#clojure – 2013-11-18

2013-11-18

00:08	dnolen	seantallen: that's fixed in master as far as I can tell
00:08	dnolen	seangrove: oops, that was for you ^
00:08	seangrove	Ok, just checking
00:08	dnolen	seangrove: re, Keyword stuff
00:08	seangrove	Still on 2014, haven't updated to 2030
00:12	Raynes	SeanCorfield: lol
00:12	Raynes	Er, seangrove ^
00:12	Raynes	Too many seans.
00:12	seangrove	We're a prolific bunch.
00:19	SeanCorfield	three seans... i'm just not used to that... back in england i was pretty much always the only sean in any group...
00:20	SeanCorfield	jetlag is beginning to get to me... I was up early Eastern time for my flight back from the Conj and now it feels like it's after midnight... but I don't want to give in and go to bed at just 9:30pm :(
00:33	Lajjla	Raynes, are you there?
00:36	danneu	I only get this when I attempt to `lein uberjar`: clojure.lang.Var cannot be cast to java.lang.Class, points to myapp.util$loading__invoke(util.clj:1)
00:36	danneu	anyone happen to know what would be
00:37	TEttinger	well the error is in your code, are you using :aot in the project file on any classes you use gen-class with?
00:38	TEttinger	I'm just guessing here, I have no idea without at least seeing the project.clj on a pastebin
00:52	danneu	TEttinger: my uberjar compiles unless my aot namespace requires any namespace that requires the file that has this ns form: https://www.refheap.com/21009
01:01	TEttinger	danneu, is sandbox.cli listed in the project.clj as one of the :aot namespaces (or just use :aot :all)
01:01	TEttinger	:aot can be a vector or :all
01:01	danneu	yeah, it's in :aot
01:02	TEttinger	common problem because of a breaking change: is the :main namespace listed under :aot (it isn't implicit in some recent lein versions)
01:02	TEttinger	(but it used to be)
01:04	TEttinger	also, I would try :aot :all and see if it gives a different error or fixes it, which is always possible
01:04	TEttinger	occasionally you end up with difficult-to-reproduce bugs because lein clean hasn't been run
01:05	TEttinger	(old versions of a compiled class might be used without realizing it)
01:05	TEttinger	(lein clean removes all old compiled .class files)
01:13	danneu	TEttinger: nothing seems to change. but the stacktrace seems to consistently point to that ns form wherever i put it. at least it points to the file it has it, line 1
01:14	TEttinger	hm, the one you linked to was cli.clj , not util.clj
01:15	TEttinger	are the ns names different than the file names? because that is another possible issue
01:15	danneu	oh, i copied util.clj's ns into cli.clj
01:15	ddellacosta	sometimes emacs just stops parsing a .clj file correctly and parens don't get automatically matched
01:16	ddellacosta	what is up with that? I can't tell why it stops working
01:16	ddellacosta	is there something I can set to re-start the parsing of a file in emacs?
01:17	danneu	ddellacosta: is paredit-mode getting toggled off or something
01:18	ddellacosta	danneu: no, it just sorta kinda works... it will do weird stuff like say "no matching paren found." And then it works again sometimes. Like, right now the same exact chunk of code is suddenly working for me.
01:19	ddellacosta	whatever, restarted it. sigh
01:19	ddellacosta	also, I would really like to have nrepl automatically save history...gotta set that up
01:20	justin_smith	ddellacosta: (setq nrepl-history-file "~/.emacs.d/nrepl-history.eld")
01:20	justin_smith
01:21	justin_smith	that's literally all it takes
01:21	justin_smith	(in your emacs config, of course)
01:21	ddellacosta	justin_smith: thanks...that will tell emacs to automatically record the nrepl history? I really have to learn more about how nrepl + emacs works. :-(
01:21	clojurebot	I don't understand.
01:22	ddellacosta	no, I don't understand.
01:22	justin_smith	ddellacosta: yeah, if the variable is set, it gets saved to
01:22	justin_smith	the file name is totally up to you, if you want it in a different directory or whatever
01:22	ddellacosta	justin_smith: gotcha. Very good, thanks very much!
01:28	danneu	TEttinger: oh god
01:29	TEttinger	hm?
01:29	danneu	TEttinger: clojure.core.typed :refer :all imported `Keyword` which conflicted with `(import clojure.lang Keyword)`
01:29	TEttinger	it was the cli namespace in util.clj?
01:29	TEttinger	oh haha
01:29	danneu	fuck that error message
01:29	danneu	seriously
01:29	TEttinger	seriously
01:30	TEttinger	that's really confusing!
01:30	danneu	it clearly knows what symbol is causing the problem
01:30	TEttinger	I think it changed the meaning of... everything
01:30	TEttinger	by changing what keyword meant
02:43	danneu	it defined Keyword so that by the time (:import [clojure.lang Keyword]) happens, Keyword was a Var and couldn't be resolved into a class
02:49	abaranosky	have any of you setup your Emacs with tags, to search for Java symbols?
02:51	danneu	i've had to bring in a .java file recently. i just let myself suffer.
02:51	danneu	indentation formatting didn't even work
02:51	abaranosky	no need to suffer though. Emacs can handle it, I just happen to not have it setup right to do so.
02:53	abaranosky	danneu: it does require more skillz with elisp though... But I figure that figuring this out would help me "level up" my Emacs fu :)
02:54	danneu	dunno, this channel is home to some of the greatest yakshavers of all time.
02:55	danneu	bringing java to emacs is very... unyak
02:56	logic_prog	is there a way in clojure to get a "repl that cna go up/down stack frames" on an exception?
02:57	logic_prog	the ritz/nrepl stuff seems to only get _one frame_ rather than allowing me to go up/down all the frames
03:48	sveri	Hi, Neil Ford was giving a talk at WJAX this year, there he showed some code: http://pastebin.com/MHn4YBKt now, when i enter this in the repl i get a runtimeexception that indexed cannot be found. Do i have to import some functions to make this work?
04:09	amalloy	sveri: i've seen this function recently, and right above it was a definition of indexed
04:12	sveri	amalloy: ok?
04:13	amalloy	i assume it's in his talk somewhere
04:13	clgv	how was clojure/conj?
04:14	sveri	amalloy: hm, i have not found it yet -.-
04:15	sm0ke	where do i find clojure conj videos?
04:17	sveri	it seems to be in the clojure.contrib libraries
04:28	clgv	sveri: what are you looking for?
05:50	logic_prog	i've finally decided to learn datomic -- where can I read up on how to install datomic with riak as the backend?
06:03	nonuby	reviewing clojure style guide (again), i have a function that scrapes (simple call to clj-http and minimal bastardization) events for today, do you tend to prefix with get i.e. get-todays-events or just today-events?
06:05	clgv	nonuby: IMHO you omit the "get-" there
06:19	xsyn	nonuby: let the HTTP verbs do the GET and then make the functions names nouns
06:19	logic_prog	is there any good reason to use positional arguments rather than keyword arguments?
06:21	pjstadig	logic_prog: apply doesn't work so nicely with keyword arguments
06:21	logic_prog	this seems rather easy to fix
06:22	pjstadig	define "easy"
06:24	logic_prog	can be fixed with a < 10 line macro
06:39	nonuby	a 10 line macro is kinda of complicated in my opinion
06:45	clgv	nonuby: why?
06:46	nonuby	from the perspective of someone relatively new to clojure.. must macros I've seen are just a few lines and the rest delegate to functions that can be called a runtime
06:46	clgv	logic_prog: pjstadig: an approach to keyword arguments where apply works as well and transitive documentation is provided can be found here https://github.com/guv/clojure.options
06:46	clgv	nonuby: yeah, if that is possible that is better style
06:47	clgv	nonuby: although number of lines is not really apropriate for lisp anyway
07:56	dsrx	sorry if this is too vague a question - might anyone know why i can tab-complete a qualified classname in the REPL but when I try to instantiate it or call static methods on it I get a NoClassDefFoundError ?
07:56	dsrx	the jar containing that class is on the classpath
07:57	ucb	dsrx: have you :import the class?
07:57	ucb	dsrx: (maybe a silly question)
07:57	Jarda	dsrx: sometimes I have to restart the repl process when I get such errors
07:58	dsrx	if I :import the class in my core.clj file I also get the NoClassDefFoundError
07:58	dsrx	it just seems bizarre to me that I cannot import/use the class, and yet the REPL is able to tab-complete its fully qualified name
08:00	dsrx	oh, neat, i shut down all my cider processes and repl and now i'm getting a different (JNI) error. progress! :) thanks
08:01	ucb	heh
08:01	justin_smith	completion isn't just possible from the clojure process' info - there is also a method that completes based on the text in other buffers for example
08:31	augustl	https://github.com/paulirish/browser-logos :)
08:31	augustl	another thing we don't have to maintain anymore
08:31	augustl	wrong channel..
08:32	augustl	there's ponies!
09:14	brainproxy	jury duty ... at least there's WiFi this year
10:11	dnolen	two things I would like to see wrapped up before cutting the next CLJS release - http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-681, http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-674 - help welcome!
10:16	makkalot	hi, i'm writing a lein plugin, when i run it inside the development project it runs ok, when run on some sample project i'm getting that criptic error : Could not locate leiningen/core/eval__init.class or leiningen/core/eval.clj on classpath
10:16	makkalot	any ideas ?
10:18	tcrawley	makkalot: do you have `:eval-in-leiningen true` in your project.clj?
10:19	makkalot	tcrawley, yes i have
10:19	TimMc	brainproxy: You get to bring in electronic devices?Lucky.
10:24	tcrawley	makkalot: try asking in #leiningen
10:24	makkalot	tcrawley, thanks will do
10:55	seangrove	Wow, like the lighttable integration going on here https://metaphysicaldeveloper.wordpress.com/2013/11/18/idiomatic-clojure-with-lighttable/
10:56	seangrove	Although the code, while short, seems a bit strange... https://github.com/danielribeiro/LightTableKibit/blob/master/user.keymap.clj#L2
10:59	coventry	What's the right way to get a jar produced by "lein install" into the right place in ~/.m2?
10:59	joegallo	lein install already does that
10:59	joegallo	that is, it's in the correct place.
10:59	coventry	Sweet, thanks.
11:02	brainproxy	TimMc: can only use them in the selection pool area - place you sit for max 3 days waiting for them to call your name for an actual court case selection process
11:02	brainproxy	I'd like to give a macro an "alias" within the same namespace
11:02	brainproxy	right way to do that?
11:03	brainproxy	e.g. suppose I have macro abc, naive attempt: (def also-abc abc)
11:03	learner__	Hi a newbie question here. I am seeing a weird compilation exception on lein repl. Not sure what's going wrong. code is on refheap @ https://www.refheap.com/40b0869b10044388f62c69db7 thanks for your help
11:05	coventry	,(do (defmacro foo2 [] (println "foo")) (def ^{:macro true} bar #'foo2) (bar))
11:05	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
11:05	coventry	(works in a non-crippled repl. :-)
11:14	newblue	coventry: that just blew my mind, especially how it handles arguments:
11:15	newblue	(do (defmacro foo2 [x y] (println "foo" x y)) (def ^{:macro true} bar #'foo2) (bar 5 10))
11:17	TimMc	What surprises you about the arguments?
11:18	brainproxy	found `defalias`, that works :)
11:19	ToBeReplaced	i've got two questions for the collective IRC knowledge today!
11:19	TimMc	juxt, and map is lazy
11:19	ToBeReplaced	1) does anyone have a recommendation for clojure/clojurescript windows automation tooling? anything like pywinauto, autohotkey, autoit, etc.
11:20	newblue	TimMc: when they weren't referenced in the #'foo2 part it's when I was like 'Oh this is what's going on'
11:21	TimMc	Ah, OK.
11:22	newblue	I was trying to figure out the exact problem a few days ago so that got me excited too
11:22	nDuff	ToBeReplaced: I'd probably consider writing a wrapper for Maveryx
11:23	newblue	wait no, it just pushed the problem somewhere else....:/
11:25	coventry	brainproxy: If I understand what defalias is, it's a bigger hammer than you need for this problem. Just adding {:macro true} to the alias metadata works fine.
11:37	brainproxy	coventry: but it wasn't working fine, not sure why
11:39	coventry	brainproxy: Huh. Was this in a jvm-clojure context?
11:39	aconbere	hey folks, I'm new to clojure (started last night) I'm working on a little irc library in clojure to learn with. And I'm having some trouble with tests.
11:39	aconbere	I have the following test I've written
11:39	aconbere	to test the parse output
11:39	aconbere	https://github.com/aconbere/clojure-irc/blob/master/test/irc/core_test.clj#L66-L68
11:39	aconbere	and it doesn't seem to actually be looping through the inputs and asserting anything about the messages
11:39	S11001001	aconbere: use doseq instead of for
11:40	nDuff	aconbere: for just returns a lazy sequence
11:40	aconbere	oooooooooooo
11:40	S11001001	aconbere: for is list-monadplus syntax, not a "looping" construct, per se
11:40	aconbere	brilliant
11:40	srruby	I want to use a jar in clojure. I put the jar in lib. How can I make it accessible to Clojure? ps I'd prefer not to use Maven
11:40	S11001001	srruby: use maven
11:41	S11001001	really :)
11:41	srruby	S11001001: OK, thanks. I thought that it would be simple to use a jar...
11:42	jlfn	Any other emacs users unable to connect to nrepl with today's CIDER from melpa?
11:46	zerokarmaleft	jlfn: works fine here with 20131118.1754
11:47	srruby	I understand that I use maven like RubyGems to install and manage Java components. There seems to be a Maven repository at mvnrepository.com where I can pull in jar files. How does this all fit in with leiningen ?
11:48	joegallo	srruby: what dependency do you want to pull in?
11:48	joegallo	that is, give me one example, please
11:48	gtrak	srruby: lein uses maven repos (remote and local) for its artifacts. The particular repos used are specific to a project, but a few are included by default.
11:48	srruby	joegallo: Texhyphj
11:49	srruby	joegallo: It is on http://mvnrepository.com
11:49	joegallo	srruby: i searched mavenrepository for it, and found this http://search.maven.org/#artifactdetails\|com.googlecode.texhyphj\|texhyphj\|1.2\|bundle
11:49	srruby	joegallo: Right. Now how do I integrate it with Clojure/Leiningen
11:49	joegallo	so you would put [com.googlecode.texhyphj/texhyphj "1.2"] in your project.clj file under :dependencies
11:50	joegallo	and then run lein deps
11:50	srruby	cool
11:50	joegallo	and it'll download it
11:50	joegallo	http://i.imgur.com/DgtYV.gif
11:50	srruby	joegallo: Thanks very much!
11:50	joegallo	you're welcome
11:51	zerokarmaleft	srruby: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj#L39
11:52	zerokarmaleft	the sample project is well-commented, and it's worth scanning the whole thing just to see what options are available
11:52	joegallo	inc zerokarmaleft
11:52	srruby	Thanks everyone. Perhaps I should write a tutorial to cover this. The google search results were not that useful.
11:54	jlfn	zerokarmaleft: that's good to hear, though I'm getting stuck at "Connecting to nRepl..." even with all my customizations removed
11:54	S11001001	srruby: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/stable/doc/TUTORIAL.md#dependencies
11:57	jlfn	uh ok cider-jack-in works, but connecting to an nrepl server hangs :(
12:03	myguidingstar	hi all, I'm going to learn core-logic and I think learning through koans is the best way. But https://github.com/sritchie/core.logic-koans‎ seems to be old. Should I use it? Or any notice?
12:06	zerokarmaleft	myguidingstar: that should be sufficient, most of the basic stuff hasn't changed in a long time
12:06	myguidingstar	zerokarmaleft thanks a lot
12:08	zerokarmaleft	if you hit a wall, someone in here will be happy to help with a specific koan
12:10	myguidingstar	thanks, and I will update it, at least with new lein and dependencies when I finish my learning
12:11	rasmusto	,()
12:11	clojurebot	()
12:11	rasmusto	##()
12:11	lazybot	⇒ ()
12:12	sritchie	myguidingstar: it is old; probably not the best resource
12:12	brainproxy	coventry: here's where the (def ^{:macro true} my-alias #'something} wouldn't work and I used defalias instead:
12:13	brainproxy	https://gist.github.com/michaelsbradleyjr/7509505#file-cljs-debug-macros-clj-L141
12:13	brainproxy	what's happening is that without the defalias, the resulting form is being evaluted w/in the namespace invoking the aliased macro
12:14	brainproxy	note that the invoking namespace is a cljs namespace
12:14	myguidingstar	well, can you give me ones you think the best?
12:16	technomancy	gfredericks: I just added hyperlink support to nrepl-discover a few days ago
12:18	schmir	if I call from a go block into a function, and that function waits with <!! for a message, is this fine or is this more like calling Thread/sleep ?
12:20	hyPiRion	gfredericks: how would that work?
12:21	hyPiRion	I mean, how would you like to browse large data structures?
12:23	TimMc	with style and grace
12:24	justin_smith	for my recent experimentation with implementing quad-trees, I found generating an object in an svg for each data structure, and loading the whole thing in inkscape was an awesome way to debug my code
12:24	justin_smith	since I could quickly see if there were extraneous or missing subdivisions of the tree
12:24	justin_smith	it made me think that an svg based data structure visualizer (or maybe a 3d one?) may be useful in other situations
12:30	technomancy	TimMc: botsnack
12:34	tbaldridge	schmir: yeah, you don't want to do that. It'll block the thread in the fixed thread pool go blocks use
12:35	schmir	tbaldridge: thanks. that's what I assumed.
12:40	coventry2	brainproxy: Oh, I bet the clojurescript context is the key factor, there.
12:53	TimMc	justin_smith: If nothing else, it would at least bring a touch of Hollywood to real-world programming.
12:54	TimMc	I strap on my VR goggles, don haptic gloves, and settle in to investigate a core dump...
12:55	technomancy	TimMc: oculus rift + keyboard pants and you're halfway there
12:55	coventry2	Is Rich Hickey's pods prototype publically available?
12:56	TimMc	Oh man, patentable idea: A projector with eye-tracking software that can black out the portions of the projected image that would stke the eyes of anyone walking in front of the projected image.
12:57	TimMc	That would save presenters from being quite so blinded, and as a bonus you could project colorful geometric imagery on your face while pretending to be from the movie Hackers.
12:58	TimMc	(Concept for patent hereby released to public domain.)
12:59	technomancy	contact the Free Infrastructure Foundation; sign some papers
12:59	technomancy	oh, huh. there actually sorta is such a thing.
12:59	technomancy	I thought it was just from a Stross novel
13:00	rasmusto	technomancy: no, you're thinking of the nanomachines that convert the entire mass of Jupiter into a supercomputer
13:01	technomancy	how silly of me
13:01	slpsys	yay
13:01	clojurebot	yay is sweet
13:02	slpsys	derp, wrong window
13:04	tupi	hello, i still have problems, and it seems random, when executing clojure which uses imagej [no dialog, no window opening, just in memory 'scripts'] and launched through the following kind of command:
13:05	tupi	java -cp clojure.jar:ij-core.jar -Djava.awt.headless=false clojure.main my.clj my-arg1 my-arg2 ...
13:05	tupi	throiugh an ssh -CX session, i have this error:
13:05	tupi	java.lang.InternalError: Can't connect to X11 window server using 'localhost:11.0' as the value of the DISPLAY variable.
13:05	tupi
13:05	tupi	any hint ?
13:06	justin_smith	tupi: ssh and then having the remote use localhost?
