#clojure – 2013-12-05

2013-12-05

00:00	sm0ke	it seems i have to convert it to (foo ClassName. (into-array Object ["aa" "bb"]))
00:00	murtaza52	I have multiple keys on my system now, which gpg key does it use ?
00:01	sm0ke	wtf! how do people write interop!!
00:01	arrdem	sm0ke: yeah the 2nd one is fine, what of it?
00:01	sm0ke	oh i meant .foo
00:01	sm0ke	arrdem: why do i have to call it like that?
00:02	arrdem	sm0ke: because your java function is vardic, which really means that Java internally builds an array for one "real" argument.
00:03	sm0ke	hmm this has come down to compiler internals i see
00:04	arrdem	sm0ke: ... yeah you're trying to do interop. that's gonna happen.
00:04	arrdem	sorry there isn't much we can do to clean it up :/
00:05	sm0ke	hmm its weird that clojure allown (doseq) on primitive arrays oob
00:05	technomancy	murtaza52: yes, your password is wrong.
00:05	sm0ke	but refuses to support varargs synactic suagr
00:05	technomancy	which key is chosen is up to gpg; `lein help gpg` might explain that, but it's not causing this failure
00:06	arrdem	sm0ke: see compier internals. raw arrays are ISeq, that totally works. Java built your method to a silly signature, not our fault.
00:07	arrdem	or rather you gave your method a silly signature and javac did as it was bid
00:09	sm0ke	raw arrays are ISeq
00:09	sm0ke	what else i Iseq
00:09	sm0ke	is Collection ISeq too?
00:09	sm0ke	What i Iseq anyway
00:10	amalloy	raw arrays are not ISeq. that would be impossible
00:10	sm0ke	What!
00:10	sm0ke	you ust said they were
00:10	amalloy	they're seqable, but the compiler can't add new interfaces to them
00:10	arrdem	amalloy: thanks for the correction.
00:10	sm0ke	oh similar names
00:10	arrdem	amalloy: I was just thinking that would be pretty similar
00:10	arrdem	*silly
00:11	amalloy	well, it would be great, it's just impossible
00:11	murtaza52	technomancy: which password my gpg or clojars ?
00:11	sm0ke	i guess ISeq must be something which supports cons
00:13	sm0ke	Wouldnt it had make sense if we had [
00:13	sm0ke	sorry
00:13	sm0ke	[String & Object] as valid def in gen-class
00:14	murtaza52	technomancy: I am signing in clojars using the same user/pass and it is working. I am also able to successfully enter my passphrase for both my ssh and gpg. So which one could be wrong ?
00:16	murtaza52	I created a new gpg key, updated it on clojars, and specified it in my profiles.clj. Its using it, but still failing.
00:16	sm0ke	or may be we can have simply 'varargs' aliased to "[Ljava.lang.Object;"
00:16	sm0ke	we do have 'void'
00:16	murtaza52	How can I debug which password is causing the problem ?
00:18	murtaza52	technomancy: when I enter a wrong password for clojars I get this error - ReasonPhrase: Unauthorized.
00:19	murtaza52	The one I am getting right now is ReasonPhrase: Forbidden.
00:19	sm0ke	anyhow, i see its unecessary, if i am trying to support java methods with varargs i can write a java class with varargs in my clojure project and have varargs convert to Collections
00:20	logic_prog	I'm using clojurescript repl. Web server is localhost:3000, clojurescript brepl server is localhost:3002. Is there anyway to tell chrome "dude, allow localhost:3002's iframe to access localhost:3000's page" ?
00:20	sm0ke	fking synactic sugar for imperative langs are nothing but nuisance
00:21	logic_prog	sm0ke: except for APL, where the syntax is the language
00:21	sm0ke	logic_prog: access-control-allow-origin: * ?
00:21	logic_prog	sm0ke: interesting, reading http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5008944/how-to-add-an-access-control-allow-origin-header now
00:22	SegFaultAX	Don't use *
00:22	SegFaultAX	Be explicit about what hosts you care to respond to.
00:22	sm0ke	yep you can use comma seperate domains
00:36	logic_prog	:headers {"Content-Type" "text/html; charset=utf-8" "Access-Control-Allow-Origin" "http://localhost:3002/"}
00:36	logic_prog	is that basically what I want in my compojure/ring response?
00:37	sm0ke	logic_prog: well you can try
00:38	sm0ke	logic_prog: did you say you were trying open 3002 as iframe in 3000?
00:38	logic_prog	sm0ke: trying
00:38	sm0ke	hmm actually, you dont need cross origing for iframe :P
00:38	sm0ke	if i am not wrong
00:38	sm0ke	what error were you getting
00:39	sm0ke	can you hit ctrl-shift-j to inspect?
00:41	logic_prog	i'm using chrome, not firefox
00:41	logic_prog	at the moment, I can't even (js/alert ...) anymore, so I must have broken something
00:41	sm0ke	ctrl-shift-j works in chrome too
00:42	logic_prog	alright
00:42	logic_prog	I have the developer console
00:43	logic_prog	elements / resources / network / sources / timeline / profiles / audits/ console
00:43	logic_prog	where do I check for the http headers?
00:44	sm0ke	on network
00:44	sm0ke	click the request for which you want to see headers
00:44	sm0ke	wth.. can you first tell what the error is under console?
00:45	logic_prog	Access-Control-Allow-Origin:http://localhost:3002 <-- I see this in one of the two
00:45	logic_prog	sure
00:45	logic_prog	let me restart few things, many things just broke
00:46	danenania	is there an idiomatic way to take a sequence of symbols like (symbol1 symbol2 symbol3) and turn it into a hash-map like {:symbol1 symbol1 :symbol2 symbol2 :symbol3 symbol3}
00:46	danenania	without writing out the keys?
00:46	logic_prog	(into {} (map #(vector (keyword %) %) ... )) ?
00:47	rasmusto	are they quoted symbols?
00:47	arrdem	,(into {} ((juxt (comp name keyword) identity) ['x 'y 'z]))
00:47	clojurebot	#<NullPointerException java.lang.NullPointerException>
00:48	danenania	ok, will have to define my own i think
00:48	rasmusto	arrdem: missing a map?
00:48	arrdem	we should have a clojurebot shootout night... who can quickdraw the most map/filter/juxt/into solutions :P
00:49	arrdem	rasmusto: lil bit
00:49	arrdem	I'd loose but it'd be fun
00:49	sm0ke	,(into {} (map #(vector (keyword %) %) '(a b c)))
00:49	clojurebot	{:a a, :b b, :c c}
00:49	sm0ke	logic_prog: well done
00:49	rasmusto	,(into {} (map (juxt keyword identity) ['x 'y 'z]))
00:49	clojurebot	{:x x, :y y, :z z}
00:49	danenania	nope, not quoted
00:49	danenania	just find myself assembling hash-maps like that alot for keyword argument passing
00:49	logic_prog	sm0ke: if only cljs was as easy, lol
00:50	rasmusto	danenania: I build up maps like that manaually for the most part
00:50	arrdem	danenania: there's (let [{:keys [foo bar baz]} ...] ... )
00:50	rasmusto	and I save space by destructuring them afterwards using {:keys [a b c]}
00:50	sm0ke	guys i dont seem to be able to call https://github.com/clojure/tools.logging/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/tools/logging.clj#L70 like (log "namespace" :info "something")
00:51	sm0ke	what does the logger-ns accepts?
00:51	danenania	rasumusto: yeah that's what i've been doing as well... just getting greedy and trying to save a few more keystrokes :)
00:51	sm0ke	i mean what is logger-ns , it surely is not a string
00:52	rasmusto	danenania: actually, I think I tried to write a macro or something to do it and it got really confusing. You should avoid quoted symbols IMO
00:54	danenania	yeah probably not worth it
00:58	logic_prog	sm0ke: cljs.user> js/parent "Error evaluating:" js/parent :as "" #<SecurityError: Blocked a frame with origin "http://localhost:3002" from accessing a cross-origin frame.> Error: Blocked a frame with origin "http://localhost:3002" from accessing a cross-origin frame.
00:58	logic_prog	https://gist.github.com/anonymous/7800751
01:01	sm0ke	logic_prog: can you try plain * for header
01:01	sm0ke	specific domain can be reworked later
01:04	danenania	here's what i ended up with:
01:04	danenania	(defn identity-map [syms] (into {} (map #(vector (keyword %) (eval %)) syms)))
01:04	logic_prog	sm0ke let me try
01:06	rasmusto	danenania: looks good, the only thing now is you have to manage a collection of quoted symbols :)
01:07	danenania	rasmusto: well assuming they're in context, i can just do (identity-map '(a b c))
01:07	danenania	not too bad
01:08	rasmusto	danenania: but that quote!
01:08	danenania	haha, can't have everything i suppose
01:09	arrdem	rasmusto: he could use a macro...
01:09	rasmusto	yeah, I guess the macro would let you drop the quote
01:11	glosoli	Running into some weird problems with Enlive https://www.refheap.com/0788fd13a47504aa9f7593bed it does not seem to be able to select :script element by my custom :data-defer attribute, though if I rename that attr to class and check for some class name it works
01:11	glosoli	Any ideas ?
01:16	sm0ke	wtf, https://github.com/clojure/tools.logging/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/tools/logging/impl.clj#L161 logger-ns has to be a string
01:16	sm0ke	ugh, clojure stack trace fail again
01:16	sm0ke	i get this for an error => (log/log "ns" :info "ddddddd")
01:16	sm0ke	IllegalArgumentException ns clojure.tools.logging/eval130/fn--131 (misc.clj:6)
01:19	logic_prog	sm0ke: hmm, still same error, even with Access-Control-Allow-Origin: *
01:23	sm0ke	logic_prog: can you try some other browsers too?
01:43	kristof	Are common lisp channels mutable data structures?
01:44	kristof	And are the reading and writing operations on them destructive?
01:49	andyf	kristof: Do you mean the Common Lisp library called ChanL? I wasn't aware that the Common Lisp standard had something called channels.
01:51	bitemyapp	andyf: https://github.com/sykopomp/chanl
01:51	bitemyapp	oh, yes, sorry
01:51	bitemyapp	well now eother people can look at it.
01:51	kristof	andyf: I'm sorry, I actually meant Clojure channels in core.async
01:52	kristof	andyf: I'm secretly planning to port some of that juicy stuff over to CL but if I declare anything now it should be considered vaporware.
01:53	andyf	kristof: I am no authority on the matter, but I have a hard time imagining a sense in which a core.async channel could be considered an immutable data structure.
01:54	kristof	Seems sort of counter to Clojure philosophy to have something that can be bashed upon so easily
01:54	noprompt	went to update npm with npm update -g npm. it failed and now i don't have npm anymore.
01:54	noprompt	the javascript life story right there.
01:54	kristof	andyf: But I was reading some of swannodette's (sp?) blog posts and it was pure magic.
01:54	andyf	kristof: Clojure is not Haskell
01:54	kristof	Oh, I'm certainly aware
01:55	kristof	But Clojure still tries to make bashing atomic and guaranteed, with STM
01:55	andyf	Mutability is embraced, when needed, or just plain old useful
01:55	kristof	at least when it's a shared resource
01:55	kristof	and atoms and actors are not meant to be shared resources so they do not count
01:55	andyf	How are atoms not meant to be shared resources?
01:56	kristof	Not meant to be modified by a lot of different things, I suppose
01:56	noprompt	kristof: the clojure focus is power, simplicity, and focus; how do channels/atoms and their usage conflict with that philosophy?
01:57	noprompt	*the clojure philosophy
01:58	kristof	noprompt: Atoms don't, channels seem to. Atoms are not meant to be coordinated with...
01:58	kristof	well, I suppose data in channels don't, either, do they?
01:58	noprompt	kristof: nope. :)
01:58	kristof	noprompt: See, I was looking at channels like an unsafe kind of ref
01:59	noprompt	kristof: how are they unsafe?
01:59	kristof	unsafe in the sense that stuff can pop things off of the queue and put them on whenever, however
01:59	noprompt	that's the whole point.
02:00	kristof	Of course! I understood that, but it felt kind of weird because I was thinking of stm too much
02:00	kristof	But there's no coordination in channel usage, unlike in stm usage; in fact, THAT'S the whole point
02:00	kristof	"just do whatever, whenever"
02:00	noprompt	and it's not if i'm my code is suddenly going to start putting dog food on my channels.
02:00	kristof	right
02:01	kristof	I'm still slightly bedazzled by core.async, especially after having used javascript and thinking in terms of block block block
02:01	noprompt	on the client side i have no beef with core.async. i'll take dog food on channel over callbacks any day of the week.
02:02	noprompt	kristof: yes core.async is very nice client side.
02:04	kristof	noprompt: And what about futures? They've enamored some people.
02:04	kristof	But not swannodette.
02:04	noprompt	kristof: futures are cool server side. i made heavy use of them with a huge database migration i had to do earlier this year.
02:05	noprompt	kristof: nowadays i'd probably use core.async.
02:07	noprompt	so far 2 out of the 3 node based cli apps have had some sort of wacky design flaw.
02:08	kristof	noprompt: What's the disadvantage of using a future over a go block?
02:09	noprompt	kristof: i don't know.
02:09	kristof	Hm. Alright.
02:09	kristof	noprompt: Eventually I'm going to need to find out how the different coroutines are multiplexed onto one thread. That might be... fun? :/
02:10	noprompt	kristof: you don't have to add a dependency on core.asyn in your project.clj i guess? i'm sure there's a better answer.
02:10	noprompt	kristof: sounds like it might be. i'm pretty much hands off in that area.
02:10	noprompt	kristof: i'm one of the "stayed for the data structures" guys.
02:11	kristof	Can't remember who said that
02:11	kristof	Maybe it was in a hickey talk?
02:11	noprompt	well that and having to put up with a minimum amount of bullshit from a programming language.
02:11	noprompt	i've used clojure for a year solid now and still the only thing that bugs me is stack traces.
02:11	noprompt	everything else is pretty nice.
02:18	noprompt	getting sick is stupid.
02:19	noprompt	who came up with that idea?
02:19	arohner	bitemyapp: sorry, I missed what you said
02:19	arohner	the irc client popped something up, but I disconnected & reconnected, or something
02:25	bitemyapp	arohner: oh I've wanted to do the same thing you wanted, I called it "draining" channels. Anyway, just wanted to know if the "repeatedly" solution guns recommended worked for you.
02:26	bitemyapp	arohner: you wanted to get multiple items from a channel.
02:26	arohner	right. what did you suggest w/ repeatedly?
02:26	bitemyapp	a discrete number perhaps.
02:27	bitemyapp	15:48 < gfredericks> would also be easy given a (defn ch->seq [ch] (->> (repeatedly #(async/<!! ch)) (take-while (complement nil?)))
02:27	bitemyapp	blocking take looks like.
02:27	arohner	cool, I'll try that
02:27	arohner	ty
02:29	bitemyapp	arohner: guns provided an initial naive solution, gfredericks refined it.
02:31	jph-	newbie question - how do i select-keys on a list of maps?
02:32	jph-	i see filter, and select-keys, but how would i use them together?
02:32	rasmusto	jph-: make a function that uses select-keys
02:32	jph-	what args would it take?
02:33	jph-	the function
02:33	rasmusto	(map #(select-keys % [:a :b :c]) my-list-of-maps)
02:33	rasmusto	jph-: just one, the map that you're pulling keys out of
02:33	jph-	lemme try that on for size
02:33	rasmusto	jph-: check the argument order, I can't remember if the map or the keyseq comes first
02:34	jph-	that works
02:34	jph-	how would i filter based on key val?
02:34	jph-	ie (= val something)
02:34	bitemyapp	arohner: you really need a persistent IRC session that you can rejoin
02:35	arohner	meh. http://clojure-log.n01se.net/ is usually good enough
02:35	arohner	for some reason the logs cut off today though
02:35	bitemyapp	fair.
02:35	rasmusto	you can just use (filter #(= (:a %) val) coll)
02:35	Raynes	logs.lazybot.org
02:35	arohner	I really don't have the time to mess with irc sessions these days
02:36	rasmusto	jph-: you don't necessarily need the select-keys in this case, or you could do if after if you really want to cut the other ones out
02:36	jph-	rasmusto: you're my hero
02:36	jph-	cheers
02:36	jph-	im just learning all the ways to use these functions together
02:36	arohner	Raynes: cool!
02:36	jph-	rasmusto: thank you for help
02:36	Raynes	This log viewer is built-in to lazybot courtesy of aphyr (Kyle Kingsbury of Jepsen fame).
02:37	rasmusto	jph-: destructuring would be cool too: (filter (fn [{:keys [a b]}] (= [a b] [vala valb])) coll)
02:37	noprompt	(inc bbloom)
02:37	lazybot	⇒ 19
02:37	jph-	rasmusto: i'll write that down and see what it does
02:37	jph-	is that to filter out
02:37	jph-	?
02:37	jph-	or just another approach to filtering based on val?
02:38	rasmusto	destructuring can be applied anywhere you take a collection as a function argument or let binding, it works in this case becasue you are filtering a collection of maps
02:41	jph-	is there a repl trick to automatically (use) something on repl start?
02:41	jph-	in my lein config maybe?
02:42	jph-	nm i think ive found it
02:44	dbusnenko	yes
02:45	dbusnenko	did you read "Worflow reloaded" by Sierra?
