#clojure – 2013-11-25

2013-11-25

00:15	jjjddd0	Hi all, can anyone tell me what htis does:
00:15	jjjddd0	{#'out out}
00:17	coventry	jjjddd0: Play around with it in the repl.
00:18	coventry	,(let [out 'foo] ({#'out out} #'out))
00:18	clojurebot	foo
00:18	jjjddd0	its hard to google for macros sometimes, {# yields no results
00:18	jjjddd0	is there a goto list somewhere ?
00:18	allenj12	hey what would be the best data structure if i wanted nested keywords so live {:john {:name --- :age --- :address { :street ...}}} etc...
00:19	allenj12	a hash-map-map?
00:19	justin_smith	jjjddd0: the docs for the reader help. all the reader macros are mentioned there http://clojure.org/reader
00:19	justin_smith	also, there is http://symbolhound.com/ for looking up programming language symbols other engines don't index
00:20	justin_smith	http://symbolhound.com/?q=%23%27+clojure for example (that is a search for #')
00:21	jjjddd0	justin_smith: that one isnt in the reader macros list
00:21	bitemyapp	justin_smith: oh man, that is nice.
00:21	justin_smith	jjjddd0: it is, it is listed as Var-quote
00:21	bitemyapp	justin_smith: you have no idea how nice this will be for Haskell
00:22	justin_smith	jjjddd0: from there you would follow up to look up var
00:22	jjjddd0	oooh I see
00:22	jjjddd0	should've been looking for #' not {#
00:22	jjjddd0	thanks
00:22	justin_smith	np
00:23	bitemyapp	jjjddd0: { ... } is just a map yo.
00:23	justin_smith	jjjddd0: yeah, that {#'x x} would be read as {} with #'x and x inside may not be the easiest thing to intuit at first
00:23	jjjddd0	yep got that now
00:24	justin_smith	but the rule is that # precedes the thing it qualifies
00:24	bitemyapp	jjjddd0: like #inst "2013-03-03"
00:24	jjjddd0	but so.. what is it doing ? that's abit confusing
00:24	justin_smith	it introduces a reader macro
00:25	justin_smith	something that transforms the input as it is read, before it is evaluated
00:25	jjjddd0	creating a map with a var as a key and it's value set to... ?
00:25	justin_smith	jjjddd0: yeah, that is odd - perhaps it has a special behavior if you ask it to do something with #'out
00:25	justin_smith	out is always the default place for printing functions
00:26	jjjddd0	it's here line 11:
00:26	jjjddd0	https://github.com/Raynes/tryclojure/blob/master/src/tryclojure/models/eval.clj
00:26	justin_smith	so clearly it is a situation where something is saying if this thing is bound to our current output port, than return out (whatever that is bound to)
00:27	jjjddd0	i see, it's overidding a var 'out' with a custom output stream
00:27	justin_smith	probably something like that, yeah
00:28	justin_smith	though usually you would do that by just binding out
00:28	jjjddd0	because out is a standard var in clojure right ?
00:29	jjjddd0	clever
00:29	justin_smith	yeah, it is the magic default place that print goes, if you rebind it, that changes where print prints to
00:29	justin_smith	(and the other functions that call print, of course)
00:29	jjjddd0	thanks for your help all
00:29	justin_smith	np
00:31	Raynes	justin_smith: Thanks for providing free customer support for my projects.
00:32	justin_smith	lol
00:32	Raynes	You're a pal.
00:32	justin_smith	I'm just a compulsive pedant, love a chance to try to teach something
00:32	justin_smith	especially if it is short term, no commitment :)
00:33	Raynes	You and amalloy should have babies.
00:38	bitemyapp	man babies. ma-bies.
01:30	bellkev	Is there any kind of convention clojure programmers follow for ordering there function inputs so that it's easier to compose them with "threading"? I've noticed that sometimes when I "thread" it happens that "thread-last" works better and other times normal threading works, but it's annoying that it seems kind of arbitrary depending on the input order...
01:31	justin_smith	a sequence should go last, an indexed collection should go second
01:32	justin_smith	in general
01:32	justin_smith	err, first arg, second place in the form
01:34	bellkev	This is the example that I started trying to write with thread-first, though "Oh, shit, this won't work", and then thought "Oh, this will work with thread-last..."
01:34	bellkev	https://gist.github.com/bellkev/7637204
01:35	bellkev	It feels like a total coincidence that it worked though :P
01:35	justin_smith	you generate a collection, and pass it through each function
01:35	justin_smith	collection args canonically go last
01:36	justin_smith	*sequential collection
01:36	bellkev	Ah, that makes sense
01:36	bellkev	Now that you put it that way I feel better
01:38	justin_smith	there is also as-> for more flexibility
01:38	bellkev	I was kind of thinking of the string in the split term as being "collectiony", but now I can see it as a "collection generator" and a "collection collapsor" or whatever
01:38	justin_smith	though it requires explicitly marking where the arg comes in
01:39	bellkev	Interesting, I'll have to look into that...
01:41	justin_smith	,(as-> 1 $ (+ $ 3) (if (> $ 2) $ (* $ $)) (inc $))
01:41	clojurebot	5
01:41	justin_smith	also allows multiple references to the passed value, as you see
01:47	bellkev	So, it's kind of like a little miniature 'let', but with less syntax and without the implicit 'do'?
01:47	bellkev	And for only one variable-ish thing?
01:47	justin_smith	yeah
01:48	justin_smith	if you macroexpand it that is exactly what it is
01:48	bellkev	okay, that seems handy
01:48	justin_smith	it is a handy way to express some stuff, yeah
01:48	justin_smith	and when you name it $ it is almost like you are doing perl or something
02:32	blur3d	if I have a list of hash maps, does clojure have a way to pull out certain keys? kind of like a ruby active record pluck
02:33	blur3d	using select-keys works, but was wondering if something was already in core
02:33	blur3d	(map #(select-keys % keys) coll)
02:33	TEttinger	blur3d, sure. what condition do you want the keys under? do you mean values or keys?
02:33	justin_smith	,(map #(select-keys % [:a :b :c]) [{:a 0 :b 1 :c 2 :d 3} {:a 1}])
02:33	clojurebot	({:c 2, :b 1, :a 0} {:a 1})
02:34	TEttinger	(inc justin_smith)
02:34	lazybot	⇒ 13
02:35	blur3d	yeah, that works fine - I was just wondering if it was common enough to be in core under something like pluck [coll keys]
02:35	justin_smith	no, it would be a one liner if you want to write it
02:35	blur3d	kk, cheers
02:35	justin_smith	the general clojure philosophy is to have a small number of functions that compose well and all use the same datatypes
03:03	sveri	hi everyone, let the IDE wars begin, which IDE do you use for clojure development on windows? A friend of mine tried to convince me to use emacs now for one week, but we still dont have everything running as we would like :(
03:06	justin_smith	not a windows user, but I have gotten emacs working on windows before
03:06	justin_smith	I saw a demo of cursive that was pretty impressive
03:06	justin_smith	I bet that works fine on windows
03:07	justin_smith	http://cursiveclojure.com/
03:07	sveri	hm, i tried cursive, it opened the clojure files, but i could not get the tests running
03:15	sveri	any cursive users here? is it already possible to run unit tests with cursive? or am i trying something that doesnt work yet?
03:20	justin_smith	sveri: it has a repl, you can load the namespaces that define the tests and use (test/run-tests)
03:20	justin_smith	though I would be surprised if it did not have a shortcut for that
03:21	sveri	justin_smith: i just cannot find one :D
03:21	sveri	however, i found the repl
03:21	justin_smith	as in, you haven't written any tests yet?
03:22	justin_smith	or, you haven't found the "run tests" button
03:22	sveri	i haven't found the "run tests" button, the tests are there already
04:25	davidbe`	I've a question on how to connect to an Oracle db: when running a query, I get an error that there's no suitable driver found for jdbc:oracle:thin:@<path-to-db>:1521:dwh. This url should work, using SQuierreL SQL, I can connect. I guess it has to do with requiring/using ojdbc6.jar... How can I solve this?
04:26	davidbe`	Or should I add ojdbc6.jar to project.clj?
04:33	clgv	davidbe`: you usually need to add the driver jar to the classpath of your application on the jvm
04:34	clgv	davidbe`: in a Clojure project adding it to project.clj when using leininingen is the way to go
04:34	davidbe`	I'm not that familiar with Java and beginning with clojure... where do I place ojdbc6.jar and how to add it to project.clj?
04:36	davidbe`	I've put it first in ./src (lein classpath mentions it)
04:36	jowag	davidbe`: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9898499/oracle-jdbc-ojdbc6-jar-as-a-maven-dependency
04:38	jowag	and http://stackoverflow.com/questions/18249901/clojure-lein-cant-find-oracle-jdbc-driver
04:40	davidbe`	jowag: thanks, I'm checking it out. 10 minutes ago, stackoverflow was down. Lucky it's up again!
04:53	clgv	davidbe`: with leiningen you usually do not place a jar anywhere. you specify the jar as a maven-style dependency in the the project.clj and leiningen downloads it for you
04:59	TEttinger	(inc clgv)
04:59	lazybot	⇒ 9
04:59	TEttinger	(inc jowag)
04:59	lazybot	⇒ 1
05:00	clgv	TEttinger: thx - you cant have too much karma these days ;)
05:01	TEttinger	$karma TEttinger
05:01	lazybot	TEttinger has karma 6.
05:02	TEttinger	$karma technomancy for fun
05:02	lazybot	technomancy has karma 86.
05:09	davidbe`	clgv: but how for ojdbc6.jar?
05:11	clgv	davidbe`: what is there project site?
05:11	davidbe`	I've been going through the pages jowag was giving me, but it meant the installation of maven (I'm new to jvm...) and now it errors because there is no POM in this directory...
05:11	dsrx	(dec dsrx)
05:11	lazybot	You can't adjust your own karma.
05:11	davidbe`	ojdbc6.jar is the driver for Oracle DB
05:11	jowag	are you using leiningen?
05:12	davidbe`	jowag: yes
05:12	jowag	lein is using maven underneath
05:12	davidbe`	jowag: ow...
05:12	davidbe`	searching the internet doesn't give me a clear example/help. It always says that ojdbc6.jar should be in your classpath
05:13	davidbe`	that's it, no more. I'm clueless :)
05:13	clgv	davidbe`: it seems that oracle does not publish this driver as maven artifact, right?
05:14	jowag	try this, add this repo in your project.clj, :repositories [["codelds" "https://code.lds.org/nexus/content/groups/main-repo"]]
05:14	davidbe`	clgv: sorry, I cannot answer that. I don't know how maven works...
05:14	Jarda	does the repl have some specia case for (float) printing
05:14	jowag	and then add [com.oracle/ojdbc6 "11.2.0.3"] as a dependency in project.clj
05:14	clgv	davidbe`: ok I found it. add [ojdbc/ojdbc "14"] to your project.clj in the dependecies part
05:15	Jarda	because in dev repl (float (read-string "19.9")) prints 19.9
05:15	Jarda	but in production the same code inside a ring-app produces 19.899999618530273
05:16	davidbe`	clgv: that gives "could not find artifact ojdbc [..] in central"
05:16	clgv	oh well I have no clue which is the right dependency. there is also the following on maven: [com.oracle/ojdbc14 "10.2.0.4.0"]
05:17	clgv	but it seems those are only pom-files which isnt useful...
05:18	clgv	go with jowags hint there is a jar in the repo he mentions
05:20	davidbe`	clgv, jowag: okay, I'll look into that. Thanks already!
05:22	clgv	devidbe`: your project.clj needs the :repositories entry and the vector with oracle ojdbc dependency like here: https://www.refheap.com/21231
05:22	clgv	davidbe`: ^^
05:29	davidbe`	clgv: we have a winner =)
05:30	edbond	help please with cljs - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/20189860/export-deftype-methods
05:31	davidbe`	clgv: thank you! I'm only wondering, with some experience with Ruby's gem and Haskell's cabal, how one can find the jar's you need in Java-world!? Those centralized repos give less headaches :)
05:32	cYmen	Could somebody help me spot the error in this: https://www.refheap.com/21233
05:32	cYmen	It's a 4clojure problems.
05:32	cYmen	-s
05:32	cYmen	Probably some sort of type equality thing because the result looks correct.
05:33	TEttinger	davidbe`, that's exactly what maven central is
05:33	TEttinger	there's also clojars
05:34	TEttinger	http://search.maven.org/
05:34	TEttinger	https://clojars.org/
05:35	edbond	cYmen, it's infinite, there is no exit
05:35	TEttinger	cYmen: ##(doc map-indexed)
05:35	lazybot	⇒ "([f coll]); Returns a lazy sequence consisting of the result of applying f to 0 and the first item of coll, followed by applying f to 1 and the second item in coll, etc, until coll is exhausted. Thus function f should accept 2 arguments, index and item."
05:36	cYmen	edbond: ah, thanks
05:36	edbond	one can use reduce too
05:38	TEttinger	,(= (#(map-indexed (fn [idx item] [item idx]) %) [:a :b :c]) [[:a 0] [:b 1] [:c 2]]) ;; map-indexed is highly useful
05:38	clojurebot	true
05:39	jowag	edbond: do not exprt deftype, export some function which will create what you need, e.g. create new instance of your type
05:39	davidbe`	TEttinger: thanks for the info. Yes, I understood clojars also as a central repo. It is though strange to add another repo for an oracle driver, which is not uncommon.
05:39	TEttinger	that may not work on the others, I haven't tried! but you should try to do it with reduce for completeness, cYmen
05:39	TEttinger	yeah
05:40	edbond	jowag, I can export function but that deftype object doesn't have handleShow. I think it's renamed
05:40	TEttinger	davidbe`, it seems to be there. http://search.maven.org/#search%7Cga%7C1%7Ca%3A%22ojdbc14%22
05:41	jowag	edbond: in that case, try putting ^:export before handleShow, inside deftype
05:41	TEttinger	oh you need 6 I guess?
05:41	davidbe`	TEttinger: yes
05:41	TEttinger	is that a very old version?
05:42	edbond	jowag, I tried ^:export, generated .js doesn't have 'handleShow'. Seems export can't be applied there.
05:43	edbond	I thought externs can help but it ignores them too
05:43	davidbe`	TEttinger: bit too old. Problem is solved for now, I was only wondering why it wasn't that easy (lazy-me :-)
05:43	TEttinger	heh
05:44	TEttinger	well lein is wonderful, it easily handles quite a lot of hassle inherited from java land
05:44	TEttinger	"lein uberjar" is great
05:48	edbond	cYmen, here is reduce version
05:48	edbond	,(reduce (fn [[i coll] el] (vector (inc i) (conj coll [el (inc i)]))) [0 []] [:a :b :c])
05:48	clojurebot	[3 [[:a 1] [:b 2] [:c 3]]]
05:49	edbond	off-by-1 )
05:49	edbond	and map accepts many collections
05:49	edbond	,(mapv (fn [a b] [a b]) [:a :b :c] (range))
05:49	clojurebot	[[:a 0] [:b 1] [:c 2]]
05:49	edbond	map-indexed of course if the winner. know your core :)
05:51	cYmen	heh
05:53	TEttinger	what's kinda crazy is that mapv is relatively recent -- 1.4 I think?