13:06	justin_smith	that seems odd
13:06	tupi	justin_smith: i just exited my ssh session, enter again and it did work
13:07	tupi	ssh -CX chatotorix
13:07	tupi	cd /usr/lpdi/projects/clojure/jars; java -cp clojure.jar:ij-core.jar -Djava.awt.headless=false clojure.main /usr/lpdi/projects/clojure/measures/me-step4.2.clj /tmp/t1-rc185/tiles-650x515-step-650x515 tile_5_75.bin png
13:07	tupi	97.514,39.856,7.573,0.708,0.550,0.768,1.081,0.550,0.459,0.817
13:07	tupi
13:07	tupi	but a second ago, it failed
13:07	tupi	echo $DISPLAY
13:07	lazybot	$DISPLAY
13:07	tupi	localhost:11.0
13:08	tupi	it was the same in the previous session that failed
13:08	tupi	why is it random ? and also wanted to know if the position of the -D is important ? [please excuse my stupid quiz, i don't know java]
13:09	nDuff	tupi: -D arguments need to be given before the name of the class to be invoked.
13:09	tupi	nDuff: thanks
13:09	nDuff	tupi: anything after that point is passed to the invoked main as an argument.
13:10	danneu	Is it reliable to use `:uberjar-name "../myapp.jar"` to compile uberjar to project root?
13:10	nDuff	tupi: ...I haven't been paying enough attention to know what you mean by "random".
13:10	nDuff	tupi: ...if you're asking why DISPLAY changes, that's because ssh -X finds the first free port when setting up the proxy.
13:11	tupi	nDuff: sometimes it work, sometime not, the exact same code.
13:11	nDuff	tupi: ...that issue is unlikely to be java-specific, and much more likely to be something about your X and/or X-forwarding configuration.
13:11	nDuff	tupi: try running something like xclock, and you'll probably see the same behavior.
13:12	tupi	it is a very serious problem to us because the computer does calculus for hours before it starts to call clojure scripts, and brakes ...
13:12	nDuff	tupi: does this code actually need to do anything GUI-related?
13:12	nDuff	tupi: if it doesn't, just tell the JVM to turn off its windowing subsystem.
13:12	tupi	nDuff: how, this is what i asked and friends answered the -D option ...
13:12	nDuff	tupi: -Djava.awt.headless=true
13:13	nDuff	tupi: headless=false is telling it that it should use X
13:13	nDuff	tupi: ie. that it has a head.
13:13	nDuff	tupi: ...so, your friend had the right option, but the wrong value for it.
13:13	tupi	oh damned, let me try that now!
13:14	tupi	that did not work either
13:14	tupi	cd /usr/lpdi/projects/clojure/jars; java -Djava.awt.headless=true -cp clojure.jar:ij-core.jar clojure.main /usr/lpdi/projects/clojure/measures/me-step4.2.clj /tmp/t1-rc185/tiles-650x515-step-650x515 tile_5_75.bin png
13:14	tupi	Exception in thread "main" java.awt.HeadlessException
13:14	tupi	at java.awt.GraphicsEnvironment.checkHeadless(GraphicsEnvironment.java:207)
13:14	tupi
13:14	tupi	... ...
13:15	nDuff	tupi: then the code you're running is built to try to talk to X11.
13:15	nDuff	tupi: if you don't mind my asking, why does it need to do that?
13:16	tupi	nDuff: i sware it his not
13:16	nDuff	tupi: look at the stack trace.
13:16	nDuff	tupi: it'll tell you which code is trying to talk to the GUI.
13:16	nDuff	tupi: ...if you follow it further than the part of it you gave us here.
13:17	nDuff	tupi: anyhow, if you can't do a code fix, run a 1-pixel-by-1-pixel display with Xvfb and point your DISPLAY variable to that, but the better answer is to read the stack trace, figure out where the code is, and fix it.
13:17	tupi	nDuff: slow down, i don't follow
13:17	tupi	i don't know java
13:17	tupi	don't know where and how to interpret the stack
13:18	nDuff	tupi: ...well, if you posted the full stack trace somewhere we could see it...
13:18	tupi	but let me paste the code i run and the complete error.
13:18	tupi	yes!
13:18	tupi	:)
13:18	tupi	give me a sec
13:18	nDuff	tupi: ...btw, no pastebins with ads, please.
13:19	TimMc	refheap.com and gist.github.com are good options
13:20	tupi	http://paste.lisp.org/display/139990#1
13:26	nDuff	tupi: well, that's pretty obvious; ij.Menus invokes a GUI.
13:26	nDuff	tupi: ...and (IJ/run) sets that up.
13:27	nDuff	tupi: I'd suggest complaining loudly to the folks who built that library, and then setting up Xvfb to provide an immediate workaround.
13:27	coventry	In emacs, how do you catch an error from nrepl-send-string-sync? E.g., how do I get this to work? (condition-case foo (nrepl-send-string-sync "(throw (Throwable.))" "user") (error (message (format "Error! %s" (pp-to-string foo)))))
13:27	tupi	nDuff: ok
13:27	tupi	i did complain already actually, but the original design of imagej was all wrong
13:28	tupi	never mind, i'll find a solution
13:30	coventry	Oh, I think the problem is that nrepl-send-string-sync is an async call pretending to be synchronous. If that's the case I need to make a request using my own handler.
13:30	tupi	i did ask here because although using (IJ/run bin-imp ... ) it is really not obvious at all that the menu must be instatiated elsewhere then in memory
13:31	tupi	nothing is actually opened on the screen at anytime, but let's forget this, i'll complain with them ... or not [they are not very friendly :)]
13:32	dsabanin	hey guys
13:32	dsabanin	having problems with recur: https://gist.github.com/dsabanin/7532909
13:32	dsabanin	what seems to be a tail position to me, doesn't seem like it to clojure
13:32	dsabanin	am I missing something?
13:34	cemerick	dsabanin: you can't recur out of a catch, unfortunately
13:35	zilti	dsabanin: Recurring out of a catch? Are you insane or something?
13:35	dsabanin	why? :)
13:36	dsabanin	cemerick thanks
13:36	cemerick	dsabanin: the compiler won't allow it. :-P It's possible to implement, but is a impl. complication that the powers-that-be didn't want to wade into IIRC.
13:37	dsabanin	thanks for the explanation
13:37	hiredman	catch is a dynamic scoping thing, dealing with dynamicly scoped things and loop/recur's contract of fixed stack size is tricky
13:37	hiredman	so generally you cannot/should not recur across dynamic scopes
13:38	hiredman	if you have (defn foo [x] (binding [...] (recur (inc x)))) you can change it to (defn foo [x] (binding [...] (loop [x x] (recur (inc x)))))
13:39	hiredman	recursive calles from catch tend to end up as a trampoline
13:41	dsabanin	I guess I can imlement this as a trampoline, thanks for the idea
13:41	hiredman	dsabanin: have you seen robert bruce? https://github.com/joegallo/robert-bruce
13:43	dsabanin	yeah, seen it, but I need more control
13:43	dsabanin	trampoline solution just worked, thanks for the help everyone
14:03	danneu	What's the main reason a jar seems to hang once it should return from whatever you called in -main?
14:03	technomancy	danneu: active threads
14:03	justin_smith	danneu: are you using agents?
14:06	Raynes	(System/exit 0) ;; DIE!!! DIEEEEE!!!!
14:10	kendallbuchanan	Anyone know how I might restrict the compiled dependencies in my project to a specific version of Clojure? One of the project's dependencies (can't avoid using it) uses a version range (beginning with Clojure 1.2), and now Heroku is compiling 1.2, 1.3, 1.4, 1.5, and 1.5.1 into my slug.
14:11	technomancy	kendallbuchanan: wait for the next version of leiningen, and `lein deps :tree` will show you the proper :exclusions vector to use =)
14:12	technomancy	kendallbuchanan: more seriously, if you have isolated the problematic dependency, put :exclusions [org.clojure/clojure] inside the vector
14:12	kendallbuchanan	technomancy: Hehe, so, [org.clojure/clojure :exclusions "1.2" …] or something along those lines?
14:13	technomancy	kendallbuchanan: more like [org.problems/i-use-version-ranges-boo "1.8.1" :exclusions [org.clojure/clojure]]
14:13	kendallbuchanan	technomancy: Okay, I see now… the :exclusions key should be added to the dependency that's introducing the wrong versions.
14:14	technomancy	aye
14:14	kendallbuchanan	technomancy: Perfect, thank you!
14:14	technomancy	seriously one day away from releasing a version of leiningen that tells you this =)
14:14	kendallbuchanan	Is that likely to bring my slug size down substantially?
14:14	kendallbuchanan	That's awesome.
14:14	technomancy	kendallbuchanan: no, it won't affect size. it doesn't include those versions in your slug, it just downloads the poms for them.
14:15	kendallbuchanan	Okay, then I'm on the wrong track.
14:15	technomancy	kendallbuchanan: switching to an uberjar deploy will drop the slug size a bit though
14:15	kendallbuchanan	K, somehow I've got a slug over 300MB, with a fairly small codebase
14:15	kendallbuchanan	Is this common? Like, is it possible the number of dependencies I have are adding up?
14:16	technomancy	kendallbuchanan: it's possible if your deps have changed a lot that old versions aren't getting properly cleaned out. I recommend switching to an uberjar deploy and seeing if that helps.
14:16	technomancy	kendallbuchanan: if it doesn't let me know the app name (/msg is fine) and I can check it out
14:17	kendallbuchanan	Okay, perfect, lemme try that
14:23	augustl	anyone happen to know why https://github.com/clojure/data.fressian isn't in clojars or maven central?
14:25	dnolen	cemerick: results of the survey are very interesting
14:25	cemerick	dnolen: yup, there's some gems in there
14:25	cemerick	dnolen: you read too fast to have actually read it tho! :-P
14:26	dnolen	cemerick: heh I read the post :) still looking over the graphs
14:26	seangrove	I didn't participate.
14:26	cemerick	seangrove: wat?
14:26	bbloom	dnolen: i'd read it but google groups' "sign in" button is broken
14:26	bbloom	weee
14:27	cemerick	bbloom: results are on my blog
14:27	mdrogalis	Interesting. I see a lot of "I want core.async IN the language"
14:27	technomancy	eep
14:27	mdrogalis	In the "what feature do you want in Clojure" question
14:28	joegallo	sigh...
14:28	seangrove	Wonder why people would want it in the language...
14:28	Glenjamin	oh, results out?
14:29	cemerick	I guess this is what happens when you ask people for language feature suggestions.
14:29	dnolen	cemerick: interesting the number of people using ClojureScript, but the uptake seems relatively recent
14:29	Apage43	that's why I had trouble with that box
14:29	technomancy	cemerick: people too shy to put "dunno; it's all good" in?
14:29	hyPiRion	seangrove: probably because you can't send messages from functions. It's a bit more constrained than Go's message passing style
14:29	mdrogalis	Types, user reader macros, debuggers, TCO from eyeing it up
14:29	Apage43	I couldn't think of anything that couldn't be "just" a library
14:29	hyPiRion	I see like that ~5% who answered that question answered "Faster startup time"
14:29	seangrove	cemerick: In our cose, we were exclusively a cljs shop, and we only late (~7-8 months later) adopted jcm-clj. So we fit your rosier model.
14:30	cemerick	technomancy: there are some
14:30	dnolen	the number of CLJS Node.js users is significant
14:30	mdrogalis	Hm. "Transactional namespaces". I haven't heard of that before.
14:30	mdrogalis	What do you think that might mean?
14:31	technomancy	mdrogalis: if you run into an error these days you can have a half-compiled namespace
14:31	dnolen	cemerick: lein-cljsbuild mostly won, but 145 people using some other means is interesting
14:31	cemerick	mdrogalis: long-standing wishlist item for many
14:31	technomancy	mdrogalis: whereas what you want is atomicity
14:31	mdrogalis	From nrepl.el? Or in Clojure itself?
14:31	bitemyapp	I would like this.
14:31	mdrogalis	I never knew that could even happen.
14:31	cemerick	dnolen: yeah, I haven't gone through all the freeform bits yet. I'll bet that a large part of that is "configuration overload sucks".
14:32	technomancy	mdrogalis: from anywhere; either completely compile or completely fail
14:32	bitemyapp	mdrogalis: no difference, if it's implemented in Clojure then it's obv available through nRepl.
14:32	mdrogalis	I use Clojure an awful lot, and I never noticed that. Huh.
14:32	technomancy	mdrogalis: it's easy to do if you're OK making var lookup involve an extra layer of dereferencing =)
14:32	mdrogalis	Then again, I never write errors, sooo..
14:32	hyPiRion	Well, most people don't tend to require errored namespaces
14:32	bitemyapp	mdrogalis: happens to me all the time :(
14:32	mdrogalis	I probably saw it and didn't know what it was.
14:33	technomancy	namespaces now are a mutable map that gets bashed in place, which is sadface
14:33	cemerick	dnolen: oddly, those targeting node.js still report using both Clojure and ClojureScript.
14:33	Glenjamin	i wonder if lower response means answers are skewed to hardcore clojurists
14:34	dnolen	cemerick: good to see we're working on the right stuff w/ respect to top 3 CLJS frustrations
14:34	bitemyapp	Glenjamin: I'm pretty sure they are, Hacker News would've brought in more muggles.
14:34	ToBeReplaced	cemerick: i use CLJS on node.js for scripting, clojure for everything else, for example
14:34	cemerick	ToBeReplaced: noted, thanks
14:35	joegallo	fwiw, technomancy, i said that leiningen needs to be in clojure
14:35	pjstadig	joegallo: haha wat?
14:35	joegallo	jk
14:35	technomancy	joegallo: you monster
14:35	bitemyapp	yes because contributors to Leiningen want to sign a CA and use JIRA.
14:35	pjstadig	consolidate all the things!
14:36	cemerick	dnolen: yeah; going to make Austin bulletproof over the next year.
14:36	bitemyapp	joegallo: you are trying to kill Clojure, aren't you? :P
14:36	joegallo	i just, you know, it doesn't feel "official" enough to me right now
14:36	joegallo	i also think it needs a clarifying rename
14:36	technomancy	joegallo: I'll try to post more pics of me coding with a suit and tie
14:36	technomancy	ahaha
14:36	hyPiRion	hahaha
14:36	hyPiRion	On second thought, that would've been a scary sight
14:37	bitemyapp	technomancy coding in a suit and tie means the doom of the universe.
14:37	ToBeReplaced	i'm surprised so little commercial services/products
14:39	Glenjamin	>> It is still very difficult to find a good, simple "Quick-start" guide to point interested parties at.
14:39	Glenjamin	this
14:39	Glenjamin	oh
14:39	Glenjamin	that was me
14:39	Glenjamin	i stand by it
14:40	Glenjamin	unsure what this means? "Namespaces are a horrible, broken mess. They are a wildly complected nightmare."
14:40	coventry	I think you could fake transactional namespace loading pretty easily by using the code-loading functions in ztellman's sleight library to run remove-ns on any load which raised an exception.
14:41	technomancy	hm; interesting
14:41	technomancy	assumed it was only possible inside the compiler, which is why I haven't taken a shot at it yet =)
14:41	technomancy	but maybe not
14:42	Glenjamin	surprised to not see people complaining about dependency versions much
14:42	Glenjamin	hah: "Lack of static typing."
14:42	Glenjamin	tools, hiring and docs seem to be a theme though
14:43	mdrogalis	I put down proper predicate dispatch
14:43	Glenjamin	polldaddy doesn't keep your per-page choice when you change pages :(
14:44	Glenjamin	lots of complaints about lisp syntax - which seems unhelpful
14:46	cemerick	nDuff: those comments are in there. Until something equivalent/better shows up, I just point at cljx.
14:46	coventry	"why would you need to add a feature? I thought that's what macros are for."
14:46	technomancy	coventry: ifn regexes!
14:47	Glenjamin	could tagged literals do feature expressions?
14:47	nDuff	coventry: if everyone agreed on those macros (and support for them were universal across build systems), we'd be fine. Not _everyone_ can use lein. :(
14:48	technomancy	lots of people want CL conditions, which is understandable
14:48	coventry	nDuff, technomancy: Not my line, it's a quote from the desired-language-features list. :-)
14:48	technomancy	ah right
14:48	cemerick	Glenjamin: Yes, though it's be an absurd hack. Go look at cljx.
14:48	ToBeReplaced	i remember seeing JIRA discussion on platform-dependent code (a la cljx or others) -- where is the discussion at now?
14:49	cemerick	ToBeReplaced: Linked from the cljx readme.
14:49	cemerick	Come on, someone else ask a question, I'll find a way to work cljx into it. :-P
14:50	xcthulhu	I have a scrip that spawns a process using lein, but when I kill lein the underlying java process is still running
14:50	Glenjamin	based on this it seems like a kickstarter to fund a decent documentation site would do well
14:50	xcthulhu	How do I stop this behavior?
14:51	technomancy	xcthulhu: have you tried trampolining?
14:51	xcthulhu	Yeah, doesn't work :(
14:51	technomancy	oh?
14:51	hyPiRion	huh
14:51	hyPiRion	you using `lein exec` or something like that?
14:52	Glenjamin	what did you do to kill lein?
14:52	Glenjamin	interesting note: "Who's actively driving the vision now - is Rich focusing on Datomic?"
14:53	xcthulhu	I spawn lein in a shell with
14:53	xcthulhu	(cd repo ; lein trampoline ring server-headless ) &
14:53	xcthulhu	And I have in the same script
14:53	xcthulhu	trap 'kill $(jobs -p)' EXIT
14:53	xcthulhu	So all of the child jobs get kill when I exit the script
14:55	xcthulhu	@Glenjamin Something like hoogle for clojure would be awesome...
15:00	bitemyapp	lolque @ lighttable's nil for something that threw an exception
15:00	TimMc	"lolque"?
15:00	bitemyapp	TimMc: lolwut
15:00	bitemyapp	but en Español
15:01	bitemyapp	I'm not actually sure how people get work done in LT.
15:01	bitemyapp	I can't even run my tests and see the exception they threw.
15:05	xcthulhu	Okay, so the problem was that I was running everything in a child shell
15:05	bitemyapp	xcthulhu: greetings elder one
15:05	xcthulhu	So if someone ever comes across this IRC log on google some day, they should know: don't use lein in child shells
15:06	xcthulhu	You can do the same thing as ( cd <dir> ; blah blah ) with popd
15:06	xcthulhu	...and pushd
15:06	xcthulhu	Hey bitemyapp
15:06	bitemyapp	xcthulhu: I listen to music about you.
15:06	xcthulhu	I develop in LT
15:07	bitemyapp	xcthulhu: so you don't write any tests?
15:07	xcthulhu	Yeah, I write tests
15:07	bitemyapp	...and how do you know if they worked or not?
15:07	xcthulhu	lein test
15:07	bitemyapp	what a cop out.
15:07	xcthulhu	haha
15:07	bitemyapp	so what you're actually saying is, "I edit text in LT, but leiningen from the command line does all the heavy lifting"
15:08	bitemyapp	I will say this though, it's very responsive and presents text nicely. Wish the AA was a little better tho.
15:08	coventry	What's AA?
15:09	bitemyapp	coventry: antialiasing
15:09	coventry	Ah.
15:09	bitemyapp	the text is kinda janky on my Mac.
15:09	bitemyapp	actually, I can side-by-side the same code and you'll see what I mean.
15:09	bitemyapp	sigh, of course LT doesn't remember what files/folders I had open ;_;
15:09	bitemyapp	...or it did and it just lagged? dafuq
15:10	xcthulhu	I thought it used webkit for display?
15:10	bitemyapp	coventry: http://i.imgur.com/WQ4VEmo.png
15:10	coventry	Also, using "lein test" in a conjunction with a tool like lighttable sounds a bit like driving a flying car which you have to get out and push every so often. :-)
15:11	bitemyapp	xcthulhu: it does but you can set the AA of your fonts.
15:11	bitemyapp	coventry: that's how I reacted!
15:11	bitemyapp	coventry: left is Emacs, grey weirdness on the right is LT
15:11	bitemyapp	looks like a shitty courier font or something
15:12	bitemyapp	it is seriously responsive though
15:12	bitemyapp	leveraging webkit was a really good idea.
15:13	mtp	"a shitty courier font" is redundant
15:13	mtp	;)
15:14	bitemyapp	I'm willing to believe in the hypothetical non-shitty courier font.