02:45	dbusnenko	he describes that
02:46	noprompt	jph-: you can create are user.clj file in something like a ./dev folder and add that to your [:profiles :dev :source-paths]
02:46	jph-	i just want to avoid having to (use) on repl startup
02:46	jph-	for some common libs i load
02:46	jph-	i can put deps in ~/.lein/profiles.clj
03:05	logic_prog_	is there a linux tool that can merge the outputs of two stdouts? for example, I'd like a single window to contain the output of "lein cljsbuild auto" and "lein run main" -- both of them dump output messages, and I want both stdouts/stderrs to be in the same window (rather than take up two separte windows)
03:09	amalloy	logic_prog: cat
03:09	amalloy	or tail, i suppose, if you want them interleaved
03:09	logic_prog_	doesn't cat only handle files?
03:09	amalloy	everything is a file
03:10	amalloy	$ tail -f <(lein foo) <(lein bar)
03:10	amalloy	$ tail -f <(lein foo 2>&1) <(lein bar 2>&1) ## since you want stderr as well
03:10	logic_prog_	no fucking way
03:10	logic_prog_	this is balck magic
03:11	amalloy	logic_prog_: worked?
03:12	logic_prog_	not in zsh
03:12	logic_prog_	trying bash
03:12	Raynes	But the prompts!
03:15	amalloy	tail -fq, if you want to suppress the fairly-useless headers
03:16	logic_prog_	this is weird
03:16	logic_prog_	tail -f (ls 2>&1) works
03:16	sm0ke	wtf i ahve :aot on a ns and also :gen-class in the definition still no class is getting generated on lein compile
03:16	logic_prog_	but tail -f (lein cljsbuild once 2>&1) just hangs
03:16	amalloy	you forgot the <
03:17	logic_prog_	amalloy: you are right
03:19	sm0ke	wtf in lein :pre-tasks has to be [["compile"] "javac"] instead of ["compile" "javac"]
03:45	hiteki	hi there
03:48	ucb	hey hiteki
04:50	bitemyapp	http://alexott.net/en/fp/books/
04:53	ucb	bitemyapp: !
04:53	bitemyapp	ucb: about to sleep, anything before I go?
04:54	bitemyapp	ucb: http://russiancircles.bandcamp.com/album/memorial
04:54	ucb	bitemyapp: nothing, just hi and good night :)
04:54	bitemyapp	ucb: hi, good night. Let me know how you like the new Russian Circles album
04:54	ucb	will do
04:54	bitemyapp	ucb: check out those FP books, it's a fantastic list.
04:54	bitemyapp	one of the best I've found.
04:54	ucb	yeah, reading
04:56	jarodzz	,(+ 1 1)
04:56	clojurebot	2
05:19	xificurC	I just installed cider on emacs via el-get and when I try to run it I get `cannot open load file: nrepl/cider', any ideas whats wrong?
05:20	xificurC	I see the folder ~/.emacs.d/el-get/nrepl/ and I have cider.el as well as cider.elc
05:22	logic_prog_	with optimizations: none, how do I get goog.base installed?
05:22	logic_prog_	in cljs, when building with optimiations: advanced or optimizations: whitespace, the necessary goog closure files are compiled in
05:23	logic_prog_	with optimiations: none, I appear to need to somehow provide the goog.closure libraries
05:23	logic_prog_	where do I get those libraries?
05:41	bozhidar	brainproxy: btw, I'm prelude's author. Glad to hear you like it :-)
05:45	bozhidar	I got a bit late to participate in the smartparens/paredit discussion, though. Maybe next time...
06:02	Fender	A new day, a new question. Today:
06:02	Fender	, (hash #"asd")
06:02	clojurebot	30128182
06:02	Fender	(hash #"asd")
06:02	Fender	, (hash #"asd")
06:02	clojurebot	12613946
06:02	amalloy	regexes don't have meaningful hashes or equality comparisons
06:02	Fender	:(
06:02	amalloy	yeah, bummer, i know
06:03	amalloy	blame java
06:03	Fender	hehe
06:03	Fender	so to use regex in hashmaps, I'd ahve to instantiate exactly one regex and always refer to it indirectly
06:04	amalloy	or use its string representation as the key instead
06:04	hyPiRion	blame java on regex equality? Wat.
06:04	Fender	hmmm, is there a way to obtain the string from a regex?
06:05	Fender	or do I have to re-pattern every string?
06:05	amalloy	&(str #"foo")
06:05	lazybot	⇒ "foo"
06:05	amalloy	&(str #"foo\*")
06:05	lazybot	⇒ "foo\\*"
06:05	hyPiRion	,(.toString #"foo\*")
06:05	clojurebot	"foo\\*"
06:05	amalloy	.toString? heretic!
06:06	hyPiRion	(heretic! hyPiRion true) ; ?
06:06	Fender	str!!! stupid me
06:09	Fender	actually, I gotta admit, I also tried .toString first -.-
06:09	Fender	well, thanks for the help
06:26	sm0ke	why doesnt this work? ##((symbol "inc") 0)
06:26	lazybot	⇒ nil
06:26	hyPiRion	because that's a symbol, not a function
06:27	hyPiRion	,((-> "inc" symbol resolve) 0)
06:27	clojurebot	1
06:27	sm0ke	,inc
06:27	clojurebot	#<core$inc clojure.core$inc@822930>
06:28	sm0ke	hmm shouldnt a symbol resolve by itself?
06:28	sm0ke	,(resolve 'inc)
06:28	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/inc
06:29	sm0ke	not i guess
06:30	hyPiRion	if it did, it would be hard to make macros and programs writing programs
06:30	hyPiRion	,`(~inc 0)
06:30	clojurebot	(#<core$inc clojure.core$inc@822930> 0)
06:30	hyPiRion	^ not possible to read back in
06:30	sm0ke	,(eval `(~inc 0))
06:30	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
06:31	sm0ke	i see the point
06:31	hyPiRion	sm0ke: as in, write to file and read back
06:31	hyPiRion	,(read-string (str `(~inc 0)))
06:31	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unreadable form>
06:32	sm0ke	,`(inc 0)
06:32	clojurebot	(clojure.core/inc 0)
06:32	sm0ke	would you really need a ~ there?
06:33	hyPiRion	no, but that would've happened if the symbol resolved to a function
06:33	hyPiRion	by default
06:34	sm0ke	also what is ns?
06:34	sm0ke	if i have a namespace ns1 which call a functon in ns2 which does (prn ns) what namespace would that be?
06:36	ucb	"And after a while we began to take their complaints seriously. We began to feel as if we really were responsible And disciples saith (below free (if (< n d) n (remainder (- n d) d))) We can thus make a factorial subroutine that returns to the entry point" -- http://kingjamesprogramming.tumblr.com/
06:36	sm0ke	thats a stupid question i suppose
06:36	ucb	sorry, couldn't resist.
06:36	hyPiRion	,(:meta #'ns)
06:36	clojurebot	nil
06:36	hyPiRion	whops
06:36	hyPiRion	,(meta #'ns)
06:36	clojurebot	{:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name ns, :added "1.0", :doc "A clojure.lang.Namespace object representing the current namespace.", :tag clojure.lang.Namespace}
06:36	hyPiRion	,(:dynamic (meta #'ns))
06:36	clojurebot	nil
06:40	Apage43	sm0ke: oh, your symbol thing earler
06:40	Apage43	symbols act like fns, but not the way you're thinking
06:40	Apage43	they act like keywords ##((symbol "foo") {'foo :bar})
06:40	lazybot	⇒ :bar
06:42	sm0ke	,('foo {'foo :bar})
06:42	clojurebot	:bar
06:42	hyPiRion	yeah, implements ifn
06:42	sm0ke	yep i see your point
06:43	Apage43	whereas vars call their referenced thing
06:43	Apage43	,(#'inc 1)
06:43	clojurebot	2
06:43	Apage43	when used as a fn
06:43	sm0ke	what is #'inc what is that?
06:44	Apage43	#'inc is shorthand for (resolve 'inc)
06:44	sm0ke	aha
06:44	Apage43	which returns a var
06:44	Apage43	,(type #'inc)
06:44	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Var
06:44	sm0ke	so coming to original form ##(#(symbol "inc") 0) ; should work
06:44	lazybot	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: sandbox5671$eval40180$fn
06:44	Apage43	# is pretty weird
06:45	Apage43	#' is (resolve 'foo)
06:45	Apage43	but #(foo) is (fn [] (foo))
06:45	sm0ke	oh yes
06:45	Apage43	and #"" is shorthand for regexes =P
06:45	Apage43	,(type #"foo")
06:45	clojurebot	java.util.regex.Pattern
06:46	sm0ke	that is correct too
06:46	sm0ke	#
06:46	sm0ke	lol
06:46	Apage43	it's magic that lives in the reader, not something that exists in the thing that has been read
06:47	Apage43	,(read-string "#'inc")
06:47	clojurebot	(var inc)
06:47	Apage43	,(read-string "#(foo)")
06:47	clojurebot	(fn* [] (foo))
06:47	Apage43	,(read-string "#\"wat\"")
06:47	clojurebot	#"wat"
06:49	sm0ke	shouldnt the reader figure out #'(symbol "inc")
06:49	sm0ke	i mean #(symbol "inc")
06:50	Apage43	,(read-string "#'(symbol \"inc\")")
06:50	clojurebot	(var (symbol "inc"))
06:50	sm0ke	hmm i see thats a valid function too
06:50	Apage43	#' is actually shorthand for var, as you can see
06:50	Apage43	and var is macro-y
06:50	sm0ke	i havent see anyone using var in a code
06:50	clojurebot	Pardon?
06:50	Apage43	it's not a function
06:51	Apage43	sm0ke: most people don't, because #' is shorthand for it =P
06:51	Apage43	because it's not a fn you can't pass stuff to it at run time, it's evaluated at compile time
06:52	sm0ke	ok so this should work ##((var 'inc) 0)
06:52	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Symbol
06:52	Apage43	,((var inc) 0)
06:52	sm0ke	wth
06:52	clojurebot	1
06:52	sm0ke	,(var inc)
06:52	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/inc
06:53	hyPiRion	var is a macro
06:53	Apage43	rightr
06:53	hyPiRion	$source var
06:53	lazybot	Source not found.
06:53	hyPiRion	yeah, it's not even a macro I guess, it's a special form
06:53	Apage43	yeah
06:53	Apage43	Why I said "macro-y"
06:54	sm0ke	not its not http://clojure.org/special_forms
06:54	hyPiRion	aha
06:54	sm0ke	cant find var
06:54	sm0ke	oh yes there is
06:54	Apage43	so forms like (var foo) are specially recognized by the compiler
06:55	sm0ke	i honestly havent see a #' in a code too
06:55	sm0ke	https://github.com/clojure/tools.logging/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/tools/logging.clj this is full of macros
06:55	sm0ke	no #'
06:55	Apage43	sm0ke: using #' often happens when someone is doing livecoding type stuff
06:55	Apage43	because if you do something like
06:56	hyPiRion	or in tests through alter-var-root and friends
06:56	Apage43	(def my-composed-thing (comp foo bar baz)) to compose the functions foo, bar, baz
06:56	Apage43	if you then in a live coding session redefine foo bar or baz, my-composed-thing doesn't react
06:57	Apage43	you can (comp #'foo #'bar #'baz)
06:57	Apage43	and now that thing has indirection in it
06:57	Apage43	and when those are called they look up what the var currently points to
06:57	sm0ke	Apage43: doesnt reloading foo bar baz would work?
06:58	Apage43	sm0ke: not if you don't reaload my-composed-thing as well
06:58	Apage43	since it captured the value of the var at the time that code was evaluated
06:58	sm0ke	hmm i dont think thats necessary
06:58	sm0ke	ah ok you are right
06:58	sm0ke	comp is a macro
06:58	hyPiRion	generally not needed, you can usually reload the whole namespace
06:59	hyPiRion	but for livecoding, that's usually iffy
06:59	sm0ke	$source comp
06:59	Apage43	where it comes in handy, for me, is when I'm messing with a web app
06:59	lazybot	comp is http://is.gd/jgSVls
06:59	sm0ke	hmm comp seems to be a function
06:59	Apage43	and I've run something like (start-http-server (-> my-handler wrap-some-middleware wrap-more-middleware))
07:00	Apage43	so the http server has the value of my handler fn
07:00	Apage43	if I replace that with #'my-handler I can redef it and not have to stop and start the http server
07:03	Apage43	example: https://www.refheap.com/21522
07:04	sm0ke	what does juxt do?
07:05	sm0ke	,(doc juxt)
07:05	clojurebot	"([f] [f g] [f g h] [f g h & fs]); Takes a set of functions and returns a fn that is the juxtaposition of those fns. The returned fn takes a variable number of args, and returns a vector containing the result of applying each fn to the args (left-to-right). ((juxt a b c) x) => [(a x) (b x) (c x)]"
07:05	Apage43	,((juxt inc dec odd? even? pos? neg?) 12)
07:05	clojurebot	[13 11 false true true ...]
07:05	sm0ke	awesome sauce
07:05	jballanc	,((juxt :foo :bar :baz) {:foo 1 :bar 2 :baz 3})
07:05	clojurebot	[1 2 3]
07:05	sm0ke	,((juxt inc dec odd? even? pos? neg?) 12 13 14)
07:05	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (3) passed to: core$inc>
07:06	sm0ke	,((juxt inc dec odd? even? pos? neg?) [12 13 14])
07:06	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
07:06	sm0ke	wth
07:06	philandstuff	,(map (juxt inc dec odd? even? pos? neg?) [12 13 14])
07:06	clojurebot	([13 11 false true true ...] [14 12 true false true ...] [15 13 false true true ...])
07:06	Apage43	((juxt f g h) a b c) == [(f a b c) (g a b c) (h a b c)]
07:07	Apage43	,((juxt count first last) [1 2 3])
07:07	clojurebot	[3 1 3]
07:07	Apage43	,((juxt + - /) 1 2)
07:07	clojurebot	[3 -1 1/2]
07:07	sm0ke	i dont understand shit
07:07	Apage43	((juxt + - /) 1 2) == [(+ 1 2) (- 1 2) (/ 1 2)]
07:08	sm0ke	ok i get it
07:23	Profpatsch	I’m going crazy here: https://github.com/Profpatsch/cljs-canvas-test
07:23	Profpatsch	Can someone tell me why my namepaces are not accessible when I do lein repl?
07:23	Profpatsch	It _should_ work in theory, since my source-paths are set to the right folders.
07:25	sm0ke	had a similar problem today, i had pre-tasks defined incorrectly
07:26	Profpatsch	Look at the project.clj, I can’t make it more minimal.
07:26	Profpatsch	Maybe a typing error somewhere? oO
07:26	sm0ke	https://github.com/Profpatsch/cljs-canvas-test/blob/master/src/clj/canvas/core.clj#L15
07:26	sm0ke	what is that?
07:26	Profpatsch	It’s src/clj/canvas/core.clj
07:27	Profpatsch	That’s the server.
07:27	sm0ke	you have wrong parenthesis
07:27	sm0ke	u instead of (
07:27	Profpatsch	Uuuuugh.
07:27	Profpatsch	WHY DOESN’T LEIN TELL ME THAT?
07:27	sm0ke	lein is evil
07:27	Profpatsch	That’s plain stupid.
07:28	Profpatsch	It should Warning the hell out of me.
07:28	sm0ke	hmm i am surprised
07:28	amalloy	i mean, isn't that what lein repl and then (require 'canvas.core) does tell you?
07:28	amalloy	unable to resolve symbol udefroutes, i would imagine
07:29	Profpatsch	No, nothing.
07:30	Profpatsch	https://www.refheap.com/21523
07:30	Profpatsch	afk for a bit.
07:30	amalloy	Profpatsch: yeah, you didn't attempt to compile it at all
07:30	amalloy	that's why i said require, not in-ns
07:30	amalloy	you could type random chinese garbage into any file and get that behavior - in-ns is for moving into already-compiled namespaces, not for compiling them
07:36	sm0ke	well i think to avoid this one can have :dev profile with :aot :all
07:36	sm0ke	hmm not sure though
07:44	buddywilliams	Good morning, anyone awake?
07:49	buddywilliams	So, I was hoping someone could point me in the right direction. I am trying to build a simple Chess program in Clojure as a means to learn Clojure. Currently, I have constructed a Vector but I find myself continuing to stare at it because I have a few questions that I can't make sense of. If I have one Vector which will track the state of the chess pieces and board, does that then mean I have build mapping functionality into
07:49	buddywilliams	most functions as I pass this data structure to? Do I have to replace the whole Vector each time I want to make a chance? How does destructuring help me?
07:50	buddywilliams	(def chess-board (atom
07:50	buddywilliams	[2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 4, 3, 2,
07:51	buddywilliams	1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1,
07:51	buddywilliams	0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0,
07:51	buddywilliams	0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0,
07:51	buddywilliams	0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0,
07:51	buddywilliams	0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0,
07:51	buddywilliams	1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1,
07:51	buddywilliams	2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 4, 3, 2]))
07:53	sm0ke	i think for the second question the answer would be yes
07:53	sm0ke	but it doesnt imply inefficiency, as there is sharing between new and stable data structures
07:54	sm0ke	stale*
07:54	Profpatsch	amalloy_: I think I get the namespace stuff now. Still, lein repl should blow up in your face.