05:53	TEttinger	http://clojure.github.io/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/mapv yep
05:57	clgv	edbond: in case you need a map anyway ##(zipmap [:a :b :c] (range))
05:57	lazybot	⇒ {:c 2, :b 1, :a 0}
06:08	cYmen	What is the difference between map and mapv? Does mapv pass the arguments as a set?
06:09	Ember-	@(doc mapv)
06:10	Ember-	##(doc mapv)
06:10	lazybot	⇒ "([f coll] [f c1 c2] [f c1 c2 c3] [f c1 c2 c3 & colls]); Returns a vector consisting of the result of applying f to the set of first items of each coll, followed by applying f to the set of second items in each coll, until any one of the colls is exhausted. Any remai... https://www.refheap.com/21235
06:10	Ember-	##(doc map)
06:10	lazybot	⇒ "([f coll] [f c1 c2] [f c1 c2 c3] [f c1 c2 c3 & colls]); Returns a lazy sequence consisting of the result of applying f to the set of first items of each coll, followed by applying f to the set of second items in each coll, until any one of the colls is exhausted. An... https://www.refheap.com/21236
06:10	Ember-	cYmen: see the "Returns a <here>"
06:11	Ember-	there is a dramatic difference, mapv returns an eagerly initialized vector, map returns a lazy sequence
06:25	cYmen	Totally missed that..
06:25	cYmen	thanks
07:07	johiddini	Hi - compojure/ring question. I have a compojure app, works great in development, but now I want to properly deploy it. How can I run my uberjar as a service that starts when my EC2 instance does, and automatically restarts if it crashes? I'm not an ops guy so maybe I'm missing the obvious.
07:26	dnolen	edbond: not supported but not hard to add - http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-698
07:27	edbond	dnolen, thanks, will take a look.
08:19	kilen	Any idea why this explodes? http://bit.ly/18j7bel (refheap), it seems trivial and the first version should be equivalent to the 2nd.
08:26	ambrosebs	kilen: why is it [coll] instead of coll in the loop binder?
08:28	kilen	ambrosebs: so that I don't have to wrap the initial collection in a vec in the color, it's serves as a stack
08:28	kilen	s/color/caller
08:29	kilen	I culled this from a larger function, so lacks context.
08:31	nonuby	why does this whole the exception instead of closing channel in a finally for example https://github.com/clojure/core.async/blob/76317035d386ce2a1d98c2c349da9b898b480c55/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/async.clj#L382
08:31	nonuby	whole --> swallow
08:34	kilen	ambrosebs: yeah, that's the problem, but I thought it was legal to put an expression on the rhs of a binding. strange.
08:35	mattmoss	nonuby: I suspect that, since (f) is in another thread, there is no easy way to handle that exception.
08:36	mattmoss	Sorry, ignore that, I misunderstood your question.
08:38	ambrosebs	kilen: sure it's legal. You just wrapped coll in a vector, I don't know where the NPE comes from though.
08:42	kilen	ambrosebs: oh f, i captured rest instead of calling it rst. boo.
08:43	ambrosebs	kilen: :)
08:52	dnolen	piranha: so does React actually work with advanced compilation? If so I'm curious why renaming is an issue?
08:55	wakeup	hi
08:55	mdrogalis	Morning.
08:55	wakeup	Anyone using cloverage here? I can't get the -n and -t options to work
08:56	wakeup	I am trying to run cloverage on a chosen testsuite only.
09:19	dabd	could someone please help me out using clojure.walk? https://gist.github.com/dabd/7641881
09:22	justin_smith	dabd: postwalk does not work on anything other than generic types
09:22	coventry	dabd: But I believe clojure.walk2 does.
09:22	justin_smith	because it needs to know how to create an empty thing and put transformed contents in it
09:22	coventry	https://github.com/stuartsierra/clojure.walk2
09:23	justin_smith	I think walk2 will be in the next clojure.core
09:23	justin_smith	our caribou version is the only version of walk2 you can get from maven, last I checked
09:23	justin_smith	oddly
09:23	coventry	justin_smith: Yes, troncle is still depending on it. :-)
09:23	justin_smith	oh yeah, we had that conversation
09:24	coventry	I guess you would have to extend walk2.Walkable to your record type for it to work properly.
09:24	coventry	Huh, there's already an extension for IRecord.
09:24	justin_smith	dabd: hopefully clojure.walk2 fixes your issue, otherwise, this was another thing to add to the "you probably don't want to use defrecord" list
09:24	rabidsnail	How do I unescape html character entities? Googling just points to a bunch of templating libraries.
09:25	justin_smith	coventry: cool, so that should fix his issue then
09:25	arcatan	i wonder if walk2 preserves metadata
09:25	coventry	arcatan: Pretty sure it doesn't.
09:25	coventry	arcatan: It's easy to add that to the transformation functions, though.
09:26	dabd	justin_smith: what should i use instead of defrecord to define nodes in a tree that can contain complex data?
09:26	coventry	http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2013-11-24.html#18:13
09:27	rabidsnail	I mean I guess I could use apache commons to do it, but that doesn't seem very clojurey.
09:27	justin_smith	coventry: yup, that's where we talk about the list I would be adding to
09:28	justin_smith	rabidsnail: I think the ring handler that handles URL params may do this?
09:28	wakeup	-.- why is simply running cloverage.coverage/-main in my project so hard?
09:28	rabidsnail	justin_smith: I'm not using ring (this isn't a web app)
09:29	justin_smith	but web libraries are good at handling data formatted for the web
09:29	rabidsnail	justin_smith: I'm pulling data from the twitter api
09:29	justin_smith	it is a web app: a web client app :)
09:29	dabd	coventry: i am not using defrecord to represent the tree.
09:30	dabd	just the nodes
09:31	coventry	dabd: Can you represent the node data using the standard clojure data structures?
09:31	justin_smith	rabidsnail: and speaking of being a web client, clj-http.client does format coercion
09:31	justin_smith	https://github.com/dakrone/clj-http
09:33	rabidsnail	justin_smith: to use that I would have to write my own twitter api client, though
09:33	justin_smith	it is probably using a class from apache to do the URL transform though
09:33	dabd	coventry: of course a simple map would work. It seems like defrecord, deftype and protocols get messy. So when should I use a simple map instead of defrecord
09:33	rabidsnail	(wrong layer of abstraction)
09:33	rabidsnail	yeah, I'll probably just use apache commons
09:34	coventry	dabd: http://cemerick.com/2011/07/05/flowchart-for-choosing-the-right-clojure-type-definition-form/
09:35	coventry	See the "No" "No" path.
09:36	dabd	coventry: thanks. seems useful
09:36	coventry	NP.
09:49	allenj12	is there an easy way to read in txt files word by word? so maybe something like "hello john" to ["hello", "john"]
09:52	dbusnenko	(.split (slurp "file.txt") " ")
09:52	justin_smith	(clojure.string/split (slurp "project.clj") #"[ \n\t] ")
09:52	justin_smith	I forget the generic "split by white space" regex
09:53	Mendor\|s1r	"\\s+"
09:53	justin_smith	thanks
09:54	allenj12	alright thanks!
09:54	justin_smith	Mendor\|s1r: that seemed to do the opposite, so I need to negate it
09:55	bja	capital S is everything except whitespace
09:55	bja	lowercase S is all whitespace characters
09:55	bja	so \\s+ vs \\S+
09:55	justin_smith	oh, it was "\s+"
09:55	justin_smith	not "\\s+"
09:55	justin_smith	that did it
09:55	bja	err, yeah. java requries the escaped \
09:56	bja	(not clojure)
09:56	justin_smith	(clojure.string/split (slurp "project.clj") #"\s+")
09:56	justin_smith	that works
10:03	piranha	dnolen: it actually does work, almost does :)
10:04	piranha	dnolen: the thing is that they have this list of tags they create on DOM, and if you use them as DOM.td, advanced mode will rename them to Q.x or something like that :)
10:04	piranha	I guess I should just add an extern which lists all those tags and be done with it, their names are not that long
10:04	casper_	(+ 1 1)
10:04	clojurebot	2
10:05	coventry	(inc 10)
10:05	lazybot	⇒ 0
10:06	coventry	Does clojurebot have "+" hardcoded?
10:07	dnolen	piranha: I'm confused why the renaming is a problem, isn't everything compiled together?
10:07	Mendor\|s1r	,(inc 10)
10:07	clojurebot	11
10:07	Mendor\|s1r	too many bots :)
10:07	dnolen	piranha: React and your CLJS code?
10:07	coventry	Mendor\|s1r: The remarkable thing about casper_'s message is that it wasn't preceded by any kind of unquote.
10:08	piranha	dnolen: ok, so it's a problem only in single case
10:08	Mendor\|s1r	coventry: oh, I'm blind :)
10:08	piranha	dnolen: the thing is that DOM.div, DOM.p and other functions in React are created in runtime from an array (['div', 'p']), so they don't get renamed
10:08	gfredericks	Why does the core.typed wiki describe a function as "an ordered intersection of arities"? wouldn't union make more sense?
10:09	piranha	dnolen: but they get renamed in a client code, which is a problem :)
10:09	dnolen	piranha: ah, so those are dynamic properties? Why don't they just make them static?
10:10	coventry	gfredericks: What's the formal correspondance between an arity and a set?
10:10	piranha	dnolen: 'code size' :D
10:10	dnolen	piranha: huh?
10:10	gfredericks	coventry: I don't know
10:10	dnolen	piranha: I can't see how it make a significant difference, and would be good for Closure dead code elimination
10:11	TimMc	&((juxt (fn ([] :nullary-a) ([& _] :varity-a)) (fn ([& _] :varity-b) ([] :nullary-b))))
10:11	lazybot	⇒ [:nullary-a :nullary-b]
10:12	TimMc	I don't see what order has to do withit either.
10:12	piranha	dnolen: yeah... well they discussed that my patch ( https://github.com/facebook/react/pull/420/files ) added half a kb of code...
10:12	gfredericks	TimMc: well in core.typed you might have several types for one arity
10:12	gfredericks	though again that sounds like a union to me
10:13	piranha	oh, it actually is other way around, it does rename
10:13	piranha	ah, damn, I really forgot this thing
10:13	piranha	:))
10:13	piranha	dnolen: the thing is that closure compiler does not rename them in my code! because I use [:div "something"]
10:14	piranha	I was thinking about switching pump to (div "something"), that would fix the problem
10:14	justin_smith	(inc 10)
10:14	lazybot	⇒ 1
10:14	justin_smith	lol
10:16	piranha	ah
10:16	piranha	dnolen: I've got it other way around again :)
10:16	piranha	the problem was that it renamed all the tags and you got <xf></xf> in your DOM :))))))))
10:16	piranha	dnolen: I'm sorry for the confusion, it took a while to switch my brain back :)
10:20	dnolen	piranha: right, I'm chimed in on your pull request - from what I've seen React looks like one of the best libs to integrate into a CLJS project
10:20	dnolen	would be sad to reinvent
10:20	dnolen	piranha: thanks for the explanations
10:21	piranha	yeah, react is great
10:22	piranha	dnolen: it actually seems quite similar to hoplon for me, but I think alandipert doesn't agree with me; it still could be used as a backend renderer just to skip writing all this reconciliation again
10:23	piranha	I would love React to be separated in libraries, but still, idea is really good - having 'render' as an idempotent function makes writing an app much simpler
10:37	gfredericks	I feel like it would be useful for robert.hooke to have an around function that's like add-hook but only gives you the original function with the args already applied
10:38	joegallo_	to save the characters of applying them yourself?
10:39	joegallo_	that is, so you could (f) rather than (apply f args)?
10:42	gfredericks	exactly
10:42	gfredericks	and make it clear that you don't care about the args or intend to change them
10:52	justin_smith	gfredericks: any relation to (defmacro thunkify [form] `(fn [] ~form))
10:52	gfredericks	justin_smith: I don't believe so; robert.hooke is about monkey-patching vars
10:54	justin_smith	well the hook could provide you the thunkified version of the call
10:54	justin_smith	is what I am saying
11:03	TimMc	Raynes: A coworker found this. I don't know what it is, but it really should be accessible by a lazybot $wat command: https://github.com/gf3/WAT/blob/master/wat.json
11:17	dabd	this is a very basic question about trees and s-expresions. I want to represent the tree shown first here https://gist.github.com/dabd/7643940 but the clojure zipper will produce a structure like shown at the end of the file. How can I represent the first tree using a zipper?
11:18	TimMc	What have you tried?
11:18	TimMc	Oh, misread, sorry.
11:21	kilen	This fails to work: (map Integer/parseInt ["4"]) ,is there sugar or must I wrap it in a fn?
11:22	TimMc	dabd: I think each vector needs to specify three nodes -- left branch, node value, and right branch.
11:22	justin_smith	kilen: there is (map #(Integer/parseInt %) ["4"]) - probably the best you'll get
11:22	dabd	my trees are not necessarily binary
11:23	justin_smith	kilen: the issue is that a static class is not a first class object, and the language would have to become much more complex to make it act like it is
11:23	coventry	,(macroexpand '(Integer/parseInt "4"))
11:23	justin_smith	*static class method
11:23	clojurebot	(. Integer parseInt "4")
11:24	dabd	for example this clojuredoc zipper example is working with a tree that is not binary http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.zip/zipper
11:27	kilen	justin_smith: how strange, where does that macro come from? is invocation a macro??
11:27	lazybot	kilen: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
11:27	kilen	nice
11:28	justin_smith	kilen: it is a shorthand for fn
11:28	justin_smith	,(macroexpand '#(str %))
11:28	clojurebot	(fn* [p1__57#] (str p1__57#))
11:29	kilen	justin_smith: but isn't fn a special form? I don't follow.
11:29	justin_smith	fn is not a special form, it is a macro
11:29	coventry	fn* is a special form.
11:29	justin_smith	#() is a macro that expands to fn* which is a special form, yes
11:30	kilen	justin_smith: Then (doc fn) is a filthy liar
11:30	justin_smith	weird - I may be wrong
11:31	coventry	Yep, it's lying.
11:31	justin_smith	it manually adds :special-form to its metadata
11:31	justin_smith	which is odd?
11:31	coventry	There are a couple of other forms on http://clojure.org/special_forms which also aren't special. loop and let, at least, IIRC
11:32	justin_smith	because they are wrappers around the special form, and they are there to do the arg destructuring, right?
11:32	coventry	But actually, the documentation is more useful the way it is without going into this distinction.
11:32	kilen	Seriously, this would never happen in scheme. ducks
11:32	justin_smith	no, it would not happen in scheme. and my boss would never deploy scheme in production :)
11:33	kilen	justin_smith: ok, so #() is shorthand for fn, and fn is a macro. how does macro expansion work for (foo bar)? I don't see the fn
11:34	justin_smith	foo is a var pointing at a first class function
11:34	justin_smith	the problem is you can't just have a var pointing to a first class static method on a class
11:34	coventry	I suggest reading the code for riddley.walk/macroexpand if you really want to get into this.