15:14	TimMc	s/courier/monospace/
15:14	TimMc	Courier is a specific font.
15:14	xcthulhu	bitemyapp: Anonymous Pro is nice
15:15	TimMc	Consolas is pretty good.
15:15	xcthulhu	Yeah, I like that one too
15:15	TimMc	Or Inconsolata, I can't remember which is which
15:16	TimMc	Ubuntu's default monospace is decent. "Ubuntu Mono", I think.
15:16	bitemyapp	TimMc: yeah I like Ubuntu Mono.
15:16	bitemyapp	I use Monospace on Linux and Menlo on Mac.
15:17	bitemyapp	happy with both.
15:25	blr	cemerick: enjoyed reading the results of the survey. Just a comment from a co-worker that I felt was worth mentioning, he was looking for a javascript alternative, but didn't consider clojure as he felt it was just for 'alpha-hackers'. Do you think that's a common perception?
15:25	blr	and if so, what can we do to change that perception?
15:25	ToxicFrog	"alpha-hackers"?
15:25	blr	ToxicFrog: right, his perception was that clojure was inaccessible and hard
15:26	blr	ToxicFrog: also see people adopting Golang without any consideration of clojure (or erlang) and also wonder why that is
15:27	ToxicFrog	Aah.
15:30	bitemyapp	blr: alpha hackers? lol no.
15:30	blr	I mean, there must be things we can be doing as a community to make it clear that clojure makes things much easier in many respects. I guess part of the problem is that there are so many innovative (and potentially challenging) things worth talking about like core.logic and core.async that might be intimidating
15:31	blr	bitemyapp: I know it's silly, but if that's the impression most software developers have of clojure it's a problem
15:31	bitemyapp	I've been teaching Clojure to Python programmers for awhile.
15:31	bitemyapp	Nobody perceives Pythonistas as being alpha anything, let alone alpha hackers.
15:31	blr	bitemyapp: the perception isn't correct, I'm just saying that I think it's there
15:31	bitemyapp	blr: then correct it, it's silly.
15:32	blr	I'm a totally mediocre programmer that does python professionally - if I can get my head around it anyone can :P
15:32	bitemyapp	Clojure is not a difficult language to learn by any means. There are almost no non-trivial prerequisites at all
15:32	blr	bitemyapp: I know this, but I don't think most programmers do. I think the general perception is that it is 'academic' and too hard
15:33	nDuff	The language isn't hard to learn. But if you've had your head wrapped around OOP for the last decade, it can take a pretty substantial while before one feels comfortable.
15:33	TimMc	bitemyapp: Wait, you mean you don't need to understand how to use monad assembly language to use Clojure?
15:33	upwardindex	Was 'format'
15:33	bitemyapp	agghhhhhhh fucked by laziness again
15:33	upwardindex	oops
15:33	bitemyapp	I knew that wasn't going to work.
15:33	amalloy	brb inventing monad assembly language
15:33	bitemyapp	fuckity fuck
15:34	upwardindex	Was 'format' removed for cljs? I just updated and it won't find the function anymore?
15:34	cemerick	blr: I'm not sure I can comment on that usefully. ClojureScript is definitely undocumented, so you do need to know what you're doing to use it. Ease of use and round edges aren't really a development priority at the moment. Honestly, there's bigger fish to fry.
15:34	amalloy	upwardindex: did it ever exist? jvm format is based on String/format, and i didn't think there was a cljs port to begin with
15:34	dnolen	upwardindex: format no longer exists was removed some time ago, you can just use goog.format directly - that's all it ever did anyway
15:34	TimMc	It's for alpha-hackers, in the sense of programmers who like using alpha-stage languages. :-P
15:35	upwardindex	dnolen: ok that explains it thanks!
15:35	blr	cemerick: I understand that entirely, I'm just concerned that many people I work with are making new language choices without any consideration of clojure and clojurescript
15:35	solidus_	I can't connect using nrepl from emacs to "lein repl" - its just saying "Connecting to nREPL on 127.0.0.1:38689"
15:35	cemerick	That said, who doesn't want to be an "alpha hacker", whatever that means? AFAICT, the other big languages targeting JavaScript are, in relative terms, duller tools that I'd rather not spend mental capital working around.
15:35	dnolen	blr: fwiw, I don't think learning core.logic is all that important/interesting, as much as it gets name dropped.
15:36	dnolen	blr: and if people are adopting go, core.async is the same CSP concepts, you're going to have a learning curve regardless
15:36	blr	dnolen: oh right, but things like core.logic are typically what you see on hackernews, not how easy it is to build a web application in clojure
15:36	cemerick	blr: well, Clojure is very mature, works well, and has tonnes of books, blog posts, etc written about it, not to mention very comprehensive official documentation. I have little sympathy with anyone that thinks it's "too hard".
15:36	bitemyapp	you don't really have to use core.async for most things anyway
15:36	bitemyapp	it's only if you want to go STRAIGHT TO PLAID with something concurrent
15:37	bitemyapp	oddly I see people freaking out a lot less about the equivalent tooling in Haskell with forkIO, MVars, and the rest.
15:37	dnolen	blr: huh, I think Clojure + web gets decent play on HN
15:37	cemerick	dnolen: fair point, but you have to admit, braces and = signs are awesome
15:37	cemerick	:-P
15:37	solidus_	any good recent tutorial on how to work with emacs/lein? can't seem to get nrepl to work....
15:37	bitemyapp	blr: your mistake was reading hacker news.
15:38	bitemyapp	solidus_: can't seem or can't?
15:38	bitemyapp	because if you're mistaken in your perception of non-functionality and incapability to rectify the situation we might end up in a rabbit hole.
15:38	blr	bitemyapp: this is from my coworkers perspectives
15:39	bitemyapp	blr: well tell them not to read Hacker News either.
15:40	glosoli	Hacker News has too much crap in it lately
15:40	solidus_	bitemyapp: nice man, using big words and everything
15:40	solidus_	Need help on getting emacs/nrepl/lein working plz
15:40	bitemyapp	solidus_: https://github.com/bitemyapp/dotfiles/
15:40	bitemyapp	solidus_: nice man, using "plz" and everything.
15:40	Glenjamin	i showed my co-workers some of my clojure, they said "wtf loads of parens", I looked, and suddently saw parens i hadn't been seeing
15:40	bitemyapp	solidus_: look at the repo. Figure out what you fucked up.
15:41	bitemyapp	Glenjamin: whining about parens reminds me of when you give a 10 year old kid their first taste of beer
15:41	bitemyapp	"YUCK I'LL NEVER DRINK THIS!"
15:41	Glenjamin	yes, but social pressure makes you
15:41	Glenjamin	but there's less social pressure to embrace lisps
15:41	Apage43	i have coworkers walk over to my monitor and point "AGH! PARENS!"
15:42	Apage43	It's a bit exasperating
15:42	Glenjamin	it was really odd that i didn't even notice until they went argh
15:42	bitemyapp	Apage43: I'm surprised I haven't seen you perp-walked out of your office for murder.
15:42	blr	anyway, I'm giving an introductory talk about clojurescript at my local tech meetup. I guess that's the best thing we can do?
15:42	clojurebot	excusez-moi
15:42	Glenjamin	i think a really good "here's how you get started with clojure" guide would be great
15:43	coventry	solidus_: Does M-x nrepl-jack-in work for you?
15:43	solidus_	coventry: nope
15:43	Apage43	what do you get when you try nrepl-jack-in
15:43	solidus_	Starting nREPL server...
15:43	bitemyapp	solidus_: don't use nrepl-jack-in.
15:43	solidus_	and its stuck
15:43	bitemyapp	solidus_: start lein repl from the terminal in the project you want to use
15:43	Apage43	huh
15:44	bitemyapp	solidus_: connect to the port directly from Emacs.
15:44	llasram	bitemyapp: WHat?
15:44	llasram	bitemyapp: Why would you suggest people do that?
15:44	bitemyapp	llasram: because then we can find out which part is breaking.
15:44	solidus_	Exception Unsupported option(s) supplied: :headless clojure.core/load-libs (core.clj:5408)
15:44	llasram	Oh, for testing, I see
15:44	bitemyapp	why the fuck else would I suggest that?
15:44	llasram	Haha
15:44	solidus_	I did that too, doesn't work
15:44	tolitius	Glenjamin: I hooked several people on Clojure via 4clojure. It has all the right properties: challenging, addictive and "game competitive"
15:44	llasram	bitemyapp: I don't know. Because you'd gone mad? :-)
15:44	bitemyapp	solidus_: you don't need headless
15:44	bitemyapp	solidus_: type in, "lein repl"
15:44	bitemyapp	solidus_: no more, no less
15:44	bitemyapp	solidus_: in the project you want to start
15:45	bitemyapp	solidus_: when you've done that let me know so I can provide the next instruction
15:45	bitemyapp	because I didn't say, "lein repl and some other bullshit like :headless"
15:45	bitemyapp	I said, "lein repl" in the project you're trying to load.
15:45	Glenjamin	tolitius: i like 4clojure, but i think it lacks a companion piece that tells you what's available to solve the problems
15:45	solidus_	lein repl => nrepl from emacs => got a nrepl-connection buffer with "user=>" but I can't do anything
15:46	solidus_	i mean i etner numbers and press enter nothing happens
15:46	bitemyapp	solidus_: I said to wait my next instruction
15:46	bitemyapp	solidus_: okay, first off, in the lein repl, what port does it say?
15:46	bitemyapp	close emacs
15:46	bitemyapp	reopen it.
15:46	solidus_	5014 same one i entered in emacs
15:46	bitemyapp	solidus_: stop jumping ahead of my instructions.
15:46	coventry	solidus_: Can you interact with the repl in the terminal where you ran "lein repl"?
15:46	solidus_	yes
15:46	bitemyapp	coventry: thanks, I was about to get there
15:46	bitemyapp	coventry: you know what, he's all yours.
15:46	bitemyapp	coventry: solidus_ good luck to both of you.
15:47	tolitius	Glenjamin: yes, I see this side of it, however it is engaging enough for people (read interested in problem solving, programming) to find the way (read clojure docs with examples)
15:47	Glenjamin	mm
15:47	mdrogalis	Hadoop just rained all over my parade. Escaped Java polymorphism problem by calling into Clojure protocols. Hadoop hated that. D:
15:47	Glenjamin	the cheatsheet is pretty good, but clojure.org links to an old version
15:47	coventry	solidus_: Can you telnet to the port lein repl opened?
15:47	Glenjamin	and google throws up clojuredocs which only does 1.2 and 1.3
15:47	Apage43	o.0
15:48	Glenjamin	http://www.braveclojure.com/getting-started/ seems like it might be good though
15:48	solidus_	ahmmm telnet 127.0.0.1:5014 hangs...
15:48	tolitius	Glenjamin: that "old" version is 99% good for all the problems (I only say 99%, since I have not seen a problem that required something other than what's already in the docs)
15:48	tolitius	Glenjamin: a 4clojure problem, I mean
15:48	coventry	solidus_: Probably a firewall issue.
15:48	solidus_	telnet: could not resolve 127.0.0.1:5014/telnet: System error
15:48	Apage43	no :, space
15:49	Apage43	but also
15:49	Apage43	that's a weird thing to do
15:49	Glenjamin	tolitius: telnet is odd and wants a space between the host and port instead of a colon
15:49	coventry	Oh, Apage43 is right. "telnet localhost 5014" (space rather than colon.)
15:49	solidus_	oh right, with space it works
15:49	Glenjamin	the problem is, i'm past that beginner stage, so i'm not in a position to evaluate intro guides very well
15:49	glosoli	Glenjamin: http://aphyr.com/
15:49	solidus_	i get the user=> prompt
15:49	Glenjamin	4clojure is how i got into it
15:50	glosoli	Glenjamin: this is pretty decent imo
15:50	coventry	solidus_: You get a "user=>" prompt from the telnet command? That's weird.
15:50	solidus_	yea i do
15:50	Apage43	( I think he might have a very old leiningen guys )
15:50	Glenjamin	glosoli: oo, looks good from a quick skim - seems similar in structure to the python tutorial - which is excellent
15:51	Glenjamin	solidus_: what output does `lein version` get you?
15:51	Apage43	solidus_: make sure you have the latest lein; https://raw.github.com/technomancy/leiningen/stable/bin/lein
15:51	coventry	Well, if Apage43 is right, you might try "lein upgrade" and starting over.
15:51	Apage43	or that
15:51	Apage43	it should upgrade itself. But I believe he's actually on 1.X
15:51	glosoli	Glenjamin: also you should follow Planet Clojure RSS
15:51	Apage43	which may or may not require updating the script
15:52	arrdem	bitemyapp: how goes
15:52	bitemyapp	arrdem: resisting the urge to strangle bitches.
15:52	blr	Glenjamin: looking to python for guidance around documentation is generally not a bad idea
15:52	bitemyapp	arrdem: working on brambling.
15:52	solidus_	oh shit i wasn't using the right command, got Leiningen 2.1.2 on Java 1.7.0_25 OpenJDK Client VM
15:52	solidus_	and this version doesn't give user=> prompt on telnet
15:52	Apage43	oh, 2.1.2's not that old
15:52	Glenjamin	blr: mm, the python core docs are really excellent
15:52	Apage43	hm
15:52	Apage43	oh
15:52	solidus_	but it does connect
15:52	Apage43	2.1.2 is what you have now
15:53	blr	Glenjamin: a lot of the docs for popular projects are generally very good too
15:53	Apage43	right, so now you actually do have nREPL
15:53	bitemyapp	arrdem: turns out, laziness in Clojure isn't just a matter of s/reduce/reductions/g - whodathunkit?
15:53	tolitius	Glenjamin: it seems that you are not looking for sources that make people understand how to get started, but for "why would they need to bother", and that is not something that can be solved by a single tutorial.. "it's inside, Luke"..
15:53	aconbere	do people have a preferred way to read off a socket in clojure? I can just pull in some java libraries, but wondering if there's something a little more native that's preferable"
15:54	Glenjamin	tolitius: "why" = watch "Simple made easy"
15:54	ibdknox	is anyone aware of someone working on a code formatter for clojure?
15:54	Glenjamin	it's more: I'm a programmer and i've decided to learn clojure. Walk me through it
15:54	Glenjamin	the aphyr link from glosoli looks pretty good
15:54	blr	ibdknox: something like gofmt?
15:54	coventry	solidus_: I would try "lein upgrade" and "lein repl" then telneting to the new port. See if you still get a repl prompt in the telnet session then.
15:54	bitemyapp	aconbere: https://github.com/bitemyapp/revise/
15:55	bitemyapp	ibdknox: why do unit tests that fail just show "nil" in an instarepl'd buffer?
15:55	bitemyapp	fail meaning an exception was thrown.
15:55	ibdknox	blr: yep
15:56	bitemyapp	Which is indistinguishable from the test succeeding.
15:56	ibdknox	bitemyapp: anything in the console?
15:56	bitemyapp	I have no idea
15:56	bitemyapp	I was so disgusted I closed LT
15:56	ibdknox	lol
15:56	blr	ibdknox: sure wouldn't hurt, would nicely compliment kibit
15:56	bitemyapp	kibit with side effects? ick, plz no.
15:57	ibdknox	it's actually necessary for a number of things
15:57	bitemyapp	make code formatting its own plugin.
15:57	blr	bitemyapp: wasn't suggesting that kibit change :P
15:57	ibdknox	I was just asking if anyone was aware of a project like that already being worked on
15:57	blr	looks like you are now ibdknox! :D
15:57	ibdknox	lol
15:58	Glenjamin	the closest i've got is https://github.com/odyssomay/sublime-lispindent
15:58	Glenjamin	which does a sort-of ok job if you do the linebreaks
15:58	ibdknox	yeah, indenting is already taken care of
15:59	Glenjamin	deciding when to newline seems non-deterministic though
15:59	Glenjamin	especially when you include things like GET and POST from compojure and with-*
15:59	Glenjamin	well, if it was just with-* thats a fairly easy rule
15:59	ibdknox	I imagine there's a fairly straightforward set of rules you could follow to get most of the way there
16:00	ibdknox	the use case would be for formatting generated code
16:00	Glenjamin	it would have to be easily tweakable so it doesn't undo your nice work when you want to step outside the existing rules
16:00	coventry	ibdknox: What about clojure's pprint?
16:00	solidus_	i updated lein to [Leiningen 2.3.3 on Java 1.7.0_25 OpenJDK Client VM] still no luck connecting from emacs
16:00	hyPiRion	Problem is comments
16:01	coventry	hyPiRion: Ah, right.
16:01	coventry	solidus_: What about the telnet response?
16:02	solidus_	connecting, without "user=>" prompt
16:02	ibdknox	coventry: also pprint doesn't do a very good job with code
16:03	coventry	solidus_: No idea, then.
16:03	solidus_	oh jesus fuck, i had some auto-complete related shit in my .emacs
16:03	solidus_	removed it now it connects just fine
16:03	solidus_	thanks for the help anyways
16:04	ibdknox	bitemyapp: exceptions are caught by the clojure.test and it prints them out to the console.
16:04	ibdknox	bitemyapp: not much I can do about that
16:04	bitemyapp	Indeed.
16:05	blr	has anyone made the jump from vim to emacs and found it valuable?
16:05	arrdem	bitemyapp: that isn't surprising in the least...
16:05	ibdknox	once plugin authoring is in, presumably someone will write a nice clojure.test plugin :)
16:06	blr	as in genuinely worth the mental anguish...
16:06	TimMc	bitemyapp: I still think beer is yucky. :-P
16:06	hyPiRion	ibdknox: `emacs --batch -l ~/.emacs.d/init.el --eval='(clojure-mode)' --eval='(indent-region (point-min) (point-max) nil)' -f save-buffer myfile.clj` can indent files properly :)
16:06	glosoli	blr: VIM lacking proper integration with nREPl was the case for me of ditching it
16:06	glosoli	:)
16:06	hyPiRion	Although I have high doubts that was what you're looking for
16:07	arrdem	glosoli: I agree... but at least they have fireplace now
16:07	blr	glosoli: I'm finding vim-fireplace good, but then I don't really know what I'm missing in emacs
16:07	glosoli	arrdem: I did use fireplace it's inferior to what emacs provide
16:07	ibdknox	hyPiRion: wait, emacs has true code formmating?
16:07	ibdknox	formatting*
16:08	glosoli	last time I checked it does :)
16:08	blr	glosoli: I've been using vim for 15 years though, so it's going to be a painful process...
16:08	TimMc	ibdknox!
16:08	glosoli	blr: Well, if you don't feel like VIM fireplace is uncomfortable, don't switch
16:08	TimMc	Good to see you around.
16:09	coventry	ibdknox: M-x c-guess even does a fairly decent job of inferring the formatting rules for clojure's java code. It's pretty sweet.
16:09	arrdem	glosoli: it's better than nailgun tho...
16:09	blr	arrdem: yes, that wasn't great.
16:09	arrdem	glosoli: nailgun is what drove me to transition to Emacs this past Christmass
16:09	technomancy	emacs won't break long lines for you though; I don't think anyone's attacked that problem algorithmically in the general case
16:10	technomancy	(meaning outside ns)
16:10	hyPiRion	ibdknox: That invokation just performs proper indentation
16:10	blr	arrdem: and you've found it generally worthwhile? (presumably using evil-mode?)
16:10	glosoli	arrdem: I wasn't around Clojure at that time, but switching to Emacs meant doing most of the stuff in it for me lol
16:11	arrdem	blr: nope I've never run evil-mode. I actually find modal gets in my way and that keychords are nice. personal perfference.
16:11	arrdem	blr: I totally use vim when I need to change users and work in a terminal, but Emacs is my IDE
16:11	blr	ah ok, I'm not sure I can ever part from modal editing.. kind of like a brain lesion.