07:55	buddywilliams	so under the hood the language is seeing the fact that we are replacing and doing some kind-of compare update?
07:55	buddywilliams	in order words, it only going to add/remove the parts which changed.
07:55	sm0ke	buddywilliams: yes absolutely
07:56	sm0ke	not in the sense of C/C++ arrays updates
07:56	buddywilliams	right
07:57	sm0ke	most data structures are internally trees.. so its a structural sharing between trees
07:58	buddywilliams	So, in my chess example, if I want to move a piece up, then I have to create a whole new vector.
07:58	buddywilliams	I am sure there is some convenient way to operate on these structures but it's a little confusing.
07:58	buddywilliams	to me at least
07:59	buddywilliams	I think I am more concerned with how to solve the problem then I am the solution to this given problem.
07:59	sm0ke	buddywilliams: well creating is not as clumsy as it sound
07:59	sm0ke	buddywilliams: for eg ##(assoc [0 1 2 3] 0 -1)
07:59	lazybot	⇒ [-1 1 2 3]
08:00	sm0ke	this just created a new vector with 0th index replaced
08:00	Profpatsch	It only does the immutable stuff internally.
08:00	buddywilliams	That makes sense.
08:00	Profpatsch	But because it didn’t mutate the old object you can still use it without worrying someone changes stuff under your ass.
08:00	buddywilliams	Someone else has already done the hard work of looping, find the right index, making a new array, etc.
08:01	Profpatsch	This is a great help for me: http://clojure.org/cheatsheet
08:01	sm0ke	yep that would be rich hickey
08:01	buddywilliams	Basically, it's all about learning the functions which give you quick access to some nested structure.
08:02	Profpatsch	Under Vector it lists all the stuff you can use to “modify” the data structure.
08:02	buddywilliams	I saw the chest sheet yesterday for the first time, I'll comb it today.
08:02	Profpatsch	Do not try to understand every function in one go.
08:02	Profpatsch	That’s way to many to learn at once.
08:02	sm0ke	buddywilliams: you just have to think about what you want to do
08:02	Profpatsch	And then look in the right section of the cheat sheet.
08:03	sm0ke	heh
08:03	buddywilliams	I am playing something of the dummy, because well I feel like one, I have watched hours upon hours of talks, read tons of articles, trying to get my mind to a place where I can think functionality.
08:04	sm0ke	hmm yep functional programming coming form an imperative or oo background looks awful
08:04	buddywilliams	In the assoc example, would I then use swap! one I call that function?
08:04	buddywilliams	So far, I love the ideas and I'm convinced it has a lot to offer me, but getting started in a bear because everything is so easy to understand until I try to do something non-trivial.
08:05	buddywilliams	is a bear*
08:05	Profpatsch	I guess it’s the working on the datastructures, working /with/ the datastructures part that’s hardest to grasp.
08:05	sm0ke	buddywilliams: yes for atoms you use swap!
08:06	Profpatsch	And all the meta-stuff, like multimethods.
08:06	buddywilliams	Right. I have basic questions like, should my whole app just use one nested map?
08:06	buddywilliams	Questions that keep me confused about where to begin.
08:06	sm0ke	maps with keywords as keys are good for data abstraction
08:07	buddywilliams	Imagining the data structure is easy, but thinking about how to build an application, I am lost.
08:07	Profpatsch	But when writing e.g. I noticed that my code consists basically only out of list comprehensions, so I figured: Why not use a functional language from the get-go?
08:07	buddywilliams	Okay smoke.
08:08	buddywilliams	I am sold profpatsch.
08:08	Profpatsch	Yeah, and realizing that maps are The Best Think That Can Happen To You.
08:08	Profpatsch	*Thing
08:08	buddywilliams	tired of beating my head against the whole and not making progress
08:08	buddywilliams	Are you saying, it's worth the pain?
08:08	buddywilliams	:)
08:08	Profpatsch	I guess so.
08:09	buddywilliams	I am so much a big picture thinker than it's hard to go on parts.
08:09	Profpatsch	The other part of is that we are all just experimenting. There ar e not many best practices for functional programming yet.
08:09	buddywilliams	So for my chess application, do you guys think it's okay to use one data structure?
08:09	Profpatsch	of course.
08:10	buddywilliams	That makes me happy, at least I am not totally of base.
08:10	Profpatsch	Since you only have 64 fields, it should work splendidly.
08:10	Profpatsch	But I’m not sure if a vector is your best bet here.
08:10	buddywilliams	I will never forget the joy I had from reading Paul Graham's article and spent the whole weekend trying to understand a one page list that at the end I could say, yeah I got it.
08:11	Profpatsch	Hah, same here.
08:11	sm0ke	hmm i agree i would rather go with a map
08:11	buddywilliams	Really, a map?
08:11	buddywilliams	I built one of those too, but only as a way to reference the positions.
08:11	sm0ke	yes why not, its easy to look up a position
08:11	buddywilliams	(def chess-board-map {:a8 0, :b8 1, :c8 2, :d8 3, :e8 4, :f8 5, :g8 6, :h8 7,
08:11	buddywilliams	:a7 8, :b7 9, :c7 10, :d7 11, :e7 12, :f7 13, :g7 14, :h7 15,
08:11	buddywilliams	:a6 16, :b6 17, :c6 18, :d6 19, :e6 20, :f6 21, :g6 22, :h6 23,
08:11	buddywilliams	:a5 24, :b5 25, :c5 26, :d5 27, :e5 28, :f5 29, :g5 30, :h5 31,
08:11	buddywilliams	:a4 32, :b4 33, :c4 34, :d4 35, :e4 36, :f4 37, :g4 38, :h4 39,
08:11	buddywilliams	:a3 40, :b3 41, :c3 42, :d3 43, :e3 44, :f3 45, :g3 46, :h3 47,
08:11	buddywilliams	:a2 48, :b2 49, :c2 50, :d2 51, :e2 52, :f2 53, :g2 54, :h2 55,
08:11	buddywilliams	:a1 56, :b1 57, :c1 58, :d1 59, :e1 60, :f1 61, :g1 62, :h1 63})
08:12	buddywilliams	That's true.
08:12	buddywilliams	but I thought the logic of move here would mean I would have to figure out a way to get the movements to think in terms of chess board rather than indexs.
08:14	buddywilliams	Well, I'll go and do the hard work of more reading and experimenting.
08:15	sm0ke	buddywilliams: you can map each poition to a tuple too like :a1 -> [0 0]
08:15	buddywilliams	okay.
08:16	buddywilliams	I am tuple a vector?
08:16	buddywilliams	Is a*
08:16	buddywilliams	one for each player, is that why I would use a tuple?
08:18	sm0ke	buddywilliams: yes a vector of length 2, i meant it to be like [x,y] coordinated on board
08:19	buddywilliams	how would you store the location of the peice?
08:19	echo-area	Neat, in clojure-mode where indentation doesn't work, M-x fill-paragraph (M-q) auto indents correctly
08:19	buddywilliams	[x,y,peice]?
08:20	buddywilliams	okay I see, with x,y I can give the meaning to :a1 for example
08:21	sm0ke	buddywilliams: thats can to be a map of {:piece [x,y]}
08:21	buddywilliams	Interesting.
08:21	VFe	yeah, like {:a1 [x, y, piece]}, or like smoke said depending on how you want to organize the data
08:21	buddywilliams	makes sense though
08:22	buddywilliams	I guess that's part of the confusion, does it really matter? Hard to tell in the beginning.
08:22	modulus	So guys, if i have a defrecord on a namespace and i use it from anotehr file, i don't seem to get the constructors for the records but i get the functions. is this how it's meant to be?
08:23	sm0ke	well i depends a lot on what exactly makes its easy for you to write algorithm on it
08:23	buddywilliams	yeah, I can see that.
08:23	buddywilliams	write some, refactor, write some more, etc.
08:24	sm0ke	a 8*8 size is really small data, for keeping track of current positions etc
08:24	modulus	like (ns bla) (defrecord Foo) then from another file (ns other [:use [bla :as that])) and i can't do (that/Foo.)
08:24	VFe	Yeah, it's more about how you want to model the data so that it's easy for you to use it(or whoever)
08:29	buddywilliams	modulus, I don't know the answer to your question.
08:31	sm0ke	well its not really trivial once it comes to algorithms though
08:31	sm0ke	well then it would come to knowledge of gametheory i guess
08:32	sm0ke	buddywilliams: chess is partial game right?
08:33	modulus	hmm ok
08:34	buddywilliams	?
08:34	buddywilliams	partial, what do you mean?
08:34	sm0ke	anyhow people seem to have written chess in clojure may be you wanna have a look https://github.com/clojure-dus/chess
08:35	sm0ke	buddywilliams: have you written chess in some other language before?
08:35	buddywilliams	cool, I haven't seen this one. I looked at a couple of others but the authors didn't finish then.
08:35	buddywilliams	no, I have not.
08:36	buddywilliams	The only game I have written was tetris
08:36	sm0ke	ok, i was asking about how to decide on the next move
08:36	buddywilliams	AI?
08:37	sm0ke	yep
08:37	sm0ke	partial impartial games?
08:37	sm0ke	partizan if you prefer
08:37	sm0ke	grundy theorem
08:37	sm0ke	hehe game theory scares me
08:38	buddywilliams	reading about it on wikipedia now...
08:38	buddywilliams	yeah, I agree
08:39	buddywilliams	I will be happy to see a piece move on screen :)
08:40	sm0ke	ok later
09:17	marutks	has anyone tried to invoke overloaded methods on a hessian proxy? I couldn't get it working, type hints didnt help.
09:42	konr	Is there some sort of linked-hash-map in clojure, in which I can keep inserting new key-val pairs and it'll be ordered by insertion order?
09:43	nightfly	just do a list of lists or something
09:46	mdrogalis	konr: TreeMap from Java?
09:47	arrdem	konr: https://github.com/flatland/ordered
09:48	Profpatsch	Can someone explain this: https://www.refheap.com/21525 ?
09:49	mdrogalis	Profpatsch: ns's can partially load.
09:50	BAMbanda	What IDE do you guys recommend for linux?
09:50	BAMbanda	is there anything like SLIME for clojure
09:50	arrdem	$google nrepl emacs
09:50	lazybot	[clojure-emacs/cider · GitHub] https://github.com/clojure-emacs/cider
09:50	hyPiRion	~nrepl
09:50	clojurebot	nrepl is a network REPL implementation: http://github.com/clojure/tools.nrepl
09:50	arrdem	hyPiRion: jinx
09:50	mdrogalis	arrdem: I did not know lazybot did that :P
09:51	BAMbanda	thanks
09:51	arrdem	mdrogalis: my bot-foo is very hit or miss but that one is handy
09:52	arrdem	BAMbanda: emacs + (nrepl.el \| cider) is the reccomended setup around here.
09:52	BAMbanda	arrdem, alright, i was looking for something with emacs, this is good thanks
10:01	Profpatsch	mdrogalis: Does the second require try to reload the namespace? Or will it do nothing?
10:01	mdrogalis	Profpatsch: I'm not sure to be honest.
10:02	mdrogalis	You could drop a print in there and find out.
10:19	sm0ke	guys
10:19	sm0ke	is there an easy peasy way to defined getters and setters for gen-class/
10:19	sm0ke	?*
10:24	sm0ke	i can define methods getP setP but thats too much work
10:24	sm0ke	there must be an easy way
10:25	danlamanna^	what are peoples takes on web frameworks for clojure? in terms of python i would be looking for something closer to django than flask
10:25	BobSchack	sm0ke: :exposes {protected-field-name {:get name :set name}, ...}
10:25	BobSchack	Since the implementations of the methods of the generated class
10:25	BobSchack	occur in Clojure functions, they have no access to the inherited
10:25	BobSchack	protected fields of the superclass. This parameter can be used to
10:25	BobSchack	generate public getter/setter methods exposing the protected field(s)
10:25	BobSchack	for use in the implementation.
10:25	BobSchack	from http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/gen-class
10:26	TimMc	I think I would have preferred just the link. :-P
10:26	TimMc	or fewer linebreaks
10:26	`cbp	danlamanna^: libraries over frameworks is kinda the motto around here
10:26	BobSchack	yeah sorry about that :(
10:27	`cbp	danlamanna^: you won't find much in the way of django or rails around here unfortunately
10:27	`cbp	or fortunately
10:27	vijaykiran	danlamanna^: there isn't anything closer to Django - may be try http://let-caribou.in
10:27	brainproxy	bozhidar: prelude is awesome and thanks for merging my patch the other day for def-...
10:30	sm0ke	oh let me try
10:30	sm0ke	i really dont understanf
10:31	sm0ke	whats the protected-field-name?
10:33	`cbp	the field for which youre generating setters and getters
10:34	sm0ke	`cbp: then why is :get :set needed?
10:34	wei__	what's the minimum Clojure version to use core.reducers? I'm using 1.5.1 and get 'clojure.core.reducers' not found when trying to require
10:35	sm0ke	i get field not defined in class, or ancestor
10:37	stuartsierra	wei__: Reducers is part of 1.5.1. Check your `require` syntax, maybe?
10:37	sm0ke	as far as i know you can only define one field using gen class
10:37	wei__	(require '[clojure.core.reducers :as r])
10:37	llasram	wei__: You may get an exception if using Java 6 and not including a ForkJoin lib
10:37	wei__	(using the repl.) could it be because I'm running java 6?
10:38	wei__	should probably upgrade to java 7 then. but the exception is "Exception namespace 'clojure.core.reducers' not found clojure.core/load-lib (core.clj:5380)", not a forkjoin lib error
10:39	llasram	Are you sure you're using 1.5.1?
10:39	llasram	,clojure-version
10:39	clojurebot	{:interim true, :major 1, :minor 6, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"}
10:43	wei__	{:major 1, :minor 5, :incremental 1, :qualifier nil}
10:46	sm0ke	i was basically writing a log4j appender
10:46	sm0ke	wanted to have some custom properties
10:47	sm0ke	i guess id have to write get/set as :methods mutating atom in :state
10:49	gfredericks	so exceptions thrown in a go block
10:50	llasram	wei__: Beats me then. You do need to add jsr166y for it to work w/ java 6 though. Try adding that to your deps and trying again
10:50	gfredericks	they will totally crash the process and there's no generic mechanism for catching them?
10:51	jonasen	Bronsa: ping
10:51	Bronsa	jonasen: pong
10:52	jonasen	Should :static-field have a :validated? true?
10:53	gfredericks	it's also weird that map< returns a "channel" that can throw exceptions on take
10:53	jonasen	(analyze 'String/CASE_INSENSITIVE_ORDER (empty-env)) does not have a :validated? key
10:53	Bronsa	jonasen: no, if it's a static-field there's no need for :validated?
10:53	jonasen	Bronsa: ok
10:54	jonasen	thanks
10:54	Bronsa	jonasen: same goes for :instance-field
10:55	gfredericks	I guess you can't generally assume that <!! is a safe operation
10:55	Bronsa	jonasen: basically reflection happens on :static-call/:instance-call with no :validated? and on :host-interop, all the other cases are validated
10:56	jonasen	Constructors also must be validated, right?
10:57	Bronsa	yeah
10:59	Bronsa	jonasen: probably adding :runtime-reflection? would be a good idea to make it easier to understand, I'll probably add that
11:06	bozhidar	brainproxy: you're welcome
11:11	brainproxy	is there something like warn-on-reflection for clojurescript
11:11	brainproxy	ah see it here: https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/devnotes/corelib.org
11:11	brainproxy	but what's the correct usage?
11:12	eLobato	question, is there any clojure library that uses 'libgit2' to offer an interface to git? Or clj-jgit is the only thing that has been developed?
11:40	seangrove	brainproxy: What would it do in cljs?
12:00	brainproxy	seangrove: wasn't sure, something I've never come fully to terms with in any case
12:00	brainproxy	but I saw it listed, wondered
12:01	brainproxy	I'm starting to see garbage in my compiled js files if I edit a macro file during an auto build
12:01	brainproxy	it doesn't always happen
12:01	clojurebot	Huh?
12:01	brainproxy	but when it does, I have to do a cljsbuild clean and reckick the auto build
12:02	hiredman	brainproxy: I've had that recently when I had a cljsbuild auto that didn't die when I closed the terminal it was in, so I ended up with two running
12:03	brainproxy	hiredman: thanks! I had 3 running...
12:04	hiredman	paying it forward (dnolen suggested it to me after I had opened an issue for cljsbuild about it)
12:05	jcidaho	is anyone using clamq or an alternative? Clamq seems a bit dead
12:10	egosum	Is there a reason Clojure's compiler isn't two pass, with the first pass just declaring all the vars, so that forward declaration aren't necessary?
12:11	seangrove	egosum: Interesting question. Not sure though.
12:11	technomancy	egosum: that would make it fail to catch typos
12:11	seangrove	I believe the cljs compiler has passes now, but they're not used for forward declarations
12:11	egosum	technomancy: I'm not sure I follow?
12:12	dnolen	egosum: it means making the compiler more complicated for little perceived value
12:12	egosum	Couldn't it just declare top level defs, essentially?