11:34	justin_smith	because a first class static method on a class is not a thing :)
11:34	justin_smith	we are adapting to the limits of the jvm here
11:35	kilen	coventry: thanks, will clone
11:36	justin_smith	if we wanted to be able to use static methods on classes as if they were first class things, the clojure interpreter would be more convoluted. I like that the design was kept simple.
11:36	coventry	It's basically clojure's macroexpand machinery, reimplemented in clojure.
11:36	TimMc	dabd: I've not used zippers; how do they store node values, or do they only have data at the leaves?
11:37	dabd	timmc: looks like the answer for what i'm trying to do is here http://grokbase.com/t/gg/clojure/12afy2cz9p/how-to-represent-trees-for-use-with-zippers
11:37	coventry	Hmm, actually, I don't know that it's going to show how Integer/parseInt is handled. I think it defers to clojure's macroexpand for that. You might need to look at HostExpr in Compiler.java.
11:37	dabd	vector-zip will treat all vectors as branches so to explicitly represent the nodes i need to do something like caspar is showing. I'm going to try it
11:40	kilen	justin_smith: let me see If I got this right, all symbols pointing to a function get expanded via the fn macro which has special sauce for static methods, is that right?
11:40	justin_smith	kilen: err, no
11:40	justin_smith	a function is an object
11:40	justin_smith	so a var can have it as a value
11:40	justin_smith	a static method is not an object
11:41	justin_smith	so you cannot put it in another container in the jvm
11:41	justin_smith	there is no such concept, it is not a first class thing
11:41	justin_smith	it belongs to the class
11:41	justin_smith	and the class is not neccessarily a callable thing
11:42	justin_smith	so the jvm has its own ontology of classes vs. fields / methods, and rather than jumping through hoops and having special cases to make everything act first class, clojure is just like "well, this is java, do it the java way"
11:42	justin_smith	any normal clojure thing will generate objects, which are first class, and you can use in the usual handy convenient ways
11:43	kilen	I accept that, I'm now trying to understand how the macro which converts the invocation into java interop form gets invoked
11:43	justin_smith	the macro creates an fn
11:43	justin_smith	an fn is a callable object
11:43	TimMc	dabd: Yeah, looks like vector-zip isn't what you want at all, then.
11:43	justin_smith	inside, it invokes a static method
11:44	justin_smith	it is a workaround for the fact that a static method is not something you can pass around as a first class thing
11:44	justin_smith	you wrap it in something that is
11:45	justin_smith	and you dream of a sane design where things that should be first class functions actually are
11:45	kilen	justin_smith: I'll try again to explain what's puzzling me. as macros go, I know that (someMacro quux) gets expands as the body of someMacro
11:46	justin_smith	right
11:46	justin_smith	this happens at the moment of compilation, when the code is loaded
11:46	kilen	I don't understand how (NotaMacroAtAll-JavaStaticMethod) gets expand by any macro at all. there's no macro there., it looks like any other invocation.
11:47	kilen	ahh
11:47	kilen	so the expansion (. foo bar) is the body of the fn that was created by expansion at compilation time?
11:47	justin_smith	it is inside the body of the fn
11:47	justin_smith	but yes
11:48	kilen	close enough
11:48	kilen	yay we made it! thanks :)
11:48	justin_smith	np
11:48	justin_smith	so how about (. )
11:49	justin_smith	I don't know how to examine that in the repl at all
11:49	justin_smith	must be a reader macro or special form?
11:49	coventry	It is a special form.
11:49	justin_smith	I just realized I can't ask for its class, but yeah, I can call doc on it
11:50	justin_smith	"they all expand into calls to the dot operator at macroxpansion time"
11:50	coventry	I don't actually know where (Integer/parseInt ...) gets turned into (. Integer parseInt ...), though. I don't think HostExpr is the place, either, and it's not the reader.
11:50	coventry	,(read-string "(Integer/parseInt \"4\")")
11:50	justin_smith	http://clojure.org/java_interop#dot this is where the doc for . led me
11:50	clojurebot	(Integer/parseInt "4")
11:51	bbloom	coventry: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/LispReader.java#L803
11:54	coventry	bbloom: Thanks. That's not where the expansion happens, though. It's (predictably enough, I guess) in macroexpand1. https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Compiler.java#L6517
11:54	bbloom	ah sorry, answered the wrong question :-)
11:54	TimMc	&(macroexpand '(.foo bar))
11:54	lazybot	⇒ (. bar foo)
11:54	TimMc	&`(.foo bar) ;; to demonstrate that it's not read-time
11:54	lazybot	⇒ (.foo clojure.core/bar)
11:55	dnolen	somewhat less half baked CLJS for for making mutable JS object comform to a epochal time model - now with more refined ideas about handling nested objects - https://gist.github.com/swannodette/7644500
11:55	justin_smith	TimMc: yeah, . seems to be the bottom of things for normal inside clojure stuff - you need to start messing with the compiler to get lower than that
11:55	dnolen	would be easy to write a macro to make an EpochHTMLElement or EpochCanvas
11:55	nDuff	blegh.
11:56	nDuff	...still been playing around with using core.logic for recognizing bytecode-level optimizations
11:56	bbloom	dnolen: the "next epoch" stuff reminds me that i need to find time to elaborate on https://github.com/brandonbloom/exstate/blob/master/src/exstate/core.clj
11:57	TimMc	&(macroexpand `(~(symbol "") 1 2 3))
11:57	lazybot	java.lang.StringIndexOutOfBoundsException: String index out of range: 0
11:57	nDuff	...but most of the available libraries providing single-assignment intermediate representations for java bytecode either (1) have outright horrifying implementations [think: mess of singletons and mutable state], (2) aren't reversible back to java bytecode, or (3) aren't implemented in Java.
11:58	TimMc	nDuff: Aren't reversible?
11:58	TimMc	As in, have no possible representation, or are just really hard to reverse?
11:58	nDuff	TimMc: well, don't have implementations presently available for reverse transformations.
11:59	nDuff	TimMc: not that it isn't possible, just it isn't done; and I'm trying to keep things narrowly-scoped.
11:59	TimMc	I was thinking about writing (or convincing someone else to write) a learning reverser.
11:59	nDuff	(Wala is the particular toolchain for which that's the case)
11:59	TimMc	You'd feed it a bunch of input-output pairs for a transformation and it would build a model for the reverse.
12:04	technomancy	nDuff: doooo eeeet
12:05	dnolen	bbloom: oh a lib to deal w/ external state?
12:05	jcromartie	when I'm working with records and protocols in the REPL via CIDER, and I use C-c C-k to load a file, then trying to call any protocol function on a previously-created record fails with "No implementation of method:"
12:05	bbloom	dnolen: yeah
12:06	bbloom	dnolen: i discussed the idea in here a few months ago when i first implemented that prototype
12:06	nDuff	technomancy: ...write a wala IR -> JVM bytecode compiler? Eh, maybe for 1.0; for 0.1, I'm probably going to hold my nose and use Soot; I'd rather prove the concept before sinking time into improving the tools used to implement.
12:06	bbloom	dnolen: the premise is to view the outside world is a filesystem w/ synchronous reads and asynchronous writes. where all external services are mounted at some route & the routing tables are cheap and immutable
12:08	jcromartie	it happens if I use (require ... :reload) too
12:08	technomancy	nDuff: I meant the for ocaml
12:08	jcromartie	I understand what's going on but I wonder how I can avoid it
12:08	nDuff	technomancy: ahh.
12:08	jcromartie	other than avoiding interactive development with protocols and records
12:08	technomancy	jcromartie: pretty much
12:08	jcromartie	bah
12:08	jcromartie	that sucks
12:08	jcromartie	well at least this part doesn't change much
12:09	bbloom	dnolen: kinda plan9 + datomic inspired
12:13	dnolen	https://gist.github.com/swannodette/7644500, add back -update!, if a value has children you can't -update! it
12:15	dnolen	bbloom: I think there's an interesting opportunity here with what I've got to do batching and doing a read will fuse?
12:15	dnolen	will ponder that
12:15	bbloom	dnolen: what do you mean by "fuse"?
12:16	dnolen	bbloom: actually apply the batched operations
12:17	bbloom	in your code? i don't see any batching...
12:17	bbloom	i still don't really understand it tho
12:18	dnolen	bbloom: nothing there yet - talking out loud :)
12:18	bbloom	i'm still not really convinced that this is a big issue
12:18	bbloom	java interop isn't any fun b/c you need to create tons of config objects w/ builder APIs and all that nonsense
12:19	bbloom	javascript interop sucks b/c you need to do the same thing
12:19	bbloom	only it double sucks b/c the "builder API" has nice data notation in JS
12:19	bbloom	:-P
12:19	bbloom	it feels close to have a clj map and a js obj and be like "why can't i just make this magically work?"
12:19	dnolen	bbloom: yeah I just agree at all w/ your take on the response
12:19	dnolen	(js-obj "foo" "bar")
12:20	dnolen	{foo: "bar"}
12:20	dnolen	not saving many characters here
12:20	dnolen	"just don't agree"
12:20	bbloom	heh, ok, was about to ask
12:20	bbloom	i don't think it's about saving characters
12:20	bbloom	it's about some warm fuzzy feeling
12:20	dnolen	bbloom: don't get me wrong I think #js literal idea is a fine one
12:21	dnolen	and that would make people a little bit happier but really
12:21	justin_smith	if it's just about comfort, just ripping the bandaid off is the best policy
12:21	dnolen	#js {"foo" "bar"} vs. (js-obj "foo" "bar")
12:21	dnolen	come on
12:21	bbloom	doThing(with, args, {like: "this", and: "that"}) is just much more pleasant than (js/doThing with args (js-obj "like" "this" "and" "that"))
12:21	dnolen	bbloom: marginal
12:21	bbloom	dnolen: yeah man, it's marginal to you and me
12:21	bbloom	dnolen: b/c we understand that it's surface beauty
12:21	bbloom	dnolen: but people care about that weird shit
12:21	bbloom	hence: ruby.
12:22	bbloom	why use a map when you can spend a bunch of time metaprogramming a fancy english-ish configuration API that essentially boils down to a map?
12:23	rasmusto	~map
12:23	bbloom	i don't have proof, but i'm pretty sure athsetics drives much of the clj->js desire
12:23	clojurebot	map is laziness
12:23	bbloom	that's not to say there isn't value in making the process smootehr
12:23	bbloom	there certainly is
12:24	bbloom	especially b/c json is so popular in js libs, where wacky class hierarchies and absurd DSLs are so popular in java and ruby respectively
12:24	bbloom	the popularity of json means that there is real opportunity for a solution that may actually be broadly applicable
12:26	bbloom	i think an even bigger win than a #js literal would be a dot-like form tuned for js calling conventions, much like coffeescript's splat & keyword args and whatnot
12:27	dnolen	bbloom: #js literal maybe, sugary stuff not gonna happen, people write their macros for that stuff.
12:28	bbloom	dnolen: yeah, but that's what i'm saying: i think the complaints are about sugar
12:29	nDuff	technomancy: Hmm. Do you have experience w/ any options for running OCaml on the JVM? Even if I'm using the IR implemented in OCaml, I'd rather not give up core.logic or have to serialize/deserialize everything crossing the boundary.
12:29	dnolen	bbloom: perhaps, but I'm skeptical that's the only reason
12:29	bbloom	nDuff: not to speak for technomancy, but i think the only reason he bothered with ocaml was to avoid the JVM :-P
12:30	technomancy	no, he's right
12:30	technomancy	I wasn't actually paying attention to what you were doing; just happened to pattern match on that one particular word. sorry =)
12:31	nDuff	heh, np.
12:35	danneu	What does this error usually mean? namespace 'eraser.core' not found after loading '/eraser/core'
12:35	TimMc	It might mean you have a typo in either the ns or the file path.
12:35	hiredman	it means you have the wrong name in your ns form, or don't have an ns form
12:35	TimMc	or an underscore/hyphen confusion.
12:36	danneu	My test autorunner enters this state after a few autoruns lately. Otherwise the suite runs entirely a few times.
12:36	danneu	good opportunity to try midje
12:40	coventry	There are some drawbacks to midje. http://blog.circleci.com/rewriting-your-test-suite-in-clojure-in-24-hours/
12:44	TimMc	coventry: What drawbacks?
12:44	gfredericks	TimMc: you might have to rewrite your tests in clojure.test
12:44	TimMc	I skimmed the blog post, but it didn't seem relevant to that.
12:45	danneu	i read a blog post a while back about some effort towards a core.test rewrite or big refactor.
12:45	TimMc	Oh, I see -- missed the directionality.
12:45	TimMc	But it doesn't mention why they didn't like midje.
12:45	bbloom	TimMc: it only uses the word "idiomatic"
12:46	bbloom	or rather "unidiomatic"
12:46	myguidingstar	hi all, what are the best practices to mock/test file io?
12:46	danneu	kibit called their test suite unidiomatic so they're working towards kibit compliance
12:47	danneu	kdd
12:47	justin_smith	lol
12:47	bbloom	myguidingstar: for the O part, you can use with-out-str
12:48	bbloom	myguidingstar: for the I part, you can use http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/io/StringReader.html
12:48	justin_smith	,(with-in-str ":hello" (read))
12:48	clojurebot	:hello
12:48	justin_smith	why not with-in-str?
12:48	justin_smith	oh because you are not usually reading from in of course
12:49	bbloom	justin_smith: i had no idea that existed
12:49	technomancy	guns: hey, I was going to tweet about the new slamhound release; do you have a twitter account I could include?
12:49	coventry	TimMc: Too much magic. While that post is explicitly about rewriting, the tone most of the way through it is "here's some more magic which makes midje tests and the results of running them hard to reason about."
12:49	guns	technomancy: oh wait!
12:49	guns	technomancy: It's not quite released...
12:49	guns	Trying to shove a last bugfix out the door
12:49	technomancy	oh, haha. sure
12:49	guns	I didn't push the 1.5.0 git tag for that reason
12:50	technomancy	no worries
12:50	justin_smith	coventry: yeah, I looked at midge and it failed my "does it exist to emulate ruby" sniff test
12:50	TimMc	ouch :-P
12:51	TimMc	My experience has simply been that composing can be a more difficult with Midje.
12:51	technomancy	it reminded me a bit of CL's LOOP macro
12:51	justin_smith	It is that whole magic thing. Accepting greatly increased complexity in return for minor conveniences.
12:52	danneu	i've been using jaycfields' http://jayfields.com/expectations/ for months. `(expect :a (first [:a :b :c]))`
12:52	TimMc	I'd like to see some of the prerequisites stuff pulled out into a separate utility, for instance.
12:52	technomancy	making up "english-like" syntax instead of using lisp calling conventions
12:52	technomancy	or "non-structured" rather than "english-like" I guess
12:54	llasram	Macros make it easy for internal DSLs to be arbitrarily different from the host language
12:54	llasram	I don't think the problem is that it's "English-like," but that it's no longer the host language
12:55	llasram	There are lots of good ideas in Midje, but I've definitely found the cognitive load of effectively writing your tests in a different language than your code to be more than I want to absorb
12:57	hiredman	is halfway between clojure.test and cucumber really a destination?