16:12	arrdem	it's really cool when I :wq in an Elisp file and Emacs bitches "Could not evaluate symbol wq"
16:12	glosoli	blr: I had problems with nREPL buffer when I used evil mode, it jumped cursor in some weird way
16:16	technomancy	llasram: re the "Batman is very much a child’s fantasy" conversation from the conj: http://comicsalliance.com/ask-chris-96-why-spider-man-is-the-best-character-ever-yes/
16:16	blr	wonder if anyone has been working on codemirror's vim support...
16:17	bitemyapp	working on codemirror means writing JS. Tough sell.
16:19	pbostrom	blr: I use evil-mode, I was never a VIM power user but I like VIM's modal editing and motions too much
16:19	solidus_	nrepl is still being developed or now CIDER has completely replaced it?
16:20	glosoli	solidus_: they renamed project
16:20	glosoli	:)
16:20	solidus_	btw anyone used lightable or managed to get emacs shortcuts to work there?
16:21	coventry	solidus_: I would stick with nrepl for now (vs cider. No opinion on LT.)
16:21	glosoli	solidus_: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/light-table-discussion/KE-qSBjfRxA/lgC5l3ykjGcJ
16:21	blr	solidus_: the editor that lighttable uses (codemirror) will have emacs bindings, but if it's anything like the vim support will be woefully incomplete
16:23	solidus_	coventry: why do your prefer nrepl?
16:23	glosoli	solidus_: More stable :)
16:23	coventry	solidus_: What glosoli said.
16:24	coventry	solidus_: Until there are new features I want in cider, I don't see the upside. https://github.com/clojure-emacs/cider/issues
16:24	TimMc	reply -> nrepl -> cider?
16:25	TimMc	Or is cider just the new name for the Emacs side of things?
16:25	glosoli	emacs side of things
16:25	coventry	TimMc: Yep.
16:25	dnolen	nice https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6757031
16:27	blr	dnolen: I'm maintaining a large angular project now and it is getting hairy
16:28	teslanick	blr: Anything specific to look out for? I've been advocating moving a big app toward Angular
16:29	dnolen	blr: I don't think it's actually and either/or thing, CLJS + Angular.js seems like a combination people like
16:29	coventry	lazybot's findfn should try permuting the arguments if it comes up empty the first time.
16:30	Raynes	http://github.com/Raynes/findfn
16:30	Raynes	On one hand that pull request would be mighty useful. On the other, findfn is already amazingly slow.
16:30	Raynes	But hey, if you're in it you might as well be in it for the long hall.
16:30	Raynes	haul*
16:31	Raynes	Or a long hall. Doesn't matter to me. Whatever you're into.
16:31	blr	dnolen: you don't find that clojure and MVC are at odds with eachother? Have been investingating frp approaches as an alternative, but it requires a fairly major shift in thinking
16:32	blr	teslanick: angular is just very agnostic about how you structure your project, you just have to be disciplied about reuse through directives and make sure you're putting logic in services rather than controllers... nothing specific to angular
16:33	upwardindex	Recommendation for a notification library that is a pleasure to use from clojurescript?
16:33	TimMc	&(keep :foo [{:bar 6} {:foo 7} {} {:foo 9}])
16:33	lazybot	⇒ (7 9)
16:34	dnolen	blr: not saying CLJS+Angular.js is something I would personally use, I think CLJS offers some cool opportunities to rethink how client side apps are done, but this will take some time to shake out.
16:34	dnolen	upwardindex: core.async?
16:34	coventry	Raynes: You're right, if it's doing that it should send periodic messages back so you know it's not just that it's died. And because that's potentially a lot of spam, it should probably only do that when it's /msg'ing, not when it's broadcasting to the channel.
16:34	upwardindex	dnolen: I mean growl type of thing
16:34	logic_prog	what is the inverse of .getBytes? (I have taken a string, encoded it with .getBytes, stuffed it in a db, read it back out, now I need to convert it back to a string)
16:35	Raynes	(String. (.getBytes "foo"))
16:35	dnolen	upwardindex: oh not that I know of, shouldn't be too hard to leverage a JS lib if one exists.
16:35	Raynes	&(String. (.getBytes "foo"))
16:35	lazybot	⇒ "foo"
16:35	Raynes	logic_prog: ^
16:35	logic_prog	Raynes: exactly what I needed. Thanks!
16:36	upwardindex	dnolen: there are tens of libraries luckily
16:36	Raynes	logic_prog: Keep in mind that this uses the default charset. You can specify another if necessary.
16:36	blr	upwardindex: https://github.com/CodeSeven/toastr seems popular (haven't used it myself)
16:37	teslanick	&(-> "foo" .getBytes String.)
16:37	lazybot	⇒ "foo"
16:37	teslanick	Raynes: wouldn't that be easier to read?
16:37	upwardindex	blr: that is a pretty one!
16:38	Raynes	teslanick: Not really, no.
16:38	Raynes	In larger, more complex examples, sure.
16:43	stompyj	Is there an IRC channel for caribou / Are there any caribou users/authors in here?
16:44	coventry	stompyj: justin_smith is affiliated with caribou.
16:47	stompyj	coventry: thanks!
16:48	gfredericks	hyPiRion: I would like to browse large data structures by having some top-level stuff shown, and being able to expand
16:48	gfredericks	like a tree, yunno
16:48	gfredericks	if a map has lots of keys, only show a few of them
16:48	stompyj	trying to decide if it's worth using as purely a REST API
16:48	hyPiRion	hmm, okay
16:48	stompyj	it seems like that's not it's intended use case, but it also seems like it may work that way
16:49	TimMc	gfredericks, hyPiRion: Further request: Interactively map different functions across certain parts of the tree.
16:50	gtrak	anyone have an idea how to tune lein for a smaller heap? -server just gets out of hand once I get past a few project repls.
16:50	gfredericks	TimMc: oh dang now we're getting advanced
16:50	technomancy	gtrak: -server is a no-op
16:50	technomancy	unless you have a 32-bit JDK
16:50	gfredericks	hyPiRion: in particular it should work without sending all the data back to emacs
16:50	gtrak	technomancy: right, I mean the implicit -server that's run on a 64-bit box.
16:51	TimMc	E.g. "Run #(String. %) on all the byte arrays" or perhaps on certain paths.
16:51	hyPiRion	gfredericks: sending or printing?
16:51	technomancy	gtrak: you mean beyond -Xmx?
16:51	Raynes	cemerick: "(is-this-element-in-this-collection? nil [1 2 nil]) ; And no, the (some #{x} coll) hack doesn't work for nil" is one of the responses for missing Clojure features.
16:51	gfredericks	hyPiRion: sending; e.g., a 20GB data structure
16:51	gfredericks	so it has to maintain a reference to the data back in the jvm process
16:51	Raynes	cemerick: If you ever find out who that was by some miracle of fate, tell them about (some nil? coll)
16:52	TimMc	It would also be nice to e.g. show the first element of each collection by default (down to a certain depth).
16:52	gtrak	technomancy: I can limit the heap, but looking at jvisualVM it seems like it's just keeping a massive heap allocated and not using all of it, I'd like for the max to grow down dynamically instead of relying on OS paging.
16:52	gtrak	the heaps get thrown into swap eventually, is what I mean, I'd like to avoid the swap.
16:52	hyPiRion	TimMc: print-depth and print-length can already do that to some extent, no?
16:53	enquora	can anyone point to sample code using core.async to manage simultaneous network requests and local persistence to disk? Just finished debugging a viper's nest of callbacks in a javascript implementation of CouchDB - both network access and local persistence use asynchronous apis. Need to get my head around doing this in a some fashion that clearly exposes intent in code. Alternative seems to be a formal statechart/statemachine
16:53	cemerick	Raynes: heh, sure; though, (some nil? ...) doesn't help if you want to generically check for some value in a sequential, and don't know the type or nil-ness of that value
16:53	technomancy	gtrak: I know stuff like certain IO buffers are allocated off the main heap; native libs can allocate there as well
16:53	egosum	did clojuredocs.org get abandoned?
16:54	egosum	And does anyone know/can anyone guess why? And is there a replacement?
16:54	bitemyapp	egosum: yes
16:54	bitemyapp	egosum: I'm considering starting a wiki.
16:54	gtrak	I'll play with it :-), thanks
16:54	gfredericks	bitemyapp: who owns it? not interested in transferrinc?
16:54	bitemyapp	egosum: I'll do it today if I can get at least one person to commit to helping me make content for it.
16:54	bitemyapp	gfredericks: zachary kim. I don't know.
16:54	hyPiRion	cemerick: (some #(= % my-value) ...) does work though
16:55	bitemyapp	I'm rather envious of Haskell.org and EmacsWiki.
16:55	hyPiRion	That was probably to Raynes as well
16:55	technomancy	gfredericks: they've been looking for someone to help for like two and a half years or something
16:55	technomancy	no one ever does
16:55	technomancy	the circle of rage continues
16:55	egosum	technomancy: what sort of help? and who?
16:55	gfredericks	okay so it's not abandoned by somebody, it's abandoned by allo f us?
16:55	bitemyapp	technomancy: nobody wants to work on a Rails app.
16:55	Raynes	hyPiRion: nil?
16:55	technomancy	gfredericks: exactly
16:55	bitemyapp	technomancy: and they have a team that is supposed to be working on it, but hasn't.
16:55	Raynes	&(some nil? [1 2 nil 3 4])
16:55	lazybot	⇒ true
16:55	gfredericks	oh it's a rails app
16:55	Raynes	&(some nil? [1 2 3 4])
16:55	lazybot	⇒ nil
16:55	bitemyapp	gfredericks: they started a team to maintain it but the team didn't do anything
16:56	bitemyapp	gfredericks: the team said they had it in hand and that we didn't need to do anything.
16:56	cemerick	hyPiRion: true, true; perhaps not obvious tho
16:56	bitemyapp	so it's not entirely on us.
16:56	technomancy	bitemyapp: everything's done except the html front-end, which no one on the team is qualified to write
16:57	technomancy	egosum: https://github.com/clojuredocs/web
16:57	bitemyapp	technomancy: link it in the channel so people can see what we're talking about, please.
16:57	cemerick	I love how the survey always manages to spur the vitriol here :-P
16:57	bitemyapp	yes.
16:57	gtrak	technomancy: this looks like what I want: -XX:+UseAdaptiveSizePolicy 'if both the pause time goal and the throughput goal are being met, then the size of the generations are decreased to reduce footprint'
16:57	bitemyapp	sigh, that's just an API.
16:57	technomancy	cemerick: you asked for opinions, you get an opinionfest =)
16:57	cemerick	mmm, so I hear
16:57	technomancy	bitemyapp: right; that's the problem. the API is done, the HTML isn't
16:58	egosum	technomancy: thank you, technomancy
16:58	bitemyapp	technomancy: it's not just HTML, it's structuring the whole site and content.
16:58	technomancy	bitemyapp: ok, sure
16:58	bitemyapp	aka, actually making the thing we actually need
16:58	bitemyapp	we didn't need an API
16:58	bitemyapp	we needed up to date content
16:58	technomancy	you can access all the data from the repl
16:59	logic_prog	[org.apache.zookeeper/zookeeper "3.4.5"]
16:59	logic_prog	fuck ... how do I installa zookeper in lein
16:59	logic_prog	lein deps Could not find artifact javax.jms:jms:jar:1.1 in central (http://repo1.maven.org/maven2/) Could not find artifact javax.jms:jms:jar:1.1 in clojars (https://clojars.org/repo/)
17:00	bitemyapp	logic_prog: maven install
17:00	logic_prog	bitemyapp: maven install -what- ?
17:00	blr	technomancy: is that todo in the README complete? doesn't mention any frontend tasks
17:00	nDuff	bitemyapp: that doesn't really help for code that isn't distributed in Maven Central for licensing reasons.
17:00	nDuff	logic_prog: you can use a :exclude for javax.jms:jms and then add a 3rd-party implementation. I think Apache has one.
17:01	technomancy	blr: «website [not started]» under Progress
17:01	logic_prog	nDuff: I'm new to maven; is there a website I can read up on ?
17:01	logic_prog	something like "how to install zookeper/clj for idiots"
17:01	nDuff	logic_prog: ...though, well, yes, you can download JMS from Sun, and then use ''mvn install'' to put that jar in your local cache.
17:02	technomancy	nDuff: you can actually do that with lein now
17:02	technomancy	needs better docs though =\
17:02	logic_prog	technomancy: please enlighten us and teach me how to install zookeeper with lein
17:02	nDuff	logic_prog: shrug. I'm at a shop where we have the Ivy packager task set up to build a package of JMS for our local repo (which we can't legally distribute on account of Oracle being unhelpful).
17:02	zilti	3
17:03	logic_prog	nduff: http://search.oracle.com/search/search?start=1&search_p_main_operator=all&q=jms <-- where do I even get jms?
17:03	technomancy	logic_prog: if you have a jar file you need, you can use `lein deploy` to get it into ~/.m2
17:03	nDuff	logic_prog: have you tried just excluding them?
17:03	technomancy	logic_prog: I have no idea how zookeeper works
17:03	blr	technomancy: ah okay. will keep an eye on it
17:03	nDuff	logic_prog: they may not be strictly necessary.
17:04	nDuff	logic_prog: ...alternately, legalities notwithstanding, it looks like it's available in https://repository.jboss.org/nexus/content/groups/public
17:04	nDuff	logic_prog: ...so you can just add that repository to your project.clj
17:04	logic_prog	nDuff: where is the docs on how to adding a repo to lein?
17:05	nDuff	logic_prog: the leiningen README links to a sample project.clj that uses every possible option.
17:05	nDuff	logic_prog: "every possible option", by its nature, includes adding extra repos.
17:05	logic_prog	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj ?
17:05	nDuff	logic_prog: nod. See :repositories
17:06	technomancy	`lein help sample`
17:07	egosum	well, i pinged #clojure-doc — I'm looking through their repos now. I don't understand why new tags/whatever they call them weren't just introduced for 1.4 and 1.5, though. Seems a shame to let the site become stale for a rewrite? Unless it was somehow necessary?
17:07	bitemyapp	egosum: clojure-doc is somebody else.
17:08	bitemyapp	pretty sure that's the clojurewerkz people not the clojuredocs API people
17:08	egosum	bitemyapp: from ://github.com/clojuredocs/web the README refers me to #clojure-doc
17:08	egosum	on freenode
17:09	bitemyapp	egosum: sigh, then that's a namespace collision.
17:09	bitemyapp	egosum: clojure-doc the website is the friggin' github wiki the clojurewerkz guys started.
17:09	bitemyapp	the offer still stands, I'll launch the wiki if I can get at least one person to commit to helping me put the content up.
17:10	egosum	bitemyapp: somehow, they're connected. That clojure-doc.org -> the same repo that hosts the web repo for clojuredocs.org
17:10	technomancy	bitemyapp: it's the same folks
17:10	egosum	So somehow clojurewerkz are involved as well
17:10	egosum	there you go
17:10	technomancy	there's just a lot of overlap
17:11	egosum	bitemyapp: I'm going to wait to hear back from them, first; if they're really just some HTML away from re-launching, I may find some time to help in the coming weeks. Though I'd love to hear why it all went dead?
17:11	bitemyapp	"just HTML"
17:12	bitemyapp	yeah good luck with that.
17:12	bitemyapp	"just HTML" yet that's the part we're stalling out on.
17:12	egosum	bitemyapp: We'll see :) I'm optimistic. Rather not reinvent the wheel, at the very least.
17:12	bitemyapp	that's not the point
17:12	bitemyapp	the API isn't enough
17:12	bitemyapp	you need community created examples underneath the raw docs themselves
17:12	bitemyapp	that means you need a wiki
17:12	bitemyapp	but if you have a wiki, integrating the API after the fact is not a big deal at all.
17:13	bitemyapp	but until the structure and ability to add community created content is in place, you don't have much to work with.
17:13	bitemyapp	I don't know why others cannot see that.
17:13	egosum	bitemyapp: i don't know what they have in mind, but what they have now on clojuredocs.org is a wiki, essentially. Right?
17:14	bitemyapp	egosum: in Rails
17:15	blr	bitemyapp: any existing resources worth looking to for inspiration? wiki.python.org?
17:15	egosum	bitemyapp: I don't have a problem with that. Rails works. Less fun, sure, but this is a CRUD app
17:15	technomancy	clojure-doc.org is basically a wiki where edits are pull requests
17:16	bitemyapp	blr: haskell.org + Haddock and EmacsWiki are stand-outs in my opinion.
17:16	bitemyapp	egosum: I have a problem with working on a rails app in a community that supposedly has good web tools.
17:16	bitemyapp	something that the Haskell community somehow sidestepped.
17:16	bitemyapp	egosum: I am not going to perpetuate the use of Rails on my free time.
17:16	bitemyapp	I'd rather suck fruit wax.
17:17	egosum	bitemyapp: Then go ahead and write one in Clojure :) I'd be happy to contribute once it looks like it's as close to working at clojuredocs.org is
17:18	blr	bitemyapp: any way you could collaborate with clojurewerkz? there's a lot of good content on clojure-doc.org
17:18	blr	the default bootstrap theme isn't doing much for me though
17:19	bitemyapp	blr: I don't like the pull request workflow and I think it discourages contributions.
17:19	gtrak	technomancy: seems like -XX:+UseG1GC is much more aggressive about releasing mem, from what I've read, that's expected.
17:19	bitemyapp	blr: I really just want something like Haskell.org or EmacsWiki.
17:19	bitemyapp	blr: I've already discussed this with them, they refuse to acknowledge how irritating it is to PR contributions to a wiki.
17:19	technomancy	gtrak: but yeah, unpredictable memory usage is a huge source of support issues for JVM users on Heroku
17:20	egosum	blr: the problem (insofar as you'd call it one) with clojure-doc is that they don't want to cover the API with it. Just use it for guides/tutorials. According to the README
17:20	bitemyapp	egosum: you're not understanding me.
17:20	bitemyapp	egosum: I'm not doing a damn thing until I get at least one person besides myself who is interested in having a wiki. Doesn't necessarily mean writing one.
17:20	danneu	I started writing a clojuredocs clone like everyone else probably has in their neglected ~/oldcode folder, and used the gist api for contributions
17:20	bitemyapp	egosum: I own clojurewiki.com, I'm just waiting.
17:20	blr	bitemyapp: are there any wiki projects in clojure atm?
17:20	blr	as in wiki softwrae
17:21	bitemyapp	blr: I've written a micro CMS in Clojure that runs bitemyapp.com
17:21	gtrak	technomancy: this bug was informative: http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=6498735 . You're probably not going to futz with it for heroku until G1 is default, but check it out :-).
17:21	bitemyapp	it could be turned into a wiki, but I don't think that's necessary.
17:21	danneu	i own... wait for it... docjure.com
17:21	bitemyapp	mediawiki + wrapper site for the API would probably be sufficient.
17:21	egosum	ah, perpetuating the use of PHP ;)
17:22	bitemyapp	there's a difference between deploying a mediawiki and hacking on a Rails app.
17:22	bitemyapp	I am not going to replicate everything mediawiki does in Rails.
17:22	bitemyapp	I'm open to writing a wiki, but my point is that you don't HAVE to write a goddamn wiki.
17:22	technomancy	I'm not going to do any significant editing in a browser
17:23	danneu	you should probably write a documentation archive in the language it's documenting
17:23	danneu	audience are people that could commit
17:24	bitemyapp	I would tend to agree.
17:24	egosum	The salient questions are "what do people want?" and "what are people looking for?". I still get people hitting my many-years-old introductions to Clojure articles, searching with general keywords like "doing IO in clojure"
17:24	blr	bitemyapp: seems like something that should be discussed with clojure core?
17:24	bitemyapp	blr: lol no.
17:24	bitemyapp	they're the last people you should talk to about documentation.
