using the last snapshot of tools.analyzer.jvm && have lein install'ed the master version of eastwood, I really thought i had that fixed
20:32	Bronsa	andyf_: file the issue for now, so I can look into that. If you want you can try to minimize the failing source code later :P
20:33	andyf_	OK, wiping my .m2 out first, git pull'ing, making sure everything up to date before filing the issue.
20:35	bitemyapp	andyf_: kind of you :)
20:37	Bronsa	I just went in a hurry to the kitchen with a feeling I had something really urgent to do there.
20:37	Bronsa	But then I didn't.
20:37	andyf_	Dinnertime? :-)
20:37	Bronsa	It's 2.35AM here
20:37	bitemyapp	Bronsa: 1737
20:38	andyf_	Bronsa: You are going to hate this one even more, because it requires 3 namespaces to give the exception on the 3rd one. Any 2 of them gives no exception :-(
20:39	Bronsa	duh.
20:39	bitemyapp	andyf_: admittedly, you could prove that conclusively with a generative test.
20:41	seangrove	technomancy: Is this kind of 503 error on an initial clojure push sermi-normal for Heroku? https://www.refheap.com/c654aa6acc97e8f9fbe270e78
20:41	Bronsa	andyf_: does it involve a defprotocol?
20:42	andyf_	I think the crux of the issue is a Java import in an earlier namespace, with a type-hint on a function return value for a Java class, and then the function is called in a later namespace that doesn't have the import. But that is a guess at this point.
20:42	Bronsa	mh.
20:42	seangrove	technomancy: It gets a little bit further along each time I push it though
20:42	andyf_	The exception is that the Java class is not found during the :deprecations linter.
20:44	andyf_	Sorry, the exception is during the analyzer, not the linter.
20:44	andyf_	Almost done reproducing with fresh checkouts.
20:44	Bronsa	yeah, doesn't sound like what I thought it would be.
20:44	Bronsa	damn.
20:46	andyf_	Oh, I also saw a line of code in the Seesaw lib today where it does (extend (fn-call-that-returns-class) ...)
20:46	andyf_	Or a fn call that returned something, maybe it wasn't a class. Anyway, it wasn't just a symbol.
20:47	andyf_	I'll file a TANAL ticket for that one for consideration.
20:47	Bronsa	ok
20:49	dnolen	so om pretty must leaves JS client side frameworks in completely dust as far as rendering performance
20:49	dnolen	and instead of pointless models - just data
20:54	akhudek	dnolen: om looks really neat, looking forward to giving it a try
20:55	dnolen	akhudek: I'm pretty psyched about it
20:59	andyf_	Bronsa: The 3-namespace issue: https://github.com/jonase/eastwood/issues/28
21:00	Bronsa	ok, will look into that thanks
21:06	seangrove	Well, that only took ~15 `git push heroku master` attempts.
21:06	bitemyapp	good to see relying on magic is paying off for some people.
21:06	bitemyapp	I bet you could script that.
21:07	bitemyapp	I'm pretty sure that's how keynesianism works. When magic isn't working, layer on more magic.
21:07	TEttinger	magic/more magic switch
21:13	andyf_	you have to get it working correctly once before you can automate.
21:24	bitemyapp	andyf_: false.
21:26	SegFaultAX	bitemyapp: (iterate magic (magic))
21:26	SegFaultAX	(drop-while not-working? (iterate magic (magic))) to be precise.
22:02	logic_prog_	is there anything like slingshot (try+, catch+) for clojurescript ?
22:12	rukor	how do you represent this.props.children from react.js in om?
22:17	solussd	om?
22:18	bitemyapp	solussd: it's a library.
22:19	solussd	ah
22:19	rukor	https://github.com/swannodette/om
22:20	solussd	oh neat, fancy new :include-macros option in require
22:20	seangrove	Actually what caused the new :include-macros in cljs in the first place, heh
22:22	bitemyapp	seangrove: what?
22:22	seangrove	bitemyapp: om is what pushed dnolen over the line to add the :include-macros option to cljs, I believe
22:23	bitemyapp	seangrove: that validates my suspicion that increasing his pain is the way to force a painkiller.
22:23	rukor	haha
22:24	seangrove	bitemyapp: Any easy way to get korma to play nice with dev and heroku?
22:24	seangrove	I struggle with this every time I push a new app
22:24	bitemyapp	seangrove: I can think of several.
22:25	bitemyapp	most of them involve an environment variable and weavejester's library.
22:27	dsrx	logic_prog_: (try* (throw "world") (catch e (js/alert (str "hello " e))))
22:27	bitemyapp	seangrove: if you get specific (you need to configure a database URI that needs to vary between dev and heroku? simultaneously?) I can be more helpful.
22:27	seangrove	bitemyapp: Well, I always struggle to get korma to connect to Heroku's pg. Seems like there's some incantation that gets the ssl stuff to work properly
22:28	bbloom	dnolen: have you succeeded in reproducing the (goofy) todo mvc toy yet? curious to see how your wrapper scales to there & beyond
22:28	dsrx	logic_prog_: try in cljs is just a macro for try* that does type dispatching, try* maps pretty directly to try/catch in JS
22:28	logic_prog_	dsrx: noted, thanks
22:29	bitemyapp	seangrove: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/13175655/trouble-connecting-to-postgresql-db-on-heroku-with-korma-clojure this looks promising.