12:57	danneu	my last job was at a rails shop and it's easy to underestimate the load of having to write `assert User.new(name: "Chuck").valid?` as `subject.should be_valid`
12:57	hiredman	(given many don't actually like cucumber)
12:59	danneu	my favorite ruby test lib is https://github.com/sconover/wrong - `assert { <ruby code> }`. and it analyzes the code to show helpful fail messages
13:02	danneu	which is something i think every clojure lib already does
13:03	coventry	Bwahaha
13:04	coventry	Oh, you mean testing libs.
13:05	danneu	well, if there's a cooler way to interpret the things i write, i don't want to stop you.
13:17	eigenlicht	/join #c
13:17	eigenlicht	nobody saw that, ok
13:18	tbaldridge	clojurebot sees everything
13:20	mdrogalis	~omnipresent
13:20	clojurebot	Excuse me?
13:20	rasmusto	~omnipresence
13:20	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
13:22	justin_smith	~πανταχού
13:22	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
13:22	justin_smith	~πανταχού
13:22	clojurebot	Excuse me?
13:22	justin_smith	(that is the greek word for omnipresence, btw)
13:23	wakeup	gotta love emacs unicode support
13:24	rasmusto	oh i cant see it
13:24	justin_smith	I just pasted it in from google where I looked it up, heh
13:24	justin_smith	sadly, emacs does not do zalgo text properly
13:24	justin_smith	the sacrifices I make for this platform
13:24	wakeup	zalgo?
13:24	eigenlicht	or word processing
13:24	justin_smith	wakeup: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/zalgo
13:25	justin_smith	there is a unicode text trick for zalgo
13:25	justin_smith	a classic example: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1732348/regex-match-open-tags-except-xhtml-self-contained-tags
13:25	justin_smith	top answer is fucking hilarious
13:25	wakeup	rasmusto: emacs mixes bitmap fonts with ttf fonts for fallback
13:26	wakeup	H̘Ë͖́̉ ͠P̯͍̭O̚N̐Y̡ H̸̡̪̯ͨ͊̽̅̾̎Ȩ̬̩̾͛ͪ̈́̀́͘ ̶̧̨̱̹̭̯ͧ̾ͬC̷̙̲̝͖ͭ̏ͥͮ͟Oͮ͏̮̪̝͍M̲̖͊̒ͪͩͬ̚̚͜Ȇ̴̟̟͙̞ͩ͌͝S̨̥̫͎̭ͯ̿̔̀ͅ
13:26	wakeup	doesn't reallly work in emacs
13:26	justin_smith	nope
13:26	justin_smith	works in the browser
13:26	wakeup	bt the characters itself are displayed correctly
13:26	justin_smith	dunno if any text-editor proper would support it
13:26	justin_smith	yeah
13:26	wakeup	just positioning is off
13:26	justin_smith	it just doesn't do the layering
13:26	wakeup	hard to navigate if it would
13:26	rasmusto	wakeup: i should try to get putty-tray to do that w/ comic sans
13:27	justin_smith	yeah, that is likely the reason
13:27	wakeup	rasmusto: if comic sans has a big set of glyphs which I doupt
13:27	rasmusto	wakeup: (wingdings fallback)
13:27	wakeup	haha
13:31	wakeup	Me going wild with math glyphs in lisp code: http://imgur.com/BaWzdBq
13:32	justin_smith	wakeup: do you have a low resolution screen, or really good eyesight?
13:33	wakeup	justin_smith: 1280x1024
13:34	justin_smith	I forget that most of the world is not at super high screen resolutions sometimes
13:34	wakeup	good eyesigh on short distances
13:34	wakeup	;)
13:34	wakeup	Yeah the monitor I use is really old, but really really good
13:34	wakeup	pristine truecolors and all
13:35	rasmusto	wakeup: im rocking an lgl246wp-bn at home, it's pretty solid
13:35	rasmusto	but the backlight is dimming on the left side :<
13:35	justin_smith	nice. Where I work everyone has a mac cinema display as their secondary monitor
13:35	wakeup	The next monitor I buy has to have a feature that reduces or eliminates the fly-poop
13:35	wakeup	or whatever it is flies leave
13:35	wakeup	EIZO :)
13:35	seangrove	wakeup: Are those font-locks, or actual characters in the source?
13:36	wakeup	seangrove: actual characters in utf-8
13:36	justin_smith	emacs makes symbol entry pretty easy: C-x 8 <return> snowman <return>
13:36	wakeup	seangrove: http://repo.or.cz/w/flub.git/blob/HEAD:/bachelor-cs/set-theory.lisp
13:36	justin_smith	and of course you can put favorites on a simpler keybinding
13:37	wakeup	I have an xmodmap keybingings for math characters
13:37	seangrove	wakeup: More a fan of font-lock replacements in emacs, personally
13:37	justin_smith	seangrove: that is definitely kinder to collaborators and downstream users
13:37	seangrove	But maybe that's just me being crazy, definitely could be.
13:37	danneu	Is there a lein plugin that auto-runs appropriate core.test suite on file save?
13:37	guns	You can also use readline bindings to write utf-8 in a shell
13:38	guns	❤ utf-8
13:38	seangrove	justin_smith: That's my concern, but maybe it's crazy to expect collaborators who can do the whole clojure/lisp thing but can't handle utf chars
13:38	wakeup	☃
13:38	wakeup	snowman!
13:38	justin_smith	wakeup: every unicode is available by name that way
13:38	justin_smith	and if you enter a * glob and tab it shows cantidates
13:38	justin_smith	like check out cat
13:39	seangrove	wakeup: Wouldn't mind seeing some code with all the symbols :)
13:39	justin_smith	😹 <- "CAT FACE WITH TEARS OF JOY" is the name of that codepoint
13:39	wakeup	justin_smith, seangrove: It's not like this is production source, this was an experiment for myself, I think programs in ASCII aren't a bad thing!
13:40	seangrove	wakeup: Yeah, that's no problem at all of course. Definitely fun for doing things on your own!
13:40	coventry	Holy cow. http://cppgm.org/about.html "Students of this online course each single-handedly develop their own original C++ compiler, standard library, and toolchain"
13:41	seangrove	Wow, C++ grandmaster.
13:41	wakeup	lol
13:41	justin_smith	in fact, weird unicode in names is a nice substitute for the ___*name*___ convention to indicate things you probably don't want to fuck with
13:42	justin_smith	ie. the fact it is weird to enter in may increase the amount of time spent deciding whether one should really refer to it
13:43	seangrove	😼
13:43	TimMc	justin_smith: Such as brehaut's favorite, a suffix to mark side-effecting predicates: ‽
13:43	justin_smith	that would be a good name for an internal namespace for example
13:44	justin_smith	seangrove: that is the C-x 8 <return> I was referencing above
13:44	seangrove	justin_smith: Ah, got it
13:44	justin_smith	there is also M-x describe-char
13:45	justin_smith	if you want to know which thing that does not print properly is at point
13:45	justin_smith	for example
13:45	justin_smith	or if you see a sigil and want to know its name
13:45	TimMc	Totally works.
13:45	justin_smith	CAT FACE WITH WRY SMILE
13:46	justin_smith	come to think of it, I use C-x 8 <return> often enough, I should totally give it a C-c binding
13:47	TimMc	https://www.refheap.com/21243
13:49	justin_smith	(global-set-key (kbd "C-.") #'insert-char) (global-set-key (kbd "C-,") #'describe-char)
13:49	justin_smith	works a charm
13:50	llasram	I need to update my key-bindings... I'm still using `ucs-insert`, which apparently now is just an alias for `insert-char`
13:51	justin_smith	"ucs-insert is an alias for `insert-char' in `mule-cmds.el'."
13:51	justin_smith	thats what M-x describe-function tells me
13:51	llasram	justin_smith: I think that's basically what I just said...?
13:52	justin_smith	just verifying
13:52	gf3	TimMc: re: wat.json
13:52	llasram	kk :-)
13:52	gf3	TimMc: Those are all real-life WTF comments people have made, mostly on IRC
13:52	justin_smith	llasram: I misunderstood what you meant by "apperently"
13:53	llasram	😼
13:54	jcromartie	so I have a rather simple set of protocols here for data model change transactors and transactions
13:54	jcromartie	I know, just use Datomic right?
13:54	jcromartie	but just humor me
13:56	jcromartie	(defprotocol ATransactor (transact [x transaction] "Update state and persist transaction"))
13:56	jcromartie	really it just calls (defprotocol ATransaction (run [x state] "Apply this transaction to the data model state"))
13:56	jcromartie	but for a file-based transactor it would write the transaction to a log and return the new state
13:56	mikerod	clojure.reflect/type-reflect is called in an AOT-compiled src/main directory; it fails with ClassNotFoundException when the class is from a `defrecord` that is not AOT-compiled in a src/test directory; anyone have insight into what could be happening?
13:56	jcromartie	for a SQL transactor it would insert a row, etc.
13:57	hiredman	mikerod: have you loaded the defrecord definition?
13:57	justin_smith	mikerod: I would lein clean and restart to rule out the most trivial possible cause of the problem
13:57	jcromartie	so the question is
13:57	llasram	mikerod: IIRC, type-reflect grabs the thread context class loader, which doesn't know about e.g. defrecords added to the Clojure dynamic classloader stack
13:57	jcromartie	what about side effects
13:58	mikerod	hiredman: yes the definition is loaded
13:58	jcromartie	you could call a transaction on a transactor and cause it to be stored but somehow ignore the result
13:58	jcromartie	so I think the transactor needs to be stateful
13:58	llasram	mikerod: Here's a work-around I submitted to a similar problem in clara-rules: https://github.com/rbrush/clara-rules/pull/8/files
13:58	mikerod	hiredman: and I reproduce this in a REPL setting, probably because the reflect lib is grabbing the correct classloader stack
13:58	mikerod	llasram: this is along the lines of what I am thinking
13:58	llasram	mikerod: It doesn't entirely work, because it only grabs the base loader. To allow re-compilation, you need to make sure you're grabbing the current loader
13:59	hiredman	that seems unlikely
13:59	mikerod	llasram: that's funny you show this patch, because this is the same lines of code that I am fighting with in Clara
13:59	hiredman	it looks like the default java reflector tries to read class bytecode
13:59	llasram	mikerod: haha
13:59	mikerod	I was reading the reflector clojure stuff, and I can't see why a dynamically loaded defrecord would not be visible to it
14:00	llasram	mikerod: I haven't used been back to clara since that patch. Not sure if it got reverted etc
14:01	hiredman	mikerod: if you create your own java classloader using the value of the var clojure.lang.Compiler/LOADER it should work
14:01	mikerod	llasram: your changes are in the version I am looking at/working with. I was setting up some tests where I generate some dynamic defrecords, and clojure.reflect/type-reflect is giving me the ClassNotFoundException
14:01	hiredman	it takes the value of the context classloader at load time, which seems kind of gross
14:02	llasram	hiredman: Ah, yeah -- I think that's the problem
14:02	mikerod	oh
14:02	hiredman	have you considered just using reflection?
14:02	mikerod	I was thinking there was something going on here with grabbing the load-time classloader
14:02	mikerod	which, I guess is then unaware of any new classes being added later
14:02	llasram	There's a clojure.lang.RT method makeClassLoader, which I think is the Right Way To Do It (tm)
14:03	llasram	I think the fix is to use that method, and call it each time you invoke type-reflect
14:03	hiredman	I am not a huge fan of clojure.reflect, largely because it seems sort of half baked with things like this
14:04	mikerod	so you'd call type-reflect with a new :reflector each time?
14:04	mikerod	to keep it "fresh"
14:04	mikerod	hiredman: yeah, I am a bit skeptical on clojure.reflect, especially after this one
14:04	llasram	mikerod: I believe so. I'm not entirely certain even that will work
14:04	llasram	I think hiredman's suggestion of just directly reflecting on the class might be way to go
14:04	mikerod	indeed
14:05	TimMc	gf3: Do you use that file for anything>
14:06	gf3	TimMc: Oh yeah, we've got an IRC bot that spits those out randomly when people say "wat"
14:06	gf3	wat
14:06	b-ot	gf3: Blog wat: http://grenzgenial.com/post/2414488498/javascript-and-the-brain-why-javascript-is-the-future
14:06	ToxicFrog	Oh boy
14:08	gfredericks	where does core.typed store the annotations for vars in clojure.core?
14:09	seangrove	Luckily this blog-wat post isn't loading. Probably good.
14:10	seangrove	Ah, guess it's here now http://grenzgenial.tumblr.com/post/2414488498/javascript-and-the-brain-why-javascript-is-the-future
14:10	TimMc	Aha.
14:10	TimMc	wat
14:10	b-ot	TimMc: I am having a jsp that contains a jquery tab and inside tab i am having a custom search component on clicking the component a grid will open and it will act as an overlay and i used this plugin to close the grid if the user clicks outside the gridis working perfectly in all other element click other than jquery tab selection component
14:10	TimMc	Nice.
14:11	justin_smith	wat
14:11	b-ot	justin_smith: can i use document.write to call a json
14:11	seangrove	"a) No types: types are stupid. "
14:12	seangrove	Seems like a fairly straigthforward answer
14:12	hiredman	gfredericks: there is a #typed-clojure channel where you may have better luck asking such things
14:12	gfredericks	hiredman: I am going to go there
14:12	seangrove	json is a string, and strings do not implement IFn, so no.
14:12	gfredericks	hiredman: thx
14:12	justin_smith	seangrove are you talking to b-ot?
14:13	seangrove	justin_smith: Just speaking to the wider point ;)
14:13	hiredman	gfredericks: sure, I am in there too, and interested in seeing the answer
14:13	justin_smith	wat
14:13	b-ot	justin_smith: javascript:(unescape); lead you to function unescape() { [native code] } Native Code, eh? I wonder if '%69%6C%6F%76%65%6D%6F%6F' has anything to do with a Native Code...
14:14	hiredman	gfredericks: depending what you mean by "stored" there is a source file called something like base_env.clj which I think is where the types are declared, but I am not sure where in memory stuff is stored
14:14	gfredericks	hiredman: oh I think that's all I meant
14:15	hiredman	well
14:15	hiredman	https://github.com/clojure/core.typed/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/typed/base_env.clj#L1073
14:16	seangrove	justin_smith: The collection of quotes is incredibly difficult to parse...
14:16	seangrove	Seems to highlight some problems with human communication and thought processes...
14:28	sdvhbhszo8yhwtu	YOU MAY BE WATCHED
14:28	sdvhbhszo8yhwtu	WARNING WARNING WARNING, WARNING
14:28	sdvhbhszo8yhwtu	WARNING WARNING WARNING, WARNING WARNING
14:28	sdvhbhszo8yhwtu	YOU MAYWATCHED
14:28	sdvhbhszo8yhwtu	YOU MAY BE WATCHED
14:28	sdvhbhszo8yhwtu	YOU MAY BE WATCHED
14:28	trptcolin	such caps lock. noble consonants in username. wow.
14:28	TimMc	Oh, we got this one over on foonetic as well.