17:24	technomancy	heh
17:26	blr	just seems a pity to have people independently duplicating documentation efforts, and it's confusing for new people
17:26	egosum	blr: agreed
17:27	egosum	It would be nice to get a group of people together interested in creating a canonical wiki
17:27	technomancy	wikis are easy to create
17:27	egosum	clojure and canon don't go well together, though
17:27	technomancy	maintaining over years is far more difficult
17:28	danneu	wiki is overkill. you just want a low-barrier code-formatted comment box
17:28	danneu	for a clojuredocs clone
17:29	bitemyapp	I want a wiki.
17:29	technomancy	TBH I don't see why people don't just use it from the repl
17:29	blr	technomancy: that's not so intuitive for someone new to clojure
17:30	blr	need both ideally
17:30	technomancy	blr: people gotta learn to get over their browser-addiction same as getting over the instinct to modify arrays in-place
17:30	egosum	technomancy: blr: coming from a guy who uses lynx from tmux :P some of us like a little more GUI in our lives
17:31	blr	egosum: as a tmux user, sometimes I'm tempted myself..
17:31	egosum	blr: I use tmux, too. But god no not lynx.
17:31	egosum	Actually, you use konqueror, don't you technomancy
17:31	mtp	i use w3m and elinks
17:31	technomancy	egosum: nooooo
17:31	technomancy	egosum: conkeror!
17:31	technomancy	totally different =P
17:31	blr	hah, yeah, that's a whole different kind of techno-luddism (no offense technomancy :) )
17:31	technomancy	haha
17:32	technomancy	I just added in-emacs HTML rendering to nrepl-dicsover though
17:32	hiredman	technomancy: nice!
17:32	egosum	technomancy: seriously? that's awesome. I feel like I miss out on a lot using iterm2 instead of X
17:32	technomancy	I should add support for https://github.com/dakrone/clojuredocs-client though
17:33	bitemyapp	arrdem: what is scc/sc13?
17:33	technomancy	hiredman: I'm hoping to port Javert to it \m/
17:34	technomancy	egosum: well it's not webkit; it's basically the equivalent of w3m's renderer, but without the dependency on an external binary
17:34	arrdem	bitemyapp: http://sc13.supercomputing.org/
17:34	technomancy	perfect for an inspector though
17:34	TimMc	&((->> (?) lazy-seq (fn ? [])))
17:34	arrdem	bitemyapp: I'm on the UT team for http://sc13.supercomputing.org/content/student-cluster-competition
17:34	lazybot	Execution Timed Out!
17:35	technomancy	dakrone: would that make sense? creating M-x nrepl-cdoc that could use clojuredocs-client?
17:35	bitemyapp	technomancy: seems reasonable to me.
17:35	dakrone	technomancy: makes sense to me
17:35	technomancy	dakrone: also, does your client support submitting or just reading?
17:35	arrdem	bitemyapp: it's a high performance, power management based timed devops challenge
17:35	TimMc	&(->> ? trampoline lazy-seq (fn ? []) trampoline) ;; ah, much better
17:35	dakrone	technomancy: just reading
17:36	lazybot	Execution Timed Out!
17:36	technomancy	I wonder if I could do a clojure/west talk on nrepl and nrepl-discover
17:36	pjstadig	technomancy: yes
17:36	technomancy	gotta get the word out =D
17:37	egosum	I'm confused re: Cider v. nrepl. There's nothing on the nrepl repo pointing to cider (https://github.com/clojure-emacs/cider)
17:38	joegallo	egosum: i think you'll find that the project rename made it impossible for you to be confused
17:38	joegallo	(jk, man, i'm just messing around, you can totally ignore me)
17:38	technomancy	geez; you scraed scared him off?
17:39	joegallo	some people scrae easily
17:39	hiredman	joegallo: kings ignore jesters at their own peril
17:40	joegallo	i can't tell if you're calling me a fool or not, but the shoe fits
17:40	joegallo	:)
17:40	Glenjamin	is cider a fork or a rename?
17:40	hiredman	the big shoe :)
17:40	technomancy	Glenjamin: rename with a new maintainer
17:41	Glenjamin	oh, i thought nrepl.el was still under active dev
17:42	arrdem	bitemyapp: we have a total of a 26 amp power budget and we've got the hardware tuned so tight we're french kissing the line. suddenly there's a word of the law dispute that may totoally screw us... I'm stressed :/
17:42	Glenjamin	ah, found the issue tracker
17:42	bitemyapp	arrdem: :( good luck!
17:42	gtrak	technomancy: for comparison, notG1: http://imgur.com/C7r5hFa , G1: http://imgur.com/tuk8ilV .
17:43	technomancy	nice
17:43	gtrak	that massive cliff in the first is just unnecessary
17:44	technomancy	it is super annoying that there's no "never use more than $MAX mb of RAM" setting
17:44	gtrak	it would be inconsequential in a dedicated server setting, so I see why it's like that.
17:45	mtp	terom, what about ulimit? :p
17:45	mtp	err
17:45	mtp	technomancy*
17:45	seangrove	Ah, ffs heroku...
17:45	gtrak	technomancy: there's MaxHeapFreeRatio and MinHeapFreeRatio, I was going to try that, but just flipping on G1 worked well enough.
17:46	gtrak	'-XX:MaxHeapFreeRatio=70, Maximum percentage of heap free after GC to avoid shrinking.'
17:46	seangrove	Addon got removed, but I never got an email, whole site is busted, didn't get an email because I don't have the original domain I signed up with years ago, can't update my email because I have to confirm an email from the original email
17:47	technomancy	mtp: is that visible from inside the affected process?
17:47	seangrove	Gave up on it before out of frustration, and now it has come back to haunt me.
17:48	mtp	technomancy, there are syscalls to get it, so "not sure" :)
17:48	technomancy	seangrove: for clojars what we did when the original email account was locked was make a request signed with the SSH key we have on file
17:49	technomancy	(I only recently learned that you could do that with SSH)
17:50	seangrove	technomancy: ... to the heroku api?
17:50	technomancy	seangrove: no, in a manual support request
17:50	seangrove	Or are you talking about the design of clojars specifically,?
17:51	seangrove	Ah, ok
17:51	seangrove	That's a nice idea. I'll see if I can open another security ticket and get it taken care of this time.
17:51	seangrove	Err, suport ticket*
17:51	seangrove	"The cloud is great, as long as it doesn't fall out from underneath you."
17:53	Glenjamin	was there an announcement about the nrepl.el->cider thing on the clojure mailing list? i don't remember seeing anything
17:54	technomancy	no idea; still using nrepl.el
17:54	technomancy	works great
17:55	Glenjamin	mm, fair enough
17:55	Glenjamin	btw technomancy, someone told me you had a hack that would allow loading multiple versions of a dependency into the same app - was that heresay, or is there some code floating around somewhere i could poke at?
17:56	technomancy	Glenjamin: it's basically a proof-of-concept https://github.com/technomancy/metaverse
17:56	technomancy	2-hour hack night project; do not use; feel free to read
17:56	Glenjamin	mm, it's an idea i'm very keen on
17:56	Glenjamin	i claim it's best, if not only reason to use node.js
17:56	technomancy	I don't think it's a good idea actually
17:57	Glenjamin	in java-land, or in general?
17:57	technomancy	if you want something like that it's almost surely a sign that your codebase is too big
17:57	Glenjamin	it's the dependency hell problem
17:57	technomancy	so that's like taking painkillers to "solve" a broken leg
17:57	Glenjamin	if i include a library in my library, consumers shouldn't have to care
17:57	Glenjamin	B depends on utilA-1.0, C depends on utilA-2.0
17:57	Glenjamin	now D can't use B and C
17:58	seangrove	Glenjamin: But loading them both doesn't help...
17:58	Glenjamin	seangrove: unless you could keep them separated
17:59	technomancy	it's easy to do with clojure namespaces for the most part, but as soon as you involve classes it gets hard
17:59	seangrove	Glenjamin: I suppose, sounds like a time bomb
17:59	Glenjamin	so B gets what it wants, and C gets what it wants, and unless you expose types over public interfaces you're fine
17:59	Glenjamin	which is where it falls down, of course
17:59	technomancy	in practice incompatibility usually comes from underlying java libs
17:59	Glenjamin	mm
18:00	Glenjamin	but java peeps have gotten used to not using small dependencies
18:00	Glenjamin	i think it would be a shame for clojure to have to follow that path
18:00	Glenjamin	"just copy that fn from the source into you app" shouldn't be the accepted solution in 2013 :)
18:01	technomancy	clojure is still small enough that you can shame authors of misbehaving libs into compliance though; it's great
18:01	Glenjamin	yeah, but that doesn't scale
18:01	gtrak	Glenjamin: seen codec? it's a start.
18:01	gtrak	codeq, excuse me
18:02	Glenjamin	thats an interesting way of thinking about it
18:02	Glenjamin	i'm familiar with the concept of codeq, but not played with it properly
18:02	technomancy	yeah, when clojure gets too big for that to work you gotta find another niche
18:02	technomancy	factor, ocaml, elixir, etc =)
18:02	seangrove	hah
18:02	Glenjamin	basically, I'm convinced that the node.js approach to dependency loading is onto something - and in theory clojure's namespaces would support the same model
18:03	Glenjamin	but as you say, java complicates things
18:03	seangrove	Could be a good troll talk. "If the language is soo large I can't personally shame a library author into doing the right thing, I don't want to use it."
18:03	gtrak	my dream someday :-). clojure-in-clojure -> environment-as-a-value -> distributed-versioned-repls
18:04	Glenjamin	but yeah, i don't want to live in a world where "this project has no dependencies" is a plus point
18:04	bitemyapp	gtrak: environment is a value already in Haskell
18:04	bitemyapp	gtrak: monads gg.
18:04	gtrak	bitemyapp: hmmmmmm
18:04	Glenjamin	because for any non-trivial project, that either means you did lots of copy-pasting, or you reinvented a bunch of wheels
18:04	bitemyapp	Glenjamin: sometimes yes, sometimes no.
18:05	bitemyapp	the only dependencies brambling has are datomic-pro, clj-time, and clojure itself.
18:05	bitemyapp	that's probably my lowest-number-of-dependencies library.
18:05	bitemyapp	there are some datomic wrapper utils that could get split out, but I don't have enough of them to bother yet.
18:06	Raynes	It's like he knows I'm waiting... watching...
18:06	technomancy	Raynes: it wasn't in the most flattering context
18:06	Raynes	It wasn't a horrible contxt.
18:06	Raynes	context*
18:06	Raynes	One day I'm gonna get used to the keyboard on this macbook, bitemyapp.
18:07	bitemyapp	the fuck did I do?
18:07	bitemyapp	oh right
18:07	bitemyapp	technically that is my fault.
18:07	Raynes	It makes no sense. The keyboard on a macbook air is the exact same size as the one on the macbook pro, right?
18:07	bitemyapp	I don't know.
18:07	blr	Raynes: he didn't compare it to ruby at least
18:07	bitemyapp	I own both and have no idea.
18:07	Glenjamin	bitemyapp: it seems fairly well factored to me - although there's some scary reduce calls in there!
18:07	Raynes	blr: Not much beyond syntax that you can reasonably compare with Ruby.
18:07	bitemyapp	blr: Ruby isn't a niche, it's a fuckpit of hate fueled by money and self-aggrandizement.
18:07	dnolen	Glenjamin: I for one hate the depend everything style of Ruby & Node that I've seen at the lib level, and it's annoying when you see it in Clojure outside of applications, and even there it's easy to get out of hand.
18:07	Raynes	Well, I'm staying out of that one. :P
18:08	blr	uh oh, looks like I used someone's trigger word
18:08	Glenjamin	dnolen: what is it you dislike about it?
18:08	arrdem	bitemyapp: okay... I think we're gonna be OK.
18:08	bitemyapp	Glenjamin: actually yeah, I would love feedback on brambling.
18:08	dnolen	Glenjamin: random crap
18:08	bitemyapp	Glenjamin: I take the "scary reduce" as a badge of honor tho :)
18:08	srruby	Is this idiomatic clojure? https://gist.github.com/anonymous/7537032 I use defonce to avoid loading a resource until the method is called.
18:08	hansengel	Hi all -- I have a patch I'd like to contribute to Clojure core re: an issue
18:08	hansengel	on JIRA. Is this the right place to ask if it's sane and OK? :)
18:08	bitemyapp	srruby: oh my god no don't
18:08	bitemyapp	srruby: never def inside a function
18:08	bitemyapp	srruby: don't nest defs
18:08	bitemyapp	god no ick ugh vomit no.
18:09	arrdem	hansengel: do you have a clojure CA?
18:09	technomancy	bitemyapp: just breathe
18:09	arrdem	hansengel: we'll do a code review for sure, but clojure core can't take it until you've submitted a CA
18:09	bitemyapp	srruby: (def hyphenator (memoize (fn [] ...body of thing here...)))
18:09	hansengel	arrdem: OK, I was going to mail one today.
18:09	srruby	bitemyapp: Thanks!!
18:09	seangrove	I blame korma and my own initial designs though
18:10	hansengel	This is a super tiny fix, but I'm not sure I've done it in the right place
18:10	Glenjamin	dnolen: anything specific? I have a theory that most issues come down to having to deal with dependency hell - which tooling can solve - i'm interesting in discussing more widely
18:10	bitemyapp	srruby: at the top-level, not nested :\|
18:10	hansengel	re: this ticket http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1282
18:10	bitemyapp	for the record, Korma's not my fault either.
18:10	hansengel	my fix: http://pastebin.com/d9JndGJn
18:10	hansengel	I'm a bit wary about changing something so general sounding as "ConstantExpr," though
18:11	hansengel	I'm still new to the Clojure core code ;)
18:11	hansengel	Adding tests now, by the way
18:11	technomancy	hansengel: technically your patch is under the threshold of copyright in the US, but you still have to assign "copyright" on it for some reason before anyone on the core team will speak to you about it
18:12	dnolen	Glenjamin: what I mean is I don't see value in that approach other than making the dependency graph look ridiculous. I prefer to be relatively familiar w/ the dependencies in a project.
18:13	hansengel	technomancy: Hmm, okay, is there a standard way to do that?
18:13	Glenjamin	dnolen: from my pov, you either need dependencies, or you need to write them yourself. Splitting out into modules and putting docs and tests on each one means you shouldn't have to touch them much once they're stable
18:13	technomancy	hansengel: yes, but you're not gonna like it
18:13	technomancy	it involves a printer, stamps, and lots of waiting
18:13	Glenjamin	if the modules are all small, then stitching them together and sanity-checking them should be less effort than re-creating from scratch
18:14	hansengel	technomancy: I see, ha.. so I really can't get anywhere without the CA then.
18:14	gtrak	sometimes a project's dependencies are just massive, and the cost of futzing with adding another is less than the time it takes to split the project and create an IPC layer.
18:14	seangrove	Glenjamin: Using data helps avoid many versioning problems
18:14	seangrove	Not all, but some
18:14	dnolen	Glenjamin: except in the latter I have to contact the dev to fix or monkey patch. In the former I can fix.
18:14	dnolen	small dependencies just means more hell
18:14	dnolen	not under my own control
18:14	technomancy	hansengel: yeah, it's a pain.
18:15	Glenjamin	thats why we have forks and things, the tooling should enable us to break out clean dependencies
18:15	seangrove	technomancy: hansengel My CA took ~48 hours to be processed
18:15	dnolen	Glenjamin: yeah I agree w/ basically nothing you are saying
18:15	Glenjamin	fair enough
18:15	technomancy	seangrove: sure, but that's just step 1. now you have to fight Jira
18:15	seangrove	Wasn't bad at all, I regret moaning about it as much as I did
18:15	dnolen	if I have to maintain a fork for 100 lines of code ... what the hell do I need a module for
18:15	gtrak	the project I'm working on has 174 entries in lein deps :tree
18:16	dnolen	I'll just write that myself
18:16	seangrove	technomancy: Also not too upset with JIRA these days. I just do the basics, and let dnolen handle the rest of the pain.
18:16	Glenjamin	dnolen: because your module has tests, docs and a clean separation from the rest of your code. its impossible to couple to your app
18:16	hansengel	OK, thanks seangrove, technomancy, arrdem. I'll be back in a few days then :)
18:16	technomancy	seangrove: that doesn't scale =)
18:17	seangrove	technomancy: Are you sure? dnolen seems to be indefatigueable.
18:17	danneu	i thought clojure handled DependencyA leaning on bouncycastle1.7 and your app pulling in bouncycastle1.8.
18:18	Glenjamin	it tells you it might not work
18:18	technomancy	seangrove: dunno; rewriting small libs to avoid growing a dependency tree sounds tiring =)
18:18	Glenjamin	or rather, lein does
18:18	seangrove	technomancy: I figure if we have him, you, cemerick, and maybe two others, there's no immediate concern for scaling bottlenecks :)
18:18	technomancy	seangrove: I just send cemerick actual pull requests; he looks the other way and keeps me out of trouble.
18:18	seangrove	Hahahahahaha
18:19	seangrove	technomancy: Well, you are listed here after all http://clojure.org/contributing
18:19	Glenjamin	anyway, i'd like to see more people discussing whether it's actually a problem, or if just-write-it-yourself actually is a better solution
18:19	technomancy	Claiming Copyright Ownership of Submitted Patches as a Service
18:19	technomancy	seangrove: yeah, but I got dumped off the clojure-dev mailing list for some reason
18:20	technomancy	possibly my own fault; google groups UI is terrible
18:20	bitemyapp	it damages the community when people don't use and improve each others' libraries.
18:20	seangrove	technomancy: Before or after everyone unanimously voted for ops for you?
18:20	Glenjamin	(inc bitemyapp)
18:20	lazybot	⇒ 13
18:20	seangrove	You're not exactly an unknown figure...
18:20	technomancy	seangrove: I think it was before
18:20	seangrove	I imagine cemerick might have more reservations about looking the other way if pr's came from less savory sources
18:21	technomancy	I send in the CA when I was young and starry-eyed; back when Rich promised to switch to github.
18:21	bitemyapp	seangrove: you're the one that has "unsavory" in his profile, not me.
18:21	arrdem	bitemyapp: well played
18:21	Glenjamin	bitemyapp: on brambling, i'm only broadly familiar with datomic - but i really can't figure out what groupings->temp-ids does
18:21	technomancy	bitemyapp: well I have "bumbling" in mine, does that count
18:21	seangrove	bitemyapp: You're tainted by association, I'm afraid.
18:22	bitemyapp	seangrove: I'm pretty sure my intolerance speaks for itself.
18:22	bitemyapp	Glenjamin: you can't directly transact primary keys from one database into another
18:22	pmde	hi clojure people. I have a function that i need to call for each item in a list, but once after the other, each one after the one before has completed. the function is all side effects... and i want a timeout... i was thinking of using agents.. is that a good idea? or could i just use map? thanks
18:22	bitemyapp	Glenjamin: you have to use a temporary id intermediary. So everytime you see primary key "2" in the old database, I replace it with the mapped-to temp id
18:22	bitemyapp	I group the datoms by the entity id (primary key) in the datom vector.
18:23	bitemyapp	hence the name groupings
18:23	seangrove	technomancy: Didn't you say you had replaced the built-in nrepl-greetings?
18:23	bitemyapp	Glenjamin: I then reduce the association of primary key to a newly created temp id if one wasn't already created, then I map the datoms over to the tempid in the transaction.
18:23	technomancy	seangrove: absolutely http://p.hagelb.org/nrepl-words.el.html
18:24	seangrove	Oh man, that's lovely
18:24	technomancy	it brightens my day every time
18:24	seangrove	That's what I was thinking
18:24	bitemyapp	Glenjamin: So [:db/add 1 :muh-attr :muh-data] turns into [:db/add (d/tempid whatever) :muh-attr :muh-data]
18:24	bitemyapp	Glenjamin: then the whole translated transaction gets reduced through the mappers.