12:12	dnolen	egosum: Clojure is fundamentally an expression level compiler
12:12	technomancy	egosum: (defn x [] (thingy 1)) (defn thing [n] ...) ; <- obviously a mistake, but with auto-forward-declare it succeeds
12:12	dnolen	egosum: sure but it's never going to happen
12:13	egosum	technomancy: that would still fail; `thingy` would never have been declared
12:13	technomancy	egosum: oh I see; you're proposing something else. never mind.
12:13	egosum	technomancy: Ah, sorry for being unclear
12:14	technomancy	egosum: no, it's just that most people who complain about foward declarations want to solve it a different way =)
12:14	technomancy	anyway, I appreciate the fact that the compiler is just (doseq [f forms] (eval f))
12:14	technomancy	much easier to understand
12:16	egosum	dnolen technomancy: It is more simple, it seems, from a structural perspective to be able to write code in logical order e.g. line 1-n (defn most-abstract-form-written-using-fns-i-haven't-defined-but-have-imagined) lines n—EOF defs filling in the blanks. Otherwise, you need to re-order your code.
12:16	dnolen	egosum: declare solves this problem
12:16	egosum	dnolen: declare is boilerplate
12:16	dnolen	w/o complicating the compiler
12:17	technomancy	egosum: it's certainly easier to not have to think about how you order your code before writing it
12:17	dnolen	egosum: in your opinion, anyways your points are going to fall on deaf ears
12:17	technomancy	however, I question whether "thinking less about order" is a good goal to have
12:17	egosum	dnolen technomancy: but I can appreciate the compiler simplicity
12:17	brainproxy	(inc hiredman)
12:17	lazybot	⇒ 29
12:18	technomancy	forcing you to think about order forces you to think about the relationship between different parts of your code
12:18	egosum	dnolen: I hope I haven't come across as hostile; I'm fine with using declare, I just am wondering about the reasons behind the design decision. I'm always interested in what smarter people than I think about
12:19	egosum	technomancy: I buy that, yeah
12:19	dnolen	egosum: it makes the compiler really simple to implement that's the main reason, and in practice it's not really a big deal
12:19	dnolen	egosum: in the 7500 lines of the CLJS standard library we have ~30 declare expressions
12:19	brainproxy	dnolen: is there a straightforward way to go from (cljs/analyze-symbol ...) to getting a form to pass back through the reader during compile time?
12:19	dnolen	not exactly a pain point
12:20	technomancy	egosum: it also helps when reading; you know that as you progress from top-to-bottom, you don't have to think about any functions you haven't seen yet.
12:20	egosum	dnolen: makes sense
12:20	dnolen	brainproxy: the ast preserve the original form under :form
12:21	brainproxy	dnolen: ok!
12:21	brainproxy	I can gen an ast using a func in cljs.compiler right?
12:22	dnolen	brainproxy: cljs.analyzer/analyze
12:22	brainproxy	oh duh, I see what you mean
12:22	brainproxy	I was making it too complicated :/
12:22	egosum	dnolen finally got around to using core.async since seeing you speak at 2sigma—had a great time using it, thank you for that into (though I ended up not using it with cljs)
12:22	brainproxy	but good times reading through the source in any case :)
12:23	egosum	technomancy: right, that is nice. It also acts as a sort of todo-list when writing code, which is how i tend to think about it
12:23	egosum	rather than relying on the compiler to tell me which var i've forgotten to define
12:23	dnolen	egosum: nice!
12:23	technomancy	clojurebot: use a map is https://twitter.com/krisajenkins/status/408625918362791936/photo/1
12:23	clojurebot	c'est bon!
12:25	egosum	are people using defn- these days, or ^{:private true}?
12:25	brainproxy	clojurebot: shared mutable state is http://image.slidesharecdn.com/concurrencygotchas-100408105435-phpapp01/95/slide-7-728.jpg?cb=1270742095
12:25	clojurebot	c'est bon!
12:25	technomancy	egosum: defn- absolutely
12:26	technomancy	anything that gets more people to be explicit about what part of their lib is an implementation detail is a wonderful thing
12:26	egosum	technomancy: k…that's what i thought. I'd recently come across a few examples with the meta tag instead, was wondering if the style had changed
12:26	technomancy	some people like the consistency with def since there's no def- but IMO that's silly
12:28	bbloom	technomancy: i do find it mildly annoying that there is no def-, defmacro-, etc. and then whenever you create any kind of def-ing macro you need to take care to copy the metadata across
12:29	bbloom	technomancy: i do use defn-, but i think i prefer the ^:private syntax across the board b/c otherwise some part of my brain has to resist the urge to define my own defwhatever-
12:29	coventry	You have to be careful to copy the metadata across anyway, no?
12:30	bbloom	yeah
12:30	bbloom	i have a love/hate relationship w/ metadata
12:30	bbloom	i love that it's there when i need it
12:30	bbloom	i hate that it's there when i forget to think about or look at it :-P
12:30	mikerod	Isn't :private anything really just a bad thing? Functions should be generic and reusable. :)
12:30	technomancy	bbloom: yeah, the arguments against adding def- are baffling to me
12:31	technomancy	mikerod: you should strive to communicate to your consumers what parts of the library are subject to change in minor bumps and where you're committing to compatibility
12:31	technomancy	mikerod: if someone is okay with breakage, they can go ahead and use private vars. it's just two more characters to do so
12:31	technomancy	but then when it breaks it's their fault
12:32	technomancy	bbloom: the rules about what preserves metadata and what doesn't seem really arbitrary
12:32	bbloom	technomancy: the argument is pretty simple to me: then what about defmacro- ? and what about defprotocol- or whatever? we already have a consistent syntax for arbitrary annotations that is much more future proof. i'd rather deprecate defn- :-)
12:32	mikerod	technomancy: True, so you use private to relay this information to consumers of a lib. I can see that argument. Sometimes I wonder if it should just be a "private" namespace of functions.
12:32	bbloom	technomancy: yeah, it's b/c each data structure needs to deal w/ metadata on their own
12:33	coventry	How about a def-private-def* macro macro? :-)
12:33	bbloom	coventry: i have on several occasions wanted a defdefmacro macro
12:33	technomancy	mikerod: if you have enough, sure
12:33	technomancy	enough vars, I mean
12:34	bbloom	coventry: i'd say like 30% of my macros are trivial wrappers around some (def f (comp whatever (fn ...)))
12:35	bbloom	technomancy: that's an interesting point. mikerod suggests making another namespace, which is a nice idea but suffers from the fact that the small amount of friction stops ppl from doing things like that
12:35	bbloom	pg wrote some thing about the "weight" of function names
12:35	bbloom	how smaller function names encourage more use subconciously
12:35	bbloom	he took it to an absurd extreme w/ arc, but he's right in many respects
12:35	technomancy	bbloom: which is why I heard defn-
12:35	technomancy	*heart
12:36	bbloom	if you want people to do stuff, you need to make it 1) the default or 2) absurdly easy to accomplish
12:36	mikerod	hmm, yeah I can see the weight of a namespace making it not happen in practice I suppose
12:36	mikerod	I just don't know that I'm a fan of seeing how carried away people get with defn-
12:36	bbloom	mikerod: it's entertaining to me how many dumb ideas have shown up in programming b/c people don't like to type a little bit
12:37	technomancy	bbloom: REGISTER_GLOBAL_VARS or whatever
12:37	bbloom	mikerod: it affected me for a long time. and it's poisonous in some communities
12:37	bbloom	technomancy: i'm thinking more of Ruby's const_missing
12:37	technomancy	oh heavens
12:37	mikerod	I like to question why something is private, and ask does it need to be or could it easily be generalized. I get that some things are just subject-to-change implementation details though obviously.
12:38	bbloom	when you try to evaluate `User`, you get const_missing('User') which basically winds up calling require("models/#{'User'.camelize}")
12:38	bbloom	weeeeeeee
12:38	bbloom	horrifying.
12:38	mikerod	bbloom: the fear of typing is real indeed.
12:39	bbloom	i much prefer the clojure way of just sticking lots of stuff in a namespace, but then you wind up with what mikerod mentioned about people getting crazy with defn-
12:39	bbloom	and you have the problem of private things being really internal things
12:40	bbloom	and you wind up having to refactor in to namespaces later anyway and delete all the ^:private metadata
12:40	technomancy	mikerod: what I really hate is having to make a change on a function that I should have declared as private and wondering "is this safe to change? I bet nobody's actually using this. I'll just go ahead and see what happens I guess?"
12:40	technomancy	reducing your surface area decreases your responsibility
12:41	technomancy	if someone wants to use it, they can deref the var and ask you to commit to maintaining it in future versions
12:41	mikerod	yeah, that's a valid downside it indeed
12:41	tommo__	can someone explain when i would use reduce/apply as opposed to the other?
12:42	coventry	tommo__: Have a look at the clojuredocs examples. If it's not clear from that, feel free to ask again.
12:42	tommo__	already did, thats why i resorted to here coventry :p
12:43	technomancy	tommo__: they're totally different. apply results in a single call; reduce results in one call per coll item.
12:43	teslanick	apply is something you do to a function, reduce is something you do to a seq.
12:43	teslanick	That's simplifying, but that's how I tend to think about them.
12:43	tommo__	so apply is basically (+ 1 2 3), and reduce would be (+ (+ 1 2) 3)?
12:43	coventry	Oh, I see why you're confused.
12:44	coventry	,(reduce #(do (pr [%1 %2]) (+ %1 %2)) [1 2 3 4 5])
12:44	clojurebot	[1 2][3 3][6 4][10 5]15
12:44	coventry	,(apply #(do (pr [%1 %2]) (+ %1 %2)) [1 2 3 4 5])
12:44	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (5) passed to: sandbox$eval63$fn>
12:44	coventry	,(apply #(do (pr [%1 %2 %3 %4 %5]) (+ %1 %2)) [1 2 3 4 5])
12:44	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4 5]3
12:45	tommo__	ahh i see
12:45	tommo__	thanks alot
12:46	coventry	The initial clojuredocs examples are confusing here, because they work roughly the same in those cases. (reduce + [1 2 3 4 5]) vs (apply + [1 2 3 4 5])
12:46	coventry
12:46	coventry
12:46	tommo__	thats what confused me
12:47	raek_	tommo__: 'apply' is useful when you want to pass a sequence of arguments from your function to another one. 'reduce' is useful when you want to combine all values in a sequence using a function that takes two arguments
12:47	tommo__	similar to what teslanick said
12:48	tommo__	ty
12:49	teslanick	I map the two functions to their javascript counterparts, because I'm far more familiar with JS. That introduces a degree of conceptual blindness about when to use them. So maybe it's not a helpful way to think about the two in all cases.
12:55	jonasen	Bronsa: https://www.refheap.com/21533
12:56	jonasen	Bronsa: ^ similar issue as yesterday?
12:57	Bronsa	jonasen: no, the method name needs to be munged, looks like I forgot to do it
12:58	TimMc	bitemyapp: I know you <3 tracing -- any tips on dealing with gigantic argument and return values?
12:58	TimMc	I'd love some kind of interactive trace analyzer where I can expand and collapse nodes.
12:59	justin_smith	TimMc: yeah, imho there should be a tracer that ouputs emacs org files
12:59	justin_smith	so you can expand for detail as you wish
12:59	justin_smith	I've thought of hacking that up myself
13:01	ohcibi	is there a function like map that gives me the last return value? so like a mix of reduce and map 8-)
13:02	coventry	,((comp last map) identity (range 5))
13:02	clojurebot	4
13:02	S11001001	which is the same as just taking the last thing and calling the function on it
13:03	ndp	,((comp identity last) (range 5))
13:03	clojurebot	4
13:03	`cbp	when is joy of clojure coming out? :P
13:03	coventry	S11001001: Only if the function is pure. :-)
13:03	S11001001	coventry: I'm just going to assume that :)
13:03	Bronsa	jonasen: pushed a fix
13:04	`cbp	ohcibi: for side effects?
13:04	jonasen	Bronsa: Awesome!
13:04	`cbp	or just (f (last coll))
13:04	ohcibi	`cbp: no side effects
13:04	`cbp	then just (f (last coll))
13:07	justin_smith	if coll is a vector (f (peek vec)) is much faster (linear rather than O(n) time), btw
13:07	justin_smith	just in general, probably does not apply here
13:08	justin_smith	* make that ~O(1) instead of O(n)
13:09	coventry	You mean constant rather than linear.
13:09	justin_smith	right
13:09	jonasen	Bronsa: That took care of one NoSuchMethodException. I've got another (on another piece of code): java.lang.NoSuchMethodException: clojure.lang.RT.get(java.lang.Object, clojure.lang.Keyword)
13:09	jonasen	I'll try to find a minimum failing test
13:10	jonasen	(might also be a bug in my code)
13:12	ohcibi	`cbp: I meant in (map f coll) that for each call of f I can pass something to the next call of f... what I want to do is iterate over a vector of vectors and select one element based on the index of the element that was taken from the last vector... where the first vector hast only one element..
13:12	Bronsa	jonasen: don't bother with finding a minimal case, just give me the piece of code that fails, I have a feeling I know what's going on
13:12	danneu	I keep clicking the "Mute" button on Github thinking I'm unmuting it. This icon fools my brain: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/spa/quq37nq1583x0lf/p-zlrg7x.png
13:15	jonasen	https://github.com/jonase/eastwood/blob/master/src/eastwood/analyze_ns.clj
13:15	jonasen	^ when I analyze that namespace
13:16	jonasen	I have a pass that reflects on :instance-call, :static-call, :static-field, :instance-field and :new
13:16	jonasen	I think it fails on a :static-call
13:16	jonasen	Bronsa: is that enough?
13:17	Bronsa	gah. this should trigger that (loop [a 1] (if true (get {} :foo) (recur ""))
13:17	coventry	ohcibi: You can do that with reduce. The return value of the fn you pass to reduce can be whatever you want.
13:18	Bronsa	indeed
13:18	coventry	ohcibi: Unless you also want the sequence of results to be returned like with map, I guess.
13:18	ohcibi	coventry: I want it to return a sequential
13:19	Bronsa	jonasen: thanks, I'll try to fix this, might take me a while though
13:19	ohcibi	coventry: i will reduce afterwards, but I need the single values first 8-)
13:19	jonasen	Bronsa: the code you pasted does trigger the same exception
13:19	jonasen	Bronsa: no hurry.
13:20	Bronsa	jonasen: yeah, the cause is similar to why (for [a nil]) was failing yesterday
13:20	coventry	ohcibi: reductions.
13:20	Bronsa	and it's terribily hard to debug validate-loop-locals
13:21	jonasen	Bronsa: the java reflection api is not smart enough to know that a java.lang.Keyword is a java.lang.Object?
13:21	ohcibi	coventry: perfect... thanks
13:21	Bronsa	jonasen: no, I'm tagging the method args with the wrong type :)
13:28	Bronsa	jonasen: ok that was easier than I thought, should be fixed now
14:20	rurumate	is there a canonical way to write hadoop jobs in clojure? I've been using clojure-hadoop so far, am I missing anything?
14:21	technomancy	rurumate: llasram has some stuff for that
14:21	rurumate	I see
14:25	llasram	rurumate: Oh yeah, my new stuff: https://github.com/damballa/parkour/ and the incumbent: https://github.com/nathanmarz/cascalog
14:30	mdrogalis	rurumate: It really depends on what you're trying to do on Hadoop.
14:30	mdrogalis	I've used about 5 different Java/Clojure frameworks. There's big trade-offs with each.
14:34	llasram	mdrogalis: Nah. I'm pretty sure Parkour is the right tool for all jobs :-D
14:34	seangrove	Hah
14:34	mdrogalis	llasram: Hah.
14:35	technomancy	cascalog seems like a lot more than just "write hadoop jobs in clojure"
14:35	technomancy	I mean it looks neat, but it's a very different paradigm
14:35	mdrogalis	It's pretty great since it brings a logic programming abstraction, but a few things from Cascading, the library underneath seep through.
14:35	mdrogalis	So it's not quite as intuitive as Datomic's datalog.
14:37	llasram	My current rule of thumb is that if I need more than 1 non-replicated join in sequence of jobs, I still reach for Cascalog
14:37	llasram	It's pretty killer at that
14:37	mdrogalis	Joins are pretty darn slow with Map-Reduce though. :/
14:37	seangrove	llasram: No storm?
14:38	llasram	mdrogalis: Oh yeah. Which is why I've managed to switch 90%ish of Damballa's jobs Parkour
14:38	llasram	seangrove: In what sense?
14:38	seangrove	llasram: Guess I'm not totally clear on the hadoop/storm divide, other than hadoop seems more batch oriented vs storm's continuous processing
14:39	seangrove	It seemed from a vague, far-off distance that storm would be nicer to work with overall
14:39	mdrogalis	That's pretty much it, seangrove.
14:39	llasram	seangrove: That's my understanding as well. Storm looks pretty slick, but I just haven't personally had an occasion yet to use it
14:39	mdrogalis	Some jobs truly need to be batch oriented, so Storm just don't fit.
14:39	seangrove	mdrogalis: Maybe hadoop's raw crunching ability/throughput is better though?
14:39	technomancy	storm doesn't have any analog to HDFS afaict, which is kind of the whole point of using hadoop
14:40	llasram	(inc technomancy)
14:40	lazybot	⇒ 87
14:40	llasram	Pretty much
14:40	seangrove	technomancy: The idea there being to keep the data close to the computation?