22:29	seangrove	bitemyapp: Heh, if browser history were like ant trails, that'd be a very thick line
22:30	seangrove	If you haven't heard of the challenges, don't worry about it, I'll try to narrow it down more
22:31	Bronsa	yet another bug fixed. I can now go to sleep satisfied.
22:31	bbloom	dsrx: try* is an implementation detail
22:31	bbloom	use (catch :default ...)
22:32	Bronsa	bbloom: an implementation detail.. that doesn't even exist anymore :P
22:32	bbloom	Bronsa: oh right, i forgot. even better
22:32	bbloom	logic_prog_: see https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/test/cljs/cljs/core_test.cljs#L480-L482
22:32	bitemyapp	seangrove: I understand the problem, you just need to default and vary some stuff between dev/prov in a config.clj from environment variables.
22:32	bitemyapp	seangrove: I've solved this many times before, demonstrated ways to structure it, etc.
22:32	bitemyapp	I'd do virtually the exact same thing in Haskell too.
22:36	xeqi	dnolen: do you have a gist of the om based todo?
22:37	coventry	xeqi: https://github.com/swannodette/todomvc/tree/om/labs/architecture-examples/om
22:37	xeqi	coventry: thanks
22:39	bbloom	nice
22:40	bbloom	looks like it still has a long way to go though
23:08	logic_prog_	how do I write "document.documentElement.style.overflow = 'hidden'; " in cljs? I want to disable scrollbars
23:22	dsrx	I've got this project.clj, and leiningen wants to pull down clojure 1.2.1 https://gist.github.com/tomjakubowski/8ecc91adea9245c22d0a . Is there a way I can see which dependency has clojure 1.2.1 as a dep without waiting for all the dependencies to download (i'm on a slow connection at the moment)?
23:23	logic_prog_	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7836204/chrome-fullscreen-api <-- how do I make this work with clojurescript
23:24	rukor	logic_prog_: (-> js/document (.-documentElement) (.-style) (.-overflow) (set! "hidden"))
23:24	logic_prog_	rukor: got that working already
23:25	rukor	logic_prog_: ok
23:25	logic_prog_	just changed the html :-)
23:25	rukor	:-)
23:25	logic_prog_	rukor: however, please help with the full screen api
23:25	SegFaultAX	Not sure why, but this problem took me an hour to solve: http://www.4clojure.com/problem/124
23:25	logic_prog_	(let [el (.-documentElement js/document) rfs (.-webkitRequestFullScreen el)] (. js/console log rfs) (. js/console log el) (.call rfs el))
23:25	logic_prog_	somehow doesn't work
23:26	SegFaultAX	But my answer is among the shortest of those I'm following. So that's awesome :)
23:27	rukor	logic_prog_: is it not intended to be called from an event handler?
23:27	logic_prog_	why can't I call it out of an event handler,
23:27	logic_prog_	i.e. in window.onload
23:28	logic_prog_	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9454125/javascript-request-fullscreen-is-unreliable on shit
23:28	logic_prog_	I can only call it from an event handler?
23:29	rukor	logic_prog_: does it work when you do? from the SO page, it says it has to be within the context of a user interaction
23:29	logic_prog_	well, let me hook something up :-)
23:29	logic_prog_	this is fucking annoying though
23:29	logic_prog_	as I have events sent to core.async go channels
23:29	logic_prog_	s/hands/fists
23:29	rukor	logic_prog_: that would make sense though, as I have always clicked a button to go full screen :-)
23:30	rukor	logic_prog_: http://johndyer.name/lab/fullscreenapi/
23:30	dsrx	logic_prog_: specifically it can probably only be called from a user-initiated event callback, like for creating popup windows
23:31	logic_prog_	rukor, dsrx: this makes sense now, thanks for clarifying!
23:31	rukor	logic_prog_: np
23:36	andrei	How can one require multiple libraries and assign them to the same alias?
23:40	dsrx	nice, now for some reason it's also pulling in clojure 1.3.0-alpha6
23:43	logic_prog_	rukor, dsrx: it works now, bound ctrl-0 to full screen and it works
23:45	rukor	logic_prog_: nice
23:52	amalloy	andrei: you can't. a namespace's aliases are a map from alias-symbol to namespace
23:54	nathanielksmith	hiya. My tests (in test/<projname>/test/<testfile>.clj) are unable to require things in my actual code (src/<projname>/<file>.clj).
23:54	amalloy	SegFaultAX: an hour seems pretty reasonable for 4clojure 124. there's a lot to do
23:54	nathanielksmith	I'm running with lein test.
23:54	nathanielksmith	It's finding and running the tests fine
23:54	nathanielksmith	The tests just can't see the <projname> namespace
23:55	nathanielksmith	any suggestions?
23:55	rovar	what is the easiest way to map a function across the vals of a hashmap while leaving the keys in-tact?
23:56	andrei	amalloy: Ah, too bad. Thanks!