18:24	bitemyapp	it's per transaction translation, no transaction folding
18:25	bitemyapp	I'm working on incremental processing and transaction pipelining atm
18:25	clojurebot	excusez-moi
18:25	technomancy	holy smokes; cider became a lot of files
18:25	bitemyapp	`cbp: oh god why did I write a datomic migration library
18:25	bitemyapp	`cbp: don't let me do this again
18:25	`cbp	bitemyapp: what happened
18:25	Glenjamin	i'd suggest adding some of what you just said into these doc-strings :)
18:26	bitemyapp	`cbp: making brambling incremental and pipelining the transactions, rewriting a reduce in terms of lazy-seq.
18:26	bitemyapp	possibly^H^H^H^H^Hdefinitely losing my sanity.
18:26	bitemyapp	getting results from my functions that don't make any fucking sense.
18:27	technomancy	nice https://github.com/clojure-emacs/cider/pull/415
18:27	seangrove	Documentation for cider-words-of-inspiration: "Scientifically-proven optimal words of hackerish encouragement."
18:28	danneu	datomic is awesome. every day i use it, i get better at actually thinking of the db as a val i can just pass into a plain ol function.
18:28	technomancy	seangrove: I could do without the quotations
18:28	seangrove	technomancy: heh, "fellow hacker"
18:28	`cbp	bitemyapp: here here
18:28	bitemyapp	danneu: are you volunteering to work on brambling? :P
18:28	seangrove	technomancy: Was a direct quotation
18:29	`cbp	bitemyapp: After some soul searching ive decided to do a heckle in clj. You have been warned
18:29	bitemyapp	`cbp: HAHAHAHAHA
18:29	bitemyapp	`cbp: we can go to the looney bin together.
18:29	bitemyapp	I will shanghai the next person that says they love Datomic into working on Brambling just to see how much they love Datomic afterward :P
18:29	Glenjamin	i wonder if opt-in sandboxed dependency versions with a slightly different (ns) incantation would be more palatable
18:29	bitemyapp	`cbp: I will buy you multiple pizzas if you push a working version of it to clojars.
18:30	seangrove	technomancy: I would have liked adventurer more than "fellow hacker", I thought that was more in the spirit of things
18:30	Morgawr	I have a legal-ish question, can I put the clojure logo a website of an application/program/library powered by clojure?
18:30	`cbp	that's cheap. They sell 3 for the price of 1 here
18:30	bitemyapp	Morgawr: didn't stop rethinkdb
18:30	bitemyapp	`cbp: well design your own reward.
18:30	bitemyapp	either way, it's something I've wanted.
18:31	`cbp	:-)
18:31	Morgawr	I don't see the clojure logo on http://www.rethinkdb.com/
18:32	Glenjamin	oh wait, thats what this does - (ns-)
18:34	`cbp	Morgawr: It's supposed to be here but it's apparently broken: http://www.rethinkdb.com/docs/install-drivers/
18:34	danneu	speaking of db, fleetdb.org expired 10/31/2013
18:35	Morgawr	`cbp: I see... I guess I can put it up there and if there are problems I can take it down
18:35	srruby	Is rethinkdb well regarded? I know couchdb.
18:35	egosum	joegallo: hah, sorry about leaving; library shut off the wifi
18:36	bitemyapp	Morgawr: they were on there, but the icon is broken, hold on.
18:38	technomancy	Glenjamin: yeah that's the premise of metaverse
18:38	Glenjamin	there's some dark magic going on here, but the surface area is smaller than i'd have expected
18:39	devinus	where's my (def newsletter) ?
18:39	technomancy	Glenjamin: part of that was because I was too busy cackling with glee at the fact that it actually sorta worked to clean it up
18:39	technomancy	also it was a seajure hack-night project
18:39	Glenjamin	yeah, i can pretty much see how it fits together
18:40	dsrx	bitemyapp: rethinkdb isn't powered by clojure...
18:40	bitemyapp	I didn't say it was.
18:40	bitemyapp	I said they had no problem using the logo.
18:41	bitemyapp	I think as long as you're using the logo to refer to something actually to do with Clojure itself, there's no problem.
18:41	bitemyapp	If you try to appropriate it for something that isn't Clojure, there's a problem.
18:41	bitemyapp	basic trademark, AFAIK
18:41	Glenjamin	it's a shame you have to duplicate the file-parsing and line numbering bit
18:41	Glenjamin	but again, there's no much to it
18:41	Morgawr	yeah I read Rich saying that the logo should only be used to refer to Clojure as the language
18:42	Morgawr	I'll just say "powered by Clojure" and it will link to the clojure website so I guess it's not a problem, if it is then I'll remove it
18:42	technomancy	I believe most objectionable uses are around derivatives of the logo
18:43	technomancy	but if you include the logo in your codebase it won't be DFSG-compliant
18:43	Glenjamin	i was thinking potentially allowing something like (ns my-app (:require [stuff :as usual]) (:versioned [lib :as other])) might be interesting
18:43	technomancy	which I know everyone would regard as the greatest of tragedies
18:44	technomancy	Glenjamin: ns is fairly resistant to hacking
18:44	seangrove	technomancy: diamond state financial group?
18:44	bitemyapp	Glenjamin: added docstring to groupings->tempids per your recommendation. Thanks.
18:44	Glenjamin	hrm, with a different macro then - but opting in to versioned/sandboxed instead of chomping all the requires might actually get some traction
18:45	technomancy	seangrove: debian free software guidelines, the only rule of righteousness for the pure in heart
18:45	Glenjamin	PHP had to remove doug crockford's JSON parser - JSON says "do no evil", PHP says "do what you want" => licence incompatibility
18:45	technomancy	it really is a shame ns doesn't allow fully-qualified clauses
18:46	technomancy	Glenjamin: short jump from that to "php is evil"
18:46	Glenjamin	heh, sadly true
18:46	technomancy	I'm sure it could be proven with core.logic
18:46	Glenjamin	i think for a certain class of libs, it'd be easy to convince people to sandbox - utility-belts spring to mind
18:46	bitemyapp	Glenjamin: what?
18:46	technomancy	Glenjamin: please read up on http://nixos.org before continuing =)
18:47	bitemyapp	Glenjamin: sandbox?
18:47	Glenjamin	technomancy: this sounds interesting
18:47	technomancy	it's beautiful
18:48	bitemyapp	Glenjamin: I've seen people use nixos with docker.
18:48	bitemyapp	pretty cute.
18:48	technomancy	anyway, it can be done without convinging authors to opt in
18:48	gfredericks	technomancy: have you used nixos yet?
18:48	Glenjamin	bitemyapp: my cannonical example is B depends on utilA-1.0, C depends on utilA-2.0, now D can't use B and C
18:48	Glenjamin	this problem is solvable with software
18:48	bitemyapp	Glenjamin: well yeah, ideally each library operates in its own little universe.
18:48	technomancy	gfredericks: no, I've only used nix from debian
18:48	Glenjamin	but requires stepping away from java classloader land
18:49	nDuff	hrm.
18:49	Glenjamin	as much as people love to hate on nodejs, this works amazingly surprisingly well: http://nodejs.org/api/modules.html#modules_all_together
18:50	technomancy	(ns my.lib (:require [clojure.set :as set]) (:my.tool/versioned-require [conflicting.lib1] [conflicting.lib2])) ; <- I would love if ns supported this
18:51	technomancy	right now clauses are hard-coded to clojure.core
18:51	gtrak	this is like multiple-inheritance, why not look to C++ for advice? /ducks
18:51	seangrove	I'm not particularly excited by much the node.js world does. It seems to work more or less though, so that's good for them.
18:51	technomancy	seangrove: modules as first-class maps is absolutely the right choice though
18:51	technomancy	namespaces are weird bash-in-place things
18:51	nDuff	hugod: I see you've done some related work with clasm; could I ask your advice re: tooling on the inverse (decompilation) side of the spectrum?
18:52	Glenjamin	seangrove: i have no itention of trying to sell any other aspects here, but sandboxed versioned module loading is truly awesome
18:52	hiredman	technomancy: there is nothing stopping you from using your own module system instead of clojure's namespaces
18:53	technomancy	hiredman: sorta. the ns macro is hard-coded in a bunch of places and it's difficult to replace.
18:53	Glenjamin	technomancy: how would multiverse get loaded? don't you need to start with a (ns) before you can (ns-) ?
18:53	hiredman	technomancy: then don't use it?
18:54	technomancy	Glenjamin: that's basically what I'm complaining about =)
18:54	technomancy	hiredman: it's very difficult to bootstrap an alternative sanely
18:54	Glenjamin	i suppose in theory all it does is set ns and call out to require, import etc?
18:55	hiredman	technomancy: metaverse is cute, but not very useful as is, so lamenting the inabaility to extend ns to use it is kind of silly
18:55	technomancy	hiredman: sure, but ns+ has :like, which is way useful
18:55	lemonodor	Glenjamin: i am totally with you on the node approach to dependencies. it's wonderful when you can do it.
18:56	dsrx	i'm really impressed btw that everyone in clojure seems to have rallied around something like leiningen from the get-go :)
18:56	technomancy	http://p.hagelb.org/qualified-ns-clauses.html <- yes please
18:56	dsrx	or well, at least relatively early on in the language
18:56	hiredman	technomancy: shrug
18:56	dsrx	it's nice that the tooling is more or less consistent across every clojure project
18:56	technomancy	hiredman: are you guys still using :like?
18:56	hiredman	technomancy: we never did really
18:56	technomancy	I totally did
18:57	hiredman	technomancy: we had a hack in user.clj to enable it, and we had 1-2 example ns's to target with :like, but it never was used, so I think it is gone now
18:58	technomancy	sadface
18:58	technomancy	I wonder how loudly core would object if I submitted that ~25-byte change
18:58	hiredman	shrug
18:58	technomancy	power to the people!
18:58	gfredericks	technomancy: I can't figure out what it does
18:58	Glenjamin	it doesn't seem like it particularly has any/many downsides
18:58	technomancy	the ns macro is not very egalitarian
18:58	Glenjamin	it allows user-space extensions to ns
18:59	technomancy	gfredericks: (ns my.lib (:println [hello.world])) is a thing that works
18:59	gfredericks	riiight
18:59	gfredericks	got it
18:59	technomancy	gfredericks: but it's hard-coded to only resolve from clojure.core
18:59	hiredman	technomancy: if you do that, then you introduce load order problems
18:59	gfredericks	count me in
18:59	technomancy	which is a form of oppression
18:59	gfredericks	oh coutn me out
18:59	danneu	what's the max yall are willing to wait for your autotest feedback loop every time you file-save? 1 sec? 3 sec? 15 min?
18:59	technomancy	hiredman: no more than regular require
18:59	gfredericks	oh count me in
18:59	hiredman	technomancy: given the ns form as is now, everything it needs is loaded by clojure.core, so any other clojure namespace that uses ns can be loaded, because it knows how to load everything
19:00	danneu	because i'm about to perf optimize my tests
19:00	technomancy	hiredman: right; the patch needs to do a bit more to require the clause-containing ns
19:00	Glenjamin	danneu: <1 sec is proper autotest
19:00	hiredman	technomancy: with that change if a namespace uses it's own require, you cannot load it unless the definition of that require has been loaded
19:00	hiredman	feh
19:01	technomancy	hiredman: of course
19:01	technomancy	you can't have circular dependencies
19:01	hiredman	technomancy: I didn't say anything about circular dependencies
19:02	Glenjamin	you require the defining namespace be loaded before any utilising namespaces
19:02	Glenjamin	but anyone opting into using this functionality could handle that?
19:02	hiredman	technomancy: use/import/require lived a life before ns, and proved their utility to be added in to ns, what else do you have that has done that?
19:02	technomancy	http://p.hagelb.org/egalitarian-ns.html
19:03	hiredman	technomancy: are you using a custom require all over the place that you want to move in to ns?
19:03	technomancy	hiredman: I'm not using :like solely because I can't use it sanely
19:03	technomancy	I would use the heck out of it if it weren't for the wacky bootstrapping issues
19:03	hiredman	technomancy: there is nothing stopping you from having like outside of ns
19:03	Glenjamin	what's the cost of this extension point?
19:04	hiredman	(like 'some.ns)
19:04	technomancy	Glenjamin: 10-20 hours of arguing on the internet
19:04	Glenjamin	heh
19:04	technomancy	hiredman: this offends my aesthetic sensibilities
19:04	hiredman	technomancy: shrug
19:05	hiredman	technomancy: if custom forms like that proliferate, then I think you could make a case for making ns extendable
19:05	hiredman	but they haven't and they don't
19:05	bitemyapp	technomancy for Dictator!
19:05	hiredman	why make a change that only exists for aesthetics? what is this, scheme?
19:06	technomancy	they don't because they're hideous
19:06	bitemyapp	down with the obstructionists!
19:06	technomancy	haha
19:06	hiredman	no more hideous than (ns ...)
19:06	devn	ns is beautiful in its hideous-ness
19:06	Glenjamin	hrm, there's no reason the sandboxed version loading thingy has to take over :require in the ns block...
19:06	bitemyapp	(ns ...) Brown Shirts
19:06	devn	it's like a really beautiful wig
19:06	bitemyapp	NS. get it? NS. lol.
19:06	technomancy	well the main reason I'd foresee getting pushback is that ns is infamous for being overly-permissive
19:07	bitemyapp	devn: wigs creep me out. made riding the subway in brooklyn difficult.
19:07	hiredman	in order for this to be engineering, we need at least the veneer of evidence based decision making
19:07	technomancy	hiredman: this is art!
19:07	hiredman	technomancy: take your harmonikit and run
19:07	Glenjamin	wait hang on, (ns) technically lets you call any clojure.core form?
19:07	hyPiRion	yes
19:07	technomancy	Glenjamin: glorious, innit
19:08	bitemyapp	Glenjamin: da.
19:08	bitemyapp	"innit" (inc technomancy)
19:08	Glenjamin	would a 6-keyword guard really be that expensive?
19:08	bitemyapp	(inc technomancy)
19:08	lazybot	⇒ 85
19:08	Bronsa	I enjoy doing (ns .. (:alias c.c clojure.core)).
19:08	blr	wat
19:09	technomancy	I'm not sure whether you can call ns from ns though
19:09	Glenjamin	this nix scheme is genius
19:09	Glenjamin	encoding the dep tree into the directory name
19:09	bitemyapp	oh god making this lazy is going to require refactoring half the code
19:10	bitemyapp	I have to translate the carried mapping into a progressive reduction
19:10	technomancy	Glenjamin: http://p.hagelb.org/power.gif
19:10	bitemyapp	ffffffuuu
19:10	hiredman	(ns … (:refer-clojure :rename {+ - - +}])
19:10	bitemyapp	hiredman: that's a plus, not a minus.
19:10	bitemyapp	you can do the same thing in Haskell fyi.
19:10	technomancy	that's no moon
19:10	bitemyapp	nobody got my pun :(
19:12	bitemyapp	I wonder if I could dynamically prune the...no lets not go there.
19:12	bitemyapp	that way lies MADNESS
19:12	hyPiRion	technomancy: hmm yeah, (:ns bar) expands to (ns 'bar). Tricky
19:13	technomancy	hyPiRion: if anyone can do it, you or TimMc can
19:14	Glenjamin	bah, trying to shoehorn a defmulti into (ns) but can't seem to get the destructuring right
19:15	seangrove	HTML5 ui controls... I wish we had better primitives.
19:15	hyPiRion	technomancy: Well, you could do (:eval (ns bar)), that should work
19:15	technomancy	aha
19:16	bitemyapp	seangrove: that was the intent behind GWT, escaping reimplementation of widgets/functionality.
19:16	blr	oh god, don't mention GWT
19:16	Glenjamin	aha, (ns (:eval ...))
19:17	bitemyapp	blr: I didn't say it worked out well in that case :)
19:17	bitemyapp	Java isn't known for doing a good job with reusable code or DSLs.
19:17	seangrove	bitemyapp: Also the idea behind cappuccino.
19:17	blr	JSNI gave me PTSD
19:17	bitemyapp	seangrove: that was particularly egregious.
19:17	Glenjamin	dont worry, the W3C is going to get it right this time
19:17	Glenjamin	http://www.w3.org/TR/components-intro/
19:18	seangrove	bitemyapp: I thought it was lovely as an idea. Wish they had made it further, and lookin forward to a cljs company recreating and surpassing what they did.
19:18	bitemyapp	Glenjamin: trying to give me nightmares eh?
19:18	bitemyapp	seangrove: it was way too fat.
19:18	bitemyapp	seangrove: I'd like something like that, but way more lightweight and componentized.
19:18	seangrove	bitemyapp: Only for the time.
19:18	Glenjamin	in theory we have better primitives now
19:18	bitemyapp	no it's still really bad by today's standards.
19:18	Glenjamin	so it wouldn't be as fat today
19:18	seangrove	bitemyapp: What Glenjamin said.
19:18	bitemyapp	seangrove: I've used cappuccino and sproutcore based applications recently, they make my retina macbook pro overheat.
19:18	bitemyapp	Glenjamin: oh possibly.
19:18	Glenjamin	the shadow dom stuff is actually really interesting
19:19	bitemyapp	I still think the design is unsound.
19:19	hyPiRion	hey, hm
19:19	bitemyapp	I just want singular, reusable widgets.
19:19	bitemyapp	not an all-consuming desktop toolkit
19:19	hyPiRion	,(ns foo (:eval (println 10)))
19:19	clojurebot	10\n
19:19	bitemyapp	aka, I don't want to emulate an OS graphical toolkit in JS.
19:19	Glenjamin	the web was build for documents, and we're now stuck with some constraints from that
19:19	hyPiRion	why am I not surprised
19:19	technomancy	hyPiRion: sandbox escape route?
19:19	dsrx	web components?
19:19	Glenjamin	s/build/built/
19:19	bitemyapp	technomancy: WHOA, good call.
19:19	mtp	the web was rebuilt for advertisements about 10 years ago
19:20	technomancy	$eval (ns foo (:eval (println 10)))
19:20	mtp	everyone took this long to notice
19:20	Glenjamin	,(println 10)
19:20	clojurebot	10\n
19:20	technomancy	mtp: that's why I only communicate over email and IRC!
19:20	mtp	technomancy, :)
19:20	AimHere	Contrariwise, what was about the time that browsers helped users shut ads out
19:20	AimHere	*that was
19:20	seangrove	haha, suddenly everyone goes crazy with eval
19:20	Glenjamin	what can't you normally do in a sandbox?
19:20	mtp	when was that ever a time?
19:20	bitemyapp	Glenjamin: networking
19:20	hyPiRion	technomancy: apparently, although there probably are other ways to bypass it
19:20	seangrove	,(def x 10)
19:20	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
19:21	AimHere	SANBOX?
19:21	technomancy	hyPiRion: on clojurebot, sure. how about lazybot?
19:21	seangrove	,(ns foo (:eval (def x 10))) x
19:21	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
19:21	bitemyapp	,(ns foo (:eval (def x 10)))
19:21	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
19:21	Glenjamin	,(ns foo (:eval (def x 10)))
19:21	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
19:21	bitemyapp	,x
19:21	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: x in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0:0)>
19:21	hyPiRion	technomancy: is ns allowed there?
19:21	technomancy	no idea
19:21	Glenjamin	seems to be save
19:21	bitemyapp	nuts.
19:21	Glenjamin	safe even
19:21	hyPiRion	&(ns foo (:eval (println 'hello)))
19:21	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! class clojure.lang.Var is bad!
19:21	seangrove	,(ns foo (:eval '(def x 10))) x
19:21	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
19:22	bitemyapp	"sanbox"
19:22	seangrove	Well, glad to see sanbox survives to see another day
19:22	hyPiRion	technomancy: oh right, I think clojail is doing post-macroexpand checks
19:22	technomancy	of course
19:23	blr	just imagine clojurebot has a southern accent, then it makes sense.
19:24	technomancy	Raynes is laughing; "Those fools thought they could defeat me"
19:25	blr	anyone live, or have lived in north carolina? is it a nice state?
19:26	lgs32a	evening everyone
19:26	lgs32a	i have a question that i have often asked myself
19:26	seangrove	blr: Flew through the airport recently. Nothing particularly notable about it.