14:40	technomancy	seangrove: exactly
14:40	mdrogalis	Meh, it's a dated concern.
14:40	mdrogalis	Network speeds have caught up.
14:40	mdrogalis	Netflix uses Map-Reduce and keeps their data on S3.
14:41	llasram	We used to do that. Maybe it's gotten better in the... 2 years? since we invested in our own cluster, but my experience is on the order of a 100x speed-up
14:42	seangrove	llasram: That's pretty considerable.
14:42	noncom	what is the most idiomatic way to access and/or update a value in an arbitrary comples clojure datastucture? for example, I want to read or write or update an integer in a [] which is in a {} which is in a {} which is in a [] which is in a #{} which is in a [] which is in a {}, well you get the idea...
14:42	mdrogalis	llasram: Yeah, I mean, you need something like SSDs and infiniband to get equal performance, but you can get close otherwise now.
14:42	seangrove	noncom: assoc/update-in ?
14:43	hiredman	llasram: cluster for storage or for compute
14:43	hiredman	llasram: because I bet the slow down there would be ec2 compute, not s3 storage
14:43	llasram	It probably also depends on your data and your access patterns. If you have relatively small amounts of data that you preform heavy computation on, S3 is probably perfectly reasonable
14:43	seangrove	,(update-in [1 1 {:a [0 0 {:c 20}] :b 9} 3 3] [2 :a 2 :c] inc)
14:43	clojurebot	[1 1 {:a [0 0 {:c 21}], :b 9} 3 3]
14:44	mdrogalis	I mean, it's kind of the same reasoning for Datomic running queries right on the peer.
14:44	seangrove	,(assoc-in [1 1 {:a [0 0 {:c 20}] :b 9} 3 3] [2 :a 2 :c] 88)
14:44	clojurebot	[1 1 {:a [0 0 {:c 88}], :b 9} 3 3]
14:44	llasram	hiredman: You think so? Hmm. I was totally going in the other direction
14:44	mdrogalis	S3 is pretty slow to read off of.
14:44	seangrove	noncomm ^
14:44	llasram	You can always throw more money at EC2 for more compute on your nodes, but you can't make Amazon bounce our data to and from S3 any faster
14:45	llasram	s,our,your,
14:45	slpsys	amen
14:45	technomancy	it's not uncommon for me to see archives that download from S3 in less time than they take to untar
14:45	noncom	seangrove: cool! i just teted it in the repl, it works for {} and [], although, doesn't punch through #{} :/
14:46	brainproxy	dnolen: I just tried what you suggested earlier; :form only gives me the symbol
14:46	dnolen	brainproxy: what were you expecting?
14:46	llasram	This looks like it call for some empirical evaluation! Volunteers?
14:46	seangrove	noncom: Interesting, not sure how to approach that, since sets don't have guaranteed ordering
14:47	brainproxy	well, what I really want is to be able to get to the s-expr that the symbol points to on the cljs side
14:47	mdrogalis	llasram: Maaaybe another time :P
14:47	llasram	mdrogalis: Awesome. Let me know what you find!
14:48	mdrogalis	Uploads a 500 GB file under company's AWS account
14:48	mdrogalis	Innocent whistle
14:48	noncom	seangrove: hmmmm very true... i think i can't formulate what behavior i expect from sets here..
14:48	brainproxy	dnolen: I also tried using resolve-var from cljs.analyzer, and it finds the var, but there's no source/form associated with that, but there are :line :and column numbers
14:48	brainproxy	that's what I was alluding to originally when I asked about an easy way to extract...
14:49	dnolen	brainproxy: I don't know what you asking - the s-expr the symbol points to?
14:49	noncom	seangrove: although definitely there must be something as they (sets) are not terminals of the datastructure. only bnon-collection types are terminals
14:49	brainproxy	sorry, wasn't accurate with terminology
14:49	brainproxy	on cljs side I have (def xyz [...])
14:50	noncom	or maybe we have to treat a set as a terminal
14:50	noncom	and break the path in pieces if there are sets
14:50	brainproxy	and on clj side I have (defmacro resme [sym] (cljs.analyzer/... ...))
14:51	brainproxy	what I want is to be able to invoke resme with xyz from the cljs side, but resolve the [...] source on the clj side
14:51	noncom	the next piece is only valid if a value is present in the set
14:51	noncom	does it sound like nonsense?
14:51	seangrove	noncom: Yeah, I believe that will work...
14:51	noncom	ok, i'll try
14:51	seangrove	noncom: But then you need to have the data structure you're looking up in the set anyway
14:52	seangrove	But depending on your use case, it could work
14:54	noncom	seangrove: see, i am displaying the datastruct as a tree. and the user can visually type in a new value for any leaf. thus, if the leafs are separated by at least one #{} from the root of the tree, there is this problem. probably just have to treat sets as roots, update them separately and then update the whole set as a single atomic data type for the previous collection..
15:03	seangrove	noncom: In that case, you can probably just use assoc-in, since you can generate the path to the leaf you want to update
15:16	dnolen	brainproxy: yeah I have no idea what you are trying to do
15:17	dnolen	brainproxy: if you're trying to determine the form that xyz was assigned to via the analyzer this is not possible nor will it be
15:18	dnolen	brainproxy: at least out of the box, you could add a pass to do this yourself though but it's going to be expensive since you'll be saving the AST of all tops levels - you could only do this for special cases via metadata or something
15:19	justin_smith	is there a way to have my protocol default to noop / identity methods if they are not defined? I tried implementing it on object or record so that the superclass resolution would take care of it but I get an error about the class being closed
15:20	hiredman	justin_smith: that doesn't sound right
15:21	justin_smith	could be pebkac, I will double check and try this again
15:21	hiredman	the jvm doesn't even have the concept of a class being closed, since they are all "closed" to begin with
15:22	hiredman	so getting an error about classes being closed makes no sense
15:22	justin_smith	let me get that exact message again
15:26	justin_smith	hiredman: the problem is that if I define some subset of the protocol (to my new record type for example) and leave any of the methods unspecified, it is not inheriting from java.lang.Object, but instead just not finding a method
15:26	justin_smith	the previous was my misunderstanding/misremembering the problem
15:27	llasram	justin_smith: That's the way protocols work: all-or-nothing far a given implementation
15:27	justin_smith	llasram: OK, so I have no option for "specialize these two methods, and leave the other 9 at the default"
15:27	llasram	justin_smith: You can, just have to do it differently
15:27	justin_smith	do tell
15:28	llasram	You can use `extend` to pass in a map of implementations. The map is a plan map of protocol-function keyword to Clojure function. You can define a base implementation map, then `assoc` in specific implementations
15:28	hiredman	it is an a la cart thing, separating inheretence hierarchy from implmentation sharing
15:28	llasram	justin_smith: Check out clojure.java.io for a pretty good example
15:28	hiredman	if you want to share implementation you can create a custom macro for templating
15:29	justin_smith	cool, thanks guys
15:29	justin_smith	I guess I just expected it to act like implicit subclass inheritance
15:32	seangrove	technomancy: Is this still the way to add local jars?
15:32	seangrove	https://www.pgrs.net/2011/10/30/using-local-jars-with-leiningen/
15:35	bobajett	is "cond" different in clojure from elisp in that only one expression is allowed in clojure for a conditional?
15:37	hyPiRion	no, multiple expressions are allowed
15:37	coventry	bobajett: The syntax is different in that in elisp each pair is wrapped in an extra set of parens. Otherwise, it's the same.
15:38	hyPiRion	,(let [n 10] (cond (zero? n) :zero, (neg? n) :neg, (pos? n) :pos))
15:38	clojurebot	:pos
15:41	bobajett	,(let [n 1] (cond (< n 0) :neg, :else (print "hello") (print "goodbye")))
15:41	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: cond requires an even number of forms>
15:41	bobajett	hyPiRion: I think in elisp you can have multiple expressions follow a test?
15:42	justin_smith	bobajett: oh yeah, likely, because of the extra set of parens you could have an implicit do there
15:42	coventry	bobajett: Oh, yes, that's true.
15:42	hyPiRion	bobajett: yeah, that's true. You can do that in Clojure with the `do` macro
15:42	justin_smith	with clojure you can do that with do
15:43	hyPiRion	special form, rather
15:43	bobajett	ah awesome! you guys just cleared up my confusion! I need "do" to acheive the sme thing! thanks!
15:45	OscarZ	if i have a function x returning a vector with 3 values like [1 2 3] and i want to use that vector as parameters for some other function y so that it would called just like (y 1 2 3) .. can i do that ?
15:45	OscarZ	i know i can pass a vector and destructure it
15:45	dnolen	React is pretty incredible, lazy tree construction, faster diffing w/ immutable values - https://gist.github.com/swannodette/7813518
15:45	hyPiRion	OscarZ: use apply: `(apply y [1 2 3])`
15:45	dnolen	this boilerplate-y but it can made more awesome
15:46	hyPiRion	,(apply + [1 2 3 4 5]) ; == (+ 1 2 3 4 5)
15:46	clojurebot	15
15:46	OscarZ	hyPiRion: nice, i didnt realize that :) thanks
15:48	hyPiRion	np
15:49	dnolen	eric_normand: not sure how you are using React, but I have a basic approach that I think could be taken further ^
15:49	noprompt	dnolen: regarding the discussion in the gist, i'm a bit confused. am i to understand the direct use of renderComponent is less performant than the use of createClass + renderComponent?
15:50	eric_normand	dnolen: more than the gist you posted a few days ago?
15:50	coventry	dnolen: A few comments in these gists would hugely broaden their reach.
15:50	coventry	dnolen: For instance, I have no idea what (pure) does, and I've watched Pete Hunt's talk.
15:50	eric_normand	dnolen: I'm just using renderComponent with DOM
15:51	eric_normand	dnolen: trying to finish the app before I start refactoring
15:51	eric_normand	dnolen: though I would love hiccup style (at runtime, not a macro)
15:51	noprompt	eric_normand: if you're willing to accept the performance tradeoffs that should be fairly easy to do.
15:52	dnolen	one second
15:53	noprompt	eric_normand: it's fairly easy to build the hiccup style parser/compiler with extend-protocol.
15:53	dnolen	noprompt: coventry: eric_normand: gist updated with supporting code
15:53	noprompt	thanks.
15:53	eric_normand	dnolen: thanks
15:54	coventry	thanks x 3
15:55	eric_normand	noprompt: where is performance tradeoff?
15:56	dnolen	eric_normand: noprompt: in my gist I use createClass to just make a wrapper component
15:57	noprompt	eric_normand: i'm not sure if there is one, that's why i'm asking. i was confused by some of the comments.
15:57	eric_normand	dnolen: does that help in some way?
15:57	eric_normand	dnolen: that is, why keep the state in the component?
15:57	dnolen	eric_normand: I don't think you can write faster Rect code than what I've done
15:57	dnolen	in fact it should blow away what people are doing in JS w/ React
15:57	noprompt	does (enable-console-print!) do what it says on the tin?
15:57	dnolen	out of the water
15:57	dnolen	noprompt: it does
15:58	dnolen	pure create a node for diffing
15:58	dnolen	since we're in CLJS we're using immutable values
15:58	eric_normand	dnolen: because of the state dirtiness check?
15:58	dnolen	but that means we can use identity checks
15:58	dnolen	none of this horrible JS object traversal crap
15:59	eric_normand	dnolen: that makes sense, but is it faster than not having state?
15:59	eric_normand	dnolen: and traversing the virtual dom?
15:59	dnolen	eric_normand: what state?
16:00	eric_normand	dnolen: the value in (defmacro pure [value children]
16:00	dnolen	eric_normand: that's not really state
16:00	dnolen	it's just an immutable value used for diffing
16:01	eric_normand	dnolen: if I understand correctly, you are saying "re-render all children if this value is different from last time"
16:01	dnolen	eric_normand: yes, this everything that React does for JS, but faster and in a functional non-oopy style
16:02	eric_normand	dnolen: "but if it is the same, don't re-render"?
16:02	dnolen	eric_normand: yep
16:02	dnolen	so you can have a massive graph of UI
16:02	dnolen	update one tiny piece of it
16:02	dnolen	and this will BLAZE
16:03	eric_normand	dnolen: yeah, makes sense
16:03	eric_normand	dnolen: you just have to select your value carefully
16:03	dnolen	eric_normand: no, it's just the value that represent the value of the component
16:04	eric_normand	dnolen: right. but it means that if your children were depending on a global atom or something, you need to put the derefed atom into the value
16:06	dnolen	eric_normand: right, or you could just propagate that value into their "state", which is probably what you should do 95% of the time.
16:06	eric_normand	dnolen: and if that atom had a map with a bunch of irrelevant stuff, now I need to get rid of the irrelevant stuff
16:07	eric_normand	dnolen: that kind of invalidates the way I just designed this program
16:08	eric_normand	dnolen: global state in an atom
16:08	eric_normand	dnolen: and render the current value of the atom functionally
16:08	dnolen	this is still just a sketch, but I think it could be cleaned up a taken much further - this is going to rock :)
16:09	seangrove	Oh, god damn Java inner classes
16:09	eric_normand	dnolen: but having the comparison value as you do in the gist is awesome
16:09	eric_normand	dnolen: so I'm going to play with it and see where it goes
16:09	dnolen	eric_normand: cool
16:10	eric_normand	dnolen: I'm not sure if this happens generally, but in my case, the dom tree corresponds pretty closely to the state tree
16:10	eric_normand	dnolen: which would benefit a lot from this
16:10	eric_normand	dnolen: I am very excited about React right now
16:11	eric_normand	dnolen: the first "framework" that actually does some of the dom work for you :)
16:11	dnolen	eric_normand: yes this should always be true. We can represent UI as ... maps & vectors!
16:11	dnolen	and update it efficiently
16:11	dnolen	more efficiently than you ever could with popular JS patterns
16:14	egosum	Is there a preferred way to run tests (faster than lein test)?
16:15	llasram	egosum: From the REPL
16:16	eric_normand	egosum: for fast testing, I use clojure-test-mode in emacs
16:16	bitemyapp	TimMc: that's pretty rough, I usually make a trace-filterer and customize the tracing behavior to change the way the args get printed (elision, summarization, etc)
16:16	egosum	eric_normand llasram: that seems introduces all sorts of incidental bugs—reordering/renaming vars and the old vars persist in the running JVM. Or am I doing something wrong?
16:17	SegFaultAX	egosum: Reload the namespace(s) before running.
16:17	eric_normand	dnolen: clojurescript is paying its own way :)
16:17	TimMc	bitemyapp: In this case it's ring middleware, so I should probably use some ring-specific tracer, but... ugh.
16:17	eric_normand	dnolen: does react use google closure compatible requires/provides?
16:17	eric_normand	dnolen: can it be closure optimized?
16:17	dnolen	eric_normand: :) something like React is honestly the last piece of the puzzle for the CLJS story
16:18	egosum	SegFaultAX: does clojure-test-mode handle that for you?
16:18	eric_normand	dnolen: Last? that's optimistic
16:18	dnolen	eric_normand: React is ~27K gzipped, this is acceptable for what it provides a "view" story
16:18	dnolen	eric_normand: heh, well last for me - we know have the pieces to compete with JS MVC approaches
16:19	dnolen	s/know/now
16:19	eric_normand	dnolen: but core.async to get local event loops and React for a functional dom:
16:19	SegFaultAX	egosum: Dunno, not an emacs user.
16:19	SegFaultAX	egosum: Somehow I doubt it though.
16:19	eric_normand	dnolen: I have to say it: it also competes with pedestal
16:19	eric_normand	dnolen: (and wins in my book)
16:19	SegFaultAX	eric_normand: What does?
16:20	technomancy	egosum: it does
16:20	egosum	technomancy: thanks—just started reading the source
16:20	dnolen	eric_normand: yes but pedestal can't win against React for this specific use case since it wants to do more - React focuses on specific thing.
16:20	dnolen	s/on/one
16:20	llasram	technomancy: Oh, it does? I must have an old version. I don't rename tests frequently, but never noticed it wiping and reloading the NS before
16:20	eric_normand	dnolen: true, pedestal has a lot of developer tools, etc
16:20	bitemyapp	TimMc: yeah probably. are your requests really fat or something?
16:20	egosum	technomancy: i'm guessing you're using clojure-test-mode, then?
16:21	bitemyapp	TimMc: or the responses, I guess, would be?
16:21	egosum	(aside from you know, just writing it)
16:21	technomancy	egosum: not really
16:21	egosum	in addition to*
16:21	bitemyapp	TimMc: you can just summarize the "body" of the response if it's spamming you.
16:21	egosum	technomancy: what are you using these days?
16:21	eric_normand	dnolen: but it kind of punts on the UI, which I think is still the hardest part of web frontend
16:21	bitemyapp	I wouldn't recommend summarizing the request unless something strange is going on.