14:28	seangrove	True, true.
14:32	sdvhbhszo8yhwtu	YOU MAY BE WATCHED
14:32	sdvhbhszo8yhwtu	WARNING WARNING WARNING, WARNING
14:32	sdvhbhszo8yhwtu	WARNING WARNING WARNING, WARNING WARNING
14:32	sdvhbhszo8yhwtu	YOU MAYWATCHED
14:32	sdvhbhszo8yhwtu	YOU MAY BE WATCHED
14:32	kilon_	o_O
14:33	kilon_	:D
14:33	seancorfield	heh... thank you!
14:33	kilon_	i love your style
14:33	technomancy	pew pew pew
14:33	pisketti	preemptive strike
14:39	TimMc	When someone takes op, I imagine them glowing slightly.
14:43	technomancy	when someone who joins takes op because they forgot to turn it off before parting I imagine trumpeter fanfare
14:45	shaunxcode	is it crazy talk to use the channel returned by a go block as a way of early return e.g (def ch (go ... (if x (>! ch early-result) normal-path))
14:46	joegallo_	technomancy's ops are over 9000!!!! http://tinyurl.com/p6cwmdz
14:46	hiredman	shaunxcode: you can't, you don't have access to the returned channel inside the go block
14:47	hiredman	shaunxcode: it may actually work in a def like, due to def, but it won't work with locals
14:47	shaunxcode	hiredman: in that example I do though (I have this working I was just wondering if it would appear odd)
14:47	edoloughlin	I find that using logging statements breaks a clean functional style (e.g., using 'do' everywhere). Is there an idiomatic way of doing this that I just don't know about?
14:48	dnolen	shaunxcode: I also don't see how that example demonstrates early return
14:48	hiredman	shaunxcode: try it with a let
14:48	technomancy	edoloughlin: for quick debugging I often use (doto x prn)
14:48	technomancy	(if it's not going to get checked in)
14:49	edoloughlin	I'm looking for something more permanent. I.e., logging calls to a REST API. I want to be able to generate long-term logs.
14:50	edoloughlin	...without making my code look ugly.
14:51	justin_smith	edoloughlin: there are things like spy in many logging libs that return what the original form returned, while logging the form and its result
14:51	edoloughlin	justing_smith: thanks. That might be a good starting point.
14:52	TimMc	edoloughlin: I have written "check" (a doto + when-not) that I use to log which part of an if expression's conditional is failing.
14:52	hiredman	shaunxcode: the way def ends up working, you can refer to the thing being def'ed in the value of the def, as long as the def actually happens before you try and get the value
14:52	edoloughlin	I'm looking to do application-level logging. E.g., "user X created resource Y"
14:53	hiredman	which basically means if you def a function and the value of the var (that def creates) is not refenced until you try and run the function
14:53	hiredman	so your (def … (go …)) is actually a race condition
14:54	hiredman	has def interned the channel returned by the go block as the value of the var by the time the running go block on the threadpool or whatever has gotten to the dereference of the var
14:54	edoloughlin	Anyone know if http://www.clojure-toolbox.com/ is still a good catchall for libs, or is there something more current?
14:56	shaunxcode	hiredman: good call - trying it in let block made it clear.
14:57	hiredman	shaunxcode: I dunno what your background is, but people coming from scheme often try to use def as a synonym for let, like define in scheme, but clojure's def is definitely not like scheme's define
14:58	hiredman	clojure's def only operates on the global environment, nothing lexical about it at all
14:58	gfredericks	I've been wanting a robert-hooke based lib for logging around vars
15:17	bitemyapp	gfredericks: uhm, I did that with blackwater.
15:17	bitemyapp	gfredericks: but for SQL and pretty colors.
15:17	bitemyapp	gfredericks: you could whip up what you want in a jiffy yo.
15:25	Apage43	juffowup
15:27	bitemyapp	Apage43: ?
15:28	Apage43	who knows
15:28	llasram	Time to start hacking Apage43's accounts I think
15:30	Apage43	it's never that time. That time ruins my day
15:30	bitemyapp	gfredericks: please don't mention things I like without elaborating :(
15:32	gfredericks	bitemyapp: I get stalled thinking about it because I don't know how much it should be coupled with a structured logging lib
15:33	seangrove	gfredericks: channel all the things, decoupling.
15:33	gfredericks	huh?
15:34	seangrove	gfredericks: Just thinking about a robert-hook logging-oriented library with core.async channel-based apis
15:34	seangrove	Should be pretty simple with a structure like that to pipe it into other libraries.
15:34	gfredericks	seangrove: the question in my mind is whether the var-hooking lib can log data or should assume it can only log strings
15:35	seangrove	Ah, that's what you meant by 'structured'
15:35	seangrove	Well-made point.
15:36	justin_smith	optional arg for a formatter, that can choose to print readably or whatever else? default just being calling str on the args?
15:36	gfredericks	I wouldn't want to use it if I had to do that every time I wanted to log something
15:37	gfredericks	I've gotten so used to structured logging that I can't fathom going back, but I don't know of a decent public lib for it
15:41	seangrove	bitemyapp: Drinks or dinner tonight somewhere on Market? Thinking orbit-room or armory club if you're inclined.
15:43	hiredman	pedestal has a little logging api
15:44	rkneufeld	hiredman: my ears are ringing. Whose using pedestal's logging library where!?
15:44	hiredman	no one, I am just throwing it out there as opensource clojure code with structured logging
15:45	hiredman	https://github.com/pedestal/pedestal/blob/master/app/src/io/pedestal/app/util/log.clj
15:45	rkneufeld	Cool. FWIW: It's pretty spartan, and definitely needs a bit of work
15:45	stuartsierra	In retrospect, I think my addition of a new logging API in Pedestal was probably a mistake.
15:45	hiredman	sure, but with what little I have done with it, it seems vastly superior to, for example, what we currently use at work (which is not structured at all)
15:46	seangrove	rkneufeld: What do you think of pedestal for a chat app for an introductory run-through? Worth it, or overblown?
15:46	stuartsierra	But I'd like to have a standard API for structured log messages, unlike clojure.tools.logging which is mostly string-based.
15:46	rkneufeld	Timbre looks kind of neat: https://github.com/ptaoussanis/timbre. And we have a recipe on it in the cookbook: https://github.com/clojure-cookbook/clojure-cookbook/blob/master/deployment-and-distribution/logging-with-timbre/logging-with-timbre.asciidoc
15:46	hiredman	stuartsierra: a start would be spinning pedestal's out in to a library
15:47	gfredericks	stuartsierra: I've been able to use c.t.l with structured
15:47	seangrove	I've noticed some of the ui patterns I've independently been working towards seem to be pretty well baked into pedestal, so it's piqued my interests recently.
15:47	gfredericks	with log4j all it takes is a custom Layout class
15:47	stuartsierra	hiredman: Yes, it's on the (infinitely long) queue.
15:47	kilen	What's the idiom for caaddr-like helpers? firstfirstrestrest doesn't quite capture it.
15:47	seangrove	kilen: hahahahaha
15:48	seangrove	Love that idea :)
15:48	gfredericks	kilen: I think we mostly use destructuring instead
15:48	seangrove	ffrrest
15:48	llasram	kilen: destructuring
15:48	rkneufeld	seangrove: Hmm, I think it would depend on the level of your audience. Admittedly, the introductory material can be a little rough aside from going through the bulk of the app-tutorial (pretty big).
15:49	seangrove	rkneufeld: Yeah, made it about half-way through, but haven't completed it. On reflection, I think porting kandanapp over to pedestal could be a worthwhile learning experience
15:50	kilen	gfredericks, llasram: is there sugar I'm on aware of? that only works in a binding context, no? what would (count (caaddr foo)) translate to?
15:50	llasram	kilen: You do a destructuring bind wherever you get `foo` from in the first place, or you do the destructuring bind on `foo` before calling `count`
15:52	kilen	llasram: say it's a retval of some function, can I do it outside a let or function argument decleration? if not, it's far less convenient
15:52	llasram	kilen: Why don't you refheap/gist up an example?
15:55	ath0	cd do
15:58	justin_smith	kilen: yes, you can destructure in a let, loop, doseq, for...
15:59	justin_smith	,(let [[a b c] (range)] b)
15:59	clojurebot	1
16:01	justin_smith	there is also get-in
16:02	llasram	I would waaaay rather see destructuring in code than a call like `(get-in [0 1 1 1 0] foo)`
16:02	justin_smith	,(get-in [:a :b :c [:d :e [:f :g :h]]] [3 2 1])
16:02	clojurebot	:g
16:02	b-ot	justin_smith: Sorry, I can't find anything on [:d+:e+[:f+:g+:h]]]+[3+2+1])
16:02	justin_smith	wat
16:02	b-ot	justin_smith: How can I replace a php include navigation with jQuery?
16:03	kilen	justin_smith: nice, that's much better then (first (first (rest))
16:03	llasram	Huh -- is b-ot also listing on ^, ?
16:03	justin_smith	only works on vectors though
16:04	justin_smith	but agreed with llasram that a destrucuring is usually better
16:05	justin_smith	get-in becomes nice when you are doing partial walks, so constructing or manipulating the sequence of keys to step into
16:06	kilen	justin_smith: still, you have to add a let in there to destructure, it doesn't fit well with a series of steps you might translate into a -> form
16:07	justin_smith	unless you write a helper that does the destructuring
16:07	justin_smith	well, no, you don't need a let, an fn would suffice
16:08	hiredman	,(doc as->)
16:08	clojurebot	"([expr name & forms]); Binds name to expr, evaluates the first form in the lexical context of that binding, then binds name to that result, repeating for each successive form, returning the result of the last form."
16:10	teslanick	,(source as->)
16:10	clojurebot	Source not found\n
16:10	justin_smith	yeah, the source is easier than the doc string for me :)
16:11	teslanick	I usually like to see how the non-special-forms bits are implemented. It helps me understand the docstring.
16:11	kilen	hiredman: iiuc that combins let with ->, it doesn't help destructure an intermediate result
16:12	justin_smith	(defmacro as-> [expr name & forms] `(let [~name ~expr ~@(interleave (repeat name) forms)] ~name))
16:12	justin_smith
16:12	kilen	so just (def caddr (comp first rest rest)) basically if that's what you need. fair enough,
16:12	hiredman	,(-> {:a 1} (as-> {:keys [a]} (+ a)))
16:12	clojurebot	{:keys [nil]}
16:12	justin_smith	yeah it constructs all the lhs in the let, so it does not help destructure
16:12	hiredman	clojurebot: jerk
16:12	clojurebot	you cut me deep, man.
16:12	llasram	kilen: Also `nth`
16:13	kilen	llasram: only for vectors, no?
16:13	hiredman	kilen: I think whatever is missing here, is you don't have deep nesting of lists in clojure like you do in other lisps
16:13	llasram	(inc hiredman)
16:13	lazybot	⇒ 28
16:13	hiredman	kilen: in clojure you don't use alists, you use maps
16:13	llasram	,(nth '(0 1 2 3) 2)
16:13	clojurebot	2
16:13	kilen	hiredman: that actually makes a lot of sense
16:14	kilen	llasram: yeah, you can't erase silly things you say on irc unfortunately
16:14	llasram	kilen: Not with that attitude you can't!
16:15	kilen	llasram: ok
16:16	llasram	Become a supervillian and erase all our minds / kill us all
16:16	llasram	It just takes a positive attitude
16:17	llasram	kilen: I am still curious about any specific example you have, unless maps vs alists has turned it into a non-issue
16:20	kilen	llasram: how about (first (rest (helper foo)) as the retval expression of a function? the style advice on maps is helpful though.
16:20	llasram	kilen: `second` is (comp first rest), so the stdlib has you covered that far
16:22	llasram	kilen: I think it does come down to style, which may be a two-way street w/ what Clojure provides. If I'm using a vector as a positional "record," I'll usually turn it into a map at 3 fields.
16:23	llasram	In part I'm sure because that makes it easier to access portions of the structure
16:24	kilen	llasram: yeah, I tend to end up with lots of first first in code, I'm going to try switching to maps. thanks.
16:37	dotemacs	Hi, I can see that clj-pdf can be used to generate a new PDF file, but what about editing an existing PDF file, do you know of a good package for that ? Thanks
16:39	bitemyapp	dotemacs: editing PDFs other tools generated is often messy and source-specific
16:40	bitemyapp	dotemacs: there isn't a good high-level way to do so, you're going to be hacking it up yourself.
16:40	bitemyapp	its just the way PDF works.
16:41	justin_smith	if clj-postscript existed we could run clojure in pdfs
16:41	justin_smith	I guess new fangled pdfs have javascript too
16:41	bitemyapp	justin_smith: horrific.
16:42	justin_smith	yeah, I know
16:42	seangrove	Wish there was a nicer syntax for fields
16:42	justin_smith	the fact that they are emphatically not passive documents but a full but unreadable programming language is actually what I don't like about pdfs
16:43	kilen	dotemacs: you might be able to use qpdf to convert that into a text processing task. it's a pdf -> text -> pdf structure editor, I've used it before, not with clojure though.
16:43	bbloom	justin_smith: wasn't that like 2005? old news :_P
16:43	llasram	Actually, the PDF subset of PS drops Turning-completeness. The original idea was that it was essentially an entirely pre-rendered PostScript
16:43	seangrove	(map (juxt #(.-name %) #(.-value %)) (prim-seq (.-attributes el))) Isn't very nice.
16:43	bbloom	justin_smith: still horrific, however
16:43	dotemacs	bitemyapp: im involved in a project that is already doing that, where PDF forms have to be filled in which works fine using pdftk (CLI tool), the only part that is missing is crossing out certain form fields with thick black lines. So if there was something which could just add thick black lines...
16:43	justin_smith	bbloom: it was after I learned how to use pdf, so it is new fangled :)
16:44	dotemacs	kilen: thanks, but the PDF document needs to stay PDF, it's just the insertion of thick lines in certain forms that I need to add
16:44	justin_smith	dotemacs: that's at most 20 characters of postscript code
16:44	justin_smith	though pdf is terrible and I am sad you have to use it
16:44	dotemacs	justin_smith: ok, i'll look into that, never tried postscript coding before :)
16:45	justin_smith	I don't know if coding it directly is wise, most use a tool that inserts a shape or object into pdf by generating postscript
16:45	kilen	dotemacs: like I said, it's a "structure editor" the text representation is just an IR, you should see if it fits your needs. it's not a pdf->text converter.
16:45	bitemyapp	dotemacs: you're going to hack it up yourself.
16:46	dotemacs	kilen: thanks, looking into qpdf now
16:46	justin_smith	the issue is that pdf is not a declarative page, it is a turing complete language that outputs a page, which makes generalized editing tools a big task
16:47	justin_smith	though putting an arbitrary shape on top of what is there is comparatively doable
16:47	kilen	dotemacs: it's a analysis-synthesis type deal
16:47	llasram	PDF w/o JS is not Turing-complete
16:48	justin_smith	llasram: ? postscript is a programming language, and it is turing complete
16:48	justin_smith	pdf is a container for postscript
16:48	justin_smith	it is related to forth
16:48	llasram	justin_smith: Yes to the former, no to the latter
16:48	justin_smith	it has variables and loops yo
16:48	justin_smith	it is turing complete
16:48	llasram	PDF objects may contain a subset of PS w/o control structures
16:49	justin_smith	oh, pdf does not allow the entirety of postscript?