19:26	ibdknox	blr: depends very much on where you are
19:26	bitemyapp	blr: depends on what you're into. You're not going to get a deeply urban experience out of it.
19:26	technomancy	the first three conjes were in north carolina
19:26	lgs32a	when is it more idiomatic to use when vs if
19:26	bitemyapp	blr: if you like low cost of living, access to the outdoors, home ownership, etc it's a great place to live.
19:26	technomancy	lgs32a: I'm glad you asked!
19:26	bitemyapp	if you like super-dense cities, not so much.
19:26	blr	well, currently I'm in New Zealand, but the family is thinking about moving to the states
19:27	bitemyapp	~when
19:27	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
19:27	technomancy	lgs32a: when has an implicit do, so it signals to the reader that side effects are involved.
19:27	bitemyapp	~whentousewhen
19:27	clojurebot	excusez-moi
19:27	lgs32a	because, in traditional lisp, you use when for side-effects
19:27	lgs32a	yes exactly
19:27	hyPiRion	how was the venue compared to the one in North Carolina?
19:27	technomancy	lgs32a: exactly! but many clojure people do not know this, sadly.
19:27	ibdknox	blr: it's not a progressive place at all, it's pretty conservative
19:27	seangrove	lgs32a: Don't listen to technomancy, he blasphemes.
19:27	technomancy	it is our job to educate them
19:27	lgs32a	so because i often see this attitude in clojure: there is no else-clause, so lets use when
19:27	bitemyapp	wat.
19:27	hiredman	the n. carolina venue tended to feel like a ghost town, so it was like the whole place was dedicated to the conj
19:28	blr	ibdknox: yeah, I'm kind of prepared for that... NZ is pretty liberal
19:28	technomancy	protip: if you're less concerned about side-effects than CLers, you should reconsider your opinions
19:28	bitemyapp	I personally wouldn't mind living in NC, but I hate cities.
19:28	Glenjamin	,(doc when)
19:28	clojurebot	"([test & body]); Evaluates test. If logical true, evaluates body in an implicit do."
19:28	hiredman	"how do these resturants stay open? no one is here but people from the conj?"
19:28	lgs32a	and then i just read this article: https://metaphysicaldeveloper.wordpress.com/2013/11/18/idiomatic-clojure-with-lighttable/
19:28	Glenjamin	the docs could be more obvious
19:28	bitemyapp	hiredman: low cost of living and doing business :P
19:28	Glenjamin	"use to trigger side effects"
19:28	technomancy	lgs32a: kibit is wrong =(
19:29	lgs32a	and i wondered - wow so it must be different in clj
19:29	lgs32a	yea
19:29	Glenjamin	i admit i did pick it for the no-else-clause once, but weave jester reviewed and told me why
19:29	hyPiRion	lgs32a: yeah, that's not idiomatic use of `when`from my perspective
19:29	lgs32a	thanks for clearing that up
19:29	Glenjamin	so i'm now enlightened on the subject
19:29	technomancy	lgs32a: https://github.com/jonase/kibit/issues/2 <- basically wontfix'd =(
19:29	Glenjamin	in that example kibit is collapsing the do()
19:30	ibdknox	blr: having lived there most of my life: it's very humid, with mild winters, not a big tech hub by any means, but strong hard science in the triangle area, it's cheap to live there, but southern culture is likely going to be a bit of a shock if you're used to a liberal lifestyle
19:30	blr	ibdknox: I play banjo, so I'm hoping that will ingratiate me with the natives
19:30	lgs32a	technomance: interesting
19:30	lgs32a	technomancy: interesting
19:31	bitemyapp	blr: southern people are friendly in my experience
19:31	technomancy	lgs32a: it is a controversial topic and I'm doing my best to cover it quickly before I get yelled at by one of those when-for-return-values heretics
19:31	swarthy	blr: I live in N. Carolina. I currently live in Raleigh, but have lived briefly in Wilmington and visited several other cities in the area.
19:31	bitemyapp	it's only liberals from the city intentionally looking to pick a an ideological fight that seems to get anybody's hackles raised.
19:31	bitemyapp	but OTOH, most southerners I've interacted with were in the larger cities.
19:31	bitemyapp	I haven't been in the boonies much.
19:31	bitemyapp	except for in Ohio.
19:32	bitemyapp	blr: the humidity is pretty killer in the summer if you don't like heat.
19:32	blr	thanks for the comments, glad to hear they are mostly positive
19:32	bitemyapp	blr: I'm a relatively liberal person and would pick NC as a possible place to live once I can escape the bay area.
19:32	seangrove	technomancy: Heretics and blasphemers, I like the cool-headed framing of the issue :)
19:32	blr	yeah I think I would go spare living in SF
19:32	blr	or anywhere in the valley
19:33	bitemyapp	blr: I can't wait to leave and buy a house.
19:33	lgs32a	Does anybody know when the conj talks will be on YT?
19:33	technomancy	seangrove: speaking of getting hackles raised
19:33	bitemyapp	blr: I'm thinking mostly of moving to Austin, Seattle, or Portland at present.
19:34	blr	portland seems a lot like NZ, I could probably live there quite happily
19:34	bitemyapp	blr: so probably not NC, but NC I would be willing to consider if the aforementioned weren't so awesome :)
19:34	bitemyapp	blr: Probably so.
19:34	technomancy	portland is great
19:34	blr	there don't seem to be many software jobs though
19:34	technomancy	very sad that clojure/west won't be there for 2014
19:34	nDuff	Low cost of living, no shortage of work.
19:34	seangrove	technomancy: I was hoping it would be. Do you know where it'll be instead?
19:35	bitemyapp	nDuff: thanks, I'm trying to collect data.
19:35	technomancy	blr: per capita there are a lot I think
19:35	ibdknox	Seattle is by far my favorite place to live
19:35	bitemyapp	nDuff: why are you leaving Austin and where are you headed?
19:35	seangrove	Even Seattle would be acceptable.
19:35	bitemyapp	ibdknox: what'd you like about it?
19:35	blr	technomancy: in portland? interesting
19:35	technomancy	seangrove: they said at the conj it was going to be SF. not sure if that means in the city or in the area.
19:35	bitemyapp	well I have no excuse not to go now.
19:35	hiredman	ibdknox: the smallest big city
19:35	technomancy	blr: intel is headquartered outside portland
19:35	bitemyapp	too bad it'll be in SF though.
19:35	nDuff	bitemyapp: headed to Chicago. Austin doesn't work for my wife for medical reasons.
19:36	seangrove	technomancy: Ah, well, that's ok too then. Was hoping to have a chance to get back up to Portland, but I don't mind a good conf in this city, of course.
19:36	ibdknox	bitemyapp: very smart people, sane management, the greenest place I've ever been, amazing outdoor activities, it is incredibly beautiful, great food
19:36	bitemyapp	nDuff: good luck in Chicago, sadly there are some particulars to CHI that make it an absolute no-go.
19:36	technomancy	SF means a better water supply than san jose, which is relevant to my interests
19:36	nDuff	bitemyapp: (both weather, and lack of good transit services; to live without a car here, one needs to (1) be downtown, and (2) be able to bicycle)
19:36	Apage43	where does SF water come from?
19:36	bitemyapp	ibdknox: I'm rather fond of forests and trees, that's the main thing counting against Austin at present.
19:36	technomancy	(my interests being brewing coffee)
19:36	bitemyapp	but Seattle is already getting VERY expensive.
19:37	bitemyapp	house prices are headed north of $500k
19:37	ibdknox	bitemyapp: don't live directly in the city
19:37	Apage43	man I would like to see a tree
19:37	nDuff	bitemyapp: ...may I ask?
19:37	ibdknox	bitemyapp: from my apartment in redmond I was 1.5 hours from over 1500 different hikes
19:37	hyPiRion	technomancy: man, you and your coffee
19:37	bitemyapp	nDuff: I'm a fairly liberal, but that's really a euphemism for eclectic left-libertarian, I happen to be a fan of the 2nd amendment.
19:37	bitemyapp	nDuff: Chicago is absolute-no on that front.
19:37	technomancy	bitemyapp: in another, um, 10 years we'll have light rail to the north of the city
19:37	nDuff	bitemyapp: Ahh. Gotcha.
19:38	nDuff	bitemyapp: You'll find no shortage of politically like-minded folks in Austin.
19:38	hiredman	seattle has views everywhere since it is so hilly, ever time you crest a hill you are looking down at trees and water with mountains behind them
19:38	bitemyapp	nDuff: part of the reason I want to leave the bay area is so that I can own more than just my beretta and mosin.
19:38	bitemyapp	nDuff: uhm, not quite. Texas is conservative, not left-libertarian. We'll only agree on guns.
19:38	hiredman	technomancy is always an optimist
19:38	nDuff	bitemyapp: Austin isn't Texas.
19:38	blr	from what I've heard Austin is a bit different though
19:38	bitemyapp	I'd emphasize the LEFT part. It's not the same as the typical anarcho-capitalist libertarians you run into.
19:38	Apage43	bitemyapp: I thought I was more left than I was, then I moved to the bay area
19:39	technomancy	hiredman: heh yeah.. theoretically
19:39	bitemyapp	nDuff: oh I suppose so.
19:39	bitemyapp	Apage43: yeah I feel pretty conservative here.
19:39	bitemyapp	weird feeling.
19:39	bitemyapp	Apage43: I believe in property rights, the bill of rights, sane budgets, and the rule of law. I'm crazy like that.
19:39	Glenjamin	pfft, isn't all american politics basically right anyway? </troll>
19:40	nDuff	bitemyapp: ...see the notation in http://dieselsweeties.com/archive.php?s=1436
19:40	Apage43	I just want some GMO food to eat ;)
19:40	nDuff	bitemyapp: ...in general, Austin is liberal (far, far more so than the rest of the state), but still Texan enough that we like our guns.
19:40	bitemyapp	nDuff: sounds amenable to me then.
19:41	bitemyapp	I don't necessarily need to be surrounded by like minded people though, I just need my property and rights left alone.
19:41	nDuff	bitemyapp: shrug. You might disagree with the city council from time to time, then, but... shrug.
19:42	bitemyapp	nDuff: it's rather serious in SF. The confiscatory ordinance SF passed lets them slap you with a misdemeanor for having property that the State grandfathered.
19:42	blr	show me a town where people speak favourably of their city council ... :P
19:42	bitemyapp	nDuff: which is to say, they're ignoring state preemption.
19:42	bitemyapp	and they're getting away with it because picking on gun owners is free points in SF.
19:42	Glenjamin	anyway, i'm calling it a night
19:42	Glenjamin	thanks all for indulging my versioned-modules fantasy
19:43	bitemyapp	nDuff: are you headed to a Clojure gig in Chicago?
19:43	bitemyapp	`cbp`: w/b
19:43	bitemyapp	Glenjamin: cheers
19:43	Glenjamin	technomancy: am i right in thinking using (metaverse/require) outside of (ns) should "just work" ?
19:43	`cbp	bitemyapp: whoops that's just my other computer waking up :S
19:43	nDuff	bitemyapp: going to start looking actively for interesting ones starting at the beginning of December.
19:44	technomancy	Glenjamin: I think so
19:44	bitemyapp	nDuff: I think Groupon is the more well known employer of Clojure users?
19:44	technomancy	it's been ... two years?
19:44	nDuff	bitemyapp: Not happening.
19:44	bitemyapp	haha, okay. :)
19:44	nDuff	bitemyapp: I was early staff at one of their competitors. One of my very good friends, founder of same, would disown me if I even considered working there.
19:45	bitemyapp	nDuff: understood.
19:45	blr	think I'd rather contract hemorrhagic fever than work for an SV startup again.
19:45	nDuff	(also, said competitor was started to have a more sane variant of Groupon's business model; suffice to say that the version they're running is... not as solid as one would like; the ratio of customer acquisition costs to purchases made over customer life time is not what you'd like it to be).
19:46	Glenjamin	i'm not sure if i'm missing something - but it doesn't look like the version number is used in the part which finds the resource
19:48	bitemyapp	oh yes, my old nemesis, "is older than database basis" how nice to see you.
19:48	coventry	nDuff: What are you working on? Sounds interesting.
19:48	bitemyapp	nDuff: what's the data model like?
19:50	nDuff	coventry: pondering something similar to ekeko (a core.logic-based query interface to the bytecode generated by a project's compilation), but w/o the Eclipse dependency and capable of working on bigger datasets.
19:50	nDuff	coventry: just exploratory at this point.
19:52	nDuff	bitemyapp: jimple is a representation of Java bytecode as typed 3-tuples.
19:55	benedikt	anybody here have experience in writing android applications with lein-droid, neko and clojure?
19:55	seangrove	Hrm, doing quite a bit of filtering on data client side, basically recreating a relational interface... wonder if I should bring in core.logic in cljs here...
19:56	bitemyapp	seangrove: use datalog!
19:56	coventry	nDuff: Huh, what do you use something like that for?
19:56	bitemyapp	coventry: nicer processing of JVM bytecode from Clojure.
19:56	seangrove	bitemyapp: Client-side? I'd like to for its composability though. Might be a good idea
19:58	seangrove	Someone, please, please, create a nice core.async html widget library. Please.
19:58	seangrove	I really don't want to.
19:58	blr	seangrove: but you must.
19:59	bitemyapp	seangrove: you've clearly been nominated for the job of making an async widget toolkit.
19:59	bitemyapp	gg gl hf
19:59	bitemyapp	Can't Tom Sawyer me into this one, I don't enjoy working in the DOM that much.
19:59	seangrove	We need a indiegogo campaign. I'd donate.
20:00	bitemyapp	I'd donate and then cringe.
20:00	`cbp	i vote for seangrove
20:01	blr	seangrove? I heard he was working on a core.async widget library
20:01	arohner	bitemyapp: Austin has trees. Not like the redwoods, but it has a fair amount of green
20:01	seangrove	bitemyapp: You know how reliable arohner is, I'd take it with a grain of salt.
20:01	arohner	:-)
20:01	bitemyapp	seangrove: why are you trying to make everyone seem unreliable? :P
20:01	bitemyapp	first me, now arohner.
20:02	seangrove	I'd say that's a pretty select group.
20:02	bitemyapp	arohner: how does your "commute" to SF generally work? Do you visit a week at a time periodically or something?
20:02	bitemyapp	seangrove: I am large and contain multitudes.
20:02	arohner	2.5 weeks or so, yeah
20:02	bitemyapp	arohner: how often?
20:02	bitemyapp	sorry for prying, was just wondering how you made it work.
20:02	arohner	it's generally 3weeks/2weeks. Hoping to get it to 2/2 next year
20:02	arohner	no worries
20:02	bitemyapp	Thanks
20:03	arohner	Our team is also > 1/3rd remote, so that makes it easier
20:03	arohner	actually, the devs are half remote
20:04	bitemyapp	arohner: planning for remoteness upfront helps a lot, yeah.
20:05	bitemyapp	my company is starting to accommodate remote workers but it's slow going and I'm trying to figure out how to work with it as I plan for escaping the Bay.
20:05	akurilin	bitemyapp, where are you going?
20:07	bitemyapp	akurilin: nowhere presently, which is part of the problem.
20:07	bitemyapp	akurilin: I'm considering Austin, Seattle, and Portland right now.
20:07	akurilin	I can vouch for Seattle.
20:08	bitemyapp	Save for the handful of people I really like in the programming community here, I really strongly dislike the bay area.
20:08	bitemyapp	akurilin: cool, what'd you like about it?
20:08	technomancy	bitemyapp: you've read gilesgoatboy's screed on it, right?
20:09	arohner	technomancy: link? this sounds relevant to my interests
20:09	technomancy	he's gone a bit off th deep end since, but this one was classic; lemme see
20:09	akurilin	bitemyapp, I lived on Capitol Hill for a year or two, it just had a very friendly, safe and still anti-establishment atmosphere. You can get anything from the best coffee to the heaviest metal bands in the range of a few blocks :)
20:10	bitemyapp	technomancy: link the post?
20:10	bitemyapp	technomancy: I might've, but I can't find the post to confirm whether or not I'd read it.
20:10	bitemyapp	akurilin: yeah I actually happen to be really into cascadian black metal.
20:10	bitemyapp	akurilin: which are based out of washington and oregon obviously.
20:10	technomancy	clojurebot: never hate only ever destroy is http://gilesbowkett.blogspot.com/2008/05/never-hate-only-ever-destroy.html
20:10	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
20:10	technomancy	bitemyapp, arohner ^
20:10	akurilin	bitemyapp, Agalloch are our shining beacons in one those subgenres :)
20:11	akurilin	bitemyapp, they're Portland specifically.
20:11	technomancy	^ or anyone else really; highly recommended =)
20:12	bitemyapp	akurilin: yeah Agalloch is one of my favorite all-time bands.
20:12	technomancy	it's long though. not yegge-long, but a bit long
20:13	technomancy	I think his point about whuffie is ill-founded though; part of the point of that novel seems to be how insane it is to narrow things down to a one-dimensional number.
20:13	technomancy	still a good read
20:13	blr	bitemyapp: wolves in the throne room are another good west coast band imo
20:14	bitemyapp	blr: another favorite of mine :)
20:14	akurilin	blr, bitemyapp rishloo are Tacoma-based, incredible art prog-rock if you're into that
20:14	blr	cool, don't know them, will check it out
20:14	akurilin	bitemyapp, I've also yet to have the bay area grow on me, I don't know why it's not clicking
20:15	blr	have been listening to Panopticon's Kentucky which is 'blue-grass black metal'. it makes no sense, but somehow works
20:15	akurilin	guess the $3500/1br really sours things for a normal person, in addition to how little you get from the city.
20:15	bitemyapp	akurilin: NYC was a better trade. $1500 for a 3 bedroom apartment in Astoria, Queens, 20 minute subway ride to Manhattan.
20:15	bitemyapp	akurilin: still don't want to live in NYC though.
20:16	akurilin	bitemyapp, sounds like a steal!
20:16	blr	well, NYC has rent controlled areas.. is that the case in SF?
20:16	bitemyapp	akurilin: it was great, split the rent three ways. Programmer salary + $550 a month in rent + living in NYC == PARTY ALL THE TIIIIIME
20:16	bitemyapp	blr: my apartment wasn't rent controlled.
20:17	bitemyapp	blr: and SF has rent control too.
20:17	bitemyapp	$1500 a month for a three bedroom was market rate, not rent controlled.
20:17	akurilin	bitemyapp, yeah I can't even imagine :)
20:17	bitemyapp	rent control is part of SF's problem.
20:17	blr	ah okay.. I lived in Park Slope for a while, it was a decent enough neighbourhood, but NYC isn't a great place to have family
20:17	akurilin	rent control really screws up the newcomers.
20:18	bitemyapp	blr: I definitely don't want to go back.
20:18	blr	miss the Hatian food though, dayam.
20:18	akurilin	bitemyapp, what was wrong with NYC? I always considered living there at some point, but I have 0 experience with the place outside of a touristy visit :\|
20:19	blr	akurilin: it's a stressful environment generally, but if you're young and don't have any attachments it's fun.
20:19	blr	personally I found taking the train every day kind of draining
20:20	amacdougall	I'm typing this from 24th & 2nd in Manhattan, and I can confirm that it seems like a really tough place to raise kids. If you get lucky on rent, though, it's a great place to experience.
20:20	akurilin	amacdougall, so if you're not big on kids, pretty much everything else falls into place?
20:21	amacdougall	Since you're in #clojure, I'm sure you won't have a problem with the rent, so yeah.
20:21	blr	yeah, it's an amazing city... but you have to like city living. That being said, upstate new york is beautiful
20:21	amacdougall	It's worth trying.
20:22	technomancy	eh; just because you can afford something doesn't mean doing so fits into your values.
20:26	coventry	Yeah, upstate NY is beautiful. Not a hotbed of tech development, though.