16:21	dnolen	eric_normand: but I also don't see really see them as incompatible. I think Pedestal could scale bake and integrate with how React works
16:21	dnolen	eric_normand: the other cool bit is that the server can render the right HTML for a particular UI state
16:22	dnolen	eric_normand: and the client will know exactly what's going on
16:22	dnolen	"scale bake" "scale back"
16:22	technomancy	llasram: it just reloads, not wipe+reload
16:22	eric_normand	dnolen: agreed re: scaling back
16:23	eric_normand	dnolen: the new branch of pedestal with core.async is way more understandable
16:23	eric_normand	dnolen: something similar with a virtual dom for the view would be great
16:23	technomancy	egosum: I'm working on replacing clojure-test-mode with something that's not hard-coded to emacs
16:23	technomancy	egosum: but also I'm not really writing any tests
16:23	llasram	technomancy: That's what I thought. I believe the specific issue under discussion is the way deleted/renamed test vars hang around
16:23	eric_normand	dnolen: about rendering on the server, do you mean running React in node.js?
16:24	dnolen	eric_normand: no you don't need the whole React infrastructure server side
16:24	bitemyapp	egosum: (require '[clojure.tools.namespace.repl :refer [refresh]]) (refresh) (require '[clojure.pprint :refer [pprint]]) (require '[clojure.data :refer [diff]]) (require '[clojure.repl :refer :all])
16:24	dnolen	eric_normand: just something that generates DOM w/ checksum attributes that's it
16:24	egosum	technomancy: Fair enough. I'm writing them as additional documentation, mostly. clojure-test-mode will work for me (thanks)
16:24	bitemyapp	that's my standard "test loop" macro in Emacs.
16:24	eric_normand	dnolen: I see. the client builds the virtual dom from the real dom?
16:25	eric_normand	dnolen: that's pretty cool.
16:25	dnolen	eric_normand: it doesn't need to build anything :) unless the user clicks something
16:25	dnolen	eric_normand: and boom, React knows what to change!
16:25	eric_normand	dnolen: that's a compelling story.
16:25	dnolen	fuck yeah it is
16:25	hyPiRion	bitemyapp: heard of Stuart Sierra's development loop? That one's kind of nifty for stuff
16:26	coventry	egosum, technomancy, llasram: I'v been meaning to experiment with putting something like (remove-ns 'ns-symbol) before the ns form to prevent the confusion from stale vars. Anyone tried something like that?
16:26	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: that's sort-of what I do.
16:26	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: except I don't go full architecture astronaut like him.
16:26	eric_normand	dnolen: and if you're sharing hiccup between the two, no big maintenance cost
16:26	technomancy	coventry: in slime you could do C-c C-l to wipe a namespace before loading it
16:26	hyPiRion	bitemyapp: hehe
16:26	dnolen	eric_normand: yep
16:26	technomancy	coventry: I don't think it's been ported yet
16:26	llasram	coventry: I think that would cause doom as vars in other NSs find the NS they used to refer to is gone
16:26	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: I do avoid def'ing bare vars with side effects in namespaces though.
16:27	bitemyapp	because it's fucking stupid.
16:27	bitemyapp	and it's bad for growing your code.
16:27	hyPiRion	or vars with mutable/global state in it
16:27	hyPiRion	oh, the pain
16:27	eric_normand	clojure: better than Java and use the java ecosystem
16:27	technomancy	bitemyapp: ugh we got a bunch of slamdhound bug reports from people who just loooove doing that
16:27	eric_normand	clojurescript: better than Javascript, and use the js ecosystem!
16:27	bitemyapp	bare vars pointing to values can't "grow" as well as functions that return data things are dependent on.
16:28	eric_normand	let those other guys code up a good library, we wrap it, and it's better!
16:28	eric_normand	does clojure clean up everything it touches? :)
16:28	hyPiRion	does Clojure clean up anything at all? :p
16:29	bitemyapp	technomancy: http://i.imgur.com/GwSrBuw.jpg
16:29	bitemyapp	eric_normand: no
16:29	eric_normand	bitemyapp: example?
16:30	bitemyapp	eric_normand: no types
16:30	coventry	technomancy: Thanks, will take a look.
16:31	eric_normand	bitemyapp: can you give me an example of something that clojure has wrapped that is not better than the original? Not saying it doesn't exist.
16:32	bitemyapp	eric_normand: oh, wrapped? then no.
16:32	eric_normand	bitemyapp: that's what I meant :)
16:32	bitemyapp	eric_normand: I mean, I could cherry-pick libraries, but at the language level, no.
16:32	bitemyapp	eric_normand: there are many terrible libraries though.
16:32	bitemyapp	terrible, terrible libraries.
16:32	eric_normand	bitemyapp: yeah, agreed
16:32	bitemyapp	like Korma and it's relationship with c.j.j
16:33	eric_normand	bitemyapp: I don't like korma either. Did too much
16:33	bitemyapp	eric_normand: I'm a maintainer on Korma, I think the basic design and idea is solid, but it needs to be reworked.
16:33	hyPiRion	Well actually, when thinking about it, Clojure has wrapped regexes nicely
16:33	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: what?
16:34	hyPiRion	like, Java regexes
16:34	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: what?
16:34	bitemyapp	what was wrapped?
16:34	tommo	regex's are not specific to java
16:35	bitemyapp	tommo: I'm sure everybody here knows that. He's probably talking about the API.
16:35	technomancy	"Everything's a function in Clojure; it's great!" / "Oh cool. Even regexes?" / "No, not regexes."
16:35	eric_normand	bitemyapp: the classes Pattern, Match, etc
16:35	technomancy	=(
16:35	eric_normand	technomancy: I cried when I heard that, too
16:35	bitemyapp	wouldn't that have effectively turned strings into functions?
16:35	eric_normand	just string literals with # in front
16:36	eric_normand	but I don't know how it should work
16:36	technomancy	bitemyapp: strings are final
16:36	hyPiRion	bitemyapp: more like actually writing them, like #"\\" vs "\\\\" (as an example)
16:36	eric_normand	should it be like re-match, re-find, re-seq?
16:36	technomancy	(regexes are final too, but no one in the history of clojure has ever used regexes for interop, so it doesn't matter)
16:36	osa1	hello everone. I'm currently playing with LightTable, is there a way to use it's browser and editor for ClojureScript currently?
16:37	eric_normand	btw, I'm not saying clojure makes things perfect
16:37	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: oh, yeah, that's an improvement.
16:37	bitemyapp	eric_normand: have you used a language with a nice type system?
16:37	technomancy	that is the official story anyway. ("and that's final.")
16:37	technomancy	bitemyapp: haha; I asked him that like just last week
16:38	eric_normand	bitemyapp: never. Only used Java, C, and Haskell.
16:38	coventry	Bwahaha
16:39	bitemyapp	coventry: arg/resp elision.
16:39	coventry	bitemyapp: Sorry, I don't follow.
16:40	eric_normand	Haskell's type system has some benefits.
16:41	eric_normand	And maybe it's not the type system's fault, maybe it's just the language itself.
16:41	eric_normand	(it's hard to say when the type system is so integral to the language)
16:43	eric_normand	I can say this: I miss types at times.
16:45	eric_normand	I think row types may have solved a lot of what I don't like about Haskell, but I'm not sure, since I never used row types
16:46	coventry	Where can I read about row types?
16:46	coventry	google(haskell row types) returns a thicket.
16:46	brehaut	i think puffnfresh might have an introduction to them on his blog
16:47	brehaut	http://brianmckenna.org/blog/row_polymorphism_isnt_subtyping perhaps?
16:47	coventry	Thanks, brehaut
16:47	brehaut	nope its not really an intro. ignore me
16:48	brehaut	maybe it'll help anyway
16:48	coventry	Yeah, I can understand that.
16:49	eric_normand	coventry: this may be useful: http://cufp.org/sites/all/files/slides/2013/kmett.pdf
16:53	eric_normand	coventry: the answers to this question look decent: http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/1qol5n/ermine_presentation/
16:54	eric_normand	coventry: the main reason I was thinking row types was because of how we use maps in clojure: just look at the keys you care about, ignore the rest
16:54	S11001001	eric_normand: now that core.typed has heterogenous map types perhaps you'd like to try it? :)
16:54	eric_normand	coventry: this reduces coupling between modules
16:55	eric_normand	S11001001: core.typed is on my list of things to try
16:55	coventry	eric_normand: Thanks, those slides are pretty challenging, but I'll take a look.
16:56	eric_normand	coventry: it's basically saying "this function accepts any type that has field 'a' of type 'Int', regardless of other fields and their types"
16:56	eric_normand	coventry: which is a great form of polymorphism that supports a lot of reuse
16:56	coventry	Oh, cool. That is a great idea.
16:57	bitemyapp	coventry: he's using the wrong terminology, you want "row polymorphism"
16:58	bitemyapp	coventry: lenses + row polymorphism is how the cool kids write Haskell.
16:59	bitemyapp	row polymorphism is built on nested pairs (tuples)
16:59	bitemyapp	you can write your code as if you were writing in a dynamically typed concatenative language if you wanted (in Haskell)
16:59	bitemyapp	not sure why you would, but you could.
16:59	eric_normand	but that's how it goes with types: you always want more :)
16:59	bitemyapp	eric_normand: row polymorphism is less, not more.
17:00	bitemyapp	people that want more are hacking Agda and Idris, not fucking with tuples.
17:00	coventry	It's a broader domain for your function, so in that sense it's more. :-)
17:00	bitemyapp	we're talking about types.
17:00	bitemyapp	and how to leverage them. it's not more.
17:02	eric_normand	bitemyapp: but then you want more expressive types
17:02	bitemyapp	I need scotch for this conversation to continue and I have none.
17:02	bitemyapp	eric_normand: it's a multi-faceted, multi-dimensional subject.
17:03	bitemyapp	and not one you're doing a very good job of talking about in a meaningful capacity, so lets drop it before dnolen has a hairy canary.
17:03	eric_normand	bitemyapp: agreed. I would love to be schooled, but not now.
17:03	bitemyapp	I don't want to school anybody, I want people to stop strawmanning type systems.
17:04	eric_normand	bitemyapp: ok, let's stop talking about it.
17:04	bitemyapp	let's supposed to be a contraction of "let us"?
17:04	bitemyapp	is let's*
17:05	bitemyapp	serious question.
17:05	eric_normand	yes
17:05	coventry	$google let's let-us
17:05	lazybot	[let's - Wiktionary] http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/let's
17:05	bitemyapp	good to make certain.
17:06	eric_normand	bitemyapp: good change of subject :)
17:06	bitemyapp	eric_normand: there's no intent here, I was more interested in verifying that than entertaining a strawman.
17:07	noncom	as far as i understand, every anonymous (fn) creates a new class, so it can ruin permgen, right?
17:07	eric_normand	bitemyapp: bad change! you went back!
17:07	noncom	if anused too much i mean
17:07	noncom	s/anused/abused :)
17:07	bitemyapp	noncom: write a test, find out.
17:07	eric_normand	noncom: I might be wrong, but I believe that was fixed
17:08	eric_normand	noncom: but a test would do the trick!
17:08	coventry	noncom: This was discussed on IRC recently. I believe the conclusion was that it's not a problem.
17:08	hyPiRion	hm
17:08	bitemyapp	I'll never understand programmer hesitation to employ empiricism.
17:10	noncom	,(let [a (repeatedly 999999999 (fn [] (fn [x] (+ 1 x))))] a)
17:10	clojurebot	(#<sandbox$eval29$fn__30$fn__31 sandbox$eval29$fn__30$fn__31@1a9759d> #<sandbox$eval29$fn__30$fn__31 sandbox$eval29$fn__30$fn__31@68a394> #<sandbox$eval29$fn__30$fn__31 sandbox$eval29$fn__30$fn__31@1cb6ca2> #<sandbox$eval29$fn__30$fn__31 sandbox$eval29$fn__30$fn__31@491938> #<sandbox$eval29$fn__30$fn__31 sandbox$eval29$fn__30$fn__31@116bd1d> ...)
17:10	hyPiRion	nah, won't evaluate all
17:10	hyPiRion	,(last (repeatedly 1e7 #(fn [a b] (a (b a)))))
17:10	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval61$fn__62$fn__63 sandbox$eval61$fn__62$fn__63@139bfb>
17:10	noncom	hmmmm
17:12	coventry	Good to know. I didn't realize clojure's print functions are smart enough to only evaluate the displayed parts of a lazy function.
17:12	coventry	s/function/structure/
17:12	TimMc	bitemyapp: But I only have 500 lives left! Every compiler error consumes one.
17:14	eric_normand	(loop [] (fn []) (recur)) runs at 140% CPU and 200MB memory
17:14	TimMc	noncom: Every place you write fn in the code corresponds to a class; every time that part of the code is executed, a new instance of that class is created.
17:15	coventry	So I guess you could hose the permgen by (eval)ing a lot of fn.
17:15	TimMc	To ruin permgen, you'd need something like (loop [] (eval '(fn [])) (recur))
17:15	noncom	no guys, don't worry, i'm just stupid
17:16	noncom	oh, that's what.. i'd never guess
17:16	bbloom_	the more js/rb i write, the more i <3 clojure. ::group hug::
17:16	noncom	so evaling an (fn) actually creates a class
17:16	TimMc	Compiling it, yes.
17:17	noncom	still ain't really used to that part of lisp
17:17	bitemyapp	bbloom_: you made a serious mistake following me on Twitter.
17:17	bbloom_	bitemyapp: ok fine. you're unfollowed
17:17	bitemyapp	bbloom_: good, you're not invited to the salad.
17:18	coventry	How does a set of eval'd fn's not get a corresponding set of classes?
17:18	bitemyapp	bbloom_: you couldn't handle it anyway.
17:18	TimMc	noncom: You can see in your example above that your inner fn's class is sandbox$eval29$fn__30$fn__31 and you keep having new instances of it.
17:18	seangrove	I have an announcement: I will be attending the meteor.js devshop/meetup tonight instead of the clojure meetup.
17:19	bitemyapp	seangrove: I'm disowning you.
17:20	noncom	so that fn does not really get evaled?
17:20	dnolen	seangrove: shameful
17:20	bitemyapp	seangrove: there are many things that are suitable excuses for not coming to the Clojure meetup, but tonight is the lightning talk one!
17:20	noncom	oh well..
17:20	seangrove	S'alright, I'm going to feel the crowd out a bit.
17:20	bbloom_	seangrove: you're going to discredit meteor, right? :-P
17:20	`cbp	(dec seangrove)
17:20	lazybot	⇒ -3
17:20	bitemyapp	(dec seangrove)
17:20	lazybot	⇒ -4
17:20	seangrove	Jesus christ, I must have the lowest karma in here now
17:20	technomancy	wow, harsh
17:20	bbloom_	aw c'mon
17:20	bitemyapp	seangrove: leave your badge and lambdas on the desk.
17:20	bbloom_	(inc seangrove)
17:20	lazybot	⇒ -3
17:20	llasram	(inc seangrove)
17:20	lazybot	⇒ -2
17:20	bbloom_	i think he deserves 0 karma at worst
17:20	bitemyapp	$karma bitemyapp
17:20	lazybot	bitemyapp has karma 15.
17:20	bitemyapp	how am I higher karma than seangrove?
17:20	dnolen	seangrove: I recently read the scaling Meteor.js post that was on HN, I'm really surprised people use it
17:20	bbloom_	(dec bitemyapp)
17:20	lazybot	⇒ 14
17:20	bitemyapp	karma isn't karmic :(
17:21	seangrove	bitemyapp: Sacha Greif is staying with me and presenting at the meetup, so that's the reason I'm going
17:21	dnolen	(inc seangrove)
17:21	lazybot	⇒ -1
17:21	bbloom_	seangrove: you're at -1
17:21	technomancy	I would inc him, but I am a bit wary of the ecological implicaitons of http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Meteor_(Final_Fantasy_VII)
17:21	bitemyapp	(inc seangrove)
17:21	lazybot	⇒ 0
17:21	bitemyapp	seangrove: forgiven.
17:21	seangrove	I tried to convince myself that there's some overlap with meteor.js and cljs, but just can't really find any.
17:21	bbloom_	seangrove: that's a sentinel value for "unbounded"
17:21	bitemyapp	SG is a good reason.
17:21	technomancy	bitemyapp: maybe because he used to go by seangrov` all the time
17:21	bitemyapp	$karma seangrov`
17:21	lazybot	seangrov` has karma 0.
17:21	technomancy	(identity seangrov`)
17:21	lazybot	seangrov` has karma 0.
17:21	technomancy	hm
17:21	bitemyapp	nope.
17:21	bitemyapp	he came by the negative karma honestly :)
17:22	seangrove	Haha
17:22	seangrove	More or less
17:22	hyPiRion	(inc seangrove)
17:22	lazybot	⇒ 1
17:22	seangrove	I am curious to talk to some of the meteor guys about react though
17:22	seangrove	They're all pretty impressive distributed systems people
17:22	bitemyapp	what?
17:22	clojurebot	what is cells
17:22	bbloom_	seangrove: meteor is much more about the model layer
17:22	bbloom_	react doesn't provide any model layer stuff
17:22	bitemyapp	seangrove: I don't think you mean distributed systems.
17:22	seangrove	Curious to hear what they're doing around simplifying ui programming
17:23	seangrove	bitemyapp: They're mostly very impressive MIT people who were working on distributed systems before
17:23	bbloom_	also react is all about taking out the stupid 2-way data binding from your views... why would you want to add 2-way databinding to your models too?