16:49	llasram	No
16:50	bbloom	it's a venn diagram
16:50	llasram	There's a lot of cruft (JS) in later version of PDF, but IMHO the base spec is pretty sane
16:53	bitemyapp	dotemacs: supposedly cemerick has a PDF extraction library, I am hunting down the name.
16:54	justin_smith	the amount of papers on turing completeness that are in pdf format (and marked as such in surrounding text) makes the turing completeness (or not) of pdf a hard thing to google
16:54	llasram	haha
16:54	coventry	bitemyapp: PDF Text Stream http://snowtide.com/
16:55	dotemacs	bitemyapp: doesn't that just extract text from a PDF file? This link that coventry posted, cemerick's lib
16:55	bitemyapp	coventry: oh is that what pays for cemerick's 100% time?
16:56	llasram	justin_smith: I only worked with PDFs at a low-level for a little while, so I may be mistaken, but my memory/experience is that it essentially contains the result of running a source PS "program"
16:56	bbloom	i dunno if it actually covers his 100% time or not, but i just assume that anything PDF related makes absurd amounts of money for no apparent reason
16:56	bbloom	i call that "PDF money"
16:56	brehaut	llasram: that + a whole lot of crazy since
16:57	brehaut	bitemyapp: http://www.pdftextstream.com
16:57	cemerick	dotemacs: Yes, PDFTextStream is strictly provides extraction functionality. Sounds like you need "editing", which is a whole different ball o' wax.
16:57	llasram	There's a joke in there somewhere about printing money (since many printers use PDFs as their transfer format)
16:57	llasram	printers == printing companies
16:58	justin_smith	and have hard coded stuff to detect money even? or is that an urban legend
16:58	llasram	Oh, no idea on that one
16:58	bitemyapp	justin_smith: scanners and photoshop detect money yes.
16:58	kilen	dotemacs: if what you're trying to do is graphical, you could try cairo+poppler to load, draw and render back to pdf.
16:58	llasram	I hadn't heard that urban legend :-)
16:58	bitemyapp	printers do not, they don't need to.
16:58	lumafi	yeah, it's true
16:58	lumafi	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EURion_constellation
16:58	justin_smith	bitemyapp: oh, ok, it is on the input end
16:58	cemerick	llasram: PDF uses a non-turing-complete subset of PS
16:59	bitemyapp	justin_smith: you can't use a conventional printer to make counterfeit bills so it doesn't even matter, plus they'd get marked.
16:59	dotemacs	cemerick: thanks
16:59	dotemacs	kilen: thanks, i'll look into it
16:59	llasram	cemerick: Glad to have my memories confirmed :-)
17:00	justin_smith	bitemyapp: yeah, that unique yellow pattern each printer does, which is why you need a color cartridge to have some ink even to print black and white
17:00	bitemyapp	That is probably partly why.
17:01	bitemyapp	PDF is a good example of why you should eschew turing completeness/excess power whenever possible
17:03	justin_smith	because it does it well, or because it does it poorly?
17:05	bitemyapp	justin_smith: you want to use as little power as possible to solve a given problem.
17:05	bitemyapp	justin_smith: if a regular syntax would suffice, use that. If a context free grammar would suffice, use that.
17:05	bitemyapp	justin_smith: PDF's turing completeness is a horrendous problem.
17:05	brehaut	bitemyapp: thank the IRS apparently :P
17:05	bitemyapp	contrast processing PDF with HTML.
17:05	justin_smith	why the IRS?
17:06	brehaut	they apparently funded a lot of development of PDF with specific features that they wanted
17:06	brehaut	a lot of it was apparently to do with adding 'rich document' shenanigans (big frinstance ecmascript)
17:07	bitemyapp	the solution is to create rules of the standard for implementers, not embed a VM. :P
17:07	bitemyapp	if word docx can suffice with XML, there's no reason PDFs needed to be turing complete.
17:07	brehaut	bitemyapp: ah, the CSS solution ;)
17:07	justin_smith	so it was like powell motors and "the homer" automobile
17:07	cemerick	bitemyapp: it's not turing-complete. The Javascript you can embed in it, on the other hand...
17:07	coventry	brehaut: Any keywords which would be useful in searching for that story? ("IRS pdf" turns up a lot of false positives. :-)
17:07	bitemyapp	brehaut: that's roughly how most PDF generators work anyway, like HTML and CSS, and CSSes problems are specific to its implementation not its nature.
17:08	brehaut	coventry: no idea sorry; i got the info from chatting with an internet friend who worked at adobe at the time on PDF stuff
17:09	bitemyapp	cemerick: I'm pretty sure the PostScript derivative in PDFs is turing complete.
17:09	brehaut	coventry: feel free to take it as 2nd hand apocryphal
17:09	technomancy	coventry: hey, can you remind me of what issues you ran into trying to build troncle based on nrepl-discover that lead you to embed your own stuff?
17:09	bitemyapp	cemerick: it would be very hard for you to prove otherwise.
17:09	technomancy	was it just the region-as-text?
17:10	bbloom	http://www.adobe.com/devnet/pdf/pdf_reference.html have fun guys
17:11	bbloom	oh, right you need to BUY the reference from ISO
17:11	bbloom	insert look of disapproval here
17:12	bitemyapp	http://www.citationsoftware.com/faqPS_vs_PDF.htm
17:12	bitemyapp	it says PDF doesn't have looping or conditional constructs, making it not turing complete.
17:12	bitemyapp	After having seen the SKI combinator implemented in CSS, I would take that as a challenge.
17:13	bbloom	lol ok you have to link me to that ski/css thing
17:13	bitemyapp	sorry, Rule 110
17:14	bitemyapp	bbloom: have you seen the Rule 110 implementatio?
17:14	bitemyapp	implementation*
17:14	turbofail	i don't think there is any substitution mechanism in PDF either
17:14	cemerick	bitemyapp: do you really want to blow your time thinking about the guts of PDF, etc?
17:14	bitemyapp	I saw SKI pop up somewhere weird not too long ago, but I don't think it was CSS
17:14	cemerick	Let me answer that for you: no, no you don't.
17:15	bbloom	in any case, turing completeness is pretty much completely irrelevant to the rule of least power
17:15	bitemyapp	http://beza1e1.tuxen.de/articles/accidentally_turing_complete.html
17:15	bitemyapp	bbloom: it's not irrelevant at all.
17:15	bbloom	people create accidentally turing complete interpreters pretty much by default
17:16	bitemyapp	Django templates aren't turing complete because they terminate.
17:16	bitemyapp	at least at the compile-time level.
17:16	bitemyapp	runtime is more complicated because runtime is whatever your language is.
17:17	bitemyapp	the looping and conditional constructs don't mean much because it's data, not codata.
17:17	bitemyapp	unless you injected a non-terminating generator, in which case you're an asshole.
17:18	bbloom	in order to choose something with the "least" power, you have to both assume power is a singular dimension and then define it
17:18	technomancy	cemerick: do you think nrepl needs to be more descriptive around content negotiation?
17:18	bbloom	turing completeness is not a useful notion for practically any practical application of the least power principal, since practically anything you ever do is still going to deal with very large data as opposed to infinite codata
17:19	bbloom	so you're gonna need timeouts and other error handling anyway
17:19	bbloom	the fact that you CAN write an infinite loop is pretty much moot if i can just generate arbitrarily large inputs
17:20	bitemyapp	that's not the point of eschewing turing completeness whenever possinle
17:20	bitemyapp	possible*
17:20	bitemyapp	the point isn't even halting in-and-of-itself although it can be useful, it's the programmatic processing of the data/code.
17:21	bitemyapp	There's more to code-writing-code than human generated macros.
17:21	brehaut	bbloom: what is codata
17:21	bitemyapp	brehaut: http://blog.sigfpe.com/2007/07/data-and-codata.html
17:22	coventry	technomancy: Region-as-text, full-source-as-text (or at least line/column position of region, that's what I'm using it for at the moment), plus most crucially the ability for elisp to call into the discovered functions. Having nrepl-discovered clj output useful stack traces is also incredibly valuable for development. In a sense that was what triggered the rewrite: it was more for my own understanding, I just kept pulling stuff out
17:22	coventry	until I had that working, then I kept going until it just does what I need. So I'm not rejecting nrepl-discover wholesale, but I'm anticipating that for troncle I'm going to need more than it offers.
17:22	bbloom	bitemyapp: i agree that's about programatic processing of the data/code -- which is precisely why turing completeness is not a relevant design characteristic when evaluating usefulness for processing
17:23	bbloom	being able to build a turing machine in my DSL makes me say "heh, neat" not "omg! my DSL is too powerful!"
17:24	bitemyapp	turing completeness affects your ability to deterministically process the input.
17:24	bbloom	only if you're assuming i need to execute the input to do anything useful with it
17:24	bitemyapp	I am positive that fact hasn't escaped you, so I'm going to assume you're being contrarian for the sake of it, to the detriment of anybody trying to learn something here.
17:26	bbloom	i don't subscribe to the rule of least power. instead of trying to minimize power, i try to maximize leverage, which, often, coincides with lesser power
17:26	benedikt	does require have something similar to :once with use ?
17:29	coventry	benedikt: Do you mean :only?
17:29	benedikt	d'oh. yes.
17:30	bbloom	bitemyapp: consider compilers. turing completeness is a given for a general purpose language, but some languages are more or less amenable to static analysis. the same is true of any data representation that may or may not happen to be turing complete
17:31	bbloom	bitemyapp: the question is: what type of analysis do you need to perform? how can you design a language or data representation that helps you accomplish those goals?
17:31	coventry	benedikt: See :refer in the (require) docstring, and the (refer) docstring.
17:32	benedikt	ah, thanks
17:35	benedikt	etiquette: is it considered rude to ask for help with an open and new stack overflow question?
17:37	kilen	benedikt: try it, the worst that can happen is that technomancy will charge his lazers. again.
17:41	bitemyapp	benedikt: having a well detailed Stack Overflow question pasted with a brief explanation/title in channel is an improvement over the sort of questions we usually get.
17:41	bitemyapp	"does anyone use Clojure to process things?"
17:41	bitemyapp	"does anyone use Clojure to do Clojure-y or web things?"
17:41	bitemyapp	"I'm not going to ask my question until I get a population census of who uses this tool to accomplish the exact same thing my question is about"
17:42	technomancy	benedikt: I promise to only be slightly offended that you didn't pick #clojure as your first place to turn
17:42	owengalenjones	does anyone have an opinion on whether it's bad form to have a default multi-method implementation that is 8 lines long rather than say defining a function and just calling it in the default implementation?
17:42	kilen	I'm about to dive into core.logic, I've used blackbox SAT solvers before, how's core.logic different?
17:42	hiredman	what is a sat box solver?
17:43	bitemyapp	hiredman: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boolean_satisfiability_problem
17:43	hiredman	are you familiar with minikanren?
17:43	kilen	No, that's what I'm asking.
17:45	hiredman	minikanren is,uh, I guess breadth first search over a tree of possible solutions, with eaching disjunction(conde in core.logic, "or" in normal speak) being a branch
17:45	benedikt	technomancy: :)
17:45	hiredman	not branch, a branching
17:45	kilen	You can use a modeling language to generate a formulation for a SAT problem, feed it to a solver and get an answer. that seems kinda like what core.logic does, so is there a difference?
17:45	benedikt	technomancy: to be fair, i was here asking some days ago about it, with less details
17:45	bitemyapp	benedikt: what's the question anyway?
17:46	benedikt	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/20203047/classnotfoundexception-and-classcastexception-with-lein-droid # The question
17:46	bitemyapp	oh, android question. yep, I'm out.
17:46	bitemyapp	benedikt: gg gl hf
17:47	benedikt	bitemyapp: i'm new to this wizardry as well
17:47	technomancy	benedikt: hardly anyone using clojure on android these days afaict
17:47	dnolen	kilen: SAT solvers are very specific type of powerful tool, core.logic is more an like an general embedded programming paradigm, with easy escape hatches back into functional programming.
17:47	benedikt	technomancy: i just felt like it
17:47	technomancy	beneditk: don't imagine you'd get much help outside a mailing list
17:48	dnolen	kilen: there is a strong connection between constraint logic programming and SAT solving methods - but this only recently well understood as far as I can tell - and we haven't treaded there yet.
17:48	hiredman	yeah, I found http://www.soi.city.ac.uk/~jacob/solver/flops.pdf, and looking over it, it seems to suggest SAT solvers are restricted to boolean expressions?
17:48	kilen	dnolen: so are the solvable problems in one a subset of the other? are they for different things?
17:48	dnolen	kilen: many problems solvable in either, SAT methods better in some cases, constraint solving better in others
17:49	trptcolin	benedikt: those last errors look similar to a lein issue: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/1376
17:49	dnolen	kilen: but the killer thing about core.logic (which still needs work) is the level of integration with Clojure data structures
17:49	dnolen	kilen: not really possible with off the shelf constraint solvers or SAT solvers
17:49	trptcolin	as for the initial ones, you don't have access to all the usual JVM stuff on android (see http://developer.android.com/reference/packages.html - javax.json.* is not there)
17:49	benedikt	trptcolin: thanks
17:49	dnolen	kilen: or even JVM based Prologs
17:51	benedikt	trptcolin: is it simply the case that clojure on android isn't a great idea?
17:52	technomancy	benedikt: I don't know if it's a great idea, but you definitely need to be prepared to shave a big pile of yaks
17:52	benedikt	technomancy: so not a great idea for a project to learn clojure?
17:52	kilen	dnolen: Thanks.
17:53	trptcolin	yup. http://www.deepbluelambda.org/2011/02/ was the last i'd heard about work towards it
17:53	technomancy	benedikt: not so much
17:53	trptcolin	[the yup was to what technomancy said]
17:53	bitemyapp	benedikt: not at all.
17:53	technomancy	benedikt: I think to make progress on those lines you'd need to already be a clojure expert and and android expert
17:53	alandipert	otoh, a good project to master clojure :-)
17:54	benedikt	technomancy: i have no intentions of being an android master
17:54	benedikt	alandipert: :)
17:55	benedikt	i'll switch to using ring and the other web things
17:57	bitemyapp	benedikt: http://www.luminusweb.net
17:57	coventry	Ooh, that clojars latest-release trick in the lein-droid readme is nice.
17:58	benedikt	bitemyapp: nice. is this what replaced noir?
17:58	bitemyapp	coventry: you really don't look at any of my libraries do you? https://github.com/bitemyapp/revise/
17:58	bitemyapp	benedikt: 'ish, the approach is different. It's pedagogical.
17:59	dnolen	in other news core.logic CLJS runs zebrao in ~8ms on my MBA 1.7ghz under V8, I suspect when the protocol indirection elimination via type inference lands we can probably shave off another 1-2ms.