20:26	dsrx	there are a few defense contractors around buffalo
20:27	dsrx	protecting us from the canadian menace across lake ontario, no doubt
20:27	blr	those shifty canadians...
20:28	coventry	There's a few startups and a bit of web development in Ithaca, too.
20:32	bbloom	people don't realize just how friggin big NY is
20:34	swarthy	bbloom: I just had a friend move to NYC. He said he doesn't think he can see everything there in his lifetime, that was his explanation when I asked him how big it 'felt'.
20:35	bbloom	swarthy: yeah, sooo manhattan is only 22ish square miles
20:35	amacdougall	I've been here six years, and I feel like I keep finding new things I like about it. And I take the high rent as a tradeoff for high availability of high-paying jobs. ...maybe with a slight tax.
20:36	bbloom	swarthy: it feels huge b/c it's so dense, but NY state is genuinely quite huge
20:36	bbloom	also people are like "why do they call it long island? how long is it"
20:37	mikerod	,(apply merge-with concat (for [i (range 4000)] {:a [i]}))
20:37	clojurebot	#<StackOverflowError java.lang.StackOverflowError>
20:37	swarthy	bbloom: yeah that same friend is from Long Island, he complains about that same comment.
20:37	mikerod	:(
20:37	bbloom	it's like a 3 hour drive long :-P
20:37	mikerod	I just learned about the StackOverflowing potential for lazy seqs today
20:38	mikerod	merge-with concat is what got me
20:38	bbloom	swarthy: "If it were a U.S. state, Long Island would rank 13th in population (after Virginia) and first in population density." -- Wikipedia
20:38	swarthy	bbloom: and that is why he left lol.
20:40	amacdougall	So, non-NYC-related question -- I'm trying to set up some ClojureScript unit tests, and I understand that if my test code is going to have access to my webapp code, I need to specify :source ["src/cljs" "test/src/cljs"] in the cljsbuild setup. But of course the webapp has some namespaces that do a bunch of DOM stuff, and the node.js test runner fails on those before it gets a chance to detect my actual tests. Is there a way of compiling only certain
20:41	blr	amacdougall: cut off after "compiling only certain"
20:41	amacdougall	...only certain namespaces into a file? Am I missing something fundamental?
20:41	amacdougall	(didn't realize the message limit was so short, but maybe it's my client)
20:42	amacdougall	Hm, maybe this will help: https://github.com/emezeske/lein-cljsbuild/wiki/Troubleshooting-build-issues
20:42	hiredman	amacdougall: so the way I generall structure cljs stuff is I have an exported main function, which I call from a <script></script> stub in an html template
20:43	hiredman	which, in this case, you would move all your side effecting dom stuff out of the top level and in to functions
20:43	amacdougall	hiredman: That's a good idea. I was thinking it might be smarter to have a single entry point function I call explicitly from "outside" of the webapp code.
20:44	amacdougall	hiredman: My stuff is already namespaced, but maybe not as strictly as necessary.
20:45	amacdougall	Thanks for the tip!
20:48	bitemyapp	what is good that has come from Long Island?
20:48	bitemyapp	serious question.
20:48	amacdougall	Oysters?
20:48	bitemyapp	not really specific to LI
20:48	arohner	bitemyapp: both of my parents :-p
20:48	amacdougall	Bluepoint Toasted Lager. Aesop Rock, if you're into him.
20:49	bitemyapp	arohner: they don't have that accent do they?
20:49	bbloom	me.
20:49	egosum	Gatsby
20:49	arohner	not anymore
20:50	bitemyapp	When I lived in NYC I used to get really annoyed when people assumed the LI accent was from NYC
20:50	bitemyapp	and would then perform the accent to my face when asking me (NYC resident) why I didn't have that accent.
20:51	arohner	I grew up in Texas. You'd be amazed the number of times I got the "but why don't you have an accent?"
20:51	bitemyapp	Glenjamin has inspired me to write the scariest reduces in Clojure-land/
20:51	bbloom	arohner: where in texas?
20:52	bitemyapp	arohner: that's one nice thing about being from ohio, we're actually the standard for neutral newscaster American English.
20:52	arohner	bbloom: Dallas originally. now I'm in Austin (half the time)
20:52	bitemyapp	nobody expects anything of us, unless it's Southeastern Ohio.
20:52	bitemyapp	in which case, wash is "worsh"
20:52	bbloom	arohner: so that probably explains the lack of accent, right? i wonder if folks from Austin or whatever should just say "I'm from Blue Texas"
20:52	bbloom	:-P
20:53	bitemyapp	calling Austin blue does California a serious injustice
20:53	bitemyapp	SF Bay Area is bluer than a suffocating smurf.
20:55	arohner	bbloom: meh, there are all kinds. I used to work with a programmer who grew up in Austin. He had no accent, unless he used any of the words #{"mother", "gun", "truck"...}
20:55	arohner	he'd switch accents in the middle of a sentence
20:55	bbloom	heh
20:56	seangrove	bitemyapp: Just SF and some part of LA though, the rest is overwhelmingly red
20:56	seangrove	Typical civiliation vs rural divide.
20:56	bitemyapp	arohner: that's pretty funny
20:57	blr	seangrove: SD is fairly conservative eh?
20:57	bitemyapp	seangrove: except for all the LA suburbs, Marin County, Humboldt, Sacramento....
20:57	arohner	seangrove: 'rest' by area, not by population
20:57	arohner	http://www.270towin.com/states/California
20:57	bitemyapp	seangrove: Santa Cruz...
20:58	bitemyapp	seangrove: http://www.politico.com/2012-election/results/president/california/
20:58	seangrove	bitemyapp: Pockets of small areas and relatively large populations
20:58	bitemyapp	yeah but if one dude in a 1,000 sq mi area votes for Romney, does that really make the whole area meaningfully red? :P
20:58	seangrove	I just meant that 1-2 hours in any direction and you'll be in a red district
20:59	seangrove	bitemyapp: No, it just makes the socially pleasant areas very limited.
20:59	bitemyapp	how people vote doesn't make them socially pleasant or unpleasant, in my humble opinion.
20:59	bitemyapp	unless you really thrive on political conversation. Then yes, that would be problematic if you thrive on political conversation where nobody disagrees with you.
21:00	seangrove	bitemyapp: Yeah, not worried about voting behavior, though it's correlated. More generally speaking about social mores, shared ambitions and ideals, and topics of conversation.
21:00	bitemyapp	I don't really mind discussing politics with people who vote or think differently from me and this tendency to avoid people that think differently is bothersome.
21:00	bitemyapp	seangrove: I guess? I run into plenty of ho-hum folk in the bay area.
21:00	bitemyapp	They represent the majority of the population definitionally. They have to. We can't all be super-motivated hacker-preneurs.
21:00	seangrove	bitemyapp: Sure, and it's still beating the averages.
21:01	Bronsa	seangrove: out of curiosity, did you found out what caused that AOT crash involving tools.reader you were telling me ~1 month ago?
21:01	bitemyapp	Learning to enjoy the company of a variety of people, muggles included, is probably one of the best things that came out of being from ohio and growing up in a modest environment.
21:01	seangrove	Bronsa: Including austin in the profile did it
21:01	seangrove	Bronsa: https://github.com/cemerick/austin/issues/23
21:02	seangrove	bitemyapp: I grew up in a small/rural town as well, didn't particularly enjoy it, and still don't care to go back.
21:02	bitemyapp	I don't either, but the problem for me wasn't the people that were there.
21:02	bitemyapp	It was the people that weren't
21:03	seangrove	Hrm, could be.
21:03	bitemyapp	I prefer not to gripe about the people that do exist in such places, I think it's unfairly negative to expect people to live up to your uncommon expectations. I'd rather think about how to seek out and meet people whose company I enjoy.
21:03	bitemyapp	so rather than "contrasting" normal people with the exceptional types I really like, I just focus on talking to as many hackers as I can.
21:04	arohner	bitemyapp: that might be the most positive thing I think I've ever heard you say :-)
21:04	bitemyapp	which I had to do, because I was out in the boonies and my only link to the outside world was IRC.
21:04	arohner	bitemyapp: yes, damning with faint praise :-)
21:04	bitemyapp	arohner: the happiest memories of my life had zero hackers in the room.
21:04	coventry	Hey, bitemyapp said nice things about troncle the other day. :-)
21:04	bitemyapp	arohner: the Very happiest memories were card games and dinner with friends and family. I was the only programmer present.
21:05	bitemyapp	I love my work, I love programming, and I love talking to hackers, but the deep and lasting memories of my life haven't come from that.
21:05	bitemyapp	I perfectly happy being around "normal" people.
21:05	bitemyapp	no intent to damn with faint praise. it's just differentiated needs.
21:06	bitemyapp	case in point, you wouldn't expect your spouse to satisfy all your needs WRT talking about programming, so why would you expect your immediate surroundings to always be able to do that at the drop of a hat?
21:06	bitemyapp	I want the people in my town/area to be nice. That's it.
21:07	Bronsa	seangrove: so it's not tools.reader's fault after all, I'm feeling better now :)
21:07	seangrove	Bronsa: Maybe, maybe ;)
21:07	lgs32a	i remember there was an excellent bitset / bitvector library on github but I can't find it anymore. Does anybody know which one it could have been?
21:07	bitemyapp	having to load Austin to prevent an exception in tools.reader is kinda strange.
21:07	bitemyapp	lgs32a: ztellman?
21:07	lgs32a	bitemyapp: i think that was it. let me see
21:07	bitemyapp	if it's unusual and a little performance oriented it's probably a ztellman library.
21:08	bitemyapp	if it's a bad idea it's definitely a ztellman library.
21:08	bitemyapp	lgs32a: https://github.com/ztellman/immutable-bitset
21:09	lgs32a	bitemyapp: awesome. truely awesome. thanks
21:09	bitemyapp	lgs32a: I'm serious though, anytime you want something questionable/weird/performance-oriented, check ztellman's github first.
21:09	Bronsa	bitemyapp: it's actually the other way around if I'm not reading it correctly. loading Austin causes an AOT exception loading c.t.r.reader_types.Reader
21:10	bitemyapp	Bronsa: egads. is he smashing the namespace?
21:10	amacdougall	Bah... it looks like the mere act of having a namespace which includes a library which uses Domina causes Domina to fire off all its feature detection functions, which all fail in a node.js test runner.
21:11	amacdougall	So I'm back to the original problem of compiling a test js file with only certain namespaces. I can do it, it will just be a much more verbose cljsbuild config.
21:12	amacdougall	I don't think it's really justified yet. My app is small enough that I can write black-box functional tests and call it good enough.
21:12	Bronsa	bitemyapp: I have absolutely no idea what Austin is doing, I'd guess it might have something to do with messing the classloader given the error
21:12	bitemyapp	amacdougall: write the black box functional tests and call it good enough.
21:12	amacdougall	Wise advice! :)
21:13	bitemyapp	java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.AssertionError: Assert failed: (zero? (.getE d)) ;; clearly a sign to just call it a night.
21:13	blr	amacdougall: I've enjoyed using Kerodon for integration tests
21:14	bitemyapp	amacdougall: anecdotally, I've heard dommy is superior to domina.
21:14	bitemyapp	amacdougall: which may or may not indirectly solve your problems. I've also heard good things about Kerodon.
21:14	bitemyapp	seangrove: dommy > domina right?
21:14	seangrove	bitemyapp: For me, without a doubt.
21:15	blr	dommy has nicer event handling imo
21:20	rads	I might have found a bug in core.async: http://cljsfiddle.net/fiddle/rads.close-pipe
21:21	rads	when you (pipe c1 c2), c2 should get closed at the same time as c1, but in this example it doesn't get closed
21:21	rads	when you run the example, it logs 42 to console
21:22	arohner	can slingshot match on a nested map?
21:23	arohner	(catch [:foo true :bar {:baz true}] t) ?
21:23	arohner	using kv destructuring, I know about fns and other options
21:25	hiredman	arohner: slingshot must do a = on the key
21:26	arohner	hiredman: ty
21:26	arohner	catch (-> % ...) t isn't bad at all
21:26	hiredman	not really a match per se
21:27	arohner	supporting get-in rather than get might be interesting
21:27	arohner	(catch [:foo true [:bar :baz] true] t...
21:27	arohner	hrm, maybe not
21:27	arohner	that's a little gnarly
21:30	bitemyapp	arohner: if you wanted to Cali that up a bit, you could even say it was "gnar-gnar"
21:31	TEttinger	bitemyapp, remember the carlyfornia site for carly fiorina's governer bid?
21:33	bitemyapp	TEttinger: no, I try to not be stateful.
21:36	bitemyapp	zomg tests passing
21:36	TEttinger	ah, it was a really poorly-thought-out webpage for her campaign. turns out it was for senator
21:36	bitemyapp	going to go jump off the bay bridge now
21:36	TEttinger	bitemyapp, don't forget your water wings
21:37	bitemyapp	TEttinger: the lack of a type system is starting to make me really mad.
21:37	TEttinger	have you started submitting lengthy patches to core.typed ?
21:37	bitemyapp	I spent a third or maybe even a half of my entire workday today to the accumulated type errors.
21:37	bitemyapp	TEttinger: the verbosity of core.typed is sanity-destroying right now.
21:37	bitemyapp	I'm hoping/waiting for it to become less severe.
21:40	TEttinger	perhaps you want a full-program analyzer of some sort? that can "read the code?" I think it exists, it's called a second programmer, but it's very expensive and not very reliable
21:41	blr	huh, this bob martin presentation about the 'last pl' is interesting, suggesting that major innovations are primarily about restriction
21:42	blr	resonates with what rhickey was saying about instruments in a way
21:45	TEttinger	blr, indeed, it is an odd thing how the most restrictive languages can be productive and popular, but only on the tasks those restrictions don't make difficult. Java is more restricted than C++, but it has less you need to learn to write more-than-the-basics programs. Clojure restricts reader macros (supposedly they don't exist, but we have seen them here) because they _can_ provide too much power to shoot yourself in
21:46	seangrove	I should probably just build this all on top of bootstrap 3's components to start with. Fastest way to "bootstrap" it...
21:46	blr	TEttinger: and the restrictions around mutable state are a big one
21:46	blr	seangrove: in the end, everyone resigns themself to bootstrap
21:46	seangrove	But goddamn, the in-place mutation...
21:46	seangrove	Wasn't pedestal supposed to come out with some ui components?
21:47	blr	seangrove: I've been waiting to hear more about pedestal 0.3 - was there anything at the conj about the roadmap?
21:48	seangrove	blr: Seemed like they were hoping to get something out, but probably didn't quite make it looking at their twitter
21:48	TEttinger	I don't see many DSLs in Java, like you see in clojure, and clojure DSLs are less... "natural" or "organic" than some Common Lisp ones I am aware of (since common lisp has reader macros, you can make code look un-lisp-y). but, clojure dsls are more compatible with each other than total alterations to a language's syntax
21:48	blr	ah okay, rkneufeld mentioned 0.3 will potentially make 'crud' easier, which while not exactly thrilling, is pragmatic
21:53	seangrove	Side-effecting functions everywhere.
21:54	seangrove	"Cannon to right of them, Cannon to left of them, into the valley of Death he charged..."
21:59	coventry	The silence about pedestal at the conj was a little surprising, actually. I missed tbaldridge's talk unfortunately, so it may have been mentioned there, but otherwise it didn't get much of a mention during the conference-proper.
22:03	xeqi	coventry: they can only have a limited number of topics coming out of cognitect before it is too exclusive, (core.async, fressian, 2 "keynotes", and harmonikit, so 6/21 this year)
22:04	xeqi	and apparently I can't add
22:04	hiredman	two keynotes?
22:05	xeqi	hiredman: eh, I'd put Hand Tools and Moon in that general category
22:13	jeremyheiler	though, i'd say harmonikit doesn't really count since it's a hobby non-work project
22:16	jeremyheiler	then again, the "keynotes" weren't very work specific either. meh. lol
22:16	jeremyheiler	but. point stands, gotta let others talk
22:18	bitemyapp	TEttinger: I prefer Clojure DSLs. They're usually just data.
22:18	bitemyapp	data > DSL
22:18	TEttinger	yes, me too
22:19	bitemyapp	TEttinger: Haskell has a similar attitude, DSLs are usually just type-safe interpreters that take data.
22:23	bbloom	bitemyapp: i write so many things that look like interpreters now
22:23	bbloom	bitemyapp: have my code can be summarized as (->> input linearize (reduce init step))
22:24	bbloom	s/have/half
22:24	bitemyapp	bbloom: you write weird things though.
22:25	majyk	is anyone here using the vsClojure plugin for Visual Studio and Clojure-CLR? It seems to be broken out of the box for me on VS 2013.
22:26	bbloom	bitemyapp: true story
22:26	bitemyapp	majyk: don't use ClojureCLR and expect anything to work.
22:26	bitemyapp	~ClojureCLR is don't use ClojureCLR and expect anything to work out of the box.
22:26	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
22:26	majyk	haha
22:26	bitemyapp	~ClojureCLR
22:26	clojurebot	ClojureCLR is don't use ClojureCLR and expect anything to work out of the box.
22:26	bitemyapp	~botsnack
22:26	clojurebot	Thanks, but I prefer chocolate
22:29	valmon	In clojurescript if you need to use a counter is an atom the correct way of doing it?
22:31	bitemyapp	ucb: it's time.
22:31	bitemyapp	ucb: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFY0hYEqQQw
22:33	valmon	I'm trying to replicate the following javascript code: https://gist.github.com/4290d8cfccb9fe5258be
22:38	bbloom	valmon: are you using jquery or a wrapper in cljs?
22:39	bbloom	https://github.com/ibdknox/jayq for example ?
22:39	valmon	I'd like to use domina to do this
22:39	seangrove	get/update-in are just wonderful, so happy to have them in cljs
22:39	bbloom	valmon: ok domina works too
22:40	bbloom	valmon: to do something like .children().clone().slice(...
22:40	bbloom	you'd want something like the -> macro
22:40	bbloom	(doc ->)
22:40	clojurebot	"([x] [x form] [x form & more]); Threads the expr through the forms. Inserts x as the second item in the first form, making a list of it if it is not a list already. If there are more forms, inserts the first form as the second item in second form, etc."
22:40	bbloom	and beyond that, it's probably a pretty straight forward port
22:40	bbloom	each -> doseq
22:40	bbloom	etc
22:43	valmon	yea I was thinking that this could be done with map with a function that changes the value when the regex matches the thing with the counter and what to do with the current name value hurt my head badly though
22:43	valmon	though thinking about it now I should be able to use let
22:44	bbloom	valmon: it's somewhat unfortunate that the DOM ruins some clojure fun magic happy times by being so imperative
22:45	valmon	yea
22:45	bbloom	for example clojure.core/map is lazy, so it's really different than forEach for jquery's each: so you have to use doseq
22:45	valmon	awww it never would have worked anyway?
22:46	valmon	well im glad I asked
22:51	seangrove	so, so, so goddamn imperative.
22:52	seangrove	Welp, time to drink and try to think of ways to push the imperative-ness out to the shell.
23:08	bitemyapp	seangone: stateful code gettin' ya down?
23:08	bitemyapp	ah, he left. bugger.
23:10	amalloy	by the way, technomancy, http://java-performance.info/changes-to-string-java-1-7-0_06/ will make you happy
23:22	rads	hey everyone, I made a port of core.async to regular javascript using ES6 generators. check it out here: https://github.com/rads/csp.js
23:43	hammerandtongs	great idea rads
23:43	hammerandtongs	no alt! ?
23:44	rads	oh, alts is in there. just forgot to list it in the README. thanks :)
23:45	hammerandtongs	:D
23:45	hammerandtongs	go select is one of my favorites things
23:45	hammerandtongs	excellent
23:46	rads	there we go, fixed
23:47	rads	the example in the readme uses alts
23:48	rads	no alt! because it's a macro :(
23:49	rads	though if you want to go all the way, sweet.js support might be possible in the future