17:23	seangrove	Well, I don't know "mostly" anymore... about a year ago anyway
17:23	bbloom_	"you know, my database is pretty nice to work with. i'd really like to make it more like my annoying UI code"
17:23	bbloom_	booo.
17:23	bitemyapp	there's something perverse here.
17:24	seangrove	bbloom_: Yeah, so I'm not sure I see a huge win with meteor beyond a cool use of ddp
17:24	seangrove	But smart people are interesting to talk to, and often have surprising insight
17:24	bbloom_	http://www.meteor.com/blog/2012/03/21/introducing-ddp says:
17:24	bbloom_	"DDP is a standard way to solve the biggest problem facing client-side JavaScript developers: querying a server-side database, sending the results down to the client, and then pushing changes to the client whenever anything changes in the database."
17:24	bbloom_	that is far from the biggest problem in any javascript client app i've ever used
17:25	bitemyapp	Meteor is as far from how Clojure people usually like to design things as I can possibly imagine.
17:25	bitemyapp	it also solves a solved non-problem in the worst way possible using semantics that don't even really make sense at scale.
17:25	bitemyapp	(declarative, idempotent expression of intent > stateful bit smashing) for talking to the backend.
17:26	bbloom_	when dnolen and i talked to petehunt the other day he mentioned https://github.com/petehunt/react-graph
17:26	bbloom_	david & i suggested he study datomic :-P
17:26	alandipert	bbloom_: DDP looks sane, and afaict the rest of meteor is par-for-blub while being very nicely documented
17:26	bbloom_	but his readme shows he's on the right track :-)
17:26	seangrove	bbloom_: Yeah, but I'm working on some UI stuff, so curious at least to see how they're approaching it over the next year or so
17:27	seangrove	I'm really blown away at how bad writing ui's in js/cljs is right now, amazingly bad
17:27	bitemyapp	bbloom_: that react-graph repo is something I've wanted for awhile.
17:27	bitemyapp	historical client-state.
17:27	bitemyapp	toss in pluggable asynchronous synching to a backend and you're in business.
17:28	bbloom_	bitemyapp: i dunno if pete has been in here yet, but the next time he's on irc, i'll make sure he starts idling in here
17:28	dnolen	seangrove: you should look more closely at React, bbloom was dead on
17:28	bitemyapp	bbloom_: plzdo.
17:28	dnolen	seangrove: I was afraid it was good tech but couldn't be used in a functional way from CLJS - happy to know I'm wrong
17:28	bbloom_	(inc reactjs)
17:28	lazybot	⇒ 1
17:29	alandipert	(+ reactjs 0.2)
17:29	dnolen	bbloom_: so I have a basic approach to reactjs that should be faster than what React can offer JS devs based on petehunt's suggestions
17:29	alandipert	oh
17:29	bbloom_	dnolen: nice. gist?
17:29	dnolen	bbloom_: https://gist.github.com/swannodette/7813518
17:29	bbloom_	alandipert: i can't comment on the impl of DDP w/o digging in to more details
17:29	seangrove	dnolen: I'm working on combining react in a pluggable way with hiccup-syntax that can compile out to various implementations, bootstrap/foundation/closure ui, etc.
17:30	dnolen	bbloom_: as suspected we can use =, and we can instantiate the tree only when we need it
17:30	bbloom_	dnolen: fast equality checks are like the best thing to ever happen to anything ever
17:30	dnolen	bbloom_: we can rerender from the root and it will be fast, and we don't need to adopt any goofy OO stuff
17:30	bbloom_	dnolen: told you :-P
17:31	dnolen	bbloom_: ;)
17:31	alandipert	bbloom_: i've only read https://github.com/meteor/meteor/blob/master/packages/livedata/DDP.md
17:31	bitemyapp	I really wish Clojure had docstrings.
17:31	bbloom_	dnolen: i think this is like the 3rd time you ignored me for 6 months until you realized i was right. you should start "give it 5 minutes" to more random shit i say :-)
17:32	dnolen	bbloom_: haha noted
17:32	ivan	bitemyapp: do you mean triple-quoted strings?
17:32	bbloom_	alandipert: i'll try to look in a bit
17:33	noprompt	react is nuts.
17:33	noprompt	and by nuts, i mean awesome.
17:33	alandipert	bbloom_: oh, not recommending, so no worries :-)
17:34	bitemyapp	ivan: yes.
17:34	bitemyapp	I am tired of escaping "
17:34	eric_normand	source maps in cljs are rocking my world!
17:34	OscarZ	whats react about? some new web framework? :)
17:34	bbloom_	alandipert: tab closed. :-P
17:35	ivan	OscarZ: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7cQ3mrcKaY
17:35	bbloom_	dnolen: looking at your gist. yeah the single "value" key is the trick i was suggesting
17:35	bbloom_	so their internal shallow copy doesn't cause us issues
17:36	bitemyapp	OscarZ: frontend stuff.
17:37	OscarZ	ok.. are there some new revolutionary ideas ?
17:37	noprompt	OscarZ: i supposed that would be your call.
17:37	bitemyapp	OscarZ: revolutionary? no, but people are starting to move beyond callbacks (the goto of async).
17:38	bitemyapp	There are no revolutions in computer science because blub programmers exist.
17:38	noprompt	:(
17:38	bitemyapp	only incremental dragging of intransigent lazy-bones into the future.
17:38	noprompt	;_;
17:38	dnolen	bbloom_: yeah, React is pretty rocking. I'm curious to see if we can beat Backbone on the TodoMVC benchmark w/ this
17:38	dnolen	bbloom_: if we can you can expect a blogpost :)
17:38	bitemyapp	noprompt: be happy.
17:39	noprompt	:)
17:39	noprompt	XD
17:39	bitemyapp	noprompt: http://i.imgur.com/GwSrBuw.jpg
17:40	noprompt	ugh, i picked up a cold over the holidays and getting information in to my brain is like trying to give a dog medicine that isn't wrapped in bologna.
17:40	OscarZ	yeah i havent done much front end but enough to know what the callback mess... i saw some tutorial on pedestal, it uses some kind of queue to make things sequential
17:40	bitemyapp	noprompt: My insomnia flared up and I started eating less. I'm living on coffee, tea, and hatred these days.
17:41	asteve	noprompt: so I have to trick you into thinking it's food and then throw it at your face so you catch it?
17:41	bitemyapp	OscarZ: it's closer to a core.async DAG of channels, but yeah, close enough.
17:41	bbloom_	OscarZ: apparently the pedestal stuff has changed quite a bit recently. i have no idea what it's like now
17:41	bitemyapp	noprompt: also stop reminding me how I don't have a dog :(
17:41	bitemyapp	bbloom_: there are some core.async agitators in the ranks.
17:42	noprompt	dnolen: this is a great hack.
17:42	OscarZ	i wanted to do things like.. "wait these 3 callbacks to do their thing and then do this"
17:42	OscarZ	theres deferred in jQuery for that.. but thats all i used..
17:42	bitemyapp	OscarZ: core.async is good for that.
17:42	OscarZ	i guess these frameworks are for sorting this kind of thing?
17:43	dnolen	noprompt: heh, I wouldn't call it a hack :) I came to that solution after picking petehunt and balpert's brain in #reactjs
17:43	OscarZ	cool.. i should look into core.async
17:43	OscarZ	can core.async be used on client side as well ?
17:43	dnolen	noprompt: but you maybe you just meant it's cool code, then I agree w/ that
17:43	bitemyapp	OscarZ: only because of CLJS, but yes.
17:44	bitemyapp	OscarZ: being used in CLJS was a design goal for core.async.
17:44	seangrove	bbloom_: It looks like pedestal and react independently converged on quite a few ideas
17:44	bitemyapp	~reactjs
17:44	clojurebot	reactjs is a poorly implemented comonad
17:44	bbloom_	no, no it isn't
17:44	bbloom_	clojurebot: forget reactjs
17:44	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
17:44	bitemyapp	clojurebot: forget bbloom
17:44	TimMc	Hmm, eval'ing '(fn []) in a tight loop is generating 1000 classes per second, but they're getting cleaned up.
17:44	clojurebot	Huh?
17:44	noprompt	dnolen: i'm of the mind that everything is pretty much a hack client side. haha! but yes, it's definitely cool.
17:44	bitemyapp	~bbloom is afraid of comonads
17:44	clojurebot	In Ordnung
17:45	OscarZ	bitemyapp: cool.. thought its more for server side processing queues etc..
17:45	OscarZ	prolly can be used for that too of cos
17:45	noprompt	:(
17:45	bitemyapp	OscarZ: it's good for anything async. Really.
17:45	bitemyapp	OscarZ: I use it to clean up callback bullshit all the time.
17:45	bitemyapp	server and client-side.
17:45	OscarZ	cool
17:45	bitemyapp	cultureshipname: GCU: Only Free Men Can Negotiate
17:47	TimMc	http://i.imgur.com/7WliQqW.png
17:48	noprompt	dnolen: this plus core.async. i wanna fall out my chair. but i have hard wood floors.
17:50	noprompt	dnolen: so i guess my next question would be, how much stuff do you put in a component? i mean how big should these things be?
17:51	bbloom_	noprompt: as small as possible but no smaller
17:51	bbloom_	also worth asking in #reactjs
17:51	noprompt	bbloom_: good point.
17:52	noprompt	bbloom_: i was more or less thinking of nesting components.
17:53	noprompt	i think it's time to go get some pho.
17:55	dnolen	noprompt: I suspect they can be very large for us
17:55	dnolen	noprompt: at some point I'd like to do some benchmarks
18:01	bitemyapp	TimMc: looks like the GC is keeping up with the stuff that fell out of scope. Seems fine to me.
18:03	TimMc	bitemyapp: Yeah, but it shows that I was wrong about it messing up permgen.
18:04	TimMc	That also means I can't knock over clojurebot with this:
18:04	TimMc	,(let [evil ((symbol "eval") (ns-publics 'clojure.core))] (dotimes [_ 500000000000] (evil '(fn []))))
18:04	bitemyapp	TimMc: it's churning the PermGen.
18:05	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
18:05	bitemyapp	TimMc: you weren't wrong about that, you were just wrong about how smart it is about scoping.
18:05	bitemyapp	TimMc: there's still possibly a way to smash the PermGen with this.
18:05	TimMc	Oh, heh.
18:05	bitemyapp	spawn threads + long sleep.
18:05	bitemyapp	shouldn't be able to harvest then. I would think.
18:06	bitemyapp	new anonymous fn in each executable thread before it sleeps.
18:06	OscarZ	after long time lurking i've been starting to actually code Clojure lately.. doing project euler exercises.. learning basic stuff about map, filter, sequences etc..
18:06	bitemyapp	I don't think Euler is a good way to learn Clojure.
18:06	bitemyapp	4Clojure is better for learning the API.
18:07	bbloom_	(inc 4clojure)
18:07	lazybot	⇒ 2
18:07	OscarZ	yeah was going to ask what you guys think would be a good next step.. what APIs or concepts to learn
18:07	seangrove	I'd agree that 4Clojure is probably a reasonably good approach to start with
18:09	bitemyapp	OscarZ: 4Clojure and clojure book are my usual recommendations.
18:09	bitemyapp	~clojurebook
18:09	clojurebot	Excuse me?
18:09	bitemyapp	~clojurebook is http://clojurebook.com
18:09	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
18:10	bitemyapp	OscarZ: ^^
18:10	OscarZ	was impressed how easy it is to "compose" stuff from smaller building blocks
18:11	OscarZ	bitemyapp: ok.. ill check it out.. i have a clojure book on kindle that ive been reading when ive had time.. Programming Clojure i think
18:11	tommo	im working through that too, its really good
18:15	OscarZ	yeah its a nice book.. ive had it for some time, have read a chapter or two once in a while.. should have started actually coding earlier :)
18:16	sritchie	magnars: would it make sense to add gzip support?
18:17	sritchie	for static resources?
18:18	bitemyapp	sritchie: to what?
18:18	sritchie	to optimus
18:18	sritchie	though, from looking at the discussion,
18:18	bitemyapp	sritchie: you shouldn't be serving static assets from something like that.
18:18	sritchie	what do you mean
18:18	sritchie	something like optimus?
18:19	OscarZ	4clojure looks nice.. i think ive tried it a bit long time ago
18:19	bitemyapp	sritchie: if you care enough about performance to worry about gzipping, you should be statically compiling assets and deploying to an nginx server or a CDN.
18:19	sritchie	it looks like you get more wins from adding gzip as a middleware and compressing any response, dynamic html included
18:19	sritchie	bitemyapp: I'm using a CDN for static assets
18:19	sritchie	cloudfront, which refreshes from optimus
18:19	bitemyapp	if you're fronting with cloudfront then why are you worried about gzipping in optimus?
18:20	sritchie	I didn't realize cloudfront gzipped
18:20	bbloom_	bitemyapp: cloudfront doesn't do it's own gzipping
18:20	bitemyapp	bbloom_: wow.
18:20	sritchie	well, there we go
18:20	bitemyapp	so my conclusion at that point would be to not use a CDN that doesn't gzip, of all things.
18:20	bbloom_	bitemyapp: cloudfront serves whatever you give it
18:20	bbloom_	what level of gzip should it use?
18:20	bbloom_	what resource types should it gzip for?
18:20	bitemyapp	shouldn't the headers decide this?
18:21	bbloom_	gzip slows performance for some file types
18:21	bbloom_	cloudfront has two modes
18:21	bbloom_	basically read-through caching or write-through caching
18:21	bbloom_	in the write-through mode, you can literally just give it a .http file
18:21	bbloom_	w/ a raw response & it will inject a header or two & that's that
18:22	bbloom_	but that requires you add stuff to your deployment process
18:22	bbloom_	the read-through approach is way easier, but it serves whatever you serve
18:22	sritchie	bbloom_: so sounds like gzipping ANY text response, + html, is the right way to go
18:22	sritchie	via middleware
18:23	sritchie	(for hosts that accept gzip)
18:23	sritchie	which means that cloudfront will get the benefits
18:23	bbloom_	yes
18:28	sritchie	bbloom_: do you know if cloudfront keeps separately cached items for gzip vs not?
18:28	bbloom_	sritchie: yeah, per-encoding header, i believe
18:28	sritchie	bbloom_: meaning, if it gets a file once with gzip, then a client asks that doesn't support gzip, does it refresh
18:28	sritchie	okay
18:28	sritchie	nice
18:29	sritchie	bbloom_: but with huge expires headers, the first time you fail to return a gzip version when cloudfront asks for gzip,
18:29	sritchie	you're hosed until you change the file
18:29	sritchie	which is fine
18:29	bbloom_	this is all relatively well documented on the amazon site
18:30	akurilin	Hey folks. I'm trying to find the most maintenance-free way of dumping error logs from both our various frontends and backend. I could just make a new ring app with a db on the existing PG instance, but I'd rather not. I'm thinking of something like Parse or Dynamo as this hassle-free log dump. Any thoughts?
18:30	OscarZ	bitemyapp: why you think project euler is a bad way to learn clojure?
18:33	bitemyapp	project euler has more to do with math than programming.
18:33	bitemyapp	and not even the interesting math.
18:34	technomancy	and everyone knows you need a type system to do math
18:34	OscarZ	interesting.. would it be better to use something like Haskell for that?
18:34	bitemyapp	no.
18:35	bitemyapp	euler is boring no matter what language you use.
18:35	bitemyapp	Haskell isn't necessarily any more well suited for mathy things than anything else.
18:35	technomancy	OscarZ: I'm just messing with bytemyapp
18:35	hiredman	it's true, otherwise you'll try and add two different kinds of numbers together
18:35	technomancy	bite
18:35	bitemyapp	ouch dude.
18:35	OscarZ	:)
18:36	bitemyapp	hiredman: it's better than the 31-bit Ints in OCaml.
18:37	jwieringa	Interesting, I was just using euler to learn more about Clojure and spent more on Wikipedia reading about Mathematical functions :)
18:38	brainproxy	dnolen: yes, you understood what I was trying to do
18:38	OscarZ	jwieringa: its wrong. now you have to get drunk and erase it all :)
18:38	bitemyapp	jwieringa: that's kinda the point.
18:38	brainproxy	found a difference mechanism that works better in the first place, so it's fine
18:39	brainproxy	dnolen: I had thought maybe there would be an easy way to tease the info out of the analyzer, gave it a naive go
18:39	brainproxy	s/difference/different
18:40	jwieringa	bitemyapp: Yeah, the timing of the conversation was good :)
18:41	dnolen	brainproxy: we don't store AST information, only the usual metadata on top levels + function info for optimization
18:42	brainproxy	dnolen: right, well I'm learning, today was the first I spent some serious time in the analyzer/compiler/etc codebase poking around, fun stuff
18:45	eric_normand	how did it get to be quarter to six?
18:45	eric_normand	I've got to stop logging into irc :(
18:45	bitemyapp	eric_normand: it didn't - because it's actually 1545
18:45	technomancy	time travel
18:45	eric_normand	bitemyapp: off by two error!
18:47	bitemyapp	eric_normand: you middle-country people don't exist.
18:47	devn	eric_normand: some of my best and worst moments have been captured on IRC
18:47	bitemyapp	devn: you're nothing but a lazy sequence of moments, with the universe itself (take ...)'ing from you.