17:59	benedikt	bitemyapp: sounds like a similar idea to bottle in the python world
17:59	coventry	bitemyapp: I looked at it before this. :-) https://github.com/bitemyapp/revise/commit/846e4737b737863fcbe0e99a21b8cf35daf30b6b
17:59	bitemyapp	Apage43: trolling Ptacek about his Golang use on Twitter.
17:59	bitemyapp	coventry: how did you fail to notice the svg? :P
17:59	bitemyapp	ohhhhh
18:00	bitemyapp	coventry: it has error handling now.
18:00	dnolen	near order of magnitude perf improvement in a year and a half ain't bad :)
18:00	coventry	bitemyapp: It will definitely be on my radar when I need a database. :-)
18:00	Apage43	bitemyapp: oh boy
18:01	bitemyapp	coventry: if you need a different database, ping me.
18:02	[Neurotic]	Hey all - trying to work this out - Does clojure.edn/read look at data_readers.clj for tags? I can't seem to make it work (using the :readers opt is fine, but trying out both ways)
18:03	hiredman	[Neurotic]: data_reader.clj is read once when the clojure runtime is loaded
18:03	[Neurotic]	hiredman: I'm not currently running this in a REPL, so that doesn't seem to be the issue
18:03	[Neurotic]	Although... is that an implicit "yes edn/read does look at data_readers.clj" ?
18:04	hiredman	[Neurotic]: is it?
18:04	hiredman	[Neurotic]: it doesn't look like it
18:05	hiredman	ah, it does
18:05	hiredman	it just grabs it in the java :(
18:06	[Neurotic]	Okay, so if it does, don't suppose someone would have an example of defining an EDN tag in it? I can't seem to make it work
18:07	hiredman	https://github.com/hiredman/bytes
18:07	[Neurotic]	I looked at that... but that's not an EDN tag, is it?
18:07	bitemyapp	Apage43: he is now intrigued by Haskell.
18:07	bitemyapp	mission success.
18:07	Apage43	I watched it play out in real time
18:07	bitemyapp	Eggscellent.
18:07	bitemyapp	Apage43: so you, too, are intrigued by Haskell.
18:07	bitemyapp	The fire rises!
18:07	joshhead	I was just reading up on some Clojure history, following links from this post: http://clojure.com/blog/2012/02/17/clojure-governance.html
18:08	joshhead	I see references to the first Clojure talk at LispNYC, but the links are broken. Allegedly there was an audio recording, does anybody know where to find it?
18:08	Apage43	you're keeping going huh
18:09	[Neurotic]	oh, I think it's me.. I think I worked out my issue
18:10	hiredman	[Neurotic]: actually the edn reader grabs the value of default-data-readers not data-readers, and data_readers.clj only sets data-readers
18:10	[Neurotic]	hiredman: aaah
18:11	[Neurotic]	hiredman: thanks for looking into that - that explains why it wasn't doing anything
18:11	bitemyapp	Apage43: hahaha, he actually RT'd that one.
18:11	bitemyapp	I'm proud of that tweet.
18:14	[Neurotic]	hiredman: that makes sense against the docs for edn/read :readers - "When not supplied, only the default-data-readers will be used"
18:14	[Neurotic]	hiredman: thanks for your help
18:16	hiredman	I forget that new things have docstrings to read
18:18	[Neurotic]	Just so I'm clear then - data_readers.clj is really about changing the clojure reader - most likely for custom things like the base64 link above
18:20	emaphis	I just intalled clojure-mode and cider in emacs from marmalade. When I cider-jack-in, I get this error: "java.lang.IllegalAccessError: pp does not exist". Anybody have any idea what I screwed up? I can't find anything on google.
18:20	hiredman	it is sort of complicated, but yes, I think part of the genesis of the edn reader as a distinct thing was to provide a more explicit interface to reading things, since magic can happen with the clojure reader which could be bad if you are receiving random data from the internet
18:20	hiredman	emaphis: do you have something in a user.clj or similar?
18:21	hiredman	emaphis: my guess would be some code somwhere expects someone to already have done a (require '[clojure.pprint :as pp])
18:21	emaphis	hiredman: im a noob. where do I find user.clj?
18:21	hiredman	emaphis: well, then it is unlikely that you have one
18:21	amalloy	hiredman: no, that error message comes from (:require [foo :refer [pp]]), i'm pretty sure
18:21	amalloy	not from trying to write foo/pp
18:22	[Neurotic]	hiredman: yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Don't want executing code in EDN ;) Cool. Thanks!
18:22	hiredman	Oh
18:22	hiredman	,(pp 1)
18:22	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: pp in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
18:22	amalloy	,(require '[clojure.set :refer [pp]))
18:22	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: )>
18:22	amalloy	,(require '[clojure.set :refer [pp]])
18:22	clojurebot	#<IllegalAccessError java.lang.IllegalAccessError: pp does not exist>
18:22	hiredman	,(refer 'clojure.core 'pp)
18:22	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No value supplied for key: pp>
18:22	hiredman	yep
18:23	amalloy	so i'd guess a version mismatch in some library, like maybe clojure.edn exports a pp?
18:23	emaphis	so clojurebot has the same problem. :-)
18:23	hiredman	emaphis: some something is looking for a `pp` in a namespace where it doesn't exist
18:24	emaphis	Ok. I hunt for it. thanks. I'm not too worried, I have a working repl.
18:37	emaphis	hiredman: when I connect to an already running "lein repl" I don't get the "PP" error. (just for reference).
18:44	akurilin	Has anybody here integrated results of lex/bison into a clojure app before?
18:44	dnolen	should make playing around with and looking at CLJS AST considerably more fun - http://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/commit/badffafde00a29f85e256906bd1ffb0c54a0786c
18:46	hiredman	Heh
18:46	hiredman	yep
18:50	bitemyapp	akurilin: InstaParse doesn't suit your needs?
18:50	bitemyapp	akurilin: https://github.com/Engelberg/instaparse
18:52	akurilin	bitemyapp, I'm not completely familiar with the tooling out there. I was thinking of lex/bison since I used them before and since I'm not really experienced in this domain, it'd make finding questions to my answers much easier
18:52	akurilin	bitemyapp, if it's something really fancy, I'll have no idea what to do with myself.
18:52	bitemyapp	akurilin: Instaparse is really simple to use.
18:52	bitemyapp	akurilin: stop being afraid of leverage. Check out Instaparse.
18:53	bitemyapp	akurilin: you're using Clojure for the leverage, if you eschew all the benefits thereof you're missing the point.
18:53	bitemyapp	akurilin: whole swaths of users started programming Haskell just so they could use Parsec, which is related to Instaparse.
18:54	akurilin	bitemyapp, do people find the historical tools so painful they'd rather go through that?
18:56	akurilin	bitemyapp, anyhow, appreciate the referral, will check it out
18:57	bitemyapp	akurilin: you've never used lex or bison before I see.
18:57	bitemyapp	akurilin: I've seen people lose their sanity with those tools.
18:58	akurilin	bitemyapp, I thought lex was ok, but it was for a toy language
18:58	akurilin	bitemyapp, I guess I just don't know any better ;)
19:00	bitemyapp	akurilin: Instaparse is goddamn magical.
19:10	bitemyapp	arohner: I like the CircleCI ads, one just showed up on comonad.com
19:10	arohner	bitemyapp: cool! thanks
19:11	bitemyapp	arohner: did you see my update to Brambling?
19:11	bitemyapp	I don't recall if we discussed it or not.
19:11	technomancy	yeah some of those illustrations are classic
19:11	arohner	incremental migrations?
19:11	bitemyapp	arohner: yeah, 30 million datoms ~2.2 minutes on a crappy instance.
19:11	arohner	that's incremental, but not live, right?
19:11	bitemyapp	arohner: divide by 4-10x, then multiply by roughly the datoms your data model would turn into.
19:12	arohner	because you're still switching DBs?
19:12	bitemyapp	arohner: well, by live you probably mean differential migrations.
19:12	bitemyapp	there's never-ever going to be a live migration faculty with Datomic that Datomic doesn't itself implement
19:12	arohner	by 'live' I mean 'no downtime'
19:12	bitemyapp	and they're only going to implement very simple use-cases, not whole database transformations like what brambling does.
19:12	bitemyapp	differential migrations can do "catch-up" migrations to minimize swap time.
19:13	bitemyapp	but the hand-over you'd be managing yourself.
19:13	bitemyapp	if you're using core.async or a queue internally in your applications you can pause the queries long enough to flip over though.
19:14	bitemyapp	arohner: if you're serious about using Datomic in production then it might be worth your time to spitball some of this with myself or the Datomic guys.
19:14	bitemyapp	if not, then let me know and I'll stop bugging you.
19:14	bitemyapp	I just knew you were one of the people that expressed an interest.
19:14	arohner	I am interested, but we don't have our eval key yet
19:14	arohner	and it'll probably be someone else on the team handling the migration to datomic
19:15	bitemyapp	arohner: are they on IRC? can they be?
19:15	bitemyapp	I'd be happy to discuss it with them and offer advice/help/pointers if they'd like.
19:17	bitemyapp	it's irritating the degree to which I end up imitating destructuring in Python. :as and all.
19:18	arohner	bitemyapp: they're not on IRC yet. I'll tell them to bug you when they're ready :-)
19:18	arohner	and when I know who's going to do it...
19:19	bitemyapp	arohner: sure sure. Cheers.
19:24	Apage43	anagram thing is more interesting sorted by length of word than by size of set
19:24	Apage43	(->> "/usr/share/dict/words" slurp clojure.string/split-lines (group-by frequencies) vals (filter #(> (count %) 2)) (sort-by (comp count first)) (take-last 100) pprint)
19:25	Apage43	["importancy" "patronymic" "pyromantic"]
19:25	bitemyapp	important father-derived fire-crazies
19:25	devn	anyone here using caribou?
19:26	bitemyapp	devn: justin_smith is the resident expert dev/user.
19:26	Apage43	["petrography" "pterography" "typographer"]
19:26	bitemyapp	devn: yogthos and I have admired their work from afar :)
19:26	devn	there is a reference to schmetterling which seems to imply that you need to clone the external repo
19:26	devn	is that correct?
19:26	justin_smith	devn: schemetterling is a standalone app
19:26	devn	just checking :)
19:27	devn	i got it working by cloning it and connecting to it
19:27	bitemyapp	justin_smith: ...does that work modulo locals clearing?
19:27	justin_smith	it isn't part of caribou - you can connect it to anything running under the jdk
19:27	devn	just thought maybe it was batteries included
19:27	bitemyapp	also how did I not hear about this earlier?!
19:27	bitemyapp	WHAT THE FUCK
19:28	bitemyapp	this is really nice if it actually works
19:28	justin_smith	bitemyapp: yeah, as far as I know. The one problem really is that it gives you a repl in the context of the stack, and if you get an exception there the whole thing is toast
19:28	justin_smith	so run code in the contact of the exception stack judiciously
19:28	justin_smith	hopefully we will find a way to handle it gracefully in the app
19:29	bitemyapp	justin_smith: why isn't this an nrepl plugin?
19:29	justin_smith	we wanted something our non-expert devs could just connect to their process
19:29	justin_smith	with as little friction as possible
19:30	bitemyapp	but...nrepl is the standard protocol... ;_;
19:30	justin_smith	but maybe we could do that with an nrepl plugin
19:30	bitemyapp	please?
19:30	justin_smith	we are using standard jvm debugging sockets
19:30	bitemyapp	then emacs/vim/etc could use it.
19:31	technomancy	linky?
19:31	justin_smith	https://github.com/prismofeverything/schmetterling
19:31	devn	justin_smith: an overview of things/libs caribou works with would be nice
19:31	justin_smith	devn: yeah it would
19:31	devn	i mean even just in terms of "officially supported"
19:31	devn	like schmetterling
19:31	clojurebot	Excuse me?
19:32	devn	because the project.clj contains things like caribou.foo
19:32	devn	which doesn't expose them directly
19:32	devn	dependencies and 3rd party lib integration i guess is what im saying
19:32	devn	justin_smith: either way, nice job on caribou so far
19:32	justin_smith	bitemyapp: we were also aiming for total non-integration with editors, because there is a lot of diversity of editors used in our environment, easier to have something universal (the browser) than adapt to vim, emacs, sublime...
19:32	justin_smith	devn: thanks, I am just a bit player
19:32	devn	justin_smith: i especially liked that the default page was RESPONSIVE
19:33	bitemyapp	nrepl...is universal...
19:33	technomancy	I don't know how you'd initiate a connection with nrepl
19:33	bitemyapp	technomancy: idea being to tunnel the JDK stuff to nrepl
19:33	devn	M-x nrepl, 127.0.0.1, 44444
19:33	technomancy	but yeah, nrepl solves the whole diversity problem neatly
19:33	technomancy	devn: where does the port number come from?
19:34	devn	in the startup sequence, and also in the config IIRC
19:34	devn	ive barely used caribou at this point
19:34	justin_smith	I think it may just be our lack of knowledge / experience with the internals of nrepl that kept it from being used.
19:34	devn	i init'd an app, ran it, and connected nrepl to it through that port
19:34	justin_smith	in default caribou the port is set in boot.clj, but can be overridden in resources/config/<environment>.clj
19:35	technomancy	you'd want it to be accessible from your existing nrepl session
19:35	hiredman	well, the jvm exposes the debugging info over sockets, so you would need another layer translating it in to something like nrepl
19:35	hiredman	which, well, meh
19:35	bitemyapp	does nobody care that the whole point of nrepl was to make it so every editor/environment could leverage the same tools?
19:35	hiredman	you might make something like an repl proxy, that proxies and nrepl and tunnels the debugging stuff over nrepl
19:35	justin_smith	schmetterling just uses a fork of the cdt lib to interact with the debug socket
19:35	hiredman	yeah
19:36	technomancy	bitemyapp: it seems like an obvious thing once you figure out the session issues
19:37	hiredman	justin_smith: it does look really neat
19:37	justin_smith	the other issue is a repl is a push ui - you type something in and it gets sent. Schmetterling was envisioned to both push and pull - it pops up your stack trace from the other process, then you can send commands from the context of a stack level
19:37	justin_smith	perhaps we could make that work with an nrepl though
19:37	justin_smith	hiredman: thanks, mostly prismofeverything's work, I just helped whiteboard it
19:37	technomancy	justin_smith: nrepl handlers can send unsolicited messages
19:38	justin_smith	so maybe we can embed this in a repl
19:38	technomancy	yeah, this needs to happen =)
19:38	justin_smith	we looked into using ritz and just got lost - either we were too dumb or it was too complex
19:38	bitemyapp	this is the debugger I've been waiting for, for awhile.
19:38	justin_smith	or some combo
19:38	technomancy	or alternatively someone needs to make ritz work for mortals
19:38	bitemyapp	justin_smith: I didn't like Ritz either, that's why I would really like this to be adapted for nrepl.
19:38	technomancy	not requiring two JVMs is great though
19:38	bitemyapp	I got Ritz to work, it's just not very helpful.
19:38	justin_smith	pull requests would gladly be considered :)
19:39	bitemyapp	it's not a PR to schemetterling
19:39	bitemyapp	it's a separate project entirely
19:39	bitemyapp	that schmetterling could turn into a wrapper for.