18:48	bbloom_	is there any good paper/explaination/details about the transient implementations? reading their code is only a little enlightening
18:49	bitemyapp	bbloom_: that's one slightly annoying thing about stuff I find in Clojure, there's often less published work backing the implementation.
18:50	bbloom_	shrug for the most part the impl is absurdly simple
18:50	bitemyapp	I'm not speaking only about impl.
18:50	bbloom_	the data structures are pretty much the only interesting part of the implementation
18:50	bitemyapp	not talking only about Clojure's implementation...
18:50	bbloom_	oh ok then
18:51	hyPiRion	re transient impl: I'll possibly write something about them in January
18:51	bitemyapp	hyPiRion: preemptive thank you
18:51	bbloom_	hyPiRion: cool
18:51	bbloom_	hyPiRion: does that mean you can give me a 5 sentence explaination now? in particularly PHM. PV makes much more sense to me
18:51	eric_normand	devn: I have never really been much to chat online. I'm liking it and glad I'm a little hooked. Otherwise, I would never do it.
18:52	bitemyapp	eric_normand: I grew up on IRC and cll, thus why I'm a terrible person.
18:53	eric_normand	bitemyapp: that explains it! I was on cll, once. ONCE!
18:53	eric_normand	but I kid
18:53	eric_normand	there are some really great posts on cll
18:54	hyPiRion	bbloom_: Wish I could, but I want to be really sure I understand them properly
18:54	bbloom_	heh
18:54	bbloom_	ok then
18:54	bitemyapp	I'm pretty sure I spent the first 60% of my programming life believing evil correlated with intelligence because of cll and IRC.
18:54	arrdem	bitemyapp: that explains so much...
18:54	arrdem	cll not even once.... irc all day erry day
18:54	bitemyapp	well, time to stop relinquishing my secrets and go back to plotting the demise of my enemies.
18:55	hyPiRion	I usually end up understanding something halfway through my own explanation, and have to rewrite because I haven't taken that stuff into account
18:55	bbloom_	hyPiRion: always good for your understanding tho
18:56	bbloom_	i have dozens of blogposts that i started to write but stopped b/c i learned something
18:56	bbloom_	:-P
18:56	hyPiRion	bbloom_: yeah, it's wonderful, but I don't want to explain something I'm not sure I completely understand myself :p
18:56	bitemyapp	Speaking of cll, I want conditions and restarts.
18:56	hyPiRion	re those 5 sentences
18:57	arrdem	bitemyapp: we don't have a jvm bytecode goto. not gonna happen.
18:58	bitemyapp	arrdem: could fake it.
18:58	bitemyapp	not the goto, the state preservation.
18:59	arrdem	the state preservation sure... restarting in place no way... restarting from the top sure.
19:00	arrdem	but then you just have a try with a loop around it :P
19:00	bitemyapp	arrdem: that's not state-preserving.
19:00	bitemyapp	arrdem: I could think of multiple ways to do it in a language not Clojure that shall go unnamed.
19:03	bitemyapp	arrdem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_bytecode_instruction_listings I see a goto.
19:03	bitemyapp	arrdem: I think you meant that Java doesn't have goto, the JVM certainly does.
19:03	bitemyapp	probably needed it for implementing exceptions sanely.
19:04	bitemyapp	too bad they did exceptions the wrong way.
19:05	arrdem	so given that we have a goto... why don't we have TCO? is it that we do class generation rather than bytecode emission?
19:05	amalloy	the jvm's bytecode goto is restricted to staying within the same method
19:05	bitemyapp	arrdem: we use methods.
19:06	amalloy	and also rich wanted clojure function calls to be java method calls, otherwise interop looks pretty bad
19:06	bitemyapp	arrdem: look at Frege to see the other evolutionary branch.
19:07	arrdem	amalloy: okay yeah that's what I thought.
19:08	arrdem	still... you have jumps to word aligned addresses... with that you could splat out several entire
19:08	arrdem	"methods" into a single function and then just provide a wrapper to make it look sane
19:09	bitemyapp	arrdem: have you looked at Frege? It's a really cool language for thinking about how to target the JVM.
19:09	arrdem	bitemyapp: I only just learned about it :P
19:11	bitemyapp	arrdem: excellent opportunity to learn!
19:12	arrdem	bitemyapp: first I need to beat deft into submission and start a clojure.RT and JVM pre CinC reading list then add that...
19:17	bitemyapp	arrdem: props for making SimpleVM a register machine btw.
19:18	arrdem	bitemyapp: why are you looking at that shitheap
19:18	arrdem	thanks tho :P
19:20	arrdem	really it's more of a heap machine than a register machine... it provides an infinite register set which really means that all its ops are memory->memory
19:22	noprompt	omg. <3 pho.
19:23	bitemyapp	noprompt: $10 bowl of broth.
19:23	noprompt	bitemyapp: nah they hook it up out here.
19:24	bitemyapp	$10 bowl of broth and poorly prepared, nearly flavorless noodles/meat.
19:24	noprompt	bitemyapp: :\| that sir is not the case.
19:24	rasmusto	hahahahaaha, I remember this conversation
19:24	bitemyapp	noprompt: pho is a waste of money.
19:24	rasmusto	ramen supremacy
19:24	arrdem	bbq is king
19:24	noprompt	bitemyapp: startups are a waste of money, pho is not.
19:25	bitemyapp	noprompt: except for the one I work at, sure.
19:25	noprompt	bitemyapp: i can't speak for pho in the bay but here in fresno i'm pleased to say the pho scene is good.
19:26	bitemyapp	http://www.cpptips.com/term_except
19:26	bitemyapp	noprompt: I've had pho in most corners of the country. It was all a waste of time and money.
19:27	noprompt	bitemyapp: you need to take of those lollerskates buddy.
19:27	noprompt	*off
19:27	bitemyapp	noprompt: come to SF, I'll show you real food.
19:28	noprompt	bitemyapp: pretty sure i just ate "real" food.
19:28	bitemyapp	http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/1s6wb6/a_modified_approach_to_comonadic_cellular/
19:28	bitemyapp	noprompt: you ate peasant broth at first world prices.
19:28	noprompt	bitemyapp: i'm pretty sure there was blood in it which is what i want.
19:29	arrdem	clojurebot: offtopic \|is\| #clojure-offtopic is #emacs
19:29	clojurebot	Ok.
19:29	bitemyapp	noprompt: goulash and borscht are superior alternatives.
19:29	noprompt	bitemyapp: i'm sure they are.
19:29	noprompt	and i will eat them too.
19:29	bitemyapp	noprompt: also, kapusniak.
19:30	bitemyapp	now I want kapusniak. dammit.
19:30	rasmusto	had some of this the other day: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinuguan
19:30	noprompt	rasmusto: now that's what i'm talking about.
19:31	noprompt	rasmusto: anytime there's blood and organs in a bowl of stew i'll be the first at the table.
19:31	rasmusto	noprompt: <3 (and ears/tail/snout/liver...)
19:31	akurilin	now you made me hungry
19:31	noprompt	rasmusto: my ex was philipino but her mom never made that dish. :( i feel cheated.
19:32	noprompt	rasmusto: she did make ox tail soups a lot though. that was pretty good.
19:32	rasmusto	sounds rich
19:33	noprompt	bitemyapp: you take me to get blood soup.
19:34	bitemyapp	noprompt: no
19:34	noprompt	bitemyapp: fine. organ meat then.
19:40	arrdem	amalloy / bitemyapp: any hints for starting reading the Clojure core, or do I just need to spend a week with coffee?
19:41	bitemyapp	arrdem: avoid coffee, drink tea if you want caffeine.
19:41	rasmusto	drink blood tea
19:41	arrdem	rasmusto: BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD
19:44	brehaut	http://amultiverse.com/tag/corn-god/
19:45	scottj	arrdem: clojure or java parts?
19:45	bitemyapp	is the core.clj bootstrap that interesting?
19:46	bitemyapp	realistically the more interesting bits are going to be in Java.
19:49	arrdem	scottj: I've read some of the clojure bootstrap and I've written lisp bootstraps before. It's the java bits that I'm curious about.
20:35	dpetrovics	anyone know if there is an analog of jquery's wrap-all in Enlive?
20:35	dpetrovics	Im looking to wrap a div around all elements in the set of matches from an Enlive selector
20:38	dpetrovics	never mind-- looks like wrap actually does that-- I assumed it would wrap each match
20:41	amalloy	dpetrovics: fwiw, it's a useful rule of thumb that not many clojure functions "do x to each y". it's more flexible to just "do x to y", and then use map if you want it on multiple things
20:42	coventry	Going back to the earlier question about permgen and fn creation, the only ill effects of (last (repeatedly 1e8 #(eval '(fn [] "foo")))) seems to be that it runs forever (three hours on my system.)
20:43	dpetrovics	amalloy: here's what I mean-- looks like the at form actually does apply the transformation to each match
20:43	dpetrovics	(at [{:tag :p :content ["foo"]} {:tag :p :content ["bar"]}] [:p] (wrap :div {:class "outer"}))
20:44	dpetrovics	that will actually wrap each
20:44	dpetrovics	p element
21:01	bbloom_	dnolen: finally got brenton to look at react too :-)
21:07	bitemyapp	noprompt: you should've come to the Clojure meetup and given a talk.
21:08	noprompt	bitemyapp: man, that would have been awesome. i really want my life to get back to normal.
21:09	noprompt	bitemyapp: i'm going to be talking about clojure two days a week for six weeks starting january.
21:32	ddellacosta	I want to do a union of two vectors of hash-maps, but based only on the value of a specific key/value pair (id). What is the most efficient way to do this?
21:34	ddellacosta	sorry, I meant intersection, not union
21:34	amalloy	ddellacosta: that's too vague a request for me to really understand, but "most efficient" has got to be the wrong question
21:35	amalloy	learn how to do it at all, and then if it really really matters you can worry about what's efficient
21:38	hyPiRion	(into {} (for [[k v :as entry] m1 :when (= entry (find m2 k))] entry)) is probably okay-ish
21:40	ddellacosta	amalloy: ouch
21:40	ddellacosta	let me restate the question
21:40	sritchie	shot in the dark - anyone played with infinite scroll in cljs?
21:40	amalloy	hyPiRion: vector of maps
21:40	ddellacosta	Say I have [{:a 1 :b 2}{:a 2 :b 3}] and [{:a 1 :b 2}{:a 3 :b 6}] --I want to get [{:a 1 :b 2}] in the end
21:41	hyPiRion	oh, eh.
21:42	ddellacosta	oh, but I should qualify that further-- even if the value for :b is different in the second vector, I want to get (one of the vectors values for) the map with :a that has value 1
21:43	amalloy	i mean, that sounds like just doing (group-by :a ms) on each vector, and then working with them as maps
21:47	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: group-by + merge
21:48	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: map reduce (group-by :id ....)
21:48	bitemyapp	map reduce merge (group-by :id ...)
21:48	ddellacosta	amalloy, bitemyapp: thanks, will try these. Messing about with clojure.set now
21:49	sritchie	technomancy, I can't track it down - what was your rec about how to inject :aot :all AFTER the prep tasks?
22:10	ddellacosta	feel like I could do this better: https://www.refheap.com/21549
22:11	bitemyapp	"Clojure is basically lazy by default" yeah. uh huh.
22:11	ddellacosta	bitemyapp, amalloy: I tried with group-by, but wasn't sure how it helped me get the answer I wanted...probably wasn't thinking about it correctly though.
22:11	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: merge each group
22:11	ddellacosta	bitemyapp: that gave me a union though, and I wanted an intersection
22:12	bitemyapp	ddellacosta: oh sorry, set/intersect + select-keys
22:20	deadghost	what's #'
22:20	deadghost	google doesn't like stuff like that
22:20	bitemyapp	deadghost: var
22:20	deadghost	k
22:20	bitemyapp	deadghost: where did you see it?
22:20	coventry	deadghost: http://clojure.org/reader
22:21	arrdem	,((require 'clojure.pprint)(#'clojure.pprint/pprint {:foo :bar :baz {:many-key :so-nested} :wow true}))
22:21	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve var: clojure.pprint/pprint in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
22:21	deadghost	after a ran a function for scraping
22:21	deadghost	it's a little confusing because I spent the last money in CL
22:21	deadghost	*month
22:43	arrdem	devn: as long as you promote regexes to IFn while you're at it, I'l all for it.
22:45	arrdem	deadghost: I'm curious... can you offer any compelling reason to really master CL/Guile? I tried to use CL a few times and the lack of packages or propper module structure really rubbed me the wrong way.
22:46	deadghost	arrdem, why do you think I'm on clojure
22:46	technomancy	guile is pretty great for interop inside a larger system
22:46	deadghost	I couldn't string enough packages together to write a simple scraper
22:55	arrdem	deadghost: oh ok. I was hoping that you had sucessfully used CL for something serious. And yeah. The library infrastructure, clojars and leiningen are totally killer features for Clojure over the other Lisps I've played with.
22:56	deadghost	clojure definitely left a better first impression
22:56	deadghost	nope, tried and failed
22:58	Qarry	deadghost, everyone hates me. =(
22:58	Qarry	Even Chousuke
23:00	deadghost	although leinin is mad at me
23:00	Qarry	deadghost, Vladimir Lenin?
23:00	deadghost	but I figure that's because marmalade is borked and I got it off melpa
23:01	mikerod	how can I get lein test to show output from println or similar functions
23:01	mikerod	i.e. show me stdout stream stuff
23:01	mikerod	`lein test`
23:02	Qarry	Chousuke, sä etkään oli täällä katsoksesi suomeani parentua
23:03	deadghost	arrdem, how was your CL experience?
23:04	deadghost	what did you try writing?
23:04	arrdem	deadghost: I looked at CL before clj, used CL for one class assignment and then despite my prof's warnings about not having any clj sample code I threw out his CL codebase and went it solo for the term. worked out great, thanks in no small part to #clojure
23:05	arrdem	deadghost: the project was a toy pascal compiler
23:12	echo-area	True or false: If I'm adding an extra argument to many functions and the purpose of this argument is all the same, I can make it a dynamic var
23:12	echo-area	Will it look like weird?
23:13	arrdem	dynamic vars seem to be considered an anti-pattern... but I'd be OK with it
23:14	echo-area	I have concerns on if it's idiomatic rather than pattern, and I'm okay with it too, but I still want suggestions
23:14	echo-area	Is there any drawback on this?
23:15	echo-area	I personally haven't seen any
23:15	echo-area	(Although I have to use binding-fn, but that's a price to pay)
23:15	arrdem	the main question (or issue) is that dynamic vars play badly with threads and lazyness
23:17	echo-area	I'll get a non-lazy result at the end of the "scope" I set the dynamic var up.
23:19	echo-area	But I think it would be easier to address the problem if I intentionally leave the root value of the var to be unbound
23:19	echo-area	s/the problem/problems
23:19	coventry	echo-area: Sounds OK for a quick hack prototype, but it will complicate your life over the long haul if you keep it that way.
23:23	echo-area	coventry: The most clean way, as I can see, is to pass the arg on every function call.
23:23	coventry	Yeah, that's a sane approach.
23:24	echo-area	Hmm, maybe dynamic scope is only for temporarily altering behavior of some part of the program
23:24	echo-area	Only for this scenario can it be clean
23:25	technomancy	echo-area: if you invoke dynamic binding, you must also take responsibility to ensure nothing lazy escapes its scope
23:25	technomancy	sometimes that's easy and sometimes that's impossible
23:27	echo-area	I have to figure out a sane way
23:27	echo-area	Thanks for the suggestions
23:35	echo-area	Is it weird that I create some functions in let's lexcial binding?
23:37	arrdem	as long as you aren't emitting defs from there you're fine
23:37	arrdem	in theory at least
23:38	echo-area	No I'm not. But I may have to use letfn. To me this sounds like a compromise between dynamic scope and adding args to many more functions
23:39	echo-area	It does make testing a bit hard, so hmm
23:40	echo-area	I'd better fall back to use an extra arg for those functions
23:48	brainproxy	echo-area: what's the extra arg for?
23:48	echo-area	brainproxy: More like for the usage of state, context, or configuration
23:49	brainproxy	echo-area: have you explored the State monad pattern, it's pretty nice for that
23:49	echo-area	brainproxy: No, I hear about this for the first time. I'm search for it. Thank you!
23:50	brainproxy	echo-area: here's a clojure based tutorial to give the idea
23:50	brainproxy	http://www.clojure.net/2012/02/10/State/
23:50	brainproxy	there are now several libraries that implement State and other monad apis
23:50	brainproxy	protocol-monads, algo.monads
23:51	brainproxy	fluokitten
23:53	technomancy	without the compiler's help it's arguable as to whether that results in simpler code
23:54	brainproxy	technomancy: depends on how much power you pack into the macros/sugar around monads
23:54	brainproxy	with a good implementation of `do` i find it helps me, but i could be weird or misguided
23:57	brainproxy	in any case, it's really just a patter; programmers can "taste and see", and use it appropriately if they find it useful
23:57	brainproxy	*pattern
23:58	technomancy	yeah, give it a try
23:59	technomancy	I have seen some very messy monadic code in clojure but I don't want to rule out the possibility that it can be done well
23:59	brainproxy	I'm doing a sizable project with them currently; my biggest complaint is that the code density gets extremely high
23:59	brainproxy	basically just lots and lots of symbols