19:39	technomancy	yeah, extraction is needed
19:39	justin_smith	well in the core is that fork of cdt, that could be the common basis, but you would likely want to extend it
19:40	justin_smith	https://github.com/prismofeverything/cdt
19:40	akhudek	Given a map m, are the results of keys and vals guaranteed to be in the same order (such that each key corresponds to each val)?
19:40	bitemyapp	akhudek: maps aren't ordered unless they're a sorted map.
19:41	justin_smith	akhudek: the key/val relations are fixed
19:41	bitemyapp	that question is baffling.
19:41	justin_smith	do you mean does (zipmap (keys m) (vals m)) always = m ?
19:41	akhudek	justin_smith: exactly
19:41	technomancy	bitemyapp: no it's not
19:41	technomancy	it's a common question that gets asked here all the time
19:42	bitemyapp	technomancy: I didn't parse out keys and vals are functions.
19:42	technomancy	ah, ok; sure
19:44	justin_smith	,(into #{} (repeatedly 10000 #(let [m (zipmap (repeatedly 30 rand) (range))] (= m (zipmap (keys m) (vals m))))))
19:44	clojurebot	#{true}
19:44	justin_smith	empirically, it worked the first 10000 tries
19:44	technomancy	it's explicitly stated somewhere on clojure.org iirc, but it needs to be in the docstrings
19:44	akhudek	justin_smith: it does seem true, but I never like to make assumptions unless they are really guaranteed.
19:45	justin_smith	akhudek: that's smart
19:45	bitemyapp	akhudek: you must've used C in a past life.
19:45	akhudek	technomancy: I also wish the cost complexity various operations were easier to find in docs
19:45	justin_smith	bitemyapp: with that attitude you could hardly write a single C program that does anything interesting
19:45	akhudek	bitemyapp: is it that obvious?
19:46	bitemyapp	akhudek: I know the fear too. I used to hack in C.
19:46	bitemyapp	justin_smith: I somehow made my way, but C taught me some real paranoid about what "truth" is, and what "is" means.
19:47	technomancy	"An experienced programmer is one who looks both ways before crossing a one way street"
19:47	Apage43	I'm hacking on some C++ right now. There is no meaning in this place.
19:47	bitemyapp	technomancy: I actually do that in Chinatown all the time.
19:47	technomancy	throw UnexpectedVehicleException
19:48	Apage43	Unexpected vehicle throws you!
19:48	bitemyapp	Today on TwitteR: People with syphilis get mad at me for making fun of their favorite language.
19:48	justin_smith	and in the hospital they attempt to set the breakpoints after the crash
19:48	justin_smith	it is much like debugging
19:49	justin_smith	that was a terrible pun
19:49	justin_smith	(dec justin_smith)
19:49	lazybot	You can't adjust your own karma.
19:50	technomancy	hehe
19:50	bitemyapp	(dec justin_smith)
19:50	lazybot	⇒ 12
19:53	akhudek	technomancy: I can't actually find any mention of the order of keys and vals on clojure.org. :-( Pretty sure I read it somewhere too though. If I can find a source I'll add a comment about it on clojuredocs.
19:53	technomancy	akhudek: maybe it was on the dev.clojure.org wiki instead
19:54	technomancy	or it could have been a mailing list. anyway, I'm 100% sure it's guaranteed.
19:54	akhudek	technomancy: ok, I'll just add a comment on it then
19:56	Apage43	(keys) returns a KeySeq, which is a wrapper around seq'ing the map that returns just the key portion of each item
19:56	Apage43	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/APersistentMap.java#L133-L162
19:57	Apage43	they're both in the order you get when you (seq) it
19:57	bitemyapp	so there's no order to the seq itself, but they're paired up evenly?
19:57	akhudek	Apage43: thanks
19:57	akhudek	bitemyapp: that's right
19:57	bitemyapp	it appears that requires relying on an implementation detail, but it's good to know.
19:57	justin_smith	if you want to guarantee they match, there is always doing a reduce on the map and destructuring yourself
19:58	justin_smith	that way you only need to create the seq once too
19:58	Apage43	bitemyapp: as long as you aren't crazy and don't make a map type where (seq)'ing the same value twice gives you a different order
19:58	justin_smith	(or would keys and vals both use the same seq?)
19:58	bitemyapp	Apage43 leading the way on reading the code. Best way to learn. :)
19:58	Apage43	as go intentionally does
19:58	bitemyapp	Apage43: that's perverse :\|
19:58	Apage43	yeah, go randomizes order of iteration over maps
19:59	devn	justin_smith: i stepped away, but in any event: caribou is definitely a nice contribution, and something of a middle ground between pedestal and "roll your own".
19:59	devn	thanks for your work
19:59	devn	i'll be giving it a more in-depth try over the next week or so.
19:59	justin_smith	devn: np, I will pass that along, thanks
20:00	justin_smith	pedastal looks cool, I mean to try it. But we need something where the frontend is not clojure, because we don't hire frontend for clojure skill, we hire them because they can make a designer's psd happen as a responsive page
20:01	devn	depends on what you mean by designer
20:01	devn	but if by designer you mean front end developer with design skills, then i agree
20:01	justin_smith	people who use photoshop to make a pretty picture of a web page
20:01	devn	oh, im sorry, i misread
20:01	devn	yeah i think we agree
20:02	devn	that was always a goal of Clojurescript One, too
20:02	devn	to make it easy for designers and people who were primarily front end devs to collaborate
20:03	justin_smith	well what I meant is that the frontend devs know js / css / html - we don't want to make them use a clojure oriented stack, and pedastal seemed to be pushing that way (maybe I am wrong?)
20:04	justin_smith	though some of them have been trying clojurescript and enjoying it for the occasional project
20:05	devn	i have more coworkers who are currently using clojurescript than clojure
20:05	devn	i know the state of clojure survey begs to differ
20:05	justin_smith	interesting
20:05	devn	but i think they're just not as connected to the community at the moment
20:05	justin_smith	I know if I had to do frontend, I would totally do it in clojurescript if I could
20:05	devn	so maybe they aren't being heard as loudly
20:06	devn	on all of the JS projects i've worked on recently we had lots of things in play to basically simulate clojurescript
20:06	devn	like using google closure to get require and provide, etc.
20:06	justin_smith	more than just underscore style fp features?
20:06	devn	strong desire to use a functional style, desire for namespaces, desire for namespaces
20:07	devn	and desire for namespaces ;)
20:08	devn	underscore is a gateway drug to FP, and then they find clojurescript and say: "oh! this is even better!"
20:09	joshhead	I do frontend JS work, we don't use any clojurescript but boy I'd like to
20:09	devn	people with nice functional style using underscore were given recognition for writing nice code, so other people noticed and decided to try to do it as well
20:09	devn	when they come to clojurescript they see group-by, map, reduce, etc. and they immediately get it
20:10	joshhead	I've got Fogus's Functional JavaScript, am hoping that it makes way for more functional style so that clojurescript seems like less of a leap
20:10	joshhead	I actually showed some ClojureScript to a few coworkers, they said it looked more useful than CoffeeScript
20:11	devn	i've been surprised. people who have always had some aptitude for lisps, have written their own, etc. were more taken by what clojurescript provided than clojure as a core language
20:11	dnolen	joshhead: heh
20:11	devn	mainly because they see how practical it is, and it makes them feel like they're not in a completely foreign land/language
20:12	devn	because they know javascript
20:12	devn	so they don't feel completely novice in clojurescript
20:12	devn	clojurescript is a good gateway drug
20:13	devn	i think dnolen's posts have been inspiring a lot of people to check it out since it's so damn easy nowadays, too
20:14	devn	gotta run, but keep on truckin' :)
21:01	bitemyapp	arrdem: I bought an Xbone: http://i.imgur.com/k4NWp0u.png
21:09	arrdem	bitemyapp: your timing in pinging me as I M-x erc remains spooky
21:11	bitemyapp	arrdem: that's better than being puffnfresh. I barely let the poor bastard sleep.
21:35	ambrosebs	gfredericks: it's an ordered intersection function type because a function is all of its arity types.
21:35	ambrosebs	gfredericks: a (Fn [Number -> Number] [Boolean -> Boolean]) can be safely coersed to [Boolean -> Boolean]
21:35	ambrosebs	gfredericks: but a (U [Number -> Number] [Boolean -> Boolean]) cannot.
21:44	fakedrake	hello
21:44	ambrosebs	TimMc, gfredericks: they are "ordered" intersections because (Fn [Long -> Long] [Number -> Number]) is different to (Fn [Number -> Number] [Long -> Long]). If you pass a Long, the former returns a Long and the latter a Number.
21:45	ambrosebs	the intersection (I Number Boolean) is unordered currently FWIW.
21:48	fakedrake	i want to write a macro that will make a special case of defn, namely more than 3 or 4 of my functions will be able to be take their arguments and also no credentials for anon login, a login object or username + password eg (defn foo "maybe doc" ([a cr] code) ([a] (foo a (anon-login) ([a u p] foo a u p))))
21:48	fakedrake	that should be (login-defn foo "maybe doc" [a cr] code)
21:49	fakedrake	The problem is to me the docstring which may or may not be there
21:49	ambrosebs	fakedrake: have you considered keyword arguments?
21:50	fakedrake	ambrosebs: hmm, good idea
21:51	ambrosebs	fakedrake: once you start wrapping defn like that, you're stuck with extensibility. What if you want a 4th parameter?
21:51	fakedrake	but still i will have to define them every time
21:51	fakedrake	ambrosebs: i probably will
21:52	fakedrake	hmm
21:57	fakedrake	Ill just rewrite a couple of lines each time
21:59	amalloy	fakedrake: you can also do that as an actual functional wrapper. eg, (defn wrap-logins [f] (fn ([a cr] (f a cr)) ([a] (f a (anon))) ([a u p] (f a (login (u p))))), (def foo (wrap-login (fn [a cr] code)))
21:59	amalloy	it avoids many of the problems of doing it as a macro
22:02	amalloy	although i do sorta recommend standardizing on one kind of credentials that all functions take, rather than accepting this freeform "creds or user/pass or nothing"
22:03	amalloy	and then you can just add one layer of abstraction somewhere, like one function that takes the freeform mess and converts it to what the rest of the system wants
22:06	fakedrake	amalloy: i did the keys thing
22:06	SegFaultAX	I like the way warden does it (which friend kinda tries to copy)
22:07	fakedrake	but now i want this map to be passed on to other functions, Is there a counterpart for `apply' only for dictionary -> keyword args ?
22:07	hiredman	welcome to a world of pain
22:07	fakedrake	instead of seq -> positional
22:07	hiredman	not to contribute anything useful
22:09	fakedrake	how does this look: (apply fn-with-rc-key-arg "ha" (flatten (seq {:rc 1})))
22:09	fakedrake	?
22:10	bitemyapp	flatten lol, prepare for shitstorm.
22:10	fakedrake	:( flatten was my favourite
22:10	fakedrake	:P
22:11	SegFaultAX	fakedrake: flatten is very often considered a code smell or otherwise a hint that something has gone wrong.
22:11	SegFaultAX	Not always, but often enough that it's worth pointing out.
22:11	fakedrake	aha
22:11	fakedrake	thnx
22:11	justin_smith	if one of your keyword args had a colleciton as a value
22:11	SegFaultAX	As in this case, it's pretty smelly.
22:11	justin_smith	which is not actually uncommon
22:11	justin_smith	flatten would fuck that up
22:11	SegFaultAX	Yup
22:13	fakedrake	thnx
22:13	fakedrake	is there an alaogue to elisp's `let*' ?
22:14	justin_smith	,(mapcat identity {:a [0 1] :b 2})
22:14	clojurebot	(:a [0 1] :b 2)
22:14	justin_smith	an alternative
22:14	amalloy	fakedrake: let
22:14	justin_smith	preserves substructure
22:14	fakedrake	indeed i did not realize xD
22:24	fakedrake	lazy-cat looks awesome!
22:26	amalloy	fakedrake: it's unlikely you want lazy-cat - concat is a better "default", and the difference between them is fairly subtle
22:28	amalloy	actually i don't think i've ever used lazy-cat? that surprises me a little now i think about it
22:28	fakedrake	amalloy: I get a lazy sequence of vectors from `map' and i want a defn to return a lazy sequence of the elements of the vectors
22:28	amalloy	fakedrake: (apply concat vs)
22:28	amalloy	or, really, use mapcat instead of map
22:29	fakedrake	didnt know about that one
22:29	amalloy	~flatten
22:29	fakedrake	amalloy: nice!
22:29	clojurebot	flatten is rarely the right answer. Suppose you need to use a list as your "base type", for example. Usually you only want to flatten a single level, and in that case you're better off with concat. Or, better still, use mapcat to produce a sequence that's shaped right to begin with.
22:29	fakedrake	thnx!
22:29	amalloy	happens to mention this solution already, so it would have been a helpful reply to your earlier attempt to use flatten
22:30	fakedrake	amalloy: indeed
22:33	Raynes	amalloy: HEIL NOFLATTEN
23:10	bellkev	Hey folks, I'm working on a tool to enable the generation of AWS CloudFormation templates using a Clojure-based syntax kind of like leiningen's project.clj. I'm working on how the syntax should look to be most clojurey, and I wonder if anyone has some input: https://gist.github.com/bellkev/7653342
23:22	fakedrake	I am getting this strange error 'Exception in thread "main" java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Parameter declaration uq. should be a vector' when running lein test, is it familiar to anyone?
23:22	fakedrake	http://pastebin.com/DHcqrkKv
23:22	fakedrake	here is the whole thing
23:23	coventry	fakedrake: You may be missing a parameter list in a defn.
23:23	coventry	Probably in reddit_crawler.core_test.
23:24	coventry	And there's probably "uq" wheer the parameter list should be.
23:25	fakedrake	coventry: i dont think i have a defun with uq as a parameter
23:25	fakedrake	let me double check
23:25	fakedrake	ah it was a typo
23:25	fakedrake	coventry: thanx!
23:26	coventry	np
23:40	gfredericks	ambrosebs: that is terribly interesting, thanks
23:41	ambrosebs	gfredericks: I think they're first described in www.ccs.neu.edu/racket/pubs/padl12-stff.pdf‎
23:41	ambrosebs	4.1
23:41	ambrosebs	Fn is case-> in Typed Racket
23:47	coventry	> Seems weird that there is no update fn corresponding to update-in as assoc corresponds to assoc-in. Am I missing something?
23:49	dnolen	core.logic 0.8.5 going out, old stateful defrel stuff is finally dead, good riddance https://github.com/clojure/core.logic
23:50	seancorfield	coventry: what would update do?
23:53	ambrosebs	dnolen: nice!
23:56	coventry	seancorfield: Hmm, I was thinking of something like (defn update [map f key] (assoc map key (f (map key)))), but actually that gets messy when you have multiple kv pairs and args you want to pass f. I guess I see why there's no such thing.
23:57	amalloy	coventry: right. does it take multiple k/v pairs, or does it take &args for the